感觉自己已经足够好

这是一档iHeart播客节目。

This is an iHeart podcast.

大家好，我是肯德拉·阿达奇。我的节目《懒人天才播客》旨在帮助你在重要的事情上成为天才，在无关紧要的事情上偷懒——由你决定什么才是重要的。我不会告诉你该做什么，而是为你提供新的视角。节目里充满富有同理心的时间管理技巧，以及允许你按自己心意行事的‘免责条’。

Hey there. I'm Kendra Adachi, and my show, the lazy genius podcast, helps you be a genius about the things that matter and lazy about the things that don't, and you get to decide what matters. I'm not here to tell you what to do. I'm here to give you a new way to see. Episodes of the lazy genius podcast are full of compassionate time management tips and permission slips to do what makes sense for you.

新节目每周一更新。你可以在免费的Odyssey应用或任何播客平台关注收听《懒人天才播客》。

New episodes drop every Monday. Follow and listen to the lazy genius podcast on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts.

普希金。

Pushkin.

新年是审视那些对你有害无益事物的好时机。如果要我选一个绝对有害的特质，那就是我的完美主义。我常常苛责自己，害怕尝试可能不擅长的事，连小失误都会让我觉得自己是个糟糕的人。所以在《如何应对》系列的下一期里，我将带来对抗这种自我批判的适时指南，我称之为《如何感到自我满足》。

The New Year is a great time to take a look at what's not serving you. And if I had to pick one trait that's definitely not been serving me, it's my perfectionism. I tend to beat myself up a lot. I'm terrified to try things that I might not be good at, and even small mess ups make me feel like I'm sort of a bad person. So in this next episode of our how to season, I'm bringing you a timely guide for fighting that kind of self criticism or what I like to call how to feel like you're enough.

这期节目的专家人选很容易确定。埃伦·亨德里克森博士是波士顿大学焦虑及相关障碍研究中心的临床心理学家。和我一样，埃伦也是正在康复的完美主义者。她还写了一本极好的书，我强烈推荐，名为《如何知足：给自我批判者与完美主义者的自我接纳指南》。

And picking an expert for this episode was easy. Doctor Ellen Hendrickson is a clinical psychologist at Boston University's Center for Anxiety and Related Disorders. Like me, Ellen is a recovering perfectionist. She's also the author of a fabulous book that I strongly recommend. It's called how to be enough, self acceptance for self critics and perfectionists.

自助书籍作者有句格言：写你需要的书。所以我写这本书部分是为了自己。但当然也有外在原因——我认为完美主义正像一场无声的流行病。我注意到‘完美主义’这个名称有些误导，它并非关于追求完美。

I mean, there's a saying for self help book authors, and that is write the book you need. So I partially wrote the book for me. But, you know, certainly, there's also an external reason I wrote the book, which is because I think there is sort of a silent epidemic of perfectionism happening. And I've noticed that perfectionism is a bit of a misnomer. It's not about striving to be perfect.

在我工作的焦虑专科诊所里，从来没有人走进来说，艾伦，我追求完美。我需要帮助。我是个完美主义者。相反，人们会说，我感觉自己总是在失败。我手头有太多事情，却什么都没做好。

No one ever comes into the anxiety specialty clinic where I work and says, Ellen, I strive for perfection. I need help. I'm a perfectionist. Instead, people come in and say, I feel like I'm always failing. I have so much on my plate, and I'm not doing anything well.

我落后了。我本应在人生中取得比现在更大的成就，或者他们只是对自己的生活有种不满的感觉。所以这不是关于追求完美，而是关于永远觉得自己不够好。

I'm falling behind. I should be so much further ahead than where I am now in life, or they just have sort of a sense of dissatisfaction with their lives. So it's not about striving for perfection. It's about never feeling good enough.

当你思考完美主义时，这是否也是你自己生活中显现的那种情况？

And was that the kind of thing that manifested in your own life when you thought about perfectionism?

当然。是的。我想，讽刺的是，在我开始写这本书之前，我精疲力竭了。我长时间地拼命工作，以至于对我来说，倦怠主要体现在身体上。所以我患上了肠胃疾病。

For sure. Yeah. I think well, so ironically, before I started writing the book, I burned out. I had been grinding for so long that for me, burnout manifested mostly physically. So I developed a GI illness.

一天早上醒来，我无法向右转头。我的肌肉紧绷到极点。因为打字太多，我的前臂也受伤了。所以我经历了大约五轮物理治疗。对我来说，主要是身体上的问题，但它绝对也会在人际关系中显现。

I woke up one morning, and I couldn't turn my head to the right. My muscles were so tight. I blew out my forearm from typing too much. So I've been through, like, five rounds of physical therapy. So for me, it was mostly physical, but it can absolutely manifest, in terms of relationships.

所以，幸运的是，我的婚姻还算稳定。但我意识到，我又一次长时间地拼命工作，抬头一看，发现已经很久没和很多朋友联系了。对其他人来说，这种不满可能更多地体现在认知或情感上，那种对生活的不满或我之前提到的那些话。但它确实让我停了下来，这显然相当普遍。大多数人随着年龄增长会变得温和。

So, you know, luckily, my marriage was fine, was okay. But I realized that I, again, had been grinding for a long time and looked up and realized I hadn't talked to a lot of my friends for a long time. For other folks, again, it can manifest more cognitively, more emotionally, that sense of dissatisfaction with their lives or all those, you know, phrases I I mentioned before. But it definitely ground me to a halt, which apparently is pretty common. For most folks, as they age, they mellow.

但对有完美主义倾向的人来说，会发生别的事情，那就是开始失控，我们变得不那么勤奋，开始精疲力竭。所以我认为这非常常见，尤其是在中年或职业生涯中期，所有这些问题会集中爆发。我在研究和写书时发现一篇论文，我会转述它的标题，但大意是说，20岁时的完美主义者，40岁时会精疲力竭。

But for people with perfectionism, something else happens, and that's the wheels start to come off, that we become less diligent and start to burn out. And so I think it's really common, especially at midlife or mid career, for all of this to come to a head. I found one paper in my research, writing the book. I'll paraphrase the title, but it essentially said perfectionist at 20, burnout at 40.

就像你在说我的心里话一样，这其实挺有趣的。我感觉自己从未被如此精准地点破过。

It's like you're speaking my language. It's actually really funny. I feel like I've never been as kind of called out

或者说从未感到如此被理解，就像我们此刻的共鸣。我们正走在相同的旅程上。

or felt as seen, like, as we did. We're on the same journey.

我很好奇你是否也有相同经历。我觉得自己对事物原本的享受方式逐渐改变了，可能是完美主义在作祟。

I mean, I'm curious if you went through the same thing. I feel like I've gone through where kind of the normal enjoyment I've had of things has sort of changed over time, like, because of my perfectionism.

你也有类似体验吗？这很令人困惑对吧？就像求职面试时那个经典问题：你最大的缺点是什么？

Is that something you experienced as well? It's it's confusing. Right? Like, it's everybody's favorite weakness in a job interview. Oh, what's your biggest weakness?

'哦，我是个完美主义者'。其实完美主义完全可以是积极健康的适应机制。虽然有些研究者不认同，但也有学者坚信存在健康的完美主义——当它源于对卓越的追求时。我们为作品本身而精益求精。

Oh, I'm such a perfectionist. And it absolutely can be good and healthy and adaptive. There are some researchers who would disagree with me on that, but there are some who would absolutely agree that there can be healthy perfectionism. And that is when it's grounded in striving for excellence. We do good work for the work's sake.

我们秉持高标准，倾注热忱，这一切都源于美好的初衷。事实上，完美主义健康的核心是一种叫'尽责性'的人格特质。

We have high standards. We care deeply. It all comes from a good place. You know? In in fact, the healthy heart of perfectionism is a personality trait called conscientiousness.

要知道这可是最不性感的超能力了——我们总能一肩扛起所有责任。但研究发现，就人格特质而言，它最能预测美好人生：无论是客观意义上的'成功'（比如收入），还是主观层面的成就（比如生活满意度），当然也包括我们正在讨论的幸福。

You know, that is the least sexy superpower. You know? Like, we fulfill our responsibilities in a single bound. But it's been found to be, in terms of personality, the biggest predictor for a good life. So it predicts objective, you know, quote unquote success like income and subjective success like life satisfaction and, you know, appropriate to our conversation, happiness.

