344. 社会病态

这是一档iHeart播客节目，《真人保证》。

This is an iHeart podcast, Guaranteed Human.

我是罗伯特·史密斯，这位是雅各布·戈德斯坦。

I'm Robert Smith, and this is Jacob Goldstein.

我们曾主持过一档名为《金钱星球》的节目。

And we used to host a show called Planet Money.

现在我们回归制作这档名为《商业史》的新播客，讲述历史上最伟大的创意、人物和企业。

And now we're back making this new podcast called business history about the best ideas and people and businesses in history.

以及一些最糟糕的人物，

And some of the worst people,

可怕的创意和具有破坏性的公司

horrible ideas, and destructive companies

在商业史上的故事。

in the history of business.

第一期节目将讲述：西南航空如何用廉价机票和免费威士忌在航空业杀出一条血路的故事

First episode, how Southwest Airlines used cheap seats and free whiskey to fight its way into the airline

商业。

business.

最具德州特色的故事。

The most Texas story ever.

请在iHeartRadio应用、Apple Podcasts上收听《商业历史》

Listen to business history on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

或任何你获取播客的地方。

or wherever you get your podcasts.

父亲传承给儿子们需要治愈的循环是什么？

What are the cycles fathers passed down that sons are left to heal?

如果成为一个男人不是关于掌控一切，而是学会放手呢？

What if being a man wasn't about holding it all together, but learning how to let go?

这是一个让男人说出真相并找到治愈和转变力量的空间。

This is a space where men speak truth and find the power to heal and transform.

我是迈克·德拉罗查。

I'm Mike Della Rocha.

欢迎来到神圣课程。

Welcome to sacred lessons.

请在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或您获取播客的任何平台收听《神圣课程》。

Listen to sacred lessons on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

医生。

Doctor.

我是《幸福实验室》的劳里·桑托斯。

Laurie Santos from the Happiness Lab here.

正值奉献的季节，今年我的播客《幸福实验室》与非营利组织GiveDirectly合作，参与'播客抗击贫困'行动，为极端贫困人群提供急需的现金援助。

It's the season of giving, and this year, my podcast, the Happiness Lab, is partnering with GiveDirectly, a nonprofit that provides people in extreme poverty with the cash they need as part of the Pods Fight Poverty campaign.

我们今年的目标是筹集100万美元，这将帮助700多个家庭摆脱极端贫困。

Our goal this year is to raise $1,000,000, which will bring over 700 families out of extreme poverty.

您的捐款将直接送达这些需要帮助的家庭手中，由他们自行决定用途——无论是支付上学交通费、购买牲畜，还是创业。

Your donation will put cash directly in the hands of these families in need, and they'll get to decide how to use it, whether that's school transportation, purchasing livestock, or starting a business.

此外，如果您是首次捐赠者，您的善款还将获得Giving Multiplier的等额匹配，这意味着贫困人群将获得双倍帮助。

Plus, if you're a first time donor, your gift will be matched by giving multiplier, which means more money for those in need.

访问givedirectly.org/happinesslab了解更多信息并进行捐赠。

Visit givedirectly.org/happinesslab to learn more and to donate.

网址是givedirectly.org/happinesslab。

That's givedirectly.org/happinesslab.

这个节目走在了时代前列。

The show was ahead of time.

以电视从未展现过的方式呈现一个黑人家庭。

To represent a black family in ways that television hadn't shown before.

正是如此。

Exactly.

我是特尔玛·霍普金斯，也被称为瑞秋阿姨。

It's Telma Hopkins, also known as aunt Rachel.

我是凯莉·威廉姆斯，也叫劳拉·温斯洛。

And I'm Kelly Williams or Laura Winslow.

欢迎收听我们的播客《与特尔玛和凯莉共享天伦之乐》。

On our podcast, welcome to the family with Telma and Kelly.

我们正在重温《家庭琐事》的每一集。

We're rewatching every episode of family matters.

我们会分享制作这档节目背后的故事。

We'll share behind the scenes stories about making the show.

是的。

Yeah.

我们还会邀请一些特别嘉宾来爆料些内幕。

We'll even bring in some special guests to spill some tea.

欢迎收听由塞尔玛和凯莉主持的《欢迎来到这个家庭》，可在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或任何你获取播客的平台收听。

Listen to welcome to the family with Thelma and Kelly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

大家好，欢迎回到《二十几岁的心理学》，在这档播客中我们将探讨二十多岁经历的重大人生变化和转折，以及它们对我们心理的影响。

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the psychology of your twenties, the podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they mean for our psychology.

大家好。

Hello, everybody.

欢迎回到节目。

Welcome back to the show.

欢迎回到播客节目。

Welcome back to the podcast.

今天，我又为大家准备了一期小型的特别节目。

Today, I've got another little bonus episode for you guys.

这些较短的节目与我们平常的深度探讨有些不同。

So these shorter episodes are a little bit different from our usual deep dives.

可以把它们想象成咖啡时间的闲聊，我们会在这里拆解一个术语、一个理论或一个心理学概念——那些常被误解或随意使用的概念。

Think of them as like little coffee break chats where we tend to just unpack a single term, a single theory, a single psychological concept that is probably misunderstood or just thrown around pretty casually.

这里的目的是为你提供一些可以随时随地收听的内容，让你对这些术语出现时能更自信一些。

And the goal here is just to give you something that you can kind of listen to on the go to give you like just enough clarity to be a little bit more confident when you hear these terms pop up.

