从Meta一线经理到Snapchat高级总监的3年职业历程

无论发生什么，你都绝不能解雇公司前15名工程师。

No matter what happens, you should never fire the first 15 engineers in the company.

我是荣岩。

This is Rong Yan.

他从Facebook的一线经理三年内晋升为Snapchat的高级总监，并分享了他一路学到的所有经验。

He grew from a frontline manager at Facebook to a senior director at Snapchat in three years and shared everything he learned along the way.

我从Facebook学到的一个非常关键的文化理念是，所有从事工程工作的人都必须具备技术背景。

A very critical cultural philosophy I learned from Facebook is that everyone who work on engineering need to be technical.

在Snapchat，他分享了与创始人兼CEO共事时的一些有趣心得。

At Snapchat, he shared interesting learnings working with the founder and CEO.

Evan对绩效的要求非常高，这让我想起了史蒂夫·乔布斯。

Evan have a really high bar for performance, and it reminds me of Steve Jobs.

他的部分成长经历是从频繁跳槽到在Square担任总监，然后你被直接推上了总监职位。

Part of his growth was from job hopping to a director role at Square, and then you were thrust into a director role.

你发现最大的差距是什么？

What were the biggest gaps that you saw?

有很多差距，但我看到的最大差距是

There's a lot of gaps, but the biggest gap I saw

这是完整的一期。

Here's the full episode.

我想聊聊你职业生涯的早期阶段，也就是你加入Facebook的时候。

I'd like to go into one of the first legs of your career, which is when you joined Facebook.

你加入Facebook的背后有什么故事？

What is the story behind you joining Facebook?

嗯。

Yeah.

我觉得这是一个有趣的故事。

So I I think that's an interesting story.

我的职业道路有点非传统。

My career path is a little bit nontraditional.

我是个博士。

I was a PhD.

我曾在科研领域工作了八年多。

I used to be in research world for more than eight years.

所以，我毕业后花了五年时间攻读博士学位，之后又在IBM做了三年研究科学家。

So and because after I graduate, I spent five years in PhD program, and then I spent another three years in IBM as a research scientist.

我的工作主要集中在计算机视觉和机器学习方面。

Mostly, it's focused on computer vision and machine learning.

对吧？

Right?

然后我开始意识到，像IBM研究或微软研究这样的工业研究模式，这种50%研究与50%工程的混合模式，可能难以持续。

And then I start to realize industrial research model, like IBM research or Microsoft research, with this kind of 50% mix between research and engineering, it's probably not going to be sustainable.

我必须在100%做研究或100%做工程之间做出选择，二选一。

I have to choose either 100% on research or 100% on engineering, one way or the others.

所以，那是在2009年左右，我开始反思这个问题。

So that's why that was back in the year of, like, 2009, I started to reflect on that.

于是我开始问自己：我究竟该走哪条路？

Then I started to question myself, okay, which path I should go?

我面前有三条路。

There are three paths in front of me.

一是我可以去某所大学当教职员工。

One is that I can be a faculty in some school.

事实上，当时我确实面试了几所顶尖学校。

In fact, I do an interview with some top school at that time.

或者我可以去金融工程公司担任量化开发员或量化交易员。

Or I can be a quant developer or quant trader in a financial engineering firm.

我也收到了一些顶级量化交易公司的录用通知。

I also have offers from some of the top quantitative trading firms.

或者我可以去像Facebook这样的软件工程公司。

Or I go to a software engineering company like Facebook.

所以当我深入思考时，我最初想成为一名软件工程师。

So when I was thinking deeper, first, I wanted to be software engineers.

我认为这才是能够创造出影响更多人事物的方式，而不是仅仅做交易。

I think that's the way that you can creating some things that will influence more people than just doing trading.

第二点是，我想去那些能让工程成为核心地位的地方。

The second thing is that I want to go to places that can make engineering to be the first class citizens.

我认为在金融界，工程始终是二等的。

I think in the financial world, engineering is always a second class.

它不是第一等的。

It's not a first class.

我可以成为一名教职人员。

I can be a faculty.

但作为一名教职人员，我认为影响力较小。

But being faculty, I think the impact is smaller.

因为你只能影响一所学校或某个社群的规模，而无法影响整个世界。

Because you can only impact the scale of a school or maybe the community, but not the entire world.

因此，那几年我下定决心，想要进入软件工程领域。

So that's why that was the years I make up my mind that I want to be in the software engineering world.

如果我想进入软件工程领域，我就想加入一家快速增长、有潜力影响大量人群的公司。

And if I want to be a software engineering world, I want to join a company that are fast growing and have the potentials to influence a lot of people.

我认为Facebook正符合我的标准。

And I think Facebook, it is the one that fits with my criteria.

所以我非常幸运，在Facebook快速发展的早期阶段就加入了他们，大概是2009年左右。

So that's why I'm lucky enough to be part of a Facebook during their fast growing years, like, in the early twenty ninth.

