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乔·罗根播客。
Joe Rogan podcast.
快来看看。
Check it out.
《乔·罗根体验》。
The Joe Rogan experience.
展示我的一天。
Showing my day.
晚上听乔·罗根播客。
Joe Rogan podcast by night.
一整天。
All day.
你好，贝丝。
Hello, Beth.
你好。
Hello.
再次见到你真是太好了。
It's very great to see you again.
我很高兴能来到这里。
I am pleased to be here.
能与你交谈真是非常有趣，你们在Colossal所做的一切简直令人难以置信。
It's been really interesting getting to talk to you and communicating with you, and all the stuff that you guys have done at Colossal has been insane.
不如你先向大家介绍一下你的背景和你的工作？
So why don't you just tell everybody what your background is and what you do?
我是一名科学家。
I'm a scientist.
我从事一个疯狂的领域——古DNA研究，有时也叫古基因组学。
I work in a crazy field called ancient DNA, sometimes called paleogenomics.
这意味着我们要走遍世界，挖掘各种东西，然后从中提取DNA。
It means we go out into the world, we dig shit up, and we extract DNA from it.
最棒的是这就像成为现代探险家一样。
And what is fantastic about that is it's being a modern day explorer.
我有机会去往各地。
I get to go somewhere.
我有机会发现全新的事物，彻底改写我们原有的认知，这简直太棒了。
I get to find out something new that completely rewrites what we thought we knew, and it's brilliant.
而且我经常需要与人争辩。
And I get to fight with people a lot.
因为我热衷辩论，最近我辞去了学术工作，转任Colossal公司的首席科学官——就是刚培育出那些冰原狼的公司。
And because I love to fight, I recently quit my academic job and moved to become the chief science officer at Colossal, the company that has just made those direwolves.
你为什么喜欢与人争辩呢？
Why do you like to fight with people?
噢，其实我并不喜欢与人争辩。
Oh, I don't really like to fight with people.
只是觉得此刻这么说比较应景。
I just felt like it was the right thing to say at this minute.
虽然最终总会陷入争论，但这并非我所愿，而是因为我觉得必须捍卫我认为正确的科研方式。
I end up fighting with people, though, not because I want to, but because I feel like I have to defend what I think is the way that we should be doing science.
嗯，这确实是个有争议的话题，你们绝对是开拓者。
Well, it's certainly a controversial subject, and you guys are certainly groundbreakers.
所以每当出现有争议的话题和开拓者时，毫无疑问会遭到很多反对。
So whenever there's a controversial subject and people are groundbreakers, you're, without doubt, going to get a lot of pushback.
很多人只是想要关注。
And a lot of people, they just want attention.
还有很多人因为你们获得关注而感到愤怒。
A lot of people that are angry that you're getting attention.
这里面有很多复杂的因素。
It's there's a lot of stuff going on.
是啊。
Yeah.
我认为学术界尤其存在这种严重的稀缺心态，这导致人们对一切都持消极态度。
There's a big I think in academia in particular, there's this big scarcity mindset, and this leads people to be kinda negative about everything.
比如，'这太难实现了'之类的。
Like, that's gonna be too hard.
如果我说那很好，那就意味着我想做的事可能得不到那笔资金。
If I say that that's good, then that means that the thing that I wanna do probably isn't gonna get that money.
或者如果你获得了关注，就意味着我得不到关注。
Or if you get attention, that means I can't get attention.
我认为这种心态导致了阻碍创新的消极情绪。
And it leads to this negativity that I think stifles innovation.
还有很多人把持着门户之见。
There's a lot of gatekeeping too.
你知道，我们最近就讨论过这个问题。
You know, we talked about that recently.
有很多人想成为唯一被允许讨论或研究某些领域的人。
There's a lot of people that want to be the only people that are allowed to either discuss or work on things.
是啊。
Yeah.
就像，我这辈子都在研究这个。
Like, I've spent my whole life working on this.
因此，我是唯一的专家。
Therefore, I am the only expert.
如果有人说的与我所认为的真相相悖，那他们就是错的。
And if anybody says something that disagrees with what I believe to be true, they're just wrong.
我甚至都不会去考虑。
I'm not even gonna think about it.
他们就是错的。
They're just wrong.
虽然不幸，但幸运的是我们生活在一个非常独特的时代，你可以做播客，而播客能获得极大的关注。
It's unfortunate, but, fortunately, we live in a very unique time where you can do podcasts, and podcasts get extraordinary amounts of attention.
所以我认为这也是人们如此强烈反对的原因之一。
And so I think that's also one of the reasons why people push back so much as well.
因为他们不喜欢这样。
It's because they they don't like that.
他们不喜欢存在这样一个独特的传播网络。
They don't like that there's this unique distribution network.
是啊。
Yeah.
总会有人反对的。
There are gonna be people.
我的同事们会因为我过来和你谈话而生气，这正是问题的一部分。
There are gonna be colleagues of mine that are angry with me that I have come here to talk to you, and that is part of the problem.
确实。
Yeah.
这看起来有点可笑。
It just seems kinda silly.
你明白吗？
You know?
但抛开这些不谈，这个话题本身确实非常吸引人。
But the subject without all that stuff, the subject is absolutely fascinating.
那么你是怎么开始研究这个的？
So how did you get started in this?
比如，你刚开始职业生涯时最初想做什么？
Like, what did you initially wanna do when you first started your career?
我其实是从广播电视新闻业起步的。
I actually started in broadcast journalism.
真的吗？
I Really?
我上高中时，就坚信自己想从事广播电视新闻工作。
When I was in high school, I was convinced that I wanted to work in broadcast journalism.
我在当地电视台找到了一份工作。
I got a job working at the local TV station.
我是在乔治亚州西北角的罗马市长大的。
I grew up in Rome, Georgia, Northwest Corner Of Georgia.
我在电视台先是操作摄像机、帮人撰写新闻稿，后来才获得出镜机会。
And I got a job at the TV station where I was first operating the camera and helping people write copy, and then I got to be on air.
我试镜了一个早间节目的岗位，需要在整点后的24分和54分插播本地新闻，但必须凌晨就起床去工作。
I auditioned for a spot in the morning where I would do local cut ins on headline news in the, like, twenty four and fifty four after the hour, but I had to wake up really early in the morning and go to work.
我当时还在上高中。
I was in high school.
去上班，写脚本，上电视，学习读提词器。
Go to work, write the script, go on TV, learn to read the teleprompter.
这相当有趣，最终我确信这就是我想从事的职业。
It was pretty fun and eventually got and I was convinced that this is what I wanted to do with my career.
我进入了佐治亚大学。
Went I to the University of Georgia.
他们有一个很棒的广播电视新闻学院。
They have a fantastic broadcast journalism school.
我起初在当地一家广播电台担任新闻总监。
I started off as the news director at one of the local radio stations.
这份工作，怎么说呢，和大学新生的生活不太兼容。
And this job, let's just say, wasn't particularly compatible with being a freshman in college.
有些早晨我被锁在浴室外面，而我只睡了一个半小时，因为前一天晚上我外出到太晚，做了些未成年人不该做的事。
There were mornings when I was locked out of the bathroom, but I had only been asleep for one and a half hours after being out for too late at night doing things that I shouldn't have been doing because I was underaged.
对吧？
Right?
还得去工作写新闻稿，然后上广播电台播音。
And had to go to work to write the news and then be on this broadcast radio station.
那真是太糟糕了。
It was terrible.
总之，我是怎么从那里转到科学领域的？
Anyway, how did I move from there to science?
是啊。
Yeah.
我选修了这门超棒的课程。
I took this took this amazing class.
这和我最近在加州大学圣克鲁兹分校教的一门课很像，是野外地质与考古学项目。
It's similar to a class that I ended up teaching at UC Santa Cruz recently where it was a field geology and archaeology program.
我们从东海岸开始考察。
And we started off on the East Coast.
我们学习了岩石知识以及如何鉴别矿物。
We learned about rocks and how to identify minerals.
然后我们驱车穿越全国，在国家公园里露营，亲身了解北美的历史、地质演变和人文历程，一切都在实地体验中学习。
And then we drove across the country and slept outside in national parks and learned about the history of North America, the geological history, the human history, everything while being there in person.
沿着西海岸一路北上，又驾车环游全国返回。
Drove up the West Coast, drove back around the country.
那段旅程持续了九周。
It was nine weeks.
当时我就在想，这就是我想讲述的故事。
And I thought to myself while I was there, this is the story that I wanna tell.
我想展示人类如何一次次改变这片土地，以及我们如何有机会成为更具创造性的环境管理者。
I I want to show how people have changed this landscape over and over and over again and about the opportunities that we have to be able to become more creative controllers of this landscape.
所以我决定攻读科学学位——毕竟广播新闻是我的老本行。
So I thought, I'll get a degree in science because my I know how to do broadcast journalism.
你知道，这就是那种自以为精通某事的无知表现。
You know, the the ignorance of somebody who thinks they're an expert in something.
我知道怎么做那件事，所以我就去做另一件事。
I know how to do that, so I'll just do this other thing.