作为一种性格特质，它确实是值得选择的。但它完全可能演变成不健康的完美主义。我认为完美主义就像那些视觉错觉图，换个角度看就会看到不同的东西，比如兔子或鸭子、年轻女子或老妇人。所以从另一个角度看，它绝对会滑向不健康的完美主义。那时我们不再追求卓越，不再为工作本身而努力，而是陷入一种称为过度评价的状态，即我们将自身与表现混为一谈。

So as far as a personality trait, it's the one to pick. But it can absolutely tip over into unhealthy perfectionism. I think of perfectionism as sort of like one of those optical illusions that if you look at it one way, you see one thing and like the bunny or the duck or the young lady or the old lady. So if you look at it a different way, it can definitely tip over into unhealthy perfectionism. And that's when instead of striving for excellence, instead of trying to do excellent work for the work's sake, we start to fall into something called overevaluation, which is when we conflate ourselves and our performance.

我们必须表现得尽善尽美才能证明自己作为人的价值。原谅我的语法，但这就是'我做得好等于我人好'的逻辑。而这正是病态完美主义的核心。

So we have to perform as superbly as possible to be sufficient as a person. Forgive my grammar, but it's when I did good equals I am good. And that's the heart of unhealthy perfectionism.

这种病态的完美主义似乎还在恶化。我们的文化某种程度上加剧了它。能谈谈现代社会中有哪些因素不仅助长完美主义，还使得过度评价变得更加隐蔽吗？

It also seems like this unhealthy perfectionism is getting worse. Our culture is kinda making it worse. Talk about some of the things that right now in the modern day can make perfectionism in general, but overvaluation as well kind of even more insidious.

哦，确实如此。说实话我很惊讶，因为我一直把完美主义视为某种人格特征。比如想到塞雷娜·威廉姆斯、史蒂夫·乔布斯、赫敏·格兰杰和奈尔·克雷恩这些典型人物。

Oh, for sure. Yeah. No. I was actually really surprised about this because I've always thought of perfectionism as sort of a personality profile. Like, I think of, you know, the Serena Williams and Steve Jobs and Hermione Granger and Nile Cranes of the world.

我曾以为这是与生俱来的特质——确实如此，它源自我们的基因。糟糕的是，它绝对源于原生家庭。但每个人都会对所处环境做出反应。当我们置身于研究员安德鲁·希尔博士所说的'完美主义气候'中时，自然会预期他人严苛对待我们，进而严苛对待自己。

I thought it was something that we were, and it is. It comes from our genetics. It's terrible. It definitely comes from our families of origin, but every human reacts to the situations we're put in. So when we're put into what the researcher doctor Andrew Hill calls a perfectionistic climate, of course, we're gonna react expecting others to be hard on us, being hard on ourselves.

我们可能也会苛责他人。助长这种心态的因素包括资本主义、消费主义、广告宣传，而社交媒体无疑是火上浇油。当身处这种不断逼迫我们提升表现和消费水平的文化中，我们自然会以完美主义回应。我们再次认为，必须做到极致才能证明自己作为人的价值。

Maybe we're hard on others. So some of the factors that feed into that are simply capitalism, consumerism, advertising, and social media definitely throws a match on that pile. And so when we are in a culture that pushes us to perform and consume to ever higher levels, of course, we're going to respond with perfectionism. We're thinking we have to, again, perform as superbly as possible to be sufficient as a person.

你还提出在这种文化背景下，或许该将完美主义视为社会问题。这个观点具体是指什么？

And you've also argued that in the context of these cultures, we might wanna think about perfectionism as a social problem. What do you mean there?

是的。我认为当我说社会问题时，我们通常把完美主义视为个人问题，但实际上它是人际问题。因为当我回到定义时，我觉得认为我们必须表现得尽可能出色才能作为一个人足够好。我们还认为必须表现得尽可能出色才能让人喜欢我们，才能成为群体的一部分，才能有所归属。

Yeah. I think when I say social problem, we usually think of perfectionism as a personal problem, and it's actually an interpersonal problem. Because when I'll I'll come back to the the definition. I think thinking we have to perform as superbly as possible to be sufficient as a person. We also think we have to perform as superbly as possible so people like us, so that we are part of a group, so that we belong.

作为人类，我们需要社群和归属感是基本需求。但完美主义对我们撒了个谎，告诉我们必须通过把事情做好来赢得这些。

It's fundamental to all of us as human beings to need community and belonging. But perfectionism tells us a lie, and that's that we have to earn our way into that by doing things well.

所以按你现在所说，完美主义看起来非常糟糕。但你的书声称有一种方法可以让我们在关注表现的同时避免所有负面影响。什么是适应性完美主义？

So as you talk about it now, perfectionism seems really bad. But your book claims that there's a way that we can be conscientious about our performance without all the dark sides. What is adaptive perfectionism?

是的。适应性完美主义是我们追求卓越的时候。我们为工作本身而工作。我们保持高标准。我认为不完美主义正在时代精神和文化中占有一席之地。

Yeah. Adaptive perfectionism is when we strive for excellence. We do the work for the work's sake. We keep our high standards. I think that imperfection is having a moment in the zeitgeist and in the culture.

这很棒。非常了不起。然而，我认为由此产生的一些建议有点误导。所以我确实被告诉过，艾伦，你需要在事情足够好时停下来，或者你需要降低标准。这对我和任何熟悉完美主义的人来说，就像让我们拔掉脚趾甲一样难以接受。

And that's awesome. That's amazing. However, I think that some of the advice that has come out of that is a little bit misguided. So I have definitely been told, Ellen, you need to stop when things are good enough, or you need to lower your standards. And that goes off with me and with anyone else who's familiar with perfectionism about as well as telling us to pull out our toenails.

因为如果我们过度认同我们的工作或表现，我们可以过度认同任何事物，比如镜子中的倒影、体重秤上的数字、我们是否坚持了当天的健康饮食计划、我们的社交行为、我们的育儿方式。但如果我们过度认同某件事，告诉我们要满足于平庸或低于标准的表现，就是在告诉我们我们是平庸或低于标准的。所以我喜欢做的是尝试与客户合作，当然也在自己内部，不要过多地将我的表现评估为全有或全无，这绝对是我们在完美主义中做的事情之一。而是尝试将其评估为两者兼具。我会讲个故事来说明。

Because if we are sort of overidentified with our work or our performance, we can overidentify with anything, with our reflection in the mirror, the number on the scale, you know, whether we stuck to our healthy eating plan that day, our social behavior, our parenting. But if this is something that we're sort of overidentified with, telling us to settle for mediocre or subpar performance tells us that we're mediocre or subpar. So what I like to do is to try to work with clients and certainly within myself to not evaluate my performance so much as all or nothing, which is definitely one of the things that we do in perfectionism. But instead, try to evaluate it as both and. I'll tell you a story to illustrate.

所以我有一个客户，我们叫她朱莉。她是一名儿科医生，根据所有报告，她非常优秀。她已经做了二十五年。有一天，她来参加咨询，狠狠地责备自己，因为那周她误诊了一个病人。一个小女孩因腹痛来就诊，朱莉让家人回家说是便秘，结果却是阑尾炎。

So I had a client that we'll call Julie. She was a pediatrician and was a very good one by all reports. She'd been doing this for twenty five years. One day, she came into session and was just, like, lambasting herself because she had misdiagnosed a patient that week. So a little girl had come in with abdominal pain, and Julie had sent the family home saying it was constipation, turned out to be appendicitis.

小女孩最终去了急诊室。她没事，但朱莉来参加诊疗时说了一些话，比如，我是个糟糕的医生。也许我现在应该退休，在伤害别人之前离开。她对自己非常、非常苛刻。她的做法是，当我们以非黑即白的方式评价自己时，一个错误就会让我们从‘我是个好医生’跌入‘我一无是处’的深渊。

The little girl ended up going to the emergency room. She was fine, but Julie came into session and was saying things like, I am a bad doctor. Maybe I should retire now and get out before I hurt someone. She was really, really hard on herself. And what she was doing is when we evaluate ourselves as all or nothing, one mistake shunts us from all, I'm a good doctor, to nothing.

我是个差劲的医生。因此，我们尝试让她不再将‘合格’的标准设定为完美无缺——零失误、永远无误诊。如果你偶尔绊倒、挣扎或犯错，这不会让你变得一无是处，而是应该想：我是个有时会误诊的好医生。我们可以在生活的任何领域这样做：我是个有时考试不及格的好学生。

I'm a bad doctor. And so what we tried to do was rather than have her set the bar for adequate at flawless, no mistakes, no misdiagnoses ever. And if you ever stumble or struggle or make a mistake, that shunts us into nothing to think about it as I'm a good doctor who sometimes makes a misdiagnosis. And we can do this in any area of life. I'm a good student who sometimes fails a test.

我是个有时会放弃的勤奋之人；我是个偶尔会吃掉一整罐棉花糖酱的健康人士。我们可以这样看待自己，既保留对自己作为好人的认知，也为生活中不可避免的错误和过失留出亟需的缓冲空间——因为我们是凡人。

I am a diligent person who sometimes throws in the towel. I'm a healthy person who sometimes eats a jar of marshmallow fluff. We can do this and retain our sense of ourselves as good people and create some much needed wiggle room for the inevitable mistakes and doers of life because we are human.

