玛格达·基尼谈朱莉娅·玛格丽特·卡梅隆

大家好，欢迎回到《伟大女性艺术家》播客的第14季。

Hello, everyone, and welcome back to season 14 of the great women artists podcast.

我非常激动能为大家带来这个精彩的系列节目，包含与艺术家、作家、策展人等人士的对话。

I'm so thrilled to be bringing you a fantastic series featuring conversations with artists, writers, curators, and more.

在介绍赞助商之前，我很高兴地告诉大家我写了一本新书。

Just before I introduce our sponsor, I am very excited to let you know that I have written a new book.

《如何过上有艺术感的生活》将于2025年11月出版，书中收录了全年每一天都配有一位艺术家或作家的名言。

How to live an artful life is out on the sick on November 2025 and features a quote by an artist or writer for every day of the year.

从特雷西·艾敏到玛丽娜·阿布拉莫维奇，扎迪·史密斯到阿里·史密斯，南·戈尔丁到希尔顿·阿尔斯，还包括历史上的作家和艺术家。

Think Tracey Yemen to Marino Ramovich, Zadie Smith to Ali Smith, Nan Goldin to Hilton Als, plus historical writers and artists too.

在书中，他们为我们提供建议——从如何放慢脚步、关注日常，到将想法付诸实践。

In the book, they offer us advice from how to slow down and pay attention to daily routines and putting ideas into action.

每个月都有一个不同的主题。

Each month takes on a different theme.

例如，一月探讨'创意从何而来'。

For example, January is about where do ideas come from.

二月全是关于爱与激情。

February is all about love and passion.

八月讨论美。

August is about beauty.

十一月聚焦记忆。

November is about memory.

十二月则关于欢乐。

December is about joy.

因为在这样一个似乎越来越多人忘记观察的世界里，我们可以向那些仍在观察的人学习。

Because in a world where it seems that so many of us forget to look anymore, we can learn from those who do.

为了帮助读者将艺术家的箴言应用到生活中，我为每个条目都写了简短的感悟，以便在全年中为你提供指引和启发。购买链接已放在节目说明中。

And to help the reader feel like they can apply the artist's words to their life, I've written a short response to each entry to help guide and inspire you throughout the year, and I've linked to where you can preorder it from in the show notes.

现在介绍我们的赞助商，我很高兴地宣布本系列节目由莱维特收藏赞助。这是一个规模宏大、种类丰富的艺术收藏，过去八年来已完全专注于女性艺术家的作品。

And now for our sponsor, I am thrilled to say that this series is supported by the Levitt Collection, a vast and varied art collection which in the last eight years has become entirely focused on works by women artists.

您可以在法国穆让的FAM博物馆看到这些藏品，其中包含大量印象派、抽象表现主义和当代女性艺术家的作品。FAM是欧洲大陆首个完全致力于女性艺术的私人博物馆，由克里斯蒂安·莱维特主导建立，他还在该领域出版了三本研究专著。

You can find much of this made up of impressionists, abstract expressionists, contemporary artists, and more at FAM in Moujanne, France, the first private museum in Mainland Europe devoted entirely to female artists, spearheaded by Christian Levitt, who has published three research books in this area.

最近他们推出了《莱维特通讯》，这是一份基于订阅的月刊，为收藏家和经销商提供这一特定艺术市场的未来趋势建议。

Recently, they launched the Levitt Letter, a monthly subscription based letter advising collectors and dealers on the future trends in this specific art market.

订阅《莱维特通讯》的读者还将成为莱维特沙龙的会员，在这个社区里，克里斯蒂安会分享他的宝贵见解和专业知识，并让订阅者有机会直接参观他在佛罗伦萨和穆让的住所，以及参加每月网络研讨会。

Subscribers to the Levitt Letter also become members of the Levitt Lounge, a community where Christian shares his valuable insights and expertise and gives subscribers direct access to visiting Levitt's home in Florence and Muzhan and the monthly webinar.

通过这些平台，莱维特正将聚光灯投向那些塑造历史的女性创作天才，从伯特·莫里索到琼·米切尔。

Across all of these platforms, Levitt is shining a spotlight on the creative brilliance of women who have helped shape our history from Burt Morisseau to Joan Mitchell.

欲了解更多信息并订阅《莱维特通讯》及沙龙会员，请访问www.thelevittletter.com。

To learn more and subscribe to the Levitt Letter and Lounge, just head to www.thelevittletter.com.

您还可以购买这三本书，并通过www.famm.com规划您的FAM博物馆参观行程。

You can also purchase the three books and plan your visit to FAM at www.fam, that's famm,.com.

希望您喜欢本期节目。

I hope you enjoy this episode.

大家好，欢迎收听《伟大女性艺术家》播客，我是凯蒂·赫塞尔。

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the great women artists podcast with me, Katie Hessel.

有些人可能通过我在2015年10月创建的Instagram账号@thegreatwomenartists认识我，该账号每天都会推介从年轻毕业生到古典大师等不同阶段的女性艺术家。

Some of you might know me from the great women artists, an Instagram account I set up in October 2015, which celebrates female artists on a daily basis ranging from young graduates to old masters.

与Instagram账号类似，这个播客的宗旨也是颂扬来自不同背景和历史时期的女性艺术家。

Well, in a similar fashion to the Instagram, this podcast is all about celebrating female artists from a variety of backgrounds and histories.

我非常期待能采访艺术家们关于她们的职业生涯，或是与艺术家、作家、策展人及艺术爱好者们探讨对他们影响最深的女性艺术家。

And I'm so excited to be interviewing artists on their career or artists, writers, curators, or general art lovers on the woman artist who means most to them.

我希望通过这个播客以多种形式颂扬女性艺术家，让听众们能深入了解当下艺术界或艺术史上最杰出的女性创作者。

What I want this podcast to do is celebrate female artists in all different capacities so you, the listener, can gain a look into the greatest female artists working now or from art history.

非常激动地宣布，《伟大女性艺术家》播客本期的嘉宾是备受尊敬的策展人、作家兼摄影专家玛格达·基尼。

I am so excited to say that my guest on the Great Woman Artist podcast is the esteemed curator, author, and expert in photography, Magda Keeney.

现任堪培拉国家美术馆国际艺术部首席策展人。

Currently, head curator of international art at the National Gallery of Art, Canberra.

玛格达此前曾任堪培拉国家肖像馆策展人，更早前在伦敦国家肖像馆担任摄影高级策展人，期间她主导完成了该馆摄影藏品重大重组项目的呈现工作。

Magda was most recently curator at the National Portrait Gallery, Canberra, and before that, senior curator in photographs at the National Portrait Gallery in London, where she led the realization of a major re presentation of the photographs collection as part of the museum's rehaul.

