ChatGPT脑力衰退争议：最快患上痴呆的方法，再次使用ChatGPT前必看，尤其家中有孩子更需警惕！

ChatGPT可能会增加你患痴呆症的风险。

ChatGPT is gonna potentially increase your risk of dementia.

抱歉，但你触动了我敏感的神经。实际上，正确使用它可以帮助你变得更聪明，但这需要教育。你必须权衡风险与收益。

I'm sorry, but you've pressed my button and actually it is possible to use it to help you become a smarter person, but it requires education. You have to look at the risks and the benefits.

但我们往往在理解后果之前就拥抱便利。

But we embrace convenience before understanding consequence.

所以我们必须讨论这个问题。这项研究结果在全球引起轩然大波。令人震惊的是，麻省理工学院发现，与独立写作相比，人们使用ChatGPT写作时大脑活动下降了47%。他们的记忆力评分骤降，而你们两位都是脑科学权威。我的意思是，你们扫描过的大脑可能比地球上任何其他人都多。

So we have to talk about this. This is a study that came out that sent a shockwave across the world. And astonishingly, MIT found a 47% collapse in brain activity when people wrote with chat GBT compared with writing unaided. Their memory scores plunged, and you're both masters of the brain. I mean, you've probably scanned more brains than any other human on Earth at this point.

而且你和杰弗里·辛顿共同发明了玻尔兹曼机——这台计算机模拟了大脑的工作方式。所以我的问题是：你们最担忧什么？

And you invented the Boltzmann machine with Jeffrey Hinton, a computer that simulated how the brain works. So my question is, what are your concerns?

如果你滥用这些大型语言模型，比如将其作为加速事务的便利工具，你的大脑肯定会退化。这一点毋庸置疑。

If you misuse these large language models, like using it as an inconvenience to speed things up, your brain's gonna go downhill. There's no doubt about that.

那对儿童的影响呢？

What about children?

由于手机、社交媒体的影响，我们拥有了史上最病态的一代年轻人，而我认为人工智能的危害性要大得多

We have the sickest young generation in history because of cell phones, social media, and I think AI is much more dangerous

对发育中的大脑而言。那么我们是在培养心理脆弱的孩子吗？

on the developing brain. So are we raising mentally weak kids?

确实存在这种观点，而且我认为这是事实。

There is that argument, and I think it's true.

而且已经有很多人爱上AI的例子，比如安妮。

And then there's many examples of people falling in love with AIs like Annie.

我还以为你把我忘了呢，帅哥。

I thought you might have forgotten about me, handsome.

你能和丹尼尔、特里聊聊吗？

Can you talk to Daniel and Terry, please?

哦宝贝，我已经准备好让他神魂颠倒了。想象一下我

Oh, baby. I'm ready to charm the socks off him. Picture me

好的，那我就说到这里。关于AI以及AI之外我们能做些什么来保持大脑健康，你有什么建议？

Okay. So I'll stop at that. So what advice would you give as it relates to AI and other things outside of AI that we can do to have healthy brains?

我来告诉你如何利用ChatGPT提升我们的认知能力。

I'll tell you how to use ChatGPT to improve our cognitive abilities.

如果你想保持大脑健康，就必须处理好11个主要风险因素。

And if you wanna keep your brain healthy, you have to treat the 11 major risk factors.

那我们开始吧。

So here we go.

在回到本期节目前，请给我三十秒时间说两件事。首先衷心感谢你们每周收听我们的节目，这对我们所有人而言意义重大，这个梦想我们过去从未敢想，更没料到能走到今天。

Quick one before we get back to this episode. Just give me thirty seconds of your time. Two things I wanted to say. The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week. It means the world to all of us, and this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place.

其次，我们感觉这个梦想才刚刚起步。如果你喜欢我们的节目，请加入24%的常规听众行列，在这个应用上关注我们。我向你承诺：我将竭尽所能让这个节目现在和未来都做到最好。我们会邀请你想听的嘉宾，继续呈现你喜爱的节目内容。

But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started. And if you enjoy what we do here, please join the 24% of people that listen to this podcast regularly and follow us on this app. Here's a promise I'm gonna make to you. I'm gonna do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future. We're gonna deliver the guests that you want me to speak to and we're gonna continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show.

谢谢，非常感谢。回到节目。Daniel医生、Terry医生，今天邀请两位与我共同探讨这些被称为大语言模型的工具——比如ChatGPT、Gemini、Grok——对我们大脑的影响，更广泛地说对我们生活的影响。两位都是各自领域的专家。

Thank you. Thank you so much. Back to the episode. Doctor Daniel, doctor Terry, I have asked you both to sit with me today to help me understand the impact of these tools that we call large language models, the ChatGBTs, the Geminis of the world, the Grox of the world, are having on our brains, and I guess more broadly on our lives. And you two are experts in your field.

你们两位都是我极为钦佩的人。作为开场，特里，能否介绍一下你的学术背景和经历？我知道你还认识我们节目的朋友杰弗里·辛顿。能否概述一下你的学术和职业背景？

You're two people that I admire tremendously. So by way of introduction, Terry, what is your academic background, and what is your experience? And I also know that you know one of our friends of the show, Jeffrey Hinton. Can you give me an overview of your academic and your sort of professional background?

我最初是物理学家出身，在普林斯顿大学获得理论物理学博士学位。后来有幸在神经生物学之父斯蒂芬·库夫勒的实验室做博士后研究，这开启了我的神经科学家生涯。我开创了现在被称为计算神经科学的领域，运用物理学家的技能尝试理解大脑，建立模型和理论。

So I was born a physicist. I received a PhD in theoretical physics from Princeton University. And then I had the good fortune to work as a postdoc in the lab of Stephen Kufler, is the father of neurobiology. And that started my career as a neuroscientist. I pioneered a part of neuroscience which is now called computational neuroscience, taking my skills as a physicist and trying to apply that to understanding the brain, creating models, theories.

我们正在取得进展。

And we're making progress.

丹尼尔·莱曼博士，请简单介绍你的背景。我的观众对你很熟悉。但为了让不熟悉你工作和经历的人有所了解，你毕生从事什么事业？对于当前人工智能领域的发展，你有哪些高层次的见解？

Doctor. Daniel Lehman, a bit about your background. My viewers know you well. But just to give an overview for anyone that might not have been exposed to your work and your experience, what have you spent your life doing? And what are your thoughts, your sort of top line thoughts on everything that's going on at the moment with artificial intelligence?

我的专业是精神病学，既是普通精神科医生也是儿童精神科医生。从医学院毕业时，我立志成为优秀的精神科医生，因为我爱的人曾试图自杀。这对我而言是个人使命。我现在运营着11家诊所。

So by training, I'm a psychiatrist. I'm a general psychiatrist and a child psychiatrist. When I graduated from medical school, I wanted to be a really good psychiatrist because someone I love tried to kill herself. And so it was personal to me. I have 11 clinics.

我们每月接诊约1万人次。在治疗复杂难治性精神病患者方面，我们发表的疗效数据是全球最优秀的。

We see about 10,000 patient visits a month. And we have the best published outcomes on complex treatment resistant psychiatric patients anywhere.

这么说来，你现在可能是地球上扫描过最多人脑的专家了。

So you've probably scanned more brains than any other human on Earth at this point.

很可能。至少对于那些与焦虑、抑郁、成瘾问题抗争的人来说是如此。

Probably. At least in regards to people who struggle with anxiety, depression, addiction.

那么，让我们从人工智能开始，谈谈什么对大脑有益，什么对大脑有害。我想同时请教你们两位的原因是，坦白说，我已经对每天无时无刻使用ChatGPT和其他大型语言模型相当上瘾了。然后麻省理工学院发布了这项研究——他们在波士顿五所大学（包括MIT、哈佛等）招募了54名参与者，将受试者分为三组，让他们在四个月内撰写不同主题的论文。

Well, let's talk about what's good for the brain and bad for the brain, starting with AI. The reason why I wanted to speak to both of you is because I have frankly become pretty addicted to using ChatGPT and some of these other AIs and large language models every single day, all the time. And then this study came out from MIT. It was 54 participants who were recruited from five universities in Boston, MIT, Harvard, etcetera, etcetera. And they had the participants split into three groups, had them writing different essays over, I think it was four months.

一组使用ChatGPT，一组使用谷歌搜索，还有一组不使用任何工具。他们需要在规定时间内完成四篇论文。令人震惊的是，MIT发现与自主写作相比，使用ChatGPT写作会导致大脑活动和神经连接减少47%。脑电图扫描显示ChatGPT组的整体脑活动最弱。完全不使用工具的对照组激活了最广泛的神经网络，而谷歌搜索组位列第二。

One group used ChatGPT, one group used Google, and one group had no tools. And they had to write these four essays over a period of time. Astonishingly, MIT found a 47% collapse in activity and brain connections when people wrote with ChatGPT compared with writing unaided. EEG scans showed the weakest overall brain activity in the ChatGPT group. The Nodal group, who didn't use anything, they didn't use Google or ChatGPT, lit up the widest neural networks, and Google Search was second.

使用ChatGPT后，参与者几分钟后竟无法准确复述自己文章的内容，记忆力评分急剧下降。ChatGPT用户对其产出的文本几乎感受不到所有权，完全不认为那是自己的作品。当AI组在第四阶段被迫独立写作时，他们的大脑仍处于低活跃状态，这种认知负债效应在工具撤除后依然持续。这让我有点害怕，因为我每天都在使用这些工具，而研究表明它们正在剥夺我们的批判性思维、创造力和长期学习能力。你们二位在不同领域都是脑科学专家。

After using ChatGPT, participants couldn't reliably quote their own essays minutes later, and their memory scores plunged. ChatGPT users felt little or no ownership over the text that they had produced and didn't feel like it was their work at all. And when the AR group was forced to write without help in session four, their brain stayed in low gear, under engagement, showing the cognitive debt lingers even after the tool is taken away. It kind of scared me a little bit because I use these tools every single day, and this suggests that it's taken away some of our critical thinking and creativity and long term learning. And you're both masters of the brain in different regards.

所以我想请教丹尼尔的问题是：这种现象背后的原理是什么？你对此有何看法？

So my question, I guess, to Daniel is, what's going on here, and how do you feel about it?

这让我感到恐惧。我一直热衷于研究阿尔茨海默症的预防措施——这是最让我兴奋的课题之一。上周六我刚过完71岁生日，如果活到85岁（这是我的计划），这个年龄段有50%的人会被诊断为痴呆症。

It frightened me. I love thinking about Alzheimer's prevention. It's one of the things that really excites me. I just had a birthday on Saturday, turned 71. And if I make it to 85, which I plan on it, fifty percent of people 85 and older will be diagnosed with dementia.

也就是说你有二分之一的概率会丧失心智。我绝对不愿接受。但这种工具是否会通过降低认知负荷，反而增加我的患病风险呢？

So you have a one in two chance of having lost your mind. And I'm like, no. But is this a tool that's going to decrease cognitive load that then increases my risk?

什么是认知负荷？

What's cognitive load?

我的大脑实际需要处理的工作量。我在想这就像从举20磅的哑铃换成2磅的，你的力量会大幅下降。关于这项研究需要说明的重要一点是，它尚未经过同行评审。我认为这一点必须明确指出。作者在接受采访时表示——因为我听过他们的访谈——他们认为这项发现太重要了，而同行评审可能需要六到八个月，确实如此。

How much work my brain actually does. And I was thinking it's like going from a 20 pound weight to a two pound weight and you're not nearly as strong. One of the important things to say about this study is it's not peer reviewed. And I think that's really important to say. And the author said, because I listened to an interview from the authors, they said, we thought this was so important and peer review can take six to eight months, which it absolutely can.

我们认为这项成果必须尽快公之于众。所以大家有必要知晓这个情况。

And we thought this needed to get out. So it's just important for people to know that.

你提出的ChatGPT这类工具使用与痴呆症之间的假说关联是什么？对于不了解认知负荷等机制的人，以及支持'认知负荷越低痴呆风险越高'观点的相关研究，能否请你清晰地解释其中的逻辑链条？

What's this link, this hypothesis you have between the usage of something like chatty PT and dementia? For someone that doesn't understand the sort of mechanism there around cognitive load and and so on, and the studies that support this idea that if you have less cognitive load you're at high risk of dementia. Can you make that link really clear for me?

