如何做出更好的选择（与巴里·施瓦茨一起）

这里是iHeart播客。《幸福实验室》由Amica保险荣誉赞助。人们说，欲速则不达，但若想行远，需结伴同行。选择Amica，您将获得一家为顾客而建的互助保险公司的保障。

This is an iHeart podcast. The Happiness Lab is proudly sponsored by Amica Insurance. They say if you want to go fast, go alone. But if you want to go far, go together. When you go with Amica, you're getting coverage from a mutual insurer that's built for their customers.

他们将与您共同守护重要事物。汽车、房屋、人寿等各类保险，Amica一应俱全。Amica致力于保护您最珍视的一切。立即访问amica.com获取报价。

So they'll help look after what's important to you together. Auto, home, life, and more. Amica has you covered. At Amica, they'll help protect what matters most to you. Visit amica.com and get a quote today.

幸福愈发难觅，何不前往空间最小却幸福活动最密集之地？这样您几乎注定能邂逅快乐。罗德岛州集美丽海滩、国际美食与省钱优惠于1214平方英里的土地上，浓缩的快乐无出其右。前往这个精彩州度提升幸福概率——罗德岛，应有尽有。

Happiness is getting harder to come by, so why not go somewhere with the most happiness inducing activities in the smallest amount of space? That way, you're practically guaranteed to find some happiness. In Rhode Island, between the beautiful beaches, international cuisine, and money saving deals, there's more packed into 1,214 square miles than anywhere else. Increase your chances of happiness with a getaway to this spectacular state. Rhode Island, all that.

立即登录visitrhodeisland.com规划行程。我们总以为自己清楚择偶标准——高挑、幽默、特定职业，但研究显示我们往往无法准确预测谁能带来幸福。正如《幸福实验室》常言，大脑会欺骗我们，包括对幸福关系所需条件的认知。保持好奇心至关重要。

Plan your trip today at visitrhodeisland.com. That's visitrhodeisland.com. We often think we know our type in dating, tall, funny, a certain job, but the research shows we're usually not the best predictors of who will actually make us the happiest. As we often say on The Happiness Lab, our minds lie to us about all kinds of stuff, and that definitely includes the kinds of things we need to be happy in a relationship. That's why it helps to stay curious.

在Bumble，共同兴趣和问答功能让您能直接从资料发现契合点，比如都爱烹饪或怀旧剧集。这些功能助您展现个性，邂逅懂您的人。照片和身份验证确保交流对象真实可信，让约会更安心。当您将约会视为探索而非固守标准时，更幸福深刻的联结自会降临。或许您的真命天子/女并非高冷神秘型——

On Bumble, features like shared interests and prompts make it easy to notice right on someone's profile initial sparks of compatibility, like a shared love of cooking or the same nostalgic TV shows. Shared interests and prompts let you showcase your personality right on your profile and connect with people who get your vibe. And with photo and ID verification, you can feel confident the person you're talking to is real, so you can date with a bit more confidence. When you treat dating as exploration instead of sticking to a rigid type, you open yourself up to happier, more meaningful connections. So maybe your type isn't tall, dark, and mysterious.

而是与您同样痴迷播客的灵魂。保持开放与好奇，让惊喜发生。立即下载Bumble。Pushkin。我们2025年度最爱图书系列临近尾声，今日推荐直击我的长期困扰：如何优化决策。

Maybe it's loves podcast as much as you do. Stay open, stay curious, and let yourself be surprised. Download Bumble today. Pushkin. We're finally winding down our series on my favorite books of 2025, and today's favorite book choice deals with a problem that I struggle with a lot, how to make better decisions.

幸福源于既定境遇中的选择。有些选择显而易见，如房间闷热时开窗，或口渴时喝水。但重大人生抉择——择偶、职业、定居地——常令人踌躇，这很合理。选择越重大，对生活和幸福的影响潜力越大。当面临重大决策时，您该如何应对？

Our happiness is shaped by the choices we make within the circumstances we're given. Sometimes those choices feel obvious, like whether to open a window when the room you're in is feeling stuffy or whether to grab a glass of water if you're feeling parched. But bigger life decisions, like who to marry, which career path to follow, or where to live, can feel paralyzing, and that kinda makes sense. The bigger the choice, the greater its potential to impact your life and your well-being. So what do you do when you're faced with a big decision?

如何才能做出最能带来幸福的选择？你会与爱人或治疗师讨论吗？会列出一大堆利弊清单吗？还是干脆抛硬币决定？今天的嘉宾将给出他的建议。

How do you make the most happiness inducing choice? Do you talk it through with a loved one or therapist? Do you make a big list of pros and cons? Do you flip a coin? Well, today's guest has some advice.

大家好，我是巴里·施瓦茨，一名心理学家。我在费城郊外的斯沃斯莫尔学院任教四十五年，退休后搬到了奥克兰。多年来我的研究兴趣集中在经济学与心理学的交叉领域，专注于人们如何做决策以及应该如何做决策。

Hi. My name is Barry Schwartz. I'm a psychologist. I spent forty five years teaching at a place called Swarthmore College outside of Philadelphia, then retired and moved to Oakland. My interests for many, many years have been on the intersection of economics and psychology, focused on how people make decisions and also how they should make decisions.

巴里已是《幸福实验室》节目的常客，因为我是他研究的忠实粉丝。所以当我得知他新出版了一本关于如何做艰难决策的书时特别兴奋。这本书名为《明智选择：理性、伦理与决策艺术》，由巴里与他在斯沃斯莫尔学院的哲学系同事理查德·舒尔登弗雷合著。我想先从定义开始我们的'明智选择'对话。

Barry's been a guest on Happiness Lab a few times because I'm a huge fan of his work. So I was super excited to see that he had a new book out about how to make tough decisions. It's called choose wisely, rationality, ethics, and the art of decision making. It's coauthored with Barry's former Swarthmore colleague, the philosopher Richard Schuldenfrae. I wanted to start our conversation about choosing wisely with some definitions.

因此我向巴里提出的第一个问题是：什么样的决策才算是好决策？

So my first question to Barry was, what makes a decision good?

我认为，好的决策应该能引领你走向那些让你过上美好生活的事物。

So a good decision is one that gets you to things that enable you to live a good life, I would say.

看来你非常擅长做出能让自己生活美满的决策。你与妻子相伴多年——记得你在书中提到是从七年级开始的，而且你在同一所大学度过了半生。这些决定对你来说总是轻而易举吗？还是说你也曾为某些选择而挣扎？

Seems like you're pretty good at making decisions that enable you to live a good life. You've been with your wife for a long time. I think you said in your book since seventh grade, and you spent half your life at one university. Has this always come easy to you, or do are there decisions that you really struggle with too?

我很少为决策感到困扰。有些人（至少在某些时候）认为自己的任务是从所处情境中获取最优解，我们称其为'最大化者'；而另一些人则追求'足够好'——他们可能在某些方面标准较低，在其他方面标准较高。

There are very few decisions that I have struggled with. There are people who at least some of the time think their task is to get the best out of whatever situation they're in. We call them maximizers. And there are people who aspire to good enough. And they may have low standards with respect to some things and high standards with respect to other things.

但无论他们的标准是什么，一旦找到符合要求的东西，他们就会停止寻找。我一直都是这样。我脑海中的问题总是：这够好了吗？有时候，你知道，我会惊喜地发现，我选择的‘够好’结果却出奇地棒。

But whatever their standards are, as soon as they find something that meets them, they stop looking. I have always been that way. The question in my mind was always, Is this good enough? And sometimes, you know, I was pleasantly surprised. I chose good enough and it turned out it was spectacular.

但我不是在追求完美，而是在寻找‘够好’。这让做决定变得容易多了。在现代社会尤其如此。一百年前，寻找最好的和寻找够好的差别不大，因为选择本来就不多。

But I wasn't looking for perfect. I was looking for good enough. And that makes decision making a lot easier. And that is especially true in the modern world. A hundred years ago, there wasn't much difference between looking for the best and looking for good enough because there just weren't that many options.

但现在，你可以花一辈子寻找最好的牛仔裤，或者纽约大都会区最好的餐厅之类的，结果却可能赤身裸体、饥肠辘辘地死去。

But now you could spend your whole life looking for the best pair of jeans or, you know, the best restaurant in the New York Metropolitan Area or what have you, and you'd end up dying naked and starving.

