路易·汤姆林森："那天房间很冷"。当警察敲门时...我就明白了

确实从未如此深入谈论过这件事。生活中没有什么能让你为那种情况做好准备，但当时我觉得自己失败了。这是事实。说实话，我至今仍在消化这件事。

Not really ever spoke about it in-depth like this. Nothing prepares you in life for those kind of situations, but I felt like I failed at the time. That's the truth. And it's still something that I'm unpacking still, to be honest.

Louis，我们和你妹妹Lottie聊过这事。你想看看

Louis, we spoke to your sister, Lottie, about this. Would you like to see

吗？Louis Tamlin说道。我小时候从没想过自己会成为歌手。我成长在一个工人阶级小镇，七口人挤在三居室的房子里。

it? Louis Tamlin says. I didn't spend my life as a young lad thinking I was gonna be a singer. Like, I grew up in a working class town. Seven of us living in a three bed house.

我妈妈经常上夜班，她不得不既当妈又当爹。所以我得负责帮妹妹们准备上学。Duncaster的人根本没这种机会。后来《X音素》出现了。

Like, my mom used to work a lot at night. She had to play dad as well. So I would have to get my sisters ready for school. So people in Duncaster didn't get those opportunities. And then the X Factor came along.

我参加了三次海选。第一次失败，第二次又失败。记得当时觉得彻底崩溃，哭得更凶了。但她让我相信自己无所不能。所以我没有逃避，而是想着：我知道我配得上。

I auditioned three times. The first time I failed, the second time I failed. I remember thinking, this is utterly crushing, just sobbing to me more. But she made me feel like I could do anything. So instead of running away, it was like, I know I deserve it.

我知道我能行。那么该如何重拾信心去参加第三次？

I know I can. So how do I relearn confidence and go for a third time?

当我回想前五六年发生的事，简直不可思议。

When I think about what happened in the preceding five or six years, it is crazy.

是的。最难应对的就是失去正常生活的感觉。在一个工人阶级小镇长大，我对所获得的成功和金钱有种愧疚感。而在乐队内部的个人工作方面，我也真的、真的挣扎了很久。

Yeah. And the toughest thing to deal with is just the lack of normality. And part of growing up in a working class town, I have this, like, guilt for the success and money that I've earned. And then personal work within the band, I really, really struggled with.

但你共同创作了15张白金单曲。

But you co wrote 15 platinum singles.

但我想要做得更多，主要是为了自己，我没意识到家庭时间的珍贵。我在乐队待得越久，在家的时间就越少——比如我那对同卵双胞胎的妹妹们。我从没告诉过她们，其实我连区分她们的自信都没有。这说明我在家的时间少得可怜。

But I wanted to do more, but mostly for me, I didn't realize the value of family time. And the more time I spent at the band, the more time I spent away from home, like two of my sisters who are identical twins. I've never told them this, but I wasn't confident enough to tell them apart. That shows just how little I was at home.

然后这一切就结束了。

And then it ends.

最奇怪的是，24岁时突然意识到，之后的路只会走下坡了。

And what was really strange was being 24 years old, realizing that the only way is down from it.

Louis，你生命中经历了太多事。一个年轻人该如何哀悼这些失去？

Louis, there's so many things that happened in your life. How does a young man grieve?

这不是我常谈论的话题，但我很乐意分享，因为我不愿被这些经历定义。现在请你继续说吧。

It's not really something I speak loads about, but I'm I'm I'm happy to because I cannot have that defined. The floor is yours.

请给我三十秒时间。我想说两件事。首先，衷心感谢你们每周收听我们的节目，这对我们所有人来说意义重大，这确实是我们从未想过也不敢想象的梦想成真。但其次，我们感觉这个梦想才刚刚开始。

Just give me thirty seconds of your time. Two things I wanted to say. The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week. It means the world to all of us, this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place. But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started.

如果你喜欢我们的节目，请加入24%的固定听众行列，在这个应用上关注我们。我向你承诺：我会竭尽全力让这个节目现在和未来都做到最好。我们会邀请你想听的嘉宾，继续保留你喜爱的所有节目特色。谢谢。

And if you enjoy what we do here, please join the 24% of people that listen to this podcast regularly and follow us on this app. Here's a promise I'm gonna make to you. I'm gonna do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future. We're gonna deliver the guests that you want me to speak to and we're gonna continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show. Thank you.

路易斯，要理解你，我最需要了解什么背景？

Louis, to understand you, what is the earliest context that I need?

对我人生影响最大的是，大概在四五岁前，我的世界里只有母亲。最早的记忆就是和她进行温暖而走心的对话。我为自己容易流露情感、乐于谈论感受并与他人深入交流而自豪，这绝对是她从我幼时就培养的特质，至今仍在帮助我应对人生。

Something that played a massive role for me in my life was the fact that maybe for the first four or five years of my life, it was just me and my mom. My first proper memories are just kind of having like really kind of nice and warm and really like emotional conversations with my mom. I think something that I'm kind of proud of is that I'm I find it easy to be emotional, and I kind of like talking about my feelings, and I like getting into conversation with other people about that. And that was definitely something that she instilled in me from from, like, a really young age. And something that still definitely really helps me today, especially, you know, navigating through the life like I have.

能够谈论情绪和感受，对我的心理工作其实至关重要，明白吗？

Those kind of things have been able to talk about your emotions and your feelings, like, vitally important, actually, for the job that I do mentally. You know?

所以你父亲不在身边？你的生父在你出生后不久就离开了？

So your your father wasn't around. He your biological father left soon after you were born?

是的。这事我不常提起，但愿意聊聊。他完全没参与我的人生，这辈子只见过三次。

Yeah. It's not really something I speak loads about, but I'm I'm I'm happy to. Yeah. He wasn't he wasn't involved in my life at all. I've met him, like, three times ever.

所以我想，你的母亲在你生活中扮演了多重角色？

So your your mother played, I guess, several roles in your life?

是的。我妈一直很擅长这个。我想她意识到父亲不会在身边，所以她必须同时扮演父亲的角色。她身上有种顽皮的本能，作为母亲确实激发了我这方面的特质。这部分源于她本身的性格，部分也是她在努力扮演那种父亲的角色，你知道的，就是那种会怂恿你去做些无伤大雅的傻事。

Yeah. My mom was always really good at that. I think she realized the fact that my dad wasn't gonna be around, that she had to play dad as well. And she had this kind of mischievous instinct in her mom and definitely kind of inspired some of that. And and and part of that was her being her, but part of that was also trying to play that kind of dad role, you know, where you kind of lock about and encourage to do kind of silly things that aren't gonna hurt, you know?

她真的是...说起这个我可能会情绪激动。她绝对是我认识的最好的女性。同时我也觉得，能有她作为人生导师实在太幸运了，因为我所期待的朋友和伴侣等关系中所有的品质，她身上都具备。

She was just, like, I could get emotional about it. She's just the best woman I ever knew, definitely. And also just, I feel so vitally, like, lucky to be able to have her as my mentor, because she just, everything that I look to in, like, friends and partners, etcetera, they're the kind of things that that she embodied, really.

你有兄弟姐妹吗？

And you had siblings? Yeah. Lots of them.

有，很多。我童年大部分时间里，我们七个人挤在三居室的房子里。虽然现在稍微适应了些，但我一直很难忍受独处。随着年龄增长，我越发意识到这是因为年轻时根本没有独处的机会。

Yeah. Lots of them. So when when I grew up, like, kind of like the bulk of my childhood, there was seven of us living in a three bed house. I've got a little bit better at it, but one thing I really have struggled with is being on my own. And and the more I've thought about that as I've got a bit older, it's because I just never had an opportunity to be when I was young.

当你住在三居室却有七个人时，大家真的是朝夕相处。我特别怀念那种日子——当哥哥是我生命中最美好的经历之一，可以说定义了我的人生意义。我就是喜欢照顾别人，所以当兄长这个角色让我觉得生来就该如此。

When when you live in a house that, you know, it's three bedroom, there's seven people living in it, you're literally all living on top of each other, and I I loved that. Like, it was like one of the best things that ever happened to me being an older brother. Like, I just it's just it's like one of the definitions of my purpose, I would say. I just like to look after people, man. So, like, being an older brother is like a role I feel like I was always supposed to do.

后来随着人生境遇变化，当某些事情变得更具挑战性时，这个兄长的角色确实变得更加重要了。

And then I think even, you know, as we move through life and a couple of things got more challenging, that role has become more prevalent, definitely.

我很幸运能与多年来认识你的许多人交谈。

I I was fortunate enough to speak to quite a few people that have known you over the years.

我听说了。那很酷。确实很酷。是的。

I heard. That was cool. That was cool. Yeah.

我刚才还在听那些对话的录音，比如尼扎姆。嗯。他是你童年的挚友对吧？嗯。还有卡尔，你的摄影师和摄像师

And I was I was just listening to some of the the recordings of those conversations, like Nizam Yep. Who's your childhood best friend? Mhmm. Yeah. Cal, who your photographer and videographer

是的。我爱卡尔。

Yeah. Love Cal.

多年来，还有洛蒂，你最小的妹妹，比你小六岁。嗯。有趣的是，他们都提到一点——你其实从未改变。

Throughout the years, and Lottie, who's your youngest sister, six years younger. Mhmm. And it's interesting that one of the things they all came back to is that you you really haven't changed.

我很感激这个评价。我一直在努力保持。是的。

I appreciate that. I get to be doing some. So Yeah.

但他们都这么说。你童年的挚友说，最了不起的是你依然保持着当年的本质，从未回头觉得自己比从前他认识的那个你更了不起。

But that's what they said. Your best friend from childhood said that's one the most remarkable things that you're still made out of the same stuff, and you've never turned around and thought you were anything more than you were back then when he knew you.

这就是我喜欢他的一点，作为朋友来说。我从没当面对他说过。但他真的很真实，懂吗？他从未对我们摆架子，说什么'我现在是大人物了'之类的话，也从没让那种自负表现出来，更没因我们感到难堪。

And that's one thing I love about him, you know, as a friend. I've never said this his face. But, you know, he's he's a real guy. Like, you know, he's never turned around us to us and never said, oh, I'm this big shot now. Or that ego, you know, that's never played, and he's never been embarrassed of us.

他是个实在人。至少50%保持着这种意识，或者说最初是这样的。因为当你进入像单向乐队这种巅峰状态的疯狂环境时，周围人会突然觉得你们原本亲密无间的关系变得疏远。我说的不是日常聊天，而是那些我们能共鸣的事，比如我可能遇到的问题，原本会和他们倾诉的。这种隔阂感很让人孤独。

You know, he's he's a real guy. He's at least 50% conscious that, or at least it started out as that idea. Because I think when you enter a crazy situation and and One Direction being, like, the pinnacle of that idea, there's people around you that all of a sudden feel that that used to feel really, really similar, and all of a sudden, they feel really different. I'm not talking about day to day conversation, but I'm talking about stuff that we can relate to, problems that I might have had, that I might, you know, talk to them about. And I think that's quite an alienating feeling.

所以我从不妥协，始终在抵抗这种变化。这对我非常重要。听到别人这样评价我时，确实让我很自豪——因为这个行业里确实有种能轻易吞噬你的生活方式。而被吞噬后的模样，光是想象就让我反感。你需要身边有人敢直说'你真是个混蛋'，在这行里这点至关重要。

So instead of instead of kind of just submitting, I've always, always resisted that. It's been really important to me. And those kind of things, you know, hearing that and hearing other people say that about me, that that does make me really proud because there's definitely, you know, there's definitely a lifestyle that can kind of sweep you away. But I think the other side of that and getting swept away, I don't really like the idea of what that might look like. And I think you need people around you that are gonna tell you if you're being a dick, like, vitally important in this job, definitely.

当你像许多成功人士那样，只被成功包围时，会滋生出一种扭曲的认知逻辑。能得到唐卡斯特老乡们的尊重，这对我意义重大。所以我绝不会开着法拉利之类的豪车在唐卡斯特街头招摇过市。

And those things, I think I think when you're surrounded, you know, like a lot of successful people are, when you're surrounded only by success, it it it it breeds a funny kind of narrative. To be respected from people in Doncaster like that, that means a lot to me, Definitely. So that's why another reason why, you know, I wouldn't drive through the streets of Doncaster in a fucking Ferrari or whatever.

你是在唐卡斯特的Hayfields学校读的书？

And you went to school in Doncaster, Hayfields?

对，Hayfields是我待得最久的学校。后来A-level考试没过，又去了别处读了一年。

Yeah. Hayfields where I did most of my time, and then I failed my a levels, and I went somewhere else for a year.

你A-level没及格？

You failed your a levels?

我A-level考试没通过。是的。那是我第一次，真的是第一次被妈妈狠狠训斥了一顿。一顿非常、非常严厉的责骂。因为她平时真的很公正，但在学业上她有些严格。

I failed my a levels. Yes. That was the first time I'd ever, ever got a real bollocking off my mom. A real, real dressing down. Because she was really, really fair, but there was something that she was kinda strict on with schoolwork.

我记得上车后，她说，你把自己的人生搞砸了。而她从不骂人。她从不骂人的。回忆起来我现在还起鸡皮疙瘩。当时我就想，或许我该为自己的人生做点什么了。

And I remember getting in the car, and she said, you fucked your life up. And she never swore. She never swore. And I remember I got goosebumps thinking about it there. I remember thinking, maybe I need to do something with my life.

在15岁，15、16岁的时候，你加入了一个戏剧社团。其实你来之前我刚好在看资料。17岁时你获得了《油脂》的主角。基础打好了，最终18岁时你决定去参加选秀？

At at 15 years old, 15, 16 years old, you joined a drama group. And I was watching actually just before you arrived. At 17 years old, you got the lead role in Grease. The foundations were set, you ultimately, at 18 years old, decide to go and audition?

对。那是我第三次参加《X音素》海选，之前每年都去。所以第一次参赛时我应该是16岁。要经过三轮制作人面试，最后才能见到西蒙。懂吧？

Yeah. That was the third time I auditioned for The X Factor, so every year previous to that. So that would have made me 16 when I first auditioned. There's, like, three producer auditions, and then you get to see Simon. You know?

最关键的就是最后那轮。第一年，我连初选都没过。第二年，我通过了第一轮。最后这次，我对自己说，再试这最后一次。毕竟在那个年纪——

It's the it's the main one. And the first year first year, I didn't get through any of them. The second year, I got through the first round. And then for a final time, I said to myself, well, I'm gonna give this one more shot. Because that was another thing at that age.

说自己有韧性是一回事，我确实觉得自己有。但在那个年纪保持韧性也确实容易得多，真的。

It's it's it's one thing saying you're resilient, and I like I do think I am. But it's lot easier to be resilient at that age as well, definitely.

真的很让人惊讶，有人参加《X音素》落选后，居然能再去。第二次又没成功，还能第三次去，自尊和信心都没被打击到让他们放弃。因为每次回家都得告诉亲友，自己又失败了。

It's really surprising that someone would go to X Factor once, be rejected, essentially. Go again, not not make it, and then go again without having their self esteem or their confidence knocked to the point where they go, I'm not gonna go through that again. Because every time you gotta come home, you gotta tell your friends and family, it didn't work out.

