本集简介
双语字幕
仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
人们真的很在意是什么让他们不受欢迎。嗯。
People really care about what's making them disliked Mhmm.
他们非常想知道如何被人喜欢。
And they really wanna know how to be liked.
好的。
Okay.
首先，这是我在哈佛课堂上做的一个练习，叫做‘让人喜欢你的10个问题’。
So first, this is an exercise that I do in my class at Harvard called 10 questions to fall and like.
所以如果我向某人提出这些问题，他们就会喜欢我。
So if I ask someone those questions, they're gonna like me.
这是个很好的起点，但让我们深入探讨一下，因为这里面藏着如何更受欢迎的线索，这是世界上最可教、最实用、最科学严谨的沟通框架。
It's a great starting point, but let's talk about this because there are gonna be little clues about how to be better liked, and it's the most teachable, practical, scientifically rigorous framework in the world for communication.
史蒂文，你想听听看吗？
Do you wanna hear about it, Steven?
当然，我很想听听。
Of course, I wanna hear about it.
我想成为世界上最具说服力、影响力和讨人喜欢的演说家，所以我会跟随你的指引。
I wanna be the most persuasive, influential, likable talker in the world, so I shall follow your lead.
天啊。
Oh my gosh.
这责任重大。
It's a lot of power.
我喜欢。
I love it.
我太喜欢了。
I love it so much.
哈佛教授艾莉森·伍德布鲁克斯是位行为科学家。
Harvard professor Alison Woodbrooks is a behavioral scientist.
她花了二十年时间研究对话科学。
Who has spent two decades studying conversational science.
她将揭示我们都会犯的沟通错误，以及谈判的艺术。
And she's revealing the communication mistakes we all make, the art of negotiation,
以及如何让任何人都喜欢你。
and how to get anyone to like you.
我们都已成年，觉得交谈应该很容易，但作为科学家，当你深入了解时，会发现这正是我们会有那么多尴尬时刻、会说错话、会显得无聊、会生气和敌对的原因，而应对这些都有非常明确的策略。
We all get to adulthood and we feel like conversation should be easy, but as a scientist, when you look under the hood, you realize this is why we have so many awkward moments, why we say things that we shouldn't, why we are boring, why we get angry and hostile, and there's very clear strategies to help us with all of that.
比如，我最重要的发现之一是如何将社交焦虑重新定义为兴奋，这让你关注机会而非威胁。
Like, one of my biggest findings was how we reframe social anxiety as excitement, which makes you focus on opportunities rather than threats.
这篇论文最终被《头脑特工队》电影采用。
And that paper ended up being featured in Inside Out, the movie.
还有就是闲聊。
And then there's small talk.
我讨厌闲聊。
I hate small talk.
我要帮你重新理解它，因为它真的很重要，但人们常犯的错误是停留太久，他们需要沿着话题金字塔向上推进。
I'm gonna help you reframe that because it's really important, but the mistake that people make is that they stay there way too long and they need to move up this topic pyramid.
数字时代的情况如何？
What about in a digital age?
我们是否需要改变沟通方式？
Do we need to start communicating differently?
是的。
Yeah.
有些明确的方法可以让我们的文本交流更有效，我们会逐一讲解。
There's clear things that we should do to make our text based communication better, and we'll go through all of them.
你提到最近做了一个关于男性友谊的有趣研究。
And you said you've done an interesting study recently about male friendship.
没错。
Yes.
而且结果相当令人担忧。
And it's quite troubling.
那么作为男性，我该如何结交更多朋友？
So how can I make more friends as a man?
对。
Yeah.
我们来聊聊这个话题吧。
Let's talk about that.
请给我三十秒时间。
Just give me thirty seconds of your time.
我有两件事想说。
Two things I wanted to say.
首先，要衷心感谢你们每周都收听我们的节目。
The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week.
这对我们所有人来说意义重大，这真的是我们从未想过也不敢想象的梦想成真。
It means the world to all of us, and this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place.
但其次，我们感觉这个梦想才刚刚开始。
But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started.
如果你喜欢我们的节目，请加入24%的固定听众行列，在这个应用上关注我们。
And if you enjoy what we do here, please join the 24% of people that listen to this podcast regularly and follow us on this app.
我要向你许下一个承诺。
Here's a promise I'm gonna make to you.
我会竭尽全力让这个节目现在和未来都做到最好。
I'm gonna do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future.
我们会邀请您希望我对话的嘉宾，并继续保留您喜爱这个节目的所有元素。
We're gonna deliver the guests that you want me to speak to and we're gonna continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show.
谢谢。
Thank you.
艾莉森·伍德·布鲁克斯教授，您具体从事什么工作？为什么您认为它对世界如此重要？
Professor Alison Wood Brooks, what is it that you do, and why do you think it matters so much to the world?
我是哈佛大学教授，同时也是一名行为科学家。
I am a professor at Harvard, and I'm a behavioral scientist.
我研究人们如何交流以及如何改善沟通方式。
I study how people talk to each other and how they can do it better.
我在哈佛开设了一门自己设计的课程叫《对话》。
I teach a course that I created there called Talk.
我还为此写了本书，名为《对话的科学与做自己的艺术》。
I wrote a book about it, also called The Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves.
如果有人现在选择收听这段对话，他们刚刚点击进来，正在思考：我是该留下还是离开？
And if someone's chosen to listen to this conversation now, they've just clicked on it, and they're thinking, should I stay or should I go?
基于你在书中完成的工作和所有研究，如果他们留下来听这段对话，我们能给他们什么承诺？
What promise can we give them if they stay and listen to this conversation that is based on the work you've done in your book and all the research you've done?
你认为普通人能从中获得什么，能对他们的日常生活产生有意义的影响？
What is it that you think the average person can come away with that will have a meaningful impact on their day to day life?
生活的本质就是人际关系，而人际关系的关键在于交谈。
All of life is about relationships, and relationships are about talking.
所以如果他们能学到哪怕一个有助于对话的策略，都将极大地改善他们的生活。
So if they can learn even one strategy that helps them in their conversations, it will massively improve their lives.
想想从工作到恋爱关系、友谊、工作效率，一切都取决于能否进行出色的对话。
If you think of everything from work to romantic relationships, friendships, productivity, all of it hinges on having excellent conversations.
但对话很容易，对吧？
But conversations are easy, right?
就像，你只要开口说话就行。
Like, you just talk.
我们都有这种感觉。
We all feel that way.
我们长大成人后，都觉得对话应该很容易，因为我们从一岁、一岁半蹒跚学步时就开始学习对话，而且每天都在和无数对话伙伴练习。
We all get to adulthood, and we feel like conversation should be easy because we started learning how to do it when we were one, one and a half years old as toddlers, and we practice doing it with an enormous number of partners, conversation partners, every day of our lives.
所以当我们成年时，就会觉得自己应该是专家，应该很擅长对话。
So by the time we become adults, it feels like we should be experts, like we should be great at it.
但作为科学家，当你揭开表象深入研究，就会发现，天啊，原来背后有这么多复杂的机制在运作。
But as a scientist, when you look under the hood and you see, oh my goodness, all of the complexity that's happening under the hood, you realize, oh, this is why we have so many awkward moments, why we say things that we shouldn't, why we don't say things that we should, why we hurt each other, why we get defensive, why we are boring, why we get angry and hostile.
而我们有非常明确的策略可以帮助应对所有这些情况。
And there are very clear strategies to help us with all of that.
你觉得是不是有很多人因为不懂如何交谈而给别人留下错误印象？
As you were saying that, was thinking, do you think there's a lot of people that are going through life giving off the wrong impression because they don't know how to talk?
也许他们因此被人讨厌。
Maybe they are disliked.
可能他们被误解，因为他们尚未掌握进行良好对话的科学方法。
Maybe they are misunderstood because they haven't mastered the science of how to have a great conversation.
在我最糟糕的日子里，我担心每个人都在被误解中度过。
On my worst days, I worry that everybody's walking around being misunderstood.
当你思考说话这件事时，就像我现在正在说话一样，你不可能把所有的想法和个性都完整地表达出来。
When you think about talking, even as I'm talking right now, there's no way to take the entire contents of your mind and all of your personality and say it out loud.
所以我们总是在筛选内容。
And so we're always curating.
我们总是在选择通过对话与他人分享哪些部分的内容。
We're always choosing what some subset of stuff to share with other people through conversation.
没有人能做到完美，我担心很多人在这方面真的很吃力。
And no one is doing that perfectly, and I fear that many people are really struggling with it.
如果你必须指出人们想成为优秀交谈者时最需要的几样东西，我们真正追求的是什么？
If you had to pinpoint just a few things that people want when they think about becoming a great conversationalist, like, what is it that we actually are aiming at?
是不是要成为，你知道的，那是什么？
Is it to be you know, what is that?
是的。
Yeah.
通常，人们都希望被喜欢，甚至被爱。
Usually, people want to be liked, even loved.
通常，我们希望享受对话，而不是让对话变得痛苦。
Usually, we want to enjoy our conversations, to not have them be miserable.
我们希望感到安全和被保护，而不是让对话变得可怕且耗时。
We want to feel safe and protected and and not have it be dreadful and time consuming.
我们还希望实现职业目标，比如晋升、取得成就并做出明智决策。
And we wanna achieve professional goals, so advancing and achieving and making great decisions.
所以你看，人们在对话中试图实现的基本动机，实际上比单纯寻求联系要复杂一些。
So already, the very basic drives of what people are trying to achieve in conversation are actually a little bit more complicated than just like, oh, we're looking for connection.
当你深入探究人们在这些类别中的所有目标时，会发现动机就像一片浩瀚的星群。
And then when you really dig into it within all of the goals that people want in those categories, it's like a vast constellation of motives.
我想请你教我如何真正、真正地好好说话。
I would like you to teach me how to talk really, really well.
我不确定你是否需要我这么多帮助，史蒂文，但即便是最优秀的沟通者也有提升空间。
I don't know if you need my help that much, Steven, but I'd love to even the best communicators have room for improvement.
不，我觉得我需要。
No, I think I do.
我认为
I think
我需要。
I do.
因为我上周就在思考这个问题，回顾了所有我进行过的不同类型对话。
Because I was thinking about this last week and all the conversations I've had, the different types of conversations.
