煤气灯效应与对话专家：这是你十年内会离婚的征兆！

那是给不安全的人准备的。

That's for insecure people.

真正的人知道，我就在这里，我很好。

The people who are authentic know that I am good exactly where I'm at.

哦，你想赶时间？

Oh, you want to rush?

我一点都不着急。

I'm really in no rush.

今天发生的事，就让它今天发生。

What happens today, happens today.

它真的今天就得交吗？

Is it really due today?

还是说，如果我需要，明天做也可以？

Or could it be done tomorrow if I had to?

如果节奏慢一点，我会发现，像这类事情上，有一种所谓的牛仔智慧——而我来自美国南方的德克萨斯，所以我知道，对的时机会在对的时候到来，不必强求。

If it's a slower pace, I find that there is so much kind of what they call cowboy wisdom on these kind of things where, and I'm from Texas in the South, so it's kind of this knowing that the right time will come when that time is right and not having to push that.

所以如果你要看看相反的情况， aura 的反面就是不自信。

So if you want to look at the opposite, it's the opposite of aura is insecure.

就是炫耀名人关系。

It's name dropping.

就是必须立刻成为朋友。

It's having to be friends immediately.

就是必须向你证明我有多少财富。

It's having to prove to you how much money I have.

就是把一切都献给他人，唯独忽略自己。

It's everything else being everything to everybody else except myself.

有自己风格的人，自然会散发出一种气场。

People who have a sense of style, their own sense of style, naturally have an aura.

为什么？

Why?

因为他们根本不在乎别人穿什么。

Because they don't care what in the world anybody else is wearing.

这就是我喜欢的。

This is what I like.

我女儿，她六岁了。

My daughter, all right, she's six.

我们试过给她搭配衣服。

We tried setting up clothes.

算了吧。

Forget it.

她可以穿着豹纹芭蕾短裙、戴着太阳镜，穿她想穿的任何东西下楼。

She can come down in a leopard print tutu and her sunglasses and whatever she wants.

你知道吗？

And you know what?

她觉得自己是世界上最酷的。

She thinks she is the flyest thing in the world.

我从不希望抹去她的这份自信。

I never want to take that out of her.

那些有时尚感、了解我是谁的人。

The people who have a sense of fashion, a sense of who I am.

他们不需要迎合任何社会标准的酷炫，但他们在乎别人怎么想吗？

And they didn't have to look cool to anybody social standard, but it's do they really care what anybody else thinks?

通常有气场的人并不在意。

Usually people with aura do not.

而且

And

有时候当你面对一些情况时，我的意思是，我们在开始录音前聊过，自从这本书出版以来，人们都对你说了些什么？哪些章节最引起人们的共鸣？

sometimes when you come up against I mean, we were talking before we started recording about since this book's publication, what have been people saying to you and what are the chapters are the chapters that stood out the most to people?

你提到，人们往往对如何应对艰难对话、如何处理难缠的人更感兴趣。

And you mentioned that it tends to be things around dealing with difficult conversations, dealing with difficult people.

对。

Right.

而社会上被过度使用的一个短语就是‘煤气灯效应’。

And one of the phrases that's been arguably overused a lot in society is this phrase gaslighting.

是的。

Yeah.

我查到的煤气灯效应的定义是：这是一种心理操控，一个人故意撒谎或操纵另一个人，使其怀疑自己的现实、记忆或理智。

And the definition of gaslighting that I managed to pull was gaslighting is psychological manipulation where one person purposefully lies or manipulates the other to make them doubt their own reality, memory, or sanity.

嗯。

Mhmm.

自从你写了这本书之后，人们经常跟你谈论煤气灯效应吗？是的。

Do people talk to you about gaslighting a lot Yes.

现在你写了这本书之后？

Now that you've written this book?

是的。

Yes.

而煤气灯效应是那种被过度使用、以至于我们几乎必须停下来重新定义它的事情。

And what do you think gaslighting it's one of those things that's been used so often that we almost have to, like, pause for a second just to define it again.

是的。

Yes.

让我这么说吧。

Let me put it this way.

操纵和撒谎之间的区别。

The difference between gaslighting and lying.

撒谎是表面层次的，比如我告诉你，这不是一个银杯，而是一个红杯。

Lying is a surface level of, I could tell you instead of having a silver cup, this is a red cup.

那就会是一个谎言。

Well, would be a lie.

操纵是我试图将你的现实改造成我的现实。

Gaslighting is I'm trying to alter your reality into mine.

我试图让你质疑别人如何看待你，包括我自己。

I'm trying to make you question how other people perceive you, including myself.

你如何看待自己。

How you perceive yourself.

如果有人曾经质疑过，我是不是疯了？

If anybody's ever questioned, am I crazy?

是我疯了吗？

Am I the crazy one?

是我吗？

Is it me?

是每个人吗？

Is everybody?

你很可能正在被精神操控。

Most likely you're probably being gaslit.

这是真相。

And here's the truth.

我曾经是那个精神操控者。

I have been the gaslighter.

每个人都有过精神操控的行为，无论他们是否意识到这一点。

Everybody has been the gaslighter, whether they intentionally know it or not.

因为这都源于一种自我保护、防御的心理：我不希望别人知道我生活中发生的真实情况，所以我选择误导。

Because it's all that feeling of preservation, of defensiveness, of I don't want people to know the truth of what's happening in my life, so I'm going to mislead.

而煤气灯效应的目的是改变你的现实，让你质疑什么是真实的，什么不是

And gaslighting the intent is to alter your reality, to make you question what is real and what is

不是。

not.

所以，我可能做错了事，然后回家时明明知道自己做错了，却故意向伴侣灌输一种现实版本，让他们从根本上质疑自己的认知，以此来逃避批评或控制他们？

So I might do something wrong, and then I might come home and know that I've done something wrong and intentionally try and sell my partner a version of reality that makes them fundamentally question what they know to try and spare me the critique or to control them?

