美食英雄与反派

这个BBC播客由英国境外的广告支持。

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside The UK.

对食物着迷吗？

Obsessed with food?

喜欢寻找最佳食谱吗？

Love finding the best recipes?

我是塞缪尔·戈德史密斯，美食作家、厨师，也是《好食物》播客的主持人。

I'm Samuel Goldsmith, food writer, cook, and host of the Good Food podcast.

每周，我都会与顶尖厨师、美食作家以及引领饮食方式变革的人坐下来交谈，正是这些人真正让美食变得精彩。

Every week, I sit down with top chefs, food writers, and people at the forefront of changing the way we eat, all the people who really make food great.

如果你热爱一顿美味的餐食和一场精彩的对话，请在Spotify上搜索《好食物》播客，每周二更新新鲜内容。

If you love a good meal and a great conversation, search for the Good Food Podcast on Spotify, serving up fresh episodes every Tuesday.

到时候见。

See you there.

还有没有人觉得，自己在社交媒体上花五分钟，就感觉智商下降了？

Does anyone else feel like they spend five minutes on social media and they feel like their IQ has dropped?

你好，欢迎收听BBC世界服务的《食物链》，我是露丝·亚历山大。

Hello, and welcome to the food chain from the BBC World Service with me, Ruth Alexander.

这样的视频让我想给自己一拳。

Videos like this make me want to punch myself in the face.

这些人都在告诉你，私人教练必须得是

These are the same people that tell you personal trainers need to be

这是健身教练迈克尔·乌霍亚，他通过揭穿网络上的虚假信息积累了大量粉丝，而这期节目正是关于这个话题。

That's Michael Ujoa, a fitness coach who's built a following debunking online misinformation, which is what this episode is all about.

我们将审视社交媒体上一些最离谱的健康主张。

We're going to be examining some of social media's wildest wellness claims.

那些我们被警告要避开的食物和饮品，以及那些被吹捧为近乎神奇的食物和饮品。

The food and drinks we're told to fear, and those we're told are near miraculous.

我特别喜欢你动态里那段你点评的视频，你只是靠面部表情就反驳了一个人——那人一边摇晃玻璃杯里的水，一边说只要这样摇晃，水的成分就会改变，对身体有益。

I did enjoy on your feed a video you were critiquing where kind of just with your facial expressions, where somebody was swirling water and saying, if you swirl water in the glass, then you basically change its composition, and it's good for you.

我知道。

I know.

我总觉得自己扑克脸比实际要好，但总会收到消息说我的表情把一切都暴露了。

I always think I've got a better poker face than I do, and I get messages telling me that my face gives everything away.

确实如此。

It does.

是啊。

Yeah.

我只是想轻松一下，让营养话题没那么沉重。

I just like to try and have a bit of a laugh, try and lighten the load around nutrition.

我们稍后会再听到迈克尔的分享。

We'll hear more from Michael later.

英国的一位听众萨莉发邮件到 bbc.co.uk 的《食物链》节目，让我们调查一下菜籽油，她说网上有很多声音声称它只适合做发动机用油。

Sally, a listener in The UK, emailed the food chain at b b c dot c o dot u k to ask us to look into rapeseed oil, saying there are many raging voices online claiming it's only suitable for engines.

是的。

Yes.

我们也看过那些关于种子油的视频。

We've seen the videos about seed oils too.

油、碳水化合物、糖，几乎每种食物都被网上夸大为恶魔或英雄。

Oils, carbs, sugar, almost every foodstuff gets villainized or heroized online.

因此，我们将揭穿一些谣言，解释科学原理，并会见那些试图用事实对抗虚假信息的人。

So we're going to bust some myths, explain the science, and meet those trying to fight false information with facts.

顺便说一下，本节目包含关于饮食失调的对话，部分听众可能会感到不安。

And by the way, this program includes conversations about disordered eating, which some listeners may find upsetting.

我戒掉了糖、麸质、种子油、坚果、燕麦，以及一些我认为组胺含量高的水果和蔬菜。

I cut out sugar, I cut gluten, seed oils, nuts, oats, certain types of fruit and vegetables that I thought had a lot of histamine.

最终，我只能吃蔬菜、肉类、鱼类、少量水果，别的什么都没有了。

At some point, I ended up with vegetables, meat, fish, some fruit, and really nothing else.

这是凯西尔·西蒙斯，一位专门研究网络错误和虚假信息的研究员。

This is Cecile Simmons, a researcher specializing in online mis and disinformation.

她不仅在专业领域有这方面的经验，个人经历也是如此。

It's not just professional experience of this she has, it's personal too.

2022年，我正在休产假，有很多空闲时间，而我的身体对分娩后的变化反应非常强烈。

Back in 2022, I was on maternity leave and I had a lot of time on my hands and my body had reacted quite strongly to having given birth.

这对身体来说是个巨大的冲击。

It's a big shock to the system.

我当时还患有慢性皮肤病，症状严重恶化，状态也不好。

And I had, you know, a chronic skin condition that was really flaring up, and I wasn't doing great.

我感到极度疲惫，这就像一位年轻母亲本该有的感受一样。

I wasn't I was feeling extremely tired, as you would expect a young mother to feel.

我想，也许我需要改善饮食，也许我只是需要吃得更健康一些。

And I thought, well, maybe I need to clean up my diet, maybe I just need to eat more healthily.

