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对食物着迷吗？
Obsessed with food?
喜欢寻找最佳食谱吗？
Love finding the best recipes?
我是塞缪尔·戈德史密斯，美食作家、厨师，也是《Good Food》播客的主持人。
I'm Samuel Goldsmith, food writer, cook, and host of the Good Food podcast.
每周，我都会与顶级厨师、美食作家以及引领饮食变革前沿的人士坐下来交谈，他们才是真正让美食变得精彩的人。
Every week, I sit down with top chefs, food writers, and people at the forefront of changing the way we eat, all the people who really make food great.
如果你热爱美味的餐食和精彩的对话，请在Spotify上搜索《Good Food》播客，每周二更新新鲜内容。
If you love a good meal and a great conversation, search for the Good Food Podcast on Spotify, serving up fresh episodes every Tuesday.
到时候见。
See you there.
我有两书架的食谱书，包括意大利菜、印度菜、快手菜、慢炖菜和甜点。
I have two shelves of cookbooks, Italian recipes, Indian, quick dishes, slow dishes, puddings.
有些是礼物，有些是我买的，还有些是继承来的。
Some were gifts, some I've bought, and others inherited.
前几天我打开这本，一张我奶奶手写的酥皮点心食谱从里面掉了出来。
I opened this one the other day, and a recipe for flaky pastry fell out of it in my grandma's handwriting.
一小段家族历史的片段。
A little fragment of family history.
在今天由我，露丝·亚历山大，为您带来的BBC世界服务《食物链》节目中，我们将探讨食谱书持久的魅力。
In today's edition of the Food Chain from the BBC World Service with me, Ruth Alexander, we're examining the enduring appeal of cookbooks.
现在网上有这么多免费食谱。
There are so many free recipes online now.
那为什么还有人会购买实体版呢？
Why does anyone still buy physical copies of them?
这闻起来真香。
That smells good.
墙上摆满了书籍、油、炒锅和火塘烹饪用具。
The walls are filled with books, oils, wok, fire pit cooking.
这里所有的书都是食谱。
Everything here is a cookbook.
我们首先来到伦敦诺丁山的一家专业书店——《为厨师而写的书》，这家店由一位系着领带、围着围裙的优雅法国人埃里克·特罗耶共同经营，他正准备准备午餐。
We start inside a specialist bookshop in Notting Hill, London, Books for Cooks, co owned by Eric Troye, a rather dapper Frenchman in necktie and apron, who's getting ready to serve lunch.
你一定是埃里克。
You must be Eric.
是的。
Yes.
早上好。
Good morning.
早上好。
Good morning.
你好。
Hello.
你好。
Hello.
欢迎回家。
Welcome home.
谢谢。
Thank you.
发生什么事了？
What's going on?
今天是星期二，所以Books for Cooks今天是素食日。
Today is Tuesday, so it's vegetarian day for Books for Cooks.
所以你从书架上挑了这两本书，是的。
So you have plucked these two books from your shelves Yeah.
你准备了奶油绿汤和腰果蘑菇意大利面。
And you've got a creamy green soup and cashew and mushroom stroganoff.
今天菜单就是这些吗？
That's what's on the menu today?
没错。
That is.
是的。
Yep.
这就是我们要吃的，你也会吃。
That is what we're going to have and you're going to have too.
是的。
Yeah.
太好了。
Oh, excellent.
你是一家书店，但你们也是一家咖啡馆吗？
So you are a bookshop, but you you're a cafe as well?
不是。
No.
不是。
No.
不是。
No.
我们只是家书店。
We're just a bookshop.
我不是咖啡馆。
I'm not a cafe.
我不是餐厅。
I'm not a restaurant.
我不想做那件事。
I don't want to do that.
我们是一家书店，每周有四天会尝试推出一两本烹饪书。
We are a bookshop, and four days a week, we try a cookbook or two cookbooks.
你让这些书活了起来。
You're bringing the books to life.
没错。
That is correct.
至少我们知道我们卖的是什么。
And at least we know what we're selling.
我在切洋葱。
I'm cutting my onions.
我想把它们放进去。
I wanna put them in.
我不浪费东西。
I don't waste things.
所以如果要求只用白色部分，你就得把连着的绿色部分也吃掉。
So if the things ask for only the white part, you have to eat the green part that is with it.
所以我完全能理解为什么有人会来这里吃饭。
So I can very much see why someone would come to eat here.
但人们来这里买烹饪书时，想找的是什么？
But what are people looking for in a cookbook when they come here?
一般来说，人们都在寻找好点子，而且所有的书都很好。
Generally, what people are looking for good ideas, and definitely, all of the books are good.
没有一本差的书。
There's not a bad book.
它们都很漂亮。
They're all pretty.
它们都有图片，你知道的。
They're all, you know, with pictures.
它们都是彩色的。
They're all in color.
归根结底，它们都管用。
On the end of the day, they all work.
这是因为你精心挑选了这个收藏吗？
And that's because you have curated this collection carefully?
是的。
Yes.
我不是什么都买。
I don't buy everything.
因为我觉得现在，你可以在网上买到任何你想买的东西，根本不需要我。
Because I think today, you could buy whatever you want on the Internet, and you don't need me for that.
我希望店铺看起来美观，所以我不会收集所有的食谱书。
I want the shop to look nice, so I don't collect everything of cookbooks.
我只想要我喜欢的、肯定对顾客有用的那些，因为关于一片培根有100种做法，这种书不可能永远有用。
I only want the one I like, the one who's going to be useful for the customers definitely because, 100 things to do with the slice of bacon, it's not going to work forever.
所以那些写着‘100种做这个的方法’、‘50种那样的类型’的食谱书？
So cookbooks that say 100 ways to do this, 50 types of that?
我不买那种书。
I don't that.
那种类型的书。
The kind of books.
现在任何与图片有关的内容也包括在内。
And anything to do with the pictures now as well.
