本集简介
双语字幕
仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
我们生活在两个不同的现实中，我完全不明白他们怎么会变成这样，这根本不合理。
We live in two different realities, and I don't fully understand how they got to where they're at, but it's not rational.
他们根本不想讲道理。
They don't wanna be rational.
我感觉我们正在接近一个理性时代的终结。
I feel like we're I feel like we're approaching the end of of, like, a rational era.
我感觉我们正在经历一场反对启蒙运动的剧烈摇摆。
I feel like we're having a a hard swing against enlightenment.
就像我们正在进入这个奇怪的浪漫主义时期，有些人特别是右翼人士正在全面纳粹化
Like, we're entering this weird romantic period where people are peep some people on the right are just going full Nazi
是的。
Yes.
这可不是什么好事。
Which is not good.
没错。
Yes.
而左翼人士则完全走向共产主义
And, the people on the left are just going full communist
是的。
Yes.
不过是带着身份政治的色彩。
But with with identity politics.
你知道，性别身份政治可能已经失败了。
And, you know, so the gender gender identity politics, maybe that's failed.
所以现在要转向阶级斗争，因为这是经过验证的压迫者与被压迫者的经典对立模式。
So now it's gonna be class warfare because that's where you know, that's the tried and and true oppressor oppressed dynamic.
本期节目由我们的主要赞助商——传奇矿业巨头Iron赞助，这家纳斯达克上市的比特币矿企100%使用可再生能源。
This episode is brought to you by our lead sponsor, a massive legends, Iron, the largest Nasdaq listed Bitcoin miner using 100% renewable energy.
他们不仅为比特币网络提供算力。
Now they're not just powering the Bitcoin network.
还利用可再生能源为人工智能提供尖端计算资源。
They're also providing cutting edge computer resources for AI, all backed by renewable energy.
我和我的搭档丹尼与他们的创始人丹和威尔共事已久，我们一直对他们的价值观印象深刻，特别是他们对当地社区和可持续计算能力的承诺。
Now my boy Danny and I have been working with their founders, Dan and Will, for quite some time now, and we've always been super impressed with their values, especially their commitment to local communities and sustainable computing power.
所以如果你对比特币挖矿或利用AI计算能力感兴趣，Iron正在树立行业标准。
So if you're interested in mining Bitcoin or harnessing AI compute power, Iron is setting the standard.
你可以在iron.com（即iren.com）了解更多信息。
And so you can find out more at iron.com, which is iren.com.
就是iron.com。
That is iron.com.
康纳在那边笑呢。
We got Connor laughing over there.
这是什么？
What's this?
哦，一条安吉拉的推文。
Oh, an Angela tweet.
我在伦敦的出租车司机向我炫耀他们缴了多少税。
My cab driver in London bragged to me about how much they pay in taxes.
那是
It was
太残忍了。
brutal.
什么？
What?
他还为此炫耀？
He bragged about it?
哦，我们这边交很多税。
Oh, we pay a lot in taxes over here.
我们确保一切都有保障。
We make sure everything's covered.
哦，我们全包了。
Oh, we pay it all.
安吉拉，我们国家现在有太多问题了。
We we have so many problems in our country at the moment, Angela.
看到这座博物馆了吗？
See this museum?
我们确保支付了所有费用。
It's all we made sure we paid for that.
然后还提到了彩票的事。
And then it was something about a lottery.
彩票拨款。
Lottery grant.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
那是一项新税种。
That's a new that was a that was a new tax.
是的。
Yeah.
我们推出彩票是为了让人们有成为千万富翁的希望，然后用这笔钱资助政府过去资助的项目。
We we introduced the lottery to give people the hope of becoming a multimillionaire and then funded things with it the government used to fund.
但你知道吗？
But you know what?
实际上他们资助了一些好事，很多体育项目。
They actually fund some good things, a lot of sports stuff.
但我们目前有个问题，我们的政府破产了，而左翼政党唯一的解决方案就是对富人征税，他们都在...他们打算...
But we we have a problem at the moment and our our our government is broke, and the left wing parties only answer is tax the rich, they're all They're going.
是啊。
Yeah.
我们没有离境税。
We don't have an exit tax.
是啊。
Yeah.
我们已经流失了超过1万名百万富翁。
We've lost over 10,000 millionaires.
我们之前发现了吗，康纳？
Did we find out earlier, Connor?
16,000。
16,000.
16,000。
16,000.
已经有几位亿万富翁离开了。
A couple of billionaires have gone.
你们正在变成一个第三世界国家。
You're becoming a third world country.
我们确实是...人们听到你这么说会很难过。
We are it really upsets people when you say that.
我知道。
I know.
是啊。
Yeah.
这就像是一个平行世界的英国，人们仿佛生活在另一个平行宇宙里。
It's like a parallel The UK, there's like this parallel universe that people are living in.
像我这样的人就会想：我们到底在这里做什么？
There's people like me who are like, what the what are we what are we doing here?
我们简直疯了。
We're insane.
所有东西都贵得离谱。
Everything's really expensive.
大家都没钱，企业到处都在倒闭。
No one's got any money, and businesses are closing down everywhere.
而另一群人却觉得：哦，一切都很好啊。
And then there's a group of other people like, oh, everything's fine.
我们只需要对富人征更多税就行了。
We just need to tax the rich more.
我们要离开了。
We're leaving.
我完全搞不清楚长期计划是什么。
I'm I'm just very confused on what the long term plan is.
这就是阿根廷。
This is Argentina.
是的。
Yes.
我想是吧。
I guess so.
七十年后，我们会迎来一位像马来那样的自由主义者掌权，试图让国家恢复往日的荣光。
In seventy years, we're gonna get a libertarian like Malay, who's gonna come into power and try and restore our country to what it once was.
现在我们正朝着糟糕的方向发展。
Now we were we are on this terrible trajectory.
我们唯一的希望是在三四年后的大选中，能有一位稍微倾向自由主义、或许读过些哈耶克著作的人上台，他会意识到：我们不能继续滥发货币，因为这样会让所有人陷入贫困。
The the one hope we have is we will have an election in three to four years, and hopefully, someone slightly libertarian minded, maybe he's read a bit of Hayek, will come into power and go, we can't keep, you know, we can't keep expanding the money because if we keep expanding the money, we're gonna make everyone poor.
希望我们真能等到那一天。
Hopefully, we're we're gonna get that.
那么这里的移民政策是怎么运作的？
So how does that work here with with immigration?
有大量移民涌入，而且是的。
There's been a an in a huge influx of immigrants, and there's Yes.
我们在美国也经历过同样的情况。
We've experienced the same thing in The United States.
他们能在即将到来的选举中投票吗？
Do they get to vote in that upcoming election?
不会立即获得投票权。
Not immediately.
好的。
Okay.
所以你们还有但我
So you still have But I
不知道未来走向如何。
don't know the trajectory.
康纳，你需要多久才能弄清楚这件事？
How long can you find that out, Connor?
美国公民身份只需要办理一次就行了吗？
Just once The US citizenship work?
是的。
Yeah.
但我不清楚具体的申请流程是怎样的。
But I don't know what the path is for that.
你基本上是在说左翼人士在引进选民。
You're talking about basically left wing people importing voters.
哦，对。
Oh, yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
所以我不知道答案是什么。
So I don't know the answer.
康纳可以查查这个。
Connor can look that up.
但非常明显的是，我们正在妖魔化并吓跑富人，同时引进——我不想说得难听——但基本上就是那些将来会当外卖骑手的人。
But what is very clear is we we are demonizing and scaring off the rich people and then inviting in you know, I don't I wanna I don't wanna sound like a dick when I say this, but, like, people who are gonna be delivery drivers.
是的。
Yes.
我们GDP在增长，但人均GDP却没有提升。
And we're growing GDP, but our GDP per capita is not growing.
甚至可能还在下降，所以你觉得接下来会发生什么？
If anything is falling and it's so what do you what do you think is gonna happen?
你们引进的可不是百万富翁和亿万富翁。
You're not inviting in millionaires and billionaires.
没错。
No.
我们正在把他们吓跑。
We're scaring them off.
我们没有引进足够的工程师和医生。
We're not we're not bringing in enough engineers and doctors.
我们还为创业者营造了一个非常不友好的环境。
We've also made it a very hostile environment for entrepreneurs.
一个对创业者非常敌对的环境。
Like a very hostile environment for entrepreneurs.
但我们却生活在这个相当有趣的平行现实中。
And but we we live in this parallel reality where we have which is quite interesting, really.
想象一下，在你们刚结束的特朗普与卡马拉的选举之后，到下次选举时，投票将在两个既非民主党也非共和党的新政党之间进行。
Imagine between your current election with that you've just had with Trump versus Kamala, and then by the next election, you the the vote was between two new parties that wasn't the Democrats or the Republicans.