起初是这样开始的，但很快我就开始在网上寻找建议，包括在社交媒体平台上。

And it started like that, and I think that very quickly I ended up looking for some advice online, including on social media platforms.

结果我陷入了各种网络迷宫，一些网红声称你需要戒掉麸质。

And I ended up falling into various online rabbit holes where various influencers were saying, well you need to cut out gluten.

于是我开始戒掉很多食物，认为它们可能具有致炎性——一些网红确实这么说。

And I started cutting out a lot of food thinking that maybe, you know, it was inflammatory, yes, some of these influencers were saying.

作为一名研究网络影响的人，我内心其实觉得这一切很可能都是胡说八道，但我觉得不妨试试看，反正也没什么害处。

I think as someone who was also studying online influence, at the back of my mind, I was thinking, well, this is all probably nonsense, but it's worth giving it a go and it's quite harmless.

既然你心里一直有这种怀疑，那你为什么还会被这些内容吸引，并觉得它们如此有说服力呢？

Given that you had that voice in the back of your mind, why do you think you were so drawn to this content and found it so compelling?

我认为，当你正遭受令人沮丧的慢性健康问题困扰时——很多人都是如此——如果你觉得现有的医疗治疗效果不佳，就可能会被健康博主吸引，他们告诉你，只要低碳饮食，你的症状就会好转。

I think that when you're, for example, struggling with frustrating chronic health conditions, as many people are, and if you feel that the current medical treatment is disappointing, you will perhaps be tempted by a wellness influencer who will tell you that, you know, if you go low carb, your symptoms will improve.

塞西尔还认为，她青少年时期曾患有饮食失调，这使她尤其容易受到影响。

Cecile also thinks the fact she had an eating disorder as a teenager made her especially susceptible.

你知道，饮食失调的康复从来都不是线性的，当我的身体感觉失控时，我试图通过寻找一种完美的饮食来重新掌控一切，让自己感觉良好、状态绝佳。

You know, recovery from eating disorder is never really linear, and in that moment when my body felt out of control, I think that I tried to regain control by seeking this perfect diet that would make me feel well and fantastic.

我想，那段时间我也正处于脆弱的时刻，有大量时间刷手机，而且这些内容还被精准推送给我。

And I think it really caught me in a moment of vulnerability as well, when I had a lot of time to scroll, And that was also targeted, I suppose.

所以，当你点开一个关于食物的视频，接着又点开另一个、再一个，你有没有觉得看到的视频越来越吸引眼球，仿佛被慢慢拖入了信息漩涡？

So as you clicked on one video and then another and then another on food, do you think that you were then seeing more and more attention grabbing videos and sort of being kind of almost drawn down the rabbit hole?

没错。

Absolutely.

我发现，一旦我开始点击营养和健康类的内容，相关信息就如潮水般涌来。

I saw that once I started clicking on kind of nutritional and kind of wellness content, then it kind of became a deluge.

这简直没完没了。

It was really nonstop.

算法在推荐类似内容方面极其有效。

The algorithm was incredibly effective at recommending more of the same.

这东西对你真的非常有害。

This thing is really terrible for you.

你需要过滤你的水，要戒掉羽衣甘蓝，要戒掉种子油，我觉得它真的侵入了我的社交媒体动态。

You need to filter your water, you need to cut out kale, you need to you know cut out seed oils and it got I think it really invaded my social media feed.

那这一切对你的饮食产生了什么影响？

And what effect did all this have on your diet then?

你走得多远？

How far did

你走得多远？

you take it?

到了后来，我甚至认为单一成分就会引发我的症状。

It got to the point where I thought that a single ingredient could cause my symptoms.

所以我身上有很多湿疹在反复发作。

So I had a lot of eczema that was sort of flaring up.

有段时间我想，哦，燕麦是罪魁祸首，肯定是燕麦。

And at some point I thought, oh, oats are the culprit, it's definitely oats.

于是我就差不多不再吃燕麦粥了。

And you know, I kind of stopped eating porridge.

而且在我的个人信息流里，还有大量反燕麦的内容。

And there was also just an awful lot of anti oats sort of content on my personal feed.

奇怪的是，我当然戒掉了种子油，还有糖之类的东西。

Strangely, I cut out the seed oils, of course, you know, things like sugar.

但我的状况并没有好转。

And I wasn't getting any better.

我一直以为，肯定有一样东西在严重加剧我的症状，只要我找到它，就能弄清楚什么是完美的饮食。

And I always thought, oh, there is this one thing that probably is really aggravating my symptoms, and I'm going to crack it, and you know, I'll figure out what the perfect diet is.

但我并没有找到。

And I didn't.

问题在于，我的社交媒体动态中存在着关于该剔除哪些食物的不同声音。

And the problem was that on my social media feed, there were competing voices about what foods to cut out.

于是有些人说，这种食物特别糟糕。

So you had people who were saying, oh, this food is incredibly hard.

但问题是，如果你听信了所有这些说法，那就没什么东西可以吃了。

But the problem is if you listen to all of them, there was nothing left to eat.

西塞尔·西蒙斯。

Cecile Simmons.

我们稍后会回到她身上，听听接下来发生了什么。

We'll come back to her shortly to hear what happened next.

但首先，你在社交媒体上看到的关于食物和健康的资讯有多少是可靠的？

But first, how much of what you see about food and health on your social feed is reliable?

