PR专家安娜·克劳揭示公关真实性的重要真相

这要回归到品牌价值和真实叙事上。

It goes back to the brand value and the authentic storytelling.

嗯。要想公关有效，你必须具备诚信，真正相信你所传达的内容并付诸实践，即使它并不完美。

Mhmm. In order for PR to work, you have to have the integrity to actually believe what you're putting out there and to live it even if it's not perfect.

如今人们能更快识破虚假。从公关和品牌角度看，作为一个组织，要真诚坚守信仰，与客户建立联系，积极互动，以恰当方式讲述你的故事，保持存在感，并通过不同渠道找到与客户的价值共鸣和互动。你必须与时俱进，根据效果调整策略。

People can spot inauthenticity a lot quicker nowadays. From a PR and brand perspective, genuinely stand for what you believe in as an organization, connect with your customers, engage, and being able to tell your story in the right way and being able to be present and finding that value and engagement with your customers through different channels. You have to keep up with the times and shift your strategy based on what's working.

当今时代的颠覆几乎瞬息万变。你如何与那些连自身品牌价值和声音都不理解的人合作？

Disruption is almost instantaneous these days. How do you work with the people who don't understand their own brand value and voice?

你必须定期重新审视品牌。重要的是重新审视价值观、市场定位、持续提供的价值以及客户群体。

You have to revisit your brand on a regular basis. It's important to revisit your values, to revisit your market positioning, revisit your continuous offering, revisit your customers.

说到叙事，我们讨论的是领导者、律师和CEO们的现状。让我问你：如果三天就能永远改变你的领导方式呢？不是靠炒作，而是经过海豹突击队、CEO和其他高压领导者验证的系统，他们学会了先领导自己再领导他人。大多数领导力培训都聚焦于战略战术。

When it comes to storytelling, we're talking about What's going on leaders, lawyers, and CEOs? Let me ask you something. What if three days could change the way you lead forever? Not with hype, but with a proven system tested by Navy SEALs, CEOs, and other high stakes leaders who've learned to lead themselves before leading others. Most leadership training focuses on strategy and tactics.

但如果你的内在世界是混乱的，任何战略都救不了你。这就是我创建'无敌领导者挑战'的原因。这不是关于更多信息，而是关于蜕变。三天里，我不仅会给你工具，还有实时训练来掌控你的思维、情绪和使命。

But if your inner world is misaligned, no strategy is gonna save you. That's why I created the unbeatable leader challenge. It's not about more information. It's about transformation. In three days, I'll give you not only the tools, but the live training to master your mind, your emotions, and your mission.

加入数千名接受过我的挑战并获得实战验证框架的先行者行列，在人生与领导力的关键时刻解锁勇气、清晰与信念。立即在unbeatableleader.com抢占席位。再次重申，网址是unbeatableleader.com。是时候成为你命中注定的领袖了。呼呀。

Join the thousands who've taken my challenges and walked away with a battle tested framework to unlock courage, clarity, and conviction in the most demanding moments of life and leadership. Grab your spot now at unbeatableleader.com. Once again, that's unbeatableleader.com. It's time to become the leader that you were born to be. Hooeyah.

现在让我们回到节目。欢迎收听马克·迪万秀。非常激动能作为主持人马克·迪万与您相遇。如果你是热爱学习、愿意以目标为导向且刻意领导的管理者，那么你来对地方了。本节目致力于帮助你以勇气、韧性、觉知和本真来领导团队。

Now let's get back to the show. Welcome to the Mark Divine show. Super stoked to have your I'm host Mark Divine. If you're a leader who loves to learn and is willing to lead with purpose and on purpose, then you're in the right place. This show is dedicated to helping you lead with courage, resilience, awareness, and authenticity.

我特别激动今天能邀请到现场嘉宾安娜·克劳。安娜是商界风云人物，担任克劳公关集团CEO，三度入选《Inc.》5000强增长最快企业CEO榜单。

I'm super stoked to have my guest here, Anna Crowe, today in person. Anna's a bold face in business. She's the CEO of Crowe PR populations. She's a three time Inc. 5,000 fastest growing company CEO.

她是获奖企业家，被《商业期刊》评为年度CEO及商界女强人。最近刚完成TEDx演讲《移民思维的力量》。安娜的历程关乎无畏成长、目标驱动的领导力及挑战现状。她是畅销书《保持真实》作者，也是我初遇她时圣地亚哥企业家组织的前任主席。

She's an award winning entrepreneur. She was named by the Business Journal as CEO of the year and also as a woman who means business. She recently completed a TEDx talk or launched a TEDx talk on the immigrant on the power of the immigrant mindset. Anna's journey is about fearless growth, purpose driven leadership, and defying the status quo. She's a best selling author of Get Real and recent president of the Entrepreneur Organization in San Diego where I first met her.

准备好与安娜·克劳一起探讨如何更有目标性和真实性的深刻见解与果敢行动吧。感谢你今天参与节目。

So get ready for insights and bold action on how to become more purposeful and authentic with Anna Crowe. Thanks for joining me today.

非常感谢您，女士。

Thanks so much, ma'am.

很高兴再次见到你。

Stoked to see you again.

你也是。好久不见了。

You too. It's been a while.

确实。就像我们开始前聊的，这几年挺有意思的，对吧？对所有人都是。

It has. So, like we were talking before we started, it's been an interesting few years, hasn't it? Like, for everybody.

确实如此。

Sure has.

这事挺怪的。你知道，我偶尔会刷推特/X找乐子，看看舆论场有什么动静。结果看到个帖子说我们在2020年切换了时间线。虽然像是个有趣的阴谋论，但确实有点这种感觉，不是吗？

It's something weird. You know, I'm well, every once in a while, I scroll I scroll Twitter slash x just to have fun, you know, see what what's on the battleground. And I found this one thread saying that we shifted timelines in 2020. So I'm like, that was kind of fun little rabbit hole, but it does kinda feel like that, doesn't it?

确实是这样。

It sure yes.

就像2020年前是一种生活，突然一切都变了，现在变化得更快。简直像是为AI和未来要来的剧变做准备。谁知道呢

Like, was life before 2020, and all of a sudden, everything changed, and now it's changing faster. It's almost like that was preparing us for some radical transformation with AI and with what's coming. Who knows

到底怎么回事？是啊。我觉得很多公司都察觉到了，很多人正在经历巨大的转型和变化。速度似乎比以往更快。

what's going on? Yeah. I'm I think a lot of companies are seeing it, and a lot of people are going through so much transformation and change. Seems at a faster rate than before.

确实。作为一家公关代理机构，你们现在看到很多公司都在尝试重新定位、重塑品牌，寻找出路。自2020年以来，你们观察到的主要主题和趋势有哪些？

Definitely. So you're, as a PR agent agency, you see a lot of companies now kind of trying to reposition, rebrand, figure out a way through. What are the major themes and trends that you're seeing, like, since 2020?

是的。消费者面临的信息量太大了，无论是购买消费品还是专业服务，我们都被数据淹没。拿起手机，

Yeah. Well, there's so much information that comes at customers, at consumers, whether you're buying from consumer brands or you're buying a professional service, whatever it is. Right? We are inundated with data. We pick up our phone.

就有无数社交媒体、平台、新闻网站等等，环境非常嘈杂。所以很多公司都在思考如何保持相关性、不失去市场份额。甚至有些存在了五十年到一百年的品牌，如果没能及时跟上时代变化，也会消失。对吧？

There's a million different social networks, platforms, news sites, and all that stuff, and it's just really, really noisy. So a lot of companies are figuring out how to be relevant, stay relevant, not lose market share. You know, even we've seen brands that have been around for fifty to a hundred years that are have gone away. If they haven't changed with the times fast enough. Right?

同时我们也看到新兴品牌。过去人们常说建立声誉需要三十年，但现在新兴品牌能迅速占领市场并快速建立忠诚度。如今的商业环境截然不同，大家都在思考：如何在当下竞争？

And we see new brands. In the past, you'd say, oh, it takes thirty years to build your reputation. Well, we've seen up and coming brands really capture market share and build loyalty very quickly too. So it's just a very different landscape today, and I think that's what everyone's looking at. How do I compete today?

如何应对快速更迭的变化——无论是AI还是其他技术，也包括消费者获取信息方式的变革。

How do I get ahead with the changes and changes that are coming fast and furious, whether it is AI or other technology, but also the way customers are engaging with information.

这很有意思。文化趋势也在发生变化，对吧？

That's fascinating. You also have changes in cultural trends. Right?

