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如果你没听说过《权力的48条法则》这本书，那你可能真的与世隔绝了。
If you haven't heard of the book, The 48 Laws of Power, well, you might be living under a rock.
今天，我很荣幸能与本书作者罗伯特·格林本人对话。
Today, I am privileged to talk to the man himself, the author of The 48 Laws of Power, Robert Green.
罗伯特，非常感谢你能来。
Robert, thank you so much for coming.
杰斐逊，谢谢你的邀请。
Thank you for having me, Jefferson.
我很感激。
I appreciate it.
我非常期待这次对话，因为当我创作内容或演讲时，经常会有人过来问：'你读过《权力的48条法则》吗？'
This is a conversation I'm very much looking forward to because I your book is one that often when I'm I make content or I'm speaking, there will typically be somebody who comes up and says, oh, you have have you read the 48 laws of power?
我说：'读过'。
I said, yes.
我确实读过。
I I have.
我想讨论的是，听众们在本期节目中将会听到的是：我们能否运用权力，同时又能保持自身的正直？
And what I want to talk about and what the listeners are gonna get what you're gonna get in this episode is we're going to talk on can you use power, and can you also maintain your own integrity?
因为很多时候，人们觉得这两者在某种程度上是冲突的，他们听到的是操纵。
What because a lot of the times, people find those to be conflicting in some way of they they hear manipulation.
他们听不到任何能改善生活的指导性建议。
They don't hear anything that is prescriptive, prescriptive that can improve their life.
罗伯特，你会如何定义权力？
Robert, how would you define power?
权力对你而言意味着什么？
What does what does power mean to you?
嗯，权力是一种工具。
Well, power is a tool.
它完全中立。
It's totally neutral.
就像锤子，你可以用它来建造房屋，也可以用它敲击别人的脑袋致其死亡。
Like a hammer, you can use it to build a house, or you could clobber someone over the head and kill them with it.
所以权力本质上只是一种工具。
So power is simply a tool.
它是中性的。
It's neutral.
既不好也不坏。
It is neither good nor bad.
可以用来作恶。
It can be used for evil.
也可以用来行大善。
It could be used for great good.
但权力本质上是对即时环境、对生活中发生事件的一种掌控感。
But power is a sense of having control over the immediate environment, over events that are occurring in your life.
反过来从负面角度看，如果你在日常生活中感觉自己无力影响子女、配偶、伴侣、同事、上司或公司其他人，这种感觉会非常非常痛苦。
So to use this, to flip it around to the negative, if you sense in your daily life that you have no ability to influence your children, your spouse, your partner, the colleagues at work, your boss, the people in your company, it's a miserable, miserable feeling.
这就是无权无势的状态。
You have no power.
你毫无掌控力。
You have no control.
你毫无影响力。
You have no influence.
你无法让人听从你的指令，你告诉人们做什么，他们却不听你的。
You can't tell people to do that you tell people to do something and they don't listen to you.
对吧？
Right?
或者他们做出阻碍你前进的事，而你却无法让他们停止这种行为。
Or they do things to you that that kind of block your path, and you have no way of of getting them to stop this.
这种无力感是人类难以长期忍受的。
That feeling of powerlessness is is something that human beings cannot endure very well.
如果你长期感到无力，心理上某些东西就会开始扭曲。
And if you feel powerless for very long, you're gonna something's gonna warp inside of you psychologically.
你会转向内心封闭。
You're gonna turn inward.
你会变得愤恨不平。
You're gonna become resentful.
你会变得愤怒。
You're gonna become angry.
愤怒的情绪会在你内心不断积聚，越来越深，越来越深。
You're gonna have pools of anger, you know, developing inside of you deeper and deeper and deeper.
你将无法控制自己。
And you're not gonna have control over yourself.
因此，力量首先是对自我的掌控，控制你的情绪，这样你就不会总是被动反应和发怒，从而保持一定的超然态度。
So power is the sense first the first sense of control is over yourself, over your emotions so that you're not always reacting and getting angry so that you have a little bit of detachment.
所以当遇到需要影响他人的情况时，比如你的孩子、配偶、同事或上司，你能够后退半步、一步甚至几步，思考并行动：究竟什么才能真正推动那个人朝着我希望的方向前进？
So when it comes to those situations where you need to move or influence people like your children, your spouse, your colleagues, your boss, you're able to step back a half step, a full step, couple steps, and think and go, what is it that will actually move that person in the direction that I want?
我该如何有效地影响他们，让他们不恨我、不怨恨我，甚至可能在不知不觉中做出符合我利益的事，或者让利益以某种方式达成一致？
How can I actually influence them effectively so they don't hate me, so they don't resent me, so that they actually do what is in my interest without maybe even realizing it with or that the interests align in some way?
这就是我所理解的力量。
So that is power for me.
对吧？
Right?
它始于你自己。
It begins with yourself.
它始于对你所经历事件的超然态度。
It begins with a sense of detachment from the events happening to you.
这是在生活中每个情境下进行策略思考和规划的能力。
It's the ability to strategize and think in each situation in life.
这一步将让我对事件获得些许掌控。
This is a move that will gain me a little degree of control over events.
你永远不可能拥有完全的掌控。
You can never ever have complete control.
生活充满变数。
Life happens.
世事难料。
Things happen.
疫情会发生。
Pandemics happen.
黑天鹅事件会发生。
Black swans happen.
你无法掌控一切。
You can't control everything.
对吧？
Right?
但那一丁点的掌控余地，已足以让你的人生航程稍微顺畅些。
But that little bit of margin of control is enough to kind of help you glide through life a little bit more smoothly.
当我思考权力时，我觉得你所说的正是它的完美定义。
When I think of power, I think what you said is a perfect definition of it.
这种能力，一个人控制或影响他人行为的能力，或许甚至包括影响自身。
The ability, one's ability to control or influence another's behavior, maybe including even their own.
你拥有这种个人力量。
You have the personal power.
你拥有关系权力，比如在夫妻或伴侣之间，谁可能对另一方更有影响力。
You have relational power, like who in the dynamic might have more influence over the other between husband, wife, or partner.
或许还存在政治权力，即构建和影响他人的能力，以及在社会层面制定和实施法律的能力。
And maybe there's political power, the ability to construct, influence others, the ability to write laws, implement laws, socially.
我发现，与我交谈的人们总是在寻求自我提升的力量，以及如何改善他们的生活。
And what I find, the people that I get to talk to are always looking for power of themselves and how they're going to improve their life.
而我教授的领域是沟通与语言的力量。
And where I teach is communication and the power of words.
这就是为什么我非常喜欢你们提出的几条专门针对沟通的法则，尤其是少说话这一条。
And this is why I really like, there's a number of the the laws that you have out that are specific to communication, like using less words, in particular.
你认为沟通与权力是如何交叉影响的？
How do you find that communication and power intersect?
它们显然完全交织在一起。
They're they're obviously completely intertwined.
不过，沟通必须具有策略性。
So, but communication has to be strategic.
明白吗？
Okay?
这就是当今世界很多人面临的问题。
And that's the problem that a lot of people have in this world.
他们认为只要开口说话，只要说出'这是我想要的，这是我需要的，请来帮我'，就是在沟通。
They think if they just talk, if they just say, this is what I want, this is what I need, please come and help me, that that's communicating.
你传达的只是你的不安和需求。
All you're communicating is your insecurity and your needs.
真正的沟通是有效的。
True communication is effective.
它是有策略的。
It's strategic.
因为人们天生就会抗拒帮助你或与你利益一致。
It hit other people are naturally resistant to helping you or to aligning themselves with your interest.
当今世界每个人都有各自的问题。
Everybody has their own problems in the world today.
我们都压力山大。
We are all stressed.
我们都工作得太辛苦了。
We're all working too hard.
我们永远觉得时间不够用。
We never have enough time.
对吧？
Right?
所以你对我说你想要什么。
So I you talk to me about what you want.
