#2314 - 哈尔·普特霍夫

有人问，你当总统期间有没有发生过什么特别奇怪的事？

And somebody said, well, anything happened while you're president that was really strange?

他说，哦，有的。

He's oh, yeah.

我们有一架苏联飞机在非洲坠毁。

We the Soviet plane went down in, Africa.

飞机上装满了电子设备，我们想得到它，但没人知道它的位置。

It was full of electronics, and we wanted to get it, and nobody knew where it was.

卫星也找不到它，因为被茂密的植被覆盖了。

And satellites couldn't find it because of all the vegetation.

但我们有些所谓的'远程观察者'，他们精确定位了飞机的位置。

And but we had some remote viewers, so called, and they pinpointed where it was.

我们在俄罗斯人找到之前就把它弄到手了。

And we went in and got it before the Russians could find it.

所以，我是说，这些事情确实产生了现实世界的影响。

So, I mean, this is a real world consequences came out of this stuff.

所以当卡特这么说时，那算是泄密吗？

So when Carter said that, was that a breach of confidence?

那算是安全漏洞，但总统可以这么做。他们是被允许的。

That was a breach of security, but a president can They're allowed to do that.

是被允许的。

Allowed to do that.

别告诉特朗普。

Don't tell Trump.

对吧？

Right?

所以你们美国能够去获取这架飞机。

So so you the The United States was able to go and get this jet.

然后就这样

And So by the

应该是T-2轰炸机。

twenty T two bomber, think it was.

是的。

Yeah.

所以这有实际应用价值。

So this has real world uses.

所以这种远程观测。

So this this remote viewing.

没错。

So Right.

他们现在投入更多时间和精力在这上面了吗？

Do they invest more time and more effort into this now?

现在还有怀疑者吗？

Are there still skeptics?

嗯，我们基本解决了怀疑问题，让我给你举个例子。

Well, we pretty much handle the skeptical problem, and let let me let me give you an example.

我的意思是，当我们不断产出这些结果时，可以想象任何不了解内情的人都会持怀疑态度——顺便说句，这种怀疑也很合理。

I mean, as we're churning out these results, as you can imagine, anybody, you know, didn't have direct knowledge of this would would be skeptical, and rightly so, by the way.

我的意思是，在我们深入研究这些东西的过程中，我每一步都持怀疑态度。

I mean, I was skeptical every inch along the way as we plowed our way into this stuff.

所以有一天，中央情报局来了个人说，好吧，我来这里就是要找出骗局在哪里。

So one day a guy shows up from CIA and says, Okay, I'm here to find out what the fraud is.

我确信这完全是胡说八道。

I'm sure this is absolute nonsense.

于是我说，好吧，没问题。

So I said, Okay, fine.

给我展示一下你们的其中一个实验。

So show me one of your experiments.

于是我们把他和一名采访者、一名远程观察者一起安排在实验室里。

So we put him in the lab with an interviewer and a remote viewer.

而在这个案例中，我被派出去待了30分钟。

And in this case, I'm sent out someplace for thirty minutes.

结果证明那位远程观察者描述得非常准确。

It turns out that the rote viewer described it really well.

然后他说，好吧，可能是你提前告诉了他你要去哪里。

And he said, well, you probably told him where you're going to go.

我们再做一次实验吧。

Let's do another experiment.

这次由我来出发。

And I'm going to go.

而且我们要开我的车去，因为你车里可能有发报器会泄露目的地。

And we'll go in my car because you might have had a transmitter in your car transmitting where you're going.

这次由我来选择地点。

So I'm going to pick the side.

我们又做了一次实验，得到了很棒的结果。

So we do another experiment, get a great result.

法伊扎说，好吧，我必须找出这个实验的问题所在。

Faiza says, well, I've got to figure out what's wrong with this.

于是我和同事拉塞尔·塔格坐下来研究。

So my colleague Russell Targ and I sat down.

这家伙是个难啃的硬骨头，但我们有钟形曲线数据。

So this guy's a hard case, but we've got the bell curve.

谁知道呢？

Who knows?

也许就在钟形曲线的中间位置。

Maybe somewhere in the middle of the bell curve.

第二天他来了，我们说：好吧。

So he comes in the next day, and we say, okay.

今天，你将待在你的房间里。

Today, you're gonna be the room of yours.

然后他说，哦，饶了我吧。

And he said, oh, give me a break.

我才不信这些鬼话。

I don't believe in this BS.

实际上，他的用词可比这强硬多了。

He said it much more strongly than that, actually.

然后我说，不行。

And I said, no.

不行。

No.

好吧。

Okay.

呃，就试试看嘛。

Well, just just try.

你会看到我们并没有给他压力，诸如此类的话。

You'll see we're not stressing him out and whatever, whatever, whatever.

然后他说，好吧。

And he says, okay.

当你去你那边的时候，我要你拍照并录音。

And when you go to your place, I want you to take pictures and do a recording.

等你回来时，先给我看你的东西，我再给你看我的。

And when you come back, show me your stuff before I show you mine.

他说，好吧。

Said, okay.

行。

Fine.

结果我们去了一个有旋转木马的游乐场。

Well, it turned out we went to a playground with a merry-go-round.

与此同时，实验室里他正在画一个有旋转木马的游乐场。

Meanwhile, back in the lab, he's drawing a picture of a playground with a merry-go-round.

他看到结果后说，好吧。

And he sees the results and he says, okay.

你说服我了。

You've convinced me.

就是这类事情最终打动了他。

So it was that kind of thing that would push him over.

是啊。

Yeah.

这里有个例子。

There there's an example.

现在他误解了那是什么。

Now he misinterpreted what it was.

他以为可能是个小圆顶之类的。

He thought maybe it was a cupula or whatever.

总之，右边是他的画作，左边是我们实际所在的地方。

But, anyway, that's his drawing on the right, and that's where we were on the left.

于是他就这样回到中情局说，好吧。

And so he said so so he went back to CIA and said, okay.

这东西确实有效，后来他成为了他们最出色的远程观察者之一。

This stuff really works, and he became one of their star remote viewers over the years.

哇。

Wow.

所以一个怀疑论者成了他们的远程观察者？

So a skeptic became one of their remote viewers?

是的。

Yep.

当然。

Sure

确实。

did.

这个过程是怎样的？

What is the process?

