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嗨。
Hi.
我是乔希·海诺，《纽约时报》专职摄影师，负责报道气候变化相关内容。
I'm Josh Haynor, and I'm a staff photographer at The New York Times covering climate change.
多年来，我们脑海中总会浮现北极熊漂浮在冰块上的画面。
For years, we've sort of imagined this picture of a polar bear floating on a piece of ice.
这些就是与气候变化相关联的典型影像。
Those have been the images associated with climate change.
我的使命是寻找那些能展现气候变化如何实时影响我们世界的故事。
My challenge is to find stories that show you how climate change is affecting our world right now.
若您想支持我们在《纽约时报》气候与环境部门开展的这类新闻报道，请通过官网或客户端订阅。
If you wanna support the kind of journalism that we're working on here on the climate and environment desk at The New York Times, please subscribe on our website or our app.
这里是《纽约时报》，我是迈克尔·比尔巴罗。
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Bilbaro.
这里是《每日新闻》。
This is The Daily.
周二，调查罗伯和米歇尔·雷纳死亡案的检察官表示，他们计划以一级谋杀罪起诉这对夫妇的儿子尼克。
On Tuesday, prosecutors investigating the death of Rob and Michelle Reiner said they planned to charge the couple's son, Nick, with first degree murder.
朱莉娅·雅各布斯将为我们揭示好莱坞传奇人物死亡事件的新发现，而韦斯利·莫里斯将解析为何雷纳的多部作品能成为史上最受喜爱的电影。
Julia Jacobs on what we're learning about the death of a Hollywood legend and Wesley Morris on why so many of Reiner's films are among the most beloved movies ever made.
今天是12月17日，星期三。
It's Wednesday, December 17.
朱莉娅，感谢你今天能来。
Julia, appreciate you coming in today.
谢谢邀请。
Thanks for having me.
首先我想说——或许这显而易见——罗伯·雷纳与妻子米歇尔的死亡是一起极其骇人听闻的悲剧。
I just wanna say at the outset, perhaps this is obvious, but the death of Rob Reiner and his wife, Michelle, is a very gruesome and tragic situation.
我们不想在本次对话中过多纠缠这个案件。
And we do not wanna linger on it for a long time in this conversation.
事实上，我希望我们根本无需过多讨论它。
In fact, I hope we don't have to linger on it much at all.
但我认为我们应当简要讨论一下目前已知的事件经过。
But I do think we should briefly talk about what we know at this point about what actually happened.
你说得对。
You're right.
这完全是一场悲剧，目前还有许多疑问。
It's an absolute tragedy, and there are a lot of questions right now.
目前已知的是，周日晚上警方接到报警前往罗伯·莱纳位于洛杉矶布伦特伍德社区的住所。
But what we do know is that on Sunday evening, the authorities were called to Rob Reiner's home in Brentwood, a neighborhood in Los Angeles.
最初公布的信息是屋内发现两具尸体。
And the first information that came out was that there were two deceased individuals inside.
警方公布了死者年龄，但最初没有确认身份。
And they listed the ages, but not initially the identities.
不过年龄大致与好莱坞导演罗伯·莱纳及其妻子米歇尔·辛格·莱纳相符，后者是摄影师兼制片人。
But the ages matched up roughly with those of Rob Reiner, the Hollywood director, and his wife, Michelle Singer Reiner, who is a photographer and a producer.
周日深夜，他们的儿子尼克被捕。
And later that night, on Sunday night, their son Nick was arrested.
最终，警方表示他们正在调查他在父母死亡事件中的角色。
And eventually, police said they were investigating his role in their deaths.
没错。
Right.
这真是个令人震惊的消息。
Which was a shocking piece of information.
是的。
Yes.
然后在周二，检方宣布他们打算以两项一级谋杀罪起诉尼克·雷纳。
And then on Tuesday, prosecutors announced that they intended to charge Nick Reiner with two counts of first degree murder.
对。
Right.
这使得一个孩子杀害自己双亲的可怕场景正式进入了司法程序。
Making very official this genuinely horrible scenario in which a child had killed both of his parents.
确实如此。
Correct.
儿子尼克·雷纳有长期记录在案的吸毒史。
And the son, Nick Reiner, had a long documented history of drug addiction.
而且，你知道，这个故事已经流传多年了。
And, you know, that story had been out there for years.
他从青少年时期就开始挣扎。
He had struggled since he was a teenager.
他多次进出戒毒所。
He had been in and out of rehab.
当他不愿待在父母安排的戒毒所时，曾几度无家可归。
He had gone through bouts of homelessness when he didn't wanna be in the rehab that his parents wanted him to be in.
但他最终回到了家，开始住在父母家的客房里。
But he eventually made his way back home and started living in his parents' guesthouse.
嗯。
Mhmm.
据我所知，他们有一个关系非常紧密、温暖的家庭。
And what I'm told is they had a very tight knit, warm household.
他们经常在一起共度时光。
They spent a lot of time together.
事实上，周六晚上，我的一些同事被告知罗伯·雷纳和尼克·雷纳在柯南·奥布莱恩家参加圣诞派对。
And in fact, on Saturday night, some of my colleagues were told that Rob Reiner and Nick Reiner were at the house of Conan O'Brien for a Christmas party.
就在前一天晚上。
The night before.
就在前一天晚上。
The night before.
据我所知，有人告诉我的同事，罗伯·莱纳曾对他儿子的行为发表过评论，大意是'你不能这样行事'。
And that, you know, one person told my colleague that Rob Reiner said something about his son's behavior, something to the effect of you can't act this way.
而就在罗伯和妻子米歇尔被发现在家中遭刺身亡的前一晚——据称凶手正是尼克。
And this was the night before Rob and his wife Michelle were found stabbed to death, allegedly by Nick.
此后我们不得不面对的事实是：这位好莱坞巨擘，这位极其成功且具有影响力的导演兼制片人——他本人曾以摆脱父亲阴影而闻名——却如你所说，据称死于亲生儿子之手。
And what we all had to reckon with thereafter was that this huge force in Hollywood, this enormously successful and influential director and producer who himself had quite famously escaped the shadow of his own father, had allegedly, as you said, been killed by his own son.
不知你能否为我们讲述莱纳的故事，他是如何走到今天这一步的？
And I wonder if you can tell us that story of Reiner and how he became what he became.
在罗伯·莱纳的悲剧性死讯传出后，所有人都不由自主地开始回顾他的职业生涯。
So after the news of Rob Reiner's tragic death, everyone automatically started reliving his career.
而他经常谈及的一个话题就是他的父亲卡尔·莱纳。
And something that he talked about a lot is his father, Carl Reiner.
他是二十世纪电视界的泰斗级人物。
He was a giant of twentieth century television.
他帮助定义了电视喜剧这一艺术形式。
He helped define the medium of television comedy.
他身兼演员、编剧和导演多重身份。
He was a performer, a writer, director.
他创作了史上最负盛名的喜剧之一《迪克·范·戴克秀》。
He created the Dick Van Dyke show, one of the most celebrated comedies of all time.
没错。
Right.
他获得过九座艾美奖，并执导过多部电影。
He won nine Emmys and and directed many movies.
他曾与史蒂夫·马丁密切合作。
He worked as a close collaborator with Steve Martin.
在罗伯漫长的好莱坞生涯中，他其实相当坦率地承认生活在父亲光环下的压力有多大。
And throughout Rob's long career in Hollywood, he could actually be quite candid about how overwhelming it could be to live in the shadow of his father.
他是怎么谈论这件事的？
How did he talk about it?
他谈到童年时感到被误解的经历。
He talked about feeling misunderstood as a child.
有次他被引述说，被拿来与父亲比较是件可怕的事。
Once he was quoted as saying it was frightening to be compared to him.
他还讲过这样一个故事：他父亲的朋友诺曼·李尔（另一位电视界巨匠）曾对卡尔·雷纳说，罗伯在父亲光环下显得很风趣。
And he tells this story about how a friend of his father, Norman Lear, another giant of television, pointed out to Carl Reiner that, you know, his son Rob was quite funny.
