别再在意他人对你的看法（布鲁斯·胡德做客《与丹·哈里斯一起快乐10%》）

这里是iHeart播客。

This is an iHeart podcast.

为什么TSA的规定这么让人困惑？你穿了件连帽衫。要脱下来吗？

Why are TSA rules so confusing? You got a hoodie. Wanna take it off?

我是曼尼。我是诺亚。这位是德文。

I'm Manny. I'm Noah. This is Devin.

我们是最好的朋友兼记者，主持一档名为《无稽之谈》的新播客，专门深挖这类问题。你冲我吼什么我又不知道规矩。要是规定明确尽管冲我来。我活该。你知道的，把他关起来。

And we're best friends and journalists with a new podcast called no such thing, where we get to the bottom of questions like that. Why are you screaming at I can't expect what to do. Now if the rule was the same Go off on me. I deserve it. You know, lock him up.

请在iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客或任何你获取播客的平台收听《无稽之谈》。

Listen to No Such Thing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

无稽之谈。

No such thing.

你是否在寻找让日常生活更快乐、更健康、更高效、更有创意的方法？我是格雷琴·鲁宾，《快乐计划》的畅销书作者，在《与格雷琴·鲁宾一起更快乐》播客中为你带来新见解和实用解决方案。我的联合主持兼快乐实验对象是我的妹妹伊丽莎白·克拉夫特。

Are you looking for ways to make your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one best selling author of The Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. My cohost and happiness guinea pig is my sister, Elizabeth Kraft.

我就是伊丽莎白·克拉夫特，好莱坞的电视编剧兼制片人。加入我们，一起探索关于培养快乐和好习惯的点子和技巧。

That's me, Elizabeth Kraft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore ideas and hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits.

欢迎收听Lemonada Media出品的《与格雷琴·鲁宾一起更快乐》。

Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from Lemonada Media.

这里是Pushkin。《快乐实验室》的暑期休整即将结束。没错。劳动节后我们将带来新一季节目，附赠返校书单，推荐今年我最爱的心理学书籍。和往常一样，新一季将满载你一定会喜欢的快乐秘诀，我们的书单还包括几位我个人的偶像。

Pushkin. The Happiness Lab summer break is almost over. Yeah. After Labor Day, we'll be bringing you a new season with a back to school reading list featuring some of my favorite psychology books of the year. As usual, this new season will be packed with happiness tips that I'm sure you'll love, and our list includes some of my personal heroes.

所以准备好迎接你最喜欢的播客主持人即将开启的学术模式吧。但在那之前，我想分享《幸福实验室》两位老友的对话。今天你将听到《10%更快乐》播客的最新一期，了不起的丹·哈里斯采访了我曾经的导师布鲁斯·胡德教授。布鲁斯在英国的布里斯托大学讲授着和我在耶鲁教授的同款幸福课程。如果你喜欢这期节目——说真的谁会不喜欢呢——记得把丹·哈里斯的《10%更快乐》加入你的播客订阅列表。

So get ready for your favorite podcast host to be nerding out a bit. But before all that, I wanna share a conversation between two longtime friends of the Happiness Lab. Today, you'll get to hear a recent episode of the 10% Happier podcast where the amazing Dan Harris interviews my former mentor, professor Bruce Hood. Bruce teaches the same happiness class I teach at Yale to his own students at the University of Bristol in England. If you like the episode, and really, why wouldn't you, be sure to add 10% happier with Dan Harris to your podcast rotation.

嘿，大家好。今天我们要和世界顶尖的幸福专家探讨：如何在降低分心、自我中心、过度自省和有害攀比的同时，提升你的满足感与乐观指数。很棒的配方对吧？

Hey. Hey, everybody. How are doing? Today, we're gonna talk to one of the world's leading happiness experts about how to boost your levels of okayness and optimism while turning down the volume on distraction, egocentrism, self consciousness, and toxic comparison. Pretty good recipe.

布鲁斯·胡德自1999年起担任布里斯托大学发展心理学与社会学教授。他获得剑桥大学神经科学博士学位后，先后任职于伦敦大学学院、麻省理工学院，并获哈佛大学终身教职。他研究儿童发展、迷信起源、自我认知与所有权概念。但过去五年来，他真正专注的是如何让学生更幸福。正如你将听到的，他注意到学生幸福指数急剧下降，这与该领域的整体数据趋势一致。

Bruce Hood has been the professor of developmental psychology in society at Bristol University since 1999. He got a PhD in neuroscience at Cambridge, followed by appointments at University College London, MIT, and a faculty professorship at Harvard. He researches child development, origins of superstition, self identity, and ownership. For the past five years, however, he's really been concentrating on how to make his students happier. As you'll hear him say here, he noticed a steep decline in happiness levels among his students, which tracks with the overall data on this front.

因此他写了这本——我不想说是新书——最新著作《幸福的科学：美好生活的七堂课》。本次对话我们将探讨：如何定义幸福（这其实是个相当滑头的概念）；如何在人生低谷保持快乐；如何从自我中心转向他者中心（本质上是建立联结）；社交隔离的影响及规避方法；乐观主义的挑战与提升技巧；通过冥想进入心流状态；强化社交联结；所谓'真正纯粹幸福'的来源；掌控注意力并拒绝消极比较；自然的作用等等。

And so he's written a book. I don't wanna call it new, but it's his latest book, and it's called the science of happiness, seven lessons for living well. In this conversation, we talk about how do you define happiness. It's a pretty slippery term, actually. How to be happy when you're in the middle of a shit show, how to shift from being egocentric or self focused to allocentric, meaning essentially interconnected, the impacts of social isolation and how to avoid that, the challenge of optimism and how to overcome it and actually boost your optimism quotient, finding a flow state through meditation, how to enhance your social connections where, quote, unquote, true authentic happiness comes from, controlling your attention and rejecting negative comparisons, the role of nature, and much more.

顺带一提，如果你想专门减少过度思考——这是包括我在内许多人的通病——我们为本期节目定制了引导冥想练习，来自本月特邀导师唐·莫里西奥。整个四月期间，这些冥想仅限在DanHarris.com订阅付费会员。类比来说，这个播客就像学校的理论课，而引导冥想则是实验室——把对话中的智慧锤进你的神经元。订阅后可获得所有冥想课程、无广告播客版本，以及我主持的实时冥想视频课。

By the way, if you wanna learn how to reduce your overthinking specifically, which is a big problem for many of us, myself included, if you wanna learn how to turn down the volume on that, we have a custom guided meditation for you specifically tailored to this episode. It comes from our teacher of the month, Don Mauricio. Throughout this entire month, we're offering these meditations only to paid subscribers who sign up at Dan Harris dot com. The analogy we like to use is that you can think of this podcast as the lecture, like when you were in school, and the guided meditations are like the lab where you pound the wisdom of the conversation into your neurons. You can get all of the meditations plus ad free versions of this podcast and access to my live video sessions where I guide meditation.

这些福利都能在danharris.com获取。欢迎加入！布鲁斯·胡德教授，欢迎来到节目。

You can get all of that and much more over at danharris.com. Join the party. Professor Bruce Hood, welcome to the show.

你好，丹。

Hello, Don.

我想了解这本幸福著作的背景。据我所知——如果事实有误请纠正——你职业生涯大部分时间作为神经科学家研究儿童发展并从事教学。后来你注意到大学生们的变化，促使你转向幸福研究。我的理解大致准确吗？

I'd love to get a little backstory on this book on happiness. As I understand it, and you'll correct me if I run afoul of the facts here, but you spent much of your career as a neuroscientist studying childhood development and also teaching. And you started to notice a change in your college students, which prompted you to pivot into looking at happiness. Am I roughly in the zone here?

完全正确。我的职业生涯漫长而多元，像只喜鹊般对任何激发好奇心的事物都感兴趣。我一直着迷于人类心智及其发展过程。

Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I've, had a long and varied career, and I I'm a bit of a magpie. I'm really interested in anything which stimulates my curiosity. And I've always been fascinated by the human mind and how it develops.

这驱使我研究儿童发展的神经科学。我的研究对象从新生儿重症监护室23天大的婴儿直到成年人。但2018年布里斯托大学发生多起学生自杀悲剧，这实际上是学生心理健康问题持续恶化的顶峰。

So that was my interest in the neuroscience of child development. I've studied everything. Babies as young as 23, up in the maturity hospital, all the way up into adulthood. But about 2018, we had a tragic set of events at Bristol University with the loss of several students. And this was really the peak of a rising tide in student mental health issues.

面对这些不快乐的年轻人，我感到有些绝望，因为在我看来，大学本应是你生命中最美好、最有收获的时光。然而他们却如此沉迷于自己的心理健康和表现，以至于几乎无法教学，因为他们真的非常痛苦。巧合的是，我四处了解后发现，我以前的学生劳里·桑托斯——我想她是你的好朋友——在耶鲁也遇到了类似的问题。这让我意识到，问题并非布里斯托特有，而是整个教育领域的普遍现象。整整一代学生正变得越来越不快乐。

And I was feeling kind of desperate with all these unhappy young adults because for me, university should be the best time of your life, the most rewarding. And yet they were so preoccupied with their mental health and their performance that they were becoming almost impossible to teach because they were really so distressed. And by coincidence, I was looking around and discovered that a former student of mine, Laurie Santos, who I believe is a good friend of yours, Laurie had encountered a very similar problem at Yale. And this led me to think, well, it wasn't Bristol per se, it's actually a sector wide issue. A whole generation of students are increasingly unhappy.

她设计了一门课程，我记得叫《心理学与美好生活》，我联系了劳里。这听起来真的太棒了。劳里一如既往地慷慨，把她的笔记和幻灯片发给了我，于是我整理出自己的版本，命名为《幸福的科学》。其实我只是抱着试试看的心态，希望它能带来些改变。这不是一门计入学分的课程。

And she put together a course, I think it was called Psychology and the Good Life, I contacted Laurie. So this sounds really, really great. And Laurie, being typically generous as she is, sent me her notes and some slides, and I put together my version I called The Science of Happiness. So I really just did it on the off chance that it might make some difference. It wasn't a credit bearing course.

课程只是随意开设的，安排在午餐时间。我记忆犹新，当时来了600人，甚至都没做宣传。

It was just offered. And I was at lunchtime. I remember it vividly. 600 turned up. So and I didn't even have to advertise it.

显然，这类信息存在巨大需求。这就是课程的起源。后来校方对反响非常满意，问我能否将其转为正式学分课程。于是自2019年起，这就成了我现在教授的单元。

So clearly, there was a demand for this sort of information. So that's how it started. And then the university was so delighted by the response. They said, look, can you turn this into a credit bearing course? And that became the unit that I now teach since 2019.

就像劳里的课程一样，这门课也非常受欢迎。

And that's like Laurie's course is very popular.

现在又出了书。

And now a book.

现在又出了书。我写过不少书，正如我所说，我真正感兴趣的是人类心智。那些初看并不特别却越深究越有趣的人类思维现象令我着迷。

And now a book. I mean, I've written a number of books. And as I say, my interests are really in the human mind. I'm fascinated by aspects of human thought that at first glance doesn't seem more surprising. And then when you drill down into it, it could be really interesting.

我对背后的机制理论特别感兴趣。市面上关于幸福的书已经够多了，但我觉得可以从我的视角贡献些不同的内容——更多探讨为什么，更多分析那些促成或阻碍幸福的机制。这就是我认为自己对文献的贡献所在。

And I'm really fascinated by the theory behind the mechanisms. So there's more than enough happiness books out there. But I thought I could contribute something from my perspective, which is more about why, more about the mechanisms of what generates or gets in the way of achieving happiness. That's And what I felt was the contribution to the literature.

你对幸福有定义吗？

Do you have a definition of happiness?

经常有人这么问我。对我来说，简单来说就是一种舒适感——这是个非常宽泛的说法。情感上的舒适，恐惧消弭后的舒适。不是自满，而是一种安适的状态。

It's a question I'm often asked. For me, I just simply say it's a sense of things being comfortable. I mean that in a very general term. It's emotionally comfortable, a sense of fear being comfortable. Just that sense of not complacency, but comfort.

事情还算顺利。这就是我所说的幸福。当然，人们以不同方式使用这个词。有时他们指的是你的情绪、兴奋或快乐。有时人们指的是成功，他们的满足感。

Things are okay. That's what I mean by happiness. Though, of course, people use it in different ways. Sometimes they're referring to your mood and your elation or your joy. Sometimes it's people referring to success, their content.

但对我来说，幸福就是舒适。

But for me, it's comfort.

舒适。或者你会说‘尚可’是同义词吗？

Comfort. Or would you say okayness would be a synonym?

尚可。是的。如果这是个词的话，那就是尚可。事情只是进展得还行。对。

Okayness. Yeah. If that was a word, yeah, it would be okayness. Things are are just going okay. Yeah.

在人生不可避免的起伏中，你还能保持尚可、幸福和舒适吗？

Can you have okayness and happiness and comfort even in the midst of life's inevitable ups and downs?

嗯，这就是有趣之处，不是吗？从很多方面看，它本可能是衡量不幸的尺度，因为那或多或少是默认状态。我们的生活充满挑战，我认为真正区分一个人认为自己相对幸福还是不幸的，在于我们能在多大程度上应对这些挑战并从中恢复。感到不幸的人往往觉得自己没有进步、不舒服、压力大，对生活的许多方面都不满意。这通常是因为他们无法解决遇到的障碍，而我们都会面临这些。

Well, that's the interesting thing, isn't it? I mean, in many ways, it could have been the size of unhappiness because that's more or less the default. Our lives are full of challenges, and it's the extent to which we can address these challenges and rebound back from them, I think, is really what marks the difference between someone who regards their life as being relatively happy compared to someone who feels unhappy. Someone who's unhappy tends to feel that they're not progressing, they're uncomfortable, they're feeling stressed, they're not enjoying many aspects of it. And very often it's because they're unable to address whatever obstacles are happening to them, and we all face them.