不过你自己也有过这种经历，即使作为一个善于做决定的人，有一次买牛仔裤时也遇到了麻烦。我记得。

You had this experience yourself, though, even as a good decision maker trying to buy jeans one time. I remember.

这说明了像我这样的人有多容易被诱惑。我以前买牛仔裤。我每天都穿牛仔裤，只有当旧裤子穿破了，或者我妻子不好意思和我一起出现在公共场合时才会买新的。因为我不喜欢买牛仔裤。新买的牛仔裤一开始穿着不舒服，你得洗无数次。

It shows you how seductive it is for somebody like me. I used to buy jeans. I wore jeans every day and I would buy them when the old pair wore out or when my wife was embarrassed to be seen in public with me. Because I didn't like shopping for jeans. They were uncomfortable when you first bought them, you had to wash them a million times.

总之，我去了Gap，那是我买牛仔裤的地方，我告诉他们我的尺码。店员问：你想要修身款、舒适款、宽松款、纽扣门襟、拉链门襟、靴型裤脚？我说，我想要以前唯一有的那种，当然他们现在已经不生产了。于是我试穿了所有这些不同的款式，心想，既然他们费心做了，我也该费心试试。最后我买到了有史以来最合身的牛仔裤。

So anyway, I went to the Gap, which is where I bought my jeans, and I told them my size. And the clerk said, You want slim fit, easy fit, relaxed fit, button fly, zipper fly, boot cut? And I said, I want the kind that used to be the only kind, which of course they didn't make anymore. So I ended up trying on all these different styles thinking, well, if they go to the trouble of making them, I should go to the trouble of trying them. And I walked out with the best fitting jeans I had ever had.

但我感觉更糟了。我感觉更糟的原因是，当有这么多选择时，我对好结果的标准提高了。以前只有一种牛仔裤时，只有白痴或模特才会追求完美。但我既不是白痴，也不是模特。所以，‘够好’就是够好了。

And I felt worse. And the reason I felt worse is that what happened when there were all these options is that my standards for what counted as a good result went up. All there were was one kind of genes, only an idiot would expect perfection, an idiot or a model. But I'm not an idiot, and I'm not a model. So, you know, good enough was good enough.

但现在当我看到它们被制成各种不同的剪裁和款式时，我的期待已不止于‘够好’。所以我得到的东西虽好，却并不完美。最终我反而觉得自己失败了。我意识到这就是富裕民主社会里人们的生活常态。这不仅极度浪费资源，还对人们的福祉有着难以置信的损害。

But now when I see them making them in all these different cuts and styles, I expect better than good enough. So what I got was good, but it wasn't perfect. And so I ended up feeling like I had failed. And it occurred to me that this is life for people in rich democratic societies. And it is incredibly wasteful of resources, and it is incredibly detrimental to people's well-being.

我认为现代社会的另一个现象不仅仅是选择过剩——比如靴型裤、超级飞翼等各种牛仔裤款式。我们还生活在一个能获取海量产品信息的世界。我正深有体会，因为我在尝试购买新投影仪。我们原本有台用来看电影的投影仪，现在它彻底坏了。

I think another thing that happens in the modern day isn't just that we have this incredible overwhelm of choice, you know, bootcut and superfly, all this stuff with genes. We also live in a world where we get lots of information about them too. I'm experiencing this because I'm trying to buy a new projector. You know, we used to have a projector that we watch movies on. The projector just died.

于是我上网搜索，发现有数百万种投影仪可选。但困扰我的不仅是选择本身，更是那些铺天盖地的信息。我先看了《纽约时报》的Wirecutter推荐，然后又看到无数用户评价。

And so I go on the web. There's millions of projectors. But it's not just the choice. It feels to me also like it's the information that's out there. So first, I go on, you know, wire cutter, the New York Times, and then I see a million different reviews that people have.

这让我觉得必须追求最优解——否则为什么会有这么多选择，还有这么多关于这些选择的信息存在呢？

It feels like I'm supposed to be optimizing because otherwise, why would there be so not just so much choice, but so much information about my choices out there?

你说得完全正确。就像只有傻瓜才会不利用这些多样性和信息。社会施加了巨大压力——‘满足化’（satisficing）明明就够好了。但当我演讲提到这个概念时，听众总理解为‘将就’。

You're exactly right. It's like only an idiot would fail to take advantage of all the variety and all the information. There's enormous pressure. You know, satisficing is good enough. The way people hear that when I give talks about this is satisficing is settling.

‘将就’这个词本身就带有贬义。当人们说你‘将就’时，其实是在批评你——为什么要妥协？当然，你说得对。如今信息和错误信息都如此泛滥。

The word settling is not neutral. When people describe you as settling, they're criticizing you. Why would you settle? And of course, you're right. Nowadays, the information and misinformation is so abundant.

要知道，现在获取信息毫不费力。一百年前我申请大学时，你得写信给学校，他们会寄来晦涩难懂、厚达百万页的课程目录。这就是全部资料。作为一个17岁的孩子，你得用这些极其笨重的信息决定申请哪所大学，而且这些资料要几周才能寄到。

You know, it's effortless. When I was applying to college a hundred years ago, you'd send off to a college and they'd send you their course catalog, which was incomprehensible and a million pages thick. But that's what you got. So you had to decide where to apply to college as a 17 year old with this incredibly unwieldy information. And it took weeks for it to come.

既然获取信息如此费力，理解信息又如此费神，你打算申请多少所大学呢？这是我们如今生活的世界吗？绝对不是。你可以在半小时内获取美国所有大学的全部信息。为何不好好利用这一点呢？

So how many colleges are you going to apply to given how effortful it is to get information that is then effortful to make sense of? Is that the world we live in now? Absolutely not. You can get all the information you want about every college in The United States in a half hour. So why not take advantage of it?

是啊。我认为这种'需要优化一切'的想法正是当前文化的体现。对吧？但这也是经济学家长期向我们传达的观点——我们理应优化自己的决策。

Yeah. I think this idea that we need to optimize everything is just the kind of current culture. Right? But this is also something that economists have been telling us for a long time. There's this idea that we're supposed to optimize our decisions.

在你的书中，你回顾了我们用于做出理性决策的经典公式。请告诉我这个公式是什么，并解释为何你如此反对它。

And so in your book, you review this kind of classic formula that we use to make rational decisions. Tell me what this formula is and explain why you've pushed against it so much.

当然。我们从经济学继承的观点是：好的决策就是能最大化效用的决策。

Sure. So what we've inherited from economics is the idea that a good decision is one that maximizes utility.

也许可以为完全不熟悉这些概念的听众解释一下。是的。

And maybe just define for listeners who are totally unfamiliar with this stuff. Yeah.

效用就是你认为有价值的东西。由你决定什么值得什么。你可能被美学吸引，我可能被银行账户的数字吸引，而其他人可能以能打出网球ACE球为乐。无论是什么，你都应该选择能为自己最大化那个价值的方式。然后你在生活中做决策时，要尽可能从每个决定中获取最大效用。

Utility is whatever you think it is. So you decide what's worth what. You know, you may be turned on by aesthetics, and I may be turned on by the size of my bank account, and somebody else may be turned on by being able to hit tennis aces. Whatever it is, you should be choosing in a way that maximizes that thing for you. And then you go through the world making decisions so that you get the most utility out of every decision that you possibly can.

因此理性选择理论源自经济学。它存在已久且具有很好的直觉合理性。如果你的决策目标是效用最大化，那么面对每个选项时，你需要知道两件事：第一，它有多好？能带来多少效用？

So rational choice theory grows out of economics. It's been around for a very long time and it makes good intuitive sense. If your goal when you're making a decision is to maximize utility, then for every option you face, you need to know two things. One, how good will it be? How util will it be?

第二，如果我选择了它，它真的会如我所想那般好吗？因为世界充满不确定性。这与我们在赌场下注极为相似。你需要了解两件事：我能赢多少？

Two, how likely is it that if I choose it, it'll actually be as good as I think? Because the world is uncertain. Very much analogous to the bets we make in a casino. You need to know two things. How much will I win?

