富人如何借贷比特币而无需出售 | Shehzan Maredia

大家好，我是安东尼·庞普利亚诺，很多人叫我Pomp。你们正在收听的是Pomp播客，这是我为了寻找世界上最有意思的人，与他们共处数小时，通过提问来学习的过程。如果你能在你喜欢的音频平台上订阅这个节目，在YouTube上观看剧集，并向你的朋友和家人推荐这个播客，那对我来说意义重大。

What's up, everyone? This is Anthony Pompliano. Many of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp podcast, which is my effort to find the most interesting people in the world and sit with them for hours while I ask questions in an effort to learn. So it would mean the world to me if you would subscribe to the show on your favorite audio platform, watch episodes on YouTube, and tell your friends and family about the podcast.

我的目标是帮助数百万人向世界上最有趣的人学习。那么，让我们开始今天的节目吧。

My goal is to help millions learn from the world's most interesting people. So let's get into today's episode.

安东尼·庞普利亚诺经营着Pomp投资公司。他和播客嘉宾的所有观点仅代表其个人意见，并不反映Pomp投资公司的观点。你不应将Pomp或其嘉宾表达的任何意见视为进行特定投资或遵循特定策略的具体诱导，而仅应视为其个人观点的表达。本播客仅供信息参考。

Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

我认为比特币的真正价值在于它的简单性。你只需囤积比特币，保存它，永不卖出，然后通过抵押借款来资助那些能提升你生活质量的开销。这让金融变得极其简单。

I think the the real value of Bitcoin is it's so simple. You just you stock Bitcoin, you save it, you never sell it, and you just buy a borrow against it to fund just the purchases that make your quality of life better. And it it really makes finance so simple.

大家好，今天我们有一期精彩的节目，嘉宾是Lava的创始人Shazan Moradia。在这次对话中，我们将讨论每个人都想谈论的话题——富有的比特币持有者如何在不卖出比特币的情况下，享受生活、追求幸福并实现所有人生目标。每个囤积比特币的人都知道比特币的第一法则：不要卖出你的比特币。

What's going on, guys? Today, we got a great episode with Shazan Moradia. He is the founder of Lava. And in this conversation, we're gonna talk about what every single person wants to talk about, which is rich Bitcoiners trying to figure out how to live their life, enjoy happiness, and pursue all the things they want in their life without selling their Bitcoin. Everyone who stacks Bitcoin knows number one rule of Bitcoin, do not sell your Bitcoin.

Shazan将在这里解释那些真正富有的比特币持有者是如何实现这一点的——他们不出售比特币，却能过上想要的生活。他为此开发了大量产品，还分享了许多关于人们用比特币买房买车、度假娱乐的精彩故事。这正是比特币最终想要实现的——让人们获得财务安全和财务自由。Shazan将为我们详细讲解。

And Shazan is here to explain a bunch of ways that really rich Bitcoiners are actually accomplishing this, not selling their Bitcoin, but living the life they want to live. He's built a ton of products for them to do, but he also has tons of really cool stories about people buying houses and cars and going on vacations, doing all kinds of fun stuff. This is what Bitcoin is ultimately trying to do. They're trying to get to financial security and financial freedom. Shazan is here to explain it all to us.

下面是我与Shazan Meridian的对话。伙计们，我对这次对话感到非常兴奋。你知道，我在比特币世界观察到的一个重要现象是，我们有一类被称为高净值比特币持有者的人群，他们基本上已经赚取了巨额的法币财富。

Here's my conversation with Shazan Meridian. Alright, guys. I'm super excited about this conversation. You know, one of the big things that I see happening in the Bitcoin world is that we have something called a high net worth Bitcoin. These are basically people who have made an enormous amount of paper money.

他们持有大量比特币。比特币价值大幅上涨。按美元计算，这些比特币有时价值数百万、数千万、数亿甚至数十亿美元。但他们不想过僧侣般的生活，不愿隐居山林与世无争。

They've got a lot of Bitcoin. Bitcoin is appreciated significantly. In dollar terms, this Bitcoin is worth sometimes millions, tens of millions, hundreds of millions, even billions of dollars. But they don't want to live like a monk. They don't want to just be up in the mountains with no material goods.

对吧？我常开玩笑说，比特币不能当饭吃，不能当房子住，也不能当椅子坐。你终究还是需要实实在在地生活。

Right? I always used to joke, you can't eat your Bitcoin. You can't live in your Bitcoin. You can't sit on your Bitcoin. You still need to be able to actually live your life.

尤其对于超级富豪来说，他们正在思考：我手握这么多纸面财富，但究竟该如何在生活中使用？实现超额财务回报的部分意义就在于能够享受它。这在科技行业尤为常见——比如OpenAI每次进行二次发行或股权转让时，旧金山湾区房价总会应声微涨。这些资金从公司流向员工口袋后，就会转化为房产、汽车或其他消费形式。

And especially for people who are hyper wealthy, they're trying to figure out, okay, I got all this paper money, but how do I actually go and use this in my life? Part of, you know, driving some sort of outsized financial return for yourself is being able to enjoy it. And we see this in tech in general. If you look at maybe an OpenAI, I always love seeing that whenever OpenAI does a secondary or a tender, all of a sudden home prices in San Francisco and the Bay Area, they all tick up a little bit. All that money goes from the company to the, employee's pocket, then it goes and it buys real estate or it buys cars or it goes and gets consumed in different ways.

因此今天我们要对话的团队，一直在深入研究这些高净值比特币持有者的核心需求：他们需要什么？问题解决方案是什么？如何实现我一直在尝试的目标——既能持有比特币永不抛售（比特币第一准则：永不卖出），

And so what we're going to do today is we're going to talk to a team that they've really been working hard on trying to figure out what is it that these high net worth Bitcoiners, what do they need? What are the solutions to their problems? How can you do something which I try to do? How do you basically hold your Bitcoin, never have to sell it? Rule number one of Bitcoin, never sell.

又能过上你认为自己值得拥有或向往的生活？既不愿坐拥比特币却过着清修生活，也不想抛售全部比特币换取物质享受、背离比特币的核心理念。这就是我们今天要探讨的主题。或许我们可以从描述这些高净值比特币持有者开始。

But also be able to live the life that you feel like you have either earned or you want to live. And so you don't want to have lots of Bitcoin, but live like a monk. And you also don't want to sell all of your Bitcoin and then have a bunch of material goods, give up on kind of the Bitcoin dream or the Bitcoin thesis. And so that's what we're going to talk about today. Maybe where we can start with the conversation is describe these high net worth Bitcoiners.

对吧？随着比特币价格持续攀升，这类人群数量呈倍数增长。但他们是谁？如何与比特币结缘？除了财务策略之外，他们的日常生活究竟是怎样的？

Right? These are multiplying in in number as Bitcoin goes higher and higher. But who are they? How did they come into the Bitcoin? And what exactly are they doing in their lives, you know, outside of any sort of financial strategy?