但卡尔·雷纳很惊讶。
But Carl Reiner was surprised.
他说：'我儿子？风趣？'
He's like, my son, funny.
我觉得他相当安静且闷闷不乐。
I think he's quite quiet and sullen.
在罗伯的晚年，他经常讲这个故事作为例子，说明他总觉得父亲不理解他。
And in Rob's later years, he would tell that story a lot as an example of how he just felt like his father didn't get him.
不了解他。
Didn't know him.
没错。
Right.
但他想像父亲一样，完全像父亲一样，而且他也没有回避这一点。
But he wanted to be like his father, just like his father, and he didn't shy away from that either.
他还讲过另一个故事，说有一次父亲鼓励他展现个性时，曾建议他考虑换个名字。
He told another story that when his father at one point encouraged him to differentiate himself, he suggested, you know, what other name would you wanna take on?
你想把名字改成什么？
What would you wanna change your name to?
罗伯回答说：如果我改成卡尔呢？
And Rob said, what if I changed it to Carl?
因此他接纳了这份渴望，想要成为父亲那样的人。
And so he embraced this desire to be like his father.
他在《迪克·范·戴克秀》片场度过青少年时期，如饥似渴地学习娱乐行业的一切。
He was a teenager on the set of the Dick Van Dyke show, learning everything he could about entertainment.
后来，他进入了戏剧领域。
And, you know, eventually, he got into theater.
他开始独立闯荡。
He struck out on his own.
他的第一个重要电视角色是由父亲的朋友诺曼·李尔选中的。
And his first major television role, he was cast by Norman Lear, his father's friend.
这部剧就是情景喜剧
And this was for the sitcom
来自好莱坞电视城。
From Television City in Hollywood.
《全家福》。
All in the family.
天啊，格伦·米勒的演奏太棒了。
Boy, the way Glenn Miller played.
那些让我街头游行的歌曲。
Songs that made my hip parade.
不错。
Nice.
这是七十年代一部具有定义性的电视剧，因为它展现了代际冲突。
It was a defining television show of the nineteen seventies for the way it put generational conflict on display.
在那个时代，沉默一代的成员，比如剧中的家长阿奇·邦克，正与源于六十年代的反战运动和青年反文化思潮激烈对抗。
This was a time when, you know, members of the silent generation, like the shows Patriarch Archie Bunker, were really grappling with the youth counterculture that stemmed from the nineteen sixties and the anti war movement.
而罗伯·莱纳饰演的角色名叫迈克尔·斯蒂维克。
And Rob Reiner's character was this guy named Michael Stivick.
他是个左翼分子，和平主义的嬉皮士，真正代表了那个年轻一代的形象。
He was a leftist, a pacifist hippie, and he was really the avatar for that younger generation.
报纸上有什么有趣的消息吗？
Anything interesting in the paper?
是啊。
Yeah.
越南和平示威活动中200人被捕。
200 arrested in Vietnam Day peace demonstration.
200人。
200.
他们真该把这帮人全关进监狱。
They should have thrown a whole bunch of them in the can.
嗯，我觉得他们只是不认同美国打一场非法且不道德的战争。
Well, I think they just don't like the idea of America fighting an illegal and immoral war.
哼，不喜欢也得忍着。
Well, if they don't like it, they can lump it.
不爽就滚蛋。
Take it down the road and dump it.
这部剧的很多笑料都来自阿奇·邦克——迈克·斯蒂维克的保守派岳父——与他之间的唇枪舌战，他总称呼迈克
And a lot of the show's comedy came from this back and forth between Archie Bunker, the conservative father-in-law to Mike Stivik, who he calls
你就是个榆木脑袋。
You are a meathead.
榆木脑袋。
Meathead.
榆木脑袋。
Meathead.
没错。
Right.
一个榆木脑袋，脖子上顶的是死疙瘩。
A meathead, dead from the neck up.
榆木脑袋。
Meathead.
尽管他们并非血缘上的父子，这部剧却始终贯穿着强烈的家庭叙事暗流。
And even though they weren't, you know, father and son by blood, this was a show with a strong undercurrent of this familial narrative.
两人常因政治立场、以及迈克尔没有一份阿奇眼中体面的工作而争吵。
And the two would fight over politics, over Michael's lack of a job that Archie would deem respectable.
阿奇，你只在乎你拥有的东西和如何保住它们。
That's all you care about Archie, is what you got and how you can keep it.
小子，如果你有什么东西，你也会在乎的。
Well, you'd care about it too, sonny boy, if you had anything.
对我来说，没有一口锅来削土豆皮就活不下去。
It wasn't living on for me without a pot to peel a potato.
然而他们之间也存在着深厚的爱的暗流。
And yet there's also this deep undercurrent of love between them.
没错。
Right.
他们确实有过真正心灵相通的时刻，我立刻想到的场景是他们被困在一个满是酒精的储藏室里，两人都喝醉了，谈论着各自的父亲。
There are moments of real connection, and the scene that comes to mind immediately is one where they're stuck together in a storage room full of alcohol, and, you know, both of them are drunk and talking about their fathers.
你有没有想过，可能...可能你的父亲是错的？
Did you ever think that that possibly your your your father just might be wrong?
错的是我家老头子。
Wrong my old man.
别犯傻了。
Don't be stupid.
我老爸？
My old man?
我是说，跟你讲讲吧。
I mean, tell you about it.
我是说，他从来不会错。
I mean, he's never wrong about nothing.
是的。
Yes.
他是错的，阿奇。
He was, Arch.
我老爸以前跟你老爸一样称呼别人。
I My old man used to call people the same things as your old man.
但我一直知道他是错的。
But I always knew he was wrong.
你父亲也是
So was your
老家伙
old man.
不，他就是
No, he was.
是的，他就是
Yes, he was.
你父亲错了
Your father was wrong.
先生，您父亲错了
Sir, your father was wrong.
此刻阿奇·邦克不由自主地倾吐了许多关于自己童年的往事
It's this moment where Archie Bunker, kind of, whether he wants to or not, unloads a lot about his own childhood.
那个让你感受到温暖的父亲，那个养家糊口的顶梁柱，那个拼命工作让你有屋可住有衣可穿的男人，你竟敢说他错了
Father who made you warm, your father, the breadwinner of the house there, the man who goes out and busts his butt to keep a roof over your head, and clothes on your back, you call your father wrong.
嘿，嘿，你父亲。
Hey, hey, your father.
你父亲。
Your father.
阿奇·邦克与迈克尔·斯皮瓦克共同坚信这一点：
Archie Bunker has this conviction that he shares with Michael Spivak that
与
With
瑞恩。
Ryan.
父亲不可能有错。
A father cannot be wrong.
然而，他却细数了父亲在他童年时对他所做的一切。
And yet, he explains all that his father did to him as a child.
我父亲现在对他有影响力了。
My father had a hand on him now.
我告诉你，他曾经打伤了那只手。
I'd tell you, he busted that hand once.
他还用皮带抽了我一百下，说是为了教我学好。
And he busted a 100 on me to teach me to do good.
对吧，父亲。
Right, father.
他为了七块钱把我关进衣柜，说是为了教我学好。
He shoved me in a closet for $7 to teach me to do good.
因为他爱我。
Because he loved me.
他爱我。
He loved me.
然而，内心深处仍有个挥之不去的信念：父亲不可能错。
And yet, there's still this nagging conviction that a father can't be wrong.
让我告诉你一件事。
Let me tell you something.
你应该爱你的父亲，因为他爱你。
You're supposed to love your father because your father loves you.
一个爱你的人怎么会告诉你错误的事情呢？
How can any man that loves you tell you anything that's wrong?
当阿奇·邦克讲述这个故事时，迈克尔的反应似乎让他突然明白了为何岳父会是这样的性格。
And as Archie Bunker is telling the story, the reaction of Michael, it seems to dawn on him why his father-in-law is like this.
为何对他如此严厉。
Why he's so harsh on him.
为何他们的关系会如此对立——因为他并不总是表现得像岳父永远是对的。
Why their relationship can be so at odds because he doesn't always act like his father-in-law is always right.
