人工智能与大学的未来

我是鲁弗斯·格里斯科姆，接下来要谈的是一个重大构想。

I'm Rufus Griscom, and this is the next big idea.

今天，我们要探讨人工智能时代美国大学的未来。

Today, the future of the American university in the age of AI.

上大学现在还是个明智的选择吗？

Is going to college still a good idea?

埃隆·马斯克认为大学本质上是为了娱乐和证明你能完成分内之事，而非为了学习。

Elon Musk says college is basically for fun and to prove you can do your chores, but they're not for learning.

与此同时，企业家兼投资人彼得·蒂尔将大学文凭比作伪装下的傻瓜帽。

Entrepreneur and investor Peter Thiel, meanwhile, has called the college diploma a dunce cap in disguise.

他更是言行一致，向300多名同意辍学的年轻人开出了六位数的支票。

And he's putting his money where his mouth is, writing 6 figure checks to more than 300 young people who agreed to skip school.

风险投资家本·霍洛维茨曾称大学是个骗局。

Ben Horowitz, the venture capitalist, has called college a scam.

而杰夫·贝索斯则指出，我们熟知的那些著名辍学生——比尔·盖茨、史蒂夫·乔布斯、马克·扎克伯格——都是规则的例外。

Jeff Bezos, meanwhile, has made the point that the famous college dropouts we think of, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg, are exceptions to the rule.

贝索斯说，我是在30岁时创立亚马逊的，而不是20岁。

Bezos said, I started Amazon when I was 30, not when I was 20.

我认为那额外的十年经验实际上提高了亚马逊成功的概率。

And I think that extra ten years of experience actually improved the odds that Amazon would succeed.

所以这永远是我的建议，他说。

So that would always be my advice, he said.

我完成了大学学业，我认为这对我很有帮助。

I finished college, and I think it's been helpful to me.

这不仅仅是某种理论上的辩论。

This is not just some kind of theoretical debate.

这很个人化。

It's personal.

大约十五分钟前，我刚支付了我20岁儿子春季学期的大学学费，总是很心疼。

About fifteen minutes ago, I processed a payment for my 20 year old son's spring semester of college, always painful.

而我17岁的儿子目前正处于大学申请过程中。

My 17 year old son, meanwhile, is in the middle of his college application process.

在这方面我并不孤单。

And I'm not alone in this.

美国大学的未来问题，更广泛地说，我们的教育体系需要如何发展，关系到我们大多数人。

The question of the future of the American university, not to mention more broadly, how our education system needs to evolve, touches most of us.

当然，这是一个更大问题的前兆。

And of course, it's a precursor to a larger question.

我们正在为孩子们准备一个怎样的世界？

What world are we preparing our children for?

我们该如何最好地为他们做好准备？

And how best can we prepare them?

几年后——更不用说十年后——我们将拥有哪些工作？

What jobs will we have in a few years, not to mention a decade from now?

大学的目的究竟是为工作做准备，还是为更广阔的人生做准备？

And is the purpose of college to prepare us for work or for life more broadly?

最近我有幸与四位特别有资格回答这些问题的人探讨了这些话题。

I recently had the pleasure of discussing these questions with four people unusually well qualified to answer them.

纳比哈·赛义德是Mozilla基金会的执行董事。

Nabiha Syed is the executive director of the Mozilla Foundation.

她领导全球可信人工智能倡议，动用数亿美元预算确保未来教育中的人工智能系统服务于人类，而非仅追求企业利润。

She leads the global charge for trustworthy AI, deploying their multi $100,000,000 budget to ensure that the AI systems powering future education serve humanity, not just corporate profit.

对于那些声称'大学已死'的人

For all the people who are like, college is dead.

我要付钱让这些年轻人离开，进入另一栋建筑去创造些东西

I'm gonna pay these young people money to leave and come in this other building and build a thing.

这在我看来简直和大学没什么两样

Sounds a hell of a lot like a college to me.

实际上他们还在支付报酬，这听起来就像奖学金

In fact, they're paying them, and that sounds like a scholarship to me.

纽约科学院院长兼首席执行官尼古拉斯·德克斯正在创建培养跨学科伦理领袖的项目，这些未来大学所需的人才兼具技术与人文专长。

Nicholas Dirks, president and CEO of the New York Academy of Sciences, is creating programs to produce the ethical interdisciplinary leaders with expertise in both tech and humanities that the future university demands.

真正的挑战将在于：我们如何既要适应这个我们将讨论的新技术未来，同时又要保障优质高等教育的可及性。

The real challenge then is going to be how do we simultaneously adjust to this new technological future about which we'll be talking, but also preserve access to quality higher education.

Tech NYC的总裁兼首席执行官朱莉·塞缪尔斯正在动员纽约整个科技生态系统，为来自各个专业（不仅是工程专业）的学生提供现代经济所需的人工智能技能。

Julie Samuels, president and CEO of Tech NYC, is mobilizing New York's entire tech ecosystem to arm students from every major, not just engineering, with the AI skills the modern economy requires.

在这些技术快速变革的转折点上，我们必须努力确保尽可能不让任何人掉队，这项工作至关重要。

These inflection points, when the technology changes rapidly, it is so important that we do the work to ensure that we try our hardest not to leave people behind.

马修·约翰逊·罗伯逊是范德堡大学全新成立的互联计算学院的院长。

And Matthew Johnson Roberson is the dean of the brand new College of Connected Computing at Vanderbilt.

这是该校四十年来首次设立的新学院，其使命是打破学科壁垒，将人工智能融入从法律到人文艺术的每一个学科领域。

This is the university's first new college in forty years with a mission to dismantle silos and inject AI into every single discipline, from law to the liberal arts.

我希望高等教育界能思考如何利用人工智能作为加速器，用它来增强学生体验，实现更多可能。

And I'm hoping that, you know, higher ed thinks about how it can use AI as an accelerator, as a way of enhancing the student experience, of doing more.

