如何直面那些糟糕的事情（与约翰·格林对谈）

这是一档iHeart播客节目。

This is an iHeart podcast.

你是否在寻找让日常生活更快乐、更健康、更高效、更具创造力的方法？我是格雷琴·鲁宾，《快乐计划》畅销书榜首作者，在《与格雷琴·鲁宾共赴快乐》播客中为您带来新鲜见解和实用解决方案。我的搭档兼快乐实验对象是我的妹妹伊丽莎白·克拉夫特。

Are you looking for ways to make your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one bestselling author of The Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. My cohost and happiness guinea pig is my sister, Elizabeth Kraft.

我就是伊丽莎白·克拉夫特，好莱坞电视编剧兼制片人。加入我们，一起探索关于培养幸福感和好习惯的妙招与见解。

That's me, Elizabeth Kraft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore ideas and hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits.

欢迎收听Lemonada Media出品的《与格雷琴·鲁宾共赴快乐》。

Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from Lemonada Media.

普希金出品。

Pushkin.

嗨，《快乐实验室》的听众们。上期节目中，我与畅销书作家约翰·格林探讨了他推动我们关注结核病的使命。结核病本是我们几十年前就能成功治愈的疾病，却仍有数百万人因此丧生。部分原因是我们不愿投入治疗所需的少量资金。约翰认为这是桩丑闻。

Hey, Happiness Lab listeners. On the last episode, I spoke to bestselling author John Green about his mission to get us talking about tuberculosis. TB is a disease we've been able to successfully treat for decades, and yet millions of people still die because of it. And that's partly because we won't hand over the relatively small amounts of money needed to pay for treatment. John thinks that's a scandal.

若您认同此观点，我们已发起募捐倡议，您可通过givedirectly.org/tb捐赠任意金额。网址是givedirectly.org/tb。约翰的新书《万物皆结核》全面剖析了这种塑造我们世界的可怕疾病。但除非我们真正投入抗争，否则这种疾病不会消失。约翰邀请我在纽约新书发布会上协助他，接下来您将听到现场内容。

And if you agree, we've launched an appeal to help send any cash you can spare to givedirectly.org/tb. That's givedirectly.org/tb. John's latest book, Everything is Tuberculosis, is all about this awful disease that shaped our world. But that disease won't go away until we put in some effort to fight it properly. John asked me to help him out at a launch event for the book in New York, and that's what you're about to hear.

晚会开始时，约翰从《一切都是结核病》中选读了一段短文，讲述了他在西非一家诊所的访问以及与一位特殊年轻人的会面如何激发了他对抗结核病的兴趣。特别感谢Symphony Space允许我们与您分享这一集。

The evening started with John giving a short reading from Everything is Tuberculosis that explains how a visit to a clinic in West Africa and a meeting with a special young person sparked his interest in tackling TB. Special thanks to Symphony Space for allowing us to share this episode with you.

大家好。嗨。谢谢。非常感谢。

Hi, everybody. Hello. Hi. Thank you so much. Thank you so much.

今天能在这里与大家相聚真是太棒了。能在纽约市Symphony Space参加《一切都是结核病》这本书的正式出版发布会，对我而言是一份珍贵的礼物。这是书中我2019年首次访问卡赫结核病医院时的片段，当时坦白说，我甚至不知道结核病仍然存在。我们到达勒卡赫时，立刻遇到一个自称亨利的孩子。‘那是我儿子的名字，’我告诉他，他笑了。

It's so great to be here with you today. It's such a it's such a gift to me that, to to be here in New York City at Symphony Space for the official pub date, the launch of the book, Everything is Tuberculosis. So this is a little bit of my book from, when I first visited Cah tuberculosis hospital in 2019 when I didn't even know, to put it frankly, that tuberculosis was still a thing. When we arrived at Le Cah, we were immediately greeted by a child who introduced himself as Henry. That's my son's name, I told him and he smiled.

大多数塞拉利昂人会说多种语言，但亨利的英语特别好，尤其是对他这个年龄的孩子来说，这使得我们能够超越我结结巴巴的克里奥尔语短语进行交流。我问他过得怎么样，他说：‘先生，我受到鼓舞。我很开心。’他喜欢‘受到鼓舞’这个词，谁不喜欢呢？它就像是我们激发自己和他人勇气的力量。

Most Sierra Leoneans are multilingual but Henry spoke particularly good English especially for a kid his age which made it possible for us to have a conversation that went beyond my few halting phrases of Creo. I asked how he was doing and he said, I am encouraged sir. I am happy. He loved that word encouraged and who wouldn't? It's like courage is something we rouse ourselves and others into.

我儿子亨利那时九岁，这个亨利看起来年纪相仿，一个腿细长、笑容憨厚的瘦小男孩。他穿着短裤和一件几乎垂到膝盖的超大橄榄球衫。亨利抓住我的T恤，开始带我参观医院。他带我看了实验室，一位技术员正在显微镜下观察样本。亨利也看了看显微镜，然后让我看，实验室的技术员——一位来自弗里敦的年轻女性——解释说，尽管患者接受了几个月的标准治疗，这个样本中仍然含有结核病菌。

My son Henry was nine then and this Henry looked about the same age, a small boy with spindly legs and a big goofy smile. He wore shorts and an oversized rugby shirt that reached nearly to his knees. Henry took hold of my t shirt and began walking me around the hospital. He showed me the lab where a technician was looking through a microscope. Henry looked through the microscope and then asked me to as the lab tech, a young woman from Freetown, explained that this sample contained tuberculosis even though the patient had been treated for several months with standard therapy.

技术员开始向我介绍这种标准疗法，但亨利又拽了拽我的衬衫。他带我穿过病房区，那是一系列通风不良的建筑，里面有装着铁栅栏窗户的病房、薄床垫，没有厕所。病房里没有电，也没有稳定的自来水。对我来说，这些房间像牢房。在成为结核病医院之前，勒卡赫曾是麻风病隔离设施，现在仍有那种感觉。

The lab tech began to tell me about this standard therapy but Henry was pulling on my shirt again. He walked me through the wards, a complex of poorly ventilated buildings that contained hospital rooms with barred windows, thin mattresses, and no toilets. There was no electricity in the wards and no consistent running water. To me, the rooms resembled prison cells. Before it was a TB hospital, Le Carre was a leprosy isolation facility and it felt like one.

每个房间里，一两名患者侧卧或仰卧在简易床上。少数人坐在床沿，身体前倾，所有这些男性患者（女性在另一个病房）都很瘦。有些人瘦得皮包骨头。当我们走在建筑间的走廊时，亨利和我看到一个年轻人从塑料瓶里喝水后，立刻吐出了混合着血液和胆汁的液体。我本能地转过头，但亨利继续盯着那个人。

Inside each room, one or two patients lay on cots generally on their side or back. A few sat on the edges of their beds leaning forward and all these men, the women were in a separate ward were thin. Some were so emaciated that their skin seemed wrapped tightly around bone. As we walked down a hallway between buildings, Henry and I watched a young man drink water from a plastic bottle and then immediately vomit a mix of blood and bile. I instinctively turned away, but Henry continued to stare at the man.

我原以为亨利是谁家的孩子，也许是医生、护士或后勤人员的子女。所有人都认识他，大家都会停下手头工作和他打招呼，摸摸他的头或握握他的手。我立刻被亨利吸引了，他有些神态和我儿子很像，那种羞涩与渴望交流并存的矛盾气质。最后亨利把我带回医院入口附近小会议室里的医护团队中，一位护士笑着用宠溺的语气把他赶走了。

I figured Henry was someone's kid, a doctor maybe or a nurse or one of the cooking or cleaning staff. Everyone seemed to know him and everyone stopped their work to say hello and rub his head or squeeze his hand. I was immediately charmed by Henry. He had some of the same mannerisms of my son, the same paradoxical mixture of shyness and enthusiastic desire for connection. Henry eventually brought me back to the group of doctors and nurses who were meeting in a small room near the entrance of the hospital and then one of the nurses lovingly and laughingly shooed him away.

那孩子是谁？我问道。亨利吗？一位护士回答，最可爱的男孩。

Who is that kid? I asked. Henry? Answered a nurse. The sweetest boy.

他是我们最担心的病人之一，自称迈克尔医生的医师说道。他是病人？我追问。是的。

He's one of the patients we're worried about, said a physician who went by Doctor. Michael. He's a patient? I asked. Yes.

多可爱的小家伙，我说，希望他能好起来。迈克尔医生向我解释亨利并非小男孩，他已经16岁了。

He's such a cute little kid, I said. I hope he's gonna be okay. Doctor. Michael explained to me that Henry wasn't a little boy. He was 16.

他体型瘦小是因为成长过程中营养不良，加上结核病进一步消耗了他的身体。看起来状态不错啊，我说，精力很充沛，还带我参观了整个医院。这是因为抗生素正在起效，迈克尔

He was only so small because he'd grown up malnourished and then the TB had further emaciated his body. He seems to be doing okay, I said. Lots of energy. He walked me all around the hospital. This is because the antibiotics are working, Doctor.

医生解释道，但效果远远不够。我们几乎可以确定治疗会失败，这是个严重问题。他抿着嘴耸耸肩。很多事我都难以理解。谢谢您。

Michael explained, but we know they are not working well enough. We are almost certain they will fail and that is a big problem. He shrugged tight lipped. There was a lot I didn't understand. Thank you.

非常感谢。现在我很荣幸向大家介绍今晚的对话嘉宾，我激动得几乎难以自持——洛里·桑托斯医生莅临现场。

Thank you so much. So it is now my honor to introduce my conversation partner for this evening. I'm so excited. I can barely contain my excitement that Doctor. Lori Santos is here.

我是说，洛里·桑托斯博士是耶鲁大学教授，也是我最喜欢的播客之一《幸福实验室》的主持人，在那里你可以学习如何获得幸福，所以请大家热烈欢迎劳瑞。

I mean, Doctor. Lori Santos is a Yale professor and the host of one of my favorite podcasts, The Happiness Lab, where you can learn how to be happy, which like so everybody please welcome Laurie.

我想约翰没提到的一点是，我也是他的超级粉丝。

I think the one thing John didn't mention is that I'm also a huge John Green fan.

不，我很想听听这个。

No. I'd love to hear that.

我现在坐在这里，努力保持镇定。约翰，因为我是你的粉丝，当我收到邀请来和你对话时，我的脑袋简直天旋地转，就像那个爆炸头的表情符号在我厨房里到处飞一样。我当时心想，天哪，我居然能和约翰·格林讨论他的新书。他的新书是关于什么的？

Fighter is sitting up here, like I'm trying to gonna try to hold it together. So, John, because I'm a fan, when I got this invite to come have this conversation with you, like, my head did a little spinny thing, like this sort of head explosion emoji was like all over my kitchen. And I was like, oh my gosh. I get to talk to John Green about his new book. What's his new book about?

主办方说，是关于肺结核的。我说，好吧，酷，酷。我愿意把注意力交给约翰·格林，无论他写什么。

And the organizers were like, tuberculosis. And I was like, okay. Cool. Cool. I trust John Green with my attention span for anything.

我决定接受邀请，现在非常庆幸这个决定。因为一如既往地，当你信任约翰·格林时，他会给你讲述一个意想不到的精彩故事。还没读过这本书的朋友们有福了，因为你们会和我一样，彻底成为结核病信息的狂热爱好者。

I'm gonna, you know, go with this. And I'm so happy I did because as usual, you put your trust in John Green, and he tells you an amazing story that you didn't know that you needed to know already. And for those of you who haven't read the book yet, you're in for a treat because you, like me now, are gonna become a complete TV information stan.

我们很想听听这个。

We'd love to hear that.

是的。没错。我不会剧透什么，但肺结核，可以说是维多利亚时代前的大流行美容趋势——当然那时还没有抖音。肺结核在历史上引发过无数事件。对约翰·格林而言，它早已不仅是一种疾病，而是塑造文学、审美、公共卫生政策的故事载体。在我看来，它甚至关联着幸福科学——这个话题我们稍后会深入探讨。

Yes. Yeah. I'm not gonna, like, do any spoilers, but, like, tuberculosis, big, like, pre Victorian TikTok beauty trend before TikTok. Like, tuberculosis, the cause of so many things historically and so on. Like, as usual, tuberculosis for John Green has become not a disease but a story, a story that shapes literature and beauty and public health policy, and I think for me here, even happiness and some of the science of happiness that we're going get to talk about.

但首先我很好奇，为什么选择现在讲述这个故事？我们刚认识亨利，但抛开亨利不谈，为什么是肺结核？为什么是现在？

But to start, I'm just curious what made you wanna tell this particular story now? We just met Henry, but beyond Henry, why tuberculosis now?

对我而言，肺结核是不公正现象的典型病症。它的存在完全源于人类的纵容。它沿着我们亲手开辟的不公与不平等之路蔓延。绝大多数结核患者都来自最受压迫、最边缘化、最被现有体系抛弃的群体——无论是交通系统还是医疗体系。所以它不仅是生物医学现象...

Well, to me, tuberculosis is the exemplary disease of injustice. It is a disease that only exists because we allow it to exist. It follows the paths of injustice and inequity that we blaze for it. Overwhelmingly, the people who will get tuberculosis are the people who are most oppressed, most marginalized, most left out by the systems that we've built, whether that's transportation systems or health care delivery systems. And so it's not just a disease, although it is a biomedical phenomenon.