她曾策划过多场展览并发表关于澳大利亚艺术、设计、社会历史及摄影的著述，研究范围涵盖维多利亚时期至时尚、冲突与肖像领域，包括为欧文·佩恩等众多艺术家策划个人肖像展。

She has curated shows and published text on Australian art, design, and social history, photography that ranges from the Victorian period to fashion, conflict and portraiture, solo presentations of portraits by Irving Penn, among many others.

她曾为具有里程碑意义的《知晓我名》项目撰稿，该项目将澳大利亚女性艺术家推向全球舞台，此外她还为辛迪·舍曼、世界女性摄影师史等项目撰文。

She has written for the groundbreaking Know My Name project that put women artists in Australia on a global stage, as well as for Cindy Sherman, a world history of women photographers, and more.

但真正吸引我的是她的展览《从弗朗西斯卡·伍德曼到朱莉娅·玛格丽特·卡梅隆：肖像与梦境》，这个展览将相隔百年、身处不同世界的两位摄影师作品并置，展现了这些先锋女性如何用充满美感、象征主义、古典气质与蜕变力量的梦幻影像重塑了摄影媒介。

But it was her exhibition Francesca Woodman and Julia Margaret Cameron portraits to dreaming that grabbed my attention, an exhibition that brought together the two photographers working a hundred years apart from very different worlds, circumstances, and contexts, but which showed how these pioneering women shaped the medium with their dreamlike pictures imbued with beauty, symbolism, classicism, transformation, and more.

我们已在播客的两期节目中讨论过弗朗西斯卡·伍德曼。

We have discussed Francesca Woodman already in two episodes on the podcast.

一期是与作家黛博拉·利维对谈，另一期是与遗产策展人卡塔琳娜·杰罗尼克对话。

One with the author Deborah Levy and another with the estate's curator, Katharina Jeronick.

今天，我无比激动地要深入探讨十九世纪摄影师朱莉娅·玛格丽特·卡梅隆的生平——她在1863年49岁时首次拿起相机，主要通过自学形成了独特的波西米亚风格，那些带着朦胧棕褐色调的作品不仅在维多利亚时期的英国影响深远，更对整个摄影界产生了巨大冲击。

So today, I couldn't be more excited to delve into the life of the nineteenth century photographer, Julia Margaret Cameron, who, at age 49 in 1863, picked up a camera for the first time and, largely self taught, crafted her distinctive Bohemian style pictures with that hazy sepia glow that proved not only to be influential in Victorian Britain, but have a huge impact on photography at large.

正如卡梅隆曾说：'我的理想是提升摄影的艺术地位，通过融合现实与理想，在忠于真实的前提下倾注全部可能来追求诗意与美感，使其具备高雅艺术的品格与价值。'

As Cameron once said, my aspirations are to ennoble photography and to secure it for the character and uses of high art by combining the real and ideal and sacrificing nothing of truth by all possible devotion to poetry and beauty.

玛格达·基尼，欢迎来到播客。

Magda Keeney, welcome to the podcast.

你今天过得怎么样？

How are you doing today?

天啊。

Oh my god.

凯蒂，我可是《伟大女性艺术家》播客的超级粉丝。

Katie, I am such a huge fan girl of the Great Women Artists podcast.

能受邀参加真的让我既兴奋又荣幸。

So I'm so excited and honored to be here.

非常感谢邀请我并给予如此美好的介绍。

So thank you for having me and that beautiful introduction.

玛格达，非常感谢你能来参加节目。

Magda, thank you so much for coming on.

我也是你的忠实粉丝。

I'm a huge fan of yours as well.

当然还有朱莉娅·玛格丽特·卡梅隆，她在1860年代工作时开创了一种带有棕褐色调的摄影风格，让被摄者看起来充满波西米亚风情——从长发、发带、白袍到花朵，都与同时期的前拉斐尔派画家风格相呼应。

And of course, Julia Margaret Cameron who, working in the eighteen sixties, pioneered a photographic style with that sepia glow that made her sitters look bohemian, from long hair, headbands, white robes to flowers that chimed with the pre Raphaelite painters working at the same time.

每当我看到卡梅隆的照片时，都会被其纯粹天使般的美所震撼，同时也惊讶于它们看起来多么现代。

Whenever I see a photograph by Cameron, I am, I think, spellbound by its pure angelic beauty, but also how contemporary they look.

她的照片中有某种永恒的特质，让我觉得我可能认识这些女孩。

There is something so timeless about her photographs that make me think I might know these girls.

所以我想先问你，是什么吸引你研究朱莉娅·玛格丽特·卡梅隆的作品？

So I want to start by asking you, what is it that draws you to Julia Margaret Cameron's work?

你知道吗，你已经说了很多，所有这些都吸引我去研究她的作品。

You know, you've said so much already, and all of those things draw me to her work.

我认为还有她作为开拓性女性艺术家的那种感觉，就像一位不可思议的女性艺术家。

I think also a sense of her as a path breaking woman, you know, like an incredible woman artist.

以及她在创作中带着如此勇敢的实验精神。

And the way she approached her practice with such a brave sense of experimentation in her work.

她如果犯了错误，就会去探索并将其转化为创作过程的一部分。

The way she, if she made mistakes, she explored that and made it part of her creative process.

完全同意。

Totally.

我特别喜欢这种实验精神，因为当你第一次看到她的作品时，那与1860年代艺术史上任何作品都截然不同。

I love that idea of experimentation because when you see her pictures for the first time, it is unlike anything you've seen in art history at that point in the eighteen sixties.

如果你想想1860年代的摄影，那时还是达盖尔银版法的时代。

If you think about photography in the eighteen sixties, that was the daguerreotype process.

这是一个基于摄影棚的创作过程，被广泛用于人像摄影。

It was a studio based process and it was used extensively for portraits.

而卡梅隆是位人像摄影师。

And Cameron is a portrait photographer.

要知道，19世纪60年代的影棚摄影看起来大概像名片格式照片，那些印在硬纸板上的小照片被大量制作和收藏。

You know, studio photography in the eighteen sixties probably looks like a carte de visite, a small photograph printed on a piece of cardboard or board that were sort of produced and collected.

所以卡梅隆的作品，她的人像虽然也是影棚肖像，但在规模、技术和艺术追求上都完全不同于那种摄影模式。

And so Cameron's prints, her portraits are studio portraits, but they're entirely different to that model of photographic practice, you know, in scale, in technique, in ambition.

因为几乎从一开始，尽管她承认刚接触摄影时对这个媒介知之甚少。

Because almost from the outset, even though she acknowledges that when she started photography, she didn't have a great deal of knowledge of the medium.

但她对艺术和美有着坚定的追求。

But she had this commitment to art and beauty.

