第3集 - 舰长之后（上）

欢迎收听。您正在收听的是伊恩和迈克的节目。这里是《爱人之洞》播客，我们将深入探讨帕特里克·奥布莱恩的整个海军小说系列。

Welcome. You're with Ian And Mike. And this is The Lover's Hole, the podcast that explores the entire series of naval novels by Patrick O'Brien.

如果您已经欣赏过第一集和第二集后加入我们，感谢回来。很高兴再次有您相伴。

If you're joining us having already enjoyed episodes one and two, thanks for coming back. It's great to have you with us again.

如果您是第一次收听，欢迎登船。我们希望您能立刻感到宾至如归。那么，迈克，我们来想想现在讲到系列哪部分了。上次我们结束了《舰长与指挥官》，对吧？

And if you're picking it up for the first time, welcome aboard. We hope that you're gonna feel at home right away. So, Mike, let's just think where we are in the series. We got finished last time with master and commander. Right?

简单给我描绘一下杰克·奥布雷和史蒂芬·马图林的故事目前进展到了哪里。

Just paint paint me a picture of where we've got to in the in the story so far of Jack, Aubrey, and Steven Maturin.

嗯，我跟你说，伊恩。在《舰长与指挥官》中，我们花了很多时间在岸上，早期是跟着舰长兼指挥官杰克·奥布雷和他的医生朋友史蒂芬·马图林相遇。我们见证了他们的命运起伏。跟随了许多行动，但也跟进了许多角色发展和故事线。我们上次把英雄们留在了哪里？

Well, I'll tell you what, Ian. What we did in Mastering Commander, we got a lot of time onshore early on with with Jack Aubrey, the master and commander, and Stephen Matron, his physician friend, meeting one another. We watched their fortunes rise and fall. And we followed a lot of action, but we also followed a lot of character development and a lot of story. And where did we leave our heroes?

我们讲到杰克因他的指挥官索菲被法国人俘虏而在军事法庭上被宣告无罪。所以杰克和史蒂芬自由了，但暂时无船可指挥，我想，在地中海的直布罗陀，那就是我们离开他们的地方， presumably ready to head home（ presumably 准备回家）。而行动就是从那里继续的，我认为，是《舰长》的开头。

We got to the point where, Jack had been acquitted at his court martial for having had his, had his commander Sophie captured by the French. So Jack and Steven are, free but temporarily shipless, I guess, in the Mediterranean in Gibraltar, and that that was where we left them presumably ready to head home. And that's where the action picks up, I think, the beginning of, of post captain.

是的。而且他们两个，我猜，都以为自己的口袋，尤其是杰克的口袋，会因为所有他俘获的奖品而装满钱，你知道，他现在是大家口中的幸运杰克·奥布雷。

Yeah. And both of them, I guess, presuming their pockets to be, especially Jack's pockets to be full of money from all the prizes that he's taken as the, you know, his now Lucky Jack Aubrey as everybody calls him.

对。并且沿着西班牙海岸俘获了那一大批小型沿岸货船后，他还拿下了那艘巨大的、威胁性的法国护卫舰卡卡菲戈号，我想他相当确定那笔钱能让他在财务上宽裕好一阵子。他和船上的其他人，包括史蒂芬和马图林，你知道，口袋里 literal and figuratively jingling coins（字面和比喻上都叮当作响）。

Right. And having taken that big series of little coasting cargo vessels along the coast of Spain, he'd taken this big, menacing French frigate, the Cacafuego, and I think was pretty sure that that was him set financially for a for a good while. Him and the rest of the crew, including Steve and Mattarin, you know, all jangling coins literally and figuratively in their pockets.

所以我理解，作为一个英国人，想到宿敌，英国海军的对手，会是法国护卫舰卡卡菲戈号。但再提醒我一下，卡卡菲戈号是法国的吗？

So I I understand, you know, as as an Englishman that thinking about the nemesis, the English navy, it would be the French frigate, Cacafuego. But remind me again, was the Cacafuego French?

这里是来自未来的伊恩。我的好朋友迈克给了我机会纠正我愚蠢的错误，把卡卡菲戈号叫成法国护卫舰，而我却完全错过了。回到节目。卡卡菲戈号是西班牙的，故事是这样的，因为索菲号特别针对巴塞罗那和图伦之间沿岸的西班牙交通进行掠夺，西班牙商人们委托装备和配备了这艘船，拉·卡卡菲戈号，出去基本上代表西班牙商人，看看能否俘获或至少赶走或威慑索菲号，那艘以其微小体型造成巨大麻烦的船。但我有个问题要问你，迈克。

This is Ian from the future. My good friend Mike's offering me the chance to correct my dumbass mistake, calling the Cacafuego a French frigate, and I'm gonna completely tread all over it. Back to the show. Cacafuego was Spanish, and the the story has it that, because the, the Sophie had been praying particularly on Spanish traffic going along the coast between kind of Barcelona and Toulon, that Spanish merchants had commissioned the fitting out and crewing of this vessel, La Cacafuego, to go out and basically on behalf of the Spanish merchants, see if they could take or at least see off or deter the Sophie that was causing so much trouble in proportion to her diminutive size. But I've got a question for you, Mike.

很多人说过，《怒海争锋》有点像是一次性的作品，可以说是像电视剧的试播集，而转向创作《舰长与指挥官》才是帕特里克·奥布莱恩开始规划真正多部小说故事线的时刻，因此那是某种新事物的开始。你对这个观点怎么看？

Lots of people said that, Master and Commander was written as kind of a one off, you might say, like the pilot of a TV series, and that turning to pick up and write post captain was the moment where Patrick O'Brien began to plot a sort of genuinely multi novel arc, and that it was therefore the beginning of something new. What do you think about that idea?

嗯，这很有趣。虽然这里有对奥布里和马图林的初步介绍，还有哈特舰长和莫莉·哈特，但我无法想象一部独立小说会以这位舰长——你知道——在听到自己的军事法庭判决宣读时撞破头作为结局。我们拥有你谈到的那个美好情节，他的剑被归还，他的荣誉如此崇高，以至于无论是敌人还是同僚总是会归还它。但我就是无法想象，如果他心中没有其他打算，他会以那样的音符结束故事。

Well, it's interesting. There is a bit of this introduction of Aubrey and Matron, and we've got Captain Hart and Molly Hart, but I can't imagine a one off novel ending with this captain, you know, busting his head as he hears the sentence read out as his own court martial and that's it. You know, we we have that beautiful thing that you talked about with his sword being returned and how his honor is such that it has always been returned by enemy and by his colleagues alike. But I just can't imagine that if he did not have something else in mind, he would have ended it quite on that note.

是的。我同意你的看法。我的意思是，没错，每个成功的电视剧试播集编剧都会在结尾写点悬念，但我认为这比那更大，不是吗？

Yeah. I'm I'm with you as well. I mean, yeah, every writer of a successful TV pilot writes a bit of a cliffhanger at the end, but I think it's bigger than that, isn't it?

哦，是的。

The Oh, yeah.

他显然在构思这些角色时就已经有了发展的计划，特别是，你知道，那里有丰富的角色塑造、幽默和关系的矿脉，我确信他当时——就像美国人可能会说的——他甚至在写《怒海争锋》的时候，就在打一场相当长远的球了。

He clearly set these characters up with with with developments in mind and with particularly, you know, there there were rich veins of characterization and humor and and and relationships are sure that I think he was he was playing, as they might say, in America. He was playing some pretty long ball even when he, when he when he wrote Master and Commander.

毫无疑问。所以

No doubt about So

总的来说，迈克，是时候看大局了。与《怒海争锋》相比，你觉得《舰长与指挥官》怎么样？

overall so overall, Mike, big picture time. How did you enjoy post captain compared to Master and Commander?

嗯，这很有趣，因为我几乎觉得……我的意思是，当我重读《怒海争锋》时，我想，天哪，我记得我为什么如此喜爱帕特里克·奥布莱恩了。我记得我为什么喜爱奥布里和马图林以及他们的关系。我记得我为什么如此喜爱这个系列。然后我重读了《舰长与指挥官》，心想，哦我的天哪，还有这么多内容。所以就是这样，一切在《怒海争锋》中承诺的，我认为也都兑现了，但在《舰长与指挥官》中，可能放大了十倍。

Well, it's interesting because I almost felt like I mean, when I read Mastering Commander again, thought, gosh, I remember why I love Patrick O'Brien so much. I remember why I love Aubrey and Matron and the relationship. I remember why I love the series so much. And then I reread Post Captain went, oh my gosh, there's so much more. So here it is, everything promised and I think delivered in Master Commander, but delivered maybe 10x in Post Captain.

对。哦，哇。这个评价相当高啊。我也得说，如果在我们开始做这个播客之前你问我哪本是我的最爱，我会说是《舰长与指挥官》。很好。

Right. Oh, wow. That's a bit that's, that's going pretty high. I've gotta say too, if you'd asked me before we sat down to start this podcast, which is my favorite, I would have said post captain. Nice.