一个人进行远程观测的流程是什么？

What is the process for a person to remote view?

比如，是否需要进入某种特定状态？

Like, is there a state that you have to go into?

有没有进入那种状态的方法？

Is there a method to getting into that state?

确实有方法，而且可能和你想象的不一样。

There is a method, and it's different from what you might think.

你可能会想，你会对某人说，好吧。

You might think, you would say to somebody, okay.

我们已经找到人来做决定了。

We've got somebody to decide.

就是想象他们所在的位置，看看那里是什么样子，然后告诉我们你的发现，诸如此类的事情。

Kind of imagine where they are and see what it looks like and tell us what you find and all that kind of stuff.

当他们这样做时通常都是错的，因为他们的想象力会介入，他们会编造一些东西或随便什么。

They're usually wrong when they do that because their imagination comes into play and they make up something or whatever.

但我们在研究中发现，你知道，这花了很多年和大量试验，就是你会对一个地点产生本能的反应。

But what we found out in the research, you know, it took years and a lot of trials, was that you get a visceral response to a site.

并不是说你一定会获得一个图像。

It's not that you get necessarily get an image.

所以实际上，我们告诉他们，如果你获得了一个图像，就把它写在纸的右边，因为它很可能是错的。

So in fact, we we we told them, you know, if you if you get an image, just put it down on the right hand side of the paper because it's probably wrong.

相反，只需要写下你进入那个地点时的感受。

Instead, just kinda put down your feelings as you get into the site.

所以，你知道，如果是水，他们可能会画波浪。

And so, you know, if it's like water, they might do waves.

或者如果是山峰，就像雅克在你之前的广播中描述的那样，一座山峰，他们就会想画类似的东西。

Or if it's a mountain peak, they might, as Jacques described in one of your previous broadcasts, a mountain peak, and they just feel like drawing something like that.

所以这个过程一点一点地，很大程度上是一种本能的感觉过程。

So bit by bit, the process is very much a visceral feeling process.

因此训练程序要求他们坐在纸垫前，只是进行素描和绘画，不去试图解释它是什么，同时也不急于求成。

And so the training procedure has them sitting with pads of paper and just making sketches and drawings and not trying to interpret what it is and also being very not in a rush about it.

这有点像你有一扇门，你在上面钻一个洞，然后再钻一个洞，再钻一个洞。

It's sort of like you've got a door and you drill a hole through and then drill another hole through and another hole through.

最后门会碎裂，这时你对这个标志就有了相当好的感觉。

And then finally, the door crumbles, and then you've got a pretty good feeling for what the sign is.

所以我们用来训练人的过程涉及这个多阶段流程，他们要依靠感觉、颜色、事物的闪现来行动。

So so the process that we use to train people involves this multistage process where they're to go by feelings, colors, flashes of things.

如果你看到一块金属的闪光，不要试图把它变成汽车或自行车什么的。

You see a flash of piece of metal, don't try to turn it into a car or a bicycle or whatever.

总之，我们开发了一整套训练流程。

So, anyway, there's a whole training procedure that we developed.

最终，当我们向陆军情报助理参谋长、情报助理总监汇报时，他们表示认可。

And eventually, when we briefed the assistant chief of staff for intelligence, assistant director of intelligence for the army, they said, okay.

那我们就需要派人来学习掌握这项技术。

Well, then we need to have our people get involved in learning how to do this.

于是他们派遣了陆军情报官。

And so they sent army intelligence officers.

他们挑选了一批人并宣布：'你们刚被选中成为通灵侦察员'，这些人回答：'好吧'。

They picked out a bunch of them and said, hey, you've just volunteered to become a psychic spy and say, well, Okay.

随后把他们送到了斯坦福研究所。

And they sent them out to SRI.

我们让他们逐步完成了这个训练流程。

And we ran them through this step by step training procedure.

他们最终都学得非常非常好。

And they learned to do really, really well.

我是说，乔尔·麦克莫尼格尔，任何关注相关文献的人都知道他确实是一位出色的远程观察者。

I mean, Joel McMonigle, who anyone who follows the literature, is known to be really an excellent remote viewer.

我来举个例子。

And so I'll give you an example.

有一次他说，我们训练了他们，所以他们确实学得很好。

One time he said I mean, we trained them, and so they learned to do really well.

我们建立了完整的项目。

We set up a whole program.

然后他说，好吧。

And he said, Okay.

苏联有个基地，他们正在建造一艘难以置信的巨型潜艇。

There's this site in The Soviet Union, and they're making this unbelievably giant submarine.

它是用钛或其他类似材料制成的。

And it's made out of titanium or something.

我的意思是，这艘潜艇比任何人听说过的都要大。

I mean, it's bigger than any submarine that anybody's ever heard of.

这很奇怪，因为导弹发射井位于顶部而不是两侧。

And it's strange because the missile silos are on the top rather than along the sides.

于是我把整个描述都汇报了上去。

And so I give this whole description.

当然，那时候我们一直要向上汇报到国家安全委员会，所以他们看了这个情报。

Of course, we had to at that time, we were briefing all the way up to National Security Council, and so they looked at this.

这简直是胡说八道。

This is is nonsense.

但大约一个月后，这艘难以置信的巨型潜艇——台风级核潜艇，史上最大的潜艇就下水了。

But about a month later, out rolls this unbelievably giant sub typhoon class submarine, the largest submarine ever made.

事实上，他的草图和相关描述都一一对应上了。

Indeed, there are his sketches, and a lot of description that went along with his sketches.

右边就是那艘潜艇的图片。

And there's a submarine on the right.

最终国家安全委员会的人终于说：好吧。

And so finally, the people of the National Security Council said, okay.

我们最好开始认真对待这件事。

We better start taking this seriously.

长话短说，最终乔·麦克蒙纳格因其为CIA、国家安全委员会和FBI提供的200多次重要观测获得了国家功绩奖。

So making a long story short, he eventually Joe McMonagle got a National Merit Award for over 200 great viewings he did for CIA, National Security Council, FBI.

我是说，你能想到的机构他都合作过。

I mean, you name it.

总之，这逐渐发展成了一个完整的产业。

So, anyway, that grew into a whole industry.

本节目由The Farmer's Dog赞助播出。

This episode is brought to you by the farmer's dog.

如果你和我一样，一定很爱你的狗狗。

If you're anything like me, you love your dog.