如果你听过本系列的第一期节目，就知道这一季全是关于寻找处理生活问题的实用技巧。所以广告回来后，我们将听到艾伦驯服完美主义倾向的第一个妙招。《幸福实验室》马上回来。良好的沟通对生活至关重要，无论是个人还是职业层面。而我朋友马特·亚伯拉罕的播客《快速思考，聪明说话》能帮你在这方面做得更好。

If you listen to the first episode in this how to series, you know this season is all about finding practical tips for handling life's problems. So when we get back from the break, we'll hear Ellen's first hack for taming our perfectionist tendencies. The Happiness Lab will be right back. Good communication is essential in life, both personally and professionally. And my friend, Matt Abraham's podcast, think fast, talk smart, can help you do better with that.

每周，马特都会与包括我在内的专家对谈，分享基于研究的实用技巧，帮助你学习如何深入对话、成为更好的倾听者，以及如何在冲突中清晰沟通。本月，《快速思考，聪明说话》推出与科技工具创造者的迷你系列，探讨如何用他们的工具改善职业沟通与生活。如果你想提升沟通能力，每周二在任意播客平台收听，并在fastersmarter.io获取更多提升内容。艾伦·亨德里克森医生帮助了许多前来诊所的完美主义挣扎者，但她也在治愈自己。作为一位正在康复的完美主义者，艾伦发现对抗自我批评的第一步，是审视内心苛刻的独白。

Each week, Matt sits down with experts, including me, to share practical research backed tips to help you learn things like how to connect deeply in conversation, how to be a better listener, and how to communicate clearly through conflict. And this month, think fast, talk smart features a mini series with tech tool creators on how to use their tools to improve your professional communication and your life. So if you're ready to level up your communication game, listen every Tuesday wherever you get podcasts and find additional content to level up your communication at fastersmarter.io. Doctor Ellen Hendrickson supports a whole host of struggling perfectionists who visit her clinic, but she's also working to heal herself. As a recovering perfectionist, Ellen has found that the first step to fighting self criticism is to examine her harsh inner monologue.

我们专注于瑕疵和细节。因此，我们是那些会注意到干净台面上别人看不见的面包屑的人。我们扫视观众，在笑容的海洋中找到那个皱眉的面孔，然后自我批评。你看，如果我们寻找瑕疵，就一定能找到。所以如果我们寻找错误或缺陷，并因过度重视而将其个人化，自我批评就会表现为严厉且针对个人的攻击。

We focus on flaws and details. So we are the ones to see the crumbs on the otherwise clean counter that nobody else sees. We scan the audience, and we find the one frowning face in the sea of smiles, then we self criticize. You know, if we look for it, we'll find it. So if we if we look for the mistake or we look for the flaw and we take that really personally because of overvaluation, then the self criticism manifests as harsh and personal.

这可能表现为辱骂式语言，比如‘哦，我真是个白痴’‘我怎么这么蠢’；也可能是反问句：‘为什么我就做不到？天哪。’

So it could be over at name calling, like, oh, I'm such an idiot. Oh, how could I be so stupid? It could be rhetorical questions. Why can't I do this? Oh my gosh.

为什么我会那样说？或者甚至根本算不上有意识的言语。可能只是那种对生活不满或总觉得不对劲的潜在低鸣。尖锐而个人化。

Why did I say it that way? Or it could not even really be conscious words at all. It could just be sort of this underlying rumbling of dissatisfaction or never feeling right about our lives. Harsh and personal.

那我们为何如此自我批判？看起来我们并非极度受虐狂。似乎我们有种理论认为这方法有效。

So why are we so self critical? It seems like we're not, like, terribly masochistic. It seems like we have this theory that it seems to work.

没错。完全正确。我们自我批判有无数理由，归根结底是认为它有效。我们觉得若严厉批评自己，或许就不会再犯同样错误。

Yeah. Absolutely. So we can be self critical for lots and lots of reasons. It all boils down to we think it works. We think that if we criticize ourselves harshly, that we might never make that mistake again.

或者抢在他人之前批评自己。记住，完美主义是人际关系的。讽刺的是，我们自我批判可能是为了无可指摘。书中有位中国跑者陈叔叔，几年前因边跑马拉松边连续吸烟走红网络。

Or we might criticize ourselves before others can. Remember, perfectionism is interpersonal. So ironically, we might criticize ourselves to be beyond reproach. And in the book, there's a runner in China who goes by the name of uncle Chen. And he went viral a few years ago for running a series of marathons while chain smoking.

他说嘴里叼着东西帮助呼吸并提供能量。这可能是真的——他成绩确实不错，能跑进三小时三十分的马拉松。但我敢打赌，香烟窃取了他良好表现、刻苦训练应得的赞誉。自我批判同样如此，它窃取了我们设定高标准、关怀他人、勤奋认真等所有优点的功劳。

And he says that having something in his mouth helps him breathe and that it gives him energy. So that might be true. He he does pretty well too. Like, he might run sub three thirty marathons because he's chain smoking, but I would hazard to guess that the cigarettes are stealing the credit for his good performance, his hard work, his training. And I think the same thing happens with self criticism, that it steals the credit for everything else we do so well, setting those high standards, caring deeply about people being diligent.

当我们考虑放弃或接纳这种批判时，会引发强烈情绪，因为担心失去它后会发生什么——它已窃取了这份功劳。

And that it brings up a lot of emotion when we think about letting it go or letting it be because we worry what will happen without it. It's taken that credit.

但数据究竟说明了什么？我们需要自我批判才能表现出色吗？

But what does the data really show? Do we need that self criticism to do well?

讽刺的是，这表明没有它我们反而做得更好。比如，健康锻炼与完美主义锻炼之间的区别在于后者可能让我们变得有些强迫，即使筋疲力尽或受伤也要坚持。这两者的关键差异正是自我批评。因此，它实际上再次成为窃取功劳、讽刺性地降低我们表现的因素，而非让我们发挥全部潜力。

Well, so ironically, it shows that we do better without it. The difference between, for example, like healthy exercise and perfectionistic exercise where we get a little obsessive, might exercise even if we're exhausted or injured. The difference between those two things is self criticism. So it really is the thing, again, that steals the credit and ironically lowers our performance as opposed to letting us reach our full potential.

所以这是第一条建议：我们需要找到停止自我批评的方法。

So that's tip number one. We need to figure out ways to quit the self criticism.

但具体怎么做呢？我有两个建议。首先，我学会了用自我关怀的方式与自己对话，就像对待好朋友那样。

But how do we do that? I have two tips for you. Okay. I learned to exercise self compassion to talk to myself like a good friend. Okay.

这对许多人可能绝对有效。但对于完美主义大脑而言，这意味着我们觉得自己必须组织出完整有效的自我关怀段落，像自我关怀演讲稿撰写人那样对自己说话。这显然是个高门槛——我自己都做不到。所以对受完美主义困扰的人，我想说：自我关怀当然可以是言语，但也可以是更简单的词句。

Which absolutely might work for a lot of people. But I think for a perfectionistic brain, that means we think we have to come up with fully formed, effective paragraphs of, like, self compassionate hype and talk to ourselves like a self compassion speech writer. And, certainly, that's a high bar. You know, I I can't do that. And so for folks that resonate with perfectionism, I'd like to say that, yes, self compassion can definitely be words, but it can also be much simpler words.

它可以是一个词，比如“放松”或“没关系”或“善意”。但更重要的是，因为本质上自我对话是思维活动，而我们无法控制思维。就像现在，别去想我头顶漂浮的芝士汉堡——你明白的，我们控制不了想法。

It could be one word, like easy or it's okay or kindness. But more than that, I think because those fundamentally talking to ourselves is thoughts. Right? And we can't control our thoughts. So for example, like, don't think about a cheeseburger floating above my head.

但我们能控制的是行动。所以即使内心在自我批判，我们仍可以自我关怀地对待自己。这可能意味着允许自己早晨慢慢喝咖啡，或是在寒冷清晨多花几分钟享受热水淋浴。

You know, we can't control our thoughts. But what we can control is our actions. So even if we're talking to ourselves in a self critical way, we can treat ourselves in a self compassionate way. That might mean giving ourselves time to drink our coffee in the morning. It could be taking a few extra minutes to stand under the warm spray of the shower on a cold morning.

也可能是去健身房，因为经验告诉我们这能让自己感觉更好。但同样重要的是——有时选择不去健身房，因为此刻这不是我们需要的，否则只会更疲惫或让日程更紧张。对完美主义者而言，最大的自我关怀或许是允许自己不做所有预期中的事。而要做到这点，我们其实无需改变任何现状。

It could be going to the gym because we know from experience that that makes us feel better. Or and I think this is really important. It might mean skipping the gym because that's not what we need right now, and that would make us either more exhausted or crunch our schedule even more. For folks with some perfectionism, I think the biggest self compassionate act can be giving ourselves permission not to do all that we expect of ourselves. And there, we don't have to change anything.