在课程中，我们教授的就是这些。真正重要的是如何处理那些负面事件，如何应对、解决它们，如何培养韧性。我认为这正是我们努力实现的目标。

And on the course, that's what we kind of teach. It's really how to process those negative events, how to deal with them, how to resolve them, how to build resilience. And I think that's really what we're trying to achieve.

在我深受影响的佛教教义中，想到的词是‘平等心’，我认为它就像面对生活灾难时的一种尚可状态。

In the dharma in Buddhism by which I'm deeply influenced, the word that's coming to mind is equanimity, which I think of as like an okayness in the face of life's catastrophes.

是的。我觉得这个词概括得很好。当然，另一件事是没有所谓的永久幸福。那会是一种非常奇怪和别扭的心理状态。在很多方面，你必须经历负面，才能欣赏事情顺利的时候。

Yeah. I think that captures it very well. And the other thing, of course, is that there's no such thing as permanent happiness. That would be a very awkward and weird state of mind. In many ways, you have to experience the negative in order to appreciate when things are going well for you.

但再次强调，克服这些的稳定性以及你能多快做到这一点——当你沉浸在痛苦和消极想法中时，那通常就是不幸福，至少对我来说是这样。

But again, it's this stability to overcome this and the speed at which you can do that is when you're wallowing in misery and wallowing in those negative thoughts, that's generally what unhappiness is, to me at least.

是的。我只是在想我自己的经历，我一直公开谈论这件事。我和前联合创始人共同创立了一款冥想应用，经历了三年多的离婚过程，这对我来说非常痛苦。这不是在指责我的前合伙人，这段分离是双方共同造成的，但那些年里我感受到的愤怒和焦虑异常强烈，可能是我成年后经历过最艰难的事情。

Yeah. I'm just thinking in my own life, I've been very public about this. I went through a three plus year divorce from my former co founders of a meditation app that I co founded, and it was very traumatic for me. That's not to cast dispersions at my former co founders. It took two to tango in this separation, but the amount of anger and anxiety that I felt in those years was intense, probably the most difficult thing I've gone through as an adult.

然而，在整个过程中我大体上是快乐的。没错。我的人际关系很好，心态也相当积极。虽然生活中存在失眠、愤怒、焦虑等挑战，但那几年也是我人生中非常美好的时光。

And yet, I was generally happy during the whole thing. Yeah. My relationships were really good, and my outlook was reasonably positive. And there were challenges in my life, insomnia, anger, anxiety, and also they were great years in my life.

是的。我认为这反映了你为那项事业付出的努力以及对其的个人情感投入。正是在这类情况下，你会感受到——不是绝望，而是远超你想象的深刻影响。我过去也创业过，那就像你的小孩，你的宝贝，你希望它成长茁壮，会非常保护它。当它受到威胁或被夺走时，那种分离焦虑和失落感——我完全理解。

Yeah. And I I think it reflects the effort you put into that business and the personal attachment to it. And those are exactly the sorts of situations where you can feel really, you know, not so much desperate, but it really can impact on you more than you would imagine. I've done a startup in the past and it's your little child, it's your baby, you know, you want it to grow and you want it to thrive and you're very protective of it, and of course, when it starts to be threatened or taken away from you, it's a separation anxiety, a separation loss, so I totally get it.

对，我的重点不在于失去，而在于说明：如果你掌握了我们即将讨论的、你书中描述的那些技巧，即使在糟糕的处境中也能保持快乐。

Yes, my point was less about the loss and more about the fact that you can be happy if you're working on the skills that we're gonna talk about that you describe in your book. One can be happy in the midst of a shit show.

噢，没错。是的。我完全同意这个观点。

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. I agree with that as well.

我是说，生活中总有不如意的方面。但回到开篇那句话，总体上保持'一切都在可控范围内'的平衡感很重要。

I mean, we all have facets of our life, sometimes it's not always working perfectly. But in general, going back to that opening statement, it's a general sense that things are okay as it were on balance.

是的。这本书围绕七个课程展开。我们逐一看看——虽然可能讲不完，但都很有意思。第一课是'调整自我'，这个说法我很喜欢。

Yes. The book is structured around seven lessons. Let's walk through them. I don't know if we'll get through all of them, but they're really interesting. Lesson one is alter your ego, which I really like as a phrase.

你具体指什么？

What do you mean by that?

问题在于大多数人活在自我构建的精神世界里。我们的意识、感受和情绪构成了心智内容。人最初都是以自我为中心的个体，儿童时期甚至难以理解他人有独立思想，无法想象别人的想法。童年重要的发展过程就是学会认知他人有不同的思想和感受，进而学会合作交流。

So one of the problems, I think, is that most of us live inside our heads. What I mean by that is our conscious awareness and our feelings and our emotions are the contents of our minds. And so we start off as a very egocentric individual. As children, we literally have difficulty conceiving other people's minds and imagining what other people are thinking about. And that's actually one of the major developmental processes over childhood is learning to appreciate that other people have different thoughts and have different feelings and reading other people and then learning to cooperate and communicate and interact with them in a way.

但我们从未摆脱自我中心的倾向。我们仍习惯从自身视角看问题——这本身没问题，除非开始过度自我批判。关键就在于：儿童是极度自我中心的。

But we never lose the egocentric bias or dominance. So, we still tend to see things from our own perspective. That can be okay unless you start to turn in on yourself and start to become your own worst critic. I think this is the point. Children are very egocentric.

他们认为自己是最快的跑者，总是试图在父母面前表现。但随着他们开始融入并与其他孩子相处，许多焦虑和社会地位问题便开始渗入他们的思维过程。于是，他们开始发展出威胁自尊的特质，变得更加在意自身地位和他人评价，对批评异常敏感。这就是为什么青春期典型特征包括渴望归属感、渴望被接纳，以及为何被排斥会如此痛苦——因为我们本质上是社会性动物。我知道你在之前的播客中也讨论过这一点。

They think they're the fastest runners and they're always trying to show up to their parents. But as they start to become enculturated and mixed with other children, then a lot of their anxieties and social statuses start to enter into those thought processes. So, they start to develop aspects which are threatening self esteem, and we start to become more aware of our status and our standing and hypersensitive to criticism. That's why adolescence is very much typified by a sense of wanting to belong, wanting to be accepted, and why rejection is so painful because we're such a social animal. And I know you've talked about this on previous podcasts.

这绝对是与他人和谐相处的关键，因为最糟糕的做法就是自我孤立或被排斥。当我说要调整自我时，指的是从高度自我中心、向内审视的状态，转向考虑并融入他人。我称之为从自我中心思维转向他者中心思维。这种转变之所以有效，是因为它能减轻你在全局视角下感受到的痛苦或压力——当你开始意识到他人也有自己的生活难题时，若你更懂得欣赏他人的生活，自然就能更客观地看待自己的处境。

That is absolutely the imperative to kind of get on with everyone because the worst thing you could do is isolate or ostracize. So when I say alter your ego, I think you should shift from a kind of very selfward, inward looking sense of self to considering and integrating other people. So I call it a shift from egocentric to allocentric thinking. And the reason that really helps is I think it reduces the pain or the pressure that you feel when you see things in context, because you can start to see other people have things going on in their lives. When you become more appreciative of other people's lives, then I think it puts yours into perspective.

当然，你还能获得社交联结的所有益处以及他人给予的支持。如果像你说的只埋头处理自己的烂摊子，反而会陷入极度孤立并放大痛苦。这就是为什么我们需要更好地融入群体——所有证据都充分支持社交联结的价值。

And of course, you get the benefits of social connection and all the support that others can give you. If you're just dealing with your own shit show, as you say, then it can be incredibly isolating and amplified. And that's why I think we need to become more integrated. And all the evidence is totally in support of the notion of social connection.

那么如何从自我中心转向他者中心呢？

So how does one move from egocentrism to allocentrism?

其实很多积极心理学干预方法本质上就在做这件事。比如表达感恩或善行练习——当你实施善举时，实际上是在主动考虑他人处境；书写感恩时，你不仅意识到自己的幸运，更看到他人曾给予的帮助。这些行为都在强化你与周围人的联结感。

Well, many of the positive psychology interventions that people typically do are effectively doing that. So if you think of expressing gratitude or acts of kindness where you're actually forcefully taking into consideration other people's circumstances, if you're doing an act of kindness, you're literally reaching out to other people and trying to help them. So you kind of have to be a bit mindful of what their thoughts are about. If you're writing gratitude, you're starting to see yourself in the context of not only how lucky you are, but the way that other people have helped you along the way. And therefore, you're expressing that connectedness with others around you.

这是两种简单方法。我个人喜欢Ethan Cross提出的心理距离技术——通过语言转换跳出自我视角。我们多数人用第一人称思考（我/自己），但若改用第三人称描述（比如'布鲁斯正在和丹交谈'），这种语言转换能巧妙打破自我中心思维，其好处之一就是减弱负面想法的影响。

So those are two simple ways you can do that. One of the techniques I like, and I use it often in my public lectures, is Ethan Cross's work on psychological distancing, where you use language literally to get out of your head. So most of us think in the first person, you know, I, me and so on. But if you start talking about yourself in the third person, like Bruce is having this conversation with Dan, that linguistic shift tricks the mind of this egocentric perspective. And one of the benefits of that is it reduces sort of the impact of negative thoughts.

除非是皇室成员，否则没人会用第三人称自称。我在公开演讲时常演示这个技巧：先让观众用'我'描述遭遇的困境，他们会感觉很糟；但改用'布鲁斯遇到这个问题，他认为...'的句式后，由于语言制造的心理距离，困扰感就会减轻。这是个实用的小技巧。

But we never, unless we're royalty, we never talk about ourselves in the third person. It's a very unusual thing to do. So it's a kind of neat little party trick that I use to show that if you think about a problem and I say, okay, imagine something that's gone really terribly wrong for you at the moment and talk about it using I and express your feelings using I and me, people will then feel pretty rubbish. But if I say, now repeat that, but talk about as Bruce is having this discussion and he thinks it's not going so well and he's worried about it, when you distance yourself using language, then somehow it doesn't seem to affect you as much. So that's another kind of simple trick you can do.

不过说到底，我们大多数的社交互动本质上就是将注意力从内在转向外界，以实现与他人的交流和沟通。

But yeah, a lot of the things that we do, our social interactions by their very nature take us out of this very inwardly looking way in order to kind of interact and communicate with other people.

在这个因极端个人主义和技术发展导致日益孤立的时代很难做到。我想深入探讨你提出的三个从自我中心转向他者中心的建议。

Hard to do in an era of increasing isolation driven by, you know, rampant individualism and technology. I wanna pick up on and elaborate upon, you had three suggestions when it comes from moving from ecocentrism to allocentrism.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我想重点展开其中两点：善行、表达感激和心理疏离。关于善行，我的冥想老师约瑟夫·戈德斯坦有个小技巧——我经常引用他的话，都快构成剽窃了，不过我还是会注明出处。他的方法是：当你产生行善的念头时（我们每天都会冒出许多这样的念头），但多数时候我们会压制它们。

And I wanna just expand on two of them. The list, it was acts of kindness, expressing gratitude, and psychological distancing. So in terms of acts of kindness, one little hack within a hack comes from my meditation teacher, Joseph Goldstein, who I quote all the time to the point of closing in on plagiarism, except for I do give him credit. One of his little techniques is if you have a thought to do something generous, these thoughts come to us all day long. But mostly, we squelch them.

我们总想着'对方可能不需要'、'我没时间'或者'这太破费了'。但如果你能练习捕捉这些初始善念而不被后续顾虑干扰，想到就立刻行动。约瑟夫践行这个方法多年，我刚开始尝试。虽不总能做到，但每次付诸行动都收获巨大。

They may not want it, or I don't have time to do that, or actually, that's too expensive. But we have these thoughts. If you can try to make a practice of tuning into the thoughts and not getting suckered by the second thoughts so when you have a thought to give, do the thing. Joseph has been practicing this for many many years, and I'm more recently started. I don't always follow through, but when I do follow through, it's incredibly useful.

比如在纽约街头看到乞讨者，明明零钱就在背包里却因赶时间走过。等走出十米远，突然想'去他的'，转身回去给钱——这种感觉总是很棒。

Like, walking down the street in New York City, and I see somebody asking for money, but like, you know, my spare changes in my backpack, and I'm in a rush. And then, like, I'll get 10 feet down the street, and be like, you know what? Fuck it. Let me just get the money out and go back and do it. And it always feels good.

接着说心理疏离，伊桑·克罗斯多次提到这个概念对我影响很深。尤其在痛苦时刻，可以用第三人称自称，比如我会说'老兄，现在处境确实艰难'。我常用这招对付失眠。

Yeah. And then the other thing to pick up on on psychological distancing, Ethan Cross has been on the show several times. I'm deeply influenced by this notion of psychological distancing, especially in moments of suffering where, you know, you can use your own name or I'll say, dude. Like, dude, yeah, this is a brutal situation. I use it a lot with insomnia.

