如何接纳不完美

这是一个iHeart播客。

This is an iHeart podcast.

每年夏天给我带来快乐的一件事就是在我的侧门廊上种几盆迷你南瓜。这就是为什么当我听说Mill时如此兴奋。Mill是一款轻松无味的食物回收器。你知道那些每次

One of the things that gives me joy every summer is growing a few pots of mini pumpkins on my side porch. And that's why I was so excited to hear about Mill. Mill is an effortless, odorless food recycler. Well, you know all those food scraps you

被你扔进垃圾桶的食物残渣

toss into the garbage every time

你做饭时产生的，或者冰箱里放了很久需要扔掉但你知道会很臭的外卖盒？有了Mill，你可以把所有废弃食物变成对地球和南瓜都有益的东西。Mill是在家防止食物浪费最干净、最简单的方式。它让食物远离垃圾桶变得像随手一放一样简单。前往mill.com/thl可享受75美元优惠。

you cook or that random carton of takeout that's been in your fridge forever that you kinda need to toss out, but you know it's gonna be stinky? Well, with Mill, you can take all that dead food and turn it into something that's good for the planet and for pumpkins. Mill is the cleanest, easiest way to prevent food waste at home. It makes keeping food out of the trash as easy as dropping it in. Go to mill.com/thl for $75 off a Mill.

在当今超级竞争的商业环境中，优势属于那些更努力推动、更快行动并升级所有工具的人。T-Mobile深谙此道。根据Ookla Speedtest专家的评估，他们现在是最佳网络，并正利用该网络推出Supermobile——首个也是唯一一个结合智能性能、内置安全性和无缝卫星覆盖的商业计划。这就是为您的业务注入超级动力。了解更多请访问supermobile.com。

In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal. T Mobile knows all about that. They're now the best network according to the experts at Ookla Speedtest, and they're using that network to launch Supermobile, the first and only business plan to combine intelligent performance, built in security, and seamless satellite coverage. That's your business supercharged. Learn more at supermobile.com.

在美国大多数能看到天空的户外区域，兼容设备可享受无缝覆盖。最佳网络基于Ookla对Speedtest Intelligence数据'1小时二十'25的分析。

Seamless coverage with compatible devices in most outdoor areas in The US where you can see the sky. Best network based on analysis by Ookla of Speedtest Intelligence Data '1 h twenty '25.

AutoTrader由AutoIntelligence驱动，这是一种超个性化的购车方式，其工具能与您的精确预算和偏好同步，因此您只会看到您负担得起且真正想要的车辆。选择新车或二手车，按款式和选定功能（甚至拖车挂钩）进行筛选。尽管挑剔吧。在价格方面，您会看到哪些列表是最佳交易，让您感觉像是在不谈判的情况下赢得了谈判。由AutoIntelligence驱动的AutoTrader让购车不再是一个繁琐的过程。

AutoTrader is powered by AutoIntelligence, the hyper personalized way to buy a car with tools that sync with your exact budget and preference so you only see vehicles you can afford and actually want. Choose new or pre owned, narrow by style, and select features, even trailer hitch. Go ahead and get picky. And with pricing, you'll see which listings are the best deals, so you can feel like you're winning the negotiation without negotiating. Auto Trader powered by auto intelligence makes car buying less of a process.

访问 autotrader.com 找到您的完美座驾。

Visit autotrader.com to find your perfect ride.

普希金。

Pushkin.

嘿，幸福实验室的听众们。欢迎来到新的一年和这个播客的新系列。很多听众联系我们说，你们最喜欢幸福实验室的地方就是从节目中获得的实用建议。所以在接下来的几个月里，我们将让获取这些实用建议变得更加容易。我们将为您带来一整季的'如何做'指南，这些指南我们相信会让您在2025年的生活更加幸福。

Hey, Happiness Lab listeners. Welcome to a new year and a new series of this podcast. So many of you have gotten in touch to say that what you love most about the Happiness Lab is the practical advice that you get from the show. So over the next few months, we're gonna make getting that practical advice even easier. We'll be bringing you an entire season of how to guides, ones that we think will make your life much happier in 2025.

我召集了一群出色的专家团队。他们是各自领域的顶尖专家，主题范围从如何让每一天的生活更加丰富多彩，到如何通过观看浪漫喜剧电影找到有价值的人际关系经验。在每个'如何做'的剧集中，我们将分解关键要点。每期节目将提供大约六条左右的建议，帮助应对诸如压力、应对负面情绪、寻找人生目标和改善约会等挑战。今天，我们将以我个人经常纠结的一个主题开启这个'如何做'季——如何接受不完美。您看，我花了大量时间想要做到与此相反的事情。

I've assembled a cast of amazing They're the premier experts in their fields on topics ranging from how to live a richer life each and every day to how to find valuable relationship lessons from watching rom com movies. In each how to episode, we'll be breaking down the key takeaways. Each show will feature a half a dozen or so tips for tackling challenges like stress, navigating negative emotions, finding your purpose, and dating better. And today, we're kicking off this how to season with a topic that I struggle with a lot, how to be imperfect. You see, I spend a lot of time wanting to do the opposite of this.

我希望我做的每件事都完美无缺。我想举办最棒的晚宴和最有效的实验室会议，成为最好的朋友、妻子、播客主持人和教授。但有一本新书真的帮助我获得了更好的视角。它叫做《凡人之冥想：用四周时间拥抱你的局限并为重要之事腾出时间》。其作者奥利弗·伯格曼之前曾做客幸福实验室。

I want everything I do to be perfect. I wanna throw the best dinner parties and the most effective lab meetings and to be the best friend and wife and podcaster and professor. But there's a new book that has really helped me gain a better perspective on this. It's called Meditations for Mortals, Four Weeks to Embrace Your Limitations and Make Time for What Counts. Its author, Oliver Bergman, has been on The Happiness Lab before.

他帮助我找到了对抗持续忙碌带来的压力的方法。而《凡人之冥想》探讨了一个相关的话题。我们如何开始把时间花在真正重要的事情上？奥利弗的书谈论的并不是那种清空思绪、深呼吸的冥想。不是的。

He helped me find ways to fight the stress that comes from constant busyness. And Meditations for Mortals tackles a related topic. How can we start spending our time on the stuff that really counts? And Oliver's book isn't talking about meditations, like the clear your mind and take deep breaths meditation. No.

他的冥想是简短的哲学建议，旨在帮助人们接受这个世界是混乱的，我们也是混乱的，而追求完美既不是一个可实现的目标，也不是一个健康的目标。但是...你这些天还在纽约吧？对吗，奥利弗？

His meditations are short philosophical tips for embracing the fact that the world is messy, that we're messy, and that striving for perfection isn't an achievable or a healthy goal. But you're you're based in New York these days still. Right, Oliver?

不。我在北约克郡，就在东海岸这边。

No. I'm in, North Yorkshire, so I'm just up the East Coast.

我与奥利弗坐下来，梳理出了他关于接纳自身不完美的五大心得。

I sat down with Oliver to tease out his top five lessons for accepting our imperfection.

布鲁克林和约克郡是我度过一生的两个地方，所以你发现

Are the two places where I've spent my life, Brooklyn and Yorkshire, so it's not surprising that you find

但我首先问了他关于新年的事——这个我们许多人希望翻开新篇章、改掉坏习惯、成为理想中完美自我的时刻。

But I began by asking him about the New Year, a time when so many of us hope to turn over a new leaf, shed our bad habits, and become the perfect people we've always wanted to be.

我常觉得新年在某些方面可能是实施重大改变的最糟时机，尤其（虽然我现在不怎么这样了）如果你在跨年夜参加那种high翻天的派对，那么1月1日绝不会是执行美好高尚新计划的日子。不管是不是日历上的节点，任何强求从现在起彻底洗心革面的压力都是问题。因为真正有效的是愿意尝试、实验、短期实践，甚至只做一次而不强求其成为沉重可怕的彻底转变体系的一部分。

I've often thought that the New Year is, in some ways, almost the worst possible time to be trying to implement major changes, especially I don't do this much these days, but especially if you're spending New Year's Eve at a sort of very high octane party, then January 1 is gonna not be the day for wonderful, virtuous new plans. Whether it's a calendrical thing or not, anything that piles on the pressure to kind of make a complete fresh start from now forevermore, that's a problem. Because I think what's gonna work instead is the willingness to try things out, to experiment, to do things for a little while, even just to do them once without forcing them to be part of a very, very heavy and intimidating system of total transformation, something like that.

所以某种程度上，你的书是对抗那种彻底转变体系的指南。你提到了“不完美主义”这个概念。什么是不完美主义？为什么我们

And so in some ways, your book is a guide towards sort of fighting against that total system of transformation. You talked about this idea of imperfectionism. Imperfectionism. What is imperfectionism, and why should

应该拥抱它？

we embrace it?

我认为'不完美主义'是我用来概括这种生活方式的统称，它始于这样一个认知：我们永远无法把事情做得像想象中那么完美，永远有太多事情要做，面对新的人生阶段或激动人心的新项目时永远不会感到完全准备就绪，可能永远无法解决拖延、分心等所有重大个人问题。然后它提出：好吧，既然如此，现在该怎么办？我们如何培养行动意愿，真正去做那些重要的事情，并且在大多数时候享受做这些重要事情的过程——既然那种折磨人的海市蜃楼已经从议程上消失了？

Imperfectionism is just my kind of umbrella term, I think, for the whole approach to life that starts from the assumption that we're never going to be able to do things as perfectly as we can imagine them, but starts from the assumption that there's always going to be too much to do, that we're never going to feel completely ready for new life stages or for interesting and exciting new projects, that we're probably never going to fix all our massive personal problems that we have with procrastination or distraction or whatever else it is, and then says, well, okay. Now what? And how can we develop the willingness to act and to really do the stuff that matters and to, hopefully, most of the time, enjoy doing a lot of the stuff that matters now that that kind of tormenting mirage is off the agenda?

你在书中谈到了不完美主义的一些原则。我必须承认其中有些让我深感共鸣，因为这些正是我苦苦挣扎的问题。第一个是'永远不会有万事俱备的理想之日'这个概念。你在这里指的是什么？为什么摒弃这种观念很重要？

So in your book, you talk about some of the tenets of imperfectionism. And I have to admit that in some of these, I felt really called out because they're ones that I absolutely struggle with. The first of these is this idea that there's never gonna be this fantasy day when everything is out of the way. What do you mean here, and why is it important to get rid of this notion?

首先我要说明，我是在直面自己，和直面其他人一样。我是在指出自己的问题。你可以从多个角度理解这一点，但单就现代社会中我们感觉需要处理的事务量而言：在任何给定时间段内——比如今天结束前、本周结束前——总觉得需要完成的事情总是比实际能完成的要多。这显然与我们生活的技术环境、经济文化等各种因素有关，使得这种情况不可避免。

Well, first of all, let me say that I'm I'm confronting myself as much as anybody else. I'm calling out myself. So you can come at this from many different angles, but certainly just when it comes to the volume of stuff that we tend in the modern world to feel like we need to do. There is always a bigger amount that feels like it needs to be done in any given time period, you know, by the end of the day, by the end of the week, than we have the opportunity to do. There are clear reasons of technology and economic culture in which we live and all sorts of things that just make that inevitable.

