电子游戏食物

本BBC播客由英国境外的广告支持。

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside The UK.

对食物着迷吗？

Obsessed with food?

喜欢寻找最佳食谱吗？

Love finding the best recipes?

我是塞缪尔·戈德史密斯，美食作家、厨师，也是《Good Food》播客的主持人。

I'm Samuel Goldsmith, food writer, cook, and host of the Good Food podcast.

每周，我都会与顶级厨师、美食作家以及引领饮食变革前沿的人士坐下来交谈，他们才是真正让美食变得精彩的人。

Every week, I sit down with top chefs, food writers, and people at the forefront of changing the way we eat, all the people who really make food great.

如果你热爱一顿美味的餐食和一场精彩的对话，请在Spotify上搜索《Good Food》播客，每周二更新新鲜内容。

If you love a good meal and a great conversation, search for the Good Food Podcast on Spotify, serving up fresh episodes every Tuesday.

到时候见。

See you there.

从像素化的苹果到治愈药水，电子游戏中的食物所扮演的角色远不止于补充你的生命值。

From pixelated apples to healing potions, food in video games does far more than fill up your health bar.

它讲述故事，构建世界，有时还会让你馋得不行。

It tells stories, builds worlds and sometimes makes you really hungry.

这是来自BBC世界服务的《食物链》，我是露丝·亚历山大，本周我们将探讨电子游戏如何利用食物让玩家沉浸于幻想世界，以及这如何促使人们重新审视现实中的食物体系。

This is the Food Chain from the BBC World Service with me Ruth Alexander and this week we're exploring how video games use food to immerse players in a fantasy world and how that might make them look anew at food systems in the real world.

与我一同参与的是三位来自游戏界的嘉宾，其中两位看起来特别高兴能来到这里。

Joining me are three guests from the gaming universe, two looking particularly pleased to be here.

我知道，卡桑德拉和哈丽特，你们非常兴奋能与蒂姆在虚拟房间中相见。

I understand, Cassandra and Harriet, you are very excited to be in the virtual room with Tim.

是的。

Yes.

没错。

Yeah.

这是游戏界的传奇人物。

This is gaming royalty.

元老级人物。

OG.

蒂姆就像是游戏界的皇室成员。

Tim is like games industry royalty.

希望你不会介意我这么说，但我们都是你们家的忠实粉丝。

I hope you don't mind me saying that, but we're we're big fans of this house.

我即将进入制作游戏的第四十五个年头。

I'm about to start my forty fifth year of making games.

所以，我可能比你们所有人，以及所有听众都年长，仅就我的职业生涯而言。

So I'm probably older than all of you and everyone listening in just my career.

而且还是个传奇。

And a legend.

传奇。

Legend.

经验丰富。

Experienced.

蒂姆·凯恩来自美国西雅图，1981年就开始从事电子游戏开发，那时《吃豆人》和《大金刚》正风靡一时。

Tim is Tim Cain from Seattle in The United States, who started out as a video game developer in 1981, back when Pac Man and Donkey Kong reigned supreme.

他最著名的作品是角色扮演游戏《辐射》和《外域》。

He's best known for the role player games or RPGs Fallout and The Outer Worlds.

和我们在一起的还有来自美国俄勒冈州波特兰的卡桑德拉·里德。

Also with us is Cassandra Reeder from Portland, Oregon in The US.

她以‘极客厨师’为名，撰写基于电子游戏食物的食谱书籍。

Going by the name The Geeky Chef, she writes recipe books based on video game food.

而在英格兰米德兰兹的莱斯特，是Dovetail Games的社区经理哈丽特·莫里斯。

And in Leicester in the English Midlands is the community manager at Dovetail Games, Harriet Morris.

我首先问蒂姆：食物在电子游戏中有多重要？

I began by asking Tim, how important is food in video games?

食物，我正试着想想从哪里说起，因为它太重要了。

Food, it's I'm I'm trying to think of where to start because it's so important.

我主要制作角色扮演游戏，我做过的每一款游戏都至少把食物用作一种叙事工具，用来向玩家传达世界设定，而无需让角色直接说明、让玩家阅读书籍或观看过场动画。

I make primarily role playing games, and every game I've ever made has used food at the very minimum as kind of a lore delivery device to explain to the player what the world is without having to have characters tell them or have books they have to read or cinematics they have to sit through.

食物本身就在告诉玩家：这就是这个世界的样子。

It's just the food is explaining to them, this is what the world is.

在《辐射》中，你的角色开始游戏时，核战争已经发生近百年了。

In Fallout, there'd been a nuclear war almost a hundred years before your character's playing.

你从避难所中走出来，对这个世界一无所知。

And you come out of a vault, and you don't know anything about the world.