对吧？这很美。是的。我们可以稍微减轻一些心理负担，

Right? It's beautiful. Yeah. We could just kind of take some stuff off our mental plate,

不是我们实际的盘子。没错。字面意义上的盘子。

not our actual Exactly. Legitimate plate.

对。你还推荐了其他策略，可以帮助我们处理这些令人不快的想法。你在书中提到的一个我很喜欢的概念是认知解离。那是什么？以及我们可以使用哪些策略

Right. You also recommended other strategies that can kind of help us move these kind of nasty thoughts around. And one of the ones you suggest in the book that I love is this idea of cognitive diffusion. What is that? And and and what are some strategies we can use

是的。我非常喜欢认知解离。这个概念来源于一种名为接纳与承诺疗法（ACT）的治疗取向，由史蒂夫·海斯博士及其同事在八十年代提出。简而言之，传统的认知行为疗法告诉我们要改变想法和行为来影响感受。

to Yeah. No. I love cognitive diffusion. So this comes from an orientation of therapy called acceptance and commitment therapy or ACT, and this was developed by Steve Hay doctor Steve Hayes back in the eighties and and colleagues. And in a nutshell, traditional cognitive behavioral therapy tells us to change our thoughts and our actions in order to affect how we feel.

而ACT则告诉我们要改变与想法和情绪的关系，从而推动我们采取基于价值观的行动。举个例子，认知解离就是在我们和想法之间创造一些空间，意识到‘哦，这只是个想法’，它来自我的大脑，并非事实。

ACT tells us to change our relationship to our thoughts and emotions that allows us to move forward into values based action. Okay. So an example of cognitive defusions is simply putting some space between us and our thought and realizing, oh, this is a thought. This is something that is coming from, you know, my my own mind. It is not truth.

它也不会成为现实。作为认真负责的人，我们往往过于严肃地对待事物，包括自己的想法和情绪。比如当我们想‘天啊，那太蠢了’时，通常会非常认真地对待这个念头。认知解离能削弱这种想法的力量，让我们保持距离以更客观的视角看待它们。

It is not what's going to happen. And so, you know, as conscientious people, we take things quite seriously, and that includes our own thoughts and emotions. So, you know, if we think like, oh my gosh, that was so stupid. We often take that thought really seriously. And so cognitive diffusion defuses that power, and it gives us some space and some perspective to look at our thoughts with some distance.

要做到这点，我们可以‘玩弄’这些想法。通常自我批判的念头会突然袭来，让我们措手不及，处于被动。我们不必消除这些想法，而是可以改变和戏弄它们。例如，我有个客户的念头是‘我会让所有人失望’。

Okay. And to do that, we can play with the thoughts. So often, our self critical thoughts kind of just, like, come at us and, you know, smack us out of nowhere, and that puts us in a very low power position. So what we can do is without making the thoughts go away, we can change them and play with them. So for instance, I had a client whose thought was, I'm gonna let everyone down.

于是她决定用咖啡杯具象化这个念头来与之嬉戏。每当想到这个念头时，她就会象征性地从杯子里啜饮一口。她还会在洗碗或独处时哼唱这个念头。我们可以想象思绪如飞机尾烟般划过天际，或是用《星球大战》片头字幕的字体呈现——你知道的，就是那种滚动效果。

And she decided to play with this thought by picturing it on a coffee mug. And she would metaphorically take a little sip from this mug whenever she thought that thought. She would also sing it to herself, like, while she was washing dishes or, you know, otherwise alone. We can picture our thoughts skywritten behind a plane. We can picture it as the Star Wars font, you know, like doing the the crawl.

没错。正是如此。所以我们的念头可以是文字。我们可以把它想象成绣在抱枕上的图案，诸如此类。

Yes. Exactly. Exactly. And so our thoughts could be words. So we can, you know, we could picture it embroidered on a pillow, etcetera.

但我们的念头也可能是脑海中的电影或画面。比如老板冲进办公室开除我们的画面。这时我们同样可以玩味这个念头——给老板画上小丑红鼻子，配上七十年代背景音乐。

But our thoughts also might be like a movie in our mind or an image. It could be an image of our boss barging into our office and firing us. And what we can do there is we can we can also play with that thought. We could put a clown nose on our boss. We could add a seventies soundtrack.

还可以想象天花板飘下气球。念头本身并未消失，它依然存在，但我们现在通过施加影响力来强调：这只是个念头，并非当下真实发生的境况。

We could have balloons come down from the ceiling. The thought itself doesn't go away. It's still there, But we are now exerting some power over it to emphasize that this is a thought. It's not actually what's happening to us right now.

我特别钟爱这个策略，因为在某些认知行为疗法圈子里总说'控制你的念头就行'。但我的念头特别顽固——不知道别人怎样——所以这种'允许念头存在但把它变得滑稽可笑'的理念，能有效帮助我意识到：这些念头对我的掌控力其实没想象中那么强。

I love this strategy so much because sometimes in, you know, these CBT circles where it's like, well, just control your thoughts. Like, my thoughts thoughts are really strong. I don't know about other people's thoughts, but mine so the idea of, like, you allow the thought, but you just make it a little kooky looking, a little stupid. It can be a really powerful strategy for recognizing, like, oh, these things don't have as much hold over me as I thought.

对，完全正确。好吧，我再讲个故事。当年我宣传第一本书时，有幸上了另一个全国性播客节目。我坐火车去纽约录音棚，过程中犯了些合理范围内的错误，比如有几处表达不够到位。

Right. Absolutely. Okay. Here, I'll tell you another story. So when I was promoting my first book, I was lucky enough to be on another, you know, national podcast, took the train down to New York, recorded in a studio, and made a reasonable number of mistakes, like, said a few things.

我当时觉得'这话没表达出本意'。但我的大脑——毕竟是我的大脑嘛——事后就开始喋喋不休。要知道，心脏天生就会跳动，汗腺天生就会分泌，而自我批判的大脑注定会产生自我批判的念头。

I was like, oh, that didn't come off the way I wanted it to. But my brain, because it's my brain, afterwards, you know, started going. Like, my you know, our our hearts are designed to beat. Our sweat glands are designed to perspire. A self critical brain is gonna make self critical thoughts.

于是它就这样开始了，它说，呃。你为什么要那样说？你错过了那个机会。这不太好。好吧。

And so it just started up, and it said, ugh. Why did you say it that way? You missed that opportunity. This was not good. Okay.

当时，我真的深信不疑，以至于陪我来的可怜编辑不得不把我拉进最近的酒吧，给我买了一杯金汤力。但从那以后，我明白了，这就是我的大脑对着麦克风做完任何事后会发生的事。所以，老实说，等我离开这里录完音，你知道的，我们一起的时候，我的大脑可能也会这样。它会说，哦，我完全忘了那一点。那太蠢了。

At the time, I really believed it to the point where my poor editor who came with me had to steer me into the nearest bar and buy me a gin and tonic. But since then, I have learned that that's just what happens after my brain does anything with a microphone. And so, honestly, after I leave here recording, you know, us together, probably my brain will do the same thing. It'll say, oh, I totally forgot that point. That was so dumb.

或者，哦天哪。我为什么要那样表达？这不太好。但谢天谢地，我学会了可以像对待咖啡店的背景音乐或超市里的轻音乐一样对待这些想法。它们还在那里。

Or, oh my goodness. Why did I phrase it that way? This was not good. But thankfully, I've learned that I can attend to my thoughts sort of like I would attend to the music at a coffee shop or like the Musac at a grocery store. It's still there.

我能听到它们在背景中，但我不必听进去。就像我不会跟着跳舞一样。所以，它们存在，但不是真相。这只是会发生的事。只是我的大脑就是这样运作的。

I can hear it in the background, but I don't have to listen to it. Like, I'm not dancing along. So, again, it's there, but it's not the truth. It's just what happens. It's just how my brain is wired.

当然，这就是会发生的事，但我没必要让它牵着我的鼻子走。

And, of course, that's what's gonna happen, but I don't have to let it yank me around.

也许比事后喝金汤力更安全也更省钱。对吧？绝对是。所以这是第一个建议。我们需要对抗自我批评的声音，或者以更古怪的方式接纳它们。

Maybe safer and cheaper than the gin and tonics afterwards. Right? Definitely. So that's tip number one. We need to fight our self critical voices or allow them in kookier ways.

第二个建议更难做到，尤其对我而言。我们需要找到克服过度评价的方法，之前我们稍微讨论过，这种‘我即我所为’的观念。这也是你一直在挣扎的问题。谈谈你自己过度评价的一些例子吧。

Tip number two is one that's harder, especially for me. We need to find ways to overcome overevaluation, which we talked about a little bit before, this idea that I am what I do. And this is something that you've struggled with as well. Talk about some examples of your own overevaluation.