是的。

Yes.

为了保护自己。

To protect yourself.

这是一种自我保护。

It's self preservation.

假设你和伴侣刚从晚餐回家，你情绪非常挑剔。

Let's say you and your partner had come home from a dinner, and you're just in a very critical mood.

也许你是在试图转移对生活中其他事情的注意力。

And maybe you're trying to distract from something else that's going on in your life.

你正在批评她晚餐时分享的那个故事。

And you're being critical of a story that she shared at dinner.

你心想：你怎么会说出这种话？

And you're like, why would you ever say that?

她说：一切都很好。

And she goes, everything was fine.

你回应：很好？

You're like, fine.

不，根本不是这样。

No, it was not.

你没看到他们的反应吗？

Did you not see how they reacted?

不，不，不，不。

No, no, no, no.

听我说，我知道你不想听，但大家都觉得你有点过头了。

Listen, I know you don't want to hear this, but everybody feels that you're a little bit much.

而我正是那个需要告诉你这些的人。

And I'm the one that needs to tell you this.

你有没有注意到，你突然开始改变她那一刻的感受？

You see how you're all of a sudden starting to alter how she feels in that moment?

我见过另一面的情况。

And I've seen the other side of that.

如果没有认真的关系修复工作，你根本无法回头，无法找到一种方式去说：好吧，我们究竟如何活在真实中？

And it is not at all something that you can come back from without serious relationship work to be able to find a way to say, Okay, how are we really walking in truth?

因为你在对话中已经远离了彻底的诚实。

Because you get so far away from radical honesty in conversation.

所以，精神操控不是一件可以轻视的事情。

So gaslighting is not something to be taken lightly.

但我要说，人们常常把这个词用在错误的事情上。

But I will say people often apply to the wrong thing.

他们会用它来表示：你说了一些我不喜欢的话，所以你就是在精神操控我。

They'll use it as a sense of saying, you're saying something I don't like, so you're gaslighting me.

我们在争吵，你指出了一些伤害你感情的事情。

We're in an argument, you're pointing out something that hurt your feelings.

哦，这是精神操控。

Oh, that's gaslighting.

他们用它当借口。

And they use it as an excuse.

这几乎是一种精神操控的形式。

It's almost a form of gaslighting.

没错。

Exactly.

完全正确。

That's exactly right.

而且以一种奇怪的方式，可能会反过来。

And in a weird way, can reverse that way.

但想象一下，我说了一些伤害你的话，而你却说：这真的伤了我的心。

But imagine me saying something hurtful to you, and you go, that really hurt my feelings.

我会说，这就是我的界限。

I go, well, that's just my boundary.

让我们为每件事都设个界限吧。

Let's just have a boundary about everything.

或者你就是在对我进行精神操控。

Or you're just gaslighting me.

你知道吗，我从未遇到过谁在谈论前伴侣时不说是我的自恋型前伴侣。

You know, I've never met somebody who talked about their ex without saying my narcissistic ex.

你知道吗，我终于摆脱了一段自恋型关系。

You know, I finally just got out of a narcissistic relationship.

从来都不是我们，对吧？

It's never us, right?

总是别人的问题。

It's always the other person.

所以，这些词我们可以巧妙地融入句子中，如果我们仔细看，这也是一种自我保护的形式。

And so there's these words that we can kind of pepper and salt into sentences that are also still another form if we look at it, a form of self preservation.

只看他们所有的缺点，却不看我的。

Look at all their bad and don't look at mine.

为什么我们不去煤气灯效应他人很重要？

Why is it important that we don't gaslight others?

我问这个问题是因为现在所有听的人可能都想得到这个问题的答案，那就是：我该如何应对一个煤气灯操纵者？

And I ask this question because everybody listening now is probably going to want the answer to the question, which is, what do I do about a gaslighter?

但再次强调，这是在回避我们每个人都曾有过的责任——在生命中的某个时刻，我们都曾对他人进行过煤气灯操纵。

But again, this is avoiding the responsibility that we all have a tendency or at some point in our life have gaslighted somebody else.

我不认为我的听众只是被煤气灯操纵的人。

And I don't think my audience is just got the gaslighted.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

从统计上看，显然你们所有人也都是煤气灯操纵者。

Statistically, clearly, you're you're also all the gaslighters.

对。

Right.

那么，为什么我们不欺骗别人很重要呢？

So how do why is it important that we don't gaslight other people?

我们有没有办法避免陷入背水一战、最终欺骗他人的境地？

And is there a way for us to avoid, getting into a situation where our back's against the wall and we end up gaslighting someone?

不欺骗别人很重要，因为每次你这么做，你都在越来越远离真相——远离你真实的情感、远离你们关系的真相。你是在向对方隐瞒现实，而不是坦诚面对正在发生的事情。

It's important not to gaslight somebody because every time you do, you're removing yourself further and further from the truth, the truth of how you feel, the truth of your relationship, you are withholding reality from that other person rather than having radical honesty about what's happening.

这会破坏关系。

So it degrades the relationship.

这会损害他人的自我价值。

It degrades another person's self worth.

在很多方面，精神操控窃取了他们的现实。

And in many ways, gaslighting steals their reality.

一旦发生，没有大量努力就无法挽回。

It's not something you can give back without a lot of work.

从某种意义上说，这是一种吸收。

It's taking in some sense.

现在，这可能是完全有意的，也可能是一种自我保护的无意识行为。

Now, it can be absolutely intentional, and it can also be unintentional as a form of self preservation.

如果你觉得自己正在被煤气灯操纵，辨别真相的关键是放慢对话节奏。

And if you feel like you are being gaslit, the secret to knowing is slowing down the conversation.