所以我认为在Facebook，你逐渐转向了管理岗位。

So I think at Facebook, you you transitioned into management.

我认为你职业生涯中最让我感兴趣的部分，是在之后两家公司——Square和Snapchat——的迅猛发展。

And I think the things in your career that I'm most interested in is at the subsequent two companies, at Square and at Snapchat, your career had explosive growth.

因为在Square，我看到你只待了一年多，就从一线经理晋升为总监。

Because at Square, I saw you were there for a little over a year, and you went from a frontline manager to a director.

你的团队有40多名工程师。

Your team was around 40 plus engineers.

所以我很好奇，想深入了解你是如何获得这个机会的，以及这种成长是如何发生的。

So I'm kinda curious to dig into how you got that opportunity and how that growth came.

是的。

Yeah.

我会在这里非常坦诚。

I'll be very transparent here.

事实上，当我加入Square时，我是带着总监职位的offer加入的。

In fact, like, when I joined Square, I was taking a director offer to join the Square.

哦，原来如此。

Oh, okay.

所以你加入了一个

So you signed up with a team that was

没错。

That's right.

已经具备总监规模的团队。

Already director size.

正是。

Exactly.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，当然了，Square是一家规模较小的公司，因此他们愿意给我机会以总监级别发挥作用。

So and, of course, Square is a smaller company, so that's why they are willing to give me the opportunity to perform at the director level.

我加入公司后，刚开始组建团队时，大约有二十五人。

After I joined the company, when I started the team, it's about twenty five people.

在我离开公司之前的一年里，我把团队扩展到了五十多人。

And then I grow the teams into 50 plus people in a year before I left the company.

所以，我确实花了很多时间来发展机器学习团队和数据科学基础设施团队，那是在Square的时候。

So I I indeed spent a lot of time to grow the machine learning teams and data science infrastructure teams, like, back in Square.

我认为这其实是一个非常有益的锻炼。

I think it's actually a very helpful exercise.

但有一件事我必须说，事实上，这也是我从自身经历中学到的一课：我从经理晋升为总监的过渡过程教会了我很多东西。

But one thing I do have to say that and in fact, this is one of the the lesson learned for myself, is that I do things like my transitions from managers to director teach me a lot of things.

我开始深入了解一线经理和总监之间的区别，以及为什么他们称之为总监。

I start to learn a lot about the difference between line managers and directors, and why they call it directors.

因为总监的职责是指导，而不是管理。

So because director, it's about directing instead of managing.

这真正开阔了我的眼界，让我明白了管理管理者与管理个人贡献者之间的正确方式有何不同。

So it really opens my mind about what's the right way to managing managers instead of managing ICs.

因此，你需要用完全不同的理念来做到这一点。

So you need to use a completely different philosophy to do that.

我花了一些时间来适应，但经过这次经历，我认为我在更高层次上成为了更好的管理者。

And it takes me some time to adjust to it, but after this exercise, I think I've become better managers at a different level.

是的。

Yeah.

我很好奇，因为你的职业发展如此迅速，我想知道是否存在任何技能缺口。

I'm I'm curious because you your career grew so quickly that I wonder if there were any skill gaps.

你从一线管理者直接被推到了总监职位。

You were you went from a frontline manager, and then you were thrust into a director role.

你发现最大的缺口是什么？

What were the biggest gaps that you saw?

没错。

Yep.

所以存在很多差距。

So the there's a lot of gaps.

但我看到的最大差距，还是要回到‘指导’这个词上。

But the biggest gap I saw, it's about back to the word directing.

当我刚进入总监角色时，我其实不明白总监和经理之间的区别。

When I first step into the director role, I actually don't understand the difference between director versus managers.

但当我开始实践后，我逐渐意识到，管理经理需要一套不同的技能。

But when I start to practice it, I start to realize, like, managing a managers require a different set of skill.

因为通常来说，一线经理最了解细节。

Because, like, typically, the line managers are the one that knows the detail the best.

与我在Facebook的经历不同，我从个人贡献者成长为经理，那时我是团队中最了解细节的人。

Unlike my Facebook experience, I grow from an IC to become a manager, I'm the one in the teams knows most of the details.

所以我一直把这一点作为管理他人的锚点。

So that's why I continue I I can continue to use that as the anchor points to managing other people.

因为我的团队中几乎所有人都比我晚加入。

Because almost most of the other people in my teams joined after me.

所以我是房间里资历最深的人。

So that's why I'm the senior people in the rooms.

但当你进入一个新环境时，你反而成了公司里资历最浅的人，却要领导那些在公司任职时间更长的资深员工。

But you start to go to a new environment, you become the more junior people in the company, but you're actually leading the more senior people in this in their tenures of the company.

他们资历更深。

They are more senior.

而你却在领导他们，而且他们对细节的了解比你更多。

And but you are leading them, and also they know more details than you.