是啊。第一年的经历，我记得简直令人崩溃。那时候我还没真正经历过那种被拒绝的感觉。第二次去的时候更具挑战性，因为我是和当时学校里可以说是最受欢迎的女生一起去的。

Yeah. Well, the first year, can remember it being utterly crushing. Like, I'd not really had real rejection at that point. I hadn't really experienced that kind of thing. The second time I went was even more challenging because I went with what I'll describe as, like, the hottest girl at school at the time.

对吧？她也是个歌手。我们几个月前聊过，发现她也想参加《X音素》的海选。我就想，那不如一起去，觉得这可能是个聪明的小策略。

Right? So she's also a singer. We got talking, like, months ago. Turns out she wants to audition for The X Factor as well. I'm like, well, let's go together, thinking this could be, like, a smart little play.

她比我先上场，当时我还在排队，她给我看她拿到了晋级下一轮的金色通行证。而我却落选了。因为我是和她同行，我们被带进一个大约200人的房间，里面每个人都获得了晋级资格。我记得那种感觉真的非常非常难受，周围全是怀揣梦想的人。

She goes before me, and I think at this point, I feel like I was still in the queue, and she showed me that she got through to the next round. It was like a gold ticket. I then didn't get through, and then we got because I was with her and I was traveling with her, we then got ushered into a room of, say, 200 people, and every single person in the room had a yes. I remember that being really, really challenging. I'm just you're just surrounded by people that are dreaming.

懂吗？他们都对下一阶段充满期待，这种氛围反而点燃了我的斗志。我当时就想：明年要怎么才能站到胜利者的队伍里？怎么才能成为他们中的一员？

You know? They're really, really excited about what does the next stage look like, and that created a bit more fire, I think. It was like, okay. How do I get on the right side of this next year? How do I how do I be in this group of people next year?

你妈妈对你第三年参赛有影响吗？

Did your mom play a role in you going for that third year?

具体记不清了，但要说我当时有任何犹豫的话，她绝对是百分百支持我的。就像你刚才提到我在学校参演的那部音乐剧，我本来不想去试镜，是她硬把我拽上车送过去的。后来我特别感激她这么做。她总是把握得很好——你知道有些家长太咄咄逼人反而不好，但她从来不会那样。

I can't remember specifically, but I I would say if I would have had any level of doubt, 100%. The musical that you just referenced that I did at school, I didn't wanna go to that audition, and she literally picked me up and drove me there. And I was so thankful that she did. She was often very, very good at, you know, pushy parents are are are that's not good. She was never like that.

她总能掌握恰到好处的力度。孩子有时候确实需要这种推动，其实成年人也是。当你对某件事犹豫不决时，只要有人说'去吧，你能行的'，情况就不一样了。所以我觉得这绝对起了很大作用。就算我当时说不去参加海选，一整年里她也会给我找出一百个该去的理由。

She always had the the right amount of force, you know? Mhmm. Because sometimes you need that as a kid, and especially actually, even as adults, you know, in a situation where you're second guessing something, as soon as someone goes, go on, you can do it, You're okay. So I think that definitely played a big role in that. Even if I suggested that I wasn't gonna go to this audition, throughout the year, she would have been giving me a 100 different reasons to go.

现在，不是字面意思，但从自信的角度来看，她与我交谈的方式，总是把我捧得高高的。她让我觉得自己无所不能，真的。我想这在这种第三次尝试的情况下很有帮助，因为我妈妈说我行，那或许我真的可以。

Now, not literally, but just from a confidence point of view, the way that she was talking to me, how she always just put me on this amazing pedestal. She made me feel like I could do anything, definitely. And I think that that helps in those kind of situations, going for it for a third time because my mom's saying I can do it, so maybe I can.

所以你参加了那次试镜，唱了《Make You Feel My Love》。

So you you do the audition where you sang make make you feel my love.

那是训练营阶段。那是试镜的第二部分。我第一次试镜唱的是《Hey There, Delilah》。那首歌对我毫无帮助，音效上也是。当然，现在我能这么说是因为有了更多经验，但作为一个年轻人，根本不会考虑这些。

That was boot camp. So that was the second part of the audition. My first audition was a song called Hey There, Delilah. Did nothing for me, like, sonically. Like, obviously, now I can say this because I've got a bit more experience, but as a young lad, you're not thinking about any of these things.

就是单纯喜欢那首歌，就唱了。结果很糟，真的非常糟糕。到现在回想起来，听或看那次试镜录像都让我极度不适。

It was just, I like that song. I'll sing that song. It was bad. It was really, really bad. And to the point where, like, it still makes me deeply uncomfortable, like, listening to or watching that audition.

我之前只在学校《油脂》音乐剧里表演过，两晚观众加起来大概250人，那感觉已经人山人海了。转眼就在曼彻斯特MEN体育馆的电视直播试镜，台下坐着3000人。对任何人来说，3000观众的演出都是大型场次，绝对的。能卖出3000张票就已经非常非常成功了。所以这简直就是被直接扔进深水区。

The only thing I done like this is the school production of of Grease, and that was to about 250 people over two nights, and that felt like a fucking mountain of people. Cut to then your live TV audition at the MEN in Manchester, and there's 3,000 people in the audience. 3,000 people is a big gig for anyone to play, like, full stop. Like, if you do 3,000 tickets, you're doing really, really well. So, like, it was that's the definition of being thrown at the deep end.

我觉得这就是他们想要的效果，但并不是所有人都能因此发挥最佳水平。有些人可以，但我只记得自己当时像只被车灯照傻的鹿，抖得厉害，感觉极其极其不自在。我只想找个地缝钻进去。作为平时挺自信的年轻人，我很少那样脱离舒适区，那一刻真的完全懵了。

And I think that's part of what they want, but it's not it's not gonna yield the best results from everyone. Some people it is, but I just remember feeling like a fucking dick in the headlights, like really, really shaky, like really, really just felt really, really uncomfortable. I was just I just wanted the ground to swallow me up. I'd never been in a situation where I was quite a confident young lad, so it wasn't very often I'd even been out of my comfort zone like that. And I just felt felt like a deer in the headlights, definitely.

我猜他们可能早就有了组建乐队的想法，比实际...

Am I right in thinking that they probably had the idea to construct a band much sooner than

他们肯定已经做过了。你知道做了什么。了解西蒙的为人，我过去应该和他有过这些对话，但现在记不清了。不过以我对西蒙的了解，是的，我想你知道他是什么样的人。对吧？

They must have done. You know what done. Knowing knowing Simon I will have had these conversations with him in the past, but can't remember now. But knowing Simon, yeah, I think you know what he's like. Right?

他至少提前一年就在心里盘算这件事了。

He will have had that in his mind for at least for the year before.

他也喜欢男孩乐队。他可是有前科的。

He loves a boy band as well. He's got a track record.

是啊是啊。他们给他赚了不少钱。

Yeah. Yeah. They make him a lot of money.

所以你们作为一个临时组建的乐队在X音素拿了第三名，19岁就签约了西蒙·考威尔的Psycho音乐公司。想想你19岁签约时，再想想之前五六年发生的事，简直疯狂。

And so you come third on the x factor as a as a band when you're put together, and then you signed at 19 years old to Simon Cowell's Psycho Music. And it's crazy because when I think about you signing at 19 years old and I think about what happened in the preceding five or six years, I mean, it is crazy.

这是个错误。直到现在脱离单向乐队后，我才稍微理解当时发生了什么，甚至意识到那种疯狂——因为在事情发生前谁都缺乏认知。我们确实感觉一切顺利，但最初那一年，我们潜意识里会觉得这就是成功的模样。懂吗？

It's a mistake. It's only now outside of being in One Direction that I actually have a little bit of a concept of what happened and even, you know, the the craziness of it because nobody has any context to it before it happens. So we we definitely we felt like things were going really, really well. But we also there would have been part of us, especially in that first year, of just assuming this is what, you know, success looks like. You know?

成功艺人就该这样。我记忆里第一个明确意识到这可能超出常规的时刻，是我们被安排给一个叫《大时代》的迪士尼乐队做巡演暖场。演出前，那位一年只露面五六次的高层经理——通常只在拉斯维加斯、洛杉矶这些顶级场合出现——把我们召集起来谈话。

A successful artist does these things. And the first moment that I remember distinctly, actually, that that I realized that maybe this was bigger than, like, let's say, like, the average thing at the time, we got booked on a support gig with a, like, a Disney band called Big Time Rush. And before that tour show, our manager, our, like, senior manager, the kind of guy you only see, you know, like, six gigs a year, and it just happens to be Vegas and LA and all the best places in the world. You know? And he sat us down.

那就像是一种训诫。就像是在说，听着。这就是你在这种演出中需要预期的。预期人们只会知道那些热门单曲，即使他们知道单曲，你知道，那已经是很大的成功了。他们不会知道专辑曲目的歌词。

It was like this dressing down. It was like, look. This is what you need to expect from a gig like this. Expect people to only know the the singles, and even if they know the singles, you know, like, that's that's a real win. They're not gonna know the the words to the album tracks.

这将是一场与你预期非常、非常不同的演出。所以我们当时都准备全力以赴，那时我们还没真正经历过那种情况。我们做过的多数事情都让我们感到非常自信。所以，我们某种程度上是带着这种底气上台的。然后我记得当我们走上舞台时，我想我们开场演了一首非主打歌，但观众完全沉浸其中，非常投入。

They it's gonna be a very, very different show to what you expected. So we're all ready to go out fighting, we'd not really had that at that point. We'd had most things that we'd done, we felt really confident doing. So, like, we we we were kind of going on the back four. And then I can remember when we walked out on stage, and I think we opened with something that wasn't a single, and people were just locked in, like massively locked in.

现场真的非常、非常吵闹。我记得那一刻，我年轻时就有这种特质。我特别兴奋地想告诉理查德——我们当时的经纪人——演出结束后实际的情况有多棒。你看到了吗？因为显然事情并没有按他预料的那样发展。

And it was really, really fucking loud in there. And I think that was a moment where I remember, again, I had this kind of side to me when I was younger. I was so excited to tell Richard, who was our manager at the time, I was so excited to tell him post gig about how it actually went. Did you see it then? Because that was obviously not how it played out.

我记得当时对此感到相当自鸣得意，但那天晚上躺到床上后，我开始想，我不知道。那时我算不上是个深刻的思想者，但偶尔也会深入思考。我看着这位音乐经纪人，心想这家伙经验丰富至极。他经历过无数次类似的情况。如果他预测错了，也许确实如此，那我就在想，或许我们正在见证某些变化的发生。

And I remember feeling pretty smug about that, but I think one it was once I kinda got to bed that evening, I was kinda thinking I don't know. I wasn't overly deep thinker at that point, but I was still thinking occasionally on a deep level. And I'm looking at this music manager, I'm thinking, like, this guy's, like, uber experienced. Like, he's been in this situation countless times. So if he was to predict it wrong, like, maybe he did, I'm like, well, maybe we maybe something is happening.

你在那种情况下如何照顾自己？因为做这个播客让我学到很多关于大脑的知识，关于多巴胺、睡眠、昼夜节律等等。我想把这些放到你当时的生活背景中理解——神经科学家告诉我，男性大脑在那个年龄仍在发育成长，而你却承受着巨大的外部压力，每晚都在冲击它。

How do you take care of yourself amongst that? Because, you know, one of the things I've learned from doing this podcast is I've learned so much about the brain. I've learned so much about dopamine and and and sleep and circadian rhythms and all these all these things. And so I I wanna fit that into the context of what your life was like at an age where these neuroscientists tell me that the male brain is still growing, it's still forming itself, you're putting this tremendous external pressure on it. You're, like, shocking it every night.

我记得采访你前队友利亚姆时，他说记得在迪拜那场演出，面对大约10万人，结束后直接被塞进出租车送回酒店锁起来。他对我描述那种生活就是：舞台、汽车、酒店、禁闭。舞台、汽车、酒店、禁闭。

I remember when I interviewed Liam, your former bandmate, him telling me that he would, like, walk he remembers walking out on stage, I think it was Dubai. There's, like, a 100,000 people there, and then thrown in you probably remember the gig, like, thrown into the the taxi, taken back to the hotel room, and locked in there. And he was like I remember him saying to me, it was stage, car, hotel, locked. Stage, car, hotel, locked.

操。我和利亚姆处理方式很不同。这可能也是我早期就和赞恩相处得好的原因——我们都不太守规矩。不是那种彻底叛逆的方式，只是有自己的想法。至少这缓解了些压力，因为我知道如果真想做什么，我真的就会直接去做。

Fuck. I would say the the way that that we both handled it, me and Liam, was quite different. I think I that's often why I I kind of I had a good relationship with Zane from early on because neither of us are kind of rule abiding. And not in a way that's, like, utterly disruptive. It's just we have our own ideas, you know, and that at least alleviated a little bit of the pressure, knowing that deep down, if I wanted to just go and do something, I would I would genuinely just go and do it.

而我认为利亚姆和其他男孩在某种程度上，确实存在一丝恐惧的成分，我想。而且利亚姆从14岁起就非常努力地奋斗才走到那一步。利亚姆的旅程与我的截然不同。我感觉自己就像个撞大运中了彩票的乐天派，懂吗？而利亚姆则非常严谨、目标明确，他的成就全凭努力得来。所以我觉得我们的出发点也略有不同。

Whereas I think Liam and the other boys actually, to a degree, there was there was an element of a little bit of fear, I think, you know, and and also Liam had, you know, worked so hard from the age of 14 to get there. Liam's journey was a lot different to mine. My I just felt like a happy go lucky guy who won the lottery, you know? Like, whereas Liam was very, very precise and deliberate, and he got there for all his hard work. So I think we also came from a slightly different point of view.

那段时期我拥有的另一个优势——至今依然如此——就是我不沉溺于过去。虽然我确实是个过度思考者，但不会说自己是个纠结往事的人。虽然我不常用这个说法形容自己，但那段时期确实存在着某种'无知即福'的成分。

Another benefit that I I had during that time and I still have is I'm not a dweller. Like, I I'm I'm an overthinker, for sure, but I wouldn't say, like, I'm a dweller. So I wouldn't use this phrase for me very often, but, like, there would there's definitely an element of ignorance is placed during that whole time.

你说自己具备反抗体制的魄力或个性，这让我觉得非常有意思。因为当我采访你们的前摄影师和摄像师时，他说你确实是团体里那个敢于对抗唱片公司的人。嗯，没错。

I find it so fascinating that you talk about this this idea of you being having the the minerals or the personality where you would push back against the system a little bit. Because when I spoke to your former cameraman and videographer Yeah. He said that you you were the one in the group that stood up against the the the label. Mhmm. Yeah.

所以你会转身对唱片公司说'我们需要休息一天'。这再次引发我的思考——做这档播客让我学到'习得性无助'与控制权、自主权的概念。简而言之，研究表明：拥有掌控感的人生理健康更佳，压力水平更低。

So you'd be the one to turn around to the record label and say, we need a day off. Mhmm. And it's interesting again because I I was one of the things I learned from doing this podcast is this idea of, like, learned helplessness and control and autonomy. Basically, TLDR is it says that people who feel like they have control have much better physiological health outcomes. They have less stress.