如今我们认为这种追求理所当然，特别是在镜头媒介和摄影领域。

We take that for granted now, I think, with lens based media and photography.

但对于卡梅隆作为女性而言，她是在开疆拓土。

But for Cameron as a woman, she was trailblazing.

完全同意。

Totally.

我特别喜欢她的这句话。

I love this quote by her.

她说：'你的眼睛最能发现，你的想象力最能构想所有待完成和未竟之事'。

She says, your eye can best detect and your imagination conceive all that is to be done and is still left undone.

我特别欣赏这种理念——当她在1860年代创作时，摄影媒介的发展道路完全敞开。想想150年后的今天，摄影已经完全变革，而20世纪才是摄影的开拓时代，她却早已走在前列。

And I love this idea that when she's making in the 1860s, it's this kind of open road of what this medium is able to do and you think about one hundred and fifty years on, it has completely transformed and the twentieth century was the kind of time of pioneering photography and she was there before that.

几乎可以说是奠基人。

Lay the foundations almost.

要知道，卡梅隆在19世纪70年代就去世了。

Cameron, you know, dies in the eighteen seventy's.

她实际工作的时间还不到十五年就去世了。

It's less than fifteen years that she's actually working before she dies.

但她工作时的投入、信念和努力程度令人惊叹。

But she is working with such intensity and such conviction and working so hard.

二三十年后，二十世纪初出现了画意摄影主义，艺术家们开始接受摄影作为艺术的观点，探索媒介的表现可能性，而非早期摄影中占主导地位的科学性——而卡梅隆·叶正是在这条道路上发挥了关键作用。

Twenty or thirty years later at the beginning of the twentieth century, you have the advent of pictorialism, of artists embracing this idea of photography as art and the expressive possibilities of the medium or not primarily the scientific aspects of the medium that were prominent certainly in the early decades of photography and that Cameron Yeh was so instrumental in forging a path.

完全同意。

Totally.

她有哪幅作品特别打动你吗？是哪幅？为什么？

Is there one work by her that stands out to you and and what is it and why?

我在伦敦办展时，常有人问：‘展览中你最喜欢哪件作品？’

When I made the show in London, people would ask, you know, which is your favorite work in the show?

我总暗自思忖，挑选单件作品就像从诗歌或歌曲中摘取某个词句。

And I would always reflect to myself that choosing a single work was kind of like choosing, you know, a single word or a line in a poem or a song.

如何能从整体中单独抽离出一部分呢？

How can you like take one, you know, from the whole?

不过话说回来，确实有些作品在不同时期特别吸引我。

But having said that, there are things that I think have been particularly interesting to me at different times.

尤其是她为侄女兼最爱模特朱莉娅·杰克逊拍摄的肖像——这位弗吉尼亚·伍尔夫和瓦妮莎·贝尔的母亲——简直惊艳绝伦。

Certainly the portraits of her niece and favorite sitter, Julia Jackson, who was the mother of Virginia Woolf and Vanessa Bell are incredible.

这位模特在她的作品中从不扮演其他身份或角色。

And she's a sitter that doesn't assume another identity or a persona or a character within her work.

她以真实自我呈现，这些肖像美得不可思议。

She is represented as herself and they're incredibly beautiful.

所以我非常钟爱这些作品。

So I love those.

展览中还有幅作品叫《忧伤》。

There was also a work in the show actually, and it's called Sadness.

这是一幅女演员埃伦·特里的肖像，她年轻时嫁给了画家GF·瓦茨，并因此进入了卡梅伦的社交圈。

And it's a portrait of the actress Ellen Terry, who when she was very young, married the painter, GF Watts and came into the circle of Cameron at that time.

这段婚姻很短暂。

And it was a short lived marriage.

但当时卡梅伦为她拍摄了肖像。

But at that time, Cameron made portraits of her.

这幅画面非常优美——特里斜倚在花纹墙纸前，手持项链，是一幅极具反思性的肖像。

And it's such a beautiful image where Terry's kind of leaning against this patterned wallpaper and she is holding a necklace and it's a very reflective portrait of her.

我们在MPG展示的这幅来自盖蒂的印刷品，是椭圆形格式的照片。

In the print that we showed at the MPG, which came from the Getty, it's an oval format photograph.

在椭圆底部，部分感光乳剂已经剥落。

And in the bottom of this oval, part of the emulsion is peeled back.

因此这里形成了一种虚无，一种缺失。

And so this is kind of void in it, this absence.

而卡梅伦保留了这张照片。

And Cameron keeps the print.

这个看似技术缺陷的瑕疵，却在画面构图中显得如此凄美而富有深意。

So so there's this perhaps technical error, but it's so poignant and beautiful and meaningful within the composition of the image.

卡梅伦不仅保存了它，还在上面签名并题名《忧伤》。

Cameron keeps it and she signs it and she titles it sadness.

这种技术上的不完美反而成为她摄影创作不可或缺的部分。

And this technical inconsistency becomes integral to her picture making.

这真是一幅绝妙迷人、充满细腻情感的肖像，展现了非凡女性埃伦·特里的神韵。

It's just such a gorgeous, beguiling, kind of sensitive portrait of an incredible woman, Ellen Terry.

这幅肖像之所以非凡，是因为它看起来如此具有现代感。

This portrait is so extraordinary because it looks so contemporary.

我仿佛能认识这个女孩，但卡梅伦摄影的力量更在于她能如此强烈地展现人物的内心世界。

I feel like I could know this girl but also I think the power of Cameron's photographs is also this ability to show someone's inner psyche so strongly.

我是说艾伦的眼睛低垂着，她紧握着项链，但你能感觉到她内心的波澜，我觉得这太美了，以至于你将她的展览命名为《梦中肖像》。不仅我们作为观众能在这些作品中入梦，更奇妙的是，你会觉得卡梅隆镜头下的被摄者在我们凝视时也正做着梦——这种体验在绘画中极为罕见，尤其是在十九世纪六十年代。

I mean Ellen's eyes are looking down, she's clutching onto her necklace but you feel like there's something going on internally which I thought was so beautiful that you titled her exhibition Portraits to Dream in as not only do we as viewers get to dream in these works but you feel like the actual sitters in Cameron's work are dreaming as we're looking at them and that's so rare in you know painting first of all especially in the eighteen sixties.

你知道这是个漫长的过程，过去人们总是睁着眼睛拍照，但摄影术突然让这种新体验成为可能。

You know it was a very long process and people always had their eyes open but photography can suddenly allow for this new thing.

它让我们得以解锁人物不同的精神状态。

It can allow us to unlock different states of people.

关于《梦中肖像》，你想讲述怎样的故事？

You know with portraits to dream in, what story did you want to tell?