但我认为，随着我们进行这次重读，我挖掘得如此深入，以至于我觉得我可能也在重新评估他们的一些后期作品。但不管怎样，对我来说，《舰长与指挥官》比《怒海争锋》更长，我认为我们将迎来一个非常宏大、内容充实的故事。有趣的是，我们在播客中开始看到的一件很棒的事情是，我们收到了听众的一些反馈。我们的一个朋友皮特联系我说，他很高兴我们没有急于求成，一次一本书、一集一个故事地赶进度。部分原因，他告诉我，他已经有两本计划要读的书，正留着准备将来度假时看。

But I I think that I'm digging so deep as we do the reread that I think I might be appraising some of their later books as well. But anyhow, post captain for me, it's it's longer than master and commander, and I think we're in for a really big kind of meaty story. Interestingly, one of the great things that we've started to see on the podcast is we get some feedback from our listeners. One of our friends, Pete, got in touch to say that he was glad that we're not racing through kind of a book at a time, a book at an episode. Partly, he said to me that, he's got two that he's already planning to read that he's holding in reserve for holidays in the future.

所以，首先感谢你的评论，皮特。其次，我们会尽量避免剧透后续的关键情节。请放心，《舰长大人》是一个内容丰富的故事。所以我想我们会慢慢来品味这本书。

So a, thanks for the comment, Pete. And b, we're gonna try and avoid critical spoilers for you for later on. And rest assured, post captain's a meaty story. So I think we're gonna take our time over this one.

那么皮特，在不剧透后续情节的前提下，我想花点时间回顾一下《怒海争锋》，伊恩。我不仅听了这本书——这算是我偏好的方式——还重新阅读了一遍。让我感触很深的是：它既适合听也适合读，而两者兼得更是美妙，因为我发现只听音频会错过《怒海争锋》里的许多细节。比如帕特里克·奥布莱恩对银行系统的独特表述。书中有一段，他训斥见习船员们：“你们上次给家里写信是什么时候？我要你们提醒父母，我的银行家是‘whores’。”

So, Pete, without giving away any, any of these spoilers going ahead, I I wanted to dig back for just a second, Ian, to Master and Commander and say that I not only listened to it, which is is kind of my preferred way of doing, but I went back and reread it as well. And one of the things that came up for me is is it's it's great to listen to, it's great to read, and it's wonderful to do both because I realized that I missed a number of things in Mastering Commander by only listening. One of which was what I thought was, you know, Patrick O'Brien's take on the banking system. He's in a I'm in a there in Master and Commander, he's sort of taken the midshipman to task and he's told them, When's the last time you wrote your families? I need you to remind your parents that my bankers are whores.

我当时心想：哇，这说法真大胆？他还在甲板上对着他们喊了两次。但当我读纸质书时，发现原文是首字母大写的“H O A R E S”。我琢磨这到底是什么意思？一查才知道，这是英格兰最古老的私人银行机构。原来“我的银行家是霍尔斯家族”啊！

And I thought, Wow, that's quite the thing to Really? He shouted it twice and he is kind of dictating to them on the deck of the ship. But when I read the book, was like, it was H O A R E S with a capital H and I thought, what does that mean? So I looked it up and realized this is the oldest private banking establishment in England. All my bankers are whores.

我觉得这又是帕特里克·奥布莱恩的一个精妙文字游戏。现在我得把《舰长大人》也既听又读，看看还错过了哪些细节。

I think it's just for me another one of Patrick O'Brien's wonderful joke. Now I've got to do posthappen both ways and see what else I missed.

太精彩了。这确实是个值得深入探讨的话题。重温任何心爱的系列丛书都是一种享受，尤其是奥布莱恩的作品——无论是纸质书、电子书还是通过朗读者声音塑造的听觉体验。如果听众朋友们有观点，你们更喜欢电子书？还是更爱翻页的触感？

Excellent. Well, that's an interesting thing that we should think about in more depth. The pleasure of going through any favorite book series, but these books in particular, on written words on the page, either on the paper or on a Kindle versus the pleasure of hearing them being characterized by a reader. So if you're out there in in listener land and you've got a point of view, do you like the Kindle? Do you like turning the pages?

你们看重这种双向体验吗？还是像我们一样喜爱有声书，让故事流淌而过，享受叙述者的声音演绎和讲故事技巧？告诉我们你的偏好和理由，或许在后续播客中我们可以进一步探讨这个话题。

Do you value that kind of back and forth? Or are you one of us who likes the audiobook experience where you can let it wash over and enjoy the kind of the vocal characterizations and the storytelling skill of the narrator? Tell us what you like. Tell us why you like it, and, maybe we can explore that some more as we go through some more of these podcasts.

这主意很棒。伊恩，对于想知道《舰长大人》故事背景的听众，你刚精彩地总结了《怒海争锋》的结局，现在处于什么时间节点？历史背景如何？正在发生什么？

That would be neat. Ian, for, you know, for the folks who are sort of saying, so where are we as we start back here in post Captain? You just did a really nice job wrapping up the end of master and commander, where are we in time? Where are we in history? What's going on?

好问题。我可能要轻微剧透第一章：关键情节是1802年3月左右，斯蒂芬和杰克乘船回国时发现战争结束了。拿破仑革命战争的这一阶段画上句号，《亚眠和约》已签署。历史迷都知道，该和约签订于3月25日。

Good question. So I'm I'm I'm gonna make a spoiler for chapter one, and I'm gonna say that the key action of chapter one is that taking a ride in a ship home in around March '2, the big discovery for Stephen and Jack is that the war's over. This particular bout of the Napoleonic revolutionary wars is over. The piece of Amiens has been signed. The piece of Amiens, as all us history nerds are gonna know, was the March 25.

这就引出一个疑问：熟悉海军历史的人知道，他们此前在直布罗陀附近参加了第二次阿尔赫西拉斯海战（史实发生于1801年7月）。从海战结束后的军事审判到1802年《亚眠和约》签署，这八九个月他们在岸上做了什么？不过考虑到奥布莱恩后期需要巧妙规避史实，我们对时间线的小幅调整应当宽容，我觉得他处理得还不错。

So that kind of raises a bit of a question. If you also know your naval history, you know that they were in in and around Gibraltar for the second battle of Algeciras, which was in the real world in July '1. I wonder what they were doing ashore for what? Eight or nine months between the court martial at the end of Battle of Algeciras and, and a piece of Amion being signed in 1802. But I I think we can give forgive O'Brien for a month or two here and there given how hard he has to work to step around the realities of history later on, I think I think he does okay.

但没错，这是小说创作。奥布莱恩的宇宙在某些时间线上必然与现实不同。我记得他在某本书的序言中提过，不得不反复使用1812年这个年份。确实如此。以上就是他们所处的背景。

But, yeah, this is a fiction. The O'Brien's universe is, in some places, gonna have to have a very different timeline from the real one. I think he mentioned in one of his books in the in one of the introductions that, you know, he had to use the year 1812 many many times over. That's right. So, here's where they are.

马图林和奥布里在回家的路上，和平已经降临。我们迎来了他们在一栋漂亮的乡间别墅寄宿的开篇章节。他们成为了年轻的单身乡绅。迈克，当我们读到这个开篇章节时，我突然觉得我们仿佛置身于一部轻松版的简·奥斯汀小说的开头。

Matarine and Aubrey on the way home, peace has broken out. And we get this opening episode of them taking lodgings in a nice country house. They get to be young bachelor squires. And Mike, this just struck me as we've landed in the opening chapter of a lighthearted version of a Jane Austen novel.

确实如此。我的意思是，你看到所有这些男人一起打理家务，这些水手们聚在一起。但真正展开的情节不仅仅发生在斯蒂芬和杰克的房子里。我们沿着小路往下走一点。你知道，我们被欢迎来到那里的另一栋房子。

Well, it's so true. I mean, you've got all these men sort of keeping house, you know, all these sailors together. But the real action that starts up here isn't just in Stephen and Jack's house. We go down the lane a bit. You know, we're welcomed to a house there.

在开篇段落中，我们仿佛完全置身于简·奥斯汀的小说世界。我们被直接带入女性世界，尽管据我了解，简·奥斯汀从未写过男性单独对话的场景，因为她说过，你知道，我从未经历过那种情况，所以我不会那样写。因此帕特里克·奥布莱恩敢于涉足简·奥斯汀未曾涉足的领域，将我们直接带入这个资产阶级的、你知道的，任性、焦虑、特权、泼辣、沉迷于浪漫婚姻的当日女性世界——威廉姆斯夫人和她的所有女儿们以及她们的表姐戴安娜。

And in the opening passages, it's kind of like we are absolutely in a Jane Austen novel here. So what we are brought into direct contact with the female world, although as I understand it, Jane Austen never wrote direct dialogue between men alone speaking together because she said, you know, I never experienced that. So I wouldn't do that. So Patrick O'Brien sort of dares to tread where Jane Austen hasn't and takes us right into this bourgeois, you know, petulant, anxious, privileged, shrewish kind of romantic marriage obsessed female world of the day with Mrs. Williams and all of her daughters and their cousin Diana.