有一次对话是我第一次见到同事的家人。
I had one conversation where I met someone's family for the first time who works with me.
你知道，那确实有点让人紧张，因为...
And it was, you know, it was a little bit nerve wracking because Yeah.
那种接触...人们总会遇到这种时刻，比如见家长之类的。对我来说，经常是见到同事的家人让我特别紧张，因为他们可能在评判我。
That contact you know, people have have these moments where they meet the in laws or whatever or they meet for me, it's often meeting someone who works with me's family I find quite nerve wracking because they're like, I think they're kind of probably judging me.
我还经历过一些棘手的商务对话
I've also had difficult business conversations
因为他们确实在评判你。
Because they are judging you.
是的，他们确实如此
Yeah, they are
评判我。
judging me.
我能感觉得到。
And I can feel it.
当我面临那些对话时，就像，天哪。
And as I go towards those conversations, like, oh my god.
然后我就僵住了，有点不知所措。
And then I end up just freezing or being a little bit paralyzed.
你可能以为像我这样以谈话为生的人会觉得对话很容易。
And you'd think someone like me who does this for a living finds conversations easy.
其实完全不是这样。
I absolutely do not.
实际上，我接触的高层管理人员、成功人士越多，就越发现
I actually, the more, you know, I talk to very high level C suite, very successful people.
事实上，越是高层和成功的人士，越能意识到这非常重要，而且他们还有提升空间
And in fact, the higher and more successful people are, the more likely they are to be aware that this is really important and that they have room for improvement.
这就像你意识到这项技能可能是帮助你取得现在成就的关键，因此你想在这方面做得更好
It's almost like you're aware that this skill is probably what helped you get where you are, and therefore you want to get even better at it.
你会敏锐地察觉到那些尴尬时刻、失误或失态，然后心想：我真的很想把这些从生活中消除
And you're keenly aware of when you have awkward moments or make mistakes or missteps, and you're like, I would really like to get that out of my life, please.
阿门
Amen.
我会反复思考两周半前的一次尴尬相遇
I like ruminate on an awkward encounter I had, like, two and a half weeks ago.
当然会这样
Of course.
因为当时觉得'我本应该...'，但读了你的作品后，我思考了当时本可以怎么做
Because was like, I should have just but actually, in reading some of your work, I thought about what I could have done.
我们会谈到这个观点——为那些时刻做准备，而我通常不会这么做，因为我总觉得自己应该天生就会。
We'll get to this, this idea of preparing for those moments, which I typically don't because I assume I should be a natural.
我能问问吗，当你谈论这些让你反复思考的例子时，你是否觉得自己存在某种弱点，或者某种你怀疑需要改进的重复性问题？
Can I ask you, as you were talking about these different examples of things that you're ruminating about, do you feel like you have a weakness or, like, a a recurring thing that you suspect you need to get better at?
我认为其中一个问题是我在自我分类上有点内向。
I think one of them is I am a bit of an introvert in my sort of self classification.
嗯。
Mhmm.
随着更多人认识我，我觉得自己变得越发内向了。
And as people know who I am more in the world, I think I've become more introverted.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以有时候这可能会被误解。
So and sometimes that can be perceived in the wrong way.
因此，我理想的状态是独处或与非常熟悉的人在一起。
So my, like, happy state is kind of being alone or around people that I'm extremely familiar with.
如果我出门去健身房之类的地方，我会有点多疑。
If I leave the house and I go, say, to a gym or something, I have a little bit of paranoia.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我总是处于紧张状态，这让我更加封闭自己。
So I'm always kind of on edge, which means that this kind of shuts me down more.
因此当我与人交谈时，有时会显得比较封闭。
So when I do have conversations, can sometimes appear to be bit more shut down.
没错。
Yeah.
我不想把这种状态带到需要更开放的场合。
And I don't want to carry that into moments where I need to be a bit more open.
另外我一般就是很讨厌闲聊。
And then I would say, generally, I just like hate small talk.
嗯。
Yeah.
你并不孤单。
You're not alone there.
我只是作为一个观点来说。
And I just say as like a point.
这就是为什么我觉得我适合做播客，因为可以直接深入话题，我可以询问人们关于他们的创伤。
This is why I think I podcast because you can just skip straight into the deep stuff, and I can ask people about their trauma.
其实在普通对话中你也可以这样做的。
It's You can do that in normal conversations too, actually.
你是否发现自己经常陷入闲聊中？
Do you find that you get stuck in small talk
是的。
Yes.
经常吗？
A good bit?
我只是尽量避开它。
I just try and avoid it.
我有个有趣的故事要讲。
So I've got this funny story.
地球上最德高望重的人之一邀请我参加一个活动，我拒绝了，因为现场会有其他100个人。
One of the most the most prestigious people on planet Earth invited me to come to a thing, and I said no because there would be a 100 other people there.
我只是不想和一群人共处一室四个小时。
And I just didn't wanna be in a room for four hours with a bunch of other people.
对我来说，这种场合真的太耗神了。
Like, it just for me, it's so exhausting.
是的。
Yep.
如果我告诉你这个背景是什么，你会笑出声的。
And if I told you that what this context was, you'd burst out laughing.
我的团队当时说，你去那个该死的房间。
And my team were like, you go to that fucking room.
然后你就去了。
And you go.
而且你会享受的。
And you enjoy it.
我就说，不。
And I'm like, no.
我不去。
I'm not going.
那里人太多了。
There's too many people there.
但这就是我的性格。
But that's that's kinda what I'm like.
我喜欢这种环境，但我讨厌闲聊，我讨厌
I love this environment, but I hate small talk, I hate
我不确定这是弱点还是你在了解自己的偏好。
I don't know if that's a weakness as much as it is you learning your preferences.
我觉得这没什么问题。
I think it's okay.
也许我们最终会适应，但大群体确实让人压力很大。
Maybe we'll get there, but large groups are very stressful.
群体对话中要弄清楚谁该在何时与谁交谈、谈什么内容，这对人类心智来说是极大的负担。
Group conversation and figuring out the structure of who should be talking to whom, when, and about what is very overwhelming for the human mind.
这与亲密的两人对话截然不同，后者更易掌控，目的也更为明确。
It's quite different than intimate one on one conversation, which is much more within your control, and it's much clearer what the purpose is.
所以或许我们可以重新定义这个问题——不是性格缺陷，而是需要优化你的社交组合。
So we should think about if maybe not a we can reframe it, and if not a weakness, but thinking about your social portfolio.
你在和谁交谈？
Who are you talking to?
对象是否合适？场合与群体规模是否恰当？
Is it the right people, and is it in the right arrangements and the right group size?
我们现在这种一对一交流，本质上就与参加百人聚会是两种完全不同的社交模式。
So what we're doing right now one on one is a categorically different task than going to a party with 100 people.
稍后我会帮你重新梳理这个问题
So I'm going help you reframe that Why later
这是你自己选择的吗？
did you choose to do this?
你的人生本可以有哪些不同的可能？
What are the things you could have done with your life?
是啊。
Yeah.
生活不是很奇妙吗？
Isn't life so fascinating?
我经常思考那些未曾选择的道路。
I often think about the paths not taken.
但我很庆幸自己走上了这条路。
But I'm very happy to be on this path.
我在纽约州北部的一个小镇湖边长大。
I grew up in Upstate New York on a small lake in a small town.
我是个湖边的女孩，那里风景美极了。
I was a lake girl, just gorgeous place.
我特别喜欢运动，尤其是团队运动。
And I love playing sports, team sports in particular.
我从小就珍视女性间的友谊。
I love female friendship from an early age.
可能对我影响最深的是，我是一个同卵双胞胎。
And probably most formatively, I'm an identical twin.
我刚才描述的所有这些经历，我认为这些要么表明我多么热爱对话，要么塑造了我对对话的热爱。
And all of the things I just described, I think, are either indicators of how much I love conversation or formed my love of conversation.
但无论如何，我上大学时对人类及其行为理解产生了浓厚兴趣。
But either way, I arrived at college deeply interested in understanding humans and their behavior.
当我进入哈佛后，我发现，哇，原来有社会心理学和传播学这些专门研究人类行为的学科。
And by the time I got to Harvard, I realized, wow, there are whole fields like social psychology and communication that are purportedly about communication, but nobody's bothered to actually transcribe real conversations and study them at very large scale.
这就是我过去十五年一直在从事的工作。
And so that's what I've been up to for the last fifteen years.
作为同卵双胞胎，这对你研究对话产生了怎样的影响？
How has being an identical twin been formative in this regard?
我的双胞胎姐妹叫莎拉。
So my twin's name is Sarah.
作为同卵双胞胎，肯定有很多方面和普通兄弟姐妹相似。
Being an identical twin, there are many things that are similar to being a close sibling, I'm sure.
但同卵双胞胎就像是世界上有另一个版本的你。
But an identical twin, it's like you have another version of you in the world.
我们共用一个卧室，参加同样的运动队，一起在乐队演奏。
And we share a bedroom, we were on the same sports teams, we played in band together.
这有点像近距离观察另一个自己。
And so it's sort of like watching a version of yourself up close.
我能看到她如何失败，然后想着：哦，我要避免那样做。
And I got to see how she failed and thought, Oh, well, I'm going to avoid that.
也能看到她如何成功。
And I would see how she succeeds.
她总能说出绝妙的笑话。
She hits an amazing joke.
她回答了一个绝妙的问题。
She answers an amazing question.
我知道我能做到这些是因为我们拥有相同的DNA，相同的能力。
I know that I'm able to do that because we have the same DNA, the same abilities.
在某种程度上，我潜意识里一直在追寻并试图帮助他人在各种关系中找到这种默契——无论是友情、爱情还是工作合作。
In a sort of subconscious way, I think I've just been chasing, trying to help other people find that in their relationships, in their friendships, in their romantic relationships, in their work collaborations.
因为我亲眼见证过这种默契对人类而言有多么美妙，当沟通良好时，你们可以如此亲密无间，真正理解彼此。
Because I've gotten to see how amazing that can be for two human beings, how close you can be and how much you can actually understand each other when you communicate well.
你做过哪些研究？
And what research have you done?
你参考了哪些依据？
What are the reference points you're pulling on?