嗯哼。

And Mhmm.

这确实极大地影响了，尤其是大公司如何展示自己。要知道，几年前如果你立场太右就会被抵制，现在看看Cracker Barrel的遭遇——连换个logo都可能引发抵制。

That are really affecting how, especially, bigger companies present themselves. You know, a few years ago, you got canceled if you were too far to the right, and now you get like, look what happened to Cracker Barrel. Like, you can get canceled if you just try to change your logo.

看看Amazing的例子。想想过去一个月有多少事件因人们的举动而疯传。从酷玩乐队事件，到前几天体育赛事中另一位CEO被迫下台。我们正处在一个信息触手可及、病毒式传播的时代——我们刚做了期专题，探讨流行文化中突然爆红并霸占头条的文化现象。

You can see even Amazing. Think about the last month of how many moments went viral of people doing something. Right? Whether we started with Coldplay scenario, right, to the other day, another at a sports event, you know, CEO had to step down. I mean, there's just a lot going on that we all have accessibility and virality, or we just did a piece on even just cultural relevance and moments that happen in popular culture that all of a sudden just take off and dominate the headlines.

你觉得人们是不是反应过度了？在我看来，人们现在对任何事都大惊小怪。天啊。因为这么多双眼睛盯着，他们必须有所行动。嗯。

Do you think that people are just overreacting? It seems to me that, you know, people just overreact to something. Oh my god. Because of all this all these eyeballs, they gotta do something. Mhmm.

其实他们本可以让这些情绪自然消散的。

When if they could just, like, let all that energy just kinda blow by.

问题在于...我不认为这是单一因素。这是个艰难的判断，还取决于世界局势和人们的注意力走向。嗯...如果...这确实很难理解。

It's there I don't think it's just one thing. Right? It's a tough call, and it depends on what else is happening in the world, where people's attention is going. Mhmm. If there I it's really hard to comprehend.

我真正明白的是：当今信息传播的速度和广度...嗯...能让企业瞬间崛起或崩塌——这对危机公关从业者倒是好事，因为总有维护声誉的机会。公关人员也做这类工作，这是很酷的一点。现在的危机不必像过去那样剑拔弩张。

What I do understand and what I know is that the way information spreads, how fast it spreads these days Mhmm. You can it can make or break a company really quickly, which is great for crisis communications professionals because there's always an opportunity to maintain the reputation to help protect the reputation. Right? And that is something that PR professionals do as well, and that's a very cool element. And a crisis today doesn't have to be as aggressive as in the past.

可能只是有人发了或没发某条内容...嗯...就酿成所谓的'危机'。所以...嗯...现在品牌方最关心的是：如何未雨绸缪，保持领先并自我保护

It could be someone posted something or didn't post something. Mhmm. And it becomes a quote, unquote crisis. So Mhmm. I think what's coming up with that top of mind for a lot of brands is how do we get ahead, stay ahead, and protect ourselves

嗯

Mhmm.

防范任何潜在风险。由于信息传播速度之快，如今的风险已大不相同。

From any potential risk. And the risks are just different today because of how fast information travels.

没错，这完全合理。那么在这种快节奏的VUCA环境中，你认为最有效的策略是什么？

Yeah. That makes total sense. So what are the strategies that you're finding are most effective in this kind of new fast paced VUCA environment?

我认为很大程度上要回归品牌价值本身，当然还有真实叙事。嗯哼，对吧？作为一个组织，要能做到言行一致。所以要坚持自身价值观，提供有吸引力的产品。

I think a lot of it goes back to the the brand value, of course, and the authentic storytelling. Mhmm. Right? Being able to do what you say and say what you do as an organization. So being true to your values, being having a compelling offering.

对吧？我们称之为三C原则：明确自身定位（Clear），具备吸引力（Compelling）...嗯哼...以及保持一致性（Consistent）。

Right? We call it the three c's, being clear in who you are, what you do, being compelling Mhmm. And being consistent.

嗯

Mhmm.

对吧？如今人们能更快识别虚假。嗯哼。所以从公关和品牌角度来看，能够真正代表组织信念、连接客户、实现互动等非常棒。关键是要以正确方式讲述故事，保持存在感，并通过多元渠道实现客户价值与互动。

Right? People can spot inauthenticity a lot quicker nowadays. Mhmm. So I think from a PR and brand perspective, it's very cool to be able to genuinely stand for what you believe in as an organization, connect with your customers, engage, and all that stuff. So being able to tell your story in the right way and being able to be present and finding that value and engagement with your customers through different channels.

你知道，这些年来我们总听到各种建议：可以做Facebook广告啦，可以做这个啦，可以做媒体发布会啦，可以在线创建广告啦等等。

You know, over the years, we've had, oh, you can do Facebook ads. Oh, you could do this. Oh, you could do press events. You could do this. You could do, you know, create ads online.

无论哪种方式，营销有太多不同面向，根本没有万能公式。你必须与时俱进，根据当下有效的方式调整策略。

Whatever it is, there are so many different facets, and there is no magic formula. You have to keep up with the times and shift your strategy based on what's working any given moment.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以我认为找到合适的合作伙伴至关重要。当然，在艰难的市场环境下招聘合适人才也很关键，虽然我知道这很有挑战性。但你真的需要专业人才，因为形势变化太快了。如果跟不上时代步伐，你可能会被淘汰。

So I I think having the right partners is crucial. Hiring the right people, of course, is crucial even though in a tough market. I understand that that's can be challenging. However, you do need expertise because things are moving so quickly. And if you're not going with the times at this rate, you may be left behind.

随时可能有新锐品牌进入市场，突然抢走你的市场份额。

And a new up and comer newcomer can come into the market and all of a sudden take your market share.

如今市场颠覆几乎瞬息万变。我想象如果和千禧一代创业团队合作，他们既有强烈的社会责任感，又清楚自己在做什么，那么建立他们的PR品牌真实性和声音虽然不容易，但总比像Cracker Barrel这样困惑'如何保持品牌相关性'的老牌企业要容易些。那么问题来了：你该如何与那些连自己品牌价值和声音都搞不清楚的人合作呢？

Disruption is almost instantaneous these days. I imagine that if you're working with, like, an a millennial entrepreneurial team and they really have a strong sense of, like, social impact and they're clear about why they're doing what they're doing, that developing their PR brand authenticity and voice would be not easy, but easier than if you're a company like Cracker Barrel who's like, how do we stay relevant? Right? And so how do you, there's a question in there somewhere, but how do you work with the people who don't understand their own brand value and voice?

你必须定期重新审视品牌定位。想想看，连德勤这样的公司都换过logo——我以前就在德勤工作。

You have to revisit your brand on a regular basis. Right? I mean, think about it. Companies changed their logos. I used to work at Deloitte.

那是我最早加入的公司之一。它最初叫德勤和Touche，后来是德勤和Tomassoon，再后来就变成了德勤。

That was one of my first companies. It used to be Deloitte and Touche, Deloitte and Tomassoon, then it was Deloitte.

我当时在Cooper's和Library的

I was at Cooper's and Library in the

第一季度。就是这样。

first quarter. There you go.

然后

And then

它普华永道。

it Pricewaterhouse.

德勤和Truce。是的。

Deloitte and Truce. Yes.

Touche。Touche。没错。

Touche. Touche. Yep.

嗯。在那之前是Touche Ross。对。还有Delay Haskins和Sells。

Mhmm. And before that, was Touche Ross. Yeah. And Delay Haskins and Sells.

还有普华永道。

And Price Waterhouse Cooper's.

最初是普华，后来与永道合并成为普华永道。

Price Waterhouse and then Price Waterhouse Cooper's when they merged.

没错。都是美好的回忆，黄金岁月。但回头看看，即便是那些提供鉴证咨询、税务等服务的知名机构——它们也会审视自己的标识。

Right. So Fun memories. Great times. And looking back, but think about even those brands who are in, you know, assurance and advisory services, taxation, all these other things. They look at their logos.

这些市值数十亿的全球巨头，将标识视为品牌要素的一部分。而这仅仅是logo而已，对吧？品牌的内涵远不止于此。所以我认为有必要重新审视企业价值观、市场定位、持续提供的服务以及客户群体。

They're multibillion dollar players global, and they look at examine their logos as part of the just the brand element. And that's just the logo. Right? But the brand stands for so many ways. So I think important to revisit your values, to revisit your market positioning, to revisit your continuous offering, to revisit your customers.