我停止这么做了，因为有很多女士来找我，说：埃里克，当我晚上过来，我们在你九十多岁时喝一杯水，我看到杰米·奥利弗在盯着我。
I stopped doing it because I've got a lot of ladies coming to me and say, Eric, when I come down, we go the night for a glass of water in my nineties, and I see Jamie Oliver staring at me.
他其实并不自信。
He's not really confident.
哦，所以顾客不想要封面上有名人面孔的食谱书。
Oh, so customers don't want cookbooks with famous faces on the front.
不。
No.
因为家庭厨房已经发生了变化。
Because the the kitchen, you know, home kitchen have changed.
现在这些书都很漂亮。
People there's books are beautiful.
所以，你可以把它们摆在厨房里展示。
So, you know, you could display them in your kitchen.
我的意思是，你不必只看书脊之类的。
I mean, you did not just have to see the spine or whatever.
所以，我理解这一点。
So I I do understand that.
你知道吗？
You know?
人们并不一定希望早上看到一位名人厨师对你微笑。
Don't don't necessarily want a celebrity chef smiling at you in the morning.
我喜欢薄荷。
I love mint.
喂？
Hello?
你好。
Hello.
你喝咖啡吗？
You do coffee?
不喝。
No.
我不喝咖啡，老兄。
I don't do coffee, mate.
我看到有人进来，以为你是个咖啡馆。
I see someone came in and thought you were a cafe.
咖啡店太多了。
There's so many coffee places.
我不打算收别人天价咖啡钱，还得事后洗杯子。
I'm not going to charge someone silly price for coffee and having to wash his cup after that.
我说了，不值得。
I said, it's not worth it.
现在我专注于午餐。
Now I concentrate on lunch.
我偷偷看了一眼那个。
And I have a peep inside that.
嗯。
Yeah.
真漂亮。
That's beautiful.
哦，这看起来真不错。
Oh, that does look good.
那应该不错。
That should be good.
嗯。
Yeah.
那应该不错。
That should be good.
闻起来确实很香。
Certainly smells good.
你自己在这里也已经三十年了。
And so you've been here yourself about thirty years.
在这段时间里，人们对食谱的需求有变化吗？
In that time, has what people are looking for in a cookbook changed?
没有。
No.
我不这么认为。
I don't think so.
只是烹饪书变得更好了。
It's just the cookbooks become better.
我每天都感到惊讶。
And I'm always amazed every day.
我的意思是，我们卖的书，简直令人难以置信。
I'm I mean, the books we're selling, I mean, it is just incredible.
你们卖多少本书？
How many books are you selling?
我不知道。
I don't know.
很多。
A lot.
我的意思是，够多了。
I mean, enough.
那吸引力在哪里呢？
What's the appeal then?
食谱的魅力在哪里？
What is the appeal of the cookbook?
我卖的是人们并不需要的东西。
I'm selling something people don't need.
你知道吗，你拿起手机，搜索烤鸡，然后就搜到265种做法。
You know, you take your phone, you look for roast chicken, you go 265.
你每天在手机上不都是在看烤鸡的做法吗？
Do you know you cover roast chicken every day on your phone?
故事是这样的：我不知道它们是否具有触感，但它们能激发你的想象力和创造力。
The story is that I don't know they're quite tactile, and it's going to appeal to your imagination and creativity.
食谱也跟潮流走，不是吗？
Cookbooks follow fashions, don't they?
什么什么，哦，
What what Oh,
是的。
yes.
是的。
Yes.
我的意思是，我们经历了中东风潮。
I mean, we went through The Middle East.
我们经历了姜的热潮。
We went through the ginger phase.
你知道，每个人都发现了姜。
You know, like everybody discovered ginger.
我们经历了发酵的阶段。
We we went through the fermentation phase.
在那之前，我们流行汤 broth。
Before that, we had the broth.
每个人都健康了一个月。
Everybody was so healthy for a month.
而现在，你懂的，它介于发酵和酸面团之间。
And now, you know, it's a bit between fermentation and sourdough.
但在冬天，一切都围绕着砂锅菜，你知道的，大家一起分享一大盘菜。
But, obviously, in the winter, it's all about casserole and, you know, sharing a big dish.
这家书店，你是否在某种程度上试图抵制潮流？
With this bookshop, are you trying to, to some degree, resist the fashions?
我不需要推销任何产品。
I don't need to push a product.
这不是我的职责。
I don't it's not my role.
我的职责是确保人们开心，并且他们能选到一本好书。
My role is to make sure people are happy, and and they choose a good book.
我拒绝出售同一个人写的超过两本书，因为人们不会用它们。
I refuse to sell, you know, more than two books by person because they won't use them.
真的吗？
Oh, really?
是的。
Yeah.
你会感到不知所措。
You will get overwhelmed.
最好买一本书，好好享受，然后过段时间再回来。
It's better to buy one book, enjoy it, and come back in silly.
去排队吧，这很酷。
Go start in queuing, which is cool.
那里真的有排队吗？
Is is there a queue there?
是的。
Yeah.
已经考虑过了。
Already is considered.
他们真的在排队吗？你看到了吗？
Are they queuing, did you?
是的。
Yeah.
嗯。
Yeah.
在街上？
On the street?
嗯。
Yeah.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
我不希望他们在店里。
I don't want them in a shop.
不。
No.
不。
No.
因为不行。
Because no.
不。
No.
因为被堵住了。
Because they're blocked.
人太多了。
There's too many people.
太窄了。
It's too narrow.
是的。
Yeah.
我们把一切都堵住了。
We block everything.
是的。
Yeah.
这时，我们让埃里克上去，自己溜了出去。
At this point, we let Eric get on and nipped outside.
哦，看看这个。
Oh, look at this.
一定是关于道歉的事。
It must be about sorry.
肯定是大约十五到二十个人在排队吃午饭。
Must be about, what, fifteen, twenty people queuing for lunch.
你好。
Hello.
你排在队伍最前面。
You were at the front of the queue.
干得好。
Well done.
我可以，哦，你在
I can Oh, where
哪里？
are you from?
委内瑞拉。
Venezuela.
这是块派尼。
It's piece of panny.