当然。是的。我是说，我写了一整本关于我自己社交焦虑的书。那就是过度评估我的社交表现，如果我没有做对事情或者说错话，我会把它个人化。所以社交焦虑的核心就是完美主义。

Sure. Yeah. I mean, I wrote a whole book about my own social anxiety. And so that is overevaluating my social performance, that if I didn't do things correctly or if I said something wrong, I would take that personally. So the heart of social anxiety is perfectionism.

是的。对我来说，我的过度评估实际上出现在任何我遇到的情况中。我会基于我的播客表现、财务状况、作为一个好妻子、一个好老师来过度评估。它几乎出现在所有这些领域。所以我最大的问题是，我们如何对抗这种情况？

Yeah. I feel like for me, my overevaluation is honestly in whatever situation I find myself in. I overevaluate based on my podcast performance, based on what my finances look like, based on being a good wife, based on being a good teacher. It just, like, comes up in all these domains. And so my big question is, how do we fight this?

这是个价值六万四千美元的问题。我们这些有完美主义倾向的人通常倾向于遵循规则。而不确定性会引发焦虑。规则减少了不确定性。因此，规则减少了焦虑。

That is the $64,000 question. Those of us with perfectionism often orient towards rules. And uncertainty drives anxiety. Rules reduce uncertainty. Therefore, rules reduce anxiety.

在过度评估的情况下，如果我们做对了事情，那么我们就正确了。所以我们这些有点完美主义的人倾向于遵循规则。我们会大致了解情况，试图弄清楚规则是什么，以便我能遵循它们。或者如果没有规则，我们会自己制定规则，然后遵循这些规则。所以，如果你曾经为自己制定过锻炼计划，或者不得不处理一个大项目，并且写下了一些时间表，这并不是坏事。

And with over evaluation, if we are doing things correctly, therefore, we are correct. So those of us with some perfectionism orient towards rules. We we kinda get the lay of the land and try to figure out what are the rules so I can follow them. Or if there are no rules, we make up our own rules, and then we follow those. So, you know, if you've ever kind of created an exercise program for yourself or you've had to tackle a big project and you've written out some kind of schedule, and that's not bad.

请继续这样做。这绝对非常有用。但我认为问题出现在当我们非常严格地坚持这些规则，或者当我们盲目地遵循某些规则时，这些规则可能是别人对正确事情的通用想法。

Please keep doing that. That absolutely is very useful. But I think the problem arises when we stick to those rules very rigidly or when we follow rules sort of mindlessly that we are following sort of someone else's generic idea of the right thing.

或者是我们自己发明的某些可能对也可能不对的事情。我觉得我经常这样做。对吧？比如我刚被邀请参加朋友的晚宴。然后我就想，我应该带点什么。

Or some other thing that we've invented that may or may not be the right thing. I feel like I do this all the time. Right? I was just I just get invited to a friend's dinner party. And, you know, I'm thinking like, I should bring something.

但在我的脑海里，这不仅仅是带一瓶酒那么简单。而是，我应该做一个派。而且我应该用新鲜的蓝莓做派。哦天哪，我不能就用商店买的派皮，我得自己做。

But in my head, it turns not just into I should bring a bottle of wine. It's like, well, I should make a pie. And I should make a pie with fresh blueberries. And, oh my gosh, I can't just, like, get a store bought pie crust. I need to make it.

这就像是，等等。哪条规定说必须用这种极其繁复的方式准备晚餐？根本没有这样的宴会规则。但我的大脑却固执地认为，只有当我费尽周折做出超乎寻常的甜点，才能证明自己是个合格的朋友和宴会客人。

And it's like, wait. Where did this rule there's no, like, dinner party rule that says I have to put all this work in to do it in this incredibly onerous way. But somehow my brain latches onto this that, like, status as a friend and a dinner party guest kind of won't be evaluated positively unless I, like, go really out of my

确实如此。没错。听着你讲述时，我不停地点头赞同。

way to do this incredibly over the top dessert. For sure. Yeah. No. As you were talking, I was nodding and nodding and nodding.

我认为这是因为我们为自己设定了严苛的标准，这是衡量自我的一种方式。如果我们能正确完成困难的事，尤其是那些对我们自身的考验，就意味着我们足够优秀。所以我们应该尝试从单纯遵循规则转向遵循价值观。而'价值观'这个词如今既包罗万象又空洞无物。

And I think that's because we set personally demanding rules and standards for ourselves because it's a way to measure ourselves. So if we are doing hard things correctly, especially, like, that's a referendum on us. That means that we, you know, are good enough, essentially. So what we can do there is try to turn from simply following the rules to following our values. And I think values is another one of those words that sort of means everything and nothing at the same time these days.

让我来定义一下：价值观就是我们认为重要、有意义、有目的的任何事物。它可以是平等或勤奋这样的概念，也可以是书籍或戏剧这样的具体事物。

So I'll just define that. So a value is anything that we find important, meaningful, purposeful. It can really be anything. It can be a concept like equality or hard work. It can be things like books or the theater.

可以是跑步、户外活动等行为，与子女建立联结、成为有爱心的伴侣等人际关系，或是宗教信仰等实践。任何事物都可以成为价值观。根据迈克尔·图希格博士和克拉丽莎·翁博士的研究，价值观有四个重要特质。

It can be activities like running, being outdoors, relationships like connecting with your kids, being a loving partner, practices like your faith. So literally anything can be a value. Okay. And there are four qualities that are particularly important. This is the work of doctor Michael Tuhig and doctor Clarissa Ong.

他们说价值观具有持续性——你永远无法完全实现某个价值观。这与目标不同，目标可以被勾选完成。比如'来波士顿'是个目标，而'向东行'则是价值观——你可以永远朝更东方前进。

And so they say that values are continuous. So you're never done living a value. So they're different than goals because a goal can be checked off on a list. So for instance, like, coming to Boston is a goal, whereas going east is a value. You can always go more east.

你永远可以践行价值观，这是第一点。第二，价值观具有内在意义——即使无人知晓你仍会在意。所以'成名'就不是价值观。

You can always live your values. That's one. Two, values are intrinsically meaningful. So you'd care about it even if nobody else knew. So, like, getting famous isn't a value.

你的价值观由你自己掌控。因此它们不依赖于他人，比如被尊重或被爱。你可以重视尊重他人，这是你能控制的。或者选择去爱，但不以他人的回应为条件。

Your values are under your control. So they're not contingent upon anyone else, like being respected or being loved. You can value being respectful. You can control that. Or being loving, but not contingent upon other people.

最后第四点，也是我认为最重要的，你的价值观是自由选择的。价值观从不是强制或义务性的。你自由选择遵循它们，并愿意为此忍受一些不适。比如，若环保是你的价值观，你甘愿牺牲周六早上去海滩捡垃圾。这长篇大论无非是说：我们可以从‘我遵守规则了吗’转向‘我是否活成了自己想成为的人’？

And then finally, fourth, your values, and this is the most important, I think, are freely chosen. So values are never coercive or obligatory. So you freely choose to follow them, you know, and you're likely willing to tolerate some discomfort in order to do so. You're willing to sacrifice your Saturday morning to go pick up trash on the beach, you know, if, like, sustainability or the environment is your value. So that's a very long way of saying we can start to turn away from, did I follow the rule to, am I being the person I want to be?

我是否通过践行价值观过上了想要的生活？这道理简单，实践却不易。尤其在完美主义中，我们常把价值观当作规则执行。例如，有位客户说：‘上帝和我母亲教导我要慷慨。’但对她而言，这已变成一条铁律。

Am I living the life I want to live by following our values? Now that's simple, but not easy. And we often, especially in perfectionism, start to try to follow our values as rules. So for example, I had a client who said, quote, through a combination of God and my mother, I was taught to be generous. But for her, it was functioning as a rule.

她说若流浪汉讨要一美元，或有人请她临时照看孩子，她就必须答应——这完全违背了慷慨的本意。这成了强制规则，而非自由选择的价值观。

She said if a homeless person asked you for a dollar, if somebody asked you to babysit, you had to do it, which is the exact opposite of the spirit of generosity. It was functioning as a rule as opposed to a freely chosen value. One of

书中提到的策略之一就是觉察这种区别，就像晚宴那件事给我的感受。我当时意识到‘这开始变成不得不做的事’，这就是个信号——或许我该放松些。

the strategies that came up in the book is just, like, maybe even just noticing that distinction of like, this feels really, like and that's kind of with the dinner party situation. I kinda had that where I was like, this is starting to feel like a have to, and that's already a signal that maybe I should ease up.