作为策展人，我感兴趣的一点是思考我们如何接纳那些伟大的英雄或女杰——在本案例中。

I think one thing that I'm interested in as a curator is thinking about how we receive our great heroes or heroines in this case.

我确实记得当时在VNA时，伦敦国家肖像美术馆正在举办茱莉亚·玛格丽特·卡梅隆的大型展览。

I do remember being at the VNA and at that time there was a major Julia Margaret Cameron show on at the National Portrait Gallery in London.

那时我并未在那里工作。

I didn't work there at that time.

关于她有太多论述，你知道的，太多重要研究已经完成。

There was so much said about her, you know, so much important work had been done.

当时我内心的疑问是：我还能提出什么新见解吗？

And a question that I had at that time was, is there anything new that I could add?

于是我开始思考弗朗西斯卡·伍德曼与茱莉亚·玛格丽特·卡梅隆的联系，因为我想探讨摄影实践的本质。

And then I started thinking about Francesca Woodman and Julia Margaret Cameron, because I wanted to think about photographic practice.

我们数百年的历史或许被呈现为线性发展，但我们深知历史并非如此。

You know, our history for hundreds of years may have been presented as linear, but we know that it's not linear.

所以当时的初步构想是：如果以伍德曼的作品为起点，将她的创作与卡梅隆进行反向对照会怎样？这打破了艺术史惯常的线性叙事——从早期艺术家出发，机械地追溯某位艺术家对另一位的影响。

So an early thought around that time was thinking about an artist like Francesca Woodman and thinking about, you know, if we started with the work of Woodman, what would happen if we took her work and looked back at Cameron rather than thinking in the usual linear methodology of art history of starting with the early artists and thinking about the literal influence of one artist on another.

因此将她们并置，实质是将摄影史上最重要的两位女性摄影大师进行对话。

And so putting them together was about bringing two of the most important photographers in the history of the medium together.

这两位艺术家的作品都蕴含着某种超越现实的隐喻性梦境叙事特质。

And there's this idea in both of the works of these artists, a kind of metaphorical dream like narrative quality that is transcending the real.

回到这两位艺术家的版画作品。

Going back to prints by both of these artists' works.

当我将它们并排放置时，对我来说这些对话开启了对两位艺术家作品的新思考方式。

When I sat them side by side, there was for me these conversations that spoke to new ways of thinking about both artists' work.

作为一个女性主义艺术史学家，这也让我摆脱了从传记角度解读伍德曼或卡梅隆作品的惯常方式。

That, for me as a feminist art historian also took away that kind of reading of either Woodman or Cameron from a biographical point of view.

两位女性都获得了广泛关注，但某种程度上她们的职业生涯都因过度关注生平际遇甚至外貌形象的解读方式而受到局限。

Both women have received substantial attention, but both women also I think have had their careers limited in a sense by a reading which is focused on biographical circumstance or even the way they look and present themselves.

因此我认为这是另一个重要的推动力

And so that was another, I I think, important impetus of

这次展览。

the show.

我认为这非常重要。

I think that's really important.

我以2024年的视角观看这次展览，能够用这种视角回望伍德曼七八十年代的照片。

I'm looking at the show from a perspective of someone who's in 2024 and I can look at the seventies and eighties of Woodman's photographs from that perspective.

但用这种视角观看卡梅隆的照片也很有趣，因为即使作品创作于十九世纪六七十年代，我们仍是以当下的眼光在观看。

But also I think looking at Cameron's photographs from that perspective is so interesting because I always think even if works are made in the eighteen sixties or seventies, we're still looking at them from the position of now.

能够引导我们看到现代性，了解70年代美国和意大利的思潮并将其应用于卡梅隆的作品，这令人非常兴奋。

And I think to be able to guide us and see modernity and see, you know, what was happening in America and Italy at that time of the 70s but apply it to Cameron's photographs is so exciting.

还有两位艺术家所涵盖的历史跨度。

And also the kind of range of history that both artists cover.

她们的美学极具超现实主义色彩，而伍德曼更是因其在超现实主义书店工作的经历而特意回溯这一流派。

You know, they're incredibly surrealist in their aesthetic but also Woodman was specifically looking back to the surrealism because she worked in the surrealist bookshop.

同样在古典元素方面，那些至今环绕着我们的立柱和女像柱。

And similarly with the classics, again, columns, these chariotids that surround us today even.

我也想探讨卡梅隆的生平，她原名朱莉娅·玛格丽特·帕蒂尔，1815年6月11日出生于加尔各答，在七姐妹中排行第四。

But I'd love to go into Cameron's life as well because she was born Julia Margaret Patil in Calcutta on the June 11 in 1815, the fourth of seven sisters.

其中之一

And one of

正如你所说，她的姐妹之一是玛丽亚，她是弗吉尼亚和瓦妮莎·贝尔的外祖母，这使得朱莉娅·玛格丽特·卡梅伦成为她们的曾姨母。

her sisters, as you said, was Maria, who was Virginia and Vanessa Bell's grandmother, making Julia Margaret Cameron the sister's great aunt.

那么跟我们说说她的家庭吧。

So tell us about her family.

他们是谁？

Who were they?

跟我们讲讲她的姐妹和父母。

Tell us about her sisters, her parents.

她在一个优渥的家庭中长大。

She grew up in a privileged household.

她的父亲是东印度公司的一名官员，母亲则有法国贵族血统。

Her father was an official in the East India Company, and her mother was descended from French aristocracy.

将卡梅伦的生平传记置于帝国和英国在印度的背景下考量，相当耐人寻味。

It's fairly interesting to consider Cameron's life and her biography in the context of empire and the British in India.

她虽出生于加尔各答，但实际受教育经历主要在欧洲。

So while she was born in Calcutta, of her education actually happened in Europe.

她曾前往法国，由外祖母在巴黎和凡尔赛进行教育，约18岁时返回印度。

So she went to France and she was educated by her grandmother in Paris and Versailles and then returned to India when she was about 18.

此后不久，她在南非度过了一段时间。

And not long after that, she spent some time in South Africa.

正是在那里，她遇到了她重要的导师兼老师赫歇尔。

And that's when she met Herschel, her great mentor and teacher.

但同时她也结识了她未来的丈夫亨利·海·卡梅伦。

But she also meets her husband to be, Henry Hay Cameron.

他们回到印度后便结婚了。

And they return to India and they get married.

她受过高等教育。

And she has been highly educated.

她享有极大的特权。

She has great privilege.

因此她成为了印度社交圈的核心人物，可以说是当时的上流社会名媛。

And so she becomes a kind of central figure in India as a kind of hostess, I guess, a society figure at that time.

这明显体现了她的文化修养与教育背景，使得她与丈夫、孩子们的关系也与众不同。

So there is a definite sense of her kind of cultural sophistication and her education that means when she and her husband and her children.