对吧？最近我和《商业内幕》聊到品牌跨界合作时就在探讨这个现象。现在这种案例比比皆是。比如我举了凯特·丝蓓这个奢侈品牌与亨氏联名推出番茄酱包造型限量手袋的例子。

Right? Think about it. I was recently, speaking to Business Insider about cross collaborations between brands. We're seeing that a lot a lot Right? More So I was discussing for instance, Kate Spade, which is a luxury designer brand, partners with Heinz to create a limited edition bag that looks like a Heinz ketchup bag.

你会想为什么要这么做？或者像前不久Urban Outfitters与Chipotle的联名。本质上都是为了吸引新客户，特别是千禧一代和Z世代，通过创意叙事实现互动。

You think, why would you do this? Right? Or, recently, you saw Urban Outfitters partner with Chipotle. And a lot of it is to attract new customers. You talk about the millennials or Gen Z and and engage and find creative narratives.

我刚才讲了很多关于如何做对以及品牌也可能犯错的内容。但归根结底，我认为许多企业，无论大小，都在寻找方法在竞争激烈的市场中脱颖而出，讲述真实反映自身的故事，同时可能触达新受众。

Now I talked a lot about, how to get it right and how do brands can get it wrong too. But at the end of the day, I think a lot of companies, big and small and medium, of course, are looking for ways to stand out in a crowded marketplace and tell stories that are authentic to them, but perhaps expose them to new audiences.

嗯，我理解品牌定位这些概念。但说到讲故事，我们其实是在讨论媒体传播对吧？对我来说，这意味着CEO、企业主和高管团队需要能够讲述正确的故事，并将个人特质融入企业品牌中。

Mhmm. So I get the brand positioning, all that. But when it comes to storytelling, we're talking about media. Right? And so what to me, what that means is the CEO, the owners, the executive teams being able to tell the story, the right story, and to weave their personal identity into the brand of the business somehow.

但同样重要的是，整个企业文化也需要共同讲述这个故事。

But also, the somehow the entire culture's gotta tell the story.

是的。

Yes.

那你能同时谈谈这两方面吗？比如，如何让企业文化在每次互动中传递故事？以及如何指导CEO（无论具体是谁）持续讲述故事，并通过行为强化它，避免那些可能导致

So can you talk about both of those? Like, how do we get, like, a culture expressing the story into every interaction? And how do you coach the CEO, whoever that is, to constantly be telling the story and reinforcing it with your behavior so you don't have those cold play moments that can take

整个公司垮台的尴尬时刻？这确实是个问题。

an entire company down? That was something.

不是吗

Wasn't that

对了，插一句，格温妮丝·帕特洛后来拍的那支代言广告有多酷？简直笑死人了。完全出乎意料。真的。

something? Also, sidebar, how cool was that commercial from Gwyneth Paltrow as a spokesperson after that came out? That's hilarious. That was unexpected. It was.

但也制造了不少话题。是啊。

But also created a lot of noise. Yeah.

天才之作。

Genius.

所以没错，显然存在外部沟通渠道对吧？比如媒体采访、写博客、上节目——

So, yes, the there's obviously the external communications. Right? You're talking about media speaking to press and writing blogs and going on

写书

Writing books

甚至。写书，上播客节目。

even. Writing books, going on podcasts. The

社会公益。对。

social cause. Yeah.

百分之百正确，对吧？还有内部沟通。对吧？那就是将这同样的三个C原则应用于内部，确保持续分享愿景、使命、价值观，以及我们为何要做这些事。

A 100%. Right? And there's also internal communications. Right? And and that's taking those same three c's in house and making sure that you continue to share the vision, the mission, the values, why we do what we do.

你知道，西蒙·斯涅克总是从'为什么'开始。这是关键要素——这家公司为何存在？真正激励整个组织。你销售的产品或服务未必需要是最鼓舞人心的。

You know, Simon Sinekza starts with why. That's a big element of, hey. Why why does this company exist? And and really inspiring the organization. And it doesn't have to be the most inspiring product that you're selling your service.

总有方法让人们相信自己所做的事，并雇佣那些对此深信不疑的人。还记得以前我们需要多少次接触点才能首次听到某个信息吗？

There are always ways when people to have people believe in what they do and hiring people who believe in what they do. It used to be remember how many touch points did it take for us to hear the message for the first time?

说七次，但实际可能远远不止。

Say seven, but it's probably way more than that.

现在要25到30次了。

25 to 30 now.

真的吗？是的。因为信息噪音太多了。

Is that right? Yes. Because of the noise.

因为信息噪音。而我们的注意力持续时间又那么有限。对吧？所以这很有趣。有时候我还是会感到困惑。

Because of the noise. And our attention span is just so much. Right? So it's fascinating. I sometimes I'll still, get confused.

我得说，我发誓这话我已经讲过十遍了。

I'll say, I know I I could've sworn I said this 10 times.

至少吧？我确定。

At least. Right? I'm sure.

或者我会跟某人说，我上周就告诉过你这件事。我们就是没法像以前那样记住信息了。

Or or so I'll be talking to somebody that I told you last week you did. We're just not retaining information in the

通过虚拟交流，信息留存率下降了30%。

same way. 30% less through virtual communications.

没错。

Yes.

是啊。因为你无法获取全部的身体语言信息。没有身体语言的辅助。

Yeah. Because you don't have all the you don't have all the body language. You don't have body language. You don't

也感受不到对方的能量。而且记忆方式也不同，对吧？比如我们同处一室时，或许能更好地记住彼此传递的信息，嗯。因为所处的氛围和共同营造的能量场。

have the energy of the person. And memory, I think, is different. Right? Like, we're sitting in a room together, I'm able to perhaps retain some of the information you're giving me or vice versa Mhmm. Through just the atmosphere that we're in and the energy we're creating.

嗯。在通话时，你还会收到各种通知提示。这确实不同。所以公司都在与我们对抗，而人类也都在与我们对抗。这其中有很多上升空间和好处。

Mhmm. And on a call, you're also getting ping notifications left and right. It's just different. So so companies are all up against us, whereas humans are all up against us. And there's a lot of upside and benefits from it.

我们可以更快地传递信息。不必花费数百万美元来推广品牌。有很多很棒的上升空间，而且人工智能也正在介入。所以，是的，关键在于保持一致性、清晰度、吸引力并不断强化。实际上，很大一部分工作是培训团队、教育团队，确保每个人传达的信息都一致。

We can get our messages out faster. We don't have to spend multimillion dollars to get the brand out there. There's a lot of cool upside, and then we've got AI coming in and and and. So, yes, it's about, again, being consistent, being clear, being compelling, and reinforcing. And, really, there is a lot about training the team and educating the team and, to make sure that the message is consistent from everybody.

对。你看，回到领导层这个话题，可以说他们一半的工作是对外沟通和讲述故事，另一半则是将故事内部传达，让每个人都有共同的愿景。然后这种文化就能通过他们的行动和互动体现出来，对吧？

Right. You know, the, so I'm going back to, like, the leader, the leadership team. Let's just say half of their job is external communications and telling the story and and the other half is like conveying the story internally so everyone has a shared vision. And then that culture is able to express through their actions and their interactions. Right?

那个愿景。问题之一是CEO对剧本版本感到自在。对吧？当镜头在拍摄时。嗯。

That vision. One of the problem is that the CEO is comfortable with the scripted version. Right? When the cameras are rolling. Mhmm.

但很多时候，当镜头没在拍摄时，他们会脱离剧本，而那时人们正在观察。

But a lot of times, they go off script when the cameras aren't rolling, but that's when people are watching.

对。

Right.

所以现在我们有点像是在讨论角色塑造，这正是我所做的。为了让公关有效，你必须具备诚信，真正相信你所传达的内容，并践行它，即使它并不完美。

And so now we're getting into kinda like character development, which is what I do. It's like in order for PR to work, you have to be you have to have the integrity to actually believe what you're putting out there and to live it even if it's not perfect.

这又回到了真实性的问题。

And that goes back to authenticity.

就是真实性。没错，百分之百。我觉得这就是关键。比如，你有没有因为客户缺乏真实性而解约过？是的。

Which is authenticity. Right. 100%. I think that would be the trick. Like, have you ever fired a client because they just Yes.

他们缺乏那种真实性吗？

Didn't have that authenticity?

他们...我们确实因为价值观不合而解约过客户。对，对。实际上，真实透明正是我们的核心价值观之一。

They, we fired clients for not aligning with our values. Yeah. Yeah. And that was and, actually, authenticity transparency is one of our values.

没错。

Right.

所以是的。

So yes.

