甲骨文云业务利润率低得惊人，OpenAI的"超级应用"目标，AI版权问题 | 2025年10月7日

欢迎各位收看《信息科技电视》。我是阿卡什·佩斯里察。今天是10月7日星期二。我们为您准备了一期精彩的节目。我们将与专家小组一起解析昨天从OpenAI开发者日获取的所有信息。

Welcome everyone to the Informations TI TV. My name is Akash Pesritsha. It is Tuesday, October 7. We have got a great show planned for you today. We are breaking down everything we learned yesterday from OpenAI's Developer Day with an expert panel.

我们还将讨论一则关于甲骨文AI云业务毛利率的重磅独家新闻。接着我们将转向与Runway首席执行官探讨AI版权问题，并采访WHOOP公司关于其健身追踪设备最新产品的动态。最后，我们特派报道埃隆·马斯克的记者将为大家分析特斯拉宏伟机器人计划面临的挑战。内容非常丰富，让我们直接请出今天的第一位嘉宾。OpenAI在昨天的演示日上大展拳脚，展示了其成为超级应用的新策略，并发布了多款新工具。

We are also talking about a big scoop that we have about the gross margins behind Oracle's AI cloud business. We're then pivoting to talk about AI copyright with the CEO of Runway, and we are also talking with WHOOP about the fitness tracking company's newest product. And finally, we have got our very own Elon Musk reporter coming on to talk about the challenges facing Tesla's big robot ambitions for optimists. We've got a lot going on, so let's get right into our first guest today, folks. OpenAI put on a big show for its demo day yesterday, unveiling new ways it is vying to be a super app, among other new tools that it launched.

鉴于OpenAI在科技领域积累的影响力，整个硅谷都在密切关注这场活动。为了全面解析，我想请出全明星阵容：斯蒂芬妮·帕拉佐罗是我们《信息》杂志的AI记者，马特·舒默是Other Side AI的首席执行官。欢迎二位，很高兴你们能来。

It was an event that all of Silicon Valley was closely watching, given the power that OpenAI has amassed in the technology sector. So to break it all down, I want to bring on an all star panel. Stephanie Palazzolo is our AI reporter at The Information, and Matt Schumer is the CEO of Other Side AI. Welcome to you both. It's great to have you.

谢谢，很荣幸参与。

Thanks. Great to be here.

感谢你们到来。那么斯蒂芙，先从你开始，你认为昨天开发者日的头条新闻是

Thanks for having right. So Steph, let's start with you. What was the headline coming out

什么

of

？

yesterday's Developer Day for you?

是的。我认为对我们来说，最大的新闻是OpenAI持续尝试将ChaChaBeetie打造成一个超级应用，你不仅可以用它来帮助撰写工作邮件或编写有趣的小故事，还能通过ChatGeeBT查看你可能想买的新房子（使用Zillow）、订购杂货或购物。这一点在他们新推出的GPT应用商店中体现得尤为明显，该商店基本上允许你通过ChatGPT访问许多外部应用，比如Zillow、Spotify、DoorDash等众多服务。

Yeah. I think for, you know, for us, the biggest headline is OpenAI continuing to kind of try to make ChaChaBeetie this super app where, you know, you're not just going this to help you write emails for work or to write funny little stories for, but you know, you're looking, you're going to ChatGeeBT to look at new houses you might want to buy using Zillow or ordering your groceries or going shopping. And so that was really seen with their new apps in GBT launch, which basically lets you access a lot of external apps like like Zillow, Spotify, DoorDash. There's a number of them through chat GBT.

马特，那是斯蒂芬的新闻标题。

Matt, that was Steph's headline.

你的标题是什么？很相似。我认为宣布的很多内容在技术上是面向开发者的，确实有很多针对开发者的特定功能。但这确实将为消费者开启新的使用场景和运用这项技术的新方式。其中一些可能会成功，另一些可能不会，正如我们过去所见。

What was your headline? Pretty similar. I think a lot of what was announced is technically for developers, and there is a lot of developer specific stuff. But it really is going to enable new use cases, new ways of using this technology for consumers. Some of it probably will work, some of it probably won't work as we've seen in the past.

我认为这种模式会再次发生。这很令人兴奋，我期待看到哪些东西能真正落地。

I think that pattern is going to happen again. It's exciting. I'm excited to see what actually sticks.

斯蒂芬，你今早在AI议程通讯中提到的其中一点是，我们过去已经见过类似的东西。我是说，这对OpenAI来说并不是全新的想法。

And, Steph, one of the things you talked about in your AI agenda newsletter this morning was that we have seen flavors of this in the past. Mean, is not a net new idea for OpenAI.

没错。我认为这是昨天最有趣的收获之一。有时候你参加这类活动，期待看到巨大的技术突破或疯狂的公告，但很多内容确实感觉与我们过去听到的其他公告相似。例如，ChatGPT中的应用商店与ChatGPT插件有些相似，该公司实际上在2023年3月就宣布过插件。我们还看到他们关于智能体（agents）和简化智能体构建的公告与其他内容存在相似之处。

Yeah, totally. I mean, I think that was one of the most interesting takeaways from yesterday. I think sometimes you go into these events expecting, you know, huge like tech breakthroughs or crazy announcements, but a lot of this did feel similar to some other announcements we've heard in the past. For instance, apps in ChatGBT, there's some similarities with ChatGBT plugins, which a company actually announced in March 2023. And, you know, we also saw other similarities between some of their announcements around agents and making agents easier to build.

这是他们长期以来一直在讨论的事情。因此，昨天的发布会感觉像是OpenAI在说：嘿，我们谈论这些想法（如智能体和将ChatGPT作为超级应用）已经很久了，今年让我们尝试将其变为现实。

This is a thing that they've been talking about for a very long time. And so Zender's idea yesterday kind of felt like OpenAI basically saying, Hey, we've been talking about these ideas like agents and ChatGPT as a super app for a very long time. This year, let's try to make that a reality.

没错。

Right.

所以Matt，昨天我们都在看他们展示的演示和代理工具，现在开发者能更轻松地创建自己的代理了。我是说，这引发了一连串的推文或X上的帖子，说OpenAI刚刚扼杀了所有那些试图让代理更易用的初创公司。你怎么看？

So Matt, yesterday, we were all watching the demos that they had and the agent tools, the ability for developers to now make their own agents much more easily. I mean, this sparked a whole parade of tweets and or posts on X saying, hey. You know, OpenAI just killed all of these startups that that were trying to make agents a lot easier. What's your take on that?

我认为这是个非常酷的产品，展示了可能性。但我不认为它会扼杀代理初创公司。相反，它可能会推动它们发展，对吧？

I think it's a very cool product. I think it shows what's possible. But I don't think it kills the agent startups. If anything, it's gonna boost them. Right?

代理初创公司在供应商之间有自己的定位。OpenAI只服务于OpenAI的模型。你可以在他们的平台上评估其他模型，但从AgentKit的部署来看，似乎只能使用OpenAI模型。我一直在构建代理，也知道很多人多年来一直在做这件事，用AI的时间尺度来说。

The agent startups have sort of a niche where they sit between providers. OpenAI just serves OpenAI models. You can eval other models in their platform, But when you're actually deploying with AgentKit, from what it seems like, you can just use OpenAI models. I've been building agents. I know many other people have been building agents for for years now, I guess, in AI time.

而真正高水平构建代理的人很少只使用OpenAI、Anthropic或Google的单一模型。通常是混合使用，根据具体需求选择最佳模型。你不会想在所有事情上都用OpenAI，因为它的模型并非样样顶尖，对吧？

And very few people that have built agents at a high level are using just OpenAI models or just Anthropic models or just Google models. It's usually a mix using the best model for what it needs to be used for for each specific thing. Right? You don't wanna use OpenAI for everything because OpenAI models aren't the strongest in everything. Right?