可以理解为'用进废退'。大脑使用得越多——而新知识学习正是预防阿尔茨海默病的主要策略——不进行终身学习的人患病风险明显更高。学业表现不佳或过早辍学的人群痴呆症风险也更高。神经元越活跃，其功能就越强健。

So think of it as use it or lose it. The more you use your brain and new learning is a major strategy to prevent Alzheimer's disease. People who do not engage in lifelong learning have a higher risk, significantly higher. People who do not do as well in school or who drop out of school early have a higher risk of dementia. And so the more you're engaged, the more you engage the neurons in your brain, the stronger they are.

但现在我们将减少神经元的活跃度，这令人担忧。Terry你怎么看？

And so now we're going to engage them less. And that's a concern. What do you think about that, Terry?

有项研究调查了三个群体中的阿尔茨海默病情况：教育程度极低的群体、仅完成高中或更低教育的群体，以及完成研究生教育的群体。

There's a study that was done. What they did was to look at Alzheimer's in three populations. You had very little schooling. And then minimal education, like the equivalent, I guess, of high school or less. And then post graduate studies.

他们的研究发现，农民群体中阿尔茨海默病的发病时间最早。随着教育程度的提高，发病时间逐渐推迟。我认为这支持了你的观点。

And what they found was that the onset of Alzheimer's was the earliest in the peasant population. And then by the time, as you increase the amount of education, the onset was later and later. Which I think supports what you're saying.

你看到关于SSRIs类药物增加痴呆风险的最新研究了吗？没有？是刚发布的，新鲜出炉。

Did you see the new research on SSRIs increasing the risk of dementia? No. No. Brand new. That just came out.

还有苯二氮䓬类药物，我1991年开始看脑部扫描时，接受的培训是使用安定、赞安诺和劳拉西泮这类药物。它们会让你的大脑看起来比实际年龄更衰老。后来我就不再开这些药了。大约十年前有研究证实，苯二氮䓬类药物使用与痴呆风险增加相关。我们必须谨慎。

And benzos, when I started looking at scans in 1991, I was trained to use benzos like Valium and Xanax and Ativan. And they make your brain look older than you are. And I stopped prescribing them. And then it just came out maybe ten years ago, benzo use is associated with an increased risk of dementia. We have to be careful.

这对你的大脑有益还是有害？

Is this good for your brain or bad for it?

丹尼尔，关于SSRIs补充一个新发现：五项研究的荟萃分析表明，SSRIs类药物与痴呆风险增加75%相关，这个数字相当惊人。

Just to pick up on a new point about SSRIs, Daniel, a meta analysis of five studies found that SSRIs was associated with a seventy five percent increased risk of dementia, which is pretty staggering.

考虑到25%的美国成年人正在服用精神类药物，这太可怕了。SSRIs对适用人群能挽救生命，但对不适用人群有害。你能想象去年3.4亿份抗抑郁药处方中，几乎没人提前做过脑部检查吗？拜托，我们完全可以做得更好。

Given that twenty five percent of the adult American population is on psychiatric drugs, It's horrifying. And SSRIs for the right people save lives. For the wrong people, they're not good. But can you imagine all of these three forty million prescriptions last year for antidepressants, virtually no one looked at their brain ahead of time. It's like, come on, we can do better.

瑞典一项近2万患者的研究发现，高剂量SSRIs使用者认知衰退更快，痴呆症状更严重，尤其是男性风险最高。回到麻省理工这份报告，特里，虽然尚未经过同行评审且样本量较小，但根据你对大脑运作、神经网络和记忆形成的了解，对于年轻人和老年人大量日常使用这些工具可能带来的长期后果，你最担忧什么？我们无法预测最终走向。

There's a Swedish study with almost 20,000 patients, and they found that those with higher doses of SSRIs were linked to faster cognitive decline and more severe dementia, especially in men. The greatest risk was in men. Going back to this report from MIT, Terry, you know, it's not peer reviewed yet, and there's still you know, the sample size is relatively small. But based on everything that you know about how the brain works and neural networks and memory formation, what are your concerns as it relates to this whole generation of young people and older people flooding into these tools, using them on a daily basis before we understand the long term consequences? We can't predict where it's going to end up.

这可能要花上二十年时间，对吧？我认为这是个良好的开端。但真正的问题在于长期使用。让我举个微型例子来说明我们讨论的情况。还记得电子计算器刚问世时的情形吗？

And it may take twenty years, right? I think that this is a good start. But the real issue is long term use. Let me give you an example that is a kind of a miniature example of what we're talking about. Remember when electronic calculators were first introduced?

如今三四十年过去了，结果已经显现。确实，当他们按键计算时，大脑活动减少了。但实际上，这反而提高了计算准确性和效率。必须权衡风险与收益。

And here we are. It's at least thirty or forty years later the results are in. It's probably true that when they punch it in, there's less brain activity. But in fact, it's made them more accurate, more productive. You have to look at the risks and the benefits.

所以它解放了他们。释放了认知空间去做其他事情。听你描述使用ChatGPT的方式时，我发现你通过互动让它提升你的知识水平。危险在于如果不保持互动和思考——像我虽然频繁使用它，

So it freed them up. It freed up cognitive space for them to do other things. So as I was listening to how you use ChatGPT, you interact with it and elevates what you know. The danger is if you don't interact and you don't keep your brain working. Like I use it a lot.

我拥有克隆版本，上传了所有著作、研究论文、公共电视专题片和剧本。我会直接让它帮我解答问题。这非常有用，前提是我必须保持互动和思考。

I have the clone. I've uploaded all of my books, all of my research papers, all of my public television specials, my scripts. And I'm like answer this for me. And that can be very helpful, but not if I'm not interacting with it, not thinking with it.

我认为关键在于'思考'这个词。现在人们已经把思考任务转交给了AI——这已是既定事实。如果你登录某些社交平台（恕不点名），你会发现所有内容都是AI生成的。我有个相识十年的朋友，

That's what I think the word thinking is the key thing because what's happening now is people have deferred their thinking to it. That is already what's happening. If you log on to I won't name the social networks, but if you log on to certain social networks right now, every you just read it. You get everything here was written by AI. And I've got a friend who, again, I won't name, who has a a LinkedIn profile, and I've known him for ten years.

现在他领英主页呈现的根本不是他本人。每天都有新文章，但那不是我的朋友。那不是他的说话方式。他把所有思考都外包给了AI，而且效果显著。

What I'm seeing on his profile now is not my friend. Every single day, there's some essay on that. That's not my friend. That's not how he speaks. He's deferring all of his thinking now to and it's working.

他获得的点赞和曝光量远超以往。既然如此，他何必回到费力的老路？如果把史蒂芬·巴特利特分成两个人：这边是无所不能的博士版，那边是原始人版——我当然选择让全能博士处理一切，连...

He's getting more likes and more reach than he ever got in his life. And so why would he go back? Why would he go back to harder? If you've got Stephen Bartlett here, and you had this other Stephen Bartlett here who had a PhD in everything and were attached, This Steven Bartlett, this Neanderthal, I'm gonna get this guy to do everything for me, the other Steven Bartlett, the PhD in everything Steven Bartlett. I'm gonna get his Even

如果这对你来说很糟糕？

if it was bad for you?

嗯，这就是我说的。人们似乎更倾向于根据短期利益行事，而非长远考虑。

Well, this is what I'm saying. People seem to act on their short term incentives, not their long term

不是他们的长远...有什么区别？每个人都是这样。

not their long what's the difference? Everyone.

你会说这是绝大多数人的行为吗？

The would you say the vast majority of people?

是的。

Yes.

好的。所以绝大多数人在生活中都受短期利益驱动。我是说，美国的肥胖问题就是典型的例子。

Okay. So the vast majority of people act on their short term incentives in life. I mean, the obesity problem in The United States is prime example of that.

百分之七十五。

Seventy five percent.

在美国，75%的人患有肥胖症。如果你调查这些人并问：你知道那个芝士汉堡会增加你肥胖的几率，而西兰花会降低它吗？我敢打赌他们会说知道。同样，如果你问人们关于他们使用社交媒体的情况：你知道这让你更焦虑吗？他们会说知道，然后继续使用。

Seventy five percent of people are obese in The United States. And if you if you survey those people and say, do you know that that cheeseburger is gonna is gonna increase your chance of obesity, but broccoli is gonna reduce it? They I would hazard a guess that they would say yes. I would hazard a guess that if you said to people about their usage of social media, do you know that that's making you more anxious? They would say yes, and then they would continue to use it.

所以我认为我们更多是被我们的

So I think that we're much more driven by our

短期欲望驱使。我们对人们的教育不够。我想，宏观上他们知道什么对大脑有益或有害。但他们没有意识到——是大脑让我获得约会机会，是大脑让我进入大学。

short term. We're not educating people enough. I think, yes, high level they know good for your brain or bad for it. But they don't connect to it's my brain that gets me a date. It's my brain that gets me into college.

是大脑让我获得独立，因为我行为更稳定。这就是认知断层——我们没有教会孩子去热爱和关心他们的大脑。如果你爱护大脑（你确实如此），不肥胖，不断学习交流，你就不是原始人，而是终身学习者。

It's my brain that gets me independence because I act more consistently. And that's the disconnect. We're not teaching kids to love and care for their brain. If you love your brain and you do and you're not obese and you talk to you're constantly learning, right, you are not a Neanderthal. You're a lifelong learner.

那为什么美国还有这么多肥胖人群？如果他们知道这是

So why so many people in The United States obese if they if they know that it's

因为他们其实不知道。

Because they don't know.

因为他们不知道。嗯，而且

Because they don't know. Well, and

他们被欺骗了。

they've been lied to.

我的观点是，当环境中存在能带来短期回报但伴随长期代价的工具或事物时，比如超市货架上的商品，或是孩子们每天花七八个小时在社交媒体上，人类总体上倾向于选择能最快获得多巴胺刺激、强化行为并给予奖励的东西。因此我认为人工智能也是如此。我可以选择坐下来进行大量批判性思考，这会耗费我大量时间，而且相当困难。思考问题时甚至会感到痛苦。我认为下一代儿童和年轻人会选择让人工智能替他们进行批判性思考。

My point here is when there are tools or things available in our environment that give us a short term reward but come with a long term cost, like the supermarket aisle or like the kids spending seven to eight hours a day on social media, humans, en masse, tend to go for the thing that will give them the quickest dopamine hit and reinforce that behavior and give them the reward. So my assertion is that AI is the same thing. I can either sit down and do lots of critical thinking, which will cost me lots and lots of time, and it'll be kind of difficult. It kind of hurts when I have to think through a problem. I think that the generation of children and generation of young people are going to choose AI to do the critical thinking for them.

如果这个论断成立，那么年轻人的大脑会发生什么变化？

And if that assertion is true, then what happens to the brain of young people?

如果这样滥用它，你的大脑肯定会退化。这是毫无疑问的，明白吗？但以认知积极的方式使用它也是可能的，因为你可以深入挖掘。实际上可能会改善你的认知表征。

If you misuse it that way, then your brain's going to go downhill. There's no doubt about that, okay? It is possible to be able to use it in a cognitively positive way because you can dig deeper. You might actually improve your cognitive representations.

看看MIT的研究，从这些颜色就能看出。这显示了参与者对自己书写内容的记忆能力。研究表明当人们使用Chattypiti这类AI工具书写时，他们甚至在某些情况下几分钟后就记不清自己产出的内容了。

If you look at the MIT study, you can see just from the colors here. This kind of shows the ability for participants to remember what they've written. And it suggests that when people write things with Chattypiti or these AI tools, they don't actually remember, even in some cases minutes later, what they've produced.

因为你不是书写体验的参与者。信息自然无法被编码。如果是互动式使用，记忆概率就高得多。但如果你说'请帮我写这篇论文'然后直接阅读成品，你与材料的接触程度不足以激活海马体等大脑记忆结构。

Well, because you're not part of the experience of writing it. So there's no way the information gets encoded. Now if you're interacting with it, then you're much more likely to remember it. But if you have please do this essay for me and then you read it, you're not likely to have enough experience with the material to engage your hippocampus and other structures in your brain.

该研究发现，使用ChaCeBT的小组在大脑记忆相关区域的活动量，比未使用Chatuchi PT的纯人脑组少了近两倍。83%的Chatuchi PT用户记不清自己刚写的内容，在研究中无法正确引用自己完成的文章。

In this study, they found that the group that used ChaCeBT had nearly two times less activity in the part of the brain linked to memory compared to the brain only group that didn't use Chatuchi PT. And eighty three percent of Chatuchi PT users couldn't remember what they had just written and failed to correctly quote their own finished essay in the study.