当然，作为细菌感染，结核病确有生物医学特征。但它更是社会现象。我们如何认知这种疾病至关重要——这不仅关乎患者的生死方式，更决定了哪些人会因此丧命。

Obviously, it's a bacterial infection. There are biomedical realities about tuberculosis. But it is also a social phenomenon. How we imagine and have imagined that disease throughout history matters so much because it doesn't just shape how people live and die of tuberculosis. It also shapes who lives and dies of it.

你的书中有个观点令我震撼。说来惭愧，在阅读前我以为结核病已是历史尘埃。但书中明确指出：对数百万患者而言，这场抗争从未停止。这让我想起福克纳的名言——'过去从未消亡，它甚至从未过去'。

And so something I really found striking in your book, and I'm kind of embarrassed to admit before I read the book, I kind of feel like TB was this disease of the past. Totally. Like and the book reminds you, of course, that it's this ongoing struggle for millions of people. It reminded me of the Faulkner quote, like, the past was not dead. The past is not even in the past.

结核病既未消亡，也非往事。能否谈谈当前结核病的现状？为什么我们必须立即关注这场危机？

Like, TB not dead, also not in the past. Give me a sense of the scope of TB today and why it's a plight that we need to be paying attention to now.

遗憾的是，当前形势与六周前已大不相同。去年约1000万人感染结核，125万人死亡。由于美国国际开发署撤资，最新预估死亡人数将增长30%——这意味着数十万条生命的消逝。斯蒂芬妮·诺兰上周在《纽约时报》报道称，数十万患者的治疗已被中断。

Well, the scope of TB today is very different from the scope of TB six weeks ago, unfortunately. And so last year, about ten million people got sick with tuberculosis. About one point two five million died. The most recent estimates are that with the defunding of USAID, can probably expect that to go up by about thirty percent, which is hundreds of thousands of human lives. Stephanie Nolan reported in The New York Times last week that hundreds of thousands of people have seen their treatment interrupted.

这对个人而言是一场灾难，因为这意味着这些人极有可能死亡。如果不及时恢复治疗，他们中的大多数人将会死去。即使能迅速重新获得治疗，他们也很可能发展出耐药性结核病，因为即使短暂中断治疗也可能导致耐药性。因此，这对个人是场灾难。对社会同样如此，因为这会导致更复杂的耐药结核病在社区传播，最可怕的是可能出现我们完全无药可治的结核病类型，这对全球都是威胁。

This is a catastrophe on an individual level because it means those people are very likely to die. Most of those people will die if they aren't promptly put back on treatment. And even if they are promptly put back on treatment, they're very likely to develop drug resistant tuberculosis because even a brief period without access to treatment can lead to drug resistance. And so that's a catastrophe on an individual level. It's also a societal catastrophe because it means that there will be more complicated forms of drug resistant tuberculosis circulating in communities, potentially most terrifyingly leading to forms of tuberculosis that we simply have no tools to treat or cure, which is a threat to the entire world.

当然，结核病没有道德指南针，也不受地理限制。它不懂政治边界，总是袭击我们中最脆弱的人群。但它并不局限于贫困社区。

I mean of course tuberculosis doesn't have a moral compass. It also doesn't have a geographical compass. It doesn't know about political borders. It will always strike the most vulnerable among us. But it isn't limited to impoverished communities.

纽约市就有结核病，美国也有结核病。这就是问题的严重性——今年我们将至少失去125万人，可能更多，而所有这些死亡，我要明确强调，都是本可避免的。

We have tuberculosis here in New York City. We have tuberculosis in The United States. And so that's the size of the problem. We're going to lose at least one point two five million people, probably more, to tuberculosis this year. And all of those deaths, I want to be clear, are needless.

当我问KJ Sung医生，如果人人享有医疗保健，应该有多少人死于结核病时，他显得很困惑。片刻后他说，应该是零。这让我深刻意识到所有这些死亡都是可以避免的。

When I asked Doctor. KJ Sung how many people should be dying of TB if everybody had access to health care, he seemed very confused. And then after a moment he said, well none. And that really struck me that all of those deaths are optional.

结核病有太多糟糕的方面。但书中特别 poignant（ poignant 中文对应词需根据语境调整，此处建议译为'深刻'或'揪心'）描述的是，人们不仅遭受疾病折磨，还要承受围绕疾病的文化和污名。有时他们不是在忍受微生物的侵害，而是在忍受我们人类糟糕的思维方式和对待疾病的态度。请解释这部分为何如此痛苦，并谈谈结核病与当今其他疾病在这方面的相似之处。

There's so many sucky, sucky things about TB. But one thing that the book describes in such a poignant way is that people don't just suffer from the disease, they suffer from the culture and the stigma around the disease. And sometimes they're not suffering from the microbes, they're suffering from our crappy human minds and the way we think about disease. And so explain why this part of the disease is so painful, and maybe share some parallels with how TB and other kinds of diseases that we think about today are very similar in this regard.

是的，结核病是种高度污名化的疾病。多位幸存者告诉我，战胜污名比战胜疾病更难。他们会被家人抛弃，被告知要为自己的病负责，说他们得结核是因为太穷、酗酒或任何其他理由。

Yeah, I mean tuberculosis is a highly stigmatized disease. Several TB survivors have told me that surviving the stigma is harder than surviving the disease. People will be abandoned by their families. They're told that they're responsible for their own illness. They're told that they got TB because they were too poor, or they got TB because they drank too much, or they got TB for any number of reasons.

事实是疾病当然不分道德。1980年代我小时候，父亲几次患癌，得的是膀胱癌。我近距离目睹了这些——当时仍普遍认为癌症是压抑情绪导致的。这种观念就像真正的癌症一样蔓延。

The truth is that, of course, illness doesn't know about morality. Dad had cancer a couple of times when I was a little kid in the 1980s. He had bladder cancer. And I saw some of this up close, that in the 1980s it was still pretty commonly believed that cancer was caused by bottling up your emotions. And that became like a literal cancer.

从某种身体感知的角度来说，这些带有污名化的思维方式确实能自圆其说。但显然——说清楚些——我们都知道我父亲得膀胱癌绝非这个原因。实际上他是个情感丰富、善于表达的人。即便他不是，也不该得癌症。看，我那时就陷入了污名化思维。

It makes a kind of somatic sense in the way that all these stigmatizing ways of thinking do. But of course, like we know that's not why my dad got bladder cancer, just to be clear. He's actually a very expressive man, very in touch with his emotions. And even if he weren't, he still didn't deserve to get cancer. There I was engaging in stigma.

这对患者是毁灭性的，因为带病生活本身已足够艰难。疾病让你被边缘化，社会秩序不断提醒你不再是完整的人。患病时你已在各种意义上被非人化。而这种将病患视为次等人、排斥在常规社会群体之外的想象，只会让疾病负担加倍。

So it's devastating for people because it's already difficult to live with disease. It already others you. You're already told by the social order that you're not a full person. You're already dehumanized in all kinds of ways when you're ill. And yet this way of imagining the sick as less than fully human, as outside of the regular you know group of the social order, it just it doubles the burden of being ill.

因此我们必须与之抗争。但污名化的悖论在于，最有效的对抗方式是让疾病可治愈。想想链球菌咽喉炎——没人会因此歧视患者。

And so I think we really have to fight it. The problem with stigma is that the best way to fight it is to make it curable. Right? Like think about strep throat. We don't stigmatize strep throat.

没人会说'你得咽喉炎？那你肯定是个糟糕的人'。我们不会污名化链球菌咽喉炎，因为它极易治愈。肺结核和其他多数不公导致的疾病也应如此。

Nobody says like, oh, you got strep throat? Like, you must be a terrible person. We don't stigmatize strep throat because it's eminently curable. And that should be the case with tuberculosis and most other diseases of injustice.

不过我觉得很有趣，即便是咽喉炎，人们也会说'谁让你去那家餐厅呢'。是啊，确实。

I think it's so fascinating though because I feel like even with strep throat, it's kind of like, well, you went out to that restaurant. Yeah. Yeah.

没错。我们总想为疾病找到归因。几年前因癌症去世的凯西·奥尔特曼曾告诉我：污名化就是在说'你活该得病，而我不该'。为了让灾难不降临于我，我必须找到你患病的原因。

Yeah. We always want to have a reason why people got sick. There was this wonderful young woman named Casey Altman who died of cancer a few years ago. And she told me once that stigma is a way of saying, you deserved for this to happen and I don't deserve for it to happen. And so for me not to have to worry about this happening to me, I have to have a reason why this happened to you.

这就是污名化的本质。

And that's what stigma is ultimately.

但我们编造这个理由实在太荒谬了。某种意义上说，这其实是件好事，对吧？你书里有句我很喜欢的话：我们总想知道事情发生的原因，尤其是坏事。

But it's so messed up that we make up this reason. I mean, some ways, it's kind of good. Right? You had this this quote in your book that I loved. We like to know why things happen, especially bad things.

对吧？我们的大脑就像寻找科学现象的解释一样，不断搜寻答案。但这次的情况是，如果解释是这种病会随机袭击任何人——包括我自己——我们的大脑根本无法接受这种可能性。

Right? Our mind is just searching for explanations in the way we search for explanations for all kinds of scientific stuff. But in this case, we're like, well, if the explanation is this disease just hits you indiscriminately, like, I'm at risk too. Our brains can't handle that.

是啊，这确实令人难以承受。所以除了污名化之外，我们应对的另一种策略就是浪漫化——乍看之下这似乎是污名化的反面。因为你不是贬低某人，而是把他们捧上神坛。但这同样起到了将某人排除在正常社会秩序之外的作用。

Yeah. It's really overwhelming. And so the other strategy we have for dealing with this in addition to stigma is romanticization, which sort of seems like the opposite of stigma when you first think about it. Because instead of like dehumanizing someone, you're sort of putting them on a pedestal. But it serves the same function of casting someone out of the social order.

我个人对此深有体会，因为我患有的症状在电视广告里被称为中重度强迫症。这确实是我的正式诊断结果。

Like I've experienced this a little bit because I have what the television commercials call moderate to severe obsessive compulsive disorder. And that is my actual diagnosis. It's

这里可不是在拍药品广告。

not actually a drug commercial up here.

当然不是。这是真实的生活。人们对强迫症既存在污名化——特别是那些强迫行为，因为显得古怪惹人厌而备受歧视。

No. This is real, man. This is real life. And people both stigmatize OCD. You know, some of the compulsive behaviors, especially, are highly stigmatized because they're seen as odd or off putting.

但同时也被浪漫化。他们表现得好像强迫症患者都拥有超能力，能让你变成像电视剧《神探阿蒙》里那样的天才侦探。但这根本不是我的体验——除了让我对某些特定且完全非理性的事情过度焦虑之外，我没发现这病给我带来任何特长。说真的，我觉得这被过度美化了。

But they also romanticize They act like having OCD comes with all these superpowers. It makes you a brilliant detective like that guy on the television program Monk. And like, that's just not my experience. Like, I haven't found that it makes me good at anything other than worrying about the very specific and totally irrational thing that I'm consumed with worry about. And it I I I just I think it's overrated.

你知道吗？十八、十九世纪盛行的浪漫化解读，本质上是通过美化这种疾病来理解苦难的根源，潜台词是‘你遭此厄运是咎由自取，而我不会’。我最爱举的例子是英国浪漫主义诗人约翰·济慈——他1825年死于肺结核。弥留之际，珀西·雪莱写信安慰他，大意是说‘这确实糟透了’（我转述一下）。

You know? And so romanticization, which happened a lot in the eighteenth and nineteenth century as a way of making sense of this disease, as a way of understanding why a bad thing was happening, was just another strategy for saying, You deserve for this to happen and I don't. Like, one of my favorite examples of this is John Keats, the great British romantic poet who died of tuberculosis in 1825. When he was dying, Percy Shelley wrote him a letter that was like, hey, you know, this is a bummer. I'm paraphrasing.

虽然肺结核很糟糕，但它总爱找上像你这样写出伟大诗篇的人——雪莱这话特别有意思，因为他自己也患着肺结核。所以他其实暗戳戳在说：我也是个伟大诗人。

This is a bummer and everything, but this consumption does tend to strike people who write great verses as you have done, which is a very interesting thing for Percy Shelley to say because he also had consumption. So he was a little bit like, and I am also a great poet.

肺结核炫耀大赛是吧？

Consumption flex. Right?

对对对，经典肺结核凡尔赛。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Consumption flex. Classic consumption flex.

肺结核最糟的一点是我们总对它道德审判，寻找病因并污名化患者。更糟的是它摧毁了人类健康最需要的联结感。书里最令人心碎的就是约翰讲述的那些被送往疗养院的结核病人的故事。

One sucky thing about TB is that we moralize it. We look for explanations. We stigmatize people. Another sucky thing about TB is that it ruins this thing that we so need to be healthy humans, which is our sense of connection. So a super sad part about this book is that John tells all these stories of TB patients who have to get shipped off to some sanatorium.