她还有六个孩子。

So she also has six children.

他们在19世纪40年代返回英国，她的姐妹们也都住在英国。

They returned to England in the eighteen forties and her sisters are also living in England.

她的姐姐莎拉·普林塞普在荷兰小屋建立了这个文艺沙龙。

And her sister Sarah Princep has set up this salon at Little Holland House.

所以朱莉娅·玛格丽特·卡梅隆被这个沙龙吸引也就不足为奇了。

And so it's not surprising that Julia Margaret Cameron kind of gravitates to this salon.

这里可以说是一个文化大熔炉，她结识了许多伟大的艺术家，包括前拉斐尔派的画家们，比如亨利·泰勒和丁尼生。

And this is this, I suppose, cultural melting pot where she's meeting great artists, the Pre Raphaelite painters, people like Henry Taylor, Tennyson.

我认为从这种文化社交地位来看她很有意思——作为女性，她占据的空间并非艺术家，而是作为女主人和母亲。

So I think it is interesting to consider her in terms of this cultural social position that as a woman, she occupies a space, not as an artist, but as a hostess and a mother.

但她确实是这种艺术圈层的一部分。

But she is part of this kind of artistic milieu.

她能够融入许多女性无法企及的领域。

She is able to inhabit that many women wouldn't be able to.

尽管我认为她建立艺术事业所需的勇气与坚韧是毋庸置疑的。

So whilst I think the courage and tenacity that she had to draw on to establish a career as an artist is undeniable.

我的意思是，要知道在19世纪，女性要维持摄影师或艺术家的职业极其困难，无论出身如何，因为当时社会对女性的期待是结婚、持家、相夫教子。

I mean, you know, a woman sustaining a career as a photographer or an artist was extremely challenging no matter what background you came from, because the expectation in the nineteenth century was that you were married and that you were in the domestic sphere and you were probably a mother.

所以她是在打破传统。

So she was breaking conventions.

但我认为同样有趣的是，她确实拥有一定程度的特权，周围那种文化圈层为她提供了走上这条道路的可能性。

But I think it is also interesting to think that she did have a degree of privilege, that kind of cultural community around her that gave her the possibility of going down that path.

完全同意。

Totally.

我是说，约翰·赫歇尔爵士实际上是1839年创造'摄影术'一词的人，正如你所说，他们在1836年相识。

I mean, Sir John Herschel was the person who actually coined the term photography in 1839 and as you say, in 1836, they met.

他是位天文学家，当时正在测绘南半球的星空。

He was an astronomer who was surveying the skies of the Southern Hemisphere.

我是说，给我们讲讲他以及那段关系吧。

I mean, tell us about him and that relationship.

我认为在摄影术早期，比如1839年达盖尔照相法的发明，这是首个可商业化持续生产照片的方法。

I think in the early years of photography, so, you know, the invention of the daguerreotype in 1839, it was the first commercially available sustainable method of making photographs.

它不同于我们熟知的照片，因为每件都是独一无二的。

It's not a photograph like we know it because it's a unique object.

它没有底片，所以是孤品。

It doesn't have a negative, so it's a one off.

这是用相机通过曝光形成的影像，但采用了截然不同的化学显影方法来定影。

And it's an image made with a camera and the exposure of light, but then a very different set of chemical developing methods that were utilized to fix.

这是摄影术面临的重大挑战。

That was a great challenge in photography.

如何固定影像使其不会褪色消失？

How could you fix this image so it didn't fade and disappear?

当时人们尝试了各种不同的方法。

There were all these different sorts of methods being trialed.

赫歇尔正是开发关键化学定影工艺的核心人物之一。

Herschel was one of the people who was really, really key in developing key chemical processes in that fixing process.

他不仅是一位著名的天文学家，还深深痴迷于摄影。

So not only was he a famous astronomer, but he was deeply engaged with photography.

卡梅伦称他为她的伟大导师和引路人。

And Cameron called him her great teacher and her great mentor.

在她开始摄影之前，他们一生都保持着联系。

And they stayed in contact throughout her life before she even started taking photographs.

赫歇尔会给她寄达盖尔银版和卡罗式摄影法的样本。

Herschel would send her examples of daguerreotypes and calotypes.

好的。

Okay.

这非常有趣，因为在1863年，49岁的她收到了女儿赠送的第一台相机。

This is so interesting because then in 1863, at the age of 49, she receives her first camera as a gift from her daughter.

我是说，这份礼物如何改变了她的生活？

I mean, how did this gift change her life?

当时这究竟是台什么样的相机？

And what even was this camera at this time?

在此之前，全家已回到英国，卡梅伦的丈夫和儿子们仍在殖民机构担任行政职务。

So before that, the family had come back to England and Cameron's husband and her sons are still working in the kind of colonial service and as administrators.

卡梅伦深爱的丈夫时常外出旅行。

Cameron's much loved husband is traveling from time to time.

其中一次丈夫外出时，卡梅伦去了丁尼生居住的怀特岛，那里还有另一个文化圈。

And on one of these trips when he is away, Cameron goes to the Isle Of Wight, which is where Tennyson lives and there's another sort of cultural community.

卡梅伦在那里购置了房产。

And Cameron buys property there.

丁尼生在那儿，狄更斯和卡莱尔等名流也在那里。

And Tennyson's there and people like Dickens are there and Carlisle.

其中一位是奥斯卡·雷兰德，他是19世纪非常重要的摄影师。

And one of those people was Oscar Raylander and he is a very important nineteenth century photographer.

卡梅伦在收到相机这份礼物前就与他相识。

And Cameron meets him before the gift of the camera.

维多利亚与阿尔伯特博物馆藏有一件非凡的作品，那是一幅名为凯特·多尔的女子的肖像，周围蕨类植物的边缘构成了类似底片上接触印相的画框。

And there is a fantastic work in the V and A, which is a portrait of a sitter woman called Kate Dorr and around the edges of these ferns that kind of make a frame that sort of like contact prints on the negative.

这被认为是雷兰德与卡梅伦的合作成果。

And that is thought to be a collaboration between Raylander and Cameron.

之后，她还整理了一本摄影集。

And after that, she assembles an album of photographs too.

可见她一直在摄影领域进行实验性的双重探索。

So she's, you know, experimenting, doubling in photography.

当收到这份礼物时，她最初坦言自己对摄影艺术一无所知，但正如我们所说，她全身心投入艺术与美的追求，并从中看到了某种可能性。

And then the gift comes and she acknowledges that at first, you know, I know nothing about the art of photography, but she's, you know, as we've said, absolutely committed to art and absolutely committed to beauty and sees this potential somehow.