你自己做研究吗？
Do you do your own research?
非常多。
So much.
给我讲讲Too的情况吧
And give me a flavor of the Too
很多，可能吧。
much, probably.
我简直像个正在康复的学者。
It's almost like I'm a recovering academic.
我在学术界从事行为科学研究已有二十年了。
I've been working in academia doing behavioral science research for twenty years.
我知道我看起来年轻得不可思议。
I know I look impossibly young.
我从研究生时期就开始研究情绪，尤其是焦虑。
I started in graduate school studying emotions, especially anxiety.
而且不一定是需要药物或治疗的那种焦虑，而是人们整天不断感受到的各种社交焦虑。
And not the kind of anxiety that requires medication or therapy necessarily, but the types of social anxiety that people feel constantly all day long.
并试图弄清楚，好吧，它如何影响不同的行为，比如我们如何谈判、如何接受彼此的建议，或者公开演讲时如何表现这类事情。
And figuring out, Okay, how does it affect different behaviors, like how we negotiate or how we take advice from each other or how we perform when we're public speaking, these types of things.
然后找出策略和技巧来帮助人们更有效地管理这种焦虑。
And then figuring out strategies and tips to help people manage that anxiety more effectively.
我最重要的发现之一是如何将焦虑重新定义为兴奋。
And one of my biggest findings was how we reframe anxiety as excitement.
这种转变其实非常容易实现。
It's a very easy flip to move from.
本质上它们是同一种情绪，因为两者都是高度唤醒、高能量、高皮质醇（压力荷尔蒙）、高心率和手心出汗的状态。
Essentially, they're the same emotion because they're both high arousal, high energy, high cortisol, stress hormone, high heart rate, sweaty palms.
你只需要改变大脑对它的认知方式。
You just change how you think about it in your mind.
所以大声说出'我很兴奋'这样的话，改变你的评价方式，就能真正体验到兴奋感。
So literally saying things out loud like, I'm excited, change your appraisal of it so you actually experience excitement.
这能在很多方面帮助你表现得更好。
It helps you perform a lot better in a lot of different ways.
所以你在2011年做过一项研究？
So you did a study in 2011?
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
那个关于紧张情绪、早期谈判的研究？
The nervous, early negotiation study?
那个研究是专门针对谈判的。
So that one was about negotiation specifically.
这种兴奋重新评估，论文题目叫《兴奋起来》。
This excitement reappraisal, the paper's called Get Excited.
那篇论文实际上后来被《头脑特工队》这部电影采用了。
And that paper actually ended up being featured in Inside Out, the movie.
哦，哇。
Oh, wow.
是的。
Yeah.
电影里有个精彩场景：主角即将恐慌发作时，Joy悄悄溜进小隔间对情绪小人们说『别再画这些事情会变糟的预测图了，要画事情可能变好的样子』。
There's a great scene where the main character's about to have a panic attack, and Joy sneaks into the little cubicle farm of minions and says, stop drawing all of these projections about how things are gonna go badly, and instead draw how things could go well.
这场景太棒了。
It's so great.
我当时和孩子们坐在影院里，我丈夫顺着视线看过去就问『这是不是你的研究内容？』
I was sitting in the movie theater with my kids, and my husband kinda looked down the way, and he was like, is that your thing?
我就连连点头说『对对对，这就是我的研究』。
And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's my thing.
那么这两项研究——关于紧张情绪的，还有关于温暖感的——揭示了什么？
So what did that study show, those two studies, the nervous Nelly one, but also the warmth Yeah.
的
Of
当我们感到焦虑时——就像大多数人在谈判中那样，因为这是个充满不确定性和失控感的高压环境，正是焦虑的温床——我们总想逃避。
When we feel anxious, as most people do in negotiations because it's an intense environment, filled with uncertainty and a lack of control, which is the recipe for anxiety, we want to escape.
我们要么通过让步来缓解这种感觉，要么就想直接逃离现场，对吧？
We either want to relieve that feeling by making concessions or get out of there, right?
直接退出互动
Just exit the interaction.
这就是《紧张焦虑与谈判》论文的主要发现
That was the main finding of the Nervous Nelly Anxiety and Negotiation paper.
《将焦虑重构为兴奋》论文提出了多种方法来说服自己只是感到兴奋，比如大声说'我很兴奋'
The Reframing Anxiety as Excitement paper is lots of different ways to convince yourself that you're feeling excited just by saying I'm excited out loud.
这样做能让你关注机会而非威胁，关注事情可能变好而非变糟，并产生惊人的连锁效应
And in doing so, that makes you focus on opportunities rather than threats, how things could go well rather than poorly, and it has incredible downstream consequences.
它能让你唱得更好
It helps you sing better.
能让你公开演讲表现更出色
Helps you do public speaking better.
还能让你更有效地进行协作
It helps you collaborate more effectively.
所以这是个非常非常有效的干预手段
So it's just a very it's a very powerful intervention.
这项研究的具体机制是怎样的？
And what was the sort of mechanics of the study?
我们会把人们带进来。
So we would bring people in.
然后告诉他们，嘿，史蒂文。
You tell them, hey, Steven.
你要在观众面前唱卡拉OK。
You're gonna be singing karaoke in front of an audience.
人们自然开始对此感到相当紧张。
People start to feel quite nervous about this, naturally.
就在他们即将上台唱歌前，我们说：好的，实验人员会询问你的感受。
Then right before they're gonna get up and sing this song, we say, Okay, an experimenter's gonna ask you how you're feeling.
其中一部分人，我们要你们说自己感到兴奋。
Some of you, we want you to say you're feeling excited.
而另一部分人，我们要你们说自己感到焦虑。
And some of you, we want you to say you're feeling anxious.
仅此而已，当我问，史蒂文，你现在感觉如何？
And that alone, when I say, Steven, how are you feeling right now?
你会说？
And you say?
焦虑。
Anxious.
很好。
Great.
好的。
Okay.
我们去唱歌吧。
Let's go sing the song.
你上。
You go.
那些说'我很焦虑'的人，比说'我很兴奋'的人唱得更差。
People who said, I'm anxious, sing worse, compared to people who say, I'm excited.
他们表现得更出色。
They get out there.
他们的节奏更准，音高更稳。
They're more in tempo, more on pitch.
他们的韵律感更好。
They have better rhythm.
我们通过软件测量他们在实验人员面前实际演唱时的表现。
And we measure it with a software when they're actually singing in front of the experimenters.
仅仅通过我说'我很兴奋'。
Just by me saying, I am excited.
是啊。
Yeah.
所以前几天见我团队成员家人时，我本该对自己说'见到他们我好兴奋'。
So the other day when I met my team member's family, I should have been saying to myself, I'm so excited to meet them.
除此之外还有其他方面。
Among other things.
所以这个很重要。
So so this and this is important.
它并不总是有效。
It doesn't always work.
对吧？
Right?
如果你感到恐惧，而且确实是可怕的事情，比如你害怕母亲会去世，而事实证明如果她患有绝症，很难对此感到兴奋。
If you're terrified, and it's really something dreadful, like, you're terrified that your mother's going to die, and turns out it's going to be hard to get excited about that if she has a terminal illness.
但从边际效应来看，如果你在紧张和兴奋之间摇摆不定时，能在心里真正说服自己其实是兴奋的、事情会顺利发展——比如'这次考试我一定能碾压'、'篮球场上我要大杀四方'——这种心态转换如果重复足够多次，实际上更可能成真，尤其是在像会见同事家人这样的重要谈话之前。
But on the margin, if you're sort of torn between feeling nervous or excited, in your mind, if you can really convince yourself that you actually are excited and that things could go well, I'm gonna crush this exam, I'm gonna I'm gonna tear it up on the basketball court, that flip, if repeated enough, actually becomes more likely to come true, and certainly before a high stakes conversation like meeting your colleague's family.
真有意思。
So interesting.
我其实在YouTube有个幕后频道叫《日记背后》。
I I really have this behind the scenes channel called Behind Your Diary on YouTube.
前几天我上了吉米·法伦的节目，因为上美国深夜档电视节目、还要在七分钟内搞笑什么的，其实有点超出我的舒适区。
And the other day when I did Jimmy Fallon because it's kinda outside of my wheelhouse to go on, like, late night TV in America and, like, seven minutes to be funny or whatever.
所以我当时浑身发抖，因为我平时是个很严肃的人。
So I was shaking myself because I'm a very serious guy.
是啊。
Yeah.
所以上台前有段视频，我对团队说，我在幕布拉开前对自己说的是：这会很精彩。
So before I went out, there's a video of me, and I said to my team, what I said to myself before the little curtain opened was, this is gonna be amazing.
等不及了。
Can't wait.
你已经为此做好了准备。
You've you've, like, prepared for this.
然后我在脑子里把这些废话都说了一遍，当时还觉得是废话。
Then I I said all this nonsense in my head thinking that it was nonsense.
我走出去后，度过了人生中最棒的时光。
I walked out, I the best time of my life.
效果特别好，一切都很顺利。
It was it went so great.
太好了。
Great.
我还为此拍了个视频，讲述我通常不会轻信那些缺乏严谨证据的事情，但那次我确实没有依据。
And I I made a video about that how, you know, I'm not one to believe in things that without, like, rigor and evidence, and I didn't have it.
现在你有了。
Now you do.
现在我有了。
Now I do.
现在我有一项研究证明事实并非如此。
Now I have a study that proves that it's not.
这个发现很有趣。
This one is interesting.
我认为这是我科学探索之旅的开端，意识到我们与他人交谈的方式，尤其是与自己反复对话的方式——想想看，你在吉米·法伦节目前就这么做过。
I think this was the beginning of my scientific journey, realizing that the way we talk to other people and the way we talk to ourselves, especially in a repeated sense, if you think about, okay, you did that before Jimmy Fallon.
那如果在下一次见同事家人前也这样做呢？
Now what if you do it before the next time you meet a colleague's family?
那如果你在采访比尔·盖茨之前这么做呢？
Now what if you do it before you interview Bill Gates?
在你行动之前这么做？
Before you do it?
对吧？
Right?
如果你养成告诉自己你很兴奋的习惯，并且这对你有效，那么长期积累下来将产生难以置信的意义。
If you then get in the habit of telling yourself you're excited and that becomes effective for you, it's incredibly meaningful in accumulation over time.