这本质上就是...你看。
Like, this is essentially things that and look.
我知道你们实际上是个两党制国家。
And I know you're a two party country, really.
你们是两党政治，而我们则有多党制。
You're two party politics, whereas we have, you know, multiple parties.
但到下次大选时，我预测两个最大党派很可能会是改革党——这本质上是我们新版共和党。
But by the next election, my prediction is that the two biggest parties could be will be certainly reform, which is essentially our our new version of the Republicans.
对。
Right.
而另一个可能是绿党，也可能是自由民主党——这两个都是规模较小的左翼政党。
And essentially, probably green, but maybe Lib Dems, which are too small left wing parties.
保守党和工党将不会执政，甚至不太可能成为影子政府。
We will not the conservatives and labor party will will not be in government or likely shadow government out of nowhere.
目前，有500万人因证件问题无法投票。
Currently, 5,000,000 people can't vote due to their papers.
不能。
Can't.
那获得投票权的途径是什么？
But what's the path to be able to vote?
就是获得公民身份。
It's get citizenship.
这需要多长时间？
How long does that take?
这个时间范围会有所不同。
That that will range.
对吧？
Right?
我不知道。
I don't know.
我确信Grock能告诉我们。
I'm sure Grock can tell us.
这里的绿党有多疯狂？
How crazy are the greens here?
听着。
Look.
我当时在听Charlie Kirk讲话，我想他正在接受Gavin Newsom的采访，但他们其实是在进行对话。
I was listening to Charlie Kirk being I think he was being interviewed by Gavin Newsom, but they were they were in a conversation.
我们昨天在YouTube上听了这个。
We listened to it on YouTube yesterday.
你知道我觉得最精彩的是什么吗？就是查理·柯克主动出击。
And do you know what I thought was brilliant about it is Charlie Kirk went in.
他谈到了要与对方保持同频共振。
You know, he talked about getting on the same frequency as the other person.
他主动去帮助加文·纽森，给他出谋划策。
And he went in to help Gavin Newsom and to give him ideas.
他对纽森说：我们来谈谈跨性别问题吧，因为在这个议题上你正被碾压。
And he said to him, let's let's talk about the trans issue because this is you're you're getting crushed on this.
这就像是八二开的局面。
This is like an eighty twenty.
是啊。
Yeah.
就连你自己的选民都说：我们不该让男性参加女子运动比赛。
Even your own voters are like, we we shouldn't be having main competing in women's sports.
太过分了。
It's too much.
确实太过分了。
It's too much.
他说，你为什么不现在就站出来承认你在这个问题上很被动。
He said, why don't you just come out now and say, you you're getting crushed on this.
你为什么不这么说呢？
Why why don't you say that?
而绿党的问题是，如果你问扎克·波兰斯基，女人可以有阴茎吗？
And the thing about the Green Party is if you ask Zac Polansky, can a woman have a penis?
他会回答，可以。
He will say, yes.
他们确实可以。
They can.
当然了。
Of course.
是的。
Yeah.
所以对我来说这就像是，我能认真对待你吗？
And and and so that's that's to me is just like, can I take you seriously?
我有两个问题。
I've got I've got two questions.
女人可以有阴茎吗？以及你会运行一个实施通货膨胀政策的政府吗？
Can a woman have a penis, And will you run a government that runs inflationary policies?
如果你对这两个问题都回答'是'，那你就不该被认真对待。
Like, if you answer yes to both of those, you you shouldn't be taken seriously.
在你进来之前，我们录制了有史以来第一次独白。
And we before you came in, we've recorded our first ever monologue.
我对着镜头讲了52分钟，像戴夫·史密斯那样滔滔不绝，基本上就是说我们都疯了。
I spoke at the camera for fifty two minutes ranting away like Dave Smith, basically saying, we're all nuts.
不。
No.
不。
No.
作为一个选民群体，我们实际上并不清楚自己在为什么投票。
As as a an electorate, we don't actually know what we're voting for.
因为如果你投票支持——如果你是左派并声称要帮助社会中的穷人和最弱势群体，却又支持货币扩张政策，那你就是在让富人更富、穷人更穷。
Because if you vote if if you are a lefty and you're saying, you know, I wanna help the poor and the most vulnerable in society and you support monetary expansion, you are making the rich richer and making the poor poorer.
你作为奥地利学派应该明白这点。
You you know that as an Austrian.
哦，是啊。
Oh, yeah.
哦，确实。
Oh, yeah.
所以我与每个左翼选民对话的起点都是：你真的关心穷人吗？
So that's my starting point with every left wing voter is like, do you care about the poor?
是的。
Yes.
你明白吗？如果你投票支持货币扩张，你会让我更富有，而穷人会更穷。
Do you understand that if you vote for monetary expansion, you're gonna make me richer and the poor poorer?
他们最终会拒绝。
They And come out with a no.
不。
No.
不。
No.
那种情况不会发生。
That that doesn't happen.
这就是基本现实。
I'd that just that's the base reality.
所以你看，绿党表现非常出色。
And so look, the the greens are doing very well.
扎克·波兰斯基非常擅长说些冠冕堂皇的话，让道德高尚的人觉得他很了不起。
Zach Polansky is doing a very good job of saying virtuous things that virtuous people go, oh, well, he's amazing.
我们不得不投票给他，但他所说的内容根本没有经济现实基础。
We have to vote for him, but there's no grounded economic reality to what he's talking about.
我们生活在两个不同的现实里，我完全不明白他们怎么会变成这样，但这并不理性。
We live in two different realities, and I don't fully understand how they got to where they're at, but it's not rational.
他们不想保持理性。
They don't wanna be rational.
我感觉我们正感觉我们正接近一个理性时代的终结。
I feel like we're I feel like we're approaching the end of of, like, a rational era.
我觉得我们正在经历一场对抗启蒙运动的剧烈摇摆。
I feel like we're having a a hard swing against enlightenment.
就像我们正进入这个奇怪的浪漫主义时期，有些人正在彻底走向纳粹主义
Like, we're entering this weird romantic period where people are peep some people on the right are just going full Nazi
是的。
Yes.
这可不是好事。
Which is not good.
是的。
Yes.
而左派人士正在全面倒向共产主义。
And people on the left are just going full communist.
没错。
Yes.
不过是带着身份政治的色彩。
But with with identity politics.
你知道，那种性别身份政治可能已经失败了。
And, you know, so the gender gender identity politics, maybe that's failed.
所以接下来要打阶级战争了，因为这是经过验证的压迫者与被压迫者的经典对立模式。
So now it's gonna be class warfare because that's where you know, that's the tried and and true oppressor oppressed dynamic.
但问题就在这里。
But this is this is the thing.
这就好比，好吧。
It's like, okay.
如果有足够多的人在听我的节目，我们能做些什么真正有效的事？
If enough people are listening to my show, what what can we do that's effective?
是的。
Yeah.
我认为最没效果的做法就是直接支持某个政党。
And I think the least effective thing we can do is outright support a party.
我认为我们必须坚定支持原则。
I think we have to outright support principles.
我同意。
I agree.
没错。
Yes.
我同意。
I agree.
所以这就是我在美国第三党政治中采取的做法。
So this is kinda what I do with third party politics in The United States.
回到正题，因为不是每个英国人都认识你，安吉拉。
Go back because not everyone in The UK is gonna know who you are, Angela.
当然。
Sure.
当然。
Sure.
我是美国自由党前主席，2023年因与唐纳德·特朗普达成协议而登上头条，既收获爱戴也招致憎恨。
So I'm the former chair of the National Libertarian Party, and I I made headlines and became, I don't know, beloved and hated for making a deal with Donald Trump in 2023.
我曾与他会面。
I I met with him.
我非常幸运。
I was very fortunate.
要知道，特朗普首任政府时期的美国国家情报总监兼驻德国大使里克·格林内尔曾联系我说，嘿。
You know, Rick Grinnell, former director of national intelligence and former ambassador to Germany under Trump's first administration, reached out to me and said, hey.
我是特朗普总统的朋友。
I'm a friend of president Trump.
我们很想知道自由主义者对他的看法，这可是件相当不寻常的事。
We'd like to know what libertarians think of him, which is quite a quite a thing.
你知道吗？
You know?
早上七点醒来，就收到前国家情报总监发来的短信。
Wake up at seven in the morning, and you have a a text from the former director of national intelligence.
明白吗？
You know?
我当时就想，哇，这真是个绝佳的机会，因为我能影响走向。
And I thought, well, this is like this is an incredible opportunity because I can move the direction.
我能推动自由的天平。
I can move the needle in the direction of liberty.