厌倦了怀疑社交媒体上的健康信息是否可信？

Sick of wondering if health information on social media is legit?

这里教你用CRABS框架快速识别警示信号。

Here's how to quickly check for red flags using the CRABS framework.

C代表利益冲突。

C is for conflict of interest.

这是艾米丽·丹尼斯博士，她试图帮助粉丝避免有害的错误信息。

This is Doctor Emily Dennis trying to help her followers avoid harmful misinformation.

她是澳大利亚迪肯大学身体活动与营养研究所的讲师，并曾尝试衡量网上错误信息的普遍程度。

She's a lecturer at the Institute for Physical Activity and Nutrition at Deakin University in Australia and has tried to measure how much wrong information there is out there.

我们最初做了一项大规模的证据综述，研究了大约65项关于网络营养信息是否准确且高质量的研究。

So we started off by doing a really big review of the evidence and we looked at about 65 studies that had examined whether information about nutrition online is accurate and of a high quality.

通过这项研究，我们发现大多数研究都表明，网站和社交媒体上存在大量营养错误信息，但像TikTok和Instagram这样的新兴平台却几乎没有被研究过。

And we found through that research that by and large, studies were finding that there was a lot of nutrition misinformation on websites and social media, but platforms that were kind of newer, like TikTok and Instagram, hadn't really been studied very much at all.

于是，我们进一步调查了主要发布食品和营养内容的热门Instagram账号。

So we then kind of went out, and we looked at influential Instagram accounts that primarily posted about food and nutrition.

这些账号的粉丝数均超过十万，且均为澳大利亚的Instagram账号。

So these are accounts with over a 100,000 followers, and these were all kind of Australian Instagram accounts as well.

总体而言，我们发现所查看的帖子中近一半包含一定程度的营养错误信息；我们还发现，品牌发布的内容（即试图推销产品）以及关于补充剂的信息，质量普遍较低，更可能包含错误信息。

So overall, we found that almost half of the posts that we looked at contained some level of nutrition misinformation, And we saw that information that was posted by brands, so people trying to sell something, and also information about supplements tended to be of lower quality and was more likely to contain misinformation.

人们会受到这类内容的影响吗？

Are people acting on this kind of content?

艾米丽表示，她的研究显示人们确实会。

Emily says her research shows they are.

这可能比如服用某种补充剂，虽然可能不会造成实际伤害，但你也可能根本不需要花这笔钱，而且它也没有任何有效性的证据。

It might be something like, you know, taking a supplement that might not lead to any real harm, but it also might be something that you don't need to spend money on and doesn't have any evidence of working.

所以，其影响可能更多体现在人们的钱包上，而不是重大的健康影响，但在营养和更广泛的健康信息背景下，确实存在潜在的危害。

So it might be kind of the impact might be on someone's hip pocket rather than a big health impact, but there is really a potential for harm there in the context of nutrition and more general health information as well.

艾米丽·丹尼斯。

Emily Dennis.

对于新手妈妈塞西尔来说，她在网上寻找营养建议后，为了缓解皮肤问题而戒除了多种食物，直到她去看医生，这才成为转折点。

For new mum Cecile, who'd cut out numerous foods to try to resolve a skin condition after looking for nutrition advice online, a turning point came when she went to see her doctor.

医生对我说，你为什么要做这种事？

The doctor said to me, you know, why are you doing this?

你需要好好吃饭，需要摄入多样化的食物。

You need to feed yourself properly and you need to have a range of food.

那次对话真的改变了我的看法，之后我决定做出一些改变。

That conversation really changed my perspective, and I decided to make some changes after that.

我决定不再浏览社交媒体上的营养相关内容，停止参与这些帖子。

I decided to no longer look at social media for nutrition related content, to stop engaging with these posts.

于是我对我社交媒体做了一次清理。

So I did a sort of clean up of my social media.

我实际上删除了一个主要的社交媒体账号，创建了一个新的，然后精心筛选内容，让它完全不一样。

I actually deleted one of my key social media accounts, I created a new one, and I just curated it to see something completely different.

我不再关注营养和健康类内容，而是转而关注大量与书籍相关的内容。

So instead of following nutrition and wellness, I just follow a lot of book related content.

不知怎的，我觉得我的算法现在运作得不错。

And it's somehow, I think my algorithm is behaving at the moment.

所以我觉得我现在找到了一个很好的平衡。

So I feel like I have found a good balance now.

凯西尔·西蒙斯，您正在收听BBC世界服务的《食物链》。

Cecile Simmons, you're listening to the Food Chain from the BBC World Service.

我是露丝·亚历山大。

I'm Ruth Alexander.

本周，我们将探讨食物中的英雄与反派，以及社交媒体上营养错误信息的泛滥。

And this week, we're looking at food heroes and villains and the proliferation of nutritional misinformation on social media.

我比讨厌‘我一天吃了什么’这类视频更讨厌的是，有人未经允许就公开分析和批评别人的‘我一天吃了什么’视频。

The only thing I hate more than what I eat in a day videos are videos like this one, where people are openly analyzing and critiquing other people's what I eat in a day videos without ever being asked.

这真的很无礼。

It's pretty rude.

我们的下一位嘉宾是来自苏格兰爱丁堡的私人教练兼运动营养师迈克尔·乌霍亚，他致力于对抗这种现象。

Our next guest, Michael Ujoa, a personal trainer and performance nutritionist from Edinburgh, Scotland, makes it his business to counter it.