你在食谱中寻找什么？
It's What do you look for in a cookbook?
我
I
我觉得是不同的食谱，不同的食材。
think it's different recipes, different ingredients.
你在寻找灵感吗？
Are you looking for ideas?
是的。
Yes.
灵感。
Ideas.
不同的想法。
Different ideas.
我是个常客。
I'm a regular.
我住的地方离这儿大概只有五分钟路程，所以我几乎每天都来。
I live just about five minutes away from here, so I'm here basically every day.
我的意思是，这是最好的家常菜
I mean, it is it is the best home cooked
你在这个街区能吃到的最棒的一餐。
meal you could ask for in the neighborhood.
那你到底在食谱中寻找什么呢？
What are you looking for in a cookbook then?
你知道吗？
You know what?
能用的食谱。
Recipes that work.
我觉得简单快捷的餐食就好，我们都工作得很辛苦。
And I think just simple quick meals, we all work really hard.
我确实如此。
I certainly do.
当你回到家时，你想做些美味又营养、靠谱的饭菜。
And and when you get home, you want to make something that's delicious and that's nutritious that works.
大概有六本食谱书是我90%时间都在用的。
There are probably six cookbooks that I use 90% of the time.
那你呢？
And how about you?
你喜欢用食谱书吗？
Are you a cookbook fan?
我从网上找食谱。
I find recipes online.
其实我并不怎么做饭。
I actually I don't cook too much.
我住在纽约，所以很多时候我会点外卖。
I live in New York, so a lot of times I'm ordering things.
但当我有时间做饭时，我会在网上找食谱。
But when I do find the time to cook, I'm looking online.
为什么？
Why?
对我来说，上网找比翻 cookbook 更简单快捷。
It just feels easier and quicker for me than to go through a cookbook.
cookbook 有个小技巧，不是吗？
There's a tactic Tile thing to cookbooks isn't there.
能够翻看图片，看看哪些菜看起来诱人，有时还能听到食谱背后的小故事。
Being able to look through and see the photographs of things and find out what looks interesting and hearing the little narratives and the stories behind the recipes sometimes.
我的意思是，我认为 cookbook 真正有趣的地方在于，它们也讲述着故事。
I mean, that's what's really interesting about, I think, cookbooks is is they also have a story to tell.
让我们来听听一位有故事的食谱作者吧。
So let's talk to a cookbook writer with a story to tell.
梅拉·西斯瓦尼在南非出版她的第一本书《懒人麦科蒂厨房指南》时遇到了困难，因为她认为行业中的许多人并不理解某些读者真正想要的是什么。
Mehra Siswaini in South Africa struggled to get her first book published, The Lazy McCorty's Guide to the Kitchen, because she believes many in the industry didn't understand what some readers really wanted.
曾经，我是一名审计师，我的一位朋友要结婚了，她请我教她如何制作传统的南非菜肴。
Once upon a time, I was working as an auditor, and a friend of mine was getting married, and she asked that I teach her how to make, in particular, traditional South African food.
书名中的‘Bakhoti’指的是新嫁娘。
Bakhoti in the book's title means a new bride.
于是我教她如何制作这些菜肴。
And so I teach her how to make these foods.
在这个过程中，我意识到市场上存在一个空白。
And then in that process, I kind of recognize that there's a gap in the market.
如果你想学习如何制作传统的南非菜，除了向母亲或祖母学习外，几乎没有其他途径。
If you want to learn how to make traditional South African food, there wasn't really a place you could go to outside of learning from your mother or your grandmother.
于是我辞去了工作，去上了烹饪学校。
I then quit my job, went to culinary school.
在我接受这些烹饪课程时，人们经常问我：有没有一本书能收集所有这些食谱？
While I was given these cooking classes, people would ask me all the time, is there a book I can get all of these recipes in?
于是，我就萌生了把所有内容整理成一本食谱的想法。
And that's kind of how the idea to put it all in a cookbook happened.
那么你是如何尝试出版这本书的呢？
How did you go about trying to get yourself published then?
显然，我对这个行业一无所知。
So obviously it was an industry I knew nothing about.
我打电话推销、发邮件，有几个人回复了我，要求看手稿。
Cold calling, sending emails, a few got back to me asking for a manuscript.
可惜的是，他们都回绝了我。
Unfortunately, they all came back with a no.
为什么？
Why?
他们怎么说？
What did they say?
因为我特别想写关于传统南非黑人美食的内容。
Because I was wanting to write in particular about traditional South African black food.
他们认为，这种东西根本没有市场。
The thinking was that there is no market for this.
这个市场根本不会购买烹饪书。
This is a market that just doesn't buy cookbooks.
所以，他们不相信这样一本书即使在黑人占80%人口的国家也能成功，这让我感到很奇怪。
So they didn't believe that a book like this would work even in a country that is 80% black, which was strange to me to hear.
尽管如此，莫格拉仍坚持不懈。
Undeterred, Mograo pressed on.
我一向非常执着。
I can be very persistent.
于是，我不断发邮件、打电话，频繁登门拜访。
So lots of emailing, lots of calling, lots of showing up.
最终，我争取到了一次会面。
And eventually, get this meeting.
我准备了一些我想收录在书里的菜肴，然后去推销这本书。
I prepare some of the dishes that I wanted to be in the book, and off I went to pitch this book.
这次会面是与一家大型书店连锁公司进行的。
The meeting was with a big bookstore chain.
那里的高管们对所见所尝感到满意，并将她介绍给了一位恰好当天也在大楼里的出版商。
The executives there liked what they saw and tasted and introduced her to a publisher who also happened to be in the building that day.
你认为部分原因是因为你的烹饪技艺最终打动了出版商吗？
Do you think partly it was your cooking then that finally won a publisher over?
也许是，也许是烹饪起了作用。
Maybe, maybe it was the cooking.
但我认为关键是有对的人在场。
But I think the right people were in the room.