如果你抱着这种可以理解但具有误导性的观念生活：先处理完所有琐事，清理完占据心智的杂务，然后就能找到大块时间来做真正重要的事情——比如经营关系或推进重要项目。那么你最终会一辈子都在'清空甲板'，却永远无法抵达目的地。我认为更重要的是要明白：我们真正要培养的是即使甲板尚未清空，也愿意立即为重要事项采取行动的能力。这可以说是一种焦虑承受能力——明知有需要回复的邮件，却依然决定把每天第一小时用在回复邮件之外的事情上。

So if you approach life with this very sort of understandable but misleading notion that what you're going do is, first of all, get all the little bits of stuff out of the way, deal with all the things that are kind of cluttering your mental world, and then you will find these great expanses of time for the things that really matter, the relationships or the projects that really count. You're gonna end up spending your whole life clearing the decks, as it were, and never getting there. I think it's really important instead to see that the skill we're trying to develop here, I would say, is the willingness to act on the important things right now, even though the decks are not clear. It's kind of an anxiety tolerance skill, I think. It's knowing that there are emails that will need your attention, but deciding nonetheless to spend the first hour of the day, say, on some things other than answering them.

当然这因人而异，有些人从事的工作要求必须立即回复某些邮件，否则可能被解雇。但核心观点是：根本不存在那个'将来会有大把时间处理重要事项'的时刻。所以在某种程度上，你必须当下就争取这些时间。

Of course, this will vary massively by people's personal situations, and some people I know are in jobs where certain kinds of emails have to be responded to immediately, or they might get fired. I think the underlying point here is there isn't this moment coming later when you're gonna have all the time for the things that matter. And so on some level, you have to claim that time in the present instead.

这个见解对我而言至关重要。我的日历上似乎总标记着这样的时刻：'等到下个月就好'，'等到1月1日就好'——我总想着在1月1日前处理完所有事情，然后就可以重新开始。

I can't tell you how important this insight has been for me. I feel like my calendar constantly has these moments of like, alright. I'm gonna get to a new month. Right? I'm gonna get get get to January 1, and then I'll try to get everything done before January 1, and then I can begin.

结果1月1日到了，2月1日到了，我的生日到了——总是试图在某个日期前清空待办事项，然后……然后就没了下文。我认为这其中还涉及你提醒警惕的另一个问题：那种需要摒弃的'最优化思维'。

And January 1 comes around, and I have it. And then it's February 1, or it's my birthday, or it's whatever it is. There's always this kind of trying to clear the decks before this date with the ideas. And then, you know, and then dot dot dot dot, and it kinda never gets there. I think part of this also is something else that you've cautioned against, which is this idea of the spirit of optimization that we might need to kinda reject this.

那是什么精神，为什么拒绝它如此重要？

What is that spirit, and why is it so important to reject?

或者甚至不说拒绝，而只是看穿那种诱人的承诺——我认为这是我经常主张的观点。这是一种温和的认识：这些事情并不会朝着我们希望的方向发展，然后放手就会容易得多。就优化和效率而言，当然，在边缘节省一些时间、思考日常习惯、如何整理房屋或书桌以消除浪费时间并没有错。如果你每天早上要花一个小时找衣服，那你的房屋整理方式可能有问题。但这种改善的效果在很低的层次就会停止，因为我认为迷惑我们的是一种幻觉：我们可能优化自己到无需为如何安排时间做艰难决定的程度，可以对所有摆到我们面前的事情都说‘是’。

Or maybe even not say reject, but just sort of sort of see through the alluring promise of I think that's something that I'm often arguing for. It's just a sort of gentle understanding that these things are not going where we hope that they're going, and then it's a lot easier to let go of them. In the case of optimization and efficiency in general, right, there's certainly nothing wrong with making a few time savings around the edges, thinking about your daily routines, how you organize your house or your desk in such a way as to eliminate wasted time. You know, if it's taking you an hour to find your clothes in the morning, there's probably something wrong with how you have your house organized. But it's a very low level at which that stops making a difference, because I think the illusion, the thing that sort of bewitches us is this notion that we might be able to optimize ourselves to the point where we didn't have to make difficult decisions about what to do with our time, where we could say yes to everything that was thrown onto our plates.

我们永远不会让任何人失望。我们永远不需要搁置任何抱负。我们永远不需要忽略那些感觉急需我们关注的事情。我想说，作为有限的人类，这其实是我们处境中固有的——但现实并非如此：你必然会让某些人失望，你必然要将某些抱负暂时放下，你必然无法完成所有感觉需要做的事情，只为能做成一些事、对他人的生活产生影响、追求自己最珍视的抱负。所以优化可能真正分散我们的精力和注意力。

We would never have to disappoint anybody. We would never have to put any of our ambitions on hold. We would never have to neglect something that felt like it was crying out for our attention. And I want to say that it's just baked in to our situation as finite humans, but that's not how it works, that you're going to have to disappoint some people, that you're going to have to put some ambitions on the back burner, that you're going to have to not do all the things that feel like they need doing just in order to do any things and to make a difference to anybody's lives and to pursue any of your most cherished ambitions. So optimization can be a real diversion of energy and attention.

它还有一个非常具体的隐藏危险：如果你告诉自己你总会设法为所有事情腾出时间，你就停止认真审视到来的事情。对吧？有人问你：你能完成这个任务吗？你能满足这个要求吗？假设这是一个你可以选择接受或拒绝的事情。

It also has this very specific hidden danger that if you are telling yourself that you're gonna make time for everything somehow, you stop asking serious questions about things that arrive. Right? Somebody asks you, could you do this task? Could you meet this demand? And say it's one that you could you are in a position where you're allowed to say yes or no to it.

嗯，如果你

Well, if you

认为自己能完成所有事情，你就会

think you're gonna get everything done, you're

直接说：好的，没问题。扔进任务堆里吧。这里没问题。我能搞定一切。所以这非常诱人，但结果是你的生活逐渐被越来越多你并不真正想做的事情填满——别人的议程、你本可以拒绝但实际上觉得不需要拒绝的事情，因为你觉得自己正变得如此强大、如此全能以至于不需要拒绝。

just gonna say, yeah, sure. Throw it in the hopper. There's no problem here. I'm going to get everything done. And so it's a very alluring thing, but what happens is that your life gradually starts filling with more and more stuff that you didn't really wanna do, other people's agendas, things you could have said no to, in fact, but felt like you were on the path to being so powerful that you didn't need to, you know, so all all capable that you didn't need to.

所以我理解这种方法的有效性，就是某种程度上放松我们的优化，认识到我们永远无法掌控一切。我明白它可能很实用，但我也觉得这相当令人沮丧。但你的书中一个有趣的观点是，你认为这根本不应该令人沮丧，而应该是极其解放的。请解释这是如何运作的。

So I get the effectiveness of this approach of kind of, you know, loosening up on our optimization and recognizing that we're never gonna get everything under control. I get how it might be functional, but I also find it quite depressing. But one of the things that's interesting in your book is you argue, like, this should not be depressing at all. This should be incredibly liberating. Explain how that works.

当然。我经常遇到这种反对意见。我理解它。对吧？这其中确实涉及一种挫败感。

Sure. I mean, I come across this objection. I understand it. Right? There is definitely a kind of a defeat that is involved here.

我想论证的是，这是一种富有成效、充满活力且赋予力量的挫败，因为这是对尝试和挣扎去做一件从一开始就不可能实现的事情的放弃。我认为当你在这方面有所进步时——我当然不声称自己在这方面很完美，如果我说自己完美那就违背了我自己的观点——你会把更多宝贵时间花在让你感觉更有活力的事情上。我部分指的是爱好、娱乐活动和有意义的工作，但即使是生活中那些感觉像是责任的事情，如果你是在选择它们而非其他事情的背景下去做，它们也能被赋予更大的意义。书中我引用了一位英国出生的禅宗大师的话，我经常引用因为这段话对我意义重大，她叫裘·肯尼特，现已去世多年，她常说她的教学方式不是减轻学生的负担，而是让负担变得如此沉重以至于他或她会放下它。

I'm trying to argue that it's a productive and energizing and empowering kind of defeat because it's the defeat of trying and struggling to do something that was never on the cards to begin with. I think that what you do, and I certainly don't claim to be perfect at this. I'd sort of be under reminding my own point if I did, I think, but what you do when you get a little bit better at this is you spend more of your precious time doing things that make you feel more alive. I'm partly talking about hobbies and recreational activities and meaningful work, but even things that feel like duties in your life, if you're doing them in this context of having chosen them as against other things, they can become imbued with greater meaning. There's a British born Zen master who I quote in the book, and I always quote because the quote means so much to me, whom Joo Kennett was her name, and she died a while ago now, who used to say that her approach to teaching was not to lighten the burden of the student, but to make it so heavy that he or she would put it down.

每当我想到这句话时仍然会起鸡皮疙瘩，因为它确实是我们这里讨论的精髓所在。就像你正在努力承担这个不可能的重担：试图做所有事，试图掌控一切，试图在采取高风险行动之前让自己变得完美。而能够把这个重担放在地上是一种美妙的感觉。这种感觉会让你更有精力去做事，或者继续攀登高山，或者无论我们在这里用的是什么隐喻。

And I still get goosebumps when I think about this quote because it it really is the essence of what we're talking about here, I think. It's like you are struggling under this impossible burden of trying to do everything, trying to get your arms around it all, trying to make yourself be perfect before you take the high stakes actions. And it's just a lovely feeling to be able to set that down on the ground. And it's a feeling that leaves you more energized to go and do things or to keep climbing the mountain or whatever the metaphor is that we're that we're dealing with here.

所以如果奥利弗已经说服你，放弃追求完美是解放的一步，你应该继续收听他的'如何不完美'指南中的第一个技巧。广告休息后马上回来。每年夏天给我带来快乐的事情之一就是在我的侧廊上种几盆迷你南瓜。我不是园丁，但我一直在寻找帮助我的小南瓜茁壮成长的好方法。这就是为什么当我听说Mill时如此兴奋。

So if Oliver's convinced you that rejecting the pursuit of perfection is a liberating step, you should stick with us for tip number one in his guide to how to be imperfect. It's coming up right after the break. One of the things that gives me joy every summer is growing a few pots of mini pumpkins on my side porch. I'm no gardener, but I'm always looking for good ways to help my baby pumpkins thrive. And that's why I was so excited to hear about Mill.

Mill是一款轻松无味的食物回收器。什么是食物回收器？嗯，你知道每次做饭时扔进垃圾桶的那些食物残渣，或者冰箱里放了很久需要扔掉但知道会很臭的外卖盒？有了Mill，你可以把所有这些废弃食物变成对地球和南瓜都有益的东西。现在我有了自己的Mill，我有点喜欢处理所有的残渣了，这让我很高兴知道我的垃圾不会伤害地球。

Mill is an effortless, odorless food recycler. What's a food recycler, you ask? Well, you know all those food scraps you toss into the garbage every time you cook or that random carton of takeout that's been in your fridge forever that you kinda need to toss out, but you know it's gonna be stinky? Well, with Mill, you can take all that dead food and turn it into something that's good for the planet and for pumpkins. Now that I have my own Mill, I kinda love getting rid of all my scraps, and that gives me the joy of knowing that I'm not hurting the planet with my waste.