感谢邀请。那么

Well, thanks for having me on. So

很多比特币持有者是通过变卖家当积累比特币的，现在他们意识到比特币是最佳储蓄资产。但我们Lava常说，储蓄的意义不仅在于储蓄本身，更在于储蓄能带来的可能性。有趣的是，这些比特币玩家很多并非高收入人群，正因过去十年坚持用比特币储蓄，如今积累了巨额财富却尚未动用。当比特币突破10万美元后，他们开始思考如何用这笔钱实现梦想消费、提升生活质量。

a lot of these Bitcoiners, they accumulated their Bitcoin by selling their chairs, you know, and now they realize that Bitcoin is the best savings asset, but we always say at Lava, it's not just about saving, it's about what saving makes possible. Right? So what's really fascinating about a lot of these Bitcoiners is that they aren't actually necessarily extremely high income, but it's because they were saving in Bitcoin for the last decade that now they have so much wealth that is they haven't been able to tap into. And now that Bitcoin has appreciated past a 100 k, a lot of them, I felt like that was really the the price point where they were starting to look at, now how do I use this Bitcoin to make my dream purchases, to improve my quality of life?

这些人可能年收入从未达到数百万美元，但关键在于储蓄而非收入。他们把积蓄投入比特币，剩下的就交给比特币增值了。

So a lot of these guys, they may not have actually had, you know, millions and millions of dollars of income in a given year, but actually it was like, not so how much you make, but how much you save. Exactly. And that saving then just got put into Bitcoin, and then Bitcoin kind of did the work from there.

我从未见过收入如此之低却坐拥巨额财富的群体，比特币真正为他们创造了这种可能。他们做过最明智的财务决策就是坚持比特币储蓄。

I've never seen a group of users that had such low income, but such high wealth, and really Bitcoin is what created that for them. The best decision that they made financially was to just save in Bitcoin.

老兄，这让我太兴奋了。从历史角度看，过去人们必须追求超高收入才能致富，无论是作为工薪族还是创业者。但现在经济上解放了——你可以当老师，

Dude, that makes me so excited. Like, you know, if you really think in a weird way, historically it has been people had to go and drive really, really high income levels. Whether you did it as a W-two, or you did it as an entrepreneur, pretty much the only path that you had was you just had to get paid an enormous amount of money. But it is somewhat liberating, I guess, like economically to say to somebody, it doesn't matter. You can be a teacher.

当消防员或警察，从事任何职业，收入高低不重要。只要量入为出，把结余投入这种储蓄技术，就能实现资产负债表增长，为家庭创造财富。

You can be a firefighter or police officer. You can be any profession in the world. You can make a lot of money or not make a lot of money. As long as you live within your means, take the excess and put it into this savings technology, then all of a sudden you can drive the balance sheet side and really create wealth for you and your family.

没错，我们有个用户是年收入不到10万的教师，过去十年通过Lavas持续囤积比特币——他现在是

Exactly, one of our users is a teacher and makes, you know, less than 100 ks, but has been stocking Bitcoin over the last decade by using Lavas- He's a

个富有的老师。

rich teacher.

是啊，现在可能有数百万，我想比特币价值已超过1000万美元，这对一个收入与财富不匹配的人来说相当疯狂。他们通过Lava利用比特币换取了更好的房子，供养整个家庭甚至大家庭，还买了更好的车。这真的很酷，我认为这充分展示了储蓄对生活的巨大影响。

Yeah, has millions, I think, maybe it's more than 10,000,000 in Bitcoin now, which is pretty insane for someone whose income doesn't really match their wealth. And they've been able to tap into their Bitcoin using Lava to get a better house, to support their entire family, their extended family, even to get a better car. So it is really cool, and I think it really goes to show the impact saving can have on your life.

有位老师多年来一直将收入存入比特币，现在持有的比特币价值超过1000万美元。有趣的是戴夫·拉姆齐——我觉得他是个好人，帮助过很多人——但总被比特币爱好者批评，因为他不喜欢比特币。他每年或每隔几年会做调查，研究美国哪些职业最容易成为百万富翁。

So there's a teacher that for years has been just saving income and putting it into Bitcoin, now has more than $10,000,000 in Bitcoin. You know what's funny is Dave Ramsey, who, I think Dave is a, is a great guy. I think he's helped a ton of people. He gets a lot of, you know, hard time from the Bitcoiners because he doesn't like Bitcoin, but, he does this survey, I think it's every year or maybe every couple of years. And he basically looks at what are the professions that are most likely to become millionaires in America.

排名前五的职业之一竟然是教师？这有点惊人。全美教师平均年薪大概5万美元左右，你会想：一个年薪5万的人怎么做到的？

One of the top five professions is being a teacher. Really? Which is kind of shocking. Like the average pay for a teacher, I think it's like somewhere around 50 ks across the country. And so you're like, how does somebody who gets paid, you know, 50 ks?

重要原因在于文化层面——你见过教师开法拉利吗？戴劳力士吗？或者周末在夜店挥霍？当然没有。

And a huge reason is because culturally, like, have you ever seen a teacher drive a Ferrari? No. Or wear a Rolex, right? Or like, is that the club at, you know, on Friday and Saturday night, like wasting all their money? No, of course not.

他们量入为出。从性格角度看，选择教师职业的人天生没有挥霍的文化基因。奇怪的是他们反而有很高的储蓄率，经年累月就积累了财富。比特币就像给这个过程装了加速器。所以教师拥有1000万看似惊人，细想又没那么奇怪。

They live within their means. And from a personality standpoint, the people who become teachers, the cultural like mimetic nature is not to go spend a bunch of money. And so in a weird way, actually have very high savings rates and then they just do that over time and it builds up wealth. Bitcoin kind of just supercharges that. So like, it's weird that a teacher has $10,000,000 like that's kind of surprising, but at the same time, maybe it's not that weird.

确实，我从没这样思考过教师群体，但很有道理。我们有个用户收入也不高，从事建筑业，他用比特币抵押贷款买了房。现在房价高企，有趣的是很多持有未变现巨额财富的人成了优质房产买家。他因为收入不够，实际上无法获得心仪房子的传统按揭贷款。

Yeah, I didn't actually think about a teacher from that perspective, but it makes a lot of sense. And we've had users that are, you know, we have one of these users, he also doesn't make a lot of income. I think he's in like construction, and, you know, he borrowed against his Bitcoin to buy a house. And what's really interesting is now that home prices are so high, there's like a basket of people right now that have so much wealth that they haven't tapped into, and they're great buyers of real estate. And what he did is he actually can't qualify for a traditional mortgage for the house that he really wanted to buy because his income isn't there.

因为收入不达标，而且银行很可能不把比特币计入抵押资产。很多人不知道：当你用比特币占净资产很大比例去申请房贷时，银行会直接视作零资产。几年前我就遇到过，银行说'我们很重视您这位客户，但根据银行框架计算，您目前没有资产'。

Because the income is out there and also the bank probably doesn't count the Bitcoin towards the mortgage. So for those that don't know, if you've tried to go buy a house and you want to get a mortgage and you have an enormous amount of percentage basis of your net worth in Bitcoin, the bank basically tells you zero. Right? And I think I've told the story before that a couple of years ago, I had this happen where the bank basically came to me and they're like, hey, man, we love you as a client. According to our calculation, based on this bank framework, you don't have any money.

我当时就惊了：天啊，你这话什么意思？结果他们说：老兄，你手上一支公开股票都没有对吧？

And I was like, oh my god. What do you mean? And they were like, yeah, dude. You have no public equities. Right?

