你听过的最好的理财建议

嘿，我是你的朋友梅尔，欢迎收听梅尔·罗宾斯播客。最近我收到了很多关于金钱的问题。比如：梅尔，我该如何开始储蓄？当我连账单都勉强支付时，该如何投资？

Hey. It's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. I've been getting a lot of questions about money. Questions like, Mel, how do I start saving? How do I invest when I can barely pay my bills?

如何改掉这些不良消费习惯？我买了太多不需要的东西。如果我赚的钱不足以改善现状怎么办？如果我深陷债务怎么办？救救我。

How do I break these bad spending habits? I'm buying so much stuff I don't need. What if I'm not making enough to get ahead? What if I'm deep in debt? Help.

我就是不擅长理财。我懂。天哪，我也曾经历过。我曾一度负债80万美元，信用卡刷爆，房屋抵押贷款，几乎揭不开锅。我感到完全被压垮、羞愧、迷茫，仿佛永远无法摆脱困境。

I'm just not good with money. I get it. And holy cow, have I been there. I mean, at one point, I was $800,000 in debt, maxed out the credit cards, a lean on my house, barely getting food on the table. I felt completely overwhelmed, ashamed, lost, like I was never gonna dig my way out.

现在我知道很多人也有同样感受，所以我想向你们介绍我最喜欢的理财书籍作者。这本书彻底改变了我的财务生活——《金钱心理学》。这是我让三个孩子都必读的书，也是我在金钱话题上力荐的著作。

And right now, I know so many of you are feeling that way too, which is why I wanted to introduce you to the person who wrote my favorite book on money. It completely changed my financial life. The book, The Psychology of Money. Now, this is the book that I've made all three of my kids read. It's the book that I recommend on the topic of money.

于是我联系了作者，今天摩根·豪塞尔将带来完全在你掌控范围内的简单而有效的方法。最重要的是：你不需要赚更多钱就能学会理财。这难道不是个好消息吗？我们将从你现状出发。

And so I called up the author, and today, Morgan Housel is here to give you simple, powerful things that you can do that are 100% within your control. And here's the most important thing you need to hear. You do not need to make more money in order to get good with money. I mean, isn't that great news? We're gonna start right where you are.

今天摩根将分享真正重要的金钱法则，包括：让你持续贫穷的头号决定因素，为何每笔消费归根结底只有两种选择。你还将学会如何戒除坏习惯、管理资金，以及每次领薪后该做的具体事项。这些方法智慧、简单、有研究支撑且有效。无论你是月光族、正在偿债还是想积累财富，是时候一劳永逸地掌控财务生活了。嘿，我是你的朋友梅尔，欢迎收听梅尔·罗宾斯播客。

Today, Morgan is gonna give you money rules that actually matter, including the number one decision that's keeping you broke, why every single dollar that you spend comes down to just two choices. You're also gonna learn how to break bad habits, manage your money, and exactly what you need to be doing every time you get paid. This is smart, simple, research backed, and it works. Whether you're living paycheck to paycheck, trying to pay off your debt, or trying to build real wealth, it is time to take control of your financial life once and for all. Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

非常高兴你的到来，对我们的对话充满期待。首先，能与你共度这段时光总是我的荣幸。如果你是首次收听或经人推荐而来，我谨代表梅尔·罗宾斯播客大家庭向你表示欢迎。迫不及待想让你认识摩根·豪塞尔，收获你听过最棒的财务建议。

I am so excited you're here. I'm so excited for our conversation. First of all, it's always an honor to be together and to spend this time with you. And if you're a new listener or you're here because someone shared this episode with you, I just wanted to personally welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast family. And I cannot wait for you to meet Morgan Housel and get the best financial advice you'll ever hear.

摩根·豪塞尔是当今最受尊敬、最值得信赖且知识渊博的金融思想家之一。他是《纽约时报》畅销书作家，著作销量超过900万册，被翻译成60多种语言。他的《金钱心理学》是第一本真正让我明白理财成功不在于数学计算，而在于行为习惯的个人理财书籍。

Morgan Housel is one of the most reputable, trusted, and knowledgeable financial minds out there today. Morgan is a New York Times bestselling author whose books have sold over 9,000,000 copies. They've been translated into more than 60 languages. His book, The Psychology of Money, was the first personal finance book to truly explain to me that doing well with money, it's really not about math. It's about behavior.

我简直爱死这本书了。我反复阅读过多次，给我们三个成年子女每人送了一本，还经常作为礼物赠送给他人。我花了整整一年时间才邀请到摩根来参加这期播客。

I absolutely love that book. I've read it multiple times. I've given it to all three of our adult kids. I give it out as a gift to other people. It took me a year to get Morgan here on this podcast.

现在我要激动地告诉大家，他不仅来了，还带着他的重磅新作《花钱的艺术》——这本书揭示了一个简单却深刻的真相：包括你我在内的大多数人，既不知道如何花钱，也不明白为何会把钱花在那些愚蠢的事情上。今天我们就将深入探讨这个问题。摩根是《华尔街日报》和《The Motley Fool》的获奖专栏作家，今天他特意搭乘飞机横越全国，在繁忙的日程中抽空来到这里，只为给你带来前所未闻的最佳理财建议。

And I am so thrilled to tell you that he's not only here, but he is here to release his brand new book, The Art of Spending Money, which tackles a simple but powerful truth. Most of us, including you and me, don't know how to spend money or why we spend money on the stupid things that we do. Well, today, we're gonna dig into that. Morgan is an award winning columnist at The Wall Street Journal and The Motley Fool. And today, he jumped on a plane, he flew across country, and he made time in his crazy busy schedule to be here for one reason, to give you the best financial advice you'll ever hear.

现在请大家和我一起欢迎摩根·豪塞尔来到《梅尔·罗宾斯播客》。

So please help me welcome Morgan Housel to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

谢谢邀请，梅尔。很荣幸来到这里。

Thanks for having me, Mel. Happy to be here.

你能来我太高兴了。感谢你专程乘飞机赶来。我是你的超级粉丝，必须特别感谢我丈夫克里斯托弗·罗宾斯，是他最先向我推荐了你的《金钱心理学》，这本书改变了我的生活。我对你的新作《花钱的艺术》充满期待。

I am so glad you're here. Thank you for jumping on a plane. I'm a huge fan. I gotta give a shout out to my husband Christopher Robbins because he was the one who first introduced me to your work, The Psychology of Money Changed My Life. I am so excited for your new blockbuster, The Art of Spending Money.

稍后我们会深入探讨你那些畅销巨作的所有精华要点。但摩根，我想先请你直接对正在收听这期节目的听众说几句话：如果他们全盘接纳你即将分享的智慧，并将其应用到生活中，他们自己或他们关心的、与之分享本期节目的人，生活会发生怎样的改变？

And we're gonna get into all the takeaways from your mega bestsellers. But I wanted to start by asking you, Morgan, if you could speak directly to the person who is here spending time together with us right now and share with them what could be different about their life or the life of somebody that they care about that they share this episode with if they take everything to heart that you're about to share with us and teach us today and apply it to their life?

我认为，你能否感到富足、感到富有、实现财务自由，完全掌握在你自己手中。无论你是谁、来自哪里、收入多少、从事什么职业，你都能做到。而我们世世代代都在告诉自己，要想变得富有，你必须拥有正确的教育背景，必须从事正确的职业，必须出身于正确的家庭。

I think it would be that your ability to feel wealthy, to feel rich, to be financially independent is absolutely in your control. It doesn't matter who you are, where you're from, how much money you make, what your job is, you can do it. And we I think we've told ourselves for generations that in order to become rich, you have to have the right educational background. You have to have the right career. You have to come from the right family.

但我不认为这是真的。这与你的聪明程度无关，而在于你如何看待金钱，在于你的行为方式——而行为是每个人都能掌控的。

And I don't think it's it's true. It's not about how smart you are. It's about how you think about money. It's about how you behave, and behavior is in everybody's control.

不知道为什么我相信你，但我确实信了。真的，无论你负债多少，无论年龄多大，你都可以学习——这正是我从你著作中提炼出的、改变我人生的重大启示之一：它彻底改变了我与金钱的关系、我对金钱的认知方式、储蓄方式和消费方式。起点根本不重要。我从你那里学到的第一课就是：你可以驾驭金钱。你坚信这一点。

I don't know why I believe you, but I do. Like, like, I literally no matter how in debt you are, no matter how old you are, you can learn, and that's kinda one of the big lessons I'm gonna talk about that I've distilled from your work that has changed my life and my relationship with money and the way I think about money, the way I save it, the way I spend it. It doesn't matter the starting point at all. Lesson number one that I've learned from you you can get good with money. You believe that.

我见证过无数次这样的例子。举个典型案例：一个普通人没受过良好教育，甚至可能高中都没毕业，但只要具备良好的财务行为习惯，能够长远思考——

I've seen it time and time again, and there are so many examples of it. Let me give you this example here. An ordinary person doesn't have a good education. Maybe they didn't even graduate high school, let's say, but they have good financial behavior. They can think long term.

他们能控制预期，保持耐心，拥有这些行为特质。这样的人完全可以过得很好。而那个哈佛MBA毕业、在华尔街工作的人，拥有顶尖教育、人脉和经验，却可能轻易破产——现实中这样的人比比皆是。

They can keep their expectations in check. They're patient. They have those behavioral qualities. That person can do very well. But the person who went to Harvard and got an MBA and went to work on Wall Street has the best education, the best connections, the best experience, that person can easily go broke, and they do.

这种情况并不罕见。其他领域绝非如此：你无法想象一个没上过高中和大学的普通人，能比哈佛培养的心脏外科医生更擅长做开胸手术。这绝无可能。

Not uncommon for that to happen. And that is not true in other fields. It is impossible to think of an ordinary person who didn't go to high school, didn't go to college, performing open heart surgery better than a Harvard trained doctor. That's impossible. That will never happen.

但在金钱领域确实存在这种现象，因为这无关知识储备。你不需要掌握秘密公式，不需要特殊人脉。只要端正行为方式和思维方式，你就能成功：保持耐心、控制预期、不与他人攀比，把金钱视为改善生活的工具而非衡量自我价值的标尺。

But it does happen with money, because it's not about what you know. You don't need to know the secret formulas. You don't need to have secret connections. If you just get your behavior right and your thinking right, you can do well. Patience, keeping your expectations in check, not comparing yourself to other people, using money as a tool to live a better life instead of a yardstick to measure yourself against others by.

这其实非常简单，全在于你的心态。我认为99%关于如何打理好钱财的知识都掌握在你自己手中。

It's very simple stuff, and it's all in your head. And it's I think it's 99% of what people need to know to do well with money is in your control.

嗯，我过去很长一段时间都犯了个错误——尤其是在接触你的观点之前——我总以为存在某种致富秘方，认为富人有个秘密俱乐部，关键在于人脉和学历。而我最欣赏你观点的地方在于，你直截了当地说：不。不。不。不。

Well, I think one of the mistakes that I made for a very long time, particularly before I bumped into your work, is I believed that there was some secret formula, that there was some private club for rich people, that it was about who you know, where you went to school. And what I love about your work is that you basically say, no. No. No. No.

你们关注点完全错了。其实有些具体行为准则，学会就能帮你管好钱。

You're focusing on the wrong stuff. There are actual behaviors that we can learn that will help you get good with money.

没错。而且这些准则并不复杂，完全由你掌控。不是说它们容易做到，但确实很简单。我就举几个例子——

Exactly. And they're not that difficult either. They're in your control. It's not to say that they're easy, but they're simple. And so just just a couple of the behaviors.

如果你能专注于自己的目标而非盲目攀比；如果能存点钱，量入为出地生活；如果能投资并保持耐心。就这些。我刚才说的简直是幼儿园级别的清单，不是什么希腊公式，也不是华尔街黑话。

If you have an ability to focus internally on your own goals rather than constantly comparing yourself against others, if you can save a little bit of your money, live even slightly below your means, Invest that money and be patient. Just those things. Just those very that's a kindergarten list of topics that I just gave you. It's not a bunch of Greek formulas. It's not a bunch of Wall Street gibberish.

不是什么缩写术语。就是些非常基本的东西。另外也要重新定义财务成功的含义——我说的不是私人岛屿和私人飞机。对大多数人而言，如果你问他们终极财务目标是什么？

It's not a bunch of acronyms. These are very simple things, and that's it. Part of this too is redefining what what I mean by financially successful. I'm not talking private islands and private jets. But for most people, what they actually want if you said, what is your ultimate financial goal?

他们会说：想给家人稳定的住所；想有点应急存款应对失业或医疗危机；希望将来能体面退休；想多陪陪孩子。这些都是非常好的财务目标，而这种程度的财富与成功，我认为人人都能掌控。

They would say, I wanna have a stable housing for myself and my family. I wanna have a little bit of cushion to fall back onto if I were to get laid off or have a medical emergency. I wanna be able to have a dignified retirement someday. I wanna be able to spend time with my kids. Those are very good financial goals, and that level of wealth and success, I think, is in within everybody's control.

嗯，你说过想教我们如何将金钱作为工具使用。是的，是为了过上更好的生活，而不是用它作为衡量标准。

Well, you said you wanted to teach us how to use money as a tool Yes. To live a better life versus using it as a yardstick.

用来与他人比较的标尺。

To measure yourself against others by.

没错。而这正是你要教我们的核心内容之一，也是为什么这在当今如此重要。

Correct. And that's one of the core things you're gonna teach us how to do and why this is so important today.

当然。说起来容易做起来难。人们天生就爱互相比较。衡量我的成功程度时，不是看我拥有什么，而是看相比那个人我拥有多少。不是问我的房子住得舒不舒服，而是问我的房子比邻居、同事或兄弟姐妹的大多少。

Of course. And it's easier said than done. It is so natural for everybody to compare yourself against others. For me to measure my level of success by not saying what do I have, but by saying what do I have relative to that guy. Not how comfortable is my house, but by saying how big is my house relative to that person over there, to my neighbor, to my coworker, to my siblings.

如今这个问题比以往任何时候都更难克服的原因是：在我父母和祖父母那代，他们比较的对象仅限于邻居或同事，范围很小。或许再加上电视或广播里听到的几个人。但现在，包括我在内，大家的比较对象变成了Instagram或TikTok上最精致的算法推送内容。所以无论你过得多么好，房子多么棒，赚多少钱，只要你像其他人一样每天刷100次Instagram——

And one of the problems that makes it more difficult today than it's ever been is that it used to be for my parents' generation, my grandparents' generation, when they compared themselves to other people, it was relative to their neighbors or their coworkers. It was a pretty small group of people. Maybe a couple people who you saw on TV or heard about on the radio. But now today, just everybody, including myself, their comparison group is the most sophisticated algorithm on Instagram or TikTok. And so no matter how well you're doing, no matter how great your house is, no matter how much money you're making, you turn on Instagram a 100 times a day like everybody else.

打开软件，总会看到比你更光鲜、更快乐、更成功、更美丽的人。因此这个话题历来重要，而在今天尤为关键。控制期望值这个概念变得前所未有的重要，因为如今人们的期望值比以往任何时候都更容易失控。

You open it up, and there is somebody out there who looks better, happier, more successful, more beautiful than you are. And so this topic, I think, has always been true. It's always been important. It is more important today than it's ever been. The idea of keeping your expectations in check, because it's easier today than it's ever been to let your expectations just spiral out of control.

我从自己九岁的儿子身上就看到了这点。我小时候，普通人开旧皮卡，富人开新皮卡——这就是我脑海中的定义。而我儿子的财富认知却是私人飞机和私人岛屿，因为他总看Mr.Beast这类视频。

I see this with my own kids, my nine year old son. When I was growing up, normal people drove old pickup trucks, and rich people drove new pickup trucks. That was that was like the definition in my head. Like, if you had a new pickup truck, like, oh, there's there's a rich person. My son who's nine, his definition of rich is like a private jet in a private island because he watches Mr.

