友谊：应对变化、处理冲突与结交新友

这是一档iHeart播客节目。

This is an iHeart podcast.

想深入探索世界顶级运动员、领袖、思想家和实干家的心智奥秘吗？那就加入迈克尔·格瓦伊斯博士的《寻找精通》播客吧。这位曾与西雅图海鹰队、财富500强CEO、奥运奖牌得主及世界知名艺术家合作的高绩效心理学家，将与大卫·戈金斯、布芮尼·布朗、安吉拉·达克沃斯和西蒙·西涅克等顶尖人士对话，将他们的心理技巧和习惯转化为可应用的实用工具，助你释放潜能。在任意播客平台搜索finding mastery即可收听。Pushkin出品。

Want to dive into the minds of the world's greatest athletes, leaders, thinkers, and doers? Then join doctor Michael Gervais, a high performance psychologist who's worked with the Seattle Seahawks, Fortune 500 CEOs, Olympic medalists, and world renowned artists on the Finding Mastery podcast. Tune in as doctor Gervais sits down with high performers like David Goggins, Brene Brown, Angela Duckworth, and Simon Sinek to translate their mental skills and habits into applicable tools you can use to unlock your potential. Check out finding mastery wherever you get your podcasts. Pushkin.

嗨，《幸福实验室》的听众们。今天你们有耳福了，因为我的好友——畅销书作家兼幸福专家格雷琴·鲁宾刚刚邀请我参与了她播客《与格雷琴·鲁宾更幸福》的特辑录制。在这期节目中，格雷琴与我参加了她首场友谊圆桌会谈，还有了不起的Girls Who Code创始人、《所谓中年》播客主持人萝诗玛·萨贾尼加入。我们三人畅谈友谊变迁、矛盾处理方式以及成年后交友之道。这场对话令我受益匪浅，相信你们也会喜欢。

Hey, Happiness Lab listeners. Today, you're in for a treat because my friend, best selling author, and happiness expert Gretchen Rubin just had me join her for a special episode of her podcast, Happier with Gretchen Rubin. In this episode, Gretchen and I took part in her first ever friendship roundtable, and we were joined by the amazing Roshma Sajjani, founder of Girls Who Code and host of the My So Called Midlife podcast. Gretchen, Roshma, I talked about our friendships, how they've changed over time, how we try to handle conflict, and how we've made friends in adulthood. I enjoyed our conversation a lot, and I bet you will too.

由于友谊是幸福生活的重要组成元素，这个主题非常适合通过圆桌讨论进行深度探讨。今天我们三人齐聚于此共话友谊。我是研究幸福、人性和友谊的作家格雷琴·鲁宾，也是播客《与格雷琴·鲁宾更幸福》的主持人。今天在场的还有劳瑞·桑托斯。

Because friendship is such a huge element to a happier life, it is a great subject for a roundtable discussion to go deeper. And three of us are here today to talk about friendship. I'm Gretchen Rubin, a writer who studies happiness, human nature, and friendship. And I am the host of the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. And also here today is Laurie Santos.

劳瑞是耶鲁大学教授，开设过该校史上最受欢迎的课程《心理学与美好生活》，同时主持着超棒的《幸福实验室》播客，通过幸福科学帮助听众提升福祉。你好啊劳瑞。

Laurie is a professor at Yale University where she has taught the most popular course in Yale history, psychology and the good life. And she's also host of the Happiness Lab Podcast, a terrific podcast that helps listeners improve their well-being with the science of happiness. Hello, Laurie.

嘿，格雷琴！非常感谢邀请我参加节目。这个圆桌会谈太有趣了，我们的友谊也会因此加深呢。

Hey, Hey, Gretchen. Thanks so much for having me on the show. This roundtable is fun, and we'll build our own friendship.

友谊会因此加深，说得好。今天我们还有幸邀请到萝诗玛·萨贾尼。她是非营利组织Girls Who Code和Moms First的创始人，著有《付费吧》《勇敢而非完美》等畅销书及《编程女孩》系列，并主持精彩播客《所谓中年》，探讨这个核心问题：当获得梦寐以求的一切后，为何仍感到空虚？

We'll build our own friendship. There you go. And we are also here with Reshma Sajani. Reshma is the founder of successful nonprofits Girls Who Code and Moms First, and the bestselling author of books including Pay Up, Brave Not Perfect, and the Girls Who Code book series. She is host of the terrific podcast, My So Called Midlife, where she tackles the question, she's gotten everything she's ever wanted, So why does she feel so unsatisfied?

你好，Reshma。

Hello, Reshma.

嗨，Gretchen。能来这里真是太棒了。

Hi, Gretchen. So great to be here.

这将是一次非常有趣的对话。好的，说到友谊。古代哲学家和当代科学家都认为，人际关系是幸福生活的关键要素，而友谊无疑是其中一种极其重要的形式。最近，我正经历着人生的空巢阶段，我将其重新定义为人生开放之门阶段。

This is gonna be such a fun conversation. Okay. So friendship. Ancient philosophers and contemporary scientists agree that relationships are a key element to a happy life, and friendship is certainly an extraordinarily important form of relationship. Lately, I have been going through the empty nest phase of life, which I'm rebranding as the open door phase of life.

我注意到的一点是，在这个阶段，人们有时会意识到他们一直把熟人和朋友搞混了。比如，他们以为自己有朋友，但实际上只是有些友好的熟人。随着我越来越多地谈论友谊，我发现人们对这个话题非常热衷。人们真正理解它的重要性。而我们录制这段对话时，正值女性历史月。

And one thing that I noticed is how sometimes in this stage, people realize that they've been confusing friends with acquaintances. Like, they thought they had friends, but they really just had friendly acquaintances. And as I started talking more and more about friendship, I could see that people were really fired up about this subject. People really understand how important it is. And we're recording this in, women's history month.

虽然友谊当然不只属于女性，但女性之间的友谊确实有些特别之处。所以我很高兴能和你们两位一起探讨友谊。

And while friendships are certainly not exclusive to women, there is something kind of special about women's friendships. And so I'm so excited to talk to you both about friendship.

是的。没错。这一定会很精彩。

Yes. Yeah. This is gonna be awesome.

太好了。那么我们来聊聊你们自己生活中的友谊。你们是否采取过什么特别的步骤来加强现有的友谊或建立新的友谊？我是说，因为那首歌怎么唱的来着？结交新朋友，但不忘老朋友。

Excellent. So let's talk about friendship in your own life. Have there been any special steps that you have taken in your own life to either strengthen existing friendships or to create new friendships? I mean, because what is it? Make new friends, but keep the old.

一个是银的，另一个是金的。你为实现这一目标在生活中做了些什么？Loreal，让我先问问你。

One is silver. The other is gold. What have you done in your own life toward this aim? Loreal, let me ask you first.

是的。嗯，我之所以如此期待这次对话，原因之一是我觉得这正是我一直在思考的问题。明白吗？我曾经历过一段极度倦怠的时期。在那段时期，我意识到自己没能在友谊上投入足够的时间。

Yeah. Well, one of the reasons I was so excited to have this conversation is I feel like this is something I've been thinking about a lot. Right? You know, I went through this period of feeling super burned out. And and one of the things I recognized during that period was that, like, I hadn't been investing enough time in my friendships.

我也感觉自己有很多所谓的表面朋友，比如在工作中认识的，或者仅仅因为某些偶然联系成为朋友——比如我丈夫恰好认识对方的伴侣之类。我发现这些关系缺乏我以为的那种亲密联系。于是，作为一个尽职的‘幸福科学家’，我决定要主动去结交朋友。

I too felt like I had a lot of these, like, so called relational friendships where it's like, know, maybe I would see somebody at work, or we were just kind of friends because we happen you know, my my husband happened to know his partner or something like that. And, like, it was I was finding that I just, like, didn't have the close connections that I thought. And so, you know, like a dutiful, like, happiness scientist that I am, I was like, I'm gonna go about making friends.

我要把它放进实验室研究。

I'm putting it in the lab.

放进实验室研究。对吧？但这很难。中年时期交友困难，我觉得有很多原因。

Putting it in the lab. Right? Like but it's hard. It's hard in midlife, I think, for lots of reasons. Right?

其一是大家都太忙了。不像大学时期那样，你能自然而然地遇到别人——比如在瑜伽课上认识某人，或者我参加的电影之夜活动。在那里结识朋友后，你实际上需要特意在日程表上安排时间。

One is that we're all so busy. Right? It wasn't the ease with which I made friendships with people, say, like, in college or something like that, where you're naturally running into each other. You meet someone at your yoga class, or I have this sort of movie night that I go to. You meet friends there, and it's like, you actually have to put something in the calendar.

这种刻意安排可能相当耗费精力。但经过努力后，我可以肯定地说，中年时期结交新朋友是可能的，只是确实需要投入一些精力和功夫。

And that can be kind of pro prohibitively taxing. But having put some effort into this, I can say that it is possible in midlife to make new friends. But it does feel like it takes some energy and some work.

