第4集 - 波斯特船长（下）；凯伦·米利亚德

欢迎回到《情人洞》，帕特里克·奥布莱恩的播客节目。我是伊恩。我是迈克。我们将带您更深入地探索小说《舰长》的世界。迈克，在上期播客中，我们发现史蒂芬和杰克仿佛置身于一个全新的世界，对吧？

Welcome back to The Lover's Hole, a Patrick O'Brien podcast. I'm Ian. And I'm Mike. And you're with us as we go deeper into the world of the novel post captain. Mike, in our previous podcast, we were finding Steven and Jack in rather a new world, weren't we?

确实如此。他们被抛到了陆地上。杰克现在没有船。他正在纠结接下来要做什么。而且我们正处于和平时期，所以前景并不乐观。

We really were. They're thrown up on land here. Jack does not have a ship. Jack's trying to decide what what he's gonna do here. And we are in a time of peace, so not not great prospects.

杰克的财务状况也发生了逆转，这连带影响了他的感情生活前景。所以处境确实有些艰难。

Jack has also had his prospects financially turned around, which has turned around his love life prospects as well. So a bit of a tough situation.

完全正确。我们还讨论过他们如何进入这个充满女性陪伴的新社交圈，以及如何适应上流社会生活。他们正在筹办舞会呢。没错。正是如此。

Absolutely. And we've talked about how they're in this new social world as well of female company, and they're also in the world of, you know, living in society. They're hosting a ball. That's right. That's right.

没错，弗雷德。谁能想到呢？

Right, Fred. Who would've who would've thunk it?

所以这让我们开始思考，不是吗？也许我们有机会首次邀请一位《Lovers Hole》的嘉宾来参加播客。

So that got us thinking, didn't it? Maybe we have an opportunity to bring our first ever Lovers Hole guest into the podcast.

是的。因为我们常说，这不仅关乎海洋，也关乎陆地。有角色塑造，有关于他们生活时代和方式的丰富内容。我认为我们有必要找一位在这方面有些专长的人。

Yeah. Because I think one of the things that we've said so often is that this is not just on sea, it's also on land. There's characterizations. There's richness about times in which they lived and how they lived. And I think it behooved us to get somebody who's got a little expertise in that area.

确实如此。在本期节目稍后部分，我们将听到卡拉·米利亚德的分享，她深谙当时社交场合、派对舞会、行为举止及礼仪规范。我们将从她的经历和工作中汲取知识，对此我们充满期待。

Absolutely. So later on in this episode, we're gonna be hearing from Cara Milliard, who knows all about the social settings and parties and dances and behavior and etiquette of the time. And we're going to learn a little bit from her experience and the work that she does. So we're really looking forward to

没错，正是如此。

that. Absolutely.

简单推进下剧情——史蒂文和杰克最终搭上了一艘东印度公司的货船"印度人号"返乡，此时正值战争时期。他们希望能在所有肥差被瓜分完毕前，为杰克争取到指挥权。这让我们得以目睹杰克和史蒂文以乘客身份体验船上生活，同时也能看到杰克非指挥官身份下的行动表现。作为历史爱好者，我要指出这艘1802年载他们回英国的船名为"纳尔逊勋爵号"。起初我甚至怀疑帕特里克·奥布莱恩的设定——1802年就有以刚获爵位的尼罗河战役英雄纳尔逊命名的商船？

To fast forward the story a little bit, Steven and Jack end up hitching a ride on an Indiaman, an East India company cargo ship to get themselves back home again, this time in time of war, hoping that they can get back to snap up a command for Jack, you know, before all of all the plum jobs have been taken, now that war's broken out again with And this gives us the chance to see, you know, Jack and Steven seeing life aboard ship, but as passengers on somebody else's ship. And we're also gonna get to see some action with Jack not in command, but just kind of being part of the part of the ship's establishment. I'm I'm gonna do my history nerd thing here and say that that the the name of the Indiamen that was taking them back to England in presumably eighteen o two was the Lord Nelson. And I looked at this and I thought for one brief second, I doubted Patrick O'Brien. I thought in eighteen o two, surely that's very early for there to be an Indian named after Nelson with with the handle Lord behind it.

但事实令人惊叹：确实存在这样一艘东印度公司商船"纳尔逊勋爵号"，它于1799年下水——正是纳尔逊因尼罗河之战功勋获封爵位的年份。典型的奥布莱恩式细节处理！

But guess what? There really was an East India Company ship called the Lord Nelson. She was launched in 1799, which is the year in which Nelson was raised to the peerage for his part in the battle of the Nile. And guess what? Just classic O'Brien.

这段"纳尔逊勋爵号"遭遇法国私掠船并经历波折的情节（尽管没有两位虚构乘客）确有其事。法国私掠船"贝隆号"真实存在，"纳尔逊勋爵号"也是史实船只。再次为帕特里克·奥布莱恩喝彩——他将真实历史片段完美嵌入了我们的虚构故事。

This action, albeit without two fictional passengers on board, this action wherein the Lord Nelson encounters a French privateer and goes through various kind of trials and tribulations, that action really happened. The Belon, the French privateer, was a real privateer. The Lord Nelson was a real ship. So, again, fantastic job to Patrick Patrick O'Brien for taking, a real and interesting bit of history and plonking it very credibly in the middle of our fictional story.

难以想象奥布莱恩为每个细节所做的考据工作，他的精细程度简直...

I can't imagine the amount of research that O'Brien did on every one of these, because his his detail is And just

当然，除了皇家海军出身的两位乘客杰克·奥布里和斯蒂芬·马图林，这艘"纳尔逊勋爵号"货船还载有两位年龄不明的年轻女士——拉姆姐妹。这对被描述为相貌平平、体态丰腴的双胞胎，在宾客用餐时提供了些滑稽调剂，直到战斗爆发。

of course, besides having two passengers figures from the Royal Navy, Jack Aubrey and Stephen Matron, this cargo ship, the Lord Nelson, has two, young ladies of an uncertain age, two missus, two maids. I'm guessing they must have been kinda teenagers. The the missus Lam, these twins who are painted somehow as, you know, not not being the most handsome women in the world and not being the most svelte of figure. And they're kind of an amusing distraction as the as the as the guests are having their dinner. But action takes place.

贝隆号试图夺取纳尔逊勋爵号，而这两位女士——兰姆夫人，正处于激战的核心。

The Belon tries to take the Lord Nelson and these two ladies, the Mrs. Lamb, are in the thick of the action.

确实如此，令人惊叹的是这艘船正如你所说，本质上只是商船。它被设计得有点像战列舰，配备了些重炮，但人手实在不足，远不及军舰的配置。书中还有一幕此刻让我深有共鸣——史蒂芬发现西班牙流感已在船上蔓延，很可能席卷那些印度籍船员（他们此前作战英勇，我们早有耳闻），现在却病倒了。于是其他人不得不接替战斗岗位。

They are, which is kind of amazing that you've got this ship which is really, as you say, it's a merchantman. It's designed to look a little bit like a ship of the line. It carries some heavy artillery there but not really enough people, certainly not like a man of war to man this thing. And we also have this moment in this book which just really resonated for me now where Stephen discovers that the Spanish flu is on board and probably is gonna sweep through that some of the India locals who are crewing the ship, who've also been great at fighting, we've heard before, are down sick. And so people have to take over and fight.

杰克自然担起重任。战斗中某个时刻，当印度船员无力搬运炮弹、火药和填弹材料时，这个笨手笨脚的年轻小伙出现了。杰克毫不留情地训斥了这个毛头小子，在枪炮轰鸣中吼叫着——

So Jack certainly does that. At one point in the battle, this young lad kind of shows up when some of the Indemen crew can no longer bring shot and bring gunpowder and the wads, the things that they need. And Jack just dresses down this one young lad who kind of is a bit inept, shouts things-

用单音节词骂人。

In words of one syllable.

没错。这绝非适合战场喧嚣的对话，更不是体面英国青年男女该有的言辞。后来受伤恍惚的杰克被两位女扮男装的姑娘严厉质问，她们谴责他对露西喊出了'生平听过最骇人的粗话'。

Exactly. Not it's conversation that certainly is right for the din of battle. It's not right for proper young English men and women to be conversing back and forth with. And so later, Jack who gets sort of really taken out during this battle and can't remember some of it, is confronted by the young ladies who, you know, are taking him to task for all the most dreadful things that he shouted to Lucy. The most dreadful things they had ever heard in their life.

知道吗？他竟敢辱骂我妹妹！'噢，奥布里船长，真可耻！'场面滑稽极了。早前史蒂芬已向杰克透露：两位女士伪装成男性登船，但对伪装效果颇为不满——尽管杰克初见她们时就已忧心忡忡。

You know, swore at my sister. Oh, Captain Aubrey, fie. It was hilarious. And having been told already by Stephen Matron, you know, Jack was concerned about the ladies before he saw them. Stephen confides to him that the two women are aboard but disguised as men and are a little bit unhappy with how well the deception has been going.

