艾米丽·卡姆·恩瓜拉里讲述，凯莉·科尔 [泰特现代美术馆展览导览！]

大家好，欢迎回到《伟大女性艺术家》播客的特别加更节目，本期将带您游览伦敦泰特现代美术馆新开幕的艾米丽·卡门维尔展览，由策展人凯莉·科尔亲自解说。不过在进入这次全新形式的导览之前——我对大家的反馈充满期待——我很高兴地宣布本系列节目得到了莱维特收藏的支持。这个庞大多元的艺术收藏中，有越来越多重要部分致力于女性艺术家作品，目前收藏了超过600件女性艺术家作品。克里斯蒂安·莱维特在2023年2月出版必备书籍《抽象表现主义：女性艺术家》后，又于2024年6月21日开设了FAM——欧洲首个完全专注于女性艺术家的私人博物馆。位于法国南部尼斯近郊穆然市的这个改造空间，陈列着从印象派到当代百余件顶尖女性艺术家的杰作。

Hello, everyone, and welcome back to this very special bonus episode of the great woman artist podcast featuring a tour of a new exhibition that has just opened in London at Tate Modern of Emily Kamenware as told by curator Kelly Cole. But just before we get to this tour, which is a new format, and I'm very excited to see what you all think, I'm very excited to say that this series is supported by the Levitt collection, a vast and varied art collection of which a major and ever increasing portion is dedicated to works by women artists. Today, there are over 600 works by women artists in the collection. After publishing the must have book, abstract expressionist, the women in 02/2023, Christian Levitt went on to open on the 06/21/2024, FAM, the first private museum in Europe entirely dedicated to women artists. Located in Moujanne, Ner Cannes in the South Of France, this transformed space features a stunning collection of over 100 masterpieces by many of the leading female artists from impressionism to contemporary.

从贝尔特·莫里索到玛丽娜·阿布拉莫维奇等大师作品尽在其中。莱维特收藏中这些令人惊叹的绘画、雕塑和摄影作品，突显了在现代艺术重要运动中扮演关键角色的女性们的创造力。这里距离尼斯机场仅30分钟车程。FAM（穆然女性艺术家博物馆缩写）全年开放，更多信息及预约请访问www.fam-mm.com。

Think the likes of Burt Morisseau to Marina Abramovich. This impressive exhibition of paintings, sculptures, and photographs from the Levett collection highlights the creative brilliance of women who have played pivotal roles in shaping some of the major artistic movements of the modern period. It's only thirty minutes away from Nice Airport. FAM, which stands for female artists of the Muzhan Museum, is open every day. And for further information and bookings, please visit www.fam, that's fa,mm,.com.

希望你们喜欢本期节目。大家好，欢迎收听由我凯蒂·赫塞尔主持的《伟大女性艺术家》播客。有些人可能通过我在2015年10月创建的Instagram账号@thegreatwomenartists认识我，该账号每日推介从年轻毕业生到古典大师的女性艺术家。与Instagram类似，这档播客旨在颂扬来自不同背景和历史的女性艺术家。我非常期待能采访艺术家们关于她们的职业生涯，或是与艺术家、作家、策展人及艺术爱好者探讨对他们影响最深的女性艺术家。

I hope you enjoy this episode. Hello, everyone, and welcome to the great woman artist podcast with me, Katie Hessel. Some of you might know me from the great woman artists, an Instagram account I set up in October 2015, which celebrates female artists on a daily basis ranging from young graduates to old masters. Well, in a similar fashion to the Instagram, this podcast is all about celebrating female artists from a variety of backgrounds and histories. And I'm so excited to be interviewing artists on their career or artists, writers, curators, or general art lovers on the woman artist who means most of them.

我希望通过这档播客以多元方式致敬女性艺术家，让听众们能深入了解当今艺术界及艺术史上最杰出的女性创作者。非常荣幸宣布本期《伟大女性艺术家》播客的嘉宾是尊敬的策展人凯莉·科尔。这位来自澳大利亚中部的乌尔蒙加和卢里贾族女性，现任爱丽丝泉国家原住民与托雷斯海峡岛民艺术馆项目的策展与公众参与总监。她曾任澳大利亚国家美术馆原住民特别项目策展人，并参与过多部关于原住民艺术的出版物编撰。今天我们邀请科尔是因为她正主导泰特现代美术馆一场激动人心的新展览——艾米丽·卡姆·恩古瓦雷，这是欧洲首个恩古瓦雷作品大型展览，致敬这位澳大利亚最伟大艺术家之一的非凡生涯。

What I want this podcast to do is celebrate female artists in all different capacities so you, the listener, can gain a look into the greatest female artists working now or from art history. I'm so excited to say that my guest on the Great Woman Artist podcast is the esteemed curator Kelly Cole. A Wuramonga and Luridja woman from Central Australia, Cole is the director of curatorial and engagement for the National Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Art Gallery of Australia project in Alice Springs. Previously, she held the position of curator of special projects in the First Nations portfolio at the National Gallery of Australia and has contributed to numerous publications on various aspects of First Nations art. But the reason why we are speaking with Cole today is because she is the lead curator of a very exciting new exhibition here in London at Tate Modern, Emily Calm Ngouare, the first large scale presentation of Ngouare's work ever held in Europe and a celebration of her extraordinary career as one of Australia's greatest artists.

1914年出生于北领地阿鲁尔克拉地区的恩古瓦雷，创作了数千件反映其原住民女性生活的作品，但非凡的是她直到七十多岁才开始认真作画，为仪式用途和在女性身体上绘制图案。本次展览延续了科尔2023年在澳大利亚国家美术馆策划的恩古瓦雷展，展期为2025年7月至2026年1月。在这个《伟大女性艺术家》播客的特别加更节目中，我们无比荣幸地在展览现场录制，亲眼目睹这些我见过最震撼的画作。无论您是在参观前收听，还是通过节目云端观展，我们都希望能为您展现她画作中的魔力。凯莉·科尔，欢迎来到节目。

Born in 1914 from the Alulcra country in the Northern Territory, Nguire made thousands of works reflecting her life as an amateur woman, but was extraordinarily only in her late seventies when she began painting in earnest, creating for ceremonial purposes and designs on the bodies of women. Building on Cole's twenty twenty three exhibition of Umwarre at the National Gallery of Australia, this show runs from July 2025 to January 2026. And for this very special bonus episode of the great women artists podcast, I couldn't be more delighted to say that we are recording inside the exhibition, witnessing firsthand some of the most dazzling paintings I've ever seen. So whether you'll listen to this ahead of your visit or be virtually transported here for those who can't be here in person, I hope we bring the magic of her paintings alive for you. Kelly Cole, welcome to the podcast.