更少的愧疚，更多的快乐。但Mill我最喜欢的一点是完全没有气味，一点都没有。Mill让为地球做好事变得容易，没有臭味或混乱。Mill是在家中防止食物浪费最干净、最简单的方法。它让保持食物远离垃圾桶就像扔进去一样简单。

Less guilt and more joy. But my favorite thing about mill is that there's no smell, like none at all. Mill makes it easy to do something good for the planet without the stink or the mess. Mill is the cleanest, easiest way to prevent food waste at home. It makes keeping food out of the trash as easy as dropping it in.

访问 mill.com/thl 可享受 Mill 产品 75 美元优惠。Auto Trader 由 Auto Intelligence 驱动，这是一种超个性化的购车方式。AutoTrader 的工具会根据您的确切预算和偏好进行同步，为您量身定制购车体验。预算功能让您输入信息以查看符合您价格区间的车辆列表。搜索和库存功能帮助您精准定位梦想之车。

Go to mill.com/thl for $75 off a Mill. Auto Trader is powered by Auto Intelligence, the hyper personalized way to buy a car. AutoTrader's tools sync with your exact budget and preferences to tailor the car shopping experience totally to you. Budgeting lets you input your info to see listings in your price range. Search and inventory helps zero in on your dream car.

您可以选择新车或二手车、车型以及发动机大小、颜色等配置，甚至可以选择是否需要拖车挂钩。尽管挑剔吧。无需担心无休止地滚动浏览。由 Auto Intelligence 驱动的 Auto Trader 只会根据您的承受能力和需求展示车辆，而定价功能会显示哪些列表最划算，让您感觉无需谈判就已赢得谈判。您甚至可以选择在线、在经销商处或两者结合的方式完成交易。

You can choose from new or pre owned, the style of the car, and the features like engine size, color, all the way down to whether you want a trailer hitch. Go ahead and get picky. Don't worry about scrolling endlessly. Auto Trader powered by auto intelligence only shows you vehicles based on what you can afford and what you want, and pricing shows you which listings are the best deal so you can feel like you're winning the negotiation without negotiating. You can even choose how to close the deal, online, at the dealership, or a little of both.

由 Auto Intelligence 驱动的 Auto Trader 让购车过程不再繁琐。立即尝试，访问 autotrader.com 寻找您的完美座驾。秋季正当时，是更新衣橱的绝佳时机，添置那些穿着舒适又好看的衣物。幸运的是，Quince 让您轻松展现精致、保持温暖并节省大笔开支，同时不牺牲品质。

Auto Trader powered by auto intelligence makes the process of buying a car less of a process. Try it today. Visit autotrader.com to find your perfect ride. Fall is in full swing and is the perfect time to refresh your wardrobe with pieces that feel as good as they look. Luckily, Quince makes it easy to look polished, stay warm, and save big without compromising on quality.

Quince 拥有您秋季所需的所有高端必备单品。Quince 的蒙古羊绒全拉链连帽衫几乎是我每个秋季周末活动的标配，但我还一直关注他们超级柔软的法兰绒拉链连帽衫，想换换风格。通过与道德顶级工厂直接合作，Quince 去除了中间环节，以类似品牌一半的价格提供奢华品质的单品。Quince 可以成为您的一站式商店，无论您需要衣橱、厨房甚至家居用品。这个秋天，用 Quince 持久耐用的经典单品保持经典与舒适。

Quince has all the elevated essentials that you need for fall. Quince's Mongolian cashmere full zip hoodie has been pretty much part of my every fall weekend activity, but I've also been eyeing their super soft fleece zip up hoodie to mix it up a bit. By partnering directly with Ethical top tier factories, Quince cuts out the middleman to deliver luxury quality pieces at half the price of similar brands. Quince can become your one stop shop, whether you need pieces for your closet, your kitchen, or even around the house. Keep it classic and cozy this fall with long lasting staples from Quince.

访问 quince.com/happiness 即可享受订单免运费和 365 天退货服务。那就是 quince.com/happiness，获得免运费和三百六十五天退货服务。Quince.com/happiness。Oliver Brickman 的简单哲学是，试图追求完美并做所有事情是一种不可能的负担，这种负担压垮我们，阻止我们投身于更有意义的活动。而拥抱不完美主义的第一步，是像我这样的完美主义者所挣扎的事情。

Go to quince.com/happiness for free shipping on your order and 365 returns. That's quince.com/happiness to get free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Quince.com/happiness. Oliver Brickman's simple philosophy is that trying to be perfect and do everything is an impossible burden, a burden that weighs us down and prevents us from dedicating ourselves to more meaningful activities. And the first step on the road to embracing imperfectionism is something that a perfectionist like me struggles with.

其实就是动手去做。你知道，真的去烤那个蛋糕，写那本书，或者去那个目的地旅行。这个建议感觉像是在点名批评我。我从未真正去烤蛋糕，因为我花了太多时间试图找到完美的蛋糕食谱。我不常度假，但却花了大量时间研究完美的旅行地点。

It's actually doing things. You know, actually bake that cake or write that book or travel to that destination. And this tip kinda feels like being called out. I never get around to baking the cake because I spend way too much time trying to find the perfect cake recipe. I don't take many vacations, but I spend a heck of a lot of time researching the perfect travel spot.

在我试图完美设置一切的过程中，我很少真正动手做事。就好像我在寻找一种方法或系统，无论做什么都能每次都获得完美结果。

In my attempt to set up everything perfectly, I rarely get around to actually doing stuff. It's like I'm looking for a method or system to get perfect results every time no matter what I'm doing.

是的。我认为这对我们许多人来说都很有诱惑力，对吧？那种认为存在一套规则或某种做事方式，只要你能发现或完善它，就能让一切顺利运转的想法。实际上，在更深层、更微妙的意义上，它几乎能替你生活。

Yeah. I mean, I think this is, for many of us, very alluring. Right? The idea that there's some set of rules or some way of doing things that if you could only discover it or perfect it, would make everything work. And actually, on a deeper kind of subtler level, almost would live life on your behalf.

对吧？就像交易一样：我每天都会遵循所有这些规则，而作为回报，我就不必真正面对生活，不必应对生活中所有混乱、泥泞、不快、困难、不确定性等等。所以我本身并不反对系统和规则，事实上，新书里也有很多关于如何构建系统的纲要，但我认为关键是要把它们放在正确的位置上。它们是我们身处生活之中所使用的工具，而不是能让我们脱离这种处境的东西。

Right? It's like the deal is I will follow all these rules every day, and when I get back from it is that, like, I don't quite have to show up for life and grapple with life in all its kind of messy, muddy unpleasantness and difficulty and uncertainty and all the rest of it. So I've got nothing against systems and rules per se, and in fact, the new book has plenty of sort of outlines of of ways to to build one, but I think it's essential we sort of put them in their place. They are tools that we use from our position here in the midst of life. They are not things that can get us out of that situation.

那么这与'直接去做'的理念有何关联？我认为我们以一种适得其反的方式使用系统的情况是：我们想做某件事。我们想在生活中多做某事，比如体育锻炼、冥想、追求一个被我们忽视的创意爱好，或者培养某些我们已经任其凋零的关系。然后我们立刻就去寻找那个能把我变成更擅长做这件事的人的系统。对吧？

So how is this relevant to the idea of just doing things? I think that one way in which we use systems in a counterproductive way is we want to do something. We want to do more of something in our lives, physical exercise, meditation, pursuing a creative hobby that we've let neglect, or nurturing certain relationships that we've sort of allowed to wither on something. And then we immediately go to what's the system that's going to change me into the kind of person that does this better. Right?

目标是什么？我余生每天都要做的晨间例行程序是什么？我需要什么设备？我可以读哪10本书才能真正知道怎么做这件事？是的。

What are the goals? What's the morning routine I'm gonna do every day for the rest of my life? What's the equipment I need? What are the 10 books I can read so that I really know how to do this thing? Yeah.

我有时仍然完全倾向于这样做。对吧？但我第一个念头总是：找本书。找本书。找一套我能从中构建系统的信息。

I'm I'm totally still prone to doing this sometimes. Right? But my first thought's always like, find a book. Find a book. Find a set of information that I can build a system from.

但首先，这与实际做那件事不是一回事。其次，我认为这实际上可能适得其反，因为它变成了一件更令人生畏或更难以处理的事情。想到必须余生每天都做某件事，真的会让你根本不想做，或者如果你某天没能坚持就会感觉很糟糕。我认为真正需要培养的强大技能是愿意说：好吧，那些东西以后可能有点用，但如果我就先冥想十分钟呢？

But firstly, that is not the same as doing the thing. Secondly, it can actually be counterproductive, I think, because it becomes a much more intimidating or unwieldy thing. The prospect of having to do something every day for the rest of your life can really put you in the mind of not wanting to do it at all, or you feel terrible if you fall off the wagon one day or whatever it might be. The really powerful skill to develop, I think, is the willingness to say, okay. That might have some role later, but what if I just meditated for ten minutes?

如果我就去快走一下呢？如果我就拿起电话和一个久未联系的朋友聊聊天呢？不确信自己能做好，不确定自己会余生每天都做，不保证这会把我变成一直做那种事的人，但它仍然比所有那些东西加起来更有价值，因为它真实地发生了。

What if I just went for a brisk walk? What if I just picked up the phone and talked to the long lost friend with no confidence that I would do it well, no certainty that I'll do it every day for the rest of my life, no guarantee that it's gonna turn me into the kind of person who does that kind of thing all the time, But it's still worth more than all those things combined because it actually happened in reality.

我能分享一下我的经历吗？简直和这个完全吻合。当我读你的书时，我就想，天啊，他现在完全说中了我的心思。去年有段时间，我在看一些关于DJ的纪录片，然后我就想，你知道吗？

Can I share my experience that, like, fits with this to a tee? When I was reading your book, I was like, oh my god. He's literally in my head right now. So sometime last year, I was watching these documentaries about DJs. And I was like, you know what?

我要去学一些唱盘技巧。我超爱唱片之类的。我立马就去查资料，开始研究书籍，我甚至不只是买书。

I'm gonna I'm gonna learn to do some turntablism stuff. Like, I love records and so on. I immediately went to look. I started researching books. I didn't even just buy books.

我花了大概几周时间研究，比如学习唱盘技巧的最佳方式是什么？我买了这些书，还去找了最有效的方法。我下载了伯克利音乐学院的课程大纲，了解最佳学习途径。我花了好几个小时研究如何学习唱盘技巧，然后买了这些资源，结果完全把自己吓倒了，因为我读的都是顶尖DJ和音乐学校学生的东西。

I spent, like, weeks researching. Like, what's the best way to learn about turntablism and stuff? And I bought these books, and I went to the what's the best possible way. So I downloaded the syllabus from Berkeley College of Music of the best ways to do this. And I spent hours and hours researching how to how to, like, learn to do turntablism and then bought these resources and then completely intimidated myself because I was reading from the best DJs and people who are in music school.

而我呢，你知道，作为教授和播客主，每周大概只有四分钟来做这个。然后我从未碰过唱片或实际做任何事。对吧？读你的书让我意识到，我本可以下载个应用，开始播放音乐，随便假装摆弄一下。虽然不完美，但至少我做了点什么，而且会很有趣，而不是让我感到羞愧，觉得永远做不到，白白浪费了大量时间。

And I'm like, you know, professor and podcaster and have, like, four minutes a week to do this. And then I never picked up a record or did anything. Right? I just reading your book is like, I could have just, like, downloaded some app and started playing some music and just kind of pretending and messing around. And it wouldn't have been the perfect system, but at least I would have done something, and it would have been fun rather than kind of make me feel ashamed and, like, I'm never gonna do it and a huge waste of time.