成本、能力、各自的强项都存在差异。我认为有些公司会使用这个工具，因为它们不太在意这些差异，不需要在所有方面都追求顶尖性能。但说这会扼杀所有代理初创公司，我不这么认为。相反，它可能会推动它们，因为你需要初创公司来支持使用OpenAI、Anthropic、Google等不同模型。

There's sort of, like, difference in cost, difference in capabilities, difference in just their strong suits. So I think some companies will use this because they don't really care about the difference. You know, they don't need the frontier performance for everything. But when you're talking about this killing all these agent startups, I I don't think so. I think if anything, it's gonna boost them because you need to have startups that allow you to use, you know, OpenAI, Anthropic, Google

但你不认为OpenAI以后会开放平台，允许人们使用其他模型吗？

But but you don't think OpenAI will open things up at all later on to allow people to use other models at all?

我看不到其中的激励因素，这让我认为这不会发生。而且我们还没有从他们那里看到太多迹象表明情况会是这样。也许我错了。没错。但这就是为什么像OpenRouter这样的公司会存在。

I don't see the incentive, which makes me think it's not going to happen. And there hasn't been much that we've seen from them that would indicate that that would be the case. Maybe I'm wrong. Right. But that's why companies like OpenRouter exist.

好的。斯蒂芬，你周围的人同意吗？我是说，那些代理初创公司在这里还有机会吗？

Okay. Steph, do the people in your orbit agree? I mean, do the agent startups still have a chance here?

不，总的来说，我完全同意马特的看法。我认为很多这些代理公告在某种程度上是针对非开发者或可能不太懂技术的人。你知道，我们看到这种非常易于使用的拖放界面，不需要写一行代码，就能让这些代理工作。所以我认为这更多是针对商业用户或只是想制作代理的普通日常消费者，而不是马特刚才提到的那些可能使用其他代理工具的真正技术开发者。

No, I think overall, I definitely agree with Matt. I mean, I think a lot of these agent announcements are in some ways targeted at non developers or people that are maybe not super technical. You know, we saw this kind of very easy to use like drag and drop interface where, you know, without typing a line of code, you're able to make these agents work. And so I think that is a little bit more targeted at, you know, business users or just typical everyday consumers that want to make agents, not necessarily the really technical developers that might be using some of these other agent tools that Matt was just talking about.

没错。马特，我想问你，让我们回到超级应用的部分，因为我认为这是昨天公告中最有趣的部分之一。你知道，我试着从那些允许他们的应用通过ChatGPT访问的公司的角度来思考这个问题。我们的联合执行编辑马丁·皮尔斯昨晚在他的通讯中提出了一个很好的观点，像Zillow这样的公司参与其中的动机是什么？你知道，我也在思考同样的问题，那就是，嘿，这可以让更广泛的受众访问我的工具。

Right. Matt, I want to ask you, let's go back to the super app part of this, because that is, I think, one of the most interesting sort of parts of yesterday's announcement. Know, I'm sort of trying to think about it from the perspective of the companies that are allowing their apps to sort of now be accessed through ChatGPT. And our co executive editor, Martin Pierce, made a good point in his newsletter last night about what is the incentive for something like a Zillow to participate in this? And, you know, I'm sort of thinking about the same thing, which is that, hey, know, it allows people a wider audience to access my tool.

我明白这一点。但你某种程度上失去了对人们如何开始使用你的软件的入口点的控制。他们的动机是什么？我是说，我们对这里的商业模式了解多少？OpenAI是否从中分一杯羹？

I get that. But you're sort of losing control over the entry point as to how people actually start navigating your software. What is the incentive for them? Mean, do we know anything about the economics here? Is OpenAI getting a cut of of the subscriptions?

你对这一切怎么看？

What do you think of all that?

我个人无法谈论商业模式。我相信外面有一些信息，而且我相信我们会了解更多。我的看法是，这将分为两个阶段。第一阶段是证明这是否真的可行。对吧？

I can't personally speak to the economics. I'm sure there is some information out there, and I'm sure we'll learn more. The way that I think about it is there are gonna be two phases. The first phase is proving out if this is even a thing. Right?

我们见过GPTs，也见过ChatGPT插件，对吧？这两者都没真正火起来。但这个可能会。

We saw GPTs. We saw ChatGPT plug ins. Right? Neither of those really took off. This may take off.

也可能不会。在初始阶段，关键在于分发渠道。这能否为我的终端带来更多用户？开发者们会去探索。能否找到更适合这种模式的新界面？

This may not. In the initial phase, it's gonna be about distribution. Can this get more users to my end? Developers are gonna explore. Can find new interfaces that work better in this way?

然后问题是，这真的能持续吗？人们会使用它吗？它能触达用户吗？如果它持续发展、持续发展、再持续发展，最终可能会成为人们访问应用的常规方式。

Then the question is, does this actually stick? Are people using this? Is this getting distribution to the users? Right. If it keeps going and keeps going and keeps going, eventually, is going to be the common way in which people access apps.

我不确定是否会这样。实际上我持一定怀疑态度。但假设我们真的做到了，这就是人们访问应用的方式。

I don't know if that's gonna be the case. I'm actually somewhat skeptical. But let's say we actually do get there, and this is the way that people access apps.

不过为什么怀疑呢？为什么怀疑？

Skeptical why, though. Skeptical why.

我不确定。这个界面感觉还不够完美，不足以让这类产品真正运作起来。这就像在穿一根极其难穿的针，我认为它必须做到绝对惊艳——比其他任何方式都好得多。

I don't know. The interface doesn't feel as perfect as it needs to feel for something like this to truly work. Like, this is threading a very, very tricky needle, and I think it needs to be just utterly incredible. Like, so much better than anything else.

所以你是说这个用户界面对你来说...我是说，你昨天看了演示。你觉得它还没达到你的预期？

So you you said the UI for you wasn't it wasn't I mean, you saw the demos yesterday. You say it's it's not there for you?

它并没有让我惊艳。感觉并不完美。好吧，也许勉强够用。但我的感觉是，一旦这类东西可行，如果我们达到

It didn't blow me away. It didn't feel like it was perfect. Okay. And maybe it's good enough. But my feeling is once something like this works, if we get to

那个程度，到那时，就

that point, at that point, it's

会像没有iPhone应用一样。你必须做这件事，必须这么做才能维持业务运转，因为用户都在那里。但我们还没到那一步。第一阶段只是分发渠道，然后才是验证这东西是否有效？

gonna be like, you know, not having an iPhone app. You need to do it. You need to do that to keep your business going because that's where the people are. But we're not there yet. The first phase is just distribution, and then does this thing work?

那么，Steph，你对激励措施这部分怎么看？我是说，这些公司除了‘嘿，我要蹭ChatGPT热度’之外，还有什么动力参与进来？

And, Steph, what's your take on the incentives piece? I mean, these companies, what is their incentive to participate in this other than, hey. I am attaching myself to ChatGPT. Why not?

对。Matt最后其实稍微提到了。我觉得这些公司某种程度上会想——我还能怎么办？用户都去ChatGPT创建Spotify歌单、查询餐厅信息、预订座位了。要么主动适应这个趋势，要么等着竞争对手抢占先机。

Yeah. I mean, think Matt just kind of started to touch on it at the very end. I think there is a sense for some of these companies of, you know, what else am I supposed to do, right? We're going to ChatGPT to make playlists on Spotify or to look up information about local restaurants and to book dinner reservations. Like, you either meet them where they are or one of your competitors does.

企业宁愿参与这场对话，也不愿让对手夺走机会。不过我也同意Matt的观点，现在下定论还为时过早。对他们来说，这是种既能加入讨论，又暂时不用面对广告流失等负面影响的折中方案。

And I think companies would rather like be in the conversation than, you know, let one of their rivals take that opportunity away from them. Right. I do agree with Matt where, you know, it's a bit early to really say for sure. So for them, I think this is a way for them to get in a conversation without, you know, immediately having to deal with potential bad consequences of, you know, losing advertising. Right.