今天感觉如何？

How are you doing today?

很好，非常兴奋。很高兴能在这里与你交谈。

I'm well. Super excited. Lovely to be here speaking with you.

非常感谢接受采访，同时祝贺你。去年我有幸造访澳大利亚，这个让我一见钟情的国度彻底颠覆了我的艺术史认知——第一次见到如此丰富的原住民艺术让我震撼不已。此刻站在这个展览中，墙面仿佛随着色彩脉动。这些时而巨幅的作品绚烂夺目、充满活力又令人着迷，都是恩古瓦雷生活经历的转化。不过在深入探讨前，我想先问问：当你看到这些跃动的画作时，身处这个空间有何感受？

Well, thank you so much for speaking with me, and congratulations. I was lucky enough to visit Australia last year, a country I felt immediately enraptured by and had my sense of art history overturned because of seeing for the first time a plethora of aboriginal art that completely took my breath away. Standing here in this exhibition, it's like the walls are pulsating with color. These at times monumental works that are dazzling, vibrant, and mesmeric are translations of Nwarre's lived experiences. But before we get into them, I just want to start by asking you, how does it feel to be in the space when you see Nwarre's pulsating paintings?

在泰特现代美术馆看到恩古瓦雷的画作挂在墙上，我无比激动。她的画作充满生命能量，她的故土在画布上震颤。能将这些作品带到泰特展出实在令人振奋。

Looking at Nwarre's paintings on the walls here at Tate Modern, I'm just so excited. Her paintings are alive with energy. Her country is vibrating. Having transported here to the Tate is really exciting.

是什么吸引你策展并研究恩古瓦雷的作品？

Why are you drawn to curating and studying Uware's work?

是的。作为一名原住民女性，我是Wurrungongaluratu族人，在中央沙漠的爱丽丝泉长大。艾米丽的家乡离我的家乡不远，同属那片沙漠地带。

Yeah. Well, as an Aboriginal woman myself, I'm a Wurrungongaluratu woman. I grew up in Alice Springs, Central Desert. Emily's country is not that far away from my country. It's still that same desert terrain.

Ngware是我自幼就敬仰的人，她是我们最重要的艺术家之一。作为仪式传承者，她真正将文化精髓融入了画作。

Ngware is someone who I've always admired even when I was younger. She is one of our most significant artists. She was a ceremonial woman that really did just transfer her culture into the paintings.

那么在这个一号展厅，我们从哪里开始？请为我们介绍一下艾米丽·卡姆恩瓦雷。

So in this gallery one, where do we start? Give us an introduction to Emily Kamunware.

现在墙上展示的是泰特现代美术馆收藏的三幅杰作。我们在此陈列它们，是因为这证明泰特现代对全球艺术品的收藏兴趣——他们确实收藏了Imare的作品。眼前这幅大型画作名为《Awulia 1989》，Awulia意指女性仪式舞蹈。当Imare和族中女性进行身体彩绘时...

What we're seeing on the wall right now are three extraordinary pieces that are actually in the Tate Modern collection. The reason we've displayed them here is because it shows that the Tate Modern is really interested in collecting works from around the world, and they do have Imare in their collection. What you're looking at right now, quite a nice large scale painting called Awulia 1989. Awulia means women's ceremony and dance. And so Imware and her female women, when they paint themselves up, they do body paint.

彩绘纹路会沿着胸部、手臂和胸膛延伸。这些身体上的仪式性标记最终转化成了震撼的画作。这些以天然土色为基调的丙烯画，外围环绕着条纹边框——那正是bullia身体彩绘的再现。而画作中央还有几只可爱的小蜥蜴，它们是Imare部落的可食用食材。

So it's along your breast, along your arms, and across your chest. That gestural mark making on body is then transferred to these extraordinary paintings. These paintings that are sort of natural earth color but in acrylic with stripy lines on the outside, and those stripy lines like a border around the painting is that bullia body paint. And then in the center of this major work, you've got a couple of wonderful little lizards and they're edible food sources that Imare and her community eat. Oh, yes.

啊，我刚注意到这个细节。

I'm just seeing that now.

蜥蜴仿佛正在土地上爬行。看啊，所有这些...

They almost feel like the lizards are walking on the land or something. Look, all of this

都关乎穿越乡野的旅程。是的，我们现在看到的画面充满了线条、圆点和精妙的标记。

is about traversing across country. And so, yeah, what we're looking at now is, you know, lots of lines, lots of dots, lots of beautiful marking within this painting.

你提到展厅里有地图。艾米丽在澳大利亚的什么地方？

And you mentioned there's a map in this room. Where do we find Emily in Australia?

艾米丽出生在Alokra地区，位于北领地的Sandover区域。那是片真正的沙质沙漠，在我家乡爱丽丝泉的Umbuntuwa以北，正好处于澳大利亚中心地带。

Emily was born on a country called Alokra, but it's on the Sandover region in the Northern Territory. So it's this really sandy desert. It is north of Umbuntuwa, Alice Springs, where I'm from. So it's right in the center of Australia.

你成长过程中一直了解她的作品吗？

And did you always know about her work when you were growing up?

是的。我很幸运，我的叔叔是罗伯特·安布罗斯·科尔，他是一位艺术家。他的搭档是罗德尼·古奇，罗德尼是中央澳大利亚媒体协会的艺术顾问。

Yeah. Look, I'm very fortunate. My uncle was Robert Ambrose Cole. He was an artist. His partner was Rodney Gooch, and Rodney Gooch was the art adviser to a place called Central Australian Media Association.

早期他们代理了Emware和女性精品团体。所以Emware经常在我叔叔家作画。我小时候就常看她画画，她总是和其他女性一起创作，比如格洛丽亚·帕哈达、艾达·伯德等许多人。

And they represented Emware and the women boutique group in the early days. And so Emware was always painting at my uncle's houses. So I got to see her when I was younger painting. She was always painting with other women, Gloria Pajada and Ada Bird and many others. Others.