是的，没错。这让我很有共鸣。我觉得很有趣。我想在这方面我们可以从小孩子身上学到很多。

So Yeah. No. That resonates a lot. I think it's so interesting. It's like we can learn a lot from young kids in this regard, I think.

DJ的例子让我觉得有意思，因为我们儿子经常说长大后想当DJ。我不知道为什么。但他就会直接投入进去，比如组装播放列表、设置迪斯科灯光等等。你就是直接去做。比如某天放学后玩个二十五分钟，然后你就已经尝试过了。

The DJ example is interesting to me because our son often professes the desire to be a DJ when he's older. I don't know. But, like and he just, like, dive into, like, assembling playlists and setting up disco lights and whatever. Like, you just do it. And, like, you do it for twenty five minutes one day after school, and then you've done it.

你知道吗？然后你可能再做一次，又一次，或者就不做了。成年似乎总伴随着一种观念，觉得事情必须按照某种非常控制的方案来完成。

You know? And then maybe you do it again and then again, and maybe you don't. Something about becoming an adult seems to be associated with this idea that it's got to be done in a very controlled sort of a scheme.

好的。这是第一个建议。你只需要去做，这个建议其实就是，你今天花十分钟就能做到，就这么做，可能就足够了。我也经常纠结的第二个建议是，你主张我们需要对抗这种生产力债务的观念，我自己就经常陷入其中。什么是生产力债务？

Okay. So that's idea number one. You just need to do it, and the advice is really just like, you can do in ten minutes today, just do that, and it's probably good enough. The second tip that I also struggle with a lot is you've argued that we need to fight back against this idea of productivity debt, something I pray fall prey to all the time. What is productivity debt?

生产力债务是我给这种普遍感受贴的标签——我们很多人早上醒来时都感觉像是欠了债，对吧？除非我们产出一定数量或完成一定量的事情，否则我们就没有充分证明自己作为人类存在的价值。我们还没有完全赢得在地球上存在的权利。这里有一个重要的提醒：显然，如果你从事任何有偿工作，在某种意义上你确实处于生产力债务中。对吗？如果你拿薪水，你就必须完成工作职责才能获得报酬。

Productivity debt is my label for this sense that so many of us have that we sort of wake up in the morning in a kind of a debt, right, that unless we produce a certain amount or do a certain amount of things, we haven't quite justified our existence as humans. We haven't quite earned the right to be here on the planet. There's an important caveat, which obviously, you if do any kind of work for money, there is a sense in which you're in productivity debt. Right? If you get paid a salary, you have to do the things that your job entails in order to get the salary.

我谈论的是更深层次的存在主义观念——除非我们在一天中偿还了这笔债务，否则我们就无法作为人类感到安心。这非常令人沮丧，因为显然，继续用银行账户债务之类的比喻来说，一天结束时最好的情况也不过是归零。对吗？如果你以这种赤字思维模式工作，这 literally 就是可能发生的最好情况。而且显然，大多数时候

I'm talking about this much deeper existential notion that we don't get to feel okay as human beings unless we have paid off this debt during the day. And it's very depressing because, obviously, to continue the analogy with a sort of a debt in a bank account or something, the very best thing that can happen is that you get back to zero by the end of the day. Right? Like, that is literally the very best thing that can happen if you work in this kind of deficit based mindset. And, obviously, most of

你甚至不会感觉自己达到了那个状态。然后你就会醒来

the time, you're not gonna feel that you even get there. And then you're gonna wake up

第二天早上，一切又重头开始。你又得像推石头上山一样再过一天。所以我认为，仅仅认识到这一点对很多人来说就很有力量，因为在某种程度上，我们知道事实并非如此。对吗？我们并不真的相信，如果没有完成一定量的事情，我们就不配成为合格的人类。

the next morning, and it's all back again. You've got to, like, push the rock up the hill for another day. So I think, you know, just seeing that can be very powerful for a lot of people because on some level, we know that that isn't how it is. Right? We don't really believe that we sort of don't get to qualify as adequate human beings if we haven't done a certain amount.

除此之外，想想看，有各种策略，比如非常简单的

And then beyond that, think, you know, there are all sorts of tactics, like the very simple idea of keeping a done list, keeping a list of things that you have completed through the day as you complete them, that can help us sort of, you know, to continue that metaphor, what if you started each day at zero and everything that you did was paying in, and you ended up, like, building your credit, and then the next day you built your credit some more. Right? Is it possible to think of the things that we do as expressions of the fact that we already are adequate instead of ways that we're struggling to try to achieve a sense of of adequacy.

你在书中使用了一个我深有共鸣的术语。你知道，心理学家有个词来形容陷入这种观念的人，这种缺乏安全感的过度成就者。我想我明白这个词的意思，但我想请你阐述一下它是什么，以及你也许在自己身上是如何看到它的。

You use this term in the book that I resonate with. You know, psychologists sort of have a word for people who fall prey to this idea, this idea of insecure overachievers. I think I know what this term means, but I'm gonna have you articulate what it is and how you've seen it in yourself maybe.

哦，是的。是的。我的意思是，每当我使用这个词时，比如在公共活动或类似场合，总能感受到那种认同的涟漪。我不确定一个非常正式的定义是什么，但对我来说，它指的是那些做了很多事情、非常有驱动力（可能会用这个词来形容）、可能已经取得了很多成就、在某种程度上被朋友称赞或受人钦佩的人，但最终他们这样做是为了弥补内心那种除非做得足够多否则就不够好或不行的感觉。

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm always struck whenever I use this term, like, at a public event or something. The ripples of recognition are there. I don't know about a sort of very formal definition, but for me, what it means is, you know, we're talking about people who do a lot of stuff, who are very driven is a word that might get used, right, who probably have a lot of accomplishments under their belt and maybe are, to some degree, celebrated by their friends or admired by people for for doing it, but ultimately are doing it to kind of shore up this inner sense of not being adequate or okay unless they do enough.

这当然可能以非常有害的形式出现，但我认为对我们许多做了很多事情、完成任务并为此感到自豪的人来说，突然意识到在某种程度上，如果我们不是从需要填补或偿还某种缺陷才能享受生活的想法出发，我们可能不会做这些事情，或者会做不同的事情，当然也可能不会以那么严肃的方式去做。

And this certainly can take very toxic forms, but I think it's very normal, really, for a lot of us who sort of do a lot of things and get things done and feel proud of that to to realize with a start that actually on some level, we wouldn't do them or we might do different things. We certainly might do them in a less grim faced way if we weren't starting from the idea that there was some deficit that needed to be filled or paid off or whatever before we could enjoy ourselves in life.

是的。我真正喜欢这一点的原因是

Yeah. The reason I really love this

对我来说，关键不在于我需要停止做事，而是我做事情的方式。对吧？就像，就在录制播客之前，我提前十分钟结束了其他会议，然后就想，嗯，我有十分钟，我能做点什么？

point is that for me, it wasn't so much that that I need to stop doing things. It was kind of the way I do things. Right? Like, even now just before this before I sat down to record the podcast, I kinda was done my other meetings ten minutes early, it was like, well, I have ten minutes. What can I do?

我要去浇花。哦，花需要浇水。哦，也许我该去收拾洗碗机。就在那一刻，我注意到了正在发生的事情，我的全部目标就是尽可能多地完成事项。而这只是一种痛苦的生活方式。

I'm gonna water the plants. Like, oh, the plants need watering. Like, oh, maybe I'm to the dishwasher. It was like and I had just moment of noticing what was happening where it was like, my whole goal is to tick as many things off as possible. And that's just kind of a a miserable way to live.

是的。你知道吗？是的。不。是的。

Yeah. You know? Yeah. No. Yeah.

是的。我本可以用那十分钟会议后的时间只是待着、观察世界或者放松。放松。

Yeah. I could have spent that 10 meetings ten minutes just being or noticing the world or relaxing. Relaxing.

或者做一些富有成效和建设性的事情，但你也会考虑到享受的因素来选择它。对吧？否则，结果就是你最终生活在——我们经常谈论为多年后的未来而活，但很容易一生都活在约两小时后的未来中。对吧？那种感觉就像是，只要等我完成了那件事。

Or doing something productive and constructive, but you would have chosen it with some eye to enjoyment as well. Right? Otherwise, what happens is you end up living we talk a lot about living in the future in terms of living for years from now, but it's very easy to spend your whole life living about two hours in the future. Right? That that sense that, like, it's just when I've done that.

只要等我完成了那件事。然后一天结束了，当我上床睡觉时，总还有另一件事，这几乎让你生活中的一切变成了一种不受欢迎的障碍，阻碍你结束这一天或完成任何事情。有时候事情确实如此，但其他时候并非如此，除非你让它们变成这样，除非你将其转化为这种状态。是的。没错。

It's just when I've done that. And it's the end of the day, and when I get to bed and go to sleep, there's always another thing, and it just it almost makes whatever's happening in your life into a sort of an unwelcome obstacle to getting to the end of the day or whatever. And sometimes things are like that, but other times, they're not unless you make them, unless you turn them into them. Yeah. Yeah.

所以我认为另一个特别适用于我们这些缺乏安全感的过度成就者的建议，与我们所有人都面临的信息过载有关。我想七十年代和八十年代也有缺乏安全感的过度成就者，但他们没有面对如今我们许多人面临的那种信息洪流和需要关心的事物。你提出的另一个建议是认识到我们无法关心或了解所有事情。你知道，为什么放弃试图获取尽可能多的信息如此重要？

So another tip that I think is especially relevant for we insecure overachievers has to do with the information overload that we all face. I imagine there were insecure overachievers in the seventies and eighties, but they didn't face the kind of fire hose of information and things to care about that so many of us face these days. And another tip that you've suggested is just to recognize that we can't care about or find out about everything. You know, why is this so essential to kind of give up on trying to bring in as much information as possible.

在某种程度上，这与支撑我们在这里讨论的一切以及我所写的内容的原因相同，那就是如果供应实际上是无限的，那么试图更快地处理完供应或完全掌握所有供应的尝试注定会失败，并且会导致各种意想不到的后果。所以，是的，仅仅在要阅读的东西太多这个简单问题上，你的稍后阅读应用中有太多文章，感觉它们可能在某些方面至关重要，或者对你的工作是个好主意，或者能让你更健康、更平静等等。收集这些并没有错，但我认为重要的是像我在书中说的那样，将其视为一条河流而不是一个桶。换句话说，不是把它们全部收集起来的地方，而你的任务是处理完所有内容直到桶再次清空，而是将其视为流经你身边的溪流，你从中挑选出一些并专注于它们，而不会为所有放过的内容感到内疚。

On some level, it's the same reason that sort of underpins everything I'm we've been talking about here and that I've written about, which is that if the supply is effectively infinite, then attempts to get through the supply faster or to get your arms around the supply completely are doomed to fail, and they're going to lead to all sorts of unintended consequences. So, yeah, just in that simple issue of too many things to read, too many articles in your read it later app that feel like they're probably essential in some way or could be a really good idea for your work or could make you healthier or calmer or something. There's nothing wrong with collecting those, but I think it's really important to treat them, as I say in the book, as a like a river rather than a bucket. In other words, not as some sort of place where they all collect and your job is to deal with them all until the bucket is empty again, but just as a kind of a stream that flows past you and that you pick things out and focus on them without feeling guilty about all the ones that you let go by.

