非法投放饲料！对立面的张力

嘿，Dream的听众们。现在有一个无广告版本的Dream节目可以订阅，叫做Dream Plus，网址是dream.supercast.com。每月5美元，您就可以收听这个节目的每一集，完全没有广告，这是您和我都喜欢的。我们希望这能帮助我们支付账单，主要目标是让我们能继续制作这个节目。请前往dream.supercast.com订阅。

Hey, Dream listeners. There's now an ad free version of the Dream that you can subscribe to, the Dream Plus at the dream.supercast.com. $5 a month gets you every single episode of this show with zero ads, which you love and I love, and we're hoping that this will help us pay the bills. And the main goal being that we can keep making the show. Go to the dream.supercast.com and subscribe.

为了方便，我们已经把链接放在节目描述中。只需向下看这一集的下方，那里写着dream.supercast.com，点击即可。非常简单。您还会获得很多额外内容。

To make it easy, we have put the link in the show description. Just look down underneath this episode. It says the dream.supercast.com, and just click on that. Easy peasy. You're gonna get a lot of extra stuff too.

我们正在努力完善这些。另一件您需要做的事是，请订阅我们的Instagram。账号是thedreamx，字母x，Jane Marie。在那里见。我是Jane Marie，这里是the dream。

We're working on all that. Another thing you need to do, please subscribe to our Instagram. It's the dream x, the letter x, Jane Marie. See you over there. I'm Jane Marie, and this is the dream.

今天，您将听到我过去一年一直在制作的一集节目，全部关于堕胎。首先，我需要提醒您，您可以无广告收听这一集。我们在thedream.supercast.com提供Dream Plus订阅，每月5美元，没有广告。

Today, you're gonna hear an episode of a show I've been working on for the last year, all about abortion. First, I need to remind you, you can listen to this episode with zero ads. We have a Dream Plus subscription over at thedream.supercast.com. It's $5. No ads.

好吗？一个广告都没有。零。完全没有。一点都没有。

Okay? None. Zip. Zilch. Zero.

总之，我过去一年一直在制作这个节目。我们有一整季的内容，新一季，也就是第二季，本周刚刚推出。它叫做Outlawed，由北卡罗来纳州的两位医生主持。节目旨在为您提供真实的事实和信息，让您武装自己，无论您站在哪一边，如果您需要参与讨论、争论，或者写邮件表达您的观点。

Anyway, I've been working on this show for the last year. We have a whole season out, and the new season, the second season just launched this week. It's called Outlawed, and it's hosted by two doctors out of North Carolina. And it's all about trying to get you the real facts and information so that you are armed with them. If you ever have to get in a discussion or an argument or, you know, write an email to somebody expressing your opinions no matter what side you're on.

我们只是想把这些事实公之于众。

We just wanted to get the facts out there.

我是Bev Gray。我是一名妇产科医生和复杂家庭规划师，这意味着我是提供早孕护理的专家，包括流产护理、堕胎护理、异位妊娠治疗。我还为那些有很多医疗疾病、可能有复杂医疗需求的人提供避孕服务。所以这算是工作的一部分。我也做很多普通的妇产科工作。

I'm Bev Gray. I'm an OB GYN and a complex family planner, which means that I am an expert in providing early pregnancy care, and that includes miscarriage care, abortion care, treatment of ectopic pregnancies. I'll also provide contraception for people who have a lot of medical illnesses that may have complex medical needs. So that's like kind of the work thing. I also do like a lot of just general OBGYN.

我在产房工作，帮助分娩，迎接新生命来到这个世界，并在诊所看诊。所以我做的事情非常多样化。

I work on labor and delivery and help deliver babies and bring life into the world and see patients in the office. So it's a a wide variety of things that I do.

好的。Jonas？

Okay. Jonas?

是的。我是乔纳斯·斯沃茨。我也是一名妇产科医生和复杂家庭规划师。从临床角度来看，我做的很多工作与贝芙相同，但我比她做更多研究。所以我每周花在临床工作上的时间较少。

Yeah. I'm Jonas Swartz. I'm also an OBGYN and a complex family planner. And so from a clinical standpoint, I do a lot of the same things that Bev does, but, I do more research than Bev does. And so the clinical stuff that I do takes up less of my week.

在我的研究中，我关注健康差异，特别是孕期护理的可及性、避孕措施的可及性以及堕胎服务的可及性。我特别研究像医疗补助这样的公共保险项目如何可能改变人们获得这些服务的途径。然后当他们无法获得这些服务时，这对他们的生活意味着什么？

And in my research, I'm interested in health disparities and in particular in access to care during pregnancy, access to contraception, and access to abortion. And I particularly study how public insurance programs like Medicaid may change people's access to those services. And then when they don't have access to those services, what does that mean for their lives?

是的。我当时正在向我的朋友兼同事解释，提供堕胎护理的人们正在经历非常快速且剧烈的变化，特别是那些居住在有触发禁令州的医生——这意味着多布斯案之后，他们的州立即实施了严格的堕胎禁令。所以事情发展得很快。我们很难追踪北卡罗来纳州的情况，更不用说整个东南部了。这感觉像是一个迫切需要开始倾听人们故事的紧急时刻。

Yeah. So I was explaining to to my friend and colleague that people who were providing abortion care were seeing dramatic changes very quickly, especially people who lived in states where there was a trigger ban in place, which meant after Dobbs, immediately they had a strict ban on abortion care in their state. And so things were happening quickly. It was hard for us to keep track of what was happening in North Carolina, much less what was happening in the Southeast. And it felt sort of like this urgent moment to start listening to people's story.

而多布斯案就是推翻罗伊案的那个判决

And Dobbs is the decision that overturned Roe

诉韦德案，为我这样的和其他普通听众解释一下。

v Wade for people like me and other ding dong listeners out there.

它将决定权交还给了各州。对吧？所以它让各个州自行决定堕胎是否合法。于是我们就想，你知道，人们会来找我们，他们说你们很擅长解释这些事情。所以我们觉得，也许我们可以让更多人了解这些。

And it put the decision back to the states. Right? So it it let individual states decide whether or not abortion could be legal. And so we were like, you know, people would come up to us, and they were like, you guys are pretty good at explaining these things. And so we were like, well, maybe we could tell more people about it.

所以这似乎是一个我们可以实现这一目标的格式。

And so this seemed like a format that we could do that.

而且我们完全没概念。你知道，我们也是外行。对吧？所以我们想，哦，对啊。我们就做个播客吧。

And we had no idea. You know, we're idiots too. Right? And so we think, oh, yeah. We'll just make a podcast.

没什么大不了的。但是，我们完全不知道如何将音频转换成一种，首先，从音质角度人们会愿意听的格式，其次，如何构建一个故事，让那些可能有兴趣点击订阅或什么的听众能够理解。

No big deal. But, like, we had no idea how you turn audio into a format that, a, people would wanna listen to, right, from a sound quality standpoint, but then, b, how you structure a story so that that it makes sense to listeners who maybe do are interested enough to to, you know, click on the feed or whatever.

是啊。你们教给我的远比我可能教给你们的要多。在做这个节目之前，我不知道自己对堕胎的了解如此之少，真的是非常少。我以为自己是个消息灵通的女权主义者，支持选择权的那种人。但是了解到你们的具体经历，你们对各州法律复杂性的理解，以及你们在北卡罗来纳州与这些法律的个人遭遇，

Yeah. Well, you guys taught me way more than I could have taught you. I didn't know I didn't know how little I knew about abortion before we made this show, and it was very little. Like, I thought I was, you know, a well informed feminist, pro choice kind of person. But getting, like, your specific experience and your understanding of the intricacies of the laws in various states, and your personal run ins with these laws in North Carolina,

而且你能接触到堕胎议题中那些真正重要的人物，这对我来说真的非常吸引人。我觉得这非常充实，并且现在依然如此。

and just the access you also have to, like, really important people in the, abortion fight was really fascinating for me. I I felt like it was very enriching and continues to be so.