没错。说实话，这个模式的经济效益最让我们感兴趣，却也最难以捉摸。Matt，最后请教你——昨天还宣布了许多其他内容，包括新API接口和发布的GPT-5 Pro模型。

Right. And I mean, look, the economics of this is certainly what's most interesting to us and what we know least about. Matt, I want to finish with you. There were so much other things that were announced yesterday, not the least of which were new APIs. You had the new GPT-five Pro model that they launched.

就给我们讲讲你的精彩集锦吧。你对其他那些公告有什么重要看法？我知道我们可以花上三个小时来讨论

Just give us your sort of highlight reel here. What were your big takes on some of those other announcements that they I know we could spend three hours on

这个商店。我会快速过一遍清单。

the store. I'll run down the list.

但是给我们讲讲你对这些的犀利见解

But but give us your hot takes about the

剩下的部分。Voice one相当简单。这是个不错的升级，但不是颠覆性的。价格稍微便宜些。

rest of it. Voice one's pretty simple. It's a nice upgrade. It's not a game changer. It's slightly cheaper.

这会是个稍微好点的型号。很棒，但不会开启任何新的使用场景。Stora相当有趣。将其纳入API非常棒。将会涌现一批新的视频生成说唱创业公司，它们会找到机会，不管能否持久。

It's gonna be a slightly better model. That's great, but it's not gonna enable any new use cases. Stora is quite interesting. Having that in API is fantastic. There are gonna be a new breed of video gen rapper startups that pop up that will find opportunities whether they last.

这是个开放性问题，但绝对值得关注。就其本质而言，定价其实非常合理。在很多方面，相比VO，它以更低的价格提供了更好的模型。专业版不在此列，但普通版7.20美元的价格确实如此。这将开启一些新的应用场景。

That's an open question, but it's definitely gonna be interesting to watch. And the pricing's actually really good for what it is. It's in many ways cheaper than VO for a better model. Not the case for the pro model, but for the regular model at $7.20 p, it is. That's gonna open up some new use cases.

API中的GPT五专业版非常有趣。对大多数人来说这无关紧要。这将面向消费者。它很贵。超级贵。

GPT five pro in the API is very interesting. Most people, this won't matter for. This will be in the consumer. It's It's expensive. Super expensive.

确实。但对于那些不惜重金追求更优产品的企业买家来说，空白支票政策简直太棒了。我自己也会时不时用它来获得更好的输出效果。我太爱专业版模型了，它真的非常出色。

Yeah. But for the blank check, you know, enterprise buyers that will pay anything for something better, it's fantastic. And I'm gonna be using it some sometimes to get better outputs. I I love the pro model. It's fantastic.

今天真正低调的大新闻其实是GPT-5微调功能的私测版。虽然相关消息不多，但这绝对会令人超级兴奋——当你获得GPT-5级别的模型后，还能通过强化微调等技术进行二次优化，对吧？

The sleeper of the day actually is GPT five fine tuning in private beta. I haven't seen much on this, but that is going to be super exciting. When you get a GPT five class model and you can actually fine tune on top of it using reinforcement fine tuning Right. Or similar techniques. Right?

这功能强大到没话说。不过就像我常说的，你们的GPT-6模型本质上就是微调过的GPT-5，当然...（笑）距离那天还有段时间。这种技术能以更低成本实现许多有趣的应用场景。

That is powerful. That being said, as I always say, you know, your GPT six model will be a fine tuned GPT five, but Right. Right. Have some time before that. So that's gonna enable some very interesting applications at lower cost.

太精彩了。马特、斯蒂芬妮，非常感谢二位做客节目。今天信息量爆炸，我们期待在更多用户开始使用这些工具、引发更广泛讨论时再次邀请你们。再次感谢！这位是Other Side AI的马特·舒默，以及The Information的AI记者斯蒂芬妮·帕拉佐洛。

Great. Well, Matt and Stephanie, thank you so much for coming on. It was a jam packed day, and we look forward to having you on again as we see some of these tools start to get used and what more and more people are thinking about it. Thank you again for coming on. That is Matt Schumer from Other Side AI and Stephanie Palazzolo, our AI reporter at The Information.

甲骨文已成为2025年最炙手可热的股票之一，因其高管预测未来五年通过向OpenAI等AI巨头出租云服务器将获得3810亿美元收入。但今天The Information发布的报道揭示了这项云业务利润率方面令人震惊的发现——需要说明的是，消息公布后甲骨文股价今晨正在下跌。我非常荣幸邀请到这篇报道的两位撰稿人：本刊云计算领域记者安妮莎·加德西，以及金融分析专栏作家安妮塔·拉马斯瓦米。

Oracle has turned into one of the hottest stocks of 2025 after executives projected $381,000,000,000 in revenue that will come from renting out cloud servers to AI giants like OpenAI over the next five years. But today, The Information published a story that has some pretty staggering findings about the profitability margins that cloud business has. I should say that Oracle stock is sliding this morning on the news. So I'm very excited to have two of the reporters on who wrote that story. Anissa Gardesi is our cloud and compute reporter here at The Information, and Anita Ramaswamy is our financial analysis columnist.

各位，今天有大新闻！天啊，该从何说起呢？安妮莎，快告诉我们你的发现。

Big news today, folks. Oh my goodness. Where do we start? Anissa, tell us what you learned.

嗨，科什。没错，我们今早这篇报道希望能帮助读者真正理解甲骨文新兴GPU云业务的盈利状况——高管们明确表示这将是未来增长点。我们的调查显示，过去两个季度该业务毛利率在8%至14%之间波动。这为外界了解企业转型该业务的真实情况提供了新视角。

Hey, Kosh. So yeah, we we had this story this morning that hopefully will help readers really understand the profitability around Oracle's new GPU cloud business, which is really where executives have said the future growth is grow is going. And what we found is that in the last couple of quarters, the gross profit margin on this business, fluctuated between eight, twenty, and 14%. And, you know, we're sort of shedding some new light on what it's really like for the companies pivoting to this business. Right.

要知道，软件公司通常享有更高的利润率，但随着甲骨文转向GPU云计算，投资者应预期利润率会降低且可能波动，至少在转型初期如此。

You know, software companies are used to much higher margins, but as Oracle makes the pivot into GPU to cloud, investors should expect lower and potentially lumpy margins, at least as they get going.

没错。我们需要明确的是，对于不熟悉利润率情况的人来说，这确实很低。软件行业的利润率通常在80%左右。而我们报道中提到的这些毛利率，可以说是极其微薄。

Right. And we should make clear, I mean, for people who don't know the margins landscape that well, this is low. Okay? Software margins are typically 80%. I mean, these gross margins are, I mean, you know, they are razor thin as we outlined in the story.

他还问道：我们是否知道为何当前利润率如此之低？这是预期之中的吗？

And he said, Do we know anything about why these margins are so thin right now? Was this expected?

是的，我想指出的是，虽然我们有甲骨文的数据，但其他云服务提供商实际上并未公开这些数字。因此很难进行直接比较。像亚马逊这样的公司，其整体云业务（包括GPU和传统工作负载及其他服务）的净利润率通常在30%左右。我们能查看甲骨文的数字是个优势，但要全面了解整个GPU领域的状况仍很困难。

Yeah, I think one thing I'd point out is that, you know, we have Oracles, but you know, the other cloud providers don't actually publicly release these numbers. And so it's very hard to find apples to apples comparisons. Companies like Amazon, which traditionally has a net margin, you know, in the thirties, that's across its whole entire cloud business inclusive of GPUs but also more traditional workloads and in other services. So we have the benefit of seeing Oracle's numbers, but you know, exactly the full picture on what the entire GPU landscape looks like.

确实。

Right.

投资者原本就预期甲骨文的GPU业务利润率会较低，但根据我们的交流，实际数字比预期还要低。

I think investors thought that, you know, GPUs were going to be lower margin for Oracle, but based on our conversations, these were lower than expected.