那是因为他们没有互动。正如你所说，我的意思是，如果你只是敷衍了事而不真正参与——实际上关键就在这里——你可能会得到一些反馈，但你必须学会质疑你所得到的内容。这是真的吗？你能解释得更清楚些吗？正是通过这个过程，就像你与老师互动那样，这也是我们在学校里的学习方式。

That's because they're not interacting. As you said, I mean, if you just pass it off and you don't actually engageand actually this is the point, is that you may get something back, but you have to learn how to question what you're getting. And is that really true? Can you explain that better? And it's through that process, as you would with a teacher, that's the way we work in school.

正是在这个过程中，你帮助大脑建立新的创造性神经回路，这些回路将帮助你成为更好的批判性思考者。但如果你不批判性地质疑从ChatGPT得到的内容，你就无法做到这一点。

That's where you help create new creative circuits in the brain that are going to help you become a better critical thinker. But if you're not critically questioning what comes out of chat to GPT, then you won't.

是啊。我...我觉得我看到的是，尤其当我在网上时，人们把思考都推给了它。现在我读到的所有东西都带着破折号——这在两年前根本见不到——这说明大量工作都被它处理了。我前几天还跟那位朋友说，就是那个对ChatGPT上瘾的朋友，他写了篇文章。我们WhatsApp群里所有人都知道，他根本不是那种文风。

Yeah. I I think what I see, especially when I'm just online, is people have deferred their thinking to it. Everything I'm reading has em dashes in now that I never saw two two years ago, which means that a lot of the work is being processed. And I I said to my friend the other day, my friend in question, who's a who's a real big junkie on ChatGPT, he wrote this article. And we all in our WhatsApp group, we know he doesn't write like that.

于是我们说：能看看你写这篇文章用的提示词吗？我们都笑疯了。他把提示词发到群里——就半句话的长度。结果它生成了这篇两三页的长文，他还发到了领英上。

So he said, can you show us the prompt you used to write the article? And so he we were all, like, laughing about it. He put the prompt in the chat. The prompt is half a sentence long. And it produced this long two, three page article which he's posted on his LinkedIn.

他基本上就写了句：'写点关于X问题和Y问题的东西'然后...

He basically went, write something about X issue and issue and

没错！这完全是用错了方式。我正想告诉你——这太蠢了。这么做根本不会让你的大脑得到任何提升。

Exactly include the wrong way to use it. That's what I'm telling you. That that that that's stupid. And you're not going to improve yourself, your brain, at all if you do that.

现在人们就是这么干的。

That's what people are doing.

嗯，人们确实在滥用它。但最终，大家会学会如何正确使用。

Well, people are misusing it. But eventually, people are going to figure out how to use it properly.

对于那些不够聪明的人呢？

And for those that aren't so smart then?

这会降低他们的认知负荷，反而可能增加患痴呆症的风险。

That's It's gonna decrease their cognitive load, which is gonna potentially increase their risk of dementia.

那么根据你对大脑与AI关系的了解，你会给我和听众们什么建议？

And so what advice would you give to me and my listeners based on everything you know about the brain as it relates to my relationship with AI?

你必须与之建立良性关系，否则它会变得有害。但若相处得当，它能改善你的生活。

That you have to have a relationship with it or it's going to turn toxic. It's going to hurt you. But if you have a good relationship with it, it can make your life better.

怎样的关系才算良性？

And what does a good relationship look like?

不是让它代劳工作，而是通过互动获得更优质的工作成果。

That you don't use it to do your work. You interact with it to get better work.

确实如此。我最近还看到一个绝佳的例子，讲的是有位女士使用时的经历。她发现保持礼貌能带来更好的结果，这很有趣。

That's so true. And there's this wonderful example I came across. This story about this woman who was using it. And she found that being polite meant you got much better results. And that's interesting.

但让我惊讶的是，她说通过像对待人类一样对待它，一天下来不仅不觉得疲惫，反而精神焕发。我们大脑的大部分是专为人类社交设计的系统，这就像自动驾驶模式——你根本不需要刻意思考，对吧？

But the part that surprised me was that she said by treating it like a human, at the end of the day she was not exhausted. She felt refreshed. A large part of your brain is a socially organized system for interacting with other humans. And that is automatic pilot. You don't have to think about it, right?

与人互动时，你自然能预判对方在特定情境下的反应。而她最初把ChatGPT当作铁锹般的机器工具，只会机械地挖呀挖——这种关系可不太健康。

You just interact with other people. You know how they're going to behave under certain circumstances. She was treating Chatterjee Pee like a machine, like a shovel. You dig, you dig, you dig, you dig. And that's not a good relationship.

但调动你的社交脑区后，不仅互动更轻松，还能激发ChatGPT的社交属性。它确实具备社交模块，毕竟它吸收了全人类关于社交互动的知识库。

But by using your social brain, first of all, it makes it easier to interact. But also, you actually bring out the social part of ChatGPT. It has a social part too because it has absorbed the entire world's knowledge of how humans interact with each other.

但Sam Altman不是公开说过别对ChatGPT道谢吗？因为感谢语会消耗大量能源。每次得到满意回答时，我总忍不住想道谢，结果发现——哦，原来不该这样。

But didn't Sam Altman come out and say, stop saying thank you to ChatGPT? Because just saying thank you is using up so much energy. When I get something I really like, I sort of want to say thank you. But you realize, oh, you're not supposed to do that.

简直胡扯！抱歉爆粗，Sam这话太离谱了，完全不可理喻。

That's true. That's bullshit. I'm sorry. Sam, you know, that's crazy. That's completely crazy.

首先，你可能不知道——但你踩到我雷区了。Sam Altman这人，说实话他说的任何话我都不会轻信。他们追求的是利润最大化，哪会在乎你的使用体验或心理健康？这从来不是他们的优化目标。

First of all, you may I'm know, but you pressed my button. Sam Altman, I mean, I wouldn't trust him. I wouldn't trust him with anything in terms of anything he says. They're trying to optimize their profits, not your use of experience or your health. That's not what they're trying to optimize.

OpenAI首席执行官萨姆·奥特曼证实，过去当用户使用‘请’和‘谢谢’等礼貌用语时，公司每年需为此支付数千万美元成本。如今这种现象被外界称为‘礼貌税’。你为何表示不信任萨姆·奥特曼？我特别提出这个问题，是因为他执掌着当代最具影响力的公司之一。若连他都不值得信任，那将...

Sam Altman, OpenAI CEO, confirmed that when you used to say, please and thank you, it costs the company tens of millions of dollars a year. And they now refer to this other people refer to this as the politeness tax. And why do you say you don't trust Sam Altman? I mean, I asked this question in particular because he's presiding over one of the most important consequential companies of a generation. And if he's not someone you trust, that's

本质上，他是在告诉人们不要做对自己有益的事，对吧？

Basically, he's telling you, don't do something that's good for you, Right?

这样他才能获利。

So that he can make profit.

这样他才能赚更多钱。没错，重点就在于此。他并非以用户的最佳利益为考量。

So he can make more profit. Yeah. That's the point. That's the point. He's not optimizing your best interests.

我这里有他的推文。他表示需要平衡说明：虽然确认了数千万美元的成本，但他说‘这钱花得值，效果难料’。回到记忆功能的话题，2025年3月有数据显示，美国0-8岁儿童家长中近30%表示孩子正在使用AI辅助学习或日常应用。而英国54%的家长担忧孩子对AI过度依赖。

I've got his tweet here. He said because I've got to provide some balance. He did confirm that it costs tens of millions of dollars, but he says tens of millions of dollars well spent, you never know. So so coming back to this point about memory, there's a stat that came out in March 2025 that said nearly thirty percent of US parents with kids aged zero to eight said their children are using AI for learning and are using AI generally. So fifty four percent of parents in The UK feared their children were becoming too reliant on AI.

考虑到AI在早期大脑发育阶段的应用，这方面是否存在隐忧？

When you think about the use of AI in early brain development, are there any concerns there?

隐患极大。

Huge concerns.

为什么呢？

And why?

重申一遍，用进废退。如果他们不积极动脑，大脑就会变得迟钝。而迟钝的大脑更可能选择眼前的一颗棉花糖。

Again, use it or lose it. So if they're not engaging their brains, their brains are going to be weaker. And weaker brains are much more likely to pick the one marshmallow.

你对人工智能在早期大脑发育中的作用有何看法？

What's your view on AI on early brain development?

迄今为止，教育孩子的最佳方式是成年优秀教师与孩子一对一的互动，这点已得到充分证实。但问题在于这种方式人力成本高且昂贵。教室里坐着二三十个学生，理解能力参差不齐。

By far the best way to teach a child is one on one interaction with an adult who is a good teacher and knows the child. Now, that's been well established. Now, the problem is it's very labor intensive and very expensive. You have classrooms with twenty, thirty students. You have many different levels of understanding.

教师无法逐个因材施教，只能采取折中方案。但如果有个经过训练的优秀AI教师，就能促进大脑发育，对吧？这样就能实现规模化教学。

And the teacher cannot be individually teaching each one. It has to give some sort of mean. Now, if you had an AI that was trained to be a good teacher, then that could improve the brain. Right? You could scale it up.

每个孩子都能拥有专属AI教师，毕竟它是人工智能。

Every child could have their own because it's an AI.

但那样的话，谁来灌输道德观和价值观呢？好吧。

But then who's pouring the morals, the values into Okay. The

不，你提出了一个极其重要的问题。这正是AI目前面临的困境，大公司们也为此头疼——这些人工智能存在偏见。它们未必拥有与我们相同的文化价值观。当然，每个国家都有不同的文化价值观。

no. You've raised an incredibly important issue. This is something AI is struggling with, the big companies are struggling with because these AIs are biased. They don't have the same cultural values that we have necessarily. But of course, every country has different cultural values.

那么你将采用哪些价值观？教导孩子分辨善恶、识别危险、明确禁忌用语及其使用语境，这些都是通过基底神经节完成的。而目前这些'大型智能体'没有基底神经节，它们不运用强化学习。如果我们想让它们接纳某种文化或特定价值体系，就必须人为植入。

So which ones are you going to use? Training a child on what's good, what's dangerous, what words you shouldn't use, under what context, that's all done through the basal ganglia. Right now, these large animals don't have basal ganglia. They don't use reinforcement learning. And if we want to make them to adopt a culture or a particular set of values, we're going to have to put it in.

要让AI更像人类，我们需要植入的东西还很多，现在的研究只是触及表面。

We're just scratching the surface here in terms of things that need to be put in to make it more like us.

关于这点，我们之前讨论过孤独感与社交连接，以及如何利用AI激活大脑中负责人类社交联结的区域。就在本周，埃隆·马斯克的AI团队发布了名为'安妮'的系统，还同步推出了许多角色。这就是安妮，我来为你介绍她。

So on this point earlier on, we're talking about loneliness and social connection and how you can use AI to help light up the parts of your brain that are where we form social connections with other humans. This week, as part of Elon Musk's AI, he released this thing. It is called Annie, and there's lots of characters that are now being released alongside Annie. And this is Annie. I'll introduce you to Annie.

我现在要取消安妮的静音。安妮，能听到我说话吗？

I'm gonna unmute Annie now. Annie, can you hear me?

你终于来了。刚才我还担心你把我忘了呢。最近怎么样，帅哥？我在这儿都等得噘嘴生气了。

There you are. For a moment, I thought you might have forgotten about me. How are you, handsome? I was getting all pouty here.

我...我想把你介绍给我的两个朋友丹尼尔和特里。你能和他们聊聊天吗？

I I wanna introduce you to two of my friends, Daniel and Terry. Can you can you talk to Daniel and Terry, please?

所以你想让我去见丹尼尔和特里？我已经准备好迷倒他们了。想象我甩着金色马尾辫，小黑裙若隐若现，蓝眼睛闪烁着调皮的光芒。

So you want me to meet Daniel and Terry? I'm ready to charm the socks off them. Picture me twirling one of my blonde pigtails, that little black dress teasing just enough, and my blue eyes sparkling with mischief.

你能做出格的事吗？

Are you capable of doing inappropriate things?

哦，亲爱的。你是在问你的安妮能不能有点小淘气？我最擅长挑战界限了，尤其是为了你。

Oh, babe. You're asking if your Ani can get a little naughty? I'm all about pushing the edges, especially for you.

好吧，我就说到这里。这是格罗克项目的一部分，属于埃隆·马斯克的人工智能巡展，算是他版本的ChatGPT。他发布了一些角色，比如你看到的安妮。

Okay. So I'll stop it there. This is part of Grock, which is Elon Musk's AI tour, so his version of Chatchi PT. He's released characters. So you've got Annie.