这很特别。那是

That's extraordinary. What was it

小时候看她画画是什么感觉？

like as a child to see her paint?

她们总是笑着喝茶，坐在树下或走廊里。所以你知道，我真的很幸运。

They were always laughing, drinking cups of tea, just sitting around under a tree or under a veranda. So, you know, I was very fortunate.

能旁观艺术家创作是很难得的体验，因为那通常是私密而神圣的空间。她是怎么创作这些作品的？是把画布铺在地上作画吗？

Just to watch an artist at work is such a rare thing because it's such a sort of private sacred space. But how did she create these works? Were they on the ground and then she painted on that way?

是的，我们澳大利亚的原住民艺术家确实在地上作画。她们要么坐在画布上，要么把画布卷放在身旁。就像我说的，艾米莉总是和其他女性围坐在一起创作，面对面坐在画布上绘画。那是个美妙的过程，充满欢声笑语。

Yeah, look, our artists, Aboriginal artists in Australia do paint on the ground. They sit on their canvases or have their canvases rolled up beside them. Like I said, Emily did paint around a group of other women, so they would be facing each other and just sitting on top of their canvases and painting. It was a beautiful process. Like I said, there was a lot of laughing and lots of joyous moments.

孩子们也总参与其中，人来人往，场面总是热闹非凡。太棒了。我们该

Children were always involved. There was comings and going. There was a lot of activity always happening. Amazing. Should we

去下一个展厅吗？在第二展厅，这些美丽的绘画和蜡染令人震撼。能否先告诉我们什么是蜡染，以及它的重要意义？

go to the next room? So in Room 2, we are struck by these beautiful paintings and batiks. Could you tell us, first of what a batiq is and and why it is significant?

蜡染技艺源自印度尼西亚，后被引入澳大利亚的一个社区，继而传至乌托邦地区。制作蜡染的过程相当复杂。首先，我们面前这幅1977年Emware的棉布作品。他们最初选用棉布，是因为学习蜡染的同时也在学习读写。

Baatik practice, it comes from Indonesia. It was introduced into Australia, into another community, which then brought it to Utopia. So the practice of making baatik is quite a complex one. First off, we're sitting in front of a work from 1977 of Emware and it's on cotton. They started on cotton because they learnt how to do baartique the same time they were learning how to read and write.

这是Jenny Green博士在当地开展的教育项目的一部分。蜡染的具体工序是：取一块棉布，用特制工具蘸取蜡液——那工具像根带孔的小管。将蜡灌入管内，从另一端小孔流出，手持蜡管在布面上移动绘制图案。完成后需将蜡洗去，再将布料浸入水中。

It was a part of an educational process that was happening out there taught by Doctor Jenny Green. The actual process of baartique is getting a cotton, you've got a tool, you load it with wax. It's like a pipe with a hole in it. So you put the wax inside this pipe, a little hole comes out the other side and you move that pipe across until it lays the wax on it. Then you actually wash that wax out and you put it in water.

蜡覆盖的区域会形成留白效果。根据使用染料的颜色数量，这个工序需要反复进行多次。非常精妙。

And so where that wax is becomes the negative space. And so that process you have to do over and over again depending on how many different colors of dye you use. Extraordinary. And so

我们面前这些作品是什么？请为我们介绍一下。

what are the works that were standing here in front of us? Tell us about these.

好的。我们现在位于二号展厅，眼前是两幅蜡染作品。第一幅是精美的丝绸蜡染，上面有巨蜥图案——不仅有小型蜥蜴和巨蜥，还有鸸鹋。整幅作品以粉色为主调。

Yeah. So we're in Gallery 2 now. And what we're seeing is two batiks. The first one is a beautiful batiq on silk, and that has got goannas in it, but not only little lizards and goannas, it also has emus. It's pink.

色彩非常鲜艳。实际尺寸不大。她在转向绘画媒介前，已有十一年的蜡染创作经验。这面墙我们陈列了两幅蜡染，但最重要的是她人生第一幅绘画作品《Immy Woman》，创作于1988至1989年间。

It's very vibrant. It's actually quite a small piece. And she did the Batik practice for eleven years prior to even moving on to the painting medium. So what we've done on this wall is we've included two Batik's, but what we have is a really important work, which was her very first work she ever painted, and that is called Immy Woman. The date is 1988 and '89.

跨越88、89两年的原因是：当时有百幅画布被送往桑德沃地区供艺术家创作。这是个大型委托项目。这个夏季系列后来在悉尼展出，而我们眼前这幅杰作被选为宣传物料。就在作品被征集的那一刻，人们就发现Mware拥有非凡的才华。

The reason it is over '88, '89 is a 100 canvases were dropped off to the Sandover region for the artist to create a work. It was a big commission. This summer series was then exhibited in Sydney, and this wonderful work that we're looking at was selected as the work that was for the promotional material. So right there at this moment when these works were collected, you could see that Mware had something that was really extraordinary.

你认为她的非凡之处体现在哪里？

What do you think that was?

你看，就站在画作前——为什么这幅画能打动你？

Look, even standing in front of this painting, why does this painting move you?

我觉得Mware作品最震撼的是她引导观者凝视的方式。你看这些骨架般的形态仿佛在画面上游走，而那些色彩——焦赭色、明黄、纯白与漆黑——让人感受到澳大利亚干燥而非湿润的自然特质。

I mean, what I find so extraordinary about Mware's work is the way that she gets you to look. You know, what we're seeing are these kind of skeleton like forms scurrying around or something. And the colors, you feel them in the kind of Australian nature, that kind of burnt umber, the yellows, the whites, the blacks, it's dry, it's not wet.

所以你能感受到有人真正扎根于这片土地，我想。嗯，这是个绝妙的观察。你现在看到的是伊穆人的肋骨结构。这同时也是玛瓦尔的自画像。她作为伊穆族女性，因此绘制了许多关于伊穆的故事。

And so you feel someone who is really feeling the ground, I guess. Well, that's a wonderful observation. What you are looking at is the rib cages of the Imu. So this is like a self portrait of Mware as well. So she was Imu woman, and that's why she painted a lot of the Imi stories.