是的，确实如此。比如，还有很多故事我们尚未讲述。我认为最棒的一点是，大多数情况下，我们可以邀请几乎任何人来谈论这个话题，他们都会答应。我觉得人们害怕与自己认识和爱的人进行这些对话，因为这是一个如此有争议的话题。

Yeah. It does. Like, there's still so many stories we haven't told. And I think one of the great things is, for the most part, we can ask most anyone to talk to us about this, and they say yes. And I think people are afraid to have these conversations with people that they know and love because they're afraid of it's such a contentious topic.

人们不一定想进行这些对话。但如果他们拥有进行这些对话的工具和知识，这些对话可以非常有成果。我们的目标之一是帮助破除一些关于堕胎护理的非常普遍和广泛流传的误解。比如，关于“产后堕胎”的整个概念，我觉得我们在第一季中很好地讨论了这个问题，并真正理解了那些在怀孕后期决定堕胎的人这样做是因为他们获得了关于自身健康和妊娠的新信息。我认为那种认为人们对自己的医疗保健做出轻率决定的想法并不符合现实。那不是我曾经护理过的患者。

People don't necessarily wanna have conversations. But if they have the tools to have these conversations and the knowledge to have these conversations, they can be really fruitful. One of our goals is to help myth bust some of these very common and pervasive myths that are out there about abortion care. And, you know, like the whole idea of abortion after birth, like, I feel like we did a really good job of talking about that issue in the first season and really understanding that that people that are making decisions to have abortion later in pregnancy are doing so because they have new information about their health, their pregnancy, and that, you know, I think this idea that people are making flippant decisions about their health care It's just not the reality. That's not those aren't the patients that I've ever cared for.

是的。关于堕胎也存在大量的内化污名。所以，即使当你考虑与那些你不确定其观点的观众交谈时，通常，堕胎是一个人们可能觉得是禁忌的话题，不会主动提起。但现实是，美国大多数人都支持获得堕胎护理的权利，并且对此看法相似。但有一大群人可能对谈论此感到不适，然而他们的观点是相近的。

Yeah. The there's so much internalized stigma about abortion too. And so even when you're thinking about talking with people who are an audience who you are unsure of their views, oftentimes, you know, abortion is this topic that maybe you'd people feel is taboo and won't bring up with them. But the reality is that, you know, the majority of people in The United States support access to abortion care and are of similar minds about it. But and a large group of people may feel uncomfortable talking about that, but they are of similar minds.

我认为我们节目的部分目标是，我们认为谈论它很重要，对吧？就像，你需要那种公开的支持表达来推动进展。我想到那个《周六夜现场》塞西莉·斯特朗（Cecily Strong）的小品，她打扮成小丑谈论堕胎，她说她在称女性为小丑，并说这些小丑根本不会谈论自己的堕胎，直到晚年在一个晚宴上。然后，你知道，结果发现房间里的许多人都有过堕胎经历。我认为那是相当普遍的——我们知道堕胎是常见的。

And I think part of our goal in the show is that we think that talking about it is important, right? Like, you need that sort of public expression of support to move forward. I mean, I think of that that Saturday Night Live skit with Cecily Strong where she talks about how, you know, she's dressed up as a clown talking about abortion, and she talks about how the she's calling women clowns and saying that the clowns won't talk about their abortion at all until they're at a dinner party late in life. And then, you know, it turns out that many people in the room have had an abortion. And I think that that is a pretty common we know that abortion is common.

所以那实际上是一种相当普遍的经历，但却是一种我们隐藏起来的经历。嗯。人们彼此隐瞒，然后不谈论它。而这又助长了这些，你知道，恶劣的法律，因为缺乏这种公众支持的表达。所以我希望我们至少能帮助人们在与他人进行这些对话时感觉更自在一些。

And so that is actually a pretty common experience, but is an experience that we hide Mhmm. Where people hide from each other and then don't talk about it. And then that enables these, you know, heinous laws because there isn't this expression of public support. And so I hope that we can at least help people feel a little more comfortable approaching these conversations with someone.

那么，这是我们节目的一集。它叫做《Outlawed》（被禁止的）。你可以在任何地方找到它。我们这周刚刚推出了第二季，所以去订阅吧，等等。

So here is an episode of our show. It's called Outlawed. You can find it everywhere. We just launched the second season this week, so go subscribe, etcetera.

Bev，你听到了吗？我们...我们在录音吗？

Bev, have you heard that are we are we recording?

当然。我们已经录了，大概，两分钟了。

Sure. We've been recording for, like, two minutes.

你看过皮特·布蒂吉格（Pete Buttigieg）的那个片段吗？他在福克斯新闻上谈论，我想是，所谓的“晚期堕胎”概念，他在那里有点质问采访者关于晚期堕胎的想法？

Have you seen that Pete Buttigieg clip of him talking about, I think on Fox News, about the, quote, unquote, late term abortion idea, where he sort of takes the the interviewer to task on the idea of a late term abortion?

是的。是的。所以，只是为了明确，只是为了明确，你是说你可以接受一个怀孕已进入晚期的女性决定终止妊娠？听着。

Yeah. Yeah. So so just to be clear just to be clear, you're saying that you would be okay with a woman well into the third trimester deciding to abort her pregnancy? Look.

这些假设情景通常是为了引发

These hypotheticals are usually set up in order to provoke a

强烈的情绪反应，首先好吧。所以这不是假设。每年有六千名女性在妊娠晚期进行流产。

strong emotional straight in first alright. So it's not hypothetical. There are six thousand women a year who get abortions in the third trimester.

占所有案例的不到百分之一。

Representing less than one percent of cases.

我们自己。

Ourselves in.

让我们设身处地想一想。让我们站在处于那种情境的女性的角度。如果怀孕已经到了那么晚的阶段，那几乎意味着你原本是期待能足月分娩的。我们谈论的是那些可能已经选好了名字、买好了婴儿床的女性，是那些家庭随后得到了他们一生中最毁灭性的医疗消息——关于母亲健康或生命的某些问题，迫使他们做出一个不可能、难以想象的抉择。关键是，尽管这个选择如此可怕，那位女性、那个家庭可能会寻求精神指导，可能会寻求医疗建议，但这个决定不会因为政府规定了应该如何做出而变得在医学上或道德上更好。

Let's take ourselves in. So let's put ourselves in the shoes of a woman in that situation. If it's that late in your pregnancy, that means almost by definition you've been expecting to carry it to term. We're talking about women who have perhaps chosen a name, women who have purchased a crib, families that then get the most devastating medical news of their lifetime, something about the health or the life of the mother that forces them to make an impossible, unthinkable choice. And the bottom line is, as horrible as that choice is, that woman, that family may seek spiritual guidance, they may seek medical guidance, but that decision is not going to be made any better, medically or morally, because the government is dictating how that decision should be made.

好的。我认为我喜欢他这番讨论的地方在于，他非常清晰地能够反驳那些关于孕晚期流产的错误信息，并且能够用人们能理解的语言清楚地传达，为什么有一小部分人需要对他们的医疗保健做出非常深思熟虑的决定，并且他们拥有这样做的自由是重要的。

All right. So I think what I love about his discussion is that he's very clearly able to contend against this misinformation that's out there about abortions later in pregnancy and is able to clearly convey in language that's understandable to people why there are a small number of people that need to make a very thoughtful decision about their health care, and it's important for them to have the freedom to do so.

是的。而且我喜欢他确实关注了数字。应该指出的是，这些数字可能并不准确。有些州不向CDC或其他来源报告流产数据，而这些地方恰好是一些晚期流产发生的地方。自多布斯案裁决以来，流产情况也发生了变化，一些州取消了之前存在的孕周限制。

Yeah. And I like that he does focus on the numbers. It should be noted that the numbers may not be accurate. There are some states that don't report abortions to the CDC or to other sources, and that those happen to be places where some later abortions take place. There also has been a shift in abortion since the Dobbs decision, with some states removing gestational age limit restrictions that were present before.