你在问题末尾提到的观点，我认为对许多致力于让世界变得更美好的人来说更困难的是，这最终也必须适用于崇高事业和世界的苦难。对吧？如果这类事情的数量超出了你所能希望解决的范畴，即使是集体努力，即使是团体行动，因为团体也是有限的。它们是由有限的人组成的团体。那么要对某个特定事业或类似事情产生影响，你就必须愿意忽略其他一些，不是因为你说服自己它们不重要，而是因为对我们来说这就是现实。

And the point you alluded to at the end of your question, more difficult, I think, for many people who feel committed to making the world a better place is that this does ultimately have to apply to good causes and the suffering of the world as well. Right? If there is more of this stuff than you can hope to address, even collectively, even in groups, because they're still finite too. They are groups of finite people. Then to make any difference to a given cause or something like that, you're gonna have to be willing to neglect some others, not because you've convinced yourself they don't matter, but just because that's how it is for us.

而且，你知道，这可能意味着以某个事业为例，一个你感到被吸引想要关注的重要议题，然后说，我要选择我的战场，我不会选择那个。这不是因为它不重要，而是因为我希望在我所做的事情上产生一些影响。

And, you know, that might mean taking some instance of a cause, an important issue that you feel drawn to giving your attention to, and saying, I'm gonna pick my battles, and I'm not going to choose that one. And it's not because it doesn't matter. It's because I want to have some effect in what I do.

当你这样做时，有什么策略可以保持理智和自我同情吗？当你说，重要的事情。没时间处理那个。

Any strategies for kind of staying sane and self compassionate when you do that? When you say, important thing. Don't got time for that.

嗯，你知道，我认为最重要的是，通过反复观察和提醒自己，你忽视某些事情的原因——可能还有其他原因，但一个核心原因是：作为人类就意味着会忽视某些事情。从更实际的角度来看，有一些处理这个问题的方法。我过去曾写过关于保持两个清单的想法：一个是近乎无限的，可以包含任意多的项目；另一个则有非常固定的数量限制，你通过筛选只让大约5到10个项目进入你的待办清单，但同时你非常清楚还有500个项目在呼唤你的注意力，只是逐渐适应这种'要做的事情永远多于你能完成的事情'的状况。另一个对我有用的比喻是：理解这类清单就像是菜单。以一种奇怪的方式来说，世界上所有正在发生的苦难清单、所有需要我们关注、行动、捐款或其他支持的重要事业清单，也是一个菜单——因为菜单就是任何你必须从中选择而不是全部完成的列表。

Well, you know, I think above all, it comes from seeing and reminding yourself again and again that the reason you are neglecting some things, There may be other reasons, but one core reason that you will be neglecting some things is because being human means neglecting some things. And there are sort of ways of handling this in a more practical sense. I've written in the past about this idea of keeping two lists, one that is kind of endless and has as many items on it as you like, and then one which has a very fixed number of slots, and you feed them through so that you only ever got sort of, say, five or 10 items on your plate, but you're very well aware that there are 500 items calling out for your attention and just sort of acclimatizing to that situation of there being more to do than you ever could do. Another metaphor that works for me is to understand that these kinds of lists are menus. And in a strange, strange way, the list of all the suffering going on in the world, the list of all the critical causes needing our attention or our activism or our donations or anything else are also a menu because a menu is any list that you're gonna have to pick from instead of get through.

当你以这种方式看待它时，就有可能以更轻松的心态去面对，你知道那种感觉：你正在做一些有意义的事情，而如果你疯狂地四处奔波试图确保触及每一个项目，实际上并不会做得更多或更好。

And there is a possibility when you see it in that way of approaching it with a lighter spirit, you know, that sense that you're doing something that counts, and you actually wouldn't be doing more or better if you ran around in a frenzy trying to sort of make sure you touched every single one of those items.

所以这算是试图确保你不做所有事情。但另一个建议是关于如何处理你选择要做的事情。你曾主张我们需要更自在地选择不'全屁股投入'事情，如你所说。我想我明白这是什么意思，但什么是'全屁股投入'，为什么我们也许应该在这方面对自己更温和一些？

So that's sort of trying to make sure you don't do everything. But another tip is about how you deal with the things that you have chosen to do. And you've argued that we need to be much more comfortable choosing not to whole ass stuff, as you put it. I think I know what this means, but what is whole assing things, and why should we maybe be gentler with ourselves about that?

这是我在《华盛顿邮报》一篇文章的评论中偶然看到的一句话，来自一位女性，她说她的父母总是批评她做事'半屁股投入'，但如今作为一名事业有成的成年女性，她意识到生活中真正需要她'全屁股投入'的事情非常非常少。很多时候，'半屁股投入'就足够了。这适用于许多不同的情境。对吧？因为这完全关乎你愿意给予某事的关注度和能量多少，并且能够接受给予某事更少的精力和关注。

This is a quotation I stumbled across in the comments of a Washington Post article from a woman who says that her parents always used to get on her case about half assing things, but actually now as an adult woman with an accomplished career, she realizes there are very, very few things in life that really require her to invest her whole ass. Quite often, half assing them is fine. This applies in lots of different contexts. Right? Because it's all about the amount of attention, the amount of energy that you're willing to give something and being okay with giving something less of your energy, less of your attention.

这也与摒弃那种假设有关：即我们生活中遇到的每一件重要的事情都必须感觉困难、必须感觉非常费力。它是关于允许这种可能性：也许有些事情你可以轻松地滑过、 coast through（顺利度过）。甚至这一点很微妙。我认为这很难表达，但是，就像，即使是真正非常困难的事情，也可以以'轻松'的精神去对待。我明白我这么说的意思。

It's also to do with dropping that assumption that everything we encounter in our lives that is important has to feel difficult, has to feel very effortful. It's about allowing the possibility that maybe there are some things that you could sort of glide through and coast through. And even this is a subtle point. It's tricky to express, I think, but, like, even genuinely very difficult things can be approached in the spirit of there being easy. I know what I mean by this.

我不确定我是否完美地传达了这一点，但你可以给一个几乎注定至少会令人沮丧的过程带来轻松，比如，你知道，报税是经典的陈词滥调。而且我认为你最终可以将轻松带入比这更糟糕的情况，比如那些充满焦虑、涉及悲伤、痛苦或冲突的情境，你仍然可以不假定它必须是一个让你皱起眉头、绷紧肌肉、准备去战斗的问题。你完全可以假定，当涉及到创造性工作之类的事情时，在所有我们认为'好吧，这值得做，但我会遇到很多阻力，我必须直面并击溃这些阻力'的情境中。

I don't know that I've conveyed it perfectly, but you can bring ease to a process that is almost guaranteed to be at the very least frustrating, like, you know, filing your taxes is the classic cliche. And I think you can bring ease ultimately to situations that are much worse than, you know, fraught and involve grief or sadness or conflict, you can still not assume that it's got to be a question of furrowing your brow, bracing your muscles, and going in for a fight. And you can absolutely assume that when it comes to sort of creative work, for example, all these contexts where we we think like, okay. This is worth doing. I'm gonna come up against a lot of resistance, and I'm gonna have to punch that resistance in the face.

这就像如果你在酒吧里走向某人，准备给他一拳。对吧？他们可能本来根本没打算和你冲突，但如果你以那种态度对待你正在做的事情，他们很快就会和你冲突起来。

It's like if you walk up to someone in a bar ready to punch them in the face. Right? They may have had no plan to be in conflict with you, but they soon will be if that's the attitude that you that you take to what you're doing.

我的意思是，你在谈论在真正困难的事情上尽量不要总是全力以赴，但根据我的经验，有时候这种情况甚至出现在本应简单的事情上。对吧？比如朋友们会说，哦，我们要不要一起吃晚饭？就像，哦，好啊。来我家吃晚饭吧。

I mean, you're mentioning trying not to always whole ass things in the context of things that are really hard, but in my own experience, sometimes this comes up for me in even in things that should be easy. Right? You know, friends are like, oh, you know, should we get dinner? Like, oh, yeah. Come over the house for dinner.

然后我就会想，好吧。我要做一道很棒的主菜，还必须要有甜点。我得去酒铺挑选最合适的葡萄酒。现在这件本该让我开心的事，变成了一个充满压力的选择超载局面，我脑子里有四种不同的完美方案。无论我选择哪一种，都不会完美。

And then I'll be like, okay. I'm gonna, you know, make a really great entree, and there has to be dessert. I gotta, like, go to the wine shop to figure out the perfect wine. And now this thing that was supposed to be kind of fun for me has turned into this, like, stressful choice overloaded situation that in my brain, I have four different ideas about how to do perfectly. And whichever one I picked, it's not gonna be perfect.

没错。具体到晚餐聚会的场景，你曾主张我们需要接受'粗犷待客之道'的理念，这个观点我很喜欢。你在这里具体指的是什么？

Right. Specifically, in the dinner party context, you've argued that we need to embrace this idea of scruffy hospitality, which is one that I love. What do you mean by this here?

是的。这个说法来自田纳西州的一位圣公会牧师杰克·金。他谈论的是基于自己的亲身经历，正是这种感觉：当你像你描述的那样忍不住大张旗鼓时，除了其他方面，它还会以一种非常微妙的方式让你不太愿意将来再次这样做。对吧？因为你的某部分大脑知道这将会是一件大事。

Yeah. This phrase comes from a an Anglican pastor in Tennessee called Jack King. What he's talking about is based on his own personal experience, which is precisely this sense that when you make a big deal out of it in the way that you describe being tempted to do, apart from anything else in a very subtle way, it slightly puts you off doing it again in the future. Right? Because it's like some part of your mind knows it's gonna be a whole thing.

甚至在做的过程中，立刻就会有一种分心感，要确保你为客人营造的美好门面完好无损，一切顺利。杰克·金指出了这一点。他谈到自己经历这个过程后，和妻子决定就开始邀请人们来家里，即使房子一团糟，就用橱柜里现有的东西随便做点吃的，然后发现，首先，显然如果你允许自己这样做，请人来吃晚饭会容易得多。但是，此外，这样做还能带来一种更深层次的连接感，不仅仅是在晚宴的情况下，在生活中普遍而言，放下伪装，承认缺点和不完美，对于与人建立纽带非常有力。我在书中写到，甚至在我了解杰克·金的作品之前，如果我们要请朋友来吃晚饭，我看到冰箱下面有面包屑，或者烤面包机上莫名其妙堆着邮件之类的东西，我就会想，天啊。

And even in the doing of it, just at once, you know, there's a certain sense of being distracted by making sure that the beautiful facade you are putting on for your guest is intact, it's all going well. Jack King makes this point. He talks in going through this himself and deciding with his wife that they were going to just start inviting people around in the mess that the house was in to eat whatever they could cook with what was in the cupboards and finding, firstly, obviously, that it's a lot easier to have people around for dinner more often if you allow yourself to do that. But, also, there's a sort of depth of connection that comes from that, and there is something about not just in the case of dinner parties, but in life in general, there's something about dropping the facade, owning up to the faults and the imperfections that is very powerful in terms of forging bonds with people. And I write in the book about how, you know, even before I encountered Jack King's work, if if we were gonna have friends around for dinner and I saw, like, crumbs underneath the fridge or kind of mail stacked on the toaster for no reason or something, I'd be like, oh my goodness.