房间里有黑人女孩，她们理解一本书的重要性，她们自己就是目标受众，她们明白：我真希望看到这样一本书记出版。
There were black girls in the room who understood the importance of a book, who themselves were target markets, who understood, I would love to see a book like this get published.
我认为正因为如此，会议桌上才有人认识到这样一本书记的重要性。
And I think because of that, there was someone at the table to recognize the importance of a book like this.
这本书的反响如何？
And how was the book received?
书籍上架后发生了什么？
What happened when it hit the shelves?
这是我职业生涯中最令人惊叹的时刻。
It was the single most amazing moment of my career.
刚上市的第一周就立即成为畅销书。
It was an immediate bestseller the first week that it came out.
这真的太不可思议了。
It really was incredible.
我们后来再版了，我想现在已经到了第十五次。
We went on to reprint, I think, 15 times now.
它真的一直稳居前十名。
It really truly, I mean, it remains in the top 10.
那是2018年，而到2024年的今天，它依然位居前十，这简直不可思议。
That was 2018 and it remains in the top 10 now in 2024, which is really insane.
所以你填补了市场的空白？
So you filled a gap in the market?
我相信是的。
I believe so.
我相信我确实做到了。
I believe that I have.
我认为，最终，每个人的饮食都很重要。
I think ultimately, everybody's food matters.
每个人的故事都很重要。
Everybody's stories matters.
人们只是希望在所有媒体中看到自己的身影，而不仅仅是在食谱中，还包括音乐等各个方面，他们都希望看到自己的代表。
And people just want to see themselves reflected in all media, not just cookbooks, in music, in every way people want to see themselves represented.
我，我认为，这本书正是做到了这一点。
And I and I think that that's what that book did.
人们第一次在食谱中看到了自己传承的饮食、从小长大的食物，这真的非常特别。
People were seeing for the first time food of their own heritage, food that they grew up with in a cookbook, think was really special.
莫克拉尔·西斯瓦尼。
Mokraal Siswaini.
您正在收听来自BBC世界服务的《食物链》。
You're listening to the Food Chain from the BBC World Service.
对食物着迷吗？
Obsessed with food?
喜欢寻找最佳食谱吗？
Love finding the best recipes?
我是塞缪尔·戈德史密斯，美食作家、厨师，也是《好食物播客》的主持人。
I'm Samuel Goldsmith, food writer, cook, and host of the Good Food Podcast.
每周，我都会与顶尖厨师、美食作家以及改变我们饮食方式的前沿人物坐下来交谈。
Every week, I sit down with top chefs, food writers, and people at the forefront of changing the way we eat.
所有真正让食物变得精彩的人。
All the people who really make food great.
如果你热爱一顿美味的餐食和一场精彩的对话，请在Spotify上搜索《好食物播客》，每周二更新新鲜内容。
If you love a good meal and a great conversation, search for the Good Food Podcast on Spotify, Serving up fresh episodes every Tuesday.
到时候见。
See you there.
我是露丝·亚历山大。
I'm Ruth Alexander.
本周，我们探讨一个问题：食谱书的意义何在？
And this week, we're asking, what's the point of cookbooks?
对一些听众来说，他们的食谱书是个人珍品，甚至是国家宝藏。
For some listeners, their cookbooks are personal, even national treasures.
以下是来自意大利的教授克里斯蒂娜。
Here's Cristina, a professor from Italy.
我最喜欢的食谱书，就像许多意大利女性一样，是《幸福的护身符》，英文可译为《幸福的护身符》。
My favorite cookbook, as I think the one of many Italian women, is the talismano della felicita, which in English may be translated into the talisman of happiness.
这是一本大约一百年前出版的食谱书。
This is a book, a cookbook, which appeared almost, let's say, one hundred years ago.
它于20世纪20年代末出版。
It was published in the late '20s.
自那时起，它就成了我们厨房中所有重要菜谱的参考经典。
And since then, it represents kind of a reference text for us, for all the important recipes that we want to prepare in our kitchen.
它是一件珍贵的物品，一件古董，我们把它摆在厨房的架子上展示。
It is a valuable object, an antique, that we display in our kitchen shelves.
所以每个人都有吗？
So everybody has one?
每个人都有一本，而且它还是母亲传给女儿的传承。
Everybody has one, and it is also a legacy from mother to daughter.
所以我也有我祖母留下的旧版本。
So I also have the old copies belonging to my grandmothers.
它一直被视为送给有经验的新娘的完美婚礼礼物。
It has always been considered as a perfect wedding gift for an experienced bride.
所以我1986年结婚时收到了它，至今我仍保留着我的那本。
So I received it for my wedding in 1986, so I still have my copy.
是谁送给你的？
Who gave it to you?
我丈夫送的，还在序言里写了一段题词，献给‘家中的女王’。
My husband, with a dedication at the preface, to the Queen of the House.
你有一千多个食谱。
And you have more than 1,000 recipes.
这本书将成为一些最传统意大利菜肴的权威指南。
This book will be the authority on some of the most traditional Italian dishes.
我认为这是基石。
The cornerstone, I would say.
这是支柱。
The pillar.
意大利烹饪传统的支柱。
The pillar of Italian gastronomic tradition.
我的名字是丽贝卡·霍尔。
My name is Rebecca Hall.
我住在马耳他。
I live in Malta.
我原籍加拿大。
I'm originally from Canada.
我有一本食谱，它不仅能带我回到特定的时间和地点，甚至能让我重温当时所穿的衣服。
I have a cookbook which brings me not just to a specific time and place, but even into the room, even with what I was wearing.
在我十几岁快成年时，我收到了一本食谱，那是我当时的男友的祖母送我的礼物。
So I was gifted a cookbook in my late teens by the grandmother of my boyfriend at the time.
这个家庭有欧洲背景，因此他们在圣诞前夜庆祝并互赠礼物。
The family was of European heritage, so they celebrated and exchanged presents on Christmas Eve.
那时一切都庄重正式，不像我们会在早上六点半穿着睡衣懒洋洋地到处找袜子，对吧？
And it was all quite dressed up as opposed to us lolling around in our pajamas at 06:30 in the morning looking for the stockings, you know?