所以在我看来，这就是第三党政党的意义所在。
And so that's, you know, that's how I view third party politics.
我在给里克·格林内尔打电话前喝了杯咖啡，谈话时非常讲究外交辞令——这可不是自由主义者常有的作风。
I I had a cup of coffee before I called Rick Grinnell and spoke to him, And I was very diplomatic, which is not something that libertarians generally do.
我告诉他，自由意志主义者对某些事情是赞同的，也有些方面不尽如人意。
And I told him, you know, libertarians, we're there are things we like, and there are things that leave a little bit to be desired.
我们对苏莱曼尼将军的无人机袭击并不热衷，但很感激你没有发动新的战争。
You know, we're not super crazy about the drone strikes on general Soleimani, but we do appreciate you didn't start any new wars.
这确实是相当长时间以来的首次。
That's really, that's a first for for quite a while.
我们对移民和自由党的看法比较复杂，对你遭遇的法律战深表同情，认为这非常恶劣，希望你能战胜它。
And, you know, we have mixed views on immigration and the Libertarian Party, and we're very sympathetic to the lawfare you've experienced, and we think that's really gross, and we hope you defeat it.
我觉得他们尤其喜欢这一点。
And I think that, in particular, they really liked.
好吧。
Okay.
你知道吗？
You know?
他们非常喜欢这个回应，于是我们就开始讨论如何争取自由意志主义者的选票。
They really liked that response, and so that got us into this conversation of, like, how do we get the libertarian vote?
还有释放罗素·伯格。
And release Russell Burg.
嗯，那就是我想出来的。
Well, that was that was what I came up with.
顺便说一句，他的母亲林恩，在我八年前刚开始做播客时，她是我的第十位采访对象。
By the way, his his mother, Lynn, when I started my original podcast eight years ago, she is my tenth interview.
哦，她是个非常可爱的人。
Oh, she's a she's a she's a doll.
她是个英雄。
She's a hero.
她也住得离我很近。太好了。
She she also lives close to me Great.
在德克萨斯州奥斯汀。
In Austin, Texas.
她非常棒。
She's wonderful.
我对那位女士充满敬畏。
I'm absolutely in awe of that woman.
不，观察她真的很有趣。
The not it was really interesting watching her.
显然，她过去多少年都在为此努力？
Obviously, she spent the last how many years?
是八年吗？
Was it eight years?
九年？
Nine years?
应该是十一年左右。
It was it was like eleven years.
十一年来她一直为罗斯的释放奔走呼吁。
Eleven years campaigning for the release of Ross.
她还成为了监狱改革的活动家。是的。
Also, she became an activist for prison reform Yes.
她揭露了监狱警卫工会的游说行为。
And what she's exposed with the lobbying by the prison guards union.
他们是叫监狱警卫工会吗？
Is it are they called it prison guards union?
她向我解释过，这些小镇依赖监狱提供就业机会。
Where she explained to me these small towns rely on the prison to provide jobs.
是的。
Yes.
所以他们不想要监狱改革。
So they don't they don't want prison reform.
他们想让人们因为吸食大麻而入狱。
They they want people in jail for smoking weed.
这太疯狂了。
It's crazy.
而且，通过与监狱里的人交谈并为他们发声，我对监狱里的情况有了更多了解。
And, I mean, I've gotten to know a lot more about the situation in prison, having having spoken and advocated for people in prison.
真正疯狂的是乔·异国情调，就是那个家伙。
A really wild one is is Joe Exotic who was Yeah.
你知道的，就是那个家伙。
You know, like guy.
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
所以我经常和他通话，他所在监狱的条件简直令人毛骨悚然。
So I speak to him a lot, and the conditions in his prison are just it's just horrifying.
黑霉。
Black mold.
呃。
Ugh.
好吧，听着。
Well, look.
我认为自己是个正在学习中的自由主义者，因为英国并没有大规模的自由主义运动。
I consider myself a libertarian in training because we don't have a large libertarian movement in The UK.
规模远不及美国那么庞大。
It's not as it's not as large as you have in The US.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
老实说，在接触比特币之前，我甚至从未听说过自由主义这个概念。
And I'll be honest, I'd never even heard of the idea of libertarianism until I've discovered Bitcoin.
然后很自然地，我开始接触到比特币圈的人。
And then, obviously, I started bumping into Bitcoiners.
有意思。
Interesting.
没错。
Yep.
你知道，那些Rumpel阶层和各种人士，他们基本上就是冲我嚷嚷，叫我别再当个守旧派。
And, you know, the Rumpel class and and various people who were just kind of shouted at me saying, stop being a status.
你知道吗？
You know?
去读读哈耶克的书。
Go read Hayek.
我们非常有魅力，非常善于社交。
We're very charming, very sociable.
你知道吗？
Do you know what?
问题在于，当我做节目时，我生活在一个泡泡里——我会去美国旅行，住在爱彼迎，做几期节目，然后回来。
The problem was when I made the show, I lived in a bubble whereby I would travel out to The US, stay in an Airbnb, make some shows, and come back.
当我停止这样做回到英国，开始更多与我们的政府打交道时，我才意识到：自由主义者说的一切都是对的。
When I stopped doing it and came back to The UK and started interacting with our government more, I was like, Everything the libertarian said is true.
是啊。
Yeah.
每句话都说中了。
Everything is right.
现在我基本上算是戴夫·史密斯的门徒了。
And now I basically I'm a I'm a disciple of Dave Smith.
我觉得他非常出色。
I think he's brilliant.
非常好。
Very nice.
不过我还处于学习阶段。
And I but I'm still in training.
我还在研读各种教材。
I'm still reading through my various textbooks.
我家里有个藏书室。
I've got a I've got a library at home of books.
我买书的速度快得能跟上阅读进度。
I kept I'm buying them quick enough that I can read them.
是路德维希·冯·米塞斯吗？
Lubitbond Mises?
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yep.
巴斯夏的《法律》我已经读了一部分。
Bastiat's the law is one I'm part of way through.
不过我还有个朋友尼克，你认识尼克·卡特吗？
But I'm also like my friend Nick do you know Nick Carter?
可能吧。
Possibly.
是啊。
Yeah.
他跟我说了件关于自由主义的有趣事情。
So he said to me something interesting one about libertarianism.
他说自由主义的问题在于，要实现自由主义的目标，你实际上需要积累权力，而这与自由主义精神是相悖的。
He said the problem with libertarianism is to achieve libertarian goals, you really need to accumulate power, which is antithetical to being a libertarian.
是的。
Yes.
我当时就想，所以实际上，我们需要的是能够积累权力来瓦解政府的自由意志主义政党。
And I was like, So really, what we need is libertarian parties that accumulate power to dismantle government.
这确实很艰难。
It's been a struggle.
好吧。
Okay.
所以这...这确实很艰难。
So it's so it's so it's been a struggle.
对吧？
Right?
这就是我卡住的地方。
This is this is where I'm stuck.
所以我首先要做的就是接管自由意志党，这引起了很大争议。
So so the first thing I had to do was take over the libertarian party, which was quite controversial.
而且，在我通过米塞斯核心小组崛起之前，这个政党在九十年代和二月就已经被左翼分子渗透了。
And, you know, prior to my rise, you know, through the Mises caucus, the party had been infiltrated by leftists in the nineties and February.
乔治·索罗斯的资金，你知道的，所有这些事情。
George Soros' money, you know, all of that stuff.
前全国主席还是一个组织的负责人，这个组织非常关注民主而非自由，这就是他们如何慢慢滑向完全不同的框架的。
Former national chair was also the chair of an organization that was very focused on democracy as opposed to liberty, and that's how they sort of slowly slid, you know, into a totally different framing.
所以当我接手时，你知道，我们就被抹黑了。
So when I took it over, you know, we get smeared.
极右翼、纳粹、种族主义者、厌恶女性者。
Alt right, Nazi, racist, misogynist.
显然，我讨厌女性。
Apparently, I hate women.
有点疯狂。
Just kinda crazy.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yep.
而且，你知道，我当时就想，好吧，我们就推进自由事业。
And, you know, I was like, well, we're just gonna advance liberty.
在那之前的一切都像是个奇怪的模拟联合国俱乐部，你知道，非常注重罗伯特议事规则和议会程序，就只是在选票上放个候选人。
Everything prior to that was sort of like this weird model UN club, you know, very focused on Robert's rules of order and parliamentary procedure and just having a candidate on the ballot.
然后我说，为什么我们不实际做点什么呢？
And I said, well, why don't we actually do something?
非常有争议。
Very controversial.
于是我开始组建议题联盟。
So I started doing issue coalitions.