你今晚可能只睡两小时，明天大概率会情绪低落，但这种情况你经历过无数次了。没事的，第二天晚上就能睡着，所以没问题。

You're likely to get two hours of sleep tonight, and you are likely to be reasonably unhappy most of tomorrow, but you have been through this a million times. Yeah. You will be fine, and the next night, you know you will get sleep. So you're good. You're good.

这个方法效果惊人。

And it's enormously powerful.

完全同意。这就像从自我批判转为自我教练。

Yeah. Agree entirely. It is like, rather than being a critic, it's like being your coach.

没错。

Yes.

有时我们需要外界支持来获得新视角，但独自面对时容易陷入思维漩涡放大问题。这正是相关章节要探讨的。另外'自我'概念也很有趣——佛教徒应该很熟悉这个争议话题。

And hearing that support from someone else is just what you need sometimes to get perspective. But left to our own devices, we have this kind of tendency to spiral inward and blow everything out of proportion. So that's really what that kind of chapter is trying to unpick. And also the whole sense of self is something that's fascinating me. If you're a Buddhist, then you'll be fairly aware of the kind of controversy of the whole issue.

什么是自我？我喜欢'它是建构的，因此可以改变'这个观点。我认同佛教将自我视为可改写的人生故事，意味着没有什么是注定的。这对绝望中的人尤为重要——他们常认为现状无法改变，但改变总会发生。

What is the self? For me, I love the idea it's constructed, which means it can change. And so I really embrace the Buddhist approach on that, which is to see ourselves as a story unfolding and a story which can be rewritten and change over time, which means that nothing is inevitable. And I think that's a hopeful message because very often when you speak to people who are in the depths of despair, one of the things they think is that things can never change, but they do change.

是的。我认为这极具力量。极其强大。从定义角度来说，我本该早些问的——能否解释下'他者中心'与'自我中心'的区别？我猜自我中心是指自我认知完全基于个人 ego，而他者中心则基于对整体的感知。

Yes. I think that is enormously powerful. Enormously powerful. Just on a a definitional tip, I should have asked this earlier, but can you define allocentric versus egocentric? I'm guessing that egocentric is that your sense of self really is based in your own ego, and allocentric is based in a sense of all.

没错。想象我们称之为社交关系图——你处于中心，周围是你社交圈里的人，用箭头表示你与他人的连接。过度自我中心者首先会把自己画得硕大无朋，其他人则渺小如蚁，所有箭头都是单向的，整个世界都围绕'我'运转。

Yeah. So if you imagine we call them sociograms. If you imagine yourself at the center and then all the people around you in your sphere as it were, and you represent that as a series of arrows and how you're connected to people, Someone who's overly egocentric will first of all represent themselves as big and large and everyone else is more sort of just diminutive. And it's all going in one direction. It's all about me.

我们称其为自恋者，有时他们非常成功并登上权力高位。你想到谁了？我们就不点名了。这固然不错，但可惜我们不可能都成为自恋者，否则社会将停滞不前。作为社会性动物，我们需要彼此互动。

We call them narcissists and sometimes they're very successful and rise to positions of power. Who are you thinking? We're not going go there. That's all very well, but unfortunately we can't all be narcissists because if that was the case, then nothing would ever get done. You need, as a social animal, need to interact with each other.

他者中心同样可用社交图表示，但此时你能看到自身圈子之外的人际连接。你会发现关系是相互的，需要给予与索取，并意识到自己与他人紧密相连。这就像宇宙中心论与互联论的区别——但凡带过小孩的都明白他们有多自我中心。关键是要从这种自然发展倾向转向考虑自身对他人的影响，并建立互惠关系。

Allocentric, again, you can represent that as a sociogram, but now you can see the connections between the people outside of your circle. You start to see that it's all reciprocal and it all requires give and take, and you see yourself as more interconnected with others around you. So it's really that kind of distinction between yourself at the center of your own universe, and anyone with a kind of young child would know what they're like. They can be incredibly egocentric. Shifting from that kind of natural developmental tendency to one where you're starting to take into consideration the impact you have on others and also reciprocally interact with them.

这就是我说的'他者'含义——关注他人或他者中心。但请注意，我们永远不会完全摆脱自我视角，这正是需要持续与之抗争的原因。

And I think that's what I mean by allo. It means other. Other focus or allocentric. So yeah, that's the kind of general story that I think is but we never lose the egocentric view is what I'm saying. We've got to keep fighting that.

我们必须持续修炼这点。这也是为什么许多积极心理学干预有效——比如冥想。它通过平息躁动的心智起作用。正如你所知，当你专注于呼吸时，就是在将注意力从内心独白转移。

We've got to keep working on that. And that's why I think a lot the positive psychology interventions work. Even something like meditation. You know, that works because it tries to quell the disturbed mind. As you well know, if you're focusing on your breath, you're shifting it away from the internal dialogue.

你要么监控呼吸，要么关注外部事物——本质上是在将注意焦点从内在对话移开。

You're monitoring either your breathing or you're monitoring external sources, so you're shifting the attentional focus away from the inner monologue is what I'm saying.

嗯。容我稍作修正：重点不是压制躁动的念头，而是接纳它，这种接纳自然会导致平静或消散，因为你意识到念头只是流动的组成部分。

Yeah. Just a slight tweak. It's not so much quelling the disturbing mind, it's accepting the disturbing mind, which then leads to a kind of calming or dissipation because you're seeing that it consists of fluxing constituent parts.

正是如此。我前同事丹·瓦格纳常提'讽刺性思维抑制'——越是试图压制某个念头，反弹效应就越强，因为压制行为反而强化了它。所以接纳才是更好的处理方式，而非刻意关注。

That's right. A former colleague of mine, Dan Wagner, used to talk about this ironic thought suppression. So if you try to stop your thoughts, you try to suppress them, then you get a stronger rebound effect because the act of trying to stop yourself having a thought makes it paradoxically stronger. So that's why the acceptance is a better way of dealing with it rather than drawing attention towards them.

我想回到你说的社交图谱——你是这么称呼它的吗？社交...

I wanna go back to your social graph. Is that what you were calling it? Social

社交关系图。社交关系图。所以，丹，如果你要画一张社交关系图，它显然会包括你最亲近的人，你会标注出你们关系的强度，然后是朋友圈中离你稍远一些的人，再就是日常生活中遇到的人。你可以用连线来表示这些关系，用线条的粗细来象征关系的强弱。但这实际上反映的是你感受到的互动对等程度。

Sociogram. Sociogram. So, Dan, if you were to, you know, draw a sociogram, it would include, obviously, your nearest and dearest, and you'd have the strength of your relationship there, and then there'd be people on the sort of further away from you in your circle of friends, and then there'd be the people that you encounter on a daily basis. So you can represent these as interconnections, and you can represent the strength of that as a thickness of the line, if you like. But it's the extent to which you feel that you're reciprocating.

比如你可能觉得与配偶或至亲之间存在非常强烈的对等关系（但愿如此）。而其他关系则可能被视为较弱或较强，更对等或不对等。这本质上是你对人际互动的可视化呈现。心理学家和社会学家用它来描绘我们参与的社交网络图谱。

So you might feel there's a very strong reciprocal relationship with your spouse, hopefully, or your nearest and dearest. But then if it's others outside of that, could see as being weaker or stronger, more reciprocal or not. So it's really how you kind of visualize our interactions. It's used by psychologists and sociologists to represent our map out the networks that we engage in.

我重提这个概念是因为喜欢视觉化类比——社交媒体时代的自我仿佛置身镜厅，所有事物都在反射你自身。当你观察他人时在进行自我比较，发布内容时则在期待他人点赞。这种机制以某种隐蔽的方式强化了自我中心主义。而佛法中的比喻是因陀罗网：你是巨大网络中的节点，每个节点都有一面镜子映照着其他所有节点。

The reason why I went back to it is that I like thinking in visual analogies, and I'll run one by you. The self in the era of social media seems to exist in a hall of mirrors where everything reflects back upon you. If you're looking at other people, you're comparing yourself to them, and if you're posting things, you're waiting for people to like it. It really reinforces and I think a quite insidious way egocentrism. Whereas in the dharma, the analogy they use is Indra's net where you are a node in a vast web and at each node of that web, there is a mirror that reflects all the other nodes.

简而言之，就是把脑袋从自我沉迷中拔出来。你不再困于唯我论，而是置身于更广阔的宇宙中，这种视角令人倍感安宁。

So basically, head is pulled out of your ass. You're not stuck in solipsism. You are embedded in a larger universe, and that view is really soothing.

完全同意。你对社交媒体的评论一针见血。它在很多方面是反社交的——正如我们常听到的'比较式绝望'现象，人们不停寻求自我验证，就像个极度缺爱的孩子。这让我想到人类与生俱来的自我中心倾向。

Yes. I agree with that entirely. I think your comments about social media are spot on. In many ways, it's antisocial because it's this sort of compare and despair phenomenon that we keep hearing about that people are only validating themselves or seeking validation the entire time, which is like a very needy child. So I go back to sort of egocentric bias that a lot of us are born with.

其实人人都有这种倾向。关键在于我们能否放下它，以更互联的视角看待自己——这才是通往幸福的路径。否则你将永远陷于比较，永远感到不足。无论哪个维度，总有人比你更出色。

Well, we are all born with it. It's the extent to which we can relinquish it and let go of that and see ourselves as more interconnected is really the path to becoming a happier person. Because otherwise you're always going to be comparing and you're always going to feel inadequate. And it doesn't matter on whatever dimension you're thinking about. There's always someone who's doing better than you.

若沉迷社交媒体，试图达到那些不切实际的成功标准，你永远无法真正满足。所以这不是消磨时间的好去处。虽然越来越多人开始醒悟，但都市里随处可见低头族——他们正在丧失基本的社交礼仪，比如问路这类需要微妙沟通的场景已逐渐消失。

If you succumb to social media and try to measure up to all these unrealistic measures of success, you're just never going to really do so. So that's why it's really not the best place to spend your time. I think people are kind of wising up to it, but I walk around a metropolis, you go through a city, everyone is staring at their phones. They're taking away what were the basic niceties of exchanging information, like asking for directions or whatever. All those sorts of things which required us to have those little subtle communications have disappeared.

正因如此，我们正变得日益孤立——就像你说的那样。

And that's why I think we're becoming increasingly isolated, as you say.

这很反直觉：人们以为关注自我是获得快乐的最佳途径，但事实只对了一半。

It's counterintuitive because you would think the best way to get happy is to focus on yourself, and yet, that's only partly true.

确实。这里还有代际差异——年轻世代被身份认同驱动，强调自我关怀。当然应该照顾好自己，但不能以牺牲他人为代价，关键要找到平衡点。顺便说明，我并非主张人要变得完全无私。

Yeah. And I think there is a generational thing here. I mean, this whole identity thing which was driving a lot of the younger generations focusing on the self, prioritizing self care. I mean, yeah, sure, you should look after yourself, but not to the exclusion of others around you, and I think it's getting the balance right. What I'm not suggesting, by the way, I should just say, is not that you become selfless.

我认为那同样糟糕。你需要找到平衡点，因为事物间的相互联系才是关键所在。是的，我们会在后面的章节讨论这个，虽然现在还没讲到那里。

I think that's equally bad. You need to get the balance right because it's the interconnection of things, which is the importance. Yes. I think we talk about that in a later chapter, which we're not there yet, but

没错。给第一课做个总结，我有个小纹身写着'为一切众生福祉'，这并非号召灾难性的利他主义，因为众生也包括我自己。所以这确实体现了平衡之道。你提到了'孤立'这个词，正好引出第二课：避免孤立。

Yeah. Just to put a button on this first lesson, I have a little tattoo that says for the benefit of all beings, and that is not a call for calamitous altruism because all beings include me. So it really does speak to a balance. Yeah. You did use the word isolation and that does bring us to lesson number two, which is to avoid isolation.

能详细说说吗？

Can you say more about that?

这源于一个公认的发现：在所有导致早逝的因素中，孤立和孤独似乎是最重要的因素之一。当这个数据首次出现时非常惊人。不仅是生理健康，我们的心理健康也取决于社会联结。这就是为什么我们对被孤立、排斥或拒绝的潜在威胁如此敏感——我们会产生情绪反应。情绪（emotion）和动机（motivation）词源相同。

It stems from this well established finding that of all the things which contribute to our earlier deaths, it turns out that isolation and loneliness seems to play one of the most important factors, which I think was really striking when this data started to emerge. It's not just our physical, but it's our mental health, depends on our social connections. And that's why we're so sensitive to any potential threat of being isolated or ostracized or rejected. That's why we feel it emotionally. Emotions have the same word as motivation.

它们源自拉丁语'移动'的意思。情绪驱使我们行动，而避免被孤立正是进化赋予我们的重要驱动力——当然并非对所有人都如此。

They come from the Latin meaning to move. So emotions drive us to do things. They move us to do things. And one of the things we're driven to do is avoid being isolated because it's so critically important to us in our evolution. Not all people, by the way.

每次我说这个总有人反驳：'我就喜欢独处'。当然，有益的独处时刻确实存在。但总体上，我们的大部分行为都指向社会互动。

I mean, I would say whenever I've said this, people say, well, I kind of like my isolation. So I would say, of course, there are moments of solitude which can be very beneficial. But in general, most of our behavior is driven towards our social interactions.