目前网上对谁可以推广某些产品和方法的监管非常少。

So there is very little regulation online around who can promote certain products and certain approaches.

任何人都可以自称营养师，这总是让我感到恐惧。

Anyone can call themselves a nutritionist online, and that always terrifies me.

因此，任何人都可以冒充营养专业人士，而他们实际上在营养领域没有任何资质。

So anyone can masquerade as a nutrition professional when they have absolutely no qualifications in the area of nutrition.

所以无论是要求每个人都必须遵循这种饮食方式，每个人都应该生酮，每个人都应该吃食肉饮食，而营养学令人沮丧的地方在于，没有一种方法适合所有人。

So whether that's around everyone has to follow this diet approach, everyone should do keto, everyone should do carnivore diet, and the kind of beauty and the frustrating thing about nutrition is that there is no one size fits all.

我们需要的饮食和锻炼方式必须因人而异。

The way that we need to eat and exercise needs to be individualized to us.

因此，当你在社交媒体上向全球受众解释这一点时，很难与那些声称‘遵循我的六周计划，就能减掉X公斤体重’的人竞争。

So trying to explain that to a worldwide audience on social media is very difficult when you're competing with people that say, follow my six week program, and you can lose x amount of weight.

那么情况有多离谱呢？

So how crazy does it get?

你在营养方面看到过最疯狂的主张是什么？

What are the wildest claims you see around nutrition?

哦，天哪。

Oh, wow.

有太多这样的例子，你开始觉得这令人担忧。

There's so many that you start to become this is the worrying thing.

你开始对这些事变得有点麻木。

You start to become a little bit numb to it.

最近在TikTok上出现了一个大趋势，属于‘瘦子’标签下，极度美化消瘦、极瘦的体型，并鼓吹极端节食，鼓励人们进行72小时禁食。

There was a big trend recently on on TikTok where it's kind of under the skinny tock bracket, where it's very glorifying, being very slim, being very skinny, and then people giving really restrictive eating habits, kind of encouraging people to go on seventy two hour fast.

正如我所说，还有各种补充剂，人们鼓励服用那些几乎没有经过测试的可疑补充剂。

Then, as I said, supplements as well, people encouraging those to take questionable supplements that have very little testing around them.

此外，还有人把咖啡灌肠当作减肥工具来推广。

Then you also have people encouraging things like coffee enemas, for example, as kind of weight loss tools.

咖啡什么？

Coffee what?

咖啡灌肠。

Coffee enemas.

对。

Yeah.

这些内容在网上会周期性地流行，但字面意思就是它所说的那样。

It's a thing that they go through cycles online, but it it's literally what it says on the tin.

人们在鼓励其他人用咖啡做灌肠。

People are encouraging others to do enemas with coffee.

我觉得我不会想看这个。

Don't think I'd want to watch that.

是啊。

Yeah.

你确实不想。

You don't.

它们根本一点都不好。

It's they're not nice at all.

现在挺流行那种‘我一天吃什么’的视频。

There's quite a trend for what I eat in a day videos.

你怎么看这些视频？

What do you think of those?

我真的很不喜欢这类视频，有几个原因。

I really don't like them for a few reasons.

首先，我们的饮食方式应该是独特且个性化的。

First of all, the way that we eat needs to be special or individualized to us.

这取决于我们的饮食偏好、过敏或不耐受情况、可获得的食物种类以及我们的收入水平，也就是我们能负担得起哪些食物。

It depends on kind of our food preferences, allergies or intolerances, what food we have access to, what our income is like, so what foods can we afford to buy.

这并不是关于食物本身，而是关于塑造一种形象和外观，而这可能极其危险。

It's not about the food, it's about creating an image and creating a look, and that can be incredibly dangerous.

这是一种社交媒体精心策划的饮食方式，旨在吸引点击和浏览量，而不是鼓励人们养成健康均衡的饮食习惯。

It's a social media curated way of eating, a way that encourages clicks and views, rather than encouraging people to eat a healthy and balanced diet.

你是一名私人教练，嗯。

You work as a personal trainer Mhmm.

而且你有客户。

And have clients.

营养方面的错误信息是否在现实生活中对任何人产生了影响？

Do you misinformation about nutrition having a real world effect on anyone?

是的，每天都会遇到。

Yeah, every single day.

通常，碳水化合物是最常被限制的，尤其是随着生酮饮食和食肉饮食等网络潮流的兴起，人们被鼓励转向以动物性食物为主，并避免食用所有含碳水化合物的食物，因为人们被告知这些食物对健康有害，或者会导致体重增加。

Usually, kind of carbohydrates tends to be the main one that gets restricted, especially as the rise of popularity of things like the carnivore diet and the keto diet online, where people are encouraged to go quite animal based and to not eat all carbohydrate containing foods because they're told that they're really bad for you, or they're going to make you put on a lot of body fat.

此外，人们还会被告诉水果对你非常有害，因为它会刺激胰岛素分泌。

And from that as well, you'll see people being told that fruit is really bad for you because it spikes your insulin.