你知道，我举办了一个叫'向战争机器怒吼'的活动，那是个大型反战活动，可能是第一个针对美国介入乌克兰战争的大型抗议。
You know, I did an an event called Rage Against the War Machine, which was a a big anti war, maybe the first big anti war protest against The United States involvement in the war in Ukraine.
没错。
Correct.
我们邀请了图尔西·加巴德、罗恩·保罗。
We pulled Tulsi Gabbard, Ron Paul.
我们实际上和一群左派人士合作过。
We actually worked with a bunch of leftists.
你知道吗？
You know?
有趣的是，我们其中一位演讲者现在成了国家情报总监。
And it's interesting because we had we you know, one of our speakers is, like, now the director of national intelligence.
你知道吗？
You know?
我们开始有点名气了。
We started to kinda get on the map.
不过最重要的是与特朗普总统的竞选团队以及小罗伯特·肯尼迪合作。
The big one though was working with president Trump's campaign and also Robert f Kennedy junior.
好的。
Okay.
我真的是硬拖着整个党派，连踢带踹地走向成功。
And I really had to drag the party kicking and screaming towards success.
要让自由意志主义者行动起来实在太难了。
They just it's so challenging to get the libertarians to do the thing.
你懂吗？
You know?
我们某种程度上都飘在理论层面。
Like, we're all sort of floating around in theory.
我们都有极高的经济学素养，但问题是如何从A点到达B点？
We we're all incredibly economically literate, but it's like, how do we get from point a to point b?
人们简直要疯了。
People just lose their minds.
这事办不成。
It can't be done.
绝对办不成。
Can't be done.
这就好比，你愿意妥协与讨厌的事物共事，以减少其负面影响吗？
Well, it's like it's like, do you wanna make that compromise of working with the thing you hate to make it do less of what you hate?
我想这就是关键所在。
And I think that's that's it.
我试图对此保持务实。
Like, I try and be practical about this.
所以之前我们做那段独白时，我说过我是个保守的自由意志主义者。
So when we made that did that monologue before, I said I'm a conservative libertarian.
我早期对自由意志主义的理解是，我希望在方向上保持正确。
And when I say about my early understanding of libertarianism is that I want directionally to be correct.
是的。
Yes.
你一定认识埃里克·沃里斯吧。
So Eric Voorhees, you must know Eric Voorhees.
对。
Yes.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
我很早就采访过他，他当时对我说：你想要的自由主义终极目标是什么？
So I interviewed him very early on, and he said to me I was like, what is this libertarian end goal you want?
他说，不要终极目标。
He said, don't want the end goal.
他说，只要让政府明年规模缩小5%就好。
He said, just give me government next year to be 5% smaller.
哪怕1%的缩小也行。
Even 1% smaller.
对。
Yes.
听着。
Look.
只要别再扩张就好。
Just don't even grow.
我们能不能先做到政府规模不再逐年增长，然后再实现1%的缩减？
Can we just get to the point where it doesn't grow year on year and then get 1% smaller?
然后我说，好吧。
And I was like, okay.
如果我们谈论那个红色按钮和乌托邦式的终极目标，那永远不可能实现。
If we talk about the big red button and the utopian end goal, it's never gonna happen.
但如果我们能渗透进政府，让它少发动战争，少征税，多支持商业呢？
But if can we just infiltrate government and just make it start less wars and, you know, tax less and be pro business?
是的。
Yes.
你只需要进入并开始行动。
You just have to get in and just start hacking.
没错。
Yeah.
如果你不愿意这么做，那你什么也做不成。
And if you're not willing to do that, you're not you're not gonna do anything.
明白吗？
You know?
所以，我做的第一件事就是与当时正在竞选的特朗普总统达成协议，这感觉非常超现实。
So so, like, the first thing I did was make a deal with with president Trump when he was running, which was really surreal.
对吧？
Right?
然后我被邀请到海湖庄园，他迟到了几分钟，因为当时他正在纽约南区为法律案件作证，然后就直接飞过来和我共进晚餐。
And so I got invited to Mar A Lago, and he was a few minutes late because he was testifying in his law fair case in the Southern District Of New York and literally flew in to meet me for dinner.
而且他非常亲切、热情友好，他确实喜欢全熟的牛排配番茄酱，这在美国和意大利都很特别。
And and he was very sweet and warm and and friendly, and he does eat his steak well done with ketchup, which in The United States, Italy.
就像我爸爸一样。
It's like my dad.
是啊。
Yeah.
我们去餐厅时，
We go to a restaurant.
我爸爸点牛排时基本上会说，要煎到焦，如果看到一点血丝，就要退回去。
My dad, when he orders a steak, he he basically says, want it burnt, and if I see any blood, it's going back.
是的。
Yes.
他说
He goes
他试图把我那份退回去，因为牛排太生了，但后来他道歉说，哦，对不起。
He tried to send mine back because it was it was rare, but then he apologized and said, oh, I'm sorry.
你知道，你可能比我更注重健康。
You know, you're you're probably healthier than I am.
无所谓啦。
It's whatever.
想吃什么就吃什么。
Eat whatever you want.
懂吗？
You know?
但我得和他谈谈。
But I got to talk to him.
是的。
Yeah.
我和他进行了长达两小时的对话，他完全听取了我丈夫和我所说的一切。
I had, like, a two hour conversation with him where he totally listened to everything that my husband and I said.
我们讨论了毒品战争之类的话题，我当时说，也许不该给每个毒贩都判死刑。
We talked about, like, the drug war, and I was like, well, maybe don't give every drug dealer the death penalty.
你知道，他确实在认真听，明白吗？
You know, he was he was listening, you know?
嗯。
Mhmm.
最后到了该提出请求的时候了。
You know, it finally got to the point where, you know, it was like make the ask.
我该要求他做些什么来争取自由党的选票呢？
What what should I ask him to do to get libertarian votes?
而这就是我们真正开始进入行动阶段的地方。
And and this is where it's like we start to get into, like, really, like, action.
明白吗？
You know?
你觉得外面有多少自由意志主义者的选票？
How many libertarian votes do you think there are out there?
至少，稳稳的有120万张。
At minimum, like, a solid 1,200,000.
好的。
Okay.
这还不包括抗议票和那些只是盲目勾选的人。
And that's not counting protest votes and people who are just ignorantly checking a box.
那些人就像是铁杆支持者，比如我是注册的自由意志主义者或持证会员。
That's like people who are just, like, dedicated, like, I am a registered libertarian or a card carrying member.
我认同这个身份。
I identify.
我知道这意味着什么。
I know what it is.
但如果你能影响戴夫·史密斯、斯科特·霍顿或Yes这些人
But but if you can influence a a Dave Smith or a Scott Horton or Yes.
让这些自由主义者说：'听着，我们或许应该主动讨论特朗普可能会做些好事'
Like any of those people who are libertarians to say, look, we're to maybe proactively talk about Trump might do some good things.
会有听众群体可能是摇摆选民或共和党人
There are people who are gonna be listening to them who may be just floating voters or Republicans
对
Yep.
那些犹豫不决的人
Who are unsure.
所以这能发挥更大作用
So it does a bigger job.
哦，确实
Oh, yeah.
没错
Yeah.
而且，我是说，当加里·约翰逊参选时，得票率是3.2%。
And, I mean, when Gary Johnson ran, it was, 3.2%.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以这个数字会因候选人不同而大幅波动，他可是前州长。
So it goes up and down a lot depending on the candidate, and he was a former governor.
他足以左右选举结果。
He could swing an election.
没错。
Yes.
嗯，这就是他联系我的原因。
Well, that that's why he reached out to me.
你明白吗？
You know?
他之前和我通过很长时间电话，然后才线下见面。
He was like, I I've had a long phone call with him before I met with him in person.
他说，哦，是乔·乔根森。
He's like, oh, Joe Jorgensen.
她她替我投了票。
She she took the vote for me.
她在2020年投了票。
She took the vote in 2020.
你知道吗？
You know?
哦，是自由党。
Oh, the Libertarians.
是啊。
Yeah.
你们赢不了的。
You're not going to win.
你不会...他就说，嗯我知道我们赢不了。
You're not going to was like, well, I I know we're not going to win.
你知道吗？
You know?
我其实并不担心获胜。
I'm I'm not really worried about winning.
你知道，我们正在努力做些事情。
I'm you know, we're trying to do something.
在这个播客中，你肯定会经常听到我谈论比特币。
So on this podcast, you are definitely hearing me talk about Bitcoin a lot.
为什么呢？
Well, why?
我们生活在一个非常奇怪的时代，政府通过鲁莽的开支和无休止的印钞推动通货膨胀。
We live in a really strange time with governments driving inflation with their reckless spending and endless money printing.
有一条出路。
There is a way out of this.
有一种方法可以保护你的财富，那就是囤积比特币。
There is a way to protect your money, and that is by stacking Bitcoin.