以及我赢的几率有多大？将这两者相乘，你就得到了所谓的期望效用。然后你只需选择期望效用最高的选项。这就是理论上你应该遵循的生活方式。值得注意的是，这假设我们的决策就像在赌场做决定一样。

And how likely am I to win it? You multiply those two things together and you get a quote expected utility. And then you simply choose the option that has the highest expected utility. And that's the way you're supposed to go through life. The thing to notice is that it assumes that the decisions we make are like decisions we might make in a casino.

每个结果的价值都可以用数字量化，获得该价值的可能性也能用数字表示。因此玩轮盘或二十一点时不存在不确定性——这些游戏的设计本身就允许你对潜在收益和概率进行精确计算。

That there are numbers that can be attached to the value of each outcome. And there are numbers that can be attached to the likelihood of getting that value. So there's no uncertainty when you're playing roulette or blackjack. You can attach both potential gains and probabilities to all those games. That's the way the games are set up.

但选择大学、决定周末安排、确定播客采访对象这类决策似乎并非如此。然而经济学的推动力在于：找到量化方法就能提升理性程度。这个规范标准已盛行百年。问题是当科学走向错误方向时，社会制度也会随之偏移，最终就像鱼意识不到自己生活在水中。

Choosing a college, deciding what to do for the weekend, deciding who to interview on your podcast don't seem to be like that. But the push from economics is find a way to quantify, and you will enhance your rationality. So that has been the normative standard for a century. What happens is that your science moves in the wrong direction and then social institutions move in the same direction. And before you know it, it's fish not knowing they live in water.

人们很难想象还有其他组织生活或关注其他事物的方式。虽然'理性选择理论'这个词对多数人很陌生，但主流决策思维方式其实就是该理论的温和化版本。我的新书《明智选择》指出：理性选择理论是个灾难性标准，因为我们大多数决策（无论大小）都与赌场模型截然不同。

It's hard to imagine there's another way to organize your life and another set of things to care about. So rational choice theory is probably not a phrase that is familiar to most people. But I think the way they think you're supposed to make decisions is an embodiment of rational choice theory with some of the rough edges sort of sanded down a little bit. And the point of the new book, which is called Choose Wisely, is that rational choice theory is a disastrous standard to use because most of the decisions we make, even minor ones and certainly major ones, are nothing like senogamples.

你在书中用一些有力故事揭示了理性选择理论乃至成本效益分析的弊端。比如越战时期的罗伯特·麦克纳马拉案例。能分享这个例子吗？它如何说明用数字简化选择的危险性？

So in your book, you tell some of these powerful stories of, like, how bad this rational choice theory or maybe, like, even this cost benefit analysis is. Yeah. You tell a story about Robert McNamara during the Vietnam War. Can you share that example and why it illustrates why reducing choice to all these kinds of numbers might be so dangerous?

考虑到听众里没有百岁老人——美国曾参与越南战争（必须从头讲起）。这是场游击战，或称不对称战争。我们拥有正规军和重型武器，而对方在丛林中作战。曾任福特汽车总裁的麦克纳马拉坚信：决策之道在于理性化。

So for people in your audience who are not a 100 years old, The United States fought a war in Vietnam. Gotta start the beginning. It was a guerrilla war or what has come to be called an asymmetric war. We had our army and big weapons, and they were fighting in a jungle. And McNamara, who had been the head of the Ford Motor Company, had this idea that the way to make decisions is to rationalize.

他所说的‘合理化’，是指建立一个能进行成本效益计算的框架。那么最佳策略就是单位成本产生最高效益的方案。他试图将战争工业化，并将这套标准强加于整个军队层级，结果酿成灾难。非对称战争的特点在于，你很难判断谁占上风。

And by rationalize, he meant create a framework where you can do cost benefit calculations. And then the right strategy is the one that will produce the highest benefit per unit of cost. So he was trying to industrialize the war. He imposed those standards up and down the military hierarchy, and it was a disaster. Now the thing about an asymmetric war is it's really hard to know who's winning.

这不像占领二三十平方英里领土那样直观。胜负难辨之际，某位聪明人提议需要找个衡量胜利的替代指标。什么能有效替代胜利？伤亡数字。

It's not like you're gaining territory of twenty, forty square miles. It's really hard to know who's winning. So some brilliant person had the idea that we needed a proxy for winning. And what's a good proxy for winning? Casualties.

若敌军伤亡比我方惨重，我们必然占据优势。于是战略转变为不计战略价值地最大化敌军伤亡，纯粹为杀戮而杀戮——这与通过流血获取战略优势已毫无关联。这让我意识到，过度信奉理性选择理论的危险：量化压力会迫使你测量可测之物，并假装这些数据就是你的真正关切。

If they're losing more soldiers than we are, we must be winning. The strategy changed to maximize enemy casualties whether or not they had any strategic advantage. And so now we were just out for blood independent of the strategic advantages that extracting that blood might have caused. And that, it strikes me, is the danger of taking rational choice theory too seriously. The press to be able to quantify pushes you in the direction of measuring what you can and pretending that what you measure is what you care about.

但如果量化成本效益并非人生重大决策的答案，什么才是？广告之后，巴里将分享他做出艰难抉择的方法，这些选择能带来更大幸福感。《幸福实验室》稍后继续。凉意渐浓时节需要持久耐穿的叠搭单品，Quince是我获取质感基础款的首选——舒适精致且不超预算。想象50美元的蒙古羊绒、剪裁完美的优质牛仔、可穿多年的奢华外套。

But if quantifying costs and benefits isn't the answer to life's big decisions, then what is? After the break, Barry will share his method for making tough choices that can lead to greater well-being. The Happiness Lab will be back in a moment. Cooler days call for layers that last, and Quince is my go to for quality essentials that feel cozy, look refined, and won't blow your budget. Think $50 Mongolian cashmere, premium denim that fits like a dream, and luxe outerwear you'll wear year after year.

这些单品将成为你的秋季制服。这种衣橱升级既显睿智又时髦 effortless。我最爱Quince蒙古羊绒拉链连帽衫，整个秋天反复穿着，部分原因是收获无数赞美。我还痴迷于他们带口袋的层叠长裙（必须强调有口袋太棒了）。

These are the pieces that'll turn into your fall uniform. It's the kind of wardrobe upgrade that feels smart, stylish, and effortless. My favorite is Quince's Mongolian cashmere zip up hoodie. I've been wearing that on repeat all autumn long, in part because I get so many compliments on it. I'm also kinda obsessed with Quince's tiered maxi dress, which has pockets I might add, which is awesome.

这是打造得体秋季职场造型的秘诀。Quince确实已成为我满足所有秋季需求的一站式商店，从服饰到家居用品。登录quince.com/happiness获取免运费和365天退换服务，现已扩展至加拿大市场。

That's my go to for a put together fall work look. Quince really has become my one stop shop for all my autumn needs from clothes to house stuff. Find your fall staples at Quince. Go to quince.com/happiness for free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Now available in Canada too.

访问quince.com/happiness即可享受免运费和365天退换。quince.com/happiness。《幸福实验室》由Amica保险荣誉赞助。正如Amica所言：共情是最佳保险策略。从倾听您的保险需求到理赔跟进，Amica始终提供充满关怀的保障服务。

That's quince.com/happiness to get free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Quince.com/happiness. The Happiness Lab is proudly sponsored by Amica Insurance. As Amica says, empathy is our best policy. From listening to your insurance needs to following up after a claim, Amica provides coverage with care and compassion.

因为作为一家互助保险公司，Amica是为客户而建，并以您为优先。这不正是保险应有的方式吗？在Amica，您的安心至关重要。访问amica.com，今天就获取报价。有意义的联系往往在最不经意的小惊喜时刻出现。

Because as a mutual insurer, Amica is built for its customers and prioritizes you. Isn't that the way insurance should be? At Amica, your peace of mind matters. Visit amica.com and get a quote today. Meaningful connections often show up when you least expect it in those small surprising moments.

所以我非常兴奋今天的赞助商Bumble能让这些小小的火花更容易被注意到。通过共享兴趣和提示等功能，您可以在个人资料中展示个性，并与懂您的人建立联系。如果您好奇谁可能为生活增添更多欢乐，Bumble是个绝佳的起点。准备好遇见那个特别的人了吗？在Bumble开启您的爱情故事吧。

So I'm very excited that today's sponsor, Bumble, makes it easier to notice those little sparks. With features like shared interests and prompts, you can showcase your personality right on your profile and connect with people who get your vibe. So if you're curious about who might bring a little more joy into your life, Bumble is a great place to start. Ready to meet someone great? Start your love story on Bumble.