如果我在对话中保持静止，意味着你对我说了一些煤气灯操纵的话，让我开始怀疑：我真的说过那句话吗？天啊，我真的说过吗？

If I am staying still in the conversation, meaning you could say something to me that's a form of gaslighting, making me question, did I oh my goodness, did I really say that?

我真的伤害了他们的感情吗？

Did I really hurt their feelings?

我真的吗？

Did I?

并钻进我的脑子里。

And get into my head.

而我开始慌乱不安，试图改变自己做过的事。

And I start kind of jumping around and trying to change what I did.

但如果我说，斯蒂芬，我对这件事的记忆不同，然后我就停在这里，那你再怎么尝试其他方法，我都会重复说：是的，我对这件事的记忆不同。

But if I were to say, Stephen, I remember that differently, and that's where I stop, then you can try other things, and I'm going to repeat, yeah, I remember that differently.

这是坚持你所知道的真相，而不是因为把主动权和控制权交给别人，而被他们牵着鼻子走。

It's standing in the truth of what you know rather than being concerned and misled by giving someone the reins and the leash to drag you around.

如果我想想，我可能在关系中、在背水一战的情况下，曾经无意中对别人进行过煤气灯操纵，你知道的，当你和某人争吵时，或者在我脑子里很难区分：到底是只是说了些不一定真实的话，还是这就是你对事情的感知呢？

And if I think about I think it's thinking about all the times where I've I think I might have gas gaslit someone, you know, in relationships, backs against the wall, and you're having an argument with someone or it's it's quite difficult in my head to know the difference between the word, like, just tell saying something that isn't necessarily true or is that is your perception of things Yeah.

而与煤气灯操纵的区别在于。

Versus, like, gaslighting.

在你看来，区别在于意图吗？

Is the is the difference in your mind intention?

比如，如果我给出了我对现实的理解，是的。

Like, is if I if I give my version of reality Yeah.

我们当时在那个派对上。

We were at that party.

你说了那件事。

You said this thing.

我看到那个人翻了个白眼，然后走开了。

I saw the person roll their eyes, then they walked away.

我觉得他们真的很生气。

I think they're really offended.

我觉得是你冒犯了他们。

I think you offended them.

对。

Right.

这和我煤气灯操纵别人有什么区别？

What's the difference between that and me gaslighting someone?

或者说撒谎

Of between lying

和煤气灯操纵有什么区别？

and gaslighting?

或者这是

Or it's

嗯。

Yeah.

我是想理解你刚才说的那个情境，比如去参加派对，有人说了什么，然后就走开了。

Like, I'm trying to understand in that context you gave about going to a party, someone said something, and then they walk off.

如果你看到的是那样的现实并把它表达出来，这和操纵别人有什么区别？

What's the difference between if that's how you saw reality and you're communicating it versus gaslighting someone?

在于意图。

To the intention.

就是意图这一点。

It's the intention part.

而意图是，我要掌控一切，而不是

And the intention is, I'm the one in control, not

你。

you.

好的。

Okay.

所以你是在试图控制叙事。

So you are trying to control the narrative.

你试图同时扮演导演、制片人和演员。

You are trying to be both director, producer, and actor.

为了你自己的目的。

For your own agenda.

没错。

That's right.

为了你自己的电影。

For your own film.

为了控制。

And for control.

我是我自己的电影中的角色。

I'm the character in my own movie.

我是主角。

I'm the main character.

而你必须这样行事。

And you need to behave this way.

你必须相信这一点。

You need to believe this.

你必须对此采取行动。

You need to act upon that.

因此，我越能操控这种现实，就越疯狂的是，这种操控会变得如此彻底，以至于你也会相信它。

And so the more I can try to manipulate that reality, and what's so wild is it becomes so manipulated that you believe it too.

现在，这个虚假的东西在某种意义上已经变成了你的事实，真正高明的骗子会让自己相信这个谎言就是真相。

Now that falsehood has now become your fact, in some sense, the really good liars convince themselves that that lie is the truth.

在你看来，是否存在某种类型的人更容易被精神操控或在对话中受害？

Is there a certain type of person that's more susceptible to being gaslit or to being victimized in any way with conversation, in your view?

焦虑型依恋。

Anxious attachment.

那些无法自我调节、必须通过他人来共同调节的人。

The ones that are people who can't regulate by themselves, they have to co regulate.

意思是，大多数时候，我们是良好的自我调节者。

Meaning most of the time, were good self regulators.

只要给我一些独处的时间。

Just give me some time by myself.

给我一个晚上。

Give me an evening.

给我一个小时。

Give me an hour.

让我出去走走，我就能自我调节。

Let me walk outside, and I'll regulate myself.

大多数情况下，据我的经验，女性并不是这样的。

Most of the time, it's been my experience, women are not like that.

她们大多需要共同调节。

They co regulate, most of them.

她们需要你也能让她们感觉良好。

They need you to also make them feel good.

如果你不好，他们也无法好起来。

They can't be good if you're not good.

我们并不好。

We're not good.

如果你不好，我也不会好。

I'm not good if you're not Okay.

所以，这是一种整体的观念：如果你不好，我也不好。

So it's that whole I'm not Okay if you're not Okay.

因此，在很多方面，他们需要你能够让自己平静下来。

And so in many ways, they need you to be able to calm down themselves.

而且他们自我调节的能力较差。

And they don't self regulate as well.

因此，最容易受到煤气灯效应影响的人，是那些需要共同调节的人，即具有焦虑型依恋的人，他们需要知道：你还好吗？

And so the people who are most susceptible to gaslighting are ones who need co regulation, people who are anxious attachment, meaning they need, are you Okay?

你过得好吗？

Are you good?

你需要什么吗？

Do you need anything?

你确定你不好吗？

Are you sure you're not Okay?

而那些更回避型的人。

Versus the people who are more avoidant.

第三，那些通常更不安全的人。

And three, the people who are typically more insecure.