因此，因为人们无法在他们所在地获得护理，他们可能需要在妊娠晚期去其他地方寻求护理。我们知道，禁止流产的后果之一是迫使人们在妊娠晚期进行流产。即便如此，与发生的大多数流产相比，这些流产的数量是如此之少。我们知道百分之九十的流产发生在妊娠早期，而随着孕周增加，发生在孕早期之后的流产数量会下降。所以，当你限制孕晚期流产，或谈论孕晚期流产以限制它时，你实际上让百分之九十七、九十八的人更难在妊娠早期获得他们所需的流产。

And so because people can't access care where they are, they may need to access care later in pregnancy, in other places. We know that one of the effects of abortion bans is that they push people to have abortions later in pregnancy. Even so, these are so few abortions compared to the majority of abortions that occur. We know that ninety percent of abortions are occurring in the first trimester, and the number of abortions that occur beyond the first trimester goes down as you increase in gestational age. So when you are restricting abortion later in pregnancy, or talking about abortion later in pregnancy, in order to restrict that abortion, you are making it much harder for ninety seven, ninety eight percent of people to have the abortion that they need earlier in pregnancy.

而且这也暗示着，无论人们处于怀孕的哪个阶段，他们都没有做出深思熟虑的决定，你需要监督他们的决策过程，而实际上这些人正在做出非常深思熟虑的决定。你知道，在我们看到的一些案例中，患者希望对自己、对家人、对他们怀着的胎儿抱有同情心，特别是如果他们正在处理一个非常困难的诊断，或者关于怀孕的新信息，他们正在努力应对。断言他们不深思熟虑、不富有同情心、不道德，这根本不是我们在照顾这类人群时看到的现实。

And it's also insinuating that people, no matter where they're at in their pregnancy, are not making thoughtful decisions and that you need to oversee their decision making when these folks are making very thoughtful decisions. And you know, some of the cases that we've seen, you know, patients are wanting to be compassionate for themselves, for their families, for the pregnancy that they're carrying, especially if there's, you know, a really difficult diagnosis that they're dealing with or new information about their pregnancy that they're they're grappling with. And the assertion that they're not being thoughtful, that they're not being compassionate, that they're being unethical. It's just that's not the reality of what we see when we care for folks like this.

这种错误信息的另一个威力在于，它让人们更容易在脑海中形成某种形象并加以反对，对吗？比如你可以想象孕晚期胎儿的样子，越多人将那个形象与堕胎等同起来，他们就越难支持堕胎权。但这根本不是大多数堕胎手术的现实情况。然而，这却是反堕胎团体非常有说服力的论点，因为他们可以指着那个说：看啊，正在发生这种事，你难道不想阻止吗？

The other power of this misinformation is that it takes something that feels easier to put in your head and object to, right? Like you can think of a picture of what a baby looks like later in pregnancy, and the more people equate that picture with abortion, the harder it is for them to support abortion. But that just isn't the reality of what most abortions are. Yet, it is a very powerful talking point for anti abortion groups, because they can point to that and say, Oh, well, look what's happening. You don't want to prevent that.

但这完全偏离了重点。我是说，这就是皮特市长的观点。没错。所以我很期待听到这场对话。医生。

And it's really just beside the point. I mean, that's Mayor Pete's point. Yeah. So I'm excited to hear this conversation. Doctor.

珍妮·V·维森西奥，确实是这方面的专家

Jenny V. Vicencio, is really an expert in

在很多领域都是。

So many things.

确实在很多领域，但特别是在倡导、理解和情境化堕胎护理方面。

So many things, but, advocacy, understanding and contextualizing abortion care.

正如你将听到的，她的部分使命是去污名化所谓的'晚期堕胎'概念。我们希望这能帮助你理解这个人们热衷提及的敏感话题，并让你对真实生活中发生的情况有更全面的认识。

It's part of her mission, as you'll hear, to destigmatize the idea of, quote, unquote, late term abortion. And we're hopeful that this can help you gain understanding about this very hot button that people like to bring up and give you some some perspective about what happens in real people's lives.

我是珍妮·维亚·维森西奥。我的人称代词是她/她们，是的，我是第一代妇产科和复杂计划生育专家。我提供全孕期堕胎护理，这意味着我有时整晚接生婴儿，有时白天为需要的人提供堕胎护理。我认为那些想要禁止堕胎的人散播的谣言——比如我们听到的产后堕胎等说辞——都是对复杂医学深刻且有目的的误解。

My name is Jenny Via Vicencio. My pronouns are she, her, e, yeah, and I'm a first generation OB GYN and complex family planning specialist. I provide all trimester abortion care. What that means is that I sometimes spend my nights delivering babies all night long, and sometimes I spend my days offering and providing abortion care for folks. I think the myths that are coming out of those people that want to ban abortion, there's lots of them that are out there that we're hearing about after birth abortion and all of this rhetoric that's happening is a really deep and purposeful misunderstanding of complex medicine.

我们并没有在外杀害新生儿，也没有为怀孕40周原本想要孩子却突然改变主意的人提供堕胎服务。这根本不是现实。公开谈论这些确实令人紧张甚至害怕。当我决定提供全孕期堕胎服务并开始公开讨论时，我和丈夫、家人都谈过，因为根据历史经验，这确实会增加遭遇风险的可能性。

So we are not out there taking newborns and killing them. We are not offering abortion care to people rolling in at 40 who thought they were gonna have a baby and suddenly decide that they don't want to. That's just not a reality. It definitely is a little nerve racking and at times scary to be talking out loud about this. I know that when I decided that I was going to provide abortion throughout pregnancy as well as start talking about it, I had a conversation with my husband, I had a conversation with my family because it absolutely, based on history, increases your risk of things happening.

我已经过着不把邮件寄到家里的生活，使用邮政信箱，上下班走不同路线，采取各种措施保护自己免受骚扰，但这工作增加了风险。然而这是我被召唤去做的事业。我出于对患者和社区的道德责任从事这项工作，而且我从来无法对自己所做之事保持沉默。

I already live, where I don't get mail at my house. I have a PO box. I take different routes to work and back, doing things to protect myself from harassment, but this increases that risk. But this is the work that I am called to do. I do this work, out of a moral duty to my patients and to my community, and I have never been able to not talk about what I do.

关于我，很重要的一点是：我其实成长于极度保守的环境，直到二十多岁前期都还是反选择权者。作为第一代拉丁裔，我在非常天主教和保守的氛围中长大，深受天主教社会正义价值观影响——握着人们的手，为他们洗脚，无论需要什么都出现支持。实际上我的价值观现在完全一样，只是表达方式不同。但作为天主教信仰的一部分，我曾深入参与反堕胎运动，那曾是我身份认同的重要组成，青年团体时期我们为危机怀孕中心做志愿者，写信鼓励人们继续妊娠，组装物资包帮助她们。

And I think one thing that's really important to know about me is that I actually grew up extremely conservative, and I was anti choice well into my early twenties. I, am first generation Latina, and I grew up, very Catholic and very, very conservative, very called by a lot of the social justice values of Catholicism, holding people's hands, washing their feet, you know, showing up for them no matter what they need. It's actually my values are exactly the same now, just express them differently. But, as part of that Catholicism, I got involved in the pro life movement and it was a huge part of my identity, I mean a huge part. So youth groups, we volunteered for crisis pregnancy centers, we would write letters to people, we, put kits together for people who would continue their pregnancies.

那看起来也包含了很多的谈话和宣传。我在高中时，高三那年，实际上写了一篇文章并在全校面前朗读。我上的是天主教女子学校，但我写了一篇题为《当女人选择发生性行为时，她的选择就结束了》的文章。我把这篇文章读给了整个高中听。所以我认为，作为反堕胎运动的一部分，我是在做正确的事——我这么说是因为我当时是这么认同的——我被告诉堕胎对女性有害。

It also looked like a lot of, talking and evangelism really. I, in high school, my senior year in high school, actually wrote a essay and read it to my entire high school. I was in Catholic, all girl Catholic school, but I wrote an essay entitled A Woman's Choice Ends When She Chooses to Have Sex. And I read that to my entire high school. So what I thought I was doing as part of being part of the pro life movement, and that's I say it in that way because that's the way I identified, I was told that abortion was detrimental to women.