这就是事情的来龙去脉。
And that's that's the history of it.
我就这样不知不觉地成为了科学家。
I just kinda got sucked into being the scientist.
我写过几本畅销书，这依然是我试图回归本心的努力。
I've written a couple of popular books, which is still me trying to reach back out.
我想成为传播者，但同时也想当科学家，因为这太有趣了。
I wanna be a communicator, but I also wanna be a scientist because it's so much fun.
所以你只是追随了自己的热爱，这是能获得的最佳建议。
So you just followed your fascination, which is the best advice anyone could ever get.
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Yes.
我是如何选择古DNA研究领域的？
How did I pick a field working in ancient DNA?
这完全是我未曾预料到的。
This is something I had no idea about.
最终我既没拿到想要的奖学金，也没能进入心仪的大学，只能在被录取的大学里漫无目的地游荡。
I ended up not getting the scholarship that I wanted to get and not getting into the university that I wanted to get into, but wandering around the halls of the university that I did get into.
然后我遇到了艾伦·库珀，他是90年代末全球少数几位能建立特殊实验室的人之一，这种实验室专门用于从骨骼中提取DNA。
And I met this guy called Alan Cooper, who was one of the few people in the world at the time, this was the late nineteen nineties, who'd set up the special kind of lab that you need to be able to extract DNA from bones.
这些DNA保存状况极差，所以我们必须配备专门建造的无尘室，确保不会因唾液或掉落的睫毛污染样本——否则完好的现代DNA会被优先扩增。
So this DNA is in terrible condition, so we have to have a a purpose built clean room to make sure that we don't spit in something or drop an eyelash in something because then your DNA, which is in great condition, will be the thing that we amplify.
当时我们就有这样一个实验室，我觉得这很酷，因为我本就对地质学感兴趣。
So we had one of these labs, and I thought, well, that's kind of cool because I was interested in geology.
我也对人类历史充满好奇。
I was interested in human history.
或许我能用这个技术来讲述从未被讲述的故事，或是改写我们反复传颂的旧篇章。
Maybe I can use this as a way of telling stories that haven't been told before or rewriting the stories that we keep telling.
那是一个我们对人类历史和祖先了解甚多，但仍有更多待发掘的时期。
This was a time where we were learning a lot about human history and human ancestry, and there was a lot more to be learned.
所以我觉得这很酷，但当时并不确定。
And so I thought this would be cool, but I wasn't sure.
当艾伦说'这应该挺酷的'时。
When Alan said, well, you know, it'd be cool.
这会很有趣。
This would be fun.
另外，如果你加入我的实验室，你就能去西伯利亚。
Plus, if you join my lab, you can go to Siberia.
然后我就加入了。
And I was in.
我当时就想，好啊。
I was like, yeah.
当然。
Sure.
这就是我的决定。
That that's that's the deal for me.
我要去西伯利亚。
I'll go to Siberia.
哇哦。
Woah.
所以你是被派去西伯利亚的？
So you got sent to Siberia?
在苏联时期，他们通常会把坏分子发配到那里。
That's usually what they do to you in the Soviet Union when you're bad.
是啊。
Yeah.
嗯，我是说，我在西伯利亚确实有过几次不太愉快的经历，但总体来说还是挺有意思的。
Well, I mean, I have had several not amazing experiences in Siberia, but overall, it's been it's been fun.
我去过好几次了。
I've been a couple of times.
是啊。
Yeah.
你是什么季节去的？
What time of year did you go?
夏天。
Summer.
哇。
Wow.
是的。
Yeah.
我第一次去是为了参加一个会议。
So the first time I went, it was for a meeting.
我先在莫斯科待了一段时间，作为一位俄罗斯合作者的客人。
And I spent some time in Moscow first as a guest of one of my Russian collaborators.
然后我们前往雅库茨克参加会议，并登上一艘船。
And then we went out to this meeting in Yakutsk, and we got a on a boat.
我对西伯利亚的了解就是，一切都会出错。
What I learned about Siberia is that everything goes wrong.
没有任何基础设施能按预期方式运作，这是我最初就学到的。
There's no bit of infrastructure that functions the way it's supposed to function, and I learned that initially.
我们最终登上了这艘晚点两小时的船。
We ended up on this boat that was two hours late.
天气又热又闷，蚊子还特别多。
It was warm and hot, and there are so many mosquitoes.
我正想问你这件事。
I was gonna ask you about that.
我听说那里的蚊子多得吓人。
I've heard the mosquitoes are insane.
简直疯狂。
So crazy.
比如有一次我在泰梅尔半岛的中北部地区，我们带了一个奇怪的帐篷，搭建起来后可以进去摘下面罩，因为在那里必须一直戴着防护头罩。
Like, one of the times I was out in Taimyr, the North Central Taimyr Peninsula, and we had brought with us this weird tent that we'd set up so that we could go inside and take the masks, take the masks off of our face because you always have to wear a hood.
否则，你会吸进蚊子。
Otherwise, you'll be breathing mosquitoes.
我们走到外面玩了个游戏，就是在脸前拍手然后数打死了多少只。
And we were going outside and playing this game where we would just clap our hands in front of our face and then count how many you killed.
有一次，我一巴掌打死了大约35只蚊子。
And one time, I killed something like 35 mosquitoes in one clap.
哇哦。
And Woah.
简直太可怕了。
It's just awful.
太难受了。
It's it's miserable.
所以它们试图隔着衣服叮你。
So they're trying to sting you through your clothes.
它们就是
They're just
是啊。
Yeah.
而且个头还特别大。
And they're big too.
对吧？
Right?
嗯，这要看是什么季节。
Well, it depends the time of year.
在季节初期，它们体型很大，很容易就能抓到。
And early in the season, they're really big, and you can catch them fast.
之后会有不同品种出现，体型越来越小。
And then they get different species come out that are smaller and smaller.
到了季节末期，它们就变得非常小了。
And toward the end of the season, they're really tiny.
有一次我在阿拉斯加北部的伊奇皮克帕克河上，我们顺流而下寻找猛犸象骨头、象牙之类的东西。
Once I was up in the North Of Alaska on the Ichpikpuk River, we were floating down the river looking for mammoth bones and tusks and things like that.
头几天一直刮风，所以还好。
And it had been windy for the first few days, so it was fine.
其实这是我第一次实地考察。
And I was this was my first time out in the field, actually.
那可是阿拉斯加北部，我当时觉得这些蚊子。
It was Northern Alaska, I was like, these mosquitoes.
人们总跟我说这里有蚊子。
People keep telling me there's mosquitoes.
他们纯属扯淡。
They're full of shit.
这地方根本没蚊子。
There's no mosquitoes out here.
对吧？
Right?
风一直刮个不停。
The wind is blowing.
然后风停了，我就想，哦，完蛋了。
Then the wind dies down, and then it's like, oh, fuck.
这简直太糟糕了。
Like, this is awful.
有只驼鹿在我们前面走了一段时间，这可怜的动物，我们沿着河流走，它每走几步就会把整个身体浸入冰冷的河水里，然后再浮上来。
There was a moose that was ahead of us for a while, and this poor animal, we were following the river, and he would every few steps, he would just totally submerge his body in this frozen water and then come back up.
那些蚊子真是，怎么说呢，别具一格。
Like, the mosquitoes are just, yeah, something else.
我只去过安克雷奇。
I've only been to Anchorage.
其实我去过阿拉斯加的几处地方，但主要是在安克雷奇。
Well, I've been to a couple spots of Alaska, but I was in Anchorage.
我去的时候正值夏季。
And when I was there, it was the summertime.
我和朋友阿里当时在钓鲑鱼。
We were salmon fishing, my friend Ari and I.
我们买了驱虫剂，因为听说必须喷防蚊喷雾。
And we got bug repellent because we heard you gotta spray mosquito spray.
我们刚下车。
We stepped out of the car.
一打开车门，就有一大群蚊子扑面而来。
The moment we opened up the car door, there was a cloud of mosquitoes.
我们像小女孩一样尖叫起来。
We're shrieking like little girls.
我们简直不敢相信，这到底是怎么回事？
We're like, like, what the hell?
我这辈子从没经历过这种事。
It was it was I'd never experienced anything like it in my life.
它们到底是从哪儿冒出来的？
Like, where'd they come from?
没错。
Right.
你根本预料不到。
You don't expect it.
那里原本什么都没有。
There was nothing there.
就像，我们并没有看到蚊子群，但一打开车门就有数量惊人的蚊子涌进车里。
Like, it did wasn't like we saw a cloud of mosquitoes, but we opened up it was an impossible amount of mosquitoes that got into the car.
太可怕了。
It's terrible.
在提米尔，我记得我们会沿着草地行走，那高高的草丛里还开着小花。
In Tymir, I remember we would walk along the grass, this tall grass with little flowers in it.
正是那种你会想象猛犸象漫步其中、宛如宇宙主宰的地方。
Exactly the kind of place you can imagine mammoths roaming and being, like, the kings of the universe there.