但她收到的那台相机相当笨重，对于身着十九世纪那种蓬裙的女性而言操作十分不便。

But the camera that she received was quite unwieldy and hard for a woman to use in the kind of, you know, nineteenth century dress if you think about those kinds of large skirts and so forth.

因为这是台木质滑箱式相机。

Because it's a wooden sliding box camera.

它很沉重。

It's heavy.

操作相当繁琐。

It's cumbersome.

要拍摄肖像必须将相机固定在木质三脚架上，而且曝光过程缓慢。

To make a photograph, to make a portrait, you have to sit it on a wooden tripod and it's not a quick exposure.

需要制作玻璃板底片并置于这个木箱后部。

You have to make glass plate negatives which sit in the back of this wooden box.

这些工作卡梅伦都必须亲力亲为。

And Cameron had to do that herself.

她还得自行调配化学药剂。

She had to mix the chemicals.

她必须给这些板子上涂层，而且每一步都需要以极其精细的特定方式完成才能成功。

She had to coat the plates, which all had to be done in really specific kind of intricate ways for it to work out.

接着她需要装好相机、进行曝光，然后还得冲洗照片。

And then she had to load the camera and make the exposure and then she had to develop it.

但我觉得最有趣的是，她拥有如此精彩的人生和教育背景。

But I think it's so interesting how she, you know, had this incredible life and education.

我是说，我多希望能像只苍蝇一样趴在她怀特岛别墅的墙上——那座名为丁波拉的房子，就连弗吉尼亚·伍尔夫都曾描述过那里欢迎所有人，世俗规矩在那儿毫无立足之地。

Mean, I just would love to be a fly on the wall at her house in the Isle Of Wight, which is called Dimbola because, even Virginia Woolf talks about this idea that everyone was welcome, conventionalities had no place in it.

卡梅伦夫人

Mrs.

会邀请在轮船上偶遇的一家人共进午餐，却连对方姓名都不问；遇到悬崖边没戴帽子的游客，就请人家进屋自选一顶帽子。

Cameron would invite a family, met on the steamer to lunch without asking their names, would ask a hatless tourist met on the cliff to come in and choose himself a hat.

我太喜欢这种波西米亚式中心的设想了。

I love this idea that it was a bohemian center.

而且我认为女性选择摄影这门艺术很有深意——不同于绘画，摄影没有那种悠久的父权传统，不需要遵循特定创作规范。要知道十八世纪的皇家艺术学院早已为绘画划分等级，神话题材高居顶端，肖像画则被压在底层。

And also, I think there's something to be said about a woman trying photography, is this medium unlike painting, which doesn't have this long patriarchal, let's say, history of how you have to sort of go about doing certain things or how, you know, with painting the Royal Academy in the seventeen hundreds had established the hierarchy and how mythological painting was at the top and portraiture was at the bottom.

某种程度上说，摄影是个全新的世界。

In a way, photography was this whole new world.

和我们说说她的首次成功吧。

And tell us about her first success.

1864年安妮拍摄了那张著名照片。

So Annie was this photograph that she made in 1864.

她最初拍摄的对象是谁？

Who did she begin photographing?

她从拍摄身边人开始。

She started photographing the people around her.

她与家中的工作人员合作拍摄。

She works with the people who work in her household.

她与身边的孩子一起工作。

She works with children who are around her.

她谈到自己如何接触社区里形形色色的人，试图为他们拍摄肖像，但都不尽如人意。

And she talks about, you know, how she'd kind of bailed up different sorts of people in her community and tried to make portraits of them and none of them had kind of been what she wanted.

后来她记录下自己为安妮——安妮·菲尔波特——这个约莫九岁的女孩拍摄肖像的过程。

And then she documents herself, you know, sometime afterwards that she made these portraits of Annie, Annie Philpott, this girl who must be about nine years old.

那是一幅美丽的半身肖像，我认为其中已蕴含了她后续发展的诸多艺术特质。

And it's this beautiful head and shoulders portrait and there is within it I think many of the characteristics that she would continue to develop.

这是位女性被摄者，采用特写手法，照片聚焦于安妮的面部。

So it's a female sitter, it's a close-up, a photograph that kind of focuses on Annie's face.

画面中光影交织，已呈现出柔焦效果，她在冲印时意识到了这点。

There's this kind of play between light and dark in the image and there is already this kind of soft focus effect and she recognizes it when she prints it.

她所追求的艺术效果在这张照片中得以实现，这令她欣喜若狂。

That something that she was aiming for has been captured in this print and she's thrilled.

她不遗余力地记录这是她的成功，标志着某种艺术生涯的起点。

She goes to kind of pains to record that it is her success and that this is a starting point of some kind.

她更进一步详细描述创作过程——我这样处理那样调整——简直像在宣示主权：我是一名艺术家。

She kind of goes further and even details the process and I did this and I did that and it's almost like she was putting her flag in the ground and saying, you know, I am an artist.

随后她继续创作出《圣母与孩童》和《良善》等惊艳作品。

And then she goes on to make these gorgeous pictures such as Madonna with Children or Goodness.

你认为她是否通过母亲或女性的视角，为这些艺术史上根深蒂固的主题注入了新意？

I mean, do you think there's anything about maybe a mother's or a woman's lens that she sort of brought to these subjects that are so entrenched in art history?

是的。

Yes.

你提到的这些要素都融合在一起。

And all of those things you mentioned come together.

她既是母亲，也是恪守维多利亚时代规范的女性，并且乐在其中。

So she is a mother and she is a devoted Victorian woman who conforms to the expectations of her and loves that, you know.

但她同时也是一位虔诚的基督徒。

But she's also deeply Christian.

基督教圣像、圣经故事、圣母圣婴主题都与她的信仰息息相关。

The Christian iconography, the biblical stories, the Madonna and child also relate to her own beliefs.

第三点，你提到的艺术史背景也很重要，因为她确实会讨论自己参考过的不同画作。

And then thirdly, you mentioned the history of art and that there too because she does talk about, you know, different paintings that she's referencing.

无论是拉斐尔的圣母像、天使报喜图，还是那些具体参照点——你都能从她构建的叙事、摆姿和道具中看出，她在刻意唤起某种特定的历史呈现方式，比如圣母、圣母圣婴或天使报喜的主题。

Raphael's Madonna or an Annunciation or, you know, specific points of reference that you can see in her construction of narrative and poses or props that she uses to try and evoke a particular historical representation, of a Madonna or a Madonna and child or the Annunciation.

所有这些元素都融合在一起。

So all of those things come together.

作为女性，虽然她在某些方面符合维多利亚时代对女性的期待，但事情没那么简单。

As a woman, I mean, I've said that in some senses she conforms to the expectations of Victorian woman, but nothing's that simple.

我认为这正是卡梅伦最吸引我的地方——这种复杂性。

And that's, I think, again, part of the really interesting thing about Cameron for me is this complexity.