那么，作为一位总监，我该如何真正为这些人提供价值呢？

Then what's the right way for me being a director positions to actually provide my values to those people?

这才是最有趣的部分。

That's the most interesting part of it.

因为我觉得我在前半年做得并不好。

Because I don't think I do well in the first half year.

一旦我表现不佳，他们可能会开始想：我为什么需要这一层管理呢？

And once I don't do well, they may start to just feel like, okay, why do I actually need this layer at all?

因为我没有为他们的日常生活增添任何价值。

Because I'm not adding any values to their daily life.

那时我开始反思。

So that was the time I start to reflect.

如果我成为他们与高层管理者之间的中间层，我应该为组织带来什么样的价值呢？

Is that if I'm becoming a middle layers between them and the higher level executive, what are the value that I should bring in for the organizations?

所以我认为，最终你所聚焦的，应该是高层次的思考、战略方向，以及你如何帮助整合跨部门的资源，来解决组织最棘手的问题。

So I think, like, what you end up landing on, it will be about, like, high level thinking, about strategical directions, about, like, the possibility that you can help to collect resource across different department about, like, solving the most difficult problem for the organizations.

所有这些都关乎这些方向。

It's all about those kinds of directions.

这也解释了领导与管理之间的区别。

And that's why it speak to the difference between directing and managing.

它不再仅仅是关于管理员工了。

So it's no longer simply about managing people anymore.

而是关于引领组织走向更美好的未来。

It's about directing organizations towards to a better positions in the futures.

所以，这意味著你需要以与以往完全不同的层次来运作。

So essentially, it means you need to operate at a very different level than what it used to be.

所以花了一些时间我才理解。

So it takes takes me some time to understand.

让你从最初表现不佳到适应总监角色的关键，在于你不再直接管理员工，而是更战略性地思考你所领导的团队。

So the thing that took you from maybe underperforming initially to fitting into the director role was you stepped away from directly managing people, and you thought more strategically about the the group and that you were leading.

没错。

Yep.

确实如此。

So that's totally the case.

还要多想想你的直接下属希望从你这里得到什么。

And also, like, put some more thought around what does your direct report was looking for from you.

当然，原领导之所以没有将任何现有领导者晋升到我的职位，肯定是有原因的。

So and there are some there's definitely reasons why the original leader choose not to promote any of the existing leader into my role.

相反，他们选择聘请其他人来担任这个职位。

Instead, they choose to hire another persons into that role.

这背后一定有原因。

There must be a reason behind that.

这意味着他们一定有需要改进的地方。

And this means that there must be an area for improvement for them.

作为领导者，我需要明确这一点，并理解清楚，好吧。

As a leader myself, then I need to make it clear and then need to understand that, okay.

我能做些什么来帮助他们从当前水平提升到下一个层次？

What I can do to help to grow that persons from their current levels to the next level?

缺失的是什么？

What's the missing pieces?

比如，我还能在哪些方面帮助他们？

Like, what other thing I can help them?

当我开始理解这一点时，就回到了我之前的类比，即把管理比作心理医生。

So and when I start to understand that, that going back going back to my analogy of, like, comparing management to psychological doctors.

对吧？

Right?

所以你会开始理解他们真正需要什么，然后我会调整自己的工作方向以契合这一点。

So you start to understand what they are looking for, and then you I will align my work towards that.

一旦你开始这么做，人们就会更加尊重你，因为他们明白你是真心帮助他们成长、迈向下一个阶段的。

And once you start to do that, then you start to get more respect from those people because they understand that you are here to help them to grow to the next level.

所以，是的，我认为这标志着我作为总监职业生涯的一个转折点。

So, yeah, I think that that's sort of a turning point for my director career.

我能想象，如果有人被聘用到比你更高的级别，这里会有一种心理影响。

I can imagine that there's a psychological effect here if someone gets hired a level above you.

你知道，也许这些人原本是希望获得这个职位的。

You know, maybe these people were hoping for that.

你遇到过类似的情况吗？

Did you deal with any incidents like that?

你是如何应对这种状况的？

And how do you how do you handle that kind of situation?

首先，是的，我确实遇到过这种情况，因为这是人性的一部分。

So first, yeah, I definitely dealt with that Because it's a it's a human nature things.

每个人都想得到晋升，每个人都想知道为什么自己没有被提拔。

Everyone want to get promoted, and everyone will questions why they are not the one that can promote it.

因此，处理这种情况的方法是真正帮助他们理解，我的到来实际上对他们职业生涯而言是更好的局面，而不是负面的。

So that's why the way to handle that is to really help them to understand that with me coming in, it's actually much better situation for them in terms of their career instead of a negative.

在这种情况下，你需要找到你和直接下属之间的共同点。

And in that case, you need to find a common ground between you and your direct report.

你不是他们职业发展的阻碍，而是他们职业发展的推动者。

So you are not a blocker for their career instead, but you are actually a promoter for their career.