没错。第一步就是觉察到被强迫或义务感。比如你说‘我必须’或‘我应该’烤个派，还‘必须从头开始做’。

Yeah. So I think the first step is simply noticing that we feel coerced or obliged. You mentioned that I have to or I should, you know, make a pie. Now I should make it from scratch. Yeah.

这实在太常见了。当你能主动追求有意义、有价值的事时，体验的质感就会改变——它会开始显得是自由选择的。你可能仍会亲手做派，但感受将截然不同。举个客户的例子：他是大学生，从小到大都被夸聪明。

That's absolutely really common. And I think the quality of the experience starts to shift if it is something that, again, you can run towards what is meaningful, valued, important to you, and it will start to feel freely chosen. You might still make the pie from scratch, but it's gonna feel different. Here, I'll tell you a story about a client I had, and he was a college student. And all his life had been told that he was smart.

这个标签对他非常重要，但也带来了许多规则。他说，如果我聪明，就需要长时间学习。比如，考试前要学习大约三小时。我必须基本背下学习指南，以免提出听起来愚蠢的问题。我不能问任何会让我显得愚蠢的问题。

This label was very important to him, but it also created a lot of rules. He said, if I'm smart, then I need to study for a long time. Like, I need to study for, like, I don't know, like three hours before an exam. I need to basically memorize the study guide so that I don't ask any questions that sound stupid. I can't ask, you know, any questions that make me look foolish.

但这实际上源于一种‘我必须、我应该’的强迫感。这让他非常苦恼。这些规则让人不堪重负。有趣的是，当他转向价值观驱动时，在数学课上决定追求‘学习’这一价值。

But it was really driven by this sense of, okay. Now I have to, I must, I should. And it was quite distressing to him. Like, these are overwhelming rules to try to fulfill. So what I found interesting was that as he moved towards values and for his math class, decided to try to run towards the value of learning.

他想要真正理解知识。表面上，他的行为没有变化——仍然学习三小时，但动机变成了‘我想掌握这些内容’，是‘我主动选择’而非‘我必须做，否则会失去聪明标签’在驱动他。

Like, he wanted to learn the material. And there, on the surface, he didn't actually do anything different. He still studied for a long time. He still studied for about three hours, but it was because he wanted to understand. He wanted to master this material, and he was really driven by I want or, like, I freely choose this as opposed to I have to or else I'm gonna lose the label of smart.

所以，虽然你仍在做馅饼，但体验质量会改变。当你奔向有意义的事物时，那种感觉是截然不同的。

So, again, you might still make the pie, but that the quality of that experience is going to shift. You can tell when you're running towards something that you find purposeful and meaningful.

艾伦提出了些实用建议，我打算用来对抗自我批判。但如何应对完美主义最糟糕的症状——它连最快乐的事都变得索然无味？如何不让生活美好事物变成负担？广告后艾伦将揭晓答案。良好沟通对生活和工作都至关重要。

So far, Ellen set out some pretty useful tips, ones that I certainly plan to use to fight my own self criticism. But how can we tackle what I've always thought is the worst symptom of perfectionism, that it drains the fun out of even the most enjoyable activities? How can I stop the good stuff in life from feeling like a chore? Well, Ellen will have the answers after the break. Good communication is essential in life, both personally and professionally.

我朋友马特·亚伯拉罕的播客《快思慢讲》能帮你提升。每周马特会与专家（包括我）分享实证沟通技巧：如何深度对话、成为更好倾听者、在冲突中清晰表达。本月节目推出科技工具特辑，教你用工具提升职场沟通与生活质量。每周二订阅收听，更多内容请访问fastersmarter.io。

And my friend, Matt Abraham's podcast, think fast, talk smart, can help you do better with that. Each week, Matt sits down with experts, including me, to share practical research backed tips to help you learn things like how to connect deeply in conversation, how to be a better listener, and how to communicate clearly through conflict. And this month, think fast, talk smart features a mini series with tech tool creators on how to use their tools to improve your professional communication and your life. So if you're ready to level up your communication game, listen every Tuesday wherever you get podcasts and find additional content to level up your communication at fastersmarter.io. What are some activities you find fun?

你觉得什么活动有趣？野餐？朋友游戏之夜？做手工？这些本该带来快乐。但如果你是像我这样的完美主义者，这些事会变成能力测试：手工配色完美吗？野餐地点选对了吗？

Going on a picnic maybe or having friends over for a game night or working on your favorite craft project. On the face of it, these should be enjoyable activities, ones that give us a sense of joy. But if you have a perfectionist streak like me, you may turn these events into tests of your competence. Did I choose the best color for that craft project? Did I pick the right spot for that picnic?

我的游戏之夜客人们会喜欢我准备的零食吗？他们会期待椒盐卷饼和薯片吗？蘸酱又该如何？完美主义者总想超越极限，这意味着简单的野餐永远不会只是简单的野餐。它必须完美无缺，赢得赞赏。

Will my game night guests like the snacks I got? Will they expect pretzels and chips? What about the dips? Perfectionists always wanna go above and beyond, which means a simple picnic is never just a simple picnic. It has to be perfect and win admiration.

一个高不可攀的标准不仅需要付出努力，还会滋生持续的焦虑。它把本该是乐趣的事情变成了苦差事。埃伦·亨德里克森博士指出，这正是需求敏感性的问题所在。

A standard that impossibly high doesn't just take work. It breeds constant worry. It turns what's supposed to be fun into a chore. And this, doctor Ellen Hendriksen says, is the problem of demand sensitivity.

所以需求敏感性正是如此。它是对感知到的请求或要求的高度敏感。我们倾向于关注生活中的'应该'和我们应该做的事情。但问题是，我们把'想要'变成了'应该'。明白吗？

So demand sensitivity is exactly that. It's a heightened sensitivity to, like, perceived requests or demands. We orient to the shoulds of life and what we should be doing. So what happens though is that we turn wants into shoulds. Okay.

以我为例，我在笔记本电脑上保存了一个想读的书和想看的电影的动态清单。但一旦它成为清单的一部分，而我的生活已经充满了各种清单和必须完成的事项。所以当坐下来打开Netflix，或是图书馆的书到了，书店的书送达时，这就变成了一项任务。

So for me, I keep a running list of books I'd like to read or movies I'd like to see on my laptop. Okay. But then it's part of a list. And my life is already full of lists and full of things I have to do. And so when it comes time to, you know, sit down and turn on Netflix or the book comes in from the library or arrives at the bookstore, now it's a task.

现在这是我必须做的事情，因为它是清单的一部分，然后我就完全失去了兴趣。

Now it's something I have to do because it's part of list, and then I lose interest completely.

这触及了我经常经历的一种需求敏感性的有害后果，即所谓的需求抗拒。没错。

And that gets to something I've experienced a lot, the kind of pernicious outcome of demand sensitivity, which is what's called demand resistance. Yes.

需求抗拒是指当我们感到被任务或'应该'压得喘不过气时，开始产生抵触。我们会拖延，即使是最初想做的事也会一拖再拖。因为如果生活中只给'应该'留空间，只工作不玩耍，任何人都会变得满腹怨气。所以我们可能还是会做那件事，但带着一丝怨恨或一点消极对抗的情绪。

So demand resistance is when we feel so overloaded with tasks or shoulds that we start to bulk. We procrastinate. We kick the can down the road even if it's something we initially wanted to do. Because if we only make room for the shoulds of life, all work and no play makes anyone a resentful human. So we might do the thing, but we do it with a little bit of resentment or a little bit of passive aggression.

这会影响我们的人际关系，尤其是那些对我们至关重要的关系，比如与伴侣或职场中的关系。它会让我们觉得生活就像一场永无止境的讨好他人的苦役。好吧，所以这

And that can affect our relationships, know, especially if they're important relationships to us, like with our partner or, you know, our our workplace. And it can just make us feel like life is this never ending people pleasing grind. Okay. So this

是我经常经历的，尤其是抗拒需求的部分。该怎么

is something I go through a lot, especially demand resistance part. How do

解决呢？我得承认，这确实很难。就连Mallinger医生都说，当我们试图减少完美主义倾向时，这是最难改变的事情之一。好吧，让我举个我生活中的例子。

we fix this? So I do have to say, like, this is hard. Even doctor Mallinger says this is one of the most difficult things to change when we're trying to pull back on our perfectionism. So okay. Let me give you an example from my life.

我真的很不擅长及时处理邮件，因为我把邮件视为别人给我制定的待办事项清单。

So I am really bad at keeping up with my email because I see my email as a to do list that other people make for me.

所以，就像，最大的'永不'。没错。

So, like, the biggest not ever. Yes.