在场景结尾，当阿奇·邦克躺下入睡时，有个非常温情的时刻：迈克尔起身像父亲般给他盖上了毯子。
And at the end of the scene, you know, as Archie Bunker lies down and falls asleep, there's this really tender moment where Michael gets up and puts the blanket over him almost in a fatherly way.
没错。
Right.
从某种意义上说，女婿莱纳反而成为了突然毫无防备地暴露内心创伤（尽管他自己并未察觉）的阿奇·邦克的父亲角色。
The son-in-law, Reiner, becomes, in a sense, the father, the parent of a suddenly, quite openly wounded, although not self aware of his wounds, Archie Bunker.
这真是个温馨的时刻。
It's a really tender moment.
在这部喜剧中，这一刻因其真实的内涵而显得格外突出。
And in this comedy, it really stands out as a moment of real substance.
这是莱纳一炮而红的突破性角色。
This was a huge breakout role for Reiner.
他赢得了两座艾美奖，整个二十多岁到三十多岁期间几乎都奉献给了这部剧。
He won two Emmys, and he spent really the second half of his twenties and into his thirties on this show.
但他始终有个挥之不去的念头——想做更多事。
But he had this nagging feeling that he wanted to do more.
他想当导演。
He wanted to direct.
因此在《全家福》结束后，他成为了多产的电影导演。
And so after All in the Family ended, he became prolific film director.
他的首部重要故事片是1984年的《摇滚万万岁》。
And his first major feature film was This Is Spinal Tap in 1984.
你们的第一任鼓手是
Your first drummer was
皮普。
The Peep.
约翰·斯坦皮·皮普斯。
John Stampy Peeps.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
一个戴眼镜、身材高大的金发极客。
Great great tall blonde geek with glasses.
没错。
Yeah.
戏剧性十足。
Good drama.
造型很棒。
Great look.
好戏。
Good drama.
是啊。
Yeah.
好戏。
Good drama.
他后来怎么了？
What happened to him?
他去世了。
He died.
他...他多年前死于一场离奇的园艺事故。
He he died in a bizarre gardening accident some years back.
对于那些不了解那部电影的人来说，这情节相当特别。
And for those who don't know that movie, it's quite specific.
没错。
Yes.
这是一部讽刺英国倒霉金属乐队的作品，真正奠定了伪纪录片的形式。
It's this satire about a hapless British metal band that really helped define the form of mockumentary.
这是我们舞台上用的顶级设备，但它非常非常特别，因为你看——没错。
This is a top to, you know, what we use on stage, but it's very, very special because if you can see Yeah.
所有数字都标到了11。
The numbers all go to 11.
看。
Look.
整个面板都是。
Right across the board.
哇。
Wow.
11。
11.
11。
11.
11。
11.
的
Of the
功放最高只能到10。
Amps go up to 10.
没错。
Exactly.
而且雷纳也参演了这部电影。
And Reiner's in this movie.
他不只是导演，对吧。
He doesn't just direct Right.
他在片中饰演那种正经的角色。
He's in it as kind of the straight man.
再大声一点。
One louder.
你为什么不直接把10调得更响，让10成为最高档位，然后再稍微调高一点呢？
Why don't you just make 10 louder and make 10 be the top number and make that a little louder?
这些可以调到11。
These go to 11.
这次发行真正开启了雷纳辉煌的八年电影生涯，他在不同类型间游刃有余，真正成为了好莱坞的一股力量。
And this release really started the spectacular eight years of cinema for Reiner where he leapfrogged from genre to genre and really became a force in Hollywood.
他拍了成长题材的剧情片《伴我同行》。
You had the coming of age drama Stand By Me.
你曾看过奇幻冒险电影《公主新娘》
You had the fantasy adventure film, The Princess Bride.
你好
Hello.
我叫伊尼戈·蒙托亚
My name is Inigo Montoya.
你杀了我的父亲
You killed my father.
准备受死吧。
Prepare to die.
别再说那句话了。
Stop saying that.
还有心理惊悚片《危情十日》。
You had the psychological thriller, Misery.
你这只脏鸟。
You dirty bird.
你怎么能这样？
How could you?
法庭剧情片《义海雄风》。
The courtroom drama, A Few Good Men.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
你想要答案吗？
You want answers?
我认为我有这个权利。
I think I'm entitled.
你想要答案吗？
You want answers?
我要真相。
I want the truth.
你承受不了真相。
You can't handle the truth.
当然还有浪漫喜剧，可能是他最著名的电影，《当哈利遇到莎莉》。
And of course, the rom com, probably his most famous movie of all, When Harry Met Sally.
不。
No.
因为我会感到骄傲，但我确实会感到骄傲。
Because I would be proud But I would be proud.
能分享你的山核桃派。
To partake Two partake of your pecan pie.
你的山核桃派。
Of your pecan pie.
山核桃派。
Pecan pie.
山核桃派。
Pecan pie.
山核桃派。
Pecan pie.
没错。
Right.
这些电影不仅令人难忘。
And these movies are not just memorable.
它们实际上已成为流行文化的一部分，融入了我们的日常用语。
They literally become part of pop culture, part of our vernacular.
你刚才提到的每部电影都有经典台词，我们俩都能互相背诵出来，包括《 Spinal Tap 》里的这句。
There is a quote from each and every one of the movies you just mentioned that either one of us could recite back to each other, including and this is from Spinal Tap.
愚蠢和聪明之间只有一线之隔。
It's such a fine line between stupid and clever.
或者《好人寥寥》里的那句：你承受不了真相。
Or from A Few Good Men, you can't handle the truth.
我承受不了真相。
I can't handle the truth.
这一系列电影最迷人的地方在于，雷纳经常将自己的亲身经历融入创作中。
And what's fascinating about this string of movies is that Reiner would often tap into his own personal experiences in making them.
我记得他说过，正是这种做法让他作为电影人保持了真诚。
I think he said that's what kept him honest as a filmmaker.
其中一个例子就是《伴我同行》，这部电影改编自斯蒂芬·金的中篇小说。
And one example of that is Stand By Me, which is based on a novella by Stephen King.
不是那个秘密敲门方式。
It's not the secret knock.
我忘记秘密敲门方式了。
I forget the secret knock.
让我进去。
Let me in.
快跑。
Run.
故事讲述了四个青春期前的男孩展开的一场冒险。
And it's about four preteen boys who have this adventure.
那你还在抱怨什么，维诺？
So what are you pissing and moaning about, Verno?
你们想去看一具尸体吗？
You guys wanna go see a dead body?
试图寻找这具尸体。
Trying to find this dead body.
沿途他们逐渐展现出各自的性格故事。
And along the way, they're revealing the story of who each of them are.
没错。
Right.
说到主角，这个12岁有抱负的作家，有一场令人心碎的场景，他在朋友面前崩溃了。
And when it comes to the protagonist, this 12 year old aspiring writer, he has this devastating scene where he breaks down in front of his friend.
为什么你必须死，克里斯？
Why do you have to die, Chris?
为什么丹尼必须死？
Why did Denny have to die?
为什么？
Why?
他亲爱的哥哥刚刚去世，他表达了自己感觉父亲希望死的是他。
His brother, his beloved older brother had just died and he was expressing how he felt like his father wishes that he was the one who died.
他恨我。
He hates me.
他不恨你。
He doesn't hate you.
他恨我。
He hates me.
不。
No.
他只是不了解你。
He just doesn't know you.
他恨我。
He hates me.
而且
And
他的朋友坐在那里，用他作为孩子能想到的最好方式安慰他。
his friend is sitting there trying to console him in the best way he can, you know, as a kid.
雷纳会说这就是他小时候的感受。
And Rainer would say that that is how he felt as a little boy.
戈迪，总有一天你会成为伟大的作家。
You're gonna be a great writer someday, Gordy.
要是哪天你实在没素材可写，说不定会把我们几个写进书里。
You might even write about us guys if you ever get hard up from material.
他感觉自己就像角色戈迪在和朋友交谈。
He felt like the character Gordy talking to his friend.