说实话，这一点是我成为总监半年后才意识到的。

Then this is actually one thing I only realized half years after I become the director, to be honest.

但在我这样做了之后，我认为我在未来的职业生涯中表现得更好了。

So but after I do that, I think I'm doing much better in my following career in the future.

每当我到一个新的地方，我做的第一件事就是建立信任基础。

It's that every single time when I go to new places, the number one thing I would do is to build a trust layer.

我非常推荐一本叫《团队的五大 dysfunction》的书。

And this is a place I really recommend a book called The Five Disfunctions of a Teams.

我认为这本书也让我学到了很多。

I think that book taught me a lot also.

我的意思是，这本书的核心观点之一是，一个成功团队最基础的层面是信任。

I mean, basically, the book one of the key narratives for that book is about the most foundational layer for a successful team, it is trust.

所有其他事情都建立在信任之上。

Everything building on top of trust.

所以，我首先会做的就是与这个人建立信任关系。

So that's the first things I would do, is to build up a trust relationships with that person.

他需要相信我在这里是为了帮助他。

So he needs to trust me that I'm here to help him.

然后，我需要开始执行一些行动，让他理解这一点。

Then I need to start to execute a few things to make him understand that.

此外，你还需要帮助他解决那些他自己无法解决的问题。

So and also, you need to help him to unblock some of the things that he cannot unblock himself.

这也体现了你作为上级管理层对团队成员的价值。

That also shows the value of you being an upper management to help your people.

所以我认为这变得越来越重要，对于打造一个成功的团队来说。

So I think that become a more and more important things, like so, for for building a successful team.

你提到你是被聘为总监的。

You mentioned that you were hired in as a director.

这让我想到，假设你是一个很有抱负的经理，你在思考如何成长和晋升。

So that makes me think about let's say you are a really ambitious manager, and you're thinking about how can you grow and level.

一方面，你可以留在原地，努力争取晋升；另一方面，也可以选择跳槽。

And, you know, there's the approach of staying somewhere, trying to get promoted, and then there's also job hopping.

你认为跳槽是经理层级跃升的最佳方式吗？

Do you think that job hopping is kind of the best way to to jump up tiers as a manager?

我从不考虑跳槽。

I never think about job hopping.

这是晋升到管理层的最佳途径。

It's the best way to jump up to the managers.

是的。

Yeah.

事实上，当我提到Facebook时，我很多旧团队成员都已经身处高位了。

In fact, even when I talk about Facebook, a lot of my old team members are already in a very high level.

我的一些朋友已经是Facebook的工程副总裁了。

Some of my friends are already VP of engineering in Facebook.

所以我不认为跳槽总是或一定是实现这一目标的唯一或正确方式。

So that's why I don't think job hopping is the always the the only way or the right way to do it.

但我可以跟你谈谈，我为什么选择这样做。

But I can speak to you, like, why I choose to do that.

我的理念是围绕北极星目标。

My philosophy is about North Star.

我心中始终有一个北极星目标，那就是有朝一日成为一家人工智能公司的首席技术官。

I always have a North Star goal in my mind It's that I want to become a CTO at some point for an AI company.

你做到了。

You did it.

所以

So

谢谢。

Thank you.

嗯。

Yeah.

所以，即使在我获得机器学习博士学位之后，这个北极星目标依然存在。

So that that has been a North Star goal even, like, after I get my PhD degree for for machine learning.

我一直想象着，总有一天，人工智能可以成为一个独立的产业。

I have been imagining a world at some point that AI can become a business by itself.

但当我毕业时，世界还不是这样的。

But when I when I graduated, the world is not like that.

我的意思是，人工智能始终只是放大器。

I mean, AI is just always amplifiers.

它只是大公司中的一个组成部分，能让业务变得更好。

It's just like a component in a bigger company who can make the business better.

这很有趣，但这并不是最有趣的部分。

That's interesting, but that's not the most interesting part of it.

所以，当我下定决心将此作为我的北极星目标时，我就想为此制定一个计划。

So that's why when I start to make up my mind that this is my North Star goal, then I want to make a plan out of it.

我的计划是，如果我想成为CTO，我还有很多薄弱环节，尤其是在我从研究生涯转型之后。

My plan is that if I want to become a CTO, I have a lot of a weak link for that, especially when I coming after my research career.

我知道，从研究科学家到CTO之间存在着巨大的差距。

I know from being a research scientist to be a CTO, there's a lot of gap.

所以我意识到了自己的不足。

So I recognize my gap.

主要是对行业以及行业如何运作缺乏了解。

It's about not understanding the industry, how industry operate.

不了解基础设施和后端。

Don't understanding infrastructure and back end.

不了解前端和产品。

Don't understand front end than products.

也不了解很多其他方面。

And don't understand, like, many other things.