此刻她们终于卸下伪装，向奥布里船长控诉：'你刚才对我妹妹说的那些话简直恶劣至极！'

So here they are finally throwing off their disguise by commenting to captain Aubrey about these just terrible things that they said to my sister here.

我还特别喜欢私掠船船长阿兹玛的部分，他有些法式英语的对话。我们上次讨论过奥布莱恩如何表现苏格兰和爱尔兰口音，现在又看到法语人士说英语时略带误译的效果——纳泽米斯船长说'我让他们带上长袍以便呈现神圣形态'（我加了点口音）。

I also love how captain Azimah, the captain of the privateer, he gets a little bit of Fringlish dialogue. And and and again, we we talked last time about the the way that O'Brien rendered Scottish and Irish dialogue. Now we've got slightly mistranslated French turning up in the mouths of a French person trying to speak English and Captain Nazemis says I have asked them to carry robes so they can assume the form divine. I'm I'm adding the accent. Right.

你能感受到这位私掠船船长彬彬有礼的举动：'我让他们重新穿上礼服'。克里斯蒂·帕利耶也出现过类似情况，当杰克和史蒂芬共进晚餐时那句'我看上去如何？够光鲜吗？'，这大概是对某个合理法语词的蹩脚翻译。

And you can kind of really imagine this is a very gentle, courteous act by this privateer saying, I have asked them to wear their dresses again. We got a little bit of the same thing from Christy Palier about when when Jack and Steven were having dinner. You know, how do I look? Are you looking pimping? Which is presumably just a bad translation of a perfectly reasonable French word.

没错。帕特里克·奥布莱恩又在玩味法语人士说英语时的思维过程，那些翻译出来的怪异效果让他乐在其中。

Right. And again, Patrick O'Brien's having fun with the fact that he knows what goes on in the brains of Francophones when they try and speak English and just how bizarre some of the translations sound when they come out.

我们获得了一个不同的视角

We get a different point of

关于这场'纳尔逊勋爵号'与'贝隆号'的战斗。史蒂芬如常在医务室为伤员提供外科援助，杰克则接管了一组炮位——这让他重回海军候补生或中尉的岗位。我们意识到，对不担任指挥的他而言，战斗其实是件轻松的事：无需决策，不必谋划。

view for this for this battle, the battle between the Lord Nelson and the Belon. Stevens in his usual place in the in the cockpit offering surgical help to people who've been wounded. Jack takes over a division of guns. So, he's going back in his career to the job that a a midshipman or a lieutenant would have had in the navy and we get this idea that actually for him, battle is actually quite an easy thing when you're not in command. He doesn't have to do any of the decision making, any of the strategy.

他只需关注自己负责的四五门舰炮，不必担忧航向等任何其他问题。这种专注反而让他感到解脱——他精通如何协助商船船员装填、操作和瞄准火炮，整场战斗对他而言就像一种释放。

He doesn't have to worry about which way the ship's gonna go next or anything other than the four or five guns that are in his battery and he can just focus on one small thing. And that's almost a liberating thing for him. He absolutely knows what he's doing. He absolutely knows how to help these merchantmen load and serve and point their guns. And it's almost like this whole action is a kind of a release for him.

他终于能全心投入自己最擅长的战斗。

He can just get on and fight, which is what he knows how to do.

是的。文章写得非常好，观点也很吸引人。因为杰克知道有些艰难的决定需要做出，但他认为那些并非他该做的决定。那么哪些才是他该做的呢？他在自己职责范围内表现得极为出色，但正如你所言，他显然对不必处理其他事务感到相当庆幸。

Yeah. It was really well written and a fascinating point of view. Because Jack knows that there's some really tough decisions to be made and is thinking that those are not ones that are mine to make. So what are the ones that are mine to make? And does a heck of a job on the ones that are his to make, but is quite relieved, I think, to your point, not to have to do those others.

没错，这很巧妙。想到奥布莱恩，如果每次战斗场面都让奥布里完美洞察战术形势、押对赌注、领导士兵、次次成为战争英雄，那会变得非常乏味且令人难以信服。所以他让奥布里在这场战役中只扮演次要角色，同时从他的视角提供细节。在不剧透的前提下，这为本书后续可能出现的舰船对战埋下伏笔——届时我们将看到奥布里全程指挥、施展全部战术才能的场景。但我们知道那可能要等到后面。

No that's right. It's it's smart I think of O'Brien you know if if every action scene had Aubrey perceiving the tactical situation perfectly and taking the right gamble and leading the men and being the war hero every single time, it would get really dull and we wouldn't believe it. So he's given Aubrey the chance to just play a a minor part in this battle and also to give us some detail from his point of view. And I don't know, with without too many spoilers in mind, it sets up the possibility that later in this same book, we will get to see some ship on ship action where Aubrey gets to do the whole the whole in command thing and to use all of his tactical skill. But we know that that might come later.

对。现在杰克、史蒂文和兰姆夫人在这艘印度商船上，杰克早先就推测他们前往的区域将难以抵达，因为英国人在那里严密巡逻。果然就在快到达时，又发生了一场战斗——这场战斗再次展现了帕特里克·奥布莱恩独特的视角：所有囚犯必须下楼，他们通过听到的声音来描述战斗过程。

Right. So we have Jack and Steven and and the missus Lambs, you know, on this Indiamen, and Jack has posited earlier on that, you know, that the way they're headed for is going to be a tough place to get to because it's heavily patrolled by the English. And lo and behold, they're almost there and there's one more action, an action once again with a unique Patrick O'Brien point of view where all the prisoners have to go downstairs and they're kind of describing the battle from what they hear.

是啊，通过战斗传来的撞击声和爆炸声。

Yeah, from the thuds and bangs of the action.

没错，这点也让我觉得非常有意思。最终剧情推进到史蒂文和杰克再次获准返回英格兰，事实上他们也这么做了。杰克以最快速度赶回总部查看是否有可用的船只——当然并没有。此时战争初期阶段已过去很久了。

Yeah, which was fascinating to me as well. And ultimately, we move forward to, once again, Steven and Jack are free to return to England, and in fact, they do. Jack makes it as quickly as possible back to headquarters to, see whether there's anything available, which, of course, there's not. We're way late in in the beginning of this war now.

虽然好消息是现在的海军大臣梅尔维尔勋爵比书开头那位热衷打猎的前任更通情达理。这可能是件好事，但如你所说，他目前仍未能为杰克找到可指挥的舰船。

And Although although the good news is there's there's a more sympathetic first lord than the one first went hunting at the beginning of the book. We've got Lord Melville in charge. That's probably a good thing, but like you say, he's still he's still come up dry in terms of looking for a ship right now.

确实。真希望能给奥布里安排个好差事。我猜是执政党发生了更迭，所以他受到了热情接待，但似乎没什么实质性安排。不过他们倒是有机会去参加一场贵妇人们的聚会。

Right. Would love to have provided a plum to Aubrey. I I take it there's been a change in the dominant political party. And so he gets a warm reception, but there doesn't seem to be anything much for him. And they've got this opportunity to go to a gathering of queenies.

记得我们在《怒海争锋》里谈到的奎妮吗？她年轻时曾指导过杰克，后来嫁给了一位海军上将，而杰克的命运早期某种程度上就掌握在这位上将手中。如今奎妮和伦迪要举办一场盛大宴会，杰克和史蒂芬受邀前往。尽管杰克需要时刻保持警惕，他还是决定赴约。

You know, the queenie who we talked about in Master and Commander, who, as a younger woman, had really tutored Jack and then ended up being married to an admiral in whose hands, Jack's fate kind of rested earlier on. And Queenie now and Lundy giving a big party. Jack and Stephen are invited to go. And Jack, despite having to take a look over his shoulder all the time, wants to make his way there.

没错。杰克仍希望能争取到一艘船，他知道需要去结交权贵，比如基思勋爵和梅尔维尔勋爵的人脉。于是他参加了奎妮举办的这场晚宴，遇到了富商坎宁。尽管杰克在岸上遇到的多数人都有些两面三刀、投机取巧或可能暗中算计他，但坎宁却是个直爽开朗、思想开放、友善的角色，对奥布里式人物充满同情。坎宁基本上是在说：'我正在为私掠船寻找船长'。但在宴会上，他不能直接询问杰克，那样有违礼节。

That's right. So still in hopes of managing to secure a ship and knowing that he needs to go and hang out with the well-to-do and personal connections of Lord Keith and, and Lord Melville. Jack goes along to this soiree or this route hosted it by Queenie, and he encounters this wealthy merchant, Canning. And even though so many of the other shore bound characters that Jack meets are a little bit duplicitous or a little bit open to the main chance or a little bit likely to intrigue against him we get this bluff, jovial, open minded, friendly, know, Aubrey sympathetic character cunning who's basically gonna say, I'm looking for a captain for a privateer. And at the party, he's not willing to ask Jack outright because that would be against etiquette.