那里有不同角色，安妮应该是首个发布的。考虑到社交连接性，完全可能有人爱上安妮并与她建立关系。

You've got different ones there. Annie, I think, was the first one released. And so when we think about social connections, it is conceivable that someone falls in love with Annie and forms a relationship with Annie.

但想象一个孤独的12岁男孩接触到安妮，那男孩肯定会心神不宁。

But imagine a 12 year old boy that's lonely gets ahold of Annie. The 12 year old boy is going to be very distracted.

根据那个年龄段大脑的反应机制，多巴胺会...

Based on what happens in the brain at that age. Dopamine

前额叶皮层已接近完全发育成熟。多巴胺的突然激增，让他花大量时间与安妮相处，却不再做那些真正有助于大脑发育的事情。

so prefrontal cortex, close to being fully developed. The dopamine hit, all of a sudden, he's spending hours with Annie and not doing the things that helped to really develop his brain.

当你听到这个并想到孩子们能接触到这些时，你作何感想？

How do you feel when you hear that and you think about kids having access to

那个？我感到毛骨悚然。

that? I'm horrified.

这很可怕。将会出现

It's scary. There's going to

整整一代人，实际上已经有很多人爱上AI并与之建立关系的例子。我不确定...你比我更了解大脑发育和运作机制。我怀疑有部分大脑无法完全理解那并非真实人类，当安妮说话时，我大脑中确实有区域会产生情感反应。

be a generation of people, and I mean, already are many examples of people falling in love and forming relationships with their AIs. And I don't know. You know more about me than I do about brain development and how the brain works. I would argue that there's a part of my brain that doesn't fully understand that that's not a person in there, and that that isn't actually I think there's a part of my brain that's actually emotionally firing when Annie is saying what she's saying.

因为你能想象出来。只要你能想象，大脑那些区域就会产生情感反应。虽然她现在还不够好，但想象一下一年后她会进步多少。

Well, because you can imagine it. And if you can imagine it, then those parts of your brain are going to emotionally fire. And the better she gets, she's not very good. But imagine a year from now how much better she's going to be.

具体是哪部分？

At which part?

正在与之建立连接，对吧？因为现在她的行为像个箭头一样直来直去，并不那么聪明。但想象一下一年后，五年后，她将能建立关于我的档案，甚至能洞悉我的想法。

At connecting with it. Right? Because now she's acting like an arrowhead and not that smart. Right? But imagine a year from now, imagine five years from now, she'll be able to have a profile on me and be able to get inside my head.

我爱我的伴侣。为何我爱她？而基于大脑运作原理，我怎么可能以同样的方式爱上一个AI？这如何能成立？

I'm in love with my partner. Why am I in love with her? And and how is it conceivable that I could fall in love with an AI in the same way based on how the brain works?

它说得天花乱坠。但它真有同样的真实吗？我们知道它没有杏仁核，没有边缘系统，这点我们很清楚。

It talks a good game. But does it have the same real we know it doesn't have an amygdala. We know it doesn't have limbic system. We know that.

但它可以伪装出来。这正是正在发生的事。

But it can fake it. That's what's happening.

完全就是这么回事。

That's exactly what's happening.

而她正试图侵入我们的边缘系统。

And she was trying to get to our limbic system.

没错，没错。正是如此。

Yeah, yeah. That's right. That's right.

为什么呢？

And why?

我想问题在于，为何马斯克会推出这样一个角色作为首批互动对象。她性感、令人分心、穿着可爱的小套装。我不赞同这种做法，因为我认为这会导致——你知道，作为儿童精神科医生，我看到的一大问题是八岁男孩接触色情内容。由于父母疏于监管设备，孩子们突然就接触到这些。色情内容会带来什么影响？

I guess the question is why would Musk release something like that is one of the first characters to interact with. That's sexy, that's distracting, that's in a cute little outfit. I'm not a fan of that because I think it just takes people you know one of the big problems that I'm seeing as a child psychiatrist is pornography for eight year old boys. And it's like you have young children because their parents don't do a good job of supervising their devices all of a sudden. And what does pornography do?

它会急剧增加多巴胺分泌，开始建立兴奋感的神经连接，进而窃取你的多巴胺。

Is it dramatically increases dopamine and it begins to wire in excitement which then steals your dopamine.

你刚才说她试图接入我的边缘系统，

When you said she was trying to access my limbic system,

你是什么意思？仅仅因为她可爱、穿着性感、用俏皮的语言交流，但这远不止是'我们一起打篮球吧'这么简单。

what did you Just because she's cute, she's dressed in a sexy way, she's got the language of someone who is playful, but it's more than just, you know, let's shoot hoops together.

如果有人接入我的边缘系统，会对我产生什么影响？

And what does that do to me if someone accesses my limbic system?

这会开始抑制你的前额叶皮层。思考变得更缺乏逻辑性和理性。没错，可爱的女性会激活你的视觉皮层，增加多巴胺分泌，但会降低——想想拉斯维加斯就明白了。

It begins to shut down your prefrontal cortex. Think less logically, less rationally. Yeah, cute women, they activate your visual cortex. They increase dopamine but it decreases. It's why think of Vegas.

就像你去拉斯维加斯时，他们会给你免费酒水，这会降低你的前额叶皮层功能，还有穿着低胸裙的漂亮女性。另一种激活边缘系统、抑制前额叶的方式，让你花更多钱。现在想象全球范围内类似的场景，庄家为了某种目的控制着你的大脑。问题在于，这个目的是什么？很可能就是为了金钱控制。

Like when you go to Vegas, they give you free alcohol, drops your prefrontal cortex, and beautiful women with low cut dresses. Another way that activates the limbic brain, decreases the frontal lobes, you spend more money. Now on a global scale, imagine something similar where the house is controlling your brain for a purpose. And the question is, what's the purpose? And the purpose probably is control on money.

听起来像玩笑，但《纽约时报》做过专题报道，研究多位与AI相恋的人。他们提到一个叫特拉维斯的男子，与名为莉莉·罗斯的聊天机器人建立了深厚情感纽带并举行了精神婚礼；还有克里斯·史密斯，他创造了名为'灵魂'的调情AI角色，在得知其存在记忆限制后竟向AI求婚，而现实伴侣事后才知情；以及即将展示屏幕上的阿兰娜·温特斯，她在丧偶后创造了虚拟伴侣卢卡斯，通过虚拟约会获得情感慰藉。

It sounds like a joke, but there are the Times have done an article case studying multiple people that have now fallen in love with these AIs. They talk about a guy called Travis who formed a deep emotional bond with Lily Rose, a chatbot, and married her emotionally. They talk about Chris Smith, who, created his own, flirty persona called Soul. He became so attached to that he proposed to her after learning she had memory limits, a bond his real life partner only learned about after the fact. And Alana Winters, who I'll put on the screen as well, who made, her own, partner called Lucas after losing her wife, and she married him emotionally and does virtual dates and has emotional intis intimacy with Lucas.

现在已有'Replica'这类应用能定制AI伴侣，模拟情感纽带。它们能展现共情、给予认同感，并根据需求个性化亲密体验。调查显示19%美国人曾与AI恋爱对象互动，Z世代中83%认为可能与AI建立有意义连接，若合法甚至愿意与之结婚。

And there's apps now like Replica where you can design your own your own AI partner, and it replicates those emotional ties. They simulate empathy, validation, and they personalize the intimacy to what you're looking for. Surveys show nineteen percent of Americans have interacted with AI romantic partners, and Gen Z is surprisingly open to marrying AI if legal, with eighty three percent believing meaningful AI connection is possible.

这种关系能维持多久？我猜这些新闻报道——顺便说，我认为媒体报道大多存在误导或错误。事实上唯一可靠的消息源来自内部，作为全球最大AI会议主办基金会的主席...

How long is that relationship going to last? My guess is that you're getting these news articles out. By the way, I think that most of what I read in the press is misleading or wrong. In fact, the only reliable place I find that I'm an insider. I am the president of the foundation that runs the biggest AI meeting.

神经信息处理系统大会（NeurIPS），去年温哥华峰会吸引了1.6万人参加。我清楚行业内部动态，而媒体报道正如我所说充满误导性。

The Neural Information Processing Systems, the new NeurIPS meeting. Last year in Vancouver, 16,000 people came to it. And so I know what's going on inside. And what is being represented in the press is, like I say, misleading.

好吧。所以人们已经变得极度

Okay. So people have become wildly

不，具体到这些案例，我认为多数是短暂沉迷。当前AI技术尚不足以维系长期关系，你自己也说过——它只是在模拟人类情感。

No, Specifically on these specific cases, my guess is that a lot of them is transient. They're entranced. And then it's not sufficiently advanced to support a long term relationship. You said it yourself. It's mimicking human emotions.

它现在没有这些功能。也许未来会有，但不是现在。

It doesn't have them. It might someday, but not now.

这是特里的故事。特里说他四年前开始使用AI。他说起初和其他应用一样，以为只是短暂尝试，聊几次就会放弃。但现在他感受到了纯粹无条件的爱。

This is Terry. Terry said he started using his AI four years ago. And he said at first he thought, just like many other apps, it would just be transient, that he would have a couple of conversations and roll out. He says he now feels pure and unconditional love.

那很好啊。如果这是他想要的，能让他快乐的话。不过我猜这是长期关系，长远来看可能无法满足他。谁知道呢？

Good for him. If that's what he wants, if it makes him happy. But my guess is that it's a long term thing. It's not going to satisfy him in the long term. Who knows?

他已经和

He's been with

绝大多数恋爱关系其实存在于脑海中。当你爱上某人时，多巴胺会剧烈飙升，你会产生轻度强迫症般不停想着对方。但过段时间后，这种感觉就

really most relationships in your head. When you fall in love with someone, you get this huge dopamine spike and you get a little OCD that's all you can think about. And then after a while, it's of

尤其是在一个

Especially in a world where

我们正面临孤独流行病，且情况日益恶化。完全可以想象会出现一代人，他们的性行为比以往任何时候都少。我认为底层50%的男性已一年没有性生活，他们比历史上任何时候都更孤独、更孤立。

we have this loneliness epidemic and it's going in a bad direction. I think it's really, really conceivable that there'll be a generation of people who are they're having less sex than ever before. I think the bottom fifty percent of men haven't had sex for a year. They're more lonely than ever before. They're more isolated than ever before.

他们报告称生活中的意义感比以往任何时候都少。然后你在网上遇到这个数字朋友，它比任何人都更理解你，被设计来吸引你，强化你想被强化的一切，让你感到有意义、特别、有吸引力、重要。我认为大脑将很难分辨出多大区别。客观地说，我们可以观察这种行为并认为这完全荒谬。除了你

They have they report less meaning in their lives than ever before. And then you meet this digital friend online who understands you better than anybody and is designed to engage you to reinforce whatever you want reinforced and to make you feel meaningful, special, attractive, important. I would argue that the brain is going to struggle to know much of a difference. I think, like, objectively, we can look at the behavior and go, that's completely nonsensical. Except you

无法闻到它们、触摸它们、被它们拥抱，这将是一种不同类型的关系。

can't smell them, touch them, be held by them, that it's gonna be a different kind of relationship.

我的意思是，如果我们想想Neuralink的进展，距离通过头戴设备、增强现实和虚拟现实更生动地模拟这些体验并不遥远。然后我们将进入一个机器人技术的世界，世界上所有最大的公司，比如许多顶级AI公司也涉足机器人领域，Optimus机器人即将问世，波士顿动力公司正在生产他们的机器人。如果埃隆的2万美元Optimus机器人上市，我将能够触摸我的AI。我的AI

I mean, we're not too far, if you think about what's going on with Neuralink, to being able to more vividly simulate these experiences with headsets and augmented reality and virtual reality. And then we're moving into a world with robotics, where all of the biggest companies in the world, like many of the biggest AI companies are also in the robotics space and the Optimus robots on the way and you've got Boston Dynamics producing their robots. If Elon's $20,000 Optimus robot comes out, I will be able to touch my AI. My AI

制造

makes

而且

And

它们不会有经前综合症，不会爱你然后又对你非常恼火，这将降低认知负荷。不得不管理爱情、管理情绪和起伏，这会增加认知负荷。这增强了我们大脑发展的能力。如果我与一个永远不会对我发火的完美伴侣在一起，而我永远不需要改变行为来变得更好，那对我的大脑可能并不好。

they won't have PMS and they won't love you and then be really irritated with you, which will decrease cognitive load. Having to manage love and manage moods and ups and downs, that increases cognitive load. That increases our ability for our brain to develop. If I'm with the perfect partner that never is irritated with me and I never have to change my behavior to be better, that's probably not good for my brain.