所以这就是为什么我需要选择一条能帮助我逐步填补这些差距的职业道路。

So that's why I need to choose my career to help me to fill in those gap step by step.

事实上，这里有个故事。

And in fact, here's a story.

在我加入Snapchat之前，我一直从事数据和机器学习相关的工作。

Before I joined Snapchat, I'm always a data and machine learning process.

我所有的职位都与数据和机器学习有关。

All of my position was related to data and machine learning.

当我加入Snapchat时，面前有两个选择。

And when I joined Snapchat, there are two options in front of me.

要么我选择成为数据部门的总监，要么选择成为相机部门的总监，而相机正是Snapchat的首页功能。

Either I choose to become the director of data, or I choose to become director of camera, which is the first page of Snapchat.

我有意选择了成为相机部门的总监，并且需要从零开始学习iOS和Android编程。

I intentionally choose to become the director of camera, And I need to learn about iOS and Android programming from scratch.

我实实在在花了大约两个月时间学习iOS编程。

I literally spent, like, two months learning about iOS programming.

我认为这是一个非常不寻常的选择，因为我觉得大多数人会直接选择数据总监，因为那是最稳妥的选择。

Again, I think this is a very unconventional choices because I believe most people would just, like, go with director of data because that's the that's the most comfortable selection you can make.

但我的指南针是努力成为一名CTO。

But my North Star is trying to become a CTO.

我认为要成为CTO，必须理解产品。

I think in order to become a CTO, need to understand product.

我需要了解如何与产品经理和产品设计师合作。

I need to understand working with product managers and product designer.

而且，如果你只是遵循公司内传统的职业发展路径，真的很难做到这一点。

And arguably, if you just, like, follow your traditional career progression within a company, it's really hard to do that.

在那个时候，很难从后端团队跳到更面向产品的团队。

It's really hard to jump from a back end team to a more product facing teams at that point.

所以我认为，这应该被视为一个绝佳的机会，去挑战自己，尝试不同的路径，一步步接近我最终想要的目标。

So I think that I should take that as a very great opportunity to challenge myself, to run something different, and to inch towards towards my what I'm looking for at the end.

我很高兴我做出了这个选择。

So and I'm glad that I make that choice.

事实上，我在Snapchat的前两年可能是我职业生涯中最幸福的时期，因为我非常享受那段时光。

In fact, the first two years in Snapchat is probably one of the happiest periods for my career because I really enjoyed that period.

我正在学习新东西。

I'm learning new things.

我发现自己的知识库每天都在不断增长。

I find that myself was developing my knowledge base every single day.

这就是为什么我在职业生涯的不同阶段会做出不同的选择。

And I that's the reasons why I was, like, choosing different things at different stage of my career.

你作为一名工程领导者，曾在非常不同的领域工作过。

You worked in very different domains in as an engineering leader.

我很好奇，你所管理的团队的具体细节有多重要？

And I was curious, how much do the details of the teams that you manage matter?

这是我从Facebook学到的一个非常重要的文化理念。

This is a very critical cultural philosophy I learned from Facebook.

所有从事工程工作的人必须具备技术能力。

It's that everyone who work on engineering need to be technical.

我仍然记得Facebook曾经有一个为期六周的集训流程。

I still remember the times that, like, Facebook have this six weeks boot camp process.

我不知道他们现在是否还保留这个流程。

I don't know whether they still have it right now.

但当时，每个人在选择团队之前都必须参加这六周的集训。

So but when back in times, everyone need to go into the six week boot camp process before they can choose a Teams.

对吧？

Right?

我记得有一位副总裁级别的新员工就坐在我旁边。

And I remember there's a VP level hires sitting right next to me.

她和我一样，也在找bug、修bug、提交代码请求。

And she's just, like, doing the same thing as what I was doing, like finding bugs, fixing bugs, writing pull requests.

她就这样持续了整整六周。

She was doing that for six week.

这让我很震惊，因为我来自IBM。

That actually shocks me because I come from IBM.

比如，IBM的副总裁再也不会亲自写代码了。

Like, IBM's VP never called anymore.

我的意思是，我觉得他们可能最后只写PPT而已。

I mean, I don't even they probably only write PPTs at the end, I think.

但这件事后来深深印在我心里：我相信，保持技术能力和数据驱动对我们的未来成功至关重要。

But this is one thing that was deeply planning in my heart afterwards, is that I believe being technical, being data driven, it's a very critical thing for us to success in the future.

这也是为什么我最近越来越喜欢深入细节的原因之一。

And that's also part of the reasons why I also love to get into detail these days.

所以我现在仍然在写代码。

So I write I still write codes.

我仍然在审查代码。

I still review codes.

比如现在，我每周至少会写两三段代码。

Like, right now, I at least write two or three paragraphs every single week.

我这个人如果不清楚细节，就不擅长主动发言。

I'm also the kind of person I'm not really good at speaking up if I don't know the details.