比如，得把这个清理干净。太糟糕了。我们住在猪圈里。但如果我在别人家看到这种情况，我根本不会有那种反应。事实上，我会觉得能被允许进入他们的真实生活是一种荣幸。

Like, clean this up. It's awful. We live in a live in a pigsty. But if I ever saw that at somebody else's house, I wouldn't have that reaction at all. And in fact, I would feel kind of privileged to have been let in to their real lives.

简单说一下，这也总是让我想起当我写电子邮件通讯的时候，你知道，我试图提供见解、想法，有时是关于如何以某种方式做事的技巧。而我得到最积极反馈的时候，往往是我非常公开地承认自己仍然在某个问题上挣扎，而我正在就这个问题提供建议，因为仅仅知道我们都同舟共济就是一种连接。没有人会相信你邀请来吃晚饭的人，他们的房子有一半时间不也是乱糟糟的。我们都知道这一点。所以，我们竖起了一种屏障，并且我们都不得不继续相信某种东西。

Just briefly, one of the things that it also always reminds me of is when I'm writing my email newsletter, you know, I try to offer insights and thoughts and sometimes tips on how to do things in a certain way. Times I get the most positive feedback is when I sort of admit very openly to still struggling with some issue and that I'm offering advice about because there is a connection in just knowing that we're all in this boat together. And nobody believes that the people you're inviting to dinner don't also have messy houses half the time. We all know this stuff. And so there's a kind of a a barrier that we're putting up and a thing we all have to go on believing.

如果我们放下戒备，或许反而能更好地彼此连接。

And if we just dropped it, we might actually connect better to each other.

是的。心理学家谈到这种被称为'美丽混乱效应'的认知偏差。对吧？我们总觉得，比如有人来家里看到地板上的面包屑，如果我们在职业领域展现脆弱，别人就会不喜欢或评判我们，这会让人疏远我们。人们可能会觉得我们太凌乱什么的。

Yeah. Psychologists talk about this bias that's called the beautiful mess effect. Right? So we have this sense that, like, somebody comes over our house and they see the crumbs on the floor, if we're vulnerable, you know, in our professions, that people will not like us or judge us or that will distance people from us. People will kind of think we're too messy or something.

但所有研究都表明，那些看到地板上面包屑或感受到些许脆弱的人，其实非常喜欢这样。他们会感觉与我们更亲密，更喜欢我们。对吧？

But all the research suggests that the recipients of that kind of crumbs on the floor or a little bit of vulnerability, they really like it. They feel much more connected to us. They like us better. Right?

真有趣。

Fascinating.

这就是美丽混乱效应——当我们展现混乱时，人们实际上很喜欢。他们觉得这很美好，很能拉近距离。但我们的思维却认为不需要这样做。我最近就深有体会。

This is the beautiful mess effect is that when we're messy, people actually like it. They find it beautiful. They find it connecting. But, like, our minds assume that that we don't have to do this. This came up really recently for me.

我朋友刚生了个两周大的新生儿，我去送食物时，到了他们家发现他们有个

My friend just had a newborn baby, two week old baby, and I was coming by to drop off food. And, you know, and I showed up, and they have a

两周大的婴儿。而他们正

two week old baby. And they're you

你知道吗，她当时正试着喂奶，然后有人想帮忙放东西，结果各种东西散落得到处都是。他们对此感到非常尴尬，但我觉得这没什么。这很酷，对吧？就像，我看到了尿布之类的东西，真正窥见了你生活的真实模样。

know, she was trying to nurse and, like, somebody was trying to put and there's kind of stuff all over the place. And they were really embarrassed by this, but I'm like, no. This is cool. Right? Like, I'm seeing, like, you know, like, what the nappies are and getting, like, a real glimpse into what your life is actually like.

那种感觉让我觉得，当我看到他的真实生活时，我反而与他更亲近了，而不是如果一切都光鲜完美、假装出来的样子，或者如果我只能把食物放在门口就离开，因为他们太尴尬不敢让我进门。

Like, it felt I felt more connected to him then when I kinda saw his real life than I would have if, you know, it was all polished and perfect and pretend, or if I just had to, like, drop the food off at the door because they were, you know, too embarrassed to let me in.

对，对。作为一个家里非常整洁的人，在新生儿出生后的几周里，可能把优先级搞错了，对吧？

Right. Right. And as someone with a very tidy house in the weeks after a newborn baby has arrived has is possibly got wrong priorities. Right?

有问题。真的有点不对劲。是的。

Something's wrong. Something's really messed up. Yeah.

多亏了奥利弗，我现在可以坦然承认我的办公室可能有点乱。更别提我车里的情况了。但奥利弗的下一个建议真的戳中了我。为什么我总是忍不住担心未来？广告之后我们一起来寻找答案。

Thanks to Oliver, I now don't mind admitting that my office can be a bit messy. Don't even get me started about the inside of my car. But Oliver's next tip really hits home. Why is it that I can't stop worrying about the future? We'll find out after the break.

每年夏天让我感到快乐的事情之一，就是在侧门廊上种几盆迷你南瓜。我不是园艺高手，但我一直在寻找帮助我的小南瓜茁壮成长的好方法。这就是为什么当我听说Mill时如此兴奋。Mill是一款轻松无味的食物回收器。你问什么是食物回收器？

One of the things that gives me joy every summer is growing a few pots of mini pumpkins on my side porch. I'm no gardener, but I'm always looking for good ways to help my baby pumpkins thrive. And that's why I was so excited to hear about Mill. Mill is an effortless, odorless food recycler. What's a food recycler, you ask?

嗯，你知道所有那些食物残渣

Well, you know all those food scraps you

每次做饭时都扔进垃圾桶

toss into the garbage every time you cook

或者冰箱里放了很久的外卖盒子，虽然需要扔掉但你知道会很臭？有了Mill，你可以把所有废弃食物变成对地球和南瓜有益的东西。现在我有了自己的Mill，我有点喜欢处理所有厨余垃圾，这让我感到快乐，因为知道我的垃圾不会伤害地球。更少愧疚，更多快乐。但Mill最让我喜欢的是完全没有异味，一点都没有。

or that random carton of takeout that's been in your fridge forever that you kinda need to toss out, but you know it's gonna be stinky? Well, with Mill, you can take all that dead food and turn it into something that's good for the planet and for pumpkins. Now that I have my own Mill, I kinda love getting rid of all my scraps, and that gives me the joy of knowing that I'm not hurting the planet with my waste. Less guilt and more joy. But my favorite thing about mill is that there's no smell, like none at all.

Mill让你轻松为地球做好事，没有臭味和杂乱。Mill是在家中防止食物浪费最干净、最简单的方式。它让保持食物远离垃圾桶变得像扔进去一样简单。前往mill.com/thl可享受75美元优惠。Auto Trader由Auto Intelligence驱动，这是购买汽车的超级个性化方式。

Mill makes it easy to do something good for the planet without the stink or the mess. Mill is the cleanest, easiest way to prevent food waste at home. It makes keeping food out of the trash as easy as dropping it in. Go to mill.com/thl for $75 off a Mill. Auto Trader is powered by Auto Intelligence, the hyper personalized way to buy a car.

AutoTrader的工具会根据你的确切预算和偏好同步，完全为你量身定制购车体验。预算功能让你输入信息查看价格范围内的列表。搜索和库存功能帮助你精准找到梦想之车。你可以选择新车或二手车、车型样式以及发动机大小、颜色等特性，甚至可以细化到是否需要拖车挂钩。尽管挑剔选择吧。

AutoTrader's tools sync with your exact budget and preferences to tailor the car shopping experience totally to you. Budgeting lets you input your info to see listings in your price range. Search and inventory helps zero in on your dream car. You can choose from new or pre owned, the style of the car, and the features like engine size, color, all the way down to whether you want a trailer hitch. Go ahead and get picky.

不用担心无休止地滚动浏览。由auto intelligence驱动的Auto Trader只根据你能负担得起和想要的车辆来展示。价格功能显示哪些列表是最划算的交易，让你感觉像赢得了谈判而无需实际讨价还价。你甚至可以选择如何完成交易：在线、在经销商处或两者结合。由auto intelligence驱动的Auto Trader让购车过程不再那么繁琐。

Don't worry about scrolling endlessly. Auto Trader powered by auto intelligence only shows you vehicles based on what you can afford and what you want. And pricing shows you which listings are the best deal so you can feel like you're winning the negotiation without negotiating. You can even choose how to close the deal, online, at the dealership, or a little of both. Auto Trader powered by auto intelligence makes the process of buying a car less of a process.

今天就试试吧。访问autotrader.com找到你的完美座驾。大家好，我是来自幸福实验室的Laurie Santos博士。在讲课、写作和播客之间，我学到了留出时间充电是至关重要的。

Try it today. Visit autotrader.com to find your perfect ride. Hey there. It's doctor Laurie Santos from the Happiness Lab. Between lectures, writing, and podcasting, I've learned that building in time to recharge is essential.

对我来说，这有时意味着计划一个周末外出反思。我喜欢Airbnb让这种旅行变得简单。无论是用于阅读和写日记的安静小屋，还是靠近我一直想参观的博物馆的明亮城市公寓，我都能找到完全符合当下需求的空间。如果你一直在考虑今年秋天如何重置生活或让空间为你更高效工作，有没有考虑过在Airbnb上 hosting？这是一个聪明、灵活的赚取额外收入的方式。

For me, that sometimes means planning a weekend away to reflect. I love that Airbnb makes that kind of travel easy. Whether it's a quiet cabin for reading and journaling or a bright city apartment close to a museum I've been meaning to visit, I can find a space that fits exactly what I need in that moment. And if you've been thinking about ways to reset this fall or make your space work a little harder for you, have you considered hosting on Airbnb? It's a smart, flexible way to earn extra income.

你可以在方便时接待房客，甚至用这笔额外收入来资助自己未来的旅行，无论大小。你的房子可能比你想象的更值钱。在airbnb.com/host上了解详情。在《幸福实验室》节目中，我们经常颂扬正念带来的幸福益处。自从制作这个节目以来，我变得更擅长将沉思扼杀在萌芽状态，不再纠结于过去的烦恼，但对于未来的事情，我仍然有些挣扎。

You can host when it works for you and even use that extra cash to fund your own future getaways, big or small. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com/host. Here on The Happiness Lab, we often extol the happiness virtues of mindfulness. Since making the show, I've gotten better at nipping rumination in the bud and taking my mind off worries from the past, but I still struggle a bit with what's around the corner.

因为说实话，未来真的很可怕。它充满了无法控制的事情和可能没有准备好应对的事件。在某些日子里，当我的思绪开始奔涌时，感觉一切都会变成一场彻底的灾难。作家奥利弗·伯克曼在他的新书《凡人之冥想》中用了相当篇幅来探讨我们对未来的恐惧，他应对这种恐惧的建议可以用他小时候学到的一句谚语来概括。

Because let's face it, the future is really scary. It's full of things I can't control and events I may not be prepared to deal with. On days when my mind gets going, it can feel like it's all gonna be a total disaster. Author Oliver Berkman dedicates a decent chunk of his new book, Meditations for Mortals, to our fears about the future, and his tip for dealing with that dread can be summed up by a saying that he was taught as a child.

我想你指的是那句'船到桥头自然直'，对吧？我觉得这句话可能被对我说了上千次，直到我才真正理解它是一个多么有力的想法。因为，当然，你知道，在某种意义上这是同义反复。你只能在到达桥的时候才能过桥

The phrase I think you're referring to is just that we'll cross that bridge when we come to it, right, which I feel like had been said to me probably thousands of times by the time that I felt like I really understood what a powerful thought it is. Because, of course, you know, it's tautological in some sense. You can only cross a

船到桥头自然直。

bridge when you come to it.