全是私募投资和比特币。这类资产根本没法作数。嗯。这确实促使我开始涉足公开市场——我需要能向银行展示的资产。现在情况稍有变化，因为银行已开始认可比特币和加密资产了。

Everything is private investments and Bitcoin. Like, we can't count that stuff. Mhmm. And so that was actually the impetus for me to start doing stuff in the public market was like, I need to be able to show the bank assets. Now it is changing a little bit because the banks are starting to be able to recognize Bitcoin and crypto assets.

确实。但我认为有相当多人在传统金融体系中有被排斥感。对，就像明明拥有财富却不被承认。

Yeah. But I do think there's a very large portion of people who kind of felt like outcast in the traditional financial system. Yeah. It's like, I have this wealth, but it doesn't count.

他亲口告诉我他有被放逐的感觉。真的吗？这个形容很准确。特别是...借助Lava能即时调用比特币资金后，他立刻套现全款购房——在当下市场，现金报价能获得10%甚至20%的折扣。

He literally told me that he felt like an outcast. Oh, really? That's a right word to say. And especially So, and one of the nice things about him being able to tap into his Bitcoin instantly with Lava was that he was able to take that cash right away and make a cash offer on his house. And in today's market, if you actually make a cash offer, you can get a 10 to maybe even a 20% discount on your purchase price.

他最终以折扣价买到了梦想中的房子。

And he was able to get a discount on his purchase price and buy his dream house.

好的，在讨论你们开发的产品之前，我想先聊聊这个策略——或许可以称之为财富秘籍：无论你已实现财务自由还是正在追求这个目标，记住'买入-借贷-持有'策略，对吧？这是富人的经典套路。先描述下传统世界里这个策略如何运作。本质上...

All right. So let's talk about, before we get to the product you guys have built, I think there's a strategy, which maybe we'll call a little bit of alpha for people who, whether you have wealth or you're aspiring to kind of reach financial security and financial freedom, buy, borrow, die, right? Like that is the quintessential strategy of rich people. Describe like how this strategy works in the traditional world. So basically the

金融领域真正的核心策略是：买入你认为最优质的储值资产——比如你我等很多人坚信的比特币。永远不要抛售比特币，正如你提到的比特币第一守则。卖出增值资产不仅会让你错失上涨空间，还会产生应税后果。这就是为什么富豪们几十年来一直在房地产和股票上这么操作，而现在比特币持有者也能如法炮制——毕竟比特币以50%的复利增长。如果能以5%利率用比特币抵押借款，你不仅能赚取利差，还避免了出售比特币的税务问题。

real, the main alpha in finance is you want to buy what you think is the best savings asset, which, you know, I think you and me and a lot of people believe is Bitcoin. You never wanna sell your Bitcoin. That's the you know, what you mentioned, the first rule of your Bitcoin is to never sell your Bitcoin. If you sell an appreciating asset, you lose exposure to its upside, and two, you have taxable consequences, which is why rich people, wealthy people have been doing this against real estate and equities for decades, and now Bitcoiners are able to do that too because Bitcoin is appreciating at, you know, 50% compounded. If you can borrow at 5% against your Bitcoin, not only do you capture that spread between the upside and the interest rate, you also don't face the taxable consequences of selling your Bitcoin.

因为历史上富人的做法是，比如说他们购买股票，持有标普500指数敞口，而不是卖出标普500头寸去买房子、车子或度假消费，他们只是以其作为抵押借款。借款时需要支付利息，但正如你所说，他们避开了税收，同时不必放弃资产敞口。我总爱用麦肯齐·贝索斯的例子来说明持有股权会怎样——你知道这事吗？

Because what rich people are historically doing is, let's say they buy equities, they have S and P 500 exposure, rather than sell the S and P 500 exposure to go and buy a house, a car, you know, spend it on vacation, whatever, is they just borrow against it. And when they borrow, they're paying some interest. But to your point, they're avoiding the taxes and then they don't have to give up the exposure. And, you know, I always go back to my favorite example of what happens when you have equity exposure is Mackenzie Bezos. You know about this?

麦肯齐·贝索斯。我该查查具体数字——离婚后她捐出了约25%的百亿身家，向各类事业捐赠了约70到90亿美元，但她现在的资产反而比离婚时更多。

Mackenzie Bezos. I should look up the exact number. She has donated post divorce. She got like 25% multibillionaire. She's donated something like 7 or $9,000,000,000 to different causes, but she has more money today than she had at the time of divorce.

真的吗？即便她已经捐出了大概80到100亿美元？她借款了吗？甚至不需要借——亚马逊股票增值速度比她捐款速度还快。

Really? Even though she's given away, like, you know, whatever, 8 to $10,000,000,000. She's borrowed to? Not even borrowed. It's just that Amazon stock has appreciated at a faster rate than she can give away the money.

对吧？她简直就像在烧钱玩。她捐赠的一些项目方向很疯狂是吧？但亚马逊股价还在持续上涨。

Right? So she's literally just like, you know, I don't know, lighting it on fire. Like some of the colors she's given to is crazy. Right? But Amazon stock continues to appreciate.

同理，如果你用比特币、房地产等资产抵押借款，而这些资产的增值速度超过你的借款利率，吊诡的是你反而能赚得更多。

So same thing here is if you're borrowing and this stock, the Bitcoin, the real estate, whatever the thing is, continues to appreciate faster than the rate that you're borrowing at, in a weird way, you still have, you know, kind of come out on top.

确实。我们一位用户说过一个我从未想到的观点：他希望自己的利益与比特币上涨完全绑定。他说借款固然划算，但更重要的是如果卖出比特币后币价暴涨，他不想后悔得捶胸顿足。所以对他来说，借款不仅是财务决策，更是为了与比特币的成功保持同步，获得心理上的安宁。

Yeah. One thing one of our users told me that I hadn't thought about before was he wanted to feel really aligned with Bitcoin's upside, and he said, yes, it financially made sense for me to borrow, but the other thing was he didn't want to feel salty if he had sold his Bitcoin and Bitcoin started to appreciate. So he was like, I knew that for my own peace of mind, that borrowing would keep me still aligned with Bitcoin's success. So it wasn't just the financial decision for him. It was also just wanting to feel aligned with the market and the upside of Bitcoin.

本期节目由Simple Mining赞助播出。你想过挖比特币吗？作为矿工，我过去几个月使用Simple Mining的体验堪称完美——可自选矿池，比特币直接打入钱包。这家爱荷华州锡达福尔斯的企业为个人爱好者到大矿场提供顶级白手套服务。

Today's episode is brought to you by Simple Mining. Have you ever been interested in mining Bitcoin? As a miner myself, I've been using Simple Mining for the past few months, and the experience has been nothing short of seamless. I mine with the pool of my choice, and the Bitcoin is sent directly to my wallet. Simple Mining, which is based in Cedar Falls, Iowa, offers a premium white glove service designed for everyone from individual enthusiasts to large scale miners.