那你有没有尝试过什么具体的方法呢？

And was there anything specific you tried?

我觉得就是要主动走出去，主动提出邀约。比如你得主动说，嘿，也许我们可以一起去喝杯咖啡，或者一起去购物，又或者一起去看场电影。嗯。不过我发现，只要能克服协调大家日程这个障碍，人们通常都会很乐意参与。

I think it's like putting yourself out there and offering. Like, you have to be the one that says, hey. Maybe we should go on a coffee date, or maybe we should go shopping together, or maybe we should go see this movie together. Mhmm. What I did find, though, is that if you can kinda get through the hurdle of, like, figuring out everybody's collective schedules, people are usually really into it.

根据我的经验，当你推动人们将友谊关系更进一步时，大多数人其实都挺乐意的。只是我们都很忙，要把事情排进日程表确实不容易。

Like, my experience has been, like, when when you kinda push people to, like, take the friendship a next step, most people are kinda into that. It's just like we're all so busy. It can be hard to get things on a calendar.

嗯，我知道有研究表明人们确实很重视人际关系。尽管主动深化友谊可能会让你感到尴尬或难为情，但通常人们都会欣然接受。如果你想和某人做朋友，很可能对方也有同样的想法，记住这一点还挺让人安心的。

Well, I know that there's research showing that, like, people really do value relationships. And even though you can feel sort of awkward or self conscious by making that gesture to go deeper with a friendship. Usually, people are very welcome of it. Like, if you wanna be friends, probably they wanna be friends, and that's kind of comforting to remember.

完全同意。我认为在讨论友谊时，我们必须承认存在着一整套认知偏差——我们的大脑在思考友谊时真的很不靠谱。比如我们总是...

Totally. And I think this is a whole set of biases that I think if we're talking about friendship, we need to acknowledge, which is that our minds kind of suck when it comes to thinking about friendships. Like, we just

被这些偏见引导着

have these biases that lead

走向反社交或社交不足的状态，就像研究员尼克·埃普利说的那样。我最喜欢的例子叫'好感度差距效应'：你会假设生活中所有人——从生死之交的挚友到咖啡店偶尔闲聊的熟人——对你的喜欢程度都低于实际值。

us towards anti friendship or under sociality, as the researcher Nick Epley calls it. One of my favorite ones is this effect called the liking gap, which is just like, you assume that everybody in your life, from your best best, you know, ride or die bestie to, like, the person that you chat with occasionally at the coffee shop, you assume that that person likes you less than that person actually likes you.

嗯哼。

Uh-huh.

好感差距这一系列研究真是让人难过。你看，他们发现即使是大学室友——和你同住一年的室友，如果你问‘你室友有多喜欢你’，人们会说‘哦，他们大概只是普通喜欢我’。而实际上室友的想法是‘天啊我超爱他们’。

The liking gap is, like, such a sad series of studies. Like, you know, because they find it, like, even, like, college roommates, like, your college roommate that lived with for a year, if you ask, how much does your college roommate like you? A person will say, well, they like me. You like only so so. Whereas the college roommate's like, oh my gosh.

这很有趣。这种认知偏差正在系统性地将我们推向更少的友谊，这实在太糟糕了。

I love them. That's interesting. It's, like, systematically pushing us. Yeah. Systematically pushing us towards less friendship, which is which is terrible.

我们的大脑不该这样运作。

Our minds shouldn't work that way.

是啊。不过记住这点反而让人安心，这是...

Yeah. It's reassuring to remember that, though. That's that's

很有帮助。完全同意。

helpful. Totally.

那么你呢，蕾什玛？你为巩固或建立关系做过哪些努力？

And then how about you, Reshma? What have you done to strengthen or build relationships?

天啊。我是说，听着劳瑞讲话时，我思绪万千。首先，我一直有个紧密的朋友圈子。正如你们两位所理解的，我这辈子都是个外向的人。所以，我喜欢保持圈子小而紧密。

God. I mean, as Laurie's talking, I have so many thoughts. I mean, well, first of all, I always had a tight crew of friends. And so I have been someone who, you know, spends my life being extrovert as both of you understand. And so, like, I like keeping it tight and small.

我喜欢那种状态，比如和朋友共进晚餐或参加闺蜜旅行时，我们只是闲聊八卦、明星绯闻，或者毫无营养的话题。就是不谈正经事，不聊工作，也不讨论想改变什么。我一生都在做这些。

And I like being able to just, you know, when I have dinner with a friend or we go on a girls trips, like, we're just talking about gossip, about celebrity gossip, or about nothing. Like, it's just not serious. We're not talking about our jobs. We're not talking about, like, what we wanna change. I spent my whole life doing that.

所以我真是个很好的朋友。我为此自豪，对吧？哦，所以这部分

So I'm a really good friend. Like, I pride myself on it. Right? Oh, so that's part

构成了你的身份认同。

of your identity.

没错。讽刺的是，尽管我可能是朋友中最忙的那个，但凌晨三点的求助电话会打给我。对吧？当你深陷药物滥用问题时，我就是在场的朋友。明白吗？

Yeah. Like, I feel like ironically, even though I might be the busiest out of all my friends, like, I'm the 3AM phone call. Right? I'm the friend when you're going through substance abuse that is there. Right?

我就是那样的朋友。因此我认为，要成为好朋友，我必须始终保持交友圈精简。嗯哼。但泛泛之交可以很多。对吧？

Like, I I'm that friend. And so I think in order for me to be a good friend, I always kept my friendship circle really small. Mhmm. But my acquaintance pool very large. Right?

所以我会和你喝一杯。懂我意思吗？我们会叙旧，但不会透露所有秘密。对吧？

So I have a drink with you. Right? You know what I mean? We'll catch up, but I'm not gonna tell you all my secrets. Right?

或者说，我们不会，你知道，我们到不了那里，因为我觉得自己无法以那种方式给予。所以我认为有一点对我而言始终非常重要。这也是我开始关注中年生活的原因之一——人到中年，万物皆变。

Or like, we're not, know, we're not gonna get there because I just don't think then I have the can can give that way. So I think one, that's always been really important to me. So one of the reasons why I wanted to really start looking at midlife is in midlife, things change.

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯。即便是二十年的老友也会改变，关系会破裂。如果你是个习惯维持紧密小圈子的人，这真的很艰难。第二点是在纽约生活，所有人最终都会离开。突然之间，当我的孩子们还很小的时候，我就发现——天啊。

Mhmm. Even people you've been friends with for twenty years change, and there's breakups. And if you're somebody that like has kept your crew tight, that's really hard. I think the second thing is is that living in New York, everybody leaves. So all of a sudden, right, I feel like I found myself when my kids were really young, they're like, my god.

我有太多人要共进晚餐、看百老汇演出或做各种事情，突然就变成了对着十岁的孩子问：今晚要做什么？想看电影吗？懂吗？因为所有人都离开了，一切全变了。而我从未学过——至今也不懂。

I got too many people I gotta have dinner with or see a Broadway show with or do this thing with to all of a sudden, like, looking at my 10 year old being like, are doing tonight? You wanna watch a movie? Right? Like, everything shifted because nobody was there left. And I had not learned, and I still don't know.

我仍然...仍然不知道如何结交新朋友。我真的很吃力。我能认识很多泛泛之交，但深交新朋友特别困难。老实说，我对此还带点偏见。记得读导师希拉里·克林顿的书时，她写道每年都要交一个新朋友。

I still don't I still don't know how to make new friends. I really struggle. I can make a lot of acquaintances by really struggle with new friends. And if I was honest too, I just also like had a little bit of judgment around it. And I remember I was reading my mentor Hillary Clinton's book, and she wrote in there, like, that she makes a new friend every year.

嗯。我当时想：真的吗？如果希拉里都能每年交个新朋友...嗯...那我也应该能做到，明白我意思吗？这对我真是醍醐灌顶。

Mhmm. And I was like, really? Like, if Hillary can make a new friend every year Mhmm. Then I should be able to make a new friend, you know what I mean, every year. So that was a big eye opener for me.

我快速问一句，你说维持紧密圈子时，具体是多少人？纯属好奇——是三人？还是十人？

Let me ask you a quick question. When you say you keep it tight, like, what is that number? I'm just curious. Like, is that three? Is that 10?

比如，它是在它是在我

Like, it's under it's under I

我会说它是在七以下，八以下。

would say it's under under seven, under eight.

所有正在听Rushma的朋友们现在都在想，他们想，我是那七个人之一吗？是的。是的。良好的沟通在生活中至关重要，无论是个人还是职业层面。而我朋友Matt Abraham的播客《Think Fast, Talk Smart》能帮助你在这方面做得更好。

All of Rushma's friends listening right now are like, they're like, am I one of the seven? Yeah. Yeah. Good communication is essential in life, both personally and professionally. And my friend, Matt Abraham's podcast, Think Fast, Talk Smart, can help you do better with that.