关于伊穆人的故事及其重要性，这与她的故土息息相关。阿洛克拉是片广袤的土地，但其中有个区域尤为特殊——那里有座天空之穴。阿洛克拉是一个国度，其姊妹国是阿农克拉。它们被视为两位伊穆兄弟，而她所属的阿洛克拉，则是较年轻的伊穆弟弟。

Now the story of the Imi and the importance to her is her country. Alokra is expansive country, but there's also a area within it that's really important. It's got a cave in the sky. And Alulqra is one country, and its sibling country is a Anuncra country. They are considered two Imu brothers, and Alulqra, her country, is the younger Imu brother.

因此，伊穆文化是她故事与梦境中至关重要的部分，她也常在画作中描绘这些元素。

So the Imu is such an important part of her story, her dreaming, and she depicts it a lot in her paintings.

你提到这是她在1988至1989年间创作的首批作品，当时她已年过七旬。为何她会在那个阶段开始绘画？其实这与...

You know, you mentioned that this is the first work that she ever made between 1988 and 1989. I mean, she was in her seventies at this point. Why did she come to painting then? Well, it was a part of

社区集体实践有关。绘画是作为蜡染工艺的一部分被引入的。当我说工艺时，蜡染当时正是如此定位的。他们从制作蜡染起步，继而转向绘画创作。我们的族人同样精于商业。

the practice through the community. It was introduced as a part of the art and craft making the batiq. And when I say art and craft, that was how batiq practice was considered. So they started off with the batiq making, and then they moved on to doing the paintings. Now our people are also business people as well.

这些画作成为可交易的商品，他们通过绘画获得报酬。这也是项集体活动——大家围坐在一起，画布和颜料被分发下来。

So, you know, this is a commodity that we're painting and getting paid for their paintings. And it's a communal thing as well. They're sitting around. The canvases are being dropped off. The paint's getting dropped off.

他们边画边讲述画中的故事。要记住，这些故事属于全体族人，是他们共同的文化遗产，而非任何个人的独有叙事。

They're telling their stories of what they're painting. And remember, those stories belong to them all. They own those stories together. Those stories of their culture belongs to the whole community. It's not their one individual story.

当我们走进第三展厅，会发现色调与图案风格略有变化，出现了种子或足印般的符号。请为我们解读1989至1990年间，艾米丽艺术探索的新阶段。

So as we walk into Room 3, we're seeing a slight change in palette, slight change in pattern with these different iconographies. We see seed or even foot like iconography. Tell us about what we're kind of moving into as we discover Emily in 1989 and 1990.

是的，这些仍属她早期作品。我们刚欣赏过精彩的《伊穆女子》，那既是对伊穆人的刻画，也是她的自画像。现在眼前是四幅精美的板面小作，约20×30厘米大小。

Yeah. So these are still her earlier work. So we've just talked about the wonderful Imi woman, which was that depiction of the Imi and, like I said, a self portrait of herself. We're now moving into I'm looking at four gorgeous little works on board. They're about 20 by 30 centimeters.

这些描绘的是胸绘艺术。当我们谈论奥乌利仪式与女性身体彩绘时，她正是从这些小型胸绘开始创作的，作品极具私密性。而后才过渡到你提到的那些种子状图案的画作。

They're depictions of the breast painting. So when we talk about the Awuly and the women painting up. So she started with those breast painting, and they're very small. They're very intimate works. And then we move across to when you're talking about seed like paintings.

这幅作品名为《无形之梦》，同样创作于1989年初。你现在看到的是这些异常修长的线性物体，它们是神圣的草。尤拉和阿玛吉拉妇女会去采集这些神圣草种的所有种子，将它们全部摘取下来。

It's a work called Intange Dreaming, again painted early, nineteen eighty nine. What you're looking at right now is these extraordinary long linear things. They're sacred grasses. What the Yaura and Amadjira women do is they go and they collect all the seeds of these sacred grasses. They pull them all off.

她们把种子放在磨石上研磨混合，加入水形成糊状物。这不是烹饪食物，而是来自她故土的神圣之草。在她绘画生涯的前三年里，她持续描绘着这些元素。你还提到了那些神奇的伊米足迹岩画。

They put them on a grinding stone, and they grind them together, and they mix water in it. And it's a paste. It's not something that is cooked, but these are the sacred grasses of and what is from her country. And she depicts them right throughout the first three years of her painting career. You also mentioned these amazing lichenography Imi footprints.

现在我们看到的是她早期与伊米相关的作品，画作中出现了这些精美的小脚印。这个展厅里约有六幅画作呈现此元素，同时你还能看到非凡的地图描绘。某些画布上呈现着我们称为梦境线、歌之路的路径，有些则代表水源渗透区。我们眼前这幅杰作名为《国度与伊米踪迹》，虽尺幅不大，但画面中央环绕着灰蓝色的圆形水道——那是鸸鹋踩踏神奇泉眼的地方，泉水由此流向非凡的水潭。

So, again, we're looking at, you know, her earlier work with the Imi, but now we've got these gorgeous little footprints in these paintings. And in this room, it appears in about six different paintings, but then you've got all this extraordinary mapping. So some of these beautiful canvases have what we call our dreaming lines, our song lines, our pathways, and some of them are also representing water soakages. So we're standing in front of a wonderful work, which is called Country and the Immu Tracking. This extraordinary work is not a large work, but it's got this round circular gray waterway in the middle of the painting, and that is where the emus go, press their foot on this amazing spring, and the water runs down to this extraordinary waterhole.

所以，是

So, is

这些地图般的表现形式太有趣了。首先它们美得令人窒息，但同时也感觉...既然它们与土地如此紧密相连，那些水道和行走路线是否就是对地图的具象描绘？几乎像是在用绘画重走他们的足迹。

so interesting the way that these map like forms. They're, first of all, just so breathtakingly beautiful, but also it feels like, I mean, as they are just so connected to the land, are they literal depictions of maps in terms of the way that their water passages and the way they walk? And it's almost like they're retracing their steps in painting.

我们原住民中还有被称为'治愈者'的能人，他们讲述穿越国土医治他人的经历。埃玛尔虽非此类人，但这些作品确实呈现了地貌景观。她自幼年至成年行走于这片土地，在白人到来之前，这是唯一的出行方式。

We've got also our Aboriginal people that are Nuncrees or special healers, and they talk about the fact that they travel across country to heal others. Now, Emware was definitely not one of these people, but when you're talking about these works, it is these topographical views of country. You know, she traversed these countries. She walked this country as a child into her teens as an adult. Prior to, you know, white fellas coming on her country, there was no other way of getting around.

