如何打造成功心态：激情与毅力的科学

嘿，我是你的朋友梅尔，欢迎收听梅尔·罗宾斯播客。你是否曾看着那些极其成功的人，心想他们一定是天生拥有我永远无法拥有的东西？或者也许你审视自己的生活、工作、目标和人际关系，不断问自己，为什么我无法坚持下去？为什么我不够持之以恒？为什么我没有意志力？

Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. Have you ever looked at someone who's wildly successful and thought, they just must have been born with something I'm never gonna have? Or maybe you look at your own life, your job, your goals, your relationship, and you just keep asking yourself, why can't I stick with this? Why am I not consistent? Why do I not have willpower?

如果你曾有过这样的感觉，首先，你并不懒惰。你也没有问题。你只是缺少一样东西。你看，天赋并不能让人变得伟大。毅力才能。

Well, if you've ever felt like that, first of all, you're not lazy. You're not broken. You're just missing one thing. See, talent doesn't make people great. Grit does.

努力总能战胜天赋，尤其是当这种努力被一种不容你放弃的目标所驱动时。这就是今天我们要讨论的话题。我们将探讨高成就者的心态和坚持的心理学。我们将深入挖掘成功的真正科学。你会明白，这并非运气。

Hard work beats talent every time, especially when that work is driven by a purpose that won't let you quit. And that's what you and I are going to talk about today. We're going to talk about the mindset of high achievers and the psychology of perseverance. And we're going to dig into the real science of success. You're gonna learn it's not luck.

也不是智商。不是天生拥有某种罕见的天赋。它是一种更强大、更真实的东西。它就是毅力，那种对长期目标的热忱与坚持的结合，是在事情糟糕时依然坚持出现的心理韧性，是在无聊、困难或极度沮丧时依然继续前行的自信。而最好的消息是？

It's not IQ. It's not being born with some rare gift. It's something way more powerful and way more honest. It's about grit, that mix of passion and perseverance for your long term goals, the mental toughness to keep showing up when things suck, the self belief to keep going when it's boring or hard or it's discouraging as hell. And the best news?

毅力不是与生俱来的。它是你培养出来的。今天，你将从那位著书立说、进行研究、在常春藤盟校教授成功与毅力科学的女性那里获得工具。现在还不晚，但这取决于你。所以，如果你坐在那里告诉自己，我就是不适合成功，我没有自律，或者我已经失败太多次了，我仍然需要你听下去，因为你是错的。

Grit is not something you're born with. It's something you build. And today, you're going to get the tools from the woman who wrote the book, did the research, teaches the Ivy League course on the science of success and grit. It's not too late, but it is up to you. So if you're sitting there telling yourself, I'm just not cut out for success, I don't have the discipline, or I've just failed too many times, I need you to listen anyway because you're wrong.

如果你生活中有人有这种感觉，我希望你为他们而听。因为在我们结束之前，你将改变对天赋、对成功，尤其是对自己的看法。嘿，我是你的朋友梅尔，欢迎收听梅尔·罗宾斯播客。我非常高兴你在这里。我对今天的对话感到兴奋。

And if you have someone in your life who feels that way, I want you to listen for them. Because by the time you and I are done, you're going to think differently about talent, about success, and most importantly, about yourself. Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. I am so excited that you're here. I'm excited for the conversation today.

能和你在一起真是莫大的荣幸。我喜欢和你共度这段时光。如果你是新的听众，或者是因为有人与你分享了这一集而来到这里，那么，我想花点时间，亲自欢迎你加入梅尔·罗宾斯播客大家庭。我迫不及待地想让你认识安吉拉·达克沃斯博士，并了解成功背后的科学与秘密。

It is such an honor to be together. I love spending this time with you. And if you're a new listener, or you're here because someone shared this episode with you, well, I just wanted to take a moment and personally welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast family. I cannot wait for you to meet Doctor. Angela Duckworth and learn about the science and secrets of success.

安吉拉·达克沃斯博士是一位开创性的研究者、畅销书作者，也是人类表现领域的绝对权威。她是麦克阿瑟天才奖得主、宾夕法尼亚大学心理学教授、非营利组织品格实验室（Character Lab）的创始人兼CEO，该组织致力于推动品格发展的科学研究。她还是《纽约时报》畅销书排行榜第一名《坚毅：释放激情与坚持的力量》的作者。这本书已被翻译成40多种语言，改变了数百万人对成功的思考方式。

Doctor. Angela Duckworth is a pioneering researcher, a bestselling author, and a total powerhouse in the field of human performance. She is a MacArthur Genius Grant recipient, a professor of psychology at the University of Pennsylvania, founder and CEO of Character Lab, a nonprofit advancing the science of character development, and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, The Power of Passion and Perseverance. This is a book that's been translated into over 40 languages. It has changed the way that millions of people think about success.

她的TED演讲观看次数已超过3000万次。最令人惊叹的是，她关于毅力、自控力和高成就的研究被广泛应用于西点军校、NBA、NFL、财富500强公司、公立学校等各个领域。所以，如果你关心动力、心理韧性、专注力，或者想用生命创造有意义的事物，那么你来对地方了，你绝对会喜欢她今天要教给我们的一切。现在，请和我一起欢迎非凡的安吉拉·达克沃斯博士来到梅尔·罗宾斯播客。

Her TED Talk has been viewed over 30,000,000 times. And here's what's really cool. Her research on grit, self control, and high achievement is used everywhere, from West Point to the NBA to the NFL, Fortune 500 companies, public schools, and beyond. So if you care about motivation, mental toughness, focus, or building something meaningful with your life, you are in the right place and you're going to love absolutely everything she is going to teach you and me today. So please help me welcome the extraordinary doctor Angela Duckworth to the Mel Robbins podcast.

安吉拉·达克沃斯，谢谢，非常感谢你能来。见到你我太激动了。

Angela Duckworth, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for being here. I'm so excited to meet you.

梅尔，其实我可能比你还兴奋呢。不，我是真的非常激动。我觉得我们有着相似的使命——用点滴智慧让生活变得更美好。

Mel, I think I might be more excited than you, actually. No. I'm I'm really thrilled. I feel like we have a similar mission. Like, a little bit of wisdom, make your life a lot better.

是的，没错。你的研究和工作都对我的生活产生了巨大影响。我想这样开始我们的对话——

Yes. Yeah. Yes. Well, your research has had a huge impact on my life and your work has as well. So here's how I wanna start.

能否请你直接对正在收听的听众说几句话？他们特意抽出时间与你我共聚于此向你学习。如果他们认真践行你今天将要分享的一切，他们的生活或所关心之人的生活会发生怎样的改变？

Could you speak directly to the person who's listening right now who has found the time and made the time to spend it together with you and me today to learn from you? What could change about their life or the life of somebody that they care about if they take to heart everything that you're about to share with us today?

如果你能真心接纳我们通过科学发现的关于动力与成就的见解，你将获得一种可能——在自己的生活中窥见卓越的光芒，实现你力所能及的成就。

If you take to heart what we have discovered as a science about motivation and achievement, you will have one thing, which is the possibility of glimpsing excellence in your own life. To achieve what you are capable of achieving.

这可是个不小的承诺。确实如此。

That's a big promise. It is.

你知道，就像猎取大型猎物那样。是的，我真的深信不疑。我想当我刚开始做心理学家时，问题是，我是不是只会研究那一小部分自认为非常有野心的人群？但我很快发现，其实每个人都有野心。

You know, hunt the big game. Like, yeah. I I really truly believe it. I think that when I first started as a psychologist, the question was, you know, am I only gonna study this, like, tiny little sliver of the population who would self identify as super ambitious? And I discovered very quickly that everybody's ambitious.

我的意思是，谁不想尽可能做到最好呢？所以我认为，我研究的是所有人。

I mean, who doesn't want to be as great as they can be? So I study, I think, everyone.

我喜欢这个答案。我喜欢这个答案，因为我选择相信每个人都想做好。每个人都想茁壮成长，对吧？所以，达克沃斯博士，你的研究非常迷人，因为你发现所有高成就者都有一个共同点。

I love that answer. I love that answer because I choose to believe that everybody wants to do well. Everybody wants to thrive, you know? So Doctor. Dutworth, your research is so fascinating because you have discovered this thing that all high achievers have in common.

那是什么？

What is it?

高成就者的共同点，无论他们追求的是什么，都是对长期目标充满激情与毅力的特殊结合。用一个词来说，就是毅力。

The common denominator of high achievers, no matter what they're achieving, is this special combination of passion and perseverance for really long term goals. And in a word, it's grit.

那你是如何定义毅力的？

And how do you define grit?

正是如此。就是这两个部分，对吧？对长期目标的热情，比如热爱某件事并持续热爱它，而不是四处游荡，做这个做那个然后又换别的。而是要有一种像北极星那样的指引，你知道，多年如一日的专注，这就是热情的部分。

It's exactly that. It's these two parts. Right? Passion for long term goals, like loving something and staying in love with it, not kind of wandering off and doing, you know, something else and then something else again and then something else again. But having a a kind of north star sort of, you know, a devotion over years, that's the passion part.

而毅力部分呢，一部分是努力，对吧？一部分是练习你还不会的事情，还有一部分是韧性。所以毅力的一部分在于，在那些非常糟糕的日子里，你是否能重新站起来？

And then the perseverance part is, well, partly it's hard work. Right? Partly it's, you know, practicing what you can't yet do. And partly it's resilience. So part of perseverance is, you know, on the really bad days, do you, you know, do you get up again?

所以，如果你将对长期目标的热情与对长期目标的毅力结合起来，那么你就拥有了这种品质，我发现这是我研究过的每个领域中精英成就者的共同特质。

So so if you marry passion for long term goals with perseverance for long term goals, well, then you have this quality that I find to be the common denominator of elite achievers in every field that I've studied.

那么这是与生俱来的，还是任何人都可以培养的实际特质？

So is this just something you're born with, or is this an actual trait that anybody can develop?

我认为，任何心理学家告诉你的好东西，在一定程度上都是你可以控制的。我不是说基因不起作用，因为每个心理学家都会告诉你，这也是所有事情的一部分，包括毅力。但绝对地，你知道，我们的毅力程度很大程度上取决于我们所知道的、我们周围的人以及我们去的地方。

I think that absolutely anything that any psychologist tells you is a good thing to have is partly under your control. I am not saying there aren't genes that are at play because every psychologist will tell you that that's also part of the story for for everything and grit included. But but absolutely, you know, how gritty we are is very much a function of what we know, who we're around, and the places we go.

我喜欢你一上来就教了我们一些东西。我就知道你会。会有无数收获，但就这种你真正享受做的事情的感觉而言。即使是毅力的这一方面，你也有很多可以教我们的。即使我们中那些觉得自己还没找到方向、不确定人生该做什么的人，也有非常清晰的方法去弄清楚。

I love that you already taught us something right out of the gate. I knew you would. There's gonna be a bazillion takeaways, but just this sense that it's something that you actually really enjoy doing. And that even that aspect of grit is something that you have a lot to teach us about. That even those of us that feel like we haven't found our thing, that we're not quite sure what we should be doing with our lives, that it is there's very clear ways to figure it out.

这就是我们今天要学习的部分内容。你知道，在你的工作中，你也经常谈到，我确定我们会听到成长心态这个词。如果现在听的人从未听过这个词，或者他们要分享这期节目给没听过的人，那它是什么，为什么重要？

And that's part of the equation that we're gonna learn today. You know, also in your work, you talk a lot about, and I'm sure we're gonna hear the term growth mindset. You know, in case the person who's listening right now has never heard that term or they're gonna share this episode with somebody who's never heard that term, what is it and why does it matter?

成长心态是一种理论。它是一种你拥有的理论。你知道，你不必是哲学家或教授才能拥有理论，因为猜猜怎么着？我们所有人都有理论，你知道，关于人的理论。

Growth mindset is a theory. K. It's a it's a theory that you have. You know, you don't have to be a philosopher or professor to have a theory because guess what? All of us have theories, you know, theories about people.

成长心态是关于人类能力的理论。如果你有成长心态，你的理论是人类能力从根本上是可以改变的。如果你有固定心态，你则有不同的理论。这是一种信念，认为人类能力本质上是固定的，是你无法通过努力和经验改变的。

Growth mindset is a theory about human ability. If you have a growth mindset, your theory is that human ability fundamentally is changeable. If you have a fixed mindset, you have a different theory. It is a belief that fundamentally human ability is fixed. It is something that you can't change with effort and experience.

如果你从根本上相信人类能力可以改变和成长，你会看待失败，看待挫折，然后问自己，我能从这里学到什么？我怎样才能变得更聪明？然后你继续前进。如果你有固定心态，从根本上讲，你认为人性的本质是无法改变或成长的。那么你就会避免失败。

If you believe fundamentally that human ability can change and grow, you look at that failure, you look at that setback, and you say, what can I learn here? How can I get smarter? And then you move on. If you have a fixed mindset, fundamentally, you think that the nature of human nature is that you can't change or grow. Well, then you avoid failure.

你知道，你会把事情掩盖起来，实际上你整个生活都在收缩而不是扩展。

You, you know, shove things under the rug, and you live your whole life actually contracting rather than expanding.

哇。所以对于听众来说，因为我认为当你听到成长心态和固定心态时，我要么有这种固定的信念，认为我就是我，我无法改变任何事情。如果我理财很差，我永远都会很差，我不是一个擅长

Wow. So for the person listening because I think when you hear growth mindset and you hear fixed mindset, so I either have this fixed belief that I am who I am and there's nothing I can do to change. If I'm terrible with money, I'm always gonna I'm not be terrible a

数学的人。是的。你知道，就像把我藏在壁橱里，我是个糟糕的歌手。是的。或者不是一个天生的运动员。

math person. Yes. You know, you know, like hide me in the closet, I'm a terrible singer. Yes. Or an unnatural athlete.

是的，我不是一个天生的运动员。我在爱情上不幸运。是的。就像我新陈代谢慢一样。就像所有

Yeah, I'm not a natural athlete. I'm unlucky in love. Yeah. Like I have a slow metabolism. Like all

这些——我脾气很暴躁。我就是这样的人。

these- I have a hot temper. It's just who I am.

没错。是的。当你做出那种一概而论的陈述时，就会形成这种固定思维模式，让你觉得自己只能原地踏步。而你现在要表达的是，不不不不，你是有能力改变的。

Correct. Yeah. When you say those kinds of blanket statements, it develops this fixed mindset that you're just stuck as you are. And what you're here to say is, no, no, no, no. That you are capable of changing.

而能帮助你改变的很多方法，正是我们今天要讨论的、你在研究中发现的那些内容。但首先，你必须接受改变对你来说是可能的，即使当你回顾过去时可能找到很多证据说，根据我的生活经历，这对我来说不成立。那么，你想对那个认为‘我觉得我无法改变，已经太晚了’的人说些什么呢？

And a lot of what can help you change are the things that we're going to talk about today that you've discovered in your research. But first, you have to entertain the possibility that change is possible for you, even though you may have a lot of evidence when you look in the rearview mirror and say, well, based on my life history, that's not true for me. So what do you wanna say to that person who's like, well, don't think I can change, it's too late.