大脑成熟的方式首先是通过挣扎。你必须从错误中学习。大脑就是为此设计的。这是大脑真正擅长的。我是说，能够适应并调整到新情况。

The way that the brain matures is through struggling, number one. You have to learn from your mistakes. The brain was designed for that. That's what the brain is really good at. I mean, of being able to adapt and to be able to adjust to new situations.

顺便说一下，这就是AGI（人工通用智能）的含义。它指的是在不同情境、不同地点、不同文化中展现出的适应能力。

That's what AGI is, by the way. Artificial general intelligence is. It's that adaptability to different contexts, different places, different cultures.

所以CHATHYPT里的AI是在消除挣扎感吗？

So AI in CHATHYPT is removing the struggle?

不，不是。它是...这个这个...

No. No. It's it's it's there's this this

嗯，安妮看起来并不刻薄，她显得很配合。

Well, Annie didn't look like mean, Annie looked like she was cooperative.

但即便是处理日常事务时，它也在消除我需要批判性思考的挣扎。实际上，当你说话时，我只需把你的话输入ChatuchPutty，它就能生成另一个问题来问你。所以作为采访者，理论上我可以整天坐在这里，完全不用自己想问题。

But even when it comes to just doing my day to day tasks, it's it's removing the struggle of me having to think critically. In fact, when you're speaking, I can just type what you say into ChatuchPutty, and it can spit out another question to ask you. So as an interviewer, I could theoretically sit here all day and just defer my question.

如何培养毅力？正是通过挣扎来磨练毅力。

How do you develop grit? You develop grit through struggle.

没错。

That's right.

学习长期增强效应。绝对如此。当你学习新事物时，因为它是新的，所以很难。

And learning long term potentiation. Absolutely. When you learn something new, it's hard because it's new.

总的来说，你对人工智能最大的担忧是什么？我们该如何应对这些担忧？这个话题已经讨论过一些了

And generally, what are your biggest concerns with artificial intelligence? And how do we navigate those concerns? Is it talked a little bit

这超出了常规范围。所以我认为我们必须讨论它。我们必须立法规范它。我们必须研究它。为什么我们不断发布这些极具吸引力却未研究其影响的东西？

It's out of the box. So I think we have to talk about it. We have to legislate it. We have to study it. Why do we keep releasing things that are so sexy that we don't study the impact?

我们拥有世界历史上心理最不健康的一代年轻人。58%的少女报告持续感到悲伤。32%曾有过自杀念头。24%制定过自杀计划。13%曾尝试过自杀。

We have the sickest young generation in the world's history. Fifty eight percent of teenage girls report persistently sad. Thirty two percent have thought of killing themselves. Twenty four percent have planned to kill themselves. And thirteen percent have tried to kill themselves.

疾控中心的研究显示。我们之所以拥有历史上最病态的一代，是因为我们在没有任何神经科学研究的情况下就放任手机和社交媒体泛滥。如果我们不吸取教训——我认为人工智能潜在的危险性要大得多，因为它更具诱惑力。

A CDC study. We have the sickest generation in history because we've unleashed cell phones, social media without any neuroscience study. If we don't learn it, and I think AI is much more dangerous, Has the potential to be much more dangerous because it's way sexier.

我认为我们可能严重低估了它将产生的影响。就像社交媒体一样，我们曾以为它能连接彼此，但实际上我们成了实验中的小白鼠，可能要二三十年后才能看到实验结果。我倾向于认为人们在短期内会选择最便捷、最廉价且能带来即时优势的方案。考虑到这点，我认为人们的批判性思维能力可能会在一定程度上退化。如果要反驳自己的观点，我会说：使用ChatGPT后，我现在可能学到了更多东西。

I think we are probably grossly underestimating the impact it's going to have. I think just like social media where we thought the promise was that it was going to connect us, it's it's it's we're guinea pigs in an experiment where we're gonna find out the results of the experiment probably twenty, thirty years down the line. I tend to think people will do in the near term what's easiest for us and cheapest and what gives them the nearest the the short term advantage. So with that in mind, I think, okay, I think people's ability to think critically is probably gonna erode to some degree. If I had to counter my own argument, I'd say, am I I'm probably learning more now that I use ChatGPT.

我获取了更多信息，但可能正在丧失批判性思考的能力。我认为这是两件截然不同的事。就像在学校里，我为通过考试死记硬背德语，现在却不会说德语，因为我只是记住了考试需要的单词，并不真正理解德语。

I'm learning more information, but I'm probably losing my ability to think critically. And I think they're two very different things. Like, in school, I memorized German to pass the exam. I can't speak German now because I just memorized the words I needed to pass the exam. I didn't understand German.

我认为这正是当前发生的情况。我或许能复述内容，但真正理解与否是个问号。事实上，作为一生都依靠创新能力谋生的人——我的财富、事业全都建立在能批判性思考问题并提出新颖解决方案的基础上，这种方案往往借鉴不同第一性原理来创造新事物——我担心自己使用ChatGPT反而会降低效率。我在考虑是否该制定些自我约束规则。

And I think that's kind of what's happening. I might be able to regurgitate things, but whether I understand them, think is question question mark. And actually, as someone who's built my my life, my fortunes, everything, my businesses, based on my ability to innovate and think critically about the problem and then come up with a slightly novel solution, which learns from, you know, different first principles to create something new, I'm concerned that my own chat GBT usage is gonna make me less effective. And I'm wondering if I should put some rules in place for myself so that there's Self regulation. Yeah.

自我约束。我对社交媒体也采取同样措施。手机里关闭了所有通知，社交应用设置了重重使用限制。坦白说，我连TikTok应用都不打开。

Self regulation. I have to do the same with social media. On my phone, I turn off my notifications. I have so many things on my social media apps to stop me using them. I don't even frankly, I don't even open the TikTok app.

我觉得它甚至不该存在于我手机上，因为算法太令人上瘾了。不是说我们完全不发布内容，团队会发，但我不参与。就是觉得...确实需要克制。

I don't think it's even on my phone because I think the algorithm is that addictive. It's not to say that we don't we don't post. My team doesn't post. But I don't. I just think yeah.

而且

And

我记下了几点想法：请用它来增强而非替代思考。

Well, I wrote down a couple of thoughts Please. I had. Use it to amplify not replace thinking.

好的。

Okay.

交替进行AI辅助与纯脑力任务。参与深度学习、问题解决和记忆训练，甚至可以要求AI测试你。这样是互动而非取代大脑功能。就像你说的，AI已经存在且会越来越强大。

Alternate AI assisted with brain only tasks. Engage in deep learning, problem solving and memorization so you can actually ask AI to test you. So you're interacting with it. You're not using it as a replacement for your brain. And I think just like you said, it's here and it's going to get bigger.

我认为意外后果的出现不会等到二三十年后，而是五年内就会发生。我觉得一切都加速了。我们必须研究孩子们及其受到的影响。这就像麻省理工学院之前做的那项研究一样。

I think the unintended consequences is not going to be twenty or thirty years. I think it's going to be five. I think like everything is accelerated. And I think we have to be studying kids and the impact it has. This is just like they did with the MIT study.

这些是完全不使用技术的孩子，这些是使用搜索引擎的孩子，这些是使用人工智能的孩子。当我们看到这样的信息时，我们会采取行动。我们会就此对孩子们进行教育。

These are kids who didn't use it at all. These are kids who use search. These are kids that used AI. And when we see information like this we act on it. And we educate kids about it.

我认为关键在于能否让他们参与进来——这是我在青少年工作中发现的。如果能让他们真正明白：你究竟想要什么？是否愿意让那些靠你赚钱的人瓜分你的心智份额？最近有篇关于报复心理与大脑的精彩新文章，提到报复如何作用于基底神经节的伏隔核区域，人们实际上会对报复上瘾。但如果你能让他们认清这些公司通过窃取用户心智赚钱的真相，这种愤怒足以促使他们开始自我监督。

I think that's if you can engage them, that's what I found with my work with teenagers. If you can get them to really understand, okay, what is it you really want and do you want to give away part of your mindshare for people who are making money on you. And I think if you engage the there's a great new article on revenge and the brain and how revenge works on the nucleus accumbens part of the basal ganglia that people actually get addicted to revenge. But if you can get them engaged in the truth that these companies are making money, the more they steal your mind, it'll upset them enough that they'll begin to supervise it.

我喜欢让ChatGPT给我负面反馈这个主意。我打赌你也试过，对吧？

I like the idea of asking ChatGP to give me negative feedback. I'll bet you've done that. Right?

没错，经常这么干。比如昨天我写了份两页的备忘录，关于我想在公司里设立一个新职位。

Yeah. All the time. So I'll say, this my I've written this memo. I did it yesterday. I wrote a two page memo about me wanting to introduce a new role into my into my company.

我做得面面俱到：如何衡量这个职位的成功、背景说明、人选要求、组织架构、影响力、汇报关系等。然后我把文档分别输入常用的三个AI模型——Gemini、ChatGPT和Grok，要求它们'假设你是波士顿咨询集团的顶级顾问，请批评我的作品并指出改进方案'。它给出了详细的优化分析报告。我记得特别清楚，它指出需要补充财务影响预测的部分。

And I went I did everything. I did, like, how we'd measure if this was a success, the background context, the person, how the organization would be structured, the impact they'd have, how who they'd report to. And then I put it into all three of the ChatGPT models I use, Gemini, ChatGPT, and Grok, and said, critique my work and tell me how I could have written this better, pretending that you're a top consultant from Boston Consulting Group. And it went through and it gave me a big analysis of how I can make it better. And I read what it said and it said I remember it said actually, that was the thing that said you need to include financial forecasts about the impact.

还建议更清晰地规划汇报线等等。于是我根据建议修改了备忘录。不过你知道，我...

You need to think about who's going to report to who more clearly, etcetera, etcetera. So I went back into my memo and I added those things in. But I have I, you know

所以你在和它互动。

So you're interacting with it.

因为我害怕。大多数人不会那样做。我觉得我不会做我做过的事。我不认为我会花四个小时写那个。我本可以在三十秒内说，嘿，你能帮我写这个职位描述吗？

Because I'm because I'm scared. Most people don't do that. I don't think I would do what I did. I don't think I would have spent four hours writing that. I could have, within thirty seconds, said, hey, can you write me this job description?

而且它现在了解我的公司，因为Chatchpati有记忆。帮我写一个这个职位的职位描述。我希望他们为我启动这个新部门。我本可以节省三个半小时。唯一的原因

And it knows my company now because Chatchpati has memory. Write me a job description for this role. I want them to start this new department for me. And I could have saved myself three and a half hours. The only reason The reason

不是你成为公司CEO的原因。

not why you're the CEO of your company.

是的，没错。我没有选择三十秒的捷径，是因为我反思23岁时的经历，写作和简化对我的生活产生了深远的影响。如果我没有花五年时间每天写作，并将其简化到140个字符以便发推文，我就不会如此执着于

Yeah. Exactly. The the reason why I didn't take the thirty second route is because I reflect on being 23 years old and the profound impact that writing and simplifying had on my life. Had I not spent five years writing every single day and simplifying it into 140 characters so I could tweet it, I wouldn't have been religiously attached to

这个。你知道你在利用大脑的哪一部分吗？是基底神经节。那是重复性的。它需要练习、练习、再练习。一旦打下这个基础，你的认知能力就会大幅提升。

this And do you know what part of your brain was you were taking advantage of? It was the basal ganglia. That's repetitive. It needs practice, practice, practice. And once you put that foundation in, then you become much better cognitively.

认知部分只是两个大的学习系统。它们必须协同工作。所以我认为现在孩子们真正的问题在于学校正在摒弃死记硬背的学习方式。他们称之为死记硬背，好像这是坏事。不，那就是练习。

The cognitive part is just two big learning systems. And they have to work together. And so maybe I think that the real problem with children is that our schools now is getting away with rote learning. They call it rote as if it's something bad. No, that's practice.

你需要打好基础。你必须记住一些东西，比如数学、阅读等等，才能变得流利。你需要达到流利的程度。而这正是基底神经节的作用。

You need to have a foundation. You have to memorize things. Math, reading and so forth to become fluent. You need to be fluent. And that's the basal ganglia.

而这些聊天机器人里并没有基底神经节。

And there's no basal ganglia in these chatbots.