对吧？
Right?
所以只关注一次确实有帮助。
So just focusing on one time, yes, it's helpful.
但如果你能使其成为习惯，就会对人产生这种螺旋上升的效应。
But if you can make it habitual, it has this sort of upward spiral effect on people.
这是我科学探索的起点：如果我们能研究像'兴奋起来'或'我很兴奋'这样的短语，那么研究人们交谈中层层展开的方式会怎样呢？不仅仅是单句话，而是对话的每个转折点？
It was the beginning of my scientific journey thinking, oh, well, if we can study one phrase like get excited or I'm excited, what if we start studying the cascading, unfolding ways that people talk to each other, and not just one line, but, like, every turn of a conversation?
此前从未有人这样做过。
No one had done that before.
你做的这项谈判研究，其机制是什么？
And this negotiation study you did, what was the mechanism for that?
是的。
Yeah.
那更像是文献综述。
That was a more class of the literature.
人们研究谈判已有数十年历史，几乎所有商学院和法学院都设有非常优秀的谈判课程，这些课程都建立在严谨的研究基础上。
People have been studying negotiations for decades now, and there's a really great negotiation course at almost every business school and law school that's based in all of this rigorous work.
在谈判领域尚未被研究的是人们的情绪。
What had not been studied in terms of negotiating are people's emotions.
大约十五年前，包括学者在内的人们才意识到：噢，人们的感受很重要。
It was about fifteen years ago that people, including scholars, came to the point where we were like, Oh, people's feelings matter.
当他们感到紧张或愤怒时——这实际上是个重要区别——你内心的感受与你向对方表达的内容之间的差异。
When they feel nervous or when they feel angrythat's actually an important distinctionhow you feel on the inside versus what you're expressing to your counterpart.
在这篇论文中我们发现，作为基线情况，大多数人在谈判前和谈判中都会感到焦虑，因为这是一个紧张的环境。
So in this paper, what we found is, as a base rate, most people feel anxious before and during a negotiation because it is an intense environment.
参加谈判课程的最大好处之一可能就是你能获得练习机会，从而对整个过程感到更加适应。
It's probably one of the greatest benefits of taking a negotiation course is that you just get reps, and so you get more comfortable with the process of doing it.
这可能是参加这类培训课程最重要的收获。
That might be the biggest takeaway from doing a training course like that.
因此在这篇论文中，我们有了这种基线观察，所有人都感到焦虑。
And so in this paper, we had that sort of base rate look, everybody's feeling anxious.
那么，感到焦虑？
And then what are the downstream consequences of feeling anxious?
我们发现让参与者进行谈判，玩这些谈判游戏时。
And what we find we had people doing negotiations, playing these negotiation games.
我们发现人们更倾向于过早退出或做出更多让步来缓解焦虑感。
What we find is that people are much more likely to sort of leave prematurely or make more concessions to relieve the feelings of anxiety.
提出糟糕的报价。
Make bad offers.
是的。
Yeah.
或者说这取决于你的目标。
Or it depends on your goals.
如果你的目标是获取大量价值，那么做出让步和放弃利益对你毫无帮助。
If your goal is to claim a lot of value, then making concessions and giving money away is not going to help you with that.
比如当我向老板要求加薪时，如果非常紧张，就更容易降低期望、接受不利条件并草草结束谈判。
So if I'm asking my boss for a pay rise, for example, and I'm very, very nervous, I'm much more likely to lower my expectations, accept a bad offer, and leave the situation prematurely.
完全正确。
Absolutely.
那我该怎么办？
So what do I do about that?
唉，方法太多了。
Ugh, so many things.
如果讨论的是加薪谈判，你需要尽可能多地掌握话语权。
If we're talking about asking for a raise, what you want is to go in there with as much sort of personal power as you can.
一种方法是先在其他地方获得另一份工作机会。
One way to do that is to get another job offer somewhere else first.
我们把这个称为谈判协议的最佳替代方案，即BATNA。
So we'll talk about this as the best alternative to a negotiated agreement, a BATNA.
你需要强化你的BATNA。
You want to strengthen your BATNA.
这样如果你的老板说，不，我不会给你加薪，你就可以理直气壮地说，我要去接受另一份工作机会，因为我刚在街对面那家公司得到了更好的待遇。
So if your boss says, no, I'm not giving you a raise, you can legitimately say, I'm gonna go take this other job offer because I just got a better offer from the guy down the street.
如果你不想
What if you don't want
接受
to take
另一份工作机会呢？
the the other offer?
那么你需要诚实地评估自己在谈判中拥有多少筹码。
Then you need to be honest with yourself about how much power you have in the negotiation.
还有很多人常犯的错误就是双手叉腰走进去，摆出一副'我理应加薪'的姿态。
You also probably a lot of people make the mistake of going in sort of hands on hips like I deserve more money.
首先你应该问很多问题来确认：我是在和正确的人谈判吗？
There are lots of questions that you should ask first to know, am I negotiating with the right person?
我的公司真的有资金给我加薪吗？
Does my company have the funds to actually give me more money?
我该如何用能打动他们的方式来证明加薪的合理性？
Why how can I justify this in a way that's compelling to them?
对吧？
Right?
这不是你能决定的。
It's it's not up to you.
关键在于他们需要想留住你，并觉得你得到了公平慷慨的回报。
It's that they they need to want to keep you and to feel like you are being fairly and generously rewarded.
所有这些都需要在你进去提出要求之前先问很多问题。
And all of that requires asking a lot of questions before you go in and start making demands.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
在这种情况下，如果你为我工作，你会如何尝试说服我？
In that context, how would you try and persuade me if you work for me?
那么你会怎么说呢？
So what would you say?
因为我确实认为，你知道，当你走进去直接要钱时很容易引起对方的抵触
Because I do think, you know, it's very easy to get someone's backup when you walk in and ask them for money
是的。
Yeah.
如果你这么做
If you do it
百分之百同意。
100%.
这个问题我很难回答，因为这可能涉及到我的个人价值观。
It's hard for me to answer this because maybe this is sort of my personal values.
这就像我暂时摘下了专家的帽子。
It's almost like I'm taking off my expert hat for a moment.
我认为获得加薪的最佳方式是让自己变得出色。
I think the best way to get a raise is to be awesome.
做有价值的事，公司自然会主动给你加薪，甚至无需开口要求。
Do things that are valuable, and your company is going to give you more money without even having to ask for it.
所以在我心里，关于如何开口要求加薪这个问题，我更希望根本不需要走到那一步。
So in my heart, this question of how do we have a conversation where I ask for more money, it's almost like I would hope that you don't even get to that point.
如果你真的让自己变得几乎不可替代且极具价值，你的老板会主动来找你说：必须留住你。
If you are truly making yourself almost irreplaceable and incredibly valuable, your boss is going to be coming to you and saying, have to keep you around.
你太棒了。
You're amazing.
你真是不可思议。
You're so incredible.
这比直接走进去说'这不公平'要容易得多。
That's a much easier conversation to have than walking in and saying, it's not fair.
我赚得不够多。
I don't make enough.
我确实认为这个观点是成立的。
I do think that holds to be true.
我认为一般来说，如果人们的第一优先事项是他们想要什么，那么他们往往得不到自己想要的。
I think that generally, if people's first priority is what they want, then they often don't tend to get what they want.
但那些把'我能给予什么'作为第一优先事项的人，往往能得到他们想要的。
But people who have the priority, their first priority is what I can give, tend to get what they want.
没错。
That's right.
这确实需要某种思维方式的转变。
It's so, it's a bit of a sort of like a mindset shift.
如果你优先考虑他人的需求，思考你的老板和组织看重什么，并努力满足这些需求，你就会让自己变得有价值，而这种价值最终会回馈给你。
If you prioritize other people's needs, if you're thinking about what your boss finds valuable, what the organization finds valuable, and you rise to meet those needs, you make yourself valuable, which is going to come back to you.
希望如此，这正是我们所期望的。
Hopefully, that's what that's the hope.
而且我认为实际情况往往就是如此。
And I think often that is the case.
几乎总是如此。
Almost always that is the case.
在谈话框架中（我们稍后会讲到），k代表善意。
In the talk framework, and we'll get there, the k is for kindness.
这种善意不是指纯粹的利他主义——比如因为太在乎老板就帮他完成所有要求，也不是出于我有多关心他。
And it's not kindness in the sense of, like, altruism because I'm gonna help my boss and do everything he wants because I care so deeply.
这可以是其中一部分。
That can be part of it.
但同时也是一种循环——如果你满足组织的需求，最终这些付出会回馈给你。
But, also, it's this sort of loop of, like, well, if you give him everything every if you give the organization what it needs, that's gonna come back to you.
你实际上会变得有价值，并得到你想要的。
You will actually become valuable and get what you want as well.
这就是人际关系的运作方式。
That's how relationships work.
通常我面试别人时，我会引导谈话方向。
Usually, when I interview people, I lead the way.
今天，我要跟随你的引导。
Today, I'm gonna follow.
好吗？
Okay?
因为你知道我和观众想要达到的结果。
Because you know the outcome that me and the audience wanna get to.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我准备了所有这些材料。
So I have all this stuff here.
我很喜欢这样。
I love it.
道具准备得很棒。
Props.
所有这些道具。
All these props.
太棒了。
Fabulous.
我这里有一些积木，上面写着t a l k，就是'谈话'的意思，给看不到我们对话的人看的。
I have these blocks that, for anyone that can't see the conversation, say t a l k on them, talk.
太棒了。
Fabulous.
你来告诉我从哪里开始最好。
And you tell me the best place to start.
你知道最终目标。
You know the outcome.
你知道我想达到什么境界。
You know where I wanna get to.
想成为世界上最会聊天、最会说话、最有说服力、最有影响力、最讨人喜欢的谈话者。
Wanna be the best conversationist, the best talker, the most persuasive, influential, likable talker in the world.
所以我会跟随你的引导。
So I shall follow your lead.
天哪。
Oh my gosh.
这力量可不小。
It's a lot of power.
我喜欢这样。
I love it.
我太喜欢这样了。
I love it so much.