他们心理状态更稳定，焦虑抑郁更少，因为他们感觉自己能掌控局面。我在写上一本书时读到个惊人实验：当老鼠意识到自己对处境无能为力时，它们会放弃挣扎，变得逆来顺受。联想到人类境况——根据摄像师Cam的描述，年轻的你显然不是这类人，你分明会与西蒙·考威尔的唱片公司据理力争。

They're more insulated, better psychological states, less anxiety, less depression because they feel like they're in a controlled situation. So there's this crazy study that I was reading about from was writing my last book about these these rats where they they learn that they can't do anything about the situation, and they basically give up, and they become submissive, and they stop trying. And that and I think about this in the context of humans as well. You're you're from what your your videographer told me, Cam, you were clearly not that. You were clearly someone that would push against Simon Cowell's record label as a young man.

是的。我和朋友们就此讨论过几次，但不确定这种勇气的来源。要知道在当时流行乐坛，直面行业最成功的巨头说'你错了'需要多大勇气——一个毫无经验的18岁少年竟敢指正对方。我想信心的来源在于：即便不是集体发声，仅由我传达的诉求，背后永远承载着集体意志。

Yeah. And that's something I've had a few conversations with my friends, similar things about this, and I'm not certain why that was, like, inspired by because it's it's brave, right, to to stare someone who at the time, at least in pop, was one of the most successful people in the music industry and say, no. You've got it wrong. Here's me, an 18 year old with no experience telling you, you've got it wrong. I I think what gave me confidence in those ideas is even if it wasn't a collective voice, even if it was just my voice delivering the message, it was always with collective intention.

那些决定永远是为了全体利益。如今独自做决定时，我才明白这并不简单——牵涉太多复杂因素。但某种程度上，这又回归到'大哥'的角色：作为乐队最年长者，这大概本就是我的职责所在。

It would always be for the good of all of us. Making those decisions now on my own, I'll know they're not quite as easy. There's there's a lot of different kind of things at play, but where and again, it kinda comes from that big brother kind of role again. I was the oldest in the band. It was kind of my role in the band, I think, to to to kinda to do that.

我意识到，毫无疑问，我是乐队里最有主见的一个，所以我想把这一点用在正途上，而不是只在推特上随便吐槽别人。关于单向乐队还有一点很重要，这并不是对Ed的不尊重。我很感激自己曾在一个男孩乐队里，这点我很清楚。对吧？

And I realized that by far, I was the most opinionated in the band definitely, so I think I wanted to use that for good and not just chatting shit about someone on Twitter or something. Another important distinction about One Direction is this is not, like, disrespectful to Ed. Like, I appreciate I was in a boy band. I know that. Right?

但如果要说哪种音乐类型可能最俗气，那大概就是男孩乐队了——你可以把它算作一种流派。所以18岁加入单向乐队时，作为一个在英格兰北部长大的孩子，音乐品味上其实有点势利眼，懂吗？人们觉得有‘真正的音乐’，然后就是男孩乐队。带着这种心态入行，反而让我更容易去挑战那些老派观念，因为那些正是我不喜欢这类乐队的原因——他们都长得一样，感觉像是公关包装出来的产物。明白吗？

But, like, if there would be, like, one genre of music that I would think might be the most naff, it's it's boy band, you could call that a genre. So going into at this point, going into One Direction when I was 18, you know, growing up in the North Of England, it's like it's like real it's kinda like snobby musically, you know? There's like there's like real music, and then there's boy bands, you know? So having that kind of feeling going into it, it was that that was why it was easy to kind of push against some of these old school ideas, because they were the ideas that I didn't the reasons I didn't like these bands is because they all looked the same and because they all felt very kind of PR pressed. You know?

对我来说，观察单向乐队并思考‘怎样才能让它更酷些’一直是个特别有趣的项目。我记得真正的转折点是首支单曲《What Makes You Beautiful》开启预购时。具体数字记不清了，但我们打破了某项预售记录，当时连歌都还没发布。这让我觉得太神奇了——他们甚至还没听过这首歌，就已经愿意买单了。

Was always a really interesting project for me to try and to to look at One Direction and think, well, how how could we make this a little cooler? I remember the the the the real turning point in One Direction was when we put up the preorder for our first single, What Makes You Beautiful. I can't remember the number of how much we sold that week, but we broke some record, right, at the preorder, and we got told this. We'd not released any music at this point. And I remember thinking that's fascinating because they don't know what it's gonna sound like yet, but they're invested.

那种早期就感受到的力量，让我觉得我们可以重写规则——因为人们投入的是对我们这个团体本身，甚至可能超过了对音乐的关注。这么说应该没错。

That felt like power early on, and it also felt like that we could rewrite the rule book because people were invested in us as much, if not more than the music. I think that's fair to say.

在单向乐队的发展历程中，是否有某个瞬间让你意识到：由于这种成功，你失去了某些曾经热爱的生活元素？

Was there a part in the the evolution in the journey of One Direction where you had that moment where you go, there's elements of my life that I love that I no longer have access to because of this success?

我觉得这个过程其实更渐进些。你知道的，你会逐渐丧失部分个人独立性。再加上当时的年龄因素——对吧？

I would say that it's more gradual than that, really. You know? You you start to you start to lose some of your own independence to a degree. And then I think also the age I was. Right?

比如我刚加入乐队时才18岁。我常说，参加《X音素》选秀前的那一年，至少在那十八年里，是我人生最棒的时光。那时候你拥有自由，我过得如鱼得水，可以随时出门。

So, like, I was 18 when I first joined the band. And I always say this, that year of my life before I auditioned for The X Factor, at least up to those eighteen years, was the best year of my life. You know, you've got independence at that point. I was thriving. You could go out.

就像，那真是社交上令人着迷的经历。总有事情可做。所以离开那种生活实际上让人非常失落。起初我花了一些时间才适应。现在每当我和单向乐队一起活动时，我总是感到无比感激和兴奋。

Like, it was just it was it was so fascinating socially. There's always something to do. So to leave that behind was quite gutting, actually. And that took me a second to get used to it first. Now I always felt incredibly grateful and really excited every time I was doing something with One Direction.

但任何反思的时刻，都会让我非常、非常想家。比如我和泽恩年轻时，我们有过无数次对话，你知道的，我们是不是该放弃？是不是该到此为止？

But any kind of time for reflection, was really, really missing home. Like, me and Zayn would when we were younger, we had countless conversations of, you know, should we just pack it in? Should we just call it a day?

为什么？

Why?

因为你感到格格不入。你过着这种生活方式，而且有无数个理由。对吧？但成名这件事真的很困难，对我来说主要是关于被疏远的感觉。我的生活经历突然变得和某些朋友毫不相关了。

Because you feel alienated. You've got you you you are living this lifestyle that and there's a million different reasons. Right? But, like, the fame thing's really difficult, and mostly for me, was about being alienated. And I can't like, any of my life experience was now not so relevant to some of my friends.

你知道吗？我觉得这也是——我认为这是在工人阶级小镇成长的一部分——但我对成功和赚到的钱有种愧疚感。我觉得这也是同一回事。我想这是两件不同的事。成名这件事，我永远无法适应。

You know? And I think that also I have this I think this is part of growing up in a working class working class town, but I have this, like, guilt for the success and money that that that I've earned as well. And I think that also is kind of part of the same thing. I think I think for it's kinda like two different things. The fame thing, I'll never I'll never be okay with.

就像，当然每个艺术家都这么说，但如果我只做音乐，那就太棒了。那真的太棒了。我想我可以在较低层面上做到，但就不会有现在的兴奋感了。几乎...是的。几乎其他所有随之而来的东西。

Like, if I like, of of course, every artist says this, but if I could just do the music, you know, that would be amazing. That would be amazing. I suppose I could on a on a lower level, but I wouldn't get the same rush that I do. Think I it's almost yeah. It's it's almost everything else that that comes with that.

当有人说感到孤立时很有趣，我从很多取得巨大公众成功、拥有大量粉丝的人那里听过这种说法。因为我们通常认为孤立是不与人接触。但根据你的描述，这种孤立更像是关于人际联系和共鸣的问题。

It's interesting when someone says they they felt isolated, which is something I've had a lot from people who've had great public success where they've got a big fan base. Because we think of, like, isolation as not being around people. But I guess isolation in the context you described is more about connecting to people, relatability.

是啊。但这就像那个比喻，日本那个非常著名的十字路口，如果你用无人机拍摄并拉远镜头，你就会变成噪音中的一个小点，有时候就是这种感觉。因为这也不是真实的世界，你懂吗？

Yeah. But it's also like like the metaphor would be, like, what's that really famous crossing in Japan? If you took a drone shot and you pulled right out from that and you would just become a little dot amongst the noise, sometimes that's kind of how it feels. Because also, it's not the it's not the real world. You know?

甚至连人们对你的看法，也不是真实的世界。单向组合第一次获得重大收入是来自商品交易，我们一直很擅长做周边商品。

The the the even in the way that people perceive you, is not the real world. The first moment that One Direction got or the first big pay packet was merchandise deal that we got, and we always did really good merch.

你那时多大？

How old were you?

19岁。那是我第一次感到非常非常兴奋的时刻。所以我立刻给我妈妈打电话，像往常一样告诉她这件事，她为我感到非常高兴。显然，她只是感到骄傲，仅此而已。

19. That was the first kind of moment where I I I felt really, really excited. And so I rang my mom straight away, you know, told her about it like I always would, and she was really excited for me. And obviously, you know, this she's just proud. That's it.

然后我记得那种感觉，但现在我还能告诉谁呢？比如，我要打电话给尼扎姆告诉他吗？他可能会感兴趣，也会为我感到骄傲。但记住，他刚在《X音素》上看到我，这是我对人们的另一个认识——他们认为如果你成功了，那么一切都顺理成章。所以我想，如果我打了电话——实际上我没打。

And then I remembered the feeling of, but who else do I tell now? Because, like, do I call up Nizam and tell him? Well, he'll he'll he'll be into that, and he'll be really proud of me. But bear in mind, he's just seen me on the x factor, and this is another thing I realize about people is they think if you're successful, then everything is just, you know, successful, and that's how it goes. So I think, you know, if I call if I did it, I didn't call Nizam.

但如果我打了，他可能会表现得很友善，但在心里，他会不会耸耸肩想，嗯，显然你一切顺利。所以我认为那里确实缺乏理解，这很正常。还有一种内疚感，尤其是在那个年纪。生活在那时真的很贵，人们深陷学生贷款中。

But if I had called him, he probably would have been really nice, but in his head, would he shrugged his shoulders like, well, obviously, you know, things are going really well for you. So I think there's definitely a lack of, like, understanding there, rightly so. There's also a guilt, you know, especially at that age. People like, life's really, really expensive at that age. People are, like, up to their eyes in student loans.

直到大约两年前，我才把家里墙上的所有牌匾和奖项挂起来，比如以前乐队时期获得的英国音乐奖之类。它们现在在我客厅里仍然让我感到不适。因为，比如我在和人交谈时，我真的不想——我不想那样，我只想做我自己。我不想成为那个赢得那些奖项的人。我们可以那样交流，但说实话，如果尼扎姆来我家聊天喝咖啡，我讨厌谈话最终会围绕我或我的成功展开。

It was only about two years ago that I put all the plaques up on my wall at home and my awards, like the Brit Awards and stuff that I got in the past from the band. They still annoy me even now in my lounge. Because, like, if I'm in a having a conversation with someone, I don't even really want like, I don't I wanna just be me. I don't wanna be that guy that won those awards. Like, we can be and we can conversate like that, but truthfully, like, someone if Nizam came came over to my house for, a chat and a coffee, I would hate that the conversation might end up then gravitating to me or my success.

这更多关乎于现实世界中那些关系和对话的真实模样。我渴望的就是那种真实的常态。我只想在每次对话中都能与他人平等交流。我认为最难应对的就是‘常态’这个词在方方面面的缺失。

It's much more about just what those relationships and conversations look like in the real world. That's what I'm craving It's that real normality. All I want is to just be on an even playing field with everyone in any kind of conversation. I think that was the toughest thing to deal with is just the the lack of normality in every sense of the word.

酒精在这其中扮演什么角色？因为你过着一种疯狂的生活，多巴胺和大脑不断经受各种考验。我记得利亚姆曾告诉我，这正是他开始酗酒的时候

How does things like alcohol play into this? Because you're you're living a crazy, crazy life where your dopamine and your your brain is being tested in all different ways. I remember Liam saying to me this is really when he started to have a problem with alcohol

嗯。

Mhmm.

在乐队早期，他——我永远忘不了——他和我谈论房间里的迷你酒吧。嗯。我没想到的是：你刚在十万观众面前演出完，转眼就回到有迷你酒吧的酒店房间。嗯。

In the early years of the band, and he I'll never forget it. He him talking to me about the minibar in the room. Mhmm. Like, one of the things I didn't realize is, okay, you've just been out on stage in front of a 100,000 people, then you're back in a hotel room with a minibar. Mhmm.

我能感受到酒精的诱惑，在乐队期间确实没少喝。但演出后有个重要区别：我会抽大麻。回到巡演巴士后，我和泽恩一起抽——希望他不介意我这么说，估计不会。

I feel the pull from alcohol, and I definitely drank quite a bit when I was when I was in the band. But I think an important distinction post show would be I'd I'd smoke my weed. I'd go back to my tour bus, and I'd go and smoke me weed, and Zane would would smoke with me too. I hope he doesn't mind me saying that. I'm sure he won't.

那种感觉很棒。其实人们做事的动机各不相同，这是我的选择。当时这种方式适合我的大脑状态——演出后脑袋里充斥着各种喧嚣，有时你需要让这些噪音安静下来。

And that was great. And, actually, like, you know, people do things for different reasons, and that was my advice. That was my choice. Now the reason why that kind of suited my brain at that time was I've just had all this noise in my head. I've just had this crazy experience on stage, and that's the noise that you kinda need to quiet down sometimes.

我们的流程是：回到巡演巴士，玩《使命召唤》僵尸模式，抽大麻。这就是我们全部的思绪和活动。接着就会陷入老套的‘瘾君子式’深度对话，比如UFO之类的话题。

So what we would do is we'd get back on the tour bus. We'd play Call of Duty zombies. We'd smoke our weed. And, like, that's all we'd think about, and that's all we'd do. And then we'd get into cliche stoner chats of deep conversation, probably UFOs, you know, all that kind of shit.

尽管这看起来和感觉起来可能有些愚蠢，但它再次成为了我们的常态。这是在巡演中创造的常态，也是我们家乡朋友们所做事情的一个版本。但同样，这只是...这真是一种非常美好的方式，让我们能从那些疯狂的时刻中抽离出来，进行某种形式的复盘。你只是置身于这种非常平静、美好的环境中。

And as as as daft as that might look and feel, it it again, it's our normality. It's creating the normality on tour. It's a version of what our friends were doing back home as well. But also, it just it it it was such a lovely way to kinda debrief from those moments, away from the manicness. You've just got this kinda really subdued, nice environment.

这种对比实际上感觉相当不错。

The juxtaposition actually felt quite nice.

如果你能回到与Psycho签约的那一天，33岁的路易会给18、19岁的路易什么建议？

If you could go back to the day that you signed the contract with Psycho, what is the advice that 33 year old Louis would give 18, 19 year old Louis?

这真是个非常、非常大的问题。我...我想我会说，在早年要更加自信，因为随着年龄增长，我越发意识到大多数人在刚开始做某件事时，在某种程度上都是在假装懂行。很长一段时间里，我都在想，你知道，我小时候从没想过自己会成为一名歌手，所以一直在追赶别人。听着，还有件事我也很坦然：我不是世界上最好的歌手。

Such a that is a really, really big question. I I I think I would just I I think I would say to be be be confident in the earlier years, because the older I get, the more I realize most people in their earlier years of doing said thing are, to a degree, faking it. And I think for a long time, I was just thinking, well, you know, I didn't spend my life as a young lad thinking I was gonna be a singer, so I'm playing catch up and all of those things. And listen, also, there's another thing I'm more than comfortable enough to say. I'm not the best singer in the world.