他们说这很危险。他们说从心理健康的角度来看，这会伤害她们。所有我们现在听到的谣言，他们并没有创新什么，完全是一样的。显然，他们说这是在杀害婴儿，是在破坏家庭，还说如果这些女人更明白事理，她们就绝不会选择堕胎。

They said it was dangerous. They said that it would hurt them from a mental health perspective. All of the myths that we hear now, it's they're not reinventing any wheels. It's exactly the same. And obviously, they said that it was killing babies, and it was destroying families, and that if these women just knew better, they just knew better, they wouldn't ever have an abortion.

作为一个非常关心正义和社区的人，我觉得自己被召唤去反对如此可怕的事情。我认为还有宗教方面，信仰的加持，以及被告知这是一种罪。我的意思是，我第一次听说堕胎是在二年级的CCD课上。天主教徒会明白我在说什么。他们当时在讨论不同类型的罪，小罪和大罪，而大罪的例子就是堕胎——在二年级。

And as someone who cared very deeply about justice and about my community, I was I felt called to rally against something that was so horrible. I think also the religious aspect, the faith on top of it and being told that it was a sin. I mean, first time that I ever heard about abortion was in second grade in CCD. Those of you who are Catholic will know what I'm talking about. And they were talking about the different types of sins, venial and mortal sins, and the example of a mortal sin was an abortion in second grade.

那是我第一次听说它。所以它就像一条贯穿线，表明那是一件坏事，而我感觉被引导着，觉得这是一种帮助他人的方式。另一层叠加其上的是，我参与了所谓的纯洁运动，我戴了承诺戒指，立下了守贞誓言。我实际上从13岁到19岁有一个男朋友，他后来成了我的未婚夫。18岁时我们订婚了。我们没有发生性关系。

That's the first time I heard about it. And so it had been this, like, through line in terms of, like, that is a bad thing, and this felt I was guided towards it felt like, a way for me to be helping. The other piece that was, kind of layered on top of that is that I was part of the kind of purity movement, I had a promise ring, I took a virginity pledge, I actually had a boyfriend from 13 to 19, he became my fiancee. At 18, we got engaged. We did not have sex.

这也是我身份认同中非常重要的一部分，而这种对性的拒绝确实叠加并加强了我对反堕胎的投入。以我当时的处境，很容易就会想：‘只要不发生性行为就行了。’ 无论这是对性的拒绝还是以性为中心，我认为两者几乎兼而有之。对吧？就像是把它放在最前沿和中心，但确保它在那里，以便你能一直将其推开。

That was a very big part of my identity as well, and that really, the rejection of sexuality really kind of overlaid and intensified the dedication to being pro life. It was very easy for me in the position that I was in to think, Just don't have sex. Whether it's a rejection of sexuality or a centering of sexuality, I think it's almost both. Right? It's like putting it front and center but making sure that it's front and center so that you can punch it away all of the time.

对吧？你不被允许看它。你不被允许谈论它。你不被允许接触它，但你最好让它保持在最前沿和中心，以确保你永远不会触碰或涉足它。所以我认为这几乎是两者兼具。

Right? You're not allowed to look at it. You're not allowed to talk about it. You're not allowed to engage with it, but you better keep it front and center so that you make sure that you don't ever touch it or engage with it. And so I think it's almost both.

最终，这也是我离开教会的原因之一。在我二十岁出头的时候，有几个不同的原因，包括一些争议，以及天主教教会中正在发生的非常、非常明显的性虐待，这让我非常难受。但当我逐渐步入成年女性阶段时，我对此感到非常挣扎，对我来说这就像一种处女/恐怖二分法之类的事情正在发生。所以，这实际上是我离开的原因之一，并且我有好几年都没有真正思考过堕胎问题，我只是把它放在一边。然后我去了医学院。在医学院，我遇到了我的第一个无神论者，他们头上并没有长角，所以，你知道，我在政治上也有点进化了，有一段时间我只是没有真正思考过堕胎问题，这对我来说很奇怪，因为它曾经是我生活中如此重要的一部分。

And ultimately, that was one of the reasons why I left, the church. There were a couple of different reasons in my early 20s, but, including some of the controversy and very, very clear obvious sexual abuse that was happening in the Catholic church that was very hard for me. But as I was coming into my womanhood, I was having a really hard time with that, what for me felt like a virgin horror dichotomy type thing that was happening and so, that was one of the reasons that I actually left and I didn't really think about abortion for several years, I kind of just like put it aside. And then I went to med school. In med school I met my first atheist and they didn't have horns growing out of their head and so, you know, I also was politically kind of evolving a little bit and I just didn't really think about abortion for a while, which was so weird for me because it had been such a huge part of my life for so long.

我的意思是，以前几乎每天都会举着写着‘如果你热爱生命就按喇叭’之类的标语。当然，我参与的那种反堕胎 activism 比你现在看到的一些少一些仇恨。它更多的是‘我们爱你，爱你的宝宝’这类东西，这本身也是充满恨意的，但少了一些地狱之火和硫磺味，更多的是‘过来，我会抱住你’，这让我感觉很好。这感觉符合我认为自己在做的事情。我在住院医师期间，在个人和专业上都进化了不少，但真正让我下定决心照顾人们并提供堕胎护理的是，我当时正在照顾一位病人。

Mean like every day it was like hold signs that say honk if you love life and all of those sorts of things. Certainly the type of, pro life activism I was involved in was less hateful than some that you see. It was much more we love you, love your baby type stuff, which in of itself is hateful, but it was less, hellfire and brimstone and more come over here, I will hold you, which felt good to me. It felt in line with what I thought I was doing. I, in residency, had evolved a fair amount both personally and professionally, but what really kind of fixed my mind on taking care of folks and providing abortion care was I was taking care of a patient.

我当时上夜班。我是第二年住院医师，还是个菜鸟医生。一位非常年轻的女士正在接受堕胎，是因致命胎儿异常而进行的引产堕胎。所以她的妊娠没有任何继续的可能。我的主治医生，也就是我的主管，告诉我：‘我不做堕胎手术，我不相信这个，所以别叫我。’

I was on the night shift. I was a second year resident, is still a baby doctor. And this very young woman was having an abortion, an induction abortion for a lethal fetal anomaly. So there was no chance for her pregnancy to continue. And my attending told me, who's my supervisor, told me, I don't do abortions, don't believe in them, so don't call me.

‘我早上会签文件。’ 所以我完全是一个人，我的病人被抛弃给了一个从未参与过此事的人。那时我已经能比较自如地参与其中了，幸运的是一切顺利，但这位年轻女士问是否可以抱抱她的宝宝，我非常紧张，因为，你知道，宝宝的样子完全出乎意料，因为异常太严重了，所以我尽我所能把它包好。那时是凌晨三点，整个房间都很暗，她的家人也在那里，我把宝宝递给她，这位刚刚选择终止妊娠的年轻女士低头看着说：‘看我的女儿多漂亮。’ 正是在那个凌晨三点的召唤时刻，我决定这就是我践行我毕生所追求的正义的方式——为像她这样的人挺身而出，确保她再也不会被抛弃，任何像她一样的人也再不会被抛弃。

I'll sign the papers in the morning. And so I was completely alone and my patient was abandoned with someone who had never participated in this before. I was comfortable at this point participating and fortunately everything went well, but this young woman asked if she could hold her baby, and I was very nervous because, you know, the baby really did not look anything like you would expect it to because it was so anomalous, so I did the best that I could to wrap it up. And it was three in the morning and the whole room was dark and her family was there and I handed it to her, and this young woman who had just chosen to enter pregnancy looks down and she goes look at how beautiful my daughter is. And it really was in that moment at like that 3AM call that I decided that this was how I actually enacted the justice that I had been so dedicated to my entire life, was showing up for people like her and making sure that she was never abandoned again, and anyone like her was never abandoned again.