吃蔬菜对你有害，因为其中糖分太多，因此人们放弃了所有这些食物，而当你查看研究时，这些食物恰恰能为我们带来益处，让我们最有可能健康长寿。

Eating vegetables is bad for you because there's too much sugar in it, and therefore, are cutting out all these foods that when you look at the research, these are the things that provide us benefits and provide us with the best chance of living a healthy and long life.

通常人们认为，尤其是女性，会感受到瘦身、拥有完美身材、遵循正确饮食的压力。

You know, it's it's commonly thought that it's women who, in particular, feel the pressure to be slim, to have the perfect body, to be on the right diet.

你看到了什么？

What are you seeing?

是的。

Yeah.

现在有一种

There is this kind

这种

of

对营养各个方面的有毒男性气质观念，这与生酮饮食等理念完美契合，其中吃肉被视为非常阳刚的表现。

toxic masculinity approach to every aspect of nutrition now, and it it ties in nicely with kinda like the carnivore diet and everything too, where eating meat is seen as very masculine.

高蛋白餐被视为非常男性化，这一切都强化了你必须塑造的自我形象，导致人们陷入极端限制性饮食行为，无论是多年来 obsessively 追踪卡路里，还是转向使用类固醇，因为他们觉得必须展现出强壮肌肉的形象才能被认可为男人。

High protein meals are seen as very masculine, and it all just feeds into this image that you have to portray of yourself, and it leads people down the roots of very restrictive eating behaviors, whether that is kind of obsessively tracking calories for years on end, whether it is leading down the route of steroids because they need to portray this kind of like big muscular image in order to be seen as a man.

我在社交媒体上经常谈论健身领域普遍存在的身体形象和身体畸形障碍问题。

I talk a lot on social media about body image and body dysmorphia that is rife across fitness spaces.

因此，我经常收到男性用户的强烈反对，他们说我是个‘大豆男孩’，质疑我的性取向，甚至说我的妻子会离开我。

And as a result, I get a lot of pushback from men telling me that I am things I'm told I'm I'm a soy boy, questioning my sexuality, telling me that my wife is going to leave me.

所有这些都让我震惊，没想到社交媒体和健康倡导已经发展到这种地步。

All these things that it it just really blows my mind that this is where we've got to on social media, and this is where health promotion has reached.

迈克尔·尤乔瓦。

Michael Yujowa.

我们联系了几家社交媒体公司，询问他们如何应对错误信息。

We've contacted several social media companies to ask them how they tackle misinformation.

TikTok 告诉我们，其指南禁止展示或推广紊乱性饮食和危险的减重行为。

TikTok told us its guidelines don't allow the showing or promoting of disordered eating and dangerous weight loss behaviors.

它表示，如果用户搜索‘瘦身谈话’这类关键词，将不会得到任何结果，而是会被引导至专家资源。

It says if people try to search for the term skinny talk, they won't get any results and instead will be directed to expert resources.

谷歌拥有YouTube，它告诉我们，平台上不允许存在可能造成伤害的误导性内容，并且该政策通过人工智能和人工审核共同执行。

Google, which owns YouTube, told us misleading content that can cause harm isn't allowed on the platform and that the policy is enforced using both AI and human reviewers.

我们也联系了拥有Facebook和Instagram的Meta公司，但它尚未向我们提供任何声明。

We've also been in touch with Meta, which owns Facebook and Instagram, but it hasn't sent us a statement.

然而，尽管有这些政策，我仍然发现网络上很容易找到美化极端瘦弱的内容。

However, despite these policies, I've found content idealizing extreme skinniness is still easy to find online.

随着关于饮食宜忌的误导信息持续存在，我们已与来自美国密歇根州底特律的注册营养师格蕾丝·德罗谢核实了一些最大胆的主张，她同时也是美国营养与饮食学会的代表。

As misinformation about what we should and shouldn't eat persists, we've fact checked some of the boldest claims with Grace DeRoche, a registered dietitian nutritionist in Detroit, Michigan in The United States and spokesperson there for the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics.

她说，客户经常带着他们在社交媒体上看到的内容来向她咨询。

She says clients often come to her with questions about what they've seen on social media.

当然。

Absolutely.

没错。

Definitely.

他们从各个渠道听到各种说法。

They are hearing things from everywhere.

各种极端情况。

A lot of different extremes.

对吧？

Right?

很多食物被妖魔化，比如这个不好。

A lot of demonizing of food, like, this is bad.

你永远不能吃这个。

You can never have this.

或者这个很好。

Or this is great.

这是超级食物。

This is a super food.

这是你每天都应该吃的东西。

This is what you should have every day.

哪些食物被妖魔化了？

Which foods are demonized?

哦，我们还有多少时间

Oh, how much time do

我们还有多少时间？

we have?

最近，种子油确实成了热门话题。

Definitely seed oils lately have been a hot topic.

告诉我

Tell me

跟我说说种子油。

tell me about seed oils.

比如葵花籽油、菜籽油、芥花油、花生油等。

So it could be sunflower, canola oil, rapeseed oil, peanut oils.

很多来自种子或坚果的不同油脂，你在餐厅里可能会看到它们用于油炸，或者被广泛用于加工食品中，因为它们保质期较长。

So a lot of different oils that come from seeds or nuts that you might see in restaurants that use it for deep frying or that can be used in a lot of processed foods because they're pretty shelf stable.

那它们是怎么变得声名狼藉的呢？

And how have they come to get a bad name then?

所以这个炎症的话题就出现了。

So this inflammation topic comes up.