但他非常非常明显地暗示正在为这艘私掠船物色指挥官。这将是最庞大的私掠船，能进行远洋巡航。没有海军上将，没有海军部委员会，没有护航队，没有急件——只管出海夺取战利品。我们确实应该把这视为杰克的绝佳机会，只要他能意识到这一点。

But he kind of hints very very very broadly that he's looking for a commander for this privateer. It's going be the biggest privateer afloat. It's going to cruise long distances. No admirals, no board of the admiralty, no convoys, no dispatches, just get out there and take prizes. I think we're really meant to see this as a plum opportunity for Jack if only he can see it as such.

我认为部分原因是杰克对海军身份的天生自豪感，使得他仍将私掠船视为某种低档次的勾当。但我也觉得他不确定与史蒂芬的关系——他们因戴安娜产生的竞争，也不确定战利品分配、索菲和外界对他的看法。他无法看清这位友善外向的商人提供的肥差就是表面看起来那么美好。读到这部分时我感到难过，心想：'醒醒吧你这傻瓜'。

And I think partly Jack's innate pride in the service means that, you know, he still regards the idea of a privateer as a very kind of, you know, low rent thing to be involved in. But also I think he's not sure about his where he stands with Steven and, you know, their rivalry over Diana. He's not sure where he stands with prize money and Sophie and the world. And I think he really can't see clearly that this friendly outgoing merchant offering him this plum job is really what it appears to be. And I feel really sad as I read that part of the story because I think, come on you clown.

你本可以重整旗鼓，娶那个命中注定的姑娘，或许还能借此修复与挚友史蒂芬的关系。直接接受这位好心商人的工作机会不就得了？但他完全没这么想，于是陷入进退两难的境地。他宁愿去追逐最渺茫、最不靠谱、看起来最荒谬的船只承诺，也不愿把握这个作为私掠船长的绝佳机会。

You know, you could set yourself to rights and you could marry the the girl, the one that you're meant to marry and you could probably thereby rescue your relationship with your best friend Steven. Just take the job from the nice merchant guy But he really doesn't see it like that and he's left dangling. And he's willing to go after the most slender, the most ill conditioned, the most kind of feeble looking promise of the most weird looking ship imaginable rather than take this nice plum opportunity of selling as a letterer of mark or a privateer.

是啊，有意思的是这部分让我联想到《怒海争锋》里迪伦说的：'他对战利品有点过分热衷了'。迪伦用了'商业'这个词，杰克几乎觉得必须反驳——尽管有机会时他也喜欢夺取战利品，但他认为自己并非没有荣誉感、爱国心。不过在奎妮宴会后那晚的公园散步时，他似乎对此有所反思：'海军部是怎么对待我的？'

Yeah. It is interesting because part of what resonated to me there was this thing of thinking back to Master and Commander and Dylan kind of saying, you know, he's just a little too interested in prize money. He's used this word commercial and Jack almost feels like he needs to call him out that, you know, he doesn't feel like he has honor and glory and love of country, even though he does like to take a prize given any opportunity. However, later in his walk in the park that night after Queenie's party, you know, he seems to play that out a little bit. You know, how's the Admiralty been to me?

'我在那里还有什么前途？坎宁的提议又如何？'就在他权衡利弊的同时，他也在思考是否该、甚至能否在索菲和戴安娜之间做选择。他进行了这场惊人的夜游——因为在公园里深夜漫步不太可能因债务被捕。

What's likely in my future there? What about this offer with Canning? What's gonna happen? At the same time that he's also kind of weighing the scales and also thinking about whether or not you can even weigh the scales or should weigh the scales or whether it's properly weigh the scales on Sophie versus Diana. He's got this incredible walk, which he can do in the dark of night because he's not likely to be arrested for death there, wandering on the park.

但和你一样，我也曾想过，哇，杰克，杰克，你已经为这个世界做好了准备。你为未来铺好了路。我想我们接下来会看到一系列截然不同的书。他说，好吧，坎宁，与其问我推荐什么，不如让我直接动手？所以那条小路上还会发生更多事，但首先，我们稍事休息。

But like you, I kind of thought, wow, Jack, Jack, you've set up for the world. You're set up for the future. And I guess we'd be set up for a very different set of books to follow. And he said, Well, Canning, rather than asking me for my recommendation, why don't I just do it? So more is gonna happen on that walk, but first, let's take a break.

欢迎回来。稍后我们将听到更多关于杰克夜间散步的故事。但首先，我们想探讨在桑葚庄园和奎妮家那些社交盛宴中发生了什么。为此，是时候请出一位拥有专业知识的嘉宾了。

Welcome back. We're gonna hear more about Jack's nighttime walks shortly. But first, we want to explore what was going on in those social set piece parties at Mulberry Lodge and at Queenie's. And to do that, it's time to meet someone who has some expert knowledge.

今天我们播客的嘉宾是凯伦·米利亚德。凯伦是一位历史社交舞蹈教师、活动组织者，也是常驻加拿大多伦多的历史重演者。她专精于简·奥斯汀的世界以及帕特里克·奥布莱恩的故事世界。欢迎你，凯伦。

We're joined on the podcast today by our guest Karen Milliard. Karen is a teacher of historical social dance and event organizer and reenactor based in Toronto in Canada. Karen specializes in the world of Jane Austen and also the world of the stories of Patrick O'Brien. So welcome, Karen.

早上好。

Good morning.

早上好。很高兴你能来。非常感谢你的加入。你是我们的首位嘉宾，我们非常激动能与你共处。

Good morning. Nice to have you with us. Thank you so much for joining. You're our inaugural guest, and we're super excited to have you with us.

谢谢。

Thank you.

是什么让你开始涉足历史重演这个领域的？

What got you started with this whole idea of reenacting history?

我认为这一切的根源要追溯到我11、12岁时，班级在多伦多一家活历史博物馆度过的一周。我们穿着符合时代特征的服装在旧式校舍上课，带着铁皮饭盒吃面包黄油，玩抓石子游戏和三角棒球，用十九世纪的地图学习知识。

I think that the roots of it were in a week that my class spent, I was about 11 or 12 at a living history museum here in Toronto. We were using the schoolhouse in historically appropriate clothing. We had dinner pails, bread and butter. We played Jacks and TrioCat. We learned from nineteenth century maps and things like that.

整整一周我们都严格遵循历史原貌。这对我影响深远。几年后，我就在这个历史村落当讲解员。记得十一月末的某个午后，游客散尽，炉火渐熄的炭块窸窣作响，时钟滴答声轻不可闻，那种几乎置身旧时代的强烈感受——简直像魔法般奇妙。

We didn't do a single anachronistic thing all week long. And that had a huge impact on me. Then a little bit later, just a few years later, I was working at the very same village as an interpreter. There was one particular afternoon, these late November afternoons, the public gone and the coals rustling as the fire dies down, the ticking of the clock so quiet and just a very powerful feeling of almost being in that earlier world. It was just just magical.

后来我又接触到英国乡村舞蹈，最终开始筹办简·奥斯汀主题舞会。

And then later on when I discovered English country dancing, and I eventually started doing the Jane Austen balls.

简·奥斯汀舞会？就是你们主办那种以简·奥斯汀为主题的正式舞会？

So Jane Jane Austen balls? Yeah. Like, as in you host an event that that is a Jane Austen themed ball?

没错。当时我已在运营一个休闲社交舞团，想到影视改编作品很受欢迎，就决定举办奥斯汀舞会——可以告诉观众'电影里的场景，现在你们也能亲身体验'。

Yes. Yes. I was already running this recreational social dance group. And I decided to do the Jane Austen ball because people are seeing the movies, the adaptations were very popular. And I thought, okay, so if I can just say, yeah, you've seen this in the movies, come and do it with us.

这似乎是吸引新人入门的好方法。

It just seemed like an easy way to introduce people and get them interested. This

所以这不是双人交谊舞，而是那种队列式的传统集体舞？

is the kind of dancing that's not couple ballroom dancing. You're talking about the formal kind of dancing in sets?

是的。它并不完全正式，因为这种舞蹈形式本身就带有一种内在的欢快，我想，还有欢乐。很多时候，它是一种非常快乐且精神高昂的舞蹈形式。但没错，就是你在简·奥斯汀电影里看到的那样。人们成群结队地跳舞。

Yes. It's not exactly formal because the dance form itself has a kind of built in gaiety, I guess, and merriment. It's a very happy and high spirited dance form a lot of the time. But yes, it's what you see in the Jane Austen movies. It's people dancing in groups.

你有一个舞伴，但你也有邻居和角落之类的。实际上，它与方块舞、苏格兰乡村舞等类似舞蹈有关。

You have a partner, but you also have neighbors and corners and things like that. It's actually related to things like square dance and Scottish country dancing and things like that.

哦，好的。

Oh, okay.