对。
Right.
而且他觉得父亲并不了解他。
And he felt like his father didn't know him.
当然，雷纳的个人生活最终也融入了《当哈利遇到莎莉》的剧情中。
And, of course, Reiner's personal life ends up figuring into the plot of When Harry Met Sally.
没错。
Right.
雷纳是在与第一任妻子离婚后产生《当哈利遇到莎莉》这个创意的。
Reiner had the idea for When Harry Met Sally after he divorced his first wife.
那时他重新回到了约会市场。
And he was back in the dating pool.
实际上，在拍摄那部电影期间，他被介绍认识了他的妻子米歇尔。
And actually, in the making of that movie, he was introduced to his wife, Michelle.
据他所说，他在遇见米歇尔后确实改变了电影的结局。
And the way he tells it, he actually changed the ending of the movie after meeting Michelle.
他修改了结局，让两位主角最终在一起。
He changed it so that the two protagonists end up together.
没错。
Right.
实际上很难想象这部电影会有其他结局——除了那个著名场景中哈利和莎莉互诉爱意并决定在一起的完美收尾。
And it's actually kind of unfathomable that that movie would end any other way than it did with Harry and Sally in that famous scene telling each other that they love each other and that they will be together.
完全同意。
Absolutely.
这已成为影史经典。
It's film history.
多年来，雷纳的成功早已超越了导演领域。
And over the years, Rainer's success goes beyond even directing.
他创立了城堡石制片公司，后来制作了多部经典电影。
He starts this production company, Castle Rock, that ends up creating some classic movies.
还有《宋飞正传》。
And Seinfeld.
没错。
Exactly.
实际上它制作了历史上最成功的喜剧系列之一——《宋飞正传》。
It actually produced one of the most successful comedy series in history, Seinfeld.
对于一个在自己时代主演了伟大情景喜剧的人来说，这真是圆满的循环。
Pretty full circle for a guy who stars in one of the great sitcoms of his era.
对。
Right.
他还有着活跃的政治生活。
And he also has this vibrant political life.
他深度参与了争取同性婚姻的斗争。
He gets really involved in the fight for gay marriage.
他实际上带头推动了一项围绕加州早期教育的投票议案。
He actually spearheads a ballot measure revolving around early education in California.
他最终成为了一个多面手，其名声远不止于电影制作。
He becomes this really multifaceted figure that is known for more than just his filmmaking.
没错。
Right.
他还成为了特朗普总统的眼中钉。
And he becomes a thorn in the side of president Trump.
确实如此。
Absolutely.
我是说，莱纳从一开始就反对特朗普，多年来一直是直言不讳的批评者，在最近几个月的最后一次采访中，他还警告说特朗普正将国家引向专制。
I mean, Reiner was against Trump from the beginning, became a vocal critic over the years, and in one of his final interviews in recent months, warned that Trump was leading the country into autocracy.
在他去世后，当特朗普暗示他的死与莱纳对自己的反对有关时，这一切都显得格外刺眼。
And this was all thrown into sharp relief after his death when Trump suggested that his death had to do with Reiner's own opposition to him.
对。
Right.
我得说，这是个相当毫无根据、甚至可以说是轻率的说法。
Which is a pretty wildly unsubstantiated, I daresay, reckless claim.
我认为朱莉娅让我们回到了最初讨论的雷纳与他儿子的关系上。
And I think that Julia brings us back to Reiner's relationship with his son, which we started with.
而且我知道这对父子最终合作拍摄了一部电影。
And I know that the two, father and son, end up working on a film together.
没错。
Right.
当人们在互联网上梳理尼克与他父母关系的资料时，最引人注目的就是他们父子在合作这部电影时所做的那些访谈。
As everyone sifts through what there is on the Internet about the relationship between Nick and his parents, what keeps coming to the fore are these interviews that he did with his father when they were making this movie together.
对。
Right.
再给我们讲讲这部电影吧。
And just remind us about this movie.
这部电影叫《成为查理》，实际上是基于他们父子关系的松散改编，讲述一个与毒瘾抗争的儿子和一个从演员转型为政治家的父亲的故事。
It's called Being Charlie, and it's actually loosely based on their own relationship, focused on a son who is battling a drug addiction and a father who's an actor turned politician.
这部电影的创意来自尼克·雷纳在康复中心时的经历。
And the idea from this movie came from Nick Reiner when he was in rehab.
要知道，在他的青少年时期，他曾说过自己大约接受过18次不同的治疗。
You know, throughout his teenage years, he said he was in treatment roughly 18 different times.
哇。
Wow.
在其中一家康复机构里，他遇到了一位朋友，两人开始一起创作剧本，素材都来自他们与毒瘾斗争的经历。
And in one of those rehab facilities, he meets a friend who he starts working on a script with, and they're pulling from their experiences with drug addiction.
最终，罗伯·莱纳采纳了这个想法，将剧本拍成了长片，这就是由他执导的《成为查理》。
Now, eventually, Rob Reiner embraces the idea of making the script into a full length film, and that becomes Being Charlie, which is directed by Rob Reiner.
嗯。
Mhmm.
尼克与父母在如何对待他的戒毒康复问题上显然存在深刻矛盾，这些主题在电影中得到了充分展现。
There was clearly a deep conflict between Nick and his parents over how to approach his own addiction recovery, and those themes really shine through in the movie.
电影中有句台词，父亲对正在与毒瘾抗争的儿子说：
There's this line where the father in the movie is talking to his son who's battling drug addiction.
父亲说：'我不断告诉自己，我宁愿你活着恨我，也不愿你死在街头。'
And the father says, all I could tell myself was I'd rather have you alive and hating me than dead on the streets.
哇。
Wow.
所以在这轮采访中，罗伯和尼克正在谈论这部电影如何影响了他们的关系。
And so during this round of interviews, Rob and Nick are talking about how this movie affected their relationship.
那它是怎么影响的
And how did it affect
我们做这个不是为了宣泄情感，但结果却起到了这样的效果。
We didn't do it to be cathartic, but it turned out that that's what happened.
意思是
Mean
罗伯说这让他更理解儿子了，也希望能让他成为一个更好的父亲。
Rob said it made him understand his son a lot more and that he hoped it made him a better father.
这让我们变得更亲密了。
And that brought us closer together.
尼克说
And Nick said
我们小时候并不怎么亲近。
We didn't bond a lot as a kid.
比如，他真的很喜欢棒球。
Like, he really liked baseball.
我喜欢篮球，他可以和我弟弟一起看篮球比赛，但棒球不行。
I like basketball, and he could watch that with my brother, but baseball.
尽管他小时候和父亲并不亲近，但这让他更好地理解了父亲。
Even though he and his father didn't bond a lot as a kid, it better helped him understand his dad.
这让我感觉和他更亲近了。
It made me feel closer to him.
在这些采访中，很明显尼克和他的父母为了让他保持清醒付出了很多努力。
And in those interviews, it's clear that, you know, Nick and his parents had worked very hard to keep him sober.
但尼克后来也谈到了电影上映后复吸的经历。
But Nick also talked later about relapsing after the movie came out.
是在这次与父亲合作拍电影的治愈性活动之后。
Was After this healing exercise of making a movie with his dad.
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对。
Right.
他在一个播客中谈到，曾因吸食可卡因在飞机上心脏病发作，最终被送进医院。
There was a podcast where he talks about having a heart attack on a plane from cocaine use and ending up in the hospital.
还有一次他提到，在可卡因作用下彻底毁坏了父母家的客房——那是他住的地方——他砸了电视机、打碎了台灯，整个房间一片狼藉。
And there's another time he talks about being on cocaine and completely wrecking his parents' guesthouse, which he lived in, where he punches the television, punches a lamp, you know, and the the whole place ends up in shambles.
从这些访谈中可以明显看出，全家人都在为尼克努力戒除毒瘾，并寻求家庭关系的持久稳定。
So in these interviews, it's clear that the whole family was striving for sobriety for Nick and some lasting stability in terms of the family relationship.
是的。
Right.
但这从未实现。
But it never came.