我们在范德堡大学位于纽约市切尔西区的新校区进行了这场现场对话，场地是一个有着拱顶天花板的宽敞房间——这里曾是神学院总院的食堂。

We had this conversation live in Vanderbilt's new campus in the Chelsea neighborhood in New York City, in an expansive room with vaulted ceilings, which was the refectory of the General Theological Seminary.

谈话时我能听到新旧时代声音的回响。

I could hear as we talked the echoes of God's new and old.

本期《下一个大创意》节目由Aura和GoDaddy赞助播出。

Today's episode of The Next Big Idea is sponsored by Aura and GoDaddy.

用Aura相框提前开启节日季。

Get a head start on the holidays with Aura Frames.

限时优惠：访问 auraframes.com，使用促销代码idea结账，即可享受Aura最畅销的Carver Matte相框45美元折扣，该产品被Wirecutter评为第一名。

For a limited time, visit aura frames dot com and get $45 off Aura's best selling Carver Matte frames, named number one by Wirecutter by using promo code idea at checkout.

如果你经营在线业务并希望与客户建立信任，你需要一个合适的域名。

If you're running a business online and you wanna build trust with your customers, you need the right domain.

这就是GoDaddy的用武之地。

That's where GoDaddy comes in.

立即访问godaddy.com/gd，即可享受域名和专业邮箱套餐，首年仅需每月99美分。

Visit godaddy.com/gd now, and you can get a domain and professional email plan for just 99¢ a month for one year.

谢谢。

Thank you.

哇。

Wow.

多么精彩的讨论组。

What a panel.

这房间真不错。

What a room.

这个话题真有意思。

What a topic.

很高兴能和大家一起在这里。

It's great to be here with you all.

Sun Microsystems联合创始人兼风险投资家维诺德·科斯拉最近表示，大学学位已经过时了。

Vinod Khosla, the Sun Microsystems cofounder and venture capitalist, said recently, college degrees are dead.

OpenAI首席执行官萨姆·阿尔特曼最近被问到，他今年刚出生的孩子将来是否会上大学。

Sam Altman, the CEO of OpenAI, was asked recently if his child, who was just born this year, would go to college.

他说，很可能不会。

He said, probably not.

关于美国大学消亡的传言是否被夸大了？

Are the rumors of the death of the American university exaggerated?

让我们先从纳比哈开始。

Let's start with Nabiha.

人们聚集在一起向专家学习这一模式不会消失。

People gathering together to learn from experts is not going anywhere.

这种形式本身不会改变。

Like, that shape of it is not going anywhere.

专家会是谁呢？

Who will the experts be?

他们会在哪里聚集？

Where do they gather?

学习者又是哪些人？

Who the people are?

这些都是可塑的，全球各地的大学已经在这方面发生了变化。

That's malleable, and that has changed in the in universities throughout the world.

我这么说是因为，过去十年间，Mozilla基金会一直在三大洲的57个不同机构资助负责任的技术教育。

And I say this, Mozilla Foundation has been funding responsible technology education at 57 different institutions on three continents for the last decade.

因此这种教育形式，看起来会有些不同。

And so that act, it's gonna look a little bit different.

它会不断演变。

It'll evolve.

但学习的核心不会改变。

But that core of learning, not changing.

关键在于，大学不仅仅关乎学习。

The thing is that, like, a college isn't just about learning.

对吧？

Right?

大学还承担着其他功能。

There's other things that the college does.

如果你思考大学的其他职能——阶级流动、就业与社交网络搭建、培养未来创造力与学习自信，以及作为知识生产的基地，比如深度研究和知识创造。

So if you think about the other functions of a university, class mobility between getting jobs and building networks, the future of creativity and confidence in your ability to learn, and then a site of knowledge production, like deep research and knowledge production.

获取大学学位的经济因素变化对这些方面影响深远，而不仅仅是人们是否会聚在一起学习。

The shifting economics of getting a college degree affects those three things really significantly, not just like, will people get together to learn.

因为值得注意的是，对那些宣称'大学已死'的人来说。

Because it's worth noting for all the people who are like, college is dead.

我要付钱让这些年轻人离开，去另一栋楼里建造一样东西。

I'm gonna pay these young people money to leave and come to this other building and build a thing.

听起来简直和大学没什么两样。

Sounds a hell of a lot like a college to me.

实际上他们还在付钱给这些人，这在我看来就像奖学金。

In fact, they're paying them, and that sounds like a scholarship to me.

尼克，你对美国大学的演变有着丰富经验。

Well, Nick, you have a lot of experience with the evolution of the American university.

你曾在哥伦比亚大学、伯克利分校担任领导职务，现在又任职于纽约科学院。

You've you've been a leader at at Columbia, at Berkeley, now the New York Academy of Sciences.

你见证大学面临过无数挑战与机遇，而AI是最新的课题。

You've seen the universities face any number of challenges and opportunities, and AI is the latest of those.

你有什么看法？

What's your perspective?

首先，你们从山姆·奥特曼等人对未来预测的话题开始谈起。

So first of all, you started with Sam Altman, among others, making predictions about the future.

当然，如果你想追随山姆·奥特曼，你可以向至今仍无明确盈利模式的OpenAI投入100亿美元，然后看看效果如何。

And of course if you want to follow Sam Altman you can put $10,000,000,000 into OpenAI which still doesn't have a revenue model and see how that works out.

但事实是，几十年来一直有非常睿智的人预言大学和高等教育机构的终结。

But the truth is that very, very wise people have been predicting the end of college and the end of the university for decades.

彼得·德鲁克在三十五年前就预言过。

Peter Drucker did thirty five years ago.

著名的克莱顿·克里斯坦森，我记得他在2005年说过，十五年内美国现有的学位授予高校中将有一半会倒闭。

Famously Clayton Christensen, I think, in 2005 said that in fifteen years, half of the current degree granting colleges and universities in The United States would have folded.

当然，我们也经常听到硅谷这样的论调：大学教育已经过时了。

And of course, we hear this all the time from the Silicon Valley that college is over.

这确实是一种难以维系的模式，尤其是在大语言模型和人工智能兴起的当下。

It's really a form that cannot survive, especially now with LLMs and AI.