我想很多人都面临同样困境。我学会的方法是尝试回归自己的价值观。我发现，如果我能想到回复邮件那头的那个人——因为我重视与他们的关系——那么一切就豁然开朗了。就像把干涸的颜料从画笔上梳开一样。

I think there's a lot of us in this same boat. So what I've learned to do is to try to turn towards my values. And I found that if I think about replying to the individual, the person on the other end of that email address, because I value my relationship with them. Then this all frees up. It's like it's like combing the dried paint out of a paintbrush.

所有事情都会变得顺畅起来。之后我就不再抗拒回复他们了。这并非神奇的180度转变，但它确实让我放下了对需求的抗拒，让事情得以推进并完成回复。

Just everything just kind of gets freed up and works more easily. And then I don't feel that resistance in getting back to them. You know, it's not some magical one eighty, but it absolutely allows me to let go of that demand resistance and make things work and get back

对他们来说。我认为记住你做这件事是有原因的也很重要，对吧？比如在处理邮件时，这不仅仅是面对无尽的要求清单，背后是有价值的。对吧？

to them. I think it also helps just to remember there's a reason you're doing this. Right? It's not like, for example, in the email case, it's not just this endless list of demands that are coming to you, but there's a value behind it. Right?

你知道，你正在进行的某个项目是你真正关心的，或者有一段你非常想维护的友谊，或是一个你非常在乎的工作伙伴。哪怕是重新连接你的价值观，我觉得这对减少一些抵触情绪很有帮助。

You know, there was some project that you were working on that you really cared about, or there's a friendship that you really wanna attend to or a work colleague that you really care about. Even just kind of reconnecting with your values, I can I feel like is powerful for reducing some of this resistance?

是的，完全同意。我认为我们可以把这些应用到——好吧，邮件是我们必须处理的事情。我们确实得搞定它，得想办法解决。

Yeah. Absolutely. And I think we can apply all that to because, okay, email is something we have to do. Like, we do have to do that. We gotta figure out, like, okay.

我该如何让这件事顺利进行？但当涉及到可选事项时，我认为我们可以敢于不追求效率。很多人脑子里有个规则：我应该总是做有成效的事，或应该不断自我提升。所以我觉得我们可以敢于不高效，转而关注那些看起来有趣的事情。你的思绪总是不自觉地飘向哪里？

How am I gonna make this work? But then when it comes to the optional things, I think we can dare to be unproductive. For many of us, there is a rule in our head of I should always be doing something productive or I should always be improving myself. And so I think we can dare to be unproductive and turn towards what looks interesting. What does your mind keep like wandering towards?

因此，我认为如果我们能挖掘出是什么让我的直觉警铃大作，我真正想做什么？如果我们的‘意愿肌肉’很不发达，一开始可能很难回答。但通过练习，我们可以逐渐感知自己喜欢什么、想做什么、觉得什么有趣或酷炫，并允许自己去做这些，而不是硬着头皮完成又一个‘应该做的事’。

And so I think if we tap into what makes my spidey senses tingle, what do I really want to do? That might be hard to answer at first if our want muscles are very underdeveloped. But I think with some practice, we can tune in to what we enjoy, what we would like to do, what looks fun or cool or interesting, and allow ourselves to do that rather than slog through another should.

我觉得在新年之际这尤为重要，我们此刻都处于这样的状态。‘敢于不高效’这个信条，我觉得很多人——尤其是我——会深有共鸣。现在我们来到第四点建议，这也是我很难做到的一点。但你提出我们需要重新定义失败。解释一下

I think this is especially important at the New Year where we're all finding ourselves right now. This mantra of daring to be unproductive, I feel like is one that a lot that that I definitely am gonna resonate with. So now we get to tip number four, another one that I have a tough time with. But you've argued that we need to redefine failure. Explain what

你的意思。当然。如果我们把失败定义为未达预期，而将‘合格’的标准设为‘完美无缺’，那就意味着我们永远不能达不到自己设定的极高、苛刻且常常不切实际的要求。从宏观角度看，如果我们设定这些超高标准，而多年来不可避免地无法达到，就会积累大量‘失败’，最终我们会觉得自己就是个失败者。

you mean. Sure. So if we define failure as not meeting expectations, if we set that bar for adequate at flawless, it means we're never allowed to not meet our very high personally demanding, often unrealistic expectations. And 10,000 foot view, if we set these, again, very high standards and we inevitably don't meet them over, you know, years and decades, we rack up a lot of failures. And then we start to feel like failures.

所以我给自己定下了一条规则，直到后来才意识到这一点。当时我在读研究生，分析一些数据时独自挣扎了好几个小时。当我向教授展示我的数字时，发现全都错了。她看着我说：‘艾伦，你不必一个人扛。’她道出了我甚至没意识到的自我规则。透过这个视角回望，我意识到自己的过度补偿就是超级独立。

So a rule that I set for myself that I didn't even realize until actually, so I was in grad school, and I was analyzing some data and was just flailing and struggling by myself for honestly hours. And when I went to go show my professor my numbers, they were all wrong. And she looked at me and said, Ellen, you don't have to do this yourself. And she had articulated a rule that I didn't even realize I had. Through that lens, I could look back and realize that, you know, my overcompensation is hyperindependence.

无论是处理朋友间的矛盾，还是试图搬运家具，我都会独自完成。我为自己设定了这种高度自我苛求的标准。因此，寻求帮助、接受建议或展现脆弱，对我来说意味着失败，意味着未能达到预期。但这并不奏效。

And so, you know, from navigating friend drama or, like, trying to move furniture, like, I would do it all myself. So I had set this, you know, high personally demanding standard for myself. And so if I were to ask for help or if I were to take advice or be vulnerable, that would mean that I was failing. It would mean that I wasn't reaching that expectation. But it wasn't working for me.

我们可以做的是审视：这有效吗？可行吗？当答案是否定的，与其固执己见地说‘好吧，现在我必须独自完成’，

So what we can do is we can we can look at, is this working? Is this feasible? Is this workable? And when it's not, rather than doubling down and saying, okay. Well, now I really have to do this on myself.

我们可以尝试不同的做法。在这个例子中，就是寻求帮助、接受建议、展现脆弱。这样做特别传递了两个信息：一是‘我信任你’。当我们向他人展示混乱而非仅呈现最终完美答案时，就发出了‘我信任你不会因看到我的混乱而评判我’的信号。

We can try to do something different. And in this example, ask for help, take advice, be vulnerable. And what that does particularly is it sends two messages. It sends, I trust you. When we show other people some of the mess instead of only the correct highlighted answer at the end, it signals, I I trust you to see some of the mess and not to judge me.

同时也传递了‘我们是一样的’这一信息。这让我们与所爱和关心我们的人处于平等地位，而非将自己置于教练与学员或师生关系中那种无懈可击的位置。通过寻求帮助、展示混乱或稍显脆弱，我们传递出‘我信任你，我们平等’的信号，而这正是拉近关系的纽带。

It also sends the message of we are the same. And rather than putting ourselves in an invulnerable position of kind of having this, like, coach mentee relationship or teacher student relationship, it puts us on an equal level with the people we love and who care about us. And so by asking for help or showing some of the mess or being a little bit vulnerable, we signal, I trust you. We're the same. And that is what brings us closer.

完美主义告诉我们，必须通过完美表现来赢得喜爱。但讽刺的是，展现我们也会搞砸或需要帮助，让对方有给予我们支持的机会，反而比竭力表现完美更能拉近距离。

Instead of what perfectionism tells us is that we have to earn our way into being liked by doing things well. So ironically, showing we are capable of doing things poorly or that we need their help. They have something to offer us that draws us closer as opposed to just performing as superbly as possible.

你开头提到这是你需要的书。撰写这本书并实践这些策略，是否让你不那么完美主义，稍微快乐了些？

You talked in the beginning about how this was the book that you needed. Has writing the book and engaging with these strategies made you less perfectionist, a little bit happier?

是的，绝对是这样。好吧，我想说我依然是个完美主义者。比如，我仍然设定高标准，仍然努力工作。

Yeah. Absolute well, okay. So I would say that I am still perfectionistic. Like, I still set high standards. I still work hard.

我依然深切关心与我共事和为之人，但我觉得自己也变得更灵活了。我会思考什么在这里行得通，而不是纠结于是否遵守了规则。我会想，我是否在过自己想要的生活？我是否成为了想成为的人，而非仅仅在做普遍正确的事？讽刺的是，展现一些混乱和挣扎反而——

I still care deeply about the people I work with and for, but I think I'm also more flexible. I think about what would work here as opposed to, did I follow the rules? I I think about, am I living the life I wanna live? Am I being the person I want to be rather than simply doing the generic right thing? And ironically, showing some of that mess and showing, that I struggle.

向他人分享我的成功与失败让我们更亲近。所以具有讽刺意味的是，比起深陷不健康完美主义时，现在我感到更有支持感和联结感。我能以一条结束语收尾吗？好的。

So telling people about my successes and also my failures brings us closer together. So ironically, I feel more supported and connected than when I was really in the grips of unhealthy perfectionism. Can I can I end with one closing Please? Message? Okay.