朱莉娅，非常感谢你。
Well, Julia, thank you very much.
我们很感激。
We appreciate it.
谢谢邀请我。
Thanks for having me.
我们马上回来。
We'll be right back.
我是安德鲁·索尔金，DealBook的创始人。
This is Andrew Osorkin, the founder of DealBook.
每年在纽约市举办的DealBook峰会上，我都会现场采访一些全球最具影响力的政治、文化和商业领袖。
Every year, interview some of the world's most influential leaders across politics, culture, and business at the DealBook Summit, a live event in New York City.
比如网球冠军塞雷娜·威廉姆斯。
Figures like tennis champion Serena Williams.
女子体育并非一时风潮。
Women's sports is not having a moment.
它一直都在那里。
It's always been there.
只是你们现在才注意到。
You guys are just noticing.
以及OpenAI的首席执行官山姆·奥特曼。
And OpenAI's CEO, Sam Altman.
我们必须将这些系统推向世界。
We gotta put these systems out into the world.
社会与技术必须共同进化。
Society and the technology have to co evolve.
在本年度播客中，您将听到我与加州州长加文·纽森、演员兼制片人哈莉·贝瑞、查理·柯克遗孀埃里卡·柯克（Palantir和Anthropic及BlackRock公司CEO）以及更广为人知的'野兽先生'吉米·唐纳森等人的原汁原味对话。
On this year's podcast, you'll hear my unfiltered conversations with California governor Gavin Newsom, actor and producer Halle Berry, Erica Kirk, the widow of Charlie Kirk, the CEO of Palantir and Anthropic and BlackRock, and Jimmy Donaldson, known better as Mr.
野兽。
Beast.
您可以在任意播客平台收听DealBook峰会节目。
Listen to DealBook Summit wherever you get your podcasts.
韦斯利，感谢您抽空接受采访。
Wesley, thank you for making time for us.
当然。
Of course.
我是说，我很遗憾事情必须在这样的情况下发生。
I mean, I'm sad that it has to be under these circumstances.
这是
It's a
非常悲伤的情况。
really sad circumstance.
正如我们的同事朱莉·雅各布斯刚才向我们解释的那样。
As our colleague Julie Jacobs just walked us through.
这确实是一个非凡职业生涯的悲剧性终结。
It's a really it's a really tragic end to a remarkable career.
我们邀请你来工作室的原因是，我们需要一个评论家对罗伯·莱纳职业生涯和作品的评价。
And the reason we've asked you to come in the studio is because we wanted a critic's assessment of the career and the work of Rob Reiner.
你是《纽约时报》的首席评论家。
You are the Times chief critic.
而且我知道你是个真正的电影爱好者。
You're also, and I know this from firsthand experience, a genuine film buff.
在这样的背景下，你认为罗伯·莱纳和他执导的电影有何重要意义？
So in that context, what is the significance in your mind of Reiner and the films that he directed?
在你心目中，他是怎样的一位电影制作人？
What kind of a filmmaker was he in your mind?
他是那种真正热衷于取悦观众的导演。
He was the sort of director who was really interested in pleasing people.
对吧？
Right?
他想拍出能让人们开心的电影。
He wanted to make movies that made people happy.
即使是黑暗题材的电影，他也在寻找能满足我们影迷观影时所需愉悦感的方式。
Even when they were, like, dark movies, he was looking for a way to find the pleasure centers that we as moviegoers needed met when we went to a movie theater.
或者，你知道的，因为很多时候莱纳的电影你会反复在家观看。
Or, you know, because a lot of the times with Reiner, you would be watching these movies at home over and over and over again.
一遍又
Over and
因为它们不知怎的就一遍又一遍地出现在你家的电视屏幕上。
And Because they somehow made their way onto your TV screen at home over and over and over.
哦，是啊。
Oh, yeah.
不管你是去音像店从架子上取下那些电影，还是它一直在有线电视上播放。
Whether you went to a video store and pulled one of those movies off the shelf or it was just on cable all the time.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
它们如此美妙之处，也正是让罗伯·莱纳成为——他并非影评人青睐的导演。
The thing about them that is so wonderful is also the thing that made Rob Reiner kind of he wasn't a critic's director.
对吧？
Right?
从很多方面来说，回头去读他电影的影评，总会有批评说这些电影走得不够远。
In a lot of ways, go back and read the reviews of his movies, and it would always be the charge would be the movies didn't go far enough.
它们挖掘得不够深。
They didn't go deep enough.
它们并未深入探讨人际关系中那些可能触及的细枝末节。
They weren't getting into, like, the nitty gritty of human relationships in the way that they probably could have.
没错。
Right.
事实上，我最近24小时内刚做过这个练习，这应该让全世界的影评人感到惭愧。
In fact, I went through this exercise within the last twenty four hours, and it should be humbling to the film critics of the world.
你回头看看像《伴我同行》这类影片的评论。
You go back and look at the reviews of something like stand by me.
确实。
Sure.
我只是希望能去一个没人认识我的地方。
And just wishing that I could go someplace where nobody knows me.
《纽约时报》也批评说太过甜腻。
In the times, too much saccharine.
确实。
Sure.
但那个
But that
这并非年轻的迈克尔·巴贝拉观看《伴我同行》时的体验，对他来说，那完全揭示了兄弟情谊、手足之情
that's not the experience of a young Michael Barbera watching stand by me and finding it to be a complete revelation of what brotherhood, fraternity
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
以及青春冒险可能呈现的模样。
And youthful adventure might look like.
我是说，我认为关于罗伯·莱纳，关键是要区分什么是最伟大的电影与什么是你最喜欢的电影。
Mean, I I think the thing about Rob Reiner that's that's important to make the distinction between is a question of what the greatest movies are and what your favorite movies are.
他
He
拍的是你最喜欢的。
makes your favorites.
那个人拍出了你最喜欢的电影。
That man has made your favorite movie.
他拍过一部你钟爱的电影，而每个人心中都有这样一部。
He's made one of your favorite movies, and everybody's got one.
他拍过两部我最爱的电影，比如《当哈利遇到莎莉》。
He's made two of my favorite movies and, like Which, you know, When Harry Met Sally.
说真的，这还用说吗。
I mean, come on.
罗伯·莱纳身上有几点特质，使得人们对他逝世的哀悼显得尤为重要。
There's a couple of things with Rob Reiner that makes this outpouring of grief over his death important.
他导演生涯的巅峰期，正是电影还专注于用精彩剧本和明星阵容来呈现简单故事的时代。
His peak as a director was at a time when the movies were interested in just simple things brought to life by a good script and a couple of stars.
这些品质在当今电影中已不复存在。
These are not values the movies have anymore.
这些都已成为美国电影制作的过往云烟。
These are bygone aspects of American movie making.
而他本人就是那个时代电影艺术的化身之一，他的作品完美体现了那个时期的特色。
And he embodied he was one of the principal embodiments his movies were of that era.
对我来说，《当哈利遇到莎莉》之所以伟大，是因为里面有我熟悉的两个人——梅格·瑞恩和比利·克里斯托。
For me, when Harriet Met Sally was great because it had these two people that I kinda knew, Meg Ryan and Billy Crystal.
嗯。
Mhmm.
罗伯·莱iner让他们成为了电影明星。
Rob Reiner made them movie stars.
这部电影让他们成为了电影明星。
This movie made them movie stars.
某种程度上
It's kind
很难想象他们之前竟然不是电影明星。
of hard to imagine that they weren't movie stars before that.
但不知怎的
But somehow
是的。
Yeah.
你之前在其他作品里见过他们。
You'd seen them in things before.
要知道，比利·克里斯托是位知名喜剧演员，而梅格·瑞恩之前在其他电影里都是演配角。
And, you know, Billy Crystal was a well known comic, and Meg Ryan was somebody who'd been in other movies as like a supporting character.
而且《当哈利遇到莎莉》还有诺拉·艾芙伦写的精彩剧本。
And you also had in Harry Met Sally this great script by Nora Ephron.