每周，Matt都会与包括我在内的专家们坐下来，分享实用的、基于研究的技巧，帮助你学习如何在对话中深度连接、如何成为更好的倾听者，以及如何在冲突中清晰地沟通。本月，《Think Fast, Talk Smart》还推出了一系列与技术工具创作者的迷你访谈，探讨如何利用他们的工具提升你的职业沟通和生活质量。所以，如果你准备好提升你的沟通技巧，每周二在任意播客平台收听，并在fastersmarter.io上找到更多提升沟通能力的内容。

Each week, Matt sits down with experts, including me, to share practical research backed tips to help you learn things like how to connect deeply in conversation, how to be a better listener, and how to communicate clearly through conflict. And this month, think fast, talk smart features a mini series with tech tool creators on how to use their tools to improve your professional communication and your life. So if you're ready to level up your communication game, listen every Tuesday wherever you get podcasts and find additional content to level up your communication at fastersmarter.io.

我认为友谊有很多不同的类型，可能比人们说的还要多。有时候人们会问，你们是朋友还是不是朋友？这很有趣，Reshma，你提到你有紧密的朋友，也有熟人。对我来说，或许将朋友分成不同类别是好的，每一类都可能以不同的方式丰富我们的生活。而且，正如你所说，每一类朋友都有不同的责任

I think that there are many different types of friendship, maybe more than people say. Like, I think sometimes it's like, are you friends or are you not friends? It's interesting, Reshma, you were saying you'd have your tight close friends and then you have your acquaintances. And to me, it seems like maybe it's good to think about different categories, all of whom maybe add to our life in a different way. And and also, like you say, have different levels of responsibility

是的。

Yeah.

以及我们投入和期待的亲密程度，但它们都能丰富我们的生活。但在我们深入探讨这些不同类型的友谊之前，Laurie，关于我们正在思考的友谊类型，研究显示了什么？

And, like, intimacy that we that we bring to it and that we expect from it, but they can all add to our lives. But before we get into sort of our own colloquial sense of all these different kinds of friends, Laurie, what is the research showing about types of friendship as we're thinking this through?

是的。科学怎么说？我想，大概有几点。首先，科学非常清楚地表明，任何形式的社交联系都是有益的。对吧？

Yeah. What's the science say? I mean, I guess a couple things. I mean, one is what the science really clearly shows is that, like, any kind of social connection is good. Right?

我是说，

I mean, the

就像是

like the

没错。咖啡店的微风，火车上与陌生人的闲聊，这些都很棒，对吧？所以我认为总体而言，研究试图对这些社交连接形式进行分类。

Yeah. The breeze at the coffee shop, chat with the person on the train. All of that's good, right? Yeah. So I think overall, what the research is trying to do is to categorize those forms of social connection.

研究者常将我们与他人的连接方式分为三类：亲密型友谊、关系型朋友和社群型朋友。嗯。亲密型并非指浪漫关系，而是像拉什玛所说的那种紧密纽带。

And so often, researchers break up different kinds of ways that we could connect up to other people in terms of three different categories. They call them intimate kind of friendships, relational friends, and sort of communal friends. Mhmm. And so the intimate one, it doesn't mean, like, intimate in a, like, romantic intimate sense. It means kind of, I think, what Rashma is getting at.

对，就像我的乌鸦群。你的核心圈子。这些就是你的一切。

Yeah. Like, my crows. Right. Your crew. Like, this is your everything.

对吧？关系型朋友是那些你会一起做事的人。比如约着喝杯酒什么的。

Yeah. Right? The relational friends are the ones that you, like, do stuff with. You know? So you might, like, grab a glass of wine.

你可能会去看场电影。这像是种一对一的互动，但它们与凌晨三点的求助电话性质不同。格蕾琴，我想这正是你之前提到的——当孩子们离家后，你会意识到许多人属于关系性朋友范畴，而非亲密朋友。对吧？嗯。

You might go see a movie. And it's like a one on one thing, but they're not the 3AM call in the same way. Gretchen, I think this is what you were getting at when you were saying that, like, when your kids move away, you realize a lot of people are in that relational category, but maybe not the intimate category. Right? Mhmm.

但还有另一个我们常忽略的领域，就是那种社群或社区型朋友。比如你的读书会成员、一起上普拉提课的伙伴们。嗯。或者你的教会小组。对吧？

But there's another domain that I think we often forget, which is a sort of communal or kind of community friends. And this is like your book club, like the crew of people you go to Pilates with Mhmm. And and Mhmm. Or your church group. Right?

这类关系就像是一个群体

Like, this is like a group

在你的

in your

孩子班级里。那些在足球场上遇到的妈妈们。明白吗？根据社区活动的性质，这些人往往是我们见面最频繁的朋友。他们可能构成了我们最常规的社交圈。

your kids class. The soccer moms that you see, like, you know, on the field. Right? And those are sometimes the people that we can see most often, depending on what those, like, community events are. They might be our most frequent other friends.

这类友谊特别适合共享价值观和共同活动。但它们与前两类又有所不同。除非关系升级，否则你和足球妈妈们不会——这绝对达不到凌晨求助的交情，甚至可能不会一起看电影。

And they're really good for kind of having these shared values and these shared activities. But again, they're a little bit different than than the other ones. You might not with the soccer mom unless you take it to a new level. It's definitely not gonna be a 3AM call, but it might not even be the go to the movie together.

但这可能是发展为亲密朋友的第一步。就像种子，即便当下未达亲密程度，仍具备深化关系的潜力。正如蕾诗玛所说，结交新朋友很难，或许这正是建立新友谊的起点。

But it could be the first step toward an intimate friend. It could be a starter. It might have the capacity or the possibility of going further even if it's not then. If you wanna build a friend, like Reshma was saying, it's hard to make new friends. Maybe that's a place to find new friends.

完全同意，对吧？因为你需要与人们建立某种联系，才能把他们从分类中移出来。是的。而且我认为这确实需要付出一些努力。

Totally. Right? Because you have to have some sort of connection with people to, like, move them from the categories. Yes. And I I think it just takes some takes some work.

对吧？你得在足球场上和那位妈妈在一起，然后说，嘿，待会儿要不要一起去喝杯咖啡？

Right? You have to be at on the soccer field with the mom and be like, hey. Do you wanna get a coffee later

在足球场外面？

outside the soccer field?

或者你想不想一起去看场电影，或者分享些什么？这感觉挺脆弱的。几乎像是在冒险提问，因为对方可能会说，不了。或者我没时间。然后你就会觉得，我被拒绝了。

Or do you wanna, like, go get a movie or share something together? And, that feels vulnerable. Like, it feels scary to almost ask, like, because the person might be like, no. Or I don't have time. And you'll just feel like, I got rejected.

劳里，你的工作朋友去哪儿了？因为我发现另一件事。我是个工作狂。我发现我的工作朋友现在就像我最好的朋友一样。我丈夫总是取笑我。

Laurie, where does your work friends go? Because that's the other thing I found. Like, I'm a workaholic. I find that my work friends are now like my best friends. My my husband always teases me.

他说，如果你付钱给他们，那就不算数。是啊。

He's like, it doesn't count if you pay them. Yeah.

哦，是啊。

Oh, yeah.

这很微妙。不，我认为工作朋友可以属于这些类别中的任何一种。对吧？比如那种你们一起去看垒球比赛的工作朋友。

It's tricky. No. I think I think I think work friends can be in any of these categories. Right? You know, take the work friend that, like, you all go to the softball game together.

对吧？那种关系可能感觉非常集体化。如果是一个偶尔一起出去喝酒的工作朋友，但他们并不真正了解你私密的生活或重大秘密。对吧？

Right? That might feel very communal. Right? If it's a work friend that you occasionally go out to get a drink for, but they don't really know any of your, you know, real intimate life or your big secrets. Right?

那可能更偏向于关系型。但确实有些工作朋友是那种能共患难的挚友，他们知道你所有的秘密。我就有过可以凌晨三点打电话倾诉的工作朋友。对吧？所以

That would probably be more relational. But there are definitely work friends that are the ride or die besties that hear, you know, all this stuff. I I definitely have had work friends that are my 3AM call. Right? And so

我不确定这三种分类是否很有帮助，因为这几乎让它们感觉像是存在等级，但我认为将它们视为朋友类型或他们扮演的角色可能更有用，就像童年朋友那样。

I'm not sure that I think that those three categories are very helpful because it almost makes them feel like they're in a hierarchy, but I feel like it's almost more helpful to think about them as types of friends or the role they play, Like a childhood friend.

是啊。

Yeah.

他们以一种方式了解我们。他们认识我们的父母，知道我们童年的狗。即使现在我们在生活中与他们相隔甚远，童年朋友总有特别之处。萝莉，你提到了夫妻共同的朋友。

They know us in a way. They know our parents. They know our childhood dog. You know, even if now we're very far parted in them in life, there's something about the childhood friends. Lori, you mentioned the couple's friends.

嗯。

Mhmm.