好的。那么安妮塔，请告诉我们为何利润率如此之低。他们目前的主要开支在哪里？我知道芯片成本很高。

Okay. So Anita, talk to us about why these margins are so low. What are they spending money right now on? I mean, I know the chips are expensive. Yeah,

确实如此。正如你所说，芯片是最大的成本，而数据中心整体上也非常昂贵。甲骨文不仅需要购买英伟达的芯片，还包括所有网络设备、服务器等硬件投入。有趣的是，这让我觉得甲骨文实际上在低价提供他们的服务，这也解释了为什么这项业务的利润率如此之低。

absolutely. So the chips, like you said, are the biggest cost and the data center is really expensive in general. There's not only the chips from Nvidia that Oracle has to buy, but there's also all of the networking equipment, there's servers, there's a lot of stuff that goes into the data center in terms of hardware. And the interesting thing about this is that it suggests to me that Oracle is actually pricing their offering really low. And that's why they're incurring a low margin on this business.

他们通过折扣吸引了一批客户，通常以低于其他供应商的价格出租GPU。这是导致利润率偏低的主要原因。但正如安妮莎所说，我们无法进行精确的同类比较，因为谷歌云的财务数据没有单独披露，亚马逊云服务也没有单独报告毛利率。

They have signed up a bunch of customers with discounts. They've been offering their GPU rentals at a lower cost typically than other providers. And that's a big factor as to why the margins are as low as they are. But like Anissa said, we don't really know exactly the apples to apples comparison here because we don't have Google Cloud financial results broken out. AWS doesn't report their gross profit margin separately.

所以我们只能看营业利润率。另一个例子是CoreWeave，这家公司很有意思。随着越来越多的GPU云服务公司通过服务器租赁业务上市，加上我们新闻编辑部对其财务的更多报道，我们将更清楚是什么导致了价格差异。

So we can only really look at the operating margins. Another example here is CoreWeave, which is kind of an interesting one. And so I think as we see more and more of these GPU cloud firms that are doing server rentals come out and go public and there's more reporting hopefully from our newsroom about their financials. We'll have more insight into what is driving the pricing discrepancies.

安妮塔，我想深入探讨一些具体项目。作为我们的金融分析专栏作家，你整天研究这些报表对吧？比如这些昂贵的芯片，其中一个方面是折旧费用——这些芯片贬值速度有多快？实际折旧费用是多少？

Anita, I kind of want to get into some of the line items here. You're our financial analyst columnist. You study these statements all day, right? I mean, you have these expensive chips. One aspect is the depreciation expense on how quickly these chips do depreciate, how much that expense actually is.

这是他们能控制的吗？我们能期待这方面有所改善吗？这个数字未来可能会如何变化？

Is that in their control? I mean, is this something we can expect to get better? How do we think about how this number might improve over time?

这是个很好的问题，阿卡什。芯片折旧可能是这里最大的类别。数据中心所有设备都会产生折旧，而折旧期限的设置——即分摊年限的选择——是企业可控的一个方面，但这种控制力有限。因为当你购入资产后，就需要在其使用寿命内分摊成本。虽然未来这些成本可能会下降，但关键还是取决于英伟达。实际上，甲骨文在老款芯片上能获得更高利润率，因为老芯片成本较低。

Yeah, it's a great question, Akash. So the depreciation for the chips is probably the largest category here. There's depreciation involved with all of the equipment in the data center and the depreciation schedule in terms of how long you take a time period over, I suppose is one form of control that companies have, but it's really only some extent of control because when you buy an asset, you take it and then you kind of split the useful life over a certain number of years and you're incurring that cost in different years. And so I think, you know, we might be able to see these costs come down over time, but it's really in the hands of Nvidia and that's what it's going to come down to. So some of the older chips actually, Oracle is able to incur a higher margin on those because the older chips aren't as costly.

但对于新一代芯片，如果甲骨文和其他云服务商想保持技术领先，恐怕就不得不承受这种利润率冲击。

But, you know, with some of the newer generations of chips, I just think if Oracle and if other cloud providers want to stay at the cutting edge, they probably will have to take this margin hit.

阿妮萨，我想来找你解决这个问题。甲骨文在这里真的有选择吗？我的意思是，它必须参与竞争。我们知道这项技术的发展方向。他们是有替代方案，还是只能被迫接受？

Anisa, I want to come to you to close this out. Does Oracle really have a choice here? I mean, it has to compete. We know the direction this technology is going. Is there an alternative or do they kind of just have to accept it?

我认为高管们非常确定他们想要转向这项业务，现在只是在让大家适应可能的盈利模式。所以当甲骨文与像OpenAI这样的公司谈判多年期大单时，他们可能会降低价格来达成交易，因为从长远来看，这将在未来几年为他们带来比没有AI数据中心业务时更多的收入。我认为某种程度上，他们正在向这个领域转型，这就是马蒂（Marty）将要展现的局面。但他们也会努力改善现状。我们注意到，随着英伟达最新芯片的发布，甲骨文将其部署在数据中心后，会存在一个客户需要时间适应并开始使用这些芯片的过渡期。

I think executives are pretty certain that they want to pivot into this business and they're just sort of getting people used to what profitability might look like. And so I think when Oracle is negotiating, you know, a massive multi year deal with a company like OpenAI, you know, they're gonna maybe lower the price to get that big deal because overall that's gonna generate them lots of revenue over those years, you know, more revenue than they would generate without the AI data center business. So I think partly, you know, they're just, you know, pivoting into this space and this is what Marty's gonna are going to look like. But I think they're gonna be working pretty hard to improve them. And one thing that we noticed was that as NVIDIA's latest chips come out and Oracle installs them in their data centers, there's sort of a gap and a ramp up period where, you know, it takes customers a little bit of time to actually start using those chips and for all

完成。

to complete.

所以我猜测，缩短这个过渡期将成为他们重点努力的方向，从而改善这些数据表现。

So my guess is that that's gonna be a key area that they try to shorten so that they can, you know, improve these numbers.

没错。阿妮塔，你在报道中提到甲骨文可以利用一些旧型号芯片来提升盈利能力，这一点很关键。这实际上与黄仁勋（Jensen Huang）关于新一代芯片将使旧型号淘汰的观点相左。显然甲骨文认为旧芯片仍有利用价值。

Right. And Anita, I should say one thing that you mentioned in the story, you mentioned some of the older chips that Oracle can use to sort of boost its profitability. This was something that you pointed out in the story. You know, it kind of goes against, you know, what Jensen Huang has sort of thought about these chips and the idea that the newer chips will sort of make the older chips obsolete. Clearly, Oracle is saying, well, we can still get some usefulness out of the old ones.

事实上我们不得不这么做，否则我们的毛利率可能会变成负数。是的，在某些情况下

And in fact, we have to because, otherwise our gross margins might be negative Yeah, in some

而且它们仍在销售中。

and they're still selling.

太好了。那么，阿妮萨和阿妮塔，非常感谢你们参加节目。这是个精彩的故事。正如我们所说，报告发布后股价正在下滑。我们期待你们再次做客，讨论这个故事的后续发展。

Great. Well, Anisa and Anita, thank you so much for coming on the show. It was a great story. Like we said, shares are sliding on the report. We look forward to having you on more to discuss how this story develops.

这两位是我们《The Information》新闻编辑室的阿妮萨和阿妮塔。版权一直是人工智能领域的热门话题。如今AI生成的多媒体内容甚至成为OpenAI和谷歌这样大公司的焦点，版权问题愈发需要审慎对待。今天，AI视频公司Runway的首席执行官克里斯托瓦尔·巴伦苏埃拉在本刊发表了关于该主题的独家评论文章，主张政策制定者应将AI生成的艺术与其他艺术同等对待。因此我想邀请克里斯来详细解读他的观点。

That is Anisa and Anita from our newsroom here at The Information. Copyright has been a hot topic in AI. And now that AI generated multimedia content has become the focus of even the biggest companies like OpenAI and Google, copyright is becoming all the more important to think about carefully. Today, Cristobal Valenzuela, the CEO of AI video company Runway, published an exclusive op ed in the information about this topic, arguing that policymakers should treat AI generated art just like they do any other art. And so I want to bring on Chris to talk more about what he meant in that piece.