但另一个事实是，当前确实是高校面临极大挑战的时期。

The truth is also though that this is a very, very challenging time for colleges and universities.

我认为，除了AI带来的冲击外，2011年后学生债务的增长、对高校信任度的下降、近期政府对科研的政治打压，甚至疫情的影响，都使得像范德比尔特、伯克利这类顶尖高校尚能存活，但许多院校将难以为继。

And I think AI added on to all the other kinds of things, the growth of indebtedness after 2011, the rise of distrust in universities, clearly the recent political assaults by the administration on research, and even the effects of the pandemic leave us in a position, I think, where the top tier of universities, the Vanderbilts, the Berkleys, and so on, will survive, but a lot of them won't.

我认为真正的挑战将在于，我们如何既要适应这个我们将要讨论的新技术未来，又要保障优质高等教育的可及性。

And I think the real challenge then is going to be how do we simultaneously adjust to this new technological future about which we'll be talking, but also preserve access to quality higher education.

朱莉，作为Tech NYC的首席执行官，你一直在通过'解码未来'和'未来就绪'等计划积极帮助学校适应技术变革。

Julie, as CEO of Tech NYC, you've been actively helping schools adapt to the changing tech landscape through initiatives like Decoded Futures and Future Ready.

在你看来，当前学校在人工智能方面的发展现状如何？我们正朝着什么方向发展？

In your opinion, what do you see happening right now with schools in AI, and where are we headed?

所以情况非常分散。

So it's all over the place.

回答你的问题，现状确实非常分散。

To answer your question, it is all over the place.

有学区、私立学校、公立学校，目前还没有统一的解决方案。

You've got school districts, you've got private schools, public schools, and there is no single playbook right now.

情况真的非常混乱。

It's really, really messy.

我们纽约市与公立学校有很多合作，帮助思考课程设置问题。

We, in New York City, partner a lot with the public schools, you know, helping think through curriculum.

我们与学校合作取得了更多成功，让学生有机会接触科技行业工作者，了解科技公司，并观察这些产品在现实世界中的应用，因为他们毕业后将进入一个AI工具无处不在的世界。

We have much more success partnering with the schools so that students have access to meet people who work in tech, to learn about tech companies, to see how the products work in the real world because they will graduate into a world where AI tools are prevalent.

无论你是否愿意，这都无关紧要。

Whether you want them to or not, it doesn't matter.

另一方面，我们参与的一个项目——Empire AI，是我几乎最引以为豪的。这是与州长及其团队，以及纽约州立大学系统（SUNY）、纽约市立大学系统（CUNY）、哥伦比亚大学、康奈尔大学、纽约大学、伦斯勒理工学院等机构合作的项目，我们正在布法罗建造一台最先进的计算机。

The other end of the spectrum, a project that we've worked on that I'm almost the most proud of, of any project, is something called Empire AI, which is something we've done in partnership with the governor and her team, and a number of New York State institutions, SUNY, CUNY, Columbia Cornell, NYU, RPI, etcetera, etcetera, were building a state of the art computer in Buffalo.

它将与私营企业的设备相媲美。

And it will rival the private sector companies.

世界上没有其他类似的学术计算机。

There is no other academic computer like it in the world.

学术合作伙伴和研究人员是唯一能使用这台机器及其算力的人。

And the academic partners, the researchers, are the only people who have access to that machine and to that compute.

这是独一无二的，纽约州是唯一进行此类实践的地方。

And it is an n of one, and New York State is the only place doing it.

它名为Empire AI，目前已经投入运行。

And it's called Empire AI, and it is already up and running.

它已经具有变革性，而我们才刚刚起步。

It is already transformative, and we are just a fraction of the way in.

因此，我们不仅需要考虑课程设置，还要思考如何确保学术界不会在私营部门一味追逐利润时被抛在后面——无论这种利润是否

So we also need to think about not just our curriculum, but how we are ensuring that the academy doesn't get left behind when the private sector is just, like, chasing the profit, whether or

真实存在，正如你所说。

not that profit exists, as you said.

马特，从某些方面来说，你就是这一切的答案——AI以及AI与教育融合所带来的新挑战与新机遇。

And, Matt, you are in some respects the answer to all this, the new both challenges and opportunities that, that AI, and the convergence of AI in education present.

你是范德堡大学新成立的互联计算学院的院长。

You are the dean of the new College of Connected Computing at Vanderbilt.

你们正在建设什么？你如何看待所面临的风险与机遇？

What is it that you're building, and and what do you see as the risks and opportunities that that you face?

是的。

Yeah.

我们正在尝试构建一个我认为将会非常激动人心的项目，不仅对学生，对研究人员，也希望对整个社会都能如此。

We're trying to build something that I think is gonna be really, really exciting, both for students, but for researchers, and hopefully for the larger community.

核心构想是，虽然已有大量研究和精力投入AI领域，但很少有人真正思考AI将如何变革其他领域，以及如何以更广阔的视角来看待这一问题。

The idea is that there's so much research and thought and work going into AI, but there hasn't been a ton of that invested in thinking about how AI is gonna transform other fields and thinking about it with a much broader lens.

因此我们提出‘全民计算’的理念。

And so this idea of computing for all.

我们该如何理解这项技术对每个人的意义？

So how do we think about what this technology means to everyone?

因为我认为长期以来，这个领域一直处于孤立状态。

Because I think for so long, it's been siloed.

我们想到计算机科学家时，往往看到的是营利性部门主导着这项技术对我们生活的影响方式。

And we think about computer scientists, in many cases, the for profit sector really dominating the way that this technology affects all of our lives.

而我认为研究这种现象，探讨有多少领域不仅将面临挑战，更有望实现转型、改进和某种程度的进步。

And I think the study of that, the research of that, and thinking about how many fields are not gonna be challenged by this, but hopefully transformed, improved, and to some degree advanced.

对我来说，这正是‘互联计算学院’最令人振奋的地方。

I think that to me is what excites me about the College of Connected Computing.

我期待高等教育界能思考如何将AI作为加速器，用它来提升学生体验，实现更多可能。

And I'm hoping that higher ed thinks about how it can use AI as an accelerator, as a way of enhancing the student experience, of doing more.