我想确保自己理解了所有细节，这样我就知道不是在凭空捏造，从而能为团队做出最佳的战略决策。

I want to make sure that I understand the details so that I know I'm not making things up, so that I can make the best strategic decisions for the teams.

不过，你是怎么找到这个平衡的呢？

How how do you find that balance, though?

因为即使作为个体贡献者，也需要在某种程度上平衡，开始降低低杠杆任务，把它们委派出去以扩大自己的影响力，只专注于最关键的事情。

Because even as an IC, there is some balance where you start to, you know, lower leverage tasks, you start offloading them to scale yourself, and you only take on the very critical things.

我简直无法想象，作为CTO或总监，到底还有什么细节工作值得亲自去做。

I can't even imagine, like, as a CTO or director, what even detailed work is worth picking up.

我认为，扩大规模的最佳方式就是始终回归第一性原理。

I think the the best way to scale this is to always going back to your first principle.

所以每周一开始，我都会问自己：这周我必须完成的前三件事是什么？

So at the beginning of every single week, I will ask myself, what are the top three things I need to achieve?

只专注于那三件最重要的事。

Only focus on those top three things.

其他所有事情都次要一些。

And then every everything else is less important.

所以，有时这三件最重要的事中会有一件是开发工作，掌握细节。

So and sometimes one of those top three things will be development, getting the details.

所以我认为这是其中非常关键的一部分。

So I think that's very critical part of it.

这并不是说每一周你都必须做同样的事情。

It's not so that's why I'm not saying that every single week, you need to do the same things.

但每一周，你都需要为你的工作设定主题。

But every single week, you need to have themes for your work.

你会自然地理解每个主题如何为你的北极星目标带来最大的回报。

And you naturally understand how each themes is going to bring the best bang for the buck for your North Star goal.

因此你需要不断调整自己，使其朝着这个方向靠拢。

So that's why you keep recalibrating yourself towards it.

我认为这是最佳的扩展方式。

And I think this is the best way to scale.

因为最终，每个人每天只有八小时的工作时间，也许十小时或十二小时，仅此而已。

Because, like, at the end, every every every people only have eight hour working time or maybe ten or twelve working time every single day, but that's it.

所以你不可能有更多的时间。

So you you can't have more.

我认为最优秀的人并不是单纯花更多时间，而是非常擅长分配自己的时间。

I think the best people not really just like spending more time, but they're really good at allocating their time.

通过理解每个方向的优先级，并在每个优先事项上投入合适的时间。

And by understanding the priority of each directions and spending right time at each priorities.

我知道Snapchat在洛杉矶，这和硅谷非常不同。

I understand that Snapchat is in Los Angeles, which is, you know, very different from Silicon Valley.

我很好奇。

I'm curious.

你有没有注意到洛杉矶和硅谷之间的文化差异很大？

Did you notice a big difference in the cultures in LA versus Silicon Valley?

是的。

Yeah.

所以我认为，对于Snapchat来说，其文化实际上与湾区公司非常相似。

So I think specific for Snapchat, the culture is actually very similar to Bay Area company.

事实上，当我加入Snapchat时，我发现它的文化与Facebook的文化出奇地相似。

And in fact, when I joined Snapchat, I found it surprisingly similar to Facebook's culture.

这是一个快速前进、打破常规、大胆尝试的地方，完成比完美更重要。

It's all it's a moving fast places, break things, guessing, done done is better than perfect.

所有这些特点都适用于Facebook和Snapchat。

I all those things apply to both Facebook and Snapchat.

部分原因是，Snapchat的许多早期员工来自湾区或西雅图。

And partly because a lot of early people coming from Snapchat or working in Snapchat, they come from Bay Area or Seattle.

因此，Snapchat建立了一种非常相似的文化。

So that's why Snapchat has built a culture very similar to that.

但广义上说，我认为洛杉矶比硅谷更加多元化。

But broadly speaking, I think LA is a way more diverse space than Silicon Valley.

我仍然记得，当我住在湾区时，我在那里生活了五六年。

I still remember when I was living in Bay Area, I lived there for five, six years.

每当我参加活动或聚餐时，你会发现餐桌上人们谈论的话题几乎总是相同的：科技、股票、初创公司。

Whenever I go to a event or a dinner, it's like, you can find that, like, most of the topic people talk about on the dinner table, tech, stock, startups, the topic are almost always the same.

所以这正是让硅谷成名的原因，但也意味着很多人都在做同样的事情。

So because that's that bring Bay Area to fame, but also means that a lot of people was working on the same things.

但在洛杉矶，你会感受到完全不同的氛围。

But in Los Angeles, you get very different vibe.

你能接触到各种各样的人。

You get access to a lot of different kind of people.

例如，在我的社区里，我的一个邻居是一名医生。

For example, in my neighborhood, one of my neighbor, it's a it's a doctor.

他是一名内科医生。

It's a medical doctor.