确实。内向与外向是个光谱，偏内向者不需要太多社交或密友，但仍需要一些。关键在于自主性：你是健康地选择独处，还是因愤怒/恐惧而自我封闭？或是被所属群体排斥？这种自主性差异至关重要。

Yeah. Look, there's a spectrum introversion, extroversion spectrum, and if you're further along the introversion spectrum you don't need as many social interactions or close friends, but you do need some. And also there's a question of agency, are you isolated because you've chosen in a healthy way to get some alone time or are you isolating because you've chosen in an unhealthy anger or fear based way or because you've been shunned or excommunicated by your own personal tribe? That agency factors matters a lot.

是的。曼德拉在《漫漫自由路》中描述罗本岛单独监禁的经历，称那比肉体折磨更可怕。这正说明了社会需求对人类的重要性。

Yeah. Nelson Mandela wrote about it in his autobiography, The Long Walk to Freedom. He talked about his time on Robben Island when he was put into solitary confinement, and he said it was the worst. People prefer to be physically tortured rather than isolated. So that just speaks to the power of that is for people who require that.

书中提到社交隔离对疼痛耐受和压力反应的影响，能展开说说吗？

You have some data in the book about the impact of social isolation on pain tolerance and reaction to stress. Can you say a little bit more about that?

这不是我的直接研究。多位学者通过流行病学研究发现：孤独导致的死亡风险相当于每天吸15支烟——这个结论很有名。

Yeah. So this is not my work directly. I'm referring to a series of actually, there's a bunch of researchers doing this. There's work which is epidemiology work looking at morbidity risks. Famously, loneliness has a morbidity risk which is equivalent to smoking 15 cigarettes a day, I think is the famous bite line.

但后来有更多实验研究关注诱发疼痛。例如，给人们施加电击时，如果有人陪伴，他们能忍受更高程度的疼痛。这些都说明了身边有支持带来的益处。我知道你采访过罗伯特·沃尔丁格。哈佛研究中有证据再次表明，社会孤立是导致早逝的重要诱因。

But then there's more experimental studies looking at inducing pain. So for example, you can give people electric shocks and people tolerate much higher levels of pain if they're with somebody, with a partner. All of these sort of speak to the beneficial effects of having the support around you. I know you were speaking to Robert Waldinger. I think there's evidence from the Harvard study showing again that social isolation is a really major contributing factor to earlier death.

所以我认为这些都在指向同一个结论：良好稳固的社会关系确实有益。当然，支持也提供许多实际帮助，比如关注你的健康，有人提醒你‘或许不该这么做’。总之益处多多。

So I think these are all pointing along the same lines that there is a real benefit to having good, strong social relationships. And now, of course, support provides a lot of practical things as well. Just looking after your health, having someone tell you, know, maybe you shouldn't be doing this, maybe you shouldn't be doing that. So I think there's lots of benefits.

是的。沃尔丁格的研究对我影响深远。他是哈佛成人发展研究现任负责人，这是科学史上历时最长的研究之一，追踪波士顿地区几代家庭，试图找出影响长寿健康的变量——而最重要的变量就是人际关系质量。我常告诫人们：我们身处一个追求优化的时代。

Yeah. Walden Gerwer's work has been very influential in mine. For those who don't know him, he's the latest director of the Harvard Study for Adult Development. It's one of the longest running studies in the history of science and following many generations of families in the Boston area trying to get a sense of what are the variables that lead to a long and healthy life, and the most important variable is the quality of your relationships. And I often, you know, wag my finger at people and say, look, we're in an era of optimization.

人人都在计步、监测睡眠、追求生酮状态，但最该优化的其实是人际关系——社交媒体上却鲜少讨论。那么请问：如果你的书第二课是避免孤立，我们具体该怎么做？

Everybody's tracking their steps, tracking their sleep, trying to achieve ketosis, whatever it is, but this is the thing to optimize, and very few people are talking about this on social media. So let me put it to you. If lesson number two in your book is to avoid isolation, what are the practical steps we can do to get there?

我认为应以不依赖技术的方式主动联系。电话固然好，但关键是重拾有意义的联结，而非敷衍的短信。人们通常因担心尴尬或打扰他人却步，但芝加哥大学尼克·埃普利的研究表明，人们其实享受这种自发联系。书中还提到加入合唱团、拯救正在消失的‘第三空间’——过去人们能偶遇他人的场所。

Well, I think reaching out to people in a way that doesn't necessarily involve technology. I mean, a phone, of course, is a good way to connect, but basically reconnect with people in a way which is meaningful rather than just sending a text or something which is cursory. People generally don't do that because they're kind of fearful that maybe it'll be awkward, maybe they don't want to impose, but I think I'll talk about this in a later chapter, but it turns out, and this is Nick Epley's work from Chicago, that actually people really enjoy the spontaneous connections. Other things I've talked about in the book are all about joining a choir, fighting the third place, which is disappearing. It used to be the sort of opportunities just to spontaneously meet other people.

比如养狗后去公园遛狗，很快会与其他狗主人攀谈。当有共同兴趣时，人际互动自然产生。关键是要抓住每个建立社交联结的机会：对咖啡师或服务人员说句赞美——他们日常枯燥乏味，少有人交谈。你的主动可能比想象中更让他们欣喜。

So, you know, get a dog, go for a walk with the park of the dog, and you soon start talking to other dog owners. There's this phenomenon that, you know, when you've got a shared interest, then you can start, interacting with other humans. So I think it's just recognizing every opportunity you can to forge those social connections and take it and speaking. Exchange a compliment with a barista or whoever is serving. You know, very often their days are very mundane and people are not talking to them, but make the effort just to reach out to others because they will probably enjoy it more than you imagine.

上过节目的芭芭拉·弗雷德里克森研究过‘微互动’——与咖啡师、邮差、路人交谈，这是日常生活中被低估的快乐源泉。但我想回到你说的‘第三空间’，能否详细解释？

Barbara Fredrickson, who's been on this show, has done a lot of good work around what are called micro interactions, talking to the barista, the mailman, people you're passing in the hallway on the street, and that's like an undertapped, overlooked source of happiness in your daily life. But just wanna go back to something you said about third places. What can you define that for people?

第三空间既非职场也非家庭，曾是酒吧、俱乐部等社交场所，人们可以抛开配偶或同事身份自由交谈。这种文化正在快速消失，就像保龄球馆文化——

Well, the third places were basically not work and not home, and it used to be the bars or the clubs or all those social gatherings where people could meet that didn't necessarily have to be their spouse or their work colleagues. It was other people where they could talk about things that they wouldn't necessarily talk about with their spouse or with their work colleagues. I think that is rapidly disappearing. The bowling alley culture, I can't remember who it's

罗伯特·帕特南的《独自打保龄》。

a Robert Putnam, bowling alone.

没错，这个术语是他提出的。在沉浸虚拟世界的时代，这类空间正加速消亡。

That's right. Yeah. I think he coined that term. It's this what's fast disappearing in a world of technology where you can immerse yourself entirely in virtual worlds. And so a lot of the third spaces are disappearing.

我是说，这些场所正在英国消失。我们过去有青少年活动中心和年轻人聚集的地方，但现在这些似乎正在迅速消失。所以没错，正是这些地方促进了与那些不一定是直系亲属或同事的人们的交流。

I mean, they're disappearing in The UK. We used to have youth holes and places where the kids were hanging out and doing things, but now that seems to be rapidly evaporating. So yeah, it's those places which facilitate communications with people who aren't necessarily your immediate family or your work colleagues.

是的。现任或前任卫生局局长维韦克·穆尔西的建议是去做志愿者。如果附近没有保龄球联盟，就去施粥厨房或宠物领养机构之类的地方帮忙。这是结识他人的好方法，同时也很有意义。

Yeah. The surgeon general or now former surgeon general Vivek Murthy, his recommendation here is volunteer. You know, if there's no bowling league near you, just volunteer at a soup kitchen or a pet adoption agency or whatever. It is a great way to meet other people and also it's ennobling.

没错。我妻子现在就在做这个。她曾经是医生，几年前退休了。过去一年来，她一直在施粥厨房做志愿者。这是她最享受的经历之一，而且她本来就喜欢与人交谈，所以这真是个建立联系的好机会。

Yeah. My wife does that now. She she was a physician, and she retired several years back. For the past year now, she's been volunteering with a soup kitchen. It's one of her most enjoyable experiences, and she just loves to talk to people anyway, so it's a real opportunity to kinda connect.

所以，是的，这出人意料地有收获。

So, yeah, it's surprisingly rewarding.

接下来，布鲁斯·胡德将谈论如何控制注意力并拒绝消极比较、乐观主义面临的挑战及如何克服、通过冥想找到心流状态，以及更多内容。

Coming up, Bruce Hood talks about how to control your attention and reject negative comparisons, the challenge of optimism and how to overcome that challenge, finding a flow state through meditation, and much more.

想象一下你在飞机上，突然听到这个。

Imagine that you're on an airplane, and all of a sudden you hear this.

乘客们请注意，飞行员突发紧急状况，我们需要有人——任何人都行——来降落这架飞机。

Attention passengers, the pilot is having an emergency, and we need someone, anyone to land this plane.

你觉得你能做到吗？事实证明，近50%的男性认为在空管协助下他们可以成功降落飞机。

Think you could do it? It turns out that nearly 50% of men think that they could land the plane with the help of air traffic control.

他们会说，好吧，拉这个，转这个。

And they're saying, like, okay. Pull this. Turn this.

拉那个，转这个。

Pull that. Turn this.

这这只不过是我能做到的

It's it's just I can do it my

闭着眼睛都能行。我是曼尼。

eyes closed. I'm Manny.

我是诺亚。这位是德文。

I'm Noah. This is Devin.

在我们的新节目《无稽之谈》中，我们将深入探讨这类问题。跟随我们一起对话过度自信领域的顶尖专家。

And on our new show, no such thing, we get to the bottom of questions like these. Join us as we talk to the leading expert on overconfidence.

缺乏专业知识的人，往往也缺乏意识到自己缺乏专业知识的能力。

Those who lack expertise lack the expertise they need to recognize that they lack expertise.

然后当我们实际尝试整个流程时。等等。什么？哦，那是跑道。我正在看这个东西。

And then as we try the whole thing out for real. Wait. What? Oh, that's the runway. I'm looking at this thing.

看到了吗？在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或任何你获取播客的地方收听《无稽之谈》。

See? Listen to no such thing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

你是否在寻找让日常生活更快乐、更健康、更高效、更有创意的方法？我是格雷琴·鲁宾，《幸福计划》的畅销书作者，在《与格雷琴·鲁宾共赴幸福》播客中为你带来新见解和实用解决方案。我的联合主持兼幸福实验对象是我的妹妹伊丽莎白·克拉夫特。

Are you looking for ways to make your everyday life happier, healthier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one bestselling author of the happiness project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. My cohost and happiness guinea pig is my sister, Elizabeth Kraft.

那就是我，伊丽莎白·克拉夫特，好莱坞的电视编剧兼制片人。加入我们，一起探索培养幸福和好习惯的妙招。

That's me, Elizabeth Kraft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore ideas and hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits.

快来收听Lemonada Media出品的《与格雷琴·鲁宾共赴幸福》。

Check out happier with Gretchen Rubin from Lemonada Media.

第三课是拒绝消极比较。

Lesson number three is reject negative comparisons.

没错。这是因为我们的大脑进化过程中特别关注负面信息，其逻辑在于从适应性进化角度看，留意那些可能让你从基因库中消失的事物更为有利。所以你更关注坏消息或威胁，而非安于现状认为一切顺利。因为只需一件真正的坏事就能让你出局。这与一系列截然不同的研究结果相符，表明我们似乎更聚焦于负面信息。

Yeah. Well, this is because we have a brain which has really evolved to pay special attention to negative information, and the argument is along the lines that it's much better from an adaptive evolutionary point of view to sort of attend to things which may potentially eliminate you from the gene pool. So that's why you pay more attention to bad news or threats than sitting on your laurels and just thinking life is going fine. Because it only takes one really bad thing to take you out of the equation. So this is a line of work which fits with a series of really quite different studies showing that we seem to focus more on negative information.

无论是听故事还是读报，有个经典研究让受试者以为在研究阅读行为，实则追踪其眼球运动，发现人们总是聚焦所有负面信息。我们大脑存在这种关注负面信息的倾向——视觉上更容易察觉皱眉而非微笑，尖叫比欢笑更引人注意。从最基础的感官层面，我们就被设定为关注负面信息。而在更高阶的认知层面，我们倾向于反复纠结出错的事而非顺利的事。作为作家，我承认自己会忍不住看差评，尽管其他人都认为那是本好书。

So if you're listening to stories or you're reading the paper, there's one great study where they got people to they thought they were actually doing a study of reading papers, but they were looking at the eye movements and they were noticing that people were focusing on all the negative information. So there is this sort of bias in our brains to really pay attention to that. Visually, we spot people frowning more than we spot smiling and screams are more attentive than So everything is wired from a very sensory basic level to pay attention to negative information. And then of course, at a more cognitive thought process level, we tend to ruminate and fixate on things when they've gone wrong more than when they're going right. And as a writer, I assure you, I can't stop myself looking at that negative review despite the fact that everyone thinks it's a great book apart from that one person.

那个差评会不断啃噬我的心。我必须运用第三人称抽离法：布鲁斯，快停下，这太蠢了。但这正是我们特别关注负面信息的部分原因。

That will just niggle and eat away at me. And I've got to really use that third person distancing. Bruce, stop yourself. That's just silly. But yeah, that's part of the reason we seem to be especially attentive.

此外，负面信息会形成更强烈的印象。一旦听到某人负面评价，要扭转印象非常困难。保持客观平衡相当具有挑战性。

Also, we form impressions are stronger when we hear negative information, and it's really difficult to overcome something when we've heard something bad about somebody. So being balanced is quite a challenge.