我们被介绍了三位非常生动且截然不同的女性主角：威廉姆斯夫人、索菲和戴安娜。奥布莱恩通过她们的视角向我们展示了杰克·奥布里和斯蒂芬生活早期的一些日子和 weeks。我们甚至遇到了一位海军上将，一个带有19世纪喜剧色彩的名字——哈多克上将，对吧？是的，哈多克上将。

And we're introduced to three really colorful and very different female lead characters, Mrs. Williams, Sophie, and Diana. And O'Brien uses their point of view to show us some of the early days and weeks of Jack Albury and Stephen's lives, of sure. We even get an admiral, a nineteenth century comedy surname, that is gonna give us- Admiral Haddock, right? Yeah, Admiral Haddock.

所以，你知道，我们将认识这位名字如此有趣的海军上将，他住在当地，可以给女孩们提供一些关于她们两位新邻居的背景信息，并带来一些乐趣。

So, know, we're gonna get this seagoing admiral with a name like that, having a little fun, who's kind of lives locally and can give the girls a little background on their two new neighbors.

没错。而且这并不完全是恭维。他非常非常间接地传递了一个事实：杰克·奥布里有点花花公子的名声。是的。而斯蒂芬·马图林的身世有点不确定。但一旦他们被确立为可拜访、可交往、可访问的中产阶级成员，你知道，就有了兴奋感，女性们都在想，嗯，这里有潜在的丈夫，我们或许可以深入其中的社交生活。

Right. And it's not entirely complimentary. He passes on very, very indirectly the fact that Jack Aubrey's got a bit of a reputation for being a bit of a rake Yeah. And that Steven Matsherin's parentage is a bit uncertain. But once they're established as callable, clubable, visitable members of the middle class, you know, there's there's excitement and the the females are thinking, well, there are potential husbands here and there's a social life that we might be able to delve into.

我们稍后可能会讨论对女性角色的整体刻画，因为在第一本书中已经稍微提及女性，当然第一本书中那个主要的女性角色，杰克的情妇莫莉·哈特，被描绘成，你知道，美丽但也是杰克和其他男人的操纵者。你知道，与对螳螂的描述并列——吃掉配偶的头。我认为我们现在有了更接地气、更真实、更有趣的女性角色。我不知道如果有人分析这种写作的性别政治会怎么说。但对我来说，你知道，我们看到的女性尽管做着简·奥斯汀时代的那种事——追求浪漫、婚姻和经济独立。

We might get to talk later on about the coverage of the female characters generally because having written about females a little bit in passing in the first book and certainly the the one major female character in the first book, Molly Hart, Jack's mistress is portrayed as, you know, beautiful but also a manipulator of Jack and of other men. You know, portrayed in juxtaposition with the description of a praying mantis, you know, eating the head off of her mate. We've got actual more grounded, more real, more kind of interesting female characters, I think. I've got no idea what anybody would say if they analyze the gender politics of this writing. But for me, know, we've got women doing even though they're doing kind of Jane Austen era, you know, striving for romance and marriage and financial independence.

她们以细致入微且不同的方式行事。我真的很高兴，在《主人与指挥官》结尾充斥的所有睾丸激素氛围中，我们有一些像样的女性角色可以讨论。

They're doing it in nuanced and different ways. And I'm I'm really happy that we've got some proper female characters to talk about in amongst all the kind of testosterone that was around at the end of Master and Commander.

太对了。而且是一些非常独立的女性角色，一些坚持己见的角色，尽管有些人的做法更违背当时的普遍规范和社会体系，而其他人则在体系内行事，但仍然是独立和固执的。我很喜欢读那部分。

Too true. And some some very independent female characters and characters who are going to have their own way, although do it in a way that some more against prevailing norms in the system and others within it, but still independent and headstrong. I enjoyed reading that.

是的，绝对如此。我认为‘固执’可能是你在词典里查威廉姆斯夫人时会看到的词。她真是一股自然的力量，是索菲的母亲。所以，我们有了住在租来的乡绅别墅里的男人们。

Yeah, absolutely. I think headstrong is probably the word that you get in the dictionary when you look up a Mrs. Williams. She's a real force of nature, the mother of Sophie. So we've got men in a rented squire's country house.

我们社区里有女性对将马匹带入社交圈很感兴趣。还有另一个物种在早期的故事叙述中扮演了角色，那就是马。所以，Mike，你对马有独到见解。我们第一次见到马作为这些角色生活的一部分是什么时候？

We've got women in the neighborhood who are interested in bringing them into the social circle. We've got another species that plays a part in the storytelling earlier on. That that's horses. So, Mike, you've got a point of view about horses. What was the first time that we met we met horses as part of the life of these characters?

我记不起来了。

I can't remember.

嗯，我想是在某次早期的猎狐活动中，记得Jack甚至在考虑租房子时就说，啊，苏塞克斯那地方不错，那里会有很棒的猎狐活动。哦，我真想自己有一匹猎马。他当时就在想着能拥有马匹去那里猎狐。有趣的是，在这第一个场景中，我们有一位骑马而来的女性，书中有对她及其性格的精彩描述，她如何吸引所有人的目光，尤其是她与马相处和骑马的姿态。还有Stephen Matron，我记得他骑的是一头驴。

Well, I I think it's it's in that, you know, one of the early fox hunts that Jack, even when Jack was looking at renting a place was saying, Ah, you know, here's a great place up in Sussex, and, you know, there'll be some great fox hunting there. Oh, I'd love to have myself a hunter. And he's thinking about the horse he can have and to go fox hunting out there. And interestingly, you know, in this first scene, so we've got, one of the women who rides in and, you know, there's a great description of her and her character and how she turns all the heads, particularly the way she is with her horse and on her horse. And we've got Stephen Matron, who's, as I recall, is riding an ass.

对我来说，我能想象出Aubrey船长骑在高大的猎马上，而Stephen几乎像是悠闲地坐在驴背上，忙着他的自然历史研究。从那里开始，书中出现了各种各样的马，还有那段马的意识流场景。

And, you know, it's just so to me, I can see, you know, Captain Aubrey on this huge hunter horse and Stephen kind of almost, you know, in a lounge chair of a donkey there, you know, being about his natural history business. And from there, we've just got all kinds of horse examples, as well as this horse's stream of consciousness scene.

哦，对了，我们还进入了马的内心世界。那段真有趣。

Oh yeah, we go inside the mind of the horse. That was funny.

是啊，马在说，想着背上的Jack，太重了，坐得太靠前，等我们越过栅栏，我今天已经驮他够久了。我很快就要把他甩下去。等着瞧吧。哦，是母马。我闻到母马的气味了。

Yeah, you know, the horse is saying, know, thinking about Jack up there, too heavy, sits too far forward, and when we go over a fence, I've I've carried him far enough for one day. I shall have him off presently. See if I don't. Oh, a mare. I smell a mare.

一匹母马。哦。我们上次提到过Patrick O'Brien喜欢让次要角色登场并赋予一些深度。现在，Diana骑马的样子有着水手在汹涌海面上掌舵时那种不自觉的优雅。而对女士们来说，这匹马是Williams夫人给的贿赂，意思是，我女儿Sophie觉得和Aubrey船长很般配，我希望你离船长远点，Diana。这匹马给你，去和马玩吧。

A mare. Oh. And so, you know, we've mentioned last time about, Patrick O'Brien's penchant for bringing minor characters into play and and getting a little depth here. Now, you know, Diana sitting her horse with the unconscious grace of a midshipman at the tiller at a lively sea. And this horse, in the case of the ladies, has been a bribe from Mrs.

Williams夫人以此表示：我认为我女儿Sophie和Aubrey船长相配极了，Diana，请你离船长远点。这匹马送给你，去和马玩吧。

Williams to say, My daughter Sophie, I think would be a great match for Captain Aubrey, and I want you to leave the captain alone, Diana. Here's a horse for you. Go play with the horse.

所以马被用来暗示角色的意图和地位，同时也在故事中扮演干扰或削弱情节发展的角色。我觉得这很棒。Mike，你认为他对一匹雄性猎马的心理描写真实吗？根据你个人与马相处的经验，你觉得他捕捉到位了吗？我认为他确实把握到了一些精髓。

So we're getting the horses used as a way of signaling the kind of intentions and the status of the characters and we're the horses playing a role in, you know, disturbing or undercutting the action of the story as well. Think it's great. Do do you think he's got an authentic take on the mentality of a of a male hunter horse? Do you think that's from what you did from from your own personal experience of horses, Mike? I think he's onto something there.