他们已运营四年，目前管理着超过20,000台比特币矿机，包括我的设备。得益于丰富的风能资源，其电力65%以上来自可再生能源。他们不仅通过顶级托管和现场维修服务简化挖矿流程，还通过企业化运营帮助您获得财务收益。该方案提供100%的折旧优惠以优化投资回报率。您是否曾为矿机维护问题担忧过？

They've been in business for four years and currently operate more than 20,000 Bitcoin miners, including mine. Their electricity is over 65% renewable, thanks to the abundance of wind energy. Not only do they simplify mining with their top notch hosting and on-site repair services, but they also help you benefit financially by running your operations as a business. This approach offers 100% bonus depreciation to optimize the profitability of your investment. Do you ever worry about the completion of maintaining your mining equipment?

这方面他们也考虑周全。前12个月所有维修费用全包，若遇到停机情况还会给予补偿。如果矿机在当前算力下无利可图，可随时暂停且无需罚金。当您需要升级或调整设备时，其专属交易市场提供便捷的二手设备转售渠道。

They've got you covered there too. For the first twelve months, all repairs are included at no extra cost. If you experience any downtime, they'll credit you for it as well. And if your miners aren't profitable at the amount, simply pause them with no penalties. When you're ready to upgrade or adjust your setup, their exclusive marketplace provides a seamless way to resell your equipment.

加入我和众多满意矿工的行列，一起体验简化的比特币挖矿之旅。您今天就可以通过7天矿机试用开始体验。立即访问simplemining.i0/pump，就是simplemining.i0/pump。Simple Mining，让一切变简单。

Join me and many satisfied miners who have simplified their Bitcoin mining journey. You can even get started today with the seven day miner trial. Visit simplemining.i0/pump to get started today. That's simplemining.i0/pump to get started today. With Simple Mining, they make it simple.

好的。我们来聊聊你们为这类用户开发的两款产品。持有比特币的人需要流动性，既不想出售又想保持比特币持仓。先说说非信贷产品，就是比较传统的借贷模式，具体如何运作？

Alright. So let's talk about you guys have built two different products for this specific type of user. So people who have Bitcoin, they want liquidity, they don't want to sell, they want to stay aligned with Bitcoin. Let's talk about the non line of credit product first, like just kind of more traditional borrowing. How does this work?

流程非常直观：您将比特币作为抵押物锁定，这些抵押品绝不会被再抵押，安全性可验证。您能立即获得抵押比特币价值50%的现金借款，全球实时到账，并附带利率。利息从借款日开始计算，原贷款产品要求...它类似于按揭贷款，需要按月还款。贷款期限由您在申请时确定。

So it's pretty straightforward. You take your Bitcoin and you lock it up as collateral. It's never rehypothecated, it's safe, we can prove to you that your collateral is safe, and you borrow 50% against the Bitcoin you put as cash, you get it fully instantly anywhere you are in the world, and there's an interest rate attached. So the interest starts occurring and you can The original loan product required you It was similar to a mortgage, it requires you to make monthly payments. There's a fixed term that you decide on when you initiate the loan.

在整个贷款期间您需按月还款，到期后可选择全额偿还或延期。

And so throughout the loan, you're making monthly payments, and at the end of the loan, you'll repay your loan in full, or you can extend your loan.

明白了。假设某人持有价值10万美元的比特币取个整数。我有10万美元比特币，就能抵押借出5万

Okay. So let's just say that somebody's got a $100,000 worth of Bitcoin for a round number. So I got a $100,000 of Bitcoin, I can borrow 50,000 against

正是如此。

it. Exactly.

我支付的利率是多少？5%？5%到10%？好的。假设我有10万比特币，借了5万，根据各种因素，我需要支付5%到10%的利息。你们需要对借款人（我）进行信用评估吗？

What is the interest rate that I'm paying on that? Five percent? Five to 10% Okay. In the original So let's say I got a 100,000 of Bitcoin, I borrow 50,000, I got to pay somewhere between five to 10%, depending on a whole bunch of factors. Do you have to underwrite me as a borrower?

不需要？还是你们只评估我抵押的比特币数量？

No. Or you just underwrite how much Bitcoin I'm giving you? The,

人们对此反应强烈——几乎所有通过Lava抵押比特币的用户都会发消息给我们说，这太疯狂了，居然完全不需要任何文件。整个过程只关乎我持有的比特币，与我个人情况毫无关系。

one of the things that people get really, everyone that bars against their Bitcoin with Lava, almost everyone texts me or messages us saying, this is crazy, like no documentation required at all. It was just about what I had, which was my Bitcoin, not about anything of me as a person.

这种机制创造了一种纯粹的能力主义，对吧？我深入研究过银行系统内的歧视问题——有时基于种族、宗教，或者单纯看你不顺眼。我们见证了多少事情被政治化。如果评估对象是借款人而非资产，就会引入人为偏见，导致某些人获得更优惠的利率。

I mean, the meritocracy that this creates, right? Where, you know, I've gone deep down the rabbit hole of the discrimination inside the banks, and sometimes it's based on race, religion, they just don't like you. We have seen how many things get politicized, etcetera. Like, if they have to underwrite the borrower rather than the assets, it introduces human bias. And therefore some people get better rates.

有些人利率更高，有些人能获得贷款，有些人则不能。而你们本质上是在说：无论你来自世界何处，身份如何，只要出示价值10万美元的比特币，我们就会给你贷款。

Some people get worse rates. Some people get better, you know, get the loans. Some people don't. Here, what you're essentially doing is you're saying, I think anywhere in the world, it doesn't matter who you are. If you show up with a $100,000 of Bitcoin, we will give you a loan against it.

这里有明确的利率和期限，可能是最接近能力主义的——

And there's a rate, there is a term to it, and it is probably the most like meritocratic,

你知道——这是个透明的流程。就像，这是我们的约束条件，我们会明确告知借款金额对应的利率，然后你就能直接拿到贷款。

you know- That's transparent process. Like, you know, this is the constraint, we're transparent about exactly what the rates are per the amount of borrow, and you just get the loan.

好的。如果有人要办理这个业务，我们用简单数字来说明。我准备申请5万美元的贷款，通常这种贷款的期限是多久？

Okay. So when somebody does this, let's just use easy numbers. I'm going to go ahead, I'm going to borrow $50,000 How long does that loan usually last for?

大多数人借款期限是一年。通常人们会在这个基础上延长贷款期限。

Most people borrow for a year. Usually people have been extending their loans past that

原来如此。所以到一年期满时，你只需要说‘再给我延期’就行。

as long. So when you get to the end of the year, you just say, hey, extend me longer.

正是这样。

Exactly.

明白了，我只需要继续支付5%的利息就行——这是年化5%按月支付对吧？只要持续还款就没问题。但如果我停止还款会怎样？

All right, and I just keep paying my 5% on a It's monthly 5% annualized, but I got monthly payments. And as long as I keep paying, I'm good. What happens if I stop paying?

如果停止还款，我们实际上不会终止你的贷款，但未付利息会持续累积。

If you stop paying your, we actually don't close your loan, but your interest just accrues more.

明白了。好的。所以你只是在不断累积。那么什么情况下我抵押的10万美元比特币会不再属于我？

Got it. Okay. So you're just accruing it more. What are the cases where the $100,000 of Bitcoin that I'm posting does not become mine anymore?