心理学家巴里·施瓦茨致力于帮助我们做出更好的选择，最终过上更好的生活。在他的新书《明智选择》中，他与合著者理查德·舒尔登弗劳提出，我们需要摒弃量化幸福的概念，这一主张在决策科学领域颇具革命性。毕竟，就连行为经济学之父、诺贝尔奖得主丹尼·卡尼曼也以试图客观衡量幸福感而闻名。我请巴里解释卡尼曼发展这一方法的背景，以及他和合著者对此的看法。

Psychologist Barry Schwartz is on a mission to help us make better choices and ultimately to live better lives. In his new book, Choose Wisely, he and his coauthor, Richard Schuldenfrau, argue that we need to forget the notion of quantifying happiness, a claim that's pretty revolutionary in the field of decision science. After all, even the father of behavioral economics, the Nobel Prize winning Danny Kahneman, was famous for trying to measure happiness objectively. I asked Barry to explain the context in which Kahneman developed this method and what he and his coauthor thought about it.

这个理念是，当你问人们'综合考虑，你有多幸福？'时，他们告诉你的很可能是过去十五分钟的经历。因此，用这种笼统的问题很难深入细节。更好的方法是让人们列出过去24小时或48小时参与的活动，然后对每项活动按五级量表评估其带来的满足感或幸福感。通过这种方式，可以构建幸福的'原子'。

The idea is that when you ask people something like all things considered, how happy are you? What they're likely to tell you is about what experience they had in the last fifteen minutes. So it's really very hard to use a global question like that to get into the details. And so what works better is having people essentially list the activities that they've engaged in in the course of the last twenty four hours, forty eight hours, what have you, and then ask them for each activity on a, say, a five point scale, how much satisfaction it gave them, how happy it made them. And in this way, you can build up the atoms of happiness.

所以他寻找的是他所谓的'客观幸福'。其理念是，幸福客观上就是时刻的集合——每个瞬间的感受总和就是你在那段时间的整体幸福。他试图将主观测量转化为客观测量，并承认这不是对幸福的最终定论，但他认为'没有原子就构不成分子'。

So what he was looking for was what he called objective happiness. And the idea was that happiness objectively is simply the collection of moments. How you feel at every moment put together is the sum total of your happiness in that period of time. So that's what he was trying to do was to turn a subjective measure into an objective measure. And he acknowledged that it was not the final word on happiness, but he thought, you know, you don't get molecules without atoms.

他试图开发一种理解幸福'原子'的方法。而哲学家舒伦弗莱虽然对卡尼曼的工作极为尊重，却认为这是世界上最荒谬的事业——'如此聪明的人怎么会有这么愚蠢的想法？'

And what he was trying to do was develop a way of understanding the atoms of happiness. And Schulenfrei, who was a philosopher, thought this was the most ludicrous enterprise in the world, although he also had enormous respect for Kahneman's work. It was like, how could somebody that smart have such a dumb idea?

我想部分原因是丹尼来自一个认为必须找出理性路径的传统。或许他被另一种版本诱惑了——他想做幸福的物理学，找到幸福的原子并把它们组合起来。

I mean, I think part of it is that you know, Danny came from this tradition who thought that they had to figure out what the rational path was. And I think Danny was maybe seduced by a different version. Right? He wanted to do the physics of happiness. We'll find the atoms of happiness and put them all together.

没错。理想情况下，如果你找到了幸福的原子，你就可以通过制定社会政策来增加这些幸福原子，从而提升幸福感。明白吗？除非你知道进步是什么样子，否则你无法取得进步。所以他坚持那种严谨和精确的标准。

That's right. And, ideally, if you find the atoms of happiness, you can then improve happiness by doing formulating social policies that increase the atoms of happiness. You know? You can't make progress unless you know what progress is gonna look like. So he had that standard of rigor and precision.

而他试图做的是将其应用于一个更为模糊的概念，并理解它最终会发展成完整的复杂性。

And what he was trying to do is adapt it to a much fuzzier concept with the understanding that eventually it would get built out into its full complexity.

那么，跟我聊聊为什么你和舒尔登弗莱认为这种方法行不通，这样分解幸福的方式。

And so talk to me about why you and Schuldenfrei don't think this approach works, kind of atomizing happiness this way.

首先，很大程度上取决于你对幸福的理解。如果你持有所谓的笑脸幸福观，那么据我所知，卡尼曼的方法完全合理。有很多简单的方法可以得到那种笑脸。吸毒可能是最简单的方式，让你一直保持笑脸直到死去。所以你需要先问，幸福意味着什么？

First of all, a lot depends on what you think happiness means. And if you have what could be called a smiley face view of happiness, then for all I know Kahneman's approach made perfectly good sense. There are easy ways to get that smiley face. Taking drugs is probably the easiest way to get that smiley face and have it all the time until you die. So you need to start by asking, what does it mean to be happy?

你知道，亚里士多德所说的eudaimonia，即真正的幸福，与过上好生活、取得成就、有所追求、做有意义的事情有关。而大多数时候，实现这些目标的过程会让你不幸福，从笑脸的角度来看。明白吗？如果你想成为世界上最好的职业篮球运动员，你每周要在健身房花二十个小时。我不是那种人，但我猜没人喜欢每周在健身房花二十个小时。

You know, what Aristotle called eudaimonia, which is real happiness, has to do with living a good life, with achieving, with going somewhere, with doing things that are meaningful. And much of the time, what it takes for that to happen is going to make you unhappy, smiley face wise. You know? If you want to be the best professional basketball player in the world, you spend twenty hours a week in the weight room. I'm not one of those people, but I'm guessing that nobody likes spending twenty hours a week in the weight room.

他们真正喜欢的是在某个对他们来说重要且有意义的领域变得卓越，他们会为更大的目标而忍受痛苦。所以当你像卡尼曼那样将幸福分子化作为第一步时，你实际上是在让人们关注这些微小且几乎无关紧要的每分钟、每天的体验细节，仿佛这些才是他们应该追求的，而不是那些更大的目标。再次强调，我不认为他认为这是最终答案。他明确说过。但问题是，在科学中，你往往很难超越第一步。

What they do like is becoming excellent at something that is significant and meaningful to them, and they will suffer in the service of something else that's bigger. So when you molecularize happiness the way Kahneman did just as a first step, what you're doing is you're getting people to focus down on these little and almost certainly irrelevant details of minute by minute and day to day experience as if that's what they should be pursuing rather than these larger objectives. Again, I don't think he thought it was ever going to be the last word. He says that explicitly. But the trouble is that what often happens in science is that you never get very far past the first word.

用这些原子构建一个庞大的结构，这并没有发生。你把所有时间都花在原子上，而不是结构上。尤其是当你认为最重要的东西无法以你认为科学应有的量化方式量化时，这种情况尤为明显。

And building this great big structure out of these atoms, it doesn't happen. You spend all your time with the atoms and not with the structure. And this is especially true when the things you think matter most are not quantifiable in the way that you think a science should be quantifiable.

所以试图用这些微小的原子来衡量幸福似乎行不通。你认为我们应该如何衡量幸福？

So trying to measure happiness in terms of these tiny atoms doesn't seem to work. How do you think we should be measuring happiness?

嗯，当你申请大学时，我们在书里花了很多时间跟随一个虚构的年轻女孩米娅，她在决定是否应该上大学？该去哪所大学？为什么要上大学？等等。所以问题是，当你试图决定去哪所大学时，你应该问自己什么样的问题？

Well so when you're applying to college, we spend a lot of time in the book following this apocryphal young woman named Mia as she decides, should I go to college? Where should I go to college? Why am I going to college? Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. So the question is when you're trying to decide where to go to college, what kinds of questions should you be asking yourself?

有些问题很容易问和回答。比如，从这所或那所大学毕业的人的平均工资是多少？这是可获取的，是量化的。嗯。

There are some questions that it is easy to ask and answer. Like, what's the average salary of people who graduate from this or that college? It's accessible. It's quantitative. Mhmm.