野兽，这就像是，哦，大家围坐一圈，你就能赢得百万美元的那种——这完全超出了我二三十年前的预期水平。所以这

Beast, and it's like, oh, sit in a circle, and you win a million bucks kind of it's a completely different level of expectations than even I had twenty or thirty years ago. And so it's

而你将面临的最大困难是，摩根，尽管你是地球上最具说服力的金融专家之一，你的孩子们却不会听你的。不，当然不会。

And the hardest thing you're gonna have is that even though you're one of the most compelling financial experts on the planet, your kids won't listen to you, Morgan. No. Of course not.

当然不会。不。

Of course not. No.

我认为这是一个非常重要的起点，因为你已经提供了许多宝贵的见解。其中之一就是培养一种技能，即向内寻找对你真正重要的东西，而不是向外看野兽先生、社交算法上的内容或邻居开什么车作为衡量标准。但你确实提到了这种落后感。是的。

I think that's really important place to start because you have already dropped so many takeaways. And one of them was developing a skill set of looking inside yourself for what matters rather than looking outside yourself at Mr. Beast or what's on the social algorithm or what your neighbor is driving for that yardstick. But you did mention this sense that you're falling behind. Yeah.

尤其是现在，很多人都有这种落后感。我的意思是，我有一个26岁和一个24岁的孩子，他们已经觉得，好吧，我赚的钱不够多，我怎么能买得起房子，我怎么能负担得起生活？如果听众有这种落后感，尤其是如果你年纪较大，你会说已经太晚了。就像，我已经搞砸了，摩根。

And so many people today in particular are feeling like they're falling behind. I mean, I have we have a 26 year old and a 24 year old, and they are already feeling as though, okay. I'm not making enough money, and how am I ever gonna buy a house, and how am I gonna pay for a life? If the person listening has that sense that they're falling behind, particularly if you're older and you say it's too late. Like, I've already blown it, Morgan.

你现在想让他们听到什么？

What do you want them to hear right now?

我认为有几点。首先是同理心。因为生活中确实有一些领域，尤其是许多二三十岁和四十多岁的人，相对于前几代人来说正在落后，特别是像拥有住房这样的事情。嗯。在前几代人那里更容易实现，而最近几年却变得特别困难。是的。

I think there's a couple of things. One is empathy. Because there are areas in life where particularly a lot of people in their twenties, thirties, and forties are falling behind relative to previous generations, particularly something like homeownership Mhmm. Where it was more attainable in previous generations than it is has been particularly in the last couple of years. Yep.

关于同理心。我并不是在说，哦，你应该感觉好点。你应该对你所拥有的更加感激。你其实做得还不错。这里必须包含一些同理心。

So empathy. This is not me saying, oh, you should just feel better. You should be more grateful for what you have. You you actually are doing fine. There is some empathy that has to be involved here.

对于那些原本以为能在某个年龄退休的人，现在生活成本大幅上涨，或者医疗账单堆积如山，他们意识到，天哪，我没有足够的钱退休。因此，重要的是要认识到，这些都是人们现在非常真实的感受。那么，如果我们从同理心开始，接下来该怎么做，摩根？

And also for people that thought they were gonna be able to retire at a certain age and then the cost of living has gone up so much or medical bills are at a certain state that you're realizing, oh my god, I don't have enough money to be able to retire. And so it is important to basically go, these are very real feelings that people have right now. And so if we start with empathy, where do we go next, Morgan?

我认为从同理心开始是因为，如果有人觉得自己落后了，那就是他们的真实感受。但同样重要的是要认识到，所有的幸福都只是期望与现实之间的差距。

Well, I think you start with empathy because if somebody feels like they're falling behind, that's their truth. But I think it's it's important to realize too that all happiness is just the gap between expectations and reality.

好的。再说一遍。所有的幸福都是

Alright. Say that again. All happiness is

所有的幸福，没错。是期望与现实之间的差距。你过着你现在的生活。你期待过上某种生活。在这两者之间，你可以找到某种程度的幸福。

All happiness Yep. Is the gap between expectations and reality. You have the life you're living. You have the life you expect to live. In between there is is is where you can find some level of happiness.

这个差距越大，你就会感到越痛苦。

The wider that gap is, the more miserable you're gonna feel.

好的。那么我们来谈谈那些原本以为自己的储蓄会更充足，现在却开始恐慌的人，他们担心钱会在去世前用完，或者无法退休。如果这就是现实，你如何运用这个关于幸福的定义？

Okay. So let's talk about somebody who is in a situation where they thought they would be further along with their savings, and they're starting to panic because they're worried that their money's gonna run out before they die or they're not gonna be able to retire. How do you use that happiness definition right now if that's the reality?

这并非对每个人都适用。这不是非黑即白的问题，但确实存在大量此类情况。我想说，在大多数这类案例中，人们未能如预期般储蓄的原因在于，多年来他们的期望可能已失控膨胀。他们花费超出应有范围，因为他们试图追逐理想中的自我形象，即便那未必是他们负担得起的生活方式。于是他们租住高档公寓，只因觉得那才是自己该有的样子，并不断与他人比较，即便这已超出预算。

This is not true for everybody. This is not black and white, but there are a lot of these cases. I would say the majority of these cases where the reason that person has not been able to save as much as they thought is because their expectations for many years probably have been spiraling out of control. And they were spending more money than they should have been because they were trying to chase who they wanted to be even if it wasn't necessarily the level of lifestyle that they could afford. And so they were renting an apartment that was very nice because they had an expectation that that's where they should be, and they're comparing themselves to other people, even if it was kind of out of their budget.

他们以某种方式旅行、穿衣打扮、外出就餐，只因觉得那才是自己应有的状态，即便实际上负担不起。

They were traveling and dressing and eating out in a way because that's who they felt that they should be even if they couldn't necessarily afford it.

摩根，你这是在点名批评我们啊。

Morgan, you're calling us out here.

我是在点醒所有人。是的，我自己也曾陷入这种处境。这没什么可耻的，我认为这是大家都会经历的普遍现象。

I'm calling everybody out. Yes. I've I've been in this situation too. There's no shame in it. This is a very common thing that I think everyone will experience.

我想我之所以对这个话题产生兴趣，我写的每本书都始于自我审视：我何时产生过嫉妒？何时让期望失控？没人能对此免疫，这根本不值得羞愧。

And I think a lot of why I got interested in this topic, every book that I've written started with looking in the mirror and being like, when have I been envious? When have my expectations spiraled out of control? No one is immune to this. There's nothing to be ashamed of here.

所以某种程度上...因为，坦白说，我结婚时带着丈夫不知情的1万美元信用卡债务，之后还继续隐瞒。没错。但事实就是我拿着信用卡走进商店，用没有的钱买不需要的东西。即便后来我41岁时，丈夫的餐厅倒闭连带赔上我们的房子和全部积蓄，真相是我们确实花了很多不该花的钱。

So there's a little bit of because because, you know, just in full disclosure, I entered my marriage with 10,000 of credit card debt that my husband did not know about and then proceeded to hide it from him. Yep. But the truth is I just walked my credit card into stores and bought stuff I didn't need with money I didn't have. Right. And then even if I look at what happened to my husband and I when I was 41 years old and his restaurants were going under and taking our house and our entire life savings with it, the truth is we did spend a lot of money we didn't have.

是啊。

Yeah.

我们确实累积了那些债务。我记得几年后当我们开始逐步摆脱困境时，当我能够对自己说‘我要为这个烂摊子负责’时，有一种解脱感。我能看清当时是如何做出愚蠢决定的，因为我对事情的发展抱有过高的期望。而用一种奇怪的方式向自己承认这一点，让我觉得，既然我有能力做出愚蠢的决定，那么如果我清醒过来并认识到这一点，我也有能力做出更好的决定。

We did rack up that debt. And I remember several years later as we were starting to climb our way out, there was a level of relief when I could say to myself both, I'm responsible for this mess. I can see how I made dumb decisions at the time because I had outsized expectations for how I thought things were gonna go. And admitting it to myself in a weird way made me feel like, well, if I've got the power to make dumb decisions, then maybe if I wake up and recognize that, I've got the power to make better decisions.

是的。这绝对正确。对很多人来说，期望的问题是——

Yes. That's that's absolutely true. What happens with expectations for a lot of people

没错。

Yep.

看，如果我说‘我想成为一个好10%的爸爸’，这是个不错的目标。但这具体意味着什么？这到底是什么意思？

Is look. If I said, I wanna be a 10% better dad. That's a good goal. But what does that mean? What does that even mean?

我该如何追踪这个目标？如何衡量？这根本不可能。但如果我说‘我现在住一居室，想要换成两居室’，这就很明确。

How how do I track that? How do I measure? That's impossible. But if I said, I want I'm living in a one bedroom apartment, and I want a two bedroom apartment. That that makes sense.

如果我说‘想要三条新牛仔裤’，这很容易理解。金钱是如此可量化。你可以直接说‘现在我每小时赚20美元，想提高到25美元’。

If I said, want three new pairs of jeans. That's easy to wrap your head around. Money is so quantifiable. It's so easy to just say, right now, I'm making $20 an hour. I wanna get to 25.

明白了。

Got it.

我能如此迅速地衡量它，以至于它变成了一种我们追逐金钱的东西，因为它太容易衡量了。我们追逐消费，因为它太容易理解背景了。所以，如果你不清楚什么是美好的生活，很容易就会说美好的生活就是我有更多的钱，因为这比如何成为一个更好的父亲、更好的父母、更好的配偶、更好的朋友、更好的工作者要容易理解得多。那些问题让人难以捉摸。

I can measure it so quickly that it becomes this thing where we chase money because it's so easy to measure. We chase spending because it's so easy to contextualize. And so if you don't have a good idea of what a good life looks like, it's very easy to just say a good life is one in which I have more money Because it's so much easier to understand than how can I become a better dad? How can I become a better parent, a better spouse, a better friend, a better worker? That's hard to wrap your head around.

威尔·史密斯有一个我认为非常敏锐且深刻的观点。他在自传中写道，当他抑郁且贫穷时，他可以告诉自己，只要我有更多的钱，我所有的问题都会消失。这给了他希望。我只需要出去赚更多的钱。

Will Smith had this great I thought he was so astute and profound. He wrote this in his biography. He said, when he was depressed and poor, he could tell himself, if only I had more money, all my problems would go away. And that gave him hope. I just need to go out and make more money.

一旦我有了更多的钱，我所有的抑郁、所有的疑虑都会消失。然后他变得富有，但他仍然抑郁。然后他说他失去了希望，因为他不能再告诉自己只要我有更多的钱。所以我们追逐金钱，因为它太容易理解了。我们追逐它，认为它是解决所有问题的答案。

And once I have more money, all of my depression, all of my doubts will go away. And then he became rich, and he was still depressed. And then he said he lost hope because he couldn't say if only I had more money. And so we chase money because it's so easy to wrap our heads around. And we chase it with the idea that it's the solution to all of our problems.

即使它能解决一些问题，但不是最大的那些，你试图填补的那个洞，那个心理上的空洞，很可能不会被

Even if it can solve some problems, but not the biggest ones, the hole that you're trying to fill, the psychological hole that you're trying to fill is probably not going to be

金钱填满。所以，我从你刚才分享的更深刻的观点中得出的结论是，如果你坐在那里听，并且说，我太落后了，我太落后了，我太落后了，有两件事要做。首先，你来对地方了，因为我们将从你那里学习该怎么做，摩根。你首先说的一件事是，这还不算太晚，因为有一些简单的，你甚至说是幼儿园水平的行为改变。是的。你可以做出这些改变，帮助你更好地处理金钱。

filled with money. So the takeaway that I've got from what you just shared, which is much deeper, is that if you're sitting there listening and you're saying, I'm so behind, I'm so behind, I'm so behind, there's two things to do. First of all, you're in the right place because we're gonna be learning from you exactly what to do, Morgan. And one of the first things you said is, it's not too late because there are simple, you even said kindergarten level behavior changes Yep. That you can make that will help you be good with money.

但更深层次的问题是问自己，金钱试图为我填补的那个洞是什么？

But the deeper thing to ask yourself is, what is the hole that money is trying to fill for me?

是的。

Yes.

那么，在我二十多岁或六十多岁时，有没有什么事情可以重新定义什么是好朋友、什么是好生活，或者如何更好地照顾自己，而不必为财务状况过度自责。

And are there things that I can do right now in terms of redefining what it means in my twenties or my sixties to be a good friend or to have a good life or to take better care of myself that don't involve hitting myself over the head about my financial life.

没错。就是这样。

Exactly. That's it.

明白了。在我们深入探讨具体策略之前，我想说的是，当前这个时间点，在金钱、财务、就业市场方面确实非常具有挑战性。如果你真的认同那种‘我其实很害怕’的感觉——我害怕找不到工作，害怕无法维持生计。

Got it. You know, one of the things I wanna talk about before we really start unpacking some of the tactics is that at this exact moment in time, it is a really challenging moment when it comes to money, finances, the job market. If you really identify with that sense that I'm actually scared. I'm scared I can't get a job. I'm scared about being able to make it.

摩根，你建议从哪里开始？

Where do you start, Morgan?

我认为如果有人表示‘我对自己的财务状况感到害怕’，是的，这是他们的真实感受，你需要共情。但如果有人说‘现在比前几代人更糟糕’，这个观点可以稍加反驳。你可以问‘具体怎么个糟糕法？’因为回顾1950、60和70年代的生活水平就会发现——

I think if somebody says I'm scared about my money Yeah. That's their truth, you have to empathize with that. If someone were to say, it is worse now than it was for previous generations, that I think you can push back on a little bit more. And you can say How so? Because you could look back at how people lived in the nineteen fifties and the nineteen sixties and the nineteen seventies and say, look.

我完全理解你现在的恐惧。但说我们今天比前几代人过得差，这很可能不符合事实。有意思的是，如果你问大多数美国人‘中产阶级繁荣的巅峰是什么时候？黄金年代是何时？’很多人会指向1950年代，认为那是中产阶级最鼎盛的时期。

I I empathize with how scared you are today. It is probably not true that we are worse off today than we were in previous generations. You know, I one thing that I've always thought is very interesting is if you ask most Americans, when was peak middle class prosperity? When was when were the glory days? Lot of people will point to the lot of people will point to the nineteen fifties is what they'll point at as peak middle class prosperity.

但耐人寻味的是，如果我们观察1950年代普通中产阶级家庭的生活水平——那个我们渴望回归的时代——其生活质量在今天看来简直是赤贫。那时候普通中产家庭的房子约800平方英尺（约74平方米），两间卧室要住夫妻和四个孩子，没有空调，没有洗衣烘干机。

But what's interesting is that if you looked at how the average middle class family lived in the nineteen fifties and who we are aspiring to wanna go back to. It is a quality of life that we would consider abject poverty today. Mean, the average middle class family house in nineteen fifties was about 800 square feet for you for, you know, two bedrooms for you and your four kids. No air conditioning. No washer and dryer.

不，让我们回顾一下过去的样子。那时他们非常快乐，对现状非常满足，但那种满足感放到今天你可能无法体会。所以金融的很多问题在于，这些东西未必能让你更快乐。

No. Go on down the list of what it was like back then. They were very happy. They were very content with it back then, but it's not a level of contentment that you would have today. And so a lot of what what is with with finance is that it's not necessarily that these things will make you happier.

即使你拥有更多金钱，也不一定会更快乐。当大多数人想着'要是我有更大的房子就会快乐'，或是想象自己享受豪华假期时，你以为那会是幸福——但你真正期待的情绪并非快乐。

If you were to have more money. It's not necessarily that you would be happier. And that when most people think, oh, if only I had a bigger house, then I'd be happy. And when you imagine yourself taking a fancy vacation, you imagine how happy you would be. The emotion that you're actually thinking about is not happiness.

而是满足感。如果我幻想明年带着孩子去夏威夷，脑海里浮现这个场景时，内心涌起的情绪是'那该多好啊，我会非常快乐'——但实际上，我憧憬的是那种知足的状态：在夏威夷感叹'这就足够了'。

It's contentment. If I imagine myself in Hawaii with my kids next year, and I'm just envisioning that in my head, I can come up with this emotion inside and be like, oh, that would be great. I would be so happy with that. But actually, the emotion that I'm envisioning is being content with that. It's being in Hawaii and saying, this is enough.