所以你认为女性比男性更容易被精神操控吗？

So do you think women get gaslit more than men?

是的。

Yes.

但女性也会对女性进行精神操控，对吧？

But women still gaslight women, right?

当然。

Of course.

但只是男人会

But just men are

在谈论关系时，我的个人观点是，因为从阅读我书籍的人以及给我书籍反馈的人那里得到的信息来看，确实是绝大多数是女性。

more When you're talking relationships, when you're talking relationships, that's my personal opinion, is because from my feedback, from the people that have read my book and the people who give me feedback on my book, yeah, it's majority, vast majority, are women.

我并不是说这是对此进行的实证研究。

I'm not saying that's some empirical study on it.

但我要说的是，女性同样有能力进行精神操控。

But what I will say is women are just as capable of gaslighting.

女性当然也可以对女性进行精神操控。

And women can certainly gaslight women.

我这样说的出发点是，每个人都会进行精神操控，无论他们是否意识到。

I'm saying this with the mindset of everybody gaslights, whether they know it or not.

而且过去他们确实这样做过。

And they have in the past.

而且很可能，他们能想起过去曾经在不知情的情况下这样做过。

And most likely, they can think of a time in the past where they did without knowing it.

但那是我的观点，大多数情况下，是男人对女人这么做。

But that would be my opinion, that most of the time, men are the ones that do it to women.

我在这里读到一些研究，显示关于异性恋关系中的情感虐待的多项研究表明，女性报告的煤气灯效应和胁迫性控制的发生率高于男性。

Reading some research here that says multiple studies on emotional abuse in heterosexual relationships show women report higher rates of gaslighting and coercive control than men.

男性也会报告煤气灯效应，但频率较低，且通常以不同的形式出现。

Men do report gaslighting too, but less frequently and usually in different forms.

就职场数据而言，来自管理和组织心理学的调查表明，女性更有可能面临对其能力的质疑、对其记忆的怀疑或对其经验的否定。

And as it relates to workplace data, surveys from management and organizational psychology show women are more likely to have their competence questioned, their memory doubted or their experience dismissed.

在男性主导领域中的女性报告了最高的煤气灯效应发生率，而有色人种女性则报告了更高比例的被告诉其感知错误、误解或曲解事情的情况。

Women in male dominated fields report the highest rates of gaslighting and women of color report even higher rates of being told their perception is wrong or misinterpret or that they're misinterpreting things.

听起来这与实际情况相符。

Sounds like that tracks.

在医疗环境中，女性的症状也更不容易被相信。

And also in medical settings, women are less likely to be believed about their symptoms.

女性的疼痛往往被低估。

Women's pain is underestimated.

女性在心脏病、自身免疫性疾病、注意力缺陷多动障碍和自闭症等多种疾病上的诊断往往更晚。

Women get later diagnoses for multiple conditions like heart disease and autoimmune disorders, ADHD and autism.

这样的例子还有很多很多。

And the list goes on and on and on.

如果我有

If I had

要说谁做得更多，我并不是想下结论说男人比女人做得更多。

to say who does more, I'm not trying to put some kind of headline of men do it more than women.

根据我的经验，通常是男性。

In my experience, it tends to be the guy.

这些信息向我揭示了什么？

And what does that information show me?

它告诉我，这听起来是合理的。

It shows me that that sounds about right.

我认为，从关注并收听我内容的人来看，因为我和我的社群保持紧密联系，许多女性表示，她们在职场中感到自己的能力被质疑。

I do think from the people that follow my content, listen to my content, because I stay very connected to my community of so many women say, feel like I'm in this workplace and they are doubting my competence.

他们质疑我做决定的能力。

They're doubting my ability to make decisions.

没人相信我。

I'm not being believed.

我被贬低了。

I'm being put down.

这甚至不是他们的经验。

It's not even their experience.

仅仅是因为他们的性别。

It's just because of their gender.

这些都是真实的问题。

And those are real questions.

这意味着这是精神操控吗？

Does that mean that that's gaslighting?

但并非总是如此。

Probably not all the time.

但对我来说，说这是个愚蠢的抱怨。

But for me to say, that's a dumb complaint.

这只不过是抱怨而已。

That's just complaining.

在很多方面，当你开始否认这种现实时，你就面临同样的问题。

In many ways, when you start denying that reality, then you have the same problem.

你知道吗？

Do you know what?

在过去十年里，我招聘了成千上万的人，我必须说。

I am I've I've hired thousands of people over the last decade, and I have to say.

当你没有经历过别人的处境时，比如你不是女性或其他什么，有时很难理解他们的困境。

Sometimes it's hard it's difficult to understand the plight of someone else when you haven't lived their experience, like you haven't been a woman or whatever.

这是不可能的。

It's impossible.

这真的非常困难。

It's, like, very difficult.

所以你有时候只能相信他们的话，因为你没有亲身经历过。

So you kind of just have to take them for their word sometimes because you've not lived it yourself.

对。

Right.

或者你可以看看数据或者其他东西。

Or you can look at data or whatever else.

我必须说，我确实遇到过一些男性高管，他们对女性同事的态度极其轻视，这种行为在性别层面上完全是不一致的。

And I do have to say that I have experienced male executives who were extremely dismissive of their female peers in a way that was 100% inconsistent as it relates to genders.

我的意思是，这些年来，我见过好几位男性高管，他们只是因为对方是女性，就忽视、贬低或不给予她们应有的认可。

What I mean by that is I can think of several male executives over the years who I observed dismissing or diminishing or not giving the woman in the room the same credit, really for no other reason than she was a woman.

所以这确实是一个真实存在的问题。

And so it's a very real thing.