亨利就是个典型例子。这些患者几乎无法掌控自己的人生。你在结核病故事中提到的主题很有意思——这与你笔下虚构角色的困境一脉相承，对吧？那些渴望融入世界却因种种原因被隔绝的人。我很好奇你从结核病中获得了哪些关于孤立与联结的洞见。

Henry is a wonderful case in point here. These have little control over their lives. And the interesting thing I thought was so cool in your stories about TB is that this has kind of been a big theme of your work with fictional characters too, right? These folks who just want to be connected and just want to be part of the world, but they kind of can't for some reason. And so I'm curious what you learned about isolation from TB and kind of connection broadly.

亨利曾说他的梦想是成为社会中的普通人，这个愿望如此朴素又动人。长久以来，阻碍他的不是结核病本身，而是社会对疾病的污名化想象。这种隔离尤其具有历史性——我叔公1930年就死在结核病疗养院里。

Yeah. Henry has told me that his dream is to be a person in society, which I think is so beautiful because he just wants to be accepted as a full person in his society. And for so long that was denied to him because of tuberculosis, not because of the disease itself, but because of the way the disease is imagined by us, by the people around him, by his community. And it is really, really difficult, especially historically. Like my great uncle died of tuberculosis in 1930, and he was in a sanatorium.

他和数百万美国人一样，死在了疗养院里。当时他确实在疗养院。那些疗养院里的生活受到极度控制，人们被告知不能哭泣——连孩子也不例外，因为情绪激动会诱发肺结核。他们常被禁止家人探视，以防情绪波动加重病情。甚至不被允许站立。

He died in a sanatorium like so many millions of Americans. And he was in a sanatorium. And in those sanatoria, people's lives were so highly controlled they were told that they shouldn't cry, including children were told they shouldn't cry because it would be an exciting cause of tuberculosis. They were often told they couldn't be visited by their families because that might excite them and lead to tuberculosis. They were told they couldn't stand up.

他们能否阅读、能否写日记都由院方决定。生活在如此严密的管控之下。遗憾的是，如今许多结核病患者仍面临同样处境。我们依然更强调管控而非关怀。

They were told whether or not they were allowed to read, whether or not they were allowed to journal, and so on. They lived these very highly controlled lives. And unfortunately, that's still the case for many people living with tuberculosis. We still emphasize control over care.

我觉得这反映了疾病更普遍的层面。就像你刚才精彩谈到的自身心理健康挣扎，我认为当前任何患病者都面临着这种孤独连接的困境。

I think this is something more broadly about disease. I mean, you've talked, as you just did, so nicely about your own mental health struggles. I think anybody facing any disease right now, it's kind of the loneliness connection part so hard.

是啊，被隔离实在太痛苦了不是吗？疾病本身就会造成孤立——它让我们难以出门，传染病更会危及他人。这种人际联结的中断影响极其深远。

Yeah, it's really hard to be isolated, right? And disease itself can be isolating because it makes us hard for, it can make it hard for us to leave the house. Especially infectious disease can make it dangerous to be around other people. And that's really hard. Those interruptions to connections are so profound.

可以说，如果亨利像多数人那样被家人彻底抛弃——这种情况太常见了——他很可能活不下来。但他非常幸运，有位非凡的母亲：住院三年间几乎每日探视，抓住每个机会带食物给他，用爱守护着他。他在书中那首献给母亲的诗令我动容：'当众人逃离时，你始终屹立'。现在时态描述母亲坚守，过去时态讲述他人离去，这种时态转换意味深长。

And I think it's safe to say that if Henry had been like most people and had been completely abandoned by his family the way so many people are, he probably wouldn't have survived. But he was very fortunate and is very fortunate to have an extraordinary mother who visited him almost every day of the three years that he was hospitalized and brought him extra food every chance that she got and loved him through that. He wrote a beautiful poem about her that I quote in the book about how he said, You stand here when others ran away. And that switch of tense where he's talking about his mother standing in the present tense and everyone running away in the past tense has always been so meaningful to me.

话说回来，他能有位杰出作家将这段故事呈现给当代读者也是种幸运。这段是不是该为播客鼓掌了？

I mean, I think he's also really lucky that he's an amazing author that's bringing his story to light here today. Is it part where you just have clap for the podcast?

您正在收听的是与作家约翰·格林关于其著作《万物皆结核》的直播特别访谈。稍事休息后马上回来。良好沟通是人生必修课——无论是私人关系还是职场发展。我朋友马特·亚伯拉罕的播客《思维敏捷，言谈智慧》能帮您提升这项技能。每周马特都会邀请专家（包括我）分享实用研究技巧，比如如何深度对话、成为更好的倾听者，以及在冲突中清晰表达。

You're listening to a special bonus episode with me talking live to author John Green about his book, Everything is Tuberculosis. It's time for a break, but we'll be back in a moment. Good communication is essential in life, both personally and professionally. And my friend, Matt Abraham's podcast, think fast, talk smart, can help you do better with that. Each week, Matt sits down with experts, including me, to share practical research backed tips to help you learn things like how to connect deeply in conversation, how to be a better listener, and how to communicate clearly through conflict.

本月，《快速思考，智慧表达》将推出一个迷你系列，邀请科技工具创作者分享如何运用他们的工具提升你的职业沟通与生活品质。若你已准备好升级沟通技能，每周二请在任意播客平台收听我们的节目，并访问fastersmarter.io获取更多提升沟通能力的资源。

And this month, think fast, talk smart features a mini series with tech tool creators on how to use their tools to improve your professional communication and your life. So if you're ready to level up your communication game, listen every Tuesday wherever you get podcasts and find additional content to level up your communication at fastersmarter.io.

我想转换话题，稍微聊聊幸福这件事，因为——

So I wanna switch gears and talk a little bit about happiness because that's

我最爱讨论幸福话题了。

I love talking about happiness.

我经常谈论。

I talk about.

劳里，现在谈幸福可真是个好时机啊。

What an easy time to talk about happiness, Laurie.

不。但正因如此，我才特别高兴能和你同台探讨幸福。因为通常我们谈论幸福时总是搞错重点，陷入有毒的积极主义——仿佛幸福就是要无视世间所有糟心事，整天只会喊'开心开心'。

No. But this is why I'm so happy to be on stage with you talking about happiness. Because I think, you know, usually when we talk about happiness, we get it wrong. We're kind of in toxic positivity space. Where it's like happiness is about ignoring all the terrible suck in the world, and we're just gonna be like, joy, joy, joy all the time.

而我认为你从科学角度正确理解了幸福：意义并非来自逃避苦难，而是怀着责任感和好奇心接纳它；你明白奇迹可能源自平凡古怪的事物，我们也能从中获得积极情绪；面对真正糟糕的处境时，解决方案是保持好奇与善意。所以从本质来说，他确实是位幸福专家，我想这才是我们要表达的核心。

And I think you get happiness right from a scientific perspective because you realize that meaning comes not from avoiding suffering, but from embracing it with a sense of duty, curiosity. You get that wonder can come from really mundane, weird stuff, and we can kind of get positive emotion from that. And you got you get that in the face of, like, really terrible, sucky stuff, the move is curiosity and kindness. And so so he's actually kinda happiness expert, I think, is really what we're getting at.

谢谢。这正是我的声誉所在。

Thank you. That is my reputation.

那么让我们从希望开始。你之前说过不喜欢乐观主义这个概念，更倾向于希望。你是如何定义希望的？近距离思考结核病让你对希望有了什么新的理解？

So let's start with hope. You've said before that you don't like this idea of optimism, but prefer this concept of hope. How do you define hope? And and what has thinking so closely about TB taught you about hope?

对我来说，希望是一种信念，相信我们可以共同让世界变得更好。只有携手才能实现，但我们确实可以做到。这也是一种信念，相信人类可以成为好消息。我并不是说我们就是好消息，我们显然不总是好消息。

Hope for me is a belief that we can make the world better together. We can only do it together, but we can do it together. And it's also a belief that human beings can be good news. I'm not saying that we are good news. We're certainly not good news all the time.

我不是说我们是好消息。我是说我们可以成为好消息。我们或许能成为好消息。我们可以变成好消息，也能彼此成为好消息。对吧？

I'm not saying we're good news. I'm saying we can be good news. We might be good news. We can become good news, and we can be good news for each other. Right?

这就是我真正相信的。我之所以相信这一点，是因为如果不这样，我的生活就会陷入危险。对我来说，绝望不是某种遥不可及的抽象概念，而是我每天与之抗争的东西。它是让人最难起床的原因，比疲劳更甚。

Like, that that is what I really believe. And I believe that because if I don't, like, my life is in danger. Like, despair for me is not some it's not some abstract idea that feels very distant. It's something that I struggle against every day. It's it's the thing that makes it hardest to get out of bed, you know, much more than than than fatigue.

那是恐惧、绝望、忧虑，被这些情绪吞噬。如果我没有一定程度的希望来对抗这些，我就会陷入巨大的麻烦。因此，我花了很多时间努力培养并坚守我的希望感，相信这是对人类处境的正确回应。我真心这么认为。

It's it's fear and despair and and and worrying and being consumed by those emotions. And if I don't have a measure of hope to combat that with, I'm in big, big trouble. And so I have spent a lot of time trying to develop my sense of hope and hold on to it and believe that it is the correct response to the human condition. And I really do believe it.

你曾说过——这里我要暴露自己是个书呆子，我读过所有关于约翰的资料——你有一句我超爱并想据为己有的名言：'当今世界上最朋克的事，就是以真诚和希望直面当下问题。'

You had this is where I reveal I'm a nerd and I read everything about John. But you had this quote that I love and wish I could just totally steal, which is the most punk rock thing to do in the world right now is to embrace the current problems with earnestness and hope.

是啊，认真这种品质被严重低估了。人们喜欢...我理解，完全理解，特别是如果你还年轻，成长环境又特别糟糕的话。比如35岁以下的人，我很抱歉，同时也觉得有点责任。

Yeah. Earnestness is so underrated, man. People like to and I get it. I totally get it, especially especially if if you're you're young, young, you've had an uncommonly crappy situation that you've grown up in. Like, if you're under the age of, like, 35, my I'm sorry, and also, like, I feel a little responsible.

因为，怎么说，是我们造成的？大部分是，不全是。有些是传染病导致的，但我们确实难辞其咎。对不起，是我们的错。

Because, like, we did we did that? A lot of it, not all of it. Some of it was done by infectious disease, but we did a bunch of it. And I'm sorry. Our bad.

很多时候我们没能给你们带来好消息，对此我真心实意地感到抱歉。这个时代成长确实艰难，但我觉得太多人把讽刺当作盔甲，作为自我保护的方式。我完全理解这种自我保护的需求。对世界保持真诚是件辛苦的事。这让我想起我的老狗——它已经去世了——它会跑来跑去，玩累了就翻身露出肚皮，把最脆弱的部位展示给我们。

We didn't do a good job of being good news for you a lot of times, and I'm I'm real I'm genuinely sorry about that. And and this is a really difficult time to grow up, but I think so many people use irony as a kind of armor, as a way of trying to protect themselves. And I absolutely understand wanting to protect yourself. Being earnest to the world is hard work. I think about it in terms of my dog, who would my old dog, who's since passed away, he would run around and then he would get real tired and he would roll over and he would show his belly to us, the vulnerable part, the most vulnerable part of him.

它向我们展示脆弱并信任我们。这就是真诚，这很艰难，保持脆弱需要勇气。但我认为值得。

He would show it to us and trust us. And that's earnestness, and it's hard, hard work, and and it's hard work to be vulnerable. But I think it's worth it.

这个过渡很巧妙，因为我特别欣赏你作品中一个反直觉的特质：很多粉丝都知道，成为书呆子战士（nerdfighter）的目标之一就是「减少糟粕」。你在观众中倡导减少糟粕对吧？但反直觉的是，要减少糟粕，往往需要主动指出糟粕。你要找出隐藏的糟粕，在没人注意铽蜂窝织炎时把它拖到明面上。

That's a nice transition because one of the things I absolutely love about your work is a kind of counterintuitive thing, which is that I know lots of your fans know that one of the goals of being a nerdfighter is we're gonna decrease the suck. You're risen to decreasing the suck in the audience. Right? But the counterintuitive part is that to decrease the suck, you often have to actively point out the suck. You need to find the hidden suck and drag it out into plain sight when no one's paying attention to terbium cellulitis.

你会说：不，看看这个糟粕，好好看看。你把糟粕怼到人们脸上，这肯定不容易。某种程度上你成了糟粕的传递者，我很好奇你是怎么应对的。

You're like, no, look at this suck. Look at it. You wave the suck at people's faces, And that must be hard. Like, you're kind of the bearer of the suck in lots of ways. And I'm curious how you how you handle that.

对我来说关键在于群体协作。要知道世上不止我一个结核病战士，全球有成千上万结核病战士。此刻莱索托就有结核病猎手在主动寻找病例，而不是等患者病入膏肓才去医院治疗。此刻后排就坐着结核病战士，他们促成了两百万次GeneXpert检测试剂的降价——因为丹纳赫公司终于降低了检测价格。

Well, the key for me is being able to handle that in community. You know, I am not the only TB fighter in the world. There are thousands, maybe millions of TB fighters. There are TB hunters in Lesotho right now actively finding cases of tuberculosis, not just waiting for people to come into the hospital when they're so sick that it's very hard to cure them. There are TB fighters in the back of the room right now who are partly responsible who are partly responsible for the fact that 2,000,000 more gene expert tests are available than were last year because Danaher finally lowered the price of that test.