而另一位邻居实际上是一位密码学家。

And another neighbor, it's actually a cryptographer.

他为迈克尔·杰克逊工作。

It's for Michael Jackson's.

我觉得，如果我还在旧金山，根本不可能接触到这样的人。

I think that I can never get access to those kind of people when I was back in San Francisco.

这确实帮助你拓宽了硅谷之外的视野。

It really help you to broaden your views outside Silicon Valley.

你开始意识到，我们的许多用户其实并不只是科技人士或AI从业者。

You start to understand that, oh, it turns out a lot of our people, a lot of our users are not just techy, are not just AI people.

相反，还有很多普通人也能从你的产品中受益。

Instead, there's a lot of common persons who can still benefit from your product.

这能帮助你设身处地地理解，在他们的场景下，你的产品应该如何设计。

And it help you to put yourself into their shoes to understand, like, how your product should be built in their cases.

是的。

Yeah.

我看到你的团队在Snapchat发展到了250名工程师的规模。

I saw your team grew to the size of 250 engineers at Snapchat.

是什么推动了这种增长？

What drove that growth?

我认为这种增长是自然发生的，因为Snapchat随着时间推移变得越来越大。

I think we grow that organically in the sense that, like, Snapchat become a bigger company over times.

我记得我刚加入Snapchat时，整个公司只有100人。

I remember when I first joined Snapchat, the whole company only had 100 people.

我可能是第100名员工。

I'm probably the one hundredth employees.

Snapchat发展到了大约3000名员工的规模。

Snapchat grow into about 3,000 employee interviews.

所以，我的团队规模也随着公司整体的增长同步扩大了。

So that's why, like, my team size also grew together with that overall company growth at the same time.

当然，招聘方面投入了大量努力，特别感谢招聘团队。

Of course, there's a lot of efforts put into recruiting, like, really shout out to the recruiting teams.

我的意思是，为了实现这一切，面试官们也付出了很多努力。

I mean, a lot of efforts, like, to our interviewers for making that happens.

但总体而言，我认为，对于一家估值数十亿美元的公司来说，当时拥有这样的规模是合理的。

But overall, I think, like, for a size of a company that worth, like, tens of billion dollar, I think that's a reasonable size of a company that you can you want to build at that time.

我们从这个过程中学到了很多，我一直称这段时期为快速增长中的痛苦阶段。

We do learn a lot from that process, and this is what I always call a painful period for fast growing.

你会很快意识到，一家100人公司的文化与一家3000人公司的文化会截然不同。

You will quickly realize the cultures that you want for a 100 people company is going to be very different from my culture for 3,000 people company.

你会看到各种不同的文化以积极的方式相互碰撞。

You will see a lot of different sort of cultures start to clash with each other in a good way.

所以每次当你团队规模翻倍时，几乎就像是在当时建立一家全新的公司。

So that's why every single time when you double your team, you're almost like you're building a new company at that time.

这是领导层必须非常坚韧、并能迅速适应新环境的时期。

And this is the period that the leadership has to be very resilient, and we need to be very adaptive to the new environment.

不能总是固守某一件事，说：‘好吧，就这样了。’

Just cannot always just hold on to one thing to say, okay.

我不会改变这一点。

I'm not going to change that.

事实上，情况不同了，因为我们现在正在打造一家全新的公司。

Like, in fact, that's different because we are building a very new company now.

我们已经是一家完全不同的公司了。

We are a very different company.

我们知道你用一种新的方式来思考问题。

We knew you I use new way to think about the problems.

是的。

So yeah.

但这确实帮助我成长，让我看到如何将一个小团队发展成一个大团队。

But that also really helped me to grow to seeing how you can grow a much smaller team to a much bigger team.

要实现这一点，你需要经历什么样的过程？

What kind of a process you need to go through to make it happen?

作为Snapchat的高级总监，我猜你可能和埃文·斯皮格尔有过一些接触。

As a senior director at Snapchat, I imagine you might have had some proximity to Evan Spiegel.

你和他共事时有什么故事吗？是什么让他如此高效？

Do you have any stories working with him and what made him effective?

我们确实能直接接触到埃文。

We do have direct access to Evan.

事实上，我曾和埃文在几个项目上紧密合作。

So in fact, I worked pretty closely with Evan, like, for a few projects.

我非常欣赏Evan作为领导者的风格。

I really like Evan as a leader.

事实上，当你和Evan共事时，有两件事特别让我印象深刻。

So in fact, the two things really strike my mind, like when you work with Evan.

Evan对绩效的要求非常高。

Evan have a really high bar for performance.

他甚至能注意到像素级别的细节，这让我想起了史蒂夫·乔布斯。

So and he spies even at the pixel level, and it reminds me of Steve Jobs.

比如在我们的产品评审中，当我们给他演示时，他会直接指出像素级的问题，并要求我们修改。

So and then, basically, for example, in our product review, if we show him a demo, he will actually point out pixel level issues and ask us to fix.