你希望为毛茸茸的伙伴提供最好的，但弄清楚什么才是最好的确实让人头疼。

You want what's best for your furry pal, but figuring out what that is can be a real headache.

市面上关于狗粮存在大量错误信息。

There's a lot of misinformation out there, around dog food.

以干狗粮为例。

Take kibble for example.

几乎每个人都可能在某些时候给他们的狗喂过干狗粮。

Almost everyone has probably fed their dog kibble at some point.

但如果你稍微调查一下，就会发现它是多么高度加工的。

But But if you do a little digging, you may find out how ultra processed it is.

幸运的是，你还有更好的选择。

Luckily, there's a better option for you out there.

来自真正关心你狗狗饮食的人们的真实食物，比如农夫之犬。

Real food from people who care about what goes into your dog's body, like the farmer's dog.

他们制作的鲜食非常简单，没有神奇配方，只有肉类和蔬菜，轻微烹煮，完全均衡地满足你狗狗的需求。

They make fresh food that's so simple, no magical or miracle recipes, just meat and vegetables, lightly cooked, complete and balanced for your dog's needs.

所有配方都由经过认证的营养师开发，食品安全标准与我们人类食品相同。

And it's all developed by board certified nutritionists with the same safety standards as our food.

当你转换后，你会看到巨大的变化。

When you make the switch, you'll see a massive impact.

它能让你的狗狗更健康、更快乐、更有活力。

It can help your dogs be healthier, happier, and more energetic.

与装在巨大袋子里、只有模糊喂食建议的干粮不同，农夫狗粮是按你家狗狗的食量分装配送的。

And unlike kibble, which comes in a giant bag with vague serving suggestions, the farmer's dog food is delivered in packs portion for your dog.

这能轻松帮助它们保持理想体重——这是预测能否更长寿健康的最重要指标之一。

It makes it easy to help them maintain their ideal weight, which is one of the biggest predictors of a longer, healthier life.

听着，无论是狗还是人，都不该顿顿吃深加工食品。

Look, no one, dog or human should be eating overly processed foods for every meal.

而且不管你的狗狗多大年纪都没关系。

And it doesn't matter how old your dog is.

现在永远是开始为它们健康和幸福投资的好时机。

It's always a great time to start investing in their health and happiness.

今天就试试农夫狗粮吧。

So try the Farmer's Dog today.

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You can get 50% off your first box of fresh, healthy food at the farmersdog.com/rogan.

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Plus, you get free shipping.

只需访问farmersdog.com/rogan。

Just go to the farmersdog.com/rogan.

点击横幅或访问本期节目页面了解更多信息。

Tap the banner or visit this episode's page to learn more.

此优惠仅适用于新客户。

Offer applicable for new customers only.

所以这对你来说仍然是个未解之谜。

So this is still kind of a miss mystery even to you.

即使像你这样研究这么久的人，知道它有效，但也不完全清楚其作用机制。

Even someone who has studied this for this long, you know that it works, but you're not exactly sure how it's working.

这样评价公平吗？

Is that a fair assessment?

这个评价很公平。

That's a fair assessment.

我是说，我们物理学家最讨厌说‘完全搞不懂’这种话。

I mean, when we, as physicists, we hate to say, oh, don't have a clue.

但现在我们知道了所谓的量子纠缠现象，即在量子层面上事物似乎能跨越巨大距离相互关联。

So but we now know there's so called quantum entanglement, which is that things are seem to be connected at a quantum level across great distances.

所以最简单的解释就是：这肯定是量子纠缠的作用。

And so the easy answer is, well, it must be quantum entanglement.

但你知道，这种说法其实只是空话。

But, you know, that doesn't that's just words.

它并没有真正告诉我们它是如何运作的。

It doesn't really tell us how it works.

但是举个例子来说，我们想知道你能走多远。

But but to give you an example, we wondered how far you could go.

于是我们又和英戈·斯旺做了个实验，他是一位顶尖的远程观察者，在NASA飞越之前观察木星。

So we did an experiment again with Ingo Swan, who was such a a really top level remote viewer, to view Jupiter, planet Jupiter, before the flyby, before the NASA flyby.

然后，他就这么做了。

And, so he did.

他描述木星的方式和任何人一样，你知道的，红斑之类的特征。

And he described Jupiter the way anybody might, you know, red spot and all that kind of stuff.

但他说，但是木星周围有一个细环。

But he said, but but there's a thin ring around Jupiter.

我在想是不是我误去了土星，但我真的看到木星周围有个环。

I wonder if I went to Saturn by mistake, but I really see a ring around Jupiter.

当时没人知道木星周围有任何环。

Nobody knew about any ring around Jupiter.

卡尔·萨根碰巧来到实验室。

Carl Sagan happened to come by in the lab.

他说，哦，你觉得这个结果怎么样？

He said, oh, what do you think of this?

我们得到了这个结果。

We we got this result.

他说，木星周围有个环。

He said, ring around Jupiter.

这简直是胡扯。

That's that's nonsense.

但当NASA的飞掠探测器最终抵达时，结果发现木星确实有个小环。

There's no but when the NASA flyby finally got there, it turned out there was a ring, a small ring around Jupiter.

所以我们把这些发现写进了书里出版，在科学界广为人知。

And so we got that in publication in in a book we wrote about all this stuff before, it was known in in the scientific community.

这就是我们的发现——显然连距离都不是大问题。

So that's what we find out that apparently even distances is not a big deal.

另一件我们疑惑的事是，我可以告诉你它不是什么。

The other thing the other thing we wondered, I can tell you what it isn't.

好的。

Okay.

我们曾猜测可能是脑电波。

We thought maybe it was brain waves.

俄罗斯人提出了一个想法。

The Russians came up with an idea.

嗯，脑电波，低频长波，似乎能穿透环境的某些层面。

Well, brain waves, low frequency, long wavelength, they can seemingly get through some some aspects of the environment.

我们设计了一系列实验。

We came up with a series of experiments.

其中一个是：好，让我们把远程观察员派到潜艇上，带他们深入海底。

And one of them was, Okay, let's put our remote viewers on submarines, take them into the depths of the ocean.

因为事实证明海水具有高度导电性。

Because it turns out seawater is highly conductive.

因此，即使在低频下，甚至在脑电波频率下，它也能提供完全的屏蔽。

And so even at low frequencies, even at brainwave frequencies, it would be a complete shield for that.