克里斯，欢迎回到节目。很高兴你能来。

Chris, welcome back to the show. It's great to have you.

嘿，谢谢邀请。

Hey, thank you for having me.

你在《The Information》今天发表的文章真棒。虽然我想直奔你论点的核心，但或许我们可以从版权基础知识开始？目前传统艺术家——比如音乐人、电影制作人——的版权标准是怎样的？暂时先把AI放一边。

So what a great piece you published today in The Information. I do want to get to what the crux of your argument is, but I thought maybe a good place to start is give us sort of copyright 101. I mean, how do copyright standards work right now for traditional artists? Talking about musicians, filmmakers. Let's put AI aside for second.

我们稍后会讨论AI。现在的通用规则是什么？

We'll get there. How does it work generally?

当然。听着，这一切都基于人类作者权的概念。明白吗？如果你作为人类创作者能够证明你的作品本质上是人类创造的表达，那么你就可以为其申请版权。

Sure. Yeah. Look, it all based it's based on on this idea of human authorship. Right? So if you as a human and an author can create and can express and can prove that what you've created was inherently human, then, like, you can you can you can copyright it.

我认为创作发生的媒介本身就是创作过程的第二维度。无论是摄影、爵士乐还是任何艺术形式，我们历来都是这样评估和思考版权的。我们在此倡导并深入探讨的观点是：AI本质上并未改变这一规则，它理应与其他艺术形式遵循相同的标准。

And I think that the medium on which it happens, it's kind of like a second aspect of that creation process. And so for photography, for jazz, for for any form of expression, that's how we've evaluated and thought about copyright for forever. And so what we're kind of like advocating here and we're go go deeper into it is basically AI really doesn't change that formula, and it should be holding the same standard as any other art form, basically.

明白了。您的意思是，传统版权标准要求创作者必须能证明作品的归属，而您主张的关键在于创作工具的技术属性并不重要——AI本质上只是最新的创作工具。

Got it. And so you're saying that, hey, copyright standards, the way they traditionally work is that you have to be able to prove that you made it. And the argument that you're making is that it doesn't really matter what technology you use to make it. This is just the latest tool, essentially.

完全正确。我认为核心在于理解AI的本质。过去两三年我们对AI的认知影响了版权领域的判断，但必须认识到：当涉及AI生成的视频、图像、音乐等多媒体内容时，我们看到的其实是高度创造性的表达形式。

Correct. Correct. And I think part of it is really understanding what AI is at its core. I think a lot of the assumptions and decisions as to how we interpret AI when it comes to copyright have been based on what we've seen AI do over the last, I would say, three years, two years. Now, it's really important to understand that when you think about media and AI, think about video generated with with AI models and images and music and multimedia formats, you're seeing highly creative forms of expression.

这些系统并非自主创作，背后始终存在人类创作者。AI系统是为艺术家服务的工具，它们用于增强特定创作流程——但最先发起创作过程的永远是人类艺术家。

Right? These are not machines that just create on their own. They're people behind the systems. The systems are there for advocating for artists. They're there to augment a specific creative process, but the ones initializing, starting that creative process are artists first and foremost.

因此，如果艺术家是通过这种媒介进行创作的主体，那么他们理应对创作成果享有权利。这是基本原则。

And so if artists are the ones communicating via this medium, then artists should hold their rights to anything they create. Right.

我想深入探讨些细节问题——目前贵平台有大量用户使用AI生成多媒体内容，这对他们来说是否已成为重大困扰？

So I do want to get into some of the nuances here, but very quickly, I mean, you have tons of users using your platform right now to using AI to generate multimedia content. Has this been a big issue for them?

确实存在挑战。需要预见的是，随着应用场景和用户规模持续扩大（我们现有数千万用户，预计将达数亿），这个问题会愈发显著。我认为在未来几个月，AI视频很可能成为AI技术最重要的应用形态。

It has. I think it's important to recognize as well that it's going to expand as use cases and usage continues to grow. We have tens of millions of users. We expect to get to hundreds of millions of users. I think broadly, AI video will become probably the most important modality of AI over the next couple of months.

我是说，你们正在目睹这一切。每个人都在视频领域投入巨大赌注，既视其为推理引擎，也视其为艺术与创意系统。因此，在人工智能时代，我们应当预期关于版权理解的讨论会面临更大压力。我们真正希望的是能帮助引导、理解并保持一定细微差别，将这项技术视为极其强大的表达媒介，确保讨论不会陷入过度简化或泛化。

I mean, you're you're seeing this. Everyone is is really betting a lot in in video as a both reasoning kind of engine, but also as an art and a creative kind of system. And so we should expect even more pressure on how we understand and think about copyright in the age of AI. And so really, we wanna make sure we can help guide and understand and have a bit of nuance in terms of thinking of this technology as a very powerful medium of expression make sure that discussions don't get lost in simplifications or generalizations.

这里有趣的点在于，你讨论的是人们使用AI创作艺术产生的输出内容。我的问题是：那些用于训练这些模型的海量数据和内容又该如何看待？你主张输出内容应该受到版权保护，但训练过程中可能使用了大量受版权保护的作品——我不是特指你们公司，但普遍而言这些模型最初就是基于这类内容训练的，对吧？

So the interesting part here is you're talking about the content that's the output of people using AI to create this art. Question I have for you is, what about all the data and all the content that goes into training these models? I mean, how do you sort of square your argument that, hey, you should be able to copyright the output with the fact that there's a lot of potentially copyrighted work that is being used. I'm not talking about your company specifically, but generally speaking, there is a lot of this content that's used to train these models in the first place, right?

没错。这是两个完全不同的争议问题。一个涉及合理使用原则的争论，我认为法院很快就会做出裁决。双方论点都有道理，我个人对合理使用持乐观态度，因为本质上这是具有变革性的。

Yeah. So those are two different, totally different conflict questions. One has to do with the argument of free use, and I think the courts are going to be basically deciding very soon. I think there's arguments on both sides. Very optimistic on the free use, because I think this is transformative at its core.

人们用AI创造的内容与我们过去所见截然不同。这些模型在学习世界的各种模式。至于输出端的版权问题，这才是当前最关键的问题。举个典型例子说明讨论焦点如何转向输出：与我们合作的制片厂、制作公司、好莱坞企业，他们最关心的正是输出内容的权益。

What people are using and creating with AI is totally new and different from anything we've seen in the past. And these models are learning patterns around the world. Now, on the copyright, on the output side, that's the question I think that's most important. And I'll give you I'll give you a basically a good example of how this conversation has moved now, and the focus has moved to output. The studios that we work with, the production companies that we work with, the Hollywood companies that we collaborate with, the argument where they care the most about the outputs.

核心在于如何确保创作成果能获得永久版权或使用权。这点至关重要，且技术本身并未改变这一原则——作为人类的创作者理应拥有这些权利。

It's about how do you make sure that you can make something and then, like, have the rights to either copyright it or or use it in perpetuity. And and that's really important. That has change whatsoever with the technology itself. It's just you should be the one owning that because you as a human created it.

我还想追问：你重点谈了视频内容，这是你们的主营业务。但像口语诗这类用ChatGPT等LLM就能生成的作品呢？你的论点是否同样适用？比如用工具写了首诗就想申请版权——这个逻辑能成立吗？

And one question I did want to ask is you talked a lot about video content that is the business that you're in in your piece. What about stuff like, you know, I don't know, spoken word poetry that you can just use an LLM for, you know, with ChatGPT? I mean, does your argument extend to that and saying, hey, I I use this tool to write a poem, but I I wanna copyright that. Like, is that as as far as we're going with it?