这很有意思。这是教不来的。你知道，就像你可以牵马到水边，但不能强迫它喝水。嗯，就是

That's interesting. And that's something you can't teach. You know, you have to, like you can lead the horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Well, it's

就像我们之前讨论过的EOS系统。嗯，对吧？就是很多公司采用的企业运营系统，通常是中小型规模的企业。对吧？

like when we talked about EOS earlier. Mhmm. Right? Like, the entrepreneurial operating system that a lot of companies use, a lot of usually in the small to midsize range. Right?

其中很多要素包括设定愿景、确立价值观。嗯。你可以根据价值观来招聘和解雇人员。嗯。无论是客户还是团队，都要引入与价值观一致的人，这样大家才能同心协力。

And a lot of the elements include setting the vision, setting the values. Mhmm. And you can hire and fire by the values Mhmm. Whether it's your customers or your teams or whoever. And you bring in people who are aligned with the values because then you can all be on the same page.

同时要有勇气说，好吧，这行不通因为我们存在不一致。这不意味着我们都是坏人或在做坏事，只是存在不匹配。任何不匹配的情况都会耗费更长时间、消耗更多精力。

And also having the courage to say, okay. This doesn't work because we're there's misalignment. That doesn't mean we're all bad people or we're doing bad things. It's just that there's a misalignment. And anytime we have misalignment, it's just gonna take longer, exert more energy.

我们能做到。嗯。但我认为EOS框架中的这些要素确实很有帮助，它们也适用于大型组织，只是可能表现形式不同。

We can we can do it. Mhmm. But it I think those elements within from the EOS framework are really helpful, and they can work and do work for larger organizations too. They might just feel seem differently.

对。没错。不匹配就像能量泄漏。最终，你会耗尽所有能量——

Right. Yeah. Misalignment is just like leaking energy. Eventually, you leak enough energy that's

精疲力尽。

Tiring.

是啊。所有人都会疲惫不堪。我们现在进展如何？嗯，这很有意思。

Yeah. Everyone gets exhausted. Where do we stand today? Yeah. That's interesting.

我参加过一个由波·伊森主持的培训。听说过波吗？

I went to a training with a guy named Bo Eason. Heard of Bo?

我听说过这个名字。是的。

I've heard I've heard the name. Yeah.

他以前是NFL的跑卫，个子不高。他的兄弟们都很魁梧，但他是个小个子。他们都在NFL打过球。但他有着狮子般的心，所以他在自己的领域非常出色。

He's a former NFL, I think, running back, short guy. His brothers were huge, but he was a short one. They all played in the NFL. And, but he had just a heart of a lion. And so he was really good at what he did.

退役后，他意识到自己唯一擅长的就是在球场上冲撞别人。他不想像海军陆战队员总谈论行动经历，或像NFL球员总回忆辉煌岁月那样度过余生。于是他转型当演员，又不喜欢那个圈子，决定尝试剧作家。他写了个独角戏《窝里的小不点》，讲的是他自己的故事。

And when he got out, like, he realized that all he knew how to do was, like, mow people over on the field. And he's like, he didn't wanna spend the rest of his life like a like a Navy SEAL talking about his ops or an NFL player talking about the good old days. And so he reinvented himself to be an actor, didn't like that game, and so decided to try playwright. And he wrote a play. It's a one man play about himself, and it's called Runt to the Litter.

他最终在全国各地制作这部剧，并成功登上了百老汇舞台。一路上他结识了不少明星，还遇到几位导师——

And he actually ended up producing it all over the country and then made it made his way to, Broadway. And, along the way met a bunch of like stars and had some mentors that

这太不可思议了。

were That's incredible.

这是个很棒的故事。他学会了如何讲故事，并成为讲故事的能手。后来他把这个能力发展成事业，帮助领导者学会讲述自己的故事。很厉害对吧？

It's a really cool story. And so he learned to tell stories and he became really good at storytelling. And so then he parlayed that into a business to help leaders learn how to tell their story. Right? That's awesome.

是的。我之所以提到这个，是因为Bo是个很棒的人。我跟他击掌庆祝。关键信息之一（我完全赞同）是：如果你只炫耀自己多厉害、只讲成功故事，人们就不再信任你。所以他鼓励我们从‘糟糕透顶’的部分开始讲起。

Yeah. So the reason I bring that up, Bo's a great guy. I give him a high five. One of the key messages and I agree with this, I want to get your take on it is that, people don't trust you anymore if all you tell is the how cool I am and this is our successes side of the story. And so he was encouraging us to lead with the, oh, shit.

当时我深陷困境，被各种问题和压力淹没。差点在雪地摩托事故中丧命之类的。对吧？要先讲述创伤经历，以及你如何应对，来展现你作为人的一面。

There I was, knee deep and hanger neck pins and up to my neck and problems. Right? Almost died under the snowmobile accident, whatever. Right? Lead with the trauma and how you navigated that to to show that you're human.

你并不完美。标榜完美主义、表现得‘我们比你优越’的时代已经结束了。人们能看穿这种把戏。你是否提倡这种理念？因为对很多CEO来说这很难，尤其是老牌公司会想：等等，我们长期以来一直标榜从不犯错，现在该如何转变？

You're not perfect. The days of projecting perfectionism and, right, we're better than you are over. People see right through that shit. Are you, do you promote that type of because that's hard for a lot of CEOs, especially older companies like, wait, We've been projecting this error that we don't make any mistakes for a long time, but how do we change?

没错。我认为关键词是信任。对吧？我们如何建立信任？天啊，这里头学问太多了。

Yeah. I think, I mean, the keyword is trust. Right? How do we build trust? And I think, gosh, there's a lot in here.

其一是：我们作为人类是通过所有情感建立连接的，不只是快乐积极的口号。嗯。要建立更深层次的联系，我们必须展现好的、坏的、丑陋的，所有方面。关键在于如何讲述这个故事，才不会吓跑别人

One is, yes, we connect as humans through all the emotions, not just the happy and positive and rah rah. Mhmm. We in order for us to have deeper connections with each other, we have to see the the good, the bad, the ugly, everything. Right? And, the trick is figuring out how to tell that story in a way that doesn't scare a bunch of people

对。

Right.

而是要建立信任——‘嘿，我们也是人，我们在尽力而为，这就是你该选择我们的理由’。所以这确实是门艺术。你提到的品格特质很棒。

But instead creates trust that, hey, we're human and we're doing our best and here's why, you know, you might wanna engage with us. So, there's a definitely an art to it. Right. And the the great thing is you talk about character. Yes.

对于那些具备这种特质的领导者来说，你知道的，他们内心有着那种热忱——无论你称之为领导力核心还是什么，他们充满激情。他们渴望成就非凡，也经历过挫折或种种困难。这类人往往更容易与人建立联系，而那些因生活创伤而筑起心墙的人则可能更难做到。所以我认为这确实很有帮助，但天啊。

For leaders who have that, you know, at the heart, just the heart of a line or however you wanna call it, they're they're passionate. They're you know, wanna do amazing things, and they've suffered setbacks or whatnot. You know, it's they may be easier for them to relate to people, whereas for some people who may have a lot of defenses based on life's trauma may be more difficult. So it is, I think, helpful. But that gosh.

这涉及到培养这种特质的多种途径，让你能够以自己舒适的方式真实地展现自我。

That speaks to so many different ways of of developing that character and being able to bring yourself authentically to the table in your in the way that is comfortable for you.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而这确实会以某种形式降低风险。

And that does want to reduce risk in some way, shape, or form.

嗯。

Mhmm.

因为你不希望出现的情况是，比如在新冠疫情期间，所有人都陷入恐慌。

Because what you don't wanna say is, you know, during COVID, for instance, right, everybody's panicked.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对吧？公司现在是什么情况？可能有个领导会说，伙计们，我们明天可能就得关门了。

Right? The companies are what is going on? You can have a leader that says, guys, we might just have to close doors tomorrow.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这会引发什么样的恐慌？确实。他们很真实，也很直接，但这可能会造成大量恐慌。或者他们可能会说，我们其实也不知道明天会发生什么。

What kind of panic can that ensue? Yeah. They're they're being real. They're being direct, but that may create a lot of panic. Or they might say, we don't really know what's gonna happen tomorrow.

我们会想办法解决的，需要所有人齐心协力。

We're gonna figure it out. It's gonna be all hands on deck.

我们一起想办法。

We'll figure it out together.

不同的表达方式，同样的真诚。所以我们想要精炼这种表达，即使需要稍加修饰。

Different messaging, same authenticity. So there's there's also that messaging that we want to finesse even if it is, worked on a little bit.