好吧。
Okay.
我其实有点心不在焉，你这种单方面输出让我有点烦躁。
I'm kinda half listening, but you're kind of irritating me because you're just spewing things from your side.
对吧？
Right?
真正的沟通就是我之前说的那样。
True communication is what I was saying before.
你要退后一步，设身处地为对方着想。
You take that step back, and you put yourself in the other person's shoes.
对吧？
Right?
你要跳出自我，因为你太自我中心了，没意识到你的话根本没人在听。
You get out of your own head because you're so self involved that you don't realize that your words are just landing nowhere.
你要跳出自我，明白我正在和另一个人打交道。
You get out of your head, you go, I'm dealing with another person.
他们不是我。
They are not me.
他们有自己的问题、自己的愿望、当下自己的困扰。
They have their own problems, their own wishes, their own issues right now in the present.
对吧？
Right?
那是什么？
What is that?
他们脑海里、他们的世界里正在发生什么？
What is it that is going on in their head, in their world?
有时你需要做些调查。
Sometimes you have to do some research.
有时你可能已经足够了解他们。
Sometimes you maybe you know them well enough.
也许你根本不了解他们，但你必须弄清楚。
Maybe you don't know them at all, but you have to figure that out.
这是个谜题。
It's a puzzle.
一旦你弄明白他们的立场（而非你的立场）——他们想要什么、需要什么，你就掌握了塑造话语的力量，能真正影响他们，诉诸他们的自身利益——这是权力法则中最强大的法则之一。
Once you figure out their side, not your side, what they want, what they need, Now you have some power to craft what you say to actually influence them, to appeal to their self interest, which is one of the laws of power, a very one of the most powerful laws of all.
对吧？
Right?
所以如果我说某些话试图施加影响时，我就像在棋盘上把他们朝我的方向移动。
So if I say something and I'm trying to influence, I'm trying to move them like on a chessboard in my direction.
对吧？
Right?
如果我说的话既符合他们的利益又对我有利，他们的眼睛就会亮起来。
If I say something that appeals to their self interest while it's also helping me, their eyes will light up.
他们所有的心理防线都会开始瓦解。
All those defenses that they have will start to go down.
因此，沟通除非具有策略性，否则毫无价值。
So communication is absolutely worthless unless it's strategic.
而永远少说为妙很重要，因为缺乏自制力的人自然会喋喋不休，就像言语腹泻一样。
And always say less than necessary is important because the natural tendency for a human being without self control is just to spew words, you know, just like verbal diarrhea.
这就是，你知道的，我的问题，我的生活。
This is, you know, my problems, my life.
这就是我目前的情况。
This is what's going on with me.
这就是我需要的，吧啦吧啦吧啦。
This is what I need, blah blah blah blah blah.
对吧？
Right?
闭嘴，少说多思考对方需要什么，并策略性地设计你的沟通方式。
Just shut up, Talk less and think more about what the other person needs and craft your communication strategically.
你知道，我最近写了一本书，很难不...我无法想象写书时不在其中融入自己的部分。
You know, I I wrote a book, recently, and it's hard not to I can't imagine writing a book and not having pieces of yourself in it.
当你写这本书时，你生活中发生了什么？
When you were writing this book, was what was coming up for you in your own life?
你只是在研究这些影响、控制和权力的要素吗？
Are you just studying, you know, the these elements of influence and control and power?
你是为自己而写，还是为他人而写？
Is it something that you were writing to yourself or to for other people?
这对你来说是从何而来的？
Where where did that where did that come up for you?
嗯，这源于两件事。
Well, it came from two things.
首先，是一种非常深刻的、想要帮助这个世界人们的渴望。
First of all, a very deep, desire to help people in this world.
我的书——我认为思考得非常、非常深入。
I don't my books, I think very, very deeply.
我现在正在写第八本书，所以《权力》并非我唯一的著作。
This I'm working on my eighth book now, so Power isn't my only book.
但我对我的读者考虑得非常、非常深入。
But I think very, very deeply of my audience.
对吧？
Right?
这是一种回归本质的沟通方式。
It's a form of communication to get back to that.
对吗？
Right?
我想要帮助人们。
And I wanna help people.
我想实实在在地帮助人们解决问题，而不仅仅是为了满足自我。
I wanna help people deal with their problems in a real way, not just to satisfy my own ego.
所以我必须考虑如何让我的话语真正融入你们的日常生活。
So I have to think about how my words can actually be absorbed into your daily life.
这是一方面的原因。
So that's one side.
另一方面，这本书源于许多痛苦。
The other side is the book came from a lot of pain.
对吧？
Right?
和大多数人一样，我初入社会时有些天真、有些单纯。
So I started entered life like most people, kind of naive, kind of innocent.
我并非天生就擅长权谋之道。
I wasn't a good player naturally, necessarily, at power.
对吧？
Right?
我犯过错。
I made mistakes.
我可能说得太多了。
I talked too much, probably.
我盖过了师父的风头。
I outshone the master.
对吧？
Right?
诸如此类的事情还有很多很多。
On and on and on.
我可以列出一长串我违反过的规矩。
I could go through the a a laundry list of the things that I violated.
而且我当时没意识到这个世界是讲政治的。
And I didn't realize that the world is political.
我曾以为进入职场后，重要的是要有成果、把事情做好、表现出色。
I thought when you enter the work world, what matters is having results, is getting things done, is doing things well.
但事实并非如此，我经历了太多太多痛苦的遭遇，尤其是在电影行业工作时。
But, no, I had many, many, many painful experiences, particularly working in the film world.
但正如我在许多采访中说过，我这辈子做过50多种不同的工作，超过50种，涉及各行各业。
But as I've said in many interviews, I've had 50 different jobs in my life, more than 50, in all different aspects.
在人生的每一条可能的小径上，我都曾有过一份工作。
In every little possible avenue of life, I've had a job.
我深受其苦，尤其痛苦于人们如此精于算计。
And I suffer deeply, and I suffer deeply from the sense of people are so political.
他们的自我意识渗透在每件事中。
Their egos are involved in everything.
你甚至能从他们与你擦肩而过的姿态中看出他们的自负。
You can see their egos as they walk past you.
对吧？
Right?
我注意到办公室里存在这些等级制度。
I would notice in the office that there was these hierarchies.
记得我曾为《滚石》杂志工作过一段时间，那里就有这种等级制度。
I worked remember, I worked for a while at the magazine Rolling Stone, and there were these hierarchies.
老板高高在上，你能看到他膨胀的自我在来回踱步。
There was the boss, and you could just see this massive ego walking back and forth.
而在他之下工作的所有小人物们也都带着各自的自我。
Then there were all the other smaller little people working right under him and their egos.
角落里的我，作为一个小小的文字编辑，也有自己微不足道的自我。
And there was little me in the corner as a copy editor, little tiny, tiny little ego.
但这才是在乎的。
But that's what mattered.
让一切运转的关键在于你给他留下多好的印象，如何与老板交谈，比如詹·温纳。
That's what made things run was how well you impressed him, how you talked to the boss, in this case, Jan Jan Wenner.
我觉得这很可笑，但这就是现实世界，你必须认真对待现实世界。
And I thought this this is silly, but this is the real world, and you have to take the real world seriously.
你必须在现实世界中取得成功。
You have to succeed in the real world.
这本书源于我自身错误带来的深切痛苦，也源于帮助他人的强烈愿望，因为我认为这是生活中许多抑郁和痛苦的根源。
So the book came from deep pools of pain from my own mistakes and from a deep desire to help other people because I feel it's the source of a lot of depression and misery in life.
你知道，你会说一些话或做一些事，以为自己在正确的轨道上。
You know, you say something or you do something thinking that you're on the right track.
这会对你有所帮助。
It's gonna help you.
转眼间，你却被解雇或遭到唾弃。
And the next thing you know, you're fired or you're devoted.
你不知道为什么。
You don't know why.