让我们从这开始。
Let's start with this.
我要你回想最近的一次对话。
I want you to think of a conversation that you had recently.
必须超过五分钟的那种。
It has to be more than five minutes long.
超过五分钟，是的。
More than five yes.
我立刻就能想到一个。
I can think of one immediately.
那是和我女朋友的一次对话，我只想让她知道我承认自己搞砸了。
It was a conversation I had with my girlfriend where I just wanted her to know that I accept the fact that I fucked up.
嗯。
Mhmm.
就是，我承认自己本应该在某个特定时刻更专注些，但我没有做到。
Like, I I I accept the fact that I should have been more present in a particular moment, and I wasn't.
我只是想，怎么说呢，直面这个错误。
And I just wanted to, like Own it.
直面它。
Own it.
并且向她传达这个意思。
And and convey that to her.
并且传达我的歉意，表示我理解她的感受。
And convey that I'm sorry, and I get it.
是的。
Yep.
这次我不会试图为我的任何行为找借口。
And this is not one where I'm gonna try and justify my whatever.
不会。
No.
实际上，客观来说，我本应该更专注和投入的。
Actually, objectively, I should have been more attentive and present.
没错。
Yep.
我只是想让她知道这一点。
I just wanted her to know that.
嗯。
Yep.
所以你向她承认了过错。
So you told her of an admission of blameworthiness.
为什么？
Why?
你为什么想那么做？
Why did you want to do that?
因为我觉得她是对的，我为我的行为感到后悔。
Because I felt that she was right, and I regretted my my behavior.
是的。
Yep.
所以有时候我并不觉得她是对的。
So sometimes I don't feel like she's right.
有时候我会在这里，你知道的，做出回应。
Sometimes I'm here to, you know, respond.
在这个特定情况下，我认为，实际上总的来说，我本应该更专注些。
In this particular scenario, I thought, you know, actually, on balance, I should have been more present.
这对她来说是个重要时刻。
This was an important time for her.
现在回想起来，我本不该那样表现的。
And in hindsight, that's not how I wish I'd behaved.
好的。
Okay.
你希望她在谈话过程中和结束时有什么感受？
How did you want her to feel during and at the end of this conversation?
被理解。
Understood.
就是这样。
And that was really it.
我希望她能感到被理解，并且与我心意相通。
It's like I wanted her to feel understood and, I guess, like connected to me.
但更重要的是，我只是希望她不必担心我不理解她。
But it's more it's really more I just wanted her to not worry that I didn't understand.
这样她就不必再重复说一遍了。
So she didn't have to say it again.
我只想确认我明白了。
I just wanted to know that I I get it.
嗯。
Mhmm.
嗯。
Mhmm.
而未来，我希望我当时表现得更得体些。
And that in future, I wish I behaved differently.
你希望在这次对话期间和之后感受到什么？
How did you want to feel during and after this conversation?
我想我是想卸下内疚感。
I guess I wanted to offload the guilt.
很好。
Good.
因为我当时感觉很糟糕。
Because I felt bad.
我感觉，不，实际上。
I felt like, no, actually.
这件事一直压在你的良心上。
And it was weighing on your conscience.
你当时想，我必须得说出来。
You were like, I gotta I gotta say that.
我必须承认这件事，因为它让我觉得自己像个混蛋。
I gotta own this because it's making me feel like a shithead.
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
太棒了。
Fabulous.
好的。
Okay.
当我们回顾对话并试图描述目标时，很快就会发现我们的目标非常复杂，我们想要的很多。
When we look back on our conversations and try and describe what our goals were, very quickly, start to realize that our goals are very complicated, that we want a lot of things.
我猜可能还有个时间因素。
I'm also guessing there may have been a time component.
你能稍微谈谈这个吗？
Can you talk a little bit about that?
比如，你实现这些目标有多少时间？
Like, how much time did you have to achieve these goals?
我是说，我似乎总是不够时间，所以就是...是的。
I mean, I never seem to have enough time, so it was like a it was yeah.
所以我大概有二十分钟左右。
So I I had about probably about twenty minutes.
很好。
Great.
嘿，这相当不错了。
Hey, that's pretty good.
嗯
Mhmm.
真希望我能和我丈夫有20分钟的独处时间
I wish I had twenty minutes with my husband.
好的
Okay.
我有一个帮助我们思考对话目标的框架，我称之为对话指南针
So I have a framework that helps us think about conversational goals, and I call it the conversational compass.
明白吗？
Okay?
就像你可以用指南针在沙漠或森林中找到出路一样，这个指南针帮助你决定谈话的方向而非行走的方向
And like a compass that you might use to find your way out of the desert or the forest, The compass helps you decide which way not to walk, but to talk.
懂了吗？
Okay?
那么X轴
So the x axis
我会把这个放到屏幕上，让能看到视频的人都能看到。
I'll put this on the screen for anyone that can see the video.
太好了。
Great.
横轴代表的是你们的关系。
The x axis, which runs horizontally, is about your relationship.
另外，我也会在下方附上链接。
Also, I'll link it below.
这个关系轴，高关系目标指的是你关心的那些服务于对方或你们关系的事情。
So this relational axis, high relational goals are things that you care about that are serving the other person or your relationship.
这段对话听起来关系目标很高。
This conversation sounded very high relational.
你真的就是，我真的很想让她知道我觉得自己像个混蛋，我正在承担责任，而且我很在乎，可能不会再犯了。
You're truly like, I just really want her to know that I feel like a shithead and that I'm owning it and, like, I care and I maybe won't do it again.
类似这样的话。
Something like that.
低关系目标是指我们关心且服务于自身的事物。
Low relational goals are things we care about that serve us.
在这种情况下，你说了类似'我想卸下内疚感'这样的话。
So in this case, you said something like, I wanna offload get rid of my guilt.
我当时感觉不太好。
I wasn't I was feeling bad.
Y轴代表信息交换。
The y axis is about information exchange.
高信息目标依赖于准确的信息交换。
High informational goals are hinge on exchanging accurate information.
这某种程度上是人类发展出沟通能力的根本原因，对吧？远古时期就是为了把我脑中的想法准确地传达给你。
It's sort of the reason human beings develop the ability to communicate at all, right, way back when, is to take what's in my brain, communicate it to you accurately.
但我们关心的许多事情都是低信息量的，所以重点不在于交换信息。
But we care about tons of stuff that is low informational, so it's not about exchanging information.
有时甚至是要隐藏信息。
And sometimes it's about concealing it.
在这种情况下，你有一个高信息目标。
In this case, you had a high informational goal.
你想说服她或向她证明你是个好人，本质上就是希望她留下来和你在一起，并且信任你。
You wanted to sort of persuade her or prove to her that you're a good guy and that she should stay with you, essentially, and trust you.
但你也有低信息目标，比如你不想让这次谈话在情感上令人不快。
But you also had low informational goals, like you didn't want it to be emotionally unpleasant to have this conversation.
你还有低信息目标，比如时间限制。
You also had low informational goals, like a time constraint.
你需要保护你和她双方的时间。
You needed to protect your time and her time.
所以我们总是受限于时间和认知资源。
And so we're always limited by time and cognitive resources.
这样做的目的是帮助我们以逻辑方式规划所有这些目标。
So the point of this is to help us plot all of those goals in a logical way.
每个象限都是有益的。
Each quadrant is good.
我们同时存在于这四个象限中。
We live in all four quadrants.
我们并非要选择其中某一个。
We're not trying to get to one or another.
这只是为了帮助我们描述所有真正关心的事情，几乎可以说是为了验证它们——听着，你想减轻内疚感是完全合理的。
It's just to help us describe all of the many things that we actually care about, almost to validate them and say, listen, it's legit that you wanted to relieve your guilt.
你想向她表明你正在承担这个错误，这非常值得赞赏。
It's super admirable that you wanted to signal to her that you're owning this mistake.
你有时间限制是合理的。
It's legit that you have time constraints.
你希望对话不会令人不快也是合理的。
It's legit that you don't want your conversations to be unpleasant.
因此每个象限都有个积极的名称。
So each of the quadrants gets a positive name.
高信息量、高关系性的是关于连接的。
High informational, high relational is about connection.
明白吗？
K?
通常你会听到沟通专家只谈论连接，这太狭隘了。
Often, you'll hear communications experts just talk about connection, which is too narrow.
这不是我们唯一关心的事情。
It's not the only thing that we care about.
在下方，低信息量高关系性的象限是关于享受的。
Down here, low informational, high relational is about savoring.
在这个语境中，信息量是什么意思？
And What does informational mean in this context?
比如你们需要相互交换多少准确信息。
Like, how much accurate information you are trying to you need to exchange with each other.
如果我们只是安静地坐在这里，我哼首歌然后说'我喜欢你的衬衫'之类的话。
If we just sat here kind of quietly, and I hummed a song because we and I said something like, I love your shirt.
我们并没有交换太多信息，但彼此之间可能进行着非常愉快的互动。
We're not exchanging a lot of information, but we might be having a very lovely interaction with each other.
所以并非每次对话都需要大量信息交换，尽管许多人认为应该如此。
So not every conversation is about high information exchange, though many people think that it is.
你认识这类人。
You know these people.
他们非常事务性。
They're very transactional.
他们认为对话就是把你已知的事情告诉别人，然后对方再把他们知道的事情回馈给你。
They feel like a conversation is where you just say things you know at other people, and that they're gonna say things they know back at you.
这是个重大误区。
That's a big mistake.
那么玩乐，我能看出来，是在右下象限的。
So having fun, I can see, is in the bottom right quadrant.
是的。
Yes.
因为这并不涉及大量信息交换
Because it's not about huge information exchange
没错。
That's right.
但它关乎连接。
But it is about connections.
说得对。
That's right.
好的。
Okay.
哦，这真的非常重要。
Oh, and it's really important.
我在哈佛的许多学生几乎忘记了这一象限。
Many of my students at Harvard almost forget about this quadrant.
他们觉得，如果我们不是在说服他人和做决策，就不算真正生活。
They're like, if we're not persuading and making decisions, we're not living.
对吧？
Right?
这确实非常重要。
Like, this is really important.
尤其是长期来看，如果我们相处得不愉快，我就不会期待再次与你交谈。
Especially over time, if we're not enjoying being with each other, I'm not gonna look forward to talking to you again.