所以有时候我会说，如果我们要做演示，就得做一个随时可展示的演示，而不是普通的演示。

So that's why sometimes I would say that, okay, if we're building a demo, we say you need to build an ever ready demo, not a normal demo.

但这正是他能在打造优秀产品方面取得巨大成功的原因。

But that really helped him to be very successful in terms of, like, building a great product.

这正是他最擅长的地方。

That's what he's really good at.

第二点是，我认为他非常重视与工程师们的个人联系。

Second thing is that I think he really care about personal connections, especially with the engineers.

比如，他真的信守承诺，并且重视工程师的价值。

Like, he really keep his promise, and he appreciate the value of engineerings.

我清楚地记得一件事：他曾告诉我们的某位领导者，无论发生什么，都绝不能解雇公司的前15名工程师，因为他们是公司的创始成员。

So one thing I remember very clearly is that, like, he actually told one of our leaders that no matter what happens, you should never fire the first 15 engineers in the company because they are the founding member for the company.

Snapchat 最初是在一个叫‘蓝屋’的地方起步的。

Snapchat was, like, start in a in a place that's called Blue House.

那实际上是一座位于威尼斯海滩的小房子。

It's actually a very small house back in Venice Beach.

由于公司迅速成长扩张，他们不再能继续在这么小的地方工作。

And then because the company is growing, expanding very quickly, so that's why they they no longer working in that small places.

但四年后，也就是2017年，他们又把那栋房子买了回来。

But after four years, I think it's 2017, like, bought their house back.

然后他开始在房子里重新举办董事会会议。

And then he start hosting the board meeting back in the house.

所以你可以看到，他真的非常重视这种联系。

So you can see he's really deeply care about this kind of connections.

这种个人关系。

This, like, personal relationships.

这也可能解释了为什么他试图打造Snapchat——本质上，它是一种帮助人们建立更亲密联系、促进彼此交流的工具。

And that also probably explain why he was trying to build Snapchat and which, inherently, it is a a tool that help people to build, like, more intimate connections and and creating, like, conversation with each other.

所以，是的，他在这方面真的是个很棒的人。

So, yeah, he's a he's a really good person for that.

你知道吗，你离开Snapchat后，我看到你加入了一系列初创公司。

You know, after you left Snapchat, I saw that you went to a series of startups.

既然你现在解释了你的总体北极星目标，一切现在都说得通了。

And now that you explained that you're overarching North Star, everything's now making sense.

所以现在，你似乎开始在越来越小的公司里承担更大的领导角色。

So now, at this point, it looks like you're starting to take on larger leadership roles at smaller and smaller companies.

我很好奇，这些规模的公司是如何进行招聘的？

I'm kinda curious, how does the recruiting work at these levels?

是的。

Yeah.

我得老实说，这可能有点自夸，但我从不主动寻找新工作。

I have to be honest on this one, maybe bragging a little bit, but I never look for a new job myself.

至少，我从不主动寻找新工作。

I never look for new jobs proactively, at least.

所以所有机会都是被动来的，要么来自个人关系，要么是猎头主动联系。

So it all it's all coming inbound, like from either personal connections or like some recruiter outreach.

在我的大多数情况下，我更倾向于去那些我有个人联系的地方。

And in most of my cases, I I would prefer to go to places that I actually have personal connection with.

因为这是我的基本信念。

Because this is this is my fundamental belief.

我的基本信念是，无论我去哪里，都会经历上升期和下降期。

My fundamental belief is that no matter where I'm going to, I'm going to go through up cycle and down cycle.

公司会有表现良好的时期，也会有表现不佳的时期。

There will be a period the company do well, and there will be a period the company will not do well.

我待过的几乎所有公司都是这样，比如Facebook、Square、Snapchat之类的。

And this is true for almost all company I've been to, like Facebook and Square, Snapchat, and, like, things like that.

对吧？

Right?

所以我不只想在公司上升期与公司共同成长，也想在公司下行期与公司并肩前行。

So I want to be not only I can grow with the company during the up cycle, but I also wanna grow with the company during the down cycle.

但为了度过下行期，我希望和我喜欢、思想相通的人一起工作，这样我们才能作为一个团队共同应对。

But in order to go through a down cycle, I want to work with persons that I like, and I can think alike with them so that we can all working together as a team to go through that.

这就是为什么我觉得，人际关系在这些决定中非常重要。

And that's why I really feel like personal connection is a big part of it for their decisions.

现实是，现在对工程师来说是个好时机，因为我几乎每周都会收到不同职位的招聘邮件。

And the reality is that, like, it's a it's a good time for engineerings in the sense that, like, I keep getting recruiting email almost every single week, like, for different positions.

但我大多数邮件都忽略了。

But I ignore majority of those email.

但如果邮件是通过人际关系推荐的，我就会认真评估。

But if it's a things come through a personal connections, I evaluate way more.