所以我们借助了其他人的实验——史蒂文·施瓦茨用于寻找考古沉船遗迹等的实验，这个实验最终被证明是成功的。

So we we we piggybacked on somebody else's experiments, Steven Schwartz's experiments using to go find archaeological wrecks and, shipwrecks and so on, which turned out to eventually be a successful experiment.

但不管怎样，我们成功进行了两项实验。

But, anyway, we got to do two experiments.

即使在水下，在海洋环境中，我们也获得了纯净的实验结果。

We got pristine results even with them under there, under the ocean water.

因此我们知道这不是普通的电磁作用

So we know it's not ordinary electromagnetic functioning.

所以我们可以排除这一项了，虽然我们不知道该用什么来替代它，只能说这一定是某种新领域，某种我们还不理解的量子特性，Jen

So we can strike one thing off the list, not that we know what to put on the list in its place other than, you know, it's it's it's gotta be some new field, some quantum aspect that we don't understand, Jen.

我们确实不理解，但你们却能重复这个现象

We don't understand, but yet you could repeat it.

但我们的确能重复它

But we could repeat it.

哇

Wow.

我再给你举个我们遭遇质疑的例子

I'm at I'll give you I'll give you another example of of the skepticism that we got.

顺便说，我其实不能怪他们

And and by the way, I I can't blame them.

SRI有些心理学家曾说：'你们那些愚蠢的ESP实验还在进行啊'

We had some psychologists at SRI, and they said, you've got that stupid ESP experiment stuff going on.

要知道，这会毁掉我们的声誉。

And, you know, this is gonna ruin our reputation.

人们会觉得我们是个不靠谱的地方，这正在损害我们的声誉。

People think that we're, you know, we're a no non we're a nonsense place, and so it's hurting our reputation.

当然，他们不知道这是个高度机密的CIA项目。

Of course, they didn't know it was a highly classified CIA program.

总之，我们的主管就说，那你们怎么看？

So, anyway, so our director said, well, what do you think?

我是说，你们怎么判断这是假的还是什么？

I mean, how would you know if this is false or whatever?

他说，听着。

And he said, look.

把所有实验地点列个清单，那些被调查过的目标地点，然后把针对那些地点观测生成的记录给我们。

Make a list of all experiments, places that have been, investigated gone to as targets, and then give us the transcripts that were generated for those viewings.

不要告诉我们哪份记录对应哪个地点，我们会尝试为每个地点进行排序匹配。

And don't tell us which ones go with which ones, and we'll try to rank rank them for each place.

于是他们不情不愿地照做了。

And so they did that much to their chagrin.

在九项实验系列中，有七项获得了第一名匹配。

Seven of the nine were first place matches in a nine experiment series.

再给你举个例子——顺便说，我...我真的不能抱怨这种怀疑态度。

Give you another example of of and by the way, I I I can't I can't complain about the skepticism.

我的意思是，即便我们做了所有这些，我们依然保持着'这' '这怎么可能'的怀疑。

I mean, even as we're doing all this, we haven't lost our skepticism about how how could this be.

但最终我们陷入了一个境地：这个项目唯一机密的地方就是它本身是个机密。

But we finally we got into a spot where the only thing that was secret about this program was that it was secret.

人们听说我们找来这些人做实验，但我们什么都没发表。

People heard that we had these people coming in and doing experiments, but we weren't publishing anything.

所以我找到中情局的项目经理说：'你得让我们发表点东西，因为这个项目唯一机密的地方就是存在这个机密项目。'

So I went to the CIA contract manager and said, you know, you you gotta let us publish something because the only thing secret about this project is there's a secret project.

这样如果我们发表些东西，就能解决这个问题。

So if we publish something, that that that'll handle that.

你是想通过这样做来吸引更多科学家参与吗？

Did you wanna do that to get more scientists involved?

是的。

Yes.

那是我们的个人权利。

That was our personal Right.

方面。

Aspect.

这样如果有实际数据，更多持怀疑态度的外界人士就会说，等等。

So that if there was actual data, more people who were on the outside skeptical would say, well, hold on.

我为什么持怀疑态度？

Why am I skeptical?

也许这其中真有什么门道，然后你开始思考自己的人生，那些直觉时刻和奇怪的巧合。

Maybe perhaps there's something to this, and then you start considering your own life, these moments of intuition, weird coincidences.

你正想着某人，他们就给你打电话了。

You're thinking about someone they call you.

是的

Yeah.

我们都有这种感觉——确实存在某种东西，只是我们不知道它究竟是什么

We all have this idea that there's something there, but we don't know what it is.

但对于那些声称自己能做到的人，我们总是持怀疑态度

But we're very skeptical of someone who tells us that they can do it.

这种想法确实很合理

And that's that's reasonable to to think that way.

所以这次我们获得发表许可后，考虑到我和同事拉塞尔·塔格都是工程师兼物理学家，就把论文投给了IEEE（电气电子工程师学会）的会议论文集

And so in this case where we got permission to publish something, since we're engineers, Russell Targ, my colleague, and I are, you know, engineers and physicists, we wrote it up for the proceedings of the IEEE, Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers.

这是我们曾发表过技术论文的工程期刊

It's an engineering journal where we had published technical papers.

我当时想，这样发表机会更大些

So I said, well, we have a better chance there.

就把论文寄给了他们

Sent it off to them.

这位编辑曾是贝尔实验室的通讯部门负责人。

The editor was head of communications at Bell Labs.

他回复说，呃，我不知道该怎么处理。

And he comes back and says, well, I don't I don't know.

我们问他，为什么？

And we said, why?

是收到负面评价了吗？

Are you getting bad reviews?

他说，其实评价都挺正面的。

And he says, well, actually, I'm getting good reviews.

但有个重量级人物只给了一句话的评语：'这种事就算真有其事我也不会相信'。

But one really heavy hitter just gave me a one sentence review saying, this is the kind of thing I wouldn't believe in even if it were true.

这算什么意思？

What does that mean?

总之我们说，听着。

So, anyway, we said, look.

听着。

Look.

我我我明白你的问题。

I I I understand your problem.

听着。

Look.

让我们来向你们的工程师展示这些内容。

Let us come and present this stuff to your engineers.

如果他们扔番茄，那就算了。

If they throw tomatoes, okay.