我认为这种二元对立观点——认为应该废除大学因为我们能用其他方式做得更好——忽视了高等教育机构数百年来一直具备的迭代本质，即不断适应社会需求、折射社会现象，并持续改进和提供真正有价值的东西：一个致力于知识创造与传播而非单纯追求利润的实体。

And I think this dichotomy of we should get rid of college because we can do it better some other way, I think fails to see the iterative nature of what we've been doing in colleges and universities for hundreds of years, which is to adapt, to refract what we see in society and to figure out how to better improve and deliver what I think is still something really valuable, which is an entity dedicated to the creation of knowledge, the dissemination of knowledge, and not for simply profit.

我的意思是，当然我们可以把生活中的一切都交给营利性公司，但那样做似乎会让人非常沮丧。

And I mean, I'm sure we could turn everything in our lives over to for profit companies, but that seems like it'd be a real bummer.

而且，我其实挺喜欢非营利机构的存在——那些致力于其他使命的人正在教育我们的孩子。

And like, I kinda like the idea that not for profits, people that are dedicated to some other mission are out here teaching our kids.

不过，这大概只是我个人的浅见罢了。

But, know, that's just, I guess, my 2¢.

顺便说一句，我开场引用硅谷重量级人物'大学已死'的言论其实是故意挑衅。

I should say, by the way, that I I was intentionally being provocative by opening with statements from Silicon Valley, heavyweight saying that the the universities is over.

我注意到他们的子女可都还在上大学呢。

Their children, I've noticed, are all attending universities.

我能插句话吗？

Can I also say Yeah?

只有在硅谷才会听到这种言论。

Only in Silicon Valley do they say those things.

确实如此。

Exactly.

在东海岸可没人说这种话。

They do not say those things on the East Coast.

没错。

Right.

确实是这样。

True true that.

确实如此。

True that.

但在我们的对话中，马特，你提到你认为这对当今学生来说既是充满挑战也是令人兴奋的时刻。

But in our conversation, Matt, you've said that you see this as a time that's both challenging and exciting for students today.

为什么你认为现在做学生很困难，又为什么觉得令人兴奋？

Why do you think it's difficult to be a student today and why is it exciting?

两点原因。

Two things.

这不是一个巨变的时代。

This isn't a time of immense change.

所以我不想轻描淡写这一点。

So I don't wanna underplay that.

我认为学生处于相当脆弱的境地，因为他们正在开启一段多年旅程——在多数情况下这意味着要暂时脱离劳动力市场和社会，去学习知识，然后希望运用这些知识做些新的事情。

And I think students are in a pretty vulnerable position because they are embarking on, in many cases, a kind of multi year journey taking themselves out of the workforce to some degree out of society to kind of learn and then hopefully go and do something new with that knowledge.

我觉得当你追踪一个移动目标时，很难预测这段旅程结束后自己会面临什么。

And I think it's really hard if you're tracking a moving target to figure out what's gonna happen to you on the other side of this.

我认为这种不确定性叠加AI可能带来的经济影响，若完全显现，确实会导致处于职业发展阶梯底层的人群面临更少工作机会。

I think the combination of that and the sort of economic impacts of AI, if fully realized, could real result in less jobs for people really low on the ladder of of sort of progression.

所以这些都是切实的担忧。

And so I think those are real concerns.

因此当我与学生交流时，他们反复向我表达的一个忧虑就是：害怕毕业时将面对一个没有自己岗位的就业市场。

And so when I when I meet with students, one of the things that they, you know, continually say to me is they're concerned that they're gonna graduate out into a job market for which there's no job for them.

如果我们想兑现大学教育的承诺——不是唯一承诺但重要承诺之一——就必须思考：如何让学生为毕业后可能截然不同的经济环境做好准备，这取决于这些预测最终会实现多少。

And I think if we wanna fulfill not the only promise, but one of the promises of what we're trying to do with the college education, we have to think about how do we prepare students for graduating out into an economy that may look somewhat different or very different depending on how true these predictions end up being.

从学生的视角来看，他们当下的体验

Shifting to the students' perspective, the experience that students are having today.

朱莉，你之前跟我讲过你孩子们去大都会艺术博物馆前的一些准备

Julie, you told me something about what your kids did recently before a trip to the Metropolitan Museum of Art.

能分享一下这个故事吗？以及它对我们可能有什么启示？

Can you share that story and maybe what its implications might be for us?

我有三个孩子

So I have I've got three kids.

我们住在西区，但离博物馆很近

We live on the West Side, but we live by the museum.

他们去过大都会博物馆无数次了

They've been to the Met a million times.

通常那里并不是他们最喜欢的地方

It's not their favorite place usually.

但我10岁的孩子最近迷上了《波西·杰克逊》这本书

But my 10 year old has been really into the Percy Jackson book.

所以他对希腊和罗马故事越来越感兴趣。

So he's getting very interested in Greek and Roman stories.

前几天，他们去了大都会博物馆。

And the other day, they went to the Met.

我和其中一个孩子留在家里。

I stayed home with one of the kids.

我丈夫带着两个大孩子去了大都会博物馆。

My my husband took the two older kids to the Met.

他们玩得很开心，然后回家了。

And they had a great time, and they came home.

我10岁的孩子说：你绝对猜不到我做了什么。

My 10 year old's like, you're never gonna believe what I did.

他说：我上了GPT，让GPT设计了一个寻宝游戏。

And he said, I went on GPT, and I asked GPT to create a scavenger hunt.

他们去参观了大都会博物馆的希腊罗马展区。

They went to see the Greek and Roman section of the Met.

他设计了一个寻宝游戏，他们打印出来，他还仔细核对了所有内容。

And he created a scavenger hunt, and they printed it out, and he had checked everything.

这简直是他们在博物馆里有过的最棒体验。

And it was like their best experience in the museum they've ever had.

要知道，他们从小到大一直去这家博物馆。

And again, they've been going to this museum their entire lives.

这次经历实在太棒了。

And it was awesome.

这让整个博物馆都变得生动起来。

And it made the museum come alive.