这在工作中和工作之外都是如此。
That's true at work and outside of work.
左下象限本质上是辨别力。
Lower left is essentially discernment.
我们称之为保护。
We call it protection.
它保护你的时间、声誉和信息。
It's protecting your time, your reputation, information.
比如隐藏、保守秘密、快速行动。
So concealing, keeping secrets, moving quickly.
我们不能在这里坐好几个小时。
We can't sit here for hours and hours and hours.
然后要维护你的声誉，就像你在意给别人留下好印象一样。
And then protecting your reputation, like you care about making a positive impression on other people.
我希望你认为我聪明、热情、冷静且值得信赖。
I want you to see me as smart and warm and calm and trustworthy.
这些都是利己的、低关系性或低信息性的目标。
These are self serving, low relational or low informational goals.
然后我们来到左上角，这是低关系性的。
And then we get up to upper left, which is low relational.
它们是利己的。
They're self serving.
高信息性。
High informational.
这主要是与工作相关的目标，比如说服、决策、头脑风暴等等。
This is a lot of work related goal, persuasion, making decisions, brainstorming, etcetera.
所以如果我想被喜欢并拥有良好的人际关系，我需要站在这一边的正确位置。
So if I wanna be liked and have great relationships, I need to be on the right side of this.
这个准确吗？
Is that accurate?
那么，如果一个信任你、爱你的人私下告诉你一些事，然后你却告诉了所有人，会发生什么？
So what happens if someone who trusts you and loves you tells you something in confidence, and then you go tell everybody else?
你会失去信任？
You lose trust?
是的。
Yeah.
所以并不是说你只能活在这个罗盘的一边，因为辨别力很重要，明白吗？
So it's not that you can only live on this side of the compass because discernment matters Okay.
对吧？
For Right?
在这里，你将处于一种关系中，希望你们能一起头脑风暴，一起做决定。
So and here, you are gonna be in a relationship where, hopefully, you're gonna be, like, brainstorming things together, making decisions together.
即使是朋友之间，你们也会讨论：'今晚该去哪里吃饭？'
Even with a friend, you're like, oh, where should we go to dinner tonight?
你们需要共同协调做出这个选择。
You need to make that coordinate that choice well together.
所以我认为一个理想状态是尽可能多地处于罗盘的右侧。
So I think one aspiration is to try and be over on the right side as much as you can.
事实上，培养一种推动自己更频繁思考亲社会目标的心态，本身就是一种美德目标。
And in fact, having the mindset of pushing yourself to try and think about your goals that are more prosocial more often is a virtuous goal.
但是，听着。
But, like, listen.
我们都有实际需求。
We all have actual needs.
所以你不能只活在罗盘的右侧。
So, like, you can't only live on the right side of the compass.
关键在于如何灵活调整，以真正服务于你在乎的事物。
It's about moving around in a way that is savvy and actually serves what you care about.
是的。
Yep.
明白了。
Got you.
你对你描述的那次对话中的目标位置有概念吗？
Do you have a sense of where your goals from that conversation that you described would be?
道歉。
Apologize.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这属于高度关系导向而非信息导向。
Which is high relational and not very high on informational.
因为我没什么可说的，确实没太多内容。
Because I didn't have a bunch, I didn't have a lot to say.
只是简单地想让她知道我很抱歉。
It was just very simply about letting her know that I was sorry.
而且我没有长篇大论的解释，也没有一堆借口或辩解。
And it wasn't, I didn't have a big explanation or a bunch of excuses or justifications.
其实就是：听着，我搞砸了。
It was just, Listen, I fucked up.
是的，我明白了。
Yeah, I get it.
我们能稍微聊聊道歉这个话题吗？
Can we talk about apologies for a sec?
当然可以。
Sure.
我很喜欢你选择这个作为例子，以及你描述它的方式。
I love that you chose this as your example because and the way you're describing it.
我很欣赏你说：我没有长篇大论地解释为什么那么做。
I love how you're saying, I didn't go into a huge explanation of why I did it or anything.
更多人应该这样道歉。
More people should apologize that way.
很多人在道歉时本能反应是重提问题，找借口或解释自己为什么做错。
A lot of people, their instinct when they're apologizing is to revisit the problem and sort of make excuses or explain why they did the thing wrong.
这并不奏效。
It's not effective.
更有效的方式是你所描述的——主动承担责任并说：听着，我就是搞砸了，我真的很抱歉，对此我感到非常难受。
What is more effective is what you're describing, taking ownership and saying, look, I I just messed up, and I'm so sorry, and I feel awful about it.
而道歉最有效的部分其实是承诺改变。
And the most effective component of an apology is actually making a promise to change.
如果你对女友说：我意识到自己搞砸了。
If you say to your girlfriend, I've realized I messed up here.
我不会再犯了。
I'm not gonna do it again.
这是我未来会改进的具体方案。
Here's how I'm gonna be different in the future, like a concrete plan.
听到你已考虑过这点非常令人信服。
It's so compelling to hear that you've thought about that.
而且这是可衡量的，因为她能在未来看到你是否兑现了这个承诺。
And then it's measurable because she can see in the future, do you actually live up to that promise?
你是否履行了不再犯同样错误的承诺？
Do you follow through on this promise to never do make the mistake again?
道歉有没有过度的时候？
Is there a point where you can apologize too much?
我们研究过这个问题。
We studied this.
我对此进行了一些研究。
I ran some studies on this.
我们首先观察了日常对话中的道歉频率。
We started by looking at frequency of apologies made during normal conversations.
过度道歉的情况相当罕见，但在一次对话中，如果道歉超过两次，就会更像是不断提醒对方发生的坏事。
It's quite rare for someone to over apologize, but it does seem like within one conversation, if you apologize more than twice, it starts to be more of a reminder of the bad thing that happened.
就像你不断重提这件事，反而让人停留在负面情绪中无法前进。
Like, you just keep revisiting it, and it brings you back to the negativity rather than moving forward.
我们还研究了大量假释听证会中的道歉案例，比如那些犯下严重罪行的人，我们分析了他们在假释听证会上的道歉类型。
We also studied apologies in a really large dataset of parole hearings, like among people who had committed really serious crimes, and we looked at the types of apologies that they made during their parole hearings.
而在那种情况下，似乎你实际上不可能过度道歉。
And there, it seems like you actually can't over apologize.
也就是说，道歉次数越多越好。
Like, more is better.
而且，最有效的部分仍然是承诺未来会做出改变。
And, again, the most effective component is making a promise to change in the future.
我出去后要参加匿名戒酒会。
I'm gonna go when I get out, I'm going be an AA.
我会和祖母一起生活。
I'm going to live with my grandmother.
这是我将要做的工作。
Here's the job I'm going to do.
无论具体计划是什么，实际上你更有可能获释出狱。
Whatever the plan is, you're actually more likely to get out of jail.
在进行那些艰难对话前，人们需要做什么准备吗？
And going into those difficult conversations, is there anything one needs to do to prepare?
因为我们的生活充满了艰难的对话，而实际上正是对这些对话的回避最终最严重地破坏了我们的生活。
Because our lives are full of difficult conversations, and actually it's the avoidance of them that ends up messing up our lives the most.
所以当你想到我们都必须与难相处的人进行的艰难对话时，我需要为此做准备吗？
So when you think about difficult conversations that we all have to have with difficult people, do I have to prepare for that?
这其实非常自然。
So this is very natural.
几乎所有你听到谈论沟通的人都会倾向于关注艰难的对话。
Almost every person that you hear talk about communication tends to focus on difficult conversations.
我想告诉你，这实际上是对对话世界非常狭隘的看法。
I'm gonna suggest to you that that is a very narrow view of the conversational world, actually.
事实上，'艰难对话'这个说法有点用词不当。
And in fact, thinking about difficult conversations is a little bit of a misnomer.
并不是说有些对话是艰难的，有些是轻松的。
It's not like there are some conversations that are difficult and some that are easy.
而是在每一次对话中，都可能出现意见分歧的时刻——我们用不同的语言表达相同的意思，情绪不一致，或者动机不同。
It's that in every conversation, there can be moments of difference where we use different language to mean the same thing, where we have an incongruence in our emotions, where we have a difference in motives.
我想给你建议，但你并不想采纳。
I want to give you advice, but you don't want to take it.
或者某些分歧会触及我们身份认同的差异。
Or something dips down to a difference in our identities.
我是美国人，而你是英国人。
I'm American, and you're a Brit.
所以每当你在所有这些不同方面遇到这些转瞬即逝的分歧时刻，或许这里该有张图。
So anytime you encounter these little fleeting moments of difference in all of these different ways and maybe there was an image here.
让我看看。
Let me see.
没有。
No.
不在这里。
It's not here.
看起来像是图层。
It looks like layers.
我们谈论它就像地球的层次一样。
We talk about it like layers of the Earth.
地表之上是人们交谈时你听到的言语和声音。
And above the surface are the words and sounds that you hear while people are talking.
地表层就是人们的情绪。
Right at the surface are people's emotions.
所以我感到兴奋，而你却感到疲惫和无聊。
So I feel excited, but you feel tired and bored.
这将会很困难。
That's gonna be, tough.
就在那下方是人们的动机。
Right below that are people's motives.
我想回到指南针的话题。
What I want to back to the compass.
我想要实现的目标与你不同。
What I want to achieve is different than what you want to achieve.
我们每个人心中都带着一个指南针行走，而这些指南针彼此各不相同。
We're all walking around with a compass in our mind, and they're different from each other.
再往下一层是我们的信念。
Right below that are our beliefs.
对吧？
Right?
我认为移民是个问题，而你则认为人工智能比人类移民问题严重得多。
I believe that immigration is a problem, and you believe that AI is a way bigger problem than human immigration.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我们该如何讨论这个问题呢？
How do we talk about that in a way?
然后所有这些都会沉入我们身份认同的地球模型中最炽热的岩浆层。
And then all of it gets dips down to the the sort of hot magma in this layers of the Earth model of our identities.