我感觉，你知道，我看到周围的人都遇到这些问题。
I felt you know, I I see people around me having these problems.
因此这本书有两条主线：帮助他人的深切愿望，以及对世界充满政治和自负的认知，明白错误代价高昂且痛苦——而我就犯过许多错误。
So those are the two strands of the book, a deep desire to help people and a realization that the world is political, full of egos, and that mistakes are very costly and painful, and I made plenty of them.
是啊。
Yeah.
嗯，你并不孤单。
Well, you're not alone.
我们我们都犯过很多错误。
We've all we've all made a lot of mistakes.
现在回顾起来，看到这本书的影响，我想特别谈谈你正在撰写并即将发布的那本书——对于那些还没读过或可能会说‘你知道吗？’的人
Looking back at it now and knowing the the impact of the book and I wanna I wanna talk about the book specifically that you're you're writing and gonna be releasing soon, is for those who haven't read it or those who might go, you know what?
听完这期节目后，我想重新拿起这本书。
Now that I've listened to this episode, I wanna pick it up again.
也许他们书架上就有这本书。
Maybe they have it on their shelf.
我有一阵子没看它了。
I haven't looked at it in a while.
你是如何发现——尤其是作为作者本人——这个话题也能具有很好的疗愈效果？
How do you find, and especially being the one that wrote it, that this topic can also be very healing?
我收到很多读者的邮件，说这本书确实帮助了他们。
I get a lot of emails from people that, you know, it's helped them.
这本书改变了他们的人生，甚至有人因此创业。
It's turned their life around, or they started a business because of the book.
当然，这些都是个案，我知道肯定也有很多人受到伤害，成为被操纵的一方。
Of course, there you know, it's anecdotal, so I'm sure there's a lot of stories out there of people who've been hurt, who've been on the other side of the manipulation.
我理解这种情况。
I understand that.
但真正具有治愈和解放力量的，是终于在你脑海中点亮那盏小灯——原来世界是这样运作的。
But what's healing and liberating is to finally have that little light turned on inside of your brain that this is how the world works.
我过去完全没有意识到这点。
I didn't realize that.
我以为只要做真实的自己就够了。
I thought what mattered was just being myself.
我以为只要做好本职工作，说自己想说的话，穿自己喜欢的衣服，保持真我就足够了。
I thought that I I could just do my job, say the things that I like, dress the way that I like to dress, just be myself, and it was enough.
而且，不，我正在为此受苦。
And, no, I'm suffering from it.
只是看着你脑中那个小开关突然打开，意识到游戏规则是不同的。
And just seeing that little switch go on in your brain that, no, the game is different.
游戏的玩法不一样。
It's played differently.
这个游戏是有规则的。
There are rules to this game.
你不能就这样走进来玩扑克，然后随心所欲。
You can't just come in and play poker and just do whatever you want.
扑克有规则。
There are rules for poker.
象棋也有规则。
There are rules for chess.
你却不知道这些规则。
You don't know the rules.
你打得糟糕透顶，正在遭受煎熬。
You're just playing terribly, and you're suffering.
内心那一点点转变，或许我正在进入这场游戏。
And just that little bit of switch inside going, maybe I'm entering this game.
或许我的角度完全错了。
Maybe I'm from the wrong angle.
可能我太自私自利，太过自我中心。
Maybe I'm being too selfish, egotistical.
我过于自我沉溺，没有充分考虑游戏中的其他玩家。
I'm too self absorbed, and I'm not thinking enough about the players in this game.
你视角的微小转变，看待方式的改变，能带来深刻的疗愈与启迪，因为这并非我们与生俱来的能力。
That little switch of your perspective, of how you look at it, can be deeply healing and enlightening because it's not natural to us.
正如我所说，这对我而言也非自然习得。
As I said, it wasn't natural to me.
所以从这个意义上说，这正是帮助了许多人的关键所在。
So I think in that sense, that's what has helped a lot of people.
许多像我这样的人，初入职场时都带着几分天真和单纯。
A lot of people who, like myself, enter the work world a little bit innocent and a little bit on the naive side.
本节目由
This episode was brought to
Cozy Earth为您呈现。
you by Cozy Earth.
我喜欢Cozy Earth的原因之一就是他们的产品实在太好了。说到柔软舒适的穿着——无论是连帽衫、运动衫还是运动裤（这些我现在经常穿，毕竟德州气温已经跌破60华氏度，对我们来说简直冷得要命）——
One of the reasons I love Cozy Earth is because their products are just that dang good When it comes to anything that I want to wear that is soft and comfortable, I'm talking about hoodies, sweatshirts, sweatpants, which I am wearing a lot of right now, now that in Texas it is less than 60 degrees, which means it's freezing here.
从床单到浴巾，所有高品质产品都来自Cozy Earth。我之所以热衷推荐他们，是因为我自己就是他们的忠实用户。
From our bed sheets to our bath towels to everything that is quality product, that's Cozy Earth, and I love talking about them because I use their stuff all the time.
访问cozyearth.com/jefferson，使用优惠码Jefferson即可享受6折优惠。
Go to cozyearth.com/jefferson, use the code Jefferson, and get 40% off.
Cozyearth.com/jefferson。
Cozyearth.com/jefferson.
使用优惠码jefferson最高可享6折优惠。
Get the code jefferson for up to 40% off.
如果你想在节日期间选购礼物，一定要去看看Cozy Earth。
If you're looking for anything in the holidays, you need to go check out Cozy Earth.
你绝不会失望，而且你会发现一些让你惊呼'哦，我需要这个，我要给别人买，但绝对也得给自己来一份'的好物。
You will not be disappointed, and you will find something that you go, oh, I need this, and I need to get it for somebody else, but I definitely need it for myself.
现在让我们回到节目。
And now back to the episode.
如何判断某人是否在试图操控你？
How can you tell if somebody is trying to manipulate you?
嗯，有时候如果人们很聪明，你是不会意识到的。
Well, sometimes if people are clever, you're not gonna realize it.
就像，如果有人非常擅长操纵游戏，如果他们精通《权力的48条法则》，如果他们知道如何诱惑你，如何包装自己的言辞，让你觉得他们简直棒极了，他们是在为你着想——如果他们真的精于此道，等你意识到时为时已晚。
Like, if people are really good at the manipulation game, if they know the 48 laws of power, if they know how to seduce you, how to wrap their their words and and make you seem like they're they're just wonderful, that they're out for your best interest, if they're really good at it, you won't realize it until it's too late.
所以在我写的书里——我想是上一本《人性法则》——我告诉人们的是：你需要在这些人进入你生活之前，或者在你开始听信他们之前就识别出这些人。
And so in my book, one of my think my last book, The Laws of Human Nature, what I what I tell people is you need to identify these people before they enter your life or before you start listening to them.
你需要在操纵型人格开始魅惑你之前，在他们开始用戏剧性故事裹挟你之前，就具备识别这类人的能力。
You need to be able to identify the manipulative types before they start charming you, before they start enchanting you, before they start wrapping you up in their dramas.
因为如果你一旦落入那个陷阱，可能就为时已晚了。
Because if you if you don't if you fall into that trap, it's gonna probably be too late.
大多数人并不是那么高明的操纵者。
Most people aren't such good manipulators.
你是能感觉到的。
And you you can sense it.
对吧？
Right?
他们非常被动攻击性。
They're very passive aggressive.
他们说的话看似在为你考虑，但字里行间都别有用心。
They say things that they want to get from you, but there's enough there's a subtext involved.
对吧？
Right?
很多拙劣的操纵者，你是能察觉到的。
And a lot of the bad manipulators, you can feel it.
你有一种直觉。
You have an intuitive sense.
你能从他们的肢体语言、说话方式中察觉到一些不真诚的东西。
You can understand that you something in their body language, something in how they speak, it doesn't seem sincere.
但关键是要能够感知人的性格，能够识别出社会上存在的各种类型的人。
But the main thing is to under is to be able to sense people's character, to be able to identify the types of people out there.