也让他正在读的那些书变得鲜活有趣。

It made the books he's reading come alive.

顺便说一句，这些都是他独立完成的。

And by the way, he did it all on his own.

直到他回家我才知道这件事，简直让我惊喜不已。

I did not know until he got home that it happened, and it just blew my mind.

这简直太神奇了。

It was totally amazing.

就像，哦，没错。

And it was like, oh, right.

这就是潜力所在。

This is this is the potential.

这就是机会。

This is the opportunity.

虽然我的孩子有资源，但说实话，要做他做的事其实并不需要很多资源。

And my kids got resources, but the truth is you don't need a lot of resources to do what he did.

所以把这些工具交到孩子们手中，你知道，遍布纽约市乃至全世界，这真是件值得深思的奇妙事情。

So to put those tools in the hands of kids, you know, all over New York City, all over the world, really, is an amazing thing to think about.

那么当你与学校合作时，你认为老师在AI及其与教育体系整合方面是否也需要向孩子们学习？

And and when you're working with schools, do you think that the teachers have as much to learn from the kids when it comes to AI and how to integrate it with the

教育体系？

school system?

绝对如此。

Absolutely.

而且，你知道，就连我自己的孩子，他们有些老师很有趣很酷，有些则不然，这就像对待任何新技术一样。

And and, know, even my own children, they've got some teachers who interesting and cool and some who don't, and it's like any new technology in that way.

但在这些时刻，这些技术快速变革的转折点上，我们努力确保尽可能不让人掉队是至关重要的。

But these moments, these inflection points, when the technology changes rapidly, it is so important that we do the work to ensure that we try our hardest not to leave people behind.

而且，我儿子有两位在科技行业工作的父母，所以对他来说这真的很容易接触到。

And, my son has two parents who work in tech, and so that was really easy and accessible for him.

但作为一个社会，我们需要确保不仅仅因为迪伦有两位科技行业的父母，他就应该在这方面比其他人强得多。

But he shouldn't As a society, we need to make sure that it's not just because Dylan's got two parents in tech that he's gonna be so much better at this than everyone else.

所以我们花了很多时间思考这些真正重要的公平性问题。

So we spend a lot of time thinking about the really important equity questions.

而这些转折点正是它们变得尤为关键的时刻。

And these inflection points are when they really become just so much more crucial.

是的。

Yep.

纳比哈德，你跟我提到过你城里的许多朋友都把孩子们转到了阿尔法学校。

Nabihad, you mentioned to me that many of your friends in the city are moving their kids to Alpha Schools.

你能分享一下什么是阿尔法学校吗？以及它们可能预示着教育将走向何方？

Could you share what alpha schools are and what they might say about where education's heading?

是的。

Yeah.

阿尔法学校奉行一种非常独特的理念，认为可以将学习行为浓缩为两小时由人工智能介导的游戏化界面，其余时间则用于项目制学习。

Alpha schools are very particular philosophy that you could condense the act of learning into a two hour AI mediated interface, of gamified, and the rest of the time is used for project based learning.

如果你认为学习基本上就像把事实塞进鸭子嘴里准备做成鹅肝酱，那当然没问题。

If you think that learning is basically like shoving facts into a duck's mouth preparing it to be foie gras, sure.

嗯，好吧。

Like, fine.

这样似乎也行。

That seems fine.

但这不是我对学习行为的理解。

But that is not how I see the act of learning.

我认为这只是AI的一个非常狭隘的应用场景。

I think it's like a very narrow use case of AI.

就像朱莉提到的，我认为真正有趣的是探讨AI如何能解锁学习的新维度，而不仅仅是更快地往小孩脑子里塞更多事实——那只是这个宇宙中一个阴暗可悲的角落。

And to, like, Julie's point, I think articulating the really interesting use cases of how AI can unlock learning beyond just, like, I can shove more facts into this little kid faster is, like, one one part of that universe is, like, grim and sad.

几周前《连线》杂志有篇关于德州阿尔法学校的精彩报道，很多家长觉得孩子确实学到了知识，却没有学会热爱学习，没有成为终身学习者或掌握自学能力。

And there's a great wired article from a couple of weeks ago on alpha schools in Texas and how many parents felt like truly, like, their kids were learning facts but not learning to love learning, not learning how to be lifelong learners and how to teach themselves.

所以这感觉像是制造了一种对技术的奇怪依赖。

And so it feels like it creates a very strange dependency on the technology.

然后看看完全不同的另一个维度：人们是如何使用现成的OpenAI大模型或自建系统来制作闪卡或游戏化学习的。

Then take this entirely different universe of, like, how are people using whether it's a off the shelf, like, OpenAI LLM or something they build themselves to create flashcards or gamify learning.

或是当师生语言不通时——比如教师使用第二语言教学时——如何用技术弥合这种隔阂。

Or if they have a educator who doesn't speak the same language as them or it's their second language, how you can bridge those divides.

其实存在一整个宇宙的深度亲社会方式，可以用这项技术来促进学习。

There's an entire universe of deeply prosocial ways to use this technology to enable learning.

然后还有种愚蠢版本，大概就是：来，吃下这些知识点。

And then there's a sort of, like, stupid version, which is, like, eat some facts.

祝你今天愉快。

Have a nice day.

但如果我们尝试反驳或站在阿尔法学校的立场来看呢？

But what about to sort sort of push back or take the al Alpha School side of the argument?

我之前和可汗学院的创始人萨尔·可汗有过一次对话。

I had a a conversation with Saul Khan, founder of Khan Academy.

他的观点是，纵观学习的历史，一对一辅导已被证明是极其有效的。

He's he's of the view that if you look at the history of of learning, that one on one tutoring has been shown to be incredibly effective.

传统课堂面临的问题是，有些孩子学得快，有些孩子学得慢，而教学只能针对中等水平。

And the problem we have in this typical classroom is there's some kids who are ahead and others who are behind and you're teaching to the middle.

确实存在一种引人入胜的设想——在不久的将来，所有学生都将拥有自己的AI导师。

There certainly is something compelling, would think, about the idea that we will all that all students at some point in the coming years will have their own AI tutor.