我已经做了很多关于比特币的节目。
I've made loads of shows about Bitcoin.
你可以去研究一下。
You can go and research this.
你可以去阅读相关书籍，但事实是它是有史以来最坚挺的货币。
You can go and read the books, but the truth is it is the hardest money ever created.
如果你有兴趣保护自己的财务未来，现在是时候登上比特币这趟列车了。
If you are interested in protecting your financial future, it's time for you to get on the Bitcoin train.
我已经这么做了。
I have.
自2017年起，我个人和我的企业就一直在囤积比特币。
I've been stacking Bitcoin personally and through my businesses since 2017.
它保护了我。
It's protected me.
它保障了我家庭的未来，同时也强化了我所有的企业。
It secured my family's future, and it also strengthens all of my businesses.
如果你想开始囤积比特币，应该去哪里操作呢？
So if you wanna start stacking Bitcoin, where do you do it?
对我来说，选择的是Gemini交易所。
Well, for me, it's with Gemini.
他们是完全合规的全储备交易所和托管机构，为你提供安全可靠的比特币买卖和持有服务。
They're a fully licensed full reserve exchange and custodian, so they give you a secure way for you to buy and own your Bitcoin.
没有任何风险，也没有猫腻。
There's no risks and no funny business.
如果你认真想以正确方式囤积比特币，请访问gemini.com，网址就是gemini.com。
So if you're serious about stacking Bitcoin the right way, head over to gemini.com, which is gemini.com.
这是否意味着你自己不推举候选人，而是让人们投票选出他们支持的人？
And does that mean not putting a candidate forward yourself to vote to have people to vote for?
嗯，我有个理论。
Well, I mean, I have a theory.
关于这个我有个想要实施的策略。
I have a strategy on that that I'd I'd like to do.
我在海湖庄园对特朗普总统说的是，如果你愿意来参加我们的全国代表大会——因为他想在大会上发言——那正是我们提名总统候选人的场合。
So what I told what I told, you know, president Trump at at Mar A Lago was if you will if you come to our convention, because he wanted to come speak at our national convention, that's just where we nominate our candidate for president.
我说，如果你来发言（这对我来说极具争议性，甚至可能是政治自杀），但如果你走上台宣布要释放罗斯·乌布利希，所有人都会疯狂。
I said, if you come speak there, which is extremely controversial and maybe political suicide for me, but if you walk out on stage and you say that you're gonna free Ross Ulbrich, everyone will lose their minds.
没错。
Yep.
他们会尖叫着为你投票。
They will scream, and they will all vote for you.
如果那时他们还没被说服，随着时间推移和现实感越来越强，他们也会改变主意投给你。
And if they still aren't convinced right then and there, they're gonna change their minds, and they're gonna vote for you as the time gets closer, as it becomes more and more real.
我还说，比特币玩家们平时根本不投票。
And and I said, and the Bitcoiners, you know, they don't even vote.
但他们不仅会投票给你，还会资助你。
They will vote for you, and they will give you their money.
他们可有不少钱。
And they got a lot of money.
他问，谁是罗斯·乌尔伯格？
And he said, who's Ross Ulberg?
我会做的。
I'll do it.
我会走上舞台说，释放罗斯·乌尔伯格。
I'll walk out on stage, and I'll say, free Ross Ulberg.
扔下麦克风。
Mic drop.
就是这样。
It was just like that.
你知道吗？
You know?
就像，就是这么简单。
Like, it was it was that easy.
显然，你知道，当选并成为一个非常混乱组织的主席几年确实很艰难，但这个要求就是这么简单。
Like, obviously, you know, it's like a it was a real slog to get elected and have to be the chairman of a very dysfunctional organization for a couple of years, but, like, it was the the ask was just that easy.
所以你获得了自由党的选票，还有橙色的比特币。
So you got the Libertarian vote and the, orange Bitcoin.
他确实做到了。
He did.
他确实做到了。
He did.
他确实做到了，而且我们自由党候选人的得票率创下历史新低，因为我们还是推举了一位候选人。
He did, and we had a record low vote, for the Libertarian candidate because we did still run one.
好吧。
Okay.
我们推举的这位候选人被许多成员称为'同性恋种族共产主义者'。
We ran a guy who a lot of our members refer to as, quote, a gay race communist.
他是个非常左翼的人，到处挂满彩虹旗。
He was a very left wing, rainbow flags everywhere.
他把所有时间都花在骄傲游行上。
He spent all of his time at pride parades.
特朗普总统高兴得不能再高兴了。
President Trump could not have been happier.
当我告诉他的工作人员我们选的人选时，他们都
His when I told his staff who we selected, they all
说，是的。
said, yes.
这是战略性的吗？
Was that strategic?
嗯，有一点吧。
Well, a little bit.
我是说，这就像个愉快的意外，而且我们确实没有合适的候选人。
I mean, it was like a happy accident, and we didn't have a good candidate.
我们就是没有合适的候选人。
We just didn't have a good candidate.
你知道，戴夫·史密斯本来打算参选的。
You know, Dave Smith was gonna run.
是的。
Yes.
然后他因为家庭原因不得不退出，你知道，我们问到第六或第七个人时才找到候选人。米塞斯核心小组的候选人没有获胜，因为我们确实没有一个强有力的候选人。
And and he had to back out for family reasons, and, you know, we got to, like, our sixth or seventh ask, got a candidate, you know, and the Mises Caucus candidate didn't win because we just didn't have we just didn't have a strong candidate.
所以在七轮大会投票之后，这就是我们剩下的选择。
And so after, like, seven rounds of convention voting, that was, you know, what we were left with.
我本可以把他从选票上撤下来并强迫我的董事会吗？
And could I have pulled him off the ballot and forced my board?
可以。
Yes.
你知道吗？
You know?
但那样我们就无法让罗斯·乌布里希特出狱，而且会毁掉我与特朗普总统的关系。
But but then we don't get Ross Ulbrich out of prison, and I burn my relationship with with president Trump.
所以不行。
So no.
我们继续留着这个小丑。
We're keeping the clown on.
你知道吗？
You know?
我称之为吃屎自杀任务，但我们是自杀小队。
I I referred to it as a shit eating suicide mission, but we're the suicide squad.
那你为此挨了不少枪子儿吧？
So have you taken many bullets for this?
哦，太多了。
Oh, so many.
两起诉讼，可能还有更多在路上。
Two lawsuits, maybe more on the way.
哦，是啊。
Oh, yeah.
哦，是啊。
Oh, yeah.
但你一定也得到了一些支持。
But you must have some support as well.
哦，支持可多了。
Oh, a ton of support.
支持很多，反对也很多，但我的意思是，反对者只是个小群体。
A ton of support, a ton of hate, but, I mean, the haters are it's a small group.
你懂吗？
You know?
他们现在仍然非常愤怒。
They're they're very angry still.
那么自由意志主义者们现在是什么态度？
So so how so how are the libertarians right now?
因为如果你听戴夫·史密斯的话，他对特朗普很不满。
Because if you listen to Dave Smith, he's he's not happy with Trump.
他认为特朗普兑现了部分承诺，但美国确实仍在参与战争。
He thinks he's done some bits he said he would do, but, yeah, there's still the The US has still been involved in wars.
是的。
Yes.
你知道吗？
You know?
他们仍然轰炸了伊朗，而且债务问题也没有真正得到缓解。
And they they still bombed Iran, and they haven't really got the debt down.
如果说有什么变化，我认为是债务增加了？
If anything, I think it what is up?
两万五千亿。
Two and a half trillions.
而且还会
And it's gonna
是增加了。
It's up.
是增加了。
It's up.
有这么一个人叫尼玛·帕尔维尼。
And so there's this guy called Neemah Parvini.
他写了一本书叫《民粹主义的幻象》。
He wrote a book called The Populist Delusion.
书中谈到民粹主义候选人掌权后，实际上却无法...
Talks about populist candidates getting into power, and then they can't actually
这很有挑战性。
It's challenging.
确实很有挑战性。
It's challenging.
参议员艾丽莎·斯洛特金，一位民主党人，刚发布了一段完整视频，鼓动情报机构人员违抗总统。
Senator Alyssa Slotkin, just a a Democrat, just released a a whole video about defy, telling people in the intelligence agencies to defy the president.
民主党基本上已经向我们宣战了，从一些比特币案件也能看出来，纽约南区法院，还有全国各地的激进派法官都在说'我要裁定总统不能做这个那个'。
Like, the the Democrats, you know, have have basically just declared cold war on us, you know, and you see that with some of these Bitcoin cases too, the Southern District Of New York, and judges, activist judges across the country are like, I you know, I'm gonna make a ruling that says the president can't do x, y, and z.