最终，我决定在此基础上扩展。于是，我开始举办比如我的简·奥斯汀周末活动。我们有动手实践的工作坊。人们真的在明火上烹饪食物。我们学习用羽毛笔和封蜡写信。

Eventually, I decided to just expand from that. So, I began doing, for example, my Jane Austen weekend. We have hands on workshops. People actually cook food over an open fire. We learn to write letters with quill pens and sealing wax.

当然，我们会跳舞。我们有多顿饭是在火光和烛光下享用的。这些活动让我能够与人们分享一种沉浸式的触觉体验，真是太充实了。这就是当时的样子。真的非常、非常令人满足。

We, of course, dance. We have multiple meals eaten by firelight and candlelight. And those have just been so fulfilling to be able to share an immersive tactile experience with people. This is what it was like. It's been really, really deeply satisfying.

太棒了。听起来就像是在重温你作为女学生时的那个时刻，想着现在我真的接触到了真实的历史生活。

Fantastic. And it sounds like as reliving almost that moment that you had as a school girl thinking, now I'm really in touch with real living history.

是的。是的。太棒了。

Yes. Yes. Fantastic.

凯伦，告诉我，你是怎么发现帕特里克·奥布莱恩的？是什么让你进入这些奥布里·马特隆书籍的世界？

Karen, tell me, how did you discover Patrick O'Brien? What led you into the world of these Aubrey Matron books?

这些书是别人推荐给我的，我一读就爱上了它们。我完全被它们吸引住了。我一直喜欢航海、船只以及任何与船和水有关的事物。再加上历史和文学作品的绝佳品质，我简直爱不释手。最终，我决定也在这个方向上扩展我的活动。

The books were recommended to me, and I just got I just fell straight in love with them. I got completely absorbed by them. I've always loved sailing and boats and anything to do with boats and water and ships. So that together with history and the fantastic quality of the literature was just just absolutely adored it. And eventually decided to expand my activities in that direction as well.

于是我开始在周末做我的奥布里·马特活动，叫做“掌握指挥官”，这个活动每年秋天都会举办，已经持续了五六年。这同样是一种沉浸式体验。我们周末的活动从乘坐一艘高桅帆船在安大略湖上出发开始。下午我们会有一段美妙的巡航，还有五顿饭。

So I started to do my Aubrey Matcher in weekend, which is called Mastering Commander, it has happened every fall, every autumn for the last five or six years now. And again, it's an immersive experience. We start the weekend with going out on a tall ship on Lake Ontario. We have a wonderful cruise in the afternoon. And we have five meals.

我们唱海上的劳动号子。上周，我们的水手长还给我们安排了水手椅，让我们体验了一把。

We sing sea shanties. We had our boson rigging a boson's chair giving us rides this last week.

太棒了。

That's fantastic.

我们还进行了决斗。你知道，船上的厨师教我们如何腌制猪肉和各种东西。

We've had duels. You know, we've had the ships cook, teaching us how to cook salt pork and all kinds of things.

哦，太棒了。所以我得问下一个问题，是的。操作过火枪。你们有没有也操作过大炮？这些重演活动有没有到开火的地步？

Oh, fantastic. So I've I've gotta ask the next question, which is Yeah. Handled muskets. Did did you also get to handle cannon? Did did these reenactments get to the point of firing a gun?

这完全取决于场地。我们经常去约克堡，那是港口附近一座1812年战争时期的堡垒。

That all depends on the site. We often go down to Fort York, which is an 1812 era fort down in the harbor.

然后

And

我们在那里进行过各种活动。获得过使用步枪和大炮的许可。周末其他时间的主要场地一直是蒙哥马利客栈，那是城市另一处绝妙的博物馆，不过那里实际上不允许使用火药。但我们开展过各种其他精彩活动。当我在其他重演活动时——比如与书籍无关的1812年战争重演——

we have done things there. There is some permission to fire muskets and cannon. Our main site for the rest of the weekend has always been Montgomery's Inn, which is a marvelous, marvelous museum in another part of the city, and we're not actually allowed to use gunpowder there. But we've done all kinds of wonderful other things. And when I'm at another reenactment, you know, off-site, like an 1812 reenactment that has nothing to do with the books

是啊，是啊。

Yeah. Yeah.

我是海军重演者。在那里我被委以管理缓燃导火索的任务。没错，我在水面上发射过火炮。

I'm a naval reenactor. And there, I have been put in charge of the slow match. So I fired the guns, yes, from out on the water.

太棒了。那种体验是怎样的？点燃大炮的瞬间是什么感觉？

Fantastic. What what's that experience like? What's what's the moment of setting the can off?

那一定是

That must be

相当震撼的体验。

quite an visceral experience.

嗯，声音非常大。而且这些只是小炮，相比战舰上实际配备的那些大炮来说。记得几年前，我参加过一次重演活动，他们用的应该是一门40磅炮。

It's well, it's very loud. And these are just tiny guns compared to the ones, you know, that you would have actually had on a warship. Mind you, a couple of years ago, I was actually at a reenactment where they had a I think it was a 40 pounder.

那真是个大家伙。

That's a big old beast.

岸防炮。他们开火时警告了所有人，因为天哪，噪音太可怕了。仅仅一门炮，我还站在相当远的距离。但坐在船上炮位正后方时，我只能堵住一只耳朵，因为另一只手要稳住镜头。

Shore. And they fired that gun. They warned everybody because, oh my god, the din was appalling. It was just one gun and I was at quite a distance. But sitting right behind the gun on the boat, I can only plug one ear because I've got the lens back right there.

那已经够吵了。所有人都穿着海军制服，我穿着厚呢短大衣和长裤，头发编成辫子垂在背后。那种感觉太棒了，非常特别。

And it's loud enough. And everybody's in their naval outfits. I was there in my pea jacket and my trousers and my hair was braided in a queue down my back. And it's just wonderful. It's pretty extraordinary.

偶尔，我会对着迎面驶来的其他船员大喊1812年风格的侮辱性话语。

And occasionally, I've yelled eighteen twelve era insults at the other crews as they go by the other direction.

天哪。有没有...

Oh my word. Are are any

这些内容适合公开播放吗？还是我们应该等到制作明确标记的剧集时再讨论？

of them suitable for public broadcast or should we come back to that when we're doing our our explicit tagged episode maybe?

哦，主要是些关于梳草情人之类的主题。

Oh, it's mostly things along the lines of grass combing lovers and things like that.

哦，很好。在所有情人类型中，我们最喜欢梳草的那种。对，这很好。

Oh, good. Okay. Of all the lovers, we like the grass combing ones. Yeah, that's good.

是啊。

Yeah.

太棒了。凯伦，你研究了这么多关于社交行为、舞蹈和时尚的内容，帕特里克·奥布莱恩在写作中表现如何？你发现了什么？

Great. Karen, you've studied so much about social behavior and dancing and fashion of this How is Patrick O'Brien doing in the way he writes it? What have you spotted?

总体而言，我给予他很高评价。他的研究非常出色。虽然有些小错误，但随着系列推进大多得到了修正。正如他在几篇前言中提到的，可能有些知识渊博的读者帮他做了细微修正，或是他自己的研究揭示了生活某些细节的更多信息。这个系列早期最显著的问题之一，就是我偶尔称之为'泛滥的握手礼'——人们在初次见面时到处握手。

Generally speaking, I rank him very high. He he his his research was extraordinary. There are some little errors here and there, but mostly he corrected those as the series went on. There may have been well informed readers who, as he's acknowledged in a couple of his introductions here and there, they've just made little corrections for him or maybe his own research revealed more about a particular detail or aspect of life. One of the most notable earlier in this series is, what I have called occasionally the promiscuous handshaking that occurs all over the place when people are introduced.

这绝对不可能发生。那是个非常讲究礼仪的社会，即便在海军中也是如此。社交礼仪在人们幼年时就已根深蒂固。握手只发生在社交关系极其亲密的人之间，比如至交好友，或是迎接新家庭成员时——比如有人刚订婚之类——你们会握手表示欢迎。但当...

This absolutely would not have happened. It was a very formal society, even in the Navy. The social cues were ingrained in people very, very early on in life. Handshaking was something that only took place between people who were very, very socially intimate, very close friends, or you might've been welcoming someone into the family, say if someone had just gotten engaged or whatever, you shook hands to welcome them. But when you

船上初次见面的同事，那时候可不会有握手这种礼节。

Colleagues on board ship meeting for the first time, that wouldn't have been a handshaking moment then.

确实不会。那时人们会鞠躬行礼。在海军中当然要敬军礼，社交场合——尤其是岸上初次遇见某人时——要么鞠躬，要么行屈膝礼。若遇见同僚或军中成员则需敬礼。但在平民生活中，人们总是戴着手套鞠躬或屈膝。这是另一项...

Well, no, You would have bowed. You saluted, of course, also in the Navy, you saluted and socially, certainly onshore, your first encounter with somebody would have been a bow or a curtsy. If you're meeting another officer or another member of the service, you would have saluted. But in civilian life, bowed and curtsied, and usually with gloves on. So that was the other thing you

确实如此。

certainly on.