就像我说的，有些人出于某种原因非常擅长操纵游戏。
So as I said, there's some people out there who are brilliant at the manipulation game what for whatever reason.
不一定是因为他们读过我的书，而是因为这存在于他们的DNA里。
Not because maybe necessarily they read my book, but because it's in their DNA.
他们天生就擅长这个。
They're just naturally good at it.
对吧？
Right?
那些非常政治化的人。
People who are very political.
明白吗？
Okay?
所以你的任务是能够看穿这些人。
So your task is to be able to see through these people.
因为很多人面临的问题是——我得稍微绕个弯子说——
Because the problem that a lot of people have see, I'm I have to kind of circle around here a little bit.
我在《权力的48条法则》中试图表达的是，这是一场表象的游戏。
The thing that I I try to say in the 48 laws of power is that it's a game of appearances.
在这场权力游戏中，表象至关重要——你如何展示自己，人们如何看待你。要知道，表现得像个国王才会被当作国王对待。
Appearances matter so much in this power game, how you present yourself, how people see you, you know, act like a king to be treated like a king.
对吧？
Right?
重塑自我。
Recreate yourself.
人们正是通过你的外在表现来评判你。
Your appearances is what people are judging you by.
对吧？
Right?
所以与此同时，你必须掌控自己的外在形象，让人看到你的强大，但你必须像激光一样穿透他人的面具，看穿他们玩的把戏，看透他们试图营造的表象。
So at the same time, you have to control your appearances so people see you as powerful, but you have to see like a laser through other people's masks, through other people's games that they're playing, through the appearances they're trying to create.
那些高明的操纵者，他们都有迹可循。
So the great manipulators out there, right, they have signs.
他们并非完美无缺。
They're not perfect.
他们会留下蛛丝马迹，细小的线索会暴露出他们试图对你玩的这类把戏。
They give little clues, little crumbs that reveal that they're trying to play this kind of game on you.
这就是为什么我写了《人性法则》这本书，为你提供识别那些自恋狂的工具——因为大多数操控大师都是有毒的自恋者，你必须在他们进入你生活之前识别出来。
And that's why I wrote the laws of human nature where I give you tools for identifying the great narcissists out there because most of the master manipulators are toxic narcissists, and you have to be able to identify them before they enter your life.
如何识别充满嫉妒心的人。
How to identify people who are full of envy.
这类人非常危险。
They are a very dangerous type.
他们会假装成你最好的朋友，实则因嫉妒而伤害你、破坏你。
They'll become your best friend in order to hurt you, to sabotage you because they feel envious.
你必须在他们进入你的生活之前就识别出这类人，如此类推。
You have to identify them before they get into your life, on and on and on down the line.
这大概就是我的建议。
So that's sort of my advice.
如何识别操纵者并没有简单的答案。
There's no simple answer how to identify a manipulator.
这体现在他们的性格中。
It's in their character.
这体现在他们的肢体语言里。
It's in their body language.
他们会流露出细微的迹象，你必须能看穿人们的伪装，不要总是将表象当作现实。
It's the little signs that they give out, and you have to be able to see through people's masks and not always take appearances for reality.
那些
The people who
会读这本书，假设他们已经读过了
would read this book and let's say they've they've read it.
他们真正理解了书的内容
They really understand it.
他们正在付诸实践，而且正如我们所定义的，他们是希望在生活中有更多权力的人，无论出于善意还是恶意
They're putting it into practice, and they're somebody who wants to have, as we've defined, more power in their life, whether it's for good or whether it's for bad.
通过这种方式，他们将能够作为一个动词，为了自己的目的去操控他人，无论出于善意还是恶意
And through that, they're gonna be able to, as a verb, manipulate people for good or for bad to their purpose.
你觉得读这本书的人是怀着恶意还是善意？
Do you find that the people who read this book are doing it with ill intent or for good intent?
就是...你...我知道你这些年来肯定收到了很多关于这本书的反馈
Like, you you I know you've heard you have to have had a lot of feedback from this book over the last many years.
是的
Yeah.
我很好奇你能否谈谈这个
And I'm curious if you'd speak to that.
不过，让我澄清一点，并非所有法则都关乎操控。
Well, let me clear up one thing, though, that not all of the laws are about manipulation.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Right.
我想这取决于你如何定义操控。
I mean, I guess it's how you define manipulation.
比如其中一条法则'制造引人注目的场面'，就是要创造能吸引大量关注的事物——这正是生活和社交媒体的常态。
But creating compelling spectacles, one of the laws, is creating something that draws a lot of attention, right, which is what a lot of life and social media involves.
你可以说这在某种程度上是操控，但它也是在取悦大众，为世界增添乐趣，创造吸引眼球的景象。
And you can say, in some ways, it's manipulation, but it's also just trying to please people, just trying to bring pleasure into the world, just trying to create a spectacle that attracts attention.
我并不认为书中每条法则都与操控有关。
I don't necessarily see every law in there about manipulation.
但回到你的问题，我之前也说过这个观点。
But to get to your point, you know, I've said this before.
那些在权力游戏中真正卑鄙邪恶的人确实存在。
The people who are really, really nasty and evil at the game of power and they're out there out there.
我估计大概有3%到5%的人口会是那样。
I I would I would say maybe three to 5% of the population would be like that.
也许我高估了这个数字。
Maybe I'm overestimating the number.
你其实并不需要像《权力的48条法则》这样的书。
You don't really need a book like the 48 loss of power.
对吧？
Right?
他们从很小的时候就开始学习这个了。
They've been learning this from a very early age.
他们可能有着不幸的童年。
They probably had troubled childhoods.
我不想过多探讨其中的心理学原因，但他们在童年时期确实受过伤害。
I don't wanna get too deep into the psychology of that, but they've been wounded in their childhood.
对吧？
Right?
他们从六七岁或八岁就开始学习这些。
And they learn from the age of six or seven or eight.
这就是操控人的方法。
This is how you get people.
这就是吊人胃口的手段。
This is how you string people along.
这就是博取关注的方式。
This is how you get attention.
这就是制造戏剧性的方法。
This is how you be dramatic.
这就是该说的话术。
This is what you say.
这就是让父母关注我的方法。
This is how you get mommy and daddy to pay attention to me.
这就是你让老师喜欢我的方法。
This is how, you know, you get the teacher to like me.
他们从小就开始一步步学习这些。
They've learned this step by step at an early age.
等到2022年进入职场时，他们在高中就已经这么做了。
By the time they enter the work world in '22, they've been dealing doing this in high school.
他们在大学或其他地方也一直这么做。
They've been doing that at college or wherever.
他们在这方面越来越得心应手。
They're getting better and better at it.
然后这本《权力的48条法则》出现了。
Then this book comes along, the 48 laws of power.
其实他们根本不需要读这本书。
Well, they don't need to read that.
就算读了，也只是印证了他们凭直觉已经理解的东西。
If they read it, it's just gonna confirm the things that they've kind of intuitively understood.
我不否认会有一定比例的人读了这本书后会惊叹不已。
Now I don't deny that there's gonna be a percentage of people who read that book and go, wow.
我真的可以在世界上变得很卑鄙。
I can really be nasty in the world.
我现在真的可以利用这个获取大量权力，而他们正将其用于不良目的。
I can really use this now and get a lot of power, and they are using it for bad purposes.
我理解这一点，我必须承认，我对这本书的使用方式并非完全天真无知。
I understand that, and I have to own up to that and not I'm not completely naive about how the book is used.
但绝大多数人——我从收到的邮件中了解到这一点，过去二十多年里我收到了成百上千、甚至数以万计的邮件，最终可能有数十万封——都是像我曾经那样天真的人，他们不懂游戏规则，带着各种被灌输的幻想进入职场。
But the vast percentage of people, and I know this from the emails I get, I get hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of them in the last twenty some years, probably hundreds of thousands in the end, are people who are like my were like myself, who were naive, who didn't understand how the game is played, who entered the work world with all kinds of illusions that were bred into them.