问题是，你们又不是最高法院。
It's like, you're you're not the supreme court.
你是谁？
Who are you?
知道吗？
You know?
你不过是个下级法院的法官。
You're like a lower circuit judge.
你没资格决定这个。
You don't get to decide that.
自由主义者们现在相当恼火。
The libertarians are pretty pretty pissed off right now.
我是说，我显然很同情，但我有长远规划。
I think I mean, I'm sympathetic, obviously, but I have a long term vision.
好吧。
Okay.
如果我们每半年就因事情不顺而暴跳如雷，就永远无法取得进展。
I'm not like, if we flip out every six months when things don't go our way, we're just never gonna be able be able to advance.
如果我们这么快就断送所有关系，我们就得在体制内进行长征。
If if we burn all of our relationships that quickly, we have to do a long march through the institutions.
是的。
Yes.
你们积累了一些胜利。
You stack some wins.
我们必须积累胜利。
We have to stack wins.
这是我们的第一个重大胜利。
This is our first this is our first major victory.
很多人只想彻底摧毁一切，但我认为不行。
We can't a lot of people just wanna burn it all down, and and I'm just like, no.
你必须保持纪律，继续前进。
You just have to be disciplined and and, like, just keep marching.
明白吗？
You know?
你不能这样破坏与管理层的关系。
You can't you can't burn your relationship with the administration like this.
这太愚蠢了。
It's it's stupid.
是否存在你被卷入的风险？我想到了《纸牌屋》，我看过那部剧。
Is there any risk that you get I think of house of cars, and I watched that.
嗯。
Mhmm.
就像掀开了帷幕，看到背后真实的交易和运作。
It was like looking behind the veil of what really goes on and all that kind of deals.
你如何避免被体制同化，成为其中的一部分？
Is there any risk that you get sucked into the machine, become part of it?
你如何保持自己的原则？
How do you maintain your own principles?
噢，当然会。
Oh, absolutely.
确实如此。
Absolutely.
确实存在风险。
There's a risk.
对我来说，我选择保持注册自由党人的身份。
I mean, so for me, I just stay like a registered libertarian.
好的。
Okay.
我不会去移动那个奥弗顿窗口。
And I don't shift that Overton window.
好的。
Okay.
我本质上就像是自由党人派驻政府的代表，因为我能保持得体，与他们友好交谈而不冒犯他们。
And I stay I I am essentially like an ambassador to the administration for the libertarians because I can, you know, still behave myself and, you know, talk nicely to them and and not insult them.
但我的目标是缩小政府规模。
But I you know, my goal is to shrink government.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以如果我们的人能进去，我已经投了上百份简历，虽然招聘进展缓慢，但现在开始有起色了。
And so if we're getting our people in, and I did send hundreds of resumes in, and hiring has been slow, but it's starting to pick up.
只要能招进几个人开始工作，这就是个好的开端。
If we get a few people in who start to do the job, that's a start.
你明白吗？1
You know?
对我而言，归根结底就是看政府规模是否缩小了。
We just it just at the end of the day, to me, it's like, did it shrink?
如果缩小了，那我们就走对路了。
If it shrunk, then then we're on the right track.
我们至少需要给它几个周期的时间。
We need to give it at least a couple of cycles.
好的。
Okay.
也就是说要经历完整的特朗普政府到下一届政府，是的。
So that means through the full Trump administration to the next one Yes.
很多人讨论说应该是而且可能是JD·万斯。
Which a lot of people talk should and could be JD Vance.
是的。
Yes.
他将面临一场硬仗，对手很可能是AOC或加文·纽森。
He will have a hell of a battle against likely the AOC or Gavin Newsom, probably.
这两人中的一个。
One of those two.
他显然在积极争取这个位置。
He's clearly jockeying for the position.
或者他们可能会安排他当副总统，选个更温和、不那么滑头的人，你知道，我也不确定。
Or they may they may slot him in as VP and put someone more moderate and less slimy in, you know I I don't know.
也许他们从卡玛拉身上吸取了教训。
Maybe they learned their lesson with Kamala.
也许他们没吸取教训。
Maybe they didn't.
不过将会有一场激战。
There's gonna be a battle, though.
这将是一场硬仗，尤其是如果右翼士气不振的话。
It will be a it will be a battle, especially if morale doesn't pick up on the right wing.
是啊。
Yeah.
而且右翼目前似乎有些分裂。
And the right wing's it seems a bit fractured at the moment.
太糟糕了。
It's horrible.
太糟糕了。
It's horrible.
人们都气疯了。
People are just flipping out.
查理·柯克去世后，整个局面就崩溃了。
Charlie Kirk died, and everything just imploded.
是啊。
Yep.
就这么崩溃了。
It just imploded.
嗯。
Yeah.
我到现在还为此感到难过。
I'm still upset about that.
那太可怕了。
It was horrible.
我们昨天还在重温他的视频。
We were watching videos of his again yesterday.
我觉得他是你们最优秀的人才。
I think he's the best you had.
他确实是我们中最优秀的。
He was literally the best we had.
是啊。
Yeah.
他非常慷慨大方。
He was just he was so generous.
他为人特别善良。
He was so kind.
我其实不太...我是说，我觉得觉醒思想病毒如何运作很令人着迷，因为他就是单纯地与人对话。
I don't really I mean, I guess it's fascinating how, like, the woke mind virus works because he he would just have conversations with people.
他既不残忍也不贬低他人。
He wasn't cruel or belittling.
你知道吗？
You know?
他不会认同他们的观点，但他从不对任何人恶语相向。
He wouldn't he wouldn't agree with them, but he was never nasty to anyone.
我看了好多视频。
I've I've watched so many videos.
这太疯狂了。
It's it's just wild.
是啊。
Yeah.
但他挑战了那种左翼正统观念，这种观念从原本代表工人阶级的东西演变成了各种疯狂荒谬的胡说八道。
But he he challenged that kind of leftist orthodoxy that has grown out of what used to be something that was about the working class and then just came about all this kind of insane crazy bullshit.
非常简单的道理。
Really simple stuff.
比如，男人不能变成女人。
Like, men can't become women.
没错。
Yes.
堕胎是错误的，这就是我的观点。
Abortion is wrong, and here's why I think so.
就是非常直截了当，你知道的，不太情绪化，相当理性。
Just really just straightforward, know, not super emotional, fairly rational.
福利制度会让你陷入贫困。
Welfare traps you in poverty.
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
我在路上看了个很棒的视频，里面谈到年轻人时说，我给年轻人的建议就是走出去努力工作，别再抱怨政府和觉得自己该得到什么。
I watched this really good video on the way we was talking about young people and says, like, my message to young people is just get out there and work hard and stop whining about government and what you deserve.
别再扮演受害者了。
Stop being a victim.
我当时就想，这可是为人父母的道理啊。
And I was like, this is I'm a parent.
对吧？
Right?
我希望我的孩子看的是查理·柯克那种说‘生活本就不易’的人，还是看扎普·波兰斯基或者那个不懂经济却整天嚷嚷向富人征税、把所有人都塑造成受害者的盖瑞·经济学？
Do I want my children to be watching Zap Polansky or we have this guy other guy, Gary Economics, who doesn't understand economics, ranting about taxing the rich and making everyone a victim, or do I want them to watch Charlie Kirk who says, look, Life is hard.
走出去，努力工作。
Get out there and work hard.
别整天抱怨。
Like, stop whinging.
走出去，努力工作。
Get out there and work hard.
这才是我希望孩子们看到的内容。
That's what I want my kids to see.
没错。
Yes.
但英国现在的问题是，尤其在年轻人中，越来越多的人认为政府欠他们什么，这群人可能成为多数派，这将把我们国家拖入死亡螺旋。
But our problem here in The UK is we have a growing, especially amongst the youngster, a growing base who think they deserve something from the government, and they are they could become the majority, and that that's gonna create a death spiral in our country.
这确实很可怕。
It's very scary.
Z世代也存在同样的情况。
We have the same thing in in Gen z.
你知道吗？
You know?
Z世代的男性开始倾向右翼，但这趋势才刚开始。
Gen z males are starting to lean to the right, but that that's starting to.
这种说法可能有点误导，因为Z世代大多数还是左翼。
That that phrase can be a little bit deceptive because most of them, most of Gen z is left wing.
其中有些人正开始脱离主流。
There's some of them are starting to break away.
所有女性群体。
All of the women.
绝大多数女性都是左派。
It's like vast majority of the women are leftists.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这非常可怕。
It's very scary.
你知道吗？
You know?
尽管千禧一代和X世代对婴儿潮一代很愤怒，但婴儿潮一代正在阻挡Z世代的社会主义浪潮。
As angry as as millennials and Gen Xers are boomers, boomers are, like, holding the Gen Z socialism at bay.