这就是我想要的全部，别无他求。但现实中，真带孩子去夏威夷的人会坐在沙滩上抱怨：'要是住更好的酒店就好了''要是多呆几天就好了''昨晚该去更高档的餐厅'。

This is all I want. I don't want anything else. What actually happens to people if they do go to Hawaii with their kids is they're sitting on the beach and and they say, if only I had stayed at the nicer hotel. If only we had stayed for a couple days longer. If only we had eaten at the nice nicer restaurant last night.

为什么那些人能住更好的房间？为什么他们的沙滩椅更舒适？你其实并不满足于当下的体验。当你意识到自己真正追求的是知足，而非更多物质时——你只是在寻求'对已有之物的满足感'。

How come those people got a better room? How come they got better beach chairs? And so you're not actually content with the experience that you're having. And so when you realize that what you're actually chasing is contentment, you're not chasing more. You're chasing just, I I just wanna be happy with what I have.

第一步要明白：你的财务困境、落后焦虑、以及现实与理想的差距，很大程度上都源于你的期望值。

The first step is realizing that a lot of your money woes and a lot of what you're feeling in terms of falling behind and a lot of your gap between what you have and what you want is solely a factor of your expectations.

但如果自认为不擅长理财呢？比如我长期自我暗示'我就是不会管钱'。假设某人经历离婚后财务崩溃，曾把经济大权交给伴侣，现在要重头开始——真的有人能彻底学会理财吗？

What if you don't think you're good with money, though? Like, because for a long time, I had a story in my head, I'm just not good with money. Like, I'm bad with money. And let's say you're somebody who's gone through a divorce, you're financially wrecked, you gave all the power to your partner, now you're starting over. Can anyone get good with money for real?

如果你想，你当然可以。我认为那些说‘我不擅长理财’的人其实是不愿意去学。他们只是把这当作借口来

You can if you want to. I And think the people who say, I'm not good with money don't want to be. That's they they use that as their excuse to

说 得了吧。真的吗？

say Come on now. Really?

我认为他们以此为借口。理解这件事并不难，这是非常基础的算术。花的比赚的少，存下差额。

I think that they use that as their excuse. This is not a difficult thing to wrap your head around. This is very basic arithmetic. Spend less money than you make. Save the difference.

要有耐心。就是这样。这就是我们在讨论的。你甚至可以向五岁小孩解释清楚。所以如果你说‘我不擅长理财’，那其实是你选择不去进步。

Be patient. That's that's it. That's what we're talking about. You can explain this to a five year old. And so if you're saying I'm not good with money, it's you're making a choice to not get better.

没有什么比养成你想要的糟糕财务习惯更容易了。我们生活在一个很容易超支的社会里。很多人愿意给你信用卡，给你贷款。养成糟糕的财务习惯非常容易。如果你想要那样，那很简单。

Nothing is easier than bad financial habits that you want to have. Like, we live in a society that it's very easy to overspend. A lot of people are willing to give you credit cards, give you debt. It is very easy to have bad financial habits. And if you want those, that's an easy thing to do.

只要你真正想要改变，这对任何人来说都不是难事。

As soon as you actually want it, this is not a difficult thing for anybody.

这次对话让我想起一位音乐家说过的话。真希望我记得是谁。我看到一位音乐家说，大家都喜欢听我讲刚起步时不得不在车里住一年的故事，但实际上没人真的想住在自己车里

This conversation reminds me of something that I saw a musician say. Wish I could remember who it was. But I saw a musician saying, everybody loves it when I tell the story about how I had to live in my car for a year while I was just starting out, but nobody actually wants to live in their car

因为从来没有人愿意这么做。

for Nobody ever wants to do it.

当他们刚开始的时候。

While they're starting out.

没错。对于那些负债累累的人来说，很多事情——你也是其中一员，我能理解你的感受——确实需要做出牺牲才能摆脱困境。这可能意味着生活水平要相对你过去习惯的有所下降。所以很多说自己不擅长理财的人，我认为他们实际上是在说：我不愿意为此做出牺牲。

Right. And so a lot of these things for people who are in debt, you you you are one of these people, you can empathize with this, I know, is that, yes, it's going to be a sacrifice to get out of this. This might require a downshift in lifestyle relative to what you were used to. And so for a lot of people who say I'm not good with money, I think what they're what they're actually saying is I don't wanna make the sacrifice. I'm unwilling to make the sacrifice to do it.

我认为这是事实。你喜欢那个住在车里的人的故事，原因在于人们其实热爱为崇高目标而受苦的叙事——甚至渴望亲身实践。这在人类诸多方面都成立：只要目标足够崇高，人们非常愿意承受艰辛、付出汗水。

And I think that is that is true. Now what is true, the reason that you like the story about the guy living in the car is because I think people actually love stories or doing this themselves of suffering for a noble goal. I think this is true in so many aspects of humanity that it's not that people like, humans are very willing to suffer and put in hard work and sweat if the goal is noble enough.

我在想，理财的崇高目标是否应该是为了让生活更满足，而非单纯追求财富。

I'm wondering if the noble goal for getting good with money is so that you'll be content with your life, not so that you'll make a lot of money.

对我而言，崇高目标始终是——我相信对大多数人也是如此——独立。我对豪宅豪车式的富裕毫无兴趣，只渴望每天醒来都能说：今天我可以做任何想做的事。

To me, the noble goal, what it's always been for myself, and I think this is true for majority of people, is independence. I have no desire to be rich in the sense of a big, a giant house, flashy cars. I I have no desire to live that life. I wanna be independent. I wanna wake up every morning and say, I can do whatever I want today.

金钱只是实现这个目标的工具。这与追求大房子截然不同——这是关于独立的追求。我身无分文的岳祖母，就活出了彻底的独立。

And I'm using money as a tool to foster that. That's always been my goal. Now that's very different from saying, I want a bigger house, or I want a house. You know, it's it's it's a goal of independence. And my grandmother-in-law who had no money was completely independent.

她不屈从于任何人的影响，只听从自己的内心，因此活出了精彩人生。世上有亿万富翁，甚至有十亿富翁，却完全受制于他人的看法与影响。对许多人而言，金钱是财务资产，却是心理负债——它彻底支配了他们的身份认同与存在本质。

She was beholden to no one else's influence but her own, And she lived an amazing life because of it. There are billionaires. There are deca billionaires out there who are completely beholden to the opinions and the influence of other people. And so there are a lot of people for whom money is a is a financial asset, but it's a psychological liability. It completely controls their identity and who they are.

而另一些人虽无巨额财富，却毫无心理负担，完全掌控着自己的人格与目标。我常思考这个不完美的假设：如果流落荒岛，只有我和家人，无人见证我的生活——看不见我的房子，看不见我的车...

And there's other people who actually don't have that much money, but they have no psychological liability. They're in complete control over their personality and their goals. I've often used this, it's a very imperfect idea, but I think about if I was on a deserted island, maybe with just me and my family, nobody else could see how I was living. Nobody else could see my house. Nobody else could see my car.

在完全不被外界注视的情况下，我会选择怎样的生活方式？这种情境下，我相信包括我在内的大多数人，都会立即从追求地位转向追求实用——既然无人观赏，地位对我毫无意义。

It's completely invisible to everybody else. What kind of lifestyle would I live? If nobody else was watching, what kind of lifestyle would I choose to live? And in that situation, myself, and I think most people, would instantly shift from status to utility. I have no interest in status if nobody can watch it.

我追求的是实用价值。因此理想的住宅与座驾，会立刻从「他人羡慕什么」转向「真正能为家人创造美好生活」——这两者天差地别。即便年入上亿，若总在追赶他人，仍会感到落后。喜剧演员吉米·卡尔有句妙语：『人人嫉妒你拥有的，没人在意你怎么获得的』。

I have interest in utility. And so the kind of house that I would wanna live in, the kind of car that I would drive, would instantly shift from what are other people impressed by towards what is actually gonna foster a good life for myself and my family, and they're very different things. You could be you can make a $100,000,000 a year and feel like you're falling behind if you're chasing other people. There's a great quote from the comedian Jimmy Carr where he says, everybody is jealous of what you've got. Nobody is jealous of how you got it.

这又引出一个关键点：我们很容易看着更成功的人幻想『若达到那种成就，我肯定更幸福』。因为我们看得见他们的豪宅、名车、华服...

And that's another one of these points. It's very easy for me or or you to look at people who are more successful than we are and say, if we had that level of success, I would be happier. Because when we look at them, I can I can see your house? I can see your car. I can see your clothes.

我们看得见物质成功的表象，却看不见背后付出的艰辛、承受的压力，以及通往成功的真实代价。这正是我们对他人产生财务嫉妒的问题根源——你根本不了解他们生活的全貌，也不知道金钱之外发生了什么。这也解释了为何某些反直觉的研究结果令人难以置信...

I can see the material aspect of your success. Yep. I cannot see the hard work and the stress of how you got it and what it took and what it took to get there. So this is one of the problems with envy and financial envy that we have for other people is that you don't have a good sense of what their life was and what else is going on in their life outside of of money. And this is why some of the studies that are so hard to wrap your head around, it's so hard to even believe that these are true.

那些研究表明：富有人群的幸福程度，远低于你的想象。

The studies that show that people who are wealthy are not necessarily as happy as you would think they would be.

但问题是，当我听到那项研究时，我就想，谁在乎呢？因为我只想变得富有。你懂我的意思吗？就像，让他们不开心去吧。

But here's the thing. When I hear that study, I'm like, who cares? Because I just wanna be wealthy. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm like, let them be unhappy.

我会成为那个既富有又快乐的人。我向你保证，摩根。

I'll be the one person who's wealthy who's happy. I promise you, Morgan.

是啊。或者很多人会说，好吧，那可能是真的，但让我自己体验一下。没错。他们就像在说，让我达到那个境界。

Yeah. Or there's a lot of people who say, okay. That might be true, but let me experience it myself. Yes. They're like they're like, let me get there.

因为我认为这种渴望在我们脑海中根深蒂固——只要我有更多钱，这些问题就会消失。看起来这怎么可能不是真的？而经历过的人会说，不，它可能是真的，但远比你想象的要有限得多。

Because I think the pull is so profound in our heads that if only I had more money, these problems would go away. It seem it seems like how could that not be true? And I think the people who have experienced it would say, no. It can be true, just much less than you thought.

作为一名拥有二十多年研究、写作和教授这一主题经验的金融专家，你认为让人们一直贫穷的首要原因是什么？

As a financial expert with more than two decades of experience of research and writing and teaching this topic, what's the number one thing that keeps people broke?

就是那种强烈的攀比心理，总觉得别人拥有的比我多，过得比我好，比我更幸福。这种无休止的追逐没有尽头——你永远会说，只要我有这么多钱就满足了，只要我有更大的房子就满足了。一旦踏上这台跑步机，它就永无止境。

It's this overwhelming sense of keeping up with other people and this overwhelming sense of other people have more than I do, and they're doing better than I am, and they're happier than I am. And that treadmill has has no end. There there's no end to that treadmill where you're gonna say, if only I had this much money, then I'd be content. If only I had a bigger house, then I'd be content. Once you're on the treadmill, it's it goes on forever.

如果你深陷其中，几乎不可能觉得自己财务状况良好。无论加薪多少次都无法满足——买了更贵的衣服后又会觉得还不够。其实人对物质的需求可以很低，当然基本温饱之外还有更高需求。

And if you're on it, it's almost impossible to feel like you're doing well with money. There's no amount of satiation of if you got a raise, then then you'll be okay. If you if you bought if you bought these nicer clothes, then then I would be happy, then I would be content with it. You can be content with a pretty low level of material items. Of course, there's a basic need of food and shelter whatnot above what you need.

你进入了你想要的领域。

You move into the the realm of what you want.

嗯，我想我们都在那里。说实话，我们每个人都可以走进衣橱，发现大概有12件衣服是我们经常穿的。是的。其余的都是当时想要的，或者以为需要的，或者觉得参加婚礼时会给人留下好印象的，但实际上你并不需要。

Well, I think we're all there. Like, any one of us, if we're being honest with ourselves, can walk into our closet and say there are roughly 12 pieces of clothing that we wear all the time. Yes. And the rest of it were all things that I wanted in the moment or I thought I needed or I thought would impress somebody if I were going to a wedding, but you didn't actually need it.

而这正是让人们破产的原因。就这么简单。我觉得人们知道这一点。他们可能不想听，但他们知道，是你想要跟上别人的欲望在作祟。

And that is what keeps people broke. That's it. It's the simplest thing. I think people know it. They may not wanna hear it, but they know it, that it's your desire to keep up with other people.

摩根，这太棒了。你本人比书里写的还要出色，而你的书已经非常精彩了。所以接下来我们要做的是，先短暂休息一下，因为我想做两件事。一是给我们了不起的赞助商一个机会说几句话，但更重要的是，我想让你有机会把这期节目分享给你关心的人。

Morgan, this is so good. You're even better in real life than you are in your books, and your books are amazing. So here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna take a quick break because I wanna do two things. I wanna give our amazing sponsors a chance to share a few words, but more importantly, I wanna give you chance to share this episode with people that you care about.

每个人都需要听到他们这辈子最好的财务建议，而摩根今天就在这里分享。还有一件事，别走开，因为摩根才刚刚开始。接下来，他将分享让你一直破产的头号决定，以及如何从今天开始改变这一现状。嘿，我是你的朋友梅尔。你知道，当我写《让他们理论》这本书时，我知道它会帮助人们。

Everybody needs the best financial advice that they'll ever hear, and Morgan is here delivering it today. And one more thing, don't you go anywhere because Morgan's just getting started. And next up, he's gonna be sharing the number one decision that's keeping you broke and how you can change that fact starting today. Hey, it's your friend Mel. And you know, when I wrote the Let Them Theory book, I knew it would help people.

但我没想到会这样。连续37周稳居《纽约时报》畅销书排行榜第一名，而且还在继续。几乎全年在亚马逊排名第一，售出近七百万册，翻译成63种语言。简直难以置信。你想知道为什么它是世界上最畅销的书吗？

But I didn't expect this. Number one New York Times bestseller for thirty seven straight weeks and counting. Number one on Amazon for almost the entire year, almost seven million copies sold, 63 languages. It's unbelievable. Do you wanna know why it's the biggest book in the world?

我来告诉你为什么，因为它有效。当你说出两个简单的词——‘让他们’，你的整个生活就会变得更好。当你说出‘让我’这两个词时，你自己也会变得更好。《让他们理论》教会你如何保护自己的时间和精力，让你能专注于真正重要的事情——你的目标、梦想和幸福。

I'll tell you why, because it works. When you say two simple words, let them, your whole life changes for the better. When you say the two words, let me, you change for the better. The let them theory teaches you how to protect your time and energy so you can focus it on what actually matters. Your goals, your dreams, your happiness.

那你还等什么？立即访问melrobbins.com/letthem获取你的副本，或为你所爱的人购买一本。欢迎回来，我是你的朋友梅尔·罗宾斯。今天，我和摩根·豪塞尔在此与你一起，拆解你将听到的最重要的财务建议。

So what are you waiting for? Head to melrobbins.com/letthem to grab your copy today or get one for someone you love. Welcome back. It's your buddy, Mel Robbins. Today, you and I are here with Morgan Housel, and we are breaking down the most important financial advice you'll ever hear.

摩根，你的超级畅销书《金钱心理学》改变了我的生活，改变了我对金钱的思考方式，重塑了我的金钱观。我想给你读读第41页的内容，这是《永不知足》这一章。是的，你写道：‘最难的财务技能是让目标停止移动。’

So, Morgan, your mega bestseller, The Psychology of Money, changed my life, changed the way I think about money, changed my mindset about money. And I wanna read to you on page 41. This is the chapter Never Enough. Yep. And you write, The hardest financial skill is getting the goalpost to stop moving.

如果期望随结果水涨船高，那么追求更多就毫无逻辑，因为你额外努力后感受依旧。当拥有更多——更多金钱、权力、声望的滋味，让野心膨胀的速度快过满足感时，情况就变得危险。这种情况下，每前进一步，目标就远两步。你会觉得自己在落后，而赶上的唯一办法就是承担越来越大的风险。你能为我们解读一下吗？

If expectations rise with results, there is no logic in striving for more because you'll feel the same after putting in extra effort. It gets dangerous when the taste of having more, more money, more power, more prestige, increases ambition faster than satisfaction. In that case, one step forward pushes the goalpost two steps ahead. You feel as if you're falling behind and the only way to catch up is to take greater and greater amounts of risk. Can you unpack that for us?