但当你行走时，踢动草丛的瞬间，它们就会从草叶间蜂拥而出。
But as you were walking, you would kick up the grass, and they would just emerge off of the off of the needles of grass.
那感觉真的糟透了。
It was just really awful.
嗯，它们之所以这么有攻击性，是因为寿命只有三个月左右。
Well, they're so aggressive because they only have, like, three months to live.
是啊。
Yeah.
我其实还专门研究过这个问题，因为很好奇。
And I learned, actually, because I was curious about this.
它们怎么存活呢？因为北极动物那么少——主要是雌蚊才会吸血，而且只在产卵或繁殖时才需要血餐。
How do they survive if there are so few red blood because mosquitoes mostly, they take a they only take a it's only the females that take a blood meal, and they only take a blood meal when they're making eggs or making a brood.
吸血是为了繁殖。
They take it to reproduce.
其他时候它们以花蜜为食。
Otherwise, they feed on nectar.
那么问题来了：北极动物这么稀少，怎么养活这么多蚊子？
So how do these how do so many mosquitoes survive in the Arctic if there's so few animals there?
后来发现这些蚊子已经适应了气候，不需要血餐也能繁殖，但吸血后繁殖效果更好。
And it turns out those mosquitoes are adapted to this climate, and they don't need a blood meal to reproduce, but they do better if they get one.
所以它们追着你，但并不需要你。
So they're after you, but they don't need you.
哇哦。
Woah.
某种程度上更糟了。
Kinda makes it worse.
对吧？
Right?
哇哦。
Woah.
它们如此具有攻击性，这真的非常令人着迷。
It's it really is fascinating how aggressive they are.
是啊。
Yeah.
因为你知道，德克萨斯州也有蚊子，但它们可以全年存活，所以比较淡定。
Because if you know, Texas has mosquitoes, but they can live all year round, so they kinda chill.
是啊。
Yeah.
他们其实不怎么担心你。
They're not that worried about you.
而且我老板也特别搞笑。
And my boss was so funny too.
艾伦·库珀，就是和我一起工作的那个家伙，他当时还说，哦，我就要用这种天然驱蚊剂，你们根本不需要那些含毒性的东西。
Alan Cooper, the guy I went to work with, he was all, oh, I'm gonna just wear this natural mosquito repellent, and you don't need any of this stuff that actually has poisons in it.
看看我多天然。
Look at me at my natural.
结果我们到了那儿，风一停蚊子就来了，而我涂着避蚊胺。
And we're out there, and the the wind dries down, the mosquitoes come, and I'm with my DEET.
我就说，知道吗，你才是天然驱蚊剂。
I'm like, you know, you're a natural repellent.
他就开始骂娘了。
He's going, shit.
你带了驱蚊胺吗？
You did you bring the DEET?
我说，带了。
I'm like, yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
你很快就放弃那些天然玩意儿了。
You give up on that natural stuff real quick.
我看过一部纪录片，里面的人用松脂驱蚊。
I was watching a documentary where they're using pine pitch.
你看过维尔纳·赫尔佐格的电影《快乐的人们：泰加林中的生活》吗？
There's a have you ever seen Werner Herzog's film, happy people, life in the taiga?
那片子真的很棒。
It's really good.
这真的非常迷人。
It's really fascinating.
他跟踪拍摄了那些生活在西伯利亚泰加河畔的人们。
He follows these people that live on the Taiga River in Siberia.
很酷。
Cool.
这些都是靠自给自足生活的人，他们捕鱼、设陷阱，住在小木屋里，走到哪儿都带着狗。
And it's all these subsistence people that are, like, fishing and trapping, and they're living in these little cabins, and they bring dogs with them everywhere.
他们骑着雪地摩托到处走。
They travel around on snowmobiles.
真的吗？
Really?
最神奇的是这部纪录片的名字叫《快乐的人们》。
Well, it's what what's amazing about it is the title is happy people.
他们都很幸福。
They're all happy.
这真是太奇怪了。
That's what's so weird.
这些人生活非常艰苦，但他们总是面带笑容，过得很快乐。这种自给自足的生活方式不知为何，在某种程度上——我不想说是基因层面，但可以说是内在层面——让人感到非常充实。
It's like these people have a very hard life, but yet they're always smiling and they're having a good time and, you know, living this subsistence lifestyle somehow or another is, like, very fulfilling at, like, a I don't wanna say a genetic level, but, like, an internal level.
就好像，这其中有什么东西让人觉得这是合理的。
Like, there's something about it that, like, this makes sense.
而当今的社会，我认为并不合理，因为我觉得我们——你知道的，你是遗传学家。
Whereas society, like, today, I don't think it makes sense because I think we you know, you're a geneticist.
你懂基因。
You understand genes.
我们本质上拥有和一万年前人类相同的基因。
We essentially have the same genes that people lived ten thousand years ago had.
对吧。
Right.
完全不同的世界。
Very different world.
对。
Right.
对吧？
Right?
我们其实并不适应这个世界。
And we're not really designed for this world.
没错。
Right.
嗯，从肥胖率和糖尿病发病率上升就能看出来。
Well, you can see that in the increased rates of obesity, increased rates of diabetes.
不。
No.
我们不是
We're not
还有抑郁、焦虑 对。
Also depression, anxiety Right.
所有这些事。
All that stuff.
而这正是快乐人群的核心特质。
And this is what happy people is kind of all about.
我是说，维尔纳·赫尔佐格就是这样，他非常出色，所以整部片子也由他旁白解说。
I mean, Werner Herzog is this, you know, he's brilliant, and so he's narrating this whole thing too.
你能感受到他对这些过着极简生活之人的欣赏。
You kinda get this understanding of his appreciation for these people that are living this very basic life Yeah.
但却非常快乐。
But are very happy.
是啊。
Yeah.
令人印象深刻。
It's impressive.
当我们在泰梅尔时，乘坐了一架糟糕的俄罗斯直升机飞行了几天，它在第三次尝试时才成功起飞，因为西伯利亚的基础设施根本不管用。
When we were up there in Tymeyr, we'd flown for a couple days in this really awful Russian helicopter that took off the third time it tried to because, you know, infrastructure doesn't work in Siberia.
这是反复出现的主题
It's a repeated theme from
你懂的
You got
西伯利亚某地的直升机
a Siberian helicopter at a place.
那是一架米-8直升机，停在一个叫哈坦加的地方，我们当时驻扎在那里，正试图深入腹地。他们不断把我们的装备装进去，主要是些巨大的油箱。
It was an it an m I eight, and it was it was in it was in a place called Khatanga, which is where we were based while we were trying to get out into into and they kept loading all of our gear into this, and it's mostly these massive gas tanks.
他们把所有装备装进油箱后，我们一行人——包括一只叫帕沙的狗——都不愿上那架直升机。
And you load all the gear into the gas tanks, and then all of the people we had a dog, Pasha, who was with us, who did not want to get in that helicopter.
我觉得这条狗是我们探险队里最聪明的成员。
I think the dog was the smartest person in our expedition in our expedition team.
他们会把我们装上去，然后试图启动直升机，但就是发动不起来。
But they would load us up, and they would try to start the helicopter, and it wouldn't start.
最后又得把我们卸下来。
And they would unload us.
我们会回到住处，然后他们就会捣鼓修理那架直升机。
We would go back to the places we were staying, and then they would tinker with it and fix it.
总之，我们终于起飞了。
Anyway, we we flew out.
我们最终登上了直升机。
We got in the helicopter finally.
升空后，我们探险队的俄法领队决定用抽烟来庆祝终于成功起飞。
We got up into the air, and then the Russian and, French leaders of our expedition team decided that they were going to celebrate finally having taken off in this helicopter by smoking.
对吧？
Right?
我们就坐在那些燃气罐上，在这架我们本就觉得不靠谱的直升机里。
We're sitting on the gas tanks, right, in this helicopter that we already think right.
幸好直升机有几扇窗户是缺失的。
Fortunately, the helicopter had some missing windows.
所以，你知道的，当时真是... 天啊。
So, you know, there was Oh, boy.
有气流流通。
There was airflow.
没关系。
It's fine.
不。
No.
这太疯狂了。
This was insane.
相比其他经历，这次特别的探险尤其疯狂。
This whole this this particular ex expedition was particularly insane compared to other things of it.
所以，我最终会讲到这个故事的。
So, also in the I'm gonna get to the story eventually.
但在这段旅程中，我们花了很长时间飞往这个时代区域——他们曾预测在那里能找到猛犸象骨、披毛犀骨等我们感兴趣的所有动物骨骼。
But also in in part of this, we were traveling forever out into this part of the time era where they had predicted that we would be able to find mammoth bones and woolly rhino bones and all the bones of the animals we're interested in.
我们正飞往那里，然后开始降落。
So we're flying out there, and we start to land.
我心想，太好了。
And I'm thinking, great.
我们到了。
We're there.
我要离开这个疯狂的空中火球了。
I get out of this crazy fire bomb in the air that I'm in.
我们要降落了。
We're gonna we land.
不。
No.
没有。
No.
我们没能下去。
We did not get off.