等他们去世后，我们就必须真正动员千禧一代投票，因为Z世代可能会在投票中彻底击垮我们。
When they die, it's gonna be like, we're gonna have to really mobilize millennials as voters because Gen Z could just absolutely wreck us in the polls.
是Z世代让曼哈顿赢得了投票吗？
Was it was it Gen Zs who won Manned Army the vote?
我想是的。
I think so.
我是说，虽然有很多阴谋论或观点认为这是对以色列的公投，但我不认同，因为这只是地方选举。
I mean, I really think you know, there's all these conspiracies about or ideas like, oh, it was a referendum on Israel, which I don't think is correct because it's a local election.
即便有视频显示埃里克·亚当斯亲吻墙壁之类的，但他并没有参选。
Even if there's videos of Eric Adams kissing a wall or or whatever, you know, he wasn't in the running.
我认为纽约人真的对高昂的生活成本非常愤怒。
I think people in New York were really pissed off at how expensive it was.
是啊。
Yeah.
这就是为什么他们大多数人都投票了。
And that that's why most of them voted.
他们想，好吧。
They're like, well, okay.
他是个疯狂的觉醒派穆斯林，不是在美国出生的，关于他的一切都很可疑奇怪，但大家实在对物价太高太愤怒了。
He's a crazy woke Muslim guy who wasn't born in The United States, and everything's really sketchy and weird about him, but just really pissed off about how expensive things are.
所以我们就给他个机会试试吧。
So we're gonna give him a try.
不过真有意思，你觉得他的任期会有多长？
It's so funny, though, because my expectation how how long does his term?
四年吗？
Four years?
是的。
Yes.
四年后，由于他的所作所为，物价会变得更加昂贵。
In four years' time, things will be even more expensive because of the things he does.
哦，我确信。
Oh, I'm sure.
是啊。
Yeah.
我确信。
I'm sure.
你可能会享受到更便宜的租金。
You might have some cheaper rents.
而且所有的百万富翁都在离开纽约。
And all the millionaires are leaving New York.
所以就像这里这样？
So it's like here?
是的。
Yes.
他们去迈阿密吗？
They go to Miami?
我想他们要去迈阿密。
I think they're going to Miami.
他们正搬往红州。
They're going to red states.
对。
Yeah.
他们正搬往红州。
They're going to red states.
所以，我是说，可能是坦帕和奥兰多。
So, I mean, maybe Tampa and Orlando.
很多人正搬往佛罗里达。
A lot of them are going to Florida.
他们可能在考虑北卡罗来纳州。
They're probably looking at North Carolina.
我确定也许我们会在德克萨斯州的奥斯汀看到一些。
I'm sure maybe we'll see some in Austin, Texas.
是的。
Yeah.
纽约就像迷你英国。
It's New York is like mini UK.
英国正在发生的事情也正在纽约发生。
We're the what's happening in The UK is is happening in New York.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我们去了那里，我们当时在哪儿？
So we went out there where were we there?
三、四周前？
Three, four weeks ago?
是啊。
Yeah.
我们三四周前去的，变化很大。
We went out three or four weeks ago, and it's changed a lot.
我从20年，应该是2002年，也就是9/11事件后的第二年就开始去了。
I've been going since '20, what, 2002, year after 09/11.
第一次去的时候，看到那座城市真是令人惊叹。
And first time I went, it was it was amazing to see the city.
去了布鲁克林，那里很危险，然后就回来了。
Went to Brooklyn, it was dangerous, and came back.
没错。
Yeah.
然后这些年，我几乎每年都去，感觉一次比一次好。
And then over the years, I I mean, I go nearly every year, and I just sort of get better and better and better.
我觉得对我来说，巅峰时期大概是2015年左右。
I think it peaked for me probably, like, 2015.
那真是太棒了。
It was brilliant.
是的。
Yes.
布鲁克林令人惊叹。
Brooklyn was amazing.
有一次我去纽约，就住在威廉斯堡。
There there was one time I went to New York, and I stayed in Williamsburg.
我甚至都没去曼哈顿。
I didn't even go into Manhattan.
玩得很开心。
Had a great time.
但疫情之后我再去，就看到情况变得越来越糟。
And then I've been going back since COVID, and I've just seen it get worse and worse and worse.
对我来说，真正的信号是突然又看到大量无家可归者，而且不仅仅是无家可归那么简单。
Like, the the real signal for me is you suddenly saw lots of homeless people again, but not just homeless.
无家可归者随处可见，还有那些嗑芬太尼嗑到神志不清的人。
Homeless and just just the highest fuck off fentanyl or something.
是的。
Yes.
时代广场上甚至公开进行可卡因交易。
And open cocaine dealing in Times Square.
比如有人直接走过来问你'要买可卡因吗'。
Like, people just come up to you and say, do you wanna buy Coke?
我当时就愣住了。
I was like, hold on.
以前在时代广场总能看到警察。
I used to see police in Times Square.
现在他们居然公开贩卖可卡因。
Now they're selling cocaine openly.
简直了，而且我根本不在乎这些。
It's just like and I don't care.
我是说，我以前也吸可卡因，但这强烈地向我表明这座城市正在腐朽。
I mean, I used to use cocaine, but it's just the signal for me is strong that this is a city decaying.
问题不在于无家可归者独善其身。
It's not homeless keeping to themselves.
不是。
No.
而是他们变得极具攻击性。
It's they're they're aggressive.
他们充满愤怒。
They're angry.
吸毒行为公然进行。
The drug use is out in the open.
垃圾遍地。
Trash.
到处都是。
Everywhere.
垃圾遍地。
Trash everywhere.
老鼠遍地。
Rats everywhere.
到处都是。
Everywhere.
洛杉矶也一样，但纽约实在太可悲了，因为朱利安尼，你知道的，那个有争议的人物。
LA is the same, but but New York is just so sad because Giuliani, you know, who you know, controversial.
他确实做过一些我们不太认同的事情，但他确实把城市整顿干净了。
He did he did some some things that we were not crazy about, but he cleaned it up.
他确实让城市变干净了，但现在简直是一片荒芜。
He did get it clean, and it's just it's a wasteland.
我去洗衣服所以去了QC Thomas酒吧，然后去了华盛顿公园，那里的场景太诡异了。
I went to wash so I went down to pub QC Thomas, and I went to Washington Park, and the it was the weirdest scenarios.
我正穿过华盛顿公园，你知道沿着小路那一排排的长椅。
I'm walking through Washington Park, and you know the rows of benches down the paths.
你看到有人因芬太尼过量而蜷缩着，旁边却坐着一对约会的情侣。
You've got people buckled over high of fentanyl and sat next to them as a couple on a date.
我无法理解。
I can't understand.
就像什么？
Just like what?
你怎么能让你女朋友坐在一个芬太尼嗨翻的瘾君子旁边？
What are you doing sitting your sitting your woman down next to the high on fentanyl drug out?
我猜是没其他地方可坐了，如果她累了的话。
I guess there's nowhere else to sit and if she's tired.
嗯，我是说，我对美国未来几年会发生什么很着迷。
Well so, I mean, I'm I'm fascinated by what's gonna happen over the next few years in America.
是啊。
Yeah.
我真的很期待。
I really look.
我希望我的意思是，你计划如何缩小政府规模？
I hope I mean, what is your plan to make government smaller?
我们如何...你具体会怎么做？
How we how how will you actually do it?
好的。
Okay.
目前管理和预算办公室正在进行大量工作，但由于这些工作不像讨论爱泼斯坦文件或以色列问题那样引人注目，所以社交媒体上没有相关报道。
So there's a lot of work being done in the office of management and budget right now, and it doesn't get coverage on social media because it's just not as sexy as screaming about the Epstein files or Israel.
但美国国际开发署就是这样被裁撤的。
But that's how USAID got cut.
他们把预算削减为零了。
They zeroed out the budget.
阿玛丽利斯·福克斯和拉斯·沃特做得非常出色，而且方法其实很简单。
Amaryllis Fox and and Russ Vaught are doing an incredible job, and it's it's really simple.
这是用来做什么的？
It's what's this for?
预算项目。
Budget item.
你需要这笔钱吗？
You need this money?
这是用来做什么的？
What's it for?
你不能告诉我吗？
You can't tell me?
我不会直接拒绝，但只有你告诉我用途后才会拨款。
Just I'm not gonna say no, but I just we'll release it when you tell me.
真是令人惊讶。
And just just wow.
令人难以置信的是，人们就是不愿——他们既不想花钱，也不愿告诉你钱花在什么地方。
It's amazing how how much people just don't wanna they don't wanna spend they don't wanna let you know what they're spending money on.
所以你知道，他们确实做得很好。
And so, you know, they're doing a really good job.