目睹过不止一匹马如何失蹄摔倒之后，我认为他对那匹马的描写非常到位。

Having watched the, tale of more than one how horses, went down over the back. I I think he had a great take on that horse.

精彩。

Brilliant.

果然不出所料，你知道，我不认为那是——我想那只是稍晚些时候在章节里。杰克跃过一道栅栏，稍微失去了一点平衡，马就说，就这样吧。它稍稍移动了一下，然后把他拖在马镫上。

And and sure enough of, know, I don't think it was I think it was just later in the chapter. Jack cleared a fence, lost his balance just a little bit, and the horse said, that's it. Shifted just a little bit and then drug him along in the stirrup.

所以我们有这种，就像我们说的，有点像简·奥斯汀式的微观世界，这两个海军动作英雄类型的人物降落在这个世界里，老实说，他们有点格格不入。对吧？事物都很陌生。他们正在摸索。当地女性的礼仪和风俗习惯有点神秘。

So we've got this kind of like like we said sort of micro Jane Austen world where these two naval action hero types have landed in this world where they're to be honest, they're they're a bit out of place. Right? The things are unfamiliar. They're finding their way. Manners and the kind of mores of of the local women folk are a bit of a mystery.

比如晚餐时的酒不怎么样。她们对该上多少布丁毫无概念，但你知道，他们很乐意将就，因为女性同伴很吸引人。有趣的是，我们没有看到 flirtation 被长篇大论地展开，就像在更传统的浪漫小说中那样，所以我们基本上在一两段中就得知威廉姆斯夫人已经认定杰克是索菲的佳偶。而且，你知道，索菲也喜欢杰克，并且欢呼着去图书馆自学。嗯，

Like the wine's not great at dinner. They've got no notion of how much pudding to serve, but you know, they're they're quite happy to go along because the the female company is attractive. It's funny we don't get the flirtation played out at great length the way that you might in a sort of a more traditional romantic novel so we pretty much in a paragraph or two we get that Mrs Williams has decided that Jack is the one for Sophie. And, you know, Sophie is keen on Jack as well, and cheers, goes to the library and educates herself. Well,

这很有趣。所以你看，威廉姆斯夫人已经请戴安娜清场。索菲，如你所说，去了海军上将的图书馆学习所有这些航海术语，让自己变得更有趣一点。结果却发现戴安娜比她先到，而且戴安娜在去图书馆的路上看到索菲时还稍微嘲弄了她一下，说：你好啊，船友。

it it is interesting. So you've got, you know, missus Williams has asked Diana to clear the field. Sophie, as you say, has gone to the admiral's library to learn about all the all these nautical terms and to make herself a little more interesting. Only to find out that Diana was there before her, And Diana taunts her a little bit as she sees Sophie on the way to the library saying, hello there, shipmate.

哦，是的。她有点在取笑索菲。是的。然后我们很快就进入了这个。斯蒂芬·马图林和戴安娜·维利尔斯之间有一种轻松的玩笑式对话。

Oh, yeah. She's kind of taking a bit of a rise out of Sophie. Yeah. And well, then we quickly get into this. There's this kind of easy bantering conversation between Steven Maturin and Diana Villiers.

记得我读的时候在想，哦，好吧，事情会水到渠成的。你知道，美丽、温柔、富有同情心的索菲将会是咋咋呼呼的英雄杰克·奥布里的佳偶，而古怪、机智、独立聪明的戴安娜将会是，你知道，独立思考的哲学家型斯蒂芬·马图林的佳偶，他们之间有这些相当戏谑、相当坦率的对话，这很有趣。但我仍然觉得，你知道，我们应该能领会到戴安娜其实不会那么忠诚，尽管她喜欢和斯蒂芬开玩笑，她仍然有能力给他带来一些情感上的伤害。

Remember as I read it thinking, oh, okay, things are gonna fall into place. You know, kind of beautiful, gentle, kind sympathetic Sophie is gonna be the one for blustering hero Jack Aubrey and kind of quirky whip smart independently brainy Diana is gonna be the one for kind of, you know, independent philosopher minded Stephen Matron and they have these quite quite bantering, quite candid conversations, it's it's funny. But I still get the sense that, you know, we're we're meant to to pick up that Diana's really not gonna be that faithful, for all she likes, the banter with Steven, she's still gonna have the capacity to do him some emotional damage.

是的。而且这是一种，我不知道。对我来说，这是一个非常可怕的想法。因为，你知道，我们在《主人与指挥官》中看到杰克有女人，但我想了想，你知道，没有女人与斯蒂芬·马图林有关，然后我突然想到，我相信，在《主人与指挥官》的一开始，你知道，当斯蒂芬从梦中醒来，在那个第一个辉煌的早晨，所有第一本书的主要角色，你知道，迪伦、奥布里、马图林都聚在一起时，奥布莱恩做得很好，描述了那天早上他们每个人醒来时发生的事情。马图林正从一个他显然爱过、显然伤透了他的心的女孩的梦中醒来。

Yeah. And that's it's a it's a very I don't know. For me, it's a it's a very scary thought. Because, you know, we didn't we had Jack with women in Master and Commander, but I thought back, you know, there were no women, you know, involved with Stephen Matron, and then it occurred to me that, I believe, at the very beginning of Master and Commander, you know, as Stephen is waking up from a dream on that first glorious morning when all the main, you know, protagonists of the first book are coming together, you know, Dylan and Aubrey and Mataran and O'Brien does such a nice job of having, you know, what happened that first, that morning as they each woke up. Matron's coming out of this dream of this girl that he obviously loved that apparently broke his heart.

而且，你知道，你得到了那个参考，但它太快了。然后我们差不多读完了书的其余部分。而在这里，我们有，你知道，有那个，不知道你是否想分享，斯蒂芬，我认为戴安娜·维利尔斯和斯蒂芬·马图林之间的第一次交流非常有趣和有意思，你知道，就在他们见面后，好像是，对，前一天。

And, you know, you get that reference, but it's so, you know, it's so quick. And then we go sort of the rest of the book. And, and here we have, you know, there's that, don't know if you wanted to share it, Steven, that I thought was incredibly funny and interesting scene between Diana Villars and Steven Matron kind of, you know, first interchange together after having met, like, yes, the day before.

哦，所以他在取笑她迟到。她说那是做女人的一个优势。是的。你确实知道我是个女人，对吧，马图林？然后他接着说，就这一个优势吗？

Oh, so he's teasing her about being late. And she says that that's the one advantage in being a woman. Yeah. You do know that I'm a woman, don't you, match her in? And then he goes on, is that the one?

是的。我太喜欢了。

Yeah. I love that.

是的。而且我觉得他被允许展现那种带着医生式科学超然感的戏谑——他会说：性别这种微不足道的偶然因素，怎能让一个有感知的存在（更别说像你这样聪明的人）浪费这个美好的早晨？我实在无法理解。来，让我帮你上马。他不断低声重复'性别'这个词，而她感到惊恐，因为她明白他的本意，但周围英国乡村的中产阶级们不会这样理解。她只能说：'嘘，马图林'。

Yeah. And and he I think he's allowed to play his kind of the the the banter comes with a little hint of his physician's kind of scientific detachment and he can say, you know, what why should the trifling accident of sex induce a sentient being, let alone a smart one like you, to waste this beautiful morning and I can't conceive why. Help me, let me get you help, let's come, let me help you get up on the horse and he keeps using this word sex, sex under his breath all over again. And she's horrified because she knows that he means it one way but the social bourgeoisie around them in the in the English countryside aren't gonna pick it up quite like that. And she says, hush Machen.

别在这儿说这种词。昨天已经够糟了。他反问：昨天怎么了？哦对，我可不是第一个说'智慧是思想意外交合'的人。

Don't use words like that around here. It was bad enough yesterday. And he says, what do you mean yesterday? Oh, that's right. I'm I'm not the first man to say that wit is the unexpected copulation of ideas.

你知道，这根本不算新鲜，根本是老生常谈。戴安娜回应：没错。但就我姑妈而言，你是第一个在公开场合用这个表达的男人。所以我觉得他们其实很享受彼此的陪伴。

You know, far from it. It's a common place. And Diana says, yes. But as far as my aunt is concerned, you are the first man who's ever used that expression in public. So I think they're, they're enjoying each other's company.

对吧？可能双方都带着些许不诚实。也许马图林像我们有些人一样，用幽默来保护那段初恋中受伤的自我；而她或许想扮演独立勇敢的女性形象，但实际上并没那么活泼大胆。

Right? It probably slightly, they're both being slightly dishonest with each other. You know, maybe Matron is like some of us does is using humor to defend the, the, the part of his character that was, as you say, harmed by that first relationship. And maybe she wants to play the part of being a kind of independent and lively and courageous woman, but she's perhaps not so lively and not so courageous.

我们现在稍作休息，请各位暂时停留在海岸线附近，我们马上回来。欢迎回到'帕特里克·奥布莱恩笔下的情人洞'播客。

We're gonna take a short break, so if you would just stand off and on on the coastline there, we'll be right back. Welcome back to the Lovers Hole Patrick O'Brien podcast.