是的。录取学生的平均SAT分数是多少？分数越高，学生越好。学生越好，我的教育就会越好。《美国新闻与世界报道》就是靠这种方式量化事物谋生的，所以你基本上只需按一个按钮，答案就出来了，我该去哪所学校？

Yep. What are the average SAT scores of admitted students? The higher they are, the better the students. The better the students, the better my education will be. US News and World Report makes a living quantifying things in this way so that basically you can just push a button and out comes the answer, what school should I go to?

我该申请哪所学校？在做任何这些之前，你真的应该问自己，我为什么要上大学？对我来说它的目的是什么？我是哪种人？我渴望成为哪种人？

What school should I apply to? Before you do any of that, you really should be asking, why am I going to college? What's it for for me? What kind of a person am I? What kind of a person do I aspire to become?

如果不先问自己这些问题，你无法真正评估特定大学或大学内特定项目的价值。我想关心什么？我关心什么？我如何才能成为我渴望成为的人？你能做对吗？

And you can't really attach value to particular colleges or particular programs within colleges without first asking yourself these questions. What do I want to care about? And what do I care about? And how can I get to be the person that I aspire to be? Are you gonna get this right?

当然不能。你知道吗？我是说，你才17岁。你对自己还不够了解。大学的一个伟大之处在于它会改变人。

Hell no. You know? I mean, you're 17 years old. You don't know yourself well enough. One of the great things about college is that it changes people.

但这种不确定性是不可避免的。至少你正在提出正确的问题。随着大学生活的展开，你会持续用这些问题来评估自己是否接受了良好教育。良好教育不意味着拥有3.8的绩点，而是意味着你正朝着自己认为人生应有的方向前进，沿着你期望的生命轨迹前行。

But that kind of uncertainty is inevitable. You will at least be asking the right questions. And as you go through college, you will continue to be asking those questions as a way of evaluating whether you're being well educated. Well educated doesn't mean that you have a 3.8 GPA. Being well educated means that you're moving in the direction that you think your life should take, the trajectory you want your life to take.

没有哪个决定是终极的。我们想说的是，理性的人是深思熟虑的人，是善于反思的人。他们不会在量化不适用时盲目追求量化。换句话说，量化有其适用的场景。

No decision is final. So what we're suggesting is that rational people are thoughtful people. They are reflective people. And they don't slavishly pursue quantification when quantification is inappropriate. In other words, quantification has its place.

但假装通过赋予数字就解决了问题，并不能带你到达正确的彼岸。

But pretending that you have solved the problem by putting a number on it is not gonna get you to the right place.

我认同这个理念，但觉得它与主流文化如此相悖。我们深陷量化思维和优化思维的窠臼。你提到的观点让我深有共鸣——尤其是大学选择这类重大决定，你不可能一蹴而就，因为在这个过程中你会不断改变，本就不存在所谓'正确'答案，它会随时间演变。

I love this idea, but I find it so countercultural. Like, we are so in quantification mindset, and we're so in optimization mindset. I mean, the thing you said that I found so interesting that I agree with completely, especially for the college decision but for lots of decisions, is you're not gonna get it right. You're not gonna get it right because you're going to change throughout the process, and there's no right. It's gonna evolve over time.

这不是个一劳永逸的决定，而是需要持续调整的选择。我觉得现代人厌恶这种观念，他们总想如挑选完美基因般一次性搞定。但构筑美好人生的重要事项，大多都不遵循这种模式。

It's not a decision that's one and done. It's one that you're gonna keep making constantly. And I think people today hate that idea. They want to, you know, pick the perfect genes, and it's one and done. But most of the big important things we need to do in life to live a good life just don't work like that.

我认为人们对此感到恐惧。他们迷恋这样的幻想：通过点评网站找到最优大学或理想住宅就能万事大吉。但美好人生的运作逻辑并非如此。

And that I think people find really scary. I think people love the idea that they could go on some Yelp review and find the optimal college or the optimal house, and then they're done. But the good life doesn't work that way.

你说得对。但我也认为这种理性选择模型助长了这种心态。它暗示每个问题都存在正确答案，只要付出足够努力就能找到。

I think that's right. But I also think that this sort of rational choice model contributes to this attitude. Totally. In other words, it tells you there is a right answer to this question. And if you do enough work, you'll get to it.

我不认为这是人们过去思考自己生活的方式。你可以在做出决定后回顾，那些在当时看来相当合理的决定，并从错误中学习，以便下次可能以不同的方式评估事物。但不确定性本身就是人类在社会环境中生存的一部分。而且这从来不是一蹴而就的，永远没有终点。

And I don't think that's the way people used to think about their lives. You can look back after you've made decisions, quite reasonable decisions at the time, and learn from what went wrong so that maybe you'll evaluate things differently the next time. But uncertainty is simply built into being a human being in a social environment. And it's never one and done. It's never finished.

你应该始终反思自己做出的决定。我要指出的是，你给予的关注应该与其重要性相称。比如，我不希望你因为去了纽黑文的一家披萨店而不是最好的那家，就为此自责三周。这很荒谬。但如果是在选择就读哪所大学四年，或是决定攻读心理学博士而非经济学博士，或是考虑是否与某人结婚这类决定上产生自我质疑，那就并非不合理了。

You should always be thinking about decisions that you've made. And I should point out, you should be giving it attention that's proportionate to its importance. You know, I don't want you to go to a pizza place in New Haven and then beat yourself up for three weeks because you didn't go to the best pizza place in New Haven. You know, that's crazy. But it's not so crazy to have those kinds of recriminations when it's about where you spent four years going to college or deciding to get a PhD in psychology instead of a PhD in economics or deciding to marry somebody or not marry that person.

明白吗？你应该根据决策的重要性进行相应程度的反思，但首先需要通过反思来判断它们有多重要。

You know? You should be reflective about decisions in some proportion to their importance, but you need to be reflective to decide how important they are.

那么让我们深入探讨可以用来增强反思的具体方法。你提出的其中一个方法就是理解这个概念。我们需要确保自己真正理解事物。但你指的不是那种量化意义上的理解，不是说要精确测量一切。

And so let's get into the particular process we can use to become a little bit more reflective. One of the processes you suggest is this idea of understanding. We really need to kind of make sure we're understanding things well. But you don't mean in the kind of quantitative sense. You don't mean kind of measuring things out.

那你这里所说的理解具体指什么？

So what do you mean by understanding here?

关于需要运用判断力的问题是，几乎每个问题的正确答案都是'视情况而定'。正如你几分钟前说的，人们不喜欢这种不确定性，这会让他们紧张焦虑。我完全同意。你可以否认这点，给事物强加数字标准，这样就不存在'视情况而定'了。

The thing about needing to use judgment is that the right answer to almost every question is it depends. What you just said a few minutes ago that people don't like that, it makes them nervous. It makes them anxious. I couldn't agree more. You can deny that and attach numbers to things, then it doesn't depend.

或者你可以接受这个事实，作为一个不完美的人，在这个复杂的世界里尽力去理解自己和即将进入的环境，并运用这种永远可以修正的理解做出明智的猜测。所以理解意味着：第一，理解自己；第二，理解世界。我相信你教给学生的重要内容之一，就是这两件事做起来有多困难。

Or you can accept it and try the best you can as an imperfect person in a complicated world to understand both yourself and the environment you're about to enter and use that understanding, always correctable, to make an intelligent guess. So understanding means a, understanding yourself and b, understanding the world. I'm sure that one of the things you teach students is how hard it is to do either of those things.

是的。没错。这比在《美国新闻与世界报道》上查排名要困难得多。对。

Yes. Yeah. It's it's much harder than looking on The US News and World Report for, you know, what the rank is. Yep.

确实要困难得多。有时候这样做也无妨。比如你在旅途中临时在酒店过夜，想找个地方吃饭，看看Yelp评价选家好评餐厅，不再纠结——这没问题。但你需要深思熟虑，明白该投入多少努力以及何种努力。

It is much, much harder. And sometimes that's a fine thing to do. You know, you're stopping overnight at a hotel on your way somewhere and you wanna find a place to eat looking at Yelp reviews and picking a restaurant that's got good reviews and not looking back. That's fine. But you need to be thoughtful to know how much effort and what kind of effort is required.