我认为我们任何容易焦虑或担忧的人——我甚至可以说，担忧就是试图在脑海中走过所有可能遇到的桥，并安慰自己能够成功穿越。但当然，你永远无法对未来事物获得那种安全感，因为它们还在未来。所以我认为这解释了担忧的那种强迫性特质。对吧？你一遍又一遍地绕圈子，希望这次能得到 reassurance，但你永远得不到，因为你无法以这种方式对未来感到安心。

I think any of us who are prone to anxiety or worry I think what worry is, you could even say, is the attempt to sort of think our way over every possible bridge that we could come up to and reassure ourselves that we can successfully traverse it. But, of course, you can't ever find that kind of security about things that are in the future because they are in the future. And so I think that explains the sort of compulsive quality of worry. Right? You go round and round and round hoping this time you'll get the reassurance, and you never do because you can't be reassured in that way about the future.

当你开始真正感受到这种情况的绝对不可避免和无法回避时，我认为正是在那里，你实际上可以让未来更多地保持其未来的本质。如果你认为在到达桥之前过桥非常困难，那么你会继续这样做并挣扎。如果你认为这是不可能的，你可能会稍微放松，在当下对未来的事情感到放松。我在那里引用了马可·奥勒留的话，他是一位伟大的斯多葛派哲学家和皇帝，基本上是说，不要过多担心未来的事情，因为你会用与应对当下事物相同的内心资源来面对它们。我经常想对别人和自己说这句话。

And when you start to really feel into how absolutely inevitable and unavoidable this situation is, I think there is where you can actually let the future be the future a bit more. If you think it's very difficult to cross bridges before you come to them, then you'll keep doing it and struggling. If you think it's impossible, you might unclench a bit, and you might relax in the present about the future. And there's a quote I mentioned there from Marcus Aurelius, a great stoic philosopher and emperor, who says, basically, don't worry so much about things in the future because you'll meet them with the same inner resources that you meet the things within the present. And I often want to say this to people and to myself as well.

对吧？就像你生命中的每一次，当你认为自己无法应对某件事时，你都走到了现在。事实证明你可以。所以至少有一个理由支持这样的想法：那些你认为自己无法应对的未来事情，实际上你能够应对。

Right? It's like you got to this point every single time you thought you couldn't handle something in your life. Turns out you could. So there's at least a reason to on the side of thinking that the future things you think you won't be able to handle, you actually will.

但是，现在跳入未来也会搞乱那些时刻，比如当你真的担心或害怕某个未来事件，而它实际上根本不会以你想象的方式发生。我最近就遇到了这种情况。我大约两周前刚从新冠中恢复，感染的是那种让我完全失去嗅觉的新变种。在失去嗅觉的第一天，我就想，天啊，我的嗅觉永远消失了。

But, also, jumping into the future now also messes up these times when, like, you're really worried or horrified about some future event that's, like, not even gonna happen in the way you think. This came up for me recently. I just recovered from COVID about a couple weeks ago, and I had this new variant where I completely lost my sense of smell. And on day one of losing my sense of smell, I was like, oh my god. My smell is gone forever.

我再也没法做饭了。是啊，这该怎么办？我在网上订购了这些嗅觉训练套件，想开始训练我的嗅觉。我读了一大堆神经科学论文，关于如果嗅觉消失了该怎么恢复之类的。

I'm never gonna be able to cook. Yeah. What can I do with this? I ordered these, like, smell kits online so I could start training my smell. I read all these neuroscience papers on, like, how do you get your smell back if it's gone and blah blah blah.

是啊，是啊。

Yeah. Yeah.

是啊，我还向我可怜的制片人抱怨——他现在正在听——说我再也恢复不了嗅觉了，我该怎么应对？然后，在我的鼻塞好了两三天后，嗅觉就慢慢回来了。但是，那三天我完全活在恐惧中，就像世界末日一样。我的整个生活似乎都围绕着这个问题。

Yeah. I complained to my poor producer who's listening right now about how I was never gonna get my smell back, and how can I deal with this? And then, like, two days or three days after my stuffy nose cleared up, it kinda just came back. But, like, those three days were spent in utter horror, like, planet. Like, my whole life was, like, built around.

比如，既然我再也闻不到味道了，我该怎么正常生活？这完全是徒劳的，因为嗅觉其实自己就慢慢回来了。但当时，我觉得唯一能做的就是焦虑地试图为这个可怕的未来做计划。

Like, what can I do to live life normally given that I'm just never gonna be able to smell again? And that was, like, utterly futile because, like, it kinda just came back in a way. But but at the time, it felt like the only thing I could do would be to anxiously try to plan for this terrible future.

是啊。

Yeah.

那么，有什么建议可以停止这种反复思考和担忧，停止对未来进行规划，尤其是在感觉无法控制的时候？我们该如何像马可·奥勒留那样深呼吸，告诉自己一切都会好起来的？

And so any advice for how to stop the rumination and stop the worrying and future planning when it feels like? Like, how do we take the sort of Marcus Aurelius breath and be like, it's gonna be alright?

嗯，我发现很多益处来自于偶遇，而且

Well, I find a lot of the benefit to me comes from encounter, and

我完全明白你在说什么。你知道吗？就是那种很多

I know exactly what you're talking about. You know? That that that a lot of

益处确实来自于思考这类短语，而我这本新书的部分构想就是要创建一个结构，让那些视角转换能够深入你的内心。灵性作家迈克尔·辛格还有一个美妙的见解，他说现实不需要你来帮忙运作，我认为这是一个非常有力的洞见。

the benefit does come from pondering these kinds of phrases, and part of the idea for this new book of mine is to kind of create a structure in which those kind of perspective shifts can sink under your skin as it were. There's another lovely insight from the spiritual writer, Michael Singer, who says reality doesn't need you to help operate it, which I think is a very powerful insight.

这句话也引起了我的共鸣。感觉真的被说中了。谢谢迈克尔·塞耶。是的。在

That one resonates with me too. Feel really called out. Thanks, Michael Sayer. Yeah. In

更实用的方面，我的意思是，我认为在你谈到的那种情境下，有一个方法可能出乎意料地有用——我猜这应该叫做担忧推迟法之类的，但不确定是否准确——就是在你的日历、年度计划表或手机上的任何地方标记一下，在两三周后允许自己再次为那件事真正抓狂。这样既能现在创造一小片平静，也能提醒你（你会发现一次又一次地验证），等到那个时间段过去时，那件事已经不再是问题，而且根本不重要了。直到今天我仍然对某些事情这样做。如果我特别担心育儿或家庭财务的某个方面，我会想：首先，如果我这件事做得很糟糕，而且已经糟糕了好几年，那再多两周也不会有什么差别。所以现在，让我在日历上设置一个两周后的提醒，看看如果我只是推迟担忧会怎样。

terms of something more practical, I mean, one thing that I I think can be surprisingly useful in the context like you talk about there is sort of I expect this is called something like worry postponement, but I don't know if it really is right, which is place a marker in your calendar, on your year planner, whatever it is, on your phone that in two weeks or three weeks, you will allow yourself once more to really, like, freak out about that thing so as to just create a little island of calm right now and also to remind you, as you will find again and again and again, that by the time that that period has elapsed, the thing is no longer an issue, and it didn't matter. I I do do this to this day with certain things. If I'm sort of particularly concerned about some aspect of parenting or aspect of household finances or something, I'll be like, first of all, if I'm doing this really badly and I've been doing it really badly for years, like, two more weeks isn't gonna make a difference. So for now, let me just put something in the calendar for two weeks ahead from now and see what it's like if I just postpone it.

这方法并不完美。你仍然会有点担心，但它确实创造了空间，让你能在两周后看到实际上事情并没有那么糟糕。

And it's not perfect. You still worry a bit, but it does create space, and it enables you to see two weeks later that actually the thing doesn't feel so bad.

我听到这些例子笑了，因为我的制作人瑞安（他正在线上，经常帮我推迟忧虑）在我这次感染新冠时给我发短信说：我们至少等你检测转阴24小时后再担心你永远闻不到味道了吧？所以我认为这种在忧虑时善待自己的想法，引向了你书中我最喜欢的最后一个建议——我们都应该遵循反向黄金法则，这与我们播客中经常讨论的许多建议非常一致。那么什么是反向黄金法则呢？

I was laughing at those examples because my producer, Ryan, who's on the line, who's often the one that helps me postpone my worry, literally sent me a text when I was in this COVID situation where he said, why don't we wait at least twenty four hours till till you're testing negative to freak out that you're never gonna be able to smell again? And so but but I think this idea of sort of being kind to ourselves when they're we're in the midst of worry, I think, gets to the last tip that I love so much in your book, which is this idea that we all need to follow the reverse golden rule, which is very consistent with a lot of advice we talk about on this podcast. So what's the reverse golden rule?

我所知道的反向黄金法则版本来自哲学家Ido Landau，其核心思想是你不应该以自己不愿对待他人的方式来对待自己，特别是对待朋友。我确实一直在与自我慈悲这个概念作斗争。对吧？这绝对是一个完整的世界观。虽然很明显这是件好事，但我一直对它有种抵触，这可能恰恰表明我真正需要它，因为那种尴尬的反应通常都是这样的信号。

The reverse golden rule in the the version I know comes from the philosopher Ido Landau, and it's just the idea that you should not treat yourself in ways that you wouldn't treat others, specifically other friends, I think. I've definitely struggled with the whole notion of self compassion. Right? There's definitely this whole world. I think it's fairly obvious that this is a good thing, but I have always had a sort of an aversion to it that probably is a sign that I really need it because that's what those kind of cringe reactions usually are.

但让我理解这一点的关键时刻是意识到，人们多么习惯于用某种声音、某种内心独白整天责备自己，而这些方式是你绝不会对同事或朋友做的。我的意思是，如果你这样对待同事，可能会被解雇。书中有精神分析学家Adam Phillips的一句话：如果你在社交场合遇到你脑海中的这个人，你只会觉得他们有问题。他说，这个人只会既无聊又残忍，我觉得这个说法很精辟。因此我从中领悟到：对于那些反感任何要求我们认为自己特别重要、是宇宙中心、要给自己倾注爱意的人来说，其实完全不是这样。

But a big moment for me in understanding this was to realize how common it is to sort of berate yourself in a in a voice, in a monologue through the day or whatever it might be, in ways that you just would never dream of doing to a colleague or a friend. I mean, you'd probably get fired if you did it to a colleague. There's a quote in the in the book from the psychoanalyst Adam Phillips who says, if you met this person in your in your head in a social context, you'd just think there was something wrong with them. He says, he would just be boring and cruel, which I think is brilliant. And so what I take from this is for those of us who are averse to any idea that we're being asked to think of ourselves as incredibly special and as the center of the universe and showering ourselves with love, it's like, no.

只是不要对自己比对他人的态度更刻薄、更不友好。这对我来说非常可行。就像是，哦，好吧。是的。我觉得基本上我是个好人。

It's just don't be more mean and less friendly to yourself than you would be to other people. And this feels very manageable to me. It's like, oh, okay. Yes. I'm a nice person, basically, I think.