因为你的父母不会告诉你，你的老师和学校也不会告诉你，世界上存在善于操纵的人，职场可能充满政治，每个人都有自尊心。
Because your parents don't tell you your teachers at your parents and your schools don't tell you that there are people out there who are manipulative, that the world can't be political, that everyone out there has egos.
没人教你这些。
Nobody teaches you this.
所有的书籍都过于美好甜蜜，那些自助书籍告诉你只要合作就好。
All of the books are so sweet and sugary, telling you self help books, you know, just cooperate.
这就是如何做一个好人。
This is how to be a good human being.
当你进入职场时，却没人让你准备好面对那些刻薄、玩弄权术、自我膨胀的人给你的当头一棒。
And you enter the work world, and and nobody prepared you for the bitch slap that you have from people being so nasty, political, and ego ridden.
没人教过我这些。
Nobody taught me this.
他们如饥似渴地抓住这本书，就像沙漠中的甘泉。
They glom onto the book like it's, you know, water in the desert.
哇。
Wow.
他正在教我一些真实的东西。
He's teaching me something real.
我相信这才是大多数读者的心声。
That's the majority of readers I believe.
可能是我错了。
I could be wrong.
这背后没有科学依据。
There's no science behind it.
我没有数据支持。
I don't have data.
不过，轶事数据某种程度上让我相信——这些读者正试图实践...
Anecdotal data, though, is sort of how I believe it it these are the readers that are trying to do the
我在自己生活中发现，太多经历——尤其是关于童年创伤的，就像你刚才谈到的那些。
What I have found in my own life is so so much of what I have seen and ran into with, especially in, whether with early childhood trauma, like what you just talked about.
那些擅长说谎、操纵或行使权力（按我们的定义）的人，是因为在他们生命中的某个阶段，这些行为确实具有实用性。
People who have people who are proficient at lying or manipulating or exercising, as we can define, power, is because at that point in time in their life, there was an actual utility to it.
他们能让父母停止争吵。
They were able to get mom and dad to stop arguing.
他们能让家庭保持完整。
They were able to keep the family together.
他们能避免惹上麻烦，保护自己不受虐待或类似伤害——这些技能他们早已习得。
They were able to not get in trouble, to keep themselves from getting abused or whatever it is, that so much of it they've already learned.
而有些人可能就像你说的那样，觉得一切都是玫瑰色的，结果一进入现实世界就被当头一棒，哇哦。
And whereas some people might be, like you said, they think everything's roses, and they just get hit with a tidal wave as soon as they enter the real world of, wow.
这就是现实——我多友善都没用。
This is it doesn't matter how nice I am.
他们照样会对我粗鲁无礼。
They're gonna be rude to me.
我多守规矩都没用。
It doesn't matter how clean I play.
如果我不做X/Y/Z这些事，就永远出不了头。
I'm never gonna get anywhere if I don't do x, y, and z.
没人教过我真正的生存法则——那些残酷的潜规则。
Nobody taught me the true rule the the hard knock rules.
是啊。
Yeah.
这公平吗？
Is that fair?
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是的。
Yeah.
我是说，我读过一本关于战争的书，其中提到一个概念叫《战争33策》。
I mean, I've read a book about warfare, And one of the concepts called the 33 strategies of war.
书中有个概念就是我们所说的非对称战争。
And one of the concepts in there is what we call asymmetric warfare.
也就是所谓的肮脏战争。
And that's what is also called dirty warfare.
对吧？
Right?
比如恐怖主义，或者游击战，这些都不讲规则，为达目的不择手段。
People who like terrorism, okay, or like guerrilla warfare, where the rules are thrown out, where you're willing to do anything.
通常采用这种战术的都是规模较小、实力较弱的军队。
Usually, it comes from armies that have that are much smaller and weaker.
这确实是恐怖主义的起源。
And that's certainly the origin of terrorism.
对吧？
Right?
你要利用自己的渺小、小规模军队，通过不择手段、毫无道德底线的方式获取权力来伤害敌人。
You're gonna leverage your smallness, your small size, your small army by being as nasty and amoral, and you'll do anything to get power to hurt the enemy.
明白吗？
Okay?
而通常敌人会遵守规则，这是好的。
And what happens is oftentimes the enemy doesn't plays by rules is good.
因此在不对称战争中，还存在一种道德上的不对称性。
And so in asymmetric warfare, right, it's an ethical there's also an ethical asymmetry.
比如我想到俄罗斯的普京。
So I think of things like Putin in Russia, for instance.
懂了吗？
Okay?
他是个为了权力愿意不择手段的人，无论多么肮脏黑暗，只要对他和他的国家有利，他就会去做。
He's somebody who's willing to play, do anything for power, as nasty and as dark, whatever works for him and his country is what he will do.
当这些欧洲国家拥有民主制度、规则体系、敬畏之心、组织架构和官僚体系时，面对一个愿意无所不用其极的对手，它们往往处于持续劣势。
When you have these European countries with their democracies and their rules and their awe and their organization and their bureaucracies, and they're continually at a disadvantage facing somebody who's willing to do anything much more than they're willing to do.
我们在美国政治中也发现了同样的情况。
We find this as well in American politics.
明白吗？
Okay?
生活中同样的事情也会发生。
So in life, the same thing happens.
当你办公室里那些道德底线比你更低的人存在时，他们愿意做许多你绝不会考虑的事，你就会持续处于劣势。
When there are people out there in your office who have who their ethics and their morals are thinner than yours, they're willing to do much things that you would never consider doing, you're at a continual disadvantage.
你不愿去做他们那些肮脏勾当。
You're not willing to do the dirty things that they're doing.
对吧？
Right?
在一个有人愿意做你绝不会考虑之事的世界里，你该如何自卫？
How do you defend yourself in a world where some people are willing to do things that you would never consider doing?
对吧？
Right?
你必须变得有策略性，并且要明白你不必变得邪恶。
Well, you have to become strategic, and you have to understand that you don't have to do you don't have to be evil.
你不必降低到他们的水平。
You don't have to lower yourself to their level.
你不必以牙还牙。
You don't have to play fire to hit fire with fire.
你可以采取不同的方式来干扰他们，运用策略，阻止他们伤害你等等。
You could do different things to upset them, to be strategic, to deter them from hurting you, etcetera.
但事实上，这种不对称性——有人愿意做你不愿做的事——正是你生活中许多问题、痛苦和苦难的根源。
But the the fact that there are asymmetries out there, there are people who are willing to do things that you're not willing to do is the source of a lot of problems and pain in your life and suffering.
你的一生都将因此承受痛苦。
And you're gonna suffer throughout your life because of that.
要知道，那些有毒的自恋者，他们愿意做的事范围如此之广，而你的却如此有限。
You know, those toxic narcissists, their their gamut of what they're willing to do is like this, and yours is like this.
所以，你要明白，作为一个善良的人，你会不断受到打击，而你未必能完全理解这些行为。
And so, you know, you're you're constantly being hit by things, and you're not necessarily understanding because you're a good person.
你往往要到为时已晚时，才能意识到他们所做的那些阴暗之事。
You don't necessarily register all the dark things that they're doing until it's too late.
在继续之前，我想花点时间向你介绍Monarch。
Before we keep going, I wanna take a second to tell you about Monarch.
节日固然美好，但也伴随着诸多开销。
The holidays are great, but they come with a lot.
旅行、礼物、家庭聚会——这是资金快速流动的时期，而Monarch能帮你清晰掌握资金流向。
Travel gifts, family gatherings, it's one of those times where money moves fast, and it helps actually see where it's all going.
如果你想在这个假期控制好财务状况，Monarch是你的必备工具。
If you want to keep your finances under control this holiday season, you need to be using Monarch.