比如，你可以出去参加四人约会。如果和别人一起旅行，会有种特别的体验。哦，这种亲密感可能并不强烈，但你们会以同样的方式旅行。那些你在网上认识的人。

Where, you know, you can go out on a double date. There's sort of a special kind of thing if you travel with people. Oh. And that's maybe not even that they're so intimate, but you would travel in the same way. People that you know online.

哦，是啊。

Oh, yeah.

这算数吗？比如，如果你们还没在现实中见过面，或者只在Zoom上见过？我是说，你们怎么看准社会关系？我敢打赌你们都有被人当作准社会朋友的情况，我也有。而且我也有自己的准社会朋友和常听的人。

Does that count? Like, if you haven't met people in real life or, like, people that you've only seen on Zoom? You guys I mean, what about parasocial relationships? I mean, I bet you all have people who consider you their parasocial friends, plus I do. And then I also have my own parasocial friends and people who I listen to.

所以我不确定。我是说，我还缺哪些类型的朋友呢？

So I don't know. I I mean, what other kinds of friends am I missing?

不，我是说，我觉得你说得完全对，这确实超级复杂。不过我要反驳一点，我之前提到的那三个类别并不是等级分明的。我想我们某种程度上都需要它们，对吧？

No. I mean, I think I think you're totally right that it's super complicated. Although, push back on the idea that those three categories I gave are hierarchical. I think we kinda need all of them. Right?

就像，我觉得你...嗯，确实如此。

Like, I think you Well, that's true.

我确实经历过这种情况，甚至在我精疲力竭的那段时期，虽然还有亲密朋友——那些深夜可以打电话的闺蜜，但找不到人一起上瑜伽课，也找不到人一起散步。

I definitely have been in situations, and even during my burnout situation, would describe being in this, where I still had my, like, intimate friends. I had my besties that I could call at night, but I had nobody to go to yoga class with. I had nobody to go for a walk with.

对吧？这必然涉及到亲密朋友和疏远朋友的概念。拉莎，你提到的正是这种情况：当一位亲密朋友变成疏远朋友时怎么办？嗯，这会彻底改变这段关系的能量场。

Right? This has to go with near friends and far friends. Rasha, this is what you're talking about is what about when somebody who was a near friend then becomes a far friend? Well, then that completely changes the energy of the relationship.

所以我才喜欢你的分类方式，洛瑞，因为这让我感觉好受多了。明白吗？人到中年后我不得不接受的事实是：友谊关系发生变化很正常。嗯。确实如此。

Well, is why I liked your categories, Lori, because it made me feel almost like better. Right? Like, I think one of the things that I've had to contend with in midlife is that it's okay if friendship shift. Mhmm. Yeah.

曾经无话不谈的密友不必永远保持这种关系。他们可以转变为普通社交朋友。这并不意味着你失败了。因为女性尤其看重友谊，当友谊破裂时会非常痛苦。是的。

Don't have to be somebody who's your intimate friend has to be your intimate friend forever. They can then become your relational friend. And that's that doesn't mean that you failed. Because I think for women in particular, because we take our friendship so seriously, is that it's very hard when they fall apart. Yes.

你会不断自责，觉得是不是做错了什么或应该更努力维系。但友谊与亲情不同——父母是你无法选择的。对吧？兄弟姐妹也是。

And you're like, I feel like I did something wrong or I should have tried harder. And it's it's different because it's unlike your parents, like, no matter what you're stuck with them. Yeah. Right? Or your siblings.

明白吗？血缘关系无法改变。义务使然。无论他们变成酒鬼还是刻薄恶毒之人，你懂我意思吧？这由不得你选择。

Right? It doesn't matter. Obligation Right. What happens to them, whether they turn into an alcoholic or become a raging bitch or, like, you know I mean? Didn't get this.

你注定要与家人绑定。但随着年龄增长，人们会意识到：对于友谊，尤其是那些有毒的关系，我们完全有权利选择退出。真的没必要勉强维持。

Like, you're, like, stuck with them. Whereas with friendships, especially as you get older, I think people realize, well, I don't have to be in this toxic relationship. Relationship. Like, I don't have to do this.

蕾丝玛，你自己处理过友谊中的严重冲突吗？

Have you managed severe strife in a friendship yourself, Reshma?

我是说，最近我不得不面对可能的分手，这是我第一次遇到这种情况。从来没有，是的。这以前从未发生在我身上。但我觉得部分原因——就不细说了——对吧？

I mean, most recently, I've had to contend with the potential breakup, which is the first time that's ever happened to me. I've never yeah. This never happened to me before. But I think part of without going into the details. Right?

但我意识到的一部分是，这没关系。有时候人们会经历一些事情，你需要允许保持一些距离，这并不意味着永远如此。嗯。这样也没关系。嗯。

But part of what I think I realized is that it's okay. And that sometimes people are going through things, and you gotta allow there to be some distance, and that doesn't mean it's forever. Mhmm. And that's okay. Mhmm.

你知道，我觉得对我们很多女性来说，我们背负着很多遗憾和嫉妒，很多‘本应该’‘本可以’的想法。随着年龄增长，你会意识到，好吧，

You know, I I think for a lot of us as women, we carry a lot of regret, and we carry a lot of envy, a lot of what a shoulda coulda's, You know, and I think the older you get, you realize that, well,

那可能不会发生在我身上。而我

that might not happen for me. And I

认为这常常滋生很多愤怒。我觉得很多人都在挣扎，就像我的修行导师说的，很多人真的在受苦。嗯。而友谊曾经是治愈的方式。对吧？

think that that oftentimes breeds a lot of anger. And I think that a lot of people are struggling as my monk would say, like a lot of people are really suffering. Mhmm. And friendships used to be the way you healed. Right?

是啊。记得以前经历分手时，你会心碎不已，只需要和闺蜜们窝在房间里，喝很多酒，吃很多垃圾食品，哭一场，看部电影。就这样过了一周后，你会感觉好多了。现在要做到这样更难了。嗯。因为生活中的各种责任。是啊。

Yeah. Remember that when you would go through a breakup and you'd be like devastated and you just had to sit in a room with your girlfriends and like drink a lot of wine and eat a lot of bad food and just cry and watch a movie. And, like, it just after a week of doing that, you were like, you felt better. That's just French it's just harder to do that these days Yeah. Because of all the commitments that you have in your life Yeah.

真正把友谊当作治愈的工具。

To really use friendship as a tool of healing.

嗯，这或许是个很好的观点，即我们必须承认友谊在人生的不同阶段呈现不同的面貌，并且再次强调，如果它不再像过去那样，也不意味着失败。你知道，如果你不再和某人促膝长谈至凌晨两点，这并不代表他们不像从前那样是你真正亲密的朋友。

Well, so maybe that's a good point, which is that we have to acknowledge that friendship looks different at different stages of life and not and again, not feel like a failure if it doesn't look the way that it used to look. You know, if you're not staying up until 2AM talking heart to heart with somebody, that doesn't mean that they're not a real true intimate friend the way they might have been.

不过，我认为我们也需要了解他人对朋友的定义，因为多年来我在友谊上的困扰往往源于意识到，比如，我们对友谊的理解根本不在同一层面上

Although, I think we also have to get other people's definitions of friends because some of my friendship strife throughout the years has been realizing that, like, we're just on a different page with how

我们如何定义友谊。比如，什么？

we're defining friendship. Like, what?

像是，

Like,

什么？比如，我曾有位非常亲密的朋友，现在依然很亲密。我不提名字，但她会知道我在说她。嗯。她曾住在纽黑文离我很近的地方，在耶鲁大学附近工作。我们那时，你知道的，形影不离，铁杆闺蜜。

what? Like, so I had this very close friend, still my very close friend. I won't use names, but she'll know I'm talking about her Mhmm. Who lived near me in New Haven, like, worked near me at Yale. We were, like, you know, besties, besties tight.

由于种种原因，她最终接受了份很远的工作。你知道，我不仅因为朋友要离开而难过，更是感到心碎。仿佛这段友谊出现了裂痕。而她完全无法理解我的感受。

And for lots of reasons, she wound up taking a job really far away. And, you know, I was not just sad that my friend was moving away for all the reasons. I felt devastated. Like, I felt like there was, like, a break to the friendship. And she couldn't understand this.

她当时的反应像是你觉得近乎被背叛了？

She's like you felt betrayed almost or

她接受了那份工作。她接受了那份工作。然后我

That she took the job. That she took the job. And and I

知道这份工作很适合她。确实，就像是完全正确的选择。但我有种特别的背叛感，直到经过一次长谈我们才意识到，她突然说，等等，你对我们友谊的定义是必须线下见面、互相串门、一起吃饭、一起遛狗。而她认为，在她的定义里，这些并非友谊的必需。

knew the job was right for her. It was, like, it was totally the right move. But I had this special sense of betrayal, and and it was only through, like, a long conversation where we we realized she was like, oh, wait. Like, definitional to your idea of our friendship is that we hang out in person, see each other at our house, eat meals together, walk her dog together. And she was like, that's not, in my definition, our friendship.