而且这确实是艰苦的工作。对社区卫生工作者来说是艰苦的，对医生护士是艰苦的，对我们所有人都是艰苦的。虽然艰辛，但同时也是非常有意义的工作。

And it's it's it's hard, hard work. It's hard work for community health workers. It's hard work for doctors and nurses. It's hard work for us. It's hard work, but it's also really good work.

在社区开展这项工作其实充满乐趣。伟大医师保罗·法默生前对我说的最后一句话是：这样不很有趣吗？我们能在这项工作中成为朋友，多么美妙。确实如此，与保罗为友是件无比快乐的事。

And to do it in community is fun. The last thing the great physician Paul Farmer ever said to me was, isn't this fun? Isn't it fun that we get to be friends in this work? And that's true. It was really fun to be friends with Paul.

我觉得这是我们常犯的认知错误。我们总以为逃避痛苦而非在群体中接纳它，才是通往幸福人生的途径，认为只要保留美好情绪剔除负面情绪就能活得更充实。但你的作品——无论是小说还是这本书——最打动我的，就是它直白地呈现这个议题并促使人们深入思考。这似乎是你长期探索的主题。

I mean, this is something that we get wrong a lot. Right? We think, you know, kind of avoiding discomfort rather than sort of embracing it in community is the path to a happy life, is the path to a more meaningful life because you just kind of keep all the good emotions and get rid of the bad. But one thing I love that your work has done for me, your novels and this book, is, like, it kinda puts it in your face and makes you think about it more. It also feels like this is something that you've done for a while.

我知道早年你在儿童医院担任学生牧师时，应该就是最初近距离观察疾病与死亡的经历。虽然你可能已习以为常，但大多数人都不愿直面这些残酷现实。我很好奇你是如何学会与不适共处而非逃避的？以及在创作这本书时，你是如何处理这些负面情绪的？

I know way back in the day, you had time working as a student chaplain in children's hospitals. I feel like that maybe must have been some of the first spots you look closely at illness and death. So maybe you're really experienced with it, but a lot of us don't like looking at the sock, like, so close on. I'm curious how you learned to sit with discomfort rather than running from it. And also just like how you did it for the book, right?

你试图通过作品将这些思考带给公众，但创作过程中必然多次深陷负面情绪的泥沼。我特别想知道你是如何应对这种挑战的。

You were trying to bring this out to community with your work, but there was a lot of times you were sitting with some pretty negative stuff writing this, and I'm just kind of curious how you tackle that.

我想写一本充满希望的书。所有优秀的、真实的书籍都应当蕴含希望，因为希望——恕我词穷——本身就是真理。但我也力求极致诚实。残酷的事实是：结核病这种可治愈七十年却依然肆虐的瘟疫，其恐怖程度超乎想象，而这深刻揭露了我们的本质。

I wanted to write a hopeful book. I think that all good books, all true books have to be hopeful because I think hope is, for lack of a better term, true. But I also wanted to write a really honest book. And the honest truth is that tuberculosis is an unbelievably horrifying scourge that we've allowed to be with us now for the seventy years since it's been curable. And that says a lot about us.

这说明我们并未平等珍视所有生命，尽管我们标榜如此；说明我们建立的系统在排斥特定人群，尤其是边缘化和种族歧视的受害者；说明我们未能将救命良药送给最需要的人；说明我们的制度优先考虑资本积累而非人类健康福祉。这些都在控诉着我们可耻的失败。

It says that we don't value all human lives equally even if we say we do. It says that we've built systems that exclude people, that exclude especially marginalized and racialized people. It says that we've failed to deliver cures to the people who need those cures the most. It says that we've built systems that prioritize the creation of capital over the creation of saving human the creation of human health. It says a lot of bad things about us.

但正如我在书中所言，这也是事实：我大学毕业那年，有250万人死于肺结核，而去年这一数字是125万。这125万仍是太多。没有人应该死于肺结核。但这样的进步是真实的，重要的是要明白这并非自然发生，也非不可避免。

But it is also true, as I say in the book, that the year I graduated from college, two point five million people died of tuberculosis, and last year, one point two five million did. That's one point two five million too many. Nobody should die of tuberculosis. But that progress is real and it's important to understand that it wasn't natural. It wasn't inevitable.

这种进步并非注定会发生。它之所以发生，是因为许多人共同努力，我们投入了资源和关注来实现它。因此对我来说，这个问题的答案就是团结、团结、再团结。答案在于寻找建立共同体、减少孤独感的方式。这对我而言才是关键。

It wasn't always going to happen. That progress happened because lots of people worked together to make it happen and we devoted resources and attention to making it happen. And so for me, the answer to that question is solidarity, solidarity, solidarity. The answer to that question is trying to find ways to be in community to feel less alone. That is really the key for me.

当我不在情感或世界中感到孤独时，我感到快乐。而当我确实感到孤独时，我会害怕。

When I don't feel alone in my feelings or in the world, I feel happy. And when I do feel alone in my feelings or in the world, I feel scared.

那么我们来聊聊你在这个过程中如何不感到孤独。我认为你工作中令人惊叹的一点是，你运用叙事的力量改变了很多人看待这个问题的视角——不是带着绝望，而是想着'这确实糟透了，但我们可以采取行动来改善'。我很好奇到目前为止粉丝们的反应如何？通过这本书和你的工作，你听到了人们对于了解结核病危机的哪些反馈？

And so let's talk about how you've not felt alone in this process. I think one of the things that's amazing about your work is that you've used the power of narrative to shape how a lot of people have viewed this situation, thinking about it maybe not with despair, but with like, this is sucky, but like we can put some agency in to fix this. I'm just curious what the response has been from your fans so far. Like, what have you heard about people learning about the TB crisis through this book and through your work?

嗯，反响相当棒，真的很惊人。我刚刚才意识到——就在过去三秒钟——现场可能有些传染病医生以为他们是来听关于肺结核的演讲。

Well, it's pretty great. It's pretty amazing. I this so I just realized just just now in the last three seconds that there are probably some, like, infectious disease doctors who thought they were coming to a talk about tuberculosis.

如果你想讨论肺结核我们也可以切入正题。不过我本来打算继续聊幸福话题的。

I mean, we can go there if you want. I was gonna stick with happiness.

是啊不用了。我完全把他们忘了。他们现在肯定在想：这家伙是谁？为什么所有人都在笑这些我听不懂的笑话？

Yeah. No. I just totally forgot about them. And they must be like, who the hell is this guy? Why are all these people laughing at these jokes I don't understand?

为什么为什么为什么，如果我说打喷嚏不正常，他们会有反应吗？所以请不要感到被排斥。请感到受欢迎。我忘了你的问题，因为我担心那些传染病医生。

Why why why why if I say it's not normal to sneeze, will they have a reaction? So please don't feel excluded. Please feel welcomed. I forgot your question because I got concerned about the infectious disease doctors.

情况怎么样？像是

What's the been? Like

反响令人难以置信。我是说，并不是我在读每一条Goodreads评论——你不该这么做。我知道房间里有些作家朋友，有些作家在场。别读你的Goodreads评论，但我应该读。我该受这份罪。

The reaction has been incredible. I mean, it's been not that I'm reading every Goodreads review, but which you should not do. I know there are some authors in the room, some author friends, some some authors in the room. Don't read your Goodreads reviews, but I should. I should suffer.

你不该读。照我说的做，别学我的样。但反响确实惊人且让人应接不暇。就像我们对话开头你提到的，人们会说‘这位青少年小说家写了本关于肺结核的书？我买账’——这本身就很不可思议。

You should not. Do as I say, not as I do. But no, the response has been incredible and and really overwhelming. I mean, just the fact that like I mean, to your point that you made at the beginning of of of our conversation, the fact that people would be like, oh, this young adult novelist wrote a book about tuberculosis? I'm in.

这太不可思议了。这简直是给我的礼物。非常感谢你们如此相信我的作品，以及今天能来到这里。

Is incredible. Like, that is an incredible fact. What a a gift to me. Thank you so so much for believing in my my my work that much and just being here today.

但这正是你作品的一贯主题，至少我与你的作品互动时的感受——你的作品总是带我们直面那些我们回避的事物。对我这个严重死亡恐惧症患者来说，你很多作品都在探讨生命的脆弱（顺便说，死亡恐惧症就是怕死，在座可能不少人——

So but this is just a theme with so much your work, at least my kind of interaction with your work, which is like your stuff always brings us into things that we do not face. And a big one for me, because I'm a huge thanatophobe, is that a lot of your work deals with the fragility of life. Thanatophobia is fear of death. By the way, probably a lot of you

哦，谢谢。天啊，我刚才差点接不上话。

Oh, thank you. God. I was in trouble.

我刚才把一些耶鲁教授的东西掉在那儿了，我道歉，真的抱歉。不，就像，你的东西可能会掉在我们身上，你简直是在让我们直面死亡。

So I was dropping some Yale professor stuff right there. I apologize. I apologize. No. The like, your stuff may fall on our like, you just make us look at death.

我们啊，我们属于自然界的一部分。这事迟早也会发生在你身上。

We like, we are part of the natural world. It's gonna happen to you too.

我们是哺乳动物。

We're mammals.

没错。但，我们总喜欢把自己当动物看。我们不愿正视自然界，我认为这导致了我们讨论的许多污名化现象。好消息是科学证明你是对的——越关注生命的脆弱，就越会拥抱它，越会做慷慨之事，活得越精彩。

Yes. But, like, we like to think of ourselves as animals. Like, we don't we don't like to look at the natural world, and I think that has led to a lot of the stigma and the stuff we're talking about. So the good news is that the science shows that you're right. The more we focus on the fragility of life, the more you embrace it, the more you do generous stuff, the more you live well.

不过我很好奇你怎么应对这个。是什么吸引你关注这个领域？通过如此深入的聚焦，你个人有什么发现？

But I'm just curious how you deal with that. Like, what's gravitated you towards this? And what have you discovered personally by focusing on this so closely?

呃，我觉得这事挺重要的。我有点像你，也有点困惑。这确实是个问题。我不太明白为什么其他人不是时刻都在思考这个。是啊。

Well, I just think it's a big deal. I'm a little like you, I'm a little confused. It's a thing. I'm a little confused why everyone else isn't thinking about it all the time. Yeah.

对，对，是吧？我有次在机场给我哥发信息：'你有没有想过，机场里的所有人七八十年后都会不在了？'

Yeah. Yeah. Right? I I texted my brother once. I was in an airport, and I texted my brother, do you ever think about the fact that when you're in an airport, everybody who's in the airport will be gone in, like, seven or eight decades?

汉克，愿上帝保佑他，回信说不行。但我愿意，劳里。我真的愿意。我不知道为什么。我不明白为何我被安排在此见证如此多的死亡并频繁谈论死亡，但事实如此。

And Hank, god bless him, wrote back, no. But I do, Laurie. I do. I don't know why. I don't know why I was put here to witness a lot of death and talk a lot about death, but I was.

这就是我最终所处的境况。我和你一样。与其说我害怕死亡，不如说我对其深感忧虑。你知道吗？我觉得这是件非常、非常重要的事。

And that's just that's that's the situation I ended up in. I am like you. I don't know if I'm afraid of death so much as I'm deeply concerned about it. You know? Like, I just think it's a very, very big deal.

我们需要也应该花更多时间去思考和谈论它，因为当我们不这样做时，当人们濒临死亡或陪伴临终者时，我们某种程度上将他们排斥在外。我们把他们推到一边，仿佛在说，哦不，这太不方便了。就像，这是我不愿去想的事，不愿面对的场景。

And that we need to we should spend more time thinking and talking about it because when we don't, then when people are dying or when people who who are are going are are with people who are dying, we kind of exclude them. We sort of push them to the side, and we're like, oh, no. That's very inconvenient. Like, that's something I don't like thinking about. That's something I don't like being exposed to.

这使得死亡变得更加艰难。也让爱一个垂死之人变得更为困难。因此我认为——我只是觉得这很重要，我认为临终者以及关爱临终者的人应当被社会秩序完全接纳。

And that makes it so much harder to die. It makes it so much harder to love someone who's dying. And so I think it's I just think it's important, and I and I think dying people and people who are are loving people who are dying need to be fully embraced by the social order.

而且我们需要记住，我们可以采取行动去修复社会秩序中那些伤害人们、导致人们受苦的部分。是的。这本书里有太多精彩的句子——你们开始阅读时最好带上荧光笔，因为你们会忍不住疯狂标记。这里还有一句与这个理念高度契合的话。

And and we need to remember that we can take agency to fix the parts of the social order that are hurting people, that are causing people to suffer. Yeah. You have this love there's so many good quotes in this book. You guys bring a highlighter when you start reading this because you're just gonna wanna go crazy. But here's another one that I think fits with this idea a lot.