我想谈谈戴安娜如何擅长打压男性。她这种高超技巧有时积极有趣，有时却极具破坏性——总能掌控局面。顺便说，这里有个世界级的放屁笑话，真要恭喜帕特里克·奥布莱恩。

I wanna just talk about how Diana seems equipped to put men down as well. She's got this great skill, sometimes in a positive and funny way, but also sometimes in quite a damaging way to take command of a situation. And by the way, this gives me the chance to mention what is, I think, a world class fart joke. Congratulations to Patrick O'Brien. Yeah.

戴安娜从表亲家返回参加穆尔贝里府的舞会时，见习舰长巴宾顿驾车有些慌张。她借着豆料喂饱的马匹发出雷鸣般长屁的时机，一边安抚他一边打压其气焰。巴宾顿在寂静中道歉，她却说：'没关系，我还以为是马呢'。

Diana's being taken back from her cousin's house to go to the ball at Mulberry Lodge, and, the midshipman, Babington, is a bit anxious and his driving's a bit wild. So she calms him down and to kinda put him in his place, she takes advantage of the moment when this bean fed horse emits a thunderous long, long fart. And Babington says, I beg your pardon, into the silence. And she says, oh, that's alright. I thought it was the horse.

这简直像圣诞老爸笑话对吧？但奥布莱恩将其赋予戴安娜，她完全是在用这个笑话打压对方：'别担心年轻人，我能搞定。你坐着操心放屁的马就行'。

Which is like, you know, that's like a Christmas dad joke, right? But it's kind of played by Patrick O'Brien into the mouth of Diana. She's using it absolutely as a put down to say, Don't worry young man. I've got this. You sit down over there and worry about the farting horse.

没错。他们要去的那场舞会办得很成功。有趣的是，之前威廉姆斯家还信誓旦旦说奥布雷和马图林家根本没有女性，全是老男人和水手。威廉姆斯夫人当时还说：'我真该戴着白手套去瞧瞧'。

Yeah. And this, you know, this ball that they're headed to, you know, it comes off really well. It's funny, I think earlier when, it was given to the Williams household on best authority that there was no, you know, no women at all in the household with Aubrey and Matron, that it was old men and sailors. And, you know, Mrs. Williams say, Well, I should like to take my white glove over there.

我无法想象。但他们去参加舞会，一切都干干净净，一切当然都井井有条。而且，舞会非常成功。他们有很多其他海军朋友也来了，这些人在战后某种程度上算是上岸定居了。这让我有点难受，因为在这过程中，斯蒂芬遭受了戴安娜的一次沉重打击，她列举了自己对理想男人特质的期望。斯蒂芬似乎正试图与她交谈。

I can't imagine it. But they go to the ball, everything is clean, Everything is ship shape, of course. And, it's a great success. They've got all these other naval friends that are in who've kind of landed on But shore after the war close it hurt me a bit because in the midst of that, Stephen suffers, you know, one of Diana's crushing blows as she kind of lists off the hopes that she has for her attributes of an ideal man. Stephen seems to be kind of engaging her in conversation.

她确实和斯蒂芬谈了很多，并说道，嗯，你知道你在追寻什么样的猎物吗？所有这些特质，没有一样符合斯蒂芬。我觉得他很快就记下了这一点。有趣的是，我们了解到更多戴安娜的背景故事。她是个寡妇，你知道，经历过一段艰难时光。

She's certainly engaged Steven in a lot of conversation and kind of saying, you know, well, you know, what's the beast that you're stalking? And all of them, all of them are not at all Stephen Matron. I think he scores that up quite quickly. And it's interesting, we get more of Diana's backstory. She's widowed, you know, has had a bit of a tough time to it.

她有点被困在这里，和她的表亲及姨妈在一起。但她就这样羞辱了斯蒂芬，似乎毫不在意。而他似乎没有什么办法来保护自己免受这种心碎。他说，你知道，我讨厌给人带来痛苦，而你却不是。这有点令人惊讶，你知道，也许预示着未来要发生的事情。

She's kind of left here stuck with her cousins and her aunt. But she just humiliates Stephen and seems to think nothing of it. And he seems to have very little at his disposal to protect himself from the heartbreak. He says, you know, I'm adverse to giving pain villas, which you are not. And it's kind of a little wow, you know, perhaps shape of things to come here.

是的，绝对如此。这就是她的性格特点。奥布莱恩巧妙地让我们一开始觉得她是个迷人又令人同情的角色。你知道，如果你在寻找一个坚强独立、有自己思想的女性角色，那她完全符合。我记得读到这里时想，嗯，这有点像是一个二十世纪末的女性被植入到了十九世纪的故事中。

Yeah, absolutely. Shape of her character. It's clever how, like, O'Brien set us up to see her as, you know, sort of an engaging and sympathetic character. You know, if you're looking for a strong independent female character who has, you know, kind of has her own mind, then she's absolutely it. I remember reading that thinking, yeah, this is kind of a, you know, a late twentieth century woman deposited in a way in the characters of a nineteenth century story.

但她不仅仅有独立、勇气和机智。她知道自已有能力伤害别人。而且我不知道她是控制不住自己，还是这就是她处世方式的一部分，但她发现如此轻易就能给斯蒂芬造成这些巨大的伤害，我猜我们也会看到她对别人这样做。

But she's not just kind of, you know, independence and courage and wit. She she knows she has the ability to wound. And and I don't know whether she can't stop herself, or whether it's just part of the way that she kind of kind of goes on her way through the world, but she's finds it so easy just to kind of inflict these great wounds on Steven, and I guess we're gonna see on other people as well.

是的。而且，你知道，我们现在在陆地上已经待了相当长一段时间了，这似乎是帕特里克·奥布莱恩的一贯风格：海上一切顺利，而一上岸事情就有点棘手了。伊恩，这本书也是这样吗？

Yeah. Well, and, you know, we've now been on land for a good while and it it seems to often be Patrick O'Brien's style to say things go well at sea, and and they get a little bit dicey on land. Is that holding up in this book as well, Ian?

是的，我想是的。有趣的是我也注意到了。不仅陆地上的事情会变糟，陆地上的派对也会出问题。

Yeah. I think so. It's funny I noticed as well. Not not only do things go badly on land. Things go badly at parties on land.

对吧？

Right?

我们知道在海上，

We know that at sea,

对吧？奥布莱恩喜欢描写宴会，喜欢列出菜单，喜欢谈论他们唱的歌和讲的笑话。但当他们上岸后，派对似乎总是笼罩着一种略微紧张、略带讽刺、略带被动攻击性的竞争氛围，人们竞相炫耀自己的观点，比如那些心胸狭隘的资产阶级人士对奴隶制或贫困等问题发表看法，然后我们的英雄们，尤其是斯蒂芬·马图林，总是试图通过拆台来打压这些人。在晚宴派对上总是充满了这种难以掩饰的敌意和竞争性，我不知道，我觉得我的很多晚宴派对可不是这样的。

right? O'Brien loves a meal and he loves to list off the menu and he loves to kind of talk about the songs that they sing and the jokes that they tell. But when they're ashore, parties seem to be kind of stricken by this slightly uptake uptight, slightly sarcastic, slightly passive aggressive kind of competition between people to kind of kind of flaunt their opinions in the case of kind of, you know, small minded bourgeois people who express opinions about, you know, slavery or poverty or whatever and then, the willingness of our heroes and in particular, Steven Macher into kind of try and put these people down by sabotaging them. There's all this kind of ill concealed hostility and kind of competitiveness at dinner parties, I don't know. I I don't think that happens at many of my dinner parties.

我不了解你的情况，迈克。

I don't know about yours, Mike.

我觉得如果这种事像在这里发生得这么频繁，我就不去参加了。没错。

I I think if it happened quite as often as it does here, I'd stop going to them. Right.

是的。完全同意。

Yeah. Absolutely.

不过有趣的是，有时候史蒂文和杰克配合得天衣无缝，我觉得被捉弄的人甚至都没意识到。

Although it it is interesting that sometimes and and Steven and Jack together do this so well that I think the people who are being had don't even realize it.

是啊。哦，我敢肯定。是的，我确定。有那么一次，对吧，在舞会上，史蒂文滔滔不绝地说着——不对。

Yeah. Oh, I'm sure. Yes. I'm sure. There's the time, isn't there, when, at the at the ball, Steven is talking away no.

是在伦敦昆妮的派对上。史蒂文一直和威廉姆斯夫人——苏菲的母亲聊天，她刚发现他在西班牙是个地主，这挺了不起的。她有点，哦，我没意识到你是有产阶层，然后说，告诉我关于地租的事。说说你的佃户情况。他就顺势演下去，说，哦是啊，地租，没错，我们有地租。

It's at the at at at Queenie's party in London. Steven's talking away to missus Williams, Sophie's mother, and she's just discovered that he's a landowner in Spain and this is kind of a big deal. She's kinda, oh, I didn't realize you're a man of property and you know, tell me about tell me about rack rent. Tell me about your tenant role. And he kind of plays a right along and says, oh yeah, the rack, yeah, we have the rack.