我对此很坦然，对吧？但确实有那么一段时间，这些事对年轻的我来说很有挑战性。我想我会告诉年轻的自己别太苛责自己，因为正是我的叛逆和决策让我走到了今天，这应该给我信心。所以作为一个年轻人，我当时真的就像被车灯照到的鹿一样茫然，完全不明白发生了什么。

I'm okay with that. Right? But, like, there was definitely a time where those things were challenging as a young lad. And I think I would just cut myself a bit of slack as a young lad because it's been a lot of my defiance and decision making that's got me to where I've got, and that should give me confidence. So I think as a young lad, you I I did really just felt like a deer in the headlights, and I couldn't didn't really have any kind of context what was going on.

当我说这些时，我指的不是拒绝迪士尼演出这种事——因为我觉得那对单向组合形象不好。我指的是更内在的、关于个人在乐队中的价值这类问题。年轻时的我在这方面真的非常、非常挣扎。所以我会说，我应该给自己更多肯定。

And I think when I'm talking about these things, I'm not talking about no. We're not gonna do this Disney performance because I don't think it looks good on the for One Direction. I'm talking about more, like, introspective personal worth within the band, all those kind of things. I really, really struggled with that as a young lad, big time. So I would I would say I would give myself a bit more credit there.

你当时真的那么挣扎吗？

You really struggled with that?

我觉得真的很难。就像我之前说的，我就像中了彩票的孩子。我第一次参加《X音素》试唱时，觉得自己表现不佳，得到三个'通过'时非常惊讶。

I found it I found it really tough. So, like like, I said before, like, I was the kid who'd won the lottery. Like, I I sang my first audition for the x factor. Didn't feel like I did a good job. Was really surprised that I got the three yeses.

那大约是首轮试镜播出的四个月前。当时我已经告诉所有人：我在乐队里，参加了《X音素》。但其实我和Niall的试镜画面都没被播出——讽刺的是我们组了乐队，却没人知道我们是谁。

Now that was maybe four months before the first audition's air. So I've told everyone at this point, obviously. I'm in a band. I'm on the X Factor, and I have told anyone that will listen, like, And, actually, me and neither me nor Niall got any TV time on our on our audition. So the irony is we get put in this band, but people have no idea who we are.

观众根本没有背景信息来关注我们。从那一刻起，我就感觉自己像个临时替补。记得当时拍评委之家环节时（赛制流程：海选→训练营→评委之家→直播秀），整个场景特别俗套，充满典型选秀节目的做作感。

Like, there's context for the viewers to actually see this and and actually really care. I felt like I was playing catcher from that moment in. I remember this, like, really, like, real naffy, typical X Factor theme. We went filming for the judges' houses, which is the stage. You have the auditions, then boot camp, judges' houses, live shows, and we went filming for judges' houses.

那时我已经开始怀疑了。我几乎没单独唱过歌，全是和声部分。后来还被海胆蛰伤了。

And I was already questioning. I wasn't really singing at all. I had not had, like, any individual thing to sing. It was all like harmony stuff. And I got stung by a sea urchin.

很离谱对吧？我的脚肿得像大象腿。但节目组还是坚持拍摄——你知道《X音素》的套路——他们硬要渲染'没有Louis男孩们怎么表演'的悬念。

Right? Random story. My foot blew up like an elephant. And we had to film all this you know what X Factor's like. Right?

这种编排太糟糕了，因为根本站不住脚。我们明明可以直接表演。那时我负责低音和声，甚至怀疑混音后根本没人能听见我的声音。

We had to film all this Jeopardy, this, like, how will how will the boys audition without Louie? It was awful. It was awful because there was no credibility to that statement. The boys could have auditioned straight away. At that point, I was doing a lower harmony, and I doubt I I would be shocked if anyone could even hear me in the mix at that point.

这种处境很有挑战性。当我开始产生自我怀疑时，节目组又刻意制造戏剧冲突。记得当时想着：我明明想展现更多，却不知如何突破。参赛前我以为自己唱得很好，但在节目里完全找不到存在感。

So that was really challenging where, you know, I'm already starting to feel those things, and then you get something like that that's quite literal, and they're and they're trying to sell this Jeopardy. And I remember thinking, oh, like, I it just it really I wanted to do more. I just didn't know how to do that. Again, there's no context. I thought I was a good singer before I went to The X Factor.

后来我通过了试镜。他们让我通过了。我当时就想，好吧，那我应该还不错。结果他们没播那个电视试镜片段。

Then I get through the audition. They put me through. I'm like, okay. Well, I must be alright. Then they don't show the TV audition.

你就会想，哦，可能是性格原因吧，我也不知道。也许是我的声音问题。作为一个身处这种境遇的年轻人，确实有很多很多未解的疑问。

You're like, oh, maybe that's like a personality thing, or I don't know. Maybe it's my voice. There's a lot of there's there's there's a lot of especially as a young lad in this situation, there's a lot of unanswered questions.

你后来问过那些问题吗？

Did you ever ask those questions?

我有问过他为什么选我进乐队吗？没有。不过我很想问。我真的很想问。但你知道为什么我永远不会问他吗？

Did I ever ask him why I was in that band? No. I would love to, though. I would have loved to. But do you know why I wouldn't would never with him?

西蒙他可能会...他总是非常擅长让我在乐队里感到有价值。但就像你之前说的，我经常充当乐队和唱片公司之间的传声筒。他代表唱片公司。他把我拉到他那边，这招很高明对吧？史蒂文，他有个习惯就是总会叫我的名字。

Simon would probably he would he would Simon was always very brilliant at making me feel, like, worthy in the band. But but as you said before, like, I was often a a voice between the band and the label. He was the label. Well, he put me on side, and that's a smart move, ain't it? One thing he would always do, Steven, is he would always say my name.

当你是个19岁的小伙子，西蒙·考威尔对你说'路易斯，你知道这个创意妙在哪吗？'——你会瞬间充满力量。人们都喜欢被直呼其名。想象一下那是西蒙·考威尔，而你还只有19岁。那种魔力与权威感是难以抗拒的。

Now when you're a 19 year old lad and Simon Cowell says, do know what the thing is about that idea, Louis? You are empowered. Now we like people using our names. Now imagine that Simon Cowell and you're 19 years old. There is a spell that comes with that, and there's a power that comes with that.

我觉得...很长一段时间里，我确实沉迷于这类心理暗示。现在回想起来，西蒙确实是个有趣的人。他是个杰出的商人。我从他身上学到很多。至今我仍深深尊敬他，年轻时的我对他简直崇拜得五体投地。

And I think I think for a long time, I kind of I kind of fell for all those kind of ideas. Now I think Simon, again, is an interesting person. He is a brilliant businessman. Now I learned a lot from him. I I I still deeply respect him, and I was I was I was in awe of him as a young lad.

我只是...我那时很享受和他相处。我喜欢听他做决定之类的。而且我认为那时的他确实才华横溢。他把我捧得太高，让我误以为这种关系具有现实意义，而不仅仅是'谢谢亲爱的'那种肤浅的感觉。

I just I was I loved to be around him. I loved to listen to him make decisions and and all of that. And I thought he was he was definitely brilliant at that time. He just he built me up on a pedestal to the point where I thought that it would actually have a real world meaning, not just a thanks, darling kind of vibe.

你什么时候意识到并非如此？

When did you realize that it didn't?

当我独自加入Psycho的时候。

When I joined Psycho on my own.

所以这是在乐队解散之后...

So this is after the band you

签了合约...抱歉。乐队解散后，我没有唱片公司可选了。从来就不是那种情况。但即便有选择，假设桌上有十份条件相同的合约...

signed a set Sorry. So the band the band split up, and now I didn't have my pick of record labels. It was never like that. But even if I had, I could have had 10 offers on the table. Let's just assume they're all the same money.

我永远都会选择西蒙。因为就像北方人那样，忠诚对我们而言是极其重要的品质。在这些工人阶级的环境里，这真的非常关键。对我个人来说，这份情义始终意义重大。

I would have I would have picked Simon always. Because, like, again, a little bit like the North Of England, loyalty is like a a really important currency. It really is in these kind of, you know, working class places. It's really, really vital. And I think, like, for me, it was that always meant a lot to me.

当我听说其他成员考虑签约别家唱片公司时——他们当然有权这么做——而发现自己是唯一愿意留下的人，这反而更坚定了我的决心。后来他们都去了不同厂牌，有些甚至不在Psycho所属的索尼体系内。我当时觉得，哇，其他成员都这么做了，对我来说其实挺震撼的。

So I thought, well, if I'm I'd heard that some of the other boys were thinking about going to other labels, which was they were right too. And I had found out it was the only one that was gonna stay with him, and that just motivated me more. So all the other boys went and joined different record labels, some of them not even within labels that were in Sony, which Psycho was part of. And I was thinking, wow. This is, like it's amazing for me, actually, that all the boys have done that.

因为你看，这样我在西蒙眼里显得多好啊。我看起来特别忠诚，虽然有些是刻意为之，但大部分就是我本来的样子。我更愿意维持这种快乐家庭的氛围，这很适合我。

Because, like, look how good this makes me look to Simon. I look really loyal, and and and, like, some of it was, like, deliberate, but mostly, that's just how I am as a person. Like, I I would rather just keep the happy family kind of vibe. That that that suits me.

有件事人们很少提及，就是你的成功对唐卡斯特这边所有人的影响，包括你妈妈。我和团队采访你妹妹洛蒂时听到录音，她说这对你妈妈尤其艰难——你18岁突然离家。从你的描述来看，你对她不仅是孩子，某种程度上还是共同养家的伙伴。

One of the one of the things people don't talk about is the impact that your success has on everyone else back here in Doncaster, including including your mom. I spoke to your sister, Lottie, when my team did, and I was listening to the recordings, and she said that it was especially hard for your mom because you leave home suddenly at 18 years old. And from everything you've described, you're more than just a kid to her. You were, in some respects, a partner in raising the the family.

还是最好的哥们呢，真的。绝对是的。

And best mates as well, man. Yeah. Definitely.

她和你聊过这件事对她的影响吗？

Did she ever speak to you about the impact it had on her or all of that?

这个我记得特别清楚，她总用上大学打比方：我知道你迟早要离家，但至少有个时间表可以心理准备——比如三个月后去读大学。但单向乐队出道完全不同，一切都失控了。

That's something that I can remember really clearly, and she used to do the university analogy, and she used to say, I knew you were gonna leave home at some point, but I had at least a time scale to that. I could, like, work towards in my head, okay, you know, in three months time, he's gonna leave for uni, and that's that. One Direction never happened like that. You know? We it all ran away with itself.

感觉就像一眨眼功夫，我就搬出了家。妈妈连为此难过的缓冲期都没有。我在拍的纪录片里提过这个——我和妈妈的关系很特别：我失去童贞后第一个告诉的人是她，就像跟兄弟炫耀似的。我们之间就是这种相处模式。

So I think it felt like we all blinked, and before we knew it, I was no longer living at home. So my mom had no time to even grieve the idea of like and just for context, I mentioned this in, I made like a film and documentary, and it kind of sums up me and my mom's relationship perfectly. The first person I told when I lost my virginity was my mom. Like, was as if as if I was telling like one of my lad mates, I was just and I wasn't telling her for any other reason other than show off and be like, guess what happened to them? And and that that, we we definitely had that kind of energy together, you know.

我一直把她当最好的朋友。尤其她是19岁生的我，我们最初几年没有男性榜样，所以比普通母子关系更深刻。这事对妈妈打击巨大。如果能重来，我会更关注她的感受。其实还有个故事...

We we we we I always always saw her more as a best friend than anything else. And especially because I was her first, she helped me when she was 19, we spent the first few years together without a male role model, So it was a little deeper than your average, you know, son and mother situation. So I think it really hit my mom like a ton of bricks. If I had my time again, I would have been more present and aware of those kind of ideas. And I actually here's a story, actually.

我不确定是否曾告诉过黛西和菲比这件事。黛西和菲比是我的两个双胞胎妹妹，她们比洛蒂小四五岁，现在大约21岁。我一直能准确分辨她们，但她俩长得完全一样，尤其是小时候。我记得在乐队的时间越多，离家在外的日子就越长。

I don't I've never told Daisy and Phoebe this. Daisy and Phoebe are two of my sisters who are identical twins, and they're about four or five years younger than Lottie's. They're about 21. Now I could always tell them apart perfectly, but they look utterly identical, these two, especially when they were really young. And I can remember the more time I spent at the band, the more time I spent away from home.

我甚至没有信心直呼她们的名字。总是用'亲爱的'之类的称呼，这样就不必点名道姓。因为我分不清谁是谁。这是与我共同生活成长的亲姐妹，但足见我在家的时间何其少。妈妈偶尔会来看我，这很棒，但其他时候孩子们都在上学之类的。

I wasn't confident enough to use their name to them. It'd be always like, oh, babe, or something that way I wouldn't have to mention the name. Because I wasn't certain who was who. These are two sisters that I spent my life with and grew up with, but I think shows just how little I was at home. And if my mom would come out to see me, which was great, but other you know, the kids were at school and stuff like that.

所以在乐队的五年里，有很长一段时间没能陪伴家人。我想说85%是因为工作和单向乐队的处境，15%也怪我自己。我本可以做得更好——但当你过着我们那种偶像生活时，自由时间实在太珍贵了。年轻时总不懂得家庭时光的价值。

So that was a long time for those out of those five years we were in the band, a long time spent not spending enough time with family. And that, I would say, is that was 85 percent the job and the situation and One Direction and stuff, and then 15% me too. Like, I could definitely have done more like that. But, you know, it when you're living a life like we did in One Direction, free time is so competitive. And when you're young, you're not smart enough to realize the value of this family time.

你们当时就像乘着火箭一飞冲天，直到乐队宣布解散时你才23、24岁左右。那年三月，泽恩说要离开去过普通22岁青年的生活，震惊了全世界。如今你如何看待他的决定？当时你是否因他拆散组合而愤怒？

And you were on an absolute rocket ship up until you're sort of you must've been, what, sort of 23, 24 years old when the band origin announces that it's breaking apart. So in March year, Zayn says he wants to leave to have a normal 22 year old's life, which shocked the world. How do you reflect on Zayn's decision now? Because you were you pissed off at the time that he was breaking things up?

我火冒三丈。真的。虽然我们还没深入聊过这事...但我和泽恩之间，这归根结底关乎忠诚。我自私地希望他至少先和我谈谈。因为以我们的交情——我相信他也会认同...

I was fuming. Really? I was again, it's not something we've discussed enough yet, but me and Zayn, I mean. But, again, it comes back to, like, loyalty for me, and I just selfishly, I'd wished he'd had a conversation with me first. Because me and Zayn, I'd like to think that he would say this too.