被《华尔街日报》评为2025年最佳预算应用的Monarch，是一款集所有个人财务功能于一体的工具，通过简洁界面将你的财务生活整合到笔记本电脑或手机上，随时随地管理。
Rated by Wall Street Journal's best budgeting app of 2025, Monarch is the all in one personal finance tool that brings your entire financial life together in one clean interface on your laptop or your phone wherever you are.
现在，我的听众专享福利：Monarch首年服务费五折优惠。
And right now, just for my listeners, Monarch is offering 50% off your first year.
这可是五折优惠。
That's 50% off.
相当于半价。
That's half.
简直太棒了。
That's awesome.
当你开始使用Monarch时，我保证你会惊讶于它整合一切竟如此简单。
When you start using Monarch, I promise you, you're going to be surprised at just how simple it is to tie everything together.
最终获得完整的财务全景图。
And finally, have a full picture.
能看清所有支出、投资、资金来源和去向，这种感觉不是很好吗？
Wouldn't that be nice to have see all of your spending, all of your investments, where it's all coming in from, how it's all all going out?
这就是心安的感觉。
That's peace of mind.
所以别让这个假日季的财务良机从指缝中溜走。
So don't let financial opportunity slip through the cracks this holiday season.
在浏览器访问monarch.com并使用优惠码jefferson，首年即可享受半价优惠。
Use code jefferson at monarch.com in your browser for half off your first year.
使用优惠码Jefferson在monarch.com首年可享5折优惠。
That's 50% off of your first year at monarch.com with the code Jefferson.
现在让我们回到节目内容。
And now back to the episode.
我想分享一段让我深有感触的引文。
I'd like to read a quote that hit home for me.
要明白，人生中人们会不断攻击你。
Understand, People will constantly attack you in life.
他们的主要武器之一就是让你对自己产生怀疑——怀疑你的价值、能力和潜力。
One of their main weapons will be to instill in you doubts about yourself, your worth, your abilities, your potential.
这就是将自爱转化为同理心的过程。
That's in transform self love into empathy.
我的问题是：我们该如何建立沟通习惯，既能应对这些让我们产生自我怀疑的攻击，又不会将其内化？
My question is, how do we build communication habits that handle these attacks on ourselves that instill doubts in us without internalizing them?
或者你如何处理那些试图让你产生自我怀疑的人？
Or how do you handle people trying to instill doubts in you?
你谈到了自爱。
You talked about self love.
这出自我的书《人性的法则》。
This is from my book, The Laws of Human Nature.
所以你的不安全感程度，也就是你不够真正爱自己的程度——我们得先澄清一个普遍的误解。
So to the degree that you are insecure, to the degree that you don't really love yourself so we have to clear up a a a misconception that people have.
自恋与真正的自爱是有区别的。
There's a difference between narcissism and true self love.
对吧？
Right?
如果你在三四五岁时就明白自己是个好人，值得被爱和善待，明白随着年龄增长你拥有的技能和才能确实有价值并能做出贡献。
So if you learned at an early age, three, four, five years old, that you're actually a good person, that you're worthy of love and affection affection from other people, you know, that you have skills and abilities as you get older that are actually worthwhile that will contribute.
对吧？
Right?
那么你的人生就有了锚点。
Then you have an anchor in your life.
你拥有一定程度的自爱和自信。
You have a degree of love of yourself, a confidence.
因此，在今后的人生中，每当遭遇打击，当人们用质疑攻击你，试图破坏你，暗示你可能不够好，或者玩弄我们讨论的这些把戏时，你会受到冲击，这会让你沮丧，让你情绪低落。
So every time later in life where you have blows, where people hit you with doubts, but they try and sabotage you, they try and insinuate that maybe you're not so good, or they play these games that we're talking about, you're going to get this blow, and it's going to depress you and it's going to lower you down.
这会影响你。
And it's going to affect you.
我们都是如此。
We're all like that.
没人能幸免，包括我自己。
Nobody can't suffer from that, myself included.
但如果你在早年就培养了那种程度的自爱，你就会重新振作起来。
But what happens is if you have that level of self love that you developed at an early age, you will rise back up.
你会开始说：不。
You will start going, no.
说我这样是不对的，这不是事实。
It's not true that I'm this way.
他们试图告诉我的都不是真的。
It's not true what they're trying to tell me.
要知道，我其实是有价值的。
You know, I'm actually worthy.
我深知这一点，因为我这辈子做过不少事。
And I know it because I've done things in my life.
我完成过这些成就。
I've accomplished this.
我帮助过那个人。
I've helped this other person.
这些会让你重新振作起来。
It raises you back up.
就像你内心装着一个恒温器。
It's like a thermostat that you have inside of yourself.
明白吗？
Okay?
所以你所拥有的那份爱的程度会让你重新振作起来，一开始你可能会被他们的质疑所动摇，因为我们都是凡人。
So the degree that you have, that love, will bounce you back up, and you'll be able to tell yourself, at first, their doubts kind of hit you, because we're all human.
但随后你会说，不，这都是胡扯。
But then you go, no, It's crap.
他们只是在玩游戏。
They're playing a game.
我不会上那个当的。
I'm not gonna fall for that.
但如果你很早就受过伤，从未培养出那种自爱，并且对自己充满怀疑，缺乏安全感，内心布满弹孔般的伤痕，让负面情绪有机可乘，这时别人再对你说那些话。
But if you were wounded very early on and you never developed that self love and you have a lot of doubts about yourself already and you're insecure and you're riddled with, like, bullet holes and wounds inside of yourself where things can leak through, and people tell you those things.
它就会击垮你，让你再也站不起来。
It's gonna bring you down, and you're gonna not rise back up.
你刚勉强站起来一点，又会有另一个人打击你。
You rise back up a little bit, then another person will hit you.
你会不断沉沦，越陷越深。
You'll keep going down and down and down.
你会变得抑郁，并且发现很难重新振作。
You get depressed, and you'll find it very difficult to rise back up.
所以无论你二十岁、三十岁、四十岁甚至五十岁，面对人生的方式就是——哦我刚看到一只郊狼经过。
So the way you have to handle it in life, if you're in your twenties or thirties or forties or even in your fifties, well, I just saw a coyote walk right by.
明白吗？
You know?
你必须培养这种能力。
You have to develop it.
你必须回头审视，意识到：我正在苛责自己。
You have to go back and go, I'm beating up on myself.
我充满所有这些不安全感。
I have all these insecurities.
它们确实在影响我。
They're effective.
这些人之所以能操纵他们，是因为我允许他们操纵我。
These people are effectively manipulating them because I'm allowing them to manipulate me.
所以当生活中遇到坏事时，你有两种选择。
So when bad things happen to you in life, you have two choices you can do.
对吧？
Right?
这可能是我能告诉所有人的最重要的事情。
This is probably the most important thing I can tell everybody out there.
你有两种思维方式可选。
You have two think ways you can go.
你可以责怪别人。
You can blame other people.
你可以说，哦，那个坏人，他/她在操纵我。
You can say, oh, that evil person out there, he's manipul she's manipulating me.
他们做了这个、那个，还有其他种种。
They're doing this, that, and the other.
唉，我真可怜。
Oh, woe is me.
我成了受害者。
I'm being the victim.
吧啦吧啦说一堆。
Blah blah blah.
他们都是坏人。
They're evil.
他们很恶劣。
They're bad.
明白吗？
Okay?
如果你在生活中这样做，就永远不会有长进。
You do that in life, you're never gonna get anywhere.
对吧？
Right?
你总是会寻找可以责怪的事物，把目光投向外部因素。
You're gonna always be looking for things to blame, looking at external things.
你永远都不会成长。
You're never gonna grow.
你永远都不会进步。
You're never gonna develop.
另一件事是，每当坏事发生时，你审视内心时会想：那个人操控了我。
The other thing is every time something bad happens, you look inside of yourself and you go, that person manipulated me.
那个自恋者闯入了我的生活，造成了各种伤害。
That narcissist got into my life and did all kinds of damage.
我身上有什么特质让他们有机可乘？
What is it about me that allowed them into my life?