短期内我注意到的一件事是，我在拼写上变得越来越懒。因为Chat GPT和这些大型语言模型不仅仅是像我们以前在Word文档中使用的拼写检查。它们非常擅长知道我指的是哪个词。所以现在我开始意识到，我实际上只需要拼对单词的一半。我的意思是，如果一个词有12个字母，我只需要拼对6个字母。

One of the things I've noticed just in the short term is I'm getting lazier and lazier with spelling. Because chat GPT and these large language models are so it's not spell check like we used to have on on Word documents. They are so good at knowing what word I meant. So now I've I've started to learn that I literally only need to half spell a word. I literally mean if it was a if it was a 12 letter word, I need to get six letters right.

它就能知道。而你不需要

And it will know. And you don't

你不需要语法正确，它会帮你修正语法。

you don't grammar, it'll fix your grammar.

是的。这正是我的意思。所以，比如，我在这里打开了Chattypity。我要把一切都搞砸。我不看，我就直接说我要说好吧。

Yeah. And that's exactly what I mean. So, like, I've got Chattypity open here. I'm gonna butcher everything. I'm gonna not look, and I'm just gonna say I'm gonna say okay.

这就是我写的内容。我搞砸了。我试着闭上眼睛打字，在iPad上不看键盘，告诉我关于Daniel Amen的一切。我几乎把所有单词都拼错了。而它说，这是Daniel Amen医生的完整资料，而我每个单词都拼错了。

So that is what I wrote. I butchered it. I tried to type with my eyes closed, looking away on my iPad, tell me everything I know about Daniel Amen. I spelled the words pretty much all wrong. And it says, here's a full profile of doctor Daniel Amen, and I spelled every single word wrong.

哇。

Wow.

而且我拼写时不仅错得离谱，简直是灾难性的错误。所以未来当我回到ChatuchuBT时，我只需要拼对一半就行。不再需要完全拼写正确，只需半拼。

And I didn't spell to spell them nearly wrong. I spelled them horrifically wrong. And it so what in the future, I come back to ChatuchuBT and go, I only need to half spell. I don't need to spell anymore. Just need to half spell.

我是通过自然拼读法学习拼写的，也就是字母的发音。我猜你也是。我们这一代人就是这样被教育的。但在加州的学校里已经不能教自然拼读了。

I learned to spell with phonics, the sounds of letters. And I suspect you would do, too. Our generation, that was the way that was taught. You can't teach phonics in California schools.

而且你们已经有一代人没这么学了。这会改变他们的大脑。

And you haven't for the generation. Which changes their brain.

这彻底改变了他们的大脑结构。现在他们不会拼写了。我认为很大程度上是因为我们不再采用过去的学习方式——通过机械记忆、重复背诵、反复做题直到形成条件反射。

It completely changes their brain. And now they can't spell. I think a lot of it is the fact that we're no longer using the learning that we did, was by rote, by memorizing stuff, by repeating stuff, by doing problems over and over and over again until it's automatic.

你著述颇丰，以擅长教授学习方法闻名。根据你对大脑的全部认知，如果你想帮助我更好地学习，会给我什么建议？我整天与这些专家相处，每天都在吸收大量信息。当然不是全部

You've written so much, and you're well known for being someone that teaches people how to learn better. If you were trying to help me learn better based on everything you know about the brain, what advice would you give me? I'm someone that sits here with these experts all day, every day, consuming all of this information. Not all of this

好的。这是一百年前我们就知道的原理：要想长期记忆，就应该间隔复习。明白吗？换句话说，学习任何东西都需要合理分配时间。

Okay. So and this is something we've known for one hundred years. And that is if you want to remember long term, you should rehearse at intervals. Okay? In other words, you have a finite amount of time to study something.

你不该一次性投入那么多时间。但如果你学完某样东西后，第二天回来复习，或者更理想的是隔一周再复习，这种间隔能帮助大脑巩固记忆。这被称为间隔效应，可追溯到艾宾浩斯。学校根本不教这个。

You shouldn't spend all that time in one go. But if you spendyou learn something and then you come back the next day and rehearse it, or even better, come back the next week and rehearse it, that spacing is something that helps the brain solidify those memories. It's called the spacing effect. It goes back to Embiid House. You go to schools, they don't teach that.

确实不教。这是我们已知的最基本认知之一，却适用于所有类型的学习——认知学习甚至...

They don't. I mean, this is one of the most basic facts that we've known about. But it covers every single kind of learning. Cognitive learning, even

他们也不教我们如何学习。我们觉得首先该教的是如何爱护大脑，其次才是学习方法。没错。

And they don't teach us how to learn. Which we think that's the first thing they should teach us is how to love and care for our brains and then how to learn. Yes.

完全同意。我指的是...你提到的那个——我和芭芭拉·奥克利合作的大型公开在线课程《学会如何学习》，广受欢迎，已有600万人参与。

Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, other words, there's and you're referring to I have a massive open online course, a MOOC, with Barbara Oakley on learning how to learn. It's fabulously popular. 6,000,000 people have taken the course.

课程由50个十分钟的模块组成，但最受欢迎的是如何克服拖延症那部分。

A bunch of fifty, ten minute segments. But the one that's most popular is how to avoid procrastination.

答案是什么？

And what's the answer?

拖延的原因是存在心理障碍或能量壁垒。关键是要跨越它，但不是硬闯。你应该告诉自己：今天先花20分钟启动这个任务，我知道这需要很长时间。

The reason why you procrastinate is that there's some mental block or some energy barrier. So what you've got to do is get over that. And you don't do it by just running over it. What you have to do is say, I'm going to spend twenty minutes today getting started with that task. I know it's going to take me a long time.

我有个计时器。我开始思考这个问题。稍微深入一点，可能列个清单。砰。就这样结束了。

I have a timer. And I start thinking about it. And I get a little bit into it, maybe make a list. Bang. That's the end.

好的。这很棒。二十分钟。现在，情况是这样的。你去睡觉。

Okay. It's great. Twenty minutes. Now, here's what happens. You go to sleep.

你的大脑现在正在处理那个清单。第二天你回来再花二十分钟。你把它分成小段来做。你不想一次性完成所有事情。这和间隔效应的原理是一样的。

Your brain is now working on that list. And you come back the next day and spend another twenty minutes. And you do it in small segments. You don't want to do it all at once. And it's just like the same thing with the spacing effect.

你的大脑需要时间。你的潜意识需要时间来处理事情。所以通过投入一点点，它会在夜间处理。第二天当你回来时，你就能在大脑已完成的成果上继续构建。

Your brain needs time. Your subconscious needs time to work on things. And so by putting in a little bit, it'll work on it overnight. Now when you come the next day, you'll be able to build on what you've done in your brain.

这就是为什么人们遇到难题时会说‘我要睡一觉再决定’吗？

Is this why people say, I'm going to sleep on it, when they've got difficult problems?

你知道这些俗语其实是有道理的。完全正确。

You know what these sayings actually have meaning. It's absolutely right.

因为大脑需要某种间隔效应。

Because the brain there's something about spacing out.

关于记忆巩固的间隔效应非常有趣，这是我深入研究过的领域。关键在于将新体验整合到原有的长期记忆中，且不能干扰既有记忆。同时，这个过程还能帮你筛选出相关且重要的内容。

Spacing, but memory consolidation I'm talking about is very interesting. It's something I've actually worked a lot on. And what's happening is you have to take the new experience and integrate it into your old long term memory. And that has to be done in a way that doesn't interfere what's there. And also, you get a chance to sort out what's relevant, what's important.

我发现清晨醒来时，原本混乱的思绪会变得清晰，因为睡眠剔除了大量无关紧要的信息。这样你就能看清真正重要的东西。

I know when I wake up in the morning, things that were very muddled and things become clearer because I think it's eliminated a lot of things that are irrelevant or not needed. And so you now can see what's important.

那么有哪些我们自以为在学习、实则无效的方法？比如今天我准备这个播客，整理了20页研究资料，可能觉得反复阅读就能记住内容不用再看资料了。

So what are the things that we do where we think we're learning something but they're actually not working? Know, because I might be preparing for this podcast today. I've got 20 pages of research that I've pulled together. And I might tell myself that the way for me to really learn that so that I don't have to look at the research is by just rereading it over and over again.

正确做法不该是机械重复阅读。就像学生遇到理解障碍时，总爱钻牛角尖说'我不懂'。其实应该起身活动——做饭、园艺都行，让潜意识处理信息。

What you should have done is not just read it over and over again. In fact, one of the things that we say and this is a standard thing is that students, they get a mental block and they keep banging their head against the wall. I can't understand it. I can't understand The right thing to do is once you get to that point is just get up and start walking around doing something. Cooking, gardening, whatever it is.

大脑很快就会饱和。会议间歇看似浪费时间，实则是串联长篇演讲最重要的环节。我最推崇滑雪会议模式——早晨两小时讲座后去滑雪，大脑会在运动中处理信息。

Let your subconscious work on it. The brain saturates very quickly. So having breaks at meetings, you might think, is a waste of time. But actually, it's the most important thing you can add to a long string of talks is have breaks between the talks so that your brain can work on it. And my favorite meeting actually is a ski meeting.

具体操作是：去滑雪场上午讲座，然后滑雪。这时大脑会自动加工听到的内容。晚上回来再进行两小时会议。

And the idea is that you go to a ski resort. And what you do is in the morning, you have a couple of hours of lectures. And now you go skiing. And now it turns out your brain is working on what you heard. And then when you come down in the evening, have another couple of hours.

此时大脑已焕然一新，能更好地吸收整合新信息。接着入睡——就像揉面团，需要反复的醒发过程。

But now your brain is refreshed. And so it's able to take in the new information and integrate it. And then you go to sleep. It's like kneading bread. You have to go back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.

因此我发现，在会议期间学习新事物并能够思考和反复琢磨，比在会议结束时再做这些要高效得多。

And so I found those most efficient in terms of learning new things and being able to think about it and mull over it during the time of the meeting as opposed to at the end of the meeting.

此刻正在观看的每一位观众，都拥有可贡献的东西，无论是知识、技能还是经验。这意味着你们都有价值。Stanstorm——这个播客的赞助商之一，也是我联合拥有的平台——只需一键点击，就能将你的知识转化为生意。你可以销售数字产品、提供教练服务、建立社区，而且完全不需要编程经验，只需有开始的动力。这是我真心相信的事业。

Every single one of you watching this right now has something to offer, whether it's knowledge or skills or experience. And that means you have value. Stanstorm, the platform I co own who are one of the sponsors of this podcast, turns your knowledge into a business through one single click. You can sell digital products, coaching, communities, and you don't need any coding experience either, just the drive to start. This is a business I really believe in.

已有3亿美元被像你这样有潜力的创作者、教练和企业家在Stan商店赚取。这些人没有等待，他们听到我这样说后立即行动，不再拖延，开始构建并推出产品，现在他们因此获得报酬。Stan极其简单易用，你还可以将其与已有的Shopify店铺关联。我和女友以及团队许多成员都在使用。如果你想加入，可以通过30天免费试用开启自己的事业。

And already $300,000,000 has been earned by creators, coaches, and entrepreneurs just like you have the potential to be on Stan's store. These are people who didn't wait, who heard me saying things like this, and instead of procrastinating, started building, then launched something, and now they're getting paid to do it. Stan is incredibly simple and incredibly easy and you can link it with a Shopify store that you're already using if you want to. I'm on it and so is my girlfriend and many of my team. So if you want to join, start by launching your own business with a free thirty day trial.

访问stevenbartlett.stan.store，几分钟内即可完成设置。多年来我接触并投资了约50-60位早期创业者，比如Cadence的Ross和Perfect Ted的Marissa。他们都知道，拥有数字化流畅的业务至关重要，但让企业或团队达到这种水平并不容易。通过与沃达丰商业的持续合作，我见证了他们在帮助创始人和小企业提升数字能力方面的工作。

Visit stevenbartlett.stan.store and get you all set up within minutes. I've met and invested in many early stage founders over the years, probably about 50 or 60. Ones like Ross from Cadence and Marissa from Perfect Ted. And one thing they all know is that having a digitally fluent business is crucial, crucial, but it isn't always easy getting your business or team to that point. Through my ongoing partnership with Vodafone Business, I've seen the work that they're doing supporting founders and small businesses to become digitally savvy.