我想对所有产生共鸣、在听时频频点头的人说：我曾收到一封潜在客户的邮件，对方想来进行关于完美主义的咨询。我说很好，来吧。我们约了首次见面。

A message I want to send to everybody who sort of identifies who's been nodding their heads as they've been listening. So I got an email from a potential client, somebody who wanted to come in and do some work on perfectionism. And so I said, cool. Come on in. And we set up a first appointment.

结果预约当天她发邮件取消了。她说：“我查看了日程和精力状况，想等有时间全力投入时再来处理，确保能给予应有的努力。”我对她、也对听众们要说的是：你不需要翻天覆地的改变。哪怕对自己少苛责5%，多友善10%，或仅仅尝试改变你与自我批评/过度评价的关系——

And then the day of the appointment, she emailed me and canceled. And she said, I've taken a look at my schedule and my bandwidth, and I want to wait until I have time to work really hard on this. I want to make sure that I can give this the effort it deserves. And what I said to her and what I'll say to to listeners out there is that you don't have to do that much differently. That even being 5% less hard on yourself, you're 10% kinder to yourself, or simply trying to change your relationship to your self criticism or that over evaluation.

这就足够了。我们脑中仍可以带着各种规则，或保持每分每秒都要高效的动力，但不必听从它们。相反，如果我们奔向那些有价值、有目的、有趣或有意义的事物，行为或许无需改变，底层的心态却已不同——这并不需要完美主义所宣称的艰苦付出。

That's all you need to do. We can still, you know, walk around with a lot of rules in our head or with the urge to be productive every minute of the day, but we don't have to listen to them. And instead, if we run towards those values, towards what's purposeful or interesting or meaningful, we might not even do anything different. It's the mindset beneath that that will have changed, and that doesn't take a lot of effort or hard work contrary to what perfectionism tells us.

不知道你们怎么想，但我深受这段话触动。作为完美主义者，要记住：生活中的美好不必通过艰难跋涉获得。艾伦认为第一步可以很简单，此刻就能开始——质疑脑中苛责的声音。当它说我们不够好时，我们可以反击说“我足够好”。访谈中艾伦坦言，她仍会与完美主义角力，残余的自我批评注定会在访谈后折磨她，让她觉得搞砸了或说错了话。

I don't know about you, but I love that message. As a perfectionist, it's important to remember that the good stuff in life doesn't have to be a hard slog, and Ellen thinks the first step can be easy. We can just start right this moment by questioning the demanding voice in our heads. If it says we're not enough, we can fight back and say, I am. During our interview, Ellen admitted that she still struggles with perfection ism from time to time and that her residual self criticism was bound to torment her after our interview, making her feel like she'd messed up or said the wrong things during our chat.

所以我决定打电话给她问候一下。

So I decided to call her up and check-in.

你好。

Hello.

嘿，艾伦。我是劳里。

Hey, Ellen. It's Laurie calling.

嗨，谢谢你的跟进。

Hi. Thanks for following up.

是啊。记得昨天面试时你提到，有时面试后会苛责自己，或者需要紧急来杯金汤力。所以我想问问，今天你的完美主义情况如何？

Yeah. You know, yesterday in our interview, you mentioned this idea that sometimes you beat yourself up after interviews or that you might need an emergency gin and tonic. So I just wanted to check how is the perfectionism going today?

嗯，简短回答是我没苛责自己。耶！太棒了！是的，我很高兴向你汇报这点。

Yeah. So the short answer is I did not beat myself up. Yay. Yay. So, yeah, I'm delighted to report that.

详细来说呢，我确实有些想法。比如觉得透露太多，或者回答可以更完美。但庆幸的是，这些念头并没有达到‘苛责自己’的程度。

The longer answer is that, you know, I I did have some thoughts. So I did think, like, oh, I revealed too much. I thought, oh, that could have been more polished. But I am happy to report that the thoughts didn't hurt in the way that the phrase beating myself up applies.

嗯哼。

Uh-huh.

所以，是的。我想这种情况发生得足够频繁，让我明白这只是剧本的一部分。事情就是按照这个顺序发生的。对我来说，就是，比如，做完面试，觉得糟糕，然后意识到其实没那么糟。如果真的糟糕，那就吸取教训，再来一次。

So yeah. And I think I've this has happened often enough to know that it's just part of the script. It's just the order in which things happen. So for me, it's, you know, like, do interview, think it sucks, real realize it actually didn't. Or if it does, you know, learn from it, do it again.

这有点像你去餐厅时的流程，有个剧本。就是会发生的事情。你看菜单，点餐，上菜，吃饭，付钱，离开。所以，对我来说，面试的剧本就是这样。但对其他人来说，那些自我批评的想法可能会在考试后自动出现，比如，哦，我可能考砸了。

It's kinda like when you go to a restaurant, there's a script. There's just what happens. You look at the menu, you order, you get your food, you eat, you pay, you leave. So, you know, for me, that's the script for an interview. But for other people, those self critical thoughts might automatically come after an exam, like, oh, I probably failed.

或者是在派对后，我们回顾那些尴尬时刻并自责，也可能是在工作汇报后。这只是剧本在按部就班地演下去。这并不意味着下次我们必须更努力，或者必须安慰自己其实很有才华、别人喜欢我们，我们可以顺其自然。就像，哦，这就是我大脑会做的事。

Or after a party where we kind of review the lowlights and kick ourselves, or maybe after a work presentation. It's just but it's it's just the script playing out. It doesn't mean that next time we have to work harder or that we have to reassure ourselves that we're actually talented or that people like us, we can just let it play out. Like, oh, there's that thing my brain does.

哦，我喜欢这个。这让我感到更有动力开始自己尝试你的一些策略，这样我们就能扭转这个剧本，可以这么说。

Oh, I love this. This makes me feel so much more encouraged to start using some of your strategies myself so we can flip the script on the script as it were.

哦，我真的很高兴。

Oh, I'm I'm so glad.

非常感谢，艾伦。能再次联系真是太好了。

Thanks so much, Ellen. It was really great to connect again.

很高兴与你联系。感谢你的跟进。

Great to connect with you. Thanks for following up.

谢谢，维格斯。再见。

Thanks, Viggs. Bye.

再见。

Bye.

以上就是艾伦关于如何感觉自己足够好的实用建议。回顾一下，包括第一条建议：反驳你的自我批评。记住你可以控制脑海中那个刻薄的声音。第二条建议：你必须克服过度评价。

So there you have it. Ellen's effective tips on how to feel like you're enough. To recap, they include tip number one, talk back to your self criticism. Remember that you can control that mean voice in your head. Tip number two, you've gotta overcome overevaluation.

记住你的价值不仅仅取决于你的表现。第三条建议：停止把乐趣变成苦差事。对抗你的需求敏感度，回归生活的乐趣部分。第四条建议：重新定义你对失败的理解。你可以从考试心态转变为实验心态。

Remember that your worth is just not contingent on your performance. Tip number three, stop turning fun into a chore. Combat your demand sensitivity and get back to the fun parts of life. Tip number four, redefine what you mean by failure. You can make the switch from an exam mindset to an experiment mindset.

第五条建议：在对抗完美主义时，小步前进才是正确的方式。在我们‘如何’系列的下一集中，我们将转换话题。我们将探索一些方法，将目标和问题放在更广阔的视角中，并了解认识到自己并非世界中心的好处。没错，我们将学习如何放下自我。

And tip number five, when it comes to fighting perfectionism, baby steps are the way to go. In the next episode of our how to season, we'll be switching gears. We'll explore some ways to put our goals and problems in perspective, and we'll learn the benefits of realizing that you're not the center of the world. That's right. We're going to learn how to get over ourselves.

所有这些内容将在下一期的《幸福实验室》中呈现，由我，劳里·桑托斯博士主持。

All that next time on The Happiness Lab with me, doctor Laurie Santos.

在他的播客《追逐生命》中

On his podcast, Chasing Life

我是桑杰·古普塔医生。

I'm doctor Sanjay Gupta.

CNN首席医疗记者为您揭秘地球上最幸福、最健康人群的秘诀，助您活出最佳人生。

CNN's chief medical correspondent brings you the secrets of the happiest and healthiest people on the planet so that you can live your best life.

有些人天生就比别人更快乐吗？他们可能在做哪些我们其他人没做的事？

Are some people just born happier than others? And what might they be doing that the rest of us aren't?

在Apple、Spotify、iHeart播客、Amazon Music或您获取播客的任何平台，订阅《与桑杰·古普塔医生一起追逐生命》。

Follow chasing life with doctor Sanjay Gupta on Apple, Spotify, iHeart podcasts, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

这是iHeart播客。

This is an iHeart podcast.