对吧？

Right?

这是我从患者和我生活中接触的人那里听到的最常见的话题，他们说：‘我听说它会引起炎症。’

That is like the number one thing I hear from my patients and people that I talk to, like in my life, they're like, well, I heard it causes inflammation.

有些人问我，这是真的吗？

And some people ask me, is that true?

炎症是身体对损伤或感染的自然反应。

Inflammation is the body's natural response to injury or infection.

当身体出现问题时，免疫系统会激活化学物质和细胞来保护和修复组织。

Your immune system activates chemicals and cells to protect and repair tissue when something's wrong.

短期内，比如你割伤了，它是有帮助的，但如果是长期的，就会变得有害。

It's helpful in the short term if you have a cut, say, but if it's long term, it becomes harmful.

现在，种子油含有omega-6脂肪酸，人们曾认为它们会增加体内的炎症。

Now seed oils contain omega-six fats, which were once thought to increase inflammation in the body.

但现有的证据表明，情况并非如此，事实上，还有一些证据表明它们可能对健康有益。

But it turns out the available evidence shows that isn't the case, And in fact, there's some evidence that they may be beneficial to health.

研究明确显示，较高的欧米伽-6摄入量并不会自动增加炎症，反而有助于预防心脏病。

Research definitely shows that a higher omega-six intake does not automatically increase inflammation, but it is beneficial to fight heart disease.

摄入欧米伽-6脂肪酸的人（这些脂肪酸来自种子油）的低密度脂蛋白水平更低，而低密度脂蛋白就是那种不好的、我们不希望它过高的胆固醇。

And people that do omega six fatty acids, which come from seed oils, have a lower LDL, and then the LDL is the lousy one, the bad one that we don't want to have it high.

是的。

Yes.

并且冠状动脉事件的风险更低。

And has lower risk of coronary events.

也就是说，心脏病发作、中风或其他心脏疾病相关因素的风险更低。

So, you know, heart attack or stroke or different, heart disease factors.

因此，人们普遍认为种子油对健康有害，但实际上恰恰相反。

So the idea is out there that seed oils are bad for you, but actually, the opposite is true.

它们对你是有益的。

They are good for you.

是的。

Yes.

特别是当用饱和脂肪替代它们时，而我们知道饱和脂肪会增加LDL。

Especially when replacing them with saturated fats that we know can increase LDL.

种子油也与许多加工食品有关。

And seed oils are also tied to a lot of processed food.

所以，如果某人戒掉了种子油，现在也戒掉了他们过去常吃的那些加工或超加工的零食，他们可能会感觉更好。

So someone might feel better if they've cut out seed oils, and now they've cut out all the their treat foods that they used to have that were processed or ultra processed.

我认为问题就出在这里：我们没有全面看待——你吃了什么、排除了什么、摄入了什么，而只是聚焦于某一种食物，把它妖魔化，当成罪魁祸首。

And I think that's where we get in trouble is, again, not looking at the big picture, what you're eating, what you're excluding, what you're including, instead of just focusing and demonizing and making the villain just one particular thing.

那么，目前还有哪些其他备受关注的‘罪魁祸首’，你认为它们是被冤枉的？

So which are which are some of the other high profile villains at the moment that you think are wrongly accused?

我觉得碳水化合物很冤。

I feel I feel bad for carbs.

我总是开玩笑说，想做个网站叫‘carbsarenotevil.com’，说明碳水化合物无害，种子油是安全的。

I always joke around saying, wanna make a website that's like carbsarenotevil.com, and seed oils are safe.

它是可以的.com。

It's okay.dotcom.

我觉得我确实应该这样。

Feel maybe I should yeah.

所以这是另一个重要的点。

So I so that's another big one.

我们又走向了极端，比如碳水化合物与脂肪，或者碳水化合物与蛋白质。

Is that, again, we go into extremes like carbs versus fat or carbs versus protein.

我们完全可以让这些都融入良好的营养中。

And there is room to make all of this good nutrition fit.

你要记住，碳水化合物涵盖了许多食物类别。

You have to remember carbohydrates covers quite a few food groups.

不仅包括全谷物和谷物，还包括水果。

Not only is it whole grains, grains, but it's also fruit.

还有淀粉类蔬菜。

It's starchy vegetables.

它还包含一些乳制品，含有天然的乳糖，也就是奶糖。

It is some dairy with natural milk sugar, dairy sugar, lactose.

所以豆类和种子也含有一些碳水化合物。

So beans, seeds, they have some carbs as well.

因此，碳水化合物涵盖的食品类别相当广泛。

So it is quite a few food groups that cover the span of what carbohydrates fall into.

这是一个非常有用的提醒，因为当你一说到碳水化合物时，我立刻想到了甜甜圈，然后想到面包，再想到土豆，我的思维就到此为止了。

That is a very helpful reminder because as soon as you said carbs, I immediately thought of a sugary donut, and then I thought of bread, and then I thought of potatoes, and that's kind of as far as my mind goes, really.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

人们想到的是甜点。

People think of dessert.

他们想到的是添加糖，但却忘了碳水化合物也是我们纤维的主要来源，而普通人通常摄入的纤维不足。

They think of added sugar, but they forget that carbs are also our main source of fiber, and the average person isn't getting enough fiber.

碳水化合物是我们主要的能量来源。

Carbs are our main source of energy.