听你读这段真有趣。我记得写下这些句子的情景，记得在弗吉尼亚家中地下室创作这本书时写下这些特定句子的时刻。我提到过，我写的内容很多是自我反思。

It's funny when you read that. I I remember writing those sentences. I remember where I was when I wrote those specific sentences. I was in my basement at a house in Virginia where I wrote this book. And, I I remember writing that and thinking I I mentioned this earlier, but so much of what I write about is self reflection.

并非我已掌握这些道理，试图炫耀聪明。我写这些是因为自己常陷入这种陷阱。期望的游戏确实没有终点，总有人比你更快致富。如果你的快乐钥匙总是‘要是我有那人拥有的东西’，你永远不会满足于已有的一切。

And it's not that I've mastered these things, and I'm just trying to show you how smart I am. It's like, I wrote that because I've fallen for that trap all all the time. It's true that the expectations game has has no ending. There's there's always somebody who is getting richer faster than you. And if you're always just seeking validation, if your key to happiness is always, if only I had what that person has, you're never gonna be satisfied with with what you have.

更危险的是，一旦形成‘只要拥有更多就会更快乐’的心态，这种欲望就会呈指数级增长。如果你告诉自己‘有1万美元我就快乐’，得到后又会想‘或许10万才行’。若幸运地达到，目标又变成‘也许要100万’。

And the the more dangerous thing, I think, is once you are once you have that mindset that if only I had more, I would be happier, then it kinda grows exponentially. Exponentially. Because if you tell yourself, I'll be happy once I have $10,000, and then you get 10,000, and you're like, oh, maybe it's a 100,000. May if if I had a $100,000, then I'd be happy. And then maybe you're fortunate enough to get that money, and then it's, oh, maybe it's a million.

它是呈指数级增长的。

It grows exponentially.

因此我也认为存在这样一种现象，至少在我身上发生过，当我开始感觉不再被巨额债务压垮，或者在工作中获得一些奖励，比如小额奖金之类的，我立刻就会提高原本购买物品的金额或消费档次。

And so I also think that there is this thing that happens, at least it happened for me, that as I started to feel like I wasn't under such crushing debt, or I got some reward at work, a small bonus, whatever, I immediately upticked the amount of money or the expense of the thing that I was already buying.

没错。而且我认为这其中部分行为是合理的。人们可以通过消费方式获得更多快乐。有些人可能会建议你‘消费永远不会让你更快乐，尽可能存下每一分钱’。

Right. And and part of that I think is is fine. I think people can spend money in a way that's gonna make them happier. There are some people who would give you the advice of like, it's never gonna make you happier. Just save everything that you can.

像苦行僧一样生活。但这并非我的观点。我认为消费可以带来价值——比如我在家庭开支中就发现有些消费确实物超所值。但回到关于期望值的讨论，我是在加州太浩湖周边长大的。

Live like a monk. And that that's not my message. I think you can spend money as in I I found ways of spending money in my own household. I'm like, oh, that was that was well worth it. But I also, back to the expectations thing, I grew up around Lake Tahoe, California.

嗯。

K.

那时还没有科技资本涌入，太浩湖和我居住的小镇特拉基并不富裕。如今因科技资本进入变得富庶，但当时完全是个中产阶级小镇。后来我去洛杉矶读大学，从中产阶级山区小镇切换到比弗利山庄这类区域的文化冲击令我难以置信。

And this was before tech money where Tahoe and Truckee, the town that I lived in, was not very wealthy. It is now because tech money came in. But back then, it was very much a middle class town. And then I I went to college in Los Angeles. And I couldn't believe making that shift from middle class mountain town to Beverly Hills kind of area.

这对我的认知——我对富裕的定义产生了巨大影响。如我之前所说，曾经我认为拥有一辆崭新的皮卡就是富人，一辆全新的F-150就是财富象征。但到了洛杉矶后，这个标准彻底崩塌——无论你多成功，即便开着兰博基尼等红灯时，周围还有17辆同款豪车。

What it did to my egg to my definition of rich. As I said earlier, it used to be that my definition of rich was a new pickup truck. A new a new f one fifty was that's a rich person. And I moved to LA, and it would just it just exploded. No no no matter how successful you are, you pull up to a stoplight, and even if you're driving a Lamborghini, there's 17 others right there.

你永远感觉不到满足。而那个中产阶级小镇的幸福条件要优越得多。不过我在洛杉矶时自认为做得还不错，始终控制着期望值——很大程度上是出于恐惧，我总害怕自己永远无法真正成功。

And you never feel like you're you're getting enough. And the conditions for happiness, I think, were much greater in that middle class town. Now I was I did a pretty good job in LA in my own mind of still keeping my expectations in check. I think a lot of that was fear. I always had a fear that I was never going to make it.

因此，我出于一种恐惧感，尽可能地节省。但当我观察其他人时，那些更快乐的人往往是过着简朴生活、享受家庭时光、与朋友共度美好时光、关注健康，相比他人过着非常朴素生活的人。所以我现在思考，你的抱负应该是什么？这在与父母交流时很有趣。如果你问父母，他们对孩子有什么期望？

And so I was saving as much as I could just out of a sense of, of fear. But if I look at everybody else, like who was happier, it was the people who were living a modest life, enjoyed their family, had good time with their friends, focused on their health, and lived what was by comparison to others, a very modest life. And so I think about that now of, what should your aspiration be? It's interesting with parents. If you ask parents, what do you want for your kids?

特别是当他们的孩子还小的时候。大多数父母会说，我只希望他们长大后快乐。然后如果你问，那你希望他们富有且成功吗？父母可能会说，嗯，那当然很好，但我只希望他们快乐。我认为父母这么说是因为他们知道这两者之间的区别。

Particularly if their kids are young. Most parents will say, I I I just want them to be happy when they're older. And then if you say, well, do you want them to be rich and successful? The parents will probably say, well, yeah, that would probably be great, but I just want them to be happy. And I think parents say that because you know there's a difference between the two.

你知道富有和快乐之间是有区别的。作为成年人你已经体验过这一点。嗯。所以即使你的孩子属于中产阶级，生活水平一般，只要他们能控制期望并专注于重要的事情，他们也可以快乐。

You know there's a difference between being rich and being happy. You've experienced it as an adult. Mhmm. And so even if your kids are middle class, doing modest by expectations, you know that they can be happy if they're keeping their expectations in check and they're focusing on the things that matter.

我欣赏你反复强调的一点是，你对‘快乐’这个词的定义以及我们日常使用它的方式，实际上指的是‘满足感’，意味着你活在当下，不再追求更多。你能接受现状和不足。一个人如何弄清楚自己为什么购买某物？因为我认为大多数人花钱时是无意识的，因为那一刻我们想要那个东西，或者因为无聊、压力等原因。

Well, what I love that you keep coming back to is that your definition truly for the word happiness and the way we casually use it is contentment, which means you are in the present moment of your life Yes. And you are not seeking something more. You are able to be okay with where things are and where things aren't. How can somebody figure out why they're buying something? Because I think most of us mindlessly spend money because in the moment, we want that thing or we're bored or stressed or whatever.

大多数人其实并不知道自己为什么花钱。那么摩根，你如何开始意识到自己花钱的确切原因呢？

Like, most people don't actually know why they're spending money. So how can you, Morgan, start to become conscious of exactly why you're spending your money on things?

我认为每一笔消费都可以归为两类之一。你应该问自己这笔消费属于哪一类：购买这个东西是为了让我和家人更快乐，还是为了给他人（大多是陌生人）留下好印象？总是这两者之一。如果我买食物，那显然是为了我和家人。

I think with every dollar that you spend, it's always one of two buckets. And you should ask yourself which bucket this falls into. Is buying this thing going to make me and my family happier, or am I buying it to impress other people, most of whom are strangers? It's always one of those two things. If I'm buying food, that's for me and my family, clear as day.

如果我买新衣服或新车，很大程度上可能是为了给陌生人留下印象，而这些人大多根本不会注意到你。总是这两者之一：你想把钱作为改善生活的工具，还是作为衡量自己与他人地位的标准？有这种想法完全正常。但当你意识到你正在玩的游戏——我许多的抱负只是为了给那些甚至不关注我的人留下印象，而他们不关注我是因为他们正忙于担心自己。

If I'm buying, new clothes, a lot of that might be or new car, a lot of that might be my attempt to impress strangers, most of whom are not paying any attention to you whatsoever. It's always one of those two things. Do you wanna use money as a tool to live a better life, Or do you wanna use money as a as a as a yardstick of status to measure yourself against others by? It's completely normal and natural to have that. But when you realize that that's the game that you're playing, that a lot of these aspirations that I have are to impress people who are not even paying attention to me, and they're not paying attention to me because they're busy worrying about themselves.

他们正忙着在脑子里自问：人们对我印象深刻吗？人们在看我吗？这些人内心最大的渴望，就是试图给那些一开始甚至没在关注他们的陌生人留下好印象。

They're busy in their own heads saying, are people impressed with me? Are people looking at me? And that is a huge part of what's going on inside these people's heads is that their biggest aspiration in life is trying to impress strangers who are not even looking to begin with.

这正是我从你研究中领悟的重要一课——你花的每一美元都落入两个桶中。

Well, that was a huge that was one of the big lessons from your work for me, which is every dollar you spend falls in two buckets.

二者必居其一。

One of those two things.

你要么花钱让别人对你产生某种看法，要么花钱让自己感觉良好。比如那条你根本不需要却觉得超酷的牛仔裤——你以为穿上会好看，同时又因身材焦虑而冲动消费——该如何区分这两种动机？因为很多人并不真正明白自己的购物动机。

You're either spending money to make other people think something about you, or you're spending money in a way that makes you feel good about you. How do you know the difference between the pair of jeans that you're about to buy that you don't need, but they look really cool and, you know, you think you're gonna look good in them, and you're also feeling bad about your body, so you hit spend? How do you dissect that? Because I think a lot of us don't understand exactly why we're buying things.

我在大学时有段经历，写在处女作《金钱心理学》里。当时我在洛杉矶一家五星级酒店当泊车员。

I had this experience in in college. I wrote about it in my first book, The Psychology of Money. I was a valet at a five star hotel in Los Angeles.

我超爱这个故事。

I love this story.

那段时光太有趣了，简直是最棒的工作。如果有机会，我愿意重回那个岗位。

It was it was so much fun. Was such a cool job. There's never been a better job. I would I would go back and do that job again.

很有趣。那份工作有那么好吗？确实是的

Was much fun. That job so much? It was

两件事。我可以驾驶非常豪华的汽车，对于一个19岁男孩来说，能停泊法拉利，世界上没有什么比这更棒的了。第二，当时我并没有明确意识到这一点，但那是我第一次窥见超级富豪的心理世界。那几年（大约18到22岁）让我学到了太多。其中一点感悟是——我记得有次值班时突然明白——如果有人开着法拉利或兰博基尼进入酒店，我会停下来看车并感到惊艳。

two things. I got to drive very fancy cars, and in the mind of a 19 year old boy parking a Ferrari, there's there's nothing better in the world. And two, I didn't really realize this explicitly at the time, but it was my first window into the psychology of very wealthy people. And that to me was absolutely I learned so much during those years, age, you know, 18 to 22. And one of the things I realized, and it I remember when this hit me during a shift, that if somebody came into the hotel, driving a Ferrari or a Lamborghini, I would stop and look at the car and be impressed.

但我永远不会看着司机说'那家伙真酷'。我会做的是把自己想象成司机。我想象如果是我在驾驶，人们会看着我说'看摩根，他太酷了'。有天我突然意识到：你发现其中的讽刺了吗？

But I would never look at the driver and say, that guy is so cool. What I would do is I would imagine myself as the driver. And I imagine that if I was driving, people would look at me and say, look at Morgan. He's so cool. And one day I was like, do you see the irony?

我根本不在乎那个司机，但我想成为司机，因为我觉得人们会在乎我。这就是个赤裸的真相：没人在乎你的程度像你自己那么多。他们忙着考虑自己。甚至当人们羡慕你的房子或车子时，他们实际在想的是'如果我有梅尔的房子/摩根的车，别人就会关注我'。所以本质上，每个人都很自私和自我中心——他们羡慕的不是你。

I don't care about the driver, but I wanna be the driver because I think people will care about me. And it was this stark realization of like, nobody is thinking about you as much as you are. They're busy thinking about themselves. And even when people are impressed with your house or your car, what they're actually doing is saying, if I had Mel's house, if I had Morgan's car, then people would look at me. And so the idea that everyone is pretty selfish and self centered in that sense where they're not impressed with you.

他们可能羡慕你的物品，因为他们幻想拥有这些物品。当我接受这点后，取悦他人的欲望骤降。当然没降到零——我不想穿着麻袋出门，我想让同事觉得专业。

They might be impressed with your stuff because they're imagining having your stuff. Once I came to terms with that, my desire for impressing other people plunged. Didn't plunge to zero. I don't wanna walk around in a burlap sack. I wanna impress my coworkers and my I wanna look professional.

比如当年我想追求后来成为我妻子的女孩时，这确实很重要。但'没人在乎你像你自己那么多'这个认知，会以奇妙的方式瓦解你的虚荣心，让你比任何方法都更快获得满足感。

I wanna you know, back then when I was trying to find a girlfriend who became my wife, then then it was very important. But the idea that no one's thinking about you as much as you are will collapse your aspirations in a wonderful way, and it will get you towards contentment much quicker than anything else.

这个领悟太震撼了。因为我们拼命追求外在物质，就是希望人们通过我们拥有的东西觉得我们了不起

That is such a mind blowing realization. Because if we're all chasing all this stuff on the outside so that people look at the stuff that we have and then think we're amazing

是的。

Yeah.

你在那个简单的例子中证明，人类大脑根本不是那样运作的。他们觉得那些东西很酷，但不会觉得你很酷。

You're proving in that simple example, that's not how the human brain works at all. They think the stuff is cool. They don't think you are.

一切都变成资源竞争。很少会真正对他人感到钦佩——不是完全没有。我认为这与伴侣关系同理。我妻子完全不在乎我开什么车。

Everything being a competition for resources. It's it's it's rarely saying being impressed with another people. Not not never. And this is I think it's the same with your spouse, your partner. My wife does not care at all what kind of car I drive.

她不在意我买了什么新牛仔裤。她关心的是：我是个称职的父亲吗？合格的丈夫吗？可靠的朋友吗？是否耐心、善解人意且乐于助人？

She doesn't care about what new jeans I bought. She couldn't what she cares about is am I a good dad? Am I a good spouse? Am I a good friend? Am I patient and understanding and helpful?

仅此而已。这个道理可以推广到生活的方方面面：朋友、同事、亲子关系。我们总说'要是有更贵/更大/更好的东西就好了'，但人们本能地明白真正重要的是：你是否是个好伴侣、好朋友、好父母。

That's it. And I think you can extend that analogy to anything else in your life. Your friends, your coworkers, your relationship with your children. We spend so much time saying if only I had nicer things, bigger things, better things, then that would be better. What matters, and people know intuitively that this matters, is that you are a good spouse, a good friend, a good parent.

若真想让陌生人钦佩你，他们不会因你的车刮目相看，而是因你的善良、体贴和乐于助人。当然知易行难，就像摩根说的，理智上认同，情感上仍觉得豪车能带来快乐。这种物欲如此根深蒂固，即便我研究二十年写了这些书，也未能完全克服。

If you do want strangers to be impressed with you, they're not gonna be impressed with your car. They will be impressed with how kind and caring and helpful you are to them. Now that's easier said than done too, because I think the overwhelming urge is, yeah, Morgan, like, I might I might believe what you're saying, but I still think this car would make me happy. Like, it's such a powerful thing that we have that it's it's not something that you can just get over immediately. And even after doing this for twenty years and writing these books, it's not something that I've been able to fully overcome.

还有个佐证：我敢说你社交圈里肯定有人住豪宅开豪车，但你绝不会因此就想...