你指出当我们了解苦难、近距离接触它时，我们能够表现出极大的慷慨。你作品的惊人之处在于，你让我们关心那些极其脆弱的生命，却又以某种方式让我们无需遮住眼睛逃避。你促使我们以慷慨和助人之心回应。所以我想请你分享些因这本书而生的慷慨故事——这些剧迷们，这些所谓的"电视战士"们，做出了哪些可能因你这本书才发生的善举？

You note that when we know about suffering, when we are proximal to it, we are capable of great generosity. That is the striking thing about your work is that you make us care about life that's really fragile, but you somehow allow us to do it in a way that doesn't cause us to, like, you know, shield our eyes. You you cause us to react with generosity and helpfulness. And And so I want you to tell some stories of generosity that have come out from this book. You know, what have the fans been able to do, these sort of TV fighters, that maybe wouldn't have happened if you hadn't written this?

许多剧迷正在采取行动。其中一项就是捐款支持结核病慈善机构——虽然我要明确这些缺口只有政府才能填补——但他们仍在竭尽全力弥补力所能及的空白。这本身就是极其慷慨有益的举动。另外，我知道这话你们听多了可能觉得像客套话，我完全理解。

So many TV fighters are taking actions. One of those actions is something like giving money to support TB charities who are trying to fill gaps that I want to be clear cannot be filled by anything but governments, but are desperately trying to fill whatever gaps they can. And that is itself a tremendously generous and helpful action. Also, and I know this I know you hear this all the time, and it sounds like pitter patter. I totally understand.

但像结核病抗争者们，他们定期组织电话轰炸和邮件轰炸活动来联系他们的代表。这很重要。前几天我和华盛顿的人交谈时，有人说，‘我最近接到很多关于结核病的电话’，我说，‘很好’。

But people like, TB fighters regularly organize call a thons and and email a thons to reach out to their representatives. And that matters. When I talk to people in Washington, I talked to someone a couple days ago who was like, I have been getting a lot of calls about tuberculosis, and I'm like, good.

好奇这些电话

Wonder where

是从哪儿来的

I'm coming

是啊。

from. Yeah.

我希望你也接到很多关于其他问题的电话，比如疟疾、艾滋病、糖尿病和心脏病这些不公之症。所以我真心觉得这很重要，他们让我深受鼓舞。他们真的引领着我。他们会组织电话轰炸，我就会想，‘天啊’

I hope you're getting a lot of calls about other things as well. I hope you're getting a lot of calls about diseases of injustice like malaria and HIV and diabetes and heart disease. And so I really think that matters, and and I am so inspired by them. They really they really lead me. They'll have a call a thon, and I'll be like, oh, god.

好吧，那我就给托德·杨打个电话。托德·杨是我的参议员，他坚信全球健康事业，一直是全球健康的强力支持者，也是《NTB Now法案》的提案人之一。但我现在需要他在支持全球健康方面更加公开表态。所以我直接打电话给他，让他知道这一点。

Alright. I'll call Todd Young. And Todd Young is a is a senator of mine who is a big believer in global health, has been a big supporter of global health, was was one of the sponsors of the NTB Now Act. But I I I right now need him to be more more public in his support of global health. And so I just, call him, you know, and I let him know that.

速比涛。速比涛。

Speedo. Speedo.

速比涛。

Speedo.

你提到这一点让我特别高兴的原因之一——现在我要开始沉迷于幸福科学了——是有大量证据表明，提升希望感最有效的方法之一就是从一件小事着手掌握主动权。比如当你快速拨号给参议员或为抗击结核病采取行动时，这不仅是在为世界做好事，更会改变你的心理状态。你会觉得：哦，原来我有办法在这些事情上采取行动。这就像一种奇妙的螺旋循环——当我们以充满希望的方式行动时，我们实际上会变得更加充满希望。

One of the reasons I'm so glad you bring this up, this is, like, me nerding about happiness science now, is that there's lots of evidence that one of the best things you can do to increase hope is to actually take agency about something small. Like, when you when you make that speed dial call to your senator and you or you do something to fight TB, it doesn't just, like, do good in the world. It actually changes your psychology. You kinda feel like, oh, I there are ways to take action on these things. Like, it's a funny kind of, like, spiral loop that when we act in ways that are hopeful, we actually become more hopeful.

所以我认为你通过两种方式提升希望感：一是通过叙事本身，二是通过促使人们行动起来。

And so I think that you're increasing hope in a couple ways. One, just through the narrative, but second, just through getting people to get off their butt and do stuff.

没错。人们会感觉更好。但行动起来真的很难，尤其是现在——绝望的诱惑如此强烈，对许多人来说四面八方都充斥着恐怖，以至于根本不知道该回应什么、从哪里着手。不过在某种程度上...你之前问我为什么选择结核病。

Yeah. They feel better. And it's really hard to get off your butt and do stuff. Especially right now, like the temptation to despair is so overwhelming and the sort of the horrors abound in so many directions for a lot of people that it's really difficult to even know where or what to respond to, where or what to take action. But those on some level, you asked me earlier why I picked TB.

某种程度上说，因为我必须选一个。明白吗？世界上有太多问题，我本可以选择其他任何一个。懂吧？

And on some level, because I had to pick something. You know? There's a lot of problems. I could have picked one of the other ones. Know?

我本可以选择气候变化，可以选择疟疾——问题是无穷无尽的。但我指望你们大家来解决其中一些问题。

I could have picked climate change. I could have picked malaria. I mean, there's an endless number of problems. Right? But I'm counting on y'all to solve some of those problems.

而你们指望我来对付结核病。这样齐心协力，才有希望创造更美好的世界。

And then you count on me to try to deal with TB. And then together, hopefully, make a better world.

所以我要继续沉迷于这本书里的更多引文，因为我在阅读时荧光笔没墨了，所以我打算再分享一些。这段内容正好与我们刚才讨论的话题相关，即当你采取行动时，就能战胜绝望。你指出纯粹的绝望永远无法讲述完整的人类故事，尽管绝望总想让我们相信相反。这让我感到非常安慰，因为它暗示约翰也对所有这些可怕的事情感到绝望。我是说，这就是社区的意义。

So I'm gonna just nerd out about more quotes in this book because my highlighter died when I was reading it, and so I'm just gonna give you more. This one is related to just what we were just talking about, this idea that, like, when you act, you can overcome your despair. You note that mere despair never tells the whole human story as much as despair would like to insist otherwise. And this was very comforting for me because it suggested that John too experiences despair about all this horrible stuff. He I mean, that's like community.

对吧？我们刚刚还在讨论为什么这一点如此重要。但你能够以真正展现人类故事的方式面对这些绝望时刻。所以我特别好奇，在这本书中，尤其是亨利的故事里，你是如何尝试编织这一点的？因为你直接把绝望抛了出来。

Right? We were just talking about why this is so important. But you're able to approach these moments of despair in ways that truly show the human story. And so I'm wondering with this book in particular and with Henry's story in particular, like, how did you try to weave that in? Because you're, like, throwing the despair out there.

你用了什么样的文学魔法，让我们能够翻转开关，转向喜悦和希望等等？

What kind of, like, literary magic do you use to get us to, like, flip the switch and go towards joy and hope and so on?

嗯，我试图描绘那条弧线。对吧？从绝望到希望的弧线。在某种程度上，那是我许多书中都有的弧线。在《人类世评论》中我也试图描绘这条弧线，从深深的绝望、恐惧、以及早上找不到起床理由的状态，到一个充满希望的地方。

Well, I tried to draw that arc. Right? The the arc from despair to hope. On some level, that's the arc of lots of my books. It's the arc I tried to draw in the Anthropocene Review too from, you know, going from a place of profound hopelessness and and and and fear and and a feeling that there was no reason to get out of bed in the morning to a place of hope.

有些单独的论文尝试描绘这条弧线，但整本书本身也在尝试描绘它。我也想在这本书中描绘这条弧线，因为尽管危机的规模令人窒息，而这只是众多危机中的一个，对吧？比如肺结核只是众多疾病中的一种。健康只是众多议题中的一个。即便如此，我仍然认为有理由怀抱希望。

There's individual essays that try to draw that arc, but the book itself also tries to draw that arc. And I wanted to draw that arc in this book too, because even though the size of the crisis is overwhelming, and this is just one crisis among many, right? Like tuberculosis is just one disease among many. Health is just one issue among many. Even so, I still think that there is cause for hope.

我仍然认为希望存在。不是因为情况会在明年好转，而是因为我们必须为之奋斗，防止它们变得更糟。每一个本可能死于肺结核却没有死的人，对我们来说都是一次成功。不幸的是，由于其他政府——主要是我国政府——过去做出的决定，死于肺结核的人数将会上升。我的工作就是尽我所能，通过立法、司法分支等各种途径，在这条路上与之抗争。

I still think that there is reason for hope. Not because things are going to get better in the next year, but because like we have to fight for them to get less worse. Every person who doesn't die of tuberculosis is who would otherwise die is a success for us. And unfortunately, the number of people who are going to die of tuberculosis is going to go up because of extent decisions made by other governments, but mostly decisions made by my government. My job is to try to fight that every way I can all along that journey, whether that's legislatively, whether that's through the judicial branch, however that is, to fight that every way I can.

我认为你还有一种方式做得特别好，这也是我非常感激你的工作的地方，就是你经常用敬畏感、惊奇感来对抗那些糟糕的事情。

Another way I think you fight it really well, and this is something that I'm so grateful for your work for, is you often fight the sucky stuff with awe, the sense of wonder.

是啊，惊叹这种情绪被严重低估了，老兄。

Yeah. Wonder is underrated, man.

天啊。这简直...天啊。千万别让我开始讲幸福科学。这是最容易被我们忽视的积极情绪之一，比如身边人的善举，或是那些极客科学——只要看看Blog Brothers网站，你肯定能感受到震撼。但我们没意识到这是多么强大的情感。

Oh my gosh. There's like a oh my gosh. Don't even get me started in a happiness science. It's like one of the positive emotions that is so easily available to us, like literally in the people around us and the good things they're doing or in, like, nerdy science, like just go on Blog Brothers and you'll see some awe for sure. But we don't realize it's such a powerful emotion.

所以我想问你个关于震撼的问题。在你讲述的整个电视故事里，哪个瞬间让你感受到最强烈的惊奇与震撼？

And so I wanted to ask you an awe question. In the whole TV story that you've told, what was the moment where you found the most wonder, the most awe in thinking about this story?

有个历史性时刻，我们人类突然意识到这不是遗传病，而是由细菌引起的疾病。当时罗伯特·科赫在科学会议上宣读论文，整个会场突然鸦雀无声。有位听众说'我认为那晚是我科学生涯中最重大的时刻'。就在那一刻我们明白：这不是遗传病，而是传染病——这意味着我们需要用完全不同的方式来认知、理解和对抗它。

There's a there's a moment where we, as a species, figured out that this wasn't an inherited disease, that this was a disease caused by a bacterium. And I was reading about this moment where Robert Koch is literally giving, like reading a paper at a scientific conference, and the audience just falls completely quiet. And one member of the audience said, I hold that evening to be the most significant moment of my scientific life. And that moment when we realized, Okay, this isn't an inherited condition. This is an infectious condition, which means that we need to be imagining it and understanding it and fighting it very differently.

从被动接受到主动寻求对抗方法，这是人类历史上的重大转折。这确实是令人震撼的时刻，因为这是无数代人努力理解世界的巅峰，是不断改进显微镜观察微生物的终极成果——最终我们发现了那些扭动的小杆状菌，正是它们导致了肺结核。

Not just accepting it, but trying to try to find ways to fight it is a huge moment in human history. And it really is a moment of of awe because it was the culmination of so many generations of people trying to understand the world around them. The culmination of people trying to develop microscopes to see smaller and smaller creatures. And eventually, we see these wiggling rods that we discover cause tuberculosis.

这故事太美妙了，既有那种极客式的科学震撼——天啊我们居然发现了微生物！同时也展现了人类攻克难题的过程。你讲述的科学家故事也充满人性光辉。

I mean, it's such a beautiful story because it's it's like sciency nerdy science awe. Like, oh my god. We figured I was a microbe. But it was also a story of people, like, tackling these interesting problems. Like, you tell such great human stories about the scientists too.

没错。就像要证明传染链的存在——对豚鼠来说确实是坏消息——但怎么证明呢？如何确认这些扭动的小杆菌就是病原体，而非巧合或病症的副产品？

Yeah. Just like trying to figure out, like, how do you actually prove a chain of transmission. Bad news for, guinea pigs for sure. But how do you prove a chain of transmission? How do you prove that that this little wiggly rod is actually what's causing the illness, not like just some coincidence or some byproduct of the illness?

那确实是个非常棘手的问题。而罗伯特·科赫对此提出了一个绝妙的解决方案。虽然后来他造成了巨大的伤害。这也是科学故事的一部分——在追求科学理解的过程中，我们可能会造成很多伤害，尤其是当我们不够谨慎时。而他在推广自认为能解决结核病的方案时，就未能足够谨慎。

That's a really difficult problem. And Robert Coke had a brilliant solution for it. Now later he would go on to cause tremendous harm. And that's also part of the scientific story is that in the pursuit of scientific understanding, we can cause a lot of harm, especially if we're not careful. And he wasn't adequately careful when it came to promoting what he believed was a solution to tuberculosis.