因此，你不仅会发现像核子可乐这样的旧品牌产品，以及世界中各种有品牌的食物，还会发现人们现在吃的东西，比如串在棍子上的鬣蜥。

So not only are you finding old branded products like Nuka Cola or all the different branded foods that are in the world, but you're also finding what people are eating now, like, you know, iguana on a stick.

这种‘过去的世界’与‘现在世界’之间的对比，无论玩家走到哪里，都得到了充分的体现。

And that juxtaposition between this is what the world used to be like and here's what it is now was driven home by no matter where the player went.

人们在吃东西，也在卖食物。

People were eating, and they were selling food.

你会找到各种可以拾取并食用的食物。

You were finding food as things you could pick up and and eat.

在角色扮演游戏中，消耗品通常在食用后会提供增益效果，但它们主要的作用是向玩家传达‘这个世界是什么样子的’。

And it it consumables in in RPGs tend to give you a a bonus when you eat them, but they primarily serve to tell the player this is what the world is like.

因此，这是一种微妙地提示玩家所进入场景的方式。

So it's a subtle indication of the scene that the player is entering into.

你会说这是一个强大的手段吗？

And would you say a powerful one?

是的。

Yeah.

每个人都需要食物。

Everybody gets food.

所以，当你想让玩家沉浸于你的角色扮演游戏世界时，食物是一个绝佳的方式。

So when you wanna make people immersive into your role playing game world, food is a great way.

许多角色扮演游戏还加入了食物制作机制，以进一步增强沉浸感。

Often, RPGs have crafting of food to be even get closer.

食物是游戏机制的一部分，玩家必须与食物互动才能生存。

It's it's part of the game's mechanics that the player will interact with food just to survive.

在赋予角色扮演游戏意义和共鸣方面，食物是否能从多个层面发挥作用？

Are there several layers in which food can work for you in terms of imbuing a role playing game with meaning and resonance?

几十年来，我尝试了无数方法，只为让玩家真正沉浸在游戏中。

I've tried so many things over the decades to get people really immersed into the games.

自从九十年代以来，我几乎在每一款游戏中都加入了食谱，让玩家能够实际烹饪出游戏中找到的食物。

I've included recipes in every game, almost every game I made since the nineties so people could actually cook food that they find in the game.

从松饼、饼干到咸味食物，各种都有；最近，我还在一个叫《如何饮酒》的YouTube频道上出现过。

And it's been everything from muffins and cookies and savory food to recently, I was on another YouTube channel called How to Drink.

这是一个叫格雷格的人做的节目，他会为不同的电子游戏制作美食内容。

It's a guy named Greg makes food, and he does episodes for different video games.

他做了一整期关于核子可乐的节目，还寄给我几瓶，我们当场喝了。

And he did a whole Nuka Cola episode, and he sent me the bottles, and we drank them on air.

所以我和他一起喝核子可乐，尽可能还原了《辐射》宇宙中它的制作方式。

So I was drinking Nuka Cola with him based on as well as we could figure out, how it was made in the Fallout universe.

这种方式让人们与游戏产生了一种你无法通过其他方式建立的连接。

And that just connects people into the game in a way that you can't do.

所以核子可乐是这个后核战末日世界中一种新型可乐。

So Nuka Cola was a new type of cola in this post nuclear apocalyptic world.

是的。

Yeah.

核子可乐在战争前就有多种口味，包括一种可能具有放射性的口味。

Nuka Cola was made before the war in all these different flavors, including one that may have been radioactive.

战争结束后，人们用瓶盖作为货币。

And then after the war, people used bottle caps for money.

所以当你找到核子可乐时会非常兴奋，因为你不仅能喝它，还能保留瓶盖，用作游戏世界中的货币。

So Nuka Cola was something you were really excited to find because not only could you drink it, but then you could keep the bottle cap and use it as money in the world.

现实中它是什么味道？

What did it taste like in reality?

他做了三种口味。

Well, he made three flavors.

我最喜欢樱桃味的核子可乐。

I liked the cherry Nuka the best.

它非常美味。

It was delicious.

普通的核子可乐味道很淡，有一种香草味，我很喜欢。

Regular nuka cola was very I had a very vanilla flavor, which I liked.

他还推出了量子味，对我来说有种柑橘热带风味。

And he also made, Quantum, which to me felt kind of citrusy tropical.

所以他做得非常好。

So he did a great job.

太棒了。

It was amazing.

在游戏里花了这么多时间了解Nuka Cola后，现在真的喝到它，感觉很奇怪。

And it's weird to be drinking Nuka Cola in real life after doing so much about it in the games.