我知道这不能简化为一个固定公式，但对于那些正在听的人，比如‘哦，没错，我确实需要调整我的表达方式’，你有什么具体步骤建议吗？

I know it can't be broken down into a simple formula, but do you have, like, for someone listening who's like, oh, yeah. You know what? I really need to kind of change up my story. What's what steps? You know?

因为我几乎是以英雄之旅的视角来看待。对吧？嗯。就像你说的，这就是你如何构建挑战、冒险或失败的方式。对吧？

Because I I look at almost like the hero's journey. Right? Mhmm. And like you said, that's how you how you frame up the challenge or the adventure or the the failure. Right?

关键在于要以能带来积极结果的方式来构建它。对吧？无论是积极的教训、学习还是成长。

It's really important to frame that in a way that is gonna lead to a positive outcome. Right? Or a positive lesson or positive learning or growth.

是的。

Yes.

而不是沉溺其中陷入故事细节。你不想纠缠于细枝末节，但你会说，是的，这事发生了。确实很糟。

And not dwell on and get into the story. You don't wanna get into the weeds of the story, but you're like, yeah. This happened. Yeah. It really sucked.

没错。但这就是我们的应对方式。

Yes. But this is what how we responded.

百分之百同意。

100%.

带我们梳理一下。你会如何指导他们

Walk us through that. How how you would coach them

确实存在多种可用的框架。当我们思考品牌时，品牌可以是高管、名人、大消费者或集团。

in a So there are definitely there are different frameworks that one can use. When we're thinking about brands, and a brand could be an executive, a brand could be a celebrity, a brand could be a big consumer, a conglomerate.

两者都是。对吧？是的。就连财富500强企业也开始聚焦个人，无论是代言人还是CEO。

It's both. Right? Yeah. Even the big Fortune 500 people are starting to double click on an individual, whether it's spokesperson or the CEO.

因为通常确实如此。

Because there's usually yeah.

那张脸。想要拥有那张脸。

The face. Wanna have that face.

因为连接往往由此产生。当然也存在许多公司让你疑惑'谁是领导者'，但有时这些公司有创始人故事。

Because that's where the connections happen. Right? Now there certainly are plenty of companies that exist where you go, who is the, leader in that? Right. But sometimes those have founder stories.

它们可能已经更换了四五任CEO，但仍保留着能与客户产生共鸣的创始人故事。所以讨论品牌时，我们常回归'为何存在'，其次是'如何运作'，最后才是'具体做什么'。

They may have they may be on their fourth or fifth CEO, but they have a founder story that their customers still resonate with. Right. So, I think, you know, when we're talking about brands, a lot of it, we go back to, the why. Why do we exist? We go followed by how do we do what we do, followed by what exactly do we do.

就像史蒂夫·乔布斯常说的，与其宣称'我们向世界销售电脑'，不如从本质出发——基于我们的初心和方式，我们究竟在做什么？这是一种思考框架。

So instead of saying and I think Steve Jobs used to talk about this. You know, we sell computers to the world instead of starting with that. Like, what are we really doing based on our why and our how? So that's one way of framing it. Right?

我认为今天，由于我们触手可及的人工智能技术，我们可以尝试的提示词实在太多了。对吧？你可以直接输入一堆不同的提示词，或者要求不同的提示词，然后启动这个过程，把信息呈现出来并发挥创意。归根结底，它必须真实反映你自己。不过，现在最棒的是我们有很多不同的工具可以利用。

I think today, because we have AI at our fingertips, there are so many prompts we could do. Right? So you could literally just go in and write a bunch of different prompts or ask for different prompts and just start the process and getting information out there and getting creative. At the end of the day, it has to be authentic to you. So, but but the cool thing is there are a lot of different tools nowadays that we can leverage.

我是说，有时候我就在午餐时和朋友做这个练习。我们让ChatGPT吐槽我们。我们说好啊。我说感兴趣。我说，来吧，吐槽我。

I mean, I'll sometimes I just did this exercise over lunch with some friends. We had Chad GBT roast us. We said yeah. I said interested. I said, go ahead and roast me.

然后这很有趣。对吧？它就像在说：'这是你过度表现的地方，这是你的缺点，还有这个那个。'然后你可以说：'很好。'

And then and it was funny. Right? And it was like, here's what you're overdoing. Here's why you're flawed and this and that. And then you could say, great.

再深入一点。再深入一点。因为当我们使用这些工具时，它也在更多地了解我们。所以我并不是建议品牌应该依赖这个，但作为个人，确实有很多很酷的独特方式可以开始输出信息，然后按照这个框架进行。

Go a little deeper. Go a little deeper. Because when we're using these tools, it's also learning a little bit of more about us. So I'm not suggesting that brands should go lean on this, but there are as an individual, there are really cool unique things you can do to just start getting the information out there and then go through that framework.

这很酷。既然你提到了AI，你如何利用AI并训练AI，让它比客户更了解他们自己？

That's cool. Now now that you've, kind of brought up AI, how are you using AI and training AI to, to understand the client better than they understand themselves?

是啊。这是个如此有趣的世界。对吧？这个领域太迷人了。每次我参加一个新的AI网络研讨会或研讨会，回家时总会带着17个新工具。

Yeah. It's, such a interesting world. Right? The space is so fascinating. And every time I go to a new AI, webinar or seminar, I come home with 17 more tools.

没错。我是说，有时候我会在周六上午专门研究工具。

Right. I mean, I'm creating a Saturday morning sometimes. I'll just Tools

每天都在不断涌现。

are popping up every day.

不，我在制作小视频。

No. I'm making little videos.

对，你

Right. You

知道吗，我拍照做成视频，然后为它创作故事情节，纯粹是当作创意消遣。所以你可以用多种方式运用它。对我们来说，显然要利用AI提升运营效率。对吧？如果能通过后台工具让我们工作更智能，那就太棒了。

know, I'm taking a photo and making into a video and then creating a storyline for it just for fun as a creative outlet, really. So you can use it in different ways. I think for us, you know, obviously, leveraging AI for operational efficiency. Right? If we can work smarter by leading us some tools behind the scenes, fantastic.

可能就是把一些手工操作变得更技术化。就像多年来任何运营系统所做的那样。从市场脱颖而出的角度来看，我们讨论SEO已经很多年了。对吧？谷歌SEO，谷歌搜索。

It could be just taking some of the manual things and making them more technological. Because they have it just like any operation operational system has done over the years. I think from a standpoint of, standing out in the marketplace, you know, there are one, we talked about SEO quite a bit for many years. Right? Google SEO, Google Search.

现在我们讨论的是AEO。这些AI模型如何获取我的信息？对公关专业人士来说很酷的是，很多信息来自赢得的媒体曝光。比如登上《福布斯》、NBC或行业刊物

Now we're talking about AEO. So how are these AI models getting my information? So, a lot of what's cool thing for PR professionals is a lot of it comes from earned media. So being in the Forbes or the NBC or whatever, the trade publications

它们会捕捉到这些信息。

They'll pick it up.

他们会接收到的。没错。我们的媒体。大部分内容来自我们的社交媒体。

They'll pick it up. Yep. Our media. A lot of it comes from our social media.

或者你们的网站。

Or your websites.

或者你们的网站。对吧？很多内容来自博客、内容创作这些渠道。所以我们可以利用这些工具进行高级研究。

Or your websites. Right? A lot of comes from the blogs, the content creation, all that stuff. So, we we can use these tools for high level research.

你需要手动把AI指向那些内容，还是它已经能通过算法快速抓取？

Do you have to point the AI to those, or does it already kind of scrape it real quickly just by its algorithm?

嗯，这要看情况。简而言之是这样。显然它会开始学习你的习惯，逐渐为你定制搜索结果。所以你可能需要开启无痕模式

Yeah. De depends. That's the short answer. I mean, obviously, it starts learning you, so it starts, kind of customizing some of the search results for you. So you might wanna wanna go incognito

嗯。

Mhmm.

然后重新做一些搜索，让它从零开始

And sort of do some new searches so that it goes from a, from

全新开始。没错。

Clean slate. Yeah.

全新开始。正是如此。但关键是要明白，作为一家公司如何进入那些搜索引擎。对吧？比如你是一家牙科诊所，我怎样才能成为南加州排名前五的牙科诊所？

Clean slate. Exactly. But that's one thing is just, understanding how to get into those search engines as a company. Right? How do we if someone's if you're a dentist office, how do I become top five dentist office in Southern California?