或许我们都会拥有专属AI导师，它清楚掌握我们的知识盲区，懂得如何填补空白，了解我们的兴趣所在，擅长用比喻激发学习热情，并能向教师（在阿尔法学校他们称为‘引导员’）反馈我们的学习进度和需要帮助的领域。

Maybe we will all have our own AI tutor that knows exactly what we know and what we don't know, knows how to fill in the gaps, knows what our interests are and how to use metaphors and engage us in a way that's compelling, and can report back to the teacher or at the Alpha Schools, they call them guides, where we are, where we need help.

难道你不认为这就是我们未来的方向吗？

Do you not see this as as where we're headed?

我确实这么认为，但我认为人的因素是我们不能排除的。

I do, but I think the human component is not one that we can exclude.

比如，我很幸运在美国有过一次法学院的学习经历。

Like, I was fortunate to have, like, one law school experience in The United States.

那是比较传统的课堂模式，而我的第二个法律学位采用的是导师制。

It was, like, sort of a normal classroom, and then my second law degree was a tutorial model.

所以我非常理解有导师在场与个人学习方式之间的差异。

And so I deeply understand the difference between being taught something that where you have a person who's invested in learning and you learning in a particular way.

AI的潜力在于它能了解你的知识储备，从不同角度测试你，比如问你是否考虑过这种或那种思路，这很有用。

The the potential for AI to understand what you know, to test you from different angles, to say, well, have you thought about it this way or this way or this way is useful.

但我认为我的批评在于，单独依靠这一点是不够的。

But I think my critique is in isolation, that's not sufficient.

对吧？

Right?

所以对阿尔法学校的部分批评在于，他们的导师往往没有接受过深入的教学法培训。

So and part of the critique of alpha schools is that the guides are often not deeply pedagogically trained.

这些人并不擅长指出‘这里存在知识缺口’，或是询问‘你是否以有意义的方式将这两个不同概念联系起来？’

These are not people who are, like, skilled with saying, there's a gap here, or you're are you connecting these two different concepts in a way that's meaningful?

你能否看出这其中跨学科的本质？

Are you seeing the interdisciplinary nature of this?

这些互动中并未发生这样的深度引导。

That's not what's happening in those interactions.

我认为若只强调‘尽可能多记忆事实’，我们将错失某些至关重要的东西。

I think we leave something very critical on the table by just saying, like, memorize as many facts as possible.

Matt，我很好奇你对此的看法。

Matt, I'm curious about your take on this.

你是否预见到AI代理会与每位学生建立直接联系，并可能与教师和/或教师的AI进行对话？

Do you foresee AI agents that would have a direct relationship with each student and perhaps be talking with either teachers and or the teachers AIs?

我确实认为这前景非常令人振奋。

I do think that seems really exciting.

当我思考阿尔法学校面临的挑战或机遇时，脑海中立刻浮现的是：天啊，真该有人研究下这种方式是否有效。

When I think about the challenge of alpha schools or maybe the opportunity of them, the thing that jumps to mind is, man, somebody should think about a way of studying whether that works or not.

他们或许应该设计一些实验，开展研究，并查阅现有文献资料。

And they should maybe design some experiments and do some research and try to look at the prior literature.

这听起来像是我们会做的事，但我一时想不起具体叫什么。

And then it sounds like a thing we do, but I can't think of the word of it.

也许是大学在做这类事，我也不确定。

Maybe it's universities, I don't know.

但在我看来，这项技术尚处早期阶段，却已展现出巨大潜力。

But to my mind, I think that this is the early days of what I think a technology that has a lot of promise offers.

回顾互联网早期发展阶段，我们在知识传播方式上也有过类似的思考历程。

And if you look at the early days of the Internet, similar things in in thinking about the way we communicate knowledge with each other.

最让我振奋的是，教育领域长期受制于人力资源限制——能教授的学生数量有限，教学深度也受限——而现在显然存在巨大机遇来解决这些根本性约束。

I think one of the things that I'm excited about is that there's clearly immense opportunity and an ability to address some of the resource constraints that education has traditionally had because it's so driven by human labor that really you are constrained in the number of kids you can teach, the degree to which you can do that.

因此我十分期待，如果我们能找准工具使用方法，明确目标定位和部署策略，定制化学习智能体将为我们带来突破传统课堂模式的巨大发展空间。

And so I think I'm excited by the idea that if we figure out the right way of using these tools and we think about understanding what our goals are and how we wanna deploy this, that there are huge opportunities for customized learning agents to really accelerate and enhance what we do in traditional classroom learning.

甚至可能催生我们尚未触及的全新教育范式。

And maybe even think about new models that we haven't really dealt with yet.

但从教育科技的视角来看，我们不断被告知一切即将改变，传统模式将被彻底颠覆，然而这些预言都未曾实现。

But I will say from the EdTech lens, over and over again we get told that everything is gonna change, and the traditional model of how we do this is all gonna go out the window, and none of those things have come to pass.

我认为从MOOCs中涌现的许多技术确实非常实用且高效，但它们并未从根本上改变我的课堂教学方式——这并非因为我不愿使用这些工具。

I think a lot of the technologies we saw from MOOCs have been really useful and actually been really very effective and helpful, but it hasn't radically changed the way that I practice in my classroom, and so and that's not because I I don't wanna use those tools.

我认为目前仍存在一些技术缺口。

I think they're just there still are gaps.

因此我对这项技术感到兴奋，但更令我期待的是我们能找到最佳应用场景和最优部署方式。

And so I think I'm excited by this technology, but I think I'm more excited by us understanding where the best way and how the best deployment of it might be.

你知道自己想要创业。

You know you want to start a business.

你可能不知道的是如何将其变为现实。

What you may not know is how to make it a reality.

GoDaddy Arrows来帮你。

GoDaddy Arrows got you.

它运用AI技术帮你找到最适合的域名。

It uses AI to help you find the domain name that's right for you.

接下来，回答几个提示，只需点击几下，Arrow就能在几分钟内设计出专业外观的网站或店铺。

Next, answer a few prompts and with a couple clicks, Arrow will design a professional looking website or storefront in minutes.