那我们能怎么做？

So what can we do about this?

保持觉察很有帮助，如前所述。另外刻意远离社交媒体——我认为对敏感人群尤为有效。多关注生活中的积极面，这是我建议的。其实早该提到：书写记录是极其有效的练习。我们推荐的做法是写下进展顺利的事情。

Well, being mindful of it is good, as I've said, and also trying to deliberately avoid well, see off social media, I I think, is also, I think, a recipe for or is at least a solution to some extent, especially if you are sensitive to criticism. Just being mindful of what's going right in your life and focus on that. I think that's what I would suggest. And I really should probably mention this earlier, but the act of writing things down, I think is an incredibly powerful exercise. And one of the things we recommend is actually writing down things which have gone well for you.

这就是'三件好事'记录法。可能源自索尼娅·柳博米尔斯基或马丁·塞利格曼的研究成果。主动在日记中记录的行为本身就有价值。

So this is the writing of the three good things. Now, I don't know. It's probably Sonya Lubomirski or one of these other guys who have done this as well. But the three good things, Marty Siegmund will have undoubtedly done work on this. But it's the proactive behavior of writing things down in a journal.

其强大功效在于：首先让你放下手机，其次形成可追溯的记录。日记本是种重要工具——一个月后回看时，这些具象化的证据能让你发现生活实际比想象中好得多。我既推荐记录三件好事，也建议用此方法处理不如意之事。

The reason that's very powerful is first of all, it gets you off your phone. And secondly, it allows you to keep a record. And I think that's a very important device. Keeping a diary, keeping a journal is a very tangible bit of evidence or data to see and review when you in a month's time, you can review your life and you can see how things are actually going a lot better than you often imagine. So I do it for recommending writing down three good things, but also for processing when things are not going right for you.

外部日记能将思绪从大脑中释放，转化为可审视的客观证据。当你试图回忆过往时，它提供了常被遗忘的真实语境。

I think keeping that external journal takes it out of your mental space as it were, and it makes it a kind of piece of evidence that you can review. And it gives you a real context that you often lose if you're just trying to remember how things were all the time.

我喜欢这一点。第四课，变得更加乐观。

I love that. Lesson four, become more optimistic.

嗯，这在当下是个挑战，不是吗？尤其是考虑到我们往往倾向于关注负面信息。乐观可以像幸福感一样被部分调整。我认为乐观或悲观是有倾向性的。但我也要指出，你可能在生活的某一方面乐观，而在另一方面悲观。

Well, that is a challenge these days, isn't it? Especially given the fact that we tend to focus on negative information. Optimism can be partially tweaked like happiness. I think there are dispositions to being optimistic or pessimistic. But I would also point out that you can be optimistic in one facet of your life and pessimistic in another.

所以这并不是说你天生就是非此即彼的乐观或悲观者。话虽如此，我认为有方法可以让你开始变得更平衡，因为回到第三课关于关注负面的事情，如果你开始尝试有意识地以更积极的方式重新评估你的生活，随着时间的推移——这是马丁·塞利格曼的研究——你会变得更灵活地处理负面信息，而不是直接想到最坏的情况。如果你花时间以更平衡的方式处理它，或者确实在每朵乌云中寻找一线希望，那么随着时间的推移，这最终会成为你默认的思维方式，而不是总是想到最坏的情况。所以证据表明这实际上会改变。再次，我会推荐写日记，如果你度过了糟糕的一天或发生了不好的事情，把情况写下来。

So it's not as if it's kind of just generically you're one or the other glass half full or half empty. That said, I think there are ways in which you can start to be more balanced because going back to lesson three about the focusing on the negative, if you start to try to deliberately reappraise your life in a more positive way, over time, and this is Marty Seligman's work, over time this will tend you to be a lot more flexible in the way you're processing negative information rather than going to the worst case scenario. If you actually spend the time processing it in a way which is more balanced, or indeed looking for the silver lining on every cloud, then over time, you will eventually sort of that will become the default way of thinking, rather than always going to the worst case scenario. So the evidence suggests that that actually will change. And again, I would go back to recommending journaling, writing a situation down if you're having a terrible day or something's gone really wrong.

与其对后果悲观，不如尝试以一种寻找最佳可能结果的方式回顾它。这将是一种真正将指针从悲观转向更乐观观点的方法。

Rather than being pessimistic about the consequences of that, try and review it in a way which looks for the best possible outcome. That will be a way of actually sort of shifting the needle away from pessimism to a more optimistic view.

举个例子，如果你刚刚被裁员，而你很难唤起任何乐观情绪，写下来并刻意尝试考虑更乐观的观点可以推动你朝那个方向发展。

So if you've just been laid off, just to take an example, and you're having trouble summoning any optimism, writing about it while deliberately trying to consider a more optimistic view can nudge you in that direction.

是的。在塞利格曼的技术中，这叫做ABCDE。ABC和DE两部分。ABC代表逆境（Adversity）、信念（Belief）、后果（Consequences）。在第一阶段，你写下发生了什么。

Yeah. So in the Seely Moon technique, it's called a b c d e. There are two parts to a b c and then d and e. A b c stands for adversity, belief, consequences. So in that first phase, you write down what happened.

比如你刚刚被裁员。你认为这反映了什么，你可能会想，哦，这意味着我不擅长我的工作。你认为后果是什么？嗯，我会没有钱，可能会失去房子。所以你写下一切，并表达出每一个最坏的情况。

So you've just been laid off at work. What you believe that reflects, you might think, oh, that means I'm not good at my job. And what do you think the consequences? Well, I'm not going have any money and I might lose my house. And so you write down everything and you articulate every worst case scenario.

你这样做的原因是因为你在桌面上摊开所有可能的场景。在穷尽这些之后，你转换思路，进入D和E，即争议（Dispute）或辩护（Defend）和激励（Energize）。在这个阶段，你应该做的是看看这些并说，听着，你不是唯一被裁员的人。这不是你一个人的问题。你以前也遇到过这种情况。

And the reason you do that is because you're laying out on the table, if you like, every scenario possible. Having exhausted that, all right, you then switch gear and go to the dispute and D and E is dispute or defend and energize. And so what you're supposed to do in this phase is you're supposed to look at this and say, look, okay, look, you're not the only one who was laid off. It's not you alone. You've had been in the situation before.

这可能是一个重新学习技能的机会。可能是寻找新机会的契机。换句话说，你跳出自己，像一个律师或辩护律师一样说，好吧，你说这个，但实际上，另一种看法是X、Y和Z。通过大量的创造力和想象力，你甚至可以开始在最坏的情况下找到一些积极的闪光点。

This might be an opportunity to reskill. It might be an opportunity to look up. So in other words, you step out of yourself. You become like an attorney or a defense lawyer and say, okay, you say this, but actually, another way of looking at it is X, Y, and Z. And with a lot of creativity and imagination, you can start to find some glimmers of positive outcome, even in the worst case scenarios.

然后，完成这些后，这会激励你，让你意识到十五分钟前让你非常困扰和担忧的事情，现在你应该感觉好一些了。这表明你可以在十五分钟内改变，只需重新审视情况并更积极地思考。这是一种尝试以更适应性的方式处理信息，而不是直接想到最坏情况的方法。

And then having done that, this leads you to be energized, to realize that something that was really obsessing you and compelling you fifteen minutes ago that you were so concerned about, you should feel a bit better about. So it shows that you can change in the space of fifteen minutes just by reviewing the situation and thinking about it more positively. It's a case of trying to process information in a much more adaptive way rather than just resorting to the worst case.

什么是WOOP技术？

What is the WOOP technique?

WOOP是愿望（Wish）、结果（Outcome）、障碍（Obstacle）、计划（Plan）的缩写。这是加布里埃尔·奥廷根的研究成果。我们大多数人都希望过上更好的生活，培养更好的习惯，把事情做得更好，但往往未能坚持到底。部分原因在于，仅仅期望事情变好是不够的。

WHOOPING. It stands for wish outcomes, obstacles, processes. It's Gabrielle Autogen's work, her research. I mean, most of us would like to lead better lives, we'd like to develop better habits, we'd like to do things better, but very often we don't actually follow through with it. And part of the reason is because just wishing for something to be better isn't good enough.

你必须制定计划，这正是这项技术的核心——心理对比法。如果你想改变生活方式，比如养成更健康的习惯、改善饮食、戒烟戒酒等，首先需要有一个激励你的愿望，想象最佳情景：'如果我坚持锻炼，就会更健康'。但仅此还不够。

You actually have to make a plan and that's what this technique's all about. It's called mental contrasting. And so what you do is if you want to change your lifestyle, if you want to develop a healthier lifestyle or eat more healthily or give up smoking or drinking, whatever, You have to have that wish at the beginning to motivate you so that you imagine the best case scenario saying, okay, I'm going to be a healthier person if I do exercise. Okay. Having done that, that's not enough.

接着你需要考虑可能遇到的障碍。有了愿望和期待的结果后，要思考哪些阻碍会出现。比如'我经常吃麦当劳，因为很方便'。这时就要制定应急预案：'如果想吃快餐，就先把麦当劳的会员卡扔掉'（虽然我不确定他们有没有会员卡）。

You then have to consider what are going to be the obstacles. So you got your wish, what you want, what is the outcome you're hoping for, but then what are the obstacles that get in the way of that? So it might be, well, I kind of eat at McDonald's all the time and it's really convenient and that sort of thing. Well, then you have to sort of make a contingency plan and say, well, if that comes to mind, then what you do is you get rid of your loyalty card from McDonald's. I'm not sure if they have one, by the way.

你要避开诱发不良行为的环境，制定克服或绕过障碍的应急计划。这结合了推动目标的积极愿望能量，以及实现目标所需的具体行动。这就是WOOP的含义：愿望、结果、障碍和计划。

But you avoid the circumstances which lead to that sort of behavior. So you make a contingency plan to overcome or bypass the obstacles that get in your way. So that is a combination of kind of wishful thinking, positive energy to drive you towards a goal, but then, actually, what do you need to do in order to achieve it? So that's what's meant by WOOP. Wish, outcome, obstacles, and plan.

关于乐观主义还有最后一个问题。我们是否有可能做得太过头？

Just one last question on optimism. Is it possible that we can take it too far?

是的。那样就会变得鲁莽。乐观主义和悲观主义在三个维度上有所不同。明白吗？一是你认为情况永远不会改变的程度，过度概括的倾向，以及内化的倾向。

Yeah. That's when you become reckless. So there are three dimensions by which optimism and pessimism differ. Okay? So one is the extent to which you think situations are never going to change, the tendency to overgeneralize and the tendency to internalize.

举个例子，如果你考试不及格，你可能会说，我考试不及格。我永远都过不了。这就是你认为事情永远不会改变的地方。然后如果你过度概括这一点，你会说，我考试不及格。我做什么都不行。

So for example, if you fail an exam, you might sort of say, I failed an exam. I'm never going to be able to pass. So that's where you think things can ever change. And then if you overgeneralize that, you say, I failed an exam. I'm bad at everything I do.

这就是你进行概括和推断的地方。你可能会内化这一点并说，我考试不及格。这是我的错。乐观主义者会说，好吧，我这次考试不及格，但下次我会做得更好。或者他们可能会说，哦，我这次考试不及格，但我在其他方面很擅长。

That's where you generalize, extrapolate. And you might internalize that and say, I failed an exam. It's my fault. An optimist would say, Okay, I failed one exam, but I'll get better next time. Or they then might say, Oh, I failed one exam, but I'm good at other things.

或者他们可能会外化并说，我考试不及格，但那不是我。是那个自以为讲课很棒的教授。不是我的错。是他的错。所以你可以看到你是如何偏离的，以及你是如何对情况做出归因的。

Or they might sort of externalize and say, I failed an exam, but it wasn't me. It's that professor who thinks he's a great lecturer. It wasn't my fault. Was his fault. So you can see how you can deviate and how you make attributions to the situation.

但如果你从不承担责任，如果你从未真正意识到考试可能非常重要，也许你确实需要关注、需要改变，那么你将永远无法真正适应或通过考试。因此，若不考虑现实，你可能会变得鲁莽。过度乐观可能演变为不切实际的期望和轻率行为。

But if you never take responsibility, if you never actually appreciate that maybe the exam's really quite important, and maybe you do need to pay attention, you do need to change, then you're never going to actually adapt or pass your exams. So you can become reckless if you don't actually take into consideration reality. So being overly optimistic can turn into unrealistic expectations and reckless behavior.

好的。那么第五课是控制你的注意力。请详细说说。

Okay. So lesson number five is to control your attention. Please say more.

对我而言，我认为这是我变得极其感兴趣的最引人注目的研究领域之一——我们实际上大部分时间并未意识到自身处境。我们的思维经常处于显著游离状态。这来自我的前同事丹·吉尔伯特。基林斯沃思和吉尔伯特通过一款应用随机联系人们并询问：你现在在想什么？

To me, and I think this has been one of the most remarkable areas of research that I've become incredibly interested in, and this is the reality that we spend a lot of the time not actually being aware of our circumstances. Our minds are wandering remarkably a lot of the time. This comes from a former colleague of mine, Dan Gilbert. Killingsworth and Gilbert did this study where they just randomly contacted people at different points of the day using an app. So what are you thinking about?

你在做什么？现在快乐吗？他们发现人们有50%的时间实际上处于心不在焉状态——他们并未思考正在做的事，思绪早已飘离。

What are doing? Are you happy now? And what they discovered is that people were mind wandering actually 50% of the time effectively. So they weren't thinking about what they were doing. Their minds were off.