我们通过电话或Zoom每月见一次，照样能做好朋友。那次对话对我们俩都很有帮助，因为她说，按你的标准，这对你来说不算友尽，但对我而言却有这种感觉。

We'll be just as good a friends if we do all that same stuff on the phone or over Zoom or once a month. And that conversation, I think, really helped both of us because it was like, oh, under your definition, you're this isn't a friend breakup to you in the same way it's sort of feeling to me.

没错。

Right.

这让我意识到，原来我们对友谊的定义各不相同。

And and that just caused me to realize, like, oh, we we all have these different definitions.

确实如此。

Like Yes.

比如你的标准可能是：如果你不陪我过生日，我们就算不上好朋友；或者圣诞节不互赠礼物，不给孩子庆生——我觉得每个人都有自己的一套标准。

If you don't maybe your definition includes, like, if you don't spend your birthday with me, then we're not a good friend. Or if, like, you know, if we don't give gifts to each other at Christmas, or we don't celebrate our kids' birthdays, I think we all have these

有点深奥

kind of deep

那些根深蒂固、错综复杂的关于友谊重要性的想法，我们从未告诉过朋友。对吧。所以朋友们有时会在无意中触犯这些准则。

seated, intricate ideas of what matters for friendships that we haven't told our friends. Right. And so our friends sometimes wind up violating these without without realizing they're doing that.

这个观点非常到位。

That is a really good point.

就像生活成熟度。对吧？因为随着成长，责任越多。你得照顾

And like life maturity. Right? Because I think as you grow, you have more responsibilities. You gotta take

好

care of

你的孩子，如果有伴侣，或者从事有挑战性的工作。能投入的时间就不同了。对我来说，更看重时间质量而非长度。比如明天要和亚特兰大的一位闺蜜去女生旅行，我们可能

your kids or if you have a partner or if you have a, like, like, a challenging job. So it's like the time that you can spend is just different. And I think for some people, like, for me, I judge quality of time rather than, like, the length of time. Like, I'm going on a girls trip with one of my friends tomorrow who, like, lives in Atlanta. And maybe we talk on that.

一年只见三次，但她是我最好的朋友。对吧？我们知道相聚48小时，感觉却像共度了一年。

We see each other three times a year, but she is my best friend. Right? And we know that we're gonna get together for forty eight hours and, like, it's gonna feel like we spent a year together.

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而且，这些关系就像我生活中很多其他关系一样，我不需要投入全部时间，但当我们在一起时，时间质量很高。我们彼此非常投入、非常专注，就像什么都没改变过。

And, like, those are a lot of, like, you know, the relationships that I have in my life where I don't have to spend all of this time, but it's the quality of time when we're together. We're, like, super into each other and super engaged and just not like nothing's changed.

我认为时间安排是维系友谊的最大障碍，光是协调'你有空吗？'就够烦人的。比如你住在另一个国家，'我能趁我在中央公园散步时给你打电话吗？' '可以。'

I would say that I think scheduling is the biggest obstacle in my life to friendship, which is just the sheer nuisance of, are you free? Okay. Maybe you live in another country. Are you free that I can call you while I'm on a call in Central Park and we can talk by phone? Yes.

好吧。我们还得处理时差问题。'要不要去亚特兰大来个闺蜜之旅？''好啊。''但这周末不行。'

Okay. What we gotta manage the time difference. Oh, we wanna go into Atlanta on a girls trip. Yeah. I can't do this weekend.

'那下周呢？''不行。''这周呢？''哦，突然发现我也没空。能推迟一周吗？'

What about that week? No. This week. Oh, turns out I can't. Can we move it back a week?

'不行。改不了。'

No. We can't.

Gretchen，你现在就像在我私信里一样。是的。不。我今年就要50岁了。

Gretchen, it's like you're in my DMs right now. Yes. No. I'm turning 50 years old this year.

哦，我也是。是啊。恭喜。但

Oh, me too. Yeah. Congratulations. But

但也许你也在经历同样的事，Reshma，就像我大学朋友们那样，我有一群同样要满50岁的朋友。我们觉得，如果能一起办个50岁生日派对该多好？结果我们私信里全在讨论：六月怎么样？不行，我岳父母六月要来。

but maybe you're going through the same thing, Reshma, which is, like, my college friends like, I have this whole cohort of friends who are also turning 50. And we're like, wouldn't it be great if we could have, you know, a 50 birthday party altogether? And literally, our whole DM is like, what about June? No. My in laws are coming in June.

我根本没法安排。天啊。

Like, I can't do that. It's like, oh my god.

都是档期问题。

It's the schedule.

然后

And then

你们就直接放弃了。你们就说，好吧。

you just give up. You're like, yes.

我的群聊里就是这样。已经整整四天没人回复了，我感觉大家可能都在想‘天哪’。

That's exactly what's happened in my group chat. It's like, no one's replied for, like, the last four days, and I think we're all just like, oh my god.

是啊。确实如此。

Yeah. Okay. It's true.

良好的沟通对生活至关重要，无论是个人还是职业层面。我朋友马特·亚伯拉罕的播客《快速思考，智慧表达》能帮你提升这方面能力。每周马特都会邀请专家（包括我）分享基于研究的实用技巧，比如如何深度对话、成为更好的倾听者、在冲突中清晰表达。本月节目特别推出科技工具创作者迷你系列，教你用工具改善职场沟通与生活品质。若想提升沟通水平，每周二可在任意播客平台收听，更多进阶内容请访问fastersmarter.io。

Good communication is essential in life, both personally and professionally. And my friend, Matt Abraham's podcast, think fast, talk smart, can help you do better with that. Each week, Matt sits down with experts, including me, to share practical research backed tips to help you learn things like how to connect deeply in conversation, how to be a better listener, and how to communicate clearly through conflict. And this month, think fast, talk smart features a mini series with tech tool creators on how to use their tools to improve your professional communication and your life. So if you're ready to level up your communication game, listen every Tuesday wherever you get podcasts and find additional content to level up your communication at fastersmarter.io.

好。说到理解朋友这个话题，当人们带着不同预期或认知时如何保持宽容。我的‘四种倾向’人格理论将人分为支持者、质疑者、义务者和叛逆者，区分标准在于你如何应对内外预期——外部如工作截止日，内部如新年决心。

Okay. Now speaking of the question of understanding friends and maybe holding grace when people bring a different set of expectations or different understandings. Okay. So my four tendencies framework, which is a personality framework that divides people into upholders, questioners, obligers, rebels, and it has to do with whether you meet or resist outer and inner expectations. Outer expectations like a work deadline, inner expectations like your own desire to keep a New Year's resolution.

我快速概括下，想深入了解的人可以去gretchenruben.com/quiz测试自己属于哪类。简言之：支持者轻松满足内外预期，他们如期完成工作，毫不费力坚持新年计划。

And I'm just gonna go through this super fast. If people wanna know more about it, they can just go to gretchenruben.com/quiz and take the quiz and find out if they're an upholder, a questioner, obliger, rebel. Learn all about it. But the just for this just the nutshell version is upholders readily meet outer and inner expectations, so they meet the work deadline. They keep the New Year's resolution without much fuss.

蕾诗玛，我知道你是支持者，我也是。我们人少但精干。更庞大的是质疑者群体，他们质疑所有预期，只做认为合理的事。

Reshma, I know you're an upholder, and I'm an upholder. We're a small group, small but mighty. A bigger group is questioners. Questioners question all expectations. They'll do something if they think it makes sense.

因此他们将所有要求都转化为内在预期，必须知道‘为什么’。但当他们理解缘由后就会行动。然后是义务者，这是男女中占比最大的群体。

So they're turning everything into an inner expectation. So they have to know why. But if they know why and they understand why they can do something, Then there are obligers. This is the biggest group of people for both men and women. This is the largest group.

劳里，你是‘义务者’团队的骄傲成员。义务者能轻松满足外部期望，却难以达成内心期许。他们擅长信守对他人的承诺，但除非有外部监督，否则很难兑现对自己的承诺。最后是‘叛逆者’，这类人抗拒一切期望，无论来自外界还是自身。

Laurie, you are a proud member of team obliger. Obligers readily meet outer expectations, but they struggle to meet inner expectations. So they're really good at keeping their promises to other people, but they struggle to keep their promises to themselves unless they have that outer accountability. And then finally, rebels. Rebels resist all expectations, outer and inner alike.

这类人可以随心所欲做任何他们想做的事。但若你要求或命令他们做事，他们就会反抗。通常他们不会自我约束，所以不会把任何事列入日程表。我认为四种倾向理论对友谊有益，因为理解这些后，我更懂得接纳人与人之间的差异及其为关系带来的不同能量。比如叛逆者往往讨厌提前规划日程。

So these are the people who can do anything they wanna do, anything they choose to do. But if you ask or tell them to do something, they will resist. And typically, they don't sell themselves what to do, so they don't put anything on the calendar. And the reason why I think the four tendencies is helpful for friendship is that I found that now that I understand the four tendencies, I'm much more understanding of how different people are different and bring a different energy into relationships. For instance, rebels often don't like to put something on the calendar.