对吧？所有这些其他要素都必须为你服务，比如赢得的媒体、博客和其他内容，而且你必须成为专家。

Right? Well, all these other elements have to work for you, like earned media and blogs and other things, and you have to be an expert.

是数量越多越好，还是精准投放更重要？

Is it more is better, or is it the right placement that's better?

对。关键在于持续性。正确的投放位置和信息的连贯性也很重要。你不想说一百种不同的事情。对吧？

What Yeah. It's consistency. The right placements and consistency in messaging too. You don't wanna say a 100 different things. Right?

没错。你要确保你

Yeah. You wanna make sure that you

让整个漏斗沿着一条跑道运作。

have the funnel down one runway.

与SEO类似，AIO也有其独特的细微差别。这是一种方式。我认为在高层面上，你可以查看并使用这些工具来提问。比如，在这个行业中，我们应该向你提出哪些问题？

Similar with s similar as SEO. There's not there's just additional nuances with AIO. So that's one way. And I think at high level, you can take a look and you can use the tools to, also, you know, ask questions. Like, what questions should we be asking you for in this industry?

最大的痛点是什么？现在我们需要回头确保所有提取的统计数据都经过验证，并检查那些网站，因为显然也存在错误信息。但这确实是快速获取高层次信息的好方法，然后再深入挖掘。

What are some of the biggest pain points? Now we do want to go back and make sure that all the stats and data that is being pulled is validated and check those websites because there's also obviously misinformation that's available. But it is just such a fast way to get high level info before you wanna dive in a little deeper.

有人创建过能为你完成所有这些工作的AI代理吗？

Has anyone created an AI agent to do all that for you?

我相信是有的。这些确实存在。是的。

I'm sure there are. Those exist. Yes.

又一项从你工作或业务中被蚕食的部分。

Another chip away at your job at your business.

当然。现在有很多AI技术。想想看，突然之间冒出这么多AI专家，对吧？

Sure. There there's a lot of AI technology. Think about it. I mean, I'm so many people are AI experts, all of a sudden. Right?

是的。对他们来说很公平。他们在学习，这是他们日复一日在做的事情，而且技术也在变化。甚至一年前你对AI的了解，一年后可能就大不相同了。

Yeah. And and fair to them. They're learning, and this is what they're doing day in and day out, and it is changing. So even a year ago, what you knew about it may look different a year from now.

是的。那么围绕这个话题，它发生了哪些变化？到目前为止，它如何改变了你们的服务内容、工作方式以及业务？你们预见到哪些未来趋势？

Yeah. So How has it changed it was now around this topic. How has it changed your service offering, your job, your business so far, and what do you see coming?

我认为对我们来说，关键是确保我们所服务的客户能够取得这些AEO成果。对吧？SEO方面也是如此，要持续建立和维护声誉等各方面。同时还要能够进行审计，比如分析竞争对手的做法这类工作。这些都很有帮助。

I think for us is, you know, making sure that the customers we service are, getting into these, AEO results. Right? So same thing with SEO, making sure that they're we're continues to build, continuing to build reputation and all of those things. And also being able to do audits, you know, taking a look at what competitors are doing and things of that nature. So that's helpful.

我觉得在很多创意头脑风暴场景中——我特别喜欢用它来激发创意。就是不断产生点子，直接开始。想象一个头脑风暴的场景。

I think, a lot of times for creative brainstorms. I mean, I love using it for creative brainstorms. Just ideate. Just start. I mean, think about a brainstorm.

通常从一个点子开始，然后不断扩展延伸。所以设计能激发思维的创意提示或新颖角度就很有价值。方式多种多样——但我不建议人们直接说'我要用AI来写社交媒体内容'，这种做法不可取。

Usually starts with one idea, and then it grows and it grows and it grows. So coming up with creative prompts to just as thought stars is really good or creative angles is interesting. So there are different ways. I mean, what I don't encourage people to do is just say, oh, I'm gonna use AI to write my social content. Do not recommend that.

对吧？它能提供帮助吗？能进行一些编辑吗？当然可以。但它不是替代工具。

Right? Can it help? Can it make some edits? Absolutely. But that's not a replacement tool.

它本质上是一种辅助工具，用来补充人类的创造力，作为效率工具或必要时作为编辑工具使用，但只是补充。嗯。是的。展望未来，肯定会出现更多新技术，为包括我们在内的众多行业和组织提升效率。

It's really a tool that's to be used to complement the creative genius of a human and to use it as an efficient tool and perhaps an editing tool as needed, but it's not it's a complement. Mhmm. Yeah. And then moving forward, you know, in the future, I think there's gonna be a lot more technologies popping up that for sure will make, efficiencies for a lot of organizations, a lot of industries, including ours.

没错。我将其视为一种分层方案。现有工具能帮助人类提升效率，比如内容创作就是个典型案例。确实如此。

Yeah. I see it kind of as a layered approach. Right? So you have tools now that humans can use that make things more efficient or, you know, like content creation is a good example. I mean, it is.

我以前会花500美元甚至更多雇人设计一个logo。现在只要120美元就能得到10个logo方案，还能不断优化迭代。

I used to buy so hire hire someone to do a logo. It would cost 500 or more dollars. Now you can just, like, one twenty and you get, like, 10 logos, and you can iterate on those.

是啊。至少以前你会在餐巾纸背面画个草图。我创办这家公司时，真的就在信封背面画了个初稿，然后发给设计师。

Yeah. Or at least even before you'd draw one out on the back of the napkin. I know when I started this company, I literally drew it out on the back of an envelope. Right? And then send it to a designer.

问他们：'这个你能怎么发挥？'

Say, what can you do with this?

五个不同版本的设计。

Five versions of that.

你至少能看到你是

You can at least see You're

不用再操心这类事情了。虽然还是会做，但速度极快。现在更专注于帮客户思考、决策、保持敏捷，克服VUCA环境（易变、不确定、复杂、模糊）。

you're not doing that type of stuff. I mean, you still will do it, but it's like really quick. You're focusing more on thinking, helping helping your clients think and navigate and be agile, you know, overcome the the VUCA

没错。通过战略性的方式。

Yeah. Through strategic.

通过你的战略眼光和知识，这真的很酷。说到人工智能和分层理念，真正让我头疼的是那些独立的智能体——就连GPT本身也是一个智能体。

Through your strategic Yeah. Knowledge. That's really cool. When it comes to AI and this idea of layering though, this is the part that really kind of makes my brain hurt is then, you you have all these individual agents. So even the GPT is an agent.

嗯。但我们现在开始开发能够管理、领导或协调其他智能体工作的智能体了。

Mhmm. But then, you know, we're starting to develop agents that can manage, lead, or coordinate the effort of other agents.

对。

Right.

这就涉及到工作流程了。早期的人工智能应用可能只是用AI寻找最便宜的机票，它能抓取所有网站的数据。而智能体之上的智能体则负责找到最便宜的那张。

And, and so now we're getting into work process flow. Right? And so one, you know, AI application in the beginning might have been like to find the most cheapest airfares, you know, using an AI to do that. They can scrape all these websites and Mhmm. But the agent upon the agent is like find the cheapest one.

然后。

Then.

并预订机票。

And book the airfare.

对吧？没错。

Right? Right.

也许可以预订行程，你知道的，汽车之类的

And maybe book trail you know, the car And

发送感谢信。

send the thank you note.

转眼间，原本需要花费数小时、或需要助理或旅行代理完成的任务，现在完全由这个小AI机器人处理。然后你会有一个能管理多个这类机器人的代理，既处理工作也处理私人事务。对吧？这就是Sam Alton、Elon Elon他们正在做的方向。Elon将其设想在机器人里。

And next thing you know, like, there's an entire task that would have taken you hours or you would have an assistant or a travel agent just completely handled by this little AI bot. And then you're gonna have an agent that can manage a number of these bots that have both professional and or personal. Right? And so this is where, like, Sam Alton, Elon Elon are going. Elon sees it in a robot.

Santa Alton将其设想成一个小电子球体，放在你桌上的那种。Mark Zuckerberg则设想在你的眼镜里，那将成为AI助手，帮你处理所有那些琐事。

Santa Alton sees it in a little electronic orb, something you have on your table. Mark Zuckerberg sees it in your eyeglasses, which is gonna be the the AI assistant, which will handle all that shit for you.

对。那么你怎么看？还剩下什么？好吧，我有个问题想问你，因为你显然在心态突破和打破障碍方面做了大量工作。

Right. So what do you what do you think? What's left? Right. Well, here's my question for you, you know, because you, do so much work also with, obviously, mindset and, you know, breaking through barriers.