说某所学校是好学校意味着什么？你真正关心的是：它对我而言是好学校吗？但如果你认定上大学的唯一目的是毕业后立刻拿到六位数薪水，那么所谓的好学校未必适合你。它只是对那个会因文凭给你高薪的世界而言是好学校。我认为这不是择校的正确理由，但不会强求你采用我的标准，请用你自己的标准。

What does it mean to say that such and such is a good school? What you really care about is, is it a good school for me? However, if you've decided that the only reason you're going to college is so that you can earn a 6 figure income right after you get your diploma, then a good school isn't necessarily a good school for you. It's a good school for the world that will reward you with a 6 figure salary as soon as you get your diploma. Now, I think that's the wrong reason to choose a school, but I wouldn't insist that you use my standards, so you use your standards.

但明确自身标准才能知道该寻找什么、如何评估所得。这一切都具有流动性，我们试图通过这种流动性来反映生活的本质。好的决策并非毫无瑕疵的决策。

But knowing what standards you have tells you what to look for and how to evaluate what you're getting. So there's a fluidity to all of this, which we try to suggest captures the fluidity to life as we live it. Good decisions are not error free decisions.

但如果我们了解自己，决策会更有效。你提到理解自我的方法之一是更关注目的。这里所说的目的指什么？

But they work better if we understand ourselves. And one of the ways you suggested that we need to understand ourselves is to pay a little bit more attention to purpose. What do you mean by purpose in this context?

目的是什么？上大学为了什么？这份工作为了什么？明白吗？这份工作只是为了让你维持某种生活方式吗？

What's it for? What's college for? What's this job for? You know? Is this job just to enable you to live at a certain lifestyle?

那么你真正关心的就只有工资袋里的数字。这份工作是为了让世界更美好吗？那你就得用不同角度审视可能性。这份工作是为了提升自身技能吗？这又需要另一种考量方式。

Well, then the only thing you really care about is what's in your pay envelope. Is this job for making the world a better place? Well, now you have to scrutinize the possibilities in a different way. Is this job for developing your own skills? That requires still a different take.

你必须反思并愿意改变对工作本质的理解。我们对'目的'并没有高深莫测的定义——实际上，大多数人的直觉认知就让我们很满意。在我看来，这本质上就是工作的意义所在。

You have to be reflective and open to changing your ideas about what the job is for. And we don't have a highfalutin notion about what purpose is. I mean, we're perfectly happy with most people's intuitions. And that it seems to me is essentially what's it for.

这似乎也是你的决策理念引发焦虑的另一个领域。因为当我思考不同事物的目的时——比如运营这个播客、善待丈夫、做世间的好人——这些目标有时会产生冲突。我们该如何应对？

This also seems to be another area where your vision of decision making leads to same anxiety. Because when I reflect on the purpose of different kinds of things, you know, running this podcast, you know, being kind to my husband, being a good person in the world, sometimes those parts of purpose come into conflict. How should we navigate that?

明智地应对。没错，这正是理性选择理论刻意忽略的。它把决策的各个组成部分视为相互独立，而实际上你追求的不同目标常常会产生矛盾。

Wisely. Yes. That's another thing that rational choice theory essentially ignores. It treats the various components of a decision as if they are independent from one another. Whereas in fact, often, the different things you desire may come into conflict.

事业巅峰的要求与经营亲密关系/家庭幸福的要求，可能让你陷入持续冲突。我就亲身经历过——刚在斯沃斯莫尔学院任教时我野心勃勃，立志成为领域翘楚。但第一个孩子出生后，我立刻明白：要同时达到学术成就和成为称职父母根本不可能，于是果断调整了目标。

And what it takes to be successful in the best job and what it takes to be successful and satisfied with your significant other and family may put you in a situation of perpetual conflict. And you know, this actually happened to me. I was an ambitious person when I started teaching at Swarthmore and I had aspirations to become one of the leaders in the field. But then we had our first kid and it became obvious that there was simply no way I could do the things that I thought were necessary to attain a certain stature in my field and also be a good parent. So I immediately reset my sights.

我不再执着于登顶，而是满足于成为受尊重的领域贡献者，且只做不影响育儿的工作。这自然限制了职业投入时间。这种冲突显而易见——但凡事业家庭都想兼顾的人都会面临。

I didn't want necessarily to be at the top of my field. I wanted to be a respectable and respected contributor to my field, but I was only going to do work that did not get in the way of being a good parent. And that was gonna limit the amount of time I spent on the job. So the conflict was obvious. I think people who have demanding jobs and want families, everybody experiences this conflict.

你可以通过雇佣各类育儿服务来缓解，或是把负担不公平地转嫁给伴侣。但关键是要清醒地与自己谈判——如果家庭对你重要，就必须关注那些择业时看似微不足道的岗位特性。冲突确实无处不在。

You can buy your way out of it by getting childcare of various kinds. You can buy your way out of it by being unfair to your partner. And so you need to negotiate with yourself and have your eyes open. And if this matters to you, you gotta pay attention to aspects of the job that probably seem fairly trivial when you're deciding what career path to follow. So absolutely, there are conflicts.

所以你终归会对某些结果感到些许遗憾。

And so you're always gonna end up a little disappointed with outcomes.

因此，为了做出更好的决策，我们需要具备反思性、开放心态、自我认知和自我接纳。但巴里自己能否在生活中践行这些建议呢？广告之后，我们将听到巴里如何将这些经验应用于近期一个改变人生的决定，我也会向他请教关于我正面临的一个重大抉择的建议。《幸福实验室》稍后继续。《幸福实验室》由Amica保险荣誉赞助。

So to make better decisions, we need to be reflective, open minded, self aware, and accepting of ourselves. But is Barry able to follow his advice in his own life? After the break, we'll hear how Barry applied these lessons to a recent life altering decision, and I'll ask him for some guidance on a big decision I'm facing myself. The Happiness Lab will be right back. The Happiness Lab is proudly sponsored by Amica Insurance.

正如Amica所言，共情是最佳策略。因此他们会不遗余力地为您量身定制最适合的保险方案。无论您是在路上、在家中，还是处于人生旅程中，他们友善专业的代表都将与您合作，确保您获得恰当的保障。Amica为您带来安心保障。立即访问amica.com获取报价。

As Amica says, empathy is our best policy. That's why they'll go above and beyond to tailor your insurance coverage to best fit your needs. Whether you're on the road, at home, or traveling along life's journey, their friendly and knowledgeable representatives will work with you to ensure you have the right coverage in place. Amica will provide you with peace of mind. Go to amica.com and get a quote today.

有意义的联系往往出现在你最意想不到的微小惊喜时刻。因此我非常高兴今天的赞助商Bumble能让人们更容易注意到这些火花。通过共同兴趣和话题提示等功能，你可以在个人资料中展现个性，与懂你的人建立联系。如果你好奇谁能给生活增添更多欢乐，Bumble是个绝佳的起点。准备好遇见那个特别的人了吗？

Meaningful connections often show up when you least expect it in those small surprising moments. So I'm very excited that today's sponsor, Bumble, makes it easier to notice those little sparks. With features like shared interests and prompts, you can showcase your personality right on your profile and connect with people who get your vibe. So if you're curious about who might bring a little more joy into your life, Bumble is a great place to start. Ready to meet someone great?

在Bumble开启你的爱情故事。AutoTrader由汽车智能驱动，提供高度个性化的购车方式。其工具会根据您的预算和偏好同步数据，完全为您定制购车体验。预算功能让您输入信息后查看符合价位的车型，搜索库存则帮您锁定梦想之车。

Start your love story on Bumble. AutoTrader is powered by auto intelligence, the hyper personalized way to buy a car. AutoTrader's tools sync with your exact budget and preferences to tailor the car shopping experience totally to you. Budgeting lets you input your info to see listings in your price range. Search and inventory helps zero in on your dream car.

您可选择新车或二手车、车型款式，以及发动机排量、颜色等细节配置，甚至包括是否需要拖车挂钩。尽管挑剔——无需担心无尽翻页。由汽车智能驱动的AutoTrader仅显示您负担得起且符合需求的车辆，而比价功能会标出最优交易，让您无需议价就赢得谈判。您还可选择线上、线下或混合方式完成交易。

You can choose from new or pre owned, the style of the car, and the features like engine size, color, all the way down to whether you want a trailer hitch. Go ahead and get picky. Don't worry about scrolling endlessly. Auto Trader powered by auto intelligence only shows you vehicles based on what you can afford and what you want, And pricing shows you which listings are the best deal, so you can feel like you're winning the negotiation without negotiating. You can even choose how to close the deal, online, at the dealership, or a little of both.