你会找到你所寻找的证据。这就是心理学家所说的自我实现预言，而心态正是这类东西。如果你寻找的是你无法改变的证据，如果你寻找的是你在爱情中不幸、总会突然发脾气的证据，相信我，你会找到那些证据。但如果你寻找的是你可以改变的证据，如果你寻找的是你可以成长的证据，毫无疑问，你也会找到那些证据。我认为，你所拥有的心态是一种自我实现预言这一观念，是理解如何从一种心态转向另一种心态的开端，也是我们与九年级学生分享的内容。

You can find the evidence that you look for. It's what psychologists call self fulfilling prophecy, and mindsets are absolutely this sort of thing. If you are looking for evidence that you can't change, if you are looking for evidence that you're unlucky in love, that you, you know, will always be flying off the handle, trust me, you will find that evidence. But if you are looking for evidence that you can change, if you're looking for evidence that you can grow, sure enough, you will also find that evidence. And I think this idea that the mindset that you have is a self fulfilling prophecy is the beginning of understanding how you might get out of one mindset and into another and something that we share with ninth graders.

但说实话，我认为无论你是九年级还是99岁，这都有用。当我们试图让人们接受人性是可塑的这一观念时，我们会向他们展示神经科学的证据，证明大脑在不断生长。事实上，无论你多大年纪，在你生命的任何一个阶段，你都在实实在在地创造新的脑细胞。更重要的是，你脑细胞之间、神经元之间的连接正在重塑。对吧？所以当我上大学时，我从1988年到1992年读大学。

But honestly, I think it's useful if you're in ninth grade or if you're 99 When we are trying to open a mind to this idea that human nature is malleable, we show them evidence from neuroscience that the brain is growing. In fact, there's not a era in your life, doesn't matter how old you are, where you're not literally creating new brain cells. And even more importantly, the connections between your brain cells, between your neurons are are remodeling. Right? So when I was in college, I went to college from 1988 to 1992.

我的专业是神经生物学。我当时学到的是，大脑在你上幼儿园时是一个非常非常不成熟的作品。好吧。也许在小学时还有一点可塑性。然后，你知道，青春期之后事情开始放缓。

My major was neurobiology. What I learned was that the brain is very, very much a work in progress when you are in preschool. Okay. And maybe a little bit in elementary school. And then, you know, things start to slow down after adolescence.

就像，现在你就是你，你就是你，你永远都是这样。那已经完全过时了。现在我们在神经生物学和神经科学中教导学生，可塑性才是关键。你知道，人类之所以如此特别，不是因为我们天生聪明。而是我们，你知道，在我们整个一生中变得越来越聪明。

Like, now you are who you are, who you are, who you will always be. That is completely outdated. Now we teach students in neurobiology and neuroscience that plasticity is the name of the game. You know, what makes human beings so special is not that we're born smart. It's just that we, you know, become smarter and smarter for you know, throughout our whole lives.

如果你是有意识地去做这件事。如果你是有意识的。对吧。我的意思是，你知道，我认为这是一种良性循环，你每天醒来都会问自己，我怎样才能在这方面变得更聪明？对吧？

If you're intentional about it. If you're intentional. Right. I mean, you know, I I think this kind of virtuous cycle where, you know, you wake up every day and you ask like, how can I get smarter about this? Right?

这难道不是一件很棒的事情吗？如果你，你知道，挑选你最喜欢的成功人士，这取决于你喜欢什么，一位三星米其林厨师、一位歌手、一位数学家，或者一位CEO，如果你开始注意他们如何谈论自己，他们总是把自己说成是终身学习者。他们总是说，比如微软的萨提亚·纳德拉，我不是无所不知，而是无所不学。我的意思是，这就在那里。它已经融入语言中，体现在他们对待生活的方式上，而且它是触手可及的。

Like, wouldn't that be an amazing thing? And if you if you sort of, you know, pick your favorite achiever, right, and it depends on what you love, you know, a three star Michelin chef or a singer or, you know, a mathematician or, you know, a CEO, if you start to notice how they speak of themselves, they always talk about themselves as as lifelong learners. They they say, you know, like Satya Nadella at Microsoft, I'm not a know it all, I'm a learn it all. I mean, it's it's there. It's baked into the language and it's it's in the way they approach life and it's accessible.

它真的面向所有

It's really to all

人。嗯，我想花一点时间，在你与我们共处、聆听达克沃斯教授讲话的此刻，仅仅为了你点击播放而赞美你。因为你选择找时间、花时间聆听一些你知道能从中学习、并可能让你生活变得更好的内容，这一事实向我证明了你是一位终身学习者。向我证明了你拥有能力去利用我们即将讨论的一切，并运用它来学习任何你想学的东西，或表现得更好，或更快乐，无论你的目标是什么。所以达克沃斯教授，在你的研究中，你研究精英 performers。

of us. Well, I just wanna take a minute as you're spending time with us and you're listening to Professor Duckworth right now, and just compliment you for hitting play. Because the fact that you chose to find time and spend time listening to something that you know you can learn from and that might make your life a little bit better proves to me that you are a lifelong learner. Proves to me that you have the capacity to tap into everything that we're about to talk about and leverage it to learn anything you want or to perform better or be happier, whatever it is that your goals are. So professor Duckworth, in your research, you study elite performers.

我的意思是，我们谈论的是西点军校候选人、拼字比赛决赛选手、运动员。关于这些高绩效者，有什么让你感到惊讶的吗？我认为

I mean, we're talking West Point candidates, spelling bee finalists, athletes. Was there anything about these high performers that surprised you? I think the

最让我惊讶的是，当我开始深入研究对长期目标拥有激情和毅力真正意味着什么时

thing that surprised me most was that when I began to dig into what it really meant to have passion and perseverance for long term goals

嗯。

Mhmm.

这并非我想象中的样子。我原以为会是那种激情四射的状态，结果却发现是持之以恒。所以并非那种总是拥有夸张个性、时刻保持11分满分状态的人——就像'天啊，我简直太棒了'那种感觉。即便是想象一位运动员也是如此。

It wasn't the way I thought it would look. I thought it would look like intensity, and it turned out to be consistency. So instead of somebody who has the kind of, you know, outsized personality always and the kind of like, oh my gosh, I'm 11 out of 10. This is amazing. And even imagine an athlete.

对吧？比如你去鲍勃·鲍曼那样的水上运动中心——他是迈克尔·菲尔普斯的教练，最近还指导莱昂·马尔尚。这两位都是有史以来最杰出的游泳运动员。如果你问鲍勃这样的教练：迈克尔·菲尔普斯或莱昂·马尔尚特别在哪里？

Right? Like, you you go down to, you know, some aquatic center like Bob Bowman, you know, the coach from Michael Phelps and more recently Leon Marchand. Right? So two of the best swimmers who's who have ever lived. And if you ask a coach like Bob, what is special about a Michael Phelps or a Leon Marchand?

他们会给你打10分满分吗？天啊，也许在训练中会给11分呢？我真想亲眼看看。对吧？

Do they give you a 10 out of 10? Oh my gosh. Maybe they give you 11 out of 10 at practice. I wanna watch. Right?

他说过，他们不会给我10分满分，而是给8分。但如果你积累了很多个8分，如果你从不缺席任何一个8分，如果你每天都来完成你的8分任务——哇，那你就能变得非常特别。所以当我开始研究那些坚韧不拔的人时，我原以为他们会在热情或努力程度上始终保持11分满分，但事实并非如此。就像鲍勃·鲍曼说的，我发现他们只是始终如一。

He has said, they don't give me a 10 out of 10. They give me eight out of 10. But if you rack up a lot of eight out of tens, if you don't miss any eight out of tens, if you come every day and you do your eight out of 10, wow, you can become really special. So when I began to study gritty individuals and I expected them to be 11 out of 10 on enthusiasm or 11 out of 10 on effort at all times, that's not what I found. Like Bob Bowman, I found that they are consistent.

他们不会休息日，也不会轻易放弃——虽然有时也会从马背上摔下来。顺便说一句，他们也会哭泣、会失望、会自我怀疑，但他们总会重新振作起来。我认为持之以恒才是坚韧精神的核心与灵魂。

They don't take days off and they don't fall well, they do fall off the horse sometimes. And by the way, they do cry and they get disappointed and they doubt themselves, but they get back on. And I think consistency is really the heart and soul of grit.

当你使用'持之以恒'这个词时，根据你刚才所说的，我现在理解的是：持之以恒不是指每天连续不断地做，而是指做的天数多于不做的天数，或者至少能在第二天继续坚持。

And when you use the word consistency, what I'm now hearing based on what you just said is that consistency is not doing it every day in a row. Consistency is doing it more days than not or at least doing it the day after.

所以你需要弄清楚

So you gotta figure out

什么好吧。

what okay.

好吧。所以，就像，迈克尔·菲尔普斯实际上显然花了十年时间，一年三百六十五天，圣诞节不休息，生日、新年或除夕也不休息。这很不寻常。我认为任何运动训练师都会告诉你，休息日是件好事。嗯。

Okay. So, like, Michael Phelps did actually spend apparently, like, ten years with three hundred sixty five days a year without taking a day off for Christmas, without taking a day off for his birthday or New Year's or New Year's Eve. That's unusual. And I think any athletic trainer would tell you that days off are a good thing. Mhmm.

所以我不想说七天全勤或三百六十五天全勤有什么神奇之处。但我们大多数人可以看看我们试图完成的项目，嗯哼。然后告诉自己，这就是一致性。也许是一周五天。我是说，以物理治疗为例，我经常做这个，因为我有脊柱侧弯和很多骨科问题。

So I don't wanna say that there's anything magic about seven out of seven or three sixty five out of three sixty five. But most of us can look at the project that we're trying to do Uh-huh. And and tell ourselves, like, this is what consistency is. Maybe it's five days a week. I mean, let's take physical therapy, something I do a lot of because I have scoliosis and I've got lots of orthopedic issues.

所以我得以体验行为改变，这是我作为科学家研究的领域，通过我自己的个人生活，努力去做到——所以我必须做我的物理治疗，有一些不同的练习我必须做，但不是所有练习都需要一周七天都做。有一个常规。无论你想做什么，无论一致性对你意味着什么，把它写下来并以此为目标。这就是目标。但我说的不是强度，意思不是说，我要去做我的物理治疗。

So I get to experience, you know, behavior change, which is what I study as a scientist through my own just like personal life and trying to get so so I have to do my physical therapy and there's like different exercises that I have to do, but not all of them are seven days a week exercises. There is a routine. Whatever it is that you want to do, whatever consistency means to you, write it down and aim for that. And that's what the goal is. But but what I mean by it not being intensity is it's not like, I'm go do my physical therapy.

我要以11分的强度去做（满分10分）。就像，我要拼命做到最好。我说，不。只需按照你的物理治疗师告诉你的方式去做你的物理治疗，然后第二天再按照治疗师说的做，然后再做，再做。这就是一致性。

I'm gonna do 11 out of 10 on intense. Like, I'm gonna kill it. I'm like, no. Just do your physical therapy the way your physical therapist said you should do it, and then do it again the next day as your physical therapist and then do it again and then do it again. That's consistency.

这段对话让我有点想起那句著名的Jay Z名言，我们做的最天才的事就是我们没有放弃。

This conversation reminds me a bit of that famous Jay Z quote, the genius thing we did is we didn't quit.

哦，我不知道这个。等等。什么？我没听过那句名言。

Oh, I didn't know that. Wait. What? I have not heard that quote.

是的。而且我确实相信这是...是的。你对抗...然后你开始谈论天赋，我想回到天赋这个话题，因为很多人认为成功取决于天赋。而你的研究确实证明了相反的观点，即存在另一个非常重要的因素。你能详细解释一下天赋与努力工作的区别吗？

Yes. And I I do really believe it's Yeah. You against And that you started talking about talent and I want to come back to talent because so many people believe that success comes down to talent. And your work really proves otherwise, that there's a different component that is really important. Can you unpack talent versus hard work?

我要先定义天赋这个词，因为我们以多种方式使用它。我认为即使我们手边没有字典，我们实际上是这样定义它的：天赋是你尝试某件事时的进步速度。如果你是一个很有天赋的人，你每练习一小时就会进步很多。如果你天赋稍逊，你每练习一小时只会进步一点点。

I'm going to define talent because it's this word, we use it in so many ways. And this is how I think we are really defining it even if we don't, you know, have a dictionary at our side. Talent is the rate at which you improve at something when you try. You're a really talented person, you improve a lot for every hour of practice. If you are a less talented person, you improve only a very little bit with every hour of practice.

我认为，承认我们在某些方面可能比其他人更有天赋并不可耻或可怕。我在心理学方面相当有天赋。当我32岁开始攻读博士学位时，我正怀着第二个女儿，还在给第一个女儿哺乳。当我阅读心理学文章时，当然是一无所知。

There is no shame or fear, I think, in acknowledging that we may be more talented at some things than others. I'm pretty talented at psychology. When I started my PhD at age 32, I was pregnant with my second daughter. I was still nursing the first. And when I would read a psychology article, I, you know, of course, knew nothing.

我不懂专业词汇，不知道从哪里开始。但当我阅读关于动机、信念、思维模式和实践的内容时，我的学习曲线相对陡峭地上升。但我在历史、政治和时事方面非常非常没有天赋，简直糟糕透了。

I didn't know the vocabulary. I didn't know where to start. But when I would read about motivation, about beliefs, about mindsets, about practice, I I ascended a learning curve relatively steeply. But I'm very, very untalented when it comes to history, when it comes to politics, current events. I am terrible.

我的意思是，我在沃顿商学院任教。每年我都不得不再次问我的学生：提醒我一下对冲基金是什么？就再告诉我一次。它和私募股权有什么区别？这次我会记下来。

I mean, I teach the Wharton School of Business. And every year, I have to ask my students again, like, remind me what a hedge fund is. Just one more time. Tell me what and how is it different from private equity? I'll write it down this time.

然后第二年又得再问一次。我在学习某些东西方面不太擅长，但在学习其他方面却非常敏捷。我认为这就是当我们说某人天生有天赋时的核心含义，对吧？比如某人在篮球、足球、数学或其他任何方面有天赋。

And then the next year, have to ask again. I'm not very good at learning some things, but I am very agile at learning others. And I think that's really the heart of what we mean when we say, like, somebody's innately talented. Right? That somebody's gifted at basketball or gifted at soccer or gifted at math or anything else.

也就是说这是你在某件事上的进步速度。

And that it's the rate you improve at something.

对我来说，这大概就是我们真正要表达的核心意思。

I think that's what it To me, that's what that's like the gist of what we really

嗯，这挺好的，因为我通常会把天赋定义为我自己所欠缺的东西。你懂我的意思吗？比如，我会把天赋看作是

Well, that's a nice thing because I normally like would define it as something deficient of me. You know what I'm saying? Like, I would see talent

某个人所具备的。

as somebody at.

嗯，我不确定。你知道，就像有人能走上舞台唱出完美的曲调，而相对于我来说，那个人确实可以

Well, I don't know. Like, you know, that somebody can step on a stage and sing a perfect tune and that in relation to me that somebody Yeah. Can

在你脑海中选出另一个人。

you choose somebody else in your head.

比如，天哪，我天生就是这样。当然，我后来进步了。

Like, oh my god, I'm born that way. Well, of course, I got better.

不过最伟大的天赋确实是这样的。

Greatest talents are though.