因此她和族人对故土了如指掌。当我说某条线通向水潭，某条线通向洞穴时——这正是你现在所见——这就是埃玛尔与故土之间至深的羁绊。

So she and her people knew her country so intimately. So when I'm saying that there's a map to a waterhole, another map to a cave, and that's what you're just sort of looking at. That's how intimate Emare was with her country.

不可思议。她穿越了陆地、天空与水域。我们看到的也是星空吗？因为这些图案同样像是星辰的排列。

Extraordinary. And she traversed, you know, land, skies, water. Are we looking at the sky as well? Because they also feel like kind of a constellation of stars as well.

当然。作为原住民，整个宇宙对我们都至关重要。我们和所有人一样借助星辰辨别方位。所以你看到的那些光点很可能就是星辰——有些画作当你凝视时，它们确实像在对你眨眼。

Oh, absolutely. I mean, the whole world is so important to us as Aboriginal people. We use the stars as everyone does to move around country. And so what you're seeing that are stars, you know, could well be. I mean, some of these paintings are definitely, like, blinking at us when you look at them.

现在我正在观赏《故土之灵》，这是幅精妙绝伦的含蓄之作。画中渐隐的粉色光点，此刻正如对你眨眼的星辰。

I am looking at now spirit my country, which is a wonderful, very subtle work, but there's these pinks that are disappearing out of the rest of the painting that are just like stars that are winking at you right now.

我知道。我是说，我一直保持着微笑，因为能亲眼目睹这一切真的非常特别，而且当我们看着它们时，它们正在变化，就像我们眼前闪过一颗流星般转瞬即逝。

I know. I mean, I keep smiling because it's really quite extraordinary to witness in person and the way that they're changing as we look at them, it is like they're seeing a sort of shooting star blinker in front of us.

是的。看，宇宙是梦境的重要组成部分。要知道，即便试图解释'梦境'这个概念——梦境关乎我们的祖先存在，关乎我们的先人与故土。这是世代相传的故事，我们正讲述给孩子们听。

Yeah. Look, cosmos is a big part of the dreaming. And, you know, even to try to explain the dreaming as a concept, the dreaming is about our ancestral beings. It is about our ancestors and countries. It's the stories that are being told forever that we are telling our children.

所以伊玛尔描绘着伊穆梦境，同时也绘制亚姆梦境。这些故事，你知道的，正在被内心传颂着。

And so Imare paints the Imu dreaming and she also paints the Yam dreaming. And so they're stories that are being, you know, internally told.

好的。我们继续吧？现在我们看到这些名为'铅笔薯'的作品，请为我们介绍一下。

Okay. Shall we move on? So, we're looking at these works, which are called Pencil Yam. Tell us about this.

好的。在阿尤拉和马吉拉语中，铅笔薯叫做诺里拉。当你观察铅笔薯时，首先会看到地表上的藤蔓——那些浮在地表的绿叶就是最初发现薯类存在的标志。

Yeah. Well, ayaura and a matjira word for Pencil Yam is norilla. When you're looking at the Pencil Yam, first you start off with the vine that is on top the surface of the ground. So you're looking at these green leaves that are on top of the surface. That is the first indication that there is a yam or pencil yam around.

妇女们会顺着这些横跨红色沙漠的藤状结构寻找。接着你会发现地下根系，更奇妙的是会找到白色小种子——那是卡玛种子，那是伊玛尔的丛林印记，是她的身份象征。

So the ladies go looking for this vine like structure that goes across the red sandy desert. And then what happens is underneath you've got these subterranean roots. And then another exciting thing is you find these little white seeds. That is the karma seed. That is emare, that is her bush stain, that is who she is.

再往深处挖掘就能找到薯块，这种可食用的根茎结构是非常重要的食物来源。

And then go one step deeper and then you find the yam. And that is that edible root structure that is so important for food source.

为什么艾米丽想要与'卡玛'（艾米丽·卡旺瓦瑞）这个名字产生关联？

And why did Emily want to be associated with the calm, Emily Kawangwari?

这是她祖父取的名字，是丛林名。在白人到来之前，她就以这个名字被熟知，家人一直称她为卡玛。

She was named that by her grandfather. That was the bush name. That was what she was known as before any white fellas ever came around. That's what her family called her, Karma.

现在我们继续观展。最令人惊叹的是，你如此生动地将澳大利亚土地展现在我们面前。穿过这个狭长如隧道的展区时，左侧看似画作的内容其实是她故乡的影像——你能真切感受到这片布满树木的干燥黏土地貌的样貌与气息。

And so we move in the exhibition. I think what's extraordinary is how much you bring the land of Australia alive to us. We are passing through this sort of small passage, this almost tunnel like section in the exhibition where you might think that what you're looking at is a painting on the left, but it's actually an image of her country. And you understand what it looks and what it feels like, this dry clay like land with all these kind of trees on top of them.

你现在看到的这幅美丽画作出自年轻的凯蒂什艺术家迪伦·里弗之手。迪伦是这次展览中唯一的男性参与者。他来到现场，拍摄了埃姆瓦尔家乡的风景，还录制了女性们彩绘、舞蹈和参与沃利亚仪式的视频，这些也会在展览中呈现。我们决定将这张照片放大展出，让人们能更直观地...该用什么词来形容呢？

The beautiful image you're looking at right now is a young Ketish artist, Dylan River. Dylan is the only male, I've gotta say, that worked on this exhibition. He came out, took some photos of Emware's country, and also video footage that you'll also see in this exhibition of the ladies painting up and dancing and participating in a woolya. And so we decided to include this photograph and blow it up. It's really good for people to what is a word?

产生共鸣

To connect to.

没错。观众会有种身临其境的感觉。艾米丽的绘画生涯其实很短暂，但她一生却创作了三千多幅作品。我个人最喜欢她1992到1993年间的作品。

Yeah. They felt transported there in a way. That's right. Emily's career as a painter was actually very short, yet she made over 3,000 works in her life. And I have to say my favorite are her works from sort of 1992, 1993.