所以即便是轻松的对话——比如约会时、夫妻开车时、朋友聚会看电影时——你都可能随时因任何原因遇到这些小困难时刻，你需要掌握相关技巧来确保气氛不会变得太紧张。
So even an easy conversationwe're on a date, or two spouses are driving in a car, or friends are hanging out watching a movielike, you can stumble upon these little moments of difficulty anytime, for any reason, and you need to have the skill set to be able to make sure the temperature doesn't get too hot.
这套技能具体是什么？
What is that skill set?
这方面有非常出色的研究。
There's fabulous research on this.
我发现它对我的生活极其有帮助。
I have found it incredibly helpful in my life.
朱莉娅·明森、迈克·约曼斯和汉娜·柯林斯关于'接受度'的研究。
Research by Julia Minson, Mike Yeomans, Hannah Collins called receptiveness.
即对对立观点的接受能力。
So it's receptiveness to opposing viewpoints.
这既是心态问题——当有人提出看似荒谬的观点时，不要消极评判。
And it's both the mindsetwhen someone comes to you with something that seems crazy, you don't judge it negatively.
你必须对抗人类本能，不要第一反应就是'这太疯狂了'。
You have to fight the human instinct to think of it as, like, that's crazy.
这是错误的。
That's wrong.
现在我要赢了
And now I'm gonna win.
现在我要证明我是对的而你是错的
And now I'm gonna be right and prove you wrong.
因为所有这些本能都会毁掉我们的对话和关系
Because all of those instincts ruin our conversations and our relationships.
为什么？
Why?
它让我们在接收端变得防御性很强
It makes us defensive on the receiving end.
它让我们在攻击端显得指责性和敌对
It makes us sort of accusatory and hostile on the attack end.
一旦我们进入指责和防御模式，对话就破裂了
Once we get into an accusation and defense mode, the conversation is broken down.
这不再关乎连接、品味、保护和进步
It's no longer about connection, savoring, protecting, and advancing.
我们现在所处的这个新世界，根本无法实现我们的任何目标。
We're now in this new world that is not achieving any of our goals.
假设有人来找我，有人来找你，说些疯狂的话，他们说，你知道，天空是紫色的。
Just so someone comes to me and some comes to you and says something crazy, they say, you know, the sky is purple.
是啊。
Yeah.
实际上它不是蓝色的。
It's actually it's not blue.
是紫色的。
It's purple.
这里有一句神奇的短语，你可以在那一刻说出来。
Here's a magical phrase that you can say in that moment.
你觉得天空是紫色的，这很合理。
It makes sense that you feel that the sky is purple.
你兴奋地告诉我天空是紫色的，这很合理。
It makes sense that you feel excited to tell me that the sky is purple.
你对y感到x是很正常的。
It makes sense that you feel x about y.
你对播客持怀疑态度是很正常的。
It makes sense that you feel skeptical about podcasts.
你觉得我说话太快而感到恼火是很正常的。
It makes you it makes sense that you feel annoyed that I speak quickly.
你对AI感到担忧是很正常的。
It makes sense that you are worried about AI.
无论人们感受到什么，无论他们向你表达什么，我们都可以认可这种感受，因为他们脑海中的想法就是他们的现实。
Whatever people are feeling, whatever they express to you, we can validate that feeling because whatever's going on in their mind is their reality.
在我们继续做其他事情之前，必须先把这句话说出来，即使我们接下来要强烈反对他们的观点。
And we have to say that out loud before we go on to do anything else, even if we're about to disagree with them vehemently.
但我们必须先表达认可的部分，就像治疗师经常做的那样，这样才能让他们感到被倾听，像是'啊，没错'。
But we have to say the validation piece first, just like therapists do all the time, in order for them to feel heard and like, oh, yeah.
我在这里感到安全，这样我就能站在你这边，现在我们要一起解决这个奇怪的问题了。
I'm safe here so that I can join you on your side of the table, and now we're gonna untangle this weird problem together.
你说天空是紫色的。
You say the sky is purple.
多跟我说说。
Tell me more.
比如，你是怎么觉得天空是紫色的？
Like, what how did you come to feel like the sky is purple?
你是色盲吗？
Are do you are you color blind?
你是看所有东西都是紫色的吗？
Are you do you see everything in purple?
这样我就能询问你是如何形成这个观点的，我们可以一起探讨，我能了解更多。
Like, now I can ask you questions about how you came to that perspective, and we can learn I can learn about it.
我猜风险在于你不想
I guess the risk is you don't wanna
去认可错误的事情？
Validate something wrong?
是啊。
Yeah.
为什么不呢？
Why not?
你不想显得像是在说——因为如果我说'你觉得天空是紫色的很有道理'，但实际上它是蓝色的。
You don't wanna appear to be saying because if I say, it makes sense that you think the sky is purple, but it's actually blue.
‘认为’这个词很重要。
The word thinks is important.
‘你对y有x感受是合理的’这种说法。
It's it makes sense that you feel x about y.
嗯。
Mhmm.
而不是‘你认为x关于y是合理的’。
Not it makes sense that you think x about y.
‘认为’更像是一种认知行为。
Thinking is like a cognition.
这样听起来会有居高临下的风险吗？
Is the risk of it sounding patronizing?
也许吧。
Maybe.
但在实际应用中，这种感觉真的非常、非常好。
But in in in practice, it feels really, really good.
当我进行这个练习时——我在课堂上会做一个轮流分享的活动。
When I run this so I run an exercise in my class where we go around.
假设有一个五人小组，每个人需要分享一些东西。
Let's say there's there's a group of five students, and you have to share something.
我们从简单的开始，比如分享一首你喜欢的歌。
We start easy, like share one song you love.
然后下一个人必须先肯定前一个人的分享，才能接着分享他们最喜欢的下一首歌。
And then the next person has to validate that before they share their favorite next song.
这样大家就能快速轮流进行下去。
And you go around and around very quickly.
所以当说‘好的’时，会感觉非常刻意。
And so it feels very contrived to say, okay.
你必须说：我很喜欢你爱那首泰勒·斯威夫特的歌。
You have to say, I love that you love that Taylor Swift song.
这太有趣了。
That's so interesting.
其实我并不喜欢泰勒·斯威夫特。
I actually don't like Taylor Swift.
虽然感觉很刻意，但课后和学生们交流时，他们会说：是的，我知道我们在做什么。
It feels very contrived, but when you talk to the students after it, they say, yes, I knew what we were doing.
确实会觉得对他人歌曲偏好的评价有些夸张。
It did feel over the top to say that about people's song preferences.
尽管如此，当听到旁边的人说‘我很喜欢你爱那首泰勒·斯威夫特的歌’时，感觉依然很棒。
And still, it felt amazing to have the person next to me say, I love that you love that Taylor Swift song.
我们所有人都如此渴望被认可，以至于即使是荒谬的认可也会让人感觉美妙。
Validation we are all so hungry for validation that even ridiculous validation feels amazing.
所以到了第二轮，当每个人都在分享他们真正面临的困境时，旁边的人会说'哇，我真的很抱歉'
So then, when you get to round two, and everybody's sharing something that they're really struggling with, and the person next to them says, wow, I'm so sorry.
那听起来确实非常非常艰难
That sounds really, really hard.
你因为妈妈的事感到难过是很正常的
It makes sense that you feel upset about your mom.
现在你养成了这个习惯，让他们对确实值得认可的事情感觉良好
Now you've got that habit, and you're making them feel quite good about something that actually does deserve that validation.
所以关键在于培养这些习惯，无论差异或分歧来自何处
So it's all about, like, developing these habits no matter where the difference or disagreement is coming from.
与之相反的做法是什么？
What's the opposite of that?
相反的就是人们自然反应的方式，倾向于本能地试图获胜、证明对方是错的、证明自己是对的
The opposite is what how people naturally respond, tend to naturally respond, which is by trying to win and prove them wrong and prove that they're right.
就像你说天空是紫色的，我就会说'这太荒谬了'
So you say the sky is purple, and I say, well, that's crazy.
天空是蓝色的。
Sky's blue.
那我们的对话会走向何方？
Then where does our conversation go?
这对你来说感觉糟透了。
It feels terrible for you.
这太奇怪了。
It's so strange.
我了解到这一点是因为有一次我雇佣了这个人，当我们讨论想法时，他开口说的第一个词总是'我不同意'，然后才会阐述自己的观点。
I learned this because I employed this person once, and this person, when we'd talk about ideas, the first word out of their mouth was always, I disagree, and then they'd make their point.
没错。
That's right.
我不知道具体是什么原因，但我注意到这会让我感到很不舒服。
And I don't know what it was about it, but I noticed that it would, like, get my back up.
当然。
Of course.
所以我会说我不知道。
And so I'd say I don't know.
我会说，我觉得我们应该这样做。
I'd say, I think we should do it like this.
我不同意。
I disagree.
是啊。
Yeah.
然后他们会提出自己的观点。
And then they'd make their point.
我记得当时在想，这真是
And I remember thinking, that's such a
这太讽刺了，因为他们的目的是说服你。
And it's so ironic because their goal is to persuade you.
到最后，他们希望你能认同他们的立场。
At the end of it, they want you to agree with their position.
这完全不是说服的正确方式。
That's not at all how persuasion works.
我们改变信念的唯一方式通常需要经过多次对话，而且是在我们喜欢与之交谈、尊重并钦佩的人身边。
The only way that we change our beliefs is is usually across many conversations, and we're around someone we like talking to and respect and have admiration for.
然后随着时间的推移，我们会逐渐倾向于接受他们不同观点的温和影响。
And then over time, we sort of bend to the gentle pressure of their differing viewpoint.
如果我说：'我不同意'。
If I say, I disagree.
那现在我们就来争论一番吧。
Now let's fight about it.
你会立即戒备起来，而且你不会享受与我的对话，即使你是对的。
You're you get your backup, and you're not having you're not enjoying talking to me, even if you're right.
对吧？
And right?
就像，那一刻的对错并不重要。
Like, it's not about being right or wrong in that moment.
这里的目标是让对话保持在情感层面，使其能够持续进行，这样你们就能继续交流。
The goal here is to keep the conversation in an emotional place where it can continue, so you can continue to engage.
这些研究人员在接纳性研究中发现，如果你用试探性语言表达观点，比如'我在想天空会不会是另一种颜色'，而不是斩钉截铁地说'天空就是蓝色的'。
And that's what these researchers find in this receptiveness research, is if you qualify your statement saying, like, I wonder if the sky could be a different color, rather than the sky is blue with certainty.