因为一方面确实如此，但另一方面她的摄影作品对女性气质的呈现又极具颠覆性。

Because yes, you have that on the one hand, but then on the other hand, her photographs are so subversive in their representation of femininity.

这个观点已被许多重要艺术史学家（尤其是女性学者）发展了几十年。

That's an idea that many important art historians and women art historians have developed over decades.

但对我来说，关键在于：如果你认为维多利亚时代女性的价值很大程度上取决于美貌。

But for me, what it is, is if you think that the value of a woman in the Victorian times is in many ways centered around her beauty.

想想前拉斐尔派画中的模特，她们的价值就在于绝世容颜。

So if you think about the Pre Raphaelite models and uses, their value as such is about their great beauty.

卡梅伦镜头下的女性虽也极美，但她们所处的空间让角色具有了性格的复杂性和层次感。

Cameron's women's sitters have great beauty too, but they inhabit a space which allows them to have a complexity of character or a layering of character.

所以她们不只是美丽的女子。

So they're not just beautiful women.

她们还可能是女神、女英雄、神话人物或亚瑟王传奇里的公主。

They could also be goddesses or heroines or mythological figures or Arthurian princesses.

我认为她在作品中展现了一种女性特质的多元性，以及作为女性的多种可能性，这彻底打破了女性必须是被观赏的美丽物品的观念。

So she opens up in her representations, I think, a kind of multiplicity of femininity and capacity of being a woman that sort of blows out this idea of just having to be this beautiful thing to be viewed.

我们看到的是爱丽丝·利德尔作为自然女神波莫娜的非凡肖像。

They're seeing incredible portrait of Alice Liddell as Pomona, a goddess of nature.

她坚定地站立在由花朵和枝叶构成的画面中，这些植物几乎要将她覆盖，与她的发丝缠绕在一起。

And she's standing so strong within this kind of composition of flowers and foliage that are kind of covering her over and that are entwining with her hair.

然而她并未屈服于这种环境。

And yet she's not submissive to it.

她没有被环境所吞噬。

She doesn't get lost in it.

她在画面中充满力量，直视着观者的目光，手叉着腰。

She's so powerful in the frame and she's returning our gaze and she's sort of got her hand on her hip.

是的，她美得惊人，但同时也强大得不可思议。

And so she is, yes, incredibly beautiful, but she's incredibly strong.

她既是维多利亚时代被凝视的女性，又仿佛是自然中的女神形象。

And she is both, you know, Victorian woman and observed, but also kind of goddess figure in nature.

我喜爱这种由她的叙事和构图所带来的复杂表现层次。

And I love this kind of complexity of representation that her narratives and her compositions allow.

这实在太美了，想想维多利亚时代的社会背景，当时女性完全被前拉斐尔派物化。

I think that is so beautiful because if you think about what was happening in the Victorian times at that point, you know, women were completely objectified by the Pre Raphaelites.

但有点像卡梅隆同时代的画家乔安娜·博伊斯·威尔斯，她赋予了女性这种深度。

But a little bit like Joanna Boyce Wells, who is a contemporary of Cameron who's a painter, she gives that depth to women.

你会感受到这个角色背后是有血有肉的真实存在。

You feel like there is sort of flesh and blood underneath that character.

她们不只是像但丁·加布里埃尔·罗塞蒂笔下诱惑观众的莉莉丝。

They're not just Lilith seducing the viewer or in a sort of Dante Gabriel Rossetti way.

我太喜欢这种女性力量的表达了。

I I love this idea that they're strong.

没错，即便是你们称为波莫纳的艾丽丝·利德尔——我要补充说明，她正是刘易斯·卡罗尔笔下《爱丽丝梦游仙境》的原型。

And, yes, even Alice Liddell, who you say is Pomona, and Alice Liddell, I should add, was the inspiration for Lewis Carroll's Alice in Wonderland.

她已然是这种非凡的灵感化身，而那张照片确实完全属于她。

So already this kind of incredible muse, but she really owns that photograph.

那眼神令人震撼。

It's an incredible gaze.

我是说，1865年起卡梅伦开始使用更大的相机，配备约15×12英寸的玻璃底片。

I mean, in 1865, Cameron begins using a larger camera, which is held at a sort of 15 by 12 inch glass negative.

1865年后她的创作发生了怎样的转变？

How did her work shift after 1865?

她之前显然只用那台旧相机拍摄了一年。

She'd obviously just been using this other camera for a year.

新设备让她能实现哪些突破？

What did that allow her to do?

这再次印证了摄影史上技术与美学的融合——这种绝佳组合推动着发展，往往催生重大变革时刻。

So again, the technical and the aesthetic coming together in the history of photography, which is always good pairing that drives things on and these moments of radical shift often resulting from that.

正如你所说，她开始使用能装更大玻璃底片的相机。

So she starts using a camera that holds larger glass plates, as you say.

那一年她已积累了一定创作势能。

She's also got some momentum behind her in that year.

要知道，她正全力追求艺术事业。

You know, she's really pursuing her career as an artist.

她在伦敦委托了经销商销售作品。

She's engaged a dealer in London that's selling her print.

她已为摄影作品申请版权保护。

She's registered her photographs for copyright.

她还接触了VNA博物馆馆长亨利·科尔。

She's approached Henry Cole, the director of the VNA.

他给她提供了一间用作工作室的房间。

He's offered her a room that she uses as a studio.

他们购买了她的一些作品，她也获得了一台能容纳更大底片的大型相机。

They buy some of her works and she gets a larger camera that holds bigger plates.

因此她的照片尺寸变大了，因为照片尺寸与底片大小一致。

And so her prints are bigger because her prints conform to the size of her negatives.

这样她就能以更大画幅进行创作。

So she's able to work in this larger format.

她意识到自己在摄影中最感兴趣的要素之一就是对焦理念。

And she has realized that one of the things that she is really interested in in photography is the idea of focus.

她开始创作这些大型头部特写，有男性也有女性的各种头像。

She starts making these big head studies and they're these kinds of heads, both men and women.

虽然是她作品中的两个不同系列，但核心都在于对焦实验。

So two different projects in her work, but one of the key things she's doing is experimenting with focus.

这种理念让我想到基亚拉·斯库罗，那种明暗之间、深度与圆润感的游戏。

This idea, I think of Chiara Skuro, the kind of play between light and dark of depth and roundness.

她在信中提到，自己着迷于圆润感和饱满的轮廓形态，认为通过这种'刻意不对准焦点'的技术能在大型头像作品中实现这种效果。

So she's described in her letters, her interest in roundness and this fullness of feature and form that she feels that she can achieve in these larger head studies with this technique of, as she says, stopping short of definite focus.