我为何如此天真，如此愚蠢，为何会相信他们说的那些？
What is it about me that was so innocent, that was so stupid, that that believed the things that we're saying?
明白吗？
K?
所以如果你能从这些事件中学习成长，审视自己并思考：为什么我会允许他们打击我、伤害我，并让我产生这些怀疑？
So if you're able to learn and grow from these events and look at yourself and go, why was I why was I allowing them to hit me and hurt me and instill these doubts?
为什么这些没有影响到我？
And why didn't they affect me?
我有什么问题？
What's wrong with me?
嗯，也许是我爱自己不够。
Well, maybe I don't love myself enough.
也许是我对自己不够自信。
Maybe I don't have enough confidence in myself.
我该如何建立自信？
How do I build that up?
嗯，我得回溯到童年时期。
Well, I have to go back to my childhood.
我得想想自己实际已经取得的成就。
I have to think about the things that I've actually accomplished.
我必须慢慢、慢慢、慢慢地建立它，这就是你处理事情的方式。
I have to build it up slowly, slowly, slowly, and that's how you handle things.
但如果你无法审视内心，认识到坏事发生了，我必须从中学习，必须成长，也许部分是我自己的错，那么你的人生将永远沉沦。
But if you can't look inside of yourself and go, the bad thing happened, and I have to learn from it, and I had to grow, and maybe some of it's my own fault, you're sunk in life for the rest of your life.
你永远都不会进步。
You'll never ever develop.
我想花点时间跟你聊聊Momentus。
I wanna take a quick second to tell you about Momentus.
Momentus是这个播客的赞助商，我特别高兴能谈论它，因为我每天都在使用他们的产品。
Momentus is a sponsor of this podcast I am so excited to be talking about because I use this stuff every single day.
当我告诉你我服用它后，每次都觉得在让自己变得更好时，那是因为这绝对是事实。
When I tell you I ingest it, and I feel like I am making myself a better person every time I do, it's because that is the absolute truth.
Momentus让提升表现的科学变得简单。
Momentus, they make the science of better performance simple.
你可能在想，杰斐逊，我不太爱运动，不是什么运动员，也不到处跑步。
And you might be thinking, look, Jefferson, I am not huge on exercise, I'm not some athlete, I'm not running everywhere.
我明白。
I get it.
真的。
I do.
我懂。
I get it.
Momentous正在为我提供营养，我知道在我忙碌的日子里无法获取这些。
Momentous is giving me the nutrition that I know I'm not getting in my very busy day.
我是这么想的。
So here's how I think about it.
我知道我想展现出最好的自己。
I know I want to show up my best.
这意味着我需要从摄入体内的东西开始。
That means I need to start with what I'm putting in my body.
这与我所有的营养摄入有关。
That's to do with all of my nutrition.
那我都在服用什么产品呢？
So what am I taking?
我服用很多Momentous的产品。
I take a lot of Momentous stuff.
我用他们的乳清蛋白粉，
I do their whey protein, which
是草饲的，我还用他们的肌酸、镁剂和L3O8。
is grass fed, I use their creatine, I use their magnesium, L3O8.
他们有一整套助眠组合，帮助我夜间获得良好睡眠。
They have a whole sleep stack that I take, which helps me sleep at nights restful.
我服用他们所有的omega-3产品，就放在我的冰箱里。
I take all their omega-3s, and it's in my fridge.
我超爱这些产品，在他们成为赞助商之前我就开始用了。
I love this stuff, and I used it before they were ever a sponsor.
所以当我按下录制键与你对话，或是站上舞台演讲时，我摄入体内的营养至关重要。
So when I'm pressing record to talk to you, or I'm stepping on stage to speak to people, it matters what I put in my body.
你可以访问livemomentous.com，使用优惠码Jefferson，首次订阅可享受高达35%的折扣。
You can go to livemomentous.com, use the code Jefferson, and get up to 35% off your first subscription.
网址是livemomentous.com/jefferson。
That's livemomentous.com/jefferson.
Momentous，当你的时刻至关重要时，让它意义非凡。
Momentous, when your moment matters, make it count.
现在回到节目。
And now back to the episode.
我想确保提及你一直在做的项目。
I wanna make sure and touch on the project you've been working on.
我记得是叫《崇高》。
I believe it's called the Sublime.
《崇高法则》。
The law of the Sublime.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yeah.
给我们讲讲吧。
Tell tell us about it.
你们有确定的发布日期吗？
Is it do you have a release date for it?
嗯，我非常高兴地宣布，是的，它应该会在2026年10月发布。
Well, I'm very finally happy to to announce that, yes, it should be out in October of of twenty twenty six.
太棒了。
I That's fantastic.
嗯，是的。
Well, yeah.
我是说，我已经为此工作了五年半。
I mean, I've been working on it for five and a half years now.
所以每一天，持续不断地，就像坐过山车一样。
And so every day, constantly, it's been a roller coaster.
眼看就要完成，我几乎要喜极而泣。
So to see the end is almost brings tears to my eyes.
我几乎无法、真的无法
I almost can't even, I can't even
太棒了。
That's wonderful.
控制情绪。
Handle it.
这将是你第九本书吗？
This will be your ninth book?
这是我的第八本书。
It'll be my eighth book.
第八本。
Eighth book.
第八本。
Eighth book.
好的。
Okay.
第八本书。
Eighth book.
哇。
Wow.
太不可思议了。
That's incredible.
你能给我们稍微透露一下吗？
Can you give us a a little preview of Yeah.
嗯，关于崇高感的作用？
Well the role of the sublime?
这本书某种程度上受到我八年前——或者说七年半前——经历的一次濒死体验影响，当时我中风了。
So, it's a little bit influenced by the near death experience I had eight years ago when I suffered a or seven and a half years ago when I suffered a stroke.
我当时差点就死了，是我妻子救了我的命。
And I came this close to dying myself, and my my wife basically saved my life.
我当时正在洛杉矶开车。
I was driving my car here in Los Angeles.
她看到我的脸突然垮了下来，情况很不对劲。
She saw my face just falling apart, something weird going on.
我当时正在开车。
I was driving.
我自己完全没有意识到。
I wasn't aware of any of it.
她让我——她强行把我逼停在路边。
She got me she forced me off the road.
她拨打了911。
She called 911.
救护人员很快就赶到了。
They came quickly.
如果这些环节中有任何一个小细节没发生——如果他们晚到一分钟，或者她没及时发现，我现在就不可能在这里和你说话了。
If any of those little things hadn't happened, if they had been a minute later or she hadn't recognized it, I wouldn't be talking to you right now.
我可能已经死了，或者处于植物人状态。
I'd either be dead or I'd be in a vegetative state.
生命就像一根细线，随时可能断裂，而你甚至毫无察觉。
So life is this very thin thread, right, where things can you know, you can definitely slip off the edge and you're not aware it can happen at any moment.
而生命的崇高之处在于——能够活着，真切地观察世界，看清事物的本质，看见飞鸟、自然、人类，意识到你我此刻正通过这个设备交谈——这在五十年前会被当作科幻小说情节，简直不可思议。
And the sublime is this understanding that to be alive, to simply be alive, to fully see the world, to see things as they are, to see birds, to see nature, to see human beings, to see that you and I are talking on this instrument right now, which fifty years ago would seem like something from some science fiction story, is utterly mind blowing.
但人们并未意识到，他们整天把手机贴在脸上生活。
But people don't realize that they walk through their lives with their phones stuck in their face.
他们满脑子想着看别人早餐吃了什么。
They're thinking about, you know, reading about what people had for breakfast.
他们的思维正变得越来越狭隘。
Their minds are getting smaller and smaller.
在不断萎缩。
They're shrinking down.
他们未能向无限敞开，未能感知这个世界的浩瀚，未能体会我们身处有生命的星球这一宇宙奇迹。
They're not opening up to the infinite, to the vastness of this world, to the amazing fact that we're on a planet with life in a cosmos.