诺拉·艾芙伦、威廉姆·高德曼、艾伦·索金，他们为罗伯·莱纳写过那些经典电影剧本。
Nora Ephron, William Goldman, Aaron Sorkin, they wrote the great Rob Reiner movies.
而且罗伯很懂得如何驾驭好剧本和好演员。
And he knew what to do with a good screenplay and good actors.
观看他们如何完美融合，最终蜕变成这种令人惊叹的情感体验，本身就是种享受。
And part of the pleasure of watching them all congeal just come together and, you know, transmogrify into this, like, amazing experience of just feeling.
对吧？
Right?
我是说，你看《公主新娘》，全片洋溢着欢快的气息。
I mean, you watch The Princess Bride, and it's all exuberance.
你看《当哈利遇到莎莉》，无论你相信人们如何相遇、共度时光并交流，它都完美呈现。
You watch when Harry met Sally, and it's just whatever you believe about people getting together and, like, spending time with each other and communicating.
太神奇了。
It's amazing.
你看起来像个普通人，但实际上你是死亡天使。
You look like a normal person, but, actually you are the angel of death.
你要嫁给他吗？
Are you gonna marry him?
我们才认识一个月，而且我们俩现在都没打算结婚。
We have only known each other for a month, and besides, neither one of us is looking to get married right now.
我要结婚了。
I'm getting married.
真的吗？
You are?
嗯
Mhmm.
你是
You are.
对
Yeah.
真是场愉快的谈话
Just some great talking.
什么？
What ish?
好吧，你正在独自走向我内心深处
Well, you're getting on your own to what I deeply
希望你能做到 好的
would love for you to do Okay.
就是带我们进入一部雷纳导演电影的场景
Which is to take us into one scene of a Reiner directed film.
鉴于你刚才所说的，我现在不得不相信那个场景会出自《当哈利遇到莎莉》。
And at this point, I have to believe because of what you've already said that that scene is gonna be coming from When Harry Met Sally.
当然。
Sure.
那部电影里有很多场景。
And there's a lot of scenes in that movie.
我认为《当哈利遇到莎莉》体现了他作为电影人所有创作追求的巅峰。
I think When Harry Met Sally, to me, it's the peak of all his priorities as a filmmaker.
人性的部分，爱情的部分。
The human part, the love part.
而且很明显，如果要从这部电影里选一个场景，那必然是餐厅那场戏。
And, obviously, if you're gonna boil this movie down to one scene, it's the diner scene.
对吧？
Right?
就是熟食店那场戏。
It's the deli scene.
嗯
Mhmm.
梅格·瑞恩饰演的莎莉和比利·克里斯托饰演的哈利，这两人已经做了几年朋友。
Meg Ryan, Sally, and Billy Crystal, who's Harry, these people have been friends now for a few years.
他们对彼此恋爱和性生活的节奏都非常熟悉。
And they are very familiar with the cadences of each other's dating and sex lives.
某天他们共进午餐时，开始讨论哈利最近在感情上遭遇的挫折。
They go to have lunch one day, and they proceed to talk about Harry's latest disappointment romantically.
这段感情没成。
It's not working out.
感情没成，女方离开了，而他已经继续前进了。
It's not working out, and she's gone, and he has moved on.
那你会
So what do
怎么办
you do
对这些女人？
with these women?
你就这样起床走人？
You just get up out of bed and leave?
当然。
Sure.
那给我解释解释你是怎么做到的。
Well, explain to me how you do it.
你会说什么？
What do you say?
就说有个早会、预约了早间理发、或者早场壁球赛。
Just have an early meeting, early haircut, early squash game.
你根本不打壁球。
You don't play squash.
她们又不知道。
They don't know that.
他们刚认识我。
They just met me.
真恶心。
That's disgusting.
我知道。
I know.
我感觉糟透了。
I feel terrible.
然后她说：你大概不会知道，从来没有女人对你满意过。
And she's like, Well, you probably wouldn't know that a woman's never been satisfied by you.
嘿，我对此感觉不太好，但我也没听到有人抱怨。
Hey, I don't feel great about this, but I don't hear anyone complaining.
当然没有。
Of course not.
你溜得太快了。
You're out the door too fast.
我觉得他们过得还行。
I think they have an okay time.
你怎么知道？
How do you know?
我是说，我怎么知道我知道？
I mean, how do I know I know?
然后他说，我觉得我会知道因为当时我在场。
And he's like, I think I would know because I was there.
是我创造了这种满足感。
I created the satisfaction.
因为他们
Because they
对，因为他们
Yes, because they
你怎么确定他们真的
How do you know that they're really
你在说什么？
What are you saying?
说她们假装高潮？
That they fake orgasm?
然后她像梅格·瑞恩、莎莉那样说，为什么呢？
And she's like Meg Ryan, Sally, says, well Why?
大多数女性都曾或多或少假装过。
Most women at one time or another have faked it.
我告诉你，大多数女性在人生的某个阶段都曾假装过。
I'm telling you that most women at some point in their lives have faked it.
好吧，她们从没对我假装过。
Well, they haven't faked it with me.
你怎么知道？
How do you know?
因为我知道。
Because I know.
他就像在说，不，她们没有。
And he's like, no, they haven't.
这太荒谬了。
That's insane.
对。
Right.
没错。
That's right.
我忘了。
I forgot.
你是个男人。
You're a man.
你这话是什么意思？
What was that supposed to mean?
没什么。
Nothing.
只是所有男人都确信
It's just that all men are sure
这种事绝不会发生在他们身上，而大多数女人都或多或少经历过，你自己算算吧。
it never happened to them, and most women at one time or another have done it, so you do the math.
你不认为我能分辨出来吗？
You don't think that I can tell a difference?
不能。
No.
走开。
Get out of here.
镜头切换到梅格·瑞恩。
So cut to Meg Ryan.
她眼神示意，哦，好吧。
Her eyes go, oh, okay.
她眼里闪过一丝，像是顽皮的光芒。
There's a, like, a twinkle, like a little mischievous twinkle.
她在告诉我们。
She's telling us.
她在向我们暗示她接下来要做什么。
She's telegraphing to us what she's about to do.
她带着几分笑意，然后开始进入高潮。
And she kinda half smiles, and she proceeds to start her orgasm.
哦。
Oh.
哦。
Oh.
哦，是啊。
Oh, yeah.
你还好吗？
Are you okay?
而她并没有这样做。从导演和剪辑的角度来看，这确实是件很难处理的事，因为你必须保持一种特定的节奏感。
And she does not And this is a really difficult thing to do both directing and editing wise because you have to there's a rhythm that has to be maintained here.
哦，天啊。
Oh, god.
哦，哦，天啊。
Oh, oh, god.
但你还得表现出她一直沉浸在这场高潮中，而他则要忍受看着她表演的不适。
But you also have to establish that she is staying in this orgasm, and he is going to suffer through the discomfort of watching her perform it.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
就在那里。
Right there.
哦。
Oh.
我们应该提醒听众，这一切都围绕着吃一个看起来非常普通的三明治展开。
And that all of this, we should just remind the listener, revolves around the consumption of a very average looking sandwich.
我们得聊聊这个三明治，因为它就是一堆肉。
That's we gotta talk about the sandwich because it's just a pile of meat.
但镜头切换到哈利，他逐渐意识到正在发生的事情已成定局，他即将在这场争论中败下阵来。
But there's a cut to Harry and his increasing awareness that what is happening is happening, and he is about to lose this this argument.
比利·克里斯托对这个事实表现出越来越强烈的窘迫感。
But Billy Crystal is performing increasing mortification at the fact.
有趣的是，这既意味着他在争论中落败，也意味着他对她制造的这场闹剧感到难堪。
Not it's interesting because it's simultaneously him losing this argument and him being embarrassed by this spectacle that she's creating.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
他脸上写满了‘我的天啊’的表情。
And there's so many looks on his face of just like, oh my god.
她简直‘我的天啊’。
She's oh my god.
天啊。
Oh my god.
而他就像在说‘我的天啊’。
And he's like, oh my god.
于是就有了这种紧张感。
And so there's this tension.