这一发现的惊人之处在于，即使人们只是思考中性内容，他们仍相对不快乐。这有些出人意料。我们可能以为思维漫游是愉快的白日梦，但实际上很多时候我们是在反复纠结——担忧未解决的矛盾或即将面临的问题。

And what was remarkable about this finding was that a lot of the time, even though they were just thinking neutral thoughts, they were relatively unhappy. And so that was kind of surprising. So when we're mind wandering, you might think it's pleasant daydreaming. But actually, a lot of the time, we're kind of ruminating over things. You know, we're worrying about unresolved conflicts or thinking about problems up and coming.

我们最近对学生进行的研究显示，思维游离时间占比达60%。与基林斯沃思的研究一致，当学生注意力分散时，他们的快乐程度普遍低于专注任务时。人类的默认状态似乎是持续的神游，保持专注其实非常困难。

We just recently ran a study of our students, and we found mind wandering sixty percent of the time. So it's happening a lot. And actually, just like Killingsworth and Gilbert, we found that when their minds were wandering, they were generally relatively unhappy compared to when they were fixated and focused on a task. So our default appears to be drifting all the time. Paying attention is really tough.

我认为这正是社交媒体如此有害且强大的原因——它能劫持我们的注意力。你会被卷入这种信息过载的漩涡，而我们往往对自身行为缺乏觉察。这很遗憾，因为当你真正集中注意力，或是任务本身极具吸引力时，你就会进入心流状态——那种时间飞逝、全神投入的愉悦体验。所以，请控制你的注意力，否则它将被外界俘获。

And I think that's one of the reasons that social media is so pernicious and so powerful because it captures our attention. And that's why you can be sucked into this sort of vortex of of information overload. And we tend not to be very mindful of the things that we're doing, and that's unfortunate because when you do draw your attention or you do focus your attention on a task or a task is so engrossing that it really requires you to pay attention, then you get those moments of flow, which is this very positive state where time appears to elapse and you just you feel very content as you're kinda drawing your attention and your resources onto the task. So, yeah, control your attention because otherwise, it's gonna be captured.

我们在节目中无数次讨论过心流状态，但我总觉得它令人抓狂地难以捉摸——我不确定自己多久能进入一次心流，也不知道如何更频繁地达到这种状态。

We've talked about flow a million times on this show, and I always find it a little bit maddeningly elusive because I don't know how often I get into flow personally or what I could do to make that happen more frequently.

心流最可能出现在与个人技能匹配的情境中。定义上来说，当你擅长某事且需要充分施展专长时，就会产生沉浸感。对我而言是写作——我能连续写作数小时而忘记时间。运动员面对足够挑战时也会进入心流。

It's probably most likely in those circumstances or activities which match your skill set. So this is the kind of definition that if if there's something that you're pretty good at doing and you're in a situation where you have to really deploy that expertise, that will then become absorbing. So for me, it's writing. I'm a relatively good writer and I can write for hours and hours and I forget sometimes to, you know, I've wasted or not wasted, spent so much time writing. Sports athletes can find moments of flow when the challenge is sufficiently good that that gets them into it.

我认为许多爱好都能诱发心流感。关键在于激活胜任力，使个人能力与情境需求相匹配。若挑战令人不堪重负会引发焦虑，过于简单则导致无聊。真正的平衡在于找到能充分激发你应对能力的场景。

Lots of hobbies, I would argue, could be inducing that sense of flow. It's really tapping into competence and matching the your ability with the circumstances or the requirements of the situation. If you are overwhelmed by a challenge, then it could be anxiety inducing. If it's not challenging, then it's boring. The equation is really to find those situations which really stimulate your ability to address them.

是啊。我在回想自己的生活，比如我经常写作，但很讨厌这个过程。我也经常锻炼，虽然不讨厌锻炼，但很少进入心流状态。除非可能是和一大群人一起运动，我们都在同步前进的时候。

Yeah. I'm just trying to think of my own life, like, I write a lot, but I hate it. I exercise a lot. I don't hate it, but it's rarely in flow, I think. Except for maybe when I'm exercising with a big group of people and we're all kind of moving through.

对。或许偶尔会有那样的瞬间，但我意识到自己真正进入心流的场合是演讲。我不喜欢开场那段需要背诵5分钟、10分钟、15分钟、20分钟甚至30分钟讲稿的部分，但问答环节几乎总能让我进入心流状态。

Yeah. Maybe there are a few moments there, but the one place where I realized maybe I'm in flow is I like I give a lot of speeches and I don't like the beginning part of it where I have to do five, ten, fifteen, twenty, sometimes thirty minutes of a rehearsed speech, But the q and a is almost always, I think, a flow state for me.

没错。我懂你说的感觉。我也非常喜欢讲课。当课程进展顺利时，时间仿佛消失了，一切都变得非常流畅，这就是即兴思考的状态。

Yeah. I know what you're talking about. I I love lecturing as well. And when it's going really well, time just disappears, evaporates. It seems very fluid, and that is that you're thinking on your feet.

这种状态下，你的大脑运作方式与平常截然不同。所以我认为这就是心流。

You literally are having to use your brain in a way that you wouldn't normally be doing. So I think I would call that flow.

是的。我朋友乔治·芒福德专门为顶尖运动员教授冥想，他曾与迈克尔·乔丹合作，至今仍在指导科比等职业运动员。他常把冥想描述为进入心流状态的准备训练。你觉得这个说法有道理吗？

Yeah. My friend George Mumford, who teaches meditation to elite athletes, he worked with Michael Jordan, Kobe to this day is working with professional athletes. He often describes meditation as a way to get you flow ready. Yeah. Would you agree with that?

确实如此。我之前未提及但应该说明的是，我们现在知道当你不专注于某项任务时，大脑会进入一种称为默认模式网络的状态。顺便一提，这个发现纯属偶然。这是大脑中的一个网络系统。最初进行功能性磁共振成像（fMRI）研究测量脑部血流时，研究人员意外发现了它。

I would indeed. And one of the things I didn't mention earlier, I should address this, is that we now know that when you're not focused on a task, there's a state of the mind called the default mode network, kicks into action. This is discovered by chance, by the way. It was a network in the brain. They discovered when they started the first imaging studies where you measure blood flow in the brain using magnetic resonance imaging, fMRI.

研究人员让受试者静卧在扫描仪中不要移动，因为需要先获取基准数据。他们原以为大脑会进入休眠或稳定状态。但矛盾的是，实际发现的是大脑前后区域作为网络整体出现了激活增强。因此称之为默认模式网络——这就是你无所事事时的默认状态。

And they asked the various participants, just lie in the scanner and don't move because we need to get some baseline measures before we get you to do anything. And so they assumed that basically the brain would shut down or go into a steady state. Paradoxically, what they found was actually an increase of activation in the front of the back of the brain as a network. And that's why they call it default mode network. That's the default when you're not actually doing something.

这个发现的重要性在于：当思维漫游时，你的默认模式网络其实处于活跃状态。而且该网络还与相对不快乐的状态相关。结合我钟爱的机制解释来说：当你未投入任务或心流状态，任由思绪飘荡时，默认模式网络就会启动——我认为这本质上就是反刍思维。顺便说，布鲁尔的研究表明，冥想者接受扫描时，其默认模式网络要么未被激活，要么活跃度显著降低。

Now, the reason that's relevant is that when your mind is wandering, your default mode network is actually active. And also the default mode network is related to being relatively unhappy. And I think the linking explanation and going back to what I said that I love explanations and mechanism, is that when you're not engaged in a task or in flow, and you just simply, your mind's wandering, your default mode network is kicking in. And that is sort of, I think, rumination. And by the way, there are studies by Brewer showing that if you meditate meditators, you put them in a scanner, they don't have activation of the default mode network, or at least it's it's not as much.

因此我认为冥想的本质就是关闭我们内心的自我叙述或自我批判。这就是我理解的解释机制。

So I think what's going on in the meditation is it's turning off that internal story that we're telling ourselves or that criticism that we're telling ourselves. So that's how I see it as a kind of it's a mechanism of explanation here.

是的。贾德森·布罗医生是节目常客也是我的朋友，他的研究非常有趣。据我理解，未经训练的大脑其默认模式网络可能相当令人不适——你会不断与他人比较、反复咀嚼过去错误、忧虑未来可能发生的坏事。确实如此。

Yeah. Doctor Judson Bro is a friend and frequent flyer on the show, and it it's really interesting. My understanding of his work is that the untrained mind has a default mode network that can be quite unpleasant. You're comparing yourself to other people, ruminating about your past mistakes, worrying about things that might happen in the future. Yep.

反之，如果你已经掌握了一些冥想技巧，你就有了一个新的默认模式，即在当下保持清醒和觉知。

Whereas, if you've got some meditation under your belt, you have a new default mode, which is being awake and aware in the present moment.

没错。正是如此。这个网络还与自我在人际关系中的表征相关联。因此，它又回到了这种关于你如何衡量自己以及你在比较中处于何种境地的反复思考。

Yeah. Exactly. So the network is also associated representation of self in relation to others. So that ties it back into this kind of rumination about how you're measuring up and what's going on in your comparisons.

是的。接下来，布鲁斯将谈到自然的作用、如何加强你的社交联系、所谓的真正纯粹的幸福从何而来，以及更多内容。

Yeah. Coming up, Bruce talks about the role of nature, how to enhance your social connections, where, quote, unquote, true authentic happiness comes from, and much more.

想象一下你在飞机上，突然听到这个声音。

Imagine that you're on an airplane, and all of a sudden, you hear this.

乘客们请注意，飞行员遇到了紧急情况，我们需要有人，任何人都行，来降落这架飞机。

Attention passengers, the pilot is having an emergency, and we need someone, anyone to land this plane.

你觉得你能做到吗？事实证明，近50%的男性认为在空管人员的帮助下他们能够降落飞机。

Think you could do it? It turns out that nearly 50% of men think that they could land the plane with the help of air traffic control.

他们就像在说，好的。拉这个。转这个。

And they're saying like, okay. Pull this. Turn this.

拉那个。转这个。

Pull that. Turn this.

这这简直是我可以

It's it's just I can

闭着眼睛做到。我是曼尼。

do my eyes closed. I'm Manny.

我是诺亚，这位是德文。

I'm Noah. This is Devin.

在我们的新节目《无稽之谈》中，我们将深入探讨这类问题。请跟随我们一起对话过度自信领域的顶尖专家。

And on our new show, no such thing, we get to the bottom of questions like these. Join us as we talk to the leading expert on overconfidence.

缺乏专业知识的人，往往也缺乏意识到自己缺乏专业知识所需的专业知识。

Those who lack expertise lack the expertise they need to recognize that they lack expertise.

然后当我们真正尝试整个事情时。等等。什么？哦，那是跑道。我正在看这个东西。

And then as we try the whole thing out for real. Wait. What? Oh, that's the runway. I'm looking at this thing.

看到了吗？请在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或任何你获取播客的地方收听《无稽之谈》。

See? Listen to no such thing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

你是否在寻找让日常生活更快乐、更健康、更高效、更具创造力的方法？我是格雷琴·鲁宾，《幸福计划》的畅销书作者，在《与格雷琴·鲁宾一起更幸福》播客中为你带来新见解和实用解决方案。我的联合主持人和幸福实验对象是我的妹妹伊丽莎白·克拉夫特。

Are you looking for ways to make your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one bestselling author of The Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. My cohost and happiness guinea pig is my sister, Elizabeth Kraft.

我是伊丽莎白·克拉夫特，好莱坞的电视编剧和制片人。加入我们，一起探索关于培养幸福和好习惯的想法和技巧。

That's me, Elizabeth Kraft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore ideas and hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits.

请收听来自Lemonada Media的《与格雷琴·鲁宾一起更幸福》。

Check out happier with Gretchen Rubin from Lemonada Media.

你列出的另一种控制注意力的方法是进入心流状态，即做那些让人全神贯注的事情。这是控制注意力的一种方式。另一种是冥想，它可以增强你进入心流状态的能力。你还提到了大自然。

One of the other ways you list to control your attention so we talked about getting into flow states, you know, doing things that are engrossing. That's one way to control your attention. Another is to meditate, which can redound positively toward your capacity to get into flow. And then another thing you mentioned is nature.

嗯。这个有点意思，也稍具争议性，因为我认为相关数据有些混杂，但我也被说服了。我认为这确实很重要。我住在乡村，当然非常享受乡村生活，但比不上那些从未见过乡村的人来拜访我时的感受。他们真的非常喜欢。

Mhmm. This is an interesting, slightly controversial one because I think the data on it is is a bit mixed, but I'm a convert too. I think it's definitely something too. I live in the countryside and I certainly really enjoy the countryside, but not as much as people who've never seen the countryside when they come out to visit me. They really do love it.

我认为其有效的原因可能在于我们的环境——虽然我尚未获得数据证实——我的假设是城市环境高度趋同。它们井然有序、结构分明，让人能自动导航般穿行。你几乎可以机械地完成日常通勤，甚至常常不记得自己是如何到达目的地的，因为我们对出行通勤的例行程序已习以为常。而在自然环境中，除非你长期居住于此，即便走相同的路径，其不可预测性也大得多。同时自然景观在美学上也更令人愉悦，因为它充满了引人入胜的景致。

And I think probably why it works is that our environments, and I haven't got the data yet to prove it, my hypothesis is urban environments are very much the same. They're organized, they're structured, and you can navigate them on autopilot. You literally can just kind of go through your daily commute, and very often, you you don't even remember how you got where you are because we're so used to the routine of travel and commuting. When you're in nature, unless you live there all the time, you follow the same path, it's much more unpredictable. It's also aesthetically more pleasing because it's full of very interesting sites and so on.