我？是的。我认为我最大的才能可能是能够接收海量信息并将其提炼成超级精华。

Me? Yeah. I think my greatest talent is probably taking a massive amount of information and distilling it down like that into something super And

并且能够有效传达。没错吧？对。我敢打赌你刚开始时并不懂现在这些知识，但我猜你学得很快。

and being able to communicate it. Yes. Right? Right. And I bet when you started, you didn't know everything you know now, but my guess is that you learned fast.

是的。我还很擅长烹饪。比如摆盘装饰之类的，虽然水平一般。但我意识到自己对才能的定义太狭隘了。我们常常看到别人在体育、艺术、音乐或商业领域才华横溢，就耸耸肩说：'哦，他们天生有这天赋'。

Yeah. I also am really talented at cooking. I'm talented at, like, arranging flour, like so so but I I realized I had a very limited definition of talent. And oftentimes I think that we look at other people that are wildly talented, whether it's in sports or it's in art or music or business. And we sort of shrug our shoulders and go, Oh, well, they were born with that gift and But I'm not.

'但我不行。是的，我永远做不到，所以干脆就不尝试了'。因此我很欣赏你的定义中强调了努力的重要性。

But I'm not. Yeah. And I could never be and therefore I'm just not gonna try. Yeah. And so I love that there is a relationship in your definition between also working.

因为你提到这关乎进步的速度。

Because you said it's about the rate of improving.

没错。就算你的进步速度不如预期，但也不算太差。你会想：'我不是这里最聪明的，也不是学得最快的'。

Yeah. Say your rate is not what you would love it to be, but it's not that bad. You're like, you know, I'm not the smartest kid in this room. Yeah. I'm not the fastest learner in this room.

但你可以像我所研究的众多女性男性一样说：'你绝对拼不过我。给我个机会，我会坚持到底'。哈佛大学有个纵向研究——我知道你采访过罗伯特·瓦尔丁格，广义上说也属于这类研究。

But you can say, as so many people that I have studied, so many women, so many men, you will not outwork me. Like, give me a chance. I am gonna stay on this treadmill. I mean, you know, very appropriately, the Harvard University study of there's this longitudinal study. I know you've had Robert Waldinger on its you know, broadly, it's part of that work.

他们，就像，真的把参与者放上去。他们都是男性。这是一项老研究。当时他们认定只有男性值得研究，但他们真的会把这些人放在跑步机上。他们称之为跑步机测试。

They, like, literally put their participants. They were all men. This was an old study. And at the time, they decided that only men were worthy of study, but they would literally put them on a treadmill. They called it the treadmill test.

然后他们，你知道，想下来就下来，但要看你能坚持多久。当然，他们会把速度调得很快。所以这非常困难，非常有挑战性。因此有很多人会说，好吧，我可能不是最有天赋的，但把我放在那个跑步机上，看看我能做什么，因为我不会放弃，因为我会更加努力。所以我确实认为存在这种区分，你知道，你不需要博士学位也能理解天赋——当你尝试时进步的速度——和努力之间的区别，也就是，你会尝试多努力、坚持多久？

And they, you know, get off when you want to, but see how long you can stay on. And then, of course, they make it really fast. And so it's really hard and it's really challenging. So there are a lot of people who are like, okay, I may not be the most talented, but put me on that treadmill and watch what I can do because I will not give up because I will try harder. So I do think there is this separation that that, you know, you don't have to have a PhD to understand between talent, you know, the rate at which you get better at something when you try and effort, which is okay, how hard and how long are you going to try?

那么你认为两者的比例是怎样的？当你看到一个成功的人，他既有天赋——即在某种程度上他们更擅长某事或天生对某事有倾向——又付出了努力和辛勤工作。你怎么看？

So what do you think the mix is? So when you look at somebody who's successful, who has both the talent, so there's a level to which they get better at something or they were naturally predisposed to something versus the effort and hard work put in. What do you think?

所以我认为努力算两次。当然，天赋算一次，但我认为努力算两次。对我来说，技能如果不加以运用就有点贫乏。对吧？所以你打算用你的技能做什么？

So I think effort counts twice. Sure, talent counts, but I think effort counts twice. To me, skill is kind of barren unless you apply it. Right? So what are you gonna do with your skill?

嗯，你需要努力来解锁你的技能，并将其转化为实际的成就。所以当你把我们全部写下来，如果你愿意，这背后有数学原理。但对我来说，当然，天赋是方程式的一部分。但努力算两次，因为第一，它解锁了天赋并将其转化为技能；第二，它解锁了技能并将其转化为实际的有形成就。

Well, you need effort to sort of unlock your skill and turn it into actual achievement. And so when you write us all down and if you want, there's like math behind it. But to me, of course, talent figures into the equation. But effort counts twice because one, it unlocks that talent and turns it into skill. And two, it unlocks that skill and turns it into actual tangible achievements.

达克沃斯博士，你说根据研究，有四个要素构成了毅力。我想一个一个地探讨它们。我们从第一个开始，即兴趣。这是什么意思？

Doctor Duckworth, you say that based on the research that there are four things that make up grit. And I wanna take them one by one and really unpack them. And let's start with the first one, which is interest. What does that mean?

所以当你观察那些在自己领域很出色的人时——实际上不一定非得是物理学家——这对运动员来说是真的，对音乐家、厨师，任何在自己领域变得出色的人都是如此。他们都有好奇心。对吧？

So when you look at people who are great at what they do, and it actually doesn't have to be that they're a, you know, a physicist. This is true of athletes. This is true of, you know, musicians, chefs, you know, anybody who becomes great at what they do. There is curiosity. Right?

他们的思绪会来到这个主题并想要停留于此，对吧？当你观察孩子时，无论你多大年纪，你都可以自问：这个思绪会走向何方？我的意思是，有些人会说，哦，我不够聪明或者我不算真正聪明。

Their mind comes to this subject and wants to stay there. Right? And when you look at children and you ask yourself whatever age you are, you could see, like, where is this mind going? Right? I mean, there are people who say, oh, I'm not intellectual or I'm not really smart.

当你开始谈论你真正关心的事情时，你就是个天才，因为那是你思绪的栖息地。所以这是第一个心理资产，它通常发生在童年时期——当然我们希望如此，这意味着你必须接触各种事物。我认为优秀的养育很大程度上在于注意到你的年轻人在思考什么。当我女儿露西成长时，我得告诉你，这孩子显然不是个勤奋的人。她很容易气馁。

When you start talking about something that you really care about, you are a genius because that is where your mind lives. So that is the first psychological asset, and it happens, you know, usually well, we hope in in childhood, meaning you do have to be exposed to things. I think great parenting, a lot of it is noticing what your young person is thinking about. When my daughter Lucy was growing up, I will tell you this child was not obviously a hard worker. She was easily discouraged.

她真的很讨厌做作业或练习她的中提琴。但当我从她那里拿回iPad时，所有打开的标签页都是烘焙视频，比如独角兽饼干和巧克力纸杯蛋糕。周一，露西就会告诉我她周六要烤什么。

She really hated doing homework or practicing her, you know, viola. But when I would get the iPad after she, you know, had, you know, run off with it, all of the tabs were open till baking videos. Right? Like unicorn cookies and like chocolate chocolate cupcakes. On Monday, Lucy would be telling me what she was gonna bake on Saturday.

她会从书架上取下我的烹饪书开始阅读，远比你通常做这种事情的时间要早。有一天我对她说：露西，我觉得你对烹饪很感兴趣。她看着我，好像我是从火星来的一样。她说：哦，你是什么意思？我说：你是什么意思？

She would pull my cookbooks off the shelf and start reading them, you know, well before you usually do that kind of thing. One day I said to her, was like, Lucy, I think you're interested in cooking. And she looked at me like I was, you know, from planet Mars. I was like, oh, what do you mean? I was like, what do you mean?

我是什么意思？所以我会说，毅力的第一阶段是兴趣，你甚至常常不知道自己感兴趣什么，直到一个路人或亲人说：嘿，顺便说一下，你花了很多时间思考某件事。所以这是第一个良好的心理资产。我不认为没有兴趣的种子就能培养出激情。我真心相信，尽管我们的智商可能不平等，尽管我们可能有不同的天赋，但当我们开始注意到思绪的栖息地，当我们开始注意到什么自发地吸引我们的注意力时，那就是发现兴趣的开始，这些兴趣可以使我们在所做的事情上成为某种天才。

What do I mean? So I will say the first stage of grit is interest, and you don't always even know that you're interested in something until a passerby or a loved one says, hey, by the way, you spend a lot of time thinking about x, y, or z. So that is the first psychological asset of good. I don't believe that you can grow passion without the seed of of interest. And I I genuinely believe that though we may not all be equal in IQ, though we may have different talents that that when we begin to notice where our mind lives, when we begin to notice what attracts our attention spontaneously, that is the beginning of discovering the interests that can make us something of a genius about what we do.

我很高兴我们从兴趣开始，因为如果你现在在听，但不太确定自己对什么感兴趣——我认为很多人都有这种经历。事实上，在你的书中，你谈到了这一点。你写了一个Reddit帖子。我想读一下，因为个人认为，如果你不认同这个人在Reddit上写的内容，那你一定认识正在经历这种情况的人。我30出头，完全不知道职业生涯该做什么。

And I'm so glad we're starting with interest because if you're listening right now and you're not really sure what you're interested in, which I think a lot of people have that experience. In fact, in your book, you address this. You write about a Reddit post. I wanna read this because I personally think if you don't relate to this, what this person wrote on Reddit, you are related to somebody who is living this right now. I'm in my early 30s and I have no idea what to do with myself career wise.

我一生中，一直是被告诉我很聪明、潜力很大的人之一。我对太多事情感兴趣，以至于我瘫痪到不敢尝试任何事。似乎每份工作都需要专业证书或资格，这需要长期的时间和金钱投入，然后才能尝试这份工作，这有点令人沮丧。我该怎么办？我不知道自己对什么感兴趣。

All my life, I've been one of those people who has been told how smart I am, how much potential I have. I'm interested in so much stuff that I'm paralyzed to try anything. It seems like every job requires a specialized certificate or designation that requires long term time and financial investment before you can even try the job, which is a bit of a drag. What do I do? I don't know what I'm interested in.

达克沃斯医生，我该怎么办？

Doctor Duckworth, what do I do?

我已经收集了，我不知道，数万人，也许10万人的数据。梅尔，我可以告诉你，当我研究对长期目标的热情和毅力时，我可以给你在我的问卷中关于热情的子分数，也就是这种随时间推移的兴趣一致性，但真正是一种持久的爱和毅力，也就是韧性。你知道，我想要练习。我想要做艰苦的工作。可靠的是，人们在毅力上的得分高于在热情上的得分。

I have collected data on, I don't know, tens of thousands, maybe a 100,000 people. I can tell you Mel that when I study passion and perseverance for long term goals, and I can give you a sub score on my questionnaire for passion, which is, you know, this consistency of interest over time, but really an abiding kind of love and perseverance, which is resilience. You know, I wanna do the practice. I wanna do the hard work. Reliably, people score higher in perseverance than they do for passion.

我认为发现和发展兴趣比听起来要困难得多。对吧？听起来困难的部分是工作。不。不。

I think discovering and developing interests is a lot harder than it sounds. Right? It sounds like the hard part is the work. No. No.

不。对大多数人来说，包括我自己，弄清楚方向才是真正折磨人的部分。所以关于兴趣，你应该知道的一件事是，它在某些方面是自愿的，但在某些方面是非自愿的。就像，你不能强迫自己对事物感兴趣。

No. Figuring out the direction is for most people, including myself, like the real torturous part. So one of the things that you should know about interests is that it is in some ways voluntary, but it is in some ways involuntary. Like, you cannot force yourself to be interested in things.

嗯，任何为人父母的人都知道你不能强迫，而且每个人都尝试过。嗯，任何一个人都曾有过父母试图强迫他们

Well, anyone who's a parent knows you can't force and and everyone try. Well, anyone who's a human being has has had a parent try to force them

绝对是的。

to Absolutely.

做点什么不

Do something not

感兴趣。孩子们弹钢琴拉小提琴。比如，他们中真的有很多人对此感兴趣吗？确实如此。非常少。

interested. Kids playing piano and violin. Like, many of them are actually interested in it? Like It's true. Very few.

对吧？这是真的。真的很傻。

Right? It's true. Really foolish.

但如果你不确定自己对什么感兴趣，应该问自己哪些问题呢？

But what questions should you ask yourself if you're not sure what you're interested in.

我想说点特别 provocative 的话。我觉得与其再问自己问题，不如直接去做点什么。对吧？就像我的普拉提老师说的，别想太多，直接去做。别想太多，直接去做。

I wanna say something really provocative. I think maybe instead of asking yourself another question, you should just go and do something. Right? Like my Pilates teacher would say, like, don't think it, just do it. Don't think it, just do it.

别再写日记了。别再问自己问题了。真的，直接出去做点什么。要知道，兴趣就像食物，你得尝过才知道喜不喜欢。

Stop writing in a journal. Stop asking yourself questions. Like, literally go out and do something. You know, interests are like food. You gotta taste it to know whether you like it or not.

在我看来，这是人们最常犯的错误。他们反复思考，还想和朋友讨论。好吧，这样做的好处有限。但兴趣的一个特点是，它们确实是从体验中产生的。

And that to me is the number one mistake I see people making. They, like, think about it, and they think about it, then they wanna talk to their friends about it. Okay. There's a limited amount of good that that does. But one of the things about interest is they they really do emerge from experience.

而且你无法预测。我记得教过三胞胎，三个可爱的男孩，都是很优秀的学生。像很多年轻人一样，他们在思考职业规划。但只需要一个暑期实习，坐在航站楼的办公桌后，他们就会意识到：我要疯了。为什么？

And you can't predict. I remember teaching these three triplets, these adorable boys, and they were all very fine students. And, you know, like so many young adults, they were, like, thinking about what they were wanting to do with their career. But all it took was one summer internship to be sitting behind a desk in a terminal and to realize, like, I am going to go crazy. Why?

因为我不喜欢坐这么久。嗯，你大概可以排除掉你刚实习过的那份工作，对吧？现在那个人成了健身教练，他怎么会知道呢？

Because I don't like sitting down this much. Well, you probably can rule out the job that you just interned for. Right? And now that person became like a fitness instructor. How would he know that?

再多的日记、反思，或是与朋友交谈，都无法替代一小时的亲身实践。所以在科学领域，关于兴趣和动机的科学中，我们称之为‘采样’。明白吗？所以在专攻成为作家、播客主持人或像我这样的心理学家之前，你必须广泛采样。专业化的悖论在于，它之前需要广泛的采样。

No amount of journaling, no amount of reflecting, and no amount of conversing with friends is going to substitute for one hour of actual experience. So in science, the science of interest, the science of motivation, we call this sampling. K. So before you specialize in being a an author or podcast host or a psychologist like me, you have to sample broadly. So the paradox of specialization is that it's preceded by a breadth of sampling.

所以在某种程度上，在你成为某一行的专家之前，你得尝试很多行当，对吧？对于孩子，你会看到，非常明智且当然非常优越的父母——因为这有时需要花钱——他们会让孩子轮番尝试各种追求，以便采样，品尝事物，如果不喜欢就放弃。我女儿露西，就是我满怀深情提到的那个，她小时候并不坚韧。我们让她尝试了芭蕾、陶艺，有一年还练了田径。

So before you become a jack of one trade, to some extent, you have to try a lot of trades, right? And so with children, what you see, you know, very wise and certainly very privileged parents, right, because it sometimes costs money to do this, you know, they're cycling their kids through a variety of pursuits so they can sample, so they can taste things and spit them out if they don't like them. You know, my daughter Lucy, the one who I mentioned with great fondness, was not, you know, gritty when she was growing up. We cycled her through ballet, through pottery. She did track one year.