别发表我们的论文。

Don't publish our paper.

但如果他们喜欢，那就发表。

But if they like it, then then publish it.

于是我们去了贝尔实验室，展示了我们的数据。

So we went to Bell Labs, presented our data.

工程师们都很兴奋，试图弄清楚可能的机制等等。

The engineers were all excited trying to figure out what the mechanism could be and so on.

所以我们以为我们稳操胜券了。

So we figured we were home free.

他说，不。

He said, nah.

我我依然如此，于是我们像往常一样打出王牌，好吧。

I I still so then we pull out our Trump card as always, which is, okay.

听着。

Look.

在贝尔实验室做你们自己的实验。

Do your own experiments at Bell Labs.

从你们的工程师中挑选人员。

Pick people from your engineers.

从你们的办公室挑选人员来编制目标清单。

Pick people from your offices to be to make up lists of targets.

在这里挑选人员作为你的盲测组，看看他们能否匹配成功。

Pick people here to be your blind match group to see if they can match them up.

如果你得到和我们一样的结果，那就发表它。

And if you get results like we got, then publish it.

如果没有，就别发表。

If you don't, don't.

他说，好吧。

He said, okay.

这...这很公平。

That's that's fair.

结果他真的做了全套实验，得到了和我们相同的结果。

So it turns out he did the whole thing, got the same kind of results we got.

我们的论文得以发表，刊登在1976年IEEE会刊上。

Our paper got published, 1976 proceedings of the IEEE.

于是突然就有其他人开始说：好吧。

And so that suddenly got other people saying, Okay.

嗯，也许这确实有些道理。

Well, maybe there really is something to this.

事实证明，对于关注这一领域的人来说，都知道罗伯特·约翰和布伦达·邓恩——罗伯特·约翰曾是普林斯顿大学的工程系主任。

So it turns out that, for those who follow the field, know that Robert John and Brenda Dunn Robert John was, head of engineering at, Princeton.

他有个学生想做这类实验，而他当时认为这纯属无稽之谈。

He had a student who wanted to do these kind of experiments, and he thought it was nonsense.

但他们出来听了我们的简报后，他就改变了主意。

But they came out and heard our briefing, and he went back.

长话短说，他们建立了一个持续二十年的研究项目，完全复现了我们的远程观测实验，同时还对量子驱动的随机数发生器进行了效应研究。

Long story short, you set up a, I don't know, twenty year program, completely replicating our remote viewing work and also doing effects on random number generators that were quantum driven.

于是所谓的普林斯顿工程异常研究实验室（PEAR Lab）复现了我们所有的研究成果。

And so the so called PearLab, Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research Lab, replicated all of our work.

很快，这些发现就遍地开花了。

And so pretty soon, it's it's all over the place.

顺便说一句，在冷战缓和期，我们的一些远程观测者曾前往俄罗斯与他们的同行交流，双方还交换了作战故事。

So by the way, at the end of the, sort of Cold War there where there was a detente, some of our remote viewers went over to Russia to talk to their remote viewers, and they traded war stories.

他们，他们经历过类似的事情。

They they, lived through the same kind of kind of thing.

事情就是这样。

So there it is.

这太有趣了，我们几乎没考虑过这一点。

It's so interesting that we almost didn't consider that.

想象一下，如果你没有遇到英戈·斯旺，没有让他去影响那个量子芯片。

Just imagine you not running into Ingo Swan, you not asking him to affect that quantum chip.

想象一下俄罗斯在做所有这些事，而美国却完全没有参与其中。

Imagine where Russia's doing all this stuff and The United States never gets involved in it at all.

那本来是有可能发生的。

That that could have happened.

那确实有可能发生。

That could have happened.

我是说，这真的，你知道，就像硬币最微小的翻转那样偶然。

I mean, it was really, you know, the tiniest flip of a coin that that that happened.

所以对我来说，这意味着尽管我对这类事情毫无兴趣，但这个完全随机的事件还是发生了。

So so what that means is, for me personally, is that even though I had no interest in in all that kind of stuff, this totally random event happened.

而当我建立起愿意接手不可能任务的名声后，这就是为什么当UAP（不明空中现象）或UFO问题再次浮出水面时，人们会找上我。

And then once I built up a reputation for being willing to take on things that are impossible, then that's why, when the UAP, the UFO issue, kind of rose up again, who are you gonna call?

所以阿尔·普托夫。

So Al Putoff.

阿尔...好吧，就这样我接到了电话。

Al Well, there I I get my call.

那么最初接触UAP现象是什么时候？具体是什么情况？

So what was the initial introduction to the UAP phenomenon, and when was this?

嗯，最早是在2004年有过一次接触。

Well, there was an early introduction in, 2004.

可能更早一点，在九十年代，我当时在为罗伯特·比奇洛的比奇洛航空航天公司工作。

Well, may maybe a little earlier in in in the nineties, I was doing work for Robert Bigelow at Bigelow Aerospace.

除了他的航空航天业务外，他还发射了两个环绕地球的单元，并制造了连接到空间站的模块等等这类东西。

And, in addition to his, you know, aerospace stuff, he put two units, circling the earth, and he made the module that got attached to the space station and all that kind of stuff.

但他对UFO之类的事物也非常感兴趣。

But he was also very much interested in UFOs and that kind of thing.

所以我当时与他有合作关系。

And so I was I was, you know, involved with him.

大约在那段时间，我接到了来自华盛顿特区一个智库负责人的电话。

And around that time, I had gotten a call from somebody I knew in Washington DC, head of a think tank.

我不能透露他的名字，但他说需要我来华盛顿参与一个小型项目简报。

I can't name him, but he said, I need you to come to Washington to be part of a little project, a little briefing.

我拒绝了。

And I said, no.

我说我没时间。

I don't have the time.

我现在实在太忙了。

Right now, I'm just I'm just too busy.

他说，听着。

He says, look.

过来。

Come.

这将是你人生中最重要的会议。

It'll be the most important meeting you've ever had in your life.

鉴于我对他有所了解，因为我曾与他合作过其他项目，也为海军工作过等等，于是我说，好吧。

Well, since I had him calibrated because I had done other work with him and for the Navy and so on, I said, okay.

我会来的。

I'll I'll I'll come.

于是我就去了那里。

So so I showed up there.