但这个发现的瞬间始终让我难以忘怀，因为它不仅仅关乎他个人。这是成千上万为该领域做出贡献的人们共同的成果。虽然他获得了所有荣誉，但请想想那些为罗伯特·科赫探明正确道路而走过弯路的人们，那些编辑他阅读的医学期刊的人们，那些与结核病共存并寻求治疗和理解的患者们，以及所有研究结核病的医生们。

But that moment of discovery has always stuck with me because it's just so because it wasn't just about him. It was about thousands of people who'd contributed to that field. And so he gets all the credit, but think about all the people who had to follow down the wrong paths in order for Robert Koch to understand what the right path was. Think about the people who were editing the medical journals that Robert Koch read. Think about the people who were living with tuberculosis, who were pursuing their own treatments and understandings of the disease, all the doctors who were working on tuberculosis.

这实际上是数百万人协作才达成的关键时刻。

This was really a collaboration of millions of people that led to this moment.

现在是休息时间，稍后我们将继续聆听约翰·格林关于'糟糕'、'了不起'以及结核病终结的见解。良好的沟通对生活至关重要，无论是个人还是职业层面。我朋友马特·亚伯拉罕的播客《快速思考，聪明说话》能帮助你提升这方面能力。每周马特都会与包括我在内的专家对话，分享基于研究的实用技巧，比如如何深入对话、成为更好的倾听者，以及如何在冲突中清晰表达。本月节目还推出了与科技工具创造者的迷你系列，探讨如何用这些工具改善职业沟通与生活。

It's time for a break, but we'll be back soon with more of John Green and his thoughts on suck, awesome, and the end of tuberculosis. Good communication is essential in life, both personally and professionally. And my friend, Matt Abraham's podcast, think fast, talk smart, can help you do better with that. Each week, Matt sits down with experts, including me, to share practical research backed tips to help you learn things like how to connect deeply in conversation, how to be a better listener, and how to communicate clearly through conflict. And this month, think fast, talk smart features a mini series with tech tool creators on how to use their tools to improve your professional communication and your life.

如果你想提升沟通能力，每周二可在任意播客平台收听，并在fastersmarter.io获取更多提升沟通技巧的内容。

So if you're ready to level up your communication game, listen every Tuesday wherever you get podcasts and find additional content to level up your communication at fastersmarter.io.

这本书和你其他作品中反复出现的另一个主题是：即使在面对可怕处境时，也能发现那些微小的快乐时刻。这本书最棒的一点就是你能读到亨利许多这样的微小喜悦时刻。我很好奇，在这个虽非最糟但确实艰难的时期，你是从哪里获得这些微小喜悦的？

Another theme that comes up in this book and in lots of your books is that even when you're facing these terrible situations, you can find these moments of, like, small joy. And it was one of the best things about the book is that you'll hear many of Henry's moments of small joy. I'm curious where you're getting your small moments of joy in this, not the worst of circumstances, but in a difficult time right now.

人类总是很有趣。真的，人就是很有趣。濒死的人很有趣，受苦的人很有趣。怎么说呢，人类本身就充满趣味性。

People are always funny. Like, people are funny. Dying people are funny. People are funny when they're suffering. Like, people are funny.

人们总是很有趣。这就是我最喜欢人类的地方，比如，我钟爱那种面对绝境的黑色幽默。我喜欢那种深夜时分一切都糟透了，于是我们拿它开玩笑的幽默感。我觉得我在其中找到了快乐。

People are always funny. This is my favorite thing about us is, like, I love some gallows humor. I love some, like, late night everything is terrible. Let's make a joke about it humor. And I just think I I I find joy in that.

我在人际联结中找到快乐。在与各位共同从事这项工作中找到快乐。对我来说，这让我想起保罗说过的话——这样不是很棒吗？尽管我们面对着世界上最大的难题：医疗资源不平等，殖民主义遗留的可怕创伤。

I find joy in human connection. I find joy in getting to do this work together with y'all. Like, to me, it it remind it go I goes back to what Paul said. Like, isn't this fun? You know, despite everything, despite the fact that we're trying to tackle the world's biggest problems and health care inequity and the legacies, the horrific legacies of colonialism.

能够共同参与这项工作确实令人深感满足。因此我从中获得许多快乐。或者用个不太准确的词——我在抵抗中找到了快乐。

This this this being able to be in this work together is really very quite fulfilling. And so I find a lot of a lot of joy in that. I find joy for lack of a better term in resistance.

我也很赞同关于幽默的观点，虽然这是本约翰·格鲁比的书，但说实话我真没想到一本关于肺结核的书里会有这么多幽默元素。

I love the humor point too because I had to say, even though it was a John Grubby book, I really didn't think there was gonna be a lot of humor in a book about tuberculosis.

我硬塞了几个笑话进去。

I squeezed a couple jokes in.

确实存在，我发现了。但这很难做到，就像...又是个书呆子式的文学问题对吧？

You know, it's there. It's there. I found it. But that's hard, like, again, a kind of just nerdy literary question. Right?

你是如何在这样一个充满苦难的悲惨故事中巧妙融入幽默的？

Like, how do you find ways to weave the humor into such a terrible story of suffering?

嗯，我是说，我想说的是，亨利是个非常有趣的人，他经历了很多苦难。我也经历过一些，但仍然很幽默。我也不知道。谢谢，谢谢你们这完全不应得的掌声。是的。

Well, I mean, I would just say that, like, Henry is a very funny person who suffered a lot. I have suffered some and yet am hilarious. I don't know. Thank thank you for that thoroughly unearned applause. Yeah.

就像，你知道的，生活本身就很有趣。贺拉斯在两千一百年前说过，诗歌应该寓教于乐。教导容易，取悦很难。尤其在教导的同时取悦他人更是难上加难。

Like, every you know, life is funny. Books Horace said twenty one hundred years ago that poetry should instruct and delight. It's easy to instruct. It's hard to delight. It's especially hard to delight when you're instructing.

我确实希望这本书至少能有令人愉悦的时刻。因为阅读应该是件愉快的事，不该感觉像工作，也不该觉得‘哦，我有义务读完’。它应该像一种联结，一个与故事、与作者相遇并共同创造些什么的机会。

And I did want this to be a book that at least had moments of delight. Because reading a book should be pleasurable. It shouldn't feel like work. It shouldn't feel like, oh, I've got this obligation. It should feel like a connection, a chance to you know, connect with a story and connect with an author and kind of co create something together.

很遗憾我们时间所剩无几，因为和约翰同台的这一小时简直是我人生中最酷的时刻。但我们不会以我的提问结束。开场时忘了告诉大家的是，我们将听取你们的提问。大家预先提交的问题中，我和约翰团队挑选了最精彩的部分，接下来会进行回答。但这是我的最后一个问题了。

So we're tragically running out of time because this is like the coolest hour of my life to be up here with John. And but we're not gonna end on my questions. Different thing I forgot to tell you at the top of the show was that we're gonna hear from you. You all have submitted questions in advance, and I and John's folks have picked some of the best ones, and we're gonna go through those. But this is gonna be my last question.

所以我想用最书呆子战士的方式结束——别忘了保持精彩。来吧各位！如你所知，这是个问题。当我们面对沉重话题，当世界仿佛分崩离析时，很容易忘记保持精彩。

And so I wanted to end in the most nerdfighter way possible. I wanna not forget to be awesome. Come on. You've got folks, This is a problem, as you know. It can be easy to forget to be awesome when we're tackling hard topics, when it feels like the world is falling apart.

我很好奇，最近你是如何拥抱精彩的？

I'm curious, how are you embracing awesome these days?

我们常说减少世界糟粕，也谈论增加世界精彩。我认为两者都很重要。提升全球整体的精彩水平很关键。知道我最近在做什么吗？虽然听起来有点荒唐——

Well, we talk about decreasing world suck, and we talk about increasing world awesome. And I think they're both important. I think it's important to try to increase the overall worldwide level of awesome. You know what I've been doing recently? And this is ludicrous.

我最近在玩一款叫FIFA的电子游戏。这是一款足球游戏，我在游戏里操控现实中我赞助的球队，这样就能看到他们的短裤后面印着我的logo。在游戏里看到自己公司的标志出现在球员短裤上，这给我带来了极大的快乐。更荒谬的是，人们居然付费观看我玩这个——其实我水平很烂。

I've been playing this video game called FIFA. It's a soccer video game, and I play as the team I sponsor in real life so that I can so that I can see my logo on the back of their shorts. It brings me great joy to see my own logo on the back of their shorts inside a video game. And then people pay me to watch this ridiculousness. I'm not good at this game.

昨天我做体育播客时，有个家伙对我说：'你FIFA玩得真菜'。我回答：'谢谢夸奖，我知道。'关键人们还为此付钱给我，然后我用这些钱为现实中的足球队买了个真实球员。

I actually I did a sports podcast yesterday, and this guy was talking to me about it. And he said, you're really trash at FIFA. And I was like, thank you. I know. And and people pay me for this, and then I use the money to buy a real life player for my soccer team.

别为这种蠢事鼓掌。这完全是资源浪费，但我这么做是因为它带给我快乐。无论是找到喜欢的游戏，还是玩《荒野大镖客2》，总之要找到能让自己开心的小事。

Don't applaud this stupidity. This is a terrible use of resources, but I did it because it brings me a lot of joy. So, yeah, just little things like finding finding a video game you like, playing Red Dead Redemption two, whatever it is, just finding some joy.

说得真好。现在我们进入提问环节，这些问题是...

Love that. So now we're transitioning to your questions. These are the

感谢大家的提问。抱歉我们无法回答所有问题。

Thank you all for your questions. Sorry. We can't answer all of them.

好的。第一个问题来自纽约伯明翰的Olivia Marie。Olivia，你刚坐飞机过来吗？

Okay. First one is from Olivia Marie from Birmingham, New York. Olivia, you just flown around?

你好。

Hi.

好的。这个这个这个？宾汉姆顿的。谢谢。抱歉。

Okay. This this this one? Binghamton's. Thank you. Sorry.

奥利维亚·玛丽的问题。我们知道你现在把很多事情都和肺结核联系起来，因为肺结核无处不在。你能把泰勒·斯威夫特和肺结核联系起来吗？

Olivia Marie's question. We know you now connect a lot of things to tuberculosis because tuberculosis is everything. Can you connect tuberculosis to Taylor Swift?

好的。好的。等一下。我得看看手机。我不想错过...我不想搞错歌词。

Yeah. Yeah. Hold on. I gotta get on my phone. I don't wanna miss the I don't wanna mess up the lyric.

她有一句关于肺结核的歌词。等等。在哪来着？

She's got a lyric about tuberculosis. Hold on. Where is it?

我差点想让你之后唱这句歌词。

I almost want you to sing this lyric afterwards.

我不会唱的。好吧。我找不到具体歌词，但大意是，你知道的，比如去了湖区。你知道那句。诗人们去那里死去的地方。

I'm not going to sing it. Okay. I can't find it, but it's something like, know, like, went to the Lake District. You know the line. Where the poets went to die.

湖区，诗人们去那里死去。你们都听到了吧。我们要不要来一轮

The Lake District, where the poets went to die. Y'all y'all heard that. Should we do a round

让全场观众一起唱？

of singing the whole audience?

那是关于英国浪漫主义诗人全都死于肺结核的故事。千真万确。这并非牵强附会，她也间接写过关于结核病的内容。顺便说声谢谢。

That's about the British romantic poets who all died of tuberculosis. Legitimately, it is. That's not like it's not like a distant connection. Like, she has written indirectly about TB. Thank you, by the way.

我非常感激我的制作搭档罗茜安娜，当我们在后台读到这个问题时，我说我不确定能否做到。安娜立刻转身反问，什么叫你做不到？然后瞬间就写出了我显然写不出的歌词。

I am very grateful to my producing partner, Rosianna, who when we were reading that question backstage and I was like, I don't know if I could do it. Anna spun around. And she was like, what do you mean you can't do it? And immediately produced that lyric in a way that I clearly cannot.

好吧。我们得降低泰勒·斯威夫特的难度，因为这个问题很棘手。来自阿努什里的提问：她提到自己在印度就医时被诊断出脊柱结核，此前多年在美国求医数十次却始终无果。

Okay. We're, like, taking it down from Taylor Swift because this is a tough one. This is from Anushree. She notes Anushree notes, I was diagnosed with spinal TB after years of pain when I visited a doctor in India. I had gone to dozens of doctors in The States to no avail.

哇。

Wow.

鉴于全球旅行的普及，结核病似乎已不再是仅局限于某些国家的疾病。

Given the popularity of global travel, TB no longer seems like a disease that is only localized to certain countries.

确实。

Right.

我们如何鼓励美国医生将结核病，尤其是其罕见形式，视为可能的诊断考虑？

How do we encourage American doctors to consider TB, especially in its rare forms, as a possible diagnosis?

这是个极其重要的问题，非常感谢你的提问。这确实是个大问题。美国每年有一万例活动性结核病例，数字还在上升，未来增幅会更大。然而我们却很少想到结核病。

This is such an important question, and thank you so much for asking it. So this is a huge problem. We have ten thousand cases of active TB in The US. It's going up, and it will go up much more now. And yet we don't think of TB.

医生们常用一个我认为非常美妙的说法——他们说'我们的怀疑指数很低'。'怀疑指数'这个表述不是很精妙吗？我对几乎所有事都保持高度怀疑，但他们对结核病的怀疑指数却很低。

A lot of times doctors, they have a phrase that I think is a very beautiful phrase. They say, we have a low index of suspicion. Isn't index of suspicion a phenomenal phrase? I have a very high index of suspicion with almost everything. But they say they have a low index of suspicion with tuberculosis.