从那时起，我便致力于提供全面的医疗服务，确保自己不再处于排斥或评判他人的立场。我只负责接纳人们的本来面貌，并尽我所能关怀他们。最终让我醒悟的是，我意识到自己曾经多么排斥他人。在我的宗教经历中，总觉得自己因遵守所有教规而与他人不同。这种心态在个人基本层面上变得极其疲惫和艰难。

And ever since then, I've dedicated my life to providing comprehensive care and making sure that I am not in the position of othering or in judging. I'm only in the position of receiving people as they are and caring for them to the best of my ability. What ultimately did it for me was I realized how much I was othering people. For me, in my experience with religion, it was very much like, I am different than you because I follow all of these rules. And that started to be really exhausting and really, really tough just on a, like, basic personal level.

显然我无法始终达到那些标准，这感觉糟透了。于是我开始思考：我必须这样生活吗？我开始探索自己真正的价值观，比如正义、社群和慈悲——而不是宗教外衣下的这些概念。我意识到，如果接纳而非排斥他人，我能更清晰、更真实地践行这些价值观。我经历过几次个人事件。

And I was obviously not able to meet up, you know, meet those standards all of the time, which felt really crappy. So I started thinking like, do I have to live this way? And exploring my actual values, things like justice and community and compassion, rather than them under the veil of my religion. And I realized that I could be expressing those values in a much more articulate, in a much more authentic way if I were receiving people and not othering them. You know, I had a couple of personal experiences.

比如第一次发生性行为后，我不得不服用紧急避孕药。当时我仍深受宗教观念束缚，必须去计划生育诊所（那时还不是非处方药）。我记得穿过抗议人群时，他们朝我尖叫着难听的话。当时我脑子里想的是：我和你们是同一类人。

I know, the first time that I, had sex, I ended up needing plan B. And, this was I was still kind of in the throes of religion and, I had to go to a family planning clinic. This was before it was over the counter. And I remember passing through all of these protesters and they were screaming horrible things at me. And I remember thinking in my head, I'm one of you.

我信仰你们所信的，只是来买紧急避孕药，不是来堕胎的。我甚至不生气，还下意识帮他们找借口，几乎站到他们的阵营。但当我走进诊所，看着周围的人群时，再也无法像过去那样划分界限。

I believe what you do. I'm just here for, you know, plan B. I'm not here for an abortion. It was my fiance making all of these sort of excuses and not even really being mad at them, right, just trying to almost be on their side of the line. And then when I got into the clinic, I sat down and I looked at everybody else and I couldn't do the othering that I was used to doing.

我无法分辨谁是来堕胎、避孕还是像我一样买紧急避孕药的。真希望19岁的我当时就能顿悟，虽然实际花了更长时间，但那个瞬间始终烙印在我心里：当自己处于被审视的立场时，这种感觉太糟糕了。这让我决心不再重复这种行为。正如我所说，从15岁到22岁作为极端反对堕胎的天主教徒，再到如今成为全孕期堕胎服务提供者，我的核心价值观从未改变。

I couldn't tell who was there for an abortion or contraception or plan B like me, right? And I wish in my, like, 19 year old brain that had been the thing that triggered it. It took a lot longer after that, but it definitely is something that sticks with me where I was like, now that I'm in this position and other people are looking at me that way, this feels really bad. And it really made me think about not wanting to continue to do that. And as I mentioned before, my values when I was 15 as a super hardcore pro life Catholic, when I was 22, super hardcore pro life Catholic, and now as an all trimester abortion provider, my values are exactly the same values.

价值观始终如一，只是现在我能以更真实的方式表达和实践。我提供直至妊娠34周的堕胎服务，全国常规提供此类服务的人可能不足10位。医院或许有零星案例，但作为常规服务者凤毛麟角，提供晚期堕胎服务的从业者应该不超过30人。

They have not changed. I just articulate them and express them in what feels like a much more authentic way now. I provide abortion care up to thirty four weeks in pregnancy, and I think that there's probably less than 10 of us that provide that level of care routinely. There are certainly more that may do it, at the hospital, kind of a one off, but as a routine care, there's not many people at all. I would say folks that are providing later abortion, it's probably less than thirty.

有趣的是'晚期堕胎'这个相对术语——通常指妊娠中后期，但不同人有不同理解。有患者认为14周就算晚期。我们必须承认每个人对这个术语的认知都不同，这与堕胎护理存在的污名化紧密相关。

So what's interesting is the term later abortion, which is typically what we like to use, our abortion later in pregnancy, is a really relative term. It means very different things to very different people. Typically what we mean is later in the second trimester or into the third trimester, but I've had patients that think that a fourteen week abortion is a late abortion. And I think that it's really important that we acknowledge that everyone has a different relationship with this term late. It's very connected to the stigma that exists as it relates to abortion care.

我所说的晚期堕胎通常指26周以上。这些患者是堕胎护理中最边缘的群体，全美仅有少数几家机构能提供服务。他们堪称寻求堕胎服务中最受污名化的群体。关于晚期堕胎存在大量错误信息，我理解这种担忧。

When I talk about later abortion, I'm typically talking about, twenty six weeks and above. And those are the folks that are the most marginalized in abortion care. They only have a handful of places that they can go in the entire country to be able to get abortion care. And I think that they are some of the most stigmatized, among the most stigmatized folks that are seeking abortion care. There's a lot of misinformation out there about later abortion and I understand that.

人们普遍关注堕胎护理的道德伦理边界。我的部分职责就是公开讨论此事，让大众知道：需要妊娠晚期堕胎服务的人，同样是在我们共有的道德伦理框架内做出选择。通过与患者交谈、陪伴他们、见证他们的深思熟虑，我认识到这虽然特殊但并非错误。我既看到妊娠的潜力，更尊重妊娠主体——当她们告诉我继续妊娠将导致恶果时，我深信不疑。我常照料那些怀着期待却需要堕胎的人。

I think that people worry about and think about the moral and ethical guardrails around abortion care just generally. And so, part of my job is to talk about it openly and to let people know that the folks that need abortion care later in pregnancy are doing so within the constructs of the moral and ethical guardrails that we all have. And for me, it was all about talking to these patients, being with them, holding them, seeing how thoughtful and careful they are, they also recognize that it's different and that doesn't mean that it's wrong. I also, for me, recognize the potential of that pregnancy and also deeply respect that the person who is the steward of that pregnancy, that potential life, is telling me that that is not going to end well if they have to continue it. I take care of people all the time that are excited about their pregnancies and know that they need an abortion.

因此这项工作至关重要，我要让患者知道至少有人提供选择权，即使她们最终未选择堕胎。常有人问为何需要妊娠晚期（如24周后）堕胎，我通常从两个维度解释（稍后举例）：一是妊娠期间获得新信息（母体或胎儿健康诊断），二是生活出现新变故。

And so it's very important for me to be doing work like this and to be showing up for patients so at least they have somebody who's giving them the option, even if they don't end up having an abortion. It's a very common question to ask why someone might need an abortion later in pregnancy, maybe after twenty four weeks. And the way that I usually break that down, and I'll give some examples in a moment, but the way I usually break that down is either they received new information in their pregnancy. So that means they received a health diagnosis either for themselves or for the fetus. They had a new circumstance in their life.

他们的财务状况发生了变化，家庭状况发生了巨大变化，这影响了他们对怀孕的看法。或者他们是在较晚的时候才诊断出怀孕。我们没有意识到，很多时候人们直到怀孕后期才发现自己怀孕了。

Their financial situation changed, their family situation changed drastically that impacted how they were viewing their pregnancy. Or they had a late diagnosis of pregnancy. We don't acknowledge how, oftentimes people are not finding out that they're pregnant, until later on in their pregnancy.