他的窘迫与她的狂喜之间仿佛存在着某种物理张力。
There's this, like, physics between his mortification and her ecstasy.
而在这个场景的第30秒左右，发生了一个重要转折。
And an important thing happens at about the thirtieth second in this scene.
哇。
Wow.
你确实做到了。
You really did.
就是这个场景中高潮的部分。
Of the orgasm part of this scene.
整个场景持续了大约三分钟。
The scene goes, like, three minutes long.
就是这样。
It's this.
镜头对准正在假装高潮的梅格·瑞恩，而她身后的男人转过身来。
The camera's on Meg Ryan mid fake orgasm, and the man turns around behind her.
他戴着洋基队棒球帽，面无表情却直直看向她的方向。
And he is wearing a Yankees cap, and he is completely deadpan but looking in her direction.
画面中只有他们两个人。
And it's just the two of them in this shot.
然后你突然意识到——天啊。
And you realize, oh my god.
作为观众的你发现他们不会像电视剧那样处理这个场景。
You as a viewer realizes they're not gonna do the thing that a television show would do.
这是罗伯·莱纳的电影语言部分。
This is the Rob Reiner going to the movies part.
这是诺拉·艾芙隆对现实世界的理解。
This is Nora Ephron knowing how the world works.
我们不会假装这是个封闭空间，不会让这些角色只为了让你相信自己在餐厅里而存在。
We're not gonna pretend that this is a closed environment, and these people are just here to make you think you're in a diner.
嗯。
Mhmm.
人们会听到这次高潮。
People are going to hear this orgasm.
很多人。
Lots of people.
因为它本可以就这样结束。
Because it could have ended just like that.
本可以在那个戴洋基队帽子的人转身时就结束。
It could have ended the minute that guy in the Yankees cap turns around.
甚至在那之前，比利·克里斯托在这段戏里卖力表演喜剧效果不输梅格·瑞恩。
Even before that, Billy Crystal was selling the comedy in this bit as much as Meg Ryan is.
你本可以在那里就结束。
You could have just ended it right there.
那个场景本可以结束，而她就像在说：我的表演到此为止。
That scene could have ended, and she was just like, I rest my case.
但相反，这个场景又持续了大约三十秒。
But instead, this scene goes on for, like, another thirty seconds.
是啊。
Yeah.
这让人非常不舒服。
It's it's deeply uncomfortable.
不，迈克尔。
No, Michael.
不是的。
No.
这一点都不让人不舒服。
It's not uncomfortable at all.
这太搞笑了。
It's hilarious.
搞笑到令人不适。
Hilariously uncomfortable.
而这件事
And the thing that
让它变得如此好笑的是我们这些观众，看着这个女人假装高潮的样子。
makes it hilarious is us, the people watching this woman fake this orgasm.
他们不知道她在假装。
They don't know she's faking it.
他们根本不知道发生了什么。
They don't know what's going on.
这个三明治一定特别好吃。
This this sandwich must be real good.
这堆肉肯定对她产生了某种
This pile of meat must be doing something to
这个
this
女人。
woman.
在这个场景的每一个后续镜头中，我们已经确立了梅格·瑞安将如何表演她的假高潮。
Every subsequent shot during this sequence, we've established how Meg Ryan is gonna perform her fake orgasm.
我们明白比利·克里斯托感到无比尴尬。
We understand that Billy Crystal is mortified.
但现在我们在这个场景剩余的大部分时间里，都在观察熟食店里其他人的反应。
But now we spend the rest of this sequence, most of the rest of it, watching everybody else in the deli react.
哦。
Oh.
哦，是的。
Oh, yes.
比如，甚至都不是在反应。
Like, not even react.
他们只是看着她这样做。
They're just watching her do this.
这真是_an amazing sight because some people are concerned_】
And it's it's an amazing sight because some people are concerned.
有些人就觉得，你知道的，这可是纽约。
Some people are like, you know, it's New York.
所以这也是一部伟大的纽约电影。
So this is also one of the great New York movies.
对吧？
Right?
所以这就是纽约。
So it's New York.
人们就觉得，哦，看来今天是熟食店的‘高潮日’了。
And people are like, oh, it's orgasm day, I guess, on the deli.
好吧。
Okay.
很好。
Great.
太棒了。
Fantastic.
她达到了高潮。
And she reaches her climax.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
哦。
Oh.
哦。
Oh.
哦，天哪。
Oh, God.
她拿起了叉子。
She picks up her fork.
她戳向沙拉或盘子里不管是什么的东西。
She stabs her salad or whatever it is that's on that plate.
她咬了一口，镜头从正反打、切镜头、切镜头、切镜头，转到我称之为两人在卡座里相对而坐的主镜头。
She takes a bite, and we go from shot reverse shot, cutaway, cutaway, cutaway, to a like, I would say, a master shot of the two of them facing each other in the booth.
而你
And you
可以看到背景中也有两位女士在用餐，她们看着梅格·瑞恩，还有那句经典台词，因为这场戏本可以就此结束。
can see in the background two women also having a meal, looking at Meg Ryan, and the famous line because the scene could have ended.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
我们已经得到了释放。
We've already had our release.
猪肉。
Pork.
我们结束了。
We're done.
我们结束了。
We're done.
这个场景已经被删掉了。
This scene is already killed.
但他还是决定这么做。
But he goes for it.
我们结束了。
We're done.
这位女士对服务员说了那句经典台词。
And this woman says to the waiter, you know the line.
我要和她一样的。
I'll have what she's having.
我要
I'll have
和她一样的。
what she's having.
是啊。
Yeah.
这是电影史上最令人难忘的台词之一。
It's one of the most memorable lines in all of cinema.
这永远不会过时。
It never gets old.
你就算每周看一次，还是会笑到尿裤子——因为它就是这么欢乐。
You never watch that once a week and still pee your pants because that's how that's how joyful it is.
它就是有这么欢乐。
It's just how joyful it is.
而且这场景太纽约了。
Also, it's so New York.
顺便说一句，那是他的...那是他的
I just By the way, that's his that's his
妈妈说的这句台词。
mom who says it.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
这句台词是由埃斯特尔·雷纳演绎的。
Estelle Reiner is the person who delivers the line.
完美。
Perfection.
完美。
Perfection.
但真正绝妙的不只是这句台词。
But, also, the thing that kills is not just the line.
而是那种表情，就像在说'看来我也得来份她吃的东西'。
It's the look of, like, I guess I'll have to have what she's having.
她的表情看起来并不像是感到愉悦。
Like, her face is like it's not she does not look delighted.
她看起来有点嫌弃的样子。嗯哼。
She looks kinda disgusted Mhmm.
还有排斥。
And repulsed.
但这就像，我非得看看到底是怎么回事。
But it's like, I just need to see what this is all about.
之所以这么好笑是因为罗伯·雷纳一直不喊停。
It's as funny as it is because Rob Reiner keeps going.
对吧？
Right?
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
而且他明白这里面还藏着另一个笑点。
And he understands there's still another joke in there somewhere.
我想把所有的笑点都挖掘出来。
I wanna I wanna get all the jokes out.
所以我想把所有的笑点都挖掘出来。
So I wanna pause Yeah.
就
For just a
等一下。
moment.
嗯。
Mhmm.
然后谈谈你，我们该如何将你刚才描述的所有欢乐与喜悦并置
And talk about how you, how we should juxtapose all of the hilarity and joy that you just described
嗯。
Mhmm.
这些电影的核心特质。
That defines these films.
我们该如何一手托着这些美好，另一手却要面对他生命终结时的残酷与可怕。
How we're supposed to hold that in one hand and the brutality and the awfulness of how his life ends in the other.
关于这个死亡的可怕之处，对于数百万从未谋面、不认识罗伯·莱纳但被他作品触动过的人们来说，最可怕的是他的作品主题与他死亡的方式完全相反。
The terrible thing about this death, a terrible thing about it, in terms of the millions of people who never met, didn't know Rob Reiner, but whose lives were touched by his work, is that the work was about the opposite of how he died.