那时它没有放射性。

It wasn't radioactive then.

他说没有。

He said it wasn't.

好的。

Okay.

我没有盖革计数器。

I don't have a Geiger counter.

我没法检查。

I couldn't check it.

我信了他的话。

I took his word for it.

好的。

Okay.

蒂姆，你在游戏中用食物来表达对现实生活中食物的某种看法吗？

Tim, are are you using food in the game to say something about food in real life?

在一些游戏中，是的。

In some of the games, yeah.

我们用食物来反映我们的现实食物其实也没好到哪儿去。

We were using food to kind of reflect that our food isn't any better.

我的意思是，你看到游戏里的东西会笑，觉得太恶心了，没人会吃那个。

I mean, you laugh at what you see in the game, you're like, that's gross, nobody would eat that.

而我说，可事实是。

And I'm like, and yet.

《外域》中的自动售货机里塞满了含有防腐剂、用奇怪原料制成的食物。

The the vending machines in outer worlds are bursting with food filled with preservatives and made with gross things.

猜猜怎么着？

Well, guess what?

也许我们的食物也差不多。

Maybe our food is kind of the same.

我认为，游戏与现实世界之间最薄弱的那层伪装就在这里，我们借此做出了一些评论，而我相信没人会忽略这一点。

That's where I think the veneer between the game and the real world was the thinnest that we were making some commentary there that I don't think was lost on anybody.

卡桑德拉，你一直以复刻幻想食物为生，包括来自电子游戏的食物。

Cassandra, you've made a living out of recreating fantasy food, including food from video games.

比如，是什么让你开始做这个的？

Like, what got you into this?

我于2008年创建了我的博客，当时还没有很多人做这种内容。

So I created my blog back in 2008, and back then, there wasn't a lot of people doing this kind of content yet.

这还是一种全新的事物。

It was a brand new sort of thing.

有多大胃口呢，开个玩笑，你发现外界对此有多感兴趣？

How big an appetite, excuse the pun, did you find there was out there?

一开始只是有一点点，然后就突然失控了。

At first, it was just sort of like a little bit, and then it sort of just spiraled.

不仅是我，还有其他人也在做这个。

There was not only me, and then there was other people doing it.

整个事情就这样突然冒了出来。

And it was this whole thing just sort of sprouted up.

现在每个月都有游戏主题的烹饪书出版。

And now we have, you know, gaming cookbooks coming out every month.

但那时候，确实没那么多。

But at the time, it was, yeah, not so much.

你的厨房橱柜里是不是塞满了最奇怪的食材？

Are your kitchen cupboards just filled with the weirdest ingredients?

哦，是啊。

Oh, yeah.

是啊。

Yeah.

天哪。

Oh, man.

如果你看到我的厨房，你会以为我是个女巫。

If you saw my kitchen, you would think I was a witch.

里面有什么？

What's in there?

有很多东西。

It's a lot of things.

我有很多蝴蝶豆花，这是一种天然的使食物变蓝或变色的方法。

I have a lot of butterfly pea flower, which is like a natural way to make things blue or change color.

我还有很多闪粉之类的东西，让食物闪闪发亮。

I have a lot of, like, little glitter things to make things sparkly.

还有很多非常奇特的香草，用来制造不同的风味和颜色，比如紫薯和斑兰，它们分别会让食物变成紫色和绿色。

A lot of just really weird herbs, things to make things different kinds of flavors and colors, you know, like ube and pandan, and those things will make things purple and green respectively.

哦，还有我的酒柜。

Just oh, and my liquor cabinet.

你也不想知道那里面是什么。

You don't want to see that either.

那简直没法看。

It's it's untenable.

哈丽特，作为一个游戏爱好者，食物对你来说有多重要？

And and Harriet, as a as a games enthusiast, like, how important to you, the gamer, is food?

你会注意游戏中的食物吗？

Are you taking notice of the food in games?

一直都很注意。

Always.

这超级、超级有代入感。

It's super, super immersive.

我特别喜欢完全沉浸在游戏中，尤其是那些有烹饪机制的游戏，比如烹饪或钓鱼，任何需要我‘生存’的机制我都会用，因为尤其是RPG游戏，这能带来一种你平时得不到的强烈沉浸感。

One of the things I absolutely love is completely immersing myself in a game, especially if it has a cooking mechanic, like cooking or fishing, any sort of I need to live mechanic, I'll use it because especially with RPGs, it gives this huge amount of immersion that you wouldn't normally get.

游戏中的一些食物看起来非常美味。

Some food in games looks delicious.

在游戏社区中，已经出现了席卷互联网的完整梗。

In the gaming community, there's entire memes that have taken over the Internet.