那是一种不同的圣诞节。
It was a different type of Christmas.
我可能已经有二十五年没见过那个年轻人了——他现在早已不是年轻人了，但我仍然保留着这本食谱。
I haven't seen this young man who's now no longer a young man in probably twenty five years, But I still have the cookbook.
就在几周前，我把它拿了出来，随便翻了翻。
And I took it out just a couple of weeks ago and was glancing through it.
当我打开它时，夹在书里的贺卡掉了出来。
And when I opened it up, the gift card which had been placed in with the book fell out.
因此，那一刻不仅让我回到了收到这本美妙书籍的时光，也让我想起了那些已故的人。
And so it was a moment that brought me back not just to the time that I was gifted that wonderful book, but to the memories of people who are no longer with us.
所以它让你回到那些人身边，但也让你回到自己身上。
So it brings you back to those people, but it also brings you back to yourself.
它让我回到了21岁时的自己，那时我正准备踏入世界，开始探索。
And it brings me back to my 21 year old self who was waiting to go out into the world to begin to explore.
我的名字是比尔吉特·霍滕拉特，目前住在宾夕法尼亚州费城郊外。
My name is Birgit Hottenrat, and I currently live just outside of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
我出生在德国。
And I was born in Germany.
我的父母在七十年代移民到美国。
My parents emigrated to The US in the seventies.
你反复翻阅的是哪一本食谱？
Which is the cookbook you returned to time and time again?
嗯，在德语里，它的名字非常简单。
Well, in German, it's a very simple title.
它叫《Das Kochbuch》，就是一本普通的食谱。
It's called Das Kochbuch, and it is simply the cookbook.
它来自黑森林地区，由当地女男爵撰写，或她在十九世纪九十年代监督了这本书的出版，后来它演变成了一所烹饪学校，成为二十世纪头二十年女性唯一的职业出路。
And it comes from the Black Forest region, and it was written by the local baroness, or she supervised the the printing of this book in the late eighteen nineties, and it ended up becoming a cookery school, sort of the only professional outlet for women in the nineteen teens and twenties.
我知道我的曾祖母、祖母和母亲都曾用这本食谱做饭。
And I know that my great grandmother, my grandmother, and then my mother have all cooked from this cookbook.
我二十多岁时也得到了一本。
I was given a copy sort of in my twenties as well.
这真是一种与从未谋面的曾祖母建立联系的美妙方式，而我的祖母总是热衷于为所有人烹制丰盛的大餐，人人都参与其中。
It's really a wonderful way to feel connected to my great grandmother who I never knew, but my grandmother who was always thrilled to cook giant feasts for everyone, and everyone contributed.
我母亲是五个孩子中的一个。
My mother is one of five kids.
每次从美国回去探亲，总会用这本食谱做酸牛肉。
And coming back from The US for visits, there would always be the sauerbraten from this cookbook.
总会配上其他蔬菜。
There would always be other vegetables.
总会有一款应季蛋糕。
There would always be the seasonal cake.
所以当你翻阅这本书的页面时，你实际上是在深入探索你的家族历史和过去。
So when you delve into the pages of this book, you really are, delving back into your family history, to your past.
这本书在某种程度上把我们带到了美国，因为我的母亲在五十年代末到六十年代曾在这所学校学习，以此离开她的家乡。
This book brought us to America in a way because my mother attended this school in the late fifties, nineteen sixties, as a way to leave her hometown.
她遇到了我的父亲，之后在我和我哥哥出生后，他们决定移居美国。
She met my father, and then they made a decision to move to America once my brother and I were born.
所以意识到这一点真的很了不起。
So that's kind of an amazing thing to realize.
一般来说，最好的食谱书能提供什么？
In general, what do the best cookbooks offer?
说实话，我不想要那些故事。
I don't want the stories, honestly.
我想要的是食谱。
I want the recipes.
我并不想过多了解厨师的背景。
I don't really want to know too much about the background of the chefs.
我想要一本经过精心编辑、简洁明了的食谱书。
I'd like a well edited, succinct cookbook.
我不需要冗长的故事。
I don't need long winded stories.
然而，据纽约西蒙与舒斯特出版社旗下西蒙元素分社的主编多丽丝·库珀称，如今正是这些故事常常让食谱书引起出版商和公众的注意。
And yet these days, it is the stories that so often bring a cookbook to the attention of the publisher and the public according to Doris Cooper, who's the editor in chief of Simon Element, a division of Simon and Schuster in New York.
我问她，她在寻找什么样的食谱书。
I asked her what she's looking for in a cookbook.
我首先寻找的是能解决某个问题的书。
The first thing that I'm looking for is a book that solves a problem.
我经常对编辑们和自己说，让我们站在消费者、站在书店里的那个人的角度思考。
I often say to the editors and to myself, let's put ourselves in the shoes of the consumer, of the person standing in the bookstore.
他们心里想的问题是：买这本书，能得到什么？
The question in their head is buy book, get what?
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如果我要花35美元，甚至40美元，这本书能帮我什么？
If I'm going to spend 35, maybe even $40, how will this book help me?
我们也在寻找独特的观点。
We're also looking for a distinct point of view.
cookbook 和食谱并不稀缺。
There is no shortage of cookbooks or recipes.
但当你购买一本食谱书时，你想知道作者是如何定义他们所做之事的。
But when you buy a cookbook, you want to know how does the author of that book frame what they're doing.
他们有什么独特之处？
What do they do that is unique?
但我认为，人们很少想到食谱书中所讲述的故事。
But I I think the other thing that people don't think about so much with cookbooks are the stories that they tell.
读者正是通过这些故事，结合摄影，找到制作菜肴的灵感。
And it's really where readers find inspiration to make something along with the photography.
那么，像多丽丝这样的出版商在哪里找到这些宝藏呢？
So where do publishers like Doris find these gems?
我最喜欢的一件事就是在乘坐地铁回家的路上阅读烹饪杂志，我会把喜欢的食谱撕下来带回家。
One of the things I love to do is read cooking magazines on the subway on my way home, and I will tear up the recipes that I like and go home kitchen.