珍妮提出了几个重要观点。我认为从她所说的内容中我得到的一点是，人们在怀孕后期做出的关于怀孕的决定与孕早期做出的决定是相似的。他们有各种各样的原因。他们可能获得了新的信息，但他们需要拥有在那个时刻做出决定的自由。

Jenny brings up a couple of important points. And I think one of the things I take from what she's talking about is that the types of decisions that people are making about their pregnancy are similar later in pregnancy to those decisions in the first trimester when people are making the first trimester. They They have a variety of reasons. They may get new information, but they need to have the freedom to make the decision in that moment.

没错，我们一直在照顾那些获得关于怀孕新信息的患者。她谈到了其中一些患者，那些可能通过新的超声波检查获得毁灭性诊断信息的人，这些新信息改变了他们继续这次怀孕的意愿。

Right, and we care for patients all the time that are receiving new information about their pregnancy. And she talks about some of those patients, the ones who maybe get new ultra ultrasound information about a devastating diagnosis, something new that changes how they wanna continue this pregnancy.

我认为反堕胎团体和反堕胎政客做的最有问题的事情之一是他们混淆了两件不同的事情。一种类型的护理是堕胎护理，即在分娩前终止妊娠。另一种类型的护理是可能在分娩后提供的姑息护理，这不是堕胎。你能谈谈人们是如何做出这个决定的，以及这具体意味着什么吗？

And I think one of the most problematic things that anti abortion groups and anti abortion politicians do is they mix two different things. So one type of care is abortion care, and that's ending a pregnancy before birth. Another type of care is palliative care that may occur after delivery, which is not an abortion. Can you talk about how people come to that decision and what exactly that means?

没错，患者可能会收到关于致命出生缺陷的新信息，有些人决定寻求堕胎护理，但其他人决定继续怀孕并经历分娩过程。但一旦他们分娩，就会为孩子提供姑息护理或舒适护理。这更符合他们的价值观。我认为我们不应该指导人们选择哪种选项，而是应该支持他们，尊重他们的价值观，帮助他们获得对他们和家人最有意义的体验。所以当患者决定继续怀孕并分娩时，我们会为他们提供舒适护理或所谓的姑息护理。

Right, so patients may receive new information about lethal birth defect, and some decide to seek abortion care, but others decide to continue the pregnancy and have a birth experience. But once they give birth, offer palliative care or comfort care to their child. And that aligns more with their values. And I think it is not our place to direct people into what option they should choose, but rather to support them and what their values are to help them have the experience that makes the most sense for them and their families. And so when a patient decides to continue the pregnancy and give birth, we offer them comfort care or what's called palliative care.

珍妮在她的讨论中会更多地谈到这一点，但这与我们想到的在人们面临健康护理中的绝症诊断时提供的临终关怀非常相似。

And Jenny will talk a little bit more about this in her discussion, but that's very similar to end of life care that we think about when people are facing feudal diagnoses in their health care.

没错。而且这不是堕胎。没有人干预去夺取那个婴儿的生命，对吧？

Right. And it's not abortion. Right. There no one is intervening to take the life of that baby. Right?

他们不提供可能延长生命的痛苦或英雄式措施。把这两件事混为一谈是非常有害的，有人会称之为堕胎护理，因为这根本不是堕胎。

It's that they're not offering painful or heroic measures that may or may not prolong life. And it's really harmful that those two things are mixed that someone would call that abortion care, because it's just not abortion.

没错。有人杀死出生后婴儿的视觉形象，我的意思是，这确实具有煽动性，让人们认为有些事情超出了道德底线，但事实完全不是这样。这些情况对家庭来说是令人心碎和悲惨的。他们应该有自由在这些时刻选择对家人正确的事情。患者总是对寻求堕胎护理或接受姑息护理有各种感受和情绪反应。

Right. And the visual imagery of someone killing a baby after birth, I mean, that really isn't, you know, inflammatory and makes people think that there's something happening outside of those ethical guardrails, but that's not the case at all. And these these cases are heartbreaking and tragic for families. And they should have the freedom to choose what's right for their families in those moments. And patients all the time that have a variety of feelings and emotional reactions to either seeking abortion care or having palliative care.

但我们总是谈论，你知道，你是在做出一个富有同情心的决定，为了你的孩子不受苦。

But we always talk about how, you know, you're making a decision to be compassionate for your child so that your child won't suffer.

丽莎在德克萨斯州那期节目中也谈到，她预见到孩子未来将承受巨大痛苦的生活。这就是她决定堕胎的原因。是的，我也想明确说明，我们确实有时会为患者提供干预治疗。有些病症是可以治疗或尝试治疗的，但有些家庭并不想采取所有可能的手段。所以姑息治疗并非适合所有人，但这三种选择都应该摆在台面上供人考虑。

Lisa talked about that in the Texas episode as well about sort of envisioning that life for her child, which was with a great deal of suffering. And that that was why she decided to have an abortion. Yeah, I also think just to say it, I mean, we do offer people intervention sometimes, right? I mean, there are some conditions that can be treated or that can try and some families, you don't wanna do everything. So it's not right for everyone to do palliative care, but all three of those options need to be on the table.

现实情况是，在极少数地方，怀孕24周后堕胎才可能成为人们的选择。

And the reality is that there are very few places where the idea of an abortion after twenty four weeks, say, is an option that people can pursue.

没错。如果你查看德克萨斯州实施严格禁令后的数据，婴儿死亡率上升了约1万例，这个数字正好等同于患有致命出生缺陷的婴儿数量。因此有些患者被迫继续妊娠，明明知道自己的孩子无法获得任何有效救治。

Right. And if you look at the numbers out of Texas after their strict bans went into place, their infant mortality numbers went up by about ten thousand, which equates to the number of these infants born with these lethal birth defects. And so some patients are being forced into that decision of continuing a pregnancy, only to know that there's nothing that can be done for their child.

关于他们讨论的产后死亡问题，他们实际上是在利用那些极度痛苦和艰难的处境——当人们生下无法存活的婴儿时选择姑息治疗和舒适护理。在很多情况下，家庭选择不对深爱的孩子进行疯狂的高强度干预来勉强延长几天生命。这个概念在生命末期我们更熟悉，比如讨论是否要对89岁的祖母进行全面复苏：是否要进行会压断胸骨的心肺复苏、插入胸管和气管插管。作为美国人，我们对这类对话的接受度反而更高。

And in terms of the deaths after birth that they are talking about, what they are co opting are deeply, deeply painful and difficult situations where people are having babies that are not able to survive and are opting for palliative and comfort care. There are many scenarios in which families are choosing not to do intense, crazy intervention to try to get a couple more days for their child that they deeply love. We are familiar with this concept much later in life when we talk about whether or not we want a full resuscitation for our grandmother who is 89 years old. We want to do CPR where we crack her chest and put chest tubes in her and intubate her. We're a little bit more comfortable with those conversations as Americans.

这些对话在生命的两极其实非常相似。而那些想要禁止堕胎的人将其扭曲为谋杀，或声称这是常规操作，这种说法既可怕又恶心，完全违背事实。我的回应方式不是否认这些情况存在，而是指出实际情况与他们的描述截然不同，这种言论严重伤害了需要医疗帮助的人们。我曾在一家医院的急诊室接诊过一位年轻女性，她当时正经历严重的心理健康危机。

Those are very similar conversations in the extremes of life. And the way that people who want to ban abortion are co opting that and saying that it is murder or that we are doing it routinely is horrifying and disgusting and completely outside of what's actually happening. And so the way that I respond to that is not saying it doesn't happen. I say it's not happening at all the way that you are saying that it's happening and you are doing a deep disservice to the people who need that healthcare. I was consulted in the ER at one of the hospitals that I work at, and it was a very young woman who was having a serious mental health crisis.