因此，我们从食物中获得的许多重要成分都来自碳水化合物。

So a lot of important parts of what we get from food come from carbohydrates.

那么，这些坏蛋已经解决了。

So those are the villains dealt with.

结果发现它们并没有那么糟糕。

Turns out they're not so bad.

事实上，它们对身体有益。

In fact, they are good for you.

那那些被捧为英雄的食物呢？

What about the foods that are made into heroes?

哪些是你不太确定的食物？

Which are they that you're not so sure about?

听好了。

Listen.

别冲我来啊，大家，但蛋白质很重要。

Don't come for me, people, but protein is important.

我能听到人群的骚动。

I can hear the stumpede.

我知道。

I know.

我知道。

I know.

我最近有个病人，她一直在努力达成蛋白质摄入目标，而且非常积极地追求。

I had a patient recently who she's really been, like, trying to go for those protein goals and really pushing them.

其中一部分做法就是使用蛋白质补充剂和蛋白粉。

And part of that has come into protein supplementation and powder.

然后她告诉我，她只是把蛋白粉放在嘴里，然后喝水吞下去。

And then she told me she was just putting the powder in her mouth and then drinking water.

这日子没法过了。

There's no way to live.

我当时就想，第一，太恶心了。

And I was like I was like, one, gross.

第二，别这么干。

Two, don't do that.

第三，这也很可怜。

Three, that's also sad.

你知道的，我们总觉得食物就是爱，应该好好享受。

You know, a little bit about, like, we're like, food is love and should be enjoyed.

于是我们把她拉回正轨，现在她已经达到了良好的平衡。

So we reeled her back then, and she's at a good balance now.

所以在这个过程中，也想提醒大家，不必非黑即白。

So just to remind people of that in the process too, like, doesn't have to be all or nothing.

不必非好即坏。

It doesn't have to be good versus bad.

不必总是扮演反派和英雄。

It doesn't have to be villain and superhero all the time.

这里可以有一个平衡的中间状态，事情进展顺利，你在过程中也感觉良好。

There can be this happy medium of balance where things are going well and you're feeling good about it in the process.

格蕾丝·德罗西亚。

Grace Derocia.

当你刷屏时，如何区分好的建议和坏的建议？

So when you're scrolling, how can you separate the good advice from the bad?

我询问了注册营养师艾米丽·丹尼斯，该注意些什么。

I asked registered nutritionist, Emily Dennis, what to look out for.

首先是要看相关的资质。

The first thing is relevant qualifications.

所以，提供营养信息的人是否具备相关的营养资质？

So is a person who's providing nutrition information someone with a relevant nutrition qualification?

他们是否拥有营养学方面的大学教育背景？

Do they have university level education in nutrition?

有些医生可能会发布关于营养的信息，但他们实际上可能并没有专业的营养学资质。

Some doctors might put out information about nutrition but might not actually have specialized nutrition qualifications.

另一件重要的事情是留意对方是否在试图向你推销产品。

The other big thing is looking out for whether someone is trying to sell you something.

是否存在利益冲突？

Can there be a conflict of interest?

对方是否有某种潜在动机，希望你相信他们提供的信息？

Is there some underlying reason that someone might want you to believe the information that they're giving you?

我认为另一个非常明显的警示信号是那些极其惊人或新颖的信息。

And the other thing that I think is a really big red flag that people should look out for is really shocking or novel information.

如果你看到的健康或营养信息听起来好得令人难以置信，或者与你之前听到的内容相矛盾，这可能是为了增加互动、操纵算法的一种手段，因为人们往往会对新颖或有争议的信息产生更多互动。

So if you're seeing health or nutrition information that is seems too good to be true or is contradictory of what you've already heard, this can be a tactic to sort of increase engagement and hack the algorithm because people tend to engage with information that is novel or controversial.

因此，发布错误信息的人有动力这样做，因为这会提升他们的互动量。

So there's an incentive for the person posting misinformation to kind of do that because it's gonna drive up their engagement.

这些是一些需要特别留意的关键点。

So those are some really kinda key things to look out for.

艾米莉表示，警惕社交媒体上的营养信息不应当仅仅依赖消费者自己。

Emily says it shouldn't be just down to the consumer to be wary of nutritional information on social media.

你知道，社交媒体简直是谣言传播的完美环境。

You know, social media is really this perfect environment for misinformation spreading.

所以我认为，是的，我们需要对发布危险健康误导信息的人进行监管并设立相应后果，但我们也需要让平台承担责任，因为它们本可以采取措施来删除或标记潜在的危险健康信息。

So I think, yes, we need to be, regulating, and having some consequences in place for the people who might post dangerous health misinformation, but we also need to hold the platforms themselves to account because there's things that they can be doing to remove or flag potentially dangerous health information.

艾米丽·丹尼斯。

Emily Dennis.

那么，关于塞西尔的建议呢？她曾因网上错误的建议而限制饮食，如今已经走出来了。

And what about tips from Cecile, who once restricted her diet because of poor online advice and has now come out the other side?

我会说，大概就是点取消关注按钮吧。

I would say click the unfollow button, probably.

我会建议你试着操控你的算法，尽量不要点击，或者点击‘不感兴趣’来避开某些内容。

I would say try to game your algorithm, try to kind of not click or click not interested on certain things.

试着不要参与这些帖子的互动。

Try to perhaps not kind of engage with some of these posts.