我必须说明，这并不是所有男性都这样，但确实有一种特定类型的人，不知为何，在我的经验中，会因为对方是女性，就认为她在职场或高层专业环境中不如他们。

And it's not every man, I have to say this, but there is a certain particular type of person who, some reason, in my experience, would see a woman in the in the workplace or in the high sort of upper echelons of the professional environment as being less than them just because of her gender.

所以当我听到你说，很多女性来找你谈论这些煤气灯效应的问题时，这和我所看到的情况是吻合的。

So when I hear what you're saying about women are predominantly coming to you talking about these issues of gaslighting, it does kind of track with what I've seen.

我告诉你吧。

I'll tell you this.

自从我出书、做内容以来，这么多年，从来没有一个男人来找我，说‘我觉得我被煤气灯效应了’。

I've never had a man come to me in all this time that I've been, from my book to my content, this number of years, ever say, I think I'm being gaslit.

一直都是女性。

It has always been the woman.

从来没有？

Never?

从来没有。

Never.

那关于如何应对自恋者的话题呢？

What about the conversation around dealing with narcissists?

因为这感觉几乎是同一回事。

Because this feels like it's kind of one and the same.

这些词在日常用语中是混用的，但有没有男人来找你说‘我觉得我的伴侣是个自恋者’？

The words are used in the same sort of vernacular, but do you have men coming to you saying that, I think my partner's a narcissist?

是的。

Yes.

真的吗？

You do?

是的，我确实遇到过。

Yeah, that I do have.

是的，他们总是娶了这样的人，或者刚从一段与这样的人的关系中走出来。

Yeah, it's always they're married to one or just got out of a relationship with one.

但从来不是他们自己。

But it's never them.

当一个人正在应对一个 narcissist，而且对方反复对他进行精神操控时，你会对他说什么？

And what do you say to someone who's dealing with a narcissist, is dealing with someone who repeatedly gaslights them?

假设这种情况发生在工作环境中。

Let's say it's in the context of work.

是的。

Yeah.

他们该怎么做？

What are they meant to do?

辞职吗？

Quit their job?

嗯，那是一个选择。

Well, that is an option.

所以别排除这个可能性。

So let's not rule that out

好的。

Okay.

如果这对你来说值得的话。

If it's if it's worth it to you.

因为关键问题是，你的目标是什么。

Because that's that's the question of what's your what's your purpose here.

你打算在这里待一辈子吗？

And this is where you're gonna be forever?

那么，我们需要落实一些措施。

Then there's some things we need to put in place.

但你该怎么做呢？

But what are you to do?

你需要限制互动。

You are to limit the interaction.

比如减少接触。

Like limit the exposure.

少说话。

Talk less.

保持中立的表述。

Neutral statements.

所以，如果你能，有很多方式可以减少身体上的接触，我不必见到你。

So if you can, many ways you can, just limit the amount of physicality of I don't have to see you.

我不必与你沟通。

I don't have to communicate with you.

我知道你在三个门之外工作，但我不必成为你最好的朋友，你当然也不必成为我的。

I know you work three doors down, but I don't have to be your best friend and you certainly don't have to be mine.

第二点是理解你所处的这个游戏。

Two is understanding the game that you're in.

这是一个为自恋者寻求赞美或挑起争端的游戏。

It's a game for narcissists of praise or provoke.

意思是，如果我不对你大加赞美，自恋者就会转而挑起争端，以制造争论来达到同样的效果。

Meaning if I am not showering you with praise, then the narcissist will turn to provoke in order to create an argument for the same effect.

他们对挫败感的享受，丝毫不亚于对赞美的享受。

They delight in frustration just as much as they delight in your praise.

因为他们从中获得了同样的控制感。

Because they get the same type of control.

在我的领域中，我见过太多专家证人，他们可以说是自恋者。

I've seen so many expert witnesses in my field that are, what I would term, narcissists.

他们永远不可能犯错。

They can never possibly be wrong.

他们缺乏同理心。

They don't do empathy.

再说一遍，这是基于我的理解：嘿，我们每个人都有自恋倾向。

And again, this is me with the understanding of, hey, we all have narcissistic tendencies.

你知道，我们每个人都有自恋特质。

You know, we all have narcissistic traits.

自恋是一种可以被诊断出来的状况。

And narcissism is a diagnosable condition that you can have.

我认为，符合标准的人比他们自己想象的要多。

I think more people would qualify more than they think.

但日常应对的关键在于认清你所处的是什么样的游戏。

But how do you handle it day to day is knowing what kind of game you're in.

而这种游戏，你根本不会参与。

And it's a game you're just not going to play.

我知道我不必对那个人说任何话。

I know I don't have to say anything to that person.

第二，我会与他们保持距离。

Two, I'm going to limit my distance to them.

第三，我会使用中立的表述。

And three, I'm going to use neutral statements.

我会使用诸如‘这我知道了’这样的中立语句。

I'm going to use neutral statements like, that's good to know.

谢谢分享。

Thanks for sharing.

已记录。

Noted.

这些话让他们无法抓住并继续在对话中纠缠。

Things that they can't grab onto and continue to have in a conversation.

当你想到这类人的典型特征时，如果我正在应对一个试图操纵我、对我进行精神操控的人，我应该留意哪些特征？

When you think of the hallmarks of a really, really one of these types of people, what are the way the characteristics that I could should be looking out for if I'm dealing with one such person who is is gonna try and manipulate me, gonna try and gaslight me?

他们通常会做些什么？

What what do they do?

他们永远不会为别人感到高兴，只为自己高兴。

They can never be happy for anybody but themselves.

他们无法为你感到高兴。

They can't be happy for you.

他们无法为其他人感到高兴。

They can't be happy for other people.

这类人如果听到你说：‘嘿，你看到斯蒂芬刚得了这个奖吗？’

These are the types that if you were to say, hey, did you see that Stephen just got this award?

这不是很棒吗？

Isn't that so great?

她被提名了什么的。

She's nominated for whatever.