但我认为大自然迫使你真正留意脚下之路与行走之处，全身心与环境互动。这就是我对自然疗愈机制的理解。当然已有研究表明，通过脑成像观察默认模式网络时，相比城市环境，身处自然会使该网络活动减弱。因此我推测，由于城市环境高度可预测且结构化，人们在其中穿行时实际上进入了自动驾驶状态。

But I think what it forces you to do is actually be mindful of where you're stepping and where you're walking and just really engaging with the environment. So that would be my understanding of what's going on in nature. And of course, there are some studies showing that if you look at brain imaging, looking at the default mood network, it's subdued when you're out in nature compared to going around the urban environment. So I suspect that urban environments, because they're very predictable and they're structured in such a way, is that you literally go on autopilot when you're navigating them.

此外，你被诱导毒性比较的广告包围着。那么第六课'与他人联结'——我注意到第二课是'避免孤立'，这是同一概念的不同表述吗？

Also, you're surrounded by advertisement, which is inducing toxic comparison. Yeah. So lesson six is connect with others, and I'm just wondering, lesson two is avoid isolation. Is this the same thing said differently?

确实如此。第六课我试图探讨关于同步性的迷人研究，揭示群体活动中大脑如何真正实现同步。同时我强调通过积极倾听和建立信任来深化社交联结。这部分内容回溯到尼克·埃普利等人的研究：我们常因担心尴尬而回避社交互动。

Yeah. I guess so. What I was trying to do in in lesson six is really kinda talk about some of the really fascinating research talking about synchronicity, talking about the studies which are revealing our brains literally do become synchronized, whether doing group activities. Also, I try to emphasize how to enhance your social connection, talking about active listening, and just really kind of learning to trust others. So this is a chapter which is it goes back to work by a bunch of people, what Nick Eppley comes to mind, showing that we tend not to engage in social connection because we think it will be awkward.

我们在多方面误判了社交的价值，低估了它对自己和他人带来的满足感。这实质上是号召人们主动创造有益的人际互动。它不仅是避免孤独的反面，更聚焦于如何具体激发这类积极交流。

We misjudge it in many ways, and we underestimate how important and how satisfying it will be for not just ourselves, but other people as well. So it's really a call to action to try and get people to go out there and start to actively engage with others in a way which is beneficial. It's the flip side of avoiding loneliness, but with much more kind of focused activities on what you can do to actually stimulate those sorts of positive interactions.

什么是同步性？

What is synchronicity?

同步性即脑波的天然节律。现代影像研究显示，当两人共同经历某事（如听故事）时，他们的大脑会像共振般开始同步。这听起来有些玄妙，但我认为它印证了我们如同生物计算机的特性。

Well, synchronicity is just the the natural timing of brain waves. You can now do imaging studies where you actually get two people experiencing the same thing. It could be listening to a story or some other, and you can find out that the brain starts to synchronize as if they're resonating in the same frequency as it were. So it sounds a bit spooky and supernatural. I don't think it's anything like that, but it does fit with the findings that we are kind of, we're biological computers in many ways.

当我们同步处理信息时，体验会被放大。意气相投的人步伐会趋同，对话也高度同步。就像此刻——我说话时你在回应，这就是同步活动。

And so when we're processing things in unison, it tends to amplify the experience. So people who like each other tend to walk in step. Conversations are extremely synchronized. We're having a synchronized activity now. I'm talking and then you're responding.

如果同时说话就会混乱。当你与人投契时，那种自然默契正是同步性体现，构成了对话中有来有往的流畅感。这就是我指的同步性。

If we were both talking at the same time, that wouldn't work well. And I think, you know, when you're getting on with somebody, you feel that natural rapport, and that synchronicity reflects the ease of conversation, which is this sort of give and take. So I think that's what I mean by synchronicity.

你还提到积极倾听，具体指什么？

You also mentioned active listening. What is that?

积极倾听是指专注理解对方所言，并针对其内容提出相关问题，而非只是机械点头或表面注视。你可以听人说话却心不在焉，而积极倾听是真正消化对方话语，然后给出能体现你确实理解了的回应。当人们感受到这种倾听时，他们会非常享受，这能在倾听者与倾诉者之间建立极强的联结——尤其是当倾诉者发现对方显然在认真聆听时。

So active listening is paying attention to what someone is saying and then asking them questions relative to what they've just said rather than just nodding away and kind of, you know, looking at them. I mean, you can listen to someone but not really pay attention. Active listening is really processing what they're saying, then coming up with something which reflects the fact that you've actually understood what they've said. And when people have that, they really enjoy that. It creates a really strong bond between the recipient, if they're having someone who's clearly been listening to what they're saying.

当你遇到能真正理解你所说内容的人时，那种交流体验会非常令人满足。

It's very satisfying when you're talking to someone who really clearly understands what you're talking about.

是啊，这是一种善意的操控技巧。

Yeah. It's a benevolent manipulation technique.

确实如此。优秀的政治家和采访者都深谙此道，且能运用得不着痕迹。

It is. Yeah. And and very good politicians and and interviewers will know how to do it very effortlessly.

你还提到要学会信任他人，具体是指什么？

You also mentioned learning to trust other people. What are you pointing at there?

其实我在某次讲座中专门探讨过失败的价值。我认为袒露失败至关重要，展现脆弱性也是。我们常因害怕被负面评价而竭力维持完美形象，但事实上，当人们暴露出人性弱点与脆弱面时，反而会更受欢迎。

Well, I actually in one of the lectures, make a virtue of talking about failure. To me, failure is a really important thing to disclose. Vulnerability. We're fearful sometimes of being judged negatively by others, and so we always want to put on a very impressive best face as it were. But actually, when people disclose information, which reveals that they're human in many ways, and they also have vulnerabilities, we like them more.

我们会更欣赏这样的人，更容易产生共鸣，因为这体现了某种程度的信任。回顾罗伯特·帕特南的研究，那些幸福指数或社会联结度高的国家，其核心正是信任——国民彼此信任，社区体系也更开放互联。

We can appreciate them more. We can identify with them more because I think it shows a level of trust and trust is really important. Going back to Robert Putnam's work, at those nations, which seem to have really good levels of happiness, if you like, or social connectedness, what they really have is trust. They trust each other. They have community systems which are much more open to interconnectedness.

因此北欧国家的社会信任度通常高于英美等个人主义社会，后者往往对他人怀有更多戒备。而社会信任度高的国家，整体幸福感也更强。

So the Nordic countries typically have higher social trust than more individualistic societies like The UK and The US, where we tend to be a little bit more fearful and aware or frightened of others. Whereas those countries which have good social trust tend to have overall general better happiness as it were.

所以你是说我们应该适当冒险、信任他人并接受失败？

So you're saying we should take some risks, trust people, and be willing to fail?

我认为这些都很重要。年轻一代——至少是我的学生——明显对失败过度恐惧。他们总选择最轻松的路径，不敢挑战自我，一旦事情偏离计划就会过度沮丧。

I think all those things are good. I think failure is and this is something which is very obvious in the younger generation, certainly my students. They are really risk adverse. They will take the easiest path. They won't challenge themselves, and they get overly upset if they think they'll go according to plan.

他们往往不会将自己置于通过更多自我挑战来真正取得进步的情境中。我认为这在教育领域尤为可惜，因为这正是我们所需要的——需要愿意冒险的人。因此，我认为失败是应该坦然公开的经历。他们看着我时会想：哦，你从未失败过。

They tend not to put themselves in situations where they could actually advance by challenging themselves more. And I think that's unfortunate when it comes to education, because that's really what we need. We need people who are willing to take risks. And so I think failure is something that we should disclose. They look at me and they think, oh, you've never failed.

你是位成功的教授等等。但他们没意识到的是，我当然也和大家一样有过挫折与失败。丹，当你了解这些时——你也深有体会，你谈过自己的创业经历——我认为当人们听到这些故事时，你会显得更有人情味，让人感觉更真实。

You're a successful professor and so on. But what they don't realize, of course, is I have a history as we all do of setbacks and failures. I think when you learn about that, and you'll know this, Dan, you've talked about your startup. I think when people hear about that, I think it makes you much more personable. It makes people much more real.

当你面对一个看似从未经历过任何挫折的人时，我反而不会特别信任这样的人。正因如此，我认为坦诚失败能让我们赢得他人信任。

When you're presented with someone who seems never to have had any setbacks, then I don't particularly trust someone like that. So that's why I think trust enamors ourselves to other people.

什么是好感差距？

What is the liking gap?

本质上是关于他人如何看待我们的误判。当你让人们进行对话后询问'你觉得对方有多喜欢你'时，人们通常会低估对方对自己的好感度。这再次成为人们不愿开启对话的原因之一——他们预判自己不会被喜欢或场面会尴尬。这其实是基于'互动不会如实际那般愉快'的错误假设。

It's basically it's a misjudgment about how we're perceived. When you ask people to have conversations and then you ask them afterwards, how much do you think this person liked you? People will typically underestimate the degree to which the other person likes them. So again, it's one of the reasons why people are reluctant to enter into conversations because they think they're not going to be liked or they think it'll be awkward. And so again, it's a miscalculation based on an assumption that interactions are not going to be as pleasant as they generally turn out to be.

我认为这种情况可能因科技发展而恶化——我们丧失了对话的艺术，失去了更频繁互动的机会。而这些都需要练习。当你开始适应这类互动后，你对互动结果的预判就会更准确些。

And I think that's got worse, possibly because of technology, we've lost the art of conversation. We've lost the opportunities for interacting on a much more regular basis. And I think that all of that comes with practice. And once you start to become more comfortable with those interactions, then you're probably a bit more accurate about how they're gonna go.

什么是聚光灯效应？

What is the spotlight effect?

好的。聚光灯效应是指人们总以为他人会注意到自己的缺点和瑕疵。由于自我中心思维，我们都觉得自己存在某个明显的人格缺陷、外貌问题等，并假设所有人都注意到了。但实际上人们通常根本不会在意。

Okay. The spotlight effect is the assumption that everyone notices your weaknesses and flaws. And so we all think because we're so egocentric, we've got this kind of obvious gaping flaw in our personality or how we look or whatever. So we assume everyone notices our weaknesses and flaws. But in fact, people generally don't.

他们察觉不到我们的失误。在交谈中我们总觉得自己表现比实际更糟，但事实往往比你想象顺利得多。这再次说明，人们倾向于高估他人对自己的负面评价。

They don't know when we're screwing up. We think we're doing worse than we really are in conversations, but actually it's going a lot better than you imagine. So again, it's a bias to assume everyone thinks worse of you than they really do.

给这个现象命名很有帮助。第七课：跳出自我预设。

Helpful to name this. Lesson seven, get out of your own head.

是的。嗯，那是书中最终的章节。整个故事讲述的是如何减少自我中心。我提到了一些最新研究，人们确实会经历意识状态的改变，这是杜克大学和伦敦大学学院关于致幻剂的研究，发现它们对治疗顽固性抑郁症患者相当有效。当然，我并不是提倡大家违法或开始服用致幻剂，但有趣的是它们直接影响默认模式网络，通过血清素能活动起作用。

Yeah. Well, that's the kind of ultimate chapter in the book. It's all a story about becoming less egocentric. I talk about some of the recent work where you literally are experiencing altered states of consciousness, and this is work out at Duke and University College London on hallucinogenics, which have found out to be actually reasonably good for people who have intractable depression. Now, I'm not advocating everyone breaks the law or starts taking hallucinogenics, But what is interesting about them is they impact directly on the default mode network, their serotonergic activities.

对于那些从未有过类似意识状态改变的人，他们普遍反映的一种体验是自我感的解构。你不需要通过那种方式也能获得自我感的改变。你可以从各种经历中获得，无论是集体活动还是个人体验。最有效的方式是——如果你足够富裕的话（丹，我不知道你怎么样），但如果你能进入太空回望地球，人们常报告说他们的自我感并未减弱，而是感受到与人类更深的联结和归属感。这正是我说的‘跳出自我’的含义。

And for people who've never had an altered state of consciousness like that, one of the things they commonly report is their sense of self is deconstructed. You don't have to do something like that to have an altered sense of self. You can get that from all sorts of experiences, from communal experiences, all experiences. The most powerful things you can do is if you're wealthy enough, I don't know about you, Dan, but if you can go out into outer space and look back at the earth, people often of report that their sense of self is not diminished, it's more a sense of connectivity with humanity, a sense of belonging. And that's what I mean by getting out of your head.

这是以有意义的方式与周围人建立联结。因为当你将快乐指向他人并源自他人时，这种快乐比你试图向内索取的快乐更真实。你可以犒劳自己——比如疯狂购物进行零售疗法，这会让你短暂开心，但这种快乐并不真实，很快会消散。而如果你将精力用于丰富周围人的生活，不仅他们会更喜欢你，这种快乐也更真实持久。因为如果你是自身善行的发起者、实施者和接受者，你清楚知道它们何时会停止带给你益处。

It's becoming interconnected with those around you in a way which is meaningful. Because the happiness that you experience is more authentic when it's directed towards others and derived from others than the happiness that you try to turn in on yourself. You could treat yourself to, I don't you could go on a shopping spree and have some retail therapy and that'd make you a little bit happy, but that happiness isn't authentic and it will soon dissipate. Whereas if you use your energies to enrich the lives of others around you, well, you'll benefit from the fact that they'll like you a lot more, but also it's more authentic and it's going to last a lot longer. Because the reason is if you're the instigator, purveyor and recipient of your own acts of kindness, well, you know when they cease to give you any benefit.