她拉过中提琴。我是说，一样接一样。我们家有‘困难之事规则’。每个家庭都有自己的规矩。我们达克沃斯家就是用困难之事规则抚养孩子的。

She played the viola. I mean, one thing after the other. We had in our family the hard thing rule. Families have their rules. We, in the Duckworth family, raised our kids by the hard thing rule.

它有三部分，全都关乎兴趣和采样的哲学。第一部分是，它必须是需要你付出努力的困难之事，因为每个人都得做困难的事，对吧？所以你可以选择一件困难的事，但这件困难的事必须有刻意练习的元素，也就是说要有目标、努力和反馈。

It had three parts, and it was all really about the philosophy of interest and sampling. So the first part was, well, it has to be something that requires your hard thing because everyone has to do the hard thing. Right? So you can choose a hard thing, but the hard thing has to have an element of deliberate practice. So it has to have goals and, you know, effort and feedback.

明白吗？所以拉中提琴算数。但比如街角那家小工作室，你基本上就是吃金鱼饼干、闲逛，那就不算，因为没有目标、没有努力、没有反馈。好吧。

Okay? So Viola counted. Right? But, like, that little studio down the street where you basically just ate Goldfish crackers and, like, hung out, like, that that doesn't count because there are no goals, there's no effort, there's no feedback. Okay.

那是规则第一部分。第二部分是，你不准中途退出。所以当露西第一次参加田径比赛回家后，她走上看台说，妈妈，我不想再练田径了。我说，好吧，你不用再练田径了。

That was rule part one. The second part was you were not allowed to quit in the middle. So when Lucy came home from her very first track meet, she actually came up to the bleachers and she was like, mom, I don't wanna run track anymore. And I was like, okay. You don't have to run track anymore.

你只剩下八周了。所以我们不让孩子们中途放弃，我们就像说，你是达克沃斯家的人。我们开始的事情就要完成。但第三部分全是关于尝试的。第三部分说的是，除了你自己，没有人能替你选择困难的事情。

You only have eight more weeks to go. So we did not let our kids quit in the middle I love of that We're like, you are Duckworth. We finish what we begin. But the third part was all about sampling. The third part said that nobody gets to choose your hard thing but you.

我们从未为我们的两个女儿选择任何困难的事情。杰森和我说，你知道，生活是多选题。她她当时想学骑马，但我们说，我们没那么富有，而且我们不住在马附近。所以她们童年确实有些现实限制，但我们真的尽力让她们尝试尽可能多的事情。

And we never chose any of the hard things for our two daughters. Jason and I said, you know, life is a multiple choice. It's not quite film she she wanted to do horseback riding. And we're like, we are not that rich, we and don't live near horses. So there was some, you know, reality to the childhoods that they lived, but they we really tried to let them sample as many things as possible.

而且，你知道，我当时作为一名心理学家，正在攻读博士学位等等，我知道这是我们唯一能让这个女孩变得坚韧的希望，那就是我们必须找到她真正感兴趣的东西。

And, you know, I knew as a psychologist at the time, you know, getting my PhD and so forth, I knew that that was our only prayer for this girl to be gritty is that we absolutely had to find something that interested her.

如果你是正在听这个的成年人，并且意识到自己几十年来一直在自己不感兴趣的事情上苦苦挣扎。你有什么建议，关于如何从内心弄清楚并投身于你真正感兴趣的事情？因为我一直听到‘坚韧’这个词就立刻联想到受苦和苦苦挣扎。

If you're an adult listening to this and you're recognizing that you've spent decades of your life grinding away at things that you're not interested in. Is there advice that you have on how you internally figure out and lean into what you're actually authentically interested in. Because I always heard the word grit and immediately assume suffering and grinding Doing

做那些困难又糟糕的事情。

things that are hard and terrible.

是的。没错。相反，第一件事是从你真正感兴趣的事情开始，因为如果你对它感兴趣，你就会更投入其中。

Yes. Yeah. And instead, the first thing begins with things that you're actually interested in because if you're interested in it, you're gonna lean into it more.

我在宾夕法尼亚大学教一门课。那是费城的一所小型常春藤盟校。这门课叫‘坚韧实验室’，整个课程都叫坚韧实验室。课程的第一部分是关于心流状态、兴趣和价值观的。它叫做‘选择容易’。

When I teach a I teach a class at at University of Pennsylvania. It's a little Ivy League school in Philadelphia. And the first section of this class, which is called GritLab, the whole class is called GritLab. The first section of the course, it's on the flow state, it's on interests, it's on values. It's called choose easy.

我告诉我的学生们，在生活中你永远不会在某件事上变得伟大，如果这件事是你人生菜单上所有选项中最难的那个。选择最容易的那个。选择那个你愿意去思考的。选择你擅长的那个。就像，选择容易的。

And I tell my students, you will never be great in life at something where it is the hardest thing of all the things in the life menu that you could pick. Choose the easiest one. Choose the one that you wanna think about. Choose the one that you're good at. Like, choose easy.

然后课程的第二部分是努力奋斗。有时候我称之为聪明地工作。所以好吧。选择容易是主菜。是的。

And then the second part of the course is work hard. Sometimes I call it work smart. So fine. Choose easy is the entree. Yes.

还有第二部分是你必须去努力，但天哪。梅尔，你知道这一点。人们总是犯这个错误。他们没有考虑到自己的兴趣、精力和，你知道，要处于你最佳状态的地方。从那里开始。

There is a second section where you have to work, but my goodness. You're never you know this, Mel. Like, people make this mistake all the time. They don't take into account what their interests and their energy and their you know, be at a place where you are at your best. Start there.

为什么你认为我们会如此艰难地与自己作对？你明白我的意思吗？就像，因为

Why do you think we stack the deck so hard against ourselves? You know what I'm saying? Like, because

这真是个很好的问题。

That is such a good question.

嗯，因为我喜欢你在宾大开设一门关于毅力的课程。嗯。通过教人们选择那些容易上手的事情。

Well, because I love that you're starting a course at UPenn on grit Mhmm. By teaching people to choose something that comes easy.

是的。并不直观，对吧？不像，为什么它是直观的？你的...你的...这真是个很好的问题。

Yeah. Not intuitive. Right? Not like, why is it intuitive? Is your is your it's such good question.

我想我们可能把这两个阶段搞混了，对吧？就是说，有一个阶段是你正处于实践过程中。我的意思是，你已经写了，我也写了，还有什么比写作更难的吗？没有。

I I think perhaps we have confused, you know, the two stages. Right? So, you know, there is this stage in which you are in the middle of practice. I mean, you've written, I've written, is there anything harder than writing? No.

就像，你知道，显然你可以直接去YouTube上看烹饪节目。对吧？对我来说，那在当下会比真正打磨这段文字或构思章节结构要有趣得多。所以努力工作是卓越不可或缺的一部分。但我觉得我们搞混了，因为我们觉得，哦，我猜那就是全部了。

It's like, you know, obviously, you could just, you know, go and, like, watch a cooking show on YouTube. Right? Like, that would be to me a lot more fun in the moment than, like, really working on this paragraph or figuring out the structure of a of a chapter. So there is an element of hard work that is, you know, part and parcel of excellence. But I think we get confused because we're like, oh, I guess that's the whole thing.

不。不。不。首先要做的是选择容易的事。然后，你知道，尽你所能去努力。

No. No. No. First thing to do is choose easy. Then, you know, work as hard as you can.

但但我认为我们把它们混为一谈了。我认为这对我来说是最好的猜测。我的意思是，我没有任何数据支持，但只是我的本能或直觉，我们有点搞混了，因为对我们来说，它是一回事，但实际上它是两个阶段。

But but I think we we just push them together. I think that to me is my best guess. I mean, don't have any data on this, but it's just my my instinct that we or my intuition that we we we get a little confused because to, you know, to us, it's all one thing when it's really two stages.

我同意。我确实同意。我觉得这是一个非常有趣的

I agree. I actually agree. I think it's such an interest

研究一下。

study that.

嗯，这是一个非常有趣的见解，因为我认为可能有很多人不小心选错了东西。是的。然后花费

Well, it's a really interesting insight because I think there's probably a lot of people that chose the wrong thing by mistake. Yes. And then spend

几十年的痛苦。是的。我接到一个麦肯锡顾问的电话。我永远不会忘记这件事。天哪，梅尔。

decades suffering. Yes. I got a call from a McKinsey consultant. I'll never forget this. This is oh my gosh, Mel.

至少十年前，十五年前，可能是二十年前。这位来自旧金山的麦肯锡顾问给我打电话。我想那时候我接到的电话不多，就像他说的，我事业很成功。我得到了晋升。大家都觉得我很棒。

At least ten years ago, fifteen, could be twenty. This McKinsey consultant from San Francisco calls me. And I guess it was, you know, at a time where I wasn't getting that many calls, which was answered, you know, like he said, I am very successful. I've been promoted. Everybody thinks I'm great.

我不知道接下来该做什么。我们进行了这次对话，他后来在谈话中总结道，很明显他一生中从未基于什么对他容易、什么让他愉悦、什么给他能量、什么让他感觉活着来做决定。他说，我有一个原则：越痛苦越好，越艰难越好。

I I don't know what to do next. And we get into this conversation and it's very clear to me, as he basically summarizes later in the conversation, that he has never made a decision in his life based on what was easy for him, what was enjoyable for him, what gave him energy, what made him feel alive. He said, I had a rule. More suffering, better. Harder, better.

对吧？所以我告诉了他我对学生说的同样的话。我说，哦，分阶段。对。努力工作，但首先要选择容易的。

Right? And so I did tell him the same thing that I tell to my students. I'm like, oh, stages. Yeah. Work hard, but first choose easy.

我认为如果你把它作为一个研究项目来深入挖掘，你可能会追溯到孩子们感到的压力，即去做父母希望他们做的事。因为在当下顺从感觉更容易。而如果你一直只这么做，那就会成为默认模式。

I think if you were to dig into this as a research project, you would probably trace it back to the pressure that kids feel to do what their parents want them to do. Because conforming in the moment feels easier. And if that's all that you've ever done, then that becomes the default.

嗯，当然，很多人听说过，我知道你很了解内在动机与外在动机的区别，对吧？其中一个已经出现的研究成果，我认为这是一个非常重要的研究文献，至少可以追溯到五十年前。我们的动机演变为内在动机的阶段之一，是你内化周围他人动机的阶段。对吧？所以如果你的父母经常打网球，你可能也会开始打网球，在某个时候，它变成了你内在的一部分，然后你45岁了还想去打网球。

Well, there is, I'm sure, you know, many people have heard and I know you know a lot about this intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation distinction, right? And one of the things that you know has emerged, it's a really, I think it's a very important research literature, it goes back at least fifty years. One of the stages in which our motivation evolves to be intrinsic is is is a stage where you are internalizing the motivations of others around you. Right? So if you have parents who play a lot of tennis, you know, you may start playing tennis and at some point, it becomes internal to you and then you're 45 years old and you wanna go play tennis.

而这实际上是一件健康的事情，许多内在动机始于我们自身之外。

And and that is actually a healthy thing that many intrinsic motivations begin outside of us.

是的。

Yes.

但当它们卡在中间时，就叫做内摄作用，花哨的小玩意儿什么的。这只是术语。但当它卡住时，就像你父母想让你上医学院，但这并没有完全内化。嗯。而你其实从来不想上医学院。

But when they get stuck in between, it's called introjections, fancy little whatever. It's just jargon. But when it gets stuck, it's like your parents want you to go to medical school, but it doesn't become fully internalized. Mhmm. And you never really want to go to medical school.

然后它就卡在了'应该'阶段。就像是，我应该上医学院。

And it gets stuck at the should stage. It's like, I should go to medical school.

是的。

Yes.

我应该学有机化学。我应该去跑步。我应该减掉五磅。我应该吃沙拉。这不是一个好阶段，因为它有点像一只脚在内源驱动，一只脚在外源驱动，我们以一种极其疲惫、感觉与真实自我不符的方式被推着前进。

I should take organic chemistry. I should go for a run. I should lose five pounds. I should eat a salad. That is not a good stage, because it's kind of got one foot in intrinsic, one foot in extrinsic, and we're driven forward in a way that is extremely exhausting and feels untrue to our authentic selves.

我认为那是大多数人的状态。如果你是那种人，当你说'做更容易的选择'的那一刻

I think that's where most people are. If you're somebody who the second you said make the easier choice

是的。你发自内心地觉得，不行。

Yeah. You viscerally were like, no.

或者你会想，

Or you're like,

你怎么能做到那样？是啊，我没有那么多。

how do you even do that? Yeah. I don't have that much.

因为我一直在想那些能取悦我父母或伴侣的选择

Because I'm constantly thinking about the choice that would please my parents or that would please my partner

我的伴侣只是在说我就是

My partner's just saying what I'm

为了我的朋友。是啊。比如，你会不会说这到底是什么意思？因为我觉得那是一种完全不同的生活方式。

for my friends. Yeah. Like, is there anything that you would say about what does that even mean? Because I think that's a completely different way to go about life.

我的意思是，我只能从我的个人经历来分享，因为我发现这是我自己的挣扎，我不知道这是不是因为，你知道，我是由一位很棒的母亲抚养长大的，但她是一位中国母亲，她自己在中国出生和长大。嗯。她被教育要将自己所有的欲望和梦想都屈从于她的丈夫。有一天，她的母亲把手放在她的肩膀上，说，你已经准备好成为一个妻子了。当我从哈佛毕业那天，我毕业的那天，我母亲把手放在我的肩膀上，她说，我为你感到骄傲。

I mean, if I can only share from my personal experience because I found it a struggle of my own and I I don't know whether it's because, you know, I was raised by a wonderful mother, but a but a Chinese mother who herself was born and raised in China. Mhmm. And she was raised to submit all of her own desires and dreams to her husbands. Her mother laid her hands on her shoulders one day and said, you are ready to be a wife. And when I graduated from Harvard, the day of my graduation, my mother laid her hands on my shoulders and she said, I'm so proud of you.

你已经准备好成为一个妻子了。那么你知道，我后来做了什么？顺便说一下，我有成长型思维，我妈妈也是。那是三十三年前的事了，我们俩都成长了很多。嗯。

You are ready to be a wife. So what did I, you know, then progress to do? Well, by the way, I have a growth mindset and so does my mom. And that was now thirty three years ago, and we have both grown a lot. Mhmm.

我已经成长为一个认为如果我只为他人做事，就永远无法为那些人做得足够好的女人。我花了很长时间才明白这一点。我有一位名叫迪的心理治疗师，在不超过七天前的一次对话中，梅尔，所以这，你知道，是一个持续的旅程，或者说是我不断练习提醒自己，因为这在我心中根深蒂固。她说，安吉拉，我认为我们应该禁止使用‘应该’这个词。我说，你是什么意思？

I have developed into a woman who believes that if I only do things for other people, I will never do things well enough for those people. I took so long to learn this. I have a therapist named Dee and in a conversation that is not older than seven days, Mel, so this is, you know, a constant journey or it's a, you know, constant practice of mine to just try to remind myself because it goes so deep with me. She said, Angela, I think we should ban the word should. I said, what do you mean?