这会让他们感觉被束缚。更好的方式是临时提议：‘嘿，我周六下午会经过你家附近，如果你有空，想喝咖啡的话随时告诉我。我会到你家门口时发消息给你。’

It makes them feel trapped. It's much better to say something last minute. Like, hey, I'm gonna be in your neighborhood. If you're gonna be around on Saturday afternoon, you wanna grab a coffee, you can let me know. I'll just text you when I'm in I'm outside your door.

因为这样既随性，她又可以自由决定。这让我学会在他人表现出特定行为时不再恼怒。所以，作为义务者或坚守者，你是否发现这种差异可能导致冲突，或解释你与他人相处的某些经历？

Because then it's spontaneous and she can do whatever she wants. But so that helped me understand how not to be angry or resentful when people behaved in a certain way. So I don't know, as an obliger or an upholder, have you seen how this might cause conflict or explain things that you've experienced with others?

我是否更容易与同类人——比如和我一样的坚守者——建立良好关系？

Am I more likely to have a better relationship with an like, someone who is just like me and upholder or no?

很可能。对吧？因为你们俩都不会让对方抓狂。

Probably. Yeah. Right? Because because it's like, you both are just not sick, cutey.

你也保重。这样挺好。

Save you too. That's fine.

不。但顺从者能与所有人相处融洽。顺从者是O型人格。他们与所有三种倾向的人相处得最好。是的。

No. But obligers get along with everybody. Obligers are type o. They're the ones that get along the best with all three tendencies. Yes.

不过我觉得，你知道，我一直对四种倾向的科学有效性有所怀疑。

Except I think except you know, I I've always, like, wondered about, you know, the, like, scientific efficacy of the four tendencies.

当然。我知道。安妮和安妮·墨菲·保罗研究人格框架。是的。

Sure. I know. Annie and Annie Murphy Paul who studies personality frameworks. Yes.

但你提到的顺从者人格类型中有一点深刻真理，那就是你称之为‘顺从者反抗’的现象——当顺从者的时间被过多外部需求占据时，他们有时会直接摆烂。‘去他的，我不管了，我要放弃所有人。’

But there is deep truth into one part of the obliger personality type that you've talked about, which is this phenomena that you've called obliger rebellion, which is when the obligers have too many external demands on their time. Sometimes they're just like, eff it. I'm out. I'm giving up on everyone.

是的。

Yes.

没错。我绝对有过那种状态。

Yes. And definitely, I have been in that mode before.

嗯。而且

Mhmm. And

而可悲的是，有时候我不得不放弃的是与朋友之间的约定，这让我感到非常尴尬。对吧？就像，天啊，我被所有事情压得喘不过气，但我不会辞掉播客工作或错过教学任务。但和朋友约好的瑜伽课呢？嘿，我们能改天再约吗？

and and the sad thing is, like, sometimes what has to give is stuff with my friends for which I'm really embarrassed. Right? Like, I'm kind of like, oh my gosh. I'm overwhelmed for everything, but I don't, you know, quit my podcasting job or not show up for my teaching gig. But that yoga session I was gonna have with a friend, hey, can we do that another time?

我会调整安排。或者那个我本打算给 grieving 的朋友打的慰问电话，结果就这么搁置了。

I'll switch it up. Or that call that I know I was gonna put out for a friend who was grieving, that kind of falls by the wayside.

这很有趣。而且我认为

That's interesting. And I think

这是个绝佳的例子。如果我是你的朋友，知道你是 Obliger（义务型人格），看到你出现 Obliger 式反抗，感受到你内心的愤懑、倦怠和不堪重负，我可以用特定方式和你沟通，让你感觉不到压力。

this is a perfect example. If I'm your friend and I know you're Obliger and I see Obliger rebellion, I feel like the burning resentment and the burnout and the overwhelm happening, I can say things to you so that you don't feel like I'm putting pressure on you.

没错，正是这样。

Yes. Exactly.

明白吗？比如：嘿，你现在忙得不可开交，我们原定这周末做的事，或许该推迟到下个月尘埃落定时再说。

You know? Like, hey. You know, you've got so much going on. I know we talked about doing it this weekend, but maybe we should put shit to next month when the dust settles.

天啊，Dredgen，听你这么说，我胸口的重担仿佛一下子卸下了。太好了。

Oh my gosh. Dredgen, you just saying that, I feel like the weight on my chest was like, it's up. Okay. That's great.

是啊。是啊。因为你不会觉得这是针对个人的。你不会觉得这是针对个人的。个人。

Yeah. Yeah. Because you don't feel like it's personal. You don't feel like it's personal. Personal.

所以我认为对于一个坚守者来说，我没有这些问题，因为我非常自律、非常有计划性，以至于我立刻会觉得这是针对个人的。嗯。

And so for I think for an upholder, I don't have those problems because I'm so disciplined and so scheduled that I'm like, I immediately think it's personal. Mhmm.

对吧？比如，如果你对我失约了，为什么？你一定是故意的

Right? Like, if you drop the ball on me, why? You must have chosen

这么做。认为我一定是你肯定查看了你的日程表。我就想，好吧，她并不重要。所以嗯。我要取消那个安排。

do that. Thought that I was you must have looked through your calendar. I'm like, well, she's not important. So Mhmm. I'm gonna cancel that.

或者如果有人你对朋友说，哦，那个，你知道的，五周后的周六下午两点我有空。然后有人说，嗯，我不是很想确定下来。而你就会想，你有什么问题？让我们把这个安排到日程表上，这样就能实现了。如果你对我很重要，我对你也很重要，日程表上就该有这个安排的位置。

Or if somebody if you say to a friend, oh, well, you know, I'm gonna be free Saturday afternoon five weeks from now at 2PM. And somebody's like, well, I don't really wanna commit. And you're like, what's your problem? Let's put this on the calendar so that it happens. If you're important to me and I'm important to you, there's a place on the calendar for that.

而其他人会说，你这样安排生活简直是疯了，你知道的，提前五周

And other people are like, you are bananas for scheduling out your life, you know, five weeks

就计划。有人和一些不同的叛逆者是亲密朋友，他们就是，

in advance. Someone who's close friends with a few different rebels that just,

是啊，这行不通。

Yeah. It doesn't work.

行不通。

Doesn't work.

这行不通。所以我在想，人到中年，我们是否应该只和同类人交朋友，因为这样更容易？

It doesn't work. So I guess in midlife though, should we just make friends with people like us because it's easier?

不。与和你不同的人建立友谊会让你收获更多。

No. You get so much out of friendships with people who are different than you.

没错。而且我嫁给了一个质疑者，这非常有价值，因为我总能在脑海中听到他的声音：你为什么要这么做？因为作为一个坚守者，我的倾向是：好吧，我们做吧。我认为这让你更能理解人们是如何带来完全不同的视角的。

Yeah. Well, and I'm married to a questioner, and it's super valuable because I always have his voice in my head being like, why are you gonna do that? Because as an upholder, my tendency is like, okay. We'll do. And I think it gives you a grace for understanding how people are just bringing a completely different perspective in.

那么最后一个问题，这是个很有趣的问题：你有没有什么‘在家试试’的建议给听众？有没有什么事情是一个人可以在日常生活中做的，要么加深现有的友谊，要么为建立新的友谊做准备？因为我们讨论过这两点，而且你似乎需要同时维护和培养这两种友谊，听起来工作量很大，时间也很紧张，而我们并没有那么多时间。是的。但有哪些简单易行的事情我们可以融入日常生活呢？

So then the last thing I wanna ask, and this is a really fun question, which is, do you have a try this at home suggestion for listeners? Is there something that a person could do as part of their ordinary day to either deepen existing friendships or build towards new friendships? Because we've talked about both and you sort of have to maintain and cultivate both, which sounds like a lot of work and a lot of time, which we do not have. Yes. But what are some simple easy things that we can incorporate?

我有一个建议，是我的朋友蒂芙尼·杜芙教我的。我想

I got one like, so my friend Tiffany Dufu taught me this. I think

你知道蒂芙尼吧，她是个顺从者。

you know Tiffany. She's an obliger.

我看得出来。她有个有趣的故事，讲她原本计划了一次闺蜜旅行，结果女儿柯雅对她说，妈妈，我这周末需要你。

I can see that. So she well, this is an interesting story. So she was telling a story how she had, you know, she had a girl's trip planned. And her daughter, Kuah, said to her, oh, mom, you know, I need you this weekend.

哦，好吧。劳瑞作为顺从者

Oh, okay. Laurie, as an obliger

哦，是啊。

Oh, yeah.

这是不是触到你的痛点了？

Is that pushing all your buttons?

没错。就像说'我这周末真的需要你'，蒂芙尼考虑后直视她说：不，我要去参加闺蜜旅行。

Yeah. It's like, I need you this weekend. It's really important. And Tiffany thought about it, and she looked at her and she said, no. I'm gonna go on my girls trip.