他们会说：‘嗯，我当初这么做时，还算不错。’

And they go, I guess that's fine when I did this.

然后就开始谈论他们自己。

And they started talking about themselves.

他们永远无法为别人感到高兴。

They can never be happy for somebody else.

他们无法为你感到高兴。

They can't be happy for you.

他们必须找到某种方式，把话题转向为什么这个世界对他们来说如此艰难、如此悲惨，为什么世界与他们作对，让他们得不到想要的东西。

They have to find some way to turn the conversation of why the world is so hard and so pitiful for them that the world was against them and they couldn't get it.

但他们其实同样值得。

But they were just as deserving.

我的意思是，我想这也没什么。

I mean, I guess that's fine.

我的意思是，我确实这样说过，但没人听，也没人真正在意。

I mean, I do this, but nobody listens, nobody really cares.

他们发现自己有一种强烈的受害者心态。

They find that they have a very victim mentality.

所以第二种就是受害者心态。

So two is a victim mentality.

所有事情似乎都发生在他们身上。

Everything happens to them in some way.

第三，他们无法体会他人的感受。

And three, they can't feel for other people.

他们不表达情感。

They don't do emotion.

一切都关乎他人会怎么想的感知。

It's always about the perception of what others would think.

他们非常非常在意他人如何评价自己。

They're very, very sensitive to how others might portray them.

所以他们会给你一个不同于对其他人展示的观点。

So they're going to give you a different view than they give other people.

因此，这对伴侣的关系可能很糟糕。

And so the couple might be terrible.

但对于自恋者来说，他们会向所有人展现出一段完美的关系。

But for a narcissist, they're going to put on a face that the relationship is perfect to everybody else.

每个人都说，你一定很幸运能嫁给这样的人。

And everybody goes, you must be so blessed to be married to that person.

而你心里想，你在开玩笑吗？

And you're going, are you kidding me?

他们骗过了所有人。

They're fooling everybody.

这是一种非常无助的处境。

And it's a very helpless position.

你有没有遇到过自恋者试图利用你？

Have you ever had a narcissist try and prey on you?

有。

Yeah.

有。

Yeah.

是啊，我在法律行业工作，老兄。

Yeah, I'm in the legal field, man.

专家证人有不可置疑的意见。

Expert witnesses have opinions to them that are unquestionable.

你不能。

You can't.

这是他们的观点，当有另一位专家说出完全相反的意见时，没人能反驳它。

This is their opinion, and nobody else could ever argue with it when I have another expert who says just the opposite.

所以很多时候，他们非常傲慢。

So a lot of the times, they are very condescending.

你知道，这没关系。

You know, that's fine.

他们有自己的观点，这就是全部了，你居然敢质疑我，真是愚蠢。

And they have their opinion, and this is all there is, and how dumb of you to ever question me.

通常，暴露他们真实面目的是，我觉得这个人根本不可能讲道理。

And usually, what gives it away is if I feel like this is somebody that, Okay, they can't be reasonable.

他们永远不会在什么是合理的问题上让步。

They're never going to give an inch on what's reasonable.

我会问这个问题。

I will ask this.

我会说，这通常发生在取证过程中。

I'll say this is typically in a deposition.

我会说，你觉得陪审团会喜欢这样吗？

I'll say, and you think the jury's going to like that?

或者你觉得其他人会同意你的观点。

Or you think other people are going to agree with you.

突然间，他们会立刻改变态度，以迎合陪审团的想法。

And all of a sudden, they kind of change in an instant to be able to match what the jury is going to think.

所以，如果我问：你觉得这样没问题，你觉得别人也会觉得这样没问题，你觉得陪审团听到这种强硬观点时，都会同意吗？

So if I were to say, and you think that's Okay, and you think others are going to find that Okay, And you think that the jury, when they hear this, they're all going to agree with this very hard line opinion.

我每次都会看到这种情况。

I've seen it every time.

或者只有当我提到其他人时，他们才会在向他人展示自己时装模作样。

Or it's only when I reference other people, the presentation of themselves to other people, that they kind of put on a show.

为什么？

Why?

因为他们知道，人群的观感至关重要。

Because they know that the perception of the crowd is everything.

他们需要每个人都喜欢他们，追捧他们。

They need everybody to like them, to fawn over them.

他们希望自己的观点是最出色的。

They want their idea to be the best.

因此，他们会操纵局面，变成变色龙，确保每个人——至少在他们自己心中——都爱他们。

And so they will manipulate the situation to be the chameleon, to make sure that everybody loves them, at least in their mind.

这并不是一种理性的想法。

It's not a reasonable thought.

因此，他们通常会改变自己的观点，使其听起来更易被接受，尽管他们在 deposition 开始两小时后本可以承认这一点。

And so they will typically change their opinion to sound more palatable, even though they could have admitted to that two hours into the deposition.

他们比房间里平均的人说得更多还是更少？

Do they tend to talk more or less than the average person in the room?

多得多。

Much more.

在仅仅是不自信和成为自恋者之间，有一条细微的界限吗？

Is there a thin line between just being insecure and being a narcissist?

因为我在想，你之前说过，他们往往会把一切话题拉回自己身上。

Because one of the things I was thinking about is you said earlier that they tend to bring everything back to themselves.

我想到了我认识的那些人，如果我们正在谈论你的书取得了巨大成功，他们第一个反应就是提到自己的书。

And I was thinking about all the people that I know that if we were having a conversation about your book doing really, really well, the first response to that would be their mention of their own book.

他们会立刻把话题转到与自己相关的事情上。

Like, they would immediately bring it straight back to something about them.

我一直在想，其中一些人我只归类为有点不自信，他们在寻求认可。

And I was wondering, some of those people I just have in the category of just being a little bit insecure and that they're in a search for validation.