他应该会。这么说吧：泽恩参与的最后一次巡演时，我们曾发誓绝不做那种每人独占化妆间的乐队。虽然接待嘉宾时确实需要分开，但我们承诺过不搞特殊。结果那次哈里、利亚姆、尼尔都有独立化妆间，只有我和泽恩共用一间。

I think he would. There was times where, like, we were like let's put it like this is a good way of describing it. On the last tour that Zayn did, they said we always said we would never be this band, the type of band that would have all their own individual dressing rooms. Well, sometimes when you've got a lot of guests and stuff, it can be challenging, but we always said we wouldn't be that band. And on the last tour Zayn did, Harry had his own dressing room, Liam did, Niall did, and me and Zayn shared.

这某种程度上证明了我们的情谊。所以我感到有点寒心，倒不是要指责其他成员...只是觉得我们的关系本该让他愿意与我坦诚相谈。现在回想起来——虽然他没明说——等我当面问他时可能会发现，他当时若告诉我，我定会极力挽留，而这或许正是他选择沉默的原因。

So I think I kind of like, testament of of the relationship. So I felt a little bit hard done by. I felt like like not like throw these boys under the bus, but let me know, but I just a little bit. I I I I thought that we had a relationship where he could have had that conversation with me. In reflection, and he hasn't told me this, we'll see, when I chat to him about it, but I think if he told me, would have tried I would have tried to tell him to stay, and I think that's probably one of the reasons why he didn't.

因为他知道我一向很有主见。

Because he knew I was always very opinionated.

那你是怎么发现的？

So how did you find out?

那天晚上，就在我们得知消息的前夜，一切如常。我们在酒店房间里。当时在某个地方，具体记不清了，可能是大麻不合法的地方，但我们正抽着大麻烟。一切都很正常，后来他大概十一点左右离开了。他状态很好，没有情绪低落之类的。

That evening, the night before we found out, everything was normal. We're in the hotel room. We were somewhere, I don't know where, somewhere in the world, maybe where weed isn't legal, but we were having a joint. And everything was normal, you know, and then I think he maybe left at, like, eleven. He was cool, wasn't, like, in a bad mood or anything like that, you know.

晚安伙计。结果第二天早上醒来，我们有个可口可乐的赞助拍摄，发现他不来了。其实我也常有这种情况，但赞恩特别典型。这对他不算反常，我一直很欣赏他这点——

Good night, lad. And then next morning, I woke up, we had a shoot with, like, Coca Cola for some sponsor thing, and we found out that he wasn't coming. Now, like, had this in me too, but, like, Zayn was quite prolific for it. Like, this wasn't out of the ordinary. Like, if Zayn I always rated him for it.

如果他不想做某件事，就真的不会做。随便什么事都行，不重要。只要他觉得不合适，就坚决不做。所以我猜...这大概就是他离队的原因吧。

If he didn't wanna do something, like, he he literally wouldn't do it. Like, you name the thing. It doesn't matter. He just he just if he doesn't it doesn't if it's not right for him, then he won't do it. So I think well, then then that's probably why he left the band.

明白吗？这正是我佩服他的地方。换作是我，可能会勉强凑合着维持表面和谐。不知道他是否后悔这个决定...

You know? And that's what I admire about him. Because if I was in his same situation, I would have probably put six plasters on it just to hold that we can stay playing happy families. You know? I wanna know if he regrets it.

倒不是说个人发展方面——他确实取得了惊人成就。但他肯定会怀念乐队时光，我太了解他了。赞恩和我有相似的脾气，有时候这份工作确实会让人感到琐碎，方方面面都太繁琐了。

Not in the way that like, he his own personal success has been incredibly successful, and he's done really, really well like that. But he must miss it. Like, he must do. Because I know really well, and Zayn has a bit of the kind of energy I do in such a way that sometimes this whole job can just be a little bit fussy. Just a bit fussy in general.

你知道吗？就是有太多类似的事情在发生。当你在一个乐队里时，你可以分担这些压力。比如说，假设你正在参加一个你不喜欢的采访，你可以稍微沉默一下，让别人来接话，他们会承担起那个角色。

You know? It's just there's just a lot going on like that. Now when you're in a band, you can share that wealth. It's like it's, you know, say let's say you're sat in an interview you're not enjoying. You just kinda shun up a little bit and let someone else pick up the pieces, and they'll do that role.

我们可以分担那些我们不太喜欢做的事情。肯定有些时候他会怀念那种舒适感，这是毫无疑问的。但说实话，这有点像房间里的大象，大家都心知肚明却避而不谈。最近我见过他几次，但我们很少讨论这个话题。不过总有一天会聊到的。

We could share the things that we didn't like to do as much. There must definitely be times that that he he misses the comfort of that, for sure. But it's it's kinda like the elephant in the room, to be honest. It's not I've I've met up with him a couple of times recently, but it's not often something we'll discourse. But there'll be a time for that for sure.

我确实想和他们进行这样的对话。但这让我崩溃了，伙计。真的让我彻底崩溃了。我当时心都碎了，因为感觉像是，哦，这是乐队解散的开始吗？但那时他也是我在乐队里最好的朋友。

I I would like to have those conversations with them. But it crushed me, man. It absolutely crushed me. I was I was devastated because it felt like, oh, is this the beginning of the end of the band? But then also, I'm like, is like my best mate in the band at the time.

所以我既失去了一个朋友，也失去了乐队里的一位成员。

So it was I'd lost a friend and someone in the band.

有趣的是，我听你说过，你既没有预料到单向乐队的成功，也没准备好面对单向乐队的解散。

Funny, you know, I've heard you say that you didn't you weren't prepared for the success of One Direction, but you also weren't prepared for the end of One Direction.

哦，确实没有。

Oh, no.

你还形容那种感觉像被一吨砖头砸中一样。是的。

And you described it as hitting you like a ton of bricks. Yeah.

那太糟糕了。直到事后我才意识到，我其实计算了所有这些感受，但就像我在为它直接哀悼一样。那是在哀悼乐队。不幸的是，我是一个对悲伤有点经验的人。虽然感觉不同，但那是同一种事情的不同版本。

It was awful. It wasn't until after the event that I realized that I actually computed all of these feelings, but it was like I was straight grieving for it. And that was grieving the band. I'm someone who unfortunately has a little bit of experience in grief. And all albeit it felt different, but it was a version of the same thing.

那是我真正想要却再也无法拥有的东西。我想，就像任何类似的事情一样，你知道，如果你是一个像我这样乐观的人。所以，我感觉事情开始朝着那个方向发展。但你却在看另一个方向，你在说，不。

It was something that I really wanted that couldn't have anymore. I think, like, anything like that, you know, like, if you're, like, a I'm a glass half full kind of guy. So, like, I I felt the wheels start to turn in motion like that. But you're looking the other way. You're like, no.

没关系。事情不会那样发展的。永远不会走到那一步或什么的。然后有一天我们开了个会，结果确实如此。

It's fine. It's not gonna play out like that. It's never gonna come to that or whatever. And then we had a meeting one day, and and and and it did.

那次会议上发生了什么？说了什么？是西蒙说了什么吗？是那些男孩们吗？还是代表们？

What happens in that meeting? What what what's said? Is it Simon saying something? Is it the the boys? Is it representatives?

是我们这些男孩，这很好。显然，事情本应如此。但我觉得那几乎就像是代表们在说话。真正有趣的是，那些真正严肃的时刻，我们在单向乐队里并不多见。我们只是随波逐流，真的很开心，你知道，为彼此感到高兴之类的。

It was us boys, which was great. Always how it should be like that, obviously. But I think it almost might as well have been representatives. What's really fascinating is those real serious moments, we wouldn't have a lot of them in one direction. We were just kinda going with the flow and really happy, you know, for each other and stuff like that.

但我认为那些你必须自私的时刻，那是我在乐队里从未真正感受过的氛围。因为通常，就像我说的，我们是肩并肩的。都是这种同志情谊，然后突然间，有人开始更独立地思考，更多地为自己考虑，当然，他们完全有权利这样做。但那天房间里感觉冷冰冰的。我特别记得这一点。

But I think those kind of moments where you have to be selfish, it was an atmosphere that I never really felt in the band. Because normally, like I said, we're arms and arm, arm and arms. It's all this camaraderie, and then all of a sudden, you get someone thinking more independently and more for themselves, which, by the way, they have every right to do, of course. But it just felt the room felt cold that day. I can remember that in particular.

那是——我在试图找到正确的比喻，但那是——这些都是我每天见到的同样的面孔，但我从未在房间里感受过那样的能量。有一种——有一种空虚感。我想可能是因为我们都知道集体走向何方，你知道，那可能是这些想法之间的一些摩擦。真正困扰我的是——这又很天真，当时太天真了——但我坚持要某种迹象，因为最初的说法是，我们用了无数遍的那个该死的词是什么？暂停。

There was it was I'm trying to find the right metaphor for it, but it was it was something where these are all the same faces that I've seen every single day, but I'd never quite felt an energy like that in the room. There was like a there was there was this emptiness. And I think probably because we knew we all knew collectively where it was going, you know, and that's probably some friction between those ideas. The thing that really bothered me was and this, again, is naive, was so naive at the time, but I was adamant on having some kind of indication of because it was originally said as, what's that fucking word we've used a million times? Hiatus.

是啊。顺便说一句，'暂停'这个词本身就让人尴尬。最初就是这么提议的。我记得当时我说，如果我要尝试自己做一些事情——其实那时我连具体要做什么都不知道——我就觉得有必要知道这次休息会持续多久。所以，我们就来推测一下吧。

Yeah. Which, by the way, is just such a cringey word. So it was originally pitched as that. So I was thinking I remember saying, like, well, if I'm gonna try and do some stuff on my own, and at this point, I didn't even know what I gonna do, I was like, it'd good to know how long this break's gonna be for. So, like, let's speculate.

一年？两年？五年？十年？十五年？我始终没得到明确答案。现在我能理解了，因为说实话，我觉得相关人士根本没有勇气直面这个问题。他们可能知道现实情况，所以才难以启齿。

A year, two years, five years, ten years, fifteen years? I never really got an answer to that question, which I understand now because, truthfully, I don't think the people or person involved was brave enough to answer that question deep down. I think they probably knew the reality, and that's why it was tough.

西蒙有没有尝试劝你回归乐队？

And did Simon try and persuade you back into the band?

这么说吧——西蒙应该有所察觉，但可能不够明确。因为成立单向乐队约两年后，我们团队就完全自主决策了。我们虽然是好孩子，从不粗鲁无礼，但西蒙...这么说吧，他早已失去那种掌控力。九十年代他或许还有这种影响力，但我们的团队始终保持着独立决策的自信，所以他从不参与这类决定。

Let me say that by this point, and I I I'd I'd say Simon was aware of this, but maybe not quite so aware. Because we're a band, after about two years of One Direction, nobody, absolutely nobody, could tell a shit. Now we wouldn't we were nice boys. We were never, like, rude or anything like that, but, like so, like, if Simon, it's like, it just we didn't have that he wasn't he might have had that relationship prior, like, back in the nineties when all that stuff was kind of prevalent, but I think we we'd always had our own kind of confidence like that. So he was never involved in those kind of decision makings.

事实上他很聪明，知道强行干涉只会适得其反。

In fact, he was smart enough to realize that that would rub us up the wrong way.

合理。然后一切结束，你的生活从极度疯狂回归相对平静。

Makes sense. And then it ends, and your life goes from absolutely crazy to less crazy.

没错。说实话，我至今仍在消化这段经历，试图理清所有细节。记得之前提过——制作人朱利安·伯内塔与我们合作过很多单向乐队的作品，我们关系很好。有次我们度过了特别疯狂的夜晚...

Yeah. It's something it's still something that I'm unpacking still, to be honest, and still trying to work out all of those kind of things. I remember something I spoke about before, but Julian Burnetta, who is a producer who worked on a lot of the One Direction stuff, we had a great relationship with him. Really cool guy. We had this crazy night.

那感觉就像在拉斯维加斯参加某个公告牌音乐奖。朱利安把我拉到一边，他说的话其实挺有趣的，因为他平时不是那种严肃的人，但这次却说了句分量很重的话。显然他喝了几杯伏特加红牛之类的。他问我，我们接下来该何去何从？顺便说一句，他用'我们'这个词让我有点不舒服。

It was like some kind of Billboard Awards in Vegas. Julian, he pulled me aside and he said and it was like really it's funny because he's not really, like, this heavy, but it's a real heavy statement. He'd obviously had a few vodka red balls or something. And he was like, where do we go from here? Now, by the way, the we upset me a little bit.

我明白，我们确实同舟共济，但这个问题对我的意义远比对你深刻得多。我理解。我懂。但与此同时，你很可能...而他最终也确实继续做着他一直在做的事。而我至今仍不知道那个问题的答案。

It's like, understand that, and we are all in this together, but that question is a hell of a lot deeper for me than it is you. I understand. I get it. But at the same time, you're probably and what he did end up doing is carrying on doing what he did. And I still don't really know the answer to that question.

事实上我依然...也许我认为你无法理解。大多数人的自然发展轨迹——我们姑且称之为成功吧——虽然我可以咬文嚼字地争论这个定义。但你知道，他们的人生是线性发展的，随着年龄增长会越来越成功。

And I still in fact, maybe I don't think you can. I think a lot of people's not everyone's, but most people's natural trajectory of let's just call it success. I could make a pedantic argument for it not being specifically that. But, you know, they have a kind of lineal journey. They that the older they get, the more successful that they get.

真正诡异的是，我在24岁时就意识到自己从此只会走下坡路。就像...根本不存在另一个我能维持现状或更进一步的平行宇宙。绝无可能。当时我就非常清楚地认识到这一点。

What was really strange was being 24 years old and realizing that the only way is down from it. Like, there there is no alternative reality where I at least keep up or supersede. No way. There was no chance of that. And that wasn't that wasn't, you know, it was very obvious.

周围所有人都看得一清二楚。但这依然是个挑战，因为你已经窥见过幕后的真相，明白吗？那些我曾经拥有而现在失去的东西，比如洛杉矶或纽约的专辑广告牌，如今我已得不到这类机会了。

It was very obvious to anyone around it. And still there's something that is challenging, definitely, because you've had a look behind the curtain, you know? You know now these those some of the things that maybe I had then that I don't have now, I, you know, I'm not I'm not overly pressed for. Like a, I don't know, like a billboard for the album on in LA or here in New York. Like, I don't get those kind of opportunities anymore.

我会因此失眠吗？不。完全不会。但总体而言，我确实觉得必须拼命努力才能保持现在的竞争水平。

Does do I lose any sleep over it? No. No. Not really. But I think the feeling in general of I have to work really hard to be to to compete at the level I do.

这就是事实。比如我刚拿了冠军专辑，而上张专辑《Fate for the Future》...我单飞时绝对想不到百万分之一的可能性。这要归功于歌迷、唱片制作人等等，但我始终觉得必须付出常人难以想象的努力才能勉强生存。现在说出来才意识到，我所谓的'生存'标准对很多人来说其实很高。

Like, that is just a fact. Like, I just got a number one record and the last record of Fate for the Future. Never in a million years, never in a million years, when I started my solo career did I ever think that I would be getting a number one record. It's a testament to my fans, testament to the record, the producers, etcetera, but I've always had to work, on my own anyway, I've always felt like I've had to work really, really hard just to kinda keep my head above water. Now the reality of that statement is, and I realize that as I say it out loud, my version of head out of water or head above water is very different to a lot of people.