相反，我们接上了一户独自在那里的陌生人家。
Instead, we picked up a random family that had been out there on their own.
父母和一个孩子。
Parents, a child.
是的。
Yeah.
那是一对父母带着一个孩子，他们背着装有装备的背包和一个巨大的冷藏箱。
It was two parents and a child, and they had backpack with their gear and a massive cooler.
对。
Right.
这就是他们带的东西。
That's what they had.
无话可说。
No words.
他们是法国人。
They're French.
他们用法语和现场的团队交流。
They speak French to the team that's there.
人们正在用俄语交谈，然后我们再次起飞。
People are con having a conversation in Russian, and then we take off again.
我在想
And I'm thinking
接这些人是有计划的，还是他们被困住了？
Was that planned to pick these people up, or were they trapped?
我认为是有计划的。
I think it was planned.
只是如我们所知，当时缺乏沟通。
Just there was a lack of communication, as we know.
不过无所谓了。
But whatever.
直升机起飞了两次，然后又降落了。
The helicopter took off twice, and then it landed.
所有人都卸下装备，我们搭起了帐篷，建立了营地。
And everybody unloaded, and we set up the the tent, the camp.
在接下来的几天里，我们发现并建造了这些很酷的船——充气艇。
And we discovered over the course of the next few days, you know, we built these cool boats, the zodiacs.
你把它们充好气，装上外挂发动机，然后把它们放到湖上。
You blow them up, and you bring out the outboard, you put them on the lake.
我们四处查看，发现我们降落的地方将是我们未来六周的驻扎地，这里在上个冰河时期曾被冰川覆盖，这意味着我们找到想要的东西的几率非常渺茫。
And we're looking around, and we discovered that we had landed in a place where we were gonna be for six weeks that had been glaciated during the last ice age, which meant that our chances of finding what we wanted were really small.
哦，不。
Oh, no.
这简直令人崩溃。
And it was devastating.
而且我们队伍里还有一名俄罗斯厨师。
And the the Russian we had a cook with us.
俄罗斯厨师们带了医用酒精，因为比起他们通常会在直升机上携带的伏特加，医用酒精的单位酒精含量更轻，所以他们带了医用酒精来喝。
The Russian cooks had brought medical ethanol because it weighed less per unit of alcohol than vodka, which they would normally bring on the helicopters, so they brought medical ethanol to drink.
哇哦。
And Woah.
嗯，你知道的，能带的东西毕竟有限。
Well, you know, you you can only take so much stuff with you.
它比酒精轻。
It weighs less than alcohol.
这决定太疯狂了。
That's a crazy decision.
呃，他们觉得这样安全。
Well, you know, they they decided it was safe.
总之三天后，就是极昼了。
Anyway, by three days in, it's twenty four hour sunlight.
我们在北纬72度。
We're at seventy two degrees latitude.
你尝过吗？
Did you try it?
医用乙醇？
The medical ethanol?
试过医用乙醇。
Tried the medical ethanol.
我是说，这很明显。
I mean, obviously.
对吧？
Right?
用一点河水稀释它，搭配你刚捕获并切片的新鲜鱼肉一起享用。
You water it down with a little bit of river water, and you have it with your freshly caught fish that you've filleted.
而且，是的，这感觉棒极了。
And, yeah, it's it's great.
没错。
Yeah.
我们全程都吃鱼和米饭。
We had fish and rice for the whole time.
就是这样
That was
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所以你们得自己捕猎食物？
So you had to catch your food?
我们得自己捕猎食物。
We had to catch your food.
是的。
Yes.
幸运的是，那里应该有很多鱼。
Luckily, it's probably a lot of fish up there.
有鱼，还有些鹅和鸭子，他们会在我们乘坐冲锋舟时试图射击，通常不会提前告诉我们他们要开枪。
Fish, and there were some geese and some ducks that they would try to shoot while we were on our zodiacs, normally without telling us that they were about to shoot.
那真是
It was a very
所以你们就突然听到'砰'的一声。
So you just hear boom.
对啊。
Yeah.
砰。
Boom.
然后你会坐在那里看着什么，突然橡皮艇就开走了，因为负责的人发现了远处他想射击的目标。
And then the thing would or you'd be sitting there looking at something, and suddenly the zodiac would take off because whoever was in charge had seen something he wanted to shoot at in the distance.
总之，至少我不知道为什么我要讲
Anyway, at least I don't know why I'm telling
这个故事。
you story.
因为很有趣。
Because it's fun.
这是个有趣的故事。
It's a fun story.
所以我们当时在那里。
So we were there.
我们在那里待了——我也不知道多久。
We're there for I don't know.
大概花了二三天四处查看，那时大约是凌晨两点钟。
Maybe it was two or three days looking around, and it was about 02:00 in the morning.
我们当时在自己搭建的小帐篷里，那是我们的厨房帐篷，用来吃饭的。
The we were inside this little tent that we'd built so that we could eat in it, sort of the kitchen tent where we were.
那是个大网纱帐篷，用来防蚊，这样我们就不用把所有东西都罩起来。
And it was a big mesh tent to keep the mosquitoes out so that we didn't have to have everything.
每个人都愁眉苦脸地望着远方发呆。
And everybody is just staring off into the distance glumly.
医用酒精已经用完了。
The medical ethanol was gone.
知道吗？
Know?
所有人都清醒着。
Everybody was sober.
接下来的五周我们都得保持清醒。
We were gonna be for the next five weeks.
我们将被困在这个找不到目标的地方。
We were gonna be stuck in this place where we weren't able to find what we were.
然后突然间，三个持机枪的家伙出现在我们帐篷外。
And then all of a sudden, these three dudes show up outside of our tent with machine guns.
没错。
Right.
我想所有人都在想：这他妈什么情况？
And I'm thinking everybody's thinking, what the fuck?
我们刚坐直升机飞了老远，底下啥都没有。
Like, we just flew forever in a helicopter over nothing at all.
除了半路随机捎上的那家法国人外啥都没有。
Nothing except for this French family that we picked up randomly along the way.
大家面面相觑，那一刻所有人都在想：我们到底该怎么办？
And everybody's looking around, and there's this real moment of What the hell are we gonna do?
这时探险队长认出了其中两个人，他喊道：卧槽，是朋友。
And then the guy who was the expedition leader recognizes these two dudes, and he's like, Woah, friends.
哦，见到你真好。
Oh, good to see you.
吧啦吧啦。
Blah, blah, blah.
我当时在想，当他们发现我们再也没有医用伏特加乙醇时会发生什么？
And I'm thinking, What's gonna happen when they realize we don't have any more vodka medical ethanol?
对吧？
Right?
对。
Right.
结果发现他们是多尔甘社区的成员，这是一个真实存在的以狩猎为生的族群，至今仍生活在泰梅尔地区。
That's and it turns out that they are they were members of the Dolgan community, which is an actual family of subsistence people that still live up on the time air.
他们以驯养驯鹿为生，看到直升机后好奇我们在做什么，于是穿越了他们日常生活的荒野来寻找我们。
They herd reindeer, And they had seen the helicopter and had wondered what we were up to and just set out over the landscape that they'd normally live on to try to find us.
哇。
Wow.
是啊。
Yeah.
其实挺酷的。
Pretty cool, actually.
那很酷。
That's cool.
所以
So did
你和那些人一起玩了吗？
you hang out with those people?
嗯，我们确实一起玩了。
Well, we did.
显然，他们对我们没有任何酒精感到失望。
They were disappointed that we didn't have any any alcohol, obviously.
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这是个主题。
That's a theme.
这是个主题。
It's a theme.
因为是俄罗斯，所以这个主题很合理。
It was Russia, so it's a fair theme.
但那对法国夫妇的事，说出来你可能不信。
But the French couple this is just you're not gonna believe me when I say this.
对吧？
Right?
好吧。
Okay.
那对法国夫妇说：‘交给我吧’。
The French couple said, I got this.
然后他们起身回到了自己在荒野中搭的小帐篷区域。
And they get up and they go back to their little tent area that they'd set up in the middle of nowhere.
他们带回了自己的冷藏箱。
And they bring back their cooler.
他们打开箱子，里面装的是奶酪。
And they open it up and inside is cheese.
像是一大块高达奶酪和一大块布里奶酪。
Like a massive Gouda and a massive brie.
我不知道。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I don't know.
对吧？
Right?
但他们确实带了奶酪。
But they had cheese.
于是我们切了奶酪，与我们的多尔甘朋友们分享，他们很开心。
And so we cut the cheese and shared the cheese with our Dolgan friends, and they were happy.
第二天，我们用橡皮艇把他们送回了他们的社区。
And the next day, we took them back with the zodiacs to their to their community.
你知道这次经历最令人惊叹的是什么吗？
And you know what was most amazing about this experience?
而且，关于这一切的一切都很酷。
And it it everything about it was cool.
我们看到了这些人住在世界某个角落的小棚屋里，那里气温会降到零下40度，而且不管是华氏度还是摄氏度都无所谓，因为在这个温度下两者是相同的。
We saw these people that were living in these tiny little huts in part of the world where it goes to 40 below, and it doesn't matter if it's Fahrenheit or Celsius because they cross at that level.