所以我想知道，你觉得自恋行为和极度不自信之间的界限在哪里？

So I'm wondering where you think the line might be between sort of narcissistic behavior and just like extremely insecure.

也许根本就没有界限。

Maybe there's not a line.

也许极度的不安全感就是自恋。

Maybe extreme insecurity is narcissism.

两者都可能是真的。

Both can be true.

我会说，并非所有不安全的人都自恋，但所有自恋者都缺乏安全感。

I'd say that not all insecure people are narcissists, but all narcissists are insecure.

如果非要划一条界限，我会说那在于对成长的兴趣。

I would say that if I had to give some kind of line, it would be the interest for growth.

不安全的人在寻找成长、获得安全感和建立联结的方式。

Insecure people are looking for ways to grow and to secure and attach.

自恋者并不想与任何人建立联结。

Narcissists, they're not looking for anybody to attach onto.

他们需要的是别人支持他们、取悦他们。

They're looking for people to support them, to please them.

因此，他们对成长毫无兴趣。

And so they have no interest in growth.

在他们看来，他们已经学到了所有该学的东西。

To them, they've learned all they have learned.

我就是最棒的。

I am the best.

我再也无法进步了。

I cannot improve anymore.

对我来说，这就是区别所在。

That, to me, would be the difference.

当你在自己的生活中和法庭上应对自恋者时，他们为什么无法对你下手？

When you dealt with narcissists in your own life and in the courtroom, what is the reason why they couldn't prey on you?

你作为辩护方做了什么来阻止他们的把戏，

What did you do as defense to stop their games,

他们那些典型的、针对你的手段？

their typical games, working on you?

我不去追逐他们的话。

I don't chase their words.

在对话中，我经常看到的一个最大问题是，自恋者会故意挖个坑，明白吗？

Often, one of the biggest things I see wrong in conversation is a narcissist will same for a gas lighter they'll dig a hole, all right?

然后他们指望你去填平它。

And then they expect you to fill it.

意思是，他们会说些话来激怒你。

Meaning, they're going to say something to frustrate you.

而你却说：不，不，

And you go, no, no.

事情不是这样的。

That's not what happened.

你忘了吗？

Don't you remember?

于是你开始追着辩解。

And you start chasing it.

而他们则继续挖下一个坑。

And then they just dig another hole.

然后你继续下去。

And then you keep going.

你还是继续下去。

And you keep going.

你感到精疲力尽。

And you're exhausted.

因为你一直在努力填坑。

Because all you've been doing is trying to plug holes.

你根本没有进行真正的对话。

You're not having a real conversation.

当我能给出一个非常清晰的定义、一个明确的信号时，我就只是停在那里。

And when I can give it a very clear definition, a very clear signal of noted, I'm just going to stay right there.

我会放下铲子，就待在那里陪着他们。

I'm going to put down the shovel and stay right there with them.

也许我会用中立的语气说一句：明白了。

And maybe I'll say something as neutral as, got it.

我不必去追它。

I don't have to chase it.

我不必说任何话。

I don't have to say anything.

在我看来，那些具有自恋特质的人，一旦意识到他们无法对你玩弄手段，知道你不会配合，就会去找别人。

And to me, the people that have those narcissistic traits, once they realize that they can have no game with you, that you're not going to play, they find somebody else.

他们会去找别人。

They find somebody else.

如果你曾经遇到过某个人，他们是那种情绪上更具毒性的人，他们总是有些问题。

If you've ever had somebody come to you, and they're the more emotionally toxic type of person, they always have some kind of problem.

他们来找你，然后就带来一个问题。

They come with you, they have this problem.

我会说，我真的不行。

You go, I just can't.

或者此刻，我会。

Or at this moment, I will.

十分钟后，发生了什么？

And ten minutes later, what's happened?

他们不再有这个问题了。

They don't have that issue.

他们已经去找别人了。

They've already gone to talk to somebody else.

我正在看戴姆·达什在《早餐俱乐部》上的节目。

I was watching Dame Dash on The Breakfast Club.

我不知道你有没有看过，但真的挺奇怪的。

I don't know if you've seen it, but it's really weird.

不

Not

《早餐俱乐部》。

The Breakfast Club.

但戴姆·达什之所以出现在那里，是因为他申请了破产，而夏尔曼一直坐在那里。

But it's it's Dame Dash is on there because he he was he filed for bankruptcy, and Charlemagne has sat there.

嗯。

Mhmm.

查理曼很放松，我其实采访过他们两个人，达姆和查理曼。

And Charlemagne is I've actually interviewed both of them, both Dame and Charlemagne.

查理曼非常放松，时不时就会告诉达姆，说他觉得他破产了。

And Charlemagne is very relaxed and every once in a while just tells Dame Dash that he thinks he's broke.

然后达姆就特别容易激动，拼命证明自己没破产，就像在给自己打气一样。

And then Dame Dash is, like, very, like, hot headed and, like, trying to prove prove all the reasons why he's not broken, like, really, like, you know, gassing himself.

我觉得这是一段很有趣的视频。

And I it was it was an interesting it's an interesting video to watch, I think.

这是最近一年内发布的，在我看来，它展示了如何应对一个自我意识非常强的人。

It's the more recent one that came out within the last year because it does show, in my view, how to deal with someone who has a very has a significant ego Yeah.

那就是查理曼始终保持着冷静。

Which is Charlemagne just never changes state.

不管音量多大，不管情绪多么激烈，即使他开始说出一些非常个人化的侮辱，查理曼的举止、语气和姿态都始终如一。

Like, no matter what the volume is, no matter how much emotion, no matter when he starts calling him some quite personal insults, Charlamagne's demeanor, his tone, his posture Yeah.

从不改变。

Doesn't change.

毫不在意。

Unbothered.

毫不在意。

Unbothered.

你可以看到这非常容易激怒人，但你就是无法影响到他。

And you can see it's super triggering, but you just can't get to this guy.