因为从18岁到24岁，整个环境看起来截然不同。这就是为什么我一直觉得不比较两者是相当不现实的。我完全同意这一点，因为你无法将单向乐队和我的南方职业生涯相提并论。但这是你无法忽视的事实。我翻唱了——说翻唱其实挺蠢的。

Because from 18 to '24, that whole landscape looked very, very different. And that's why I've I've always found it quite unrealistic to, like, not like, to not compare the two. I I completely agree with that because they they you cannot compare them, the two being One Direction and my own, Southern Career. But it's something that you can't ignore. I did this I did a cover stupid of me to call it a cover.

后来意识到这有多讽刺。当我演唱单向乐队的歌时称之为翻唱，这真的很讽刺。但我在巡演中表演了《夜变》。特别记得某场演出，大概是个能容纳5000人的场地。

Realized how funny that is. When I do a One Direction song, call it a cover, which is really ironic. But I do night changes on my tour show. And I can remember this one show in particular. I think it was like a 5,000 capacity room.

当时可能只卖出了1200张票，还算可以吧。但当你在这样的场合唱《夜变》，同时清晰地记得自己曾在温布利球场演唱这首歌，看着眼前稀疏的观众席唱着'看夜色变换得多快'，这种反差有种残酷的诗意。所谓不现实的点就在于——尽管我已经是世界上最乐观的人，但生活总会这样挑战你，毕竟那曾是巅峰时刻。

And I think maybe we'd done, like, 1,200 tickets, which, you know, is okay. That's alright. But when you're singing night changes at a gig like that, when you can vividly and and visually remember singing night changes like that at, say, Wembley Stadium, and you're literally singing, look how fast the night changes, and you're looking out to this sparse room, it's like a brutal kind of poetry. And that's the point about it being unrealistic, is I could I could be the most and I am. I could be the most glass half full guy in the world, but life is gonna constantly challenge me like that, definitely, because that was the pinnacle.

是啊。我是说...这非常非常人性化。当然，你说的这种经历几乎没人能真正理解。嗯。

Yeah. I am yeah. I mean, it's it's it's very, very human. Obviously, the example and scenario you're talking about is one no one no one can understand. Mhmm.

但比较本就是人类的思维方式，是我们理解事物价值的方式。

But it's the comparison is how how we work. It's how we understand the value of things.

嗯。

Mhmm.

就像你说的，二十四岁就登上珠穆朗玛峰，意味着此后你总会不自觉地进行各种比较。该怎么应对？是否需要换套衡量标准？还是...

And as you say, going to the the top of Mount Everest at twenty four means that you're always gonna have some kind of sort of even unconscious comparison to to everything thereafter. Do what do do about that? Do you have to use a different yardstick of measurement? Do you

我 我尽力。我尽力

I I try to. I try

这些是词语，对吧？你明白我的意思吗？

to These are words, aren't they? Do you know I mean?

就是这样。

That's it.

诚实面对。

Being honest.

有些日子，我 我以此为生。有些日子，我确实以此为生。我 我大概四五年前在社交媒体上写过一些东西，是在Instagram上，我想，是关于我对成功这个词的理解，因为我花了很长时间，而且我只通过单向度的视角来理解它。我认为这是一场持续的战斗。这是我内心不断与自己进行的对话，让我可以用不同的方式衡量自己的成功。

And some days, I I live by it. Some days, I live by it definitely. I I wrote something on my social media probably, like, four or five years ago now, but it was on Instagram, I think, and about my interpretation of the word success because I'd spent a long time, and I only knew through the lens of one direction. And I think that's a constant battle. It's a constant conversation with myself internally that I can measure my own success in a different way.

这不必是一场数字游戏。你知道吗？比如在满足感方面，就像，你知道，就像我刚刚写的这张最新唱片。我对它感觉真的非常非常好。到目前为止，我有点逆流而上的感觉。

It doesn't have to be a numbers game. You know? In terms of, like, fulfillment, for example, and, like, you know, going do it like this latest record that I've just written. Like, I feel really, really good about it. There's been an element of me kinda swimming against the tide a little bit to this point.

那种满足感就像是，那是那是真实的。

It's like that the feeling of fulfillment is, like, that's that's legit.

你是否与之前的乐队成员聊过他们是如何应对这些事情的？

Did you have conversations with your your former bandmates about how they were coping with these?

是的，是的。

Yeah. Yeah.

情况各不相同。

It's all different.

说实话，这种情况通常只发生在我和利亚姆之间。至于其他成员，并不是说情感上不亲近——当然有感情，而且绝对超越了表面关系——但我发现自己不太常给他们发信息。为什么呢？我其实很愿意和他们面对面聚聚，但总觉得交流中有些流于寒暄，你知道吧？那种感觉虽然温馨，叙旧也很愉快，但我和利亚姆总能进行更深层次的对话。这么说可能显得自负，但我确实觉得...（停顿）我不该这么想的。

To be honest, that would only happen, me and Liam. Like, between the other boys, like, not that it's not, like, emotional because, like, it is, and it's it's definitely deeper than surface level, but it it's it's more it's more I would struggle to text the other boys as much. Why? Me just I would love to hang out with them in person like that, but I just there's an element of it feeling it's just all a bit small talk, you know? Like, which is lovely, and it's nice, and it's nice to catch up about that, but me and Liam would always speak on a much more deep level because and I like, he definitely he I felt bad saying this because feel arrogant, but I shouldn't.

我...我确实想要照顾他，尤其是利亚姆。这像是我自觉应当承担的角色。他看待生活的某些方式常常让我深受启发。尽管有时他表现出的形象相反，但某些时刻他展现出惊人的勇气——总是带着笑容直面任何人和事，他在这方面真的很有魅力。

I I I wanted to look I wanted to look after him, definitely, Liam. Like, that that was that was, like, a role I feel like I was there to play. And, like, he definitely you know, often his the way he would, like, perceive certain parts of his life, I I would be really inspired by. Like, he was someone who really brave at times, which, like, contrary to sometimes what he put out, but really, really brave. Like, he would ask anyone anything with a smile, Like, you know, he had a really good way about him like that.

可以说他是我最接近兄弟般的存在。我深爱着他，能和他连续相处无数个小时，但总会有种不自觉的牵挂，要确认他一切都好。

I would say he was the closest to being my brother. Love him deeply, could spend hours and hours and hours with him, but there was an element of always checking in and just making sure that, like, he's cool like that.

你曾为他担心过吗？

Did you worry about him?

总是如此。总是。没错。因为我知道他有点被误解，但有趣的是，当你刚以个人歌手身份出道时，那些真正了解自己的人做出的唱片往往是最好的。这一点毫无疑问。

Always. Always. Yeah. Because I knew he was a little misunderstood, but also, you know, like, interestingly, the record, when when when you're starting out as a solo artist, the parallels of people who know themselves made the best records. Definitely.

所以，如果你还在梳理作为一个人、一个成年人的自我认知——我们单飞后都经历过这个阶段——几乎不可能明确说出'这就是我想成为的艺术家模样'。因为这本质上是你个人特质的隐喻，至少最好的作品都是这样。利亚姆是那种我可以非常坦诚对他说'兄弟，真他妈见鬼，我怀念在乐队的日子'的人，我们可以进行这样毫无保留的对话。

So, like, if you're still unpacking all that information of who you are as a person, as an adult, which we all were post One Direction, it's it's near impossible to point and go, this is who I wanna be as an artist. Because essentially, it's just a metaphor for who you are as a person, or at least the, you know, the best stuff is. Liam will be someone who candidly, I could say to him really honestly, like, bro, fucking hell. Like, I miss being in the band. And we could, like, have a really honest conversation like that.

而——我这么说没有任何恶意——但如果我对其他成员说这种话，我会担心他们可能觉得'哦，他单飞后过得不好'。但对利亚姆，我从来不需要有这种顾虑。我们就像亲兄弟一样。

Whereas, and I I I don't mean this in a in a in a any kind of way, but if I'd said that to any of the boys, I'd be worried that they might think, oh, things aren't going well in his solo life, you know. Whereas Liam, I never I never had to worry about those things. It was it was was like brothers like that.

他向来情感外露，对吧？所以你和利亚姆就是利亚姆。

He wore his heart on his sleeve, didn't he? So you Liam was Liam.

是的。确实如此。而且我觉得这种生活方式非常新鲜，真的很酷。

Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. And I I just it's really fresh that. It's a really, really cool way of living.

虽然我们都声称自己情感外露，但说实话总保留着10%的克制。我的意思是，要分场合。但他确实有自己独特的处世方式。我喜欢...

Because we all say even, like, I would like to say, wear my heart on my sleeve, but, you know, there's still 10%. I mean, it's God in the right places. He certainly had his his way of being. I like to

就像我们刚才说的，我确实好奇这是否让他更容易受到压力影响。因为有时候，如果你能戴上另一副面具...对，如果你做不到的话。

I do like, as we were saying, I do wonder if that made him slightly more susceptible to the pressures because sometimes, you know, if you can if you can put on a second face. Yeah. If you can't.

是的，是的。这份工作中对我有帮助的一点——这一点在当下尤为明显——就是作为父母的身份，这之间确实存在明确的界限。工作中的我和非工作状态的我截然不同，无论是作为父母、朋友、伴侣还是其他角色。

Yeah. Yeah. What's helped me in this job, and there's no truer time that that kinda shows itself, it's me as a parent, at there is a real distinction. This is me there is me at work, and there is me not at work, basically. So either being a parent or being a friend or a partner or whatever.

这种界限划分总能帮到我，比如当我作为弗雷迪的父亲时，我就是全职爸爸，而不是歌手。外界的一切都与我无关，那些对父亲这个身份来说确实不重要。

That's always helped me to have that kind of distinction of, you know, when I'm dad to Freddie, I'm full time dad, and I'm not a singer. You know? And I'm and and any of that world outside does not does not really matter. It's not relevant to me as a father, which it isn't.

我之前有没有跟你讲过我们前公司遭遇的数据泄露事件？

Did I ever tell you about the data breach that we had at my previous company?

嗯，我记得听说过这事。

Yeah. I remember hearing about that.

那简直是场噩梦。所以我很庆幸我们现在用了1Password。

Which which was a total nightmare. So I'm glad that we now use 1Password.

具体是什么东西啊，史蒂夫？

What actually is it, Steve?

它叫1Password，现在是播客的赞助商。他们有个企业密码管理器功能，只要团队里任何人的密码遭到泄露或破解，系统就会通知我们。如果真发生这种情况，整个团队都会面临巨大风险。通过1Password EPM还能存储所有敏感信息，它正帮助我们逐步过渡到通行密钥，最终大家几乎可以不用输入密码就能登录所有账户。

It's called 1Password, and they're the sponsor of the podcast now. And they have this feature called Enterprise Password Manager, which means that if any of our passwords across the team are compromised or leaked, then it notifies us. And obviously, if that were to be the case, we're at huge risk across the entire team. Through 1Password EPM, you can also store all of your sensitive information. And it's helping us to move closer towards pass keys, which means eventually everybody will be able to log in to pretty much everything without ever having to put a password in.

听起来是个不错的补充。

Sounds like a good addition.

没错。我认为这是你能为团队做出的最具影响力的安全升级，特别是当你的团队有大量密码都藏在Excel文件之类的地方时。听众朋友们，如果想保障企业安全，请访问onepassword.com/doac。1Password是改变游戏规则的存在。作为一个拥有二三十个不同应用账户密码的人，它实现了我一直期待的未来。

Yeah. I think it's like the single most impactful security addition you can make to your team, especially if your team has tons of passwords that are all like hidden in Excel files and stuff. To my listeners, if you want to secure your business, head to onepassword.com/doac. 1Password is a game changer. It's the future that I always wished would be the case as someone that has, you know, twenty, thirty different passwords for twenty, thirty different applications.

我让助理Sophie为我在洛杉矶的新居寻找可靠安防系统。她发现市面上多数产品都有相同缺陷——它们都是被动响应，只在有人闯入后才采取行动。本节目赞助商SimpliSafe则完全不同。当有人在你住宅或办公室附近徘徊时，他们的人工智能摄像头会立即识别，随后真人安保人员会像远程警卫般介入，直接警告入侵者其行为已被录像，必要时还会启动警笛或聚光灯驱离。

I asked my assistant Sophie to find me a reliable security system for my new place in LA. What she discovered is that most available options have the same issue. They're reactive and only take action after someone has broken into your house. SimpliSafe, who sponsors this show, has a completely different approach. If someone's lurking near your home or office, their AI powered cameras detect them, then human agents who act like a remote security guard take action, speaking directly to the intruder, letting them know they're being watched on camera, and if necessary, triggering a siren or spotlight to scare them off.

他们还能直接联系911报警。正是这种即时响应机制让我选择了SimpliSafe。其他安防系统都无法比拟。他们没有长期合约或隐藏费用，随时可取消服务，还提供60天退款保证。

Or they can call 911 for police dispatch. This immediate response is why I went with SimpliSafe. No one else approaches security in the same way. They have no long term contracts or hidden fees, so you can cancel at any time. They also have a sixty day money back guarantee.

我的听众通过simplisafe.com/doac订购家庭安防系统可享五折优惠。重复一遍：simplisafe.com/doac。世上没有比SimpliSafe更安全的了。我这辈子从未见过如此完整记录人生的照片集。我是说...

My audience can save 50% on a SimpliSafe home security system at simplisafe.com/doac. That is simplisafe.com/doac. There's no safe like a SimpliSafe. I I've never found more photographs of a person's life in my life. And I mean

真可爱。这件牛仔夹克不错。

Cute. Nice little denim jacket.

看到这张照片你有什么感想？

What do you think when you see that photo?

看起来是的。让我想起了一段美好时光。

It looks like yeah. Reminds me of a nice time.

这张吗？

This one?

对，我我记忆犹新。我们在客厅里拍了一整套照片。双手插兜的姿势还挺有范儿的。

Yeah. I I remember that vividly. We did, a full photoshoot in my living room. Yeah. Quite the pose with the hands in the pockets.

这比我当时实际感受要显得随意多了。

It's much more nonchalant than I would have actually been feeling.

我是说，这些都是乐队照片。简直难以置信，看看这些照片里的人群规模，太疯狂了。

I mean, these ones are all the the band photos. I mean, it's just fucking unbelievable. Like, looking at some of the crowds in these images is insanity. Yeah.

哦对，这张是我妈妈拍的。这是她给我们拍的第一张合影。

Oh, yeah. This my my mom took this picture. This was the first picture I'd ever taken of us, and my mom took this.

你看上去超级年轻。

You you look super young.

对，对。那个，再说一遍，对。我是最大的，18岁，然后是哈里、利亚姆和尼尔，他们当时16岁，自称17岁。

Yeah. Yeah. That, again, yeah. So I was the oldest, 18, then you got Harry, Liam, and Niall, they were 16, saying 17.

当然，还有你的

And, of course, your

没错。我超爱那张照片。那张照片完美诠释了我和利亚姆的关系。我真的很喜欢。

Yeah. I love that picture. I love that picture. It kind of really sums up mine and Liam's relationship. I I love it.

爱死了。他当时可能在讲个笑话，我觉得没那么好笑，所以我会摆出那种表情。但大概一小时后，我自己想起来可能会笑出声。

I love it. He would have been telling me a joke that I didn't think was, like, hilarious at the time, so I'll be giving him that kind of face. And then probably about an hour later, I would have laughed to myself about it.

我还存着你美丽母亲的这些珍贵照片

And I have these these beautiful pictures of your beautiful mother.