她怀孕约22周，已经在急诊室滞留了三周—— literally住在急诊室里。原因是因为她怀孕而找不到精神科接收机构。他们请我去为她提供基础的产前护理。当我首次为孕妇建立产前护理时，如果对方刚得知怀孕消息，我会以中立态度讨论妊娠选择：你对这件事感受如何？是否想继续妊娠？考虑过这些选择吗？

And she was about twenty two weeks pregnant, and she had been boarding in the ED for three weeks, so literally living in the emergency room, and the reason is they could not find psychiatric placement for her because she is pregnant, and so they asked me to come down and do some level of prenatal care for her. And what I do when I'm initiating prenatal care, if it's the first time that I'm meeting someone, and they are kind of finding out about their pregnancy, I talk about pregnancy options. How are you feeling about this? How are you do you want to continue the pregnancy? Have you thought about those things?

起初她表示对堕胎不感兴趣，我们就继续其他话题。但谈话中途她突然说：你知道吗？我想要孩子，但我觉得这样不行。我得不到所需帮助就是因为怀孕，我没有支持系统，我必须先恢复健康——对于一个深陷严重精神危机的人，她展现出惊人的洞察力。

In a very neutral way. And initially she expressed she was not interested in abortion and so we just kind of continued to move on. And then right in the middle of the conversation she goes, You know what? I want a baby, but I don't think it's a good idea. I think the reason I can't get the help that I need is because I'm pregnant and I don't have a support system and I need to get well before I I mean, she had this incredible insight for someone who was in the throes of really serious mental health crisis.

我回应说：我不确定具体情况，你目前面临很多困难，但如果你愿意，我可以帮你咨询。她回答：请帮我。后来我因此受到多人训斥，他们认为既然她曾表示对怀孕感到兴奋，就根本不该与她讨论堕胎选项。

And, and I said, I don't know what this looks like. You know, you are under there's lots going on with you, but if you want me to, I will try to investigate it for you. She said, Please. And I did that and I actually got admonished by multiple people for discussing abortion with her. And, they felt like she had already, expressed that she was excited about her pregnancy and so there was no reason to ever talk about abortion with her.

这正说明人们根本不理解堕胎决策的复杂性。人类很难同时持有看似对立的观点，心理学上称为'对立张力'。我本科是神经科学专业，所以很热衷这方面——其实只要给予空间让人们同时容纳两种看似矛盾的想法，他们完全具备这种能力。

And I think that that just demonstrates how little we actually understand about how people have abortions. People have a hard time holding to things that are seemingly opposing. It's called in psychology, it's called the tension of opposites. I was a neuroscience major in undergrad, so I love this stuff. They have a hard time, but if you allow them to, give them space to hold two things at the same time that seem opposing, they're actually very, very capable of it.

举个与堕胎无关的例子：我父母现在和我同住。他们从迈阿密搬来，和我丈夫一起住在我家。因为他们健康状况恶化——父亲患痴呆症，母亲身体也不好。作为第一代拉丁裔，赡养父母是我们文化的重要部分。

The example that I give that has nothing to do with abortion is that my parents live with me now. They moved from Miami and they live in my home with me and my husband. I moved them in because they are not well. My father has dementia and, my mother is not well either. And as a first gen Latina, it's a huge part of our culture.

我们有几代同堂的家庭，我们会照顾父母。因此我深感荣幸能够参与其中，尊重我的文化遗产并照顾我的父母。但这某种程度上毁了我的生活，对吧？这有点夸张，但这确实非常非常艰难。我可以只关注那个感到自豪、荣幸和满足的自己，但那样就忽略了正在挣扎的那部分自我，而那部分会不断侵蚀我。

We have intergenerational households and we take care of our parents. And so I'm deeply honored to be able to participate in that and to honor my cultural heritage and to take care of my parents. And it's kind kind of ruined my life, right? Like it's, that's a hyperbole, but it's really, really hard. And so I could tend to just the part of me that is proud and honored and fulfilled that I can do this, but I would be leaving a part out, the part that is struggling, and that would be eating away.

我也可以只专注于挣扎的部分，但当你试图在现实世界中生活时，这种两极分化是行不通的。所以现在我就允许自己同时持有这两种感受。是的，这真的非常非常艰难。我真的非常非常挣扎。

I also could just focus on the part that was struggling, but that polarization doesn't work when you're trying to actually live in the real world. And so now I just allow myself to hold those two things at the same time. Yeah. It's really, really hard. I'm really, really struggling.

有些日子我希望情况不是这样，但同时我又很高兴自己能这样做。我认为对于大多数人来说，堕胎问题就处于这种矛盾空间。我希望我不必堕胎。我希望堕胎不被允许。我希望堕胎不是这样的事。

Some days I wish this wasn't the case, and I'm really happy that I can do it. And I think with abortion, for most people, it sits in that space. I wish I didn't have to have an abortion. I wish abortion wasn't allowed. I wish abortion wasn't this thing.

同时我认为人们需要时应该能够进行堕胎。我不希望强迫人们在两者之间做出选择。我认为这两种感受完全可以同时存在。我母亲就是这样。她既持有'我担心你的灵魂'的想法——

And I think people should be able to have an abortion when they need one. And I am not interested in making people choose between those two things. I think that those are very, very you are able to hold those two things at the exact same time. That's what my mother does. She holds I'm worried about your soul.

她认为堕胎是一种罪过，同时又为我能站出来帮助他人、运用我的技能照顾他们而感到骄傲。我不会要求她在这两者之间做选择。我认为让她自己处理这种矛盾对她来说更健康。

I think abortion is a sin. And I'm really proud of you for showing up for people and using your skills to take care of them. And I don't try to ask her to choose between those two things. I think it's more healthy for her to manage that conflict on her own.

你真聪明。她做得很好。

You're so smart. She did a good job.

谢谢。在我们某些激烈争吵时，我确实告诉过母亲，她说'这不是我养育你的方式'。我说'这正是你养育我的方式'。她不太喜欢这个说法，但这是事实。我父母都是虔诚的天主教徒，最初这非常非常具有挑战性。

Thank you. I did tell my mother during the throes of some of our arguments, she was like, this is not how I raised you. And I said, this is exactly how you raised me. And so she didn't like that very much, but it is true. My mom and dad are both pretty Catholic and initially it was very, very challenging.

我上医学院是为了成为创伤外科医生，然后我想也许我会成为癌症医生，我父母都很兴奋。后来我打电话给母亲说我想去参加计划生育专科培训，她问'那是什么意思？你要帮助人们怀孕吗？'她以为是治疗不孕不育。我说'不，我要做堕胎护理'。她就开始像我母亲那样说'你确定吗？你之前不是想做这个吗？'

I went to med school to be a trauma surgeon and then I thought maybe I was going to be a cancer doctor and my parents were really excited and then I called my mom and I said I think I'm going to go to family planning fellowship and she said what does that mean? Are you going to help people get pregnant? She thought it was infertility and I said, no, I'm going to do abortion care. She said, kind of just started doing what my mom does, is like, you sure? Didn't you want to do this?

'你之前不是想做那个吗？'气氛变得很紧张。但那时我已经二十多岁了，我的态度就像是'接受现实吧'，完全没有给她任何表达感受的空间。实际上我们有大约八个月没谈论这件事。

Didn't you want to do that? And there was like a tension in the air. But I was in my mid-20s at this point and I was sort of like, get on board, right? Like there was no I was not giving her any space to feel anything. And we actually didn't talk about it for about eight months.

我对她很生气，我想她也对我很生气。但不谈论这些事情感觉并不好。就像我说的，我无法不谈论事情。于是我开始尝试探索她对堕胎的真实感受到底是什么。

I was pissed at her. I think she was pissed at me. And but it didn't feel good to not talk about things. As I said, I I can't not talk about things. And so I started trying to explore where her feelings around abortion actually were.

我知道她认为堕胎是一种罪过。她之前告诉过我。但经过大约五年的时间，通过多次交谈，她慢慢向我透露了她自己的生育史。我之前没有意识到，她是通过不孕治疗才怀上我的，她怀孕非常困难，实际上，她生了我妹妹后，又意外怀孕了——这事我完全不知道，就在我妹妹出生后不久。我父亲说，我觉得我们负担不起。

I knew that she thought abortion was a sin. She had told me that before. But she ended up over time, over about five years, slowly with having multiple conversations telling me about her own reproductive history. I hadn't realized that I was, she had to conceive me with infertility treatment, she had a really hard time getting pregnant, and actually, she had my sister and then she had an unplanned pregnancy, which I had no idea about, right after my sister. And my father said, I don't think we can afford this.