Another way to prove this point is that I guarantee you in your social circle, there is somebody that you know that has a huge house or an amazing car, and you would not want

而且他们很痛苦。听到了吧。

to And they're miserable. Hear Right.

所以仅仅拥有你想要的所有那些东西并不会让你喜欢他们。因此我认为从理智上，我们知道这一点，但如果你有不良的消费习惯，你该如何改变它们，摩根？

And so just having all that stuff that you want doesn't make you like them. And so I think intellectually, we know this, but if you have bad spending habits, how do you change them, Morgan?

我认为你首先必须问一个问题，为什么你会有不良的消费习惯？你想填补什么空缺？过去购买这些东西对你的幸福感有什么影响？如果答案是没有影响，这很可能是答案，那么首先尝试填补那个空缺。首先尝试回答那个问题。

Think you first have to ask the question, why do you have bad spending habits? What hole are you trying to fill? What has buying these things done to your happiness in the past? And if the answer is nothing, which is probably the answer, trying to fill that hole first. Trying to answer that question first.

我认为你必须从心理治疗师的沙发上开始，无论是字面上还是比喻上，照照镜子，问问自己，我想实现什么？我想成为谁？为什么我想成为那样的人？为什么我在追求这些东西？对很多人来说，这是一种让他们陷入困境的疯狂消费，它是一种减压方式。

I think you have to kind of start on the therapist's couch literally or figuratively and take a look in the mirror and being like, what am I trying to achieve? Who do I want to become? Why do I want to be that? And why am I striving for these things? And for a lot of people, it's kind of like a binge spending that has gotten them into trouble where it's a stress relief.

它是一个减压阀。

It's a relief valve.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我认为你头脑中的阀门，你可能认为的是，如果我买了这些东西，我的问题就会消失。而事实是，这在当时可能是真的。对于消费来说，这几乎从来都不是真的。你的冲动消费很少能填补你情感上的任何空缺。另外，如果你是通过信贷购买这些东西，你有不良习惯，你会让自己陷入债务。

And I think what the valve I think in your head, what you probably think it is is if I bought these things, then my problems would go away. And the truth is that that might be true in the moment. For spending, it's almost never true. It's very rarely true that your bitch spending is gonna fill any kind of emotional hole that you have. And the other thing is that if you're buying these things particularly on credit, you have bad habits, you're getting yourself into debt.

你买的新毛衣或许能带来一两天的快乐，之后不是穿旧了就是不再在意它了，但偿还这笔消费却会困扰你数月、数年甚至数十年。控制未来与保持独立就是这样——你因不良消费习惯欠下的每一美元债务，都意味着未来有一部分时间属于债主。那是你欠银行、欠贷款机构的时间。反之，每存下一美元（即克服不良消费习惯），你就为自己赢得了未来的一份掌控权。

The new sweater that you bought might give you a day or two of happiness before it's either worn out or you don't care about it much anymore, but the but the paying it off is gonna stick with you for years or months or even decades. And so that kind of thing of controlling your future and independence. You know, every dollar of debt that you have from these poor spending habits is a piece of your future that somebody else owns. It's a piece of your time that you owe to the bank, you owe to the lender. And the opposite of that is every dollar of savings that you have, the reverse of bad spending habits, is a piece of your future that you own, that you have control over.

你拥有的每一美元都代表着未来属于你的一部分。这是我始终秉持的信念。自从17岁确立追求独立的目标起，我就把每存下一美元（哪怕只有1美元）视为赢回自己未来的1份自由。这种感受始终激励着我的储蓄行为。

Every single dollar that you have is a piece of your future that you own. That's always how I've wanted to think about it. And since my goal has been independence, I viewed this since I was 17, that every dollar that I save, even if it was literally $1 was $1 of my future that I gained back. That's always how it felt to me. And that's always been my goal for saving.

我的储蓄动机很简单：渴望独立。我想随心所欲地生活，而储蓄帮我实现了这点。存钱时我从不暗示自己'要为买新车攒钱'——尽管这也可以是正当目标。

And my motivation for saving was I just want to be independent. I just want to wake up and do whatever I want. And I feel like my savings has bought that. It's not when I save money, it's not because I say, oh, I'm saving up to buy a new car. Even though there there can be that, and that could be great.

每存下100美元，我就视作购买了100美元的独立。这笔钱当下就赋予我更多自由，我认为这能有效矫正不良消费习惯。很多人质疑储蓄意义，他们不理解存钱的目的。

If I save a $100, I view that as purchasing a $100 of independence. I'm spending that money. It's giving me independence today. And I think that can be an antidote to bad spending habits. A lot of people will say, why save like, they don't really understand the purpose of saving money.

没错。如果你本身钱就不多

Right. Because if you don't have a lot of money

会觉得储蓄不值当，甚至感觉古怪。

It feels worth. It feels useless. Weird.

我为什么还要从工资里挤出20美元存起来？毕竟目前只能负担这么多。

Why would I put $20 away from my paycheck? Because that's all I can afford to do right now.

这就是你所能做的一切。所以感觉像是何必费心呢？不如及时行乐，把钱全花掉。是的。我认为一旦你把心态从‘为什么要存100美元以备将来之需’转变为‘如果我现在就花掉这100美元呢？’

It's all that you can do. And so it feels like why even bother? Might as well just YOLO to spend spend all of it. Yes. I think once you shift the mentality from why save a $100 to spend in the future, if I just spend a $100 right now?

为什么我要推迟这种满足感，如果我可以立即拥有它？如果你这样看待问题，那么我理解那种‘及时行乐，花光一切，何必储蓄，无所谓’的心态。干脆负债累累，谁在乎呢？但如果你把那100美元视为今天购买到的100美元独立、100美元安宁、100美元更好的睡眠，那么游戏规则就彻底改变了。所以如果我存下100美元，那不是延迟满足。

Why am I putting why am I delaying this gratification if I could have it immediately? If you view it like that, then I understand the mentality of YOLO spend everything, why even save, doesn't matter. Let's just go into debt, who cares? Once you view it as that $100, you are purchasing today a $100 of independence, a $100 of peace, a $100 of sleeping better at night, then it it completely shifts the game. And so if I save a $100, that's not delayed gratification.

而是在当下，在今天和今晚，就带给我100美元的快乐和更多满足感，因为我觉得比起存钱之前，我现在更加独立了。当你回归到人们真正想从金钱中获得什么时

That today, in this moment, today and tonight, gives me a $100 of happiness and more contentment today because I feel like I'm more independent than I was before I saved that money. And when you get back to I think what people want out of money

天啊。大多数人认为买豪车才是炫富。你是说

Oh my god. Most people think that buying the nice car is the flex. You're saying

独立才是真正的炫富。纳西姆·塔勒布有句名言：‘我衡量成功的唯一标准是你有多少时间可以挥霍。’当然，这存在一个范围。但我一直追求的只是独立。而且你可以在相当低的收入水平下实现独立。

Independence is the flex. There's a great quote from Nasim Taleb where he says, my only metric of of success is how much time you have to kill. And now, you know, there's there's obviously a a spectrum of that. But that's always been I I just want independence. And you can have independence at a pretty low level of financial income.

比如我的祖母，她一无所有，却拥有纯粹的独立。你可以是世界顶级富豪却毫无独立性，完全受制于他人的意见和欲望。有些亿万富翁的独立性远不及我的祖母。

Dan Asas, that was my grandmother-in-law. She had nothing, and she had pure independence. You can be one of the richest men in the world and have no independence. Completely beholden to the opinions and the desires of somebody else. And there are multibillionaires who are way less independent than my grandmother-in-law.

我认为这是一个赋权的信息：你的独立感是一种感觉，是你给自己讲的故事。并不存在某个财务门槛说‘一旦你有这么多钱，你就自由了’。你可以是亿万富翁却完全受制于人，也可以钱很少却在精神上拥有完全的财务独立。

And that I think is an empowering message of, like, your feeling of being independent is a feeling it's a story that you've told yourself. It's not there there there's no financial level at which like, okay, once you have this much money, then you're set free. You can be a multibillionaire and completely beholden to other people. You can have very little money and have pure financial independence in your head.

我们来谈谈投资吧，因为你对此有独到的见解。你说投资成功更多与长期思维和避免嫉妒驱动行为有关。是的。为什么这如此重要？

Let's touch on investing because you have a really great take on this. You say that success in investing has more to do with long term thinking and avoiding jealousy driven behavior. Yeah. Why is that so powerful?

全赖复利。复利是件神奇的事——你的资金随时间增长，且增速会越来越快。就是这样

All compound interest. So compound interest is an incredible thing of just you're growing your money over time, and it grows at an increasingly higher level. And that's how

你能向可能不了解的听众解释一下吗？我知道很多人会把这期节目分享给生活中从未听过关于金钱心理学或如何改变财务行为的人。那么什么是复利？

you become explain that to the person listening who may not know what that is? Because I know a lot of people are gonna share this episode to people in their lives who may have never ever listened to anybody when it comes to the psychology of money or how to change your behaviors around money. So what is compounding interest?

简单来说：假设我们有100美元，今年获得10%回报。一年后就有110美元，赚了10美元利润。

So we explain it very simply. We have we have a $100, Yep. And we earn a 10% return on our money this year. So in one year, we have a $110, 10% return. So you're you're in $10 in profit this year.

明年同样获得10%回报，但这次是基于110美元计算。所以第二年利润是11美元。第一年利润10美元，第二年11美元。

I'm also gonna earn a 10% return next year. So now I earn 10% on a $110. So my profit that year is 11. So my profit in year one is $10. My profit in year two is $11.

第三年利润可能是12或13美元。每年都在增长，因为你在利润上再获利。如果持续三十年、四十年甚至五十年，回报会变得惊人。我在书中举的例子是史上最伟大投资者沃伦·巴菲特，他身家超千亿美元。

My profit in year three might be 12 or $13. It's growing every year because you are earning gains on your gains. And if and if you extend that over a lifetime, over thirty or forty or fifty years, the returns get absurd. So the example that I use in my book is Warren Buffett, the greatest investor of all time. He's worth over a $100,000,000,000.

无人能接近他的投资成就。而他99%的净资产是在六十岁生日后累积的。

Nobody comes close to the level of investing success that he's achieved. 99% of his net worth was accumulated after his sixtieth birthday.

再说一遍。

Say that again.

他99%的净资产是在六十岁生日后积累的。60岁时他已是亿万富翁，无论以何种标准衡量都堪称荒谬的成功，但从60岁到如今94岁，他的财富增长超过1000亿美元。这背后的原因在于复利的魔力——关键不在于回报率高低，而在于你能持续多久。我认为这对普通人极具启发性：只要能在超长周期内保持平均投资水平，就能获得绝对惊人的回报。

99% of his net worth was accumulated after his sixtieth birthday. Now when he was 60, he was a billionaire, absurdly successful by any metric, but he became worth over a $100,000,000,000 from age 60 to he's 94 today. And so the reason that's the case is that how compound interest works, it's not necessarily about what your returns are. It's about how long can you keep it going. And I think what is so empowering for ordinary people is that if you can be an average investor for an above average period of time, you can achieve absolutely incredible returns.

很多人在投资时会想：我无法与华尔街抗衡，比不上那些聪明的精英和对冲基金。他们懂得更多，能获得更高收益，于是感到气馁。但事实上，你并不需要取得非凡的回报率。

And so a lot of people when investing, they look, well, I can't compete against Wall Street. I can't compete against all these smart hotshots and the hedge funds. They know more things. They can earn higher returns than I can, and so you become discouraged. The truth is that you don't need to do anything extraordinary with your returns.

你需要的是非凡的耐心。若能保持三十年平均水平，最终你将跻身投资者前1%。我父母就是活生生的例子。他们聪明有教养，但毫无金融经验或专业背景。

You need to have extraordinary patience. And so if you can be average for thirty years, you will end up in the top 1% of investors. My parents, really personified this. My parents are smart, educated people, but they have no financial experience. No financial education.

没有金融人脉，也没有听众们不知道的内幕消息。但他们拥有超乎寻常的耐心、自制力和纪律性。四十年来每月坚持投资，从未卖出。每月投入少量资金，然后四十年不动摇。

No financial background, no connections, no information that anybody listening to this doesn't have. But they have had extraordinary patience and and self control and discipline. So they have been investing consistently every month for forty years. Never sold anything. Every month, they invest a little bit of money, leave it alone for forty years.

若计算他们的收益，实际上已超越顶级职业基金经理——尽管他们不具备任何专业知识，也没有你我所没有的特殊信息。因为他们掌握了真正重要的唯一技能：极致的耐心与纪律。这就是全部所需。我记得有个职业投资者的故事很耐人寻味：这位基金经理在任何单一年度都从未进入同行前50%。

If you look at their returns, they would literally be in the top of professional money managers without knowing anything, without having any extra information that you and I or anyone less than can't have, because they had the one skill that actually mattered, which was just patient patience and discipline. And that's all you need. That's the only thing that you need. And, you know, there's a there there's some very interesting stories of professional investors who I remember hearing the story about this professional investor who in any given year was never in the top half measured against his peers. In any given year, you look at this money manager, and you're like, yeah, he did okay.

看似平平无奇。但三十年后，他成为了最顶尖的投资者。因为这才是关键——不在于今年赚多少，而在于你能持续多久，这才是决定性的因素。

Nothing extraordinary. But over thirty years, he was he was the best. Because that's all you need. It's not about what you earn this year. It's about how long can you keep it going for is all that matters.

摩根，我还有很多想深入探讨的内容。但首先，让我们稍作暂停，让赞助商说几句话。我知道你今天学到了很多。所以我想请你做一件事：慷慨一点。

Morgan, there's so much more I wanna dig into. But first, let's take a quick pause so our sponsors can share a few words. And I know that you are learning so much today. And so here's what I want you to do. Be generous.

把这段对话分享给你生活中那些为金钱焦虑、觉得自己永远无法进步，或刚开始学习如何更负责任地管理钱财的人。我向你保证，他们会感谢你这份礼物——向摩根·豪塞尔学习的机会。别走开，我们才刚刚开始。摩根即将揭示一个最简单的习惯，无论你收入多少，它都将彻底改变你的财务生活。

Share this conversation with people in your life that are stressed about money or feel like they're never gonna get ahead or are just starting out on the journey of learning how to be more responsible with their money. I promise you, they will thank you for the gift that is learning from Morgan Housel. And don't go anywhere. We're just getting started. Morgan is about to reveal the simplest habit that will transform your financial life no matter how much you earn.

我们马上回来，短暂休息后等着你。欢迎回来，我是你的朋友梅尔·罗宾斯。今天，你我都有幸向摩根·豪塞尔学习，他是全球最受尊敬的金融思想家之一。他正在向我们展示如何从今天开始掌控你的金钱和未来。

We'll be right back, and we're gonna be waiting for you after this short break. Welcome back. Your friend Mel Robbins. And today, you and I are getting to learn from Morgan Housel, one of the most respected financial thinkers in the world. And he's showing you and me how to take control of your money and your future starting where you are today.

摩根，你知道我曾负债80万美元，房子还被扣押，我是一步步挣扎着爬出来的。有趣的是几乎每次采访都会有人问：你是怎么摆脱债务的？我的回答是：十五年如一日地削减账单，坚持储蓄超过支出。这意味着降低生活品质的期望，过程确实煎熬。

So, Morgan, you know, having been $800,000 in debt and having liens on my house, I and clawing my way out of it. You know, it's funny in almost every interview I get asked, so how did you get out of debt? I'm like, fifteen years of just clawing away at the bills and saving more than I spent. I mean, it was lowering expectations from my lifestyle. I mean, it was grueling.

但现在我发现自己害怕做任何感觉稍有风险的事情。

But now I notice that I'm afraid to really do anything that feels slightly risky.

不会的。

No.

我知道很多人都担心损失钱财。如果你处于这种担心现有资金损失的思维模式中，你还会建议人们投资股市吗？

And I know there's a lot of people that are worried about losing their money. And so if you have a mindset where you're worried about losing the money that you have, do you still recommend that people invest in the stock market?