这个问题很有意思。某种程度上，艺术家们早已运用随机性进行创作，超现实主义多年来就在探索非自觉创作方式。如果抛开创作方式，只关注创作者意图和掌控力，人类依然能通过AI完成创作。

Yeah. You know, that's a very interesting question. In a way, we have artists using chance. Surrealism has been experimenting with nonconscious ways of creating for years. And so if if you take away the kind of, like, method of creation and just focus on what was the intention, what was the control of the person or the human created it, you can still create it.

某种程度上，这场对话既与AI毫无关联，又与之息息相关。因为我们已然忘记，创造系统的核心理念本就包含自主性。比如上世纪最伟大的艺术家之一约翰·凯奇，他的大部分作品都采用了机遇创作法——当然他拥有这些作品的版权，却并未控制创作过程的每个细节。

Like, this conversation has, in a way, nothing really to do with AI, but also everything to do with AI. Because, like, we've forgotten that some of the core ideas of how you create with systems are autonomous. I mean, John Cage, one of the greatest artists of the last century, embraced channels for all of their like, most of his work. Of course, he owns the copyright for that. He didn't control every aspect of the process of creation.

就像在实验室里做实验时你也会有类似感受，对吧？但选择特定参数输入以获取所需输出的人始终是你。这某种程度上提醒我们要回归本源——重新审视我们看待世界与版权的固有方式。

And the same way that if you do that in a lab, you might feel similar. Right? But you were the one picking up and selecting and inputting specific parts to get the outputs that you need. And so in a way, it's a it's kind of a reminder of to go back to, like, I think how we always look at the world and in terms of copyright.

没错。克里斯，这篇评论写得非常精彩，我推荐大家都去《信息报》上读一读。我们没来得及讨论的部分是，你详细分析了世界各国对此议题的不同处理方式。再次推荐大家阅读这篇专栏文章，作者Runway CEO克里斯托瓦尔·巴伦苏埃拉——对，我重复了两遍Runway CEO。

Right. Well, Chris, it was a great piece, and I encourage everyone to read it in the information. The part that we didn't get to discussing that I encourage people to read about is you do go into detail about how other countries around the world are treating this issue. And so I do recommend everyone go check out the op ed. Again, that is Runway CEO, Cristobal Valenzuela, the CEO of Runway, which I just said twice, CEO of Runway Runway.

言归正传，各位听众我们继续。埃隆·马斯克将大量资源押注在人形机器人Optimus项目上，特斯拉正在研发这款机器人。实际上埃隆声称要在2027年前让Optimus乘坐飞船登陆火星。显然，这颗红色星球带来的挑战不容小觑。

Anyway, we're we're we're keeping on going, folks. Okay. Elon Musk has put a ton of stock into his plans for Optimus, the humanoid robot that Tesla is working on. And in fact, Elon has said that he wants the Optimus to get to Mars on a spaceship by 2027. Understandably, there are a ton of challenges with that planet.

为了深入了解火星计划乃至整个人形机器人领域面临的障碍，我们特别邀请到埃隆·马斯克专题记者西奥·韦德。西奥，非常感谢再次做客我们节目。

To give us an inside look, not just at the hurdles with the Mars plan, but the hurdles that are facing optimists at large, we've got Theo Wade here, our Elon Musk reporter. Thank you so much, Theo, for being here. It's great to have you again.

很高兴回来。

Good to be back.

让我们聊聊人形机器人。特斯拉下月即将召开股东大会，相信大家都迫切想知道埃隆关于Optimus计划的新动态。不过我们得先从火星计划说起。

Let us talk about humanoids. Okay. So, I mean, Tesla has their shareholder meeting coming up next month. I think everyone is very eager to find out what new details we get about Elon's plan for Optimus. We gotta start with Mars, though.

我是说他想把Optimus送到火星。我不确定SpaceX要去火星吗？有这个计划吗？

I mean so he wants to send the Optimus to Mars. I didn't is SpaceX is going to Mars? There's a plan for that?

SpaceX曾表示他们将在2026年底前往火星，2027年初登陆，但这很可能会推迟。他们一直在不断调整这个时间节点。所以可能不会实现，但是

SpaceX has said they're going to Mars in late twenty twenty six to land in early twenty twenty seven, but that's probably gonna get pushed back. They keep they keep kind of moving the deadline there. So it could not happen, but

好的。

Okay.

你去SpaceX官网看，他们仍然说计划在进行中。

You go to the SpaceX website, they still say it's happening.

好的。那么这里的计划是什么，用SpaceX把Optimus送到火星？

Okay. And and so what is the plan here to send Optimus to Mars on the SpaceX?

他们目前就只透露了这些。埃隆曾描述这是由Optimus执行的载人任务。所以，你知道，可能Optimus走出飞船后就立刻摔倒，严格来说这仍然算实现了他所说的。所以非常不明确。

That's literally all that they've said. Know, Elon has described it as a mission crewed by Optimus. So, you know, it could be that Optimus walks out of the spaceship and then immediately falls over, and, technically, that would still, you know, fulfill what he has said will happen. So very unclear.

非常不明确。好吧。那么先把火星的事放一边。我是说，埃隆的计划，你在报道里提到过，曾有在特定时间线上生产数千台Optimus机器人的计划。

Very unclear. Okay. All right. So let's put the Mars thing aside for a second. I mean, Elon's plan, you go through it in the story, there have been plans to produce thousands of Optimus robots on certain timelines.

我们已经简化了一些内容。Optimus目前面临哪些挑战，这与他对特斯拉长期收入占比的宏伟计划有何矛盾？

We've cut that down a bit. What are the challenges that Optimus is facing right now, and how does that contradict his grand plans for what account of revenue, for example, is going to account for Tesla in the long run?

是的。长期时间线是这样的：埃隆提出了一份新的薪酬方案，要求股东批准，其中包含多项产品目标，包括特斯拉在未来十年内部署100万台Optimus机器人。显然，这是个非常长远的目标。短期来看，埃隆在春季公开表示他们希望今年能生产5000台机器人。嗯。

Yeah. So the the long term timeline here is Elon has this new compensation package that he's asking shareholders to approve that requires, among a bunch of different product product, goals, Tesla to deploy 1,000,000 Optimus robots over the next ten years. They're obviously that's, you know, a very long term goal. In in the near term, they wanted to build 5,000 robots this year, is what Elon publicly said in the spring. Mhmm.

但这并未实现。据我们了解，主要问题集中在手部设计上。

But that is not happening. We understand that there are a bunch of issues primarily with the hand.

手部问题。没错，我们在节目里讨论过这个。

The hands. Right. We've we've talked about the hands on this show.

手部结构极其复杂。这些机械手令人惊叹——你会更珍惜自己的双手了，它们运作时需要处理各种精妙细节。但根本上，完善手部功能耗费的时间远超预期，因此他们决定推迟量产，花更多时间优化Optimus。

They're very complicated. The hands, they're amazing. Appreciate your hands more. There's so much crazy stuff that goes into moving them. But, basically, this this goal of, you know, getting the hands perfected has has taken a lot longer than they expected it would, and so they decided to push out production and spend more time refining Optimist before building thousands of them.

明白了。你在报道这个故事时还发现了什么？每个重大报道总会引发关于企业未来的新问题。埃隆对这个计划押注如此之大，你采访后产生了哪些疑问？在我看来，这关乎计划的现实可行性。

Right. Tell me, what would you know, as you were reporting this story, again, every every great story comes with more questions about the future of these businesses. Elon has put so much stock into this plan. I mean, what kind of questions did you come out here thinking? Because in my mind, it's sort of the reality of this plan.

对吧？但投资者们也在思考什么？毕竟这和他的薪酬方案也有些关联，不是吗？

Right? But it's also what are investors thinking about? I mean, this is also tied to his his pay package a bit. Right?