对吧？
Right?
零下40度。
It's 40 below.
在长达数月的黑暗冬季里，他们放牧驯鹿，住在这些被一分为二的小屋里——冬天时一半用来取暖，另一半供家人居住。
And during the winter for months and dark, And they're herding reindeer, and they're living in these tiny little things that they cut in half during the winter so that half of it is used for heating and half of it is used for the family to live in.
他们所有的家当都放在这些带滑橇的装置上，由驯鹿拖着穿越苔原、永冻层，在雪地里或夏季寻找可供动物吃草的土地。
Everything that they own is on these things, on skids, that the reindeer drag across the tundra, across the permafrost in the snow or in the summer trying to find the land for the animals to graze.
这就是他们的生活方式。
And this is how they live.
那是那次经历中唯一可以摘掉防蚊头网的时刻，因为蚊子对那些动物更感兴趣，完全不理我。
And that was the only time in that experience where I could take off the head net because the mosquitoes didn't care about me around those animals.
真的吗？
Really?
这确实令人印象深刻。
It was really impressive.
它们只攻击动物吗？
They only wanted to attack the animals?
蚊子都冲着动物去了，真的完全不理我们。
They were after the animals, and they really left us alone.
可能是因为那些动物才是它们的天然目标。
But Probably because that's their natural source.
是啊。
Yeah.
那里的自然环境更适合它们生存。
More natural than there's more of them there.
我是说，我也不确定。
I mean, I don't know.
也许它们体型更大，但当时的情况是
Maybe they're larger, but it's it was
它们可能已经习惯了。
They're probably accustomed to it.
对吧？
Right?
不过话说回来，几千年来它们可能一直以驯鹿为食。
Though, also, like, for thousands of years, they've probably been just feeding off of reindeer.
是啊。
Yeah.
但我想到阿拉斯加那头可怜的驼鹿，显然也被蚊子困扰得不行。
I think about that, though, but I think about those poor that poor moose from Alaska Alaska who was also clearly bothered by the mosquitoes.
我想驯鹿也一样，不过那确实挺酷的。
I imagine the reindeer were as well, but and it was it was pretty cool.
这些人是骑着驯鹿吗？
Were these people riding the reindeer?
他们确实骑过。
They did ride them.
事实上，他们还把我扶上去，教我如何骑驯鹿。
In fact, I got to they put me up there and showed me how I could ride the reindeer.
是
Is
这是他们的地盘吗？
this their place?
对。
Yes.
是啊。
Yeah.
哇。
Wow.
所以你当时在这个区域？
So you were in this area?
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yeah.
不过我是夏天去的，所以地上没有积雪。
I was there during the summer, though, so it wasn't there wasn't snow on the ground.
那里全是湿漉漉的草地，非常潮湿，可能正是因为地面这么潮湿才会有那么多蚊子。
It was all just a very grassy, wet, super wet grassy, and the the moisture in the ground is probably why there are so many mosquitoes.
让我觉得特别神奇的是，人们世世代代都这样生活。
It is so fascinating to me that people will live like this generation after generation after generation.
没错。
Yep.
而事实上，驯鹿这种奇怪的动物居然是可以被放牧的。
And the fact that you can somehow these are one of the weird animals, caribou are, that you can herd.
是啊。
Yeah.
人们还会骑它们。
And people ride them.
还能挤奶？
And milk them?
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
偶尔还会宰一头。
And then occasionally whack one.
嗯。
Yeah.
我是说，它们很棒。
I mean, they're great.
对吧？
Right?
这些动物一直是非常出色的储存机制。
This is animals are have always been a really great storage mechanism.
这是关于动物驯化的假说之一。
That's one of the hypotheses about animal domestication.
为什么会发生这种情况？
Why did this take place?
如果我们有植物，但有些年份食物充足，有些年份则不够吃。
If we had plants, but there are gonna be years where there's plenty to eat and years where there's not enough to eat.
但在那些丰年，如果你将部分营养储存在动物体内，那么在歉收的年份，你就可以吃掉这些动物。
But if you in those years where there's plenty, if you store some of that nutrition in animals, then in the years where there's less, you can eat those animals.
所以这是一种非常安全的储存你所种植物的方式。
So it's a very safe way of storing what you can grow.
这种看待储存的方式真是引人入胜。
That's a fascinating way to look at it, storing.
我就想知道他们到底是怎么学会驯养那些驯鹿的。
I just wanna know how they ever figured out how to herd those reindeer.
比如，具体是怎么操作的？
Like, what did you do?
到底是谁第一个想出办法让它们聚在一起不散的？
Like, how did who was the first person to figure out how to get them all to stay together?
没错。
Right.
我对很多家养动物都有这种疑问。
I think that about a lot of domestic animals.
说到这个，我对挤奶这件事也有同样的疑惑。
Like, who was the I also think that about milk.
比如，到底是谁第一个想到'我可以试试挤这个'的？
Like, who was the first person who decided, I can have a go with that?
你知道吗？
You know?
我是说，他们可能快饿死了。
I mean, they're probably starving.
他们可能——我是说，他们肯定什么都试过了。
They probably I mean, they must have tried everything.
我是说，我们就是这样发现哪些蘑菇能吃的。
Mean, that's how we found out what mushrooms are edible.
对吧？
Right?
因为很大一部分蘑菇会直接要了你的命，但人们实在太绝望了，什么都愿意尝试。
Because a large percentage of them will just kill you immediately, but people are so desperate for anything.
是啊。
Yeah.
不过有些蘑菇其实通过鲜红色或亮紫色在警告你了，好像在说
Some of them are trying to tell you though by being, like, bright red or bright purple and saying
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
但我们很蠢，看到鲜红色的东西就会想，
But we're dumb, so we're like, bright red.
我要舔一口。
I'll lick that.
是啊。
Yeah.
说不定是个苹果呢。
It might be an apple.
这太让人困惑了。
Like, that's confusing.
有些鲜红色的东西非常美味。
Some bright red things are delicious.
真的
It's really
对你有好处。
good for you.
哇。
Wow.
那么住在那里的人们，他们有什么历史？
So these people that live up there, what was their history?
比如，他们一辈子都住在那里吗？
Like, have they been living up there their whole life?
那些特定的人确实如此。
Those particular individuals have.
是的。
Yeah.
但我认为他们有着悠久的历史。
But I think they're they have a long history.
那里的文化有着悠久的历史。
The the culture has a long history there.
而且，我认为我们仍在学习人类是如何分散到世界各地，以及他们如何到达现在所处的位置。
And, I mean, we're we're still I think, we're still learning about how humans have dispersed around the world and how they got to be the places where they are today.
但我真的觉得令人印象深刻的是，仍有人坚守着那种文化。
But I really think it's impressive that there are people who are hanging on to that culture
确实如此。
Absolutely.
他们现在正努力重新学习自己的母语，因为在共产主义时期，他们都被迫学习俄语，像其他人一样说俄语。
And really able to you know, they're they're trying now to relearn their native languages because during the communist era, they were all forced to learn Russian and speak Russian the same way as everyone else.
但是
But
甚至在那里也是吗？
Even up there?
甚至在那里也是。
Even up there.
哇。
Wow.
如果他们派个使者来，肯定会说：伙计们，是时候说母语了。
And if they sent an emissary, it'd say, guys, it's time to speak mother tongue.
也许他们不得不去广场，就像你在雅库茨克和其他地方看到的那样，那些有大广场和高音喇叭的地方，他们每天都要去那里接受共产党的训诫或什么的。
Maybe they had to go to the squares like you see in Yakutsk and and all these other places where they have the big squares with the speakers on the top where they would go for the daily admonishings or whatever from the communist party.
谁知道呢？
Who knows?
哇。
Wow.
多么奇怪的生活方式啊。
What a weird way to live.
真是令人着迷，世界各地都有这样生活的人类小群体。
It's just it's it's so fascinating that there's pockets of these humans that live like this all over the world.
显然，亚马逊雨林中的居民，那些与世隔绝的部落，这实在太有趣了。
Obviously, the the people in the Amazon, the uncontacted tribes of the world, It's just so interesting.
我们有很多东西可以向他们学习。
And we have so much to learn from them.
嗯。
Mhmm.
是啊。
Yeah.
我觉得任何...我是说，这显然是个超棒的工作，能去尝试与从未交流过的人们沟通。
I think any it would be I mean, obviously, that's such a cool job, how getting to go and actually try to communicate with people who haven't been talked to before.
但你又有点不想去，因为不想破坏那种状态，如果你...
But you kinda don't want to because you don't wanna ruin that if you
这不是个有趣的视角吗？
Isn't that an interesting perspective?
因为我自己可不想那样生活。
Because I don't wanna live like that.
比如，我可不想住在亚马逊，用片叶子遮住私处，但我们甚至假设
Like, I don't wanna live in the Amazon with a leaf over my private parts, but we assume that Not even
一周也不行吗？
for a week?