我们用它向佃户收租，发现啊，我们和他们谈得越多，他们付得就越多。对吧。她点头附和，说，哦，是的。非常非常明智的控制佃户的方法。

We we use it for extracting rent from tenants and we find that the, you know, the more we talk to them, the more they pay. Right. And she's nodding along going, oh, yes. Very, very sensible way of getting control of your tenants.

不。这这太——所以我觉得

No. It it's So I think

这是帕特里克·奥布莱恩通过史蒂文这个角色在开玩笑，对吧？

it's Patrick O'Brien having fun through the character of Steven, right?

是啊。是啊。在，你知道，有一个场景，莫莉·哈特和哈特船长的一些朋友想让他们儿子在杰克的船——杰克的舰上当见习船员。抱歉。哦，什么——哎呀。

Yeah. Yeah. In in, you know, there's a scene where, some friends of Molly Hart and Captain Hart would like to have their son become a midshipman on Jack's boat Jack's ship. Sorry. Oh, what a what oops.

一艘船，不是小艇，是一艘大船。他们在讨论，你知道，还有，我想这是回到《怒海争锋》里的情节，他们在谈论纪律的重要性就是纪律，以及，你知道，他们是如何发现这一点的？然后，你知道，他们问史蒂芬关于在海上当医生的事，他说，嗯，我发现猫油能解决问题，你知道，他们会把病人绑在猫身上鞭打，然后他们就能痊愈。杰克说，哦是的，你知道，他是个纪律非常严明的人。但事实是，他们完全不是这样的，但派对上每个人都在说，是的，是的，是的。

One ship, not a boat, it's a ship. And they're talking about, you know, there's also, I guess this is back in Master and Commander, but they're talking about how important discipline is discipline and, you know, how do they find that? And, you know, they asked Steven about, you know, being a physician at sea and he says, well, I find that the oil of cat answers, you know, that they would tie them to the cat and whip them and they'll get over their maladies. And Jack said, oh yes, know, he's a very firm discipline. And the fact of the matter is they're nothing at all like this, but everybody at the party is just saying, yes, yes, yes.

你知道，我们热爱纪律。

You know, we love discipline.

吉米。这就是，这就是史蒂芬和杰克在整个职业生涯中都会持续争论的伟大论点。你知道，纪律的界限在哪里？如果有人站在你这边，它又会带来什么破坏性影响？

Jimmy. And that's the, that's the great argument that, Stephen and, and Jack are gonna have all the way through their careers. You know, how far do you go with discipline and what damaging effect does it have if somebody takes your part?

是的，这很有趣，因为他们俩都非常，你知道，史蒂芬当然更甚，但即使是杰克自己，他的想法似乎也与时代相悖，他说，你知道，杰克相信一艘快乐的船，一艘有纪律的船，但是一艘快乐的船，而不是，你知道，一艘极其严酷和惩罚性的船，这一点我们在这本书中也看到了。

Yeah, and there, it's interesting because they are so much both of them, you know, Stephen certainly much further, but even Jack himself of a mind that seems contrary to the times that says, you know, Jack believes in a happy ship, a disciplined ship, but a happy ship and not, you know, an extremely harsh and punishing ship, which we saw, you know, we see play in in this book as well.

所以，我想提一下，我们遇到了几次情况恶化，我认为有一种普遍的恶化，然后是一系列个人的恶化，这真的加剧了这里的紧张气氛。是的。你一开始提到，你知道，索菲在上一本书的末尾捕获了卡卡菲戈号，杰克和史蒂芬资金充裕，他们有所有这些奖金进账。然后杰克得到了一个非常意外的消息，他的奖金代理人骗走了他所有的钱。那个奖金代理人，你知道，卷走了他所有的现金。

So, I I wanna pick up the fact that we we get a couple of turns for the worse, I think there's a sort of general turn for the worse and then a series of personal turns for the worse that really ratchet up the tension here. Yeah. You mentioned at the beginning that, you know, that they, Sophie, captured the Caca Fuego at the end of the previous book and Jack and Steven are in funds and they got all this prize money coming in. And Jack gets the really unexpected news that his prize agent has has defrauded him of all his money. The prize agent has, you know, absconded with all of his cash.

而杰克认为他合法捕获的卡卡菲戈号，那个判决在法庭上被推翻了。他实际上必须向国家归还他的奖金代理人代表他收取的11,000英镑，奖金代理人已经跑了。所以国家需要拿回它的11,000英镑，而奖金代理人已经逃到山里去了。所以他可能留下了11,000英镑的债务，身无分文，生活从他所说的‘提琴手的绿洲’——你知道，岸上的快乐日子——再次转向了真正、真正的不确定性。而且，你知道，令人惊讶的是，我们再次以这种非常实事求是的方式，整个故事在瞬间转折，突然间，史蒂芬和杰克不得不收拾行装离开。

And the cacafuego that Jack believed he had captured as a lawful prize, that judgment's been overturned in court. He actually has to hand back to the state the £11,000 that his prize agent had had taken on his behalf, the prize agent's gone. So the state needs its £11,000 back, and the prize agent's away in the hills. So he's left potentially, you know, £11,000 in debt and penniless, and life pivots from Fiddlers Green, as he would say, you know, happy days on shore, to real, real uncertainty again. And, you know, it's amazing how we just in a again, in this very matter of fact way, the whole story turns in an instant, and all of a sudden, Steven and Jack have got to up sticks.

他们必须放弃与威廉姆斯姐妹和戴安娜·维利尔斯在一起的社交生活，他们必须放弃梅尔伯里小屋，他们必须放弃马匹和派对，他们必须离开那里。

They've got to abandon the social life that they've got with the Williams girls and with Diana Villiers, and they've got to abandon Melbury Lodge, and they've got to abandon the horses and the parties, and they've got to get out of there.

是的，这真的很可悲。而且，看着这种或许更有点简·奥斯汀风格的方式，你知道，他从炙手可热变得完全不受欢迎，他知道自己不受欢迎，从他抿嘴的方式就能看出，你知道，他完全被威廉姆斯夫人和同时的一些社交圈出卖了。你知道，他曾经是幸运的杰克·奥布里，海军的谈资，街坊的话题。而现在，史蒂芬，这很有趣，警告他说，你知道，好吧，杰克，不要对任何人透露一个字，我求你了。

Yeah, it really is sad. And and to watch this kind of perhaps a little bit more in that Jane Austen fashion that, you know, he goes from the plum to completely undesirable, knew he was undesirable, the way he holds his mouth, you know, he's just completely sold out by, by Mrs. Williams and, and by some of society at the same time. You know, he was lucky Jack Aubrey, the talk of the Navy, talk of the neighborhood. And now, Stephen, it was fascinating, warns him, says, you know, all right, Jack, don't say a word of this to anyone, I beg you.

而杰克，史蒂芬说，你知道，他真的不懂女人，没有姐妹，母亲在他年轻时就去世了，就把这件事告诉了索菲。从那里开始，砰，威廉姆斯夫人用她诡计多端的手段从索菲那里套出了这个消息。而杰克，你知道，他不仅因为这个消息而陷入困境，而且肯定随着这个消息广泛传播而更加窘迫。

And Jack, who Stephen says, you know, really just doesn't understand about women, didn't have a sister, mother died when he was young, just confides this to Sophie. And from there, boom, missus Williams kind of uses her conniving means to get this out of Sophie. And Jack is just, you know, he's not only on his leashore with the news, but certainly on his leashore as this news gets spread widely.

现在，我认为这次财务灾难中还有一丝安慰，那就是这将使他们远离戴安娜·维拉斯附近。而且我认为我们已经看到迹象，除了史蒂芬与戴安娜·维拉斯这种若即若离的关系外，杰克的浪漫目光并没有完全落在索菲身上，他仍然对戴安娜·维利尔斯很有好感，而这开始成为障碍。你知道，当我看到他们开始以小事的方式对彼此撒谎或有点回避时，我觉得真的很可悲。是的。关于他们与戴安娜·维利尔斯的联系。但不得不因债务逃离国家至少让他们俩重新行动起来。

Now I I think there's still there's one crumb of comfort from this financial disaster, which is that that is then gonna take them away from being near Diana Villas. And I think we were already seeing signs that besides Steven having this kind of on again, off again relationship with Diana Villas, Jack's romantic eye has not entirely settled on Sophie, and he still has quite a fancy for Diana Villiers, and that was beginning to get in the way. I was, you know, I found it really sad when you can kind of see the small scale ways in which they're starting to lie to each other or be a bit evasive Yeah. About their connections with Diana Villiers. But having to flee the country in debt at least puts them both back into action.