是的。所以，你知道，这是包含在他的薪酬方案中的，与机器人出租车、车辆销售、盈利能力及市值等其他事项并列。里面有一系列目标，但Optimus是其中最重要的之一。我认为，当你考虑特斯拉投资者时，可以大致将他们分为两类：一类是狂热粉丝，他们对此非常热衷。Optimus已经公开演示过，人们对此趋之若鹜，你甚至可以去洛杉矶的特斯拉餐厅，让那里的Optimus为你服务。

Yeah. So, you know, it's it's in his pay package alongside other stuff like robo taxi and vehicle sales and profitability and market cap. Like, there there's a bunch of of goals in there, but Optimus is one of the biggest ones. You know, I think that when you think about Tesla investors, you have to kind of put them in two categories, and and one is the fanboys who are loving it. You know, they've had demos of Optimus, you know, in public that people fawn over, and you can go to the Tesla diner in LA and have the Optimus that's there serve you

我不知道那些人是谁。你去过那里吗？

I didn't know those are the guys. Have you been have you been there?

爆米花。我没去过。我得尽快报销一次去那里的旅行。好吧。

Popcorn. I have not. I have not. I need to expense a trip there soon. Okay.

好主意。抱歉打断一下。但特斯拉投资者的另一面显然是那些更传统的投资者，他们关心盈利能力和收入。对他们来说，最重要的考量仍然是核心的电动汽车业务，而Optimus尽管马斯克经常提及，却更像是一个次要项目。

Good idea. Sorry to interrupt. But the, you know, the the other the other aspect of of Tesla investors is obviously kind of traditional investors that care about things like profitability and and revenue. And for them, the biggest considerations are still kind of by far the core electric vehicle business, and Optimus is a bit of a a bit of a sideshow despite, how much Elon talks about it.

明白了。Theo，这是个有趣的故事。我们可能忽略了一个细节，但将Optimus送上火星的想法，如果我理解正确的话，是不是意味着需要给机器人穿上宇航服？最终会是这样的吗？

Got it. Well, Theo, it was an interesting story. I can't know, we glossed over this one detail, but, you know, the idea here with sending Optimus to Mars is that, correct me if I'm wrong, you would have to put a robot in an astronaut's suit. Is is that what this is gonna end up being?

至少目前版本的理解是这样。Optimus设计用于地球上的室内使用，而火星是一个尘土飞扬的星球，平均温度约为零下80华氏度。环境截然不同，因此设计上必须做出相当大的调整才能让它在那里发挥作用。

That's my understanding of it, at least if you were trying to send the current version. So Okay. You know, this thing is designed for indoor use on planet Earth, and Mars is a dusty planet where the average temperature is, like, negative 80 degrees Fahrenheit. Right. So it's a very different environment, and, you know, there there would have to be elements of the design that that are quite different to make it do anything there.

没错。Theo，非常感谢你今天做客节目。我们非常感激你带来的关于马斯克火星雄心最新进展的更新。期待随着故事发展，能更多地邀请你分享。这位是The Information的特约记者Theo Waite，专注于报道埃隆·马斯克的相关新闻。

Right. Well, Theo, thank you so much for coming on. We really appreciate the updates on Musk's moonshot bets to Mars. We look forward to having you on more as we hear more about how the story develops. That is Theo Waite, our Elon Musk reporter here at The Information.

我们都看到了消费者健康科技和长寿领域如何在科技界掀起热潮。WHOOP是这一趋势中的核心企业之一。上周，该公司推出了一款名为Advanced Labs的新产品，帮助会员解读血液检测结果并预约检测服务。我想请出Alex Manoni，他在WHOOP负责领导该产品的推出团队。Alex，欢迎来到TI TV。

Well, we have all seen how consumer health tech and longevity has become a big craze across the tech world. WHOOP is one company that has become central to that story. And last week, the company launched a new product called Advanced Labs that helps members make sense of blood test results and also book blood tests. I want to bring on Alex Manoni, who led the team responsible for rolling out that product at WHOOP. Alex, welcome to TI TV.

很高兴你能来。

It's great to have you.

Akash，很荣幸来到这里。非常感谢你的邀请。

Akash, it's great to be here. Thanks so much for having me.

请先为我们介绍一下Advanced Labs是什么，然后我们再 broadly 讨论业务发展方向。

So tell us about what Advanced Labs is, and then we'll get into sort of what the direction of the business is going broadly.

当然。这是一款令人兴奋的新产品。正如你所说，我们上周刚刚推出。值得高兴的是，我们在五月份发布新款硬件和众多软件功能时，就预告过这个产品。

Sure. Yeah. It's a it's a new, exciting product. Like you said, we launched it last week. What's been great is, you know, we announced this back in May when we had our big product launch of our new hardware and and a lot of new software features.

整个夏天，我们看到了候补名单上的巨大需求，上周二正式发布时非常激动。目前我们正在逐步开放名额，让候补用户

From that, over the course of the summer, we've seen incredible demand on our waitlist, and we're really excited to actually release it on Tuesday last week. So we've been live now pulling people off the waitlist for the

最后 嗯。

last Mhmm.

从试用天数、转化率和增长数据来看，反馈确实非常积极。这项服务主要包含两大核心功能：首先，所有会员都能免费上传过往的实验室检测报告。我们会将这些数据导入系统，并与我们创建的指标面板进行比对，让会员能直观看到自身生物标志物的长期变化趋势。

Days, and conversion and uptick has been really, really positive. In terms of the offering itself, there's two primary components. One is all of our members have the ability for free to upload any past lab tests that they've gotten. We'll ingest that into our system, map it against the panel that we've created. It allows our members to see how their biomarkers have trended over time.

会员还可以与我们的健康教练互动，通过WHOOP数据与血液标志物的关联分析获得深度洞察。另一核心是实际检测服务——正如您提到的，我们与Quest诊断合作，精心设计了一套包含65+项生物标志物的临床级综合检测面板。多年来WHOOP始终致力于帮助用户理解日常行为（如睡眠、运动表现、恢复状态）与健康的关系，而这项服务将带来质的飞跃。

They can interact with our coach to really get some really great insights on how their WHOOP data looks and is impacted by those blood markers alongside of it. The other piece of it is the actual test itself. So like you had mentioned, we partnered with Quest. We've assembled a really comprehensive and clinically rigorous panel of 65 plus biomarkers. And the idea is really, for years here at WHOOP, we've been able to give people some really rich insights about the behaviors they engage with on a day to day basis, and how that it's their sleep, and their performance, and their recovery.

这标志着我们进入了健康监测的新阶段：通过洞察体内生物系统的运作机制，揭示这些年来我们持续追踪的行为数据背后的生理学原理。

This is that next step in the evolution. This is really about understanding what's happening inside of your body, what's happening with those biological systems, and how that impacts those same behaviors that we've been measuring for years now. Right.

请问这种血液检测与单纯把检测结果上传给ChatGPT分析，或者去本地诊所做常规检查相比，有什么独特价值？确实存在几个关键差异——

And tell me, what is it that they would get from this blood test that they wouldn't get from just, say, uploading their blood test results to ChatGPT, or even just going to the local clinic and getting it done? Yeah, there's kind of a couple

首先，传统年度体检通常只检测10-20项指标，且主要基于医生观察到的症状。我们的检测范围更广，涵盖更多影响整体健康的关键指标，包括心脏健康、激素水平、遗传特征、认知功能等维度，能全面反映身体状况——这些都是常规体检无法提供的。

of big important differences here. So one is, if you were to go to sort of a traditional physician's visit or annual physical, oftentimes the panels that you get there are restrictive, sometimes in the order of 10 to 20 biomarkers, and a lot of those are based on different indications that your doctor might observe. What we do is we test a lot more than that. A lot more that goes into your overall health and wellness and understanding of what's happening in your body that you would typically not get at your annual physical. So we wanted to make sure that this initial panel really speaks to the comprehensive nature of everything that's happening in your body, from your heart health to your hormonal health to your genetic status, cognitive performance.

这正是本项检测服务的核心竞争力所在。您刚才提出了一个很好的问题：当人们已经可以...