比如，不行。
Like Nope.
不想那样生活。
Don't wanna do it.
那里有太多东西会吃了你。
There's so many things out there that'll eat you.
有太多能致命的虫子和毒蛇。
There's so many bugs that can kill you and snakes that could kill you.
就像，呃呃。
It's like, uh-uh.
我宁愿看视频。
I'd like rather watch a video.
对。
Right.
大卫·爱登堡的纪录片。
David Attenborough documentary.
是啊。
Yeah.
我可不想去那儿。
Don't wanna go there.
我有个好朋友就住那儿，叫保罗·罗萨莉。
I have a good friend who lives there, Paul Rosalie.
他经常去那儿。
He goes there all the time.
他上过几次播客节目，就住在亚马逊雨林里。
He's been on the podcast a few times, and he lives in the Amazon.
他的主要工作就是保护雨林，他们帮助那些别无选择的贫困伐木工人。
And his whole thing is he's there protecting the rainforest, and what they do is they take these people that are they're just poor people that have no options, and they're loggers.
所以他付给他们更多钱来保护雨林。
And so he pays them more money to protect the rainforest.
这样他们就能辞去伐木工作，转而保护雨林。
So they get to quit the logging job and then protect the rainforest.
然后通过资金筹集，他们买下一块块土地加以保护。但他曾与未接触外界的人有过几次惊险遭遇——有次他们意识到自己正在被猎杀，差点没能逃脱。
And then through funding, they they buy up parcels of lands and protect and save it, but he's had some gnarly encounters with uncontacted people where at one point in time, they realized they were they were actually being hunted, and they barely escaped with their life.
天啊。
Holy shit.
然后你开始听到灌木丛中传来奇怪的声音，才意识到情况不妙。
And you start hearing weird noises in the bushes, and then you realize, like, oh, boy.
这些都是人。
These are people.
我们正在被跟踪。
Like, we're we're being stalked right now.
被最精于狩猎的动物。
By the most sophisticated hunting animal out there.
是的。
Yes.
不仅如此。
By the not only that.
我想象这些人所处的阶段，他们已经在那里生活了成千上万年。
I would imagine at the stage that these people are at, they've been living there for thousands and thousands of years.
他们很可能拥有惊人的感知力和敏锐的感官。
They probably have incredible perception, incredible senses.
因为他们必须这样。
Because they have to.
没错。
Right.
他们可能早就知道这些人要来了。
They probably knew these people were coming a long time ago.
你知道的，他们可能早就听到船沿河而下的声音了。
They, you know, they probably heard the boat coming down the river.
他们早有准备。
They prepared.
他们严阵以待。
They got ready.
他们熟知每一条路径。
They they know where all the paths are.
他们知道这些人会往哪条路走。
They know which way the people would go.
就像，你完全束手无策。
Like, you're utterly helpless.
他逃出来了吗？
Did he get out of this?
他们刚好及时逃脱。
They got out just in time.
千钧一发之际。
Just in time.
他们刚刚逃脱了。
They just escaped.
是啊。
Yeah.
但他的一个朋友，一个和他共事的人没能逃出来。
But one of his friends, one of the people that he was working with did not.
他们会准备这些礼物，比如用木筏载满食物漂向那些人，试图与他们建立联系。
He he they would have these gifts, like so they would take these rafts and to try to make contact with these people, they would float these rafts towards them filled with food.
他们这样做是作为一种和平的表示。
And they were doing this as, a a peace gesture.
这个人已经这样做了好几次，但有一次他没有回来，后来他们发现了他——菲尔·瓦罗斯。
And this guy had done this several times, and then one time he didn't come back, and they found him Phil Varroes.
哇哦。
Woah.
没错。
Yeah.
他们直接杀了他。
They just killed him.
他们就这么决定了，也许是因为之前和其他西方人有过不愉快的经历，于是决定就此了结。
They just decided, you know, maybe they had a bad experience with some other person from some some other westerner, and they decided, you know, we're done.
但他们有理由害怕人类，因为那些来开采资源的人——无论是伐木工还是其他什么——一旦发现那里有矿产或其他东西，就会把所有人都杀掉。
But they're rightly terrified of humans because when these people that come in that wanna extract resources, whether it's the loggers or whether whatever it is, if there's some minerals or anything else they find there, they just kill everybody.
那里发生了可怕的人权侵犯事件，他们雇佣世界上最恶劣的人去消灭这些部落，因为这些部落抵抗他们占领这片土地。
It's there's horrific human rights violations that occur there where these they just hire the worst people in the world to go in and wipe out these tribes because these tribes are resisting them taking over this land.
我们有过这样的历史。
We have a history of this.
是的。
Yeah.
确实如此。
We we do.
我们有着深厚的历史，特别是关于亚马逊的，这非常引人入胜。最近我们和卢克·卡弗斯讨论过激光雷达发现的那些复杂网格和亚马逊里的所有东西，人们曾以为那里永远只是雨林。
We have a deep history, which is really fascinating about the Amazon in particular because, you know, we've had a bunch of conversations on, one of them recently with, Luke Caverns where we went over the lidar discoveries of these sophisticated grids and all the stuff that's in the Amazon where they really thought that this was just rainforest forever.
随着时间的推移，人们才逐渐意识到这里曾存在过拥有数百万人口的庞大文明。
And then slowly over time, really know there was like a huge civilization here of millions of people.
所以这些与世隔绝的族群，我在想他们中有多少可能是亚马逊世界的'末日准备者'，来自大约四千年前或更早的时期。
So these people that are the uncontacted people, I mean, I wonder how many of them were like the preppers of the Amazon world from, you know, four thousand years ago or whatever it was.
没错。
Right.
或者时间上可能没那么久远。
Or it wasn't even that long ago.
珀西·福西特，珀西·福西特。
The the Percy Fawcett Percy Fawcett.
对吧？
Right?
这是他的名字吗？
That's his name?
就是那本书《迷失Z城》里的男主角原型人物之一。
The guy who one one of the guys who that's he's the the main character in that book, the lost city of z.
他是前往那里的其中一人。
He's one of the people that went there.
当第一批定居者或探险家抵达时，他们曾描述过那些令人难以置信的、高度发达的文明。
When they when the first settlers went there or when the first explorers went there, they talked about these incredible, like, sophisticated civilizations.
然而百年后人们重返时，那些文明已荡然无存。
And then people went back a hundred years, and there was none of that.
于是人们认为那些描述纯属虚构。
So they thought that they had just made it up.
后来发现，最初的到访者很可能给当地带去了致命疾病，导致数百万人消亡。
It turns out the first people probably gave these folks horrible diseases, and it wiped out millions of people.
丛林随后吞噬了他们所有的建筑和房屋等遗迹。
And then the jungle just consumed whatever structures and houses and stuff that they had.
如今仅存的，就是航拍激光雷达能观测到的这些网格状痕迹。
And all that's left is these grids that you can see when you fly over in LIDAR.
是啊。
Yeah.
这太酷了。
It's so cool.
实际上，当你飞越世界任何地方时都能看到那些痕迹。
You can see those when you're flying over any part of the world, really.
我最近注意到了这一点。
I've I noticed it recently.
我飞越欧洲上空时，能看到古老的葡萄架痕迹——不知道具体年代，但能看到文明遗迹的感觉太棒了，让人不禁思考：这里发生过什么？
I was flying over Europe, and you can see the old trellises from old you know, I don't know how old, but it's just so cool how we can see remnants of civilizations, and it just makes you think, what happened?
就像，这些是最迷人的未解之谜。
Like, this is the some of the coolest mysteries.
研究古DNA最酷的地方也在于此，我们可以去往各地，从物品中提取DNA，发现前所未闻的真相。
That's what's so cool about working in ancient DNA too, is we can just go to places, get DNA from stuff, and learn something that we never knew before.
很有趣。
It's fun.
所以你对DNA产生了兴趣。
So you get interested in DNA.
你去西伯利亚之类的。
You go to Siberia, all that jazz.
你是怎么开始与Colossal这样的公司合作的？
How do you get started working with a company like Colossal?
这是怎么发生的？
How does that take place?
我们所有研究古DNA的人，经常要回答媒体同样的问题：什么时候能让恐龙复活？
All of us working in ancient DNA, we are constantly answering the same question from the media, which is when are we gonna bring dinosaurs back to life?
因为《侏罗纪公园》。
Because Jurassic Park.
是啊。
Yeah.
而且很棒。
And and great.
我们太单纯了。
We're so simple.
一部伟大的电影问世后，所有人都在问：这事什么时候能成真？
One great movie, and everybody's like, when's that gonna happen?
人们确实说，我的研究领域是被《侏罗纪公园》催生出来的。
And people say people actually say that my field was spawned by Jurassic Park.
那种认为我们能提取DNA材料的整个想法，其实并不正确。
The the whole idea that we could get DNA stuff, that's not true.
实际情况恰恰相反。
It was actually the other way around.