由汽车智能驱动的AutoTrader让购车过程不再繁琐。立即体验，访问autotrader.com寻找您的理想座驾。现在让我们聊聊如何将这些决策策略应用于现实抉择。我知道您最近做了些重大决定。

Autotrader powered by auto intelligence makes the process of buying a car less of a process. Try it today. Visit autotrader.com to find your perfect ride. And so let's talk about how we put these kinds of decision making strategies into practice in a real world decision. I know you've made some big decisions recently.

您最近退休并跨州搬迁。能否说明这种不同于理性选择理论的'美好生活'理念是如何影响您做出这个决定的？

You recently retired and moved across the country. Explain how this kind of take on the good life that's different from rational choice theory entered into your decision to do that.

所以当时并没有电子表格来计算留在费城斯沃斯莫尔学院任教的成本收益，与搬去西海岸靠近子女和孙辈的成本收益。没有电子表格并非偶然。我绞尽脑汁也无法用数字量化西迁的好处与离开东部的损失。我热爱斯沃斯莫尔的工作，也深爱我的孩子们和孙辈们。

So there was no spreadsheet calculating the costs and benefits of staying Philadelphia and teaching at Swarthmore and the costs and benefits of moving to the West Coast to be closer to my kids and my grandkids. And it wasn't an accident that there was no spreadsheet. I, for the life of me, can't understand how I could have quantitatively compared what was good about coming West and what was bad about leaving the East. I loved my job at Swarthmore. I love my kids and my grandkids.

我不知该如何计算这个正确决定。于是在我的道德指南——我妻子的帮助下，我们反复思考、讨论，从各个角度审视：我们将放弃什么？

I did not know how to calculate the right decision. And so with the help of my moral guide, who is my wife, we thought about it. We talked about it. We looked at it from various different angles. What would we be giving up?

又将获得什么？无需直接比较。我们沉浸在这个潜在决定中，感受想象自己成为西海岸半退休者的心境。经过无数次的左右权衡后，我们认定这个节点值得搬迁——因为现实是，虽然继续现有生活也能获得满足，但实在难以忍受对家人的思念。最终让决定变简单的，是我当时突发需要手术的严重病症（虽属暂时）。

What would we be gaining? Without directly comparing them. We sat with a potential decision, see how it felt to imagine ourselves as mostly retired people on the West Coast. And after a lot of uncertainty and a lot of on the one hand and on the other hand, we decided that this was a point where it made sense to make the move because the truth was that we could keep doing what we were doing and get satisfaction out of it, but we really missed seeing the family. That said, what turned out to make the decision for us easier is that I had a temporary but serious illness that required surgery.

两个女儿都说：你们不能住在三千英里之外。她们是对的。衰老的残酷在于其不可逆性。我这次病情虽是偶发，但未来类似状况必将频现。若相隔三千英里，子女参与照护将如同煎熬。

And both of our daughters said, you cannot live 3,000 miles away. They were right. The thing about aging is it only goes in one direction. It was anomalous for me to have had this problem when I did, but there was no question that the future was going to be full of such things. And it was gonna be torture for them to be trying to be involved in our care at a distance of 3,000 miles.

这让原本艰难的决定变得简单许多。况且我们都适应力强——这是关键。决策未必完美，但你可以调整生活方式、重塑价值观念，让既成选择变得越来越好。

And that made what seemed a really hard decision into a much easier one. And we're both adaptable. That's the other thing. Make a decision and it's not perfect. And then you find ways to change how you live and change what you value so that you make the decision you made into a better one.

倒不是要自我夸耀，毕竟搬到环境严苛的湾区，总比不上越战艰苦。幸亏孩子们没住在内布拉斯加——无意冒犯当地。但

So I don't want to pat myself on the back. It's not exactly like fighting in Vietnam to move to the incredibly harsh and unpleasant Bay Area. Thank God my kids don't live in Nebraska. And I got nothing against Nebraska. But

更艰难的决定。确实更艰难。

Harder decision. A harder decision. Yeah.

那样会让这个决定变得更难做。

That would have made it a harder decision.

所以看起来你在那种情况下选择不去依赖电子表格，而是更倾向于问自己的感受？你的人生目标是什么？你知道，工作中需要目标感，但可能你得到的越来越少。而与家人保持联系则能带来更多的目标感。你可以通过照顾孩子来增强这种目标感。

So it seems like what you did in that case is to not go to the spreadsheet, to try to go more towards what do you feel? What are the purposes in your life? You know, you need purpose in your work, but maybe you're getting less. There's much more purpose in being connected to your family. You can enhance your kid's purpose of taking care of you.

而且你似乎带着一种彻底的接纳态度来的。对吧？不会有完美的决定。总是有利有弊，而你某种程度上接受了这种不确定性。我觉得这正是现代人所缺乏的。

It also seemed like you came with a lot of radical acceptance. Right? There's not gonna be a perfect decision. There's always gonna be pluses and minuses, and you kinda accepted the uncertainty. I think this is what we don't do in the modern age.

这总是被称为不确定条件下的决策，但我们讨厌不确定性。我们真的很想消除它，而且我们愿意相信有办法做到这一点。而你却带着一种接纳的态度，认为事情总是充满不确定性。我们永远无法知道这是否是完美的决定。

It's always called decision under uncertainty, but we hate the uncertainty. We really want it to go away, and we like to believe there's a way to do that. Whereas you kind of came in with the acceptance of, like, well, it's always gonna be uncertain. We will never know if it was the perfect decision.

是的。我认为你可以事先知道这不是一个完美的决定。是的。任何值得你思考超过五分钟的决定，你几乎可以保证它不会是完美的。它可能是正确的决定，但不是完美的决定。

Yeah. I think you can know in advance that it isn't a perfect decision. Yeah. Any decision worth thinking about for more than five minutes, you can virtually guarantee will not be a perfect decision. It may be the right decision, but it's not a perfect decision.

你会放弃一些东西。经济学家有一个有用的概念叫机会成本。每当你做一件事时，有一百万件其他事情是你本可以做但不会去做的。如果你认为有一种方法可以在不牺牲其他事情的情况下，投入时间、精力和资源去做一件事，那你只是在自欺欺人。所以这样思考问题，知道你会怀念你离开的那种生活的某些方面，这必须是决策过程的一部分。

You give things up. Economists have a useful idea of opportunity cost. Anytime you do one thing, there are a million other things that you will not be doing that you could be doing. And if you think there's a way to devote time, effort, and resources to one thing without paying a price with respect to other things, you're just kidding yourself. So thinking about things that way, knowing that there will be aspects of the life you're leaving that you will miss, just has to be part of the drill.

关于电子表格，我想说的是，我认为电子表格非常有用，只要你不填写单元格。重要的是确定对你重要的决策方面和可用的选项。现在你已经完成了电子表格擅长的工作。因为现在你至少可以相当确定你没有忽略重要的事情。但你不能用数字填满电子表格，然后认为这不是幻想。

And the thing I would say about spreadsheets, I think spreadsheets are extremely useful as long as you don't fill in the cells. It is important to identify the aspects of a decision that matter to you and the options that are available. And now you've done all the work that a spreadsheet is good for. Because now at least you can be reasonably sure that you are not ignoring something important. But you can't fill the spreadsheet in with numbers and think that this is other than a fantasy.

我是电子表格的爱好者。但认为做电子表格就能让决策自动生成的想法，纯属幻想。

So I'm a fan of spreadsheets. But the notion that somehow doing a spreadsheet makes your decision sort of automatic, that's just fantasy.

读你的书很有趣，因为我和丈夫正面临一个重大决定：是否应该在波士顿地区买房，尽管我们住在纽黑文地区。买房时总会遇到各种电子表格选项对吧？比如价格、税费等等。

It was funny reading your book because my husband and I are trying to make a big decision about whether or not we should buy a house and buy a house in the Boston area even though we live in the New Haven area. And when you're buying a house, you have a lot of the spreadsheet choices. Right? Yes. The price and the taxes and all the stuff.