人们至今仍在谈论甜卷。

People still talk about sweet rolls.

这是我一生中见过的最诱人的东西之一。

One of the most delicious looking things I've ever seen in my entire life.

出自哪里？

From where?

这是来自《上古卷轴》。

That is from The Elder Scrolls.

卡桑德拉，你做过甜卷吗？

Cassandra, have you made sweet rolls?

哦，当然做过。

Oh, yeah.

当然。

Absolutely.

那个在当年真的火了。

That one actually really took off, back in the day.

那么，它们尝起来和看起来一样好吃吗？

Well, did they taste as good as they looked?

那看起来真美味。

That looked delicious.

谢谢。

Thank you.

是的。

Yes.

它们做得非常好。

They turned out really well.

它们看起来简直能闻到香味。

They look like, can almost smell it.

是的。

Yeah.

蒂姆之前谈到了外层世界。

Tim was talking about the outer worlds earlier.

有一件事还清晰地印在我的脑海里。

There's something that sticks fresh in my mind.

我不知道该怪谁，但在外层世界有一种叫囊猪的东西，这是我最不喜欢的。

I don't know who to blame for this, but there's something in the outer worlds called cyst pigs, and it's my least favorite.

这已经根深蒂固了。

That's ingrained.

这是一段永远烙印在我脑海里的诅咒般知识。

That is cursed knowledge that is in my head forever now.

不幸的是，我将永远知道囊猪是什么、它们长什么样、该怎么吃。

I will forever, unfortunately, know about cyst pigs and what they are and how you eat them.

那是我。

That was me.

那是你吗？

Was that you?

哦，是的。

Oh, Yeah.

哦，那个——哦，这真是诅咒的知识。

Oh, the- Oh, it's so cursed.

当时只有我和另一位联合导演伦纳德·巴尔斯基，我们构想出整个《外层世界》游戏的核心设定：这个围绕另一颗恒星的殖民地的食物缺乏营养。

It was just me and the other co director, Leonard Barsky, and we were coming up with The whole Outer Worlds game is based on food in this colony around another star is not nutritious.

他们不知道原因，但他们在殖民地上种植的食物，营养价值远低于应有水平。

They don't know why, but they're growing food at the colony and it's way less nutritious than it should be.

他们尝试了多种方法来解决人口的粮食问题，其中一种是一个科学家提出的主意。

They have many different ways they're trying to account to feed the population, but one of them was a scientist who had an idea.

他说：嘿，当你去果树上摘苹果或梨的时候，树本身并不会受损。

He said, hey, when you go to a fruit tree and you take an apple or a pear off of it, the tree is still fine.

那我们为什么不养一种患癌的猪呢？癌囊长在体表，会自然脱落，可以食用，而且味道鲜美，吃起来像培根。

So why don't we grow a pig that has cancer, but the cancer cysts are on the surface and they fall off and they're edible and they're delicious and they taste like bacon.

他们基因培育了六十头猪。

And they genetically bred sisty pigs.

当我们去说服出版商制作这款游戏时，我带了一个毛绒猪玩具，并在上面粘上了带魔术贴的小绒球。

And when we went to the publisher to convince them to make the game, I took a stuffed pig animal, and I put Velcro attached little pomp pompompompuffs on it.

在演示会上，我把这个玩具放在会议室里，说：在那之前，我不会回答任何关于这个的问题。

And when we went to the presentation, I sat it in the conference room, and I said, I'm not gonna take questions on this until later.

然后我们展示了整个《外层空间》游戏。

And then we showed off the entire Outer Worlds.

最后，我认为出版商的总裁或首席执行官说：我需要知道那只猪为什么放在会议桌上。

And finally, I think the president or CEO of the publisher was like, I need to know what that pig is doing on the conference table.

于是我回答：让我给你讲讲西西猪。

And I'm like, let me tell you about Sissy Pigs.

哦。

Oh.

那真是一场难忘的会议。

And that was quite a meeting.

这巩固了合同，出版商也因此理解了这款游戏，因为这是一个极端的例子，展示了他们为养活人口所付出的惊人努力。

And it cemented kind of the contract, and the and the publisher now understood the game because it's a gross example of the length they're going through to try to feed a population.

再稍微解释一下这个游戏，你所面对的是一个反乌托邦的未来，巨大的资本主义垄断已经摧毁了许多东西，包括粮食供应。

To explain that game a little bit more, you're looking into a a kind of dystopian future where there's this kind of mega capitalist takeover that has ruined a lot, including the food supply.

所以，以游戏中你将要创造的那些可怕食物之一为例——你认为正是这个例子帮你赢得了合同吗？

So taking that example of one of the horrible foods you're gonna create in the game, pretty much, what, won you the contract, you think?