我觉得我们需要做堕胎手术。我母亲说，她考虑了大约三十秒，然后说，不，我不能那么做。结果她在孕中期晚期遭遇了一次毁灭性的流产。直到今天，她仍然相信是上帝因她考虑堕胎而惩罚了她。关于我母亲的这些事，我以前一无所知。

I think we need to have an abortion. And my mom said she thought about it for about thirty seconds and said, No, I can't do that. And she ended up having a devastating late second trimester miscarriage. And to this day, she believes that God punished her for considering having an abortion. I knew none of these things about my mother.

听到这些帮助我理解了她在看待堕胎问题时的背景。她的生活经历、她的宗教信仰、她的价值观，所有这些都在影响着她看待此事的方式，这对我来说如同晴天霹雳。我当时就想，当然，你对此会有不同的感受。然后我永远忘不了那一刻。我当时正站在西南航空的C组登机区，你知道，就是那种要等很久才能登机的混乱队伍里。

And hearing that helped me understand the context in which she was viewing abortion. Her lived experience and her religion, her faith, her values, all of those things were coloring the way that she was viewing it, and it was like a lightning bolt to me. And I was like, of course, you would feel differently about this. And then I will never forget this moment. I was standing in, the C group of Southwest Airlines, so, you know, waiting forever to get on in in, like, that cataclyl.

我在电话里和她聊着别的事情。我当时要去参加一个会议，她说，你知道吗，有一次我陪我的朋友去做了堕胎手术。我说，什么？她说，是啊，那时我们15岁，堕胎是非法的，但她真的需要做，她请我陪她去。于是我们就一起走了过去，一路上我都在恳求她。

And I'm on the phone with her and we're talking about something else. I was going to a conference and she goes, you know, I went with my friend to get an abortion one time. And I said, what? And she goes, yeah, when we were 15, it was illegal and she really needed one and she asked me to go with her. And so we walked there together, and I begged her the whole time.

我恳求她不要做，我告诉她我会帮她，但是，你知道，我们俩都才15岁，她知道那是不可能的。于是我就站在那里，在她做堕胎手术时握着她的手。现在我在西南航空的C组登机区抽泣着，等着上飞机，因为我终于明白，我的母亲是一个可以在别人做她不同意的事情时，仍然握着他们的手、陪伴在他们身边的人。我意识到，那就是她试图为我做的事情。对吧？

I begged her not to do it, that I told her that I would help her, that but, you know, we were both 15, and she knew that that was not gonna happen. And so I stood there, and I held her hand while she had the abortion. And now I'm sobbing in the c group of Southwest Airlines, waiting to get on this plane because I now understand my mother to be a person who can hold someone's hand while they're doing something that she disagrees with, but show up for them. And I realized that that's what she was trying to do for me. Right?

她正以她的方式支持着我，尽管她不同意这件事。现在我们关系处在一个非常美好的状态，她会为我和我的病人祈祷，不是那种‘你要下地狱了’的祈祷，而是‘我希望你平安，我希望你得到庇护’。她仍然认为堕胎是一种罪过，偶尔还会担心我的灵魂。我为此感谢她。我感谢她关心我，但她同时也为我深感骄傲。

She was showing up for me in her way and even though she disagrees with it. And now we're in a really beautiful place where she prays for me and my patients and not in a like you're going to hell away, but in like, I want you to be safe and I want you to be held. She still thinks abortion is a sin, every once in a while worries about my soul. And I thank her for that. I thank her for worrying about me, but she's also deeply proud of me.

当我真的去告诉她我将提供全孕期护理时，我以为又会是另一种情况。结果她说，嗯，不，我完全理解。我听说了。所以她也改变了。是的，我认为进行那些对话非常重要，这是一个随时间推移的过程，并非线性的，但理解她作为一个人以及她的出发点，对于意识到我们实际上拥有许多共同的价值观，并且可以在某些事情上存在分歧至关重要。

And when I actually went to tell her that I was going to do all trimester care, I thought it was going to be another situation. And she goes, Yeah, no, I totally get that. I hear that. So she had moved as well. And so, yeah, I think having those conversations were really important and it happened over time and it was not like a linear process, but understanding her as a person and where she was coming from was critical to realizing that we actually have a lot of shared values and that we can differ on some things.

我的意思是，她现在和我住在一起。她拄着助行器，戴着计划生育的徽章在附近散步。我的意思是，她现在处于一个完全不同的境地，但，这就是我们共同的旅程。

I mean, she lives with me now. She walks around the neighborhood in her Planned Parenthood trip with her walker. Like, I mean, she's, like, in a totally different place now, but, it's it's been our journey.

本播客表达的观点仅代表我们个人。慈善资助帮助我们呈现这些故事，我们希望您能通过订阅、分享节目以及参与您当地社区的活动来继续支持这项工作。

Opinions expressed on this podcast are our own. Philanthropy is helping us highlight these stories, we hope you'll continue supporting this work by subscribing and sharing the show and getting involved in your local community.

本播客由我们——Beverly Gray医生、Jonas Swartz医生和Jane Marie——担任执行制作。由Little Everywhere负责制作。感谢Nick Thorburn、Patrick Ford和Maker为我们创作配乐，感谢Jamal Walton提供原创艺术作品。特别感谢所有为节目贡献知识和声音的每一个人。

This podcast is executive produced by us, doctor Beverly Gray, doctor Jonas Swartz, and Jane Marie. Production by Little Everywhere. Thanks to Nick Thorburn, Patrick Ford, and Maker for our score, and Jamal Walton for original artwork. Extra special thanks to everyone who lent their knowledge and voices to the show.

请订阅我们的Substack，outlaw.substack.com，获取每期节目的更多信息。最终您还会找到一些听众指南，帮助您更好地收听这些内容。

And please subscribe to our Substack, outlaw.substack.com for more information about each of the episodes. And eventually, you'll find some listener guides, to help you listen to this content.

嘿，Dream的听众们。终于来了。Dream Plus版，您可以无广告收听我们节目的每一集。每月只需5美元，这是唯一的订阅档位。

Hey, Dream listeners. It's finally here. The Dream Plus, where you can get every single episode of our show with no ads. It's $5 a month. It's the only tier.

没有商业广告。还有额外内容。这有助于保持我们的独立性，您的贡献将改变每位听众收听Dream的方式。我们将能够移除那些连我们自己都不知道被植入节目的广告，这对您和我们都很烦人。我们还会有一个很棒的讨论板。

No commercials. Plus bonus content. This helps keep us independent, and your contribution will help change the way every listener hears the dream. We'll be able to take out the ads that we don't even know are getting put into this show, which is annoying to both you and us. We're also gonna have an amazing discussion board.

界面将其归类为AMA，即'问我任何问题'。但我不太喜欢规则。所以我做的是开了一堆话题，比如向Dan和我提问，一般闲聊只是为了交朋友之类的。每次我负责讨论板时，我都会创建一个名为'女人爱购物'的标签，它就在那里。我们就聊聊买了什么。

The interface has it cataloged under AMA, ask me anything. But I don't love rules. So what I did is started a bunch of threads, like ask Dan and I questions, general chitchat just to make friends and stuff. And every time I've been in charge of a discussion board, I've made a tab called women be shopping, and it's there. And we're just gonna talk about what we bought.

会很有趣的。那就是dream.supercast.com。Supercast。请一定去订阅。只要5美元。

It'll be fun. That's the dream.supercast.com. Supercast. Please, please go subscribe. It's $5.

如果您住在洛杉矶，这比一杯拿铁还便宜。到时候见。

It's less than a latte if you live in Los Angeles. See you there.