她说，我我认为每当我因为我在告诉她一个特定的，你知道，我即将承担的任务，而我使用了‘应该’这个词。我就像在说，我应该解决这个问题。然后她说，我想知道你是否能在不使用‘应该’这个词的情况下回答你为什么这样做的问题。所以，当然，我内心的学者跳了出来，我说，嗯，你知道，我们有所有这些‘应该’的情绪，比如羞耻和尴尬，是有原因的，迪，你知道吗？否则，我们就不会有道德和伦理。

She said, I I think whenever because I was telling her about a particular, you know, task that I was about to shoulder and I was using the word should. I was like, I should take care of this problem. And she said, I I wonder whether you can answer the question why you're doing that without the word should. So, of course, the academic in me comes out and I'm like, well, you know, we have all these should emotions like shame and embarrassment for a reason, Dee, you know? Otherwise, we wouldn't have morals and ethics.

就像，‘应该’是个好词。你会

Like, should is a good word. You'd be

真是个难搞的客户 她

a pain in the ass as a client She

认为我想得太多了。我想她就像，哦，是的，你又来了。在那次与迪的对话之后的几天里，当我开始思考时，我试图回答每一个我即将说‘嗯，因为我应该这样做’的问题。对吧？因为我应该去上普拉提课，你知道，因为我应该在回家的路上买杂货，因为我应该和这个学生谈一谈。

thinks I think too much. I think she's like, oh, yeah, there you go again. And and when I came to think about it over the next few days after that conversation with Dee, I tried to answer every question where I was about to say, well, because I should do it. Right? Because I should go to Pilates, you know, because I should go buy the groceries on the way home because I should have a conversation with this student.

我只是问了自己一个不同的问题。我说，我能不能不用这个词来谈论这件事？而且，你知道，令我惊讶的是，在几乎每一种情况下，话语都脱口而出。我想帮助这个年轻人。我在这位年轻人身上看到了我自己。

I just asked myself a different question. I said, can I can I can I talk about this without this word? And, you know, to my amazement, words came out in almost every case. I want to help this young person. I see myself in this young person.

我能看到这个人尚未看到的未来。‘我想要’与‘我应该’完全不同。我给迪写了一封邮件，不超过几天前，我想是三天前，我说，迪，我只是想让你知道。我认为你对‘应该’这个词的看法是对的。我不认为以那种方式为他人的欲望而活对任何人有益。

I can see a future that this person doesn't yet see. I want to is entirely different than I should. And I wrote Dee an email not more than a few day I think three days ago, I said, Dee, I just wanted to let you know. I think you're right about the word should. I don't think living our lives in service to other people's desires in that way does anybody a service.

顺便说一下，这并不是科学家所说的超越自我的目的，比如承担所有这些负担，并以一种让我们感到不真实的方式采纳他人的目标。所以，让我们看看在接下来的24小时里，我们能坚持多少分钟甚至多少小时不说‘应该’这个词。

That's not, by the way, what scientists mean by beyond the self purpose, like shouldering all of these, you know, burdens and adopting other people's goals in a way that feels inauthentic to ourselves. So, yeah, let's see how many minutes or hours we can go in our, you know, next twenty four hours without saying the word should even once.

我太喜欢这个了。你听到了吗？我想确保你听到了达克沃斯博士布置的任务。课堂开始了。

I love that. Did you hear that? I want to make sure you heard the assignment from Doctor. Duckworth. Class is in session.

你所说的，基本上颠覆了我对意志力、毅力和动力的所有认知。我非常高兴你能在这里。而且我认为现在是暂停一下的绝佳时机，因为我想让你有机会真正消化她所教授的内容。我也希望你能听听我们的赞助商信息。

What you're saying, it is basically flipping everything I thought I knew about willpower and grit and motivation on its head. I'm so glad that you're here. And I also think that this is the perfect time to take a quick pause because I wanna give you a chance to really let what she's teaching you sink in. I also want you to hear from our sponsors. And while you're listening to our amazing sponsors, share Doctor.

同时，请将达克沃斯博士的智慧分享给你关心的每一个人。别走开，因为我们还有更多来自达克沃斯教授令人惊叹的研究即将到来。所以请继续收听。欢迎回来。我是你的朋友梅尔。

Duckworth's wisdom with everybody that you care about. And don't go anywhere because we've got even more jaw dropping research from Professor Duckworth on its way. So stay with us. Welcome back. It's your friend Mel.

今天，你我无比荣幸能与世界著名的心理学家、宾夕法尼亚大学教授安吉拉·达克沃斯坐下来学习，她认为毅力是成功最重要的决定因素。尽管有些人天生就比别人多一点毅力，但你我可以根据她今天教我们的这四个因素在任何年龄培养它。让我们谈谈毅力的第二部分，即练习。

And today, you and I have the absolute honor of sitting down and learning from world renowned psychologist and professor at the University of Pennsylvania, Angela Duckworth, who says grit is the most important determinant of success. And though some people are born with a little more grit than others, you and I, we can develop it at any age based on these four factors she's teaching us about today. Let's talk about the second part of grit, which is practice.

现在，你当然感兴趣，但除此之外你还有第二个动机，那就是提高的欲望。所以通常要等到你进入青春期，有时是青春期后期，有时是成年早期，你才会以一种技能发展的方式想要在某方面做得更好。那时你通常需要一个教练。那时你需要——你听说过一万小时刻意练习吗？

Now, you're interested, of course, but you have a second motivation on top of that, and that is the desire to improve. So it's usually not until you are in adolescence, sometimes late adolescence, and sometimes early adulthood that you want to get better at something in a skill development kind of way. And so that's when you need usually a coach. That's when you need to do have you ever you've heard of ten thousand hours of deliberate practice?

我听说过。但对于不了解一万小时规则的听众，请简单解释一下。

I have. But for the person who's listening who doesn't know the ten thousand hour rule, just explain it back of the hand here.

我无法形容我有多兴奋能告诉你们关于刻意练习和一万小时法则，因为我觉得很多人都听说过它，但很少有人真正理解正确。那么，什么是一万小时法则呢？安德斯·埃里克森是一位真正伟大的认知科学家。他研究了那些处于巅峰状态的数独玩家。

I cannot tell you how excited I am to tell you about deliberate practice, the ten thousand hour rule, because I think so many people have heard it. Very few people have heard it correctly. So what is the ten thousand hour rule? Anders Ericsson was a truly great cognitive scientist. He studied Sudoku players who were at the top of their game.

他研究了国际象棋大师、特级大师棋手。他研究了首席芭蕾舞演员。他研究了世界杯足球运动员。他是研究世界级专家的世界级专家。在他早期的一项研究中，他发现德国一所音乐学院里最优秀的小提琴手大约进行了1万小时某种高质量练习，他后来称之为刻意练习。

He studied chess masters, grand master chess players. He studied prima ballerinas. He studied World Cup soccer players. He was the world expert on world experts. And in one of his early studies, he found that the very best violinist at a music academy in Germany had about 10,000 of a certain high quality practice that he later called deliberate practice.

音乐学院里的下一组学生，他们没有那么优秀。他们大概练习了七千五百小时左右。对吧？然后可能再下一组是五千小时左右。练习的量存在差异，于是这就成了一个非常流行的说法：如果你想在某件事上变得出色，就必须进行一万小时的练习。

The next group at this music academy, they weren't as good. They had like something like, you know, seventy five hundred hours. Right? And then maybe the next group was like five thousand hours. There were differences in the quantity of practice, And it became this very popular term that you got to do ten thousand hours of practice if you want to become great at what you do.

但安德斯——他五年前去世，直到生命的最后一天——都希望世界知道，不仅仅是练习的量，更重要的是那些音乐家所做练习的质量。不仅仅是数量，更是质量。所以当我谈到毅力典范演变的第二阶段时——顺便说一下，安德斯和我一起做了很多研究——我们发现，这种高质量练习是你有一个目标，通常是你薄弱的地方，你全神贯注地努力去提高它。

But Anders, who passed away five years ago to his dying day, wanted the world to know that it's not just the quantity of practice. It was the quality of what those musicians were doing. Not just quantity, but quality. So when I talk about this second stage in the evolution of paragon of grit And by the way, Anders and I did a lot of research together. What we found was that this kind of high quality practice where you have a goal, usually something that you're weak at, You completely concentrate on trying to get better at it.

你心里有一个你想做到的样子，但你还做不到。然后你非常努力地去尝试，无论是精神上还是身体上，取决于你在尝试做什么。然后你会得到关于你做得好和可能做得不够好的反馈——这就是你需要的那部分，那部分让人难受。那是困难的部分。对吧？

You have like a mental picture of what you wanna do, but you can't do it yet. And then you try really hard mentally or physically depending on what you are trying to do. And then you get feedback on what you did well, maybe what you didn't do quite as well as That's you need the that's the that's the that's the part that stings. That's the hard part. Right?

你知道吗？是的。就像，真的很难，因为你的自尊心在，你知道，尖叫。然后你一遍又一遍地重复做。那就是高质量的练习。

You know? Yes. Like, the really hard because your ego is, you know, screaming. And then you do it over and over again. That's the high quality practice.

当你审视我们很多人所做的数千小时练习时，包括我自己。就像，当我遇到安德斯时，我说，等等。我不确定我是否相信这个，因为我一直在跑步，你知道，如果我统计我一辈子慢跑的所有小时数，我觉得我应该是尤塞恩·博尔特。然后他说，嗯，你有目标吗？我说，从来没有。

When when you look at the thousands of hours of practice that a lot of us do, including myself. Like, when I met Anders, I was like, wait. I don't know if I believe this because I've been running like, you know, if I tabulate all the hours I had jogged in my life, I was like, I should be Usain Bolt. And he was like, well, do you have a goal? And I was like, never.

他当时问我，你是以全神贯注的状态练习的吗？比如我跑步的时候？不是，我在听播客。然后他又问，在你下次跑步前，你会得到关于需要改进之处的即时反馈吗？

He was like, do you practice with complete effort and concentration? Like, I'm like, when I'm running? No. I'm listening to podcasts. And then he said, do you get immediate feedback on things that you could improve before you go out for your next run?

我当时就想，开什么玩笑？谁会给我这种反馈？所以我当时进行的是低质量练习。所谓一万小时法则就是：如果你想在某件事上变得出色，就必须投入数千小时——不一定正好是一万，但确实是数千小时——你能做到的最高质量的练习。

And I was like, are you kidding? Who would give me that? So I was doing low quality practice. So the ten thousand hour rule is this. If you wanna become great at what you do, you have to do thousands of hours, maybe not the exact number ten thousand, but yes, thousands of hours of the highest quality practice that you can do.

我和安德烈斯共同发现的是，当你对长期目标充满激情并坚持不懈时，你正是那种会投入更多高质量练习时间的人。

And what Andres and I found together is that when you are really passionate and persevering about a long term goal, you are the sort of person who puts in more of those high quality hours.

听你这么说，似乎有三个因素决定了高质量时间的构成。你用刻意练习这个词，指的是带着明确目标进行训练

And in listening to you, it also sounds like there are three things that determine what makes up high quality hours. And in the words you use the words deliberate practice, that you're doing the thing with a goal in mind

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

你要全力以赴，并且在结束后获得即时反馈。

That you are giving it your all, and that you get immediate feedback afterwards.

完全正确。我的意思是，这很简单不是吗？梅尔，这根本不需要额外成本。

Exactly right. I mean, it's so simple, isn't it? Like, Mel, it's free.

说实话，听起来很痛苦。

It sounds painful, honestly.

好吧，确实痛苦，确实痛苦。但这没有专利。比如，你不需要付钱给任何人。

Okay. It's painful. It's painful. But there's no patent. Like, you don't have to pay anybody.

对吧？我的意思是，

Right? I mean,

我在开玩笑。

I'm joking.

但心理上代价高昂，代价高昂，但你知道，经济上对所有人都是可及的

But I psychologically costly, costly, but, you know, it's financially available to all

我们所有人。嗯，我喜欢你如此坦诚，你基本上说，我已经跑步了一万个小时，为什么我没能赢得奥运会？你也承认，嗯，我其实没有目标。我只是在做这件事。也许

of us. Well, I love how honest you are when you basically said, I've basically jogged for ten thousand hours, so why am I not winning the Olympics? And you also admit, well, I don't really have a goal. I'm out there doing this thing. And maybe the

目标而我正在尝试那个

goal And I'm is trying that

很难。而且我也没有那么努力。然后我根本不接受任何反馈。对我的手表来说没有。完全没有。

hard. And I'm not trying that hard. And then I don't really take any feedback at all. Not for my watch. Zero.

零是因为我没戴手表。但如果你仔细想想，如果你想在某方面做得更好，有一个三部分公式。你必须投入时间，必须有目标，必须付出努力，然后寻求反馈。如果你这样做，就是在应用这项研究。如果你观察任何在某方面出色的人，他们就是这么做的。

Zero because I'm not wearing a watch. But if you really look at it, if you want to get better at something, there's the three part formula. You gotta put in the hours, you gotta have a goal, you gotta put in the effort and then ask for feedback. And if you do that, you're now applying the research. And if you look at anybody that's amazing at anything, that's what they're doing.

事实上，在我们准备这期节目时，达克沃斯教授，当我们讨论一万小时法则和刻意练习时，我们都互相看着对方说，这有点像我们做这个播客的方式，因为我们不断问自己，如何让它更好？如何让它更好？采访一结束，我们就进一个房间，互相反馈刚才的情况。

In fact, when we were preparing for this episode, Professor Duckworth, as we were talking about the ten thousand hour rule and deliberate practice, we all kind of looked at each other and said, that's kind of how we approach this podcast because we're constantly asking ourselves, how do we make this better? How do we make this better? As soon as this interview is done, we all go into a room and we give each other feedback about what just happened.

在我们这次谈话之前，我和你们团队的波德莱尔聊过。他说，哦，你知道，我我知道你可能更喜欢被称呼为安吉拉或安吉。那是我丈夫叫我。那是我妈妈叫我。我们会叫你达克沃斯博士。

I spoke to Baudelaire on your team before we had this conversation. He said, oh, you know, I I know you may prefer to be addressed as Angela or Angie. That's, you know, what my husband calls me. That's what my mom calls me. Like, we're gonna call you doctor Duckworth.

我说，当然。你可以随便叫我什么。为什么？他说，嗯，你知道，我们学习过。对吧？

I said, sure. You can call me anything you want. Why why is that? He said, well, you know, we learn. Right?

我们了解到，你知道，我们不想有那种模式，女性被直呼其名，男性被称呼头衔。我觉得太棒了。完全正确。我认为这个三部分公式对个人适用，但对组织也同样适用，对吧？必须有目标。

And we have learned that, you know, it we don't wanna have that pattern where women are addressed by their first name, men are addressed by their salutation. I was like, amazing. So exactly right. I think this three part formula is true if you're an individual, but it's also true if you're an organization, right? Gotta have a goal.

是的。必须尝试。是的。而且你必须从反馈中学习。

Yep. Gotta try. Yep. And you gotta learn from feedback.