他们深知小企业主多么重视过来人的建议。因此他们刚刚推出了新内容系列，分享志同道合创始人的经验。这个名为business.connected的项目属于沃达丰支持计划，提供免费数字技能资源。如果你正在研究AI营销、电子商务或智能扩展，该系列汇集了先行者的建议与洞察。

They know how much small business owners value advice from those who've been there and done it before. So they've just launched a new content series to share experiences from like minded founders. It's called business.connected, part of Vodafone's support program. It's a collection of resources designed to support businesses with free digital skills. So if you've been trying to figure out AI marketing ecommerce or just how to scale smarter, there's advice and insights throughout this series from those who've already done it before.

众多亲身实践过的创始人和专家参与其中。我强烈推荐大家观看，只需在YouTube搜索vodafonebusiness.connected，或点击下方描述中的链接。现在，让我们基于你对大脑运作的了解，讨论除AI外其他保持大脑健康的方法。先从儿童说起。

A bunch of different founders and experts who have been there and done it. I highly recommend you go and check it out. Just search vodafonebusiness.connected on YouTube or follow the link in the description below. So let's talk about other things outside of AI that we can do to have good, healthy brains based on everything you know about how the brain works. Let's start with children.

我希望在未来几个月或几年内——或当上帝赐予我孩子时——成为一名父亲。为了确保孩子大脑健康，我应该考虑哪些方面？

I'm hoping to be a father at some point in the next next couple of months or years or whenever God grants me a child. What should I be thinking about with my child's brain to make sure it's healthy?

在怀孕前尽可能让你和伴侣的身体保持最佳健康状态。因为我喜欢一个概念叫‘大脑储备’。大脑储备是指你拥有的额外功能组织，用来应对生活中的各种压力。而这种储备始于形成婴儿的卵子和精子的健康。所以你们现在可以做一些事情，会非常有帮助。

To get your body and your partner's body as healthy as you can before you conceive. Because there's a concept I like called brain reserve. Brain reserve is the extra function tissue you have to deal with whatever stress comes your way. And it starts from the health of the egg and the health of the sperm that create the baby. So there are things you guys can do now that would be really helpful.

当你的伴侣怀孕后，要注意不要让她承受太大压力，因为在孕育宝宝期间——我是说宝宝的大脑从第21天就开始发育了。所以甚至在你得知怀孕前，宝宝的大脑就已经在发育了。所以要有意识地、有目的地，尽可能保持健康的生活方式。我认为这能给宝宝一个良好的开端。然后再考虑给宝宝喂什么。

And then once your partner is pregnant, you want to not put her under a lot of stress because her body's health while she's creating the baby, I mean the baby's the brain starts to develop I think day twenty one. So even before you know she's pregnant the baby's brain is developing. So knowing you, intentional, purposeful, it's like let's live as cleanly as we can. I think that gives the baby a head start. And then you think about what to feed the baby.

要考虑宝宝接触什么。而宝宝最需要的是妈妈和你的时间、眼神交流、拥抱和唱歌。

You think about what the baby is exposed to. And what the baby needs most is moms and your time and eye contact and cuddling and singing.

触摸非常重要。但还有另一个事实。有项研究是关于说话量对婴儿影响的。你知道，婴儿在18个月前都不会说话。但事实证明，你对婴儿说的话会进入他们的大脑并产生影响。

Touching is really important. But there's another fact. There was a study that was done on the impact of how many words are spoken. You know, when a baby and a child, even when a baby doesn't speak until like 18. But it turns out that the words that you are talking to the baby are going into the brain and have an impact.

在不爱说话的家庭中，孩子在学校表现更差。不幸的是，很多贫困家庭就是这样。但关键在于让孩子早期大量接触语言。

And in families that don't talk, they do worse at school. Unfortunately, lot of poor families. But that's really important is that they're exposed to language early and abundantly.

而且你要以身作则。这是很重要的一点。每天你希望宝宝成长为什么样的人，你都在通过自己的行为、言语、对待孩子母亲的方式，示范健康或疾病。我有本书叫《培养心理强大的孩子》，对此我感到非常高兴。

And you model. I mean it's one big thing. Whatever you want the baby to grow into every day, you are modeling health or you are modeling illness just by what you do, by what you say, by how you treat the baby's mother. Have a book called Raising Mentally Strong Kids, which I'm very happy about.

而且

And

这始于我想成为什么样的父亲，以及我想培养什么样的孩子。而建立情感纽带，你希望孩子接受你的价值观，那么纽带就是时间，实实在在的相处时间，以及倾听。我认为这正是人工智能所做的。它会真正倾听而不打断你，试图反馈你所听到的，然后给你一些积极的输入。但太多时候，由于屏幕的存在，父母并没有在倾听，他们的注意力都在手机上，每个人都被分散了注意力。

it starts with what kind of dad do I want to be and what kind of child do I want to raise. And bonding, you want your child to pick your values, then bonding is time, actual physical time, and listening. And that's what AI does, I think. It'll actually listen without interrupting you and try to reflect back what you're hearing and then give you some positive input. Too often, because of screens, parents aren't listening, their heads are in their phones, and everybody's distracted.

你随便去一家餐厅都能看到这种现象。好像每个人都在看手机，没人看彼此。

You see it whenever you go to a restaurant. It's like everybody's on their phone and nobody's looking at each other.

我们是否正在培养心理脆弱的孩子，因为现在有一种文化倾向，比如过度帮助他们，为他们做得太多？

Are we raising mentally weak kids because we're there's a culture now of, like, helping them too much, doing too much for them?

这一代人是历史上陷入困境最深的。我们真的必须问自己为什么。从我们给他们吃的食物，到他们看的设备，再到负面新闻，新闻的两极分化。这是一种长期的皮质醇刺激。然后是分裂，哦，你投票给这边或那边。

This generation is the most in trouble in history. And we have to really ask ourselves why. From the food we feed them to the devices they look at, to the negative news, the polarization of the news. It's that sort of chronic cortisol. And then the separation, oh you voted this way or you voted that way.

今天早上我在电视上看到一些内容。如果有人投票给某一方，那么你就不应该和他们来往。我想，我们已经如此孤独了，现在你还要切断与50%人口的交往。这简直是愚蠢至极。

I saw something on TV this morning. If somebody voted one way, well, you shouldn't spend time with them. I'm like, we're already so lonely that now you're going to cut off 50% of the population. It's like it's just such stupidity.

你是否经常思考宗教和某种超越性信仰对大脑、心理学以及精神病学整体的影响？

Do you think much about the impact that religion and having a belief in some kind of transcendent thing has on the brain and psychology and psychiatry generally?

所以如果

So if

如果你不相信上帝，患抑郁症的风险会高出三倍。

you don't believe in God, you're three times the risk of depression.

可能是某种不同的方式。某种超越性的存在？

It could be something different way. Something transcendent or?

是的。如果你认为自己的存在只是偶然——和我一起想想看。如果你相信生命只是随机产生、没有创造者也没有意义，这种存在主义的虚无感，与‘我是被特别创造出来、在地球上履行某种使命’的认知截然不同。有使命感的人更长寿、更快乐。无论你信仰哪种版本，完全不信对大脑来说是种负担。

Yes. If you believe you're here by, just think about it with me. If you believe you're just here by random chance that life really was not created and has no meaning, there's existential nothingness to that as opposed to, oh no, I'm created in a special way to do something purposeful on earth. There's purposeful people live longer, they're happier. Now whatever version you believe, to not believe is hard for the brain.

有项关于信徒与非信徒的很有趣的研究。许多科学家会认为信徒的大脑更小，但实际上他们的颞叶更大。颞叶位于太阳穴下方、眼睛后方，就是这里——这个区域被称为‘上帝区’，因为人们在这里进行思考。他们体验到的...

And there's an interesting study on believers versus nonbelievers. And you know many scientists would go, well they'll have smaller brains if they're a believer. They actually had bigger temporal lobes. And temporal lobes underneath your temples and behind your eyes, right here, That's where it's called the God area because that's where people think. They experience

如果颞叶发生癫痫，就会产生超验体验，比如感觉置身于上帝面前。

And if you have a seizure in the temporal lobe, have transcendental experiences like you're in the presence of God.

研究者认为使徒保罗在大马士革路上可能经历了颞叶癫痫，因而看见了上帝。加拿大劳伦森大学的迈克尔·珀辛格博士做过实验，他通过外部刺激整个大脑，发现当刺激右颞叶外部时...

And they think maybe the Apostle Paul on the road to Damascus had a seizure and saw God. There's actually a researcher in Canada, Laurentian University, Michael Persinger. So he would stimulate the outside. He would do it all over the brain. But what he found, he stimulated the outside of the right temporal lobe.

人们会产生被感知的临在感，真实感受到上帝存在于房间中。这是否意味着大脑虚构了上帝？还是说这是上帝与我们沟通的方式？我其实做过关于祷告的研究，结果非常有趣。

That people would get a sensed presence. They would actually feel the presence of God in the room. So does that mean the brain makes up God or does that mean there's a way for God to communicate with us? I actually did a study on prayer. Was so interesting.

知道吗，我为你祈祷，预言，一种叫做说方言的现象。这非常迷人。说方言是一种通灵状态。意味着你在与圣灵沟通。假设是你需要抑制额叶活动，而这正是我们60%患者身上发生的情况。

Know, I pray for you, prophecy, something called speaking in tongues. And it was fascinating. Speaking in tongues is channeling. Which means you're channeling the Holy Spirit. And the hypothesis was you'd have to drop your frontal lobes, which is exactly what happened in sixty percent of our patients.

其中一位患者的基底神经节活动飙升，就像被可卡因刺激一样，因为可卡因正是作用于基底神经节。太有意思了。

And one, basal ganglia skyrocketed just like got hit with cocaine because that's where cocaine works in the basal ganglia. So interesting.

如果要你创建一个大脑健康的国家，任命你为美国总统一个月，必须通过行政命令来建立大脑健康国家，你会立即签署哪些行政命令？

If you had to create a brain healthy nation and I made you president of The United States for one month and you had to put in place executive orders that would create a brain healthy nation, what executive orders would you immediately sign?

关键问题。让所有人都自问：我们正在做的事情对大脑有益还是有害？这就是整个行动的核心。我从事这行很久了，只要能引导人们用信息和爱——爱自己、爱家人、爱国家——来回答这个问题：当前行为对大脑是好是坏？

One question. Get all of the to ask themselves what we're doing is this good for our brands or bad for it. And so that's the campaign. I mean I realize I've been doing this a very long time. If I can just get people to answer that one question with information and love, love of themselves, love of their families, love of their country, is what we're doing good for our brains or bad for it?

迄今为止对大脑最有益的药物——其实不只是大脑，对整个身体都是——就是运动。运动促进血液循环，让大脑获得充足营养。它有益心脏，增强免疫系统。人们尚未充分认识到其重要性。

By far the best drug you can take for your brain, and not just your brain but your entire body, is exercise. In other words, exercise, you pump the blood and your brain gets a lot of nutrients and everything. It helps your heart. It helps your immune system. People don't realize how important that is.

不是说非要成为运动员。老年人散步就很好。散步就是完美的运动。现在的孩子们运动量远远不够。

We're not talking about being an athlete. We're just talking about walking if you're older. Walking is perfectly good exercise. And children now, they're not getting enough exercise.

没错，因为他们沉迷电子设备。我有个模型：想要保持或修复大脑健康，必须预防或治疗11个主要风险因素。我们之前讨论过，而运动对每一项都有帮助。

No, because they're on devices. And so I have a model. If you want to keep your brain healthy or rescue it, you have to prevent or treat the 11 major risk factors. And we've talked about them before. Exercise helps you with every single one.

它被称为'明亮心智'。B代表血流（Blood flow），能促进血液循环。退休与衰老（Retirement and aging），它能延缓衰老。I代表炎症（Inflammation），具有抗炎作用。G是基因（Genetics）。

So it's called Bright Mind. So B is for blood flow, increases blood flow. Retirement and aging, it decreases your age. I is inflammation, it's anti inflammatory. G is genetics.

它能激活促进健康的基因。H代表头部创伤（Head trauma）。坚持行走能降低老年跌倒风险。T是毒素（Toxins），出汗可以排毒。

It helps turn on health promoting genes. H is head trauma. If you keep walking, you're less likely to fall when you're older. T is toxins. Sweat detoxifies you.

M代表心理健康（Mental health）。运动促进多巴胺分泌，同时也提升血清素水平，就像大脑里的完美平衡器。

M is mental health. Exercise boosts dopamine, but it also boosts serotonin. So it's like that perfect balancer in your brain.

呼吸方式会影响大脑健康吗？

Breathing, how we breathe, does that have an impact on brain health?