你知道的，就像他们说'听到马蹄声先想马而不是斑马'。我理解这个逻辑，但我们这里结核病并不少见。与我交流过的公共卫生官员始终在努力教育社区的医护工作者，结核病是应该纳入考量的诊断，包括你经历过的骨结核——我知道那疼痛简直难以想象。听患者描述那种痛感时，我都忍不住战栗。真为你曾经历这些感到难过。

You know, they say like, oh, when you hear hoof beats, think horses not zebras. I understand that, but we have quite a lot of TB here. The public health officials that I've talked to are always trying to educate the doctors and nurses in communities that tuberculosis is a diagnosis we should be thinking about, including tuberculosis with bone involvement like you had, which I know can be unbelievably painful. I mean, I've spoken to people who describe that pain to me in ways that just made me shudder. And so I'm so sorry that you had to go through that.

非常庆幸你最终得到了确诊。但你在结核病高发、人们怀疑指数更高的印度而非美国确诊，我并不意外。这确实需要我们与公共卫生部门、医护体系共同努力，提醒他们在接诊时要将结核病纳入考量。

So grateful that you were eventually able to be diagnosed. But it doesn't surprise me that you were ultimately diagnosed in India where there's lots of tuberculosis, where folks have a high index of suspicion, rather than in The United States. But it is something that we need to work on with our public health departments, with doctors and nurses, with our hospital systems to remind them to think of TB when they're hearing from their patients.

如果在美国加强这方面工作，也能让结核病成为更普遍的讨论话题，或许还能促使全球更多人关注这个问题。

It also feels like if we're doing that more in The US, it just turns TB into more of a conversation here, which hopefully can get people to care about it worldwide too.

完全同意。

Absolutely.

好的。这是来自纽约市凯特琳的一个问题。《一切都是结核病》在StoryGraph上有共读活动吗？我们应该创建一个吗？

Alright. Here's one from Caitlin from New York City. Is there a StoryGraph buddy read for Everything's Tuberculosis? Should we create one?

没有，但可以创建。我完全沉浸在——你以为我会怎么说？比如，不，别和大家一起读这本书。那会让我很扫兴。

No and yes. I've been totally in I mean, what did you think I was gonna say? Like, no. Don't read this book in community. It would bum me out.

不，请一定要和大家一起读。太棒了。最好的阅读方式就是交流讨论。我我我娶了一个读书会认识的人。

No. Please read it in community. Incredible. The best way to read is to have conversations. I I I married a person from a book club.

当时我们参加了一个两人读书会。完全没意识到彼此互有好感。还觉得单纯为了共读而组建两人读书会，边喝酒边讨论是再正常不过的事。以为纯粹是柏拉图式的关系。直到有天我突然醒悟：我是不是恋爱了？

It was we were in a two person book club. And we had no idea that we we were interested in each other. We thought it was totally normal to start a two person book club to read books together and then to meet and discuss those books over drinks. We thought that was just a completely platonic thing. And then one day I was like, am I in love?

我们俩都标记了——想听点特别甜的事吗？我们在菲利普·罗斯的书里标记了同一段话：「重要的不是占有这个人，而是房间里有个与你旗鼓相当的对手。」而莎拉始终是那个与我势均力敌的对手。

We both highlighted you wanna hear something really cute? We both highlighted the same passage in a Philip Roth book and the passage was, the thing isn't owning the person, the thing is having another contender in the room with you. And Sarah has always been that contender in the room. That

这简直甜度爆表，没想到今天能在台上听到约翰·格林传授恋爱建议吧。

is the cutest thing ever, and I don't think you thought you were gonna get dating advice from John Green on stage today.

组建两人读书会——这就是我的建议。

Start a two person book club. That's my advice.

我是说，显然，这方法有效。没错，确实有效。而且确保你们互相分享书中标记的重点段落。你们可以用这本好书来做这件事。

I mean, apparently, it works. Yeah. It worked. And make sure you share each other's highlights in the books. You could do it with a really good book here.

不过既然你们开始聊私人话题了，我就直接跳到这个问题。这是来自纽约拉奇巴特的艾伦·斯特恩的提问：为人父母如何改变了你作为作家的身份？

But since you're getting personal, I'll jump to this question. This is one from Ellen Stearns from Larchbart, New York. How has being a parent changed you as a writer?

改变太大了。首先，它让我慢了下来。但不仅如此，它彻底改变了我。如果没有亨利和爱丽丝，我永远写不出《星运里的错》或《无比美妙的痛苦》，因为《星运里的错》这本书，你们知道，成为父母让我理解了关于爱的一个深刻本质——爱比死亡更强大。只要亨利、爱丽丝或我还活着，爱就能超越死亡，我永远是他们的父亲，他们永远是我的孩子。

So much. For one thing, it slowed me down. But no, it's changed it so much. I could never have written The Fault in Our Stars or Turtles All the Way Down without Henry and Alice because with The Fault in Our Stars, you know, having kids helped me to understand this deep fundamental truth about love, which is that love is stronger than death. Love survives death as long as Henry or and Alice or I am alive, I will be their dad and they will be my kids.

所以爱比死亡更强大，理解这一点让我有可能写出《星运里的错》，我认为。在我自己成为父母之前，我从未明白这个道理。至于《无比美妙的痛苦》，他们帮助了我，因为他们让我变得更好。他们每天都在帮助我进步。我

And and so love is stronger than death and understanding that made it possible for me to write The Fault in Our Stars, think. And I never knew that until I was a parent myself. And then with Turtles All the Way Down, they they helped me because they helped me get better. They helped me, they helped me get better every day. I

想接着这个话题追问。你提到了《星运里的错》和《无比美妙的痛苦》，很好奇为人父母如何帮助你创作这本书。你分享过那段情节，说与亨利聊天的契机之一是你们父子同名。

wanna do a follow-up on that one. You mentioned Fault in Our Stars, Turtles All the Way Down. Curious how being a parent helped you with this book. You know, you shared the passage that one of the things that brought you to chat with Henry was that, you know, you shared a name with your son.

是啊，我从没想过这点。但确实如此，亨利。要不是你，《一切如结核病》这本书可能根本不会存在。如果我们当时给你取名阿蒂克斯（我们考虑过这个名字），这些作品可能都不会诞生，伙计。

Yeah. I'd never thought about that. But that's true, Henry. If it weren't for you, there'd probably be no everything as tuberculosis. Or if we'd named you Atticus, we thought about, might not exist, man.

这太奇妙了。生活真是奇妙。

That's so weird. Life is so weird.

再来一个文化相关的问题。这是来自泽西城的莫莉提出的。如果《红磨坊》更贴近现实，克里斯蒂安会不会从萨婷那里感染肺结核？

So here's another cultural one. This one's from Molly from Jersey City. If Moulin Rouge was more realistic, would Christian have caught TB from Satine?

我不确定。不一定吧。我是说，我们忽略了时间跨度。整个故事发生在多久之内？大概五天？

I don't know. Not necessarily. I mean, we forget. Like, how long does that the whole thing take place? Like, five days?

对，整场演出大概两小时。

Like, it's like a two hour show.

是啊。不过很疯狂的是，虽然发生了很多事，但都集中在一场演出的筹备期。也许有六周？我不认为她病情恶化得那么快...这本来就不是对肺结核的写实描绘。

Yeah. It's wild though. Like, a lot like, a lot happens, but, like, it it all takes place over the course of the development of one show. Maybe it's, like, six weeks. I don't she gets sick very it's not a super realistic portrayal of tuberculosis.

影视作品里确实有写实的肺结核描写，但在我看来，《红磨坊》并不属于这类。

There are realistic portrayals of tuberculosis in media, but that is not, in my opinion, really one of them.

那你最喜欢哪部作品的处理方式？

What's what's your favorite?

《荒野大镖客2》，那款电子游戏。它对肺结核的刻画非常真实。

Red Dead Redemption two, the video game. It's, it's very realistic.

好的。我只需要代入布鲁克林的康纳视角。不知道你是否在听，但你确实提出了一个关于《荒野大镖客2》的问题。我要读一下康纳的笔记：我对肺结核的大部分认知都来自电子游戏《恶灵附身》。

Okay. I just have to channel Connor from Brooklyn. I don't know if you're sitting here listening to this, but you actually wrote a question about Red Dead Redemption two. So I'm gonna read read that one. Connor's notes, most of what I know about tuberculosis comes from the video game Residence.

没错。肖，我想知道你是否玩过那款游戏？如果玩过，你觉得它对逝者的刻画如何？

Correct. I was wondering if you've ever played that game, Shaw. If so, what do you think about his portrayal of the deceased?

我觉得很棒。我认为制作组做得非常好。主角是逐渐病重的——给没玩过的人预警下剧透，不过也不算太剧透。这游戏真的很有趣。

I thought it was great. I thought I did a great job. He he gets sick slowly over time. This is a spoiler for anybody who hasn't played this video game, but not that much of a spoiler. It's a fun and it's a really fun video game.

游戏里你得杀很多人。有次我试图和儿子一起玩，就问能不能少杀点人？比如通过谈判解决？但每次都会直接演变成暴力冲突。你永远没法说'听着，你把钱分我们一半留一半不是更好吗？'不过毕竟是亡命之徒的设定，可能这就是游戏的一部分吧。

You have to kill a lot of people, which like, I was trying to play with my son, I was like, is there a way for us not to kill so many people? Like, can we just sort of negotiate? Seemed to, like, go straight to violence every time. You can't ever have a conversation where you're like, listen, wouldn't this be better if you just gave us half the money and kept the other half? But you're an outlaw, so I guess it's part of it.

但这游戏画面非常精美，引人入胜令人沉醉。而且我觉得对结核病的刻画相当到位。

But it's a beautiful video game. It's just like very visually beautiful, very engaging, and engrossing. And I thought the portrayal of TV was quite good.

还有其他游戏刻画过结核病吗？

Are there other video games that have portrayed TV?

我只玩《FIFA》和《荒野大镖客2》。

I only play FIFA and Red Dead Redemption two.

好的。现在我们要讨论一个棘手的问题，因为你总是提出这些难题，不过我想约翰能应对。你在许多作品中，尤其是《星运里的错》，探讨了疾病以及它如何以不同方式影响我们与世界、与他人的关系。自从汉克被诊断出癌症后，你个人与疾病的关系发生了怎样的变化？

Okay. Now we're gonna get to a tough one because you're bringing the tough ones, so I think John can take it. Your work in so many of your books, especially Fault in Our Stars, explores illness and the different ways it impacts our relationships with the world and with each other. How has your own personal relationship with illness changed since Hank's cancer diagnosis?

是的。这是个有趣的问题。我想这种变化可能以我尚未完全理解的方式发生着。感觉就像汉克刚刚患上癌症一样。虽然我知道那已经是一年半前的事了，但...

Yeah. It's an interesting question. I mean, I think it probably has changed in ways that I haven't totally settled on yet. Like, it feels like Hank just had cancer. And I know it was a year and a half ago, but

你是说，我相信所有粉丝都...

Can you mean, I'm sure all the fans

哦对，提醒下在场的传染病医生们。我总忘记他们的存在。他们就在那儿。我兄弟得过癌症。

Oh, yeah. Just for the infectious disease doctors in the room. I keep forgetting about them. They're there. My brother had cancer.

这个笑点有点怪。不，我开玩笑的，笑这个没关系。我兄弟大约两年前患上了霍奇金淋巴瘤，但有三周时间我们都不知道具体是什么癌症。

Weird thing to laugh at. No, I'm just kidding. It's fine to laugh at it. My brother had cancer a few two two years ago. He had Hodgkin lymphoma, but we didn't know what kind of cancer he had for about three weeks.

那是我生命中最恐怖的三周。我们担心可能是其他部位的转移癌，或是更严重的淋巴瘤类型。最终确诊是这种高度可治愈的癌症。值得注意的是，从没人说过'治疗你的癌症是否划算'这种话——尽管治愈汉克的癌症花费比治愈亨利的结核病高出150倍。从没人提这个，没人考虑这个，这根本不成问题。

And that was the scariest three weeks of my life. We thought it might be a metastasis from another site or another kind of lymphoma that was much more serious. And in the end he had this very treatable, very curable form of cancer. And it's worth noting that nobody ever said, I'm not sure if treating your cancer is cost effective, even though it cost 150 times more to cure Hank's cancer than it would have cost to cure Henry's TB. Nobody ever said that, nobody thought about that, it never came up, it was never a discussion.

汉克得到了我们任何人都会期待、也都应享有的个性化定制治疗。正因如此，他活了下来，如今健康状态良好。这件事确实改变了我对疾病的认知——它总在提醒我们病魔往往来得突然。E...

Hank got the kind of personalized tailored treatment that any of us would expect and that all of us deserve. And as a result, he survived and he's healthy today and doing great. And, you know, it has changed the way I think about illness. It's just a reminder that illness often comes quickly. What does E.