我见到了一些认识的人，包括中情局的前合同经理、国防情报局的人员，还有许多军方人士等等。

And I saw people, some of whom I knew, including my ex contract manager from CIA, people from DIA, a lot of military people, and so on.

他让我们都坐下后说：好了。

So he sat us all down and said, okay.

情况是这样的。

Here's the deal.

这就是我邀请大家来的原因。

Here's why I've invited you all here.

这么说吧，他说美国、俄罗斯和中国都获得了坠毁的外星飞行器，我们有证据证明这一点，还有非人类的尸体。

Let's just say, he says, that The United States, Russia, and China have obtained ET craft that have crashed, and we have proof of that, bodies that aren't human.

所以问题是，这些信息能向公众公开吗？

And so the question is, can this be released to the public?

这会产生什么影响？

What effect would it have?

我和其他人——后来通过交谈才知道——我们都觉得，哇，这太酷了。

So I and and the other people, I found out by talking to them later, we thought, oh, this is cool.

我是说，也许我们能促成某种形式的真相公开。

I mean, maybe we can get, you know, some kind of disclosure here.

于是他说：'我们接下来要这么做。'

And so he said, here's here's what we're gonna do.

我们要列一份清单，说明这类信息公开会对文化产生哪些影响。

We're gonna make up a list of what would be affected in the culture with this kind of a disclosure.

顺便说一句，到这个时候，我们仍然不知道他说的这些是真实情况，还是假设性的？

And by the way, at this point, we still didn't know is is he saying that that's true stuff, or is he is this a hypothetical?

总之。

Or anyway.

所以，不管怎样，先列个清单。

So, anyway, make a list.

于是我们列了个很长的清单，大概有60项左右。

So we came up with a long list, like, I don't know, 60 items or something.

比如，股市可能会受到影响。

You say, oh, well, stock market might be affected.

宗教可能会受到影响。

Religions might be affected.

你懂的吧？

You know?

诸如此类。

Whatever.

政府？

Government?

政府受影响，政策就会受影响。

Government affected policies be affected.

你知道，政治肯定会受到影响。

You know, politics would certainly be affected.

然后对每个项目，我们需要给它从正九到负九打分，评估影响强度及是正面还是负面。

And then for each item, we had to go give it a score from plus nine to minus nine as to how intense the effect would be and whether it's positive or negative.

于是我们分成小组，我们的小组负责大约八个项目。

So we broke up into groups, and our group had our list of eight or so.

我们逐项讨论，最终得出的净评分都是负数。

So we went down our list, and it turned out that we ended up say getting net negative numbers.

让我解释一下为什么会出现负数。

And let let me let me tell you why you you can get negative numbers.

清单靠后的项目中，我们深入探讨了一个假设：如果非人类飞行器坠毁回收的材料交给了A公司，而B公司没拿到样本会怎样。

One of the things down toward the bottom of the list, and we really got into the weeds, was, well, suppose materials from a crash retrieval of a nonhuman craft was given to corporation a, but corporation b didn't get any samples.

几年后，A公司靠着他们得到的东西赚得盆满钵满。

And then years later, corporation a is making lots of money based on what they got.

与此同时，B公司已经破产，然后他们发现自己被排除在外。

Meanwhile, corporation b has gone bankrupt, and and then they find out they were excluded.

他们最终会起诉这些公司，起诉政府。

Well, they're gonna end up suing the corporations, suing the government.

当你深入细节时，事情真的会变得棘手。

I mean, it really gets gnarly when you get into the weeds and into the details.

所以在我们这个八人小组讨论后，我们说，这个情况会得出一个负数。

And so as it turns out, with our group of eight or so, we said, you know, this this we get a negative number.

结果所有小组都得出了负数。

Well, it turned out that all the groups got negative numbers.

那次演练的结论就是：如果你在考虑公开，还是算了吧。

So the outcome of that exercise was, if you're thinking about disclosure, forget it.

这

It's

这是发生在乔治·赫伯特·沃克·布什时期吗？

Was this during George Herbert Walker Bush's?

不是。

No.

是在小布什时期。

It was during Bush two.

小布什。

Bush two.

确切地说是乔治·布什。

George Bush rather.

乔治·布什。

George Bush.

对。

Yeah.

W.

W.

对。

Right.

所以当这一切发生时，你们仍然不知道他们掌握了什么。

So when this was all going on, you still didn't know what they had.

不知道他们掌握了什么。

Didn't know what they had.

这只是

This was just

他们当时说

they were saying

这可能只是假设，或者他试图告诉我们些什么，但他不肯明说。

This could be hypothetical or he could be trying to tell us something, but he wouldn't say.

有意思。

Interesting.

那他们给了你多长时间来整理这份清单并生成这些数字？

And how long how much time did they give you to compile this list and to generate these numbers of plus

加减呢？

and minus?

两三天。

Two or three days.

我现在记不清了。

I I don't recall right now.

你是如何给股市这类事物分配数字的？

How did you attribute numbers to things like the stock market?

你是怎么判断那会是正面还是负面的？

How did you figure out how that would be negatively or positively?

嗯，你知道，我们那基本上就是一种直觉反应。

Well, you know, you we it was just a gut response, basically.

你进行了远程观测吗？

You remote viewed it?

没有。

No.

不。

No.

没做过。

Didn't do that.

没有。

No.

但你做过吗？

But did you?

顺便说一下，在远程观测项目中，他们告诉我们的一件事就是：听着。

By the way, in the remote viewing program, one of the things they told us, look.

你们这些运营项目的人，千万别想着自己尝试远程观测。

You guys that are running this program, don't you ever think about remote viewing yourself.

我们在LSD时代就学到，如果实验者涉入他们研究对象的领域，就会失去客观性。

We learned in the LSD days that if the experimenters get involved in the subject they're researching, they lose their objectivity.

别以为你能偷偷尝试还能蒙混过关，因为我们能用测谎仪抓住你。

And don't think you can sneak away and get away with it because we'll get you on the polygraph.

所以不行。

And so so no.

那件事从未发生过。

And that never never did.

别对自己进行远程观测。

Don't remote view yourself.

什么什么

What what

真是件奇怪的事。

a bizarre thing to tell someone.

他们就是这么说的。

That's what they that's what they said.

总之，回到正题。

So so anyway, But, anyway, back back to this.

我们得出了数据，觉得这看起来不是个好主意。

We so we came up with our numbers and and said, you know, this does not look like a good idea.