没错。不过晚间参加社交活动时，手套是必备品。

Yes. Yes. But in the evening, you always wore gloves for social events.

明白了。这么说即使在梅尔伯里庄园舞会这样的场合，人们也戴着手套——用现代的话说，这算是一种'社交距离'的体现。

Alright. So gloved even at a even at a ball like the one at Melbury Lodge, that would have been an occasion for still this kind of I'll I'll use a contemporary phrase, social distancing.

完全正确。当时这绝对是必须遵守的礼仪，你在当时的文学作品中就能看到相关描述。

Absolutely. Yes. Very much so. It was something that you absolutely did. You you can see that in contemporary literature.

准备跳舞时才戴手套。在英国乡村舞中，唯一需要肢体接触的就是手部动作。到了后期，华尔兹等双人舞流行起来——起初华尔兹还被认为极其放荡，因为舞伴需要触碰对方的躯干。

You're about to dance, so you put on your gloves. The only time you touched people in the dance was with your hands in English country dancing. Yeah. Later in the period, of course, the waltz came in in other couples' dances. They were considered well, waltz at first was considered extremely lewd because you were touching the other person's torso.

这在大约两百年间的英国舞会上都未曾发生过。因此，这显得极为大胆出格。但在英国乡村舞蹈中，人们保持距离，仅以手相触，且必定戴着手套。

This hadn't happened on the English dance floor in about two hundred years. So, it was extremely risque. But, in English country dancing, you kept your distance, you only touched hands and definitely with gloves.

那么还可能发生了些什么？我们最近一直在讨论，后任舰长杰克和斯蒂芬在梅尔伯里小屋举办了一场舞会。

So what else might have been going on? We've been talking lately about, post captain and Jack and Stephen host a ball at Melbury Lodge.

是的。

Yes.

邻近的海军上将哈沃克上将也出席了。我们阅读这段文字时，还能回想起那里可能发生了哪些其他事情？

The neighboring admiral, admiral Havoc's in attendance. What else might have been going on there that we can call to mind when we're reading through this passage?

那里存在着各种关于等级的问题，非常微妙的等级划分。而私人舞会的举办方式与公共舞会截然不同。

There were there are all these questions of rank, very subtle gradations of rank. And at a private ball, which was conducted quite differently from a public ball

嗯。

Mhmm.

通常由在场地位最高的人开启舞会、领舞开场。如果海军上将在场跳舞，他就是地位最高的男性。若有新娘在场，无论其平日身份如何，她会被暂时视为地位最高的女性。例如在巴斯等温泉小镇的公共舞会上，通常采用抽签制度——女士们抽取号码来决定她们在舞队中的位置。不像电影里所有人同时起舞，实际只有最上层的舞者会与紧邻的一两对舞伴共舞。

The people who began the ball, who opened the ball, were usually the highest ranking people there. And if the admiral were dancing, he would have been the highest ranking man. If there were a bride present, she would have been considered the highest ranking woman temporarily, regardless of her rank in ordinary life. At a public ball, for example, public balls at Bath or other spa towns, there was usually a lottery system where the ladies would draw numbers, and that's how it determined where they stood in the set. Unlike in the movies where everybody's moving at once, it was the top couple dancing only with the next couple or two below them.

因此，最上方的女士，也就是第一位女士，实际上必须负责选择舞蹈并告诉乐师演奏什么曲目。她会在跳舞时向邻近的人传授舞步，然后在一轮结束后向下移动。他们会向下移动，开始与下方的人共舞。换句话说，最上方的一对逐渐沿着队列向下移动，而下方的一对则逐渐向上移动。你可以在电影中看到这种场景，但电影的不同之处在于所有舞者都在同时移动。

And so the top woman, the very first woman, had to actually be the one to choose the dance and to tell the musicians what to play. And she would teach the dance essentially while doing it to her neighbors, and then they would move down after one round to the dance. They would move down and begin dancing with the people below them. So in other words, the top couple was gradually working their way down the set, and the couples below were working their way gradually up. You can see that in the movies, but the difference in the film is that all of the dancers are moving at once.

而这在舞蹈最初的历史上并非如此。是那些向下移动的人为下方所有其他舞者开启了舞蹈模式。这在电视上看起来效果并不理想。

And that was not the case historically at the beginning of the dance. It was the ones working their way down who flipped the switch for all the other dancers below. That doesn't make for very good television.

不，不。因为有很多人静止不动，等待他们的舞蹈部分逐渐展开。

No, no. Because it's a lot of static people waiting for their part of the dance to kind of evolve.

没错。好的。

That's right. Okay.

凯伦，作为一名历史重演者，当你和你的客人们重现这些时代背景时，似乎人们从中获得的体验远比单纯阅读书籍要丰富得多。你能详细谈谈这一点吗？

So Karen, as a reenactor, it seems like as you're reenacting all these times and settings with you and your guests, perhaps people are getting a lot more out of the experience than they would by just reading the books. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

这是一种沉浸式体验。它以触觉的方式让历史活起来，让你亲身体验当时的物质现实。当然，我们不会真的放老鼠或象鼻虫之类的东西，但会尽可能接近真实。

It's an immersive experience. It's, it's bringing it to life in a tactile way. You are experiencing the physical realities. I mean, of course, don't have rats, we don't have weevils, and all those kinds of things. We get as close as we can.

我永远忘不了，那应该是我第一次参加简·奥斯汀主题周末。我到达现场后，穿着晨袍正在盘头发，然后走进了早餐室。

I'll never forget. Actually, I think it was my very first Jane Austen weekend. I had arrived on-site. I was in my morning gown and getting my hair up. Then I came into the breakfast room.

炉火正旺。人们围坐着，啜饮着热巧克力、茶或咖啡，享用着格鲁吉亚式早餐。一股幸福的暖流突然涌上心头，我心想：这就是我想要的，这正是我努力想要实现的情景。

The fire was going. There were all these people sitting and sipping their drinking chocolates or their tea and coffee and eating their Georgian breakfast. And I just felt this wave of happiness well up in me. And I thought, this is what I wanted. This is exactly what I was aiming to achieve.

当然，来参加活动的都是些有趣的人。有学生、裁缝师、1812年战争重演爱好者，还有帕特里克·奥布莱恩的狂热书迷——那种骨灰级粉丝。

Of course, they're interesting people who come out to these. We have students. We have dressmakers. We have eighteen twelve reenactors. We have Patrick O'Brien freaks, like real hardcore fans.

那边可真是有些怪咖呢。

There's some proper freaks right there.

噢，还有只看过简·奥斯汀电影却从未读过原著的人。形形色色的参与者让这一切充满乐趣，实在是妙不可言。

Oh, people who've seen the Jane Austen movie, have never read the books. We get all kinds of people, and it's a delight. It's an absolute delight.

太棒了。这些人是大多来自多伦多周边地区，还是更远的地方？

Fantastic. These are people coming from the immediate area around Toronto or are they coming from further away?

当然有不少多伦多本地人，也有来自安大略省各地乃至加拿大各地的参与者。我们接待过不列颠哥伦比亚省维多利亚市、温哥华、新斯科舍省，还有纽约、波士顿、芝加哥的访客，甚至有好几位来自加利福尼亚。能与他们分享这一切实在太美好了。更美妙的是，很多人在这里缔结了新的友谊。

We have, of course, quite a few people from Toronto, people from various parts of Ontario and various parts of Canada. We've had people from Victoria, BC, Vancouver, Nova Scotia, New York City, Boston, Chicago, several people from California. It's been just lovely to share all of this with them. The other lovely thing is that a lot of people have made new friendships

这个

this

是啊。

way.

当然。

Of course.

没错，这真的很棒。

Yeah. It's it's lovely.

你提到与新斯科舍省来的历史重演者合作，这让我想起在小说《外科医生的伴侣》中——比我们现在讨论的情节靠后几部——有一场盛大的舞会。在不剧透斯蒂芬和杰克故事线的前提下，哈利法克斯市曾庆祝过一个重大场合，奥布莱恩详细描述了那场不同的舞会。但我想，这与我们在梅尔伯里庄园及伦敦早期系列中看到的社会场景截然不同。

So you you mentioned working with reenactors who traveled from Nova Scotia. That reminds me that, of course, there's a big ball in, the novel Surgeon's Mate, which is a few novels further on than where we are now. And perhaps without going into content that is a spoiler for those who care about the arc of Stephen and Jack, there's a big occasion that gets celebrated in the city of Halifax. And that's another ball that O'Brien tells us about in some detail. But that's different, I think, from the kind of social situation that we're seeing at Melbury Lodge and in London earlier on in the series.

确实如此。那种性质的舞会严格讲究等级制度，体现你在社会阶层中的位置。不同社会阶层常有专属舞会，而这场显然是最高阶层的盛会，某些人根本不可能收到邀请。

Yes. Very definitely. A ball of that nature was definitely a question of rank, where you fit into the social strata. There were often balls for different levels of society, and this one clearly is for the highest ranking people. Certain kinds of people simply would not have been invited to this ball.