之后她开始创作这些气势恢宏的美丽肖像，既有男性也有女性。

She then begins to, you know, make these new ambitious beautiful portraits of both men and women.

正如我们之前讨论的，女性形象常常被塑造成特定角色。

And, you know, the women are often as we've started to talk about cast as characters, you know.

当然也存在例外情况。

So there are some exceptions to that.

其中之一就是朱莉娅·杰克逊，我提到过，她是卡梅隆最喜爱的模特也是她的曾侄女。

And one of them is Julia Jackson, as I've mentioned, her great niece and favorite sitter.

但她把她们塑造成圣母形象，布置这些精心设计的亚瑟王传说场景。

But she's casting them as Madonna, setting up these elaborate tableaus of Arthurian legend.

她正在看，你知道的，达芙妮和阿波罗的故事。

She's looking at, you know, Daphne and Apollo.

她正在看库迈的文明。

She's looking at the Cumaean civil.

她正在看所有这些不同的神话与传说。

She's looking at all these different myths and legends.

然后她转向文学和诗歌，创造着这类角色。

And she turns to literature and to poetry and she is creating these sort of characters.

她使用儿童形象，并常将他们装扮成天使般的人物、超自然存在或丘比特。

She uses children and often dresses them up as kinds of angelic and otherworldly figures and cupids.

同样，你知道，她作品中许多年轻女性也是天使之类的形象。

And again, this is, you know, also many of her young women are angels and so forth.

而对于男性，她开始这种——我称之为——英雄化工程，这些伟岸的头像，这些维多利亚时代的人物，她构建的维多利亚伟人万神殿。

And then with the men she begins this kind of, I guess, lionizing project, these great heads, these Victorian figures that she kind of identifies, this pantheon of great Victorian men.

这正是当时流行的创作类型。

And that's the kind of project that was popular at that time.

你知道，这种对当代伟人的呈现，某种意义上就像肖像画廊的概念。

You know, this representation of the great men at the time, the idea of a portrait gallery in a sense.

某种程度上她也很有商业头脑，因为她想推销一位王子。

Some ways too, she's clever because she wants to sell a prince.

所以我认为这其中既有意识形态的追求，也有一种认知——她知道能让桂冠诗人丁尼生签名版画，就能畅销并获得商业成功，这也是她艺术实践的诉求。

So I think there's both a sort of ideological interest but also a kind of a knowledge or a recognition that, you know, she can, you know, get Tennyson, the poet laureate to sign the print and she'll be able to sell it and have commercial success because she sought that from her practice as well.

是啊。

Yeah.

这真有意思。

That's really interesting.

我是说，她在1867年拍摄了托马斯·卡莱尔这样的人，这位在维多利亚英格兰提出伟人论的著名学者。

I mean, you know, she photographs people like Thomas Carlyle in 1867 who famously penned the great man theory in Victorian England.

现在与她打交道时很复杂，因为你必须某种程度上遵循这些维多利亚时代的价值观。

It's a complex one when you're dealing with her now that you do have to kind of adhere to these Victorian values.

我觉得这很复杂，但我也理解这是一种精明的商业女性行为，某种程度上是与这些人建立联系。

I find it complicated, but I also understand that it was also a sort of shrewd business woman move to sort of associate yourself with these people.

我有点觉得它们并不互相排斥。

I kind of feel like they're not mutually exclusive.

我同意。

I agree.

但我觉得这在某种意义上可能相当自然。

But I feel like it was probably quite natural in a sense.

我在想这是否像那样是预谋的。

I wonder if it was as premeditated as that.

我的意思是，在《梦的肖像》中也很有趣，因为弗朗西斯卡·伍德曼并不常被认为是一个拍摄男性的摄影师。

I mean, it's interesting too in Portraits of Dreaming because Francesca Woodman is not often thought about as a photographer who took images of men.

她主要被认为是一个项目以自拍或拍摄女性及朋友为主的摄影师。

She's mostly thought of as a photographer whose project was sort of based around self portraiture or photographs of women and her friends.

但她确实经常拍摄男性。

But she did often photograph men.

关于卡梅伦的《男性》，我想到的一点是，当我看到伍德曼在她一些男性照片中探索的那种非常导演式的、模棱两可的、超现实的叙事时。

I one of the things I think with Cameron's Men is when I looked at Woodman's very directorial, ambiguous, surreal narratives that she explores in some of her photographs of men.

这让你也能在同样的空间里看待卡梅伦的《男性》，某种程度上它们都具有这种奇异感。

It allows you to look at Cameron's Men in that same space also as kind of having this strangeness.

我必须说，卡梅伦的另一件作品也是我的最爱之一，是她为赫歇尔拍摄的肖像《天文学家》。

And one work by Cameron that is also, I have to say, one of my favorites is her portrait of Herschel called The Astronomer.

她在不同时期为赫歇尔拍摄了多幅肖像，这幅采用了那种'漂浮在太空中的伟大头颅'的风格。

Now she took a number of portraits of Herschel at different times, and he is in this kind of style of the great head floating in space.

所以这幅名为《天文学家》的肖像，某种程度上在画面中营造出了更多距离感。

So this portrait called The Astronomer, it sort of got a little bit more distance in it.

他仿佛正在仰望宇宙星辰，看起来像是进入了某种出神状态。

It's as though he's looking up to the cosmos, to the stars, and he seems to be in like a trance.

这完全超脱尘世。

It's absolutely otherworldly.

这简直如梦似幻。

It's absolutely dreamlike.

这是她镜头下的伟人之一。

And this is one of her great men.

要知道，这是一位伟大的科学家。

Know, this is a great scientist.

所以我认为在那个项目中，确实存在展现这种梦幻空间的可能性，而且它并非非此即彼的明确划分。

So I also think that in that project, you know, there's capacity to see this kind of dream space and that it wasn't clear cut as one thing or another.

完全同意。

Totally.

我特别欣赏她这个理念——既要记录外在特征，也要捕捉内在的伟大。

I I love this idea that her aim was to record the greatness of the inner as well as the features of the outer man.

实际上，在当时选择'人类'这个主题是相当大胆的。

And actually, very bold to take on the subject of man at that time.

或许我们在肖像摄影中也把这点视为理所当然了。

And maybe we take that for granted for a way in portraiture too.

我们认为优秀的肖像应该具有某种内在性，即使只是某个瞬间的展现，也要揭示拍摄对象内心的某些特质。

We think a good portrait probably has some sense of interiority, reveals something of the interior of the sitar even if that's just at a particular moment in time, you know.

但要知道，这种通过肖像实现心理揭示的理念，其实是相当现代主义的观念。

But, you know, that's quite a modern a modernist idea that I think, you know, this idea of psychological revelation through portraiture.