所以当时，那就是我们的观点。

So at that time, that that was the viewpoint.

现在随着深入探讨，此刻我有了不同的看法。

Now as we'll get into, at this point, I have a different viewpoint.

我认为应该比目前所显示的更加透明公开。

I think there should be more disclosure than than, is apparent in the

这种情况更为普遍。

That's much more common.

确实普遍得多。

Much more common.

这种想法不仅在学术界，甚至在政府人员中也更为常见。

That thought is more more common with not just academics, but even government people.

连政府人员也这样认为。

Even government people.

对吧？

Right?

我想

I think

事实上，我有个很好的例子，那就是爱德华·泰勒，氢弹之父，曾参与曼哈顿计划。

more In fact, I have I have a great example of that, and that is Edward Teller, father of the h bomb, involved in the Manhattan Project.

你想想，如果有人想保守国家安全相关的秘密，那应该就是他这样的人。

You think if anybody wanted to keep secrets about national security, it would be him.

但他曾说过一句非常有力的话，这话某种程度上推动了我改变观点——我们到底该不该公开这些信息？

But one of the strongest statements he made, which actually was kind of a driver in my shifting my viewpoint about, well, should we come out with this or not?

他说，在探索核能时，我们把曼哈顿计划列为高度机密。

He said, you know, in exploring, nuclear energy, we had the Manhattan Project highly classified.

尽管如此，我们和苏联人还是步步为营地同步发展。

But nonetheless, we and the Russians kind of marched along step by step.

但在电子技术领域，我们没有对电路板这类技术进行保密。

But in electronics, we didn't classify electronics, you know, circuit boards and all that kind of stuff.

结果我们像火箭般腾飞，把苏联远远甩在了后面。

And we took off like a rocket and left rush Russia in the dust.

因此他的观点是，即使在国家安全领域保持更高的透明度也是更有利的选择。

So his viewpoint was that having more openness even in national security areas is a better bet.

这让我开始思考，尽管我参与了几十年来的高度机密、不对公众公开的UAP调查项目，但这种观点影响了我的看法。

And so that made me think even though I've been part of, as it turns out, decades long, highly classified, not for the street, UAP investigations, that that sort of affected my thinking about it.

于是我开始更倾向于认为我们应该公开这些信息。

And I became more, open to the idea that, you know, we should do that.

不过我真正正式参与的方式是，在2008年左右，当时参议院多数党领袖哈里·里德、来自夏威夷的丹尼尔·井上、以及来自阿拉斯加的泰德·史蒂文斯等人牵头。

So but the way, the way I I got actually more officially involved was that, as it turns out, in 2008, I think it was, Harry Reid, who was at the time senate majority leader, Daniel Inouye from Hawaii, Ted Stevens from Alaska.

他们是所谓的'八人帮'成员，因此能获得比大多数人更深入的幕后情况简报。

They're part of the gang of eight, so called, so they get better briefings than most people on what's going on beyond the scenes.

说到这里你可能会想，UFO这些事情不是早就销声匿迹了吗？

So at that point, you might think, well, UFO stuff, I mean, that's all dead.

让我先给你一些背景信息。

Let me give you a little background first.

50年代和60年代时，我们曾开展过'信号计划'、'怨恨计划'和'蓝皮书计划'等项目。

And that is, you know, back in the fifties and sixties, we had Project Sign, Project Grudge, project Blue Book.

然后他们让科罗拉多大学的康登委员会调查这个领域，结果他发表声明说，这里什么都没有。

And then they had the Condon Committee at University of Colorado examine the area and say, he came out with this thing saying, there's nothing here.

不值得在这上面花费任何时间。

It's not not worth the effort spending any time on it.

实际上，如果你读过康登报告，就会发现其中有一份深度报告列举了各种证明这种现象真实存在的理由。

Actually, the Condon Report, if you read it, there's a deep report showing all kinds of reasons why this is real.

但媒体大多只读了前言部分，他在前言中说'哦，这里什么都没有'。

And then there's the forward, which most media read, in which he said, oh, not nothing here.

别担心这个。

Don't worry about it.

所以1969年那份报告发布后，如果你致电空军公共事务办公室询问'关于UFO有什么进展吗？'

So after 1969, which is when that report came out, if you called, Air Force, Public Affairs Office and said, well, what's going on with UFOs?

他们会说'哦，没有'。

They oh, no.

没有。

No.

我们在1969年就放弃了所有那些东西。

We give up all that stuff, back in 1969.

事实是，那份由博伦德将军签署的终止蓝皮书计划的备忘录中，用小字注明：任何可能影响国家安全的事项，我们都应继续追踪。

The truth of the matter is that the very memo, the canceled Blue Book by general Bohlen der, had down the fine print, but anything that might affect national security, we should keep track of.

所以现在我们来到了2017年。

So so now we come up to, you know, 2017.

这些知道仍有相关事件发生的参议员们决定应该启动一个新项目。

These senators who knew that there was still stuff going on decided there should be a new program.

于是他们请国防情报局的顶级物理学家吉姆·拉卡茨基——他是推进系统和火箭技术领域的顶尖专家之一——发布了一份提案征集。

And so they asked, the top physicists at DIA, Jim Lakatsky, who is one of the top physicists on propulsion and rocketry and so on, to put out a request for proposal.

就这样，提案征集发出去了。

And so that went out.

实际上，是罗伯特·比奇洛接手了这个项目。

And so, actually, Robert Bigelow picked it up.

他说：好的。

And he said, okay.

我们会做这件事的。

We'll we'll do this.

于是他接手了这个项目。

And so he then got the program.

由于我之前与比奇洛有过合作，他邀请我参与这个项目。

And since I had been involved with Bigelow, he asked me to be part of the program.

可以说，我就是从那时开始正式深入调查这个问题的。

So that's when I got, you might say, officially involved in in really digging into the the issue.

你当时的看法是什么？

And what was your perspective at that point?

你在乔治·布什政府时期就接触过这件事，那次谈话后你的看法有什么变化？

So you you had this thing during the George Bush administration, and what was your perspective after that conversation?

你是否认为他们确实掌握了什么，比如罗斯威尔坠毁现场，或者其他东西？

Did you think what they do have something, the Crash Roswell site, maybe something else.

通过与其他人的交谈，你是否了解到更多信息？

Did you know more from talking to other people?