我觉得是的。

I think so.

游戏中还有很多其他可怕的事情，但这个例子特别能引起人们的本能反感，其他例子都没有这种效果。

There were a lot of other examples of horrific things that were going on, but that one was just so it it got people in a way viscerally that the other ones didn't.

所以我带了这只猪，因为它看起来就像一只可爱的毛绒小猪，身上还带着绒球。

And so that's why I brought the pig, because it looked like a cute stuffed animal pig with pom poms on it.

但当我解释了它所代表的含义，以及在游戏中它们确实存在时。

But when I explained what it represented and that you actually they were in game.

这些是游戏中你可以找到、猎杀并食用的动物，还有各种食谱，你可以去商店购买这种动物的名字，他们称之为‘Borst’。

These were animals in game that you could find and harvest and eat, and there were recipes for things, and you could go to the store and buy the name of the cyst, they called it Borst.

你还可以去商店购买‘我无法相信这并不是博斯特’、博斯特蛋糕和博斯特面包。

And you could go to the store and buy I Can't Believe It's Not Borst and Borst cakes and Borst loaf.

我们做了很多你可以买到的东西。

We made a lot of things you could get.

卡桑德拉，你和西斯蒂猪一起去过那里吗？

Cassandra, have you gone there with Sisty Pig?

你会去那里吗？

Will you go there?

我没有去过。

I have not.

我觉得得有人付我钱。

I feel like someone's gotta pay me.

如果有人付我钱，我会去的。

I I would do it if someone pay me.

我有个塔可博斯特外卖。

I have a taco cysti pick up.

你有没有做过专门设计成难吃的食品？

Have you ever made a food that's designed to be disgusting?

有。

Yes.

你会惊讶地发现，最受欢迎的一些食物恰恰是那些本来就不想好吃、甚至只是玩笑性质的。

And you would be surprised that some of the most requested things are the ones that are not meant to be appealing or even meant to be jokes.

这些才是被点得最多的。

Those are the ones that get requested the most often.

我可以说，过去最受欢迎的食谱之一就是《塞尔达》里的岩石牛排，那真的是石头。

And I would say, one of my most requested recipes back in the day was rock sirloin from Zelda, which is quite literally rocks.

就是那种大石头、巨石。

As in big large stones, boulders.

没错。

Yep.

那就是石头。

They're rocks.

《塞尔达》中有一种生物会吃这些石头，显然很多人也想吃它们。

A certain creature in Zelda eats them, and most people felt like they wanted to eat them too, apparently.

当我制作《星空》时，大家最想看到的东西之一就是‘方块’，那是一种不太像《索伦特绿》的情况，但它们就是一些来源不明、被塑造成其他食物形状的方块状食物。

And when I did Starfield, one of the things that everyone wanted to see was chunks, which was, you know, sort of a not quite Soylent Green situation, but they're just cubes of food with unknown origins shaped into other foods, basically.

不过它们看起来不错。

They look good, though.

它们看起来不错，因为……我不知道，反正就是看起来不错。

They look good because, I don't know, they do look good.

设计它们的时候特别有趣。

They were a lot of fun to figure out.

我跟你说吧。

I'll tell you that.

你做了哪种口味的‘方块’？

What chunks flavor did you make?

哦，我制作了整个《星空》官方食谱。

Oh, well, I did the entire Starfield official cookbook.

所以我做了所有的。

So I did all of them.

我每一个都做了。

I did every single one of them.

你知道吗？

Oh, you know what?

我没有做鸡肉，因为我感觉我们已经有牛肉了，所以不需要再做鸡肉。

I did not do the chicken just because I felt like we already had the beef, so we didn't need to do the chicken.

你们能获得多少信息？

How much do you have to go on?

也就是说，你们从游戏中能获得多少信息？

Like, how much information are you getting from a game?

因为显然，你们在游戏里是尝不到食物的。

Because obviously, you can't taste the food really in the game.

你们也闻不到气味。

You can't smell it.

那么你怎么知道这些东西到底是怎么做出来的？

So how do you know how this stuff is really made?

嗯，你和我一样做这个很久了，基本上只要看看就能弄明白。

Well, you've been doing this as long as I have you kind of can figure that out just by looking at things.

但没错，这取决于游戏和开发商。

But, yeah, I mean, it depends on the game and the developer.

我的意思是，蒂姆总是很棒。

I mean, Tim's always great.

蒂姆很棒是因为他给了你食谱，对吧？

Well, Tim's great because he gives you the recipes, isn't he?

但我猜并不是所有游戏都会在食物中附带食谱。

But I guess not all games include a recipe with the with the food in them.