当我需要灵感时，就会翻抽屉，把它们找出来。
And then when I need inspiration, I'll rummage through the drawer and pull it out.
多年前，我在翻那个抽屉时发现，我最喜欢的那些食谱全都出自同一个人之手。
And years ago, was going through that drawer and I noticed that all of the recipes that I loved the most in there were by one person.
那个人恰好是一位名叫艾莉森·罗马的女性。
It happened to have been a woman named Alison Roman.
我想，好吧，多丽丝，做个好编辑，给她写封信，打个电话，看看她是否有兴趣写一本书。
And I thought, okay, Doris, be a good editor and write her a letter, call her up, and see if she's interested in writing a book.
结果她真的写了一本书，接着又出了第二本，去年又推出了第三本。
And lo and behold, she wrote a book, she followed it with another book, and last year she had a third book come out.
这三本书都成了大热畅销书。
And they were all big, big bestsellers.
这确实是每个人最令人欣慰的体验。
That is really the most rewarding experience for everyone.
我想知道，你有没有做过错误的决定？
I wonder, have you ever made the wrong call?
有时候会收到一个提案，我们可能拒绝了，但两年后，它却成了大畅销书。
A proposal may come in and we might pass on it, and then in two years, it turns out it was a big bestseller.
这种情况确实会发生。
And that does happen.
而且
And that
这一定
That must
确实发生了。
that happened.
我
I
对不起。
Sorry.
继续说。
Go on.
你肯定会问我，那本书是什么？
You're gonna ask me what what was the book?
我会说，我真怕你会问我这个问题，露丝。
And I will I was afraid you were gonna ask me that, Ruth.
我拒绝了《Recipe to Needs》，但我真的学到了很多。
I passed on recipe to needs, and I really learned a lot.
作者是澳大利亚的纳吉·马哈希。
By Nagi Mahashi in in Australia.
就是澳大利亚的。
As in Australia.
当然，她现在非常有名。
Who is, of course, huge now.
她非常有名。
She's huge.
她在美國也非常有名。
And she's huge in The United States as well.
當這個提案來到我這裡時，我真的很喜歡這些食譜。
And when that proposal came into me, I really liked the food.
但我對如何出版一位位於澳洲的作者感到懷疑。
But I was skeptical about how we could publish an author who was based in Australia.
我擔心「食譜盒」這個詞對美國讀者來說會很陌生。
I was concerned that the phrase recipe tin would not be familiar to American audiences.
我的意思是，她那種老式的金屬小盒子，用來存放食譜，我們叫它食譜盒。
I mean, with her old fashioned little metal box that you put recipes in, we call it a recipe box.
但在這裡，「tin」有別的含義，我以為這會在翻譯中丟失，但我錯了。
A tin has a different meaning here and I thought it would get lost in translation and I was wrong.
結果並沒有。
It didn't.
所以，儘管我為她和她的出版商感到高興，但錯過這本書還是讓我有點遺憾。
So as happy as I am for her and and her publisher, it does always pain me a little bit that I miss that one.
在英国，前五名畅销书的销量占总销量的10%以上。
In The UK, the top five bestsellers account for more than 10% of sales.
前一百名的书籍销量占总销量的一半以上。
The top 100 for more than half of sales.
我想知道，在美国，情况是否也一样？
And I wonder, in The US, is it the same?
市场是否被少数几本畅销书主导？
Is the market dominated by a few bestsellers?
确实是。
It is.
其中20本书支撑了其余80%的销量。
And 20 of the books float the other 80%.
所以，那些大热作品无疑是我们依赖的关键。
So the big hits are certainly what we depend on.
但烹饪类图书的一个美妙之处在于，我们的书籍往往能有很长的销售周期。
But one of the wonderful things about the cooking category is that our books see really nice long tail.
所以，一本图书可能在某一年成为畅销书，之后的两三年、四年，甚至更长时间里仍能持续销售。
So you can have a book that is a big best seller, one year, and it will continue to sell for the following two, three, four, maybe even longer years after that.
即使有些书不在前20%之列，但可能在前50%之内，它们看似平平无奇，但有时我们回头一看，会惊讶地发现：天啊。
And even some of the books that aren't in that top 20%, but maybe that are in the top 50%, And while they may sort of seem to plot along, sometimes we'll turn around and we'll look and we'll think, oh my gosh.
这本书去年的销量翻了一倍。
That book has doubled its sales in the last year.
所以，无论是大热爆款还是慢热型作品，找到一本畅销书都极具价值。
So finding a hit, be it a big splash or a slow burner, can be really valuable.
确实如此。
Absolutely.
我们非常依赖这些书。
And we depend on them.
多丽丝·库珀。
Doris Cooper.
但如果畅销书可以被模仿并以低价销售呢？
But what if the best sellers can be imitated and sold at knockdown prices?
这是来自加利福尼亚州洛杉矶的美食博主、《韩式素食食谱》作者乔安妮·莫利纳罗心中的一个问题，这本书源于她决定采用植物性饮食。
This is a question on the mind of Joanne Molinaro from Los Angeles, California, a food blogger and author of The Korean Vegan Cookbook, a product of her decision to adopt a plant based diet.
我父母都出生在如今被称为朝鲜的地方。
Both my mom and my dad were born in what is now known as North Korea.
我当时就想，我不能因为韩式泡菜不素而放弃吃它。
And I was like, I'm not gonna not eat kimchi anymore because it's not vegan.
所以我必须找到一种方法把它做成素食的。
So I have to figure out a way to make it vegan.
我开始分享我的经历。
I started to share my journey.
2017年，有人联系我，问我是否愿意写一本食谱。
And in 2017, I was approached by somebody who basically asked me, would you be interested in writing a cookbook?
我当时想，好吧。
And I was like, I guess.
毕竟我是家律师事务所的合伙人，这不会是件容易的事，但当然可以。
I mean, I'm a partner at a law firm, so it won't be a quick thing, but sure.