是的。但问题总是：多少才够？所以我心存恐惧。我从未深陷债务，一直是个勤勉的储蓄者，但或许本该存更多。

Yeah. But it's always the question is how much? And so I have that fear. I was I've never been buried in debt. I've always been a diligent saver, but I probably have.

如果让我躺在心理医生的沙发上，你或许能找出这种心态的根源。但我一生都在为最坏情况做准备，这种凡事做最坏打算的思维让我成为重度储蓄者。若审视我的净资产，约一半（或许略多）在股市——按我的年龄和收入，多数理财顾问会说这比例太保守了。

And if you put me on the psychologist's couch, you can maybe pull a string of why this might be. But I've always had kind of a worst case scenario, prepare for the worst mentality of everything that I've done in life. So I think that's why I've been a big saver. And so I have if you looked at my entire net worth, I'm trying to it's probably a half, maybe a little bit more than half in the stock market. Most financial advisers, if you looked at somebody my age and my income would say, you can have way more than that.

而我说：不，不，不。这样就很好，足够了。

And I said, no. No. No. Like, this that's that's fine. That's plenty.

因为我这种末日思维...没错。这很适合我的性格。我这方面的财务目标是最大化夜间睡眠质量。

Because I have this kind of worst case scenario Yeah. Thinking. And that's fine. That works that works for my personality. My my financial goal in that aspect is maximizing for how well I sleep at night.

我绝不希望墓碑上刻着'他是前5%的投资者，跑赢了标普500'——我根本不在乎。金钱只是助我安眠的工具，这才是我追求的指标。

I have no desire for my tombstone to say he was in the top 5% of investors. He outperformed the s and p five. I I couldn't care less. I wanna use money as a tool to help me sleep at night. That's the metric I'm going for.

因此当市场暴跌时（比如2020年2月疫情期间），对我影响有限：我从未全仓投入，总有充足现金、债券和基础储蓄作缓冲。当然，这种保守也可能过度。

And so during periods when the market has done very poorly, 02/2020 during COVID, it didn't really have that much impact on me because it was I was never a 100% in it. I always had plenty to fall back onto of things. So I have quite a bit of cash and bonds and, like, boring basic savings. And look, like you can overdose on that. You can overdo that.

理财顾问常说'想最大化收益就该这样配置股票'——这对某些人成立。但你必须与伴侣直面内心：我们到底要最大化什么？再高的投资回报也抵不过凌晨两点惊醒自问：'我做得对吗？是否过头了？'

But I think the idea that most financial advisors would just say, well, look, you know, if you want to maximize your investing returns, this is this is how much you should have in the stock market. That can be true for some people, but you really have to look in the mirror with you and your maybe your spouse and your partner, and say, well, like, what are we trying to maximize for? And I think there's no amount of investing return that can compensate for waking up at two in the morning and saying, oh, shit. Am I doing this right? Have I gone too far?

对我来说，没有任何回报值得那么做。我更愿意把钱当作追求幸福的工具，看着存款想到——我现在有年幼的孩子。当我审视存款时，我考虑的是万一家庭遭遇变故、事业受挫、健康问题等意外时，这笔积蓄能成为避免孩子受苦的缓冲垫。每个人的处境不同，但在我人生现阶段，这就是金钱对我的意义。所以重点不在于'我是否实现了投资收益最大化？'

There's no amount of return, at least for me, that would be worth it for that. I I would much rather just use money as a tool to be happy and look at my savings and think, you know, I have young kids right now. When I think about my savings, I think about if something terrible happened to our family, my career, our health, whatever it might be, this savings is a cushion to prevent hardship on my children. Now everyone's in a different situation, but for me at this phase of my life, that's that's what it is to me. And so it's not about like, oh, am I maximizing investing return?

而在于'我是否在用这个工具为家人创造更美好的生活？'这对我个人而言才是核心。

It's am I using this as a tool to give myself and my kids and my wife a better life? That's what it is for me personally.

这正是你最初说的——要么把钱当作过好日子、获得满足感的工具。现在你又引出这个命题：我在追求什么最大化？对吧？要么就把它当作与外人攀比的标尺。

Well, and that's what you said at the very beginning. You either use your money as a tool in order to live a good life and to be content. And you've now introduced this question, what am I maximizing for? Right. Or you're using it as this yardstick so that you can measure up with people externally.

没错。就是这两种...

Right. There's Those

截然不同的选择。

are the two things.

历史上充斥着这类故事，主角多是富豪，他们投资的目标就是碾压他人。对，他们的追求是跑赢下一个人，结果却适得其反。他们追逐的目标对生活质量毫无提升，这在我看来始终难以理解。我的出发点始终是：如何用金钱提升幸福感？

And there's a graveyard of stories of people, most of them are very wealthy people, who the goal of their investments was beat other people. Yeah. Their goal was outperform the next guy, and it completely backfired on their hat. They were chasing a goal that had no impact on their quality of life, and that has that's never made much sense to me. It's always just been like, how can I use this as a tool to be happier?

我在《金钱心理学》中详细阐述过自己的投资理念。有趣的是——虽然不算意外——很多人似乎以让电子表格数字漂亮为目标。是的，他们追求的是能推导出'收益最大化'的公式。而我的目标始终是：把它当作改善生活的工具。

And there are a lot of people I explained in Psychology Money how I invest my money. And I was maybe not surprised, but I think it's so interesting to me that it seems like their goal is making the spreadsheet happy. Yes. Their goal is so that you could come up with a formula that says you're maximizing return. And my goal has always been use it as a tool to live a better life.

简略版本是什么？我知道你在书里写过你如何投资自己的钱。

What is the shorthand version? I do I know you do write about it in your book for how you do invest your money.

我投资的是所谓的指数基金，非常无聊、非常基础。你基本上拥有全宇宙的每支股票。随便选一家上市公司，我在这个基金里都持有它。成本非常低。

So I invest in what are called index funds, which are very boring, very basic. You basically own every stock in the universe. Pick a public company. I own it in this fund. Very low cost.

而且我每个月、每个季度都持续投资，从未大量卖出过任何资产。我希望永远这样做下去。这些钱将来可以留给孩子或捐给慈善机构等等。就这样，就是这么无聊和基础。

And I invest consistently every month, every quarter, and I've never sold anything in any significant amounts. And I hope to do that forever. I hope this is money that I pass along to my kids or charity or whatever it might be. And that's it. It's as boring and basic as that.

如果你看我的全部净资产，就是一栋房子、现金、指数基金，以及我在董事会任职的Markel公司股票。仅此而已，简单无聊到极致。投资越复杂，你能坚持十年、二十年或三十年的概率就越低。回到复利的话题，关键就在于你能否坚持下去？

And if you look at my entire net worth, it's a house, cash, index funds, and shares of a company called Markel, where I'm on the board of directors. And that that's it. It's it's as simple and boring and basic as you can get. The more complicated your investments are, the lower the odds that you can actually stick with them for ten or twenty or thirty years. And getting back to compound interest, like, all that matters is can you stick with this?

你能否持续多年甚至几十年这样做？我认为投资组合越简单，需要操作的杠杆越少，长期坚持的概率就越高。

Can you keep this going for years or decades? And I think the simpler it is, the fewer levers you have to pull in your portfolio, the higher the odds that you're gonna be able to stick with it for a long period of time.

你一直在说耐心这个词。是的。我觉得既是对所做的事情保持耐心，也是当生活不如预期时对自己保持耐心。还有当情绪低落时，比如觉得买套新高尔夫球杆可能会缓解抑郁的那种耐心。

You keep saying the word patience. Yeah. And I think it's both patience with the things that you're doing, patience with yourself as your life is not meeting your expectations. Yeah. Patience with your emotions when you feel like maybe if you bought that new thing, those new set of golf clubs, it'd make you feel a little less depressed.

耐心、耐心、耐心。对于从未投资过、不看自己财务状况、感到畏惧的人，摩根，你会对他们说什么？

Patience, patience, patience. For somebody who's never invested, they don't look at their money. They feel intimidated by this. What would you say to them, Morgan?

投资股市最重要的一点是，从历史经验来看，长期持有能带来丰厚回报。假以时日，你可以在股市赚取大量财富。但如同生活中的一切，这需要付出代价。是的，参与其中是有成本的。

One of the most important things about investing in the stock market is that we know historically you can do very well over time. You can make a lot of money in the stock market over time. Like anything else in life, there is a cost of that. Yeah. There there is a fee for doing that.

当我提到成本时，并非指支付给顾问或经纪人的费用。投资成功的代价是忍受永无止境的波动与不确定性链条。这就是你获取收益的代价——入场券的价格，在于接受这个事实：我坚信未来二十年股市会表现良好，却完全无法预知回报何时到来。我们可能明年就获得全部收益，然后经历十九年的停滞。

And when I say fees, I'm not talking about fees to your adviser, fees to your broker. The fee for doing well and investing is putting up with a constant never ending chain of volatility and uncertainty. That's what you're getting paid for. That's the cost of admission, is putting up with the fact that I am very confident that the stock market will do well over the next twenty years, but I have no idea when that's return is gonna come. We might get all of that return next year, and then have nineteen years of stagnation.

也可能承受十九年停滞，所有回报集中在第二十年涌现。我们无从知晓时机。忍耐并承受这些，就是入场的代价。世上也存在零波动的投资，比如银行储蓄账户——没有波动性，回报完全可预测。

We might get nineteen years of stagnation, then it all comes in year twenty. We have no idea when it's gonna come. And enduring that and putting up with that is the cost of admission. There are other investments out there that have no volatility. Savings account in the bank, you have no volatility, very predictable what your returns are gonna be.

但那些回报注定微薄，那才是你应得的回报。因此，若你愿意承受波动、不确定性与未知，这才是真正的入场费。而历史证明，这笔入场费值得支付。只要你能长期坚持十年、二十年，终将收获非凡成就。

Your returns are gonna be low. Those are the returns that you deserve. And so if you're willing to put up with volatility and uncertainty and not knowing, that's that's the cost of admission. And historically, that has been a cost of admission that is worth paying. That if you can put up with that over time, ten, twenty years, you can do extraordinarily well.

摩根，你曾特别强调富裕（rich）与富足（wealthy）的本质区别。能否为我们解析这两者的差异及其重要性？

You know, Morgan, you make a huge distinction between being rich and wealthy. Can you walk us through the difference and why it matters?

我认为按照我的定义，富裕意味着银行里有足够资金购买你想要的东西——能支付房贷、车贷、外出用餐等消费需求，这就是富裕。而富足则关乎独立性，是那些存放在银行未被花掉的金钱。

I think if you are rich, then by my definition, that means that you have the money in the bank to buy the things that you want. You can make your mortgage payment, you can make your car payment, you can pay for your dinners out, whatever you want to do, that's rich. Wealthy is independent. It's money in the bank that you're not spending. It is money.

它是你尚未兑换成商品的储蓄，是静静增值的投资。这些未消费的资产赋予你双重自由：财务自由与精神自由，让你能按自己的方式生活，不必追逐他人或你认为他人对你的期待。这个光谱的两端存在着一些令人震撼的典型案例。

It's things that you have not purchased. It's savings. It's investments that's sitting there, not being spent, but it's giving you independence. It's giving you financial independence and psychological independence where you can live your life in your way without chasing what other people what you think other people want out of you. And there are some pretty astounding examples of the two sides of the spectrum.

我在《花钱的艺术》这本书里提到过这个例子。范德比尔特家族曾是世界上最富有的家族。回溯到19世纪，科尼利厄斯·范德比尔特若按通货膨胀调整，其净资产约达五千亿美元。而其他一些非常富有的家族，如卡内基家族、洛克菲勒家族，在将大部分财富捐赠给慈善事业方面做得相当不错。范德比尔特家族则基本上表示，我们要把所有财富都留给我们的孩子、孙子和曾孙们，他们的任务就是过上你能想象到的最奢华、最炫耀的生活。

I use this in the book, The Art of Spending Money. The Vanderbilt family was the richest family that the world had ever seen. Back in the eighteen hundreds, Cornelius Vanderbilt, if you adjust it for inflation, he had something like half a trillion dollars was his his net worth. And some of the other very wealthy families, the Carnegies, the Rockefellers, did a pretty good job at giving most of their money away to charity. The Vanderbilts basically said, we're gonna give it all to our kids and our grandkids and our great great grandkids, and their job is to live the biggest, most ostentatious life that you can possibly imagine.

关于这些范德比尔特继承人的传记无一例外地显示，他们每个人都过得很悲惨。要知道，如果你是20世纪初的范德比尔特继承人，出生那天就能获得五亿美元的信托基金。而你一生中唯一被期待的事就是尽可能挥霍，可他们每个人都痛苦不堪。其中一位继承人亚瑟·范德比尔特写了一本名为《财富的孩子们》的书，讲述了他祖先的历史。这是我读过的最令人心碎的书籍之一。

And the biographies that came from there of those Vanderbilt heirs, which show, I think, without exception, that every single one of them was miserable. Every single these are you know, if you were a Vanderbilt heir in the early nineteen hundreds, the day that you were born, you got half a billion dollars trust fund. And the only thing that was ever expected out of you in life was that you spend as big as you possibly can, and every single one of them was miserable. There's a book called Fortune's Children written by one of the heirs, and it was Arthur Vanderbilt, and he talks about the history of his of his ancestors. And it is a saddest one of the saddest books I've ever read.

因为这些人或许在你我以及听众看来会感叹'你们太幸运了，简直难以置信'——出生当天就获得十亿美元。但当你读完这些故事后会说：我绝不想要那样的人生。正是因为他们过于富有。

Because these people are people who maybe you and I and people listening would look at and say, you're so lucky. That's I can't believe how lucky you got. You just got a billion dollars a day you were born. And you read it and you say like, I would never want that life. Because they were so very rich.

他们曾是世界上最富有的人，却毫无自主权。一切都被规定好了，甚至连婚姻对象都要由家族社交圈来决定。对我而言，范德比尔特家族最耐人寻味的是：时至今日，他们的财富几乎已消耗殆尽。虽然还有少数继承人保有部分资产，但第一个没有继承任何遗产或信托基金的范德比尔特后代，是安德森·库珀。

They were the richest people in the world, but they had no independence. Everything was dictated about even including who they were allowed to marry was dictated by kind of the social circle of of their family. And to me, the most interesting part of the Vanderbilt family is that by this point today, virtually all the money is is gone. There are a couple Vanderbilt heirs that have some money. But the first Vanderbilt heir who got no inheritance, no trust fund, was Anderson Cooper.

这位CNN主播想必大家都很熟悉。他的母亲格洛丽亚·范德比尔特算是最后一位获得大额信托基金的家族成员。安德森·库珀曾坦言，作为首个没继承多少财富的范德比尔特继承人或许是件好事——他是这个家族150年来第一个被告知'你必须自谋出路，开创自己的事业，赚取自己的财富，找到自己的人生方向'的人。

The CNN post who I'm sure most people are familiar with. His mother, Gloria Vanderbilt, was kind of the last person to get a big trust fund. And Anderson Cooper has talked about this, that being the first Vanderbilt heir who didn't get much money was probably a good thing. He was the first person in his family in like a hundred and fifty years who was told, you have to go figure it out for yourself. You have to build your own career, make your own money, figure out your own way.

他谈到这点时说，自己很可能是家族职业生涯中最快乐的人。虽然并非事事完美，但确实是最满足的成员之一。这再次印证了我的观点：看看这些曾经的全球首富吧，按照我的定义，范德比尔特家族根本不具备真正的财富——他们没有自主权，没有能力主宰自己的人生。

And he's talked about this, like, he's probably the happiest person in his career. Not that he's had a perfect life, but he's he's probably one of the happiest. And I think that is, again, like, if you look at the richest people, because the Vanderbilts were the richest people in the world, and they had no wealth by my definition. They had no independence. They had no ability to live their own life.

我认为这就是富裕与真正富足的区别所在。

I think that's the difference between rich and wealthy.

但归根结底，你究竟在用钱做什么？你对为何这么做的动机越清晰，就越会改变你的具体做法和方式。

But all comes back to what are you actually using money for? And the clearer you are about the drivers for why you're doing it, it changes what and how you're doing it.