而且，你知道，当史蒂文·马丁看到他的朋友杰克因奖金这个坏消息而如此沮丧时，他显然愿意退一步，成为一个真正支持、亲近且忠诚的朋友。

And, you know, Steven Matrin is clearly willing to step back into being a really supportive and close and loyal friend when he sees his his his, his friend Jack sent so low by this this bad news about the about the prize money.

但说实话，史蒂文已经审视了他、杰克和戴安娜之间这个无法调和的三角关系。我认为史蒂文考虑过退出这个局面，只是想说，好吧，我要离开这个舞台。然而，看到杰克陷入困境，他又一次跳出来拯救局面，就像史蒂文一贯的做法。天啊，我为此非常欣赏他。

But really, Steven has kind of looked at this, irreconcilable, triangle between he and Jack and Diana. And I think Steven, you know, thinks about taking himself out of the picture just to say, okay, you know, I'm gonna just leave the field. And, seeing though that Jack is in trouble, he jumps in to save the day once again as Steven has a tendency to do. And I god. I love him for it.

所以场景有所变化，他们因债务被迫逃离国家。好消息是史蒂文在西班牙和加泰罗尼亚有房产，所以他们正途经法国南部前往西班牙。目前仍处于和平时期。首先，我真的很喜欢他们重新遇见克里斯蒂·帕利尔船长的部分。他们顺道拜访了这位曾俘虏他们但待他们极好的船长，正在享用一顿非常愉快的法国大餐，还有一些有趣的法国对话片段。

So we have a bit of a change of scene as they've had to flee the country in debt. Good news is Steven has property in in Spain and Catalonia, so they're on the way via the South Of France to go visit Spain. Still in peacetime as we are for the moment. And first of all, I I really enjoyed the fact that they meet back up with captain Christie Palier. They kind call in on this captain who captured them but treated them so well, and they're having this really enjoyable French meal, and we have a little bit of kinda funny French dialogue.

但即使是这顿饭，就像奥布莱恩最喜欢的场景设置之一，也被战争宣告爆发的消息打乱了。亚眠的和平将在第二天瓦解。英国和法国之间即将爆发战争。史蒂文和杰克不得不再次逃亡，这次是为了避免成为战俘而被囚禁。

But even this meal, like, again, one of O'Brien's favorite set pieces, is upended by the news that war has been declared. And the piece of Amiens is the following day is gonna break down. War is gonna break out between England and France. And once again, Steven and Jack have to flee, this time fleeing from potential imprisonment as as prisoners of war.

是的，而且很有趣的是，在不剧透的前提下，我认为我们对史蒂文有了更多了解。首先，关于他在西班牙的房产，表明他是一位有产业的绅士。以及我们如何得知战争即将来临，史蒂文在做什么——似乎总是杰克在主导，但我们越来越多地看到史蒂文对局势了解很多，有时甚至超过杰克，并且有他自己的……我甚至不知如何描述，当杰克第一次见到克里斯蒂·帕利尔时，我认为史蒂文不在场，而克里斯蒂·帕利尔报告了一个一直在监视他们港口和船只的间谍的描述。杰克觉得非常好笑，因为这个描述与史蒂文完全吻合。

Yeah. And we it's funny without trying to do any spoilers here, I think we're learning a lot more about Steven. Much more about, first of all, to his property in Spain, that he's a property gentleman. And this whole idea about how we find out that war is in the offering, what Stephen's doing, you know, it always seems like Jack's kind of leading the way, but we're seeing more and more that Stephen knows a lot about what's going on, sometimes more than Jack, and has his own there's a I don't even know how to get into it here that, you know, one of the things as Jack first sees Christy Perlier, I think Stephen is not with him and Christy Perlier reports this description of a spy who's been overlooking their harbor and ships and stuff like that. And, you know, Jack thinks it's just hilarious that this description matches Stephen.

他说：‘哦不，那是史蒂文在看鸟。你开玩笑吧。’所以他能做到

He says, Oh no, that's Stephen looking at birds. You've got to be kidding me. So I- He's able to do it

如此真诚，以至于法国人都会说：‘是啊，是啊，好吧。听起来挺合理的。他只是个博物学家。好吧。’

so sincerely that the French people are going, Yeah, yeah, okay. Yeah, that sounds plausible. He's just a naturalist. Okay.

绝对是的。我还很喜欢克里斯蒂·波瓦里耶和杰克之间非常享受彼此的陪伴，以及他们是多么高尚、友善和友好。你知道，克里斯蒂·波瓦里耶说过，他很喜欢你们作为我的俘虏，因为当我曾是英国人的俘虏时，我受到了非常好的待遇，我想回报这份礼节。他在巴斯有表亲，杰克还去拜访过他们。当你看着当今的党派之争和世界各地发生的事情，你会说，天啊，这里是两个即将交战的人，正在进行坦率的对话，谈论他们的忠诚、对各自政府的喜好和不满等等，但他们彼此之间却有如此多的欣赏和钦佩。

Absolutely. And one of the things I also love with, Christy Poirier and Jack is how much they enjoy each other's company and how honorable and kind and friendly they are. You know, Christy Poirier has said, you know, loved having you as my prisoner because when I was, you know, the English, an English prisoner, I was treated so well and I wanted to return the courtesy. You know, he has cousins in Bath and Jack has been to visit the cousins. And, as you kind of look at today's partisanship and what's going on all around the world and you say, Oh my gosh, here are two guys who were at war, who were about to be at war and are having candid conversations about their allegiances, their likes and dislikes about their respective governments and stuff like that, but have so much that they appreciate and admire in one another.

我觉得，哇，这在任何时候都令人感到温暖。而且我认为这完全符合那个时代，我们今天也可以多一点这样的情谊。

I thought, wow, this is heartwarming at any time. And certainly I feel completely true to that time and we could use a little bit more of it today.

是的，我也这么认为。我也很喜欢他提出了一个相当细微的观点，即对一种文化或某种民族身份的忠诚与对一个政权的忠诚之间的区别。而且，你知道，马图林在后面的书中会多次说，他热爱法国人民，他认为自己有一部分法国血统。

Yeah, I think we could. I think we could. And I I love as well the fact that there's he's making quite a nuanced point about the difference between loyalty, to a culture or to a to a sort of a national identity versus loyalty to a regime. And, you know, Matarin's gonna say this many, many times in later books that he loves the French people. He counts himself as part French.

他说话的方式足以让他冒充法国人。他认为巴黎是世界上最伟大的城市，但他无法容忍波拿巴统治下的法国政府行事方式。这就是他反对的地方，也是他参与这场冲突的动机。

He can pass for a Frenchman in the way that he speaks. He thinks Paris is the greatest city in the world, but he can't abide the way that the French state under Bonaparte goes about his business. And that's what he has an issue with, that's his motivation to play his part in the conflict.

是的。说得好。

Yeah. Well put.

没错。那么继续讲述他们的冒险经历——在离开与克里斯蒂·帕利耶共进的晚餐后，他们可能再次面临追捕和监禁的威胁，此刻正穿越法国南部。我不知道奥布莱恩是从哪里得到这个主意的，想必是通过某个渠道，因为他许多绝妙点子都来源于此。奥布里穿着熊皮，竟能神奇地让所有人都相信这头熊是真的，而斯蒂芬则扮演驯熊人，从一个马戏团到另一个马戏团，从一个集市到另一个集市，通过让人们观看熊跳舞来赚取铜板。要知道，一位英国海军上校穿着熊皮跳舞本身就是喜剧黄金，而他演得实在精彩绝伦。

Right. So to to carry on talking about their escapades now that they've moved on from dinner with Christie Palier and they're potentially under threat of pursuit and imprisonment again, they're passing along Southern France. And I've no idea where O'Brien got the idea from, presumably from a source because that's where he got so many of his great ideas. Aubrey is dressed in a bearskin and somehow manages to convince the world that the bear is a bear, and Stephen is the bear keeper kind of traveling from circus to circus and from marketplace to marketplace, gathering groats from people in return for seeing the bear dance. And you know, the idea of an English naval captain in a bearskin dancing is is is comic gold and he plays it really, really well.

更可笑的是，有个特别愚蠢的宪兵坚持要看熊跳舞——毕竟，被牵着走的熊为什么不跳舞呢？哦，好吧。他甚至接受了那个借口，说这头母熊因某种雌性疾患此刻无法表演太多舞步。他说'好吧，有道理，让我瞧瞧'，然后杰克就跳了几步角笛舞，所有人都心满意足地相信这真是头熊。我们想必是来到了从没见过熊的偏远地区，这里的人教育程度不高，斯蒂芬和杰克就这样靠着这身熊装蒙混过关。

And you know, there's a really stupid gendarme who insists on seeing the bear dance because of course, why why would a led bear not be dancing? Oh, okay. He even accepts the the excuse that there's there's a there's a there's a lady's malady that stops this particular female bear from performing very many steps at this particular moment. He goes yeah okay fair enough so let me see and Jack dances a few steps of a hornpipe and everybody's happy with the idea that this bear is really a bear And we must be in the backwater of people who have never seen a bear before and are relatively uneducated, and Steven and Jack are able somehow to gluff their way through in this bear costume.