如果有制作系统，那就总是很好。

If there's crafting, it's always good.

因为如果有制作系统，就会有食材。

Because if there's crafting, there's ingredients.

如果游戏中有显示食物的游戏精灵，那就更好了。

And if there's a game sprite that shows the food, that's even better.

我通常只需要这些就能工作了。

And I can usually work with just that.

游戏精灵就是食物的图像。

A sprite is just an image of the food.

第二部分是研究食物。

And the second part is researching the food.

比如，如果你在开发一个沙漠星球，了解沙漠居民如何适应环境、使用哪些食材、如何烹饪，以及这与丛林等更茂盛地区有何不同，就会非常有帮助。

So, like, if you're developing on a desert planet, it's really helpful to know how do people who live in the desert adapt to their environment, what kind of ingredients are they using, how do they cook, like, is it different than, you know, somewhere more lush like a jungle.

所有这些因素都是我考虑的内容。

All of that stuff is things that I consider.

如果是中世纪背景，你就得研究中世纪的食谱。

And, you know, if it's medieval, you wanna look at medieval recipe.

对食物如此着迷？

Obsessed with food?

喜欢寻找最好的食谱吗？

Love finding the best recipes?

我是塞缪尔·戈德史密斯，美食作家、厨师，也是《好食物播客》的主持人。

I'm Samuel Goldsmith, food writer, cook, and host of the Good Food Podcast.

每周，我都会与顶尖厨师、美食作家以及改变我们饮食方式的前沿人物对话，这些才是真正让美食变得精彩的人。

Every week, I sit down with top chefs, food writers, and people at the forefront of changing the way we eat, all the people who really make food great.

如果你热爱一顿美味的餐食和一场精彩的对话，请在Spotify上搜索《好食物播客》，每周二更新新鲜 episodes。

If you love a good meal and a great conversation, search for the Good Food Podcast on Spotify, serving up fresh episodes every Tuesday.

到时候见。

See you there.

您正在收听来自BBC世界服务的《食物链》。

You're listening to the Food Chain from the BBC World Service.

我是露丝·亚历山大。

I'm Ruth Alexander.

本周，我们将讨论电子游戏中的食物。

This week, we're talking about food in video games.

和我一起的是游戏爱好者哈丽特·莫里斯、卡桑德拉·里德，她撰写了充满奇幻美食食谱的烹饪书，以及拥有四十多年经验的电子游戏开发者蒂姆·凯恩。

Joining me are games enthusiast Harriet Morris Cassandra Reeder, who writes cookbooks filled with fantasy food recipes and Tim Cain, a video game developer with more than four decades experience.

我问蒂姆，游戏公司幕后存在着怎样的饮食文化。

I asked Tim what kind of food culture exists behind the screens at games companies.

我非常喜欢烹饪。

I like cooking a lot.

我已经做了很久了。

I've been doing it forever.

实际上，我从2013年左右就开始经营一个巧克力博客。

And I actually have a chocolate blog I've been keeping since 2013 or something.

上面记录了大约2000种巧克力。

It's got about 2,000 chocolates on it.

所以我一直希望能在我的游戏中加入这种元素。

So I always wanted to have this in my games.

因此，我会使用家庭食谱。

So I would take family recipes.

我会采纳同事们提出的请求。

I would take things that people at work would request.

比如在《辐射》开发期间，大家特别想要肉桂面包。

Like, during fallout, cinnamon bread was really requested.

那是我第一次负责的项目，我觉得没人应该比我工作得更多。

It was the first project I was in charge of, and I felt like no one should work more than me.

所以我每天都是第一个到、最后一个走，这并不健康，但那是九十年代，没人在意这些。

So I tried to be the first one in and the last one out every day, which was not very healthy, but it was the nineties, so no one cared about

那样。

that.

所以我每天都会把前一天晚上做的食物带过来。

So what I would do is I'd bring in whatever I made the night before.

其中最受欢迎的是我用面包机做的肉桂面包。

And one of the most requested things became a cinnamon bread that I'd actually put into a bread machine.

所以我每天早上八点左右会带着刚出炉、热腾腾的面包来公司。

So I'd bring it in piping hot at about eight in the morning.

所以，幕后你所处理的东西，都是由你自己美味的烹饪驱动的。

So behind the scenes, the stuff you're working with are fueled by your own delicious cooking.

那么，你是如何从这种在办公室里享受的温馨家常菜，过渡到游戏中那些更奇幻甚至怪诞的创意呢？

And how do you get from this kind of lovely home cooked food that you're enjoying in the office to some of the more fanciful and even grotesque creations in the game?

你是怎么想出这些点子的？

How do you come up with them?