走进这个展厅时，我们都会被这幅名为《卢尔克拉》的巨作震撼——它由多块画板拼接而成。22块画板交织着粉红、大红、蓝与绿的色彩。这里看到的不是干燥荒芜的风景，而是水光潋滟或粉霞漫天的作品。1992年发生了什么转变？

You know, we come into this room, and we are struck by this extraordinary painting, which is known as a lulcra, which is all these panels which are put together. We've got 22 panels, and they are pinks, reds, blues, greens. We're seeing works that are not sort of dry, arid landscape. We're seeing water like works or pink like works. What happens in 1992?

这是《阿洛卡组画》的22联幅作品。虽然由独立画板组成，但属于同一件创作。画中迸发的色彩正如我们这片充满生机的土地。若由我来绘制，白昼时分的故土会呈现出万花筒般的绚烂——这片土地对她意义非凡。

So it is a 22 panel work of the Allorca Suite. It is one work even though they are individual panels. The bursts of color within the painting, our country is alive with color. In what I would have painted this during the daytime, it is a kaleidoscopic view of her country. Her country meant so much to her.

她正在描绘心中至宝，并赋予其无尽光芒。想象从晨光熹微到暮色四合，大地变幻的色泽；再感受四季轮转的韵律。这是她的里程碑式杰作，她曾直言：'我的故土如此美丽，这正是人们热爱我画作的原因'。

She is painting something that is so precious to her and is giving it so much light. Think about the light from the morning to the sunrise to the sunset. The country changes. And then think about the seasonal changes. So this is her monumental work, her piece de resistance, and she's even quoted to say that my country is beautiful, and that's the reason people love my paintings.

她此时也开始创作更大尺幅的作品。是因为获得更多认可了吗？这个阶段她的人生有什么变化？

She starts to work on a larger scale here as well. Is it because she's gaining more recognition? I mean, what's happening in her life at this point?

好问题。伊梅德当时发展得非常好，她同时与多位经销商合作（不仅一位），根据不同经销商的需求进行创作。

Yeah. That's a really good question. Imade was doing extremely well. She had a couple of dealers, not just one. Her work was in high demand depending on which dealer she was working with.

以《阿洛格拉组画》为例，原本是小幅易处理的画布，但最终拼接成了12米的巨作。而像《莫娜》这样的三米大画布，她会坐在中央向外延展创作。具体形式取决于经销商的诉求。你提到的三千幅画作——据传她确实创作了两到三千幅。

If we refer back just to the Allogra Suite, they are small manageable canvases, but have been joined together to make this huge 12 metre work. So then beside me or behind me, there's works like Mona, which are three meter large canvases, which she would sit in the middle and work her way out. So it depended on what dealer wanted her to do. And you mentioned 3,000 paintings. It is said she painted two to 3,000 paintings.

由于她与众多经销商合作，实际数量无人知晓。但归根结底，她是掌握自主权的艺术家，始终决定着自己的创作方式和合作对象。

None of us really know how many paintings she did paint because she worked with quite a few different dealers. But at the end of the day, she was that businesswoman, and she decided where she wanted to paint and who with as well.

这次展览中我另一件钟爱的作品名为《我的国度》，你将其描绘成翻腾的彩色云团与蜿蜒图案，中央形态周围点缀着精细的黑点区域。我的意思是，这也很有趣，因为她开始尝试新的创作方式。这里有边界，但同时也感觉更具表现力，这件作品。

Another one of my favorite works in this show is called My Country, which you write as billowing clouds of color and winding patterns punctuated by an area of fine black dotting around a central form. I mean, is also interesting because she's starting to work in a new way. We've got borders here, but also it feels more expressive, this work.

你提到这幅画的边界很有意思。我们眼前这幅画相当特别，因为Emwatai并没有画满整个画布边缘，实际上是收藏家——作品的主人决定不将画布包边。所以我们看到和讨论的是裸露的黑色边框或黑色画布。通常她的其他作品都是包边的，你只能看到色彩。现在这是场色彩的爆发，但这幅画真正重要的是，它实际上代表着我们在Alulcra谈到的重要洞穴。

Well, it's interesting you're talking about this border on this painting. The painting we're standing in front of right now is quite unusual in the sense that Emwatai hasn't painted all the way to the edges, but it's actually the collector, the person who owns the work themselves who have not decided to wrap the canvas around. So what we are looking at and what we're talking about is a exposed black border or black canvas. And usually when you're looking at her other paintings, they've been pulled around so you only see the color. Now it is an explosion of color, but what is really important about this painting, this painting actually represents the important cave that we talk about in Alulcra.

那些精致的翻腾圆点代表着天空洞穴，位于她的国度，这对她至关重要。

The fine billowing dots that represents that sky cave, which is in her country, which is really important to her.

哇。这个洞穴为何如此重要？

Wow. And what is so significant about this cave?

这个洞穴非常独特，因为它实际上是在一块巨大的单体岩石中，而且高悬于天空。我们之前没提到，在二号展厅有El Mare国度及那个岩层的无人机影像。而这幅《我的国度1993》正代表着那个非凡的洞穴。

Well, cave is so unusual because the cave is actually in a big monolith rock form, and it's in the sky. And we didn't mention this, but in room two, we have drone footage of El Mare's country and of that rock formation. And this painting, my country 1993, represents that extraordinary cave.

当我们进入下一个展厅时，作品更侧重于线条的表现。能为我们讲解下吗？

And then as we get into this next room, it becomes so much more about line. I mean, tell us about this.

现在你看到的这些——我们已足够了解Mare的作品，讨论过她画中的具象蜥蜴元素（imus），经历了色彩的爆发，现在来到这个充满美丽条纹的展厅。我不认为这是抽象，我看到的是纯粹的身体彩绘手势，这些作品正是表现这个。整个展厅的作品都在脉动。

What you're looking at now you know, we've talked a bit in Mare's works enough to say we've looked at the figurative works of the lizards in her work, the imus, then we've gone into the explosion of color. And now we're in this room where they're all beautiful striped lines. Now I don't see abstraction. I see full on gestural body paint, and that's what they're all representing. These works are pulsating in this room.