迈克尔·克莱顿在创作原著小说时（后来改编成电影），他特别感谢了伯克利的艾伦·威尔逊实验室——灭绝物种研究小组，
And Michael Crichton, when he wrote the book that became the movie, he credited a lab at Berkeley, Alan Wilson's group, the extinct species study group,
这个小组
which was
是首个证明能从死亡生物体内获取DNA的团队。
the first group to show that you could get DNA in something after it died.
实验样本其实来自斑驴——一种斑马亚种。
That was actually from a quagga, which is a type of zebra.
他们管它叫什么
They had What a
酷名字。
cool name.
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Right.
嗯，在斑驴。
Well, in Quagga.
在南非荷兰语里，他们实际上说成'夸赫'。
In in Dutch, in South Africa, they actually say the quacher.
哦。
Oh.
更棒了。
Even better.
是啊。
Yeah.
那样更好。
It's better that way.
不过，是啊。
But Yeah.
可能对麦克风不太好。
It's kinda bad for the microphone, probably.
真恶心。
Gross.
克瓦查。
Kwacha.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得这是它们应该发出的声音。
I think it's the sound they're supposed to make.
对吧？
Right?
哦。
Oh.
所以它们听起来像是...我不知道。
So they sound like the I don't know.
谁知道呢？
Who knows?
总之，他们展示出可以从这块皮肤中提取DNA。
Anyway, they showed that you could get DNA from this skin.
然后所有人都觉得，这是他们很久以来听过最酷的事情。
And everybody was like, that is the coolest thing that I've heard in a long time.
那肯定意味着我们能复活恐龙了。
That must mean we can bring dinosaurs back to life.
于是大家就开始竞相寻找最古老最酷的DNA。
And everybody started racing to get the oldest and coolest DNA.
于是那些从不发表任何错误内容的一流科学期刊上刊登了论文，声称：看吧，
And so there were papers in the best journals of science that never published anything that's wrong ever, ever, that said, look.
这就是恐龙DNA。
Here's dinosaur DNA.
再看看，
And look.
这是来自迈锡尼时期叶片的DNA。
Here's DNA from a mycene aged leaf.
再看，
And look.
还有这个。
Here's this.
但所有这些全是垃圾。
And all of it is crap.
我们现在知道了。
We now know.
事实上，最早发布的恐龙DNA序列，如果你当时将它们输入互联网，并与现今这个庞大的、包含所有已测序生物DNA序列的数据库中最早期的数据进行比对。
In fact, the first dinosaur DNA sequences that were published, if you took them at the time and you typed them into the Internet and you compared them to the earliest of the what is today this big repository of all DNA sequences of everything that's ever been sequenced, sequenced.
结果显示它与一种鸟类高度匹配。
What came back was a close match to a bird.
我们现在知道，由于那里有更多的DNA序列，它其实是鸡——与鸡的序列完全吻合。一些调查工作发现，挖掘团队当时在处理那些骨头时，每天午餐都吃炸鸡。
We now know because there's more DNA sequences there that it was a chicken, an exact match to a chicken, and some investigative work found that the excavation team had been working on those bones, had fried chicken for lunch every day.
所以这是鸡肉污染。
So it's chicken contamination.
是啊。
Yeah.
就像在你恐龙化石上留下的油腻手指印。
It was like greasy fingers on your dinosaur fossils.
你瞧。
And look.
天啊。
God.
现在我们有了古DNA。
Now we have ancient DNA.
这太搞笑了。
That is hilarious.
可见当时他们对DNA知之甚少。
So That's how little they knew about DNA.
那大概是哪一年的事？
And what year was this around?
应该是九十年代初。
That would be the early nineties.
九十年代初啊。
The early nineties.
DNA最初是什么时候被发现的？
And when was DNA first discovered?
DNA的概念其实更早就有，但真正推动这个领域发展的是PCR技术的发明。
Well, the idea of DNA is much older than that, but it it was really the idea what what really helped this field along was the invention of PCR.
这是聚合酶链式反应的缩写。
It's an acronym for polymerase chain reaction.
这是凯利·穆利斯的方法，他在一次公路旅行中嗑药时想到了PCR的概念。
It's a way of Carrie Mullis, who discovered the idea of PCR while he was high on a road trip.
对吧？
Right?
在迷幻药的作用下。
On LSD.
没错。
Yeah.
确实如此。
That's right.
是啊。
Yeah.
我觉得我们都该试试迷幻药，因为显然嗨了的时候最有灵感。
We should all do LSD, I think, because clearly, you have your best ideas when you're high.
对吧？
Right?
有些人能想出绝妙的主意。
Some people have great ideas.
有些人则变得疯疯癫癫。
Some people go kooky.
你懂吗？
You know?
有些人彻底疯了就再也回不来了。
Some people lose their marbles and never come back.
是啊。
Yeah.
我觉得我服LSD可能也想不出什么好点子，不过我愿意试试看。
I think I probably would not have good ideas on LSD, but I'm willing to give it a shot.
噢，我喜欢你这种科学探索精神。
Oh, I like your scientific exploration mind.
优秀的科学家总是想弄清楚
A good scientist always wants to know how
你永远不知道
You never know.
是啊
Yeah.
也许那张小纸片后面就藏着重大突破
Maybe there's a breakthrough waiting behind that little piece of paper.
很可能没有
Probably not.
但是
But
很可能没有
Probably not.
但你永远不知道
But you never know.
总之，他发现了一种复印DNA的方法，能够大量复制相同片段，这使得利用当时的技术测定序列成为可能。
Anyway, he discovered a way to photocopy DNA, to make lots of copies of the same thing, which then made it possible to learn the sequence using the technologies of the day.
而真正让古DNA研究得以腾飞的正是这种能力——因为当动物或植物死亡时，细胞中的DNA会开始被紫外线等物质切割成越来越小的片段。
And that was what made it possible really for ancient DNA to take off was this ability to because there's when an animal dies or a plant dies, the DNA in the cell starts to get chopped up into smaller and smaller pieces by things like UV.
对吧？
Right?
我们出门晒太阳时会涂防晒霜，这能阻止紫外线破坏我们的DNA。
We go out in the sun, we put sunscreen on, and that stops the UV from breaking our DNA.
但适当晒太阳并不糟糕，就像你刚才可能看到的那样。
But it's not terrible to some sunlight, as you probably just saw.
有篇文章出来说，嘿，傻瓜们。
There was an article out saying, hey, dummies.
要知道，我们需要一些阳光来合成维生素D。
You know, we need some sunlight in order to make vitamin D.
但我们有修复机制，所以当DNA断裂时，它不会一直保持断裂状态。
But we have a repair mechanism so that when your DNA breaks, it doesn't stay that way.
我们进化出了这种机制，但一旦死亡，就失去了维持它运作的能量。
We evolved this mechan but once you're dead, you no longer have the energy for that to work.
因此这些受损的DNA片段会不断积累。
And so these these damaged parts of DNA accumulate.
同时还有细菌和微生物侵入，它们会分解DNA以便回收利用，为下一代生物或植物提供养分。
And also things like bacteria and microbes get in there and chew up the DNA to recycle the animal to the next generation or plant or whatever.
所以我们从古老物体（比如猛犸象骨头）中提取的DNA都是非常短的片段，可能只有30到50个碱基对那么长。
And so the DNA that we get in an old thing, like a mammoth bone, is really short fragments, like maybe 30 or 40 or 50 letters of DNA long.
相比之下，如果从我口腔内壁取样测序，我能获得长达数亿碱基对的DNA链。
In comparison, if I were to take a swab from my cheek and sequence that, I could get strings that are hundreds of millions of letters long.
这简直太神奇了。
This is Wow.
这就是活体DNA。
Living DNA.
所以古代DNA不仅保存状况极差，还混杂着各种污染物。
So ancient DNA is in really crap condition, and it's also mixed with stuff.
所以如果我提取猛犸象的DNA，我会得到一些猛犸象DNA，但也会得到很多正在那里分解DNA的微生物。
So if I extract DNA from a mammoth, I'll get some mammoth DNA, but I'll get a lot of those microbes that are in there chewing up DNA.
我可能还会得到一些自己的DNA，因为我碰过那块猛犸象骨头。
I'll probably get some of my DNA because I touched that mammoth bone.
还会得到其他碰过这块骨头的人的DNA。
Get DNA from whoever else touched that thing.
这在考古学中一直是个大问题，因为我们试图获取人类DNA，但我们自己就是人类。
This has been a real problem in archaeology because we're trying to get DNA from humans, but we are humans.
所以我们接触这些物品后，就分不清这是我的DNA还是那个物品的DNA了。
And so we touch these things, and then I don't know if it's my DNA or if that thing DNA is.
没错。
Right.
本期节目由Farmer's Dog赞助播出。
This episode is brought to you by the farmer's dog.
如果你和我一样，一定很爱你的狗狗。
If you're anything like me, you love your dog.
你希望为你的毛茸茸伙伴提供最好的，但弄清楚什么才是最好的确实让人头疼。
You want what's best for your furry pal, but figuring out what that is can be a real headache.
市面上有很多错误信息，尤其是关于狗粮的。
There's a lot of misinformation out there, especially around dog food.