And so that's really where this test starts to come alive and differentiate itself from others in the market. Now, asked a really good question, which is, what's the

用ChatGPT分析报告？确实现在很多人都在这么做。

ChatGPT, ChatGPT. I mean, people are doing it. People are doing it.

每个人都在这么做。值得称赞的是，ChatGPT在帮助人们理解像生物标志物与日常行为这类复杂关联方面做得非常好。而我们在两个重要方面将这一点提升到了新高度。其一，类似地，我们系统中有一个AI驱动的WHOOP教练功能，它构建于我们的WHOOP数据之上。因此能够真正纵览你多年积累的WHOOP历史数据——对于那些长期会员来说，希望他们能

Everyone's doing it. And to their credit, ChatGPT does a really good job at helping people understand really complex associations like biomarkers and daily behaviors. We sort of take that to the next level in two important ways. One, similarly, we have in our system our WHOOP Coach that's AI driven, and it is built on top of our WHOOP data. So the ability to actually look across your historical WHOOP data years and years and years, hopefully, for members that have been with us for

对。一个

Right. A

然后它基本上将两个数据集连接起来。

then it basically attach attach the two data sets.

接着

And then

将两个数据集连接起来。没错。

attach the two data sets. Right.

另一个关键部分是

The other piece of this

当你通过我们订购实验室检测时，会有一名持证临床医生审查所有生物标志物数据，他们经过专门培训能同步解读WHOOP数据。因此他们会全面分析你的所有生物标志物和WHOOP历史数据，提炼出极具价值的深度洞察，然后为你关联个性化的建议行动方案，让你能针对需要改进的领域采取实际措施。同时思考有哪些当前可能忽略的事项。过去几个月我们进行了大量测试，发现每个参与检测的人——无论体检报告或WHOOP数据显示他们多么年轻健康——拿到血液检测结果后都会发现全新的认知盲点。这些层面的洞察确实令人着迷。

is when you order a lab test through us, you get a licensed clinician who's reviewing all of those biomarkers, and they've been trained alongside to to interpret WHOOP data as well. So they're going through all of your biomarkers, all of your historic WHOOP data, and pulling out some really rich insights, and then associated personalized recommended actions for you to actually take action on the areas for improvement that you need. And also think about what are some of the things that I should be doing that I'm maybe not today. I'd say one really interesting thing, we've done a lot of testing over the last few months, and for everybody who's gone through testing, despite how young and healthy they may be on paper, or even with their WHOOP data, they're getting their blood work back, and they're learning something completely new that they an idea about. And so those level of insights have been really, really fascinating to see.

不过，我想问你的一个更广泛的问题是，对于那些不了解WHOOP的人来说，它是一款腕带。你把它戴在手腕上，关键在于仅通过佩戴就能获取大量数据。我的意思是，这是公司涉足侵入性领域的第一步，对吧？这些数据无法仅从手腕本身获得。那么，我们是否已经达到了非侵入性测试所能获取的极限？

One of the broader questions I wanted to ask you, though, is, WHOOP, for those who don't know it, right, it's a wristband. You wear it on your wrist, and the whole point is you get a lot of data just from having it on your wrist. I mean, this is the first step for the company to sort of venture into something that is invasive, right? It's something that you can't just get from the wrist itself. And so are we sort of at the limit of what we can get from non invasive tests?

我是说，我们是否... 对，这就是问题所在。

I mean, do we Yeah, that's the question.

是的，我认为还没有。我更倾向于将其视为我们在手腕上可收集数据的扩展。显然，如你所说，这是侵入性的。它需要去实验室诊所抽血，但你能从中获得的洞察水平...

Yeah, I would say not yet. I think more about this as an expansion of what we can collect on the wrist. Obviously, like you said, this is invasive. It involves going to a lab clinic and getting blood drawn, but the level of insight that you get

从

from

这些与我们在手腕上看到的数据相比相形见绌。话虽如此，我们一直在研究下一步能做什么以及能从手腕上测量什么，我认为仍有一整套非侵入性特征和洞察可以从手腕上获取。

that pales in comparison to just what we see on the wrist. That being said, we're constantly working on what's coming next and what we can measure from the wrist, and I'd say there's still an entire portfolio of features and insights that we can pull from the wrist that are non invasive in nature.

比如什么？比如什么？接下来会有什么？

Like what? Like what? What's coming?

嗯，我不会具体透露我们的路线图，但你可以关注整个生态系统。我认为一个很好的例子是连续血糖监测仪（CGMs），对吧？人们正在研究其对健康的影响。

Well, I won't say exactly what's coming on our roadmap, but you can look out into the ecosystem. I think a good example is CGMs, right? People are looking into the wellness impact.

但我曾询问过威尔，他是公司的CEO，我为他做过人物专访，问及他对CGM的看法。他对此似乎并不太热衷。实际上，当

But I had asked Will about, Will is the CEO of the company, but I did a profile on him, I asked him about CGM. He didn't seem too ecstatic about that. Actually, when

你仔细想想，纵观整个健康信息领域的产品组合，一方面，我们有手腕上的设备提供24/7的实时数据，反映行为如何影响健康；另一端则是上周刚推出的血液检测服务，其数据采集频率较低——可能是每三个月、六个月或十二个月一次。介于两者之间的是一系列重要数据，比如CGM数据，它比抽血侵入性小，但又不如手腕设备那样高频实时。因此，像WHOOP这样的公司要构建的生态系统，正是要填补这些在侵入性、非侵入性和数据频率之间的空白，我们致力于尽可能多地整合这些数据，为会员提供

you think about it, you look at the portfolio of just health information generally, and on the one hand, you have what we have on the wrist, 20 fourseven data, and that real time nature of what's happening, how my behavior is impacting that. On the other end of the spectrum is what we just introduced last week with blood work, where it's less frequent in terms of cadence with which people are getting those biomarkers and those data points. So you could think, depending on the individual, every three months, every six months, every twelve months. There is a whole set of important data that exists on the in between, and that's things like CGM data, where it's less invasive than a blood test, but is not as frequent or real time as what we have on the wrist. And so as you think about sort of the ecosystem that a company like WHOOP could build, filling in all of those gaps across the cadence of invasive versus noninvasive frequency of the data points, we really want to dig into as many of those as possible, and aggregate them for our members to

全面的身体状况分析。太棒了。亚历克斯，公司推出的这款新产品非常出色，我看了很兴奋。当然，我得顺便提一下我写的一篇报道——大概是一年多前的WHOOP CEO威尔·艾哈迈德的人物特写，我们会在节目备注里放上链接。

get a full picture of what's happening with their bodies. Great. Well, Alex, it was a great new product that the company launched. I was excited to see it, and of course, I do have to plug a story that I wrote, I think it was more than a year ago now that we're going to link in the show notes. It was my profile of Whoop CEO, Will Ahmed.

知道吗？就读读开头吧，因为我和威尔共度了一次惬意的泡澡时光，那篇文章很精彩。亚历克斯，下次我去办公室也得和你泡一次。非常感谢你带来这款令人振奋的新产品。

And you know what? Just read the intro because I took a nice bath with Will. It's a great read. And Alex, next time I come to the office, I'll have to take one with you as well. Thank you so much It's for coming on the a very exciting new product.

这位是负责WHOOP医疗保健产品团队的亚历克斯·马诺尼。好了，今天的节目就到这里。提醒大家我们每周一到周五太平洋时间上午10点（东部时间下午1点）准时开播。感谢本节目首席赞助商亚马逊云服务。

That is Alex Manoni, who runs the Healthcare Product Group at Whoop. Okay. Well, that does it for today's show. A reminder that we are on this stream Monday through Friday at 10AM Pacific, 1PM Eastern. I want to thank Amazon Web Services, who is our presenting sponsor for this production.

也感谢各位的收看，你们的支持对我们意义重大。我已经开始期待明天的节目了。那么下次见，感谢观看，再见！

And I want to thank you for tuning in. We really do appreciate your viewership. I'm already excited for our next show tomorrow. And so until then, thanks for tuning. Bye bye for now.