他们在审计各项事务。
They're auditing things.
他们在降低成本。
They're getting costs down.
我们只需要坚持这一点。
We just have to hold on to that.
大额资金都流向哪里了？
Where are the big pockets of money?
如果...我...我不清楚具体数字，比如在英国，我想我们的税收大约是...我不知道...万亿级别。
If you I I don't know what the like, in The UK, I think our I'd say our tax revenue is about, I don't know, trillion.
确实。
Sure.
而我们支出大约1,150,000,000,000.00英镑。
And we spend about 1,150,000,000,000.00.
所以我们超支了约15%。
So we're we're going over by about 15%.
我不清楚美国的情况，但在我们这儿，我知道大额支出项目之一是国家医疗服务体系。
I don't know what it is in The US, but we're I know our big pockets of spend, one is the National Health Service.
我想那大概占20%左右。
I think that's about 20%.
10%用于债务利息。
10% is debt interest.
对。
Yeah.
社会福利总额大概是，嗯，可能40%吧。
Total welfare is, I don't know, maybe 40%.
你看，这些就是大项支出。
Like, there are big pockets.
那美国的大额支出在哪些方面呢？
Where's where's the big pockets in The US?
国防和医疗。
Defense and health.
国防和医疗。
Defense and health.
还有，有一些非常优秀的共和党活动人士正在审计医疗补助中的浪费、欺诈和滥用行为，他们发现全国范围内可能接近一万亿美元。
And and there's another there there are some really good GOP activists who are doing auditing of Medicaid waste fraud and abuse, and they're finding it's gonna be, I think, close to a trillion dollars nationwide.
哇。
Wow.
大部分在加州。
Most of it in California.
一点都不意外。
Big surprise.
我是说，美国那些年收入170万美元的人，他们应该获得免费处方药吗？
I mean, should people in The United States who bring in $1,700,000 annually, should they be getting free prescription drugs?
不应该。
No.
不应该。
No.
负担得起。
Can afford it.
是啊。
Yeah.
自己买自己的东西。
Buy your buy your stuff.
自己买自己的东西。
Buy your stuff.
这太疯狂了。
That's insane.
你知道吗？
You know?
中产阶级自费买药，而有些人（可能是婴儿潮一代）却能免费拿药，这简直荒谬至极。
It's totally insane that middle class people are paying for their prescription drugs, and there are people, boomers probably, who are are just getting free drugs.
这可不是免费的。
It's not free.
纳税人为之买单。
Taxpayers are paying for it.
所以如果能清理这些问题，是的，确实有可能缩减政府规模。
So if that gets cleaned up, like, yeah, it is possible to shrink government.
这确实是项艰巨的工作，而且政府内部有人反对缩减规模。
It's just really hard work, and there are people in government who are fighting it who don't wanna shrink it.
他们想推动全民医保，我认为这就是为什么...我是说像奥巴马医改，那只是个开始。
They wanna push us to universal health care, and I think that's why I think that's I mean, like Obamacare, that was the start of it.
嗯。
Mhmm.
民主党人当时强烈抗议，因为他们想要全民医保，却只得到了奥巴马医改。
And the Dems screamed because they wanted universal health care, but they only got Obamacare.
他们比右翼的任何人都更有纪律性。
They're much more disciplined than anybody on the right.
他们会为自己想要的东西不断斗争、斗争、再斗争。
They'll fight, fight, fight for what they want.
他们得到的东西比那要少。
They get something lesser than that.
他们大闹一场后坚持立场，不断将奥弗顿窗口推向他们的方向。
They scream through a fit, stick to it, and just keep pushing the Overton window in their direction.
所以在这里全民医保是神圣不可侵犯的。
So universal health care here is sacred.
英国国家医疗服务体系(NHS)是神圣的。
The NHS is sacred.
没错。
Yep.
任何试图，你知道，甚至考虑将其部分内容私有化的想法，比如说，如果你想去看医生，你得先预约。
Any attempt to, you know, even consider kind of elements of it that we should maybe privatize or, like so for example, if you wanna go to the doctors, you find out the doctors, you get an appointment.
但这需要三周时间，因为预约的人很多，然后你才能去。
But it takes three weeks because there's a lot of people on appointments, and you turn up.
那里大多数人其实根本不需要看医生。
Most of the people in there don't need to be at the doctors.
如果你去急诊室，确实会遇到遭遇车祸、被刺伤或心脏病发作的人，但也有很多人是因为焦虑或本应由普通医生处理的问题而来。
If you go to an accident emergency, yes, you have people turn up, been in a car crash or, you know, stabbed or heart attack, but you got a lot of people turn up with anxiety or issues that the doctors should handle.
在爱尔兰，他们推行医生服务的方式是：如果你想看医生，需支付50欧元。
In Ireland, the way they sold the doctors is if you want to go to the doctors, it's €50.
就这样。
That's it.
每个人都必须支付这笔费用，这是个好主意。
And every single person has to pay And and it's a good idea.
但即便只是将这种模式引入英国的想法，都会遭到人们的反对。
And but even the idea of bringing land into The UK, people fight against.
他们希望所有医疗服务在就诊时都能免费提供。
They want all health care provided free at the point of access.
不是免费的。
Not free.
从来都不是免费的。
It's never free.
这不是免费的。
It's not free.
世上没有免费的东西。
There's no such thing as free.
但在你的世界观里，社会医疗保健还有存在的空间吗？
But but is there any place for social health care in your worldview?
我不这么认为。
I don't think so.
我是说，在社区层面。
I mean, at the community level.
是的。
Yeah.
但不是在联邦层面。
But not at the federal level.
好吧。
Okay.
不在联邦层面。
Not at the federal level.
我正打算放弃我的医疗保险。
I'm about to just drop my health insurance.
我每个月要支付426美元，就为了拥有它。
I pay $426 a month, I think, just to have it.
你知道，我还得支付共付额。
You know, that I have to pay a co pay.
每次我踏进医院大门都得付钱，实际上我甚至都不去。
Every time I walk through the door, I don't actually even go.
你知道吗？
You know?
但如果我真的去看病，光是普通门诊就得支付20到80美元不等的共付额。
But if I were to walk through the door, I have to pay a co pay somewhere between 20 and $80 just for a regular doctor visit.
我准备放弃医保，转向众筹医疗了。
I'm about to drop it and go to crowdfunded health care.
这样会更便宜。
It's gonna be cheaper.
我能获得更好的保障。
I'm gonna have better coverage.
如果需要的话，我可以直接去看专科医生。
I'll be able to go to a specialist directly if I need to.
是啊。
Yeah.
我只是...我简直无法想象。
I just can't I just can't imagine.
是...是叫CrowdHealth吗？
Is is is anyone called CrowdHealth?
不就是那个大的...对。
Isn't that the big yes.
没错。
Yeah.
他们做得非常出色。
They've they've been doing great.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yes.
确实如此。
They have.
我正准备转向那个方案。
I'm about to jump to that.
我觉得这样更合理。
I think it makes more sense.
那是怎么运作的？
How does that work?
就是你付费——我上周才刚研究过这个。
So you pay I was looking and I just looked at it like a week ago.
你每月至少支付40美元，这就像是一个大型的GoFundMe众筹。
You pay at least $40 a month, and it's like a big GoFundMe.
对吧？
Right?
好的。
Okay.
每个月，你都会收到筹款请求。
Every month, you're gonna get pitched.
有人需要做手术。
Somebody needs an operation.
他们需要这个或那个。
They need a this or a that.
你的保费会上涨，但涨幅不会超过140到150美元。
Your premium is gonna go up, but it won't go up more than, like, 140 to a $150.
对于四口或更多人口的家庭，最高限额大约是350或360美元。
And it's maxed out for families of four or more at, like it's, like, 350 or $360.
这太疯狂了，我当时就想，我可以把全家人都加入这个计划，花费比我现在个人常规医疗保险还要少。
Some crazy I was like, I could put my whole family on that and pay less than I'm paying for me, myself, on regular health insurance.
当你需要手术或者生孩子时，自付费用最高只需3000美元。
And when you need an operation or if you're I think if you have a baby, the max you pay out of pocket is $3,000.
我之前有医疗保险时花了8000美元。
It was $8,000 for me with health insurance.
这有点像在私有环境框架下的社会化医疗体系。
It's it's kind of is socialized health care within the construct of a private environment.
是的。
Yeah.
你可以选择加入。
You can opt based.
没错。
Yeah.
你可以选择加入，他们还会帮你协商任何医疗账单。
You can opt in, and they also help you negotiate any bill.
关于 Bayt 播客
Bayt 提供中文+原文双语音频和字幕，帮助你打破语言障碍，轻松听懂全球优质播客。