我想谈谈能够去做自己不擅长的事情的重要性。你知道，有很多人非常想开设YouTube频道、写一本书，或者在网上营销自己的业务，或者他们对某些需要经历那段非常尴尬时期的事情感兴趣，你知道，就是那种窘迫和羞耻感。我很想请你分享一下我们该如何学会做到这一点。我想给你读一段你那本超级畅销书《GRYT》中的内容，在第141页。

I would love to talk a little bit about the importance of being able to do something that you're bad at. You know, you may be There's a lot of people that are very interested in starting a YouTube channel or writing a book or, you know, marketing their business online or they're interested in, you know, something that is gonna require them to go through that really cringey period, you know, and the embarrassment and the shame. And I'd love to have you share a little bit about how we can learn how to do that. And I wanna read to you from your mega bestseller, GRYT. This is on page, 141.

这部分是关于练习的，你写到这些心理学家毕生致力于研究儿童如何学习，并一致认为从错误中学习是婴儿和幼儿完全不在意的事情。你观察一个婴儿努力坐起来或一个幼儿学走路，你会看到一个又一个错误，一次又一次失败，很多挑战超出了技能水平，大量的专注、反馈和学习。在情感上，他们太小了还不会问。确实如此，因为你从不会看到一个幼儿摔倒后说，好吧，我就躺在这里度过余生，我失败了。

It's in the section on practice and you're writing about these psychologists who devoted their careers to studying how children learn and agree that learning from mistakes is something that babies and toddlers don't mind at all. You watch a baby struggle to sit up or a toddler learn to walk, you'll see one error after another, failure after failure, a lot of challenge exceeding skill, a lot of concentration, a lot of feedback, a lot of learning. Emotionally, or they're too young to ask. That's true because you never see a toddler fall over and go, well, just lay here for the rest of my life, I've failed.

而且他们不感到羞耻。他们知道这很明显，他们不会尴尬。

And they don't feel shame. They know it's pretty obvious, they're not embarrassed.

对，但后来在孩子们进入幼儿园的时候，有些事情发生了变化。他们开始注意到自己的错误会引发大人的某些反应。我们会怎么做？我们皱眉，脸颊微红，我们冲过去指出他们做错了什么。那我们正在教的教训是什么？

Right, but then something changes around the time children enter kindergarten. They begin to notice that their mistakes inspire certain reactions in grownups. What do we do? We frown, our cheeks flush a bit, we rush over to our little ones to point out that they've done something wrong. And what's the lesson we're teaching?

尴尬、恐惧和羞耻。我从书的这部分了解到，我们实际上天生就倾向于尝试、学习和成长，而不是评判自己。但这种我们对自己做的尴尬羞耻的事情是我们被教导出来的。你能为我们解释一下吗？

Embarrassment, fear, and shame. What I got from this section of the book is that we're actually wired to try and to learn and to grow and not judge ourselves. But this kind of cringe embarrassment shame thing that we do to ourselves is something that we've been taught. Can you unpack that for us?

那两位心理学家是两位出色的女性，Elena和Deborah，她们是一位心理学家的门徒，我认为很多人没听说过他，但真的很遗憾，他就是列夫·维果茨基。他是一位俄罗斯心理学家，也是历史上伟大的发展心理学家之一。列夫花了很多时间观察幼儿。他发现，例如，幼儿在玩耍中学习。对吧？

Those two psychologists are two wonderful women, Elena and Deborah, and they were disciples of a psychologist that I don't think a lot of people have heard of, but it's a real shame, Lev Vygotsky. He was a Russian psychologist and one of the great developmental psychologists in history. And Lev spent a lot of time observing young children. And he found that, for example, young children learn in play. Right?

他们尝试自己做不到的事情。他们假装做一些事情，比如当医生，或者当妈妈，或者做一些他们不是的事情。然后他们当然做不到，他们做得很笨拙、很 clumsy，他们会摔倒，打翻东西，弄坏东西。我认为这种洞察力，这种天生的学习欲望，这种天生的实验欲望，这种在搞砸、失误时完全不自知的特性，存在于我们所有人身上，因为我们都是婴儿。我的意思是，你曾经也是那个年轻、天真、充满希望的孩子。

They try things that they can't do. They pretend to do things like be a doctor or, you know, to be a mom or to, you know, do things that they are not. And then they, of course, can't do them, and they do them very awkwardly and clumsily, and they fall down, they spill things, and they break things. And I think this insight that this native desire to learn, this native desire to experiment, this complete, you know, lack of self consciousness when it comes to screwing up, missing the mark, is it is in in all of us because we were all babies. I mean, you were that young, innocent, hopeful child.

而且，你知道，当你问埃琳娜和黛博拉关于这个假设时，比如也许在你五岁开始上学时，你会看到老师的表情、失望，当然还有同学的反应等等，她们会告诉你这更多是她们的推测，而不是有大量确凿数据支持。但显然，自我意识不是与生俱来的，而是后天习得的。那么是幼儿园时期吗？还是其他发生在相同时期的事情？不管是什么，我认为给我们的启示是尝试找回那种所谓的初学者心态，对吧？

And, you know, when you ask Elena and Deborah about this hypothesis that, like, maybe when you're five and you start to, you know, go to school and you see the facial expressions of your teachers and the disappointment and, of course, your classmates and so forth, you know, they will tell you that this is a little bit more of their speculation than, you know, mountains of hard data. But clearly, self consciousness is something that you are not born with, but you acquire. So is it kindergarten? Is it, you know, something else that's happening around the same time? Whatever it is, I think the lesson for us is to try to recover something of that, you know, the beginner's mind, it's sometimes called, right?

就像作为一个完全的新手、毫无自我意识的天赋。我这么说是因为我自己就希望一直能拥有这种状态。我觉得我现在好些了，但我记得二十多岁在纽约市生活时去上过一次嘻哈舞蹈课。

It's like the gift of just being a complete rookie and to be unselfconscious. And I speak as somebody who, like, wishes she had that all the time. I think I've gotten better at it, but I remember going to a hip hop class. I was in my twenties. I was living in New York City.

那是我人生中短暂担任管理顾问的时期。我的同事琳达说下班后一起去上嘻哈课。我说好啊，那是什么？于是我们去了，也许这是纽约的特色，但天啊，那里的每个人好像都来自乔弗里芭蕾舞团。

And I was was like the brief chapter in my life when I was a management consultant. And one of my coworkers, Linda, said, let's go to this hip hop class after work. And I was like, sure. What's that? And so we show up and maybe this is a New York thing, but like, oh my gosh, everybody there was like from the Joffrey Ballet.

我的意思是，老师会喊出这些动作，比如16个动作。然后你就得开始做，每个人都要单独从房间的一个角落跳到另一个角落。我当时想，这是什么情况？我感到非常难为情，非常尴尬，非常笨拙，非常狼狈，之后我再也没去过嘻哈课。

I mean, like, the teacher would call out these moves, like 16 moves. You're like, go. And then you would like all go individually from one corner of the room to the next. And I was like, what is happening? I felt so self conscious, so embarrassed, so awkward, so clumsy, and I never went to another hip hop class.

如果我当时真的尝试找回小时候的那个自己，谁在乎呢？当然，你不会跳嘻哈，这是你从未学过的东西，没什么好尴尬的。所以我现在确实努力记住这一点。

And if I had really tried to, I guess, you know, channel the little kid that I used to be, like, who cares? Like, of course, you don't know how to do hip hop. It's not something you've ever learned before. There's no embarrassment. So I do try to remember that.

我努力以身作则，因为我认为尽管这是后天习得的，但现在已成为我们的第二天性。对吧？比如，我们谁愿意牙齿上沾着菠菜呢？我们都希望一切完美。所以如果我们不愿意冒险、不愿意尴尬、不愿意经历那段窘迫期，这就会阻碍学习。

I try to model that, you know, because I do think it is something that, though acquired, is is now our second nature. Right? Like, who among us wants to, like, have the spinach in their teeth, right? Like, you know, we all want things to be great. And so that is an impediment to learning if we will not take those risks and not be awkward and not go through the cringe period.

你知道，在我们家，我们经常谈论坚持练习。就是每天出现，做那些枯燥艰苦的事，放弃你的时间表。但我们讨论过刻意练习。如果你在坚持练习，但进展不顺，开始感到沮丧，你一直很坚持，但天啊，就是没效果，杜克沃斯教授，我该如何与自己坦诚对话，甚至批评自己，因为有些工作是容易的。

You know, in our family, we talk a lot about putting in the reps. Just going and showing up every day and doing the boring, grueling and giving up your timeline. But we've talked about deliberate practice. Is there some tough love you can give yourself if you're doing the reps, stuff's not progressing, you're starting to get frustrated, you have been consistent, but by God, this isn't working. Professor Duckworth, like how do I have an honest conversation with myself and potentially call myself out because there's that work that is the work that's easy.

你懂我意思吗？就像，你知道，我们中有多少人真的喜欢准备工作，比如买新日记本、准备开始做事、提前整理、新笔、所有那些东西、新篮子。

You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, how many of us really love the preparation work, like the buying the new journal, the getting ready to do the thing, the organizing ahead, the new pen, all that stuff, the new baskets.

但现在你就像到了第179天，你会想，

But now you're like day 179 and you're like,

我一个字都还没写

I haven't written a

没错。是的。

word. Yeah. Yeah.

那么，你如何自我反省？因为我认为确实有很多人，包括我自己在内，投入的努力从0到10分可能只有3分。你如何与自己进行诚实的对话，以便我们能利用这项研究

So how, like, how do you call yourself out? Because I do think that there's a lot of people, myself included, that show up that are zero to 10, a three in terms of the effort putting in. How do you have that honest conversation with yourself so that we can tap into this research

关于这个，对于肝脏来说，3分总比0分好。我真的认为，无论是物理治疗，还是成为小说家，我觉得只要你投入了任何努力，对吧？大多数人的情况是，无论他们原本是多少分——可能是10分，可能是8分——最终都会降到0分。这才是真正的问题，对吧？他们退出了游戏。

around Well, for the liver three is not as much of a problem as zero. I really do think I mean, if it's physical therapy, if it's, you know, becoming a novelist, I really think if you put in anything, right? Like what happens to most people is that whatever their number is, they're putting in a 10, they're putting in an eight, whatever their numbers, it goes to zero. And that is the real problem, right? They're out of the game.

我真的是这个意思。当鲍勃·鲍曼——我有点痴迷于鲍勃·鲍曼，他是谁？他是迈克尔·菲尔普斯和利昂·马尔尚的教练。你知道，当他与他的游泳运动员交谈时，他会说，每一次游泳训练都像是在银行里存钱。有时候你只能存一美元。

And I really mean that. When Bob Bowman, I'm a little bit obsessed with Bob Bowman and his Who's Bob Bowman? He was the coach of Bob Bowman was the coach of Michael Phelps and Leon Marchand. You know, when when he when he talks to his swimmers, he says, like, you know, every swim practice is like putting a deposit in the bank. Sometimes you get to put in a dollar.

有时你能投入10分，也许偶尔能投入100美元。有时只有10美分。但你知道吗？在竞争来临之时，你每一次的投入都能取出来。梅尔，我认为即使你今天只投入了3分。

Sometimes you get to put in 10, maybe rarely get a $100. Sometimes it's 10¢. But guess what? Every deposit you make, you get to withdraw when it comes to competition. And I do think that, Mel, even if you're like, well, I only put in a 3 today.

好吧。但那不是零分。对吧？真的。所以我想说的是，人们有个误解，认为必须做到10分才行。

Alright. But it wasn't a zero. Right? Like, truly. So that is one thing I would just say that people have this misunderstanding that has to be a 10.

必须做到完美。如果迈克尔·菲尔普斯只投入了八分，而他可是迈克尔·菲尔普斯，那么，如果你只投入了三分，就给自己放个假吧。也许你累了。也许

It has to be an look. If Michael Phelps is putting in an eight and he is Michael Phelps, then, like, give yourself a break if you're putting in a three. Maybe you're tired. Like, maybe

嗯，有句名言怎么说来着，如果你今天只能给出30%，那就给出30%，你已经给出了你所能给出的100%。

Well, what's that famous quote that if all you can get if all you have to give is 30%, you give 30% today, you just gave a 100% of what you had given.

哦，我喜欢这个说法。我没听过这句话，但现在我听到了。好吧。首先，我会允许自己说，你知道吗？这就是我今天能做到的。

Oh, I love that. I have not heard that quote, but now I have. Okay. So first of all, I would give ourselves permission to say like, you know what? That's what I could do today.

第二点我想说的是，与其自言自语，不如和另一个人对话。我是认真的。我的意思是这样的。很多关于高成就者的镜头，甚至当你看到他们幕后，比如他们练习的时间，看起来像是独自完成的。在某种程度上，这是事实。

The second thing I would say is rather than having a conversation with yourself, I would have a conversation with another person. And I really mean that. Here's here's what I mean. So much of the sort of footage of, you know, high achievers and and even when you look at them behind the scenes and you like, you know, the hours that they practice, they look like they're doing it on their own. And to some extent, that's true.

事实上，当你进行高质量的有意练习时，通常更多是独自完成，而不是在另一个人（包括教练）面前进行的。不像你的教练一直站在那里，而你正专注于努力实现目标。但我所说的与另一个人交谈是指，无论是队友、导师还是教练，与其自言自语关于你的平台期和缺乏动力，你是否走错了路，也许方向错了，不如和另一个人对话。队友可以对你说，我注意到的是；导师或教练可以说，根据我的经验，我发现的是；我知道你和心理学家伊桑·克罗斯聊过，他是我最喜欢的人之一，也是很好的朋友。这个心理距离的概念。

In fact, when you do that high quality deliberate practice, it is more typically done alone than it is in the presence of another person, including a coach. It's not like your coach stands there the whole time where you're concentrating and trying to achieve your goals. But what I mean by talk to another person is this, whether it is a teammate or a mentor or a coach, rather than having the conversation with yourself about your plateau and your lack of motivation, are you on the wrong track and maybe you're going in the wrong direction, have the conversation with another human being. A teammate can say to you, well, what I've noticed is a mentor or a coach can say, in my experience, what I've found is it is something that and I know you have spoken to the psychologist Ethan Cross, and he is one of my favorite humans and a very good friend. This idea of psychological distance.

对吧？你试图与自己的问题保持一点距离，以便能客观地思考。我的意思是，也许你陷入了困境，也许你应该尝试不同的做法。或者你可能训练过度，或者有些你还没尝试过的方法可以试试。如果你尝试自己创造一些心理距离，可以部分成功。

Right? You are trying to have a little distance on your problem so you can think about it objectively. I mean, maybe you are in a rut and maybe you should be doing something differently. Or maybe you're overtraining or maybe there's something you could try that you haven't tried. If you try to create some psychological distance yourself, you can partially succeed.

你可以对着镜子里的自己说：梅尔，问题是什么？我也可以对着镜子里的自己说：安吉拉，我认为现在发生了什么？这个问题该如何解决？但如果我去找我的丈夫杰森、同事凯蒂、朋友伊桑或导师卡罗尔，不是更好吗？因为他们有真正的心理距离，因为他们不是我。

You can say, Mel, what's the problem to yourself in the mirror? I can say to myself in the mirror, Angela, what do what do I think is going on right now? How can this problem be solved? But wouldn't it be better if I went to my husband Jason or my colleague Katie or my friend Ethan or my mentor Carol? Because they have actual psychological distance because they are not me.