我认为，作为曾经深受这类内容影响的人，减少与它的互动，并真正有意识地后退一步，是最有帮助的做法。

I think that as someone who was quite affected by that content, trying to limit how much I engage with it and actually really take a deliberate step back was the most helpful thing.

现在你已经重新将这些食物大部分加回饮食中了，感觉怎么样？

Now you have added most of these foods back into your diet, how do you feel?

我确实好太多了。

I'm so much better, for sure.

我觉得对我来说特别有意思的是，一旦我重新引入了所有这些食物，就感觉好多了，因为实际上，多样化的饮食才是对整体健康最有益的。

I think for me it was really interesting because once I reintroduced all these foods, just felt immensely better because actually a diverse diet is really what's most supportive of health in general.

你的工作是调查网络上的错误信息，但你却仍然被这些营养方面的错误信息所影响，这不正说明了什么吗？

The fact that your job is to investigate misinformation online, and yet you still kind of fell for the nutritional misinformation yourself shows, doesn't it?

我们都容易被这些信息误导。

That we all fall for this stuff.

网上有一些非常吸引人的、简单的说法，一旦进入脑海就很难摆脱。

There are some very compelling kind of simple messages out there, which are hard to get out of your head once they're in.

是的，我也这么认为。

Yes, think so.

我觉得这充分体现了网络影响力的力量，因为当我想到食物时，与其他可能更政治化的虚假和误导信息不同，我心想：这不就是食物吗？这有什么大不了的？

And I think that it really speaks to the power of online influence, because when I thought about food, contrary to other forms of mis and disinformation, which are perhaps more political, I thought, oh, it's just food, you know, it's just food, what does it kind of matter?

但是

But

实际上——我们的防线

actually- So our barriers

在食物面前就崩塌了。

are down when it's food.

是的，很多人发现，他们可以通过利用人们的健康痛苦来赚很多钱，因为这种痛苦是真实存在的。

Yes, and a lot of people have found that they can make a lot of money out of people's health pain in some ways, because there is genuine pain.

我认为这充分表明，存在一种在线经济，它依赖于各种误导性主张，而几乎不需要真正的知识或专业背景；与此同时，许多合格的专业人士，比如医生和真正的营养专家，他们花了多年时间研究营养学，却未必能得到这样的传播力度。

And I think it really shows that there is this kind of online economy that really thrives on all sorts of misleading claims and very little, I suppose, kind of knowledge or expertise, whilst, you know, a lot of qualified people, doctors, real nutritional experts who have spent a lot of years studying nutrition, perhaps not having that kind of amplification.

因此，我们正处在一个极不平等的环境中，错误信息完全淹没了更可靠的内容。

And so we are in a very uneven playing field where the misinformation really drowns out that more robust content.

西塞尔·西蒙斯。

Cecile Simmons.

如果你正在经历与饮食或身体形象相关的问题，请考虑寻求专业医疗人员的帮助。

If you are experiencing difficulties related to eating or body image, do consider contacting a health professional for support.

感谢今天参与我们节目的所有人，包括我们的听众萨莉提出的问题。

Thanks to everyone we've spoken to for today's programme, including our listener Sally for her question.

有什么是你希望我们深入调查的吗？

Is there anything you'd like us to look into?

请通过电子邮件foodchain@bbc.co.uk告诉我们你的想法。

Do let us know by emailing the foodchain@bbc.co.uk.

由我和整个团队——制作人莱克西·奥康纳和编辑莎拉·韦德森——感谢您的收听，我们下周再见。

From me and the rest of the team, producer, Lexi O'Connor, and editor, Sarah Wadeson, thanks for listening, and join us again next week.

对食物着迷吗？

Obsessed with food?

喜欢寻找最佳食谱吗？

Love finding the best recipes?

我是塞缪尔·戈德史密斯，美食作家、厨师，也是《好食物播客》的主持人。

I'm Samuel Goldsmith, food writer, cook, and host of the Good Food Podcast.

每周，我都会与顶级厨师、美食作家以及引领饮食方式变革的人士对话，这些真正让美食变得精彩的人。

Every week, I sit down with top chefs, food writers, and people at the forefront of changing the way we eat, All the people who really make food great.

如果你喜欢美味的餐食和精彩的对话，请在Spotify上搜索《Good Food Podcast》，每周二更新新鲜 episodes。

If you love a good meal and a great conversation, search for the Good Food Podcast on Spotify, serving up fresh episodes every Tuesday.

我们在那里见。

See you there.

痴迷于美食？

Obsessed with food?

喜欢寻找最佳食谱吗？

Love finding the best recipes?

我是塞缪尔·戈德史密斯，美食作家、厨师，也是《Good Food Podcast》的主持人。

I'm Samuel Goldsmith, food writer, cook, and host of the Good Food Podcast.

每周，我都会与顶级厨师、美食作家以及引领饮食方式变革的人士畅谈。

Every week, I sit down with top chefs, food writers, and people at the forefront of changing the way we eat.

所有真正让美食变得出色的人。

All the people who really make food great.

如果你喜欢美味的餐食和精彩的对话，请在Spotify上搜索《Good Food Podcast》。

If you love a good meal and a great conversation, search for the Good Food Podcast on Spotify.

每周二更新新鲜节目。

Serving up fresh episodes every Tuesday.

那里见。

See you there.