哦，是的。它们很可爱。我喜欢这张。这张真棒。太萌了。

Oh, yeah. They're lovely. I love this one. I love this one. This is cute.

特别萌。没错。我家里卧室床头柜上就摆着和这张几乎一样的照片。

Very cute. Yeah. I got I got the very similar picture to this by my bedside table at home in my bedroom.

在你离开单向乐队约一年后，你的母亲因白血病去世。回想这些事件的时间点，想想被抛入截然不同生活的冲击——没有乐队成员围绕身边，接着母亲患上白血病（若人们不了解，这是第十二大常见癌症）。她42岁便离世。这一切的时间安排对我而言简直难以想象，因为你的人生经历了太多转变。我真的非常抱歉。

About a year after you leave One Direction, the your your mother passes away from leukemia. Thinking about the timing of all these events, thinking about the the shock of being thrown into a very different life, one without the boy band around you, then your mother getting leukemia, which if people don't know is the twelfth most common form of cancer. She she passes away at age 42. The timing of all these things is is quite unthinkable to me because there's so much transition in your life. I'm just terribly sorry.

我只是...你知道...不。

I'm just I, you know No.

感谢你这么说

Appreciate you saying

。我确实没有更多可说的，除了理解她对你的意义以及她在你生命中的角色。我深感遗憾。你知道吗？

that. Know, I I don't really have anything else to say other than just understanding what she meant to you and the role she had in your life. I'm terribly sorry. You know? There

正如你所说，这个时机确实...看吧。显然，这种事情从无合适时机，但正是这个时间点让我产生了约莫半年——我想说大概六个月——对世界真正的怨恨，那种深切的不公感。记得在极度悲痛时，哪怕只是踢到脚趾...

was definitely as you said, the timing look. Look. Obviously, there's no good time for anything like this, but I think the timing, that's what created a bit of didn't last too long. I wanna say maybe six months, but of, like, true, like, resentment for the world, like, real resentment. Just feeling really hard done by, you know it's the kind of one thing I remember about grief when you're in the midst of it, you could stub your toe.

对吧？这种小事都会让你觉得极端不公。若是平常，踢到脚趾顶多烦人，很快就能过去。但当我沉浸在哀伤中时，连这种琐事都让我难以承受。

Right? And something like that is utterly unjust. Now that's something you might have done, say none of this ever happened. You stub your toe, it'd be annoying, but you just get over it. Little things like that, I really, really struggled with when I when I was grieving.

就像本该正常运作的东西出了问题——比如我夹克拉链总是差一点拉不上。都是些微不足道的小事。但由于那些重大变故的阴影，确实...如我所说，有大约半年时间，我感觉自己做什么都赢不了。

So things that should work a certain way that don't. There's a zip on my jacket that won't quite go all the way up. Real micro, non important little things. But I think because of the weight of the stuff that had happened, there was just yeah. There was a moment in my life, as I said, for about six months where it just felt like I couldn't win.

事实上，我只会输。所以就连踢到脚趾这样的小事，你也会觉得‘又他妈来一件糟心事’。现在听起来可能很蠢，但当你陷入那种‘觉得自己倒霉透顶’的心态时，最微小的事情确实会被无限放大。

In fact, I could only lose. So that's where even just stubbing your toe, you'd be like, another fucking thing. Now it it sounds stupid to say, but once you're met with these when you're met with that kind of mindset of feeling hard done by, the smallest things definitely can amplify that.

你什么时候得知她生病的？

When did you hear that she was sick?

我和一位叫杰米·瓦尔迪的足球运动员成了朋友，他邀请我参加他的婚礼。当时我正在婚礼后的派对上，大概是晚上10点。那时我已经喝了不少伏特加红牛，这对谈话的严肃性显然不太合适。我妈妈打来电话，我正站在户外。

I got friendly with a footballer called Jamie Vardy, and he'd invited me to his wedding. So I was I was at the wedding, and now it it it was like the party afterwards, and it was like 10PM. At this point, I'd already had quite a few vodka red balls, which was not ideal for the the weight of the conversation. My mom called me. I was I was stood outside.

她打电话给我并不反常，所以我当时并不担心。她几乎每天都会联系我。当她告诉我消息时，就像人生中遇到任何重大打击一样——前十个念头全是‘这不可能是真的’‘也许她搞错了’‘也许是医生误诊’，经历所有这些否认阶段后，才真正开始接受现实。当时并没有晴天霹雳的感觉，甚至不觉得是求救信号，但那天晚上我彻底喝垮了。

It wouldn't have been out in the ordinary for me to call me, so I wasn't worried or anything like that. She called me, like, most days, if not every day. And then she told me and you know, like, what it's like anything like this in life, when when you hear something like that carries any kind of weight, like, the first 10 thoughts are either it can't be true, maybe she's got it wrong, maybe the doctors have got it wrong, just all these stages of denial of before actually, you know, even embracing the thought. It wasn't really it wasn't kinda really lightning. I didn't even feel like it was like a cry for help at the time, but that night, I got absolutely battered.

我喝得烂醉如泥。虽然以前也有过喝超量的情况，但通常是因为不清楚自己的酒量。可这次不同，老实说我从来不用酒精逃避问题，但那一刻我只想彻底逃离那个夜晚。即使在第一次和她谈这件事时，最艰难的是我仍想给她希望——因为她本人非常乐观。我既像所有儿子那样真心担忧，又试图在母亲面前稍作掩饰。

I got I got really, really drunk. That that there'll be nights where, you know, and there has been nights in the past where I'll have a little bit too much to drink, more from not knowing my limit. But in this kind of situation, it's not something I never really used drink for, to be honest, but I just that was the I felt the only way just to completely escape that moment in that night. What I found really challenging during even that first conversation with her about it was I still wanted to inspire hope. I still wanted to like, because she was really hopeful, and she was like so I was trying to have this, like, genuine worry that any son would, but I also was trying to shield a bit in my mom from that.

我不想让她觉得...你知道，虽然这显然不是她的选择，但我不想让她感到内疚。我记得自己努力对母亲坦诚感受，但有些时刻我会隐瞒，因为不愿加重她的负罪感。

I didn't want her to, you know, feel like she'd upset me or, you know, even though obviously it wasn't her choice, but I can remember that idea of really trying to I would be real with my mom about how I was feeling, but there were times when I wouldn't be, because I wouldn't want her to feel guilty.

所以她是在电话里告诉你确诊消息的？

So she told you over the phone that she'd had a diagnosis?

是的。嗯。她告诉我她得了白血病。我的第一反应是‘我不知道哪里又来了’，这简直就是否认的定义。我的原话是，‘哦，这个病还算好的那种。’

Yes. Yeah. She told me that she had leukemia. My first answer was I don't know where again, this is just like the definition of denial. My first answer, word for word, was, oh, that's the good one to get there.

对吧？意思是，这种病的存活率最高。但天啊，她不得不纠正我说，不，其实不是这样。

Right? Meaning, that has the most survival rate. And bless her, she has to be like, no. Not really.

从那次电话到她去世，大概有多长时间？

And how long was it from that phone call till till her passing?

我...我不清楚。我实在...我猜可能是十八个月。但我觉得可能比那更快。她忌日那天，我总会收到短信，有人会说‘今天想起你’。只有到那时我才知道那天是她的忌日。

I I have no idea. I could not I I want my guess would be eighteen months. I think it might have been quicker than that. The anniversary of her death, I get texts all the time on whenever the anniversary is, and someone will say, thinking of you today. And it's only at that point that I know that that's the day.

嗯。因为我大脑自动删除了这段记忆。

Mhmm. Because I just it's deleted from my brain.

她去世后...因为你生父不在身边，某种程度上你成了许多弟弟妹妹的‘父亲’角色，作为长兄。你在她去世三天后就登台参加了《X音素》的演出。据洛蒂所说，她在临终前极力鼓励你去完成那次表演，告诉你必须去完成。

She she passes. Because you don't have a your your biological father isn't around, you're very much at that point, you know, you're the in some respects, you're the father of lots of siblings because you're the you're the your big brother. You you went out on stage three days after her death for an X Factor performance. From what I understand from from Lottie, she very much pushed you to do that before she passed away and told you that you you you needed to do that performance.

我永远忘不了他在《X音素》决赛和Steve Aoki的表演——那时妈妈刚去世几天。至今难以置信他竟有勇气登台。但妈妈为他开启个人事业感到无比骄傲，甚至在最后日子里还说：‘如果我不在了，你也要完成这场演出。’当她真的离开时，我们都觉得没人会指望他登台，但他是为了她而坚持表演的。

I'll never forget the X Factor final performance that he did with Steve Aoki when my mom had only passed away, like, a couple of days before, which I still can't believe he even, you know, had the strength to do. But my mom was just so proud of him and especially him starting his solo career. Even in, like, her final days, she was like, if I don't make it, I still want you to do this performance. And when she did pass, we were like, there's no way no one would have expected him to do it, but he wanted to do it for her.

而我清楚知道那意味着什么。我明白她为何告诉我——因为她不愿让发生在自己身上的事影响我的事业与人生。若重来，我仍会为她这么做。那三分钟舞台时光，恐怕是我生命中最艰难的考验。

And I knew I knew exactly what that was. I knew why she was telling me. She was telling me because she would have hated something that she something that had happened to her affect my career and my life as a person. I would do it again for her. That's this I don't think I'll ever have a more challenging time in my life than those three and a half minutes on stage.

我只为她而做。这不是件让我回顾时感到骄傲的事——虽然确实骄傲——但那种'我为此自豪'的宣言，往往是你想做某事时的说辞，对吧？

I did it only for her. I didn't I didn't it's not something I look back on and go, I'm really proud. I am proud that I did that, but that that you almost say those kind of things when you want to do something. Right? I'm really proud that I did that.

当时感觉身不由己。我不愿她背负愧疚，但那确是我最不愿做的事。那首歌叫《Just Hold On》，讽刺的是，那些至暗时刻反而赋予人力量。

I that wasn't it felt like it was taken out of my hands. I didn't want her to have that guilt, but it was the last thing in the world I wanted to do. Like, obviously, like, I just it was it was horrible. And also the song alluded to the song was called Just Hold On. It's weird how empowering those moments are.

如今我能坦然说：尽管可能重演，但再遭遇那样黑暗三分钟的概率微乎其微。那时太年轻，所有时机凑成完美风暴，我像是被推上舞台。这段经历让我看清：没什么会比那更艰难。即便现在工作压力大，想起那刻就会明白——电台不播我单曲的痛，不及那时的万分之一。

I I can sit here now and comfortably say that the chance now obviously, they could, but the chances of my life being as dark as it was in those three minutes alone, like, I would be desperately unlucky to ever be in a situation like that again, where it was where I was so young, I was in a situation where, as you said, all the timing was, and then I felt like I'd, you know, been encouraged to go out of stage, it wasn't really something that I did that I wanted to do, it puts everything into perspective. You know? So, like like, nothing's gonna get as hard as that. So I think it it there's there's times where my job will weigh me down even, like, today, you know, not today, but I'm in in this current head. And it's just worth it helps me remember and helps me put things into perspective that, you know, just because a radio station isn't playing my single, you know, that that that hurts naught point naught naught naught naught 1% the same as as something like that.

正因经历过情感极限的考验，反而获得一种奇特的自信。确切知道：人生大概不会再那般黑暗了。

So I think because I was so challenged emotionally and I I I survived the experience, it's given me a weird kind of confidence, to be honest. It's it's just knowing that life probably won't get that dark again.

有时直到父母离去，才意识到他们如同地壳板块般支撑着你的一切。那是你当时的顿悟吗？

You'd sometimes don't realize the the role that your parents were playing until they're not around, that they're almost a sort of tectonic plate underneath everything. Was that was that a realization at that point time?

我对母亲有种不自知的依赖，直到失去她才明白。后来不得不学习独立——而她原本常给我信心。每当我担心什么时...

I I there was this true dependency on my mom that I did not realize until I'd got until I'd lost my mom. So I think there's there was definitely stuff that I've had to learn, like, being, like, on my own. And often she would inspire confidence. You know? I'd say, I'm worried about this.

我不想去参加这个试镜，或者我不想做这件事，又或者我对这首歌感到担忧。而她，你知道，她总是那样。在最初阶段让我觉得自己无所不能。实际上，她甚至让我觉得质疑自己能力的行为很愚蠢，你懂吗？

I don't wanna go to this audition, or I don't wanna do this, or I'm worried about this song. And she'd like you know, she always did. Made me feel like I could do anything in the in the pilot. And she'd actually made me feel stupid for even questioning the fact that I could couldn't do anything. You know?

所以我认为有些时刻你必须——几乎得重新学习那种自信。

So I think there's moments like that where you have to you've almost had to relearn confidence like that.

那么一个年轻人在如此年幼时失去母亲，该如何哀悼这种失去呢？

And how how does how does a young man grieve the loss of his mother at such a young age?

显然每个人的哀痛都是独特的。后来我发现，我的疗愈方式就是找到目标。当然，这不是每个处于类似困境的人都能拥有的奢侈。我确实有过极度悲伤的时刻，但这些都转瞬即逝，因为要为妹妹们做的事太多，为外婆外公做的事也太多。

Everyone obviously, everyone everyone's grief is completely individual. So then I found out more recently, purpose was mine. Now this is, again, not a luxury that everyone has in a situation like I found myself in. I I grieved, and I I I had moments where I was deeply, deeply upset, but these were fleeting moments because there was too much to do for my sisters. There was too much to do for my nan and granddad.

家人给了我行动的动力，赋予我真正的目标。在最黑暗的日子里，这成为我起床的理由——而且是充满信心地起床，因为有必须完成的事。那时妹妹们还那么小，我特别害怕这件事对她们成长的影响。幸运的是，她们每天都在给我惊喜。

There was too much to do for me family where it gave me something to do. It gave me a true purpose. It gave me a reason in the darkest days to get out of bed and confidently get out of bed because I had there there was stuff that needed to be done. And at that time, my sisters were so, so, so young, and I was so terrified of what kind of effect that would have on them, you know, growing up. And luckily, they impress me every day.

她们是了不起的女性。我的角色就是成为那个困境中的坚强支柱，成为能给予支持的人。比如黛西打电话哭诉时，我的职责就是让她在通话结束时能看到一线希望。

They're amazing, amazing women. My role felt like the strong one in that situation and someone who's willing to give someone, you know, Daisy had called me and she'd be really upset. And by the end of the call, she can just see the glimpse of a glass half full. That was my job. You know?

因为需要照顾其他人，哀伤反而变得不那么重要。就像有人会问'你对经历悲痛的人有什么建议'，这根本没法回答——因为我现在仍能感受到它。有趣的是，就算你和我相处两周，只要我不说，你永远猜不到我的经历，我从不把这种状态表现出来。

The grief became less relevant because of the need to look after everyone else. Like, sometimes you get might get asked, like, you know, what advice would you give to people with grief? It's just an impossible question to answer just because, like, I'm still I'm still feeling it. Like, you you could you could and the interesting thing about that is you could spend two weeks with me, and you never knew me, you never knew my life story. Never in a million years would you think I don't carry myself like that.

我不是那种会一直消沉的人，但它始终存在。你知道吗？它永远不会消失。

I'm not someone who's, like, down the dumps like that, but it's still there. You know? It's it will never go away.