你之前听说过什么风声吗？

Had you heard whispers?

比如，你都知道些什么？

Like, what did you know?

我知道的并不多。

What I knew was not much.

我是说，确实听到过一些传言，但并没有真正深入思考过这件事。

I mean, yeah, I heard whispers, but I didn't get, you know, really involved in in thinking about it.

要知道，一个优秀的物理学家会认为这些都是阴谋论的胡言乱语。

I mean, you know, a good physicist realizes this is tinfoil hat conspiracy stuff.

明白吗？

You know?

但你已经有过远程观察的经历了，

But you had already had experience with remote viewing,

所以你能理解这种幽默感。

so you can the whole sense of humor.

有这个问题。

Got that problem.

所以，但当他们提出我们应该对此进行更深入的研究时，到那时，我已经，你知道，作为一个物理学家，我是说，经过这些年。

So, but when they came up with the idea we should do another deeper dive into this, and by that time, I was, you know I mean, as a physicist, I mean, through the years.

我是说，我是《星际迷航》的粉丝，你知道，喜欢《星际迷航》这类东西。

I mean, I I was a Star Trek fan and, you know, Star Trek fan and all that kind of stuff.

而且，作为一个物理学家，我会听说这些UFO目击事件等等。

And, as a physicist, I would hear about these UFO sightings and so on.

所以我一直很好奇，怎么可能有人拥有那种看起来像那样的推进系统？

So I always wondered about, how could somebody really have any kind of propulsion that would look like that?

所以当这个项目设立时，结果我的具体任务就是，好吧。

So when this program got set up, it turned out my particular assignment was, okay.

让我们看看可能支撑这些东西的所有物理和工程原理。

Let's look at all the physics and engineering that might be behind this stuff.

顺便说一下，我们会安排你获取一些材料的权限。

And by the way, we will arrange for you to get access to some materials.

好的。

Okay.

没问题。

Fine.

那就是我的任务。

So that that was my tasking.

所以我说，好吧。

And so I said, okay.

具体细节不便多说，但我确实与一些航空航天高管进行了多次沟通，试图获取他们可能拥有的相关材料。

So I can't get into a lot of detail, but I did do a lot of back and forth with some aerospace executives about getting access in case they had any materials and that kind of stuff.

最终他们还是拒绝了。

It's very so they finally said, no.

如果是那种情况，信息会被划分得太细。

It's it's, if that were the case, it'd be too compartmentalized.

我们无法分享这些。

We we we can't share this.

尽管你们有正式项目，我是说，你们有绝密级、敏感隔离信息、伽马级、人类控制系统这些权限都拿到了。

Even though you have an official program, I mean, you got Top Secret, SCI, Gamma, HCS, you got all these clearances.

但如果我们有材料，那也属于高度机密。

But if we had materials, it'd be too highly classified.

我们...我们...我们不能分享这些。

We we we couldn't share them.

天啊。

Jeez.

所以进行了大量谈判。

So a lot of negotiation went on.

我是说，我和副总裁花了很长时间沟通。

I mean, I spent a lot time with the vice president.

除非有值得谈判的内容。

Unless there's something to negotiate about.

确实如此。

Exactly.

如果没什么可商量的，哈尔，你说过我们没有材料。

If there's nothing to negotiate about, you did say, Hal, we don't have materials.

不是说你的权限不够，我们甚至无法讨论这个。

Wouldn't say you don't have enough clearance for us to even discuss this.

正是如此。

Exactly.

所以他们正在暗示。

So They're tipping their hat.

他们已经暗示了。

They're already tipping their hat.

那么，接下来要去的第二个地方是，好吧。

So, anyway, the second place to go then was, okay.

他们不会分享他们的材料。

They're not gonna share their materials.

我几乎可以肯定会有这些材料。

I'm gonna almost assuredly have them.

假设他们当时分享了这些材料。

Suppose they had shared them.

我们本可以怎么做呢？

What would we have done?

我们本可以咨询世界各地的领域专家。

Well, we would have gone to subject matter experts all around the world.

我们会给他们一些材料。

We'd give them some materials.

我们会说，这些来自俄罗斯潜艇或其他什么来源。

We'd say, you know, this came from a Russian sub or, you know, whatever.

请给出你们的最佳研究成果等等。

Give us your best output and so on.

所以我说，好吧。

So I said, okay.

既然我们无法获取并共享这些材料，那就让我去联系所有我们本会咨询的领域专家，告诉他们我们正在为比格洛航空航天公司做一项调查。

Since we're not able to get materials and share them, let me go to all of the subject matter experts that we would have gone to and say, we're doing a survey for Bigelow Aerospace.

他想知道到2050年你们这个领域会发展成什么样

He wants to know where will your field be in the year 2050.

所以我们想，好吧

So we figured, okay.

我们将获得对他们领域未来可能性的最佳评估

We'd get the best sort of assessment of possible futures for their fields.

我意识到你可能无法立即接触到这些

And and, I realize you probably don't, have immediate access to this.

但为了让你们有个概念，我们通过联系这些人获得的部分论文——你们会看到我们有多认真

But just to give you an idea, some of the papers that we got by going out to these people, I mean and you'll see how serious we were.

反物质聚变推进、超导体与重力研究、正电子航空航天推进、曲率驱动、暗能量、额外维度、先进核能推进

Anutronic fusion propulsion, superconductors and gravity research, positron aerospace propulsion, warp drive, dark energy, extra dimensions, advanced nuclear propulsion.

杰米已经把它放在这里了

Jamie's got it up here.

是的

Yeah.

所以这只是我安排领导者们撰写的38篇论文中的前几篇

So so this is just the first few of 38 papers that I, arranged for leaders to to come up with.

那么这是基于当前技术水平的预测，如果你要推断到205年它会发展到什么程度

So this is based on projections from where technology currently sits to, if you extrapolate where it's gonna be in 2050 based

到50年

on '50.

他们正在研究的领域

What they're working on.

对

Right.

时空、度量工程、可穿越虫洞、星际之门

Spacetime, metric engineering, traversable wormholes, stargates.

你看，我们可不是在开玩笑

So you see, we weren't kidding around.

好吧，当你们开始研究曲速引擎、暗能量、额外维度、脑机接口时

Well, when you started getting the warp drive, dark energy, extra dimensions, brain machine interfaces.