Arrow甚至能帮助您与客户保持互动。

Arrow can even help you stay engaged with your customers.

只需附加一个与您域名匹配的专业邮箱。

Just attach a professional email that matches your domain.

使用GoDaddy Arrow，您无需了解这些技术细节就能建立业务。

With GoDaddy Arrow, you can build a business without having to know a thing about this stuff.

只需访问godaddy.com即可开始。

Just visit godaddy.com to get started.

网址是godaddy.com。

That's godaddy.com.

高级功能需要付费订阅。

Premium features require paid subscriptions.

具体条款请参见网站。

See terms on-site.

你是否曾给心爱的人打电话，听到语音信箱时心想：太好了。

Have you ever called a loved one, gotten their voice mail, and thought, yes.

这样安排简直完美。

That worked out perfectly.

你因为一个真正体贴的举动而获得认可。

You're getting credit for a genuine act of thoughtfulness.

你想着要联系他们，而整个过程只花了你仅有的三十秒。

You were thinking of them trying to connect, and yet the whole thing only took thirty seconds, which was all you had.

这就是我这个季节的感受——给我两位兄弟姐妹、父母和几位朋友都送了Aura相框。

Well, that's the feeling I'm getting this season, giving aura frames to both of my siblings, my parents, and a few friends.

怎么可能一份礼物能完美适合所有我爱的不同人群呢？

How can one gift be perfect for all these different people I love?

因为你可以让每个Aura相框在送达后个性化定制。

Because you can personalize each AuraFrame after it chips.

你可以随时随地用手机直接传送照片。

You can deliver photos from anywhere, anytime, right from your phone.

幽默与个性化定制的可能性无穷无尽。

The opportunities for humor and personalization are endless.

限时优惠：访问auraframes.com，使用促销代码idea（I-D-E-A）结账，即可享受Aura最畅销的Carver Matte相框35美元折扣，该产品被Wirecutter评为第一名。

For a limited time, save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get $35 off Aura's best selling Carver Matte frames named number one by Wirecutter by using promo code idea, I d e a, at checkout.

网址是auraframes.com，促销代码是idea。

That's auraframes.com, promo code idea.

此优惠仅限听众专享，且相框库存有限，售完即止。

This deal is exclusive to listeners, and frames sell out fast.

立即下单，确保节日期间能及时收货。

So order yours now to get it in time for the holidays.

结账时提及我们以支持节目。

Support the show by mentioning us at checkout.

条款与条件适用。

Terms and conditions apply.

当我们讨论教育领域的人工智能时，最常被提及的话题就是作弊问题。

When we talk about AI in education, the topic that that tends to come up is cheating.

尼克，我了解到那种孩子们——应该说学生们用来写作文的蓝色小本子正在重新流行起来。

And Nick, I gather that little blue books into which children, or students, I should say, write essays is coming back into fashion.

你对这个有什么经验吗？

Do you have some experience with this?

嗯，我有间接经验。

Well, I have indirect experience.

如今我不教本科生了，虽然还在带研究生，但我妻子是伯克利的教授，她最近重新启用了蓝本考试——而且我认为她不是唯一这么做的人。

These days I'm not teaching undergraduates, I still work with graduate students, but I do have a wife who is a professor at Berkeley, and she has revived, and I don't think she's the only one who has done so, the Blue Book.

有些人可能还记得，就是那种用白线装订的蓝色考试本，以前课堂上考试用的那种。

And some of you may remember, those are the kind of stitched Blue Books with white ruled paper that you used to get for an exam in class.

突然之间，许多教授开始要求：'来课堂上就以下题目写篇作文，这样我们就知道不是ChatGPT生成的'，学生必须当场组织论点、推进段落，当然还要展示他们不仅读过作业而且认真思考过。

And all of a sudden, many professors are beginning to say, Come into class and write an essay on the following subject so that we know it's not going to be produced by ChatGPT, and the student has to, right on the spot, figure out how to make an argument, how to progress paragraphs, and of course show that they've not only read but thought about the homework.

抄袭问题其实是个长期存在的顽疾。

Now, the question of plagiarism has been a perdurant one.

我们有能检测抄袭的程序。

We have programs that can detect it.

每一篇由ChatGPT生成的论文都是全新的，有人说他们有程序能处理这些问题，但我们尚未真正看到成效。

Every paper that is written by ChatGPT is new and some people say they have programs that can deal with these things and we yet haven't really seen that work.

我认为这里的挑战以及更广泛的问题在于：AI将如何开始改变学生的学习体验？我们是否会发现自己教授学生独立撰写论文的能力正在丧失——也就是说，教会他们思考问题并真正构建论点，或者更进一步，教会他们在没有ChatGPT代劳摘要或写作的情况下，自主阅读那些他们需要撰写论文的书籍，而不是让AI介入原本需要长期接触文本的传统教育过程。

I think the challenge here and the larger question that goes to the question of what and how AI is going to start changing the student experience is, are we going to find that our capacity to teach students how to write essays on their own, that is to say, think through a problem and really develop an argument, or for that matter, to read the books on which and about which they would write these essays without having CHAT GPT do the summaries or do the work for them or somehow or another intermediate the process of long exposure to texts that education used to consist of.

如果你还记得1970年代，1972至1976年间计算器刚普及时，人们花了四年时间才淘汰计算尺。

And if you recall in the 1970s, between 1972 and 1976, when the calculator was introduced, it took four years to get rid of the slide rule.

当时人们非常担忧：这是否会导致数学教学能力的终结？

People at that time were deeply worried, was this going to lead to the end of being able to teach mathematics?

嗯，没有。

Well, didn't.

它并没有改变某些表格的记忆方式。

It didn't change the way in which certain kinds of tables were memorized.

但关键在于，我们仍处于早期阶段。

But the point is, of course, that we are in early days.

我们尚不清楚会产生什么影响，因此不仅要测试这些新模型，还需思考教育的本质是什么，以及如何保护这些核心要素。

We don't know yet what the effects are going to be, and we have to try to not only test these new models, but figure out what is fundamental to education and how to preserve those kinds of things.