如果被清算的话。具体机制是怎样的？任何超额抵押贷款，贷款方之所以能提供如此低的利率，是因为他们确信当你的贷款抵押不足或接近不足时，他们可以出售比特币。这样他们始终能保全本金，从贷款方角度看，这本质上就是无风险收益率，对吧？所以会设定某个贷款价值比（LTV）。

If it gets liquidated. How does that work? So any loan that you take that is over collateralized, the way it works for the lender to be able to offer you such a low rate is they need confidence that if your loan becomes under collateralized or close to that, that they can sell the Bitcoin. So they're always made whole, because from a lender perspective, this is essentially a risk free rate of return that they're getting on their dollars, right? So there's a certain LTV.

每次申请贷款时，你都能看到这个LTV（贷款价值比）。如果想理解为清算价格，也可以这么想：当比特币跌到某个价位时，除非你提前追加抵押物，否则贷款就会被清算。我们在Lava平台有个功能，只要你持有比特币（即使不作为抵押物），系统就能自动追加，避免贷款被清算。

Anytime you make a loan, you can see that LTV, which is a loan to value ratio. If you wanna look at it as a liquidation price, there's also in a way you can think about it is if Bitcoin goes to this certain price, your loan can get liquidated, unless you add more collateral ahead of time. We have a feature in Lava where if you just have the Bitcoin, not even as collateral, but on Lava, we can automatically add it so that your loan won't get liquidated.

我们从贷款方角度聊聊吧？我调研过很多这类业务，也参与过一些，最让我震惊的是大型银行居然没有开展比特币抵押贷款业务。我最近讲过个故事：2018、2019年时我写过封信，说比特币是完美抵押物。结果我一位律师朋友发消息说'你疯了吧'。

Let's talk about from the lender side, right? So I've looked at a bunch of these businesses, been involved in some and of one of the things that I am shocked by is that the major banks have not gotten into lending against Bitcoin, right? I've told a story recently that back in 2018, 2019, wrote this story, I wrote this letter and I said that Bitcoin was pristine collateral. Yes. And a lawyer friend of mine messaged me and goes, you're like insane.

他说'快别这么讲了'。但重点在于——我至今仍坚信——在传统资产抵押贷款中，比如汽车贷款，我申请贷款后，贷款方给钱让我买车，最后车是开走的。抵押物实际在我手里，贷款方只有张还款承诺书。

Like stop saying that. Right? But the point was, and I still believe this, is in a normal asset backed loan, let's say a car, I come, I apply for a car loan, you as the lender, give me the money, I go buy the car and I leave with the car. So I have the collateral, you have basically a piece of paper that says, I'll pay you back.

对。

Yeah.

如果我不还款，他们还得去把车找回来。

If I stop paying, you got to come find the car.

确实。

Exactly.

你得找到我，找到那辆车，收回车辆，然后将其变现。这是个既昂贵又耗时的过程，甚至不能保证你能找到车。确实如此。因此就存在这样一种损失率——我们心知肚明会损失掉账面上大约5%的资产。而比特币的情况几乎完全相反。

You got to find me, you got to find the car, you got to repossess the car, and then you got to liquidate the car. That's a really expensive time consuming process, and it's not even guaranteed you're going to find the car. Exactly. And so there's like this loss ratio that comes with, hey, we just know we're going to lose, you know, whatever, 5% of the book. With Bitcoin, it is almost the exact opposite.

它解决了所有这些问题。比如我给你价值10万美元的比特币，你就能获得5万美元贷款。比特币在你手里。

It solves all these problems. So I'm going to give you a $100,000 of Bitcoin, you're gonna be a $50,000 loan. You got the Bitcoin.

是的。

Yeah.

对吧？没错。我拿到了借来的钱。如果比特币价格开始下跌，你不需要立即抛售价值10万美元的比特币，对吧？

Right? Yeah. I got the money that I borrowed. If at any point the price of Bitcoin starts to go down, you don't have to sell a $100,000 worth of Bitcoin. Right?

你可以分批出售，因为它是可分割的。通过逐步抛售，你实际上确保了双方都不会亏损。确实如此。但你们会明确告知用户价格临界点，以及他们可以采取的补救措施——比如追加抵押品、结清贷款等等。

You can sell pieces because it's fractional. And so as you start to sell, you're essentially making sure that you guys aren't going to lose money. Exactly. But you're very clear and upfront with users in terms of here are the price points and there's things they can do to cure it. They can post collateral, you know, close out the loan, whatever.

但这看起来像是传统金融界的巨大进步。如果他们突然能进行超额抵押贷款，并以借款人真正愿意接受的利率操作，似乎就同时满足了市场供需双方的需求。

But this seems like a huge advancement for the traditional financial world. If now all of a sudden they can do over collateralized lending and do it at rates where people really want to borrow, it seems like it's serving both sides of the market.

我认为，比特币确实是全球流动性最强的资产。它全天候24/7在全球交易。而且，就在几周前，我们甚至看到有人通过Galaxy抛售了超过100亿美元的比特币，而价格竟然没有波动，这简直太疯狂了。想想看，十年后人们会把比特币抵押贷款视为新的无风险收益率。

I think that, yeah, Bitcoin is the most liquid asset in the world. It trades 20 fourseven and globally. And, you know, we've even seen a couple weeks ago, someone, I think through Galaxy, sold more than $10,000,000,000 of Bitcoin and the price didn't move, which is pretty insane. Think in like ten years, people will view lending against Bitcoin as the new risk free rate of return.

现在，看看你们刚推出的这项信贷额度新产品，请解释下它与传统信贷产品的区别。

Now, when you look at this new product that you guys just came out with this line of credit, explain what the differences are with the line of credit products.

我们在服务这些用户时意识到，之前所谓的'比特币抵押贷款'存在一个问题：许多人是靠比特币退休的，他们希望在还款方式和期限上更灵活。因此这款新型信贷额度是首个比特币信贷产品，我称之为BLOC（类似房屋净值信贷额度HELOC，但针对比特币），它是完全开放期限的。当你抵押比特币借款时，贷款可以无限期开放。作为永远不想出售比特币的人，你就拥有了这笔可永久使用的信贷额度。

So one thing we realized as we were serving all these users taking what was previously, I would call like a Bitcoin mortgage, was that a lot of people are retired on Bitcoin and they want more flexibility on payments and on terms. And so this new line of credit is the first line of credit against Bitcoin. I call it a BLOC, kind of like a HELOC, but for Bitcoin, and it's fully open term. So when you borrow against your when you lock your Bitcoin, your loan can be open indefinitely. So as someone who never wants to sell your Bitcoin, you have this loan that is this line of credit that is open indefinitely forever.

在还款方面，不再是固定还款计划，现在你可以完全灵活还款。想什么时候还就什么时候还，没有强制月供要求。我们实际上提供了固定利率、灵活还款和开放期限的组合，我认为这才是理想的贷款产品，因为它最无摩擦、最简单也最安全。

And on payments, instead of a fixed payment schedule, now you have fully flexible repayments. You can repay whenever you want. There's no required monthly payments. So really what we did here is we still offer fixed rate, flexible repayments, and open terms, really to offer people what I think is the ideal loan product, because it is the most frictionless, simple, and safe.