没错。这在我脑海中非常明确。比如，你宁愿每年赚7万美元，孩子们崇拜你，婚姻美满，和朋友烧烤聚会，坐着开怀大笑，身体健康？

Yes. And it's so clear in my head. Like, would you rather earn $70,000 a year and your kids admire you? You've had a great marriage. You have barbecues with your friends, and you sit and laugh, and you're in good health.

还是宁愿选择年入百万，却经历第五次离婚，子女断绝往来，健康堪忧，被所有商业伙伴起诉？当你这样对比时，答案显而易见。是要美好生活但钱少些，还是钱多但生活更糟？但即便认同这个逻辑，人们仍会下意识说：'我还是想年入百万'——这种诱惑始终存在。

And would you rather have that life, or make a million dollars a year, and you're on your fifth divorce, your kids don't talk to you anymore, you're in terrible health, you're being sued by all of your business partners? It's when you frame it like that, it's the most obvious thing in the world. Like, would you rather have a good life and less money, or more money and then a worse life? But still, even if you agree with that framing, it is so normal and natural to say, okay, but I'd still rather make a million dollars a year. Like, the pull is still always there.

因为每个人都觉得自己会是例外。

Well, because you think you're gonna be the exception.

确实如此。

Everybody does.

都是这么想的。好吧，摩根，如果你二十多岁刚起步，没有储蓄习惯，大学毕业后刚获得第一份工作，关于理财你有什么建议？

Everybody does. Right. So if you're in your twenties and you're just getting started, you haven't been a big saver, you're just got your first job out of college, Morgan, what is your advice in terms of getting good with money?

我意识到大多数人财务出问题并非因为智商不足，而是无知。他们根本不清楚自己每月收支情况。如果你问：'你每月赚多少花多少？'...

I I came to this by realizing that most peoples who are making financial mistakes and have a problem with money, it's not because of the lack of intelligence. It's it's ignorance. And for most people, they actually have no idea how much money they're making or spending. And if you ask them, like, how much money do you make per month? And how much money do you spend per month?

总体而言，处于那种情况下的人要么无法告诉你实情，要么会给你一个错误的答案。我认为最基础也最有效的无聊建议就是：每天查看你的银行账户余额。这只需要

Overall, most people in that situation either couldn't tell you or they would give you an answer that's false. And I think that the very basic such boring advice that goes the longest is check your bank account balance every single day. It takes

每一天都要。

Every single day.

每一天。每一天。这只需要十秒钟。并不难。只是为了让你清楚有多少钱进账，有多少钱支出。

Every day. Every day. It takes ten seconds. It's not that hard. And just to give yourself some sense of how much money is coming in and how much is going out.

只需要对此保持认知。我从未见过有人不再这么做，但在上一代人中，核对支票簿总是件大事。现在大多数人都不这么做了。但我记得从我青少年时期开始，我从未有过不需要这样做的想法，因为自16、17岁起，我每天都清楚自己银行账户的余额精确到每一美元。我认为，仅仅了解资金的流入和流出，就是最基础的建议。

Just be cognizant of it. I've never none people don't do this anymore, but back in in a different generation, balancing your checkbook was always a big thing. Most people don't do it anymore. But I remember for my entire life since I've been a teenager, I've never had any desire to never need to do that because I know my bank account balance down to the dollar every day since I've been 16 or 17. And I think just having that awareness of what's going in and what's going out, it's the most basic advice.

但对于刚开始的新手来说，没有什么比这更重要的了。这不是智力的缺失，而是无知。你只需要意识到自己在花什么、有多少收入、多少支出。这是最首要的事情。

But for people who are new and starting out, nothing goes further than that. It's not a lack of intelligence. It's ignorance. You just have to become aware of what you're spending and how much is coming in and how much is going out. That's the very first thing.

那接下来呢？

And what's the next thing?

另一件事是，财务独立是一个连续的过程，并非非黑即白。就像我们之前讨论的，大多数人会说：为什么要省20美元？这看起来根本不会有任何区别。所以我干脆不存了。

The other thing is financial independence exists on a spectrum. It's not black and white. So most people would say, we talked about this earlier, why save $20? That doesn't seem like it's gonna make any difference whatsoever. So I'm not even gonna save.

你节省的每一分钱都是你未来的一部分资产。你攒下的每一块钱都能在你失业时、遇到医疗紧急情况时、或车子抛锚时，为你增添一丝安全感。每一块钱都在帮你接近那个目标。如果你把财务自由看作非黑即白——要么腰缠万贯要么毫无意义——那我理解你为何质疑储蓄的意义。但当你视每笔存款为掌控未来的筹码时，它就成了未来某个安眠夜的保障。

Every dollar that you save is a piece of your future that you own. Every dollar that you save is a little bit marginally more comfort that you're gonna have if you get laid off, if you have a medical emergency, if your car breaks down, every single dollar is getting you to that place. So if you view independence as black and white, either I'm filthy rich or there's no reason to do it, then I understand why you would say, why even save? When you view it as every dollar that I save is a piece of my future that I control. It's a night of sleep in the future that's gonna be a little bit better.

我认为储蓄欲望会因此更强烈。你不会觉得这些钱在闲置——不是存着不用就能带来当下即刻的满足感。我人生中最明智的财务决策往往是那些'未做的事'：二十出头时差点买了负担不起的房子，那会把我困在不想久留的地区，现在回想简直是灾难。

I think the desire to save becomes even more. And you don't feel like it's idle money, like you're saving money, and it's just sitting there not being used. It can give you pleasure today, right now. And I think some of the best financial decisions I've ever made was what I didn't do. I almost bought a house in my early 20s that I wouldn't have been able to afford, that would have locked me down to a region of the country that I didn't want to stay in, that would have done all kinds of things that in hindsight would have been terrible.

早年租房带给我的自由和独立——说走就走，追着工作机会迁徙——如今回首实在是妙不可言。

And the freedom, the independence that I had by renting earlier in my life of getting up and going, moving to where the jobs were, I look back at that in hindsight as being an absolutely wonderful thing.

听你这么说，我意识到这也是个预期管理问题。如果你期待二十七八岁或三十出头就能买房，当然会觉得自己失败了。

Well, know, as I listen to you, and I'm realizing it's also a matter of expectations. Yeah. If you expected to be able to afford a house in your late twenties or early thirties, then of course you're going to think you failed.

没错。

Right.

但若调整预期告诉自己：保持耐心，市场有涨跌，通胀有起伏，房贷利率会波动。只要沉住气，终会找到解决方案。当时机成熟、财力允许时，自然能遇上合适的房子。

But if you shift your expectations and say to yourself, if I'm patient, markets go up and down, inflation goes up and down. Yep. Mortgage rates go up and down. If I am patient, I will be able to figure this out. And when the timing is right and when I can afford it, I will find the right house for me.

正是如此。这就是化解当下焦虑的方法——是社会灌输的预期或父母的期待让你对这个话题痛苦不堪。你研究中的另一个重要课题是掌握储蓄之道。我以前总犯的错误是执着于赚更多钱，以为只有提高收入才能致富。

Yes. And that's the way that you manage the stress that you feel right now because it's your expectation based on what society's telling you or your parents are telling you that is making you miserable around the topic. You know, one of the other big lessons of your work is the importance of mastering saving money. And I had always made the mistake of thinking about making more money. I gotta make more money in order to have more money.

你真的改变了我的思维方式，让我开始关注储蓄。能谈谈为什么储蓄如此重要，而不是一味追求赚更多钱吗？

And you really switched my thinking to focus on saving. Can you talk about why saving is so important versus the obsession with making more?

这个嘛，关键在于你需要多少钱才能感到幸福满足。就我个人而言，我一直觉得我的储蓄水平——因为我不需要太多就能快乐。我和妻子过着不错的生活，但不是那种物质上很炫耀的生活。所以我们不需要太多就能满足生活需求。我认为这可以成为你储蓄的超能力。

Well, so much is is just what you need to be happy and content. And, you know, for someone, it's I've always felt like my level of savings since I don't need that much to be happy. My wife and I live a good life, but not a not a very materially flashy life. So we don't need that much to kinda check the boxes in our life. And so I feel like that can be a a superpower for your savings.

如果你需要1万美元才能快乐，而我只需要一千美元就能快乐，那么我从储蓄中获得的幸福感可能远比你多。当你意识到期望与现实之间的差距——就像给储蓄加了涡轮增压——感觉就完全不同了。这在我年轻时尤其明显，存下100或1000美元都能让生活发生巨大改变。我记得银行里有5000美元时，是我这辈子感觉最富有的时刻，在那个阶段那简直是笔难以想象的巨款。

If you need $10,000 to be happy, but I only need a thousand dollars to be happy, like, I'm getting way more out of that savings than you might. And so once you realize that that gap between expectations and reality is like the few the soup is like supercharging your savings, then it has a totally different feel. And so this is especially true when I was younger, where saving a $100 or a thousand dollars, that was that made an extraordinary difference in my life. I think the wealthiest I've ever felt was when I had $5,000 in the bank. And I remember just feeling like that's it was such an unfathomable amount of money at that phase in my life.

现在回想起来，这笔钱对我的意义已经不如当年了。但回忆当时，我确实觉得那非常了不起。可悲的是，那么点钱就让我觉得自己如此富有。

And I look back at it now, that's a less meaningful amount of money to me now than it was back then. But I look back at it now. I'm like, yeah. But I was I like I I I thought it was more extraordinary back then. And isn't that kind of sad that, like, that made me feel so rich.

我记得有5000美元时醒来，完全无法理解这是多大一笔钱。而现在同样的金额已经无法带给我那种感觉。这不有点可悲吗？这就是当你的期望不断膨胀时会发生的事。所以储蓄的力量完全取决于你对生活的期望和想要的生活方式，我认为这是个非常有力的观点。

I remember waking when I had $5,000 and just being like, I can't even fathom how much this is. And now I don't get that feeling with that kind of money. And isn't that kind of sad? That's what happens when your expectations kind of kind of spiral up. So the idea that the power of your savings is completely dependent on the expectations of what you have and the lifestyle that you want to live, I think is a pretty powerful idea.

那该如何把关注点从痴迷赚钱转向理解储蓄的重要性呢？

How do you switch the focus though from this obsession of making more to understanding the importance of saving?

我一直认为——再次回到独立性的问题。如果你拿着高薪却需要这笔钱支付当年的账单，那你就毫无独立性可言。但如果降低期望和生活标准——仍然是好生活，不是极端节俭的生活——而你的储蓄能覆盖部分开支，这会让你更有满足感。听着，我当然想赚更多钱。

I've I've always viewed it as, again, back to independence. And if you are earning a high salary, but you need that money to to pay your bills this year, you have no independence whatsoever. But if you have lower expectations and a lower level of life, still a good life, not a not a completely frugal life, a good life, and your savings can cover some portion of that. That's gonna give you a better sense of contentment in there. And so look, I want to earn more money.

我希望今年比去年赚更多的钱，明年也要赚得更多。这也是我的目标。我认为雄心壮志是件美好的事。但同时我也拥有一定水平的储蓄，这让我明白即使明年收入没有增长，甚至收入骤降，我也能安然度过。

I want to earn more money this year than I did last year. I want to earn more money next year. I have that as well. I think ambition is a wonderful thing. But I also have a level of savings that would tell me that if I did not earn more money next year, even if my income collapsed next year, I'd be okay.

尤其在我这个有孩子的人生阶段，没有什么比这更重要了。如果明年我的事业崩溃，我们仍能保住房子，仍能依靠我二十五年来积累的储蓄维持生活。因为收入远比储蓄更不稳定。想想看，人这一生中被裁员的可能性有多大？

And particularly at this phase of my life with kids, nothing matters more than me to that. If my career collapsed next year, we'd still have our house. We'd still have this level of savings that I've been saving for for, you know, twenty five years having the savings built up to which we're gonna be okay. Because income can be much more fickle than savings. Is, you know, most people over the course of their life, what are the odds that you will get laid off at some point in your life?

非常高。

Very high.

几乎是必然的，非常确定。

Guaranteed. Very.

几乎百分百的概率，在你人生的某个阶段，收入会降为零。可能是一周，可能是一年，也可能——谁知道会持续多久——但它一定会发生。所以收入远比储蓄更不可靠。

Almost a 100% that at some point in your life, your income is gonna fall to zero. It might be for a week. It might be for a year. It might be for know, who knows how long it's gonna last, but it will happen to you. So income is much more fickle than savings.

当这种情况发生时（它终将发生，或许已经发生过），你前些年积累的储蓄将成为你想象中最宝贵的财富。

And when that happens to you, and it will, or maybe it already has, the savings that you've built up in the previous years is gonna be the most valuable thing that you've ever imagined.

摩根，你建议我们每次拿到薪水或收入时应该怎么做？

Morgan, what do you recommend we do every time we get a paycheck or get paid?

我将储蓄视为一项必要开支，就像看待房租、食品等支出一样。当然，这更具主观性——你并非像必须购买食物那样必须储蓄。但一旦你将储蓄视为可有可无的事项，几乎不可避免地就会逃避执行。当你认为'我不需要这么做'时，接下来就会演变成'我不应该这么做'。

I view savings as an expense, just as I would view rent or food or whatnot. Now, obviously, it is more subjective. You don't have to save in the sense that you have to buy food. But if but once you view savings as a nice to have, it's it's almost unavoidable that you're gonna you're gonna avoid doing it. Once you view it as I don't need to do this, you're gonna view it as I shouldn't do it then.

那么如果我将储蓄视为支出，该如何具体操作呢？

So how do I think about it if I think about it as an expense?

我认为储蓄是财务生活中最具价值的部分。我们不愿承认的是：生命比想象中脆弱，职业生涯比想象中脆弱，经济与地缘政治也比想象中脆弱——这正是必须储蓄的原因。如果我们生活在能精确预知未来收支的世界里，这一切都会非常简单。

I think about savings as the most valuable portion of my financial life. I think the idea that life is more fragile than we want to admit. Careers are more fragile than we want to admit. The economy and geopolitics are more fragile than we want to admit is why you should save. If we all lived in a world where we knew exactly how what our income and expenses would be in the future, this would all be very easy.

但现实并非如此。个人生活乃至整个国家、整个世界都充满未知与意外，因此储蓄是强制性的义务。就像每个人都有管理健康的责任——你必须关注健康，不能置之不理。

But we don't. It's a constant chain of of unknowns and surprises in your personal life and throughout the broader country, the broader world, and that's why savings is mandatory. And I just like I think everyone has an obligation to manage their health. You have to manage your health. You can't just put it off.

无论你是否愿意，健康问题终将影响你。我认为金钱同样属于这个范畴。即使你对理财毫无兴趣，也有义务去了解并重视它，因为无论你意愿如何，金钱问题都将深刻影响你的生活。

It's gonna affect you whether you like it or not. I think money falls in that bucket or two as well. Even if you don't have any desire to learn about money or finances, you have an obligation to learn about it and to respect it because it's gonna impact your life whether you like it or not.

我有个将储蓄转化为固定支出的方法：10%法则。无论收入多少，都存下10%。比如餐厅轮班获得50美元小费，就存5美元；周末帮人看狗赚100美元，就存10美元——这就是10%法则。

Here's one way that I have started treating savings like an expense. Use the 10% rule. No matter what you're getting paid, save 10%. So if you're working a restaurant shift and you get $50 in tips, save $5 That's the 10% rule. If you watch somebody's dogs this weekend and somebody's paying you a $100 to watch the dogs over the weekend, save $10 That's the 10% rule.

通过这种方式，无论收入高低，你都能将储蓄培养成习惯。

And that's how you can make savings a habit no matter how little or how much you make.

任何行动都远胜于无动于衷。我回想起年轻时——十几岁那会儿，攒下5美元、10美元的情景。我记得曾从支票账户转15美元到储蓄账户。对旁人而言这或许毫无意义，但当时的我深信：这就是未来的餐饭，是此刻拥有而从前没有的保障。‘有总比没有强’是最重要的黄金法则。

Anything is exponentially better than nothing. And I I meet people I I I remember when I was younger, when I was a teenager, saving $5, saving 10 I remember transferring $15 from my checking account to my savings account. And that might seem completely worthless to people, but it made sense to me back then of, like, that's that's that's a meal in my future that I have now that I didn't have before. Anything is better than nothing is is is the most important rule of thumb.