但若你将善意指向他人，你永远不知道他们何时会厌倦。你总能回味这样的想法：‘布鲁斯真是个好人，他请了所有人喝咖啡’。然后你可以带着‘他们对我印象很好’的满足感离开。

Whereas if you direct it towards others, you never know when they get fed up of it. You can always kind of reflect the fact that, yeah, that guy, Bruce, is a really good guy. He just bought a whole round of coffee. One nice guy he is. And then you can walk away thinking, they think well of me.

这是我多次在节目中提到的小小牢骚，未来还会继续——我要对常听节目的老听众们略带歉意地说（如果‘歉意’这个词成立的话），正如你在书中指出的：让他人快乐能让你快乐。在我看来，我对人类未来持51%对49%的乐观态度——并非压倒性乐观，但略多于悲观。这种乐观正是基于人类操作系统中的这个设计特性：行善能带来愉悦感。

One of my little rants that I've gone on before on this show many times, and will go on many times in the futures, but I say this with some sheepishness or apologeticness, if that's even a word to the frequent listeners who've heard me say this before, but as you point out in the book, making other people happy makes you happy. And in my view, I'm like 51, 49% optimistic about the future of the species. So not like overwhelmingly optimistic, but slightly more optimistic than pessimistic. And that optimism is based on this design feature in the human operating system, that doing good makes you feel good.

没错。我认为这是我们领悟得太晚的人生课程。当你满足了最初对成功、财富等欲望后有了余力，才会意识到：‘我当初为何浪费那么多精力？’特别是临近生命终点时，你会突然顿悟：‘天啊，我真该多花时间陪伴他人、改善他们的生活。’

Yeah. And I think that's a lesson that we learn too late in life. You know, once you've kind of satisfied the initial drives for success and wealth and whatever, and you've got spare capacity, then you realize actually, why was I wasting all that? Especially when you're reaching the end of your life and you realize you haven't got much more in front of you. Then people suddenly have this epiphany that actually, wow, I wish I'd spent more time with other people and making their lives better.

这就是亚里士多德等古希腊哲学家提出的‘幸福论’——生命的价值本质上取决于你丰富周围人生活的程度。

So this is eudaimonia, the old concept from Aristotle and the Greek philosophers, that really the value of the worth of life is the extent to which you enrich lives of others around you.

我确实在四五十岁后才明白这点，但我认为如果早点有这个认知，我本可以更早获得成功。

I've definitely learned it later in life and in my late forties and fifties, but I actually am of the view that I would have been more successful earlier if I had had this insight.

确实如此。这回到我之前说的：当你真正花时间精力丰富他人生活时，你会更受欢迎，这对你的成功会产生正向循环效应。人们都喜欢和这样的人相处——没人愿意接近自恋自私、只会吸取能量的人。我们更愿意围绕在那些充满活力、积极向上的人身边，而这种能量通常是指向他人的。

I think that's true. And that goes back to what I was saying is that when you do take the time and effort to enrich the lives of other people around you, that makes you liked and that has a feed forward or an amplifying effect on on your success because people like to be around people who are like that. Nobody really wants to be around someone who's so narcissistic and selfish and self focused because they're just drawing all the energy. You need people who are buoyant and effervescent and full of energy and positive. That's who we like to be around, and that's generally directed towards others.

是的。再次引用约瑟夫·戈尔茨坦的话：佛教中的‘开悟’概念多有争议，但他说可以把开悟理解为‘变得轻松’。

Yes. Yeah. Joseph Goldstein, to quote him again, in Buddhism, there's this concept of enlightenment, can be controversial in many ways. Joseph says that one way to think about enlightenment is lightening up.

是的。

Yeah.

‘放轻松’意味着别太把自己当回事，我们更愿意和这样具有他者中心特质的人相处。

And lightening up meaning you're taking yourself less seriously, and we like to be around people who are allocentric in that way.

我同意。

I agree.

好的。我们已经讲完了这七堂课。没错。据我了解，你对学过这七堂课的学生做过一些研究，我很好奇，你发现了什么？

Okay. So we've gone through the seven lessons. Yep. My understanding is you've done some research on the students to whom you've taught these seven lessons, And I'd be curious, what did you find?

我们发现的结果正应验了你著作的标题——《10%更快乐》。这大致就是学生完成我们课程后的提升幅度。根据不同的测量指标，他们的快乐程度提升了10%到15%。这门课的独特之处在于，作为课程参与的一部分——首先我们没有任何考试——但学生必须完成所有实践活动，记录过程，坚持写日记，并以小组形式定期交流。我们以身作则，他们确实需要践行所有这些积极行动。

What we found is really the title of your work, 10% happier. That's roughly what we find when they've done our course. They're they're 10 to 15% happier depending on which measure As part of the course, and I think this course is fairly unique in that as part of their engagement, first of all, there are no exams in our courses, but they have to undertake all the sorts of activities and they have to document it and they have to keep a journal and they have to meet in small groups. So we practice what we preach. They literally have to do all these positive activities.

如果他们坚持十周，平均快乐水平会提升约10%到15%。我们采用多种测量方式，这个结果非常稳定。每年开课都能复现这个效果，不过有好消息也有坏消息。好消息如上所述，坏消息是约六个月后，很多人又回落到了基准水平。

And if they do that for ten weeks, on average, they're about 10 to 15% happier. We use different measures, but that's very reliable. We find that every year we've run it and there's good and bad news. That's the good news. The bad news is after about six months, a lot of them have gone back down to baseline again.

好消息是，如果跟踪观察长达两年，那些持续践行活动的人能保持较高的快乐水平。这就像身体健康一样，心理健康也需要持续投入。必须养成习惯，不存在一劳永逸的捷径。

The good news is that if you follow them up up to two years, those who have kept up with the activities maintain their elevated levels of happiness. So it's like physical well-being. Mental well-being requires consistent effort. It has to become a habit. There's no silver bullet.

没有什么简单方法能让你永远快乐。正如我之前所说，这是一种心态，一种生活态度，一种处事方式。我想这解释了为什么有些人天生更快乐——因为他们更有效地处理问题。

There's no simple thing you can do and then you're happier forever after. It's a state of mind. It's an approach to life. It's a way of dealing with things, as I said earlier. I think that explains why some people are just happier because they process things more effectively.

而那些回落至基准线的人，我认为他们又回到了我们描述过的各种认知偏差中。

Whereas the ones that go back down to baseline, I think they resort back to their kind of all the biases that we've been describing.

是啊。所以我理解的是：快乐是项需要练习打磨的技能。如果忽视这些课程，你就只能停留在基准线——祝你好运吧。不知道你是否认同？当然你可以不认同——但我编造这个‘10%更快乐’的数字时，本是带着玩笑成分的，现在我却要主张这10%会逐年复利增长，当然这话也带着几分戏谑。

Yeah. So I take from that that happiness is a skill and that you need to practice in order to hone that skill. And if you ignore these lessons, you'll stay at baseline and good luck with that. I'm wondering, would you agree with me? You may not agree with me, but my view having made up this 10% happier number completely, you know, as a joke or partially as a joke, I now argue that the 10% compounds annually, which is also somewhat tongue in cheek.

但如果你持续练习这些技能，实际上，随着时间的推移，你在起点上的幸福感将显著提升超过10%。

But that if you keep practicing these skills, actually, you will over time be significantly more than 10% happier at the point of origination.

没错。从经济学角度看，10%的年复利会呈指数级增长。但我确实认为这种幸福感会随时间增强。其机制不仅在于应对个人挫折——毕竟我们一生中都会面临挑战——更在于当你成为更沉稳的人时，就能开辟出更顺畅的人生道路。

Right. Well, compound interest at 10% annually would be exponential rise as an economist. But, yeah, I certainly think it does strengthen over time. And I think the mechanism is not only addressing all your own setbacks, and we all face things over the course of our life. But as you become a more settled person, I think then you start to carve a path through life which is less difficult.

这也意味着你会成为他人愿意接近的对象，因为你显得从容自在。虽然作用方式多样，但我同意你的观点——这种能力可以累积。我称之为实用智慧，有些人则是间接获得的。

And it also means that you're someone that people navigate or migrate towards because you seem to be comfortable. There's a number of ways in which it can work, but I would agree with you. I think that it can accumulate. And I would call that practical wisdom. Some of us get it indirectly.

过去这种智慧来自教堂，来自众多精神领袖。但在技术导致社会日益割裂的今天，我们必须持续努力，不断尝试。

It used to come through the church. It used to come through a lot of our spiritual leaders. But in a world which is increasingly becoming fractionated because of technologies, we gotta keep working on it. Gotta keep trying it.

布鲁斯，这次对话非常愉快。请允许我按惯例提两个结束问题：第一，是否有你希望探讨但我们遗漏的话题？

Bruce, this has been a pleasure. Let me ask you my two habitual closing questions. One is, is there something you were hoping we would get to that we failed to get to?

没有。我认为我们已经相当全面地覆盖了主要领域，我很满意。

No. I think we covered most of the territory pretty adequately. I'm good.

能否请你向大家介绍你的新书、旧作、个人网站及社交媒体账号等信息？

Can you remind everybody of the name of your new book and your older books, your website, your social media handles, etcetera, etcetera?

我正在推广的是《幸福的尺度：美好生活的七堂课》。此前作品包括探讨超自然思维的《超感官》，受佛教启发解构自我幻象的《自我幻觉》，关于人类社交性进化的《驯化的大脑》，以及剖析过度消费心理的《占有欲：为何所求总多于所需》。

The book I'm promoting is the size of happiness, seven lessons for living well. And, my previous books are The Supersense, which is all about supernatural thinking, The Self Illusion, which is a very Buddhist inspired book about the illusion of self. Then I wrote a book called The Domesticated Brain, which is about the evolution of sociality in humans. And then my second last book was Possessed, Why We Want More Than We Need, which is all about relentless consumerism and the psychology of ownership.

你有个人网站吗？

And do you have a website?

有的，brucehood.com——这个相当自我中心的域名能注册成功挺讽刺的，毕竟与我提倡的理念相左。

Yeah. You I've got brucehood.com. I managed to get that. So I've got very egocentric kind of tag, which is kind of ironic given what I've been promoting. Yeah.

我的邮箱用的是danharris.com域名，我所有员工的邮箱也都是类似格式，比如某某@DanHarris.com。这确实有点自我中心，我们以后可能会改掉。布鲁斯，很高兴认识你，非常感谢。

Well, I have danharris.com in my email, and that of everybody who works for me is, you know, fill in the blank @DanHarris.com. So it's pretty egocentric. I think we're gonna change that eventually. Bruce, great to meet you. Thank you so much.

非常感谢你，丹。

Appreciate it. Thank you, Dan.

谢谢布鲁斯。和他交谈很愉快。大家可能记得我们讨论过过度思考的问题——这我深有体会。我们准备了一段专门引导冥想，供你在听完本期对话后使用，帮助应对过度思考。这来自我们的本月导师唐·莫里西奥。

Thank you to Bruce. Great to talk to him. As you may remember, we talked about the problem of overthinking, which I am deeply familiar. We've got a guided meditation designed specifically for you to use after you listen to this conversation to help you deal with overthinking. It comes from our teacher of the month, Don Mauricio.

我们现在每周一、周三的完整节目都会配套发布引导冥想。正如之前所说，重点是帮助大家把节目中听到的精华内容真正内化于心。如果想获取冥想资源，请访问danharris.com。订阅用户可享受多项权益，包括与我视频直播冥想、节目无广告版等更多内容。最后，我要感谢所有辛苦制作本期节目的工作人员。

We're now in this mode where we're releasing guided meditations with all of our full length Monday, Wednesday episodes. As I said earlier, you know, it's all about helping you to take the great stuff you hear on the show and actually get it into your mind in an abiding way. So if you want that meditation, head on over to danharris.com and check it out. If you're a subscriber, you get lots of benefits, including live guided meditations on video with me and the ad free version of the show and much more. Before I let you go, I just wanna thank everybody who worked so hard to make this show.

制作团队包括塔拉·安德森、卡罗琳·基南和埃莉诺·瓦西里。录音工程由Pod People的优秀团队负责。劳伦·史密斯是执行制作人，玛丽莎·施耐德曼是高级制作人，DJ Cashmere担任监制。

Our producers are Tara Anderson, Caroline Keenan, and Eleanor Vasili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Cashmere is our executive producer.

主题曲由Islands乐队的尼克·索伯恩创作。

And Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.

为什么TSA的规定这么让人困惑？你戴着头巾要摘下来吗？

Why are TSA rules so confusing? You got a hood or you wanna take it off?

我是曼尼，这是诺亚，这位是德文。

I'm Manny. I'm Noah. This is Devin.

我们既是死党也是记者，主持的新播客《无稽之谈》专门深挖这类问题。你冲我吼什么？我又不知道要怎么做。要是规定明确我违规了，你骂我活该。

And we're best friends and journalists with a new podcast called No Such Thing, where we get to the bottom of questions like that. Why are you screaming at me? I can't expect what to do. Now if the rule was the same Go off on me. I deserve it.

直接把我关起来算了。欢迎在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或任何平台收听《无稽之谈》。

You know, lock him up. Listen to No Such Thing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

没有这回事。

No such thing.

这是iHeart播客节目。

This is an iHeart podcast.