那么操作流程是：我抵押10万美元，你们给我5万美元贷款。有两点特别有意思：第一，贷款没有期限，如果我愿意可以持续二十年——

Now, when you do this, again, I post a $100,000, you give me a $50,000 loan. Two things that I think are pretty interesting. One, there's no end to the loan. I could do this for twenty years if

没错吧？

I want. Right?

但利息会持续累积。是的。我可以选择按月支付，也可以选择最后一次性结清。

Now I'm accruing interest there. Yes. And I could choose to pay monthly or I could choose just to pay at the end.

确实如此。

Exactly.

因此它提供了最大的灵活性。为什么有人不愿意按月支付而选择一次性付清呢？

And so it gives like maximum flexibility. What are reasons why somebody would not want to pay monthly and just kind of pay off

我们有个用户目前没有收入来源，也没有工作，但他持有比特币，实际上是个天使投资人。他目前正在通过Lava借款，他告诉我他理想的借款用途是用来买房和买辆豪车。他说预计两年内他的一家公司会上市，届时会有流动性事件。在这两年期间，他实际上不想做任何还款。现在有了这种信用额度，他就能实现这个计划——用200万美元的比特币作抵押借100万美元，可以累积利息，等公司上市后如果想的话，可以出售股票来偿还部分信用额度。

at the So one of our users, he doesn't make any income right now. He doesn't have a job, he has Bitcoin and he's an investor actually, like an angel investor. And he's actually been borrowing with Lava right now, but he was telling me that what would be the ideal preferred use case for him, he borrowed to, you know, buy a house and also to buy a really nice car, and he was saying in two years, he's expecting that one of his companies is going to go public, so he's going have a liquidity event. Before those two years, he actually doesn't want to make any payments, and so now with this line of credit, he can do that because he can borrow a million dollars against $2,000,000 of Bitcoin, he can accrue interest, and when one of his companies goes public, if he wants to, he can sell that stock and pay down some of his line of credit.

明白了。还有其他人使用这些产品的例子吗？比如他们买些什么？有没有什么特别疯狂的消费故事？

Got it. And what are some other examples of people using these products? Like, what are they buying? Any like really crazy stories of people doing kind of insane things?

是的，还有个挺有意思的客户。他从事客服工作，一直为金融科技公司做客户服务，收入其实不算很高。但他从小到大的梦想就是买辆保时捷，前几天他通过Waffle贷款买了辆保时捷，这是非常炫耀性的消费，但这就是他的梦想购车...我不确定——

Yeah. There's one guy, this is also kind of interesting, he's like a customer support, he's been in customer support client services, you know, for just FinTechs, not as extremely high paying job actually, but his dream purchase ever since he was a kid was to buy a Porsche, and he actually bought a Porsche using Waffle the other day, which is very flashy purchase, that was his dream purchase and he was able to do- I don't

要是我可能不会推荐这种做法对吧？贷款买保时捷？

know if I'd recommend that, right? I don't know I'd recommend that. Basically take out a loan to buy a Porsche?

对，确实如此。不过这个消费确实很张扬。事后我专门和他聊过这事，因为他事先没告诉我们这个用途，后来才发消息告知。我觉得这还挺...

Yeah, exactly. But it is a very flashy purchase, but I actually talked to him about it after, because he hadn't told us that was what he was doing, but then he, like, you know, messaged us about it, and I thought it was a pretty like- So

这也有趣，他们甚至不会告诉你贷款用途，对吧？如果你去银行申请贷款，他们不仅要知道用途，还会对你评头论足。

that's interesting too, is like, they don't even tell you what they're using the loan proceeds for, right? If you go to a bank and you want a loan, they not only want to know what it is, they kind of like pass judgment.

确实如此。

Exactly.

你知道，如果你说想贷款买辆保时捷，他们肯定不会批的。

You know, if you were like, hey, I want to take a loan to go buy a Porsche, like they're definitely not giving you a loan.

是的。我认为比特币作为储蓄资产有其理念，虽然比特币对消费主义有很多影响，但我们不会评判你如何使用贷款资金。

Yeah. Yeah. I think that, you know, for me, I have the ethos of Bitcoin as a savings asset, I think Bitcoin has a lot of implications for consumerism, but, you know, we're we're not gonna judge you on whatever you do with the loan proceeds.

好的。那么作为投资人，你们已经募集了大量资金，你们如何盈利呢？

Yeah. Alright. So I'm an investor. You guys have raised a bunch of money from a lot of people. How do you guys make money?

本期节目由Zappo银行赞助。作为比特币持有者，你是否在寻找收益、安全性和流动性？Zappo银行是一家持牌私人银行及虚拟资产服务商，受直布罗陀监管。自2013年起，他们建立了最受信赖的比特币托管金库，如今服务更趋完善——安全只是起点。

Today's episode is brought to you by Zappo Bank. Are you a Bitcoiner looking for yield, security, and liquidity? Zappo Bank is a fully licensed private bank and a virtual asset service provider. They're regulated in Gibraltar, and they've built one of the most trusted vaults for Bitcoin custody since 2013, and now they offer so much more too. Security is just the start.

通过Zappo银行，你的比特币每日都能增值。会员美元存款年化收益达3.75%，比特币余额年化收益0.5%，且利息每日以比特币支付。使用他们的高级借记卡全球消费，可赚取最高1%的比特币返现且免外汇手续费。需要流动性时，你可立即以比特币为抵押借款高达100万美元，无隐藏费用且提前还款无罚金——这意味着你无需出售比特币就能获得现金。

With Zappo Bank, your Bitcoin can grow every single day. Members earn 3.75% APY on USD deposits and point 5% APY on Bitcoin balances, and that interest is paid daily in Bitcoin. You can also spend worldwide with their premium debit card, earning up to 1% cash back in Bitcoin and no foreign exchange fees. And when you need liquidity, you can borrow against your Bitcoin up to 1,000,000 instantly with no hidden fees and no early repayment penalties. That means you can access cash without selling your Bitcoin.

如果你需要帮助，也可以联系真人客服。Zappos专家团队全天候为您解答问题。Pump播客听众作为新用户注册，首年会员可享150美元优惠。立即访问zappobank.com/pump了解更多并注册。网址是xap0bank.com/pomp。

And if you ever need help, you can talk to a real person too. Zappos expert team is available twenty four seven to answer your questions. Pump podcast listeners like you who sign up as new users will receive a $150 off their first year of membership. Go to zappobank.com/pump to learn more and sign up today. That's xap0bank.com/pomp.

今天就快去看看吧。

Go check it out today.

本质上每家贷款公司都只有一种盈利方式：先获得资金成本，然后发放贷款并从中赚取少量利差

So we basically, every loan business makes money in just one way, which is there's a cost of capital, and then you make loans, and you take a little margin on

好吧。那说说你们的资金成本是多少？

a Alright. Then say what your cost of capital is?