E·卡明斯说过什么？春天就像一只或许的手，小心翼翼地不知从何处伸来。那种事物悄然降临的感觉既美妙又令人畏惧。这段经历对我们全家来说确实非常艰难。

E. Cummings say? Spring is like a perhaps hand coming carefully out of nowhere. And that feeling of something coming carefully out of nowhere can be wondrous and also terrifying. And it was it was a really hard thing for our family to go through.

但汉克在整个过程中得到了很好的支持，不仅来自我们，还有这个社区的许多人——如果我情绪激动请见谅——这些人的支持对他渡过难关起到了巨大作用。

But Hank was was very well supported throughout, not just by us, but also by so many people in I'm ontologize if I get emotional, but by so many people in this community. It made a huge difference for his ability to get through that.

我想这正体现了社区力量的神奇之处，那种你意想不到的慷慨与关怀的力量。我相信在场观众对汉克的祝福，以及那些陪伴乔纳度过这段时光的人，或许都没意识到自己的举动对他们父子产生了多大影响。

I mean, I think it just speaks to the power of community in ways that you don't even expect to the power of generosity and reaching out. I'm sure those of you who were in the audience and said good things about Hank helped Jonah hang out during this time. You probably didn't maybe realize how much it was affecting both of them.

是啊。你们可能不知道自己的留言和关心有多重要，各种形式的小礼物也是如此。但真的意义重大，那种感动难以言表。记得汉克说要公开病情时，我还劝阻说没必要谈论这个。

Yeah. I think you probably didn't know how much your comments mattered and how much your outreach mattered and little gifts of all forms. But it really did matter, you know. It was really overwhelming. Remember when Hank told me that he was gonna I was like, don't talk about it.

我说你不必勉强自己说这些。但他回答：我想说出来。后来他给我发短信保证视频点击量能进前十——他知道会获得大量关注，事实也确实如此。

Just, you know, you don't have to talk about it. Don't feel like you have to talk about it. And he was like, I think I want to. And, then he texted me guaranteed one out of 10 video. Meant that he knew he was gonna get a lot of views, which he did.

但这提醒我们，即使在黑暗中也能保持幽默。对我而言这就是绝佳的例证：在困境中寻找笑点，因为我们始终是完整的人类。重病不会剥夺你的人性，这点至关重要。他现在恢复得很好，这段经历彻底改变了我对疾病乃至整个世界的认知。

That's a reminder though that, like, even amid darkness, we can be very funny. Like, that's a great example to me of, like, being funny amid everything, Like, finding ways to still be because we're still fully human. You don't stop being a person when you get really sick. That's really important to understand. So, yeah, he's doing great, it has definitely changed the way I think, not just about illness, but about everything.

这让我们意识到万物皆脆弱。明白吗？我们都只是短暂停留。

It's just a reminder of the precarity of all things. Know? We're only here for a little while.

这也是书中一个重要的主题。你提到过，从来没有人问过汉克的癌症治疗是否划算。这让我想到最后一个关于幸福的问题，书中确实有很多让人愤怒、恼火的内容。我们该如何恰当地引导这种情绪？

It was also really a theme in the book. You know, you mentioned no one ever asked if Hank's cancer treatment was cost effective. It leaves me kind of a final sort of happiness question, which is like, there's a lot in this book to get angry about, to get pissed off about. How do we channel that appropriately?

我认为我们必须像你之前说的那样，将情绪转化为社区行动，共同努力让这个世界变得不那么糟糕。

I think we have to channel, like you said earlier, into action in community, into working together to try to make the world suck less.

我想归根结底就是减少糟糕，增加美好。这是观众提出的最后一个问题，挺有意思的。回到我们在纽约这件事上，我觉得主办方真的很想选一个非常纽约式的问题作为约翰的最后一个问题。

It all goes back to less suck, more awesome, I think. Here's the last question I have from the audience. And it's funny. It's going back to us being here in New York. I think the organizers really want to pick a, like, very New York y question as John's last question.

但实际上这是来自俄克拉荷马州塔尔萨的阿拉娜·哈里斯提出的问题。哇哦。纽约

But it's actually a question from Alana Harris, who's from Tulsa, Oklahoma. Wow. New

。她谢谢你大老远赶来。

York. She Thanks for coming all this way.

她善意地指出塔尔萨是俄克拉荷马州的首府（括号注明）。所以我们今天又学到了一些

She kindly points out Tulsa, Oklahoma, parentheses, the capital of Oklahoma. So we're we're learning some stuff

新知识。今天。确实如此。大家都知道这个。

stuff from for you today. Today. It is. Everybody knows that.

以下是阿兰娜的话。她说，嗨，约翰。你曾以年轻艺术家的身份在纽约市生活过一段时间。在那段人生阶段里，你是否有最喜爱的地方或收到过最受用的建议？或者对于新一代为艺术事业搬到纽约的人，你有什么后见之明可以分享吗？

Here's what Alana says. She says, hi, John. You spent some time living as a young artist you spent some time as a young artist living in New York City. Do you have a favorite place a favorite piece of advice you received during that season of your life, and or do you have any hindsight to offer to the new generation moving to New York City for careers in the arts?

找个室友吧。或许五个。不，我认为那时我得到的最好建议其实来自我的编辑朱莉·斯特劳斯·盖布尔，她就在现场。她担任我的编辑已有二十二年，从《寻找阿拉斯加》出版前两年就开始了。

Get a roommate. Maybe five. No. I think the best piece of advice I received during that time actually came from my editor, Julie Strauss Gable, who's here. Who's been my editor for twenty two years, since two years before Looking for Alaska was published.

当我住在这里时，我正在写《纸镇》，我记得朱莉对我说，你已经29岁了，不能再像只被车灯照懵的小鹿那样行事。这真是金玉良言，因为我的行为还像22岁似的。懂吗？就像我什么都不懂。

And when I was living here, I was writing Paper Towns, and I remember Julie said to me, you're 29. You can't act like a little deer in headlights anymore. That was really good advice because I was still acting like I was 22. You know? Like, I don't know anything.

我只是个小男孩。明白吗？我只是想在世上找到自己的路。这是我想起的一件事。另一件浮现在脑海的事是关于今晚在场的另一位朋友，伟大作家莫琳·约翰逊。

I'm just a little boy. You know? I'm just trying to make my way in the world. And, that's one thing that comes to mind. The other thing that comes to mind is another friend who's here tonight, Maureen Johnson, the great writer.

当时我和莫琳·约翰逊同时在写书。她在写《甜蜜斯嘉丽》，我在写《纸镇》。我们隔着桌子相对而坐，我当时在哭。她说，听着，你不必感同身受他们所有的情绪。

I was writing a book with Maureen Johnson. She was writing Sweet Scarlet. I was writing Paper Towns. We're sitting across the table from each other, and I was crying. She said, you know, you don't have to feel everything that they feel.

这真是至理名言。

It's really good advice.

没错。好的，这是我们最后一个问题。我想以另一种已知能提升幸福感的事物作结——感恩。我会尽量控制住眼泪。但是，约翰，感谢你让我了解到努萨克这个我此前一无所知却感到无比新奇、离奇地充满希望的存在。

Right. Well, that was our last question. I wanna end with another thing we know boost happiness, which is gratitude. I'm gonna do this without trying to cry. But, John, thank you for bringing to light Nusak that I didn't know about but found incredibly curious and incredibly hopeful, oddly.

感谢你在我最需要的时刻给予我希望。也感谢你的好奇心、勇气、善良以及你所有的书籍。请继续创作。非常感谢。

Thanks for giving me hope, in moments where I really needed it. And thanks for your curiosity, your courage, your kindness, and all your books. Keep them coming. Thank you so much.

各位，这位是洛里·桑托斯博士。再给沃瑞博士一次掌声。好的，我忘了那边还有个麦克风。

Doctor. Lori Santos, everybody. One more time for doctor Worry. Okay. I forgot I have a mic over there.

没关系。我们今晚的相聚即将结束，但如果你觉得我们更像是接近某种更广义上的终结，我也不怪你。或许你和我近来偶尔的感受一样——这个世界正在一点点走向末日。神学家提莫西·查拉梅最近指出，社会崩溃的气息弥漫在空气中。他确实这么说过。

It's okay. So, we're nearing the end of our time together tonight, but I don't blame you if you feel like we're also like, nearing the end of our, time. In a more general sense, you may feel as I, sometimes do of late that the world is a little bit ending. Societal collapse is in the air noted theologian Timothy Chalamet recently. He really said that.

他如此俊美又如此精辟。我们知道世界终将消亡——对我们每个人、全人类、乃至地球都是如此。但不是今天，还不是。我的朋友亨利钟爱'鼓舞'与'挫败'这两个动词。而此刻，我坦言自己深感挫败。

He's so beautiful and he's so pithy. We know that the world will end. It will end for each of us, for all of us, for our planet, but not today, not yet. My friend Henry loves the verbs encourage and discourage. And right now, I confess that I am very discouraged.

我感觉勇气正被各种力量拖垮，尤其是那些主张或表现得仿佛某些人的生命比他人更有价值的人。当希望似乎得不到回报或正当时，我们该如何满怀希望地回应？当这么多权力机构似乎致力于制造更糟的世界时，我们如何想象更美好的世界？如我之前提到的，最新估算表明，削减所有美国相关结核病资金将导致每年新增三百万结核病例。很容易觉得这就是历史的终结——你有这种感觉我也不怪你。

I feel that my courage is being dragged down by all sorts of forces, especially by those who argue or act as if some human lives are more valuable than others. How can we respond hopefully to a moment where hope does not feel rewarded or justified? How can we imagine better worlds when so many power structures seem intent upon making worse ones? I mean, one recent estimate holds that as I mentioned earlier, cutting all US related tuberculosis funding will result in three million more cases of TB every year. It's easy to feel that this is the end of history and I don't blame you if you feel it.

我们这个时代弥漫着恐惧，普遍感觉恐怖已经降临而更糟的还在后头。我也有同感。我们到底为何存在？只为受苦吗？只为忧虑吗？有时确实如此。

There's a dread about our historical moment, a general feeling that horror is here and worse is coming and I feel that too. I mean, why are we even here? Just to suffer? Just to worry? Sometimes it feels that way.

但我认为我们尚处'未完成时'。我们存在是为了最深层次地彼此相伴，帮助他人减轻孤独，也让自己获得慰藉。我相信我们是为共同经历人性的喜悦与磨难、奇迹与脆弱而存在。我们并非活在历史的终结，而是历史的进程中。

But I think we are in this not yet. We are here to be with each other in the deepest sense to help others feel less alone and to allow ourselves to help us feel less alone. I believe we are here to accompany each other through the joys and travails of humanness through the wonder and the precarity. We do not live at the end of history. We live in the middle of history.

我在书中提出，我们既是历史的产物，同时也是推动历史的力量，携手共进便能改写我们共同故事的轨迹。我见证过这样的改变。我高中毕业那年，有1200万五岁以下儿童夭折，而去年的数字已降至不足500万。这一进步并非自然或必然发生，而是因为数百万人（若算上所有为此纳税的公民则达数十亿）共同努力，让世界对儿童更安全。

I argue in the book that we're products of history, but we are also ourselves historical forces and together we can change the arc of our shared story. I've seen that happen. The year I graduated from high school, twelve million children died under the age of five, and last year fewer than five million did. That progress wasn't natural or inevitable. It happened because millions of people, billions if you count all the taxpayers who contributed to it, worked together to make the world safer for children.

这正是我的希望所在。我知道今天仿佛像是故事的终章，因为这是我们迄今生活的最后一天。但今天并非结局，而是故事的中段——我们肩负着为美好结局而战的责任。我朋友艾米·克罗斯·罗森塔尔（几年前因癌症去世）对此的理解比我认识的任何人都深刻。

And that is my hope. I know that today feels like the last day, the end of the story because it's the last one we've lived through so far. But today is not the end of the story. Today is the middle of the story and it falls to us to fight for a better end. My friend Amy Cross Rosenthal who died of cancer a few years ago knew this better than anyone I've ever met.

艾米常邀请人们合唱一首改编自一战时期、用《友谊地久天长》曲调演唱的老歌。战壕里的英军士兵为战争的荒诞而悲愤时，会反复唱道：我们在此只因我们在此。艾米未曾改动歌词，却彻底改变了这首歌的意义，将其转化为希望的战歌。虽然我们无法确知为何存在于此，但依然可以庆祝此刻的相聚——尤其当众人齐声合唱时，这首歌对我而言便有了全新的意义。

Amy used to ask people to sing an old song from World War one sung to the tune of that New Year's Eve song, Auld Lang Syne. British soldiers in the trenches horrified by the pointlessness of war would sing, we're here because we're here because we're here because we're here. And Amy changed the meaning of that song without ever changing the words. She turned it into a kind of battle cry for hope. It's true that we can't say with certainty why we are here, but we can nonetheless celebrate being here, especially being here together in community because that song when sung together takes on an entirely different meaning, at least for me.

若各位不介意，我想现在就和莫里·桑托斯博士一起合唱这首歌。在此只因——

And if you'll indulge me, I'd like to sing it together once now, hopefully, with doctor Maury Santos. Here because

我们在此只因我们在此只因我们在此只因我们在此。

we're here because we're here because because we're We're here because we're here because we're here because we're here.

衷心感谢诸位今晚的相伴。谢谢。

Thank you so much for being here with us tonight. Thank you.

这里是iHeart播客。

This is an iHeart podcast.