那会产生什么影响？你认为这对我们的思维有什么影响？

And what does that do? What do you think the impact is on our minds?

我们的思维。我知道。显然，这将深刻影响自我认知和作为人类的意义这类概念。它已经在改变大脑的运作方式，因为自主思考、深入调研、整合概念乃至表达想法的能动性。就像你我思考时——我不知道你怎样——我会画图、做思维导图、把想法写下来。

Our minds. I know. Well, they're obviously, gonna significantly impact, you know, the whole sense of self and what it means to be human and all that kind of thing. It's already affecting how the brain operates because the agency of having to think for yourself and do your own deep research and pull concepts together and even to express them. Know, like you and I, we when we're thinking, I don't know about you, but like I'll be drawing pictures and like a little mind map and I write things out.

那是濒临消亡的艺术。这种方式能刺激我们大脑神经通路的生长等等。本质上我们正在放弃对思维过程的主导权，将其外包给人工智能。嗯。

That's dying art. And that's a way that our brain like stimulates neural pathway growth and whatnot. And so a lot of that stuff is basically we're giving up our agency over the thinking processes. We're outsourcing it to AI. Mhmm.

如果你不用其他思维过程来替代它，比如创造力、直觉力以及深度联结的能力，那么你实际上是在将自己压缩到更狭窄的生存范围里——几乎是一种人工智能加持下的奴役状态（虽然我不愿用这个词）。或许这个词太重了，但我们的债务结构已经具备了这种特征，人人负债对吧？再加上税收和这种经济模式，你根本买不起房，现在大多数人要花掉全年收入甚至更多，就为了勉强维持生计。

So if you're not replacing that with some other thinking process, you know, like the ability to be creative and intuitive and, you know, deeply connecting, then you're you're basically cramming yourself down into a narrower range of existence, almost a form of kind of like AI enabled, I hate to use the term, but slavery. Maybe that's too strong of a term. We already have elements of that in terms of our, you know, the debt structure, everyone's indebted, Right? And you throw in taxes on top of that and an economic model where you really can't afford a house and you're always, you know, you're now you're spending more than half. Sometimes most people are spending their entire year of salary just to stay afloat.

所以他们并没有真正的自由。如果你没有行动自由，没有做想做的事或买想买的东西的自由，再剥夺思考自由，就非常接近克劳斯·施瓦布说的那种'人人都会幸福'的状态了。对吧？他们不会拥有任何东西。嗯。

So you they don't really have the freedom. So if you don't have the freedom of movement, don't have the freedom to do what you wanna do or to buy what you want, and then you take away the freedom of thinking, and you're getting pretty close to like what Claus Schwab said, like everyone's gonna be happy. Right? They're not gonna own anything. Mhmm.

但他们会很幸福。我们会给他们发支票，称之为全民基本收入。对吧？让他们沉浸在娱乐中。

But they're gonna be happy. We'll give them we'll give them a check. We'll call it universal basic income. Right? We'll plug them into entertainment.

但这就像《黑客帝国》里的设定。所有人都被各种干扰麻醉着。社交媒体、娱乐节目...这些元素其实都已经存在了。

But that's called, like, that's like the matrix. Yeah. Everyone's kind of anesthetized with distraction. Yeah. And social media and entertainment and and all the elements are practically there.

看着很有意思。这是

It's interesting to see. It's a

相当反乌托邦的

pretty dystopian

展望未来

view in

未来。

the future.

听起来很棒。

But Sounds great.

是啊。不，我们走吧。太棒了。我们正在抵制那种做法。

Yeah. No. Let's go. Lovely. We're pushing back against that.

对吧？我们正努力教育人们训练思维

Right? We're trying to educate people to train your mind

对。

Right.

没错。保持你的自主权。

Right. To maintain your agency.

前几天社交媒体上有个特别精准搞笑的视频，你知道吧，有个员工想进会议室，结果看到另一个同事。你看过这个吗？那人正坐在会议桌旁玩手机，这时有人敲门。于是这人对着手机说‘嘿，聊天对象，有人在敲门’。

Well, there was this, really accurately funny clip on social media the other day where, you know, there's an employee trying to come into a conference room and they see the other employee. Did you see this one? They're on their phone at a conference table, and someone is knocking. And so the person goes to their phone, hey, chat. Someone is knocking at the door.

什么

What do

我该怎么做？你觉得我该怎么做？她说‘你应该站起来开门打招呼’。对吧？那好吧。

I do? What do you think I should do? And she says, you should stand up, open the door, say hello. Right? And so, okay.

明白了。这是个

Got it. It's a

好话题。然后对面那个人

good topic. And then the person on the other

说‘好吧，看起来他们要站起来了。你觉得我该怎么做？’

side goes, okay. It looks like they're standing up. What do you think I should do?

天啊。然后它

Oh my god. And it

我想它之所以能迅速走红，很大程度上是因为其中的荒谬感——那种高层次的荒诞。

was I think it went pretty viral because of the absurdity Absurdity. At a high level.

没错。

Right.

对吧？不过你说得对。前几天我陪儿子做作业，是一道数学题，他直接在iPad上解题。而我却拿了张纸。

Right? But, but you're right. I was doing homework with my son the other day, and it was a math problem, and he's doing it on his lap, the iPad. Right? And I get a piece of paper.

我在纸上演算：比如苏茜要行驶20公里，我就写20公里；火车时速50英里，我就一步步推算。他一脸困惑地问：你在干嘛？

I'm writing out. You know, if Susie travels 20 kilometers, I'm like 20 kilometers. And then the train is going 50 miles an hour. I'm riding it out. He's like, what are you doing?

我说，

I'm like,

你什么意思？我在写解题步骤啊。对啊。

what do mean? I'm writing it. Solving the problem. Yeah.

他反问：为什么要写下来？什么？因为对我来说，只有写下来才能理解清楚。

He's like, why are you writing it? What? That's my in order for me to understand it, I have to write it down.

所以这就像个有趣的骗局，他却说不行。不行。我们就是要这么做

So it's just an interesting con he's like, no. No. We're just gonna put it

放进iPad里。也许吧。对我来说，光是这一点就足以让大脑运作方式完全不同了。

in the iPad. Maybe. So so it's to me, it's like the brain is already working so differently just with that alone.

没错。

Right.

再加上这些工具层层叠加，让我们更少思考。对吧？更少批判性思考。

And then layering in these tools that are helping us think less. Right? Think less critically.

对，就是

Right. It's just

会非常有意思。所以我真的很好奇也很感兴趣，你说得对。我们该用什么来替代它呢？

gonna be very interesting. So I I'm really curious and interested in you're right. How do we what what do we replace that with?

确实。

Right.

是心态、冥想、人际联系、临在感，还是自然？这些古老的技巧

Is it mindset, meditation, connection, presence, nature? Are all those, you know, older techniques

嗯。

Mhmm.

正变得越发

Becoming more

越发贴切，越发必要。

More germane, more necessary.

没错。

Right.

尽管这些年来我们一直在背离它们。

Even though we've been moving away from them for all these years.

确实。

Right.

现在我们强烈意识到这些是必要的。我的意思是，这正是我们领导力发展的核心理念。我们说，好吧，旧模式更像是横向发展，旨在让你在沟通、制定策略等方面更高效或更有效，但这并不一定会改变你是谁或你如何看待世界及与之互动的方式。

Now we feel an acute sense that they're necessary. I mean, that's that's exactly kind of what we lead with with our leadership development. We say, okay. The old model was like horizontal development in in sense that we're gonna make you more efficient or more effective at communications, at developing strategy, right, at whatever. But that doesn't necessarily change who you are or how you see the world or relate to it.

因此我们现在要做的是指出，这就像是，你知道的，对'罪'的定义。你不断重复相同行为却期待不同结果，这行不通。所以我们需要新方法——重新投入这些永恒的智慧传统实践中去。对吧？

And so what we're doing is saying, well, that's like, you know, the definition of sin. And you keep doing the same thing expecting different results, it's not gonna work. So we need something new. So the new is to reengage in these timeless wisdom tradition practices. Right?

呼吸练习、冥想、视觉化、亲近自然、静修，把这些融入日常生活。明白吗？这样你就有了阴阳平衡。西方文化现在严重失衡，就像深陷阳性能量100英里。

Breath work, meditation, visualization, time in nature, stillness, building into your day. Right? So you've got this yin and yang. So that was the whole we're so out of balance in the Western culture. Like, 100 miles deep in yang energy.