黑暗而生动的想象力。

A dark and vivid imagination.

有些创意最初是描述外星球的饥荒，然后团队中的很多人就深深投入进去了。

Some of them were we started off describing the famine, say, in outer worlds, and then a lot of people on the team really got into it.

他们说：‘我们应该做这个，也应该做那个。’

And they were like, oh, we should do this, and we should do this.

我还加入了‘西西猪’，本以为大家只会看到包装好的东西。

And let's have a whole like, I just put in Sissy Pigs and figured you'd just see packaged stuff.

但有一位艺术家说：‘如果我们搞一个完整的屠宰场呢？’

But one artist was like, what if we do a whole abattoir?

我说，你先做了给我看看。

And I'm like, you do that, show it to me first.

结果确实够恶心的。

And it was appropriately disgusting.

而且，它还支持了游戏的剧情和核心主题。

And, also, it supported the game's storyline and main themes.

所以最重要的是，一切都不是为了别的，主要是为了好玩。

So that's the big thing is nothing is done everything is done primarily for fun.

我的意思是，归根结底，我做的就是让电脑发出哔哔啵啵的声音，但这些必须服务于剧情。

I mean, ultimately, all I do is make computers go beep boop, but it has to support the storyline.

必须符合游戏设定。

It has to support the setting.

必须契合游戏机制，这正是我喜欢食物的原因——因为吃东西是人的天性，可以带来增益，有时也会带来减益，只是为了更好地玩游戏。

It has to support the game mechanics, which is why I love food because it's a natural thing for people to wanna eat and get buffs or sometimes debuffs to just play the game.

所以，那些真正热衷于玩游戏的玩家会意识到，食物在机制上能给他们带来加成。

And so people who are really into just playing the game will recognize that food is something that mechanically can give them a bonus.

什么是增益和减益？

What's a buff and a debuff?

哦，当你吃食物或喝东西时，我们会给你一个基于时间的临时加成或惩罚，通常与食物相关。

Oh, when you eat a piece of food or you drink something, we give you a temporary time based either bonus to your character or a penalty, usually related to the food.

所以它可能会让你的耐力恢复得更快。

So it might make your stamina regenerate faster.

或者，在生存模式中，你必须管理自己的口渴和饥饿，这些数值会逐渐下降。

Or, we had a survival mode where you actually had to manage your thirst and hunger, and it would make those meters go down.

所以你必须吃东西。

So you'd have to eat.

如果你找到了一块面包，你就得吃掉它。

If you found a board's loaf, you'd have to eat it.

所以你提出一个想法，然后大家都会觉得：好。

So you come up with an idea, and you all think, yes.

好。

Yes.

就是这样。

That's it.

这太恶心了。

That's absolutely disgusting.

是的。

Yes.

我们就做这个食物。

We'll do that food.

全都很好吃。

All delicious.

把这些想法转化为屏幕上的食物有多容易？

How easy is it to translate those ideas to food on the screen?

因为你无法让它散发香味。

Because you can't make it smell.

而且，玩家也无法把它拿在手里。

And, you know, the players can't hold it in their hands.

他们尝不到它。

They can't taste it.

我们游戏中有两位出色的二维艺术家和概念艺术家，我们会向他们描述这些想法。

We had great two d artists and concept artists for the game, and we would just describe it to them.

我仍然记得概念艺术家布里。

Like, I I still remember concept artist Brie.

我只是说，我希望这个博斯特看起来更凝固一点。

I just said, I want this Borst looking a little more coagulated.

你能做到吗？

Can you do that?

她回答说，我完全明白你的意思。

And she's like, I know exactly what you mean.

她创作了一张游戏中的图像，看起来像果冻一样滴落，虽然这不是你愿意吃的东西，但当人们看到它时却很受欢迎。

And she made an image in the game that it looks gel like and dripping, and it's not like something you'd ever wanna eat, but it was kind of popular when people saw it.

你说过，你游戏中的某些食物和食谱来自你的家人或你认识的人。

You said that there are some foods in your games and some recipes that came from family, people you know.

那么，哪些是其中一些更个人化的食谱呢？

So who who's which is some of the more personal recipes in there?

我在《奥秘》中加入了一款香蕉面包。

I included a banana bread in Arcanum.

这是我妈妈的香蕉面包，我想她是从她妈妈那里学来的。

It was my mom's banana bread, and I think she got it from her mother.

这是我小时候特别喜欢的一道点心，和我吃过的很多香蕉面包都不同。

And it was just something I loved as a kid, and it was very different than a lot of banana bread, that I had tasted.

所以我把它加入了游戏。

So I included it.