所以我认为，当人们感到精疲力竭、濒临崩溃时，常犯的一个错误是更深入地挖掘，向内审视。而几乎总是，向外寻求帮助会让你好得多。

So I think one of the mistakes people make when they're feeling exhausted, when they are on the verge of burnout, is they dig deeper and they look inward. And almost always, you are much better off looking outward.

我喜欢这个观点。所以这是达克沃斯博士的第二个任务。这里有很多功课。你应该去找人谈谈。但你知道不该找谁谈吗？是你的母亲。因为当你处于那种心理状态时，无论你母亲说什么，即使她是对的，即使那是你能听到的最好的建议，你都会觉得烦人。

I love that. So that's the second assignment from doctor Duckworth There's a lot of homework here. You should go talk to somebody. You know who you shouldn't talk to is your mother. Because when you're in that psychological state, no matter what your mother says, even if she's right, even if it's the best thing you could hear, it's going to be annoying to you.

你可以找别人的母亲谈。是的，是的，那确实有效。

You can talk to somebody else's mother. Yeah. Yeah. That that that works.

是的。作为两位母亲，我们都懂。

Yes. As two moms, we know.

是的。我也被这么告诉过。

Yes. I've been I've been told that

那个那个那个，我所说的一切

that that that everything I'm

都极其没有帮助。

saying is extremely unhelpful.

是的，完全正确。我可以听你说一整天，也非常感激你在这里，但我需要稍作休息，原因有二。首先，我得给我们的赞助商一个机会说几句话。其次，你生活中有人正在为动力而挣扎。

Yes. Exactly. I could listen to you all day, and I'm so grateful that you're here, but I need to take a quick break for a couple reasons. First of all, I gotta give our sponsors a chance to share a few words. But second, there is someone in your life that is struggling with motivation right now.

这正是他们需要的礼物。把这一集发送给他们。让达克沃斯博士教他们关于动力、成功的科学，以及毅力的这四个支柱。别走开，因为我们回来后她还有更多要教给你的。所以请和我一起留下来。

This is the gift that they need. Send this episode to them. Let doctor Duckworth teach them about the science of motivation, success, and these four pillars of grit. Do not go anywhere because she has so much more to teach you when we return. So stay with me.

欢迎回来。我是你的朋友梅尔·罗宾斯。今天，你和我有幸向世界著名的心理学家、教授和毅力专家安吉拉·达克沃斯博士学习。让我们继续吧。

Welcome back. It's your buddy Mel Robbins. Today, you and I are getting to learn from world renowned psychologist, professor, and expert on grit, Doctor. Angela Duckworth. So let's get back into it.

达克沃斯博士，这是我的下一个问题。在你的研究中，毅力的第三部分是目标。你如何定义目标？

Doctor. Duckworth, here's my next question. In your research, the third part of grit is purpose. How do you define purpose?

当我们这么说时，意思是感觉自己是某个比自己更大的事物的一部分，并为其服务。我认为我们都想有所帮助。说实话，我们宁愿帮助别人而不是被帮助。我们已经失去了与他人的联系和责任。我认为这就是当今正在发生的事情。

When we say that, we mean that you feel like you are part of and in service to something that is larger than yourself. I think all of us want to be helpful. I think we would rather help than be helped, honestly. We have lost, you know, our connection and our responsibility to others. And I think that's what's happening today.

我认为我们想要这样做，但对我们来说并不明显。所以对我来说，这不仅是提醒我们自己，还要努力取得一些进展，因为我觉得人们不需要说教。他们只需要找到一些可以开始做的小事。你知道，我丈夫前几天说，去给我拿个袋子，就是那种购物袋，因为他有五分钟空闲时间，就在我们街区捡了垃圾。我的意思是，这对街区有好处吗？

I think we want to, but it's not obvious to us. And so that to me is, you know, something not only to remind ourselves of, but to, you know, try to get some traction on because I don't think people need preaching. I think they just need to find little things that they can do to get started. You know, my husband said the other day, like, go get me a a bag, you know, like one of those, like, little shopping bags because he had five extra minutes and he just like picked up the trash on our block. I mean, that was just, you know, is it great for the block?

当然。但对杰森·达克沃斯来说甚至更好，对吧？所以就像这些小事一样，你知道，我是个小角色，但这却是很重要的一部分。

Sure. But it was even better for Jason Duckworth. Right? So just like these little little things of, you know, I'm a small part. This is a big part.

我能做些什么来提供帮助？

What can I do to be helpful?

所以如果目标是有这种责任感，并有意识地帮助他人，对吧？

So if purpose is having this sense of responsibility and the acting with the intention of helping others. Right?

是的，是的。

Yeah. Yeah.

没错。人们可以问自己什么问题来帮助他们开始看到目标感？因为这是拥有毅力的支柱之一。

Exactly. What's one question that someone can ask themselves to help them start to see a sense of purpose? Because this is one of the pillars being somebody with grit.

有一项研究以干预的形式提出了这个问题。它是由大卫·耶格尔进行的，他在德克萨斯大学奥斯汀分校实际上是他导师卡罗尔·德韦克的得意门生。所以这一切，你知道，形成了一个完整的循环。他在研究中向青少年提出的问题是：有什么事情真的让你烦恼？世界上有什么问题真的让你生气？

There is a research study that asked this question in the form of an intervention. And it was run by David Yeager, who David Yeager at UT Austin is actually a protege of his mentor, Carol Dweck. So it's all, you know, full circle. And the the question that he posed to teenagers in the study is like, what's something that really annoys you? Like, what is the problem in the world that really makes you mad?

写下它，对吧？这就是实验组的处理条件。还有一个对照组，要求你写些别的内容。这是一个目标干预，因为这个问题开启了你可能想要着手解决的问题——毕竟我们无法处理所有事情。

Write about it. Right? And that was the treatment condition. And there was a control condition where you wrote about something else. And it was a purpose intervention because that is an opening question to a problem that maybe you wanna work on because we can't all work on everything.

对吧？比如有人可能非常关心环境问题。另一个人可能对社区里的垃圾感到愤怒——那会是我丈夫。还有人可能会想到，比如不喜欢女性受到的对待方式，或者亲身经历过激励他们的事情。

Right? So one person might really care about the environment. Another person might be really angry at the litter they see in their neighborhood. That would be my husband. Another person might think of, you know, they don't like the way women are treated and they've experienced something, you know, in their own lives that really motivates them.

我觉得每个人都能回答这个问题：有什么事情真的让你恼火、愤怒或愤慨？把它写下来。虽然这看起来不像是通往目标的明显入口，但我认为它是探索内心伤痛的一扇美妙之门——你觉得什么应该改变？

I think everybody can answer that question. You know, what is a thing that really irritates you, angers you, outrages you? Write about it. I think that is not the obvious entree into purpose, but I think it is a wonderful doorway into what is in your heart that hurts, you know? What do you think ought to be different?

这是迈出第一步：嘿，也许我能带来这种改变。

It's the first step to saying, hey, maybe I can make that difference.

我想先举个简单例子，然后深入探讨工作中的目标感，因为很多人觉得与自己所做的事情缺乏连接。

You know, I want to give a quick example and then I want to dig deeper into purpose in your job because so many people don't feel connected to what they're doing.

确实很多人如此。

But So many.

给我带来很多能量且让我超级感兴趣的是园艺，尤其是花卉。

Something that brings me a lot of energy and that I'm super interested in is gardening, flowers in particular.

好的。

Okay.

而且我听说

And I had heard

顺便说一句，这里有很多漂亮的花。

There are many beautiful flowers here, by the way.

是啊。我们工作室里为什么会有这么新鲜的花呢。

Yeah. Why would we have fresh fresh flowers in the studio.

我问你是不是有什么特别的场合，你说是的。

I asked you if it was a special occasion, and you said Yeah.

是的。因为你来了。

It is. You're here.

嗯，是的。你

Well, yes. You're

这里，达克沃斯博士。生活。但它自然而然地让我充满活力。我的孩子们会取笑我，因为我们走过城市公园时，我能叫出每一种花的名字。

here, doctor Duckworth. Life. But so it just naturally brings me alive. My kids tease me because we can walk through a city park. I can name every flower.

我可以谈论它。我就是对它超级感兴趣。就这样吧。

I can talk about it. I'm just super interested in it. There we go.

是的，就是这样。

Yeah, there you go.

我听说我们社区有一位女士病得很重，她是个花农。我组织了一群朋友在她住院期间去帮助她。是的。这给了我一种深刻的意义和目标感。所以这是一个例子，不是在职业生涯中，而是关于如何将你感兴趣的事物融入日常生活，并找到方法让它成为有目标的生活的一部分。

And I heard about a woman in our community who had gotten very sick and she's a flower farmer. And I organized a bunch of friends to go help her while she was in the hospital. Yeah. And it gave me a deep sense of meaning and purpose. And so that's an example, not in career, of how you can infuse day to day life with things that you're interested in and then also find ways to make it part of purposeful living.

就像你丈夫那样，他会说，等等，我散步时看到垃圾让我很烦恼。我很高兴你分享了这一点，因为上次我绕着我家附近散步时，我注意到垃圾增多了，我想我

Just like your husband who's like, wait a minute, I it bothers me that there's trash on my walk. And I'm glad you shared that because the last time I walked the loop by my house, I noticed an uptick in trash and I thought I

知道有很多垃圾经过。

knew lot of trash going through.

但我，但我，是的。我立刻想到这可能会让我看起来像个坏人。我 literally 在想，为什么他们还没清理这个？

But I but I Yeah. I immediately thought this will give you this will probably make me look like a bad person. I literally was like, why haven't they cleaned this up?

真的得有人来处理这件事。

Someone's really gotta get on this.

现在你让我意识到，好吧，等等，等一下。为什么我不去做呢？

And then now you're making me realize Well okay. Wait Wait minute. Why don't I do it?

为什么你不去做呢？我也要允许你不要把世界上所有的问题都扛在自己肩上。你知道，我不想一概而论所有女性，但我会以女性的身份来说。我坦白地说，我一生中做了很多公共服务，对吧？

Why don't you do it? Let me also give you permission to not take every problem in the world on your shoulders. And one of the things you know, I don't wanna generalize to all women, but I will speak as a woman. And I I will just say as a confession that, you know, a lot of my life I did a lot of public service. Right?

所以当我上高中，尤其是大学的时候，我是说，大学时有一段时间，我花在公共服务上的时间真的比在讲堂或实验室还多，因为我是神经生物学专业的。非常多、非常多的时间。我要告诉你，我觉得我有件事大错特错。我当时觉得越累越好，越是‘应该’和‘必须’驱动你的动机，就越好。

So when I was in high school and especially in college, I mean, there was a point in college that I literally spent more hours doing public service than I was in the lecture hall or the lab because I was a neurobiology major. So many, many, many hours. And I will tell you that I think I had one thing very wrong. I felt like the more tired you were, the better. The more ought and should drove your motivation, the better.

在某种程度上，你越不快乐，行为就越高尚，越有美德。现在，在我五十多岁的时候，我可以说不，不，不，不，不。世界上有这么多问题，说实话，问题太多了。你不必解决所有问题。

In some ways, the less happy you were, the better the act, the more virtuous. Now, in my fifties, I can say, no, no, no, no, no. Why don't you there's so many problems in the world. Honestly, there's so many problems in world. You don't have to solve all of them.

你不可能解决所有问题。为什么不专注于你感兴趣的那一部分呢？对吧？这样你不仅能实现个人目标感，做正确的事，而且天啊，如果你喜欢花，难道不能找到一种方法让世界变得更美好，同时也让你享受这个非常严肃的爱好吗？

You can't solve all of them. Why don't you focus on the subset that is interesting to you? Right? So that you're not only fulfilling a sense of personal purpose and doing the right thing. But my goodness, if you love flowers, can't you find a way to make the better the world a better place that also allows you to enjoy this, you know, very serious hobby that you have.

比如，为什么你总是要逆流而上呢？我要告诉你，梅尔，我花了很长时间才完全内化这一点。现在，对我来说，我是说，这次对话就是我目标的一部分。对吧？就像，我想让世界在心理上变得更智慧。

Like, why do you have to always go in the direction that is against the grain? And I will tell you, Mel, it took me a long time to fully internalize that. Now, to me I mean, this conversation to me is part of my purpose. Right? Like, I want to make the world a psychologically wiser place.

而如果我能够对一个人做到这一点，那么我的人生就算过得很有意义了。但我并没有选择历史。我没有选择时事。我会是个糟糕的民选政治家。我连美国50个州的名字都几乎说不全。

And if I can do that with one person, then I will have lived a good life. But I did not choose history. I did not choose current events. I would be a terrible elected politician. I can barely name all 50 states in the union.

但心理学对我来说很有趣。所以，为什么不把我的目标与兴趣结合起来呢？当你实现了这种结合，对我来说就产生了激情。所以我希望听众们能够意识到，现在开始还不晚，你知道的。无论何时你意识到这一点，你都可以从那天开始寻找这个交集。

But psychology is interesting to me. So so why not marry my purpose to my interests? When you have that marriage, that to me creates passion. And so I hope people listening are able to say it's not too late, you know. Whenever you come to this realization, you can begin that very day to look for the intersection.

我很高兴你这么说，因为我相信很多人都觉得有太多事情在发生，做什么都无法改变现状。对吧。或者觉得如果你把时间花在感兴趣的领域做志愿者，那似乎还不够重要。

I am so glad you said that because I believe that so many people feel that there's so many things going on that nothing's gonna make a difference. Right. Or that if you are spending your time volunteering in an area that interests you, that somehow that's not big enough.

没错。

Right.

你的书里有一个关于目标的故事，与砌砖工人有关，我想读给你听。这是在你那本畅销书《坚毅》的第149页，关于目标的部分。确实幸运的是那些拥有顶级目标的人，这个目标对世界如此重要，以至于它赋予了他们所做的一切——无论多么微小或乏味——以意义。想想砌砖工人的寓言。三个砌砖工人被问到，你们在做什么？

There is a story about purpose in your book related to bricklayers that I wanna read to you. This is on page one forty nine of your blockbuster bestseller, Grit, in the section on purpose. Fortunate indeed are those who have a top level goal so consequential to the world that it imbues everything they do, no matter how small or tedious with significance. Consider the parable of the bricklayers. Three bricklayers are asked, what are you doing?

第一个说，我在砌砖。第二个说，我在建一座教堂。第三个说，我在建造上帝的殿堂。第一个砌砖工人有一份工作。第二个有一份职业。

The first says, I'm laying bricks. The second says, I'm building a church. And the third says, I'm building the house of God. The first bricklayer has a job. The second has a career.

第三个有一份使命。我们如何将这一点应用到我们的生活、我们的婚姻、我们的职业生涯中？

The third has a calling. How can we apply that to our lives, to our marriage, to our career?

实际上有一种天职的科学。所以有寓言，但也有现代科学。这是真的。有些人去工作，那只是一份工作，用来支付账单。

There is actually a science calling. So there are parables, but there's actually modern science. And it's true. Some people, they go to work, and it's a job. It pays the bills.

一到下午五点，他们的大脑就从工作中抽离，去做他们真正想做的事。有些人拥有事业，他们能看到进步。对吧？所以这更好。对吧？

Soon as it's 05:00, their brain shuts off from their work and they get to do what they really wanna do. Some people have a career, they see progression. Right? So this is better. Right?