重读时我完全忘了这段情节。真的吗？这简直让我震惊，因为我想——谁想得到？奥布莱恩特别擅长从他人视角叙事，而且是些极其独特的视角。突然间我们就看到这个人和他的熊，过了好久才恍然大悟这人和熊究竟是谁。

Well, to be on the reread, I had completely forgotten about this. I think Oh, And really? Oh, it just blew me away because I thought, Who? O'Brien has this great way of viewing it from other people's point of view and these wildly unique points of view. And all of a sudden we have this guy and his bear and we go a long way before we find out who the guy and his bear are.

我当时挠着头想：这到底在讲什么？这就是人到一定年纪后重读旧书的妙处——反复阅读却总能获得全新惊喜。写得实在精妙绝伦。直到最后才惊呼：天啊，原来是杰克和斯蒂芬！

I'm scratching my head going, Where is this going? This is when you get to be a certain age. Get to reread You books over and over again and be completely surprised by them. The, you know, it's just so incredibly well done. And then it's like, Oh my gosh, it's Jack and Steven.

所以不仅如你所说杰克和斯蒂芬成功蒙混过关，在我看来帕特里克·奥布莱恩也把这段情节处理得极为出色。是的，

So not only to your point did Jack and Steven somehow pull it off, but Patrick O'Brien, in my mind, pulled it off quite well as well. Yeah,

完全同意。他还巧妙运用了熊装的设定。也许你潜意识里会想：天啊，法国西南部的夏天穿着熊皮，那得多难受。但实际上我们发现，熊皮对杰克而言简直是种折磨。

absolutely. And he also uses the device of the bear. Maybe part of you in the back of your mind is thinking, Yeah, geez. You know, summer in in in Southwestern France in a bearskin, that's gonna be uncomfortable. But actually, we realized that bearskin is a torture for Jack.

他整天都得待在这件令人作呕、散发恶臭、爬满寄生虫、油腻肮脏的熊皮戏服里，无法脱身，还得顶着风雨跋涉山岭溪流。斯蒂芬像照顾病人般细心呵护他，而这件熊装在另一个层面上成了折磨杰克的刑具，使他最终通往西班牙自由的每一步都充满痛苦，行程缓慢而煎熬。

He has to spend all day in this revolting, smelly, you know, parasite infested, filthy, greasy bear costume and he can't get out of it and he's got to travel through, you know, weather and up hills and streams. Steven's looking after him really sort of tenderly and the the bear costume in another context is just like this thing that tortures Jack and makes his final journey into the freedom of Spain just so agonizing and so slow, every step is pain for him.

是的。斯蒂芬在《指挥大师》里曾劝诫他，像他这样体型的人在突袭行动中不宜在沙滩上跑太快。如今他翻山越岭跋涉数百英里，体重急剧下降——典型的帕特里克·奥布莱恩式写法。对杰克造成的影响我们并未立即知晓，而是像剥洋葱般通过不同视角和对话逐渐揭示：当斯蒂芬带着杰克逃离英国所有债权人，穿越战火纷飞的西班牙，最终到达加泰罗尼亚相对安全的地带时，这一切的后果才层层显现。

Yes. Stephen counseled him in Mastering Commander not to run too fast on the beach in a cutting out expedition because of men of his size. He's just losing incredible amounts of weight, journeying hundreds of miles up mountainsides true Patrick O'Brien way, the impact on Jack, you know, we don't learn for some time. You know, it continues to get peeled away like an onion in different points of view, in different conversations to what actually happens as Stephen has whisked Jack away from all the creditors of England and to through, war torn now Spain and into the relative safety of Catalonia with Stephen.

而对斯蒂芬来说，这里就是家。我们很少看到或听到他与当地人的互动，也从未听闻任何关于他家人的消息。但显然，这段旅程对史蒂文而言是通往安全的归途。

And for Stephen, this is home. We don't ever see or hear very much of him relating to the people in the in the area. We don't hear of any of it. No members of his household. But clearly, this is a journey to safety for Steven.

但对杰克来说，这是他从未有过的经历——第一次来到西班牙，第一次穿越法西边境的森林，更是第一次穿上熊玩偶服。他正将自己的安危全然托付给朋友史蒂文。

But for Jack, this is like, he's never been to Spain before. He's never been through a forest on the Franco Spanish Spanish border before. He's certainly never been in a bear costume before. So he's placing a lot of himself in the hands of his friend Steven.

确实如此。他正透过熊玩偶服的颈部色彩，以全新的视角审视史蒂文，更意识到：等等，史蒂文早已掌控全局。他周密规划路线，机智地搜集情报判断安危，精准决策行动。原本就对史蒂文怀有崇高敬意的杰克，此刻对他的钦佩更是达到了新高度。

Absolutely. And he's seeing Steven, you know, through new eyes, literally through the bear costume, through the, you know, through the color around the neck of the bear costume, but he's also seeing him in new eyes to say, wait a minute, Steven's got this all under control. Steven is planning this out. Steven is being really ingenious in the way he's getting them through and how he's gathering intelligence about what to do and and the way Steven can make sense of whether it's safe or not safe and why they can or can't do certain things. I think Jax, who has already had phenomenal esteem for Steven, you know, that esteem has risen even higher and he really sees him in new ways in addition to the great ways that he's seen him in the past.

总之，我认为这是关键转折点，是第一幕的终章。杰克与史蒂文深陷复杂的男女关系，友谊之舟亦在风浪中颠簸。杰克的事业濒临崩溃——他是否会为躲避债主而接受海军部派遣的低阶舰艇职务？

Anyway, so I think this is a key moment. This is an end of the first act. We've got Jack and Steven really mired in complex relationships with women and also with their friendship on an uneven keel. We've got Jack careers on the rocks. Is he going to go a really undesirable kind of low rated ship from the admiralty just for the sake of getting to sea to avoid his debtors?

马图林究竟在谋划什么？那些暗流涌动的背景势力将如何发展？《舰长》中仍有大量值得探讨的内容，或许这正是我们下期要继续的话题。你觉得呢？

What's really going on with Matcher in and what are these other background interests that he's going to pursue? I think there's a lot for us still to talk about in post captain. I think maybe that's where we'll pick it up next time. What do you say?

噢，这主意太棒了！整场战争正铺陈在我们面前，而杰克将扮演什么角色？毕竟本书开场时还处于和平时期呢。

Oh, I think it's a great idea. And there's a whole war in front of us. And what part is Jack gonna play in? Because we haven't gotten that. This book is broken out with peace.

天啊！以和平时期开篇的海军历史小说该怎么展开？

Oh my gosh. How can we have a historical naval fiction broken out in peace?

说得好。我们将在第四期继续探讨，衷心希望您喜欢第三期内容。若欣赏本播客，请订阅并给予评价，我们在iTunes平台同步更新。

Absolutely. So we're gonna pick this up in episode four. We really hope that you've enjoyed episode three. If you're enjoying this podcast, please subscribe, review us. We're on iTunes.

欢迎分享推荐给朋友，也期待您通过facebook.com/loverswhole页面与我们互动提问。

Share. Tell your friends. Get in touch with us as well. We got the Facebook page, facebook.com/loverswhole. Ask questions.

请告诉我们您希望听到哪些内容的讨论，我们将继续漫步于《舰长》的后续篇章，并深入奥伯瑞-马图林系列的其他作品。

Tell us what you want to hear us talking about as we meander through the rest of post captain and as we move on into the rest of the Warbury matcher in canon.

在我们非常感激地收集大家反馈的同时，我们也在考虑邀请嘉宾参与节目。我们很想知道，您希望在这个播客中听到谁作为嘉宾。如果您正在收听并有所想法，有观点想要分享，您是否愿意作为嘉宾加入我们？请告诉我们。

And while you're giving us that feedback, which we greatly appreciate, you know, we're thinking about inviting guests on the show. We'd love to know who would you like to hear as a guest on this podcast. If you're listening to this and you have something to say, you've got a perspective to bring here, Would you like to join us as a guest? Please let us know.

我们可不挑剔，会为大家腾出空间的。

We're not proud. We'll make space.

啊，14英寸的吊床空间，这就是我们为每位嘉宾准备的全部了。

Ah, 14 inches of hammock space, all we need for every guest.

还有全部的朗姆酒。

And a total rum.

全部的朗姆酒。

A total rum.

迈克，我觉得这期节目就到这吧。下次怎么样？也许可以多聊点帕特里克·奥布莱恩。

Mike, I think that's our show. What do you say to next time? Maybe a little bit more Patrick O'Brien.

哦，我全心全意赞同。刚才很有趣。

Oh, with all my heart. That was fun.