我们目前的资金成本大约在4.5%到7.5%之间。不过现在正在大幅降低。目前我们所有贷款都使用5%利率的信贷额度

So our cost of capital right now is between like four and a half to seven and a half percent. Okay. But now we're actually, we're reducing it pretty significantly. So right now we're actually making all loans with the line of credit at a 5% interest

对。我想说的是如果你以5%放贷却要支付7%成本，这行不通。不，但我解释的不是这个意思

Yeah. What we also- going say is if you're lending at 5%, but you're paying seven, that don't work. No, but that's not how I explained

我们现在主要使用的资金成本在4.5%到5%左右。另外我们还通过用户在其他业务中的使用来盈利。目前贷款产品我们只求收支平衡。你们还有其他盈利方式吗？

We're mostly using our cost of capital at like four and a half to five right now. Okay. But the other thing that we're also doing is we also may just make money when users use us across through other things. So loans, we're actually not trying to make, like, we're trying to just be breakeven on the loan product right now. How else do you make money?

因为我们为人们提供各种其他金融服务。许多使用Lava抵押比特币借款的用户，开始通过我们购买比特币。他们还开始使用我们进行美元支付，因为有了现金后就需要用现金支付。用户会通过这些服务逐渐熟悉我们。我们有很多处于测试阶段的产品已经公布，人们正使用这些产品更流畅地完成支付。

Because we serve all sorts of other financial services to people. A lot of people that use Lava to borrow against their Bitcoin start using us to do like buying Bitcoin, for example. They start using us to make dollar payments, because you have cash, now you need to make payments with that cash. You'll start using us through that. There's a lot of products that we have in beta that we have announced that people are using us for to more seamlessly make their payments.

对Lava而言，我们的目标是成为比特币财富管理领域的技术公司。当前加密货币领域有许多交易公司，但我们除了比特币外不想涉足其他数字资产。我们发现用户会通过Lava买房或处理其他事务，我们正在开发相关软件，让管理比特币资产变得更简单。

And really for Lava, what we aim to be is a technology company for Bitcoin wealth management. So I think you have all these like crypto trading companies right now in crypto. We don't really want to touch any other digital asset other than Bitcoin, but we've seen that people use Lava for, you know, buying a house, all these other things, and there's software that we're going to create that makes all of these things a lot easier for you to manage your Bitcoin world.

为什么你们不想涉足其他领域？对ETH、SOL、Avalanche、狗狗币、Fartcoin这些都没兴趣吗？

Why don't you want to do anything else? You're not like into ETH or SOL or Avalanche or Dogcoin or Fartcoin or any these?

我认为比特币的核心理念是让储蓄变得简单。最初我接触比特币是因为看到父母不仅为赚钱发愁，更为如何保值而困扰。对我而言比特币是健全货币。如今所有金融平台都鼓励投机，而我们希望你储蓄。我们坚信比特币应该是财富的根基。

So the way I kind of view Bitcoin's vision is that it is It really makes saving simple. Like the reason I got into Bitcoin originally, just based on my background, was I saw my parents struggling with not just figuring out how to make income, but how to store the value of their money. And Bitcoin to me is sound money. And I think today, every financial platform I see, they want you to speculate and we want you to save. And so we're really focused on this vision where Bitcoin is the foundation of your wealth.

它是你储蓄的基础。如果你认真思考理想的金融体验，应该是能让储蓄增值的服务。如果你把比特币视为储蓄，就需要能帮助比特币随时间增长的工具——这正是我们的目标。我们衡量成功的标准是：使用Lava能让你比不使用获得更多比特币。

It's the foundation of your saving. And if you really think about what you want in a financial experience, you want something that grows your savings. And if you believe Bitcoin is your savings, you want something that helps grow your Bitcoin over time. And that's what we want to do. We really measure our success, but with how much more Bitcoin do you have because you use lava versus if you didn't.

你们在组建公司时，到底是从哪儿找到这些人才的？是计算机极客吗？还是来自华尔街的精英？

Now, when you guys are building a company, like who the heck is working with this Where are finding these people? They like a nerd computer scientists? Are they coming from Wall Street?

我们的团队既有在比特币行业深耕十余年的开发者，他们创造了比特币的核心加密协议；也有来自金融科技领域的人才，包括一些顶级金融科技公司的前员工。甚至我们的投资者中——比如您就是投资人——也包括多位创始人级人物。

We've hired people from, we hired some people from Bitcoin who've been developers in the industry for more than a decade, have invented some of the core cryptography and protocols that make Bitcoin what it is. We've also hired people from a FinTech perspective. We've hired people from some of the largest FinTechs. We've even, our investors are, you're an investor, but also Founders

好的，我先说吧，毕竟我坐在这里。请继续。

Yeah, to say me first, because I'm sitting here. Go ahead.

你知道的，就像Cosla的基思和Founders Fund，我们实际上也借助了他们的网络，帮助我们在整个行业中寻找最优秀的人才，不仅限于比特币领域，还包括金融科技和更广泛的科技行业。

And you know, like Keith from Cosla and Founders Fund, we've actually leaned on their networks as well to help us find the best talent in the industry across not just Bitcoin, but also FinTech and larger tech as well.

好吧。我这次投资能赚钱吗？

Alright. Am I gonna make money on this investment?

希望如此。

I hope so.

是啊，我们希望如此。不过我也不确定。按理说我总该说'当然能赚'这种话。

Yeah. We hope so. I don't know. It's very I'm always supposed to say, hell, yeah, you are.

你会的。没错。

You will. Yes.

好吧。那么接下来呢？你们还打算开发什么？

Alright. And then what what like, what's next? What else are you guys gonna build?

目前我们正全力扩展这项信用额度服务，不过我要给正在观看的观众们透露个小彩蛋——我们正在开发一张卡片。

So right now, we're really focused on just scaling out this line of credit, but I mean, I'll give a teaser for the people that are viewing this right now, we're building a card right now.

卡片？

A card?

是的。实际上它已进入测试阶段，未来一两个月内将向所有人推出。真正的价值在于：我们一个月前上线了一项功能，可以为你创建比特币银行账户。比如你使用Riplane，就像我有个在旧金山初创公司工作的朋友那样，他也开始这么做了。

Yes. So basically it's already in beta and it'll be rolled out to basically everyone over the next like month or two. And the real value of this is, right now we launched a feature about a month ago where we can create a Bitcoin bank account for you. So if you go to your Riplane, you're like just someone working at one of my friends is working at a startup in San Francisco. He actually started doing this too.

他只想用每笔薪水囤积比特币，全身心投入比特币。我们创建这个比特币银行账户后，你在Rippling将其设为收款账户。雇主甚至不知道你在用它囤币，但每次转账都会零手续费兑换成比特币并存入你的Lava账户。

He just wants to stack Bitcoin with every paycheck. He's all in on Bitcoin. So we create this Bitcoin bank account. You go to Rippling, you put it as your bank account. Your employer doesn't even know you're stacking Bitcoin with it, but anytime you send money to it, it gets converted to Bitcoin with zero fees and gets sent to your Lava account.

现在你完全投入比特币了，有了信用额度后可以借款消费。虽然目前美国不是所有地方都接受二维码支付，但大多数商户接受刷卡。我们即将推出的这张卡，每次刷卡都会实时动用你的信用额度来完成交易。

Now you're all in on Bitcoin, now you have your line of credit, you can borrow against it to make purchases. But right now, obviously people aren't accepting QR codes everywhere in America, but most people accept cards. So we have this card that we're launching that anytime you swipe it, it will literally draw on your line of credit to fund the purchase at the point of sale.