我不会这样对待我关心的任何人，那么为什么不对自己也这样呢？当然，这只是在发现自己骂自己笨蛋或类似行为时及时察觉的问题。但我认为这种自我友善的概念确实将其简化为一个可操作的概念。

I wouldn't do that to anyone I cared about, so how about I don't do it to myself too? And, of course, it's just a matter of catching yourself in the act of pulling yourself an idiot or whatever it is. But I think that idea of just self friendliness really sort of cuts it down to a manageable concept.

我很喜欢你甚至把这个遵循反向黄金法则的概念也称为可操作的。对吧？这不是说要对自己完美无缺或者时刻充满同情心。只是不要对待自己比对待其他通情达理的人更差。

And I love that you've made even this concept of following the reverse golden rule, one that you just called manageable. Right? It's not like being perfect to yourself and compassionate all the time. It's just like not treating yourself worse than you would treat another reasonable Right.

而你以友好方式对待他人并不总是需要自我放纵。对吧？有时候你可能拒绝在深夜再给朋友买一杯酒之类的。对吧？有时候需要坚定立场。

And the way that you treat other people in a friendly way does not always need to be self indulgent. Right? There are times when you might decline to buy your friend another drink at the end of the night or something like that. Right? There are times when firmness is called for.

所以严厉的爱在这里也有空间，但这是出于友好的理由，而不是我们经常对自己做的那种只是对自己大喊大叫的行为。

So tough love has a space here, but it's clearly done for friendly reasons as opposed to what we're often doing to ourselves, which is just sort of screaming and yelling at ourselves.

还有另一件事我们不应该对自己大喊大叫的，就是关于不完美主义的理念。我想你在书的结尾提出了一个非常重要的建议，就像我们刚刚讨论了所有这些让你变得更不完美主义的方法，但你不能以完美主义的态度来对待自己的不完美主义。我很高兴你在书中包含了这个建议，因为我正需要它，因为我当时准备以最极端、像军训教官一样的方式投入到不完美主义中。那么，对于如何以不完美的方式尝试不完美，你有什么建议吗？

And another thing we shouldn't scream and yell at ourselves about is the idea of imperfectionism. You end your book, I think, with one really important tip, which is like, we've just talked about all these ways you can become more imperfectionist, but you can't take a perfectionist attitude towards your own imperfectionism, which I'm glad was a tip that you had in the book because it was one that I needed because I was ready to I was ready to jump in to imperfectionism in the most extreme drill sergeant y way. So any advice for how we could try to be imperfect in an imperfect way?

我想，你知道，就是看到它，提醒自己。对，完全正确。很容易把任何有用的想法，甚至是那些试图抵制那种绝对主义完美主义立场的思想，变成你要试图完美完成的新事物，并且在你完成它们之前不允许自己充分展现生活。

I think, you know, just seeing it, reminding yourself. Right. Exactly. It is so easy to take any useful idea, even ideas which seek to push back against that sort of absolutist perfectionistic stance, and turn them into new things that you're going to try to do perfectly and won't allow yourself to fully show up in life for until you've done them.

你现在算是不完美主义的专家了，但你是那种有不安全感的过度成就者倾向的人。你是如何成为不完美主义导师但又没有走极端的？

You are now kind of an expert on imperfectionism, but you're the kind of person who has these insecure overachiever tendencies. How have you kind of become an imperfectionism guru but not gone too far with it?

嗯，你知道，我认为我经常有走极端的危险，但我认为这个问题的答案（如果有的话）是在生活中找到方法不断回归这些思想和材料。所以，你知道，不是要过多自我推销，但《凡人之冥想》的结构是一个四周的结构，在那28天期间每天有一章，旨在帮助对抗那种认为这是一次性就能搞定的事情的风险。正如你所说，在最后部分我提到，不要真的期望在四周内彻底改变你的生活。如果你一直在关注我们所说的，我希望你理解这一点。那并不是目标。

Well, you know, I think I'm often in danger of going too far, but I but I think that the answer to that such as there is one is to find ways in your life to keep returning to these ideas and this material. So, you know, not to self promote too much, but the structure of Meditations for Mortals is a four week structure with a day's chapter for each day of that twenty eight day period is designed to feed into that to counter the risk of thinking that this is something that you can get once and for all. And as you say, right at the end, I say, don't actually expect to completely transform your life in four weeks. If you've been following what we're saying, I hope you understood this point. That was not the goal.

对我来说，这方面另一个非常重要的方面就是任何形式的日记。对吧？所以晨间笔记是几十年来真正坚持下来的一个习惯，不是因为我决定要每天做并在日程表上打勾，而是因为它对我非常有用，我自然就想做。所以我从来不需要强迫自己去做。有时候，尤其是成为父母后，我不一定有机会做，但那是另一点了。

Another aspect of this for me that I think is really important in my life is just any form of journaling. Right? So morning pages is the one habit that has really stuck with me for decades now, not because I decided I was going to do it every day and mark it off on a schedule, but because it was so useful for me that I just naturally wanted to do it. So I never have to sort of make myself do that. Sometimes, especially since becoming a parent, I don't necessarily get the opportunity to do it, but that's a different point.

任何你以那种方式反思自己想法的事情，对我来说，都有让你保持诚实、保持在这条直线上，并让你意识到什么时候你又陷入了'哦，这是一个你要把它变成完美事物的新东西'的想法。即使是那样也几乎太过分了。对吧？即使在那里，我也不想给人们那种如果他们只是每天做晨间笔记就万事大吉的想法。我无论如何都在刻意试图不断颠覆那种认为有一个系统可以为你代劳、然后你就不需要真正展现自己的观念。

And anything where you're just sort of reflecting your thoughts back to yourself in that way, to me, has the effect of sort of keeping you honest, keeping you on a straight line here, and making you realize when you are running away with the idea of, oh, this is a new thing you're gonna make into a perfect thing. Even that is almost too much. Right? Even there, I don't wanna I don't wanna give people the idea that if they just do morning pages every day, it's sorted. I am deliberately attempting anyway to sort of constantly pull the rug from under this notion that there's a system that will do it for you, and then you get to not really show up.

正是要锻炼那种不那样做的肌肉，不断地回归到我们始终所处的真实、混乱、不完美的现实中。

It's precisely working the muscle of not doing that and of coming back and back and back to the real messy, imperfect reality that we're always in.

哦，我想每个人都在不断成长中。所以

Oh, everybody's a work in progress, I suppose. So

完全正确。无论发生什么，我们都会迎接那一刻，那一刻，再那一刻。

Absolutely. And whatever happens, we'll meet that moment and that moment and then that moment.

我认为这是对人生一个美好而令人安慰的总结。生活是一系列的时刻，我们会像处理刚刚过去的时刻一样去面对它们。我们永远不会完美，总会有些混乱，但我们会没事的。事实上，如果我们能接纳不完美，我认为我们甚至可能不仅仅是没事而已。

I think that's a nice and comforting sum up of life. It's a series of moments that we'll meet much as we've handled the moment that just passed. We'll never be perfect. We'll always be messy, but we'll be okay. In fact, if we can embrace imperfection, I think we might even be more than just okay.

我认为我们最终可能会变得更快乐。所以这就是新季度里你的第一份指南。简单回顾一下，这里再次列出奥利弗的建议。第一，你必须行动起来。不要陷入完美主义的幻想计划阶段。

I think we might just wind up becoming happier. So that's your first how to guide in this new season. And just to recap, here are Oliver's tips one more time. First, you gotta do things. Don't get stuck in that perfectionist fantasy planning phase.

投身其中，开始行动。建议二，反击生产力债务。你不需要通过完成一大堆待办事项来证明自己的存在价值。建议三是记住信息过载是有代价的。所以要抵制囤积所有可能知识的冲动，以及关心一切的冲动。

Dive in and get going. Tip number two, fight back against productivity debt. You don't need to justify your existence by getting through some huge to do list. Tip number three is to remember that there's a cost to information overload. So resist the urge to stockpile all the knowledge possible and the urge to care about everything.

你必须学会放下一些重要的事情。建议四是拒绝总是全力以赴的冲动。争取做到80%，记住随性待客之道的好处。建议五，让未来顺其自然。有很多桥等我们到了自然会过。

You've gotta just let some important things go. Tip number four is to reject the urge to always whole ass stuff. Shoot for 80% and remember the benefits of scruffy hospitality. Tip number five, let the future be the future. There are lots of bridges we'll cross when we get there.

建议六，一点自我同情心大有帮助。最后一条建议，第七点，是不要用完美主义的态度对待不完美主义。我们下一期指南节目将基于你刚刚听到的内容展开，是一份关于如何知足的指南。下次节目，《幸福实验室》与劳里·桑托斯博士再会。

Tip number six, a little self compassion goes a long way. And the final tip, number seven, is not to bring a perfectionist attitude towards imperfectionism. And so our next how to episode will build on what you've just heard. It's a guide on how to be enough. That's all next time on The Happiness Lab with me, doctor Laurie Santos.

美国军事大学是美国为军人和退伍军人提供教育的头号机构。他们提供真正独特的服务，为整个家庭提供特殊优惠和助学金，不仅让服役人员能够负担得起教育，也让他们的亲人受益。如果您有军人或退伍军人家属，并正在寻找负担得起的高质量教育，AMU是您的理想选择。请访问amu.apus.edu/military了解更多信息。

American Military University is the number one provider education to our military and veterans in the country. They offer something truly unique, special rates and grants for the entire family, making education affordable not just for those who serve, but also for their loved ones. If you have a military or veteran family member and are looking for affordable, high quality education, AMU is the place for you. Visit amu. A p u s dot e d u slash military to learn more.

网址是amu.apus.edu/military。

That's amu.apus.edu/military.

这是BetterHelp的广告。我们都曾有过那种难忘的拼车经历。途中最好的朋友知道你渴望去葡萄牙寻找自我。这是人之常情。我们都希望有人倾听，但并非每个人都有能力提供帮助。

This is an ad by BetterHelp. We've all had that epic rideshare experience. Halfway through your best friends, and they know your aspirations to go find yourself in Portugal. It's human. We're all looking for someone to listen, but not everyone is equipped to help.

凭借十多年的经验，BetterHelp为您匹配合适的治疗师。看看为什么他们在170万次客户会话评价中获得4.9分的高分。访问betterhelp.com，首月可享10%折扣。

With over a decade of experience, BetterHelp matches you with the right therapist. See why they have a 4.9 rating out of 1,700,000 client session reviews. Visit betterhelp.com for 10% off your first month.

我是《幸福实验室》的劳里·桑托斯博士。如果您曾感到失衡，有时换个环境是最好的重置方式。达美航空邀请四位创作者探索一个想法：如果旅行不仅仅是移动，而是在行进中充电呢？结果如何？

This is doctor Laurie Santos from The Happiness Lab. If you've ever felt off balance, sometimes a change of scenery is the best reset. Delta invited four creators to explore one idea. What if travel isn't just movement, but recharging in motion? And the results?

根据他们的Oura Ring睡眠评分，每个人醒来时都感觉更加精力充沛，并且清晰的思维在旅行结束后持续很久。与达美一起，飞得更好，活得更好。请在达美的YouTube频道上探索完整旅程。

Based on their Oura Ring sleep scores, everyone met the day feeling more rested, and a sense of clarity stayed long after the trip. With Delta, fly and live better. Explore the whole journey on Delta's YouTube channel.

这是iHeart播客。

This is an iHeart podcast.