它仍然存在的症状是什么？

What are what are the symptoms of it still being there?

有一种，我想说，不可预测的氛围。这种感觉有时也是我积极心态的来源。比如，事情可能明天就会改变。所以我认为这种不确定性和这种想法，这就是我对它的理解。而且因为我经历过的任何悲伤，都相对短暂。

There is, like, this air of, I suppose, air of unpredictable. This feeling of and that's sometimes where my my positivity comes from too. Like, things could change tomorrow. So I suppose that is and that kind of jeopardy and that kind of idea, that's how I would interpret it. That and because for for any grief that I've experienced, it has been relatively quick.

我并没有太多时间去消化这些想法。

I haven't really had a lot of time to compute these kind of ideas.

这是否会给生活带来某种焦虑和担忧，你知道，如果基础是不确定的，坏消息随时可能到来，这似乎是滋生担忧和焦虑的温床。我其实之前记下了这一点，因为我们早些时候谈话时，你说你小时候不是一个爱担心的人

Does that create a certain anxiety with life and a certain worry for life that, you know, if the foundations are uncertain and bad news can arrive at any moment, one would, you know it seems like the the breeding ground of worry and anxiety. I I actually wrote that down earlier because when we were speaking earlier, you said I wasn't a worrier back then

嗯。

Mhmm.

当你谈论你的童年时。

When you're talking about your childhood.

是啊。我以前不是个爱操心的人。不，我敢说大多数人都是这样。对吧？

Yeah. I didn't used to be a worrier. No. I'm I'm sure most people can say that. Right?

你的焦虑程度，至少对大多数人来说，年轻时忧虑会少些，那时候你还没完全理解自己的情绪。

Your worry your worry levels, or at least for most people, are you have less worry when you're younger, you know. You haven't quite understood all your emotions yet, really.

你有焦虑症吗？你为此困扰吗？

Do do you have anxiety? Do you do you struggle with it?

倒也不是。我经常感受到焦虑。但它能控制我吗？不会。你应该听说过这个说法。

It's not yeah. I experience it all the time. Is it something that kind of controls me? No. You know, I'm sure you've heard about this.

我的声乐教练总跟我说，焦虑和兴奋的感觉几乎一模一样。这话我一直记着，因为很多令人期待的事前都会让人畏缩。做不寻常的事总会伴随焦虑。我记得第一次巡演时，上台前总会荒谬地想：该怎么逃跑？

My vocal coach always used to say to me that the feeling of being anxious and excited are near identical in feeling. And that was something that always kind of stuck with me, really, because not always, but like a lot of, like, stuff that feels really good can be quite intimidating beforehand. You know? That that there's an anxiety that comes with doing something that is out of the ordinary, I suppose. I can distinctly remember not so much now, but on the first tour, like, I would literally before going out on stage, I'd literally as futile and as ridiculous as it is, I'd think to myself, how do I run away from this?

比如直接从门口溜走不演出？这可能算某种焦虑，但并没阻止我登台表演。我想这就是区别所在。

Like, how could I literally run out the door and not do the gig? So maybe that would be a version of anxiety, but it didn't stop me getting up there and doing that, I suppose. Maybe that's the the difference.

你母亲去世几年后，妹妹费莉西蒂也离世了。她的死因极其悲惨。你身边的人都说，母亲走后你全力支撑着妹妹们，成为了所谓的'一家之主'。而她才18岁，这让悲剧更令人心碎。

Couple years after the passing of your mother, you lose your younger sister, Felicity. And the circumstances of her her death are deeply, deeply tragic. When I was speaking to several people in your life around you, they they talked about how you had done so much since the passing of your mother to support your sisters. How you'd really take taken on the role as being the quote unquote head of the family is what they told me. And the tragedy is deepened by the fact that she's 18 years old at the time.

再次强调，一个人一生中经历这样的悲剧已是难以想象，而你接连遭遇两次这样的事，我真的...我找不到合适的言辞来表达。

Again, an unthinkable an unthinkable tragedy for for one person to go through in their life, but for you to go through two of these things in succession is, I mean, I don't have the words.

是的。这正是我之前提到的感觉，就像踢到脚趾时那种恼火的瞬间，但被无限放大了。我简直无法相信...无法相信我们家族竟会如此不幸。

Yeah. That was that was kind of what I was speaking of before, that moment of stubbing your toe and that kind of aggravating you. That was just like that idea accentuated. I just couldn't believe. I couldn't I couldn't believe how deeply unlucky we've been as a family.

我当时就在想，或许这不算太罕见吧。有些人年纪轻轻就失去父母，当时显然很难接受。我对生活感到愤怒，主要是为我的家人感到愤怒。当然现在我不会...我知道自己也是其中一员，但不会去想'我做了什么要遭这种报应'。主要是黛西和菲比还那么小，还有洛蒂也是...

I was just now, you know, maybe it's not overly uncommon. People that you lose parents young and obviously struggle to deal with a bit at the time, I felt angry at life, and I felt angry mostly on behalf of my family. Now I wouldn't be obviously, I I would know that I was included in this idea, but I wouldn't be I wouldn't be thinking, what have I done to deserve this? It was more Daisy and Phoebe are so young. They've already had so and Lottie as well.

她们已经要承受这么多。为什么偏偏是现在？这感觉真的...真的极其极其不公平。关于悲伤有趣的是，每次感受都如此不同。因为这次确实以另一种方式击垮了我。

Already had so much to deal with. Why this and why now? I just it just it was it did feel incredibly, incredibly unfair. That's something that's interesting about grief is just how different each thing feels. Because that definitely hit me in a different way.

我是说，这一切来得太突然了。那又是我生命中最艰难的时刻之一。当时我坐在伦敦的家里，一切看似正常。我有点担心——其实之前几个月我一直在为费莉西蒂担忧，就像担心所有姐妹那样。我正坐在客厅抽着大麻，什么都没多想。然后门铃响了，大概凌晨一点或午夜时分...

I mean, it completely sudden and immediate. I again, one of the most challenging moments of my life, the so I sat in my house in London and everything was, like, fine. I was a little bit worried. I'd been worried about Felicity for the months prior as I was worried about all my sisters, and I was just sat in my front room smoking a joint, not thinking about anything really. And then the doorbell rang at like one in the morning or something, or maybe like midnight.

我立刻有种不祥的预感。平时我不是这种人...换作其他日子，我可能会担心警察来查大麻。但这次不一样，那种感觉瞬间笼罩了我。我知道出事了——那个时间点有人按门铃，很少会是好事。我打开大门...

And I had this feeling come over me straight away, and I'm not really this kind of guy where I'm, you know, in in on another day, I might have been worried that the police were coming to grab me weed, but it wasn't like that. I just had this thing come over me straight away, and I knew it was bad. I knew that look. When someone rings your doorbell at that time, it's not it's rarely good news. And I saw and then and then I opened the gates.

我家有院门。当我打开门看见警车和警察时，他们告诉我她去世了。我的反应就只是'好的，明白了'。我说不清为什么这么平静，当时只有我、我最好的朋友和前女友在场。

I've got these gates, and I opened the gates, and I saw the police car and the policeman. And then they told me that she passed away. And I literally was like, okay. Right. I can't tell you why because it was it was just there was just it was only me and my best friend and my ex girlfriend at the time.

所以这并不是一种骄傲心理，让我觉得'好吧，我很酷，我没事'。我只是觉得当时我不仅在否认现实，甚至拒绝去理解它。就像'好吧，酷'这样。

So it wasn't like a pride thing of me being like, okay. Like, I'm I'm cool. I'm fine. I just I think I didn't I just not only did I was I in denial at that moment, like, I just refused to even compute it. It was just like, okay, cool.

然后我记得关上门，不得不告诉同住的人这个消息。他们立刻哭了起来，这时我的大脑才开始慢慢反应过来。此刻最让我痛苦的是——虽然这么说很蠢，因为他明明非常愿意支持我——但当时和我同住的最好的朋友今天也在场。我记得他红着眼睛说'我真的很抱歉'，反复说着这句话。

And then I remember shutting the door, and then I had to I told the people I'm in the house with, and obviously then they start crying, and obviously then I think your brain starts catching up with you. And something that was really, really tough for me at this moment in time, and this is a stupid thing to say because I know that he was more than willing to be there for me, but my best friend who I was living at the time, he was here today. I remember him saying, I'm just so sorry, and he was crying his eyes out. He just like, I'm just so sorry. I'm so sorry.

我竟然因为他的痛苦而感到内疚，这很荒谬。我之前说过，这个故事里涉及我和我的家人，但悲伤叙事中常常被忽略的，正是像我挚友这样的角色。他们不是专业治疗师，对这种痛苦毫无经验。作为朋友，你只能祈求他们给予某种回应——不是改变现实，仅仅是陪伴。生活中没有任何准备能让你应对这种局面。

I I felt I felt I felt guilty that he felt like that, which is stupid. But and so I'd said before about how this is you know, me and my family are are are some of the characters in this story, but often what's not spoke about in the name of grief is people like my best friend and the role that they have to play. Now these are not trained therapists. These are not people who've had any kind of reference of this kind of pain, and all you're doing as a best friend there is actually demanding or just praying, hoping that they give you something in return that will not change the reality, but just, you know, be there for you or whatever. And that nothing prepares you in life for those kind of situations.

这份恩情我永生难忘。是的，对我和家人来说这是难以想象的绝境。但其他人也同样艰难。我只能想象他当时有多痛苦——他清楚我失去母亲的打击。这种时候，语言是苍白的。

That's something that I will forever, forever, ever be in debt to him for because, yes, you know, this is an unfathomable, it's a really impossible situation for me and my family to have found ourselves in. But there are other people at play too, you know, and and and I I can only imagine how hard that was. And he knew how hard it was for me and how I'd just lost my mom. And and there are no words. Right?

你肯定在拼命组织语言，但根本无话可说。回想我之前说的：如果要用一个词定义我的人生角色，大概是'守护者'。比如保护妹妹们。

You just you I'm sure you're just scrambling your brain trying to find the words, and there isn't any. Also, bear in mind everything that I've said before this. If I was to dumb my role down to like one thing in life, I'd maybe say like to look after people. Well, like in the context of my sisters, they protect her. Right?

以那种方式失去妹妹时，尽管知道不该苛责自己，我还是充满负罪感。我感到无力，觉得辜负了妹妹和母亲。母亲临终前几周对我说：'你要保证照顾好妹妹们'，我答应着。她特别强调：'尤其是菲丽西蒂，她很脆弱'。

To lose me sister in the manner that we did, even though I knew that it wasn't fair on myself, like, felt felt utterly guilty. I felt powerless, and I felt like I'd let my sister and like I'd let my mom down, really. My mom said to me in that last couple of weeks of her life, she was like, you better promise me you look after your sisters. And I'm like, yeah, you know, of course, you know, will. And she was like, but specifically Felicity, you know, she's fragile.

那时我觉得自己失败了。这是实话。现在我知道并非如此，如果她在世也会这么说。但感受不会改变。这始终是我在家庭中扮演的角色。

I felt like I'd failed at the time. That that that that's the truth. I know now that I I didn't, and if she was here now, she would say that you didn't. But, yeah, it doesn't change the feeling. And that's, again, you know, that that was that's always been the role I played in the family.

所以，我母亲去世后，我试图做的只是把我和姐妹们以及祖父母保护在一个泡泡里，就像，让任何事都无法触及我们。你懂吗？这听起来可能很傲慢，我是比喻性的说法，但这确实削弱了我。它摧毁了我所有的希望，那些我在母亲离世后努力灌输的生活理念。

So and all I was trying to all I was trying to do after my mom was just put me and my sisters and my grandparents in a bubble and just like, let's just nothing's gonna get to us. You know? So that that and it sounds like a really arrogant thing to say. I mean, this more metaphorically, but it truly undermined me. It undermined all the hope that I'd had, all all these kind of ideas that I was instilling post a life without our mom.

它几乎瓦解了所有这些想法。让我更难去表达、感受和相信它们。对我的姐妹们也是如此。你明白吗？这让一切显然变得无比艰难。

It just kind of undermined all those ideas. It made it made it a lot more challenging for me to say them and and feel them and believe them. But it's the same with my sisters. Like, you know? So it it just made everything obviously infinitely more different difficult.

唯一让我庆幸的是，妈妈没有目睹这一切，因为对她来说那会是极其痛苦的。但是

The only thing I'm thankful is that me mom wasn't around to see that because that would have been horrible for her. But

你知道吗，有趣的是，我其实是从利亚姆身上学到这一点的。当一个人在与自己的心魔斗争时，除非你真正接触过深陷困境的人，否则你可能无法理解那种无助感。事后看来，没经历过的人会想，你只需要过去陪他们吃顿饭，问题就解决了。但实际上，帮助挣扎中的人的现实是，他们往往在私下和隐秘中行事。

You know, I actually learned this from being around, funny enough, being around Liam. When someone is struggling with their their own demons per se, unless you've been around someone who's really struggling, you probably don't understand how helpless often feels. And and in hindsight, it's, you know, someone that's not been in those situations thinks, well, you just you just go over there and you sit with them and have dinner and then you fix it. You just stay. But actually, reality of helping someone who's struggling is they often do things in private and in secretly.

你提到你知道费莉西蒂在挣扎些什么。她是因为你母亲的去世而痛苦，还是生活本身的问题？

You referenced you knew that Felicity was was struggling with something. Was was that the passing of your mother that she was struggling with, or was it life generally?

我想两者都有。显然，母亲的离世放大了这些问题。但费莉西蒂从小就是个极其聪明的人，聪明得离谱——这有点讽刺，因为我们家算比较聪明，但她完全是另一个层次。非常非常智慧的女性。我认为这给她带来了社交上的挫败感。

Was I think it was a bit of both. I think I think, obviously, mom passing definitely amplified any of those things. But I think with Felicity, she was one of these people that she was uber intelligent from a young age, really, really, really intelligent, which is ironic, because I'd say we're a relatively smart family, but she was, like, in their own league. Really, really intelligent woman. And I think that brought its own, like, social frustration for her, definitely.

你知道那种从小天赋异禀的人吧？她总觉得自己是个局外人，而这仅仅因为她的智商。对小孩子来说这很艰难。虽然我无法感同身受，但能想象那种被孤立的感觉。费莉西蒂可能是最像妈妈的人。

You know, you hear these people that are, like, intelligent from a young age. She would always have felt like she was on the outside looking in, but only because of, like, her intellect, really. And, you know, that's tough for kids when they're younger. Definitely, it's not something I can personally relate to, but I can imagine how that would be really alienating and tough. Felicity was probably the most like my mom.

所以那个那个那个然后那个也有它自己的方式，因为我觉得可以说费莉希蒂看起来最像我妈妈，视觉上也是。

So that that that then that also carried its own way because it felt I'd say Felicity looked the most like my mom as well, like, visually.

我是说，她

I mean, she's

非常 是的。是的。是的。这太疯狂了。

very Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy.

老实说，你们看起来都很像彼此。

You all look like each other, to be honest.

是的。我们确实像。我小时候经常听到这个。人们总说我有多像我妈妈，作为一个年轻小伙子，这可不是你想听到的，但我现在 是的。非常、真的很自豪你能看到我有多爱她。

Yeah. We do. I used to get that when I was younger. People always used say how much I look like my mom, and as a young lad, that's not really what you wanna hear, but I'm Yeah. Very, really proud you can see how much I love her there.