所以本质上这是张信用卡，但使用时是以比特币为抵押的信用额度，而非普通信用卡。那么优势是什么？比如更低利率？其实你已经...

So basically it's a credit card that if you use, you're using a line of credit against your Bitcoin rather than a normal credit card. And so what are the advantages, like a lower interest rate? Well, you're already

将获得信用额度提供的5%利率，但问题是——

going to get the interest rate that you get with the line of credit at 5%, but what-

这比那些收取29%高额利息坑人的信用卡低多了。绝对是的。简直该算犯罪。虽然我明白市场规律这些，但这太疯狂了。

That's lower than credit cards that are ripping people off at 29%. For sure. Should be a crime. Like, look, I get a market forces and stuff, but that's crazy.

确实太疯狂了。

That is crazy.

我只是在收割那些不明就里的人。

I'm just preying on people who don't know what's going on.

确实。但我要说大多数比特币玩家——至少在我看来——不会背负那种级别的信用卡债务。真正的价值在于你现在可以...

For sure. But I will say most Bitcoiners are probably not, at least from my perspective, racking on that level of credit card debt. The real value is you're-

哦，你是说那些相信卖钱理论的人正在退缩，而债务却要支付29%的利息？

Oh, you mean the people who believe in selling money are backing up, debt is paying 29% interest?

没错。但真正的价值在于现在你可以用比特币收款，雇主无需改变，你用比特币储蓄且永不抛售，还能随心所欲地支付。雇主不变，商户不变，但你已生活在比特币标准之下。这正是信用额度配合卡片，加上比特币支付功能为我们实现的。

Exactly. But the real value is now you can get paid in Bitcoin, your employer doesn't have to change, you're saving in Bitcoin, you're never selling it, and you can now pay wherever you want. Your employer doesn't change, the merchant doesn't change, but you live on a Bitcoin standard. And that's really what the line of credit along with the card, along with the getting paid in Bitcoin kind of enables for us.

明白了。未来所有人都会这么做吗？还是你认为这仍将局限于部分人群？

Got it. And is like everyone going to do this in the future or do you think that this is still going to be like a subset of people?

目前我想说的是，确实有人正将比特币作为储蓄资产来实践这种未来生活方式。当然并非全世界都如此，但过去几年我亲眼目睹越来越多人正在拥抱这种未来。有个现象很有意思

Right now, what I say is that we have people that are really living this future over Bitcoin as their savings asset. Obviously, not everyone in the world is, but I I've I've seen over, you know, the last few years that more and more people are living this future. One thing that's kind of interesting

你有现金吗？你有美元吗？

You got cash? You you got dollars?

我的意思是，我持有的美元刚好够日常消费。好吧，我算是全仓比特币了，但我——

I mean, I've I get, I have just enough dollars for any purchase that I make. Alright. So I'm all in on Bitcoin, but what I-

你就像个比特币极简主义者，美元极简主义者。

You're like a Bitcoin maximalist dollar minimalist.

没错。我称之为'基础比特币主义者'。基础比特币主义者？因为这些人正过着以比特币为基础的生活方式。

Exactly. I call it base Bitcoiners. Base Bitcoiners? Because people, they're living a Bitcoin based lifestyle.

好吧。

Okay.

后来我意识到，很多人最初只将10%的财富配置比特币，但由于比特币的升值，他们最终都变成了基础比特币主义者。

And then one thing I've realized, a lot of people, they started only stacking like 10% of their wealth in Bitcoin, but then they just become base Bitcoiners because of Bitcoin's appreciation.

是啊。说起来有趣的是，我以前也是那样。我们公寓里有张著名照片，我妻子坐在地板上，因为我们不需要沙发，这样过了几个月也挺好。但随着结婚生子，生活责任就不同了。

Yeah. Well, you know what's funny is I used to be like that, right? I mean, there's famous picture of my wife sitting on the floor and an apartment we had, we don't need a couch. We were good for a couple months. But also you start, you know, you get married, you got kids, all that kind of stuff.

比如孩子不能吃比特币对吧？如果卖掉它又要面临税务问题。突然就变成一种矛盾状态：既想囤积更多比特币，又不得不换些美元来应付未来几个月的开销。随着人们年龄增长、承担不同生活责任时，往往会陷入这种困境——既想坚守比特币理念，但频繁买卖比特币可能比留些现金在应急账户里更不利。

Like the kids, they can't eat Bitcoin. Right? And then if you sell it, then you got the tax consequences. Then all of sudden becomes this weird dynamic where you want to stack as much Bitcoin as possible, but also you're like, do need the dollars because I got to get rid of these things, you know, in the coming months. So it is this, as people, I think get a little bit older as they have a little bit, you know, different responsibilities in life, it almost becomes this thing where you want to keep the ethos of Bitcoin, but also in a way buying the Bitcoin and then coming back out of the Bitcoin may actually be more detrimental than just maybe saving a little bit of, you know, cash and like a expense account, if you will.

没错！或者在消费时直接用信用卡额度借款就行。

Right? Exactly. Or just at the time of purchase, you know, to borrow on your line of cards.

那这张卡要叫什么名字？

That makes it, what's the card going be called?

就叫熔岩卡。

Just the lava card.

就叫熔岩卡？行啊。还有其他你觉得大家应该知道的事吗？或是有什么技巧、内幕消息要分享？

Just the lava card? Yeah. That's fine. Anything else that you think that people should know about or any other tips, tricks, alpha you got for them?

我认为比特币真正的价值在于它的极简性。你只需囤币、持币、永不卖币，然后通过抵押借款来提升生活质量。这让金融变得无比简单。

I think the real value of Bitcoin is, it's so simple. You just, you stock Bitcoin, you save it, you never sell it, and you just buy a borrow against it to fund just the purchases that make your quality of life better. And it really makes finance so simple.

我们信仰中本聪。我们追随中本聪，好吧。那么，大家可以去哪里了解Lava呢？

In Satoshi We Trust. In Satoshi We Right, okay. All right. Where can people go to check out Lava?

你可以访问我们的网站lava.xyz，下载手机应用或使用网页版。

You can go to our website, lava.xyz, and download our mobile app or use our web app.

好的。我能在播客里做件从没做过的事吗？你喜欢听反馈吗？

All right. Can I do something I've never done on the podcast before? You like feedback?

喜欢。

Yeah.

好。我希望每个人都在YouTube评论区留言，无论你认为我能否靠这个赚钱。我们会揭晓答案。我需要真实反馈——用过产品后，差评也好建议也好。

Yeah. I want everyone to go in the YouTube comments and leave a comment, whether you think I'm gonna make money on this or not. We're going to find out. I want good feedback. If you use the product, I want bad feedback, suggestions.

我要你们尽情批评，把想到的都提出来，然后你们可以互相看看大家的意见

I want you to critique it, everything you got, and then you guys go through and see what

我会回复每一条评论。

you're I'll respond to every comment.

你会回答'是'的。就是这样。好的。感谢你抽时间做这件事。我们以后还会再做的。

You're going respond to Yes. There you go. Alright. I appreciate taking the time to do this. We'll do it again in the future.

是的。谢谢，妈妈。

Yes. Thanks, mom.