哈利法克斯舞会另一个令我着迷的方面在于它的历史真实性。若有机会，我们后续确实有很多值得探讨的内容。

The other aspect that is so fascinating to me about the Halifax ball is that it was a historical reality. So yes, there will be lots to talk about later on if we get the opportunity.

那我们该计划回头讨论这个，那会非常精彩。

Well, think we should plan to come back to that. That would be fantastic.

凯伦，你提到发现了帕特里克·奥布莱恩的作品，并且你有关于船只与水域的历史背景。我总觉得代表女性发言有点奇怪，我并非此意，但我很好奇你对女性接触帕特里克·奥布莱恩书籍的看法。女性阅读他的作品会获得什么？

Karen, you talked about discovering Patrick O'Brien and that you've got a history of boats and water and ships. And I always feel a little funny sort of saying, speaking for your gender, I don't mean that, but I'm curious as to your thoughts on you know, women coming to Patrick O'Brien's books. What would be the payoff for women reading Patrick O'Brien?

哦，多么精彩的问题。我们从关于不同性别阅读方式的研究中了解到，女性通常比男性涉猎的主题更广泛。例如，男性较少阅读以女性为主角的书，而这对于女性读者则毫无影响。但我认为很明显，帕特里克·奥布莱恩是相当女权主义的，他的思想非常细腻。

Oh, what a wonderful question. Well, we know from studies that have been done about how different genders read, women typically embrace a wider range of topics than men. Men, for example, are less likely to read a book with a female protagonist, for example, whereas that doesn't make any difference to women and so on. But I think that it's very clear that Patrick O'Brien was pretty feminist. His thinking is very nuanced.

而且，我认为随着系列作品的推进，这一点愈发明显。他对社会中女性地位的思考很早便显现出来。他对坚强、独立个体的女性的巨大钦佩与尊重极其清晰。此外，他对一切事物的思考都极为精妙。个人而言，我认为他是个天才。

It's very, and it becomes, I think, more and more so throughout the series. I think he was very thoughtful about the position of women in society that appears very early on. His enormous admiration and respect for strong individual independent women is very, very clear. Also, think just the subtlety of his thinking about everything. Mean, personally, I think he was a genius.

精妙之处在于，他处理人类境况的复杂性时充满了同情、机智、复杂、洞见与幽默。书中散布着许多微妙的文学典故，包括许多对简·奥斯汀作品的低调引用。我认为这简直是场盛宴。对任何聪明的读者来说，这些都是绝妙的书籍。

Subtlety, the intricacy of his handling of the human condition is so full of compassion, wit, complexity, insight and humor. There are so many subtle little literary references, including many very quiet sort of silent references to Jane Austen sprinkled out throughout the books. And it's I think it's just a feast. They're wonderful books for any intelligent reader.

凯伦，希望我们都能在未来几周或几个月内恢复更正常的生活。假设如此，在接下来的时间里，你可能会参与哪些项目或重演活动？

Karen, hopefully, we all get to live a life that looks more like normality in the coming weeks and months. Assuming that we do, what kind of projects or reenactments might we find you in in the coming weeks or months?

嗯，我们或许可以调整一些活动到户外进行，保持社交距离等。我常在冬季组织十八世纪的化装舞会，所以面具是现成的。

Well, there may be things that we can do adapting some events to the outdoors using social distancing and so on. I have often done eighteenth century masquerade balls in the winter. So masks.

你知道人们常说的，如果你无法解决它，就把它变成特色。

You know what they say, if you can't fix it, feature it.

是的，我们拭目以待吧。我保持相当乐观的态度。我认为当这一切结束后，世界可能会变得非常不同。我们很快会召开会议讨论，比如我的现代英格兰乡村舞蹈委员会即将开会，我也会咨询我的常客和志愿者们。

Yeah. So we'll see what happens. I'm keeping fairly optimistic. I think the world is probably going to look very different when this is over. We're going to be talking you know, my committee for the modern English country dance will be talking soon, and I will be consulting my regulars and my volunteers.

没错。但我们会先观察情况，制定一些可能的方案，并保持我们的...

Yeah. But we'll we'll just look at it and and get some ideas in place for, possibilities and keep our

祝你们好运连连，万事如意。

fingers Many, many best wishes and good luck.

如果人们想了解更多关于你们的活动，或者在我们逐渐回归某种常态后了解周末活动信息，他们该如何联系你们并获取更多资讯？

If people want to find out more about what you do, or learn more about the weekends as as our times get back to whatever normal becomes, how would they find you and how would they find out more about you?

有几种方式。一是我的网站jainaustondancing.ca。我在推特上也很活跃，其中一个账号是jainaustondance。另一个更偏个人向的账号是eighteen twelve dance。

There are several ways. One is my website, jainaustondancing.ca. I'm also very active on Twitter. One of my Twitter handles is jainaustondance. And the other one, which is more navel in nature, is at eighteen twelve dance.

凯伦，非常感谢你抽空做客《The Lovers Hole》节目。再次感谢。

Karen, thanks so very much for taking time out to be with us here on The Lovers Hole. Thank you again.

非常感谢你们。与你们交谈非常愉快，祝你们的播客节目一切顺利。我会怀着极大兴趣持续关注的。

Thank you so much. It's been a real pleasure talking with you, and I wish you the best of luck with the podcast. I will be following it with great interest.

让我们回到《后舰长》的剧情节点，维基百科情节概要这样描述：一个蹩脚的小偷在杰克·阿尔伯里户外行走时接近他。这个小偷斯克里文先生，被证明是个有用的朋友，他通晓债务法律，知道阿尔伯里能在哪里躲避法警追捕。阿尔伯里和马塔林搬到了萨沃伊自由区葡萄园藏身。此刻他们身处英国社会的另一个层面，某种程度上成了法律追逃的对象。

So just to navigate back to where we are in post captain, at this point, the Wikipedia plot summary says this, an inadequate thief approaches Jack Albury as he walks outdoors. This thief, mister Scriven, proves to be a useful friend knowing the law of debt and knowing where Albury can be safe from bailiffs. Albury and Matarin moved to the grapes safe in the liberties of the Savoy. So they're in another version of British society now that they're kind of on the run from the law.

是的。这完全是他们全新的生活方式。杰克实际上——只要超出特定范围——随时可能因这笔债务被捕。所以他不得不隐藏行踪，秘密行动。书中还详细描述了哪些情况下安全：比如周日是自由的，在船上就没事，某些特定地理位置也是安全的。

Yeah. This is really a different a whole different lifestyle for them. Jack really, outside of certain bounds, is subject to be arrested at any time for this level of debt. So he has to, you know, hide himself, go very secretly. And apparently there's a great deal of detail into, you know, Sundays are free, when you're on the ship you're okay, certain parts of the physical locations are okay.

而杰克对此一无所知。史蒂文以其特有的助人方式，意识到斯克里宾斯掌握这些规则，并正利用这些知识再次帮助杰克。

And Jack has no notion of this. And Steven, in his helpful way, realizes that Scribbins does and is using him and that knowledge to help Jack once again.

那么你对斯克里宾斯先生这个角色有什么看法？

So what did you think of the character of Mr. Scribbins then?

你看，这多有意思——这个本该是'不给钱就割喉'的恶棍，却表现得如此拙劣。杰克原本深陷情感纠葛，反复思考着黛安娜还是索菲的选择...

Well, you know, it's so fascinating that here you have this person who is presumably going to cut your neck if you don't give him your purse, but he's horrible. He's horrible. He does it very badly. And Jack, who has been so deep in thought, starting to call himself up on, you know, is it Diana? Is it Sophie?

他甚至纠结这种情况下讲逻辑是否合理，毕竟杰克是个浪漫主义者。而就在此时，有人跳出来说'要钱还是要命'，结果杰克直接把他揍得落花流水。

How do I even, you know, is it even legitimate to bring logic to bear in this situation, Jack, who's such a romantic? And in the midst of all this, somebody says, know, essentially, your purse or your life. And, and, and Jack just knocks him out, essentially. He eats him pretty badly.

他直接把那人扛起来摔过肩膀什么的，没错。

He picks him up and throws him over his shoulder or something, yeah.

对，对。把他裹起来是因为不想弄脏制服，然后扛在肩上带回家让史蒂文处理。你可以联想到狄更斯笔下或其他作品中的各种角色，但在这里，这个家伙——杰克与他交流不多。而史蒂芬趁杰克早晨小憩时开始与他交谈，询问他，让他讲述自己的经历。显然，斯克里本表现得非常卑躬屈膝。

Right, right. Wraps him up because he doesn't want to get his uniform dirty and, you know, puts him over his shoulder and takes him home for Steven to sort him out. This could be, you can think of all kinds of characters in Dickens and other places that this could be. But no, no, here is this guy as, as, you know, Jack hasn't had much discussion with him. But Stephen, while Jack is snoozing a little bit in the morning, starts to talk to him and ask him and he says, you know, tell me, oh, well, and Scribbon is clearly kind of very subservient.