就这样，一切发生了。
And that's how it all happened.
但似乎她并不是唯一有这个想法的人。
But it seemed she wasn't the only one with this exact same idea.
实际上，在书出版之前，我就已经开始注意到模仿者了。
I actually started noticing copycats before the book even came out.
我在2020年经历了一次人气的爆发。
I had experienced an explosion in popularity in 2020.
人们都在期待《韩式纯素料理》这本书。
People were anticipating the Korean Vegan Cookbook.
他们对这本书充满期待。
They were excited about it.
预购量非常高。
Preorders were very high.
还有许多仿制品，我称之为仿制品，因为它们盗用了我的商标名称‘韩式纯素’。
And there were all of these knockoff I'll call them knockoffs because they were knocking off my name, The Korean Vegan, which is a trademark.
我实际上买了一本。
And I actually bought one.
我下载了一本，因为我想知道
I downloaded one because I
这本食谱里到底有什么
was like, I wanna know what's
这本食谱里到底有什么
in this cookbook.
这本所谓的韩式素食食谱里真有什么价值吗？
Is there really something here of value?
我震惊地发现，这本所谓韩式素食食谱中的食谱不仅不是素食，而且大部分也根本不是韩式的。
And was appalled to discover that not only were the recipes in this purportedly Korean vegan cookbook not vegan, They were largely not Korean either.
我立刻把这件事告诉了我的出版商。
I brought it to my publishers immediately.
我非常沮丧，这完全可以理解。
I was very upset, understandably.
起初，他们说：‘这太糟糕了。’
And at first, they were like, oh, this is terrible.
我们会立即处理。
We're gonna get right on it.
但在四十八小时内，他们回信说：‘抱歉。’
But within forty eight hours, they wrote back and they said, sorry.
我们对此无能为力。
There's nothing we can do about it.
这对我来说真的非常心碎。
And that was really heartbreaking for me.
食谱不受版权保护吗？
Are recipes not protected by copyright?
不受保护。
They are not.
至少在美国是这样。
At least not in The United States.
我不知道。
I don't know.
我怀疑世界上其他地方也没有，但肯定在美国没有。
I doubt that they are anywhere else in the world, but certainly not in The US.
是谁在做这件事？
Who is doing this?
我们不知道。
We don't know.
另一件事是，如果你搜索这些书的作者名字，他们往往根本不存在。
That's the other thing is a lot of times if you Google the names of the authors, if you will, on these books, they don't exist.
所以我的猜测是，这些名字只是随便从帽子里面抽出来的，并不是真实存在的人。
And so my guess is that, you know, these names are just names randomly picked out of a hat, and they're not actually even people.
这是人工智能在起作用。
So it's artificial intelligence at work.
我发了推文提到这件事，立刻有人回复说：看起来像是人工智能。
I tweeted about it, and someone immediately replied, looks like AI to me.
然后我灵光一现。
And then the light bulb went off.
我当时就想，当然了。
And I was like, well, of course.
这很有道理。
Makes a lot of sense.
这样你就能以一种能赚大钱的方式扩大规模。
That way you can scale this in a way that makes a lot of money.
最终，其中一个仿冒品越界了。
Eventually, one of the apparent copies crossed a line.
当我看到这个人——或者不管那是哪个机器人——复制了我的章节名称和章节结构时，我又极度愤怒了。
When I saw that whoever this person was or whatever robot it was copied my chapter names and my chapter structure, Then I got extremely angry again.
于是我给出版商发了邮件，说：嘿，我知道你说过对此无能为力，但这次真的太糟糕了。
And I emailed my publisher and I said, hey, look, I know you said there's nothing you could do about it, but this one is really bad.
封面几乎一模一样。
The cover is almost identical.
字体完全一样。
The font is exactly the same.
颜色也一样。
The color is the same.
现在他们连我的章节名称和结构都偷走了，而且他们也认同我的观点。
Now they stole my chapter names and structure as well, and they agreed with me.
幸运的是，亚马逊也认同我的观点。
And, thankfully, Amazon agreed with me.
是亚马逊主动说：‘没错。',
And Amazon was the one that said, yeah.
我们要下架这个产品。
We're we're taking this off.
天啊。
Gosh.
你认为人工智能对烹饪作家构成多大的威胁？
What kind of threat and how big a threat do you think AI could pose to cookery writers?
哦，我认为这构成了巨大的威胁。
Oh, I think it poses a huge threat.
我真的，真的这么认为。
I really, really do.
所以我做了一个实验，我说：嘿，AI。
So I did an experiment, and I said, hey, AI.
你能给我写一整章关于韩式纯素主菜的内容吗？
Can you write me an entire chapter on Korean vegan entrees?
它不到一分钟就生成了一篇。
And it spit one out in less than a minute.
我看了看这些内容，你知道，我一直自认为是韩式纯素食谱方面的专家。
And I looked at them and, you know, I considered myself to be a somewhat of an expert on Korean vegan recipes.
这些确实是韩式纯素食谱。
These were Korean vegan recipes.
讽刺的是，这些食谱可能部分是利用了我贡献给食谱数据库的数据生成的。
I mean, these are recipes that ironically, probably were made in part by using the data that I contributed to the pool of recipes out there.
嗯，我觉得这看起来有点眼熟，但又足够不同。
Like, was like, yeah, this looks a little familiar, but it's different enough.
而且考虑到我的食谱并没有版权保护，这完全是合法的。
And considering the fact that there's, again, no copyright on my recipes, it's totally legal too.
你觉得哪些类型的烹饪书能在AI时代生存下来？
What sort of cookbooks do you think stand a chance of surviving AI?
我还是回到故事叙述这一点上。
Again, I go back to storytelling.
AI无法创造另一个你。
The one thing that AI cannot create is another you.
它无法复制露丝。
It cannot replicate Ruth.
它无法复制乔安。
It cannot replicate Joanne.
它无法复制人类经验的无限可能。
It cannot replicate the boundlessness of the human experience.
对吧？
Right?