哇。因为如果

Wow. Because if

我不会向你展示

I don't show you

如果我不先把自己放在首位，那么你永远不会明白这样做的重要性。所以我想对我们所有人说的是，我们都需要这样做，因为往往是女孩们的旅行被取消，往往是和朋友们的晚餐被取消，往往是我们的友谊，对吧，被其他人的需求所取代。而我们都知道，不，不，不，当你离开这个世界时，最重要的是你的友谊和人际关系。

that I'm gonna put myself first, then you are never gonna learn that that's important to do that. And so I think the take home that I would say to all of us is we all need to do that because it's often the girls trip that gets canceled. It's often the dinner with friends that gets canceled. It's often our friendships, right, that take the back seat to, like, everyone else's needs. And we know, no, no, no, that when you die, the thing that mattered the most was your friendships and your relationship.

所以，这些不能被放在次要位置。我认为每当我们感到这种拉扯时，就应该选择友谊。

So, like, that can't be in the back. So I think every time we feel that push and pull, pick friendship.

是的。非常喜欢这个建议。

Yeah. Love that. Love that suggestion.

你能想到自己生活中的一个例子吗？在那里你内心挣扎过，一部分的你想继续工作、埋头苦干或早点睡觉？

And can you think of an example in your own life where you had to have that struggle in your own mind of part of me wants to keep working or buckle down or go to sleep early?

我是说，总是这样。我有一个5岁和一个10岁的儿子，他们让我每分钟都感到内疚。我可以整天陪在他们身边，但他们还是会问‘你要去哪里？’明天我要和我的朋友Deepa一起去迈阿密，当我儿子意识到我第二天要离开时，他一路撅着嘴去上学。所以我觉得母亲的内疚是真实存在的，而且是一种持续的考验。

I mean, all the time. I have like a five and a 10 year old who are two boys who make me feel guilty every single minute. I could be around them all day long, like where are you going? I'm going to Miami with my girlfriend Deepa tomorrow and my son pouted all the way to school when he realized that I was leaving the next day. So I think like mom guilt is real and it is a constant exercise.

你明白我的意思吗？这是我必须经历的。不过，Gretchen，这件事教会了我一点，我一直在思考这个问题。我记得我去参加一个会议，会讲一个故事，说我儿子因为我要离开而不高兴。房间里的女性会说，别担心，Reshma，因为他不会记得的。

You know what mean? That I know that I have to go through. And one of the things though it has taught me though, Gretchen, and I've really been thinking about this. I remember I go to a conference and I would tell a story about that that my son was upset that I was leaving. And the women in the room would say, well, don't worry, Reshma, because he's not gonna remember.

我记得当时心里想着，但我一定会记住的。

And I remember thinking to myself, but I'm gonna remember.

哦，是啊。

Oh, yeah.

所以我认为弄清楚自己想要什么确实很重要。是的。还有是什么让你快乐。劳瑞，听你说话时我觉得很有趣，我会为了朋友推掉其他事。我需要和朋友在一起。我需要那些闺蜜之旅，那顿晚餐，那份陪伴。

So I think it's really important to figure out what you want Yes. And what makes you happy. And it was interesting, Laurie, as I was listening to you, I cancel other things before my friends. I need to be with friends. I need that girls trip, that dinner, that plate.

就像我需要我的闺蜜时间。

I like I need my my girl time.

正如格蕾琴会告诉你的，被迫反抗并不是达到那个点时最理性的状态，可惜。是啊。是啊。

Well, as Gretchen will tell you, obliged to rebellion is not the most rational state to be in when you hit that point, unfortunately. Yeah. Yeah.

是啊。你以这种方式为自己表达出来很有趣，我觉得这很有帮助。比如，我的身份认同是：我是个好朋友。我会出现。当我在权衡这个和那个时，友谊胜出。

Yeah. It's interesting that you articulate it for yourself in that way, and I think that's helpful. Like, my identity is I am a good friend. I show up. And when I'm weighing this versus that, friendship prevails.

就像我常对自己说，当我在思考如何分配宝贵的时间、精力或金钱时，我应该总是尝试把它们花在人际关系上。这就像是一个启发式方法，帮助我决定：我该花钱去参加大学同学会并应付那些麻烦事吗？还是该留在那个令人疲惫的短信群里？或者像你说的，劳瑞，你是那个必须承受第一次约稿尴尬的人吗？你会觉得，天啊，这感觉太傻了。所以我认为这是件很棒的事。

Like, I always say to myself, when I'm trying to think of how to spend my precious time, energy, or money, I should always try to spend it on relationships. And that's just like a heuristic that helps me like, should I pay to go to my college reunion and deal with the hassle of making the the things? Or should I stay on that really tiresome text chain? Or like you were saying, Laurie, are you the one that has to bear the the awkwardness of the first wanna get a copy where you feel like, oh my gosh, this feels so silly. So that's I think that's a really great thing.

我认为，把这些想法明确地为自己梳理清楚、表达出来是非常有帮助的。劳里，你觉得呢？你会怎么说？

And I think just being really spelling that out for ourselves, being very explicit is very helpful. How and how about you, Laurie? What would you say?

最近我一直在努力践行的一个观点是：我们在与他人建立联系时往往存在偏见。比如，我常会在日常生活中突然想起朋友。昨天我就用一位朋友从非洲带回来的那个漂亮的蓝色购物袋装东西，当时就对她产生了积极的想念。

So mine that I've been really trying to act on myself lately is remembering that we're biased when it comes to, like, connecting with other people. Right? So I often am just going through the day and will have thoughts about friends. Like, yesterday, I was carrying a bag that a friend of mine picked up on her trip to Africa. It's this very pretty, like, blue kind of, like, grocery bag thing.

通常我们会把这些积极的想法埋在心里。但其实完全可以发条消息说'嘿，今天用着你送的袋子呢'。

And I was just using it to carry something, and I just had a positive thought about my friend. Right? What we normally do is just keep those positive thoughts to ourself. But, of course, I could've just, like, text her and be like, hey. Have your bag today.

依然很喜欢它，正好想起你。

Still enjoying it. Just thinking of you.

或者干脆拍张你提着袋子的照片发过去。

Or, like, just even sending a photo of you holding bag.

对，我还在用呢。最近我常这么做——当对朋友产生积极联想时，无论是回忆还是对方送的礼物（毕竟我们总在享受这些馈赠），这是个好主意。

I'm still using it. Yeah. And so this is something I've tried to do a lot more. When I have a positive thought about a friend, whether that's a memory or especially a gift that someone gave you, often you're still enjoying the gifts that someone gave you and noticing it. Good idea.

但我们从不会主动提醒对方记得这些，对吧？

But you never, like, remind people. Right?

他们给你的一个杯子还是

A mug they gave you or

类似的东西。没错。实际上，我这周刚和一个朋友这么做了，她送了我一个杯子，我当时就说，今早我正用着你送的杯子呢。嗯。结果引发了一场对话，让我了解到这位久未联系的朋友的近况，她说，今早听到这个真暖心，因为我现在正陪在父亲身边接受临终护理。

something. Exactly. And and in fact, I did I I did just this this week with a friend of mine who literally gave me a mug that I was like, I'm enjoying your mug this morning. Mhmm. And it caused a conversation with a friend I hadn't connected with, and she was like, oh, that's so nice to hear this morning because I'm right now sitting in palliative care with my father Oh.

他情况不太好。要不是我因为杯子的事发短信给她，我根本不会知道这个情况。所以每当你想要表达赞美、写张便条、表示感激、回忆往事或表达挂念时，别犹豫，直接发短信、打电话或写邮件。你可能觉得对方不会在意，这对他们无关紧要。

Who's not doing well. And then I knew about and and and had I not texted her about the mug, I wouldn't have known that situation. And so whenever you have an urge to give a compliment, a note, a moment of gratitude, a memory, thinking of you, just send the text, just put in the call, just drop it in the email. You feel like they won't notice. It won't matter to them.

但研究明确显示，事实恰恰相反——它的影响超乎你的想象，尴尬程度低于你的预期，对接收者的意义也比你认为的更重要。我们的认知偏差总让我们低估主动联系的价值。嗯。

But there's literally studies on this that shows, no, it matters more than you think. It's less awkward than you think. It it means more to the person than you think. Our biases mean we, like, are under reach out. Mhmm.

但正是那次随意的问候，让我得知她生活中正经历困境。现在我能持续关心她，我们重新建立了联系，我也能以力所能及的方式提供支持——能这样做让我感到非常欣慰。

But that, like, moment of check-in, you know, especially that story, I wouldn't have known that something bad was happening in her life. Sure. And now I can check-in, and we can reconnect. And I I can be there to help in a way that I'm so happy I get to do that. Right.

我太喜欢这个故事了。

I love that.