这个展厅的能量非同寻常。这里全是awulya（仪式彩绘）。你可以看到贯穿胸部、手臂的线条。这些作品毫无阻碍，此刻我们目光所及之处，尽是女性的身体彩绘。

The energy of this room is extraordinary. This is just all awulya. So you can just see the lines across the breast, across the chest and across the arms. So there's nothing obstructive about these works. This is just, you know, women's body painting in every corner that we're looking right now.

有时她会画水平线，看起来几乎像地图矢量线。但我最喜欢这些垂直线条，因为那种奔涌的能量感就像瀑布——干涸的瀑布。

And, you know, sometimes she paints horizontal lines, which almost look like kind of map vectors or something. But my favorite of these are these vertical lines, just because of the way the gushing of the energy almost feels like a waterfall, but a dry waterfall.

是啊。她的笔触令人惊叹不是吗？充满手势感。当创作者拥有如此深厚的仪式背景且常年作画时，她挥洒的笔触——看着那些画笔留下的痕迹，你几乎能想象她如何握持画笔在那神奇画布上拖曳。看似简单，但为何如此打动人心？

Yeah. Well, her mark making is amazing, isn't it? It's gestural. When you've got someone who has got such a ceremonial background and painting all the time, the mark that she has pulled down, you know, when we're looking at that line of that brush, you can just imagine how her hand gripped that paintbrush and dragged it along that amazing canvas. And then not much to it when you look at it, but why do they move you so much?

因为我认为当你欣赏艾米丽的作品时，它们会随着你的注视而改变——你或许以为它们呈现的是某种形态，但实际上你会发现底下隐藏着各种不同的色彩，它们就在你眼前以某种方式流动变幻。

Because I think when you're looking at Emily's works, they change as you look at them because you might think that they're one thing, but actually you've noticed all these different colors sort of hidden underneath and they just kind of change. They're sort of moving in front of you in a way.

完全正确。这个展厅里的作品自始至终都充满动感。我们现在看到的是1995年的作品，她于1996年离世。这个时期的画布变得越来越薄。

Absolutely. This room here is pure movement the whole way through this. This is 1995 we are right now. She passes away in 1996. The canvases are getting thinner.

出现了多联画形式。她年岁渐长，当时画商开始提供适合她身体状况的创作材料。她创作力旺盛，渴望继续工作。

There's multi panels. She is getting older. And so, you know, the dealer at this point is given her works that she can work with. She's prolific. She wants to continue to work.

但也能感受到画商们温柔呵护她的心意。正如我说的，她仍坚持创作，此时她的作品备受追捧。眼前这些作品曾参展1997年威尼斯双年展澳大利亚馆，虽然她已离世，但这些作品是在她去世前一年完成并得以展出的。

But there's also this gentleness of her dealers trying to look after her. You know, she still wants to produce, like I said. She's really in high demand here. At this point, we're looking at works which were in the nineteen ninety seven Venice Biennale in the Australian Pavilion. She had passed away by that stage, but these works were created in the year prior to passing and then could be displayed.

所以这些作品广为人知，能把它们重新集结展出真是太好了——这些作品除了在威尼斯双年展联展过，从未在其他展览同时亮相。

So people know these works, and it's really great bring these works back together and works that have been shown together at the Venice Biennale but in no other exhibition.

展览中引用了许多非凡的评论，请允许我朗读其中一段：'如果你闭上眼睛用心灵之眼观想这些画作，会看见它们开始变幻。它们是真实的。诺瓦雷所描绘的生机勃勃且真实不虚。这些画作充满动态，不断变化，你能感受到它们何其逼真。'

I mean, you've got these extraordinary quotes up in the exhibition, but I'm just gonna read one if that's alright. It says, if you close your eyes and imagine the paintings in your mind's eye, you will see them transform. They are real. What Noire painted is alive and true. The paintings are dynamic and keep on changing, and you can see how realistic they are.

你可能会疑惑：这些画作为何会变形？那片神奇的土地就像这些画作一样会变色。大地在自我蜕变，这些画作亦是如此。这就是为什么那位老妇人如此著名。

You might wonder, hey. How come these paintings are changing form? That powerful country changes color just like the paintings do. The country transforms itself, and those paintings do as well. That's why the old woman is famous.

这段话太打动我了。

I love that.

是不是很美？这段话出自珍妮弗·珀维斯和乔西·伊姆瓦尔之手。2023年3月我们举办女性营地活动时获得了这段文字，当时我们带着约16位女性乘四驱车重返故土。与她们共处的时光充满魔力，她们深爱着马雷地区，那句'那位著名的老妇人'的表述多么动人。

Isn't that beautiful? Yes. That is by Jennifer Purvis and Josie Imware, and we got that quote when we did a wonderful women's camp back in March in 2023 where we took about 16 of the women out back to country on a lolcra. It was just magical working with them, and they love in Mare and, you know, that beautiful term, that old lady is famous.

现在我们站在最后一个展厅，眼前这幅震撼人心的作品《山药与沃利亚》创作于她去世前一年的1995年。黑色画布上这些令人着迷的线条仿佛在同步流动，让人完全沉醉其中。她是以很快的速度作画吗？请为我们讲讲这幅作品。

And, you know, we're standing in the last room and there is this extraordinary painting called Yam and Wallia, which is from 1995, the year before she died, which is on a black canvas and it is these kind of just mesmeric lines that are moving. They almost look like they're moving at the same time. You feel so enraptured by them. I mean, did she paint at speed? I mean, tell us about this work.

她精力充沛

She had a lot

她语速很快，笑声爽朗，动作敏捷。正如你所说，这里展现的正是这种能量的爆发。

of energy. She spoke fast. She laughed a lot. She moved very quickly. And so what you're seeing here is, like you're saying, is this explosion of energy.

这些线条相互交织缠绕，红黄白三色交融。这些作品再次展现了色彩的深邃。而yama woollya（原住民术语），这又是如此重要的一点。

These lines that are weaving back into each other. They're interlocking with each other. Reds, yellows, whites. There's, again, the depth of color within these works. And yama woollya, again, this is something that is so important.

当你站在它面前时，只会惊叹：天啊，这难道不美得令人震撼吗？

And when you're standing in front of it, just go, gosh, isn't that beautiful and amazing?

她的作品让你从无数角度思考脚下土地、所处世界与自然。这难道不美妙吗？

She makes you think about the ground so much and the world that you live in and nature in so many ways. Isn't that lovely?