我重新设计了它，想象有一个小矮人厨师制作了它。

I rethemed it, imagining there was, like, a little halfling cook who made it.

你可以在一个兽人身上找到一个包，包里有一张写有食谱的纸和一些小矮人的部分。

And it was something that was found you find an orc with a bag, and the bag has the recipe on a piece of paper and then halfling parts.

所以这个东西在游戏中非常贴合，但玩家们真的会去制作它。

And so it's very in game, this this thing, but people made it.

这是在两千年初的时候，人们在网上发帖说：嘿。

And this is back in the early two thousands, and people were posting online, hey.

我找到了这个食谱并做了，味道其实很不错。

I found this recipe and I made it, and it's actually pretty good.

我有时会把这些发给我妈妈，说：你看。

And I I would sometimes send those to my mom and go, look.

很多人在享用你的香蕉面包。

A lot of people are enjoying your banana bread.

哦，她会怎么说？

Oh, what would she say?

她其实不太理解。

She she didn't really understand.

她只是说：这真贴心。

She was like, well, that's sweet.

真好。

That's nice.

卡桑德拉，你从电子游戏中吃过的最好吃、最美味的食物是什么？

Cassandra, what's the best food, the tastiest food you've had from a video game?

我经常会回到《塞尔达》里的耶托汤，因为那是南瓜和山羊奶酪汤，这正是我的幸福之地。

I do return to Yeto soup from Zelda because it's a pumpkin and goat cheese soup, and that's just kind of my happy place.

而且每年复活节我都会做甜卷面包。

And I do make sweet rolls, like, every Easter.

所以我不知道。

So I don't know.

我真的无法回答这个问题，因为所有东西都很好吃，即使它们本该是难吃的。

I can't I can't really answer that question because everything has been good, even if it's supposed to be gross.

嗯，我本来想说，这怎么可能呢？

Well, I was gonna say, how can that be?

那是因为你在解读这些食物时，用自己喜欢的食材进行了替换吗？

Well, that's because you are interpreting these things and substituting with ingredients you like?

是的。

Yes.

我总是会保留一些令人反感的元素。

I do always try to have the element of the gross.

比如，如果某种东西本应是苦的，我可能会用西柚、苦艾酒之类的东西来增添苦味。

Like, if if it's something that's supposed to be bitter, for instance, maybe I'll use grapefruit or tonic or something to make it have a bitter element.

你必须在风味上与其他成分平衡，这样才不会难以接受，甚至可能很好吃，你知道的。

You just have to balance that flavor wise with other things so it's still tolerable or even good, you know.

如果做得好，苦味也可以是一种不错的味道。

Bitter can be a nice flavor if you do it well.

所以你会融入那种‘令人反感’的元素，无论是视觉上还是味道上，但主要还是让它好吃。

So you incorporate the grossness, whether that's visually or with the flavor, but, you know, mostly make it taste good.

你有没有发现，电子游戏里的食物会影响你玩游戏时吃的东西？

And do you find that the food in a video game will influence what you're eating while you're gaming?

有。

Yes.

就我个人而言，我一直都是这样做的。

For me, personally, I've always done that.

这一直是我一贯的做法。

That's always been a thing for me.

如果我在玩《塞尔达》，我可能会给自己做点南瓜汤，或者喝杯牛奶，因为这是《塞尔达》。

If I'm playing Zelda, I might I might make myself some pumpkin soup or I might have a glass of milk because it's Zelda.

或者如果我在玩《辐射》，我可能会喝瓶可乐，假装它是

Or if I'm playing Fallout, you know, I might have a a nice cola and pretend that it's

我正想说这个。

new I for was just about to say that.

这很提神。

It's refreshing.

哈丽特，你玩游戏时通常吃些什么？

Harriet, what do you tend to eat when you're gaming?

我的意思是，你玩游戏时会吃东西吗？

I mean, do you eat when you're gaming?

也许你根本不吃。

Maybe you don't.

我会吃。

I do.

我在打游戏时确实会吃东西。

I do eat when I'm gaming.

我通常会选择不会弄脏手柄、键盘或鼠标的食物。

It tends to be things that is not gonna get my controller or keyboard and mouse dirty.

我喜欢喝可乐，尤其是玩《辐射》的时候，因为那种氛围很契合——我最想要的东西到底是什么？

I do like a cola, especially if I'm if I'm playing Fallout, there's just the messaging works because I'm just I desperately do know what I want more than anything in the world?

我真想喝一杯日落沙士汽水，但我喝不到。

I'd love a sunset sarsaparilla, but I can't.

在英国，我们没有这种东西。

We don't have anything like that in The UK.

我们什么都没有。

We have nothing.

那是什么，蒂姆？

What's that, Tim?