有没有简单有效的方法能让存钱成为习惯？

Is there a simple and effective way to make saving money a habit?

在财务领域，自动化是绝佳方案。比如设置银行自动转账，每次发薪日固定转50美元到储蓄账户（金额可自定）。越是能消除人为干预越好——毕竟人性皆有弱点，我们都受情绪支配。

Anytime in finance that you can automate it as well. K. So automating your bank and say every paycheck, you're gonna move $50 to savings, whatever it might be, and making it automatic. The more that you can take behavior out of the system, because we're all flawed. We're all emotional.

我们都有认知偏差，都面临社会压力。你我皆然。越是能用自动化替代情感决策，长期财务表现就越好。

We're all biased. We've all got social pressures. I do, you do, everybody does. The more that you can take emotion out and put automation in, the better you're gonna do over time.

对于那些仍在犹豫‘有什么意义？我连账单都付不起’的人，你想对他们说什么？

And for the person who's still thinking, I mean, what's the point? I can barely pay my bills. Do you want them to know?

首先我想说：我懂你。我感同身受且绝不评判。你是个好人，无需为此羞愧——全球有数亿人处于相同困境。意识到自己并不孤单，对多数人而言是种力量。很多人因储蓄匮乏、理财不善而背负内疚与羞耻。

The first thing I want you to know is I feel you. I empathize with you. I don't judge you. I'm sure you're a good person, and you should not be embarrassed about it because there are tens or hundreds of millions of other people in your shoes. So knowing that you're not alone, I think, is an empowering thing for most people because a lot of people look at their lack of savings, look at their poor financial skills, and they feel guilt, shame, and embarrassment.

但你不该如此。这现象极其普遍，不代表你人品有问题。其次你要明白：主动权在你手中。这正是我在《金钱心理学》中强调的。

And you shouldn't. This is a very, very common thing. It doesn't mean you're a bad person. But the second thing you should know is that it is in your control. I use this in the psychology of money.

这是个惊人的故事。主角叫罗纳德·里德。他出身于你能想象的最卑微、甚至可以说是贫困的家庭。成年后，他整个职业生涯都在做清洁工和加油站服务员。而当他去世时，却向慈善机构捐赠了数百万美元。

It's an astounding story. It's a guy named Ronald Reed. Ronald Reed came from the most humble, if not impoverished background that you can imagine. And even as an adult, he spent his entire career as a janitor and a gas station attendant. And when he died, he left millions of dollars to charity.

所有人都震惊了：一个清洁工哪来的几百万美元？这到底是怎么回事？答案是他省下每一分小钱——这里10美元，那里20美元，偶尔攒到100美元。他把这些钱投入股市，然后整整七十年不去动它，仅此而已。

And everyone was like, where the the janitor has millions of dollars? Like, what in the world happened here? And the answer was, he saved what little he could, $10 here, $20 there, maybe a $100 here. He invested in the stock market. He left it alone for like seventy years, and that's it.

这就是全部秘诀。你需要的不过如此。只要具备正确的行为和心态，假以时日，不需要其他花招就能获得非凡回报。

That's the whole story. And that's that's all you need. If you have the right behavior, if you have the right mindset, you don't need much else to even achieve extraordinary returns over time.

你知道，我从你作品中领悟的重要一课就是'知足常乐胜过贪得无厌'。我正在读你那本轰动一时的畅销书《花钱的艺术》第36页：'降低欲望对幸福感的提升效果，不亚于获得更多金钱。知足并不意味着放弃。'

You know, one of the big lessons from your work for me is also this idea that enough is better than more. And I'm reading from your blockbuster bestseller, The Art of Spending Money. This is page 36. Desiring less can have the same impact on your well-being as gaining more money. And desiring less does not mean giving up.

这并非说你不会花钱享受生活。我认为恰恰相反——对已有之物的满足感，才是真正享受你买的房子、穿的衣服、度的假期的深层方式。请展开谈谈这个观点。

It doesn't mean you don't know how to spend money and have a good time. I think it's quite the opposite. To be content with what you have is the deepest way to enjoy the house you've purchased, the clothes you wear, and the vacations you take. Talk to us about that.

知足不代表失去进取心。今年我想拼命工作赚尽可能多的钱，明年后年也是如此。但在全力以赴的同时，我需要用同等战略思维来管理预期。当你明白财富等于所有物减去欲望值时，这个差值越大，你就越痛苦。

Having enough does not mean you have no aspirations for more. I wanna work very hard this year earn as much money as I can. I wanna do that next year and the year after that. But with as much emphasis, with as much strategy and will, I wanna think about my expectations and keep my expectations in check. And when you realize that wealth is what you have versus what you want, and the the wider that gap is, the worse you're gonna feel.

这个差值越小，你就越幸福。你可以既怀有进取心，又对现有生活保持知足与感恩。这需要刻意练习，因为人性本能永远是'我要更多，得到后就会更快乐'。而对我们所处的世界、对已有之物而非欠缺之物心怀感激——这种境界需要反本能地持续修炼。

The narrower that gap is, the better you're gonna feel. You can mix aspirations for wanting more with contentment with what you have and appreciation for what you have as well. You have to go out of your way to think about it all the time because it's not normal and natural. What is normal and natural and everyone's knee jerk reaction is I want more, and once I have more, I'm gonna be happier about it. The idea of being gracious and having gratitude for the world that we live in, for what we have rather than what we don't have.

对我来说，这需要付出努力。但每位治疗师、每位心理学家都会告诉你感恩的力量有多么强大。这听起来可能有点模糊不清、软弱无力。比如，这怎么可能成为一件事呢？我认为，在心理学中，没有什么比控制你的期望并对已经拥有的东西心怀感激更强大的了。

For me, it takes effort to do that. But every therapist, every psychologist would tell you how powerful gratitude is. And it sounds kind of mushy and wishy washy. Like, how can that possibly be be a thing? Nothing in psychology, I think, is more powerful than keeping your expectations in check and being gracious for what you already have.

斯蒂芬·霍金有一句名言，这位伟大的科学家当然患有肌萎缩侧索硬化症，对自己的身体完全没有控制力。他甚至无法说话。他几乎整个成年生活都在轮椅上度过。在他去世前几年，他接受了《纽约时报》的采访。在采访中，他谈到了自己有多么难以置信的幸福，多么感激能够进行这项研究，以及他的生活有多么美好。

There's a great quote from Stephen Hawking, the great scientist who, of course, had ALS and, was had absolutely no control over his body. He could not even speak. He was in a wheelchair for his almost entire adult life. And he gave this interview with the New York Times several years before he died. And in the interview, he was talking about how unbelievably happy he was, and how grateful he was to be able to do this research and how great his life is.

如果我们中有谁有权利抱怨生活，那就是像斯蒂芬·霍金这样的人。如果有谁有权利醒来时说，生活对我不公平，我嫉妒你们和我。那就是他。但他没有。他非常快乐。

And if there's any of us who have the right to complain about life, it's somebody like Stephen Hawking. If there's anyone who has the right to wake up and say, was dealt an unfair hand in life, and I'm so jealous of you and me. It's him. And he wasn't. He was so happy.

于是《纽约时报》问他，他们说，你快乐的秘诀是什么？他说，当我21岁时，我的期望降到了零。那时他得了病。他说从那以后的一切都是额外的奖励。正是这种处理悲剧的方式让他更容易对自己所拥有的东西心怀感激。

And so the New York Times asked him, they said, what's your secret to happiness? And he said, my expectations were reduced to zero when I was 21. That's when he got his disease. He said everything else since then has been a bonus. And it just made him in that dealing with that tragedy made it much easier for him to exercise gratitude for what he did have.

显然，我希望自己不会处于那种境地。我希望你们不会，也希望没有人会处于那种境地。但不可否认的是，当你经历那种创伤时，无论创伤是什么，可能是失去工作，可能是离婚，无论是什么，它都能让你更接近欣赏你所拥有的东西。

Now, obviously, I hope to not be in that situation. I hope you not and I hope nobody is in that situation. But it's unavoidably true that when you experience that kind of trauma, whatever the trauma might be, it can be losing a job, it can be divorced, whatever it is, that it can push you closer towards appreciating what you do have.

你如何看待那句‘一切归零，所以发生的任何事情都成了额外奖励’的话？是的。并利用这种哲学来改变你对金钱的心态。因为你刚才分享的很多东西我认为非常重要。我希望那些可能没有储蓄、靠薪水过活的听众能够接受你与我们分享的一切，并真正使用这两种工具。

How do you take that quote, everything was reduced to zero, so anything else that happened became a bonus? Yeah. And use that philosophy to change your mindset about money. Because there was so much that you just shared that I think is super important. And I want the person listening who maybe has no savings, who's living paycheck to paycheck, to be able to take everything that you've shared with us and really use these two tools.

因为你说的是，无论是不断将自己与他人比较，还是对现状有过高的期望，或者是感恩的力量，以及停下来一分钟，意识到你现在的处境，并根据你今天与我们分享的一切改变你的行为。

Because what you're saying is whether it's constantly comparing yourself to other people, or having outsized expectations for where you are, or the power of being grateful and just stopping for a minute, that you are where you are and that you can change your behaviors based on everything that you've shared with us today,

那个

that

那是个立足点。是的，可以在此基础上展开。比如，我们如何立即运用这一点来转变我们的思维方式？

that's a foothold Yeah. To be able to work with. Like, how do we apply this to flip our mindset right away?

多年前我们读到一个故事，关于一个家庭，丈夫、妻子和两三个孩子，他们的房子被烧毁了。完全烧成了灰烬。他们失去了一切。那个他们成长并憧憬未来的家。当房子烧毁时，每个人都心烦意乱，泪流满面。

We were reading the story many years ago about a family, husband, wife, and two or three kids, and their house burned down. Burned complete to the ground. They lost everything. The house that they had grown up in and imagined their future being in. And when their house burned down, everyone is distraught and in tears.

我们失去了一切。然后母亲把大家聚在一起说，伙计们，我们幸福所需的一切都在这里。我们五个人，这就是我们每个人幸福所需的一切。就在这里。我们拥有彼此。

We lost everything. And the mom gathers everyone together and says, guys, everything that we need to be happy is right here. The five of us, this is all that any of us ever need to be happy. It's right here. We have each other.

我们失去了所有物质的东西，但那些都不重要。我们拥有的一切都在这里。我认为每个人的生活中都有某种类似的情况，无论你的家庭状况如何，你现在已经拥有了所有能让你尽可能快乐所需的工具。这不是要轻视你的问题。只是说一切都在于期望与现实之间的差距，而你此刻已经掌握了这些工具。

We lost everything material, but none of that mattered. Everything we have is right here. I think there is some version of that in everybody's life, regardless of what your family situation is that you have all the tools that you need right now to be as happy as you are capable of becoming. It's not to discount your problems. It's just that everything is the gap between expectations and reality, and you have those tools right now.

我认为，如果你刻意不去与自己所没有的比较，而是欣赏你在生活的任何阶段所拥有的，你会更接近你试图达到的那种感觉，即满足感。而不是醒来就问，我缺少什么，那将填补什么空缺？而是醒来后想，看，我对自己情绪的控制感到非常感激。我对未来充满希望感到感激。我感激我能控制这些想法，而不被社会所左右，并由此前进。

And I think if you go out of your way to not compare yourself to what you don't have, but to appreciate what you do have at any level of life, I think you get a little bit closer to that feeling of what you're trying to get to, which is contentment. And rather than waking up and saying, what don't I have and what hole is that gonna fill? You're waking up and being like, look, I'm pretty grateful for the control that I have over my emotions. I'm grateful for the hope that I have in the future. I'm grateful that I can control those thoughts without them being dictated by society and move ahead from there.

我喜欢这个观点。这也是在你摆脱自我阻碍后，加倍发挥你能力的一种方式。对吧。莫林，如果听众想改变他们对自己讲述的关于金钱的故事，你会说，从今以后你应该对自己说什么样的故事？

I love it. It's also a way to double down on what you are capable of doing once you get out of your own way. Right. Morin, if the person who's listening wants to change a story they tell themselves about money, what is the story that you would say, this is what you should say to yourself from this point forward?

金钱能让你更快乐。拥有更多钱、花更多钱确实能提升幸福感，只是方式与程度可能与你想象的不同。你可以将其作为工具来改善生活，这很棒。但更常见的是，它沦为衡量社会地位的标尺，让人不断与他人攀比。我们反复强调这一点，因为在当今时代，金钱最关键的属性在于——它极易被量化，而社会已将净资产等同于个人价值，使之成为成功的标准。

Money can make you happier. Having more money, spending more money can make you happier, just not in the way that you probably think and not as much as you probably think. That you can use it as a tool to live a better life, and that is a great thing. It can also be much more commonly a yardstick of status to measure yourself against others by. We've repeated that multiple times because I think it's the most important thing today in this era about money is that because it's so easy to measure, it's so easy to quantify, and our society has made it so that that is the level of success, that your net worth is equal to your self worth.

这显然是个扭曲且有害的叙事。当你学会控制期待、驾驭情绪、对现有事物心怀感恩时——我认为这才是终极财富。真正的富足不在于净资产数字，而在于掌控思想的能力与知足常乐的心态。

And it's obviously a broken and damaging story. And once you exercise controlling your expectations, controlling your emotions, having gratitude for what you do have, I think that's the ultimate that's the ultimate wealth for me. It's not necessarily about what your net worth is. It's your ability to control what you think and be grateful for what you do have.

如果与我们共度这段时光的听众今天要践行你分享的某个建议，你认为这场对话后最该立即采取的行动是什么？

If the person who's spent this time together with us takes one action today from everything that you've shared, what do you think the most important thing to do coming out of this conversation?

要明白：他人对你的关注度远低于你的想象。我们常将目标与取悦他人绑定，实则他们无暇顾及——因为他们正忙着操心自己。这是控制期待的第一步。唯有掌控了期待，才能接近金钱的终极意义——知足。

Realize that other people are not thinking about you as much as you are. That you and your goals are often attached to wanting to impress other people, but they're not paying attention because they are busy worrying about themselves. That's the first step to controlling your expectations. Once you can control your expectations, you get much closer to what I think the ultimate goal is, which is being content with your money.

此刻对我而言，最重要的是感谢你。你的工作深刻改变了我的生活。所以谢谢你，再三感谢你的贡献，也感谢你今天的到来。

Well, the most important thing, for me right now is to thank you. You and your work have made a huge difference in my life. And so thank you, thank you, thank you for what you do, and thank you for being here with us today.

谢谢梅尔，这次交流很愉快。感谢邀请，这是我的荣幸。

Thank you, Mel. This has been fun. Thank you for having me. You're welcome.

我也要感谢你。感谢你花时间聆听这些能改善财务生活的建议。他多次谈及独立，而我从中听出的是自由。当你实践这些简单方法时，我保证你不仅会获得更多自主权，更将体验到解放感。最后，作为朋友我想告诉你：我爱你，相信你，也坚信你有能力创造更美好的生活。

And I also wanna thank you. Thank you for making the time listen to something that is going to improve your financial life. He talked a lot about independence, and what I heard in that was freedom. And when you apply the simple things that he told you to do, I promise you, you're not only gonna gain more independence, you are gonna feel freer. And one more thing, in case no one else tells you this, as your friend, I wanted to be sure to tell you that I love you and I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to create a better life.

毫无疑问，如果你我都能运用摩根今天教导的一切，我们将创造并过上更好的生活。好了，我会等着你们。下一集一开始，我就会在你们按下播放键的那一刻迎接你们，那将会非常精彩。

There is no doubt in my mind, if you and I apply everything that Morgan taught us today, we will create and we will live a better life. Alrighty. I will be waiting for you. In the very next episode, I'll welcome you in the moment you hit play. It's gonna be dynamite.

太棒了。

Great.

摩根，尽管你是地球上最具说服力的金融专家之一，你的孩子们却不会听你的。不，当然不会。我只是...哦...

Even though you're one of the most compelling financial experts on the planet, your kids won't listen to you, Morgan. No. Of course not. I just Oh. Oh.

好的。哦，是的。太棒了，伙计们。

Okay. Oh, yes. Wonderful, guys.

那真是了不起。

That's awesome.