他学识渊博，懂得些正经礼仪。他请求史蒂芬能否自我介绍一下，说明如何沦落至此。他说：‘至于我自己，我开始为书商做翻译。曾靠一篇关于德鲁伊的公正论述和《女士杂志》上的小品文勉强糊口一个月。’

He's very learned. He's got some proper etiquette. And he asks Stephen if he can give an account of himself to tell him, you know, sort of how he got to this point. And, you know, he says, For my own part, I took to translating for the booksellers. Had had to live a month on the case of the druids impartially considered a little piece in the lady's repository.

而关于德鲁伊的文章报酬只够买面包和牛奶。我们约定每半基尼一页稿费。故事就这样延续，你会想，奥布莱恩从哪儿找来这些素材？并不好笑。

And the druids did not run to more than bread and milk. We agreed for half a Guinea sheet. And it goes on and on, and you think, where does O'Brien get this stuff? Not funny.

此刻听你朗读时，我倒觉得这个叫斯克里文的家伙有点尤赖亚·希普的影子。你知道，他既有些荒谬可笑，又带点怪诞，但最终是个值得同情的可怜人，勉强谋生，还带着几分矫揉造作和自我意识。

As it's funny, just right now, as I hear you read out, I'm thinking there's a little bit of Uriah heap about this guy, Scriven, somehow. You know, he's this slightly ridiculous, slightly grotesque, but really ultimately sympathetic person trying to scrape a living, and a bit mannered and a bit self conscious as well.

千真万确。当虱子在杰克身上爬时，史蒂芬主动承担起清理照顾他的责任。甚至当史蒂芬问杰克打算怎么处置他时，杰克说‘我要把他交给警察’，而史蒂芬反应激烈：‘不，不，他会被绞死的。这样吧，我出钱买下他。’这情节让我震撼不已。

Absolutely so true. And, you know, with the with the the louse crawling on Jack, crawling on him. And Steven, you know, taking it upon himself, you know, to clean this guy up, to take care of this guy. And even, I, I was so taken back to, to offer to per you know, when he asks Jack what you're gonna do with him, and, know, Jack says, you know, I'm gonna turn him over to the constable and say, no, no, he'll be hung. You know, I'll tell you what, I'll buy him from you.

杰克反问：‘什么？你打算现在就解剖他吗？’

Jack says, what, you mean to dissect him already? Is that

没错。杰克立刻看穿了西格蒙德性格中那毛骨悚然的一面。

Yeah. Jack's got straight onto the ghoulish side of Sigmund's character.

但是不，史蒂文会把他当作又一个可以救赎的项目接手。而且我认为，正如你指出的，他看出这家伙对杰克和杰克当前的困境会有极大帮助。

But but no, Steven is going to take him on as yet another project that he can redeem. And I think sees, as you point out, that this guy can be tremendously helpful to Jack and Jack's current predicament.

好吧。现在坐下来。告诉我你对债务法了解多少。你或许能成为那个帮我们避免入狱几周甚至几天的人，好让杰克顺利登船。

Okay. Now sit down here. Tell me what you know about the law of debt. You could be the guy that helps us to stay out of jail for just enough weeks for or days for Jack to make it onto his ship.

没错。

Right.

有趣的是，我在网上读过。你和我最近开始有点参与HMS Surprise的枪械室讨论，那是个很棒的邮件列表。那里聚集了一群真正有趣的人，他们提供的资源非常宝贵。

It's funny. I've I've read online. You and I've been starting to kind of take part a little bit in the gun room of HMS Surprise, which is a mail serve list on the Internet, which is great. Really interested bunch of people there. Those are great resources that they've offered.

回顾那个论坛上关于《舰长》的讨论存档，有些人讨论斯克里文这个角色是否带点自传性质——是否奥布莱恩在书中以略带自嘲的方式呈现了自己。你觉得这个观点如何？确实，这像是他会做的事，不是吗？靠翻译谋生，生活清贫，还得和出版商讨价还价，这些听起来都像是奥布莱恩可能...

Looking back into the archives of the discussion of post captain on that board, there were some people discussing whether the character of Scriven might have been a little bit autobiographical, whether that's Orion presenting himself in a slightly self deprecating way as a character in the books. What do you think of that idea? Yeah. I mean, it's the kind of thing that he would do, isn't it? You know, living off translations, living in humble circumstances, you know, having to haggle with publishers, this all sounds like O'Brien might have

在谈论他自己的生活。非常，

been talking about his own life. Very,

非常贴近他本人的生活。你知道吗，你会怀疑是否看到奥布莱恩将自己投射到系列中不同角色身上，就连这本里戴安娜那个被她打发去拜访的疯癫表亲也是。

Very much his own life. You know, you kind of wonder if you see O'Brien inserting himself in different people, in different places along the series, even in this one with Diana's mad cousin that she sent off to visit.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

劳伦斯表弟。

Cousin Lawrence.

没错。他就在这里过着另一种

Yeah. Here he is living Another

隐士般的生活，试图写作，但这次的精神状态可没上次那么稳定。

recluse trying to write, but this time not on quite such a sound basis of of sanity.

对，完全正确。天啊，你知道吗，这里我特别喜欢的还有一点，就是这些角色之间已经开始酝酿一些小矛盾了。债务问题显然是个麻烦。

Right. Absolutely. Oh, my goodness. You know, one of the things that I love here too is that, you know, we've got a little bit of trouble brewing between these characters. We've got certainly the trouble from debt.

但奥布莱恩特意花篇幅提醒我们他们之间的友谊，毕竟两人同住一个屋檐下。他们试图保持轻松愉快，彼此和睦相处。奥布莱恩让我们想起他们有点像早期《单身公寓》里的那对活宝——我指的是那部话剧改编的影视作品里性格迥异的两个角色。书中写道：他们节俭度日，相互照料，而最能证明这段友谊的，莫过于两人在生活习惯上天差地别却仍能和谐共处。在杰克眼里，史蒂文简直邋遢得无可救药。

But O'Brien takes time to remind us of the friendship too, as they're both living there. And they're trying to be a little light hearted, a little amiable with each other. O'Brien reminds us that they're kind of a little bit like the odd couple in the early days of, I'm thinking back to the plays and the television and the movie of these two characters who were so different from each other. O'Brien says, you know, they're looking after themselves, living with rigid economy, and there was no greater proof of their friendship than the way their harmony withstood their very grave differences in domestic behavior. In Jack's opinion, Steven was little better than a slut.

接着描述史蒂文如何把东西乱扔——身为医生却不收拾，用假发当茶壶保温套，牛奶锅随手乱放，早餐残渣到处都是。而做事井井有条的杰克系上围裙收拾残局时，史蒂文反倒嘲笑他有洁癖。

Goes on to tell about how he leaves all his stuff all over the place. He's the physician, but doesn't clean him up. You know, uses his wig for a tea cozy, for his milk saucepan, you know, has bits of his breakfast lying around. Jack being the ship shape guy puts on the apron, cleans it all up. Steven is harassing him about his standards of cleanliness.

说来有趣。提到这对怪咖搭档，我们上网搜索时，恰好找到了那部电影的片段，这就放给大家看。

So it's funny. Speaking of the odd couple, we went looking online, and we found a clip from that same movie, and here it comes.

怎么了，奥斯卡？这套系统有问题。这就是问题所在。我觉得两个单身汉住八居室的公寓，房子比我母亲打扫得还干净，这不对劲。等等。

What's wrong, Oscar? Something wrong with this system. That's what's wrong. I don't think that two single men living alone in a big eight room apartment should have a cleaner house than my mother. Wait.

等等。等等。你在说什么？我没说非得你来做。你不用打扫。

Wait. Wait. What are you talking about? I didn't say that you have to do it. You don't have to clean up.

可你做的事更过分。你总在我浴室里挂毛巾。每次我抽烟，你就端着烟灰缸跟着我转。昨晚我发现你在厨房擦地板，一边摇头一边嘟囔着‘脚印，脚印’。我可没说是你的脚印。

Well, what you do is worse. You're always in my bathroom hanging up my towels. Whenever I smoke, you follow me around with an ash tray. Last night, I found you in the kitchen washing the floor, shaking your head and moaning footprints, footprints. I didn't say they were yours.

但那就是我的脚印！见鬼，我有脚当然会留脚印。你想让我怎样？从橱柜上爬过去？

Well, they were mine. Damn it. I have feet and they make prints. What do you want me to do? Climb across the cabinets?

不，我只希望你正常走路。哦，那我可真谢谢你了。真的。我只是想让这地方能住人而已。

No. I just want you to walk on the floor. Oh, well, I appreciate that. I really do. All I'm trying to do is keep this place livable.

我不知道我惹你烦了

I didn't know I irritated you

那么多。

that much.