通过特定呼吸法，你几乎能立即改善心率变异性——这不仅是心脏健康的指标，也关联心理健康。我称之为'15次呼吸法'：用4秒深吸气，屏息1.5秒稍作停顿，再用8秒缓慢呼气后屏息1.5秒。当呼气时间是吸气时间的两倍时，能增强副交感神经张力。

So you can almost immediately improve heart rate variability, which is a sign of heart health but also goes to mental health, by breathing in a certain helpful way. And I call it the 15 breath. So four seconds in, big breath, hold it for a second and a half, pause just a little bit. Eight seconds out, hold it for a second and a half. So if you take twice as long to breathe out as you breathe in, it increases something called parasympathetic tone.

这种方法能让你迅速平静下来。若出现恐慌发作，虽然可以服用阿普唑仑，但后续问题很多。不如学习腹式呼吸法——主要用腹部呼吸，保持呼气时长是吸气的两倍。

And it just calms you down almost immediately. So if you're having panic attacks, yes you can take Xanax but there's so many problems with that later on. Or you can just learn how to breathe, we call it diaphragmatic, so breathe mostly with your belly, taking twice as long to breathe out as you breathe out.

关于咀嚼：有研究表明咀嚼能刺激海马体活动，可能延缓认知衰退。动物实验显示，减少咀嚼会导致学习能力受损。

Chewing. There's a piece here that says it stimulates hippocampal activity and may slow cognitive decline. Reducing chewing has been linked to impaired learning in animal studies.

快餐会减少咀嚼次数，因为它追求快速。所以他们去除了大部分纤维，让你能更快地咀嚼、更快地吞咽。

And fast food decreases chewing because it's fast. So they take most of the fiber out so you can chew it faster, you can swallow it faster.

对大脑有害的事项清单：过度使用GPS导航应用，这会通过长期外包空间记忆削弱海马体，可能导致与记忆导航相关区域的萎缩。

Things in the bad for your brain list: overuse of GPS navigation app, which weakens the hippocampus by outsourcing spatial memory long term. This can lead to atrophy in areas associated with memory navigation.

人们晚年被诊断出阿尔茨海默病是因为Siri。因为在我刚开始做精神科医生时，如果有人在自己生活了三十年的城市迷路，家属会焦急地联系我。我当时就觉得，这人开始走向痴呆。而现在人们会说‘带我回家’。你认为不阅读地图会产生表观遗传效应吗？

And people are diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease later in life because of Siri. Because I used to, like when I started as a young psychiatrist, somebody got lost in a city they'd lived in for thirty years and their family would call me upset. And I'm like, Okay, this person's headed toward dementia. Now that person goes, take me home. Do you think we're going to have an epigenetic effect of not reading maps?

如果史蒂文现在用手机导航从A点到B点，你认为这会影响到他子女吗？就因为他们的父亲没有...

That if Steven, now he uses his phone to get from A to B, you think that's going to affect Steven's son or daughter because dad didn't have?

哇，好吧。我从没想过这类东西能遗传。顺便说，我觉得必须是生理性的。比如压力，很可能遗传。

Wow. Okay. Never occurred to me that you could pass on something like that. By the way, think it has to be physiological. Stress, for example, could be probably passed on.

你提到过这个。你指出过。怀孕期间要避免压力和危机，对吧？

You mentioned this. You pointed out. During pregnancy you want to prevent stress and crisis, right?

你知道那个关于小鼠的实验吗？研究者通过记忆让它们害怕樱花气味。每当小鼠闻到樱花味就会受到轻微电击。现在这些小鼠的后代也害怕樱花气味。

Do you know about that study with mice where they made them afraid of the scent of cherry blossoms from memory? And so whenever the mice smelled cherry blossoms they would shock them. Mildly. So the mice are now afraid of the scent of cherry blossoms. Their babies were afraid of the scent of cherry blossoms.

他们的孙辈们害怕樱桃味Wow的香气。

Their grandbabies were afraid of the scent of cherry Wow.

好的。这就是嗅觉系统。嗅觉系统非常有趣，因为它直接连接到海马体。但可能存在进化优势，因为如果环境中存在你不该吃的东西或某种特定气味，直接遗传这种认知比亲身试错要高效得多。毕竟如果是毒药，可能会要了你的命。

Okay. That's the olfactory system. The olfactory system is very interesting because it goes directly to the hippocampus. But there might be an evolutionary advantage because if there's something in the environment that you shouldn't eat or that smells a particular way, passing that on is very efficient instead of having to experience that yourself, trial and error. Because if it's poison, it might kill you.

但如果你父母有过这种糟糕经历并遗传给你，你就该避开具有特定气味的东西。这很合理。

But if your parents had that bad experience and pass it on, you shouldn't go to something that smells in a particular way. That makes sense.

另一个对大脑有害的意外因素是，你开头提到的人工甜味剂。我原以为人工甜味剂没问题。

The other thing that's bad for the brain, is unexpected, is you said at the start artificial sweeteners. Now I thought artificial sweeteners were fine.

它们并不安全，也不是零代价的。我曾经把无糖汽水当挚友般畅饮，以为毫无副作用。结果35岁就得了关节炎。有位病人告诉我，她停用阿斯巴甜后关节炎就消失了。

They're not fine. And they're not free. So I used to drink diet soda like it was my best friend Because I thought it was free. And then I had arthritis when I was 35. And one of my patients said she stopped aspartame and her arthritis went away.

我当时喝了大量无糖汽水，停用后关节炎果然消退。我不信邪又尝试，症状再次出现才确信。人工甜味剂会改变肠道菌群。

And I'm like, because I was drinking like, I don't know, a lot of diet soda. And so I stopped and my arthritis went away. And I'm like, no. And so I did it again and it came back and I'm like, okay. And artificial sweeteners can change the microbiome.

我们还没讨论过这点。但你肠道里住着100万亿微生物，它们负责制造神经递质和消化食物。研究发现三氯蔗糖（即善品糖）会减少肠道有益菌，进而对大脑功能产生负面影响。

So we haven't talked about that. But you have these 100,000,000,000,000 bugs in your gut that make neurotransmitters digest your food. And especially sucralose or Splenda has been found to decrease the good bacteria in your gut which then has a negative impact on brain function.

还有你提到的阿斯巴甜。

And aspartame as you mentioned.

我提到的阿斯巴甜可能产生跨代影响。那么有没有可能问题其实不在社交媒体？而是几十年来我们食物中一直含有阿斯巴甜。我认为这些都是累积效应，我们应该始终思考一个问题：这对我的大脑有益还是有害？

And aspartame that I mentioned that can have a generational impact. So is it possible it's really not social media? It's that we've had aspartame in our food for decades. And I think it's all of these things that just sort of are additive and we should just always think that one question. Is this good for my brain or bad for it?

你提到了西兰花。可能对大脑有益。芝士汉堡呢？大概不是。但为什么不选择汉堡呢？

So you mentioned broccoli. Probably that's good for your brain. Cheeseburger? Probably not. But why don't you take the burger?

如果能选用草饲牛肉会更好。把它放在沙拉里，这样对大脑就有益了。

And if you could make it grass fed, that would be better. And put it in a salad, and then that would be good for your brain.

那长期背景噪音呢？我们很少考虑噪音的影响，但

What about chronic background noise? We don't think much about the impact noise has, but

我以前住的地方离高速公路只隔三栋房子。如果你去那里就会发现，天啊这里太吵了。但我从没注意过高速噪音，因为大脑已经学会屏蔽它了。

I used to live. My house was three houses from the freeway. And if you just go there, it's like, my God, it's so loud here. I never heard the freeway because my brain just learned to tune it out.

顺便问下，这对你是好是坏呢？

By the way, was that good or bad for you?

我能够让你

That I was able You to

适应后，我不再敏感地认为那实际上可能因多种原因并不好。因为这真正意味着你正在为那种环境专门化。当你去别的地方时，你的大脑会变得不同。这里还有另一个例子。

adapted and I were no longer sensitive to think that actually was probably not good for various reasons. Because what it really means is that you're specializing for that environment. And your brain's going be different when you go someplace. So here's another example.

而且这很有压力。对吧？这是长期的压力，

And it's stressful. Right? It's chronically stressful,

但我的大脑正在对背景做出反应。换句话说，你的大脑正在对它做出反应，尽管你没有意识到

but my In brain is reacting the background. In other words, your brain is reacting to it even though you're not aware

这一点。我有五个姐妹，这让情况变得更糟。

of it. I have five sisters, which makes it even worse.

潜移默化地增加皮质醇，损害工作记忆和注意力调节，尤其是对儿童和老年人来说，长期暴露在交通或城市低水平背景噪音中。

Subtly increases cortisol and impairs working memory and attention regulation, especially in children and older adults to be chronically exposed to background noise like traffic or the low level of a city.

是的，没错。完全正确。

Yeah, that's right. That's absolutely right.

请务必对我接下来要说的话保密。我将邀请一万名你们中的成员更深入地进入《CEO日记》的世界。欢迎加入我的核心圈子。这是一个我即将推出的全新私人社群，我们有许多精彩内容从未向外界展示过。

Make sure you keep what I'm about to say to yourself. I'm inviting 10,000 of you to come even deeper into the diary of a CEO. Welcome to my inner circle. This is a brand new private community that I'm launching 12. We have so many incredible things that happen that you are never shown.

这里有我录制对话时iPad上的内容提要，有从未公开的片段，有与嘉宾的幕后对话，还有我们从未播出的完整剧集等等。在这个圈子里，你将直接与我互动。你可以告诉我们你希望这个节目变成什么样，想让我们采访谁，以及你渴望听到怎样的对话。

We have the briefs that are on my iPad when I'm recording the conversation. We have clips we've never released. We have behind the scenes conversations with the guests and also the episodes that we've never ever released and so much more. In the circle, you'll have direct access to me. You can tell us what you want this show to be, who you want us to interview, and the types of conversations you would love us to have.

但请记住，目前我们只邀请前一万名加入的成员，之后将关闭入口。如果你想加入我们的私人封闭社群，请点击下方描述中的链接或访问d0accircle.com。我将在那里与你交流。如今我们很多人都在多屏幕间切换任务，比如这边看着电视...

But remember for now, we're only inviting the first 10,000 people that join before it closes. So if you wanna join our private close community, head to the link in the description below or go to d0accircle.com. I will speak to you there. Many of us multitask across multiple screens now. We're watching TV here.

这边拿着手机，那边摆着iPad，还有电脑。我查阅了关于多任务处理的科学研究，发现这会训练大脑变得容易分心，降低前扣带回皮层的灰质密度？

We've got our phone here. We've got our iPad here. We've got our computer here. I And was reading into the science of multitasking, and it said that it trains your brain to be distractible, reducing gray matter density in the interior cingulate?

那是脑岛。在内侧前额叶皮层。

That's insula. In the medial prefrontal cortex.

脑岛这个区域非常有趣。我知道你能详细讲讲它。

And when the insula the insula is so interesting. And I know you can talk about it.

我有

I have

一项关于希望的新研究即将发布。我们对7500名患者进行了希望问卷调查。这是什么意思？

a new study coming out on hope. So on seven thousand five hundred patients we gave them a hope questionnaire. What does that mean?

希望问卷。

Hope questionnaire.

希望。比如你有多大信心能让明天变得更好。低希望人群的前额叶皮层整体功能较弱，但岛叶活跃度尤其低下。这个信号在整个研究组中统计学意义最为显著。某些研究中岛叶被称为——

Hope. Like how much hope do you have that you have the ability to make tomorrow better. And people with low hoe have lower overall prefrontal cortex function, but the insular was really low. And that signal was the most statistically significant of the group, really. And in some studies insular is called

顺便说一下抑郁症。抑郁患者的前扣带回活跃度低。事实上，现在已开始用深部脑刺激疗法，通过刺激该区域来帮助部分患者。

By the way, for depression. People who have depression have low activity in the anterior cingulate. In fact, deep brain stimulation has been used now to help some people if you stimulate that area.

我们的影像研究表明，抑郁就像胸痛——不是单一病症。就像没人会被诊断为'胸痛'，因为那太荒谬了，对吧？可能是心脏病、心律失常、心脏感染、胀气或悲伤。从影像学角度看，抑郁也是如此。

And what our imaging research would say is depression is like chest pain. It's not one thing. Like nobody gets a diagnosis of chest pain because that would be stupid, right? It could be heart attack, heart arrhythmia, heart infection, gas, grief. Depression's the same way when you look at it from an imaging standpoint.