顺便说一句，就像是，哦，我能看到自己在进步。这其中有某种成就感。梅尔，我们讨论过在某件事上变得更好的满足感，这其实是人类DNA中固有的。所以相比一份工作，拥有一份事业是件美好的事。但天职，我认为，是将我们内在的兴趣与我们最深的个人价值观结合在一起的东西。

By the way, it's like, oh, I can see that I'm getting ahead. There's some kind of fulfillment in that. Mel, we talked about the gratification of getting better at something and that's, you know, built into human DNA. So that's a wonderful thing to have a career compared to a job. But a calling, I think, is something that marries our intrinsic interests with our deepest personal values.

这方面的科学表明，当你拥有天职时，你绝对会更快乐，表现也更好。我认为这项研究中一个令人惊讶的发现是，并非医生就有天职，护士就有事业，而那个必须推着担架车穿过走廊的人就只有一份工作。不，如果你真正观察人们与工作的关系，这与职位头衔无关，而更多地与他们对自己工作的感受、看法和体会有关。所以你不必非得换工作才能拥有一种本质上不同的关系。

And the science of this shows that when you have a calling, absolutely, you're happier and you are a better performer. I think one of the things that is surprising about this research is that it's not like physicians have a calling and nurses have a career and the guy who has to, you know, roll the gurney down the hallway, well, he has a job. No, if you actually look at people's, you know, relationships with their work, it has nothing to do with the job title. It has more to do with how they feel about their work, how they see it and how they feel it. So you don't have to switch your job necessarily to have a relationship with it, which is qualitatively different.

最后我要说的是，‘天职’这个词，你基本上是从《圣经》中读到的，它最初并非现代心理学术语。它原本确实具有宗教内涵，意指被上帝召唤，被更高力量召唤去做某事。我想说，今天研究天职的科学家们，比如真正研究其当代科学的学者，在某种程度上正回归到那个含义，因为它不仅仅是‘哇，这很有趣’或‘哇，这与我的价值观非常共鸣’。当你真正被召唤时，你确实会感觉有一个任务摆在你面前，你既感兴趣又认为重要，并且这个任务需要由你来完成，感觉你是被需要的。

And last thing I'll say is that this word calling actually, you know, you read from the Bible essentially, and it actually originally was not a term of modern psychology. It originally did have a religious connotation of being called by God, of being called to do something by a higher power. And I would say that what scientists who study calling today, you know, like the real contemporary science of it, is actually returning in a way to that because it's it's something in addition perhaps to like, wow, this is interesting. And woah, this is very resonant with my values. When you are truly called, you do feel like there is a task that has been laid at your door that you are interested in and you do find important, but but but that it needs to be you, like that you are needed.

我认为对今天的年轻人，实际上对我们所有人来说，一个真实的情况是，这种被深切需要、真正有用、被赋予任务的感觉，并且感觉，我再次强调，如果我们能在不使用‘应该’这个词的情况下做到这一点（我知道这似乎有违直觉），但真正感受到自己是比个人关切更宏大事物的一部分，我认为这正是我们许多人所寻找的。我认为我们应该受到鼓舞，因为研究还表明，如果你对自己说，‘哦，我是第一个砌砖工’，或者甚至‘我是第二个砌砖工’，这并不意味着你不能成为第三个砌砖工。绝对可以，天职是不断演变的。

And one of the things that I think is true for young people today, but really all of us is that I think this deep need to be needed to be truly useful, to be given a task, and to feel like, you know, I again, if we can do that without the word should, which I know that seems like counterintuitive, but to really feel that sense of kind of being part of something bigger than your own personal concerns, I think that is, you know, what so many of us are looking for. And I think we should be encouraged because the research also shows that if you say to yourself, oh, I'm the first bricklayer, or even I'm the second bricklayer, it doesn't mean that you can't be the third bricklayer. Absolutely, callings evolve.

嗯，很明显你就有这样一个天职。

Well, it's very clear that you have one.

是的。我觉得这是一种召唤。当然，我感到非常幸运能拥有它。梅尔，我无法告诉你，比如，如果你没有成为心理学家会怎样？你是否也会对你所说的热爱食物有同样的感觉。

I do. I feel like it's a calling. I feel, of course, very blessed to have it. And I can't tell you, Mel, like, well, what if you hadn't been a psychologist? Like, could you feel that way about becoming you said you love food.

我也热爱食物。也许我本可以成为一名厨师，你知道吗？那是另一条未走的路。也许我本可以成为一名儿科医生。我热爱孩子，但我觉得我有一种召唤。

I love food too. Like, maybe I could have been maybe a chef, you know? Like, that's another road not taken. Maybe maybe I could have been a pediatrician. I love children or but I feel like I have a calling.

我觉得这就是我让世界变得更美好的方式。

I feel like this is, you know, my way of making the world a better place.

对于那些寻求召唤的人，研究中是否有任何内容可以帮助你更深入地挖掘这个目标支柱，真正开始思考如何将你所做的事情及其原因锚定在比你自身更宏大的事物上？

For somebody who wants a calling, is there anything in the research that helps you kinda dig deeper into this pillar of purpose to really start to think about how to anchor what you're doing and why you're doing it into something that's bigger than you?

你知道，当我与领导者交谈时，尽管我不太擅长金融和其他沃顿商学院教授的内容，但我是领导力的热情学习者，我喜欢研究世界级领导者，就像我喜欢研究世界级运动员一样。当你问一位世界级领导者，一个普通人，甚至是组织中的高级管理人员，需要多久被提醒一次大局观，对吧？比如提醒他们工作的更大目标。你可能会认为是一年一次，因为他们每年都有年会，比如 retreats，或者你可能认为是每季度一次，因为CEO经常召开全员大会，或者每天一次。有时这些CEO会说每小时、每分钟都需要提醒，因为很容易失去对大局的把握。

You know, when I talk to leaders, and though I am not very good at finance and other things that they teach at the Wharton School of Business, I mean, I am a very passionate student of leadership and I love studying world class leaders the way I love studying world class athletes. And when you ask a world class leader, how often does a typical person, even a very high ranking executive in your organization, need to be reminded of the big picture, right? Like reminded of the greater purpose of the work. You know, when you ask that question, you might think annually because that's how often they have annual meetings like, you know, like the retreats or maybe you think quarterly because that's often how, you know, frequently a CEO has a town hall or daily. Sometimes these CEOs are saying like hourly, minutely, like, just it's it's very easy to lose a sense of the big picture.

我认为如果你问这个问题：如果我做好我的工作，谁会受益？你自然会得到答案。我住在离一所小学半个街区的地方，那里有一位交通协管员，他用他的微笑和存在点亮了世界。我记得自己心想，哇，多么不寻常的人。我丈夫说，哦，我认识那个人。

And I think if you ask the question, who benefits if I do my job well? You you you naturally get the answer. I I live a half block from an elementary school, and there is a crossing guard there who lights up the world with his smile and his, you know, his presence. And I remember thinking to myself like, wow, like, what an unusual person. And my husband said, oh, I know that person.

对吧？他以前其实是田径教练。我猜他现在退休了。我只是想，他与每一个他护送穿过那个繁忙十字路口的孩子都有联系，a，安全到达学校，b，以某人真诚的喜爱和关怀开始新的一天。嘿。

Right? Like, he actually used to, you know, coach track. Guess now he's retired. He just and I thought to myself, you know, if he has a connection to, like, every child that he crosses across that busy intersection, a, gets to school safely, b, starts the day with someone looking at them with, like, genuine affection and fondness. Like, hey.

你怎么样？见到你真好。这真是件美好的事。所以我认为你不必非得是牧师或社会工作者才能有使命感。我的意思是，你可以问问自己，当我做好我的工作时，谁会受益？

How you doing? Good to see you. Like, what a beautiful thing. So I don't think you have to be a priest or a a social worker, you know, to have a calling. I mean, you can ask yourself, who benefits when I do my job well?

然后你就有了答案。

And you have your answer.

说得真好。

That was beautiful.

他很棒。你得来看看，这样我们就能一起过马路了。你也很棒。你得在周一到周五八点左右来。我很乐意。

He's great. You gotta come see so that we can cross the street together. You're great. You gotta come on a weekday around like eight. I would love to.

是啊，我很乐意。

Yeah. I would love to.

嗯。

Yeah.

让我们谈谈最后一个话题，希望。你说毅力依赖于另一种希望。它建立在我们自己的努力能够改善未来的期望之上。'我感觉明天会更好'与'我决心让明天变得更好'是不同的。

Let's hit the final one, hope. So you say that grit depends on a different kind of hope. It rests on the expectation that our own efforts can improve our future. I have a feeling tomorrow will be better is different from I resolve to make tomorrow better.

希望是没有章节之分的，因为我认为无论你是4岁还是104岁，都需要希望。梅尔，我们之前谈过成长型思维。当你问我希望究竟是什么时，要知道，希望是一种信念——相信未来可以比过去更好，并且相信自己能以某种方式实现这个未来。

Hope is something that doesn't have a chapter because I think you need hope whether you're four or a 104. And, you know, we spoke about growth mindset, Mel. And when you asked me, what is hope really? You know, hope is the belief that the future can be better than the past. And it is the belief that you can, in some way, make that come to pass.

当你思考自己的生活、幸福、健康、体重、退休储蓄、孩子以及你能为他们做些什么时，一个充满希望的人会说：我认为未来可以比过去更好。而且我相信，即使是很小的事情，我也能做点什么来促成这种改变。我认为希望的核心在于这种信念——为什么要相信呢？因为成长是人类的天性。人类的天性就是会犯错、彻底搞砸、留下许多遗憾，然后通过这些经历变得更聪明、更强大。

When you think about your life, when you think about your happiness, when you think about your health, when you think about your weight, when you think about your retirement savings, when you think about your children and what you can do in their lives, a hopeful person says, I think the future can be better than the past. And I think there's something, even a small thing, that I can do to make it so. And at the core of hope, I think, is that belief of, well, well, why why would I believe that? Well, because it is the nature of human nature to grow. It is the nature of human nature to make mistakes, royally screw up, have a lot of regrets, and be smarter and stronger for the experience.

所以当我看到任何年龄段的坚韧者时，他们都有这种持久的信念：因为他们是学习者，因为发展而非停滞是他们的天性，正是这种信念驱动着他们的乐观和希望，让他们第二天能够起床做事而不是赖在床上。

So when I see people who are gritty at any age, they have this, you know, durable sense that because they are learners, because it is in their nature to develop and not to stagnate, that is what drives their optimism and their hope for for, you know, getting something done the next day as opposed to staying in bed.

我太喜欢这个定义了，喜欢你这样剖析它。你能和我们分享一下关于相信自己有能力改善自己或他人生活的研究吗？

I love that definition. I love that you unpack that. Can you just share with us the research around believing in your capacity to improve your life or the life of somebody else?

科学家有时会使用‘能动性’这个术语。我认为这也许说明了这不是空想，对吧？它不仅仅是广义上的积极思考，而是一种对未来的掌控感——不是天真地认为你能决定未来的一切（显然不能）。阿尔·班杜拉，他已去世，但生前在斯坦福大学工作。

Sometimes scientists use the term agency. And that I think maybe makes the point that this is not wishful thinking. Right? It's not just positive thinking in some generic sense, but feeling agency is a sense of control over your future, not the naive sense that you can determine everything about the future, which you obviously cannot. Al Bandura, he no longer lied, but he was at Stanford University.

他确定了能动性的四个驱动因素，他称之为‘自我效能感’。但实际上，当你研究他的论述时——比如看阿尔·班杜拉使用的问卷，就会发现核心是‘如果我尝试，我就能做到’这种能动性意识。

And he identified four drivers of agency. He called it self efficacy. But really, when you look at what he was talking about, like if you look at the questionnaire that Al Bandar used, I can do this if I try. Right? That sense of agency.

‘如果我尝试，我就能做到’。四个驱动因素中，他说其中一个——我认为这对人们来说并不明显但非常重要，我知道你经常谈论身体健康和自我照顾——阿尔·班杜拉指出，能动性的驱动因素之一就是处于生理健康的状态。

I can do this if I try. Four drivers of it. He said, well, one is and I think this is not very obvious to people, but I think it's very important. I know you've spoken a lot about, you know, physical health, like taking care of yourself. Albender has said that one of the drivers of agency is being in a physiological state of of wellness.

当你筋疲力尽时，你无法拥有能动性。当你生病时，你无法拥有能动性。比如，当你感到喘不过气时。所以，第一件事是照顾好你的身体，这样你才能拥有那种精力和能动感。第二是他所谓的言语说服，但我总觉得像是打气的话。

You can't have agency when you're exhausted. You can't have agency when you're sick. Like, when you feel out of breath. So so one thing is take care of your body so that you can have that sense of energy and agency. Second was what he called verbal persuasion, but I always think like pep talks.

对吧？你知道，你有点沮丧。你在想，哦，我觉得我做不到这个。然后有人过来，也许是关心你的人，说，不，你能做到的。我以前见过你做到过。

Right? You know, you're kinda down. You're thinking like, oh, I don't think I can do this. And someone comes along, maybe somebody who cares about you and says, no, you can do it. I've seen you do it before.

阿尔·班杜拉不想否定这一点。他说那是一种非常强大的能动性来源，但不如第三件事好，那就是一个人走过来，他们不给你打气，而是给你一个榜样。他们通过实例向你展示什么是可能的。所以他进行了这些研究，小女孩和小男孩会观看成年人做某事，比如玩玩具，他们会隔着玻璃隔板观看。

And Al Bandura didn't want to dismiss that. He said that is a very powerful source of agency, but not as good as a third thing, which is that a person comes along and they don't give you a pep talk. They give you a model. They show you what's possible by example. So he would run these studies and little girls and boys would watch an adult do something like play with a toy, and they would watch behind this, like, plate glass divider.

然后当你让他们进入房间，他们可以做任何想做的事时，他们就会完全像成年人一样玩那个玩具。我们通过模仿学习。当我们对自己做某事没有信心时，我们看到一个榜样，也许看起来像我们，也许不像我们，但我们在其他方面有共鸣，我们认同他们，这就在我们心中创造了能动性。我从自己的学生那里听到过，他们会告诉我，哦，你知道，你是一位亚洲女性，我发现你对我来说是一个榜样。我对他们说，哇，我甚至没想过自己是一位亚洲女性。

And then when you let them into the room and they could do whatever they want, they just did exactly the same thing with the toy as the grown up did. We learn through modeling. And when we're not confident that we can do something and we see a model who maybe looks like us, maybe doesn't look like us, but we vibe with in some other way we identify with them, that creates agency in us. And I've heard that from my own students, they'll tell me like, Oh, you know, you're an Asian female and I have found you to be an example for me. And I say to them like, wow, I don't even think about being an Asian female.

但显然，他们可以通过这一点看到可能性。但我真正想深入探讨的是第四件事。第四件事是最重要的，比你的生理状态更重要，比打气的话更重要，甚至比有一个榜样更重要。那就是他所谓的掌握经验。我称之为小胜利。

But clearly, they could see what was possible through that. But what I really want to dwell on is the fourth thing. The fourth thing was the most important thing, more important than your physiological state, more important than pep talks, and even more important than having a model. And that was what he called a mastery experience. I called a small win.