所以对我来说，当初做食谱书的初衷是融入故事性。
And so to me, the original thought behind the cookbook one was inject the storytelling.
它必须包含我家族的故事。
It must contain the stories of my family.
我认为出于很多原因，这确实是个非常明智的决定。
And I think that was a really smart thing for a lot of reasons.
当然，我当时并没有想到：机器人会试图抄袭我的食谱书。
And I certainly wasn't doing it at the time thinking, robots are going to try and copy my cookbook.
但回过头来看，我认为这是一个正确的选择，因为它现在让食谱书的读者和我的品牌都习惯了这种真实、坦诚的故事叙述。
But in retrospect, in hindsight, I think that was a good move because it has now prepared readers of the cookbook and my brand to expect storytelling, vulnerable storytelling.
琼·莫利纳罗。
Joan Molinaro.
我在想，出版商多丽丝·库珀是否担心人工智能。
I wondered whether publisher Doris Cooper worries about AI.
在我夜不能寐的诸多事情中，这件事并不在其中。
I will say of the many things that keep me up at night, that is not one of them.
在出版业，天塌下来的事儿一直都有，你知道的。
The sky has always been falling in publishing, you know.
但我们还在这里。
And we're here.
我对AI还不了解的地方还有很多，但我知道，让我们的书籍独特的是那些撰写和编辑它们的真实人类与个性。
I don't know what I don't know yet about AI, but I do know that what makes our books special are the real human beings and personalities who are writing them and who are editing them.
我认为AI未来或许能完成其中一部分，但不可能全部做到。
I think AI may be able to do some of that in the future, but not all of that.
在伦敦那家食谱店外排队吃午饭的人群中，人情味显然是吸引力的一部分。
Back in the queue for lunch outside the cookbook shop in London, the human touch is definitely part of the appeal.
是
Are
你们在宣传我们这家秘密餐厅吗？
you publicizing our secret restaurant?
哦，是的。
Oh, yes.
抱歉，这么麻烦。
Sorry about this.
你不想让人们知道，这是世界服务。
You don't want people to It's the world service.
我相信这主要是给生活在海外的人们看的，希望如此。
I'm sure that it'll be people living abroad, hopefully.
这家店太棒了。
And this shop is amazing.
我喜欢在那里买烹饪书。
I love buying cookbooks there.
但午餐，我想他是出于好心才做的。
But the lunch, think he does out of the goodness of his heart.
他不可能从这上面赚到钱。
There's no way he's making any money out of it.
我爱烹饪书。
I love cookbooks.
我发现我通常买了之后，还是凭直觉做饭。
I find that I generally buy them and then just cook from instinct anyway.
所以我只是大致翻一翻。
So I sort of flick through them a bit.
看。
Look.
队伍往前移动了。
The queue has moved.
我知道。
I know.
我觉得我
I think I'm
我是我
I'm I
我觉得我可能赶不上了，我觉得我大概只有30%的机会能进去。
I think I'm at the point where I might not quite make it, and I'd say I probably got about a 30% chance of getting in.
看。
Look.
我没进去。
I have not made it.
哦，是啊。
Oh, yeah.
我能看出你失望的表情。
I can see the sorry face.
可惜。
Domage.
明天运气会更好。
Better luck tomorrow.
嗯。
Yeah.
干杯。
Cheers.
一路顺风。
Bon voyage.
这听起来不像是家书店，对吧？
This doesn't sound like a bookshop, does it?
是的。
Yeah.
这是一家书店，而这顿午餐只是个小细节，显然如此。
This is a bookshop, and this lunch is just a small detail, apparently.
不过是个很不错的细节。
A very nice one, though.
小细节，联合店主埃里克为此付出了很多努力。
A small detail co owner Eric worked hard at.
你一定累坏了。
You must be exhausted.
你知道吗？
Do know?
事情就是这样。
It's what it is.
如果你想卖书，就得搞个表演，对吧？
You have to provide a show if you want to sell a book, isn't it?
所以这就是真相？
So that's what it is?
对。
Yeah.
你提供表演，他们就会谈论你。
You provide the show, and they talk about you.
很多人来了，却从未到过这里。
A lot of people come and they never been here.
一点点地来，还挺有趣的。
And a little bit at the time is fun.
还有一些人会留下来买书。
And a few will linger and buy a book.
或者他们会知道去哪里买这本书。
Or they will know where to come and buy a book.
等他们准备好了的时候。
When they're ready to.
是的。
Yeah.
当他们准备好的时候。
When they're when they're ready.
感谢埃里克·特罗伊以及今天我们交谈的所有人。
Eric Troye, thanks to him and to everyone we spoke to for today's program.
我们也很想听听你们最喜欢的烹饪书。
And we'd love to hear about your favorite cookbooks.
你们可以把照片发送到食品链邮箱：b b c dot c o dot u k。
You can send pictures to the food chain at b b c dot c o dot u k.
页面越脏乱，说明越好。
The more splattered the pages, the better.
由我以及整个团队的比阿特丽斯·皮卡普和汉娜·贝利感谢您的收听，下周再见。
From me and the rest of the team, Beatrice Pickup and Hannah Bewley, thanks for listening, and join us again next week.
对食物着迷吗？
Obsessed with food?
喜欢寻找最好的食谱吗？
Love finding the best recipes?
我是塞缪尔·戈德史密斯，美食作家、厨师，也是《好食物播客》的主持人。
I'm Samuel Goldsmith, food writer, cook, and host of the Good Food Podcast.
每周，我都会与顶尖厨师、美食作家以及引领饮食变革的人士畅谈，那些真正让美食变得精彩的人。
Every week, I sit down with top chefs, food writers, and people at the forefront of changing the way we eat, All the people who really make food great.
如果你热爱一顿美味的餐食和一场精彩的对话，请在Spotify上搜索《好食物播客》。
If you love a good meal and a great conversation, search for the Good Food podcast on Spotify.
每周二准时更新新 episodes。
Serving up fresh episodes every Tuesday.
到时候见。
See you there.
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