就拿干狗粮来说吧。
Take kibble for example.
几乎每个人都可能在某个时候给狗狗喂过干粮。
Almost everyone has probably fed their dog kibble at some point.
但如果你稍作调查，可能会发现它是多么高度加工的食品。
But if you do a little digging, you may find out how ultra processed it is.
幸运的是，现在有更好的选择。
Luckily, there's a better option for you out there.
比如由真正关心狗狗饮食的人制作的食物，就像农民之犬提供的产品。
Food from people who care about what goes into your dog's body, like the farmer's dog.
他们制作的鲜食非常简单——没有神奇配方，只有肉类和蔬菜，经过轻度烹饪，完全均衡满足狗狗的营养需求。
They make fresh food that's so simple, no magical or miracle recipes, just meat and vegetables, lightly cooked, complete and balanced for your dog's needs.
所有配方均由经过委员会认证的营养学家开发，食品安全标准与我们人类食品相同。
And it's all developed by board certified nutritionists with the same safety standards as our food.
当你转换饮食方案时，你会看到显著变化。
When you make the switch, you'll see a massive impact.
它能帮助你的狗狗更健康、更快乐、更有活力。
It can help your dogs be healthier, happier, and more energetic.
与装在巨型包装袋里、只有模糊喂食建议的干粮不同，Farmer's Dog的食品会按你家狗狗的食量分装配送。
And unlike kibble, which comes in a giant bag with vague serving suggestions, the farmer's dog food is delivered in packs portion for your dog.
这能轻松帮助它们保持理想体重——这是预测能否更长寿健康的最重要指标之一。
It makes it easy to help them maintain their ideal weight, which is one of the biggest predictors of a longer, healthier life.
听着，无论是狗狗还是人类，都不该顿顿吃过度加工的食品。
Look, no one, dog or human should be eating overly processed foods for every meal.
而且这与狗狗的年龄无关。
And it doesn't matter how old your dog is.
现在就是为它们的健康和幸福投资的最佳时机。
It's always a great time to start investing in their health and happiness.
今天就试试农夫狗粮吧。
So try the Farmer's Dog today.
在farmersdog.com/rogan上购买，首盒新鲜健康狗粮可享五折优惠。
You can get 50% off your first box of fresh, healthy food at the farmersdog.com/rogan.
此外，还免运费。
Plus, you get free shipping.
只需访问farmersdog.com/rogan即可。
Just go to the farmersdog.com/rogan.
点击横幅或访问本期节目页面了解更多详情。
Tap the banner or visit this episode's page to learn more.
此优惠仅适用于新客户。
Offer applicable for new customers only.
甚至只是对它吹口气。
Even just breathing on it.
对吧？
Right?
是啊。
Yeah.
或者掉一根睫毛。
Or or dropping an eyelash.
在圣克鲁兹的实验室以及全球各地的古DNA实验室里，我们就像在病毒实验室工作一样对一切小心翼翼，但我们的防护方向恰恰相反。
When in my lab at Santa Cruz and in ancient DNA labs around the world, we have these really it's like working in a virus lab where you're scared of everything, but we turn turn it around.
我们不是让空气被吸入，而是努力将空气向外排出。
So rather than having the air being sucked in, we're kind of trying to push the air out.
我们不希望任何外部空气进入。
We don't want any air coming in.
我们穿着全套防护服——戴着口罩和发网，全身包裹严实，看起来就像如临大敌，所有物品都要用漂白剂消毒。
We're we're not we wear these suits where it looks like we're terrified, you know, with a face mask and hairnet, and we're totally covered, and we bleach everything.
这不是因为我们害怕那些骨头。
It's not because we're afraid of those bones.
我们是担心自己的DNA会污染骨头样本，导致实验无法进行。
We're afraid that we're gonna get our DNA in that bone, and then we're not gonna be able to do it.
当然。
Of course.
是的。
Yeah.
因此，正是这种能力——能够扩增那些微小的DNA片段——才让我们真正意识到我们可以从物体中提取DNA。
So it took that and be the ability to amplify those tiny little pieces of DNA for us to really figure out that we could get DNA out of things.
很长一段时间里，人们都认为我们永远无法从尼安德特人骨骼中提取DNA，就是因为这个污染问题。
For a long time, people thought we were never gonna get DNA out of Neanderthal bones because of this problem.
要知道，我们一旦触碰骨骼，
You know, we we touch a bone.
就只会获取到人类DNA，根本无法区分差异。
We're just gonna get human DNA, and we're never gonna be able to know the difference.
但通过PCR技术和在这些洁净实验室中区分污染的能力，我们最终完成了尼安德特人全基因组的测序，这可能是古DNA领域最辉煌的成就之一。
But then with PCR and with the ability to work in these clean labs and distinguish, we eventually got hole in Neanderthal genomes, which I think is probably one of the crowning achievements of my field, ancient DNA.
斯万特·帕博几年前因此获得了诺贝尔奖。
Svante Pavo won the Nobel Prize a few years ago for this.
他们是从什么中提取出来的？
What did they extract it from?
骨头。
Bones.
不同的骨头。
Different bones.
实际上，第一个尼安德特人基因组序列是混合了几块骨头的样本，因为每块骨头中的DNA含量都很少，他们设法将其整合在一起。
The the very first Neanderthal genome sequence was actually a mixture of several bones because, you know, there wasn't very much DNA in any of them, and they were able to pull it together.
那其实是我丈夫参与的团队，他们完成了第一个尼安德特人基因组序列的组装。
That's actually my husband, who was on part of that team, who put together the first Neanderthal genome sequence.
哇。
Wow.
是啊。
Yeah.
很酷。
It was cool.
那真的很酷。
That's really cool.
但丹尼索瓦人，就是那个丹尼索瓦洞穴发现的古人，他们当时只有一小节指骨碎片，完全没想到这会属于一个全新的人类物种。
But then the Denisovans, the Denisova people, that was just a tiny little piece of a finger bone that they had no idea was gonna belong to a totally new species of human.
对吧？
Right?
他们居然能从这么一小节指骨中提取出高覆盖度的完整基因组，彻底改写了我们对进化史的认知。
And they were able to get a really high coverage whole genome out of this tiny little finger bone that totally rewrote what we thought we knew about evolutionary history.
而且这是相当近期的发现。
And that's pretty recently.
对吧？
Right?
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
就在过去十年间。
Within the last decade.
我和杰米最近做了期播客节目。
Jamie and I were we we did a podcast recently.
我们当时在讨论那些大脑袋的人。
We were talking about the big head people.
他们叫什么来着？
What are they called again?
什么
What
是什么？
was it?
好像是朱利安尼之类的。
Giuliani or something.
朱丽安的我见过这个。
Julianne's I've seen this.
这是最近才发生的。
This is really recently.
非常近。
Super recent.
他们在2024年12月发布了这篇论文。
It was December 2024 they released this paper.
是啊。
Yeah.
超级酷。
Super cool.
这正凸显了我们有多少未知。
And it just highlights how much we don't know.
对吧？
Right?
特别是在古人类学领域。
How every especially in paleoanthropology.
在这个领域里，你知道，人们会采取，就像是的。
And this is a field where, you know, people will take, like yeah.
珠宝商仁。
Jeweler ren.
珠宝商仁尼斯。
Jeweler renesis.
一种已灭绝的人类物种，拥有异常巨大的头骨，曾与智人共存。
Lost species of humans with an abnormally large skull, which lived alongside Homo sapiens.
他们在约30万至5万年前生活在中国，后来灭绝了。
So they died off somewhere they lived in China between 300,050 years ago.
是的。
Yeah.
如果他们能够与人类繁殖，他们很可能确实这么做了。
And so if they were able to breed with humans, they probably did.
他们很可能与尼安德特人繁殖，也很可能与丹尼索瓦人繁殖，因为，你知道，这就是我们的天性。
And they probably bred with Neanderthals, and they probably bred with Denisovans because, you know, that's what we do.
真是疯狂。
Wild stuff.
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
然后当然还有霍比特人，弗洛勒斯岛上的那些人。
And then, course, of the Hobbit people, the island of Flores people.
对。
Yep.
弗洛勒斯。
Flores.
非常矮小。
Little tiny.
至今仍没人能从那些样本中提取出DNA。
No one has still been able to get DNA from those samples now.
但是，我是说
But, I mean
所以只有骨头。
So it's just bones.
总有一天会成功的。
Someday it'll happen.
我们尝试过。
We've tried.
斯庞特的团队尝试过。
Sponte's team has tried.
很多人都尝试过。
A lot of people have attempted.
只是它们降解得太严重了。
It's just they're too degraded.
它们来自炎热地区。
They're from a hot place.
所有那些会降解DNA的因素，它们
All of those things that degrade DNA, they
对。
Right.
在高温环境下会降解得更快
It happens faster in
高温 是的。
a hot Yeah.
可能还有更多有待发现的发现。
There's probably a lot more to be discovered too.
太多了。
So much.
他们实际上只在一个地点有所发现。
They only really found it out of one location.
对吧？
Right?
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