然而，你知道，这起骇人悲剧中最感人的一面是，根据所有报道，莱纳一家决心要帮助他们的儿子。
And yet, you know, the very moving aspect of this grisly tragedy is I mean, from all reports, you know, the Reiners were determined to, like, help their son.
对吧？
Right?
家庭生活的精神就是电影制作的精神。
The ethos of the family life is the ethos of the filmmaking.
明白吗？
You know?
有时这对电影不利，因为电影不想触及真正黑暗的领域。
Sometimes to the movie's detriment because the movies didn't wanna go to really dark places.
这些电影并非关于真正的黑暗面。
The movies weren't about the real darknesses.
对吧？
Right?
那些真正的困境。
The real difficulties.
它们关乎的是对我们本性中善良一面的信念，对我们更好自我的信念。
They were about the the attempt to believe in our better natures, our better selves.
而这正是他去世如此令人震惊之处。
And that is what is so shocking about his death.
但你知道，就像每当流行文化中伟大或重要人物去世时我至少会做的那样。
But, you know, I was you know, as one as at least I do when great or important people die in popular culture.
你经常被要求在纸面上为他们撰写悼文。
You were often tasked with eulogizing them in print.
是的。
Yeah.
于是你会回顾，看看他们生前境遇如何，或他们去世前如何被纪念，他们的作品如何被评价。
And so you go back and you look and see how things went for them in in real time or how they've been memorialized before their death, how their work is considered.
我发现，你知道，这是有史以来最伟大的电影项目之一
And I found, you know, one of the great tomes, one of the great movie projects ever
是的。
Yes.
你正拿着一本非常、非常
You're holding a very, very
厚的书。
thick book.
是戴维·汤普森的《电影传记辞典》。
Is David Thompson's biographical dictionary of film.
嗯。
Mhmm.
就在这里。
It's right here.
新的，我有一本新的传记
New I've got a new biographical
辞典
dictionary of
这是由一个人——戴维·汤普森撰写的电影界的《韦氏词典》。
It's the Merriam Webster's of movies written by one man, David Thompson.
他关于罗伯·莱纳的条目相当惊人，因为他对那些精彩电影的态度略显轻蔑。
And his Rob Reiner entry is is kind of amazing because he's a little more dismissive of the wonderful movies.
他懂，但又不完全懂。
He gets it, but he doesn't really.
显然，这些电影不合他的口味。
They're not for him, apparently.
但他在结尾处写下的这段话很有深度：
But here's what he says in his dismount, and it's deep.
作为导演，罗伯·莱纳似乎更被‘善良能拯救世界’这种观念所震撼或困扰。
As a director, Rob Reiner, he seemed more struck or pollaxed by the notion that niceness could save the world.
这个想法虽狭隘，却掩盖了太多关于人性和社会的真相。
It is a petty thought, but one that stifles so many human and social realities.
因此他的作品最终沦为空中楼阁，善恶标签都过于分明。
And so his work turns to pie in the sky with good and bad all too clearly labeled.
支撑他的是骨子里的正直感，以及对戏剧性场景的把握。
He's carried along by a fundamental decency and a sense of scenes that play.
但他的电影从一开始就充满可预测性，它们建立了一种怪异而愚蠢的正统观念——只要我们善待孩子，一切都会好起来。
But his films are predictable from their first moments, they begin to establish a weird, dumb orthodoxy, that if we're good to our kids, everything will be okay.
事实并非如此。
This is not true.
生活远比这更有趣。
Life is more interesting.
哇。
Wow.
我是说，罗伯·莱纳写下这段话时还充满活力。
I mean That is Rob Reiner was very alive when that was written.
我认为这具有惊人的预见性。
And I That think is terribly prescient.
我认为他作为人类最可爱之处——罗伯·莱纳被如此多不同人群深爱的原因——是他始终坚信人性本善，无论发生什么。
I think the thing that made him lovable, Rob Reiner, as a human being, the reason he was so beloved by so many different people, was that he really believed in the fundamental goodness of people no matter what.
要知道，父母背弃孩子是种不可能的处境。
You know, it's an impossible situation for a parent to turn your back on a child.
对。
Right.
而最终，他并没有那么做。
And in the end, he did not.
而他没这么做是因为，你知道，这些电影无论好坏都代表了这个男人，但最终是好的，因为它们展现了我们更好的那一面。
And he didn't because, you know, those movies were this man for better and for worse, but ultimately for better because they were about our better selves.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这是一个相信生命的男人。
This was a man who believed in life.
他相信人性。
He believed in people.
在我看来，这些电影就是这种信念的见证。
And the movies stand as a testament to that belief, as far as I'm concerned.
当它成功时，大概有十年时间，这个男人的作品持续引发共鸣，真的、真的、真的给人们带来了快乐
And when it clicked, and for, like, I'd say ten years, this man was humming, it really, really, really made people happy
嗯
Mhmm.
他创作的作品
The work that he made.
就是这样，你知道，有家庭悲剧的部分，也有快乐家伙的部分
And it's just that, you know, there's the family tragedy part, and then there is the the happy guy part.
他看起来就是那么快乐，像个大熊般的男人
He just seemed like such a joyful like, he was a big bear of a man.
你感觉他要么会拥抱你，要么你可以
And you just he seemed like either he was gonna hug you or you could
你会拥抱他
You're hug hug him him.
完全如此
Completely.
而他也会欣然接受
And he would be okay with that.
他的电影大部分也是如此。
His movies were like that too for the most part.
它们总是随时准备给你一个拥抱。
They were they're always there to hug you.
如果你想回抱他，请随意，因为这些作品现在就在HBO上。
And if you wanna hug him back, feel free because they're on HBO right now.
还有Netflix和亚马逊。
And Netflix and Amazon.
韦斯利，
Wesley,
非常感谢你。
thank you very, very much.
感激不尽。
Appreciate it.
迈克尔，不客气，我很遗憾必须由我来做这件事。
Michael, you're welcome, and I'm sorry that I'm sorry that I have to be here to do it.
我们马上回来。
We'll be right back.
以下是今天你还需要了解的其他消息。
Here's what else you need to know today.
周二，特朗普总统将美国旅行禁令范围扩大至五个新增国家，并对另外15个国家实施部分禁令。
On Tuesday, president Trump expanded The US travel ban to cover five more countries and added partial bans on 15 additional countries.
该禁令始于六月，最初涵盖阿富汗、缅甸和海地等国。
The bans, which began in June, started with countries including Afghanistan, Myanmar, and Haiti.
新增被禁国家包括马里、尼日尔、南苏丹和叙利亚。
The newly banned countries include Mali, Niger, South Sudan, and Syria.
巴勒斯坦人现在也被列入禁令。
Palestinians are also now banned.
受禁令影响者将无法移民或入境美国。
Those affected by the bans cannot immigrate to or enter The United States.
特朗普将被禁国家称为第三世界国家，并宣称其公民对美国民众构成威胁。
Trump has described the banned countries as third world and declared that their citizens pose a threat to Americans.
澳大利亚政府表示，上周末在犹太教庆祝活动上实施大规模枪击的枪手是受到ISIS的煽动。
And the Australian government said that the gunmen who carried out the mass shooting at a Jewish celebration over the weekend were motivated by ISIS.
警方称，他们在嫌疑人（一对父子）驾车前往大屠杀现场的车内发现了两面自制的伊斯兰国旗帜。
Police said that they found two homemade Islamic State flags in the car that the suspects, a father and son, had driven to the site of the massacre.
本期节目由迈克尔·西蒙·约翰逊、穆吉·萨迪和卢克·范德普洛格制作。
Today's episode was produced by Michael Simon Johnson, Mooj Sadie, and Luke Vanderploeg.
节目由布伦丹·克林肯伯格和迈克尔·贝努瓦编辑，配乐由黛安·王和丹·鲍威尔创作，工程由艾丽莎·莫克斯利负责。
It was edited by Brendan Klinkenberg and Michael Benoit, contains music by Diane Wong and Dan Powell, and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley.
以上就是今日要闻的全部内容。
That's it for the daily.
我是迈克尔·洛巴。
I'm Michael Lobar.
明天见。
See you tomorrow.
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