我有个习惯做法：闲暇时经常翻看旧记录，比如八年前的今天发生了什么。经常会翻到和朋友的老照片或共同回忆，我就直接转发给对方，通常只写个"时光回溯"，连配文都懒得打，懂吧？

One way that I do that is I'll often, in an idle moment, go back. I'm always sort of interested in, like, what was happening this day eight years ago or whatever? And it'll often surface a picture of a friend or something that we shared, and I'll just send it to them. And I usually just say flashback. I don't even I don't even I can't even be bothered to type a caption, you know?

是的。但话说回来，我认为关键在于你存在于他人的意识中这个想法。

Yeah. But again, I think it is the idea that you're present in someone else's consciousness.

对。

Yes.

他们在想着你。他们记得你。或者比如，你们一起看过的电影续集。甚至可能是新闻里的某件事之类的

They're thinking of you. They're remembering you. Or like, oh, some the sequel to a movie you saw together. Like, something even from the news or something like

那个。是啊。

that. Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

是的。因为人们正在经历各种事情，太多事情了。而知道有人在想着他们，我认为这能彻底改变他们的一整天。

Yeah. Because people are going through things, so many things. And I think knowing that someone may be thinking about them, it's just it can shift their whole day.

完全彻底地改变。

So completely completely.

嗯，也许这是值得记住的一点，我们思考友谊如何让我们更强大、更快乐，但你也该想到，对方也因此变得更快乐。在临终关怀中，你甚至没意识到，但你正让那个人感到快乐。所以当你计划去亚特兰大的旅行时，你更快乐了，而你的朋友也同样快乐。嗯。所以很容易会想，这如何提升了我的幸福感？

Well, and and maybe that's a good thing to remember, which is we think about how the friendships strengthen us and make us happier, but then you also think, well, but they're being made happier. The friend and palliative care, you didn't even think of it, but you're making that person happier. So when you're planning your trip to Atlanta, you're happier, but then your friend is happier too. Mhmm. And so it's easy to sort of think about, well, how is this boosting my happiness?

但当然，这涉及的不止一个人。

But, of course, there's more than one person involved.

而且通常，你的视角是错的。对吧？比如当我想，哦，我要发短信给朋友，因为用了她的包真的很感激。是的，我在想，这对我感觉如何？

And and usually, your perspective is wrong. Right? Like, when when I'm thinking, like, oh, I'll text my friend, you know, because using her bag and really appreciating it. Yeah. I'm thinking, like, well, how's that gonna feel to me?

没错。但当然，她在另一端，感受会完全不同。她可能在某个平凡的周三，面对各种压力，突然收到这条开心的短信。对吧？那是惊喜，我在计划时没感受到，但她接收时感受到了。而且，你知道，就像那种温暖的微光——

Yes. But, of course, she's on the other end, and it's gonna hit her totally different. She's in the middle of some random Wednesday and whatever stressor, and she gets this happy text. Right? That's surprise, which I didn't feel when I was planning it, but she feels it on the And there's, like, you know, just, like, this warm glow that

人们会想到的。

people think about.

这很美。

It's beautiful.

这是另一项研究显示的发现，我一直铭记于心。这是尼克·埃普利和他同事的研究。他发现当我们考虑联系某人时，往往专注于他所谓的'能力'——我能写出合适的短信吗？我有时间不只是草草回复，而是认真写完整条信息吗？

This is this is something else that some of the research shows that I've always tried to take to heart. This is work by Nick Epley and his colleagues. He finds that when we're thinking about reaching out to someone, we tend to focus on what he calls our competency. Am I gonna write the right text? Do I have time to not just put, like, flashback and write the whole thing?

对吧？我说得对吗？你懂吗？这就是我们关注的。但收礼人根本看不到这些。

Right? Am I saying it right? You know? That's what we focus on. But our recipient doesn't see any of that.

他们往往只在意其中的温暖。比如，突然之间这个人想到了我，这让我感觉很好。对吧？嗯哼。

They tend to just focus on the warmth of it. Like, out of nowhere, this person thought of me. It made me feel good. Right? Mhmm.

所以有时候，我们为朋友做好事的能力会卡在'执行能力'这个环节。是的。再举个例子，我有个朋友刚和妻子迎来新生儿，我当时就想，天啊，自从我朋友们开始生小孩后，这事就一直困扰我。

And so sometimes, our ability to do something nice for our friends gets stuck in the competency part. Yes. Here's just another example. I had a friend who is just he and his wife just had a new baby, and I was like, oh my gosh. It's been around since my friends were having newborns.

比如该做什么？哦，送食物。但具体怎么送？送什么？我满脑子都在想：该送千层面吗？他们喜欢千层面吗？

Like, what do you do? Like, oh, you send food. Like, how do you send food or whatever? And I was all up in my head about, do you send lasagna? Do they like lasagna?

要不要送麦片？我不知道。然后我回想起尼克的研究，我

Should I need granola? I don't know. Yeah. And then I was thinking back to Nick's research, and I

突然意识到，等等，他们根本不会

was like, wait. They're not

考虑这些。他们不会分析'这是哪种千层面'，只会觉得'天啊，劳里突然送来这么贴心的东西，太暖了'。

gonna think about any of that. They're not gonna analyze. Was it, that kind of lasagna? They're just gonna be like, oh my gosh. Laurie out of the blue sent me this nice thing that's so nice.

所以这个想法就是，每当你产生想做点好事或与人联系的冲动时，别想太多。他们不会注意到那些细节的。

And so the idea is, like, whenever you get a urge to do something nice or to connect, don't overanalyze. They're not gonna notice that.

直接行动就好。

Just dive in and do it.

无论你怎么做，对方都会感觉很好。是的。

However you do it, it will feel good to them. Yeah.

另外你们刚才聊到的，我觉得这也是给孩子们树立好榜样。对，对。比如我和我丈夫都非常重视友谊。

The other thing is you guys are talking. I think it's also great role modeling for our kids. Yeah. Yeah. Like, both me and my husband, like, really value friendships.

家里总是人来人往。你懂我意思吧？尤其在看到如今孩子们因科技变得越来越孤立的当下，我们坚持努力去和朋友共进晚餐或

People are always in our house. Like, you know what I mean? Like and it's good, especially when you see how much more isolated children are becoming now because of technology. And that we're we're making the effort to go have dinner with people or go

去

to the

看比赛，或是结伴旅行，这些都是很好的示范。没错，我是这么认为的。

next game with somebody or go on vacation with somebody. It's just good role modeling too. Yes. I think.

是啊。不。他们看到你有个读书会。他们看到你要出去，对。没错。

Yeah. No. They see that you have a book group. They see that you're going out with yeah. Right.

正是如此。正是如此。你要去参加生日派对。你在举办生日派对。

Exactly. Exactly. That you're going to birthday parties. You're having a birthday party.

这也让成年生活看起来没那么悲惨，不像我们没和别人一起玩乐时那样。我觉得很多时候孩子们会想，天哪，成年生活真是糟透了。但当他们看到我们和闺蜜去迈阿密旅行或参加读书俱乐部时，就会觉得，哦，这比想象中容易接受多了。

It also just makes adult life look less miserable than when we're not, like, having fun with other people. I think a lot of times kids are like, man, adult life is, like, terrible. But, like, when they see us going to on a trip to Miami with our girlfriends or having that book club, it's like, oh, it's much more palatable than

我原以为。

I thought.

是的。完全正确。听着，这真是太有趣了。劳里，蕾什玛，感谢你们聊关于友谊的话题，我觉得光是进行这场对话就让我精神振奋。

Yes. Exactly. Well, listen, this is so much fun. Laurie, Reshma, thank you for talking friendship I with feel I feel elevated just having this conversation.

非常感谢邀请我们上节目。

Thanks so much for having us on the show.

这太有意思了。我们现在是新朋友啦。

This was so much fun. And we're new friends now.

耶，我们现在是新朋友啦。

Yay. We're new friends now.

耶，下周迈阿密之旅。

Yay. Miami trip next week.

没错。

That's right.

就这么定了。

Let's do it.

行动起来吧。希望这期节目能让你心情变好。记住，开始幸福计划的最佳时间是二十年前，次佳时机就是现在。

Let's do it. Well, we hope you're feeling happier after this episode. Remember, the best time to start a happiness project is twenty years ago. The second best time is now.

在他的播客《追逐人生》中

On his podcast, Chasing Life

我是桑杰·古普塔医生。

I'm doctor Sanjay Gupta.

CNN首席医疗记者为您揭秘地球上最幸福、最健康人群的秘诀，助您活出精彩人生。

CNN's chief medical correspondent brings you the secrets of the happiest and healthiest people on the planet so that you can live your best life.

是否有些人天生就比别人更幸福？他们可能在做哪些我们其他人没做的事？

Are some people just born happier than others? And what might they be doing that the rest of us aren't?

在Apple、Spotify、iHeart播客、Amazon Music或您获取播客的任何平台，跟随Sanjay Gupta医生一起追寻《追逐生命》。

Follow chasing life with doctor Sanjay Gupta on Apple, Spotify, iHeart podcasts, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

这是iHeart播客节目。

This is an iHeart podcast.