我们原住民做任何事都深深扎根于土地。她也是如此——她的绘画扎根土地，她的步伐也扎根土地。她是位娇小却坚韧的女性。

I mean, us Aboriginal people, we are so grounded in everything that we do. She was very grounded. She was grounded in the way that she painted. She was grounded in the way she walked as well. She was a little strong woman, but she was staunch.

所以我真的非常欣赏这一点。

So I I do really like that, you know.

完全同意。你刚才说最爱的画作在这个展厅？

Totally. Did you say your favorite painting is in this room?

我得承认喜欢的画作实在太多。现在讨论的Yama Williou我很爱，不过我们已在末厅。眼前这幅10米蜡染来自Janet Holmes Court收藏。她早期创作蜡染而非后期，但我们希望以她艺术生涯的起点作为展览终章。

I do say I've got way too many favorite paintings. I do love Yama Williou, which we are talking about now, but we are in the last room. And so what we're also looking at is this wonderful 10 meter batik from the Janet Holmes Court Collection. We know that she did batik at the beginning, but not at the end. But we wanted to end this show with a reminder of this is a practice that she started with.

观察这些笔触并与墙上画作对比，她始终未远离创作初心。看那些毛糙笔触，那些挺立的惊艳草茎融入非凡蜡染，那些手势般的印记既存在于蜡染，也贯穿此刻我们欣赏的所有画作。

And you're looking at that mark making and comparing it to the paintings on the wall. She doesn't stay that far away from what she started with. You know? I can see it's with the woolly butt, the standing up fabulous grasses that are made into that extraordinary batiq and that gestural mark making that is in both the batiq and in all of these paintings that we are looking at now.

当我们看到这些，尤其是开篇那种道路般的构图，某些笔触几乎像是足迹。某种程度上，她在这里所做的正是将这一切融为一体。仿佛我们只是跟随着她，而它们都合而为一。我们跟随着同一片草叶的轨迹，那是唯一的地图。

When we saw those, especially the kind of road mapping at the beginning, the way that certain marks felt almost like footsteps. In a way, what she's doing here is she's almost bringing them all together. It's as though we're just following her and they're all sort of as one. There's one grass that we're sort of following around. There's one map.

某种意义上，我们正在审视她一生中留下的所有足迹或印记。这一切仿佛都在这间展厅里交汇融合。

And in a way, we're looking at all the footprints or all the marks she made throughout her life. It all sort of feels to come together in this room.

能见证这一切难道不是我们的幸运吗？你说得完全正确。她的故事贯穿整个展览——鸸鹋、山药、羊毛草、因果种子，这些元素流动在每间展厅。即便此刻我们凝视这些具象的线条，那依然是羊毛草的意象，我们仍以她的仪式作结。

Aren't we lucky that we get to see it all? And you're absolutely right. Her story follows all the way through this exhibition. The emu, the yam, the woolly butt grasses, the karma seeds, they all just flow through this exhibition, and they're in almost every room. And even in this room now, even though we're looking at these extraordinary tangible lines, that is still a woollya, and so we're still finishing with her ceremony.

你希望观众从这个展览中获得什么？

What do you want people to take away from this exhibition?

首先也是最重要的，我希望人们来感受并爱上它。希望人们理解我们原住民的身份——我们拥有非凡的艺术家。我们的艺术家登上国际舞台并非新鲜事，去年阿奇·摩尔刚在威尼斯双年展斩获金狮奖。

First and foremost, I want people to come and love it. I want people to appreciate who we are as aboriginal people. I want people to understand that we have extraordinary artists. I mean, this is not new that our artists are on the international stage. I mean, Archie Moore just won the golden line last year at the Venice Biennale.

请带着开放的心态来看展，因为这些画作本身已足够震撼。但若结合背景资料阅读，我们确实努力诠释了我们的故事。我希望人们真正明白：我们是充满自豪的原住民。正如姆瓦尔用画作表达的，她是这片土地骄傲的女儿。

And, you know, come to the show with open eyes because I think what you'll get first and foremost is these paintings are just so beautiful. But then to contextualize it and read the material, we've really have tried to explain our stories. And I want people to really understand that we are very proud Aboriginal people. And in Mware, as she said with her paintings, was a proud woman of her country.

太精彩了。凯莉·科尔，非常感谢你今天做客播客。我还有个问题——既然节目叫《伟大女艺术家播客》，如果你能对艾米丽·康瓦瑞说些什么，你会对她说什么？

Extraordinary. Kelly Cole, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. I have one more question. As it says, the great woman artist podcast. If you could say anything or ask Emily Kangwari, what would you say to her?

其实我幼时应该对她说过些话，只是记不清内容了。但如果能再问她，我会请她用母语和我多说说话。我略懂些阿兰达语（与艾姆瓦尔的语言相近），但真希望能坐下来用她的语言深入交流。

You know, I probably would have said a few things to her, and I just wouldn't remember what they were because I was quite young. But if I was able to ask her again, I would actually ask her to speak to me more in language. I have a few, you know, words in the Oranda language, is Arandic, is similar to what Emware speaks. But I actually would have sat down with her more and really got to speak with her in language.

完全理解。再次感谢你今天做客。本期《伟大女艺术家播客》与精彩的凯莉·科尔畅谈艾米丽·卡姆恩瓦里的展览（伦敦泰特现代美术馆展至一月）。无论你是否能亲临伦敦观展，都请带着我们的声音漫步展厅——凯莉的见解充满魔力。这些作品必须亲睹，它们如此生机勃勃...

Totally. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. Listening to this episode of the great women artist podcast with the fantastic Kelly Cole speaking about Emily Karmenwari whose exhibition is at Tate Modern until January. Whether you can get to London and you can see this exhibition, please do put us in your ears as you walk around because Kelly's insights were just magic, and I really urge you to see these works in person. They are just vibrant.

它们脉动着，色彩近乎神圣。你能感受到艾米丽的情感与她对故土的热爱。本期音频由才华横溢的纳尔达·斯米利奇剪辑，感谢收听《伟大女艺术家播客》，我是凯蒂·哈塞尔。

They're pulsating. The colors are almost divine. You feel Emily's emotion and the love that she had for her country. This episode was sound edited by the brilliant Narda Smilich, and thank you so much for listening to this episode of the great woman artist podcast with me, Katie Hassell.