所有这些都属于缓冲性语言。
There are all of these sort of hedging language.
你可以把自己分成多个部分。
You can divide yourself into multiple parts.
所以如果你对我说天空是紫色的，我会说：'天哪'。
So if you said to me the sky is purple, I would say, oh my gosh.
作为你的朋友和一名画家，这让我非常感兴趣。
As your friend and as a painter, that is so intriguing to me.
但作为一名生物学家或气象学家，也许我们应该研究一下这个说法。
As a biologist or as a as a meteorologist, maybe we should investigate that.
实际上就是把自己分成两个持不同意见的部分。
Literally dividing yourself into two disagreeing parts.
这通常是我们真实的感受。
It's usually how we actually feel.
所以如果你母亲对你说了一些你觉得疯狂的话，你可以说：'作为你的女儿，我对你持有这个观点非常感兴趣。'
So if your mother says something crazy to you that seems crazy to you, you could say, as your daughter, I'm so intrigued that you've come to hold that perspective.
我很想了解更多。
I'd love to hear more.
你知道，作为Z世代的代表，我知道我的朋友们会希望你让我这么说。
You know, as a representative of Gen Z, I know my friends would want you want me to say this.
这意味着你可以同时持有两种观点，这对维持对话非常有帮助。
It means that you can hold two perspectives at once, and it is very helpful to the other person to keep the conversation going.
但这种接纳性沟通的所有要素都有这种特点。
But all of the elements of this receptiveness recipe have this flavor.
这有点出人意料。
It's a little surprising.
我认为人们常常把这些特质视为软弱，因为我们的本能是试图获胜并证明自己是对的。
I think often people think of these types of things as weakness because it's like our instinct is to try to win and be right.
而我想说的是，并非如此。
And instead, what I'm saying is, no.
对你的主张有所保留。
Hedge your claims.
表现出你对某些事情并不确定。
Show that you're uncertain about stuff.
认可他们的感受。
Validate their feelings.
将自己分成不同意见的部分，因为你无法确定任何事情，这样才能让对话继续下去，让你在长期中有那么一丝希望说服对方。
Divide yourself into disagreeing parts because you're not certain about anything in order to keep the conversation going so that you have any shred of hope of persuading them over the longer term.
我记得塔莉·沙拉特告诉过我一个研究。
I remember Tally Sharat telling me about a study.
她告诉我她是伦敦的神经科学家，她说他们把两个人放进脑部扫描仪，让他们看照片并就某样东西的价格达成一致。
She told me she's a neuroscientist in London and she told me they put two people in a brain imaging scanner and got them to look at photos and come to agreement on the price of something.
是的。
Yes.
在这些研究中——我在这里超级意译了，她可能听得直皱眉。
And then eventually in these studies, I'm super paraphrasing here, she's probably cringing.
我想我知道你说的是哪项研究。
I think I know what study you're talking about.
哦，你能
Oh, could you
代替解释一下吗？
explain it instead?
是的。
Yes.
他们研究了当你处于分歧与一致情境时，大脑哪些区域会被激活。
So they studied what lights up in your brain when you're in a situation of disagreement versus agreement.
实际上，当有人反对你时，这对你的心智消耗更大。
And it is actually more taxing to your mind when someone is disagreeing with you.
就像神经警报突然响起，突然之间，就像你描述的那样——你害怕什么，我立刻戒备起来？
It's like these neurological alarm bells go off, and all of a sudden, like you described, what was your afraid, my back goes up?
是啊，后背都绷直了。
What was Yeah, back goes up.
我一直保持戒备状态，没错。
Kept my back up, yeah.
就是这样。
That's it.
这其实是大脑的反应。
It's actually in your brain.
你的大脑会进入戒备状态。
Your brain goes up.
一旦这个过程开始，就很难继续深入交流了。
And it's hard, it's very hard to continue to engage once that process is underway.
是啊。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
有些人称之为杏仁核劫持，这种说法并不完全准确。
Some people call it amygdal hijacking, which is not quite right.
但当你处于意见分歧的情境时，大脑确实会呈现不同状态。
But your brain does look different when you're in a situation of disagreement.
所以我们在对话中能做的任何缓和措施，让抵触情绪不升级——嗯。
So whatever we can do conversationally to sort of temp that down so that your back doesn't go up Mhmm.
都会非常有帮助。
Is going to be quite helpful.
她展示了脑部扫描图像，当有人反对你时的脑部活动。
She showed pictures of the brain in these scans when someone disagrees with you.
我记得——可能我把这个说反了——当时大脑几乎像是关闭了接收功能
And I think, and I might be getting this inverted, that it was almost like the brain had shut down to receptiveness
是的。
Yes.
就在那一刻。
In that moment.
就像我在书中写的那章《不要反对》时一样，这章是故意写得具有挑衅性的，因为人们会想，你是说？
It was like so I always I when I wrote this chapter in my book called do not disagree, it's it's an intentionally provocative chapter because people think, do you mean?
永远不要与任何人持不同意见吗？
Never disagree with anybody?
不是的。
No.
就像是...对。
It's like Yeah.
别让你开口第一句话就是'我不同意'。
Don't make the first thing you say I disagree.
说得对。
That's right.
可以稍后再表达。
It can come later.
百分百同意。
A 100%.
反对可以稍后再说，但首先要表达的是'哦，你这么说真有意思'
It can come later, but first has to come like, oh, it's so intriguing that you said that.
我对此很着迷
I'm so fascinated.
你有这种感觉是很合理的
And it makes sense that you might feel that way.
我在想是否...然后你可以继续表达，而不是直接说'我不同意'
I wonder if and then you can go on instead of I disagree.
我遇到一个叫安妮的女孩，她总是说'是的，而且'而不是'但是'
I met a girl called Anne who always said, yes, and instead of but.
很好
Good.
这让我很震惊，因为这种做法太不一样了
And it shocked me because it was so different.
和她对话时，你说完一个观点后她会说'是的，而且...'然后才表达她的看法
I having a conversation with her, you say something to her and you go, I think this, and she goes, yes, and and then she would make her point.
虽然可能是完全相反的观点，但我注意到她这么做，而且我非常喜欢这种方式。
And it could be a complete disagreement, but I noticed she was doing it, and I loved it.
是啊。
Yeah.
噢，确实。
Oh, yeah.
我们通常会把'是的，而且'这种表达方式与即兴喜剧、幽默表演等联系在一起。
And you we often think of the yes, and as part of sort of improv comedy, humor, etcetera.
喜剧演员们其实揭示了一个关于广泛对话的更深刻道理。
They were the comedians are really on to something much more profound about conversation broadly.
如果你能抱着'是的，而且'这种心态或精神立场，本质上就是在说：'即使你说的听起来有点离谱，我也会先选择相信你'。
If you can come from a sort of mindset or, like, spiritual place of yes, and, essentially, you're saying, I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt here even though it what you're saying seems a little crazy.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这正是建立良好人际关系所需要的。
That's what is required to have great relationships.
我们都会有这样的时刻，当某人感受到或说出看似疯狂的事情时，如果我们用否定方式回应，那就是摧毁关系的开始。
It's like we're all gonna have these moments where someone feels something or says something that seems crazy, and if you react to it in an invalidating way, that's how we kill our relationships.
我们需要彻底摒弃'但是'这个词吗？
Do we need to kill the word but?
因为最终情况往往是：有人会说完你刚才关于维系关系的观点后说'是的，我完全理解，'
Because what ends up happening is someone will say, the thing you just said about validating relationships, yes, I completely understand.
我认为你说得很对，艾莉森，但是——当我说'但是'时，就像用橡皮擦把你刚才的话全擦掉了。
I think you made a great point, Alison, but and the minute I say but, it's kind of like I've just taken an eraser to everything you just said.
我非常想摆脱'但是'这个词。
I would love to get rid of the word but.
不是指有两个't'的'but'，而是只有一个't'的'but'。
Not but with two t's, but but with one t.
是的。
Yes.
没错。
Yeah.
你从来不需要它。
You never need it.
你可以表达同样的观点，用'而且'来说。
You can make the same point and say and.
但是，就像，它完全...它立刻表明
But, like, it just completely it just it immediately says
它还暴露出你正坐在那里，处于一种'我等不及要反驳'的状态。
It revert it also reveals that you're sitting there in a state of I I can't wait.
就像，我舌尖上正酝酿着迫不及待要说的、与你观点相反的话。
I'm like, on the tip of my tongue is something I can't wait to say that's opposite of what you're saying.
这种态度的本质是对抗性的。
And it's the the spirit of it is is antagonistic.
我们在节目中讨论对话艺术时注意到，人们非常在意是否讨人喜欢。
One of the things we notice when we have conversations on this show about about conversation is people really care about likability.
是的。
Yes.
比如，他们真的很想知道是什么让他们不受欢迎。
Like, they they really wanna know what's making them disliked.
嗯。
Mhmm.
他们真的很想知道如何被人喜欢。
They really wanna know how to be liked.
很好。
Good.
所以被喜欢是一个巨大的动力，但这只是我们在获取地位时关心的众多因素之一。
So being liked is a huge drive, but it's just one of many things that we we care about in terms of gaining status.
所谓地位就是尊重、钦佩、他人眼中的喜爱。
So status is respect, admiration, liking in the eyes of other people.
喜爱通常来自于某种温暖和魅力。
Liking is usually comes from sort of warmth and charm.
钦佩往往来自于对能力的认可。
Admiration often comes from, like, perceptions of competence.
所以我们希望同时具备亲和力与能力，这是最理想的。
So we want warmth and competence at once, ideally.
好的。
Okay.
让我们回到过去。
Let's go back in time.
我们要不要谈谈谈话框架？
Should we talk about the talk framework?
因为在整个框架中会有一些关于如何更受欢迎的线索。
Because there are gonna be little clues about how to be better liked across the whole framework.
好的。
Okay.
好的。
Okay.
让我们从字母t开始。
Let's start with t.
关于 Bayt 播客
Bayt 提供中文+原文双语音频和字幕，帮助你打破语言障碍，轻松听懂全球优质播客。