男性特质主导。对吧？完成任务。赢得比分。

Masculine. Right? Get it done. Put points on the board.

标签：奋斗文化。

Hashtag hustle culture.

没错。拼命工作加上人工智能的推波助澜。这就像给自恋者加了火箭燃料。如果不重新平衡，将导致环境更恶化、更多破坏。

Right. Hustle and and AI is firing it up. Right? It's like it's it's rocket fuel for narcissists. So it's gonna lead to more degradation in the environment, more destruction more if we don't rebalance it.

是的。

Yes.

带着那种伊恩般的能量，那种复苏。

With that Ian energy, that recovery.

非常积极的那种。

Very That positive.

没错。所以要以积极的角度看待，因为现在我们开始面临很多焦虑，就像我们正在讨论的。这如何改变我们？对我们的孩子有什么影响？是的。

Right. So the positive spin in it because now there's a there's an there's starting to be a lot of anxiety like that we're talking about. How's this changing us? How's it affecting our kids? Yes.

不太好。对吧。

Not good. Right.

对吧？

Right?

商业上有很多混乱，文化上也出现混乱。对吧？看看世界各地发生了什么。所以这正在唤醒人们。就像，等一下。

A lot of disruption in business, disruption in cultures. Right? Look what's going on around the world. So it's waking people up. Like, wait a minute.

也许我们在这里已经偏离轨道太远了。看看整个MAHA运动。对吧？你怎么能反对希望我们的孩子健康、吃真正的食物、不摄入农药和毒素这些常识性的要求呢？

Maybe we've gotten way off track here. Like, look at the whole MAHA movement. Right? How can you shake a stick at wanting kid our kids to be healthy and eat real food and not consume pesticides and, you know, toxins and all this? So that just makes common sense.

常识并不常见，对吧？所以现在正有一股相反的极端浪潮。

Common sense is uncommon. Right? So there's this wild pendulum swing going the other direction.

是啊，是啊，这很有趣。

Yeah. Yeah. It's fascinating.

确实如此。你是个移民。

It really is. You're an immigrant.

是的。

Yes.

好的。那么你是从哪里移民来的？

Okay. So where are you where'd you immigrate from?

东欧。

Eastern Europe.

对，波兰。

Right. Poland.

莫斯科。

Moscow.

你来自莫斯科？是啊。哦，酷。对吧？

You're from Moscow? Yeah. Oh, cool. Right?

对，很久以前的事了。是的。

Yep. Long time ago. Yeah.

我当时

I was

还是个青少年。

a teen.

我一点都听不出俄罗斯口音。给我

I don't hear a trace of Russian accent. Give me

一杯酒，你就能听出来了。

a glass of wine, you'll hear a trace.

伏特加？不，不要酒。都不要。

Vodka? No. No wine. No.

我成长过程中，十几岁时搬到了纽约布朗克斯区。嗯哼。然后，你知道，必须很快适应新环境。

While I grew up, I moved, as a teen to the Bronx, New York. Uh-huh. And, was you know, had to assimilate pretty quickly.

我猜也是。那是在1989年之后吗？当时

I bet. So was that after 1989 when

就是在1989年。

It was in in 1989.

你们当时必须离开莫斯科有什么原因吗？

And was there a reason you guys had to get out of Moscow?

其实是因为工作。因为工作？是的。当时是因为我父亲的工作。

It was actually for work. That's for work? Yeah. For my my dad's job at the time.

好的。

Okay.

是的。所以，当我们已经在美国时，你知道的，崩溃发生了，那边发生了所有事情。幸运的是，我们能够留下来。现在情况变得

Yeah. So, and then, when we were already in The US, the, you know, the collapse happened and all the things happened over there. And so, fortunately, we were, you know, were able to stay. And, yeah, now it gets

在美国的俄罗斯移民群体稍微多了一些。

a little bit more the Russian immigrant population in The United States.

这是个好问题。我不知道。我做TEDx演讲时可能应该研究一下。我当时研究了所有移民群体。

That's a great question. I don't know. I should have probably researched that when I did my TEDx. I looked at all the immigrants.

从你的角度看，俄罗斯人可能更多是代际差异。他们是否热衷于融入，成为美国文化的一部分？还是像我们最近看到的一些移民潮那样，他们不想融入？

Curious from your perspective, do the Russians it's probably more generational. Were they keen to assimilate, like, become part of the American culture? Or like, where we're seeing some of the recent wave of immigration, it's like, they don't want to assimilate.

我认为这要看情况。就像你说的，取决于世代，取决于我们谈论的年代，是现在、二十年后还是七八十年代。但当我谈论这个话题时，我真的发现我遇到了很多人。

I think it depends. I mean, it depends on the generation, like you said. Depends on the years we're talking about, you know, if it's now versus twenty years from now versus nineteen seventies or eighties. Right. But it is, I think when I talk about this topic, I really have found that there's so many people that I meet.

比如在我的EO论坛里，我们这个组织的小组中，有四个人是从其他国家搬来的。

I mean, in my EO forum, for instance, in a group that I, meet with for our organization, four of us have moved here from other countries.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我们之间有很多相似之处，对吧？有趣的是，85%的企业是由移民创办的。

And there's a lot of similarities that we share. Right? Fun fact that 85% of businesses are started by immigrants.

85%。是啊，这很有趣。我在想这个数据有多久的相关性，因为我觉得这可能是个更近期的趋势，比如，

85%. Yeah. That's inter I wonder, how long that's been germane because, again, I think that you're gonna find probably that's a more recent trend, like,

不到

less than

二十年。对，真有意思。

twenty years. Yeah. Fascinating.

所以这又回到了——我是说，背后有各种不同的原因

So but that's, again, goes back to I mean, there's different reasons

取决于你对移民的定义，因为确实。我们其他人其实也都是移民，只是

for depends on what you consider an immigrant because Yes. The rest of us, we're also immigrants just

百分之百。

100%.

世代相隔。我是说，

Generations removed. I mean,

我们来看看谷歌。对吧？对。移民的后代。是的。

we look about talk about Google. Right? Right. Son of immigrants. Yeah.

没错。所以，但我觉得这是个很酷的话题，当你发现关于如何变得足智多谋、适应或融入一种文化、学习一门语言的共性时，值得探讨。

Exactly. So, but it's a cool topic, I think, to explore when you do find commonalities around just being resourceful or adapting or assimilating to a culture, learning a language.

这就是你所谓的移民心态？对。对。对。还有语言。

And these are what you call the immigrant mindset? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And just Language.

让我详细说说这个。对。我认为语言会改变视角。对吧？不仅仅是像凯瑟琳和我经常讨论的那样。

Let me talk about double click on that. Yeah. I think language changes perspectives. Right? So not just like, Catherine and I have talked about this a lot.

比如，不仅仅是参与另一种文化，而是要学着像他们那样思考——虽然你永远无法真正做到，但你可以通过语言的使用方式窥见一二。每种语言都有不同的结构，意味着它以不同方式影响你的大脑。

Like, it's not just engaging in another culture, but if to learn to think like they do, which you'll never actually do, but you can begin to get a peek through how the language use. And every language has a different structure, meaning it's affecting your brain differently.

嗯。

Mhmm.

就像你掌握的语言越多，能在语言结构间建立的关联越多，对你采取和构建视角的能力影响就越大，这意味着你会成长。我一直认为语言和双语沉浸式教育应该成为每个教育体系的一部分。

And like if you the more languages you know and the more interrelationships you can allow between the language structures, then the greater effect that's gonna have on your ability to take perspective and make perspective, which means you're gonna grow. Like, I've always thought that language and dual immersion stuff should be part of every educational system.

百分百同意。科学已经证明这能重塑你的大脑结构。

A 100%. It actually scientifically proven to rewire your brain

没错。

Yep.

而且能让你成为更优秀的问题解决者。除了更好地理解文化、掌握众多不同事物外，说其他语言还能带来许多超棒的好处。不过，我原本希望我的孩子从一开始就能学习第二语言。嗯。但现在他们在学西班牙语。

And to, makes you better problem solvers. There are really cool elements of being able that come from speaking other languages in addition to having a better understanding of culture, having an understanding of so many different things. But, yeah, I was hopeful that, my kids would start learning the second language right out of the gate. Mhmm. But now they're in Spanish.

很棒。我们接受现状。但小时候我学西班牙语时也发现，因为已经会说两种语言，学起来容易多了。

Great. We'll take it. But, when I learned Spanish as a kid also, I found that it was so much easier because I was already speaking two languages.