没错。

Like Right.

看起来Dame真的很恼火，他试图说更多冒犯的话。

It looks like Dame is, like, really annoyed that he and he tries to say more offensive things.

他说你

He goes, you're

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

对于这个，你是那个，另一个。

With this, you're that, the other.

这很有趣，因为我今天早上看了，对我来说，这和你所说的很多关于不随他们起舞的内容很契合。

And it's funny because I was watching it this morning, and it, for me, it kind of tracks with a lot of the stuff you're saying about, like, just not going with them.

嗯。

Yeah.

就是不跟着他们走。

Just not following them.

因为他们想让你去某个地方。

Because they want you to go somewhere.

然后他们想和你发生某种冲突。

And then there's a certain conflict they want to get in with you.

如果你只是拒绝，坚定地保持自己的观点，看下去会很有趣。

And if you just kind of refuse and just stay anchored to whatever your point of view is, it's funny to watch.

他们想逼你。

They want to push you.

是的。

Yeah.

我小时候记得，我坐在副驾驶座上。

My dad, I can remember growing up, I'd be in the passenger seat.

他在开车。

He's driving.

你有没有遇到过这种情况：你坐在副驾驶座，有人紧紧跟在后面，几乎贴着你的车尾？

Have you ever had it where somebody, you're in the passenger seat, and somebody's just rearing a bumper right on them.

我会看着侧后视镜。

And I'd be looking in the side mirror.

我开始为他紧张起来。

I'm like, I kind of start stressing out for him.

知道吗？有人紧贴着他的车尾，真的在追着他的屁股。

Know, to have somebody's really riding the bumper, know, right behind him.

而且，简直像时钟一样准。

And I mean, just like clockwork.

他通常会这么做，德克萨斯的道路上都有路肩。

What he would do, we have shoulders on the roads there in Texas.

他不会试图加速或者生气，而是直接靠边停到路肩上。

And rather than trying to speed up or get mad, he would just kind of pull over to the shoulder.

每次他都会说这句话。

And he would say this every time.

他会说：‘去吧，做你自己。’

He'd say, go on with your bad self.

每次他都会在后视镜里说：‘去吧，做你自己。’

Every time he'd go, go on with your bad self in the rear view mirror.

他对这种情况完全不在乎。

That's how unbothered he was by that.

我觉得很多人都会路怒。

I feel like so many people get road rage.

很多人开车时会大声对其他车说话。

And so many people talk out loud to the cars while they're driving.

但他从不因此生气，我意识到我的价值和自我认知并不取决于你认为我该去哪里。

And it just never got him worked up and realizing my value and my worth of knowing who I am is not at all determined by where you feel I should go.

这又回到了那个想法：如果你非要说天空是紫色的，那就随你便吧。

It goes back to that idea of, if you want to tell me the sky is purple, knock yourself out.

你知道，我不必非得对，你也没有能力逼迫我。

You know, I don't have to be right, and you don't have the ability to push me.

我可以移动，而你有你的路，我知道我的车道。

I can move, and you have your own I know my lane.

我知道我的速度。

I know my speed.

我不必跟任何人保持一致。

I don't have to match anybody else's.

所以当一个人无动于衷时，并不是因为他们不在乎。

So when somebody is unbothered, it's not because they don't care.

这并不是因为不在乎。

It's not for lack of care.

这是一种理解。

It's an understanding.

这是一种洞察，我知道此刻的自己，为什么我要试图成为别人呢？

It's discernment of knowing, I know who I am in this moment, and why in the world would I try to be anybody else?

如果我们都能做到不被激怒，生活会不会很棒？

Wouldn't life be amazing if we could all be untriggerable?

那样会更平和。

It'd be more peaceable.

那当然。

That's for sure.

这很有趣，因为再次回想今天早上我看的那场访谈，当Dame Dash对Charlemagne说了非常非常冒犯的话时，我作为观众，立刻看向Charlemagne，想通过他的反应来判断Dame Dash说的话是否属实。

It's interesting because, again, just reflecting on that interview I watched this morning, when Dame Dash calls Charlemagne something really, really offensive, I noticed that as a viewer, I immediately look at Charlemagne to see his reaction to figure out if what Dame Dash just said was true.

你明白我的意思吗？

And do you see what I'm saying?

所以他转过身对他说：你是个前夫。

So he he turned to him and said, you're a ex.

对。

Right.

然后夏尔勒格只是笑了笑。

And then Charlemagne just kind of laughed.

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

就像鸭子身上的水一样，完全不往心里去。

Like, it just it was like water off a duck's back.

所以作为观众，我立刻想：哦，那肯定不是真的。

So immediately as the viewer, I go, oh, that can't be true then

因为查理曼似乎并不在意。

because Charlemagne doesn't seem to care.

没错。

Exactly.

这并不是不在乎。

Well, it's it's not the lack of a care.

恰恰相反。

It's just the opposite.

正是因为清楚自己是谁，才更加在意。

It's all the more care of knowing who he is.

所以，如果我现在告诉你，我讨厌你这件紫色衬衫。

So if I were to tell you right now, I hate your purple shirt.

这是我见过最丑的紫色衬衫了，史蒂文。

It's the most ugliest purple shirt I've ever seen, Steven.

你的这件紫色衬衫实在太丑了。

Like, your shirt is so ugly in that purple.

这对你有任何影响吗？

Does it affect you whatsoever?

没有，因为当苹果公司成立时，我并没有穿任何紫色衬衫给别人看。

No, because I'm not wearing a purple shirt for anyone to see when Apple is

诞生了。

born.

没错。

That's right.

这是个好观点。

That's a good point.

对。

Right.

但你看到你已经了解自己的特点了吗？

But you see how you already know the characteristics of you.

你已经知道自己穿的是什么了。

You already know what you're wearing.