但你的书让我意识到，或许这些并不是我真正需要关注的重点。那么巴里·施瓦茨教授，关于是否买房的建议，我究竟该考虑什么？

But reading your book has caused me to think maybe those aren't the things I'm supposed to be paying attention to. So Barry Schwartz's advice, whether or not to buy a house, what should I be thinking of?

这些数据确实需要关注，但并非全部。你不该试图在量化指标和质性因素间做简单换算。核心问题是：我们负担得起吗？将流动资产转为不动产是否财务轻率？这些都是可量化的关键问题。

Well, those things are things you should be paying attention to. They're not the only things that you should be paying attention to, and you shouldn't feel like you should be able to trade off quantitative things against qualitative things. You know, the basic question is can we afford it? Is it financially reckless to turn liquid assets into illiquid assets? There are all kinds of very quantifiable questions that should be asked and answered.

此外还有无法量化的生活质量问题。最终这些因素必须整合成决策——毕竟你不可能既买房又不买房。但认为做好所有功课决策就会自动呈现，这正是本书要破除的迷思。真正的决策从来不会自动完成。

Then there are quality of life questions, none of which are quantitative. And then somehow those things have to get put together into a decision since you can't both buy a house and not buy a house. But the notion that if you do all of your homework carefully, the decision will make itself, that's the notion that this book is designed to wipe out of people's minds. Decisions don't make themselves if they're being done right.

这个决定显然不会自动生成...我们进行了大量讨论。

This decision is definitely not making. Not making. There's a lot there's a lot of conversation.

如果选择在波士顿买房，你就要放弃美味披萨了。

You're giving up on good pizza if you buy a house in Boston.

确实如此。确实如此。确实如此。不，我的意思是，我觉得在我们读这本书时做出这个决定很有趣，因为我观察到我们的大脑多么迅速地想要转向数字。

It's true. It's true. It's true. No. It's been I mean, I think it's it's funny making this decision as we read this book because I watch how quickly our brains wanna go into the numbers.

这是一种摆脱责任的方式。你知道吗？我只是按照数字告诉我的去做。

It's a way of relieving yourself of responsibility. You know? I'm doing what the numbers tell me to do.

我是说，更难的问题是，比如，拥有院子或不拥有院子我们能得到什么？以及我们从中获得的社会联系是什么？随着年龄增长，拥有三层楼意味着什么？是的，这些问题都很棘手。

I mean, it's so much harder to ask the question of, like, well, what do we get out of having a yard or not having a yard and the social connection we get? And what does it mean to get older and have a third floor? And Yep. Like, those are hard questions.

这些是非常非常难的问题。所以，是的，买房是一场噩梦。我祝你好运。

They are very, very hard questions. So, yeah, house buying is a it's a nightmare. I wish you the best of luck.

谢谢。谢谢。谢谢。嗯，现在我有一本非常有用的好书可以帮忙，这对我帮助很大。巴里，像往常一样，这真是一种享受。

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Well, now I have a really lovely book that I can use to help out that's been helpful. Barry, as usual, this is such a treat.

非常感谢你再次来到《幸福实验室》。

Thank you so much for coming back on The Happiness Lab.

我也有同样的感受，感谢你对这个话题如此感兴趣，邀请我回来。

I feel exactly the same way, and I thank you for being interested enough in it to have me back.

在这个约会软件用匹配百分比衡量缘分、社交媒体以粉丝数定义价值、绩效指标决定职场晋升的世界里，我们很容易陷入将一切量化的陷阱。但请记住，人生最重要的决定往往无法用数字衡量。下次当你开始罗列利弊或试图为复杂处境计算最优解时，请暂停片刻，提醒自己本无完美选择。然后问问自己：你了解自己的哪些特质？你的核心价值观是什么？当前处境如何？要知道，'足够好'有时恰恰就是'非常棒'。

In a world where dating apps assign us compatibility percentages and social media defines relevance by follower counts and performance metrics dictate promotions at work, it's easy to fall into the trap of seeing everything as quantifiable. But it's important to remember that you can't always assign numbers to life's most important decisions. So the next time you catch yourself ranking pros and cons or trying to calculate the best possible choice for some complicated situation, take a pause and just remind yourself that there's no perfect choice. Then ask what you know about yourself, your values, and your situation. And remember that good enough can sometimes be totally great.

以上就是我们2025年度最爱新书特辑的全部内容。若想获取更多新书推荐，请务必订阅我的电子通讯，您可以在我的网站doctorlauriesantos.com上注册。网址是doctorlauriesantos.com。如果您喜欢本节目内容，也欢迎在社交媒体关注我，那里会有更多基于实证的幸福建议，以及节目幕后花絮。

That's it for our special season on my favorite new books of 2025. But if you want even more tips on newer books to check out, then be sure to sign up for my newsletter, which you can do on my website, doctorlauriesantos.com. That's doctorlauriesantos.com. And if you like what you hear on the show, be sure to follow me on social media. You'll get even more evidence based happiness tips as well as behind the scenes moments from the show.

别忘了在收听平台为节目留下评价，这能帮助我将幸福科学传播给更多人。《幸福实验室》将于两周后篮球赛季开幕时回归，我们将采访一位致力于让心理健康对话常态化的球员，他将为我们重新定义幸福与成功提供绝佳建议。敬请期待下期《幸福实验室》，我是劳里·桑托斯博士。

And don't forget to drop a review of the show wherever you listen. It really does help me spread the science of happiness with even more people. The Happiness Lab will be back in two weeks to celebrate the start of basketball season. We'll meet a player who's trying to normalize conversations about mental health and who has some great advice for how all of us can redefine happiness and success. All that next time on The Happiness Lab with me, doctor Laurie Santos.

心理学证实，期待感是情绪提升剂。而罗德岛之旅正是绝佳的期待对象！在这个海洋之州，您将找到满足所有味蕾的美食、惊艳的购物体验、令人窒息的天然景致，以及经济实惠的住宿选择。犒赏自己一份小确幸，从今天开始期待这场难忘旅程吧。罗德岛，应有尽有。

Having something to look forward to is a proven mood booster. And what better thing to look forward to than a vacation to Rhode Island? In the Ocean State, you'll find a cuisine for every taste, amazing shopping, breathtaking natural scenery, and accommodations that won't break the bank. Treat yourself to a little bit of happiness and start looking forward to an unforgettable trip today. Rhode Island, all that.

旅行规划请访问visitrhodeisland.com。您可能听我说过：人际联结是幸福的最大密钥。而我推崇的方式是'不完美待客之道'——即使家里不够整洁，也要邀请朋友来做客。

Plan your getaway at visitrhodeisland.com. That's visitrhodeisland.com. You've probably heard me say this. Connection is one of the biggest keys to happiness. And one of my favorite ways to build that, scruffy hospitality, inviting people over even when things aren't perfect.

因为仅仅是相聚、谈笑、下厨的过程就令人愉悦。这正是我钟爱博世的原因——搭载VitaFresh技术的博世冰箱能延长食材保鲜期，让您随时准备好烹饪并共享温馨时刻。新鲜食材既传递关怀，也让所爱之人感受到重视。了解更多信息

Because just being together, laughing, chatting, cooking makes you feel good. That's why I love Bosch. Bosch fridges with VitaFresh technology keep ingredients fresher longer, so you're always ready to whip up a meal and share a special moment. Fresh foods show you care, and it shows the people you love that they matter. Learn more.

请访问boschhomeus.com。您为追寻幸福付出诸多努力，但是否有隐形的阻碍？这正是我推荐questhealth.com的原因——无需医生预约，在线即可购买实验室检测服务。

Visit boschhomeus.com. You spend a lot of time chasing happiness, but what if something is silently holding you back? That's why I'm a fan of questhealth.com. You can buy your own lab tests online. No doctor visit required.

从激素检测到营养评估等100多种不同测试中任选所需。在线购买检测后，只需前往就近的Quest检测点采样，即可快速在线获取结果。限时优惠期间，在questhealth.com官网结账时使用优惠码happiness10，即可享受指定实验室检测项目折扣。条款适用。本节目由iHeart播客出品。

Choose from over a 100 different tests, from hormones to nutrition and so much more. After you buy a test online, just visit a nearby Quest location for sample collection and get results online fast. And for a limited time, you can save on select lab tests at questhealth.com when you use code happiness 10 at checkout. Terms apply. This is an iHeart podcast.