不过在我看来，由于计算器的出现，我们对数学技能的定义已经发生了变化。

It seems to me, though, that what what we've considered to be math skills has changed because of the calculator.

以前如果有人能在心算方面表现出色，我们会非常钦佩。

Like, used to be that we were very impressed when people were able to, you know, conduct large, you know, calculations in their heads.

现在我们不再为此感到惊叹，因为它已经不再实用。

We're no longer impressed by that because it's not useful.

我在想，我们是否会发现写作作为反映他人真实想法的这一观念本身正在改变。

And I wonder if we won't find that the whole idea that a piece of writing is an authentic indication of how someone else thinks.

我要提出一个可能有些反传统的观点：我认为这种观念正在过时。

It strikes me I'm gonna make what might be a contrarian argument that I think that's obsolescent.

我认为我们现在正处于一个临界点——如果你想真正了解一个人的思维，你需要与他们交谈。

I think we're I think we're reaching a point right now where if you really wanna know what's how somebody thinks, you need to talk to them.

可以说，我们正处于所有写作都可能被AI干预或已经被AI干预的时代。

We're arguably at a point at which all writing is mediated by AI or might be mediated by AI.

所以也许教育工作者应该重新重视口语表达能力的培养。

And so maybe what teachers should be doing in schools is return to focus on oratory.

可以说，我们正在转向一种更偏向口述的文化。

We're moving towards a more oral culture arguably.

这会让苏格拉底感到欣慰，因为苏格拉底当然非常担忧文字出现后会导致学生不再具备记忆和掌握事实的能力。

And this would please Socrates because Socrates, of course, was very concerned that when writing emerged, it was gonna cause students to no longer have memories and and and have have command of facts.

那么这里是否有一种观点认为，我们正在转向更口述化的文化，而衡量学生成功的标准应该更多地基于他们进行即时对话的能力——就像我们现在正在做的这样？

So is there an argument here that we're moving towards a more oral culture and that our criteria for success for students should be more based on their ability to do what we're doing right now, which is to talk to each other?

我认为这触及了教育界一个重大辩论，这个辩论存在于K12阶段和高等教育阶段：我们究竟是为了知识本身的价值而教育，还是为了就业而教育？

I think this gets to a great debate in education that exists at the K 12 level and at the post secondary, which is the tension between are we educating for education in some intellectual sake versus are we educating for jobs?

这个问题并没有唯一的标准答案。

And there is no one single answer.

而且可能对每个学生来说也不存在单一的答案。

And there's no one single answer for any single student, probably.

但作为长期参与纽约市政界事务的人，我经常深入思考这场辩论。

But it is a debate I live I spend a lot of time working in in kind of the political and civic landscape of New York City.

这确实是我们面临的一场激烈辩论，毕竟纽约公立学校体系堪称全球规模最大的教育系统。

And this is a raging debate that we have because, you know, we have the biggest school system in the world, I believe, New York City Public Schools.

你如何衡量成功？

How do you gauge success?

是看毕业的孩子是否找到工作吗？

Is it that kids who graduate have jobs?

如果是的话，需要哪些技能？

And if so, what are the skills?

是演讲能力吗？

Are they oratory?

具体需要哪些技能？

What are the skills?

要知道，十年前我们都在讨论计算机科学教育。

You know, ten years ago, we all talked about computer science education.

现在我们讨论的是计算思维。

Now we talk about computational thinking.

这种认知一直在不断演变。

And it keeps kind of evolving.

我不知道该如何权衡这两件事。

And I don't know how you weigh those two things.

我希望我的孩子们能因为热爱学习而去上学，但我不确定。

I hope my children are able to go to school because they love learning, but I don't know.

这些问题的答案确实很复杂。

Those answers are really complicated.

让我们来谈谈人工智能如何赋能教师。

Let's talk about how AI can empower teachers.

在座的就有教师。

We have teachers among us here.

人工智能如何改变我们的教学方式、评估学生的方式、课程设计方式以及课堂互动方式。

How is AI changing how we teach, how we assess students, how we design classes, how we engage classrooms.

让我们展开讨论。

Let's open this up.

马特，你怎么看？

What do you think, Matt?

是的。

Yeah.

我来插一句，我认为计算机科学教育确实能预示其他领域可能发生的变化，这点非常有趣。

I'll jump in and say, you know, one of the things that's so interesting is that I think computer science education is a real bellwether for what may happen in other fields.

因此我们必须彻底重新思考计算机科学的教学方式。

So we have to radically reconsider the way we teach computer science.

我们通常教人们编程，但越来越明显的是，这些编码模型不仅能生成简单程序，实际上还能涵盖我们本科课程甚至研究生课程的全部教学内容。

We usually teach people to program, and it's becoming rapidly apparent that these coding models are sufficient to generate not only simple programs, but really all of what we would teach in an undergraduate curriculum, probably a graduate curriculum as well.

我觉得有趣的是，这并不让我感到害怕，而是真正促使我们重新思考编程教学的方式及其意义。

And I think what's interesting about that is not that that scares me, but it really requires us to rethink how we're gonna go about teaching someone how to program and what that even means.

如果最终目标是教会人们创建能实现我们关注的有趣功能的计算机程序，那么传统上教授他们编写玩具小程序的做法可能已不再合理。

And so if the ultimate goal is to teach someone to be able to create computer programs that can do interesting things that we care about, teaching them to do really toy programs, which is what we would traditionally do, probably doesn't make sense.

从教育角度让我兴奋的是，现在可以让学生在课程中创建近乎企业级规模的项目，而以前只能让他们做个井字棋游戏。

So what excites me from an educational standpoint is I can now ask people to create things of almost sort of enterprise scale in the course of a class, where before I had to get them to create a Tic Tac Toe program.

因此我认为，这最终能让我们更接近计算机科学的梦想——让人们真正创造出他们感兴趣或热衷的事物。

And so I think what that enables is ultimately us to get much closer to what the dream of computer science was, which is to allow people to really generate things that they're excited about or passionate about or whatever.