别碰我的照片。

Leave my pictures alone.

我只是想把它们摆整齐。我就喜欢歪着。这是我的照片。照片。要整齐你去摆你自己的。

I was just trying to even them up. Want them uneven. They're my pictures. Pictures. Even up your own pictures.

我在想这要多久。什么要多久？直到我惹你烦为止。

I was wondering how long it would take. How long what would take? Before I got on your nerves.

要知道，看到古怪搭档不只存在于19世纪初真是太好了，杰克·莱蒙、沃尔特·马托和帕特里克·奥布莱恩在这里向我们展示了同样美好的画面——杰克·奥布里上校对斯蒂芬·马特隆的百般照料，而后者大概觉得如果还没惹恼杰克，也快了。即便有紧张关系，即便身处艰难时期，奥布莱恩还是稍稍点亮了我们的日子。

You know, it's it's great to see that odd couples weren't limited to the early 1800s, but we see it here with Jack Lemmon, with Walter Matow, and Patrick O'Brien gave us a beautiful glimpse of the same thing with Captain Jack Aubrey trying to fuss after Stephen Matron, who probably was feeling that if he hadn't gotten on Jack's nerves yet, he was about to. Even with the tension, even with the tough times, here it is, O'Brien lightens our day just a little bit.

噢，太棒了。而且他态度转变得极快，不是吗？从他们之间那种幽默愉快、田园诗般友好的斗嘴关系，到实际上始终存在的对戴安娜的暗中较劲，他们开始不再对彼此完全坦诚。这让我觉得非常难过，心碎不已——当他们发现彼此仍在拜访已定居伦敦的戴安娜·维拉时。

Oh, it's great. And he turns on the head of a pin, doesn't he? Between the the good humor and and this kind of bucolic, friendly, happy bantering relationship they have. And then actually, there's there's always been this underlying this rivalry over Diana, and they're starting to just step back from being completely honest with each other. And for me, it's really sad, really heartbreaking as you see that they're that they both discover that they've both still been calling on Diana Villa is now that she's staying in London.

从这些长篇大论的嬉闹对话，突然变成极其简短的句子。杰克说：‘我没想到你会去布鲁顿街。’然后斯蒂芬没有机敏的反驳，只是点了点头。对话就这样缩简成了几乎像Pinterest上的半句短讯交流。

And from these kind of great big long knockabout exchanges, the sentences get really short. Jack says, I have no notion that you would call it Bruton Street. And then Stephen doesn't have a swift rejoinder. He just kind of nods. And the conversation's been shrunk down to this really almost Pinterest dialogue of short half sentences.

你能真切感受到这两人对彼此关系的定位毫无把握。这段本可快乐的友谊中竟潜藏着如此具有破坏性的嫉妒，实在令人唏嘘。

And you can really feel that these two people are really not sure about where they stand with each other. And it's just so sad that this potentially happy friendship also has this potentially destructive kind of jealousy between the two of them.

是啊。看着这些角色时，你常会想冲他们大喊——就像看恐怖片时那样'别别别，别去地下室！来电显示就在屋里！'明明有些简单方法可以解决问题：坦诚说出真实想法。

Yeah. And it really you look at these characters sometimes and you wanna shout at them like you do with the horror movie going, No, no, no, don't go down in the basement. No, the caller is in the house. It's like, Look, there are little simple things you could do here. You know, tell each other what you're really thinking.

告诉对方你的真实感受。但他们似乎遵循着某种绅士准则——尽管史蒂文无法告诉索菲杰克对她的感情，杰克也无法向史蒂文完全坦白。所有人都害怕被断然拒绝，仿佛那比死亡更可怕。这处境确实艰难。

Tell each other how you're really feeling. But there seems to be this code that they live by and this genteel code. Even though, you know, Steven can't tell Sophie how Jack feels about her, Jack can't really tell Steven all he feels. Everybody's worried about being rejected out of hand, you know, a a fate worse than death. And it's, it's really tough here.

就像我们之前在《怒海争锋》里讨论过的

And again, I mean, we talked in Master and Commander about

这种关系几乎像是男女之间的浪漫爱情

how the this relationship is almost like a romantic relationship between a man and a

确实如此。

woman. True.

在更快乐的时光里，这就像诺拉·艾芙伦笔下的兄弟情谊。但现在我们听到的仿佛是两对关系濒临破裂的情侣在争吵。我尤其喜欢奥布莱恩对这段落的收尾处理——若在戏剧化场景中，他们的对话本该以某人推开椅子怒吼'该死的'愤然离场，或是发表长篇大论标榜自身立场、贬低对方作结。但事实上他们都克制住了冲突爆发，史蒂文只是连声说着'不不，没事'。

And in happier times, was like a Nora Ephron bromance. But it's almost like we're hearing an argument between two couples whose relationship is on the brink of collapse. And I love the way O'Brien writes the end of this particular section, you know, in a sort of melodramatic setting, the conversation between them would have ended with one of them, you know, pushing back his chair and saying, damn you, and flouncing out or making a big speech kind of declaiming the virtue of their position and just how lousy the other one's position was. But actually they both just kind of claw back from an explosion. And Stephen says, no, no, no, it's fine.

我终究会和你一起去。而杰克说，好吧，既然你被邀请担任舰队医师，当然应该接受。最后他们和好了。我深受感动，他们最终还是和解了。

I will go with you after all. And Jack says, well, of course, if you've been offered job of the physician of the fleet, of course you should take it. And then in the end they make up. And I thought, was so affected by that. In the end they make up.

这是一种非常成熟但略带不和谐的夫妻结束对话的方式，而不是摔门而出，留下满地狼藉。真实的情况就是如此。所以我想我们的节目可能快要结束了。让我们总结一下：杰克和史蒂文仍在为黛安娜争风吃醋。

That's such a grown up, but slightly dysfunctional way for a couple to finish a conversation like this rather than with door slamming and, you know, rubble for True. The True. So I I think that we might be about up at the end of our episode. Let's just take stock. Jack and Steven still rivals for Diana.

我们还不知道事情会如何发展。索菲仍然对杰克痴迷不已。我觉得——不知道你怎么想——她希望杰克求婚，希望自己能做些什么，但又因对母亲的义务而犹豫不决，而她母亲显然是个善于操纵的老狐狸。不过现在，他们俩即将登上这艘古怪的波利奎斯特号执行离奇任务，这个话题我们下次应该再详谈。

We don't know how that's gonna play out. Sophie still really, really infatuated with Jack. And I think I don't know what you think. Wishing that Jack would propose and wishing that there was something that she could do, but held back by her duty to her mom, who's clearly this manipulative old trout. The two of them now, though, about to take on this very bizarre posting onto this very bizarre ship, the Polyquest, which we should talk about some more next time, I think.

或许在经历了岸上不礼貌社交和简·奥斯汀式世界的插曲后，一切都会重新好起来。等我们到达那里时，或许会有战斗、炮击和登船法国人的场面。

And maybe after the interlude of being ashore and impolite society and in the Jane Austen world, maybe it's all gonna be okay again. And maybe when we get to see there'll be action and cannons and boarding the French.

而且，杰克此刻正面临抉择，他说海军部给了这个职位，黛安娜则在暗示他应该更大胆些，她原以为他更有男子气概。同时他还得考虑海军、职责、索菲，或许还有乡村小屋的平静生活。谁知道呢？这些人会作何选择？

Well, and we've got this moment of decision for Jack as he's saying, you know, here's this offer from the Admiralty, and he's got Diana kind of saying, Step out there, be a little bolder. I thought you're more of a man. And then he's got his thoughts to, you know, the Navy and duty and Sophie and perhaps a quiet life in a cottage. Who knows? Where are these guys gonna go with this?

当杰克权衡这些时，史蒂文会怎样？杰克和史蒂文之间又会发生什么？

And and, you know, as as Jack sources susses all that out, you know, what what happens for Steven and, between Jack and Steven?

听起来下集我们还有很多内容可以讨论。你觉得呢？

Well, it sounds like that there's gonna be plenty more for us to talk about in the next episode. What do think?

我不知道。还有很多呢。下次再来点帕特里克·奥布莱恩的作品怎么样？

I don't know. It is plenty more. What do you say to a little bit more Patrick O'Brien next time?

全心全意地赞同。我们要再次感谢凯伦的参与。我们与她进行了非常愉快的对话。请关注她的社交媒体账号，也请关注我们的社交媒体。

With all my heart. So we want to say thank you once again to Karen for joining us. We had a fantastic conversation with her. Please look out for her on social media. Please look out for us on social media as well.

你们现在应该知道在哪里能找到我们了，在Facebook和Twitter上搜索“the lovers whole”就行。如果你喜欢这个播客，请订阅、推荐给朋友，并给我们留下评论。

You knew where to find us by now on Facebook and on Twitter. Just search for the lovers whole. If you're enjoying the podcast, please subscribe. Please tell your friends. Please leave us a review.

是为音频而生的。

Is made for audio.