宇宙中很可能几乎没有、甚至根本不存在其他生命，而我们却进化到今天的人类形态，拥有现在的一切。
There's probably very little, hardly, maybe no life at all, that it evolved to where we are today, that we're human beings, that we have what we have.
这简直令人难以置信。
It's utterly unbelievable.
我正试图让你们看清我所称之为'崇高'的各个不同面向。
And I'm trying to open your eyes to each of the different aspects of what I call the sublime.
接着我会谈到童年，以及我们每个人的童年体验为何都如此强烈。
Then I talk about childhood and how our childhood was so all of our childhoods were so intense.
我们天生就具备崇高性及其真正含义。
We're naturally sublime and what that means.
大脑与意识本身何其怪异又崇高。
How the brain and consciousness itself is utterly weird and sublime.
其他动物及其意识状态，以及我们如何能研究并与不同物种共情，这本身就极为崇高。
How other animals and their consciousness and how we can kind of study and empathize with other species is utterly sublime.
爱——作为单独章节——其本质就是崇高的品质。
Love, which is a chapter, sublime is quality.
历史与我们的祖先是一段不可思议的存在。
History in the past and our ancestors is an is an incredible thing.
我会谈到古代文明。
I talk about ancient civilizations.
我曾向你们描述过巴比伦古城的样子。
I described to you what the ancient city of Babylonia looked like.
远古世界的城市之美远超我们想象，那种壮丽令人难以置信。
The ancient world, the cities back there were unbelievably beautiful in a way we can't even imagine.
对吧？
Right?
所以我写了12个章节，分别探讨这些不同的面向。
So I have 12 different chapters each kind of going into some of those different aspects.
这段旅程很特别——我现在举着的这只手几乎不能动，因为中风的后遗症。
And it's been a journey because this hand here that I'm holding up is kinda dead because this is my stroke.
我无法打字。
I can't type.
所以我不得不手写所有内容，然后口述输入电脑。
So I've had to handwrite everything and then dictate it into the computer.
哇。
Wow.
如果你看到这个过程，你会说，我的天啊。
If you saw the process, you'd go, my god.
我简直不敢相信你居然完成了这本书的一个段落。
I can't believe you even got one paragraph of this book out.
所以
So
嗯，这确实令人难以置信地印象深刻。
Well, that is that is incredibly impressive.
我期待十月份出版时大家都能去阅读这本书。
And I look forward to everybody taking a making sure they can go take a look at it when it comes out there in October.
这非常值得钦佩。
It's very that's something to very much admire.
非常感谢你与我们分享这些。
So I appreciate you sharing that with us.
不客气。
You're very welcome.
非常不客气。
Very welcome.
我想用这个问题来结束，你可能之前被问过。
I wanted to wrap up with this question, one that you've probably gotten before.
现在你已经有了二十多年的时间可以回顾，你说，你知道吗？
Now that you've had twenty plus years to, you know, look backwards, and you said, well, you know what?
我在48岁时停下了。
I stopped at 48.
如果现在再看，可能会有一两条法律让你觉得，我会加上这一条。
If there ever could be now looking at it another law, maybe one or two, that you thought, well, I'd add this one.
你有这样的想法吗？
Do you have one?
第四十九条法则就是不存在第四十九条法则。
The forty ninth law is there is no forty ninth law.
对吧？
Right?
你明白吗？
You know?
是的。
Yeah.
杰斐逊，说实话，每当我完成一本书，我就会继续前进。
Jefferson, to be honest with you, when I finish a book, I kinda move on.
我已经投入到下一个项目中了。
I'm on to the next project.
没错。
Yeah.
我现在专注于诱惑的艺术。
I'm on to seduction.
我现在专注于战争。
I'm on to war.
我现在专注于精通之道。
I'm on to mastery.
我正在和50 Cent合作。
I'm working with 50 Cent.
我全都要做。
I'm doing them all.
我完全沉浸其中。
I'm so absorbed in them.
我很少回头去想，那本书里我漏掉了什么？
I don't really go back and think, what did I miss in that book over there?
我试着在心理上告诉自己，你已经面面俱到了。
I try to tell myself psychologically, you covered it all.
继续推进下一个项目吧。
Move on onto the next project.
不要回头看那种事。
Don't look back kind of thing.
这大概就是我的人生信条。
That's sort of my guiding philosophy in life.
我觉得这是个相当好的信条，一个我完全能认同的信条。
I think that's a pretty good philosophy, one I can I can certainly relate to?
嗯，我发自内心地欣赏你的专注精神
Well, I appreciate, from me to you, I I appreciate your dedication
哦，谢谢。
Oh, thank you.
对你的事业和项目的专注，以及你选择与世界分享的内容。
To your to your art and to your projects and what you've chosen to to share in the world.
我知道，就像我读过它们一样，任何人都可以——我的内容也是如此。
And I know that, you know, as I've read them, anybody can and same with my content.
你总是可以按照自己选择的方式去理解和接受它们，但它们就是它们本来的样子。
You can always take them in the way that you want to choose to receive them and how you accept them, but they are what they are.
正如你提到的，权力在很多方面都是一种中性工具。
They in many ways, power, like you've mentioned, is a neutral tool.
因此，我从今天的对话中学到的第一点是：权力就是能够控制或影响他人达成你期望结果的能力。
And so what I've learned in our conversation today is, number one, power is the ability to control or influence another to your desired outcome.
而那些没有权力的人，他们会感到无能为力。
And those that don't have the power, they're the ones that they feel powerless.
在很多方面，他们就像被抛在后面，没有学会这些工具。
In many ways, like they got left behind and didn't learn these tools.
这些正是你在书中传授的经验，绝非一时兴起随手写就。
These are the kind of lessons that you teach in that book that you didn't just write off the top of your head.
你从全球范围进行研究，跨越不同时代和世界各地。
You research it from globally, from different ages to all across the world.
这些都是能够帮助很多人的东西。
And these are things that can help a lot of people.
至少，能给他们一个关于真实世界的真正视角。
If anything, give them a really genuine perspective of what the real world is like.
第二，当面对那些攻击你、试图贬低你并灌输怀疑的人时，他们能做到的程度与你对自己投入的自爱水平相对应。
Two, when it comes to dealing with people that are attacking you and trying to put you down and and instill doubts in you, their ability to do so is is corresponding to those level of self love that you have invested in yourself.
而那些自爱程度更高的人，他们受这些试图播撒怀疑之人的影响会更小。
And those with higher self love, they're gonna be less affected by those trying to sow doubts into them.
第三点，我想谈谈崇高法则。
And then three, I wanna touch on the law of the sublime.
这给了我如此美妙的画面，就像你刚才在这里听着，看到一只郊狼跑过。
Gave me just such a wonderful picture, as you were even listening here, and you saw a coyote run by.
对生命的珍视及其宝贵性，是我们永远不应忘记的。
The appreciation for life and how precious it is is something that we should never forget.
罗伯特，非常感谢你抽时间与我们和我的观众分享这些。
Robert, thank you so much for taking the time to share share with us and my audience.
希望你能看到我。
I hope you're able to see me.
我看到所有这些光线照进来。
I see all this light coming in.
天啊。
God.
我该挪一下位置的。
I should have moved over.
我只是觉得你在发光。
I just thought you were glowing.
是啊。
Yeah.
你知道吗，我真的觉得你整个人都在发光。
You know, I really it's just you're just glowing.
太棒了。
That's awesome.
罗伯特，非常感谢你。
Robert, thank you so much.
我很感激。
I appreciate it.
感谢邀请我，杰斐逊。
For having me, Jefferson.
我很高兴我们终于
I'm glad that we finally Great to
见到你。
meet you.
能够实现这次会面。
Be able to do this.
谢谢。
Thank you.
保重，兄弟。
Take care, man.
我也是。
Me too.
绝对的。
Absolutely.
是的，先生。
Yes, sir.
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