同时也是为你的通勤时间准备的，当你不想听长达45分钟或一小时的节目时，这就是替代选择。

But also just like for your commute when you don't want to listen to like a forty five minute hour long episode, this is the this is the alternative.

不过今天的话题是我经常被问到的。

Today's topic though is one I get asked about all the time.

社会病态。

Sociopathy.

这个词现在随处可见。

This is a term that is floating around everywhere at the moment.

在TikTok上已经流行了一段时间，涉及真实犯罪内容，甚至在约会建议中，但往往用法并不准确。

It has been for a while on TikTok, when it comes to true crime content, even like in dating advice, and often in ways that aren't exactly accurate.

所以我们今天就来聊聊这个话题。

So we're gonna talk about it today.

社会病态究竟意味着什么？

What does sociopathy actually mean?

它不意味着什么？

What does it not mean?

它与精神病患者或自恋者有何不同？

And how does it different from somebody who's a psychopath or a narcissist?

我们需要做出许多不同的区分。

There's so many different distinctions that we need to make.

但首先，第一件事。

But first things first.

社会病态在现代心理学中并非临床诊断术语。

Sociopathy isn't actually a clinical diagnosis in modern psychology.

你翻开《精神疾病诊断与统计手册》第五版，不会找到社会病态被列为正式疾病。

You will not open the DSM-five and find sociopathy listed as a formal disorder.

任何声称社会病态是诊断术语的人都不清楚自己在说什么。

Anyone who tells you that does not know what they're talking about.

但你会看到反社会人格障碍（ASPD）的诊断条目。

What you will find however is antisocial personality disorder or ASPD.

将某人称为'社会病态者'更多是一种文化用语。

Sociopathy calling someone a sociopath is more so a cultural term.

历史上心理学家曾用这个术语描述特定类型人群。

Historically it was used at times by a psychologist to describe a particular kind of person.

但现在我们称之为ASPD，即反社会人格障碍。

But now we call it ASPD, antisocial personality disorder.

这个障碍具体描述的是什么样的特征呢？

What does that disorder, what does that come to describe?

美国精神病学协会将ASPD定义为一种漠视并侵犯他人权利的行为模式。

So the American Psychiatric Association defines ASPD as a pattern of disregard for and the violation of the rights of others.

它通常始于童年或青少年早期。

It often begins in childhood or early adolescence.

这种状况会持续到成年，ASPD患者可能更难对他人产生共情。

It continues into adulthood and people with ASPD may find it harder to develop empathy for people.

他们对社会规范缺乏尊重。

They have a lack of regard for social norms.

他们通常具有欺骗性、易怒、存在某种行为问题或障碍，并表现出更多反复无常或冲动行为。

They are often deceitful, highly irritable, have some kind of conduct issue or disorder and show more erratic or impulsive behaviors.

这就是现在人们所认为的反社会人格者的特征。

This is kind of what a sociopath is now seen as.

由于这种冲动性，反社会人格者常被视为反应过度、容易发怒或伤害他人的人。

Now because of this impulsivity, sociopaths are often seen as people who are very reactive and very quick to maybe anger or hurt others.

他们往往还伴有严重的药物滥用问题，这或许并不令人意外。

It might also be unsurprising that they also have a lot of substance use issues.

一项调查发现，他们符合酒精依赖标准的可能性高出近七到八倍，符合药物依赖标准的可能性则高出15到17倍。

One survey found that they're almost seven to eight times more likely to meet the criteria for alcohol dependence and 15 to 17 more times likely to meet the criteria for drug dependence.

反社会人格障碍在监狱环境中的患病率异常之高。

And the prevalence of ASPD in prison settings is incredibly high.

你会发现与司法系统有过接触的人群中，约有三分之一会被诊断为反社会人格障碍——若用旧术语来说就是'病态人格'。

The amount of people that you would find who have had interaction with the legal system who would receive a diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder or sociopathy if you want to use the old term is around the one in three mark.

2001年的一项研究调查了两万三千名囚犯。

Or in one study they did in 2001 they looked at twenty three thousand prisoners.

几乎每两名囚犯中就有一人——约50%的服刑人员，我们可以轻率地称他们为病态人格者。

It was one in two, almost fifty percent of people who are in prison, we could flippantly call them sociopaths.

这些人大多具有反社会人格障碍的典型特征。

They would have a lot of the characteristics of this antisocial personality disorder.

这就是我们今天要讨论的核心议题。

So that is really what we're talking about today.

这类人似乎深谙社会运作规则，却始终无法真正适应社会。

This kind of individual who just seems to almost know how society operates to understand it, but not really know how to how to cope.

甚至连应对都做不到。

Not even cope.

甚至不知道如何在这个体系内行事，在一个充满同理心、善待他人、尊重并顾及他人感受的人类社会体系中。

Not even know how to act within that system, within a human system of empathy and of kindness towards other people and of respect and regard for other people's feelings.

还有一点人们常常会将社会病态者与社会病态混淆，那就是精神病态者与精神病态。

Now there's another thing that people often get confused with sociopaths or sociopathy and that is psychopaths or psychopathy.

这两者经常被混为一谈。

These two often get lumped together all the time.

它们并非同一回事。

They are not the same thing.

精神病态者是最初的统称术语，用于描述所有性格类型偏离社会常态的人。

Psychopaths, that was the original OG umbrella term that was used to describe anyone with personality types that differed to the perceived norms.

但在20世纪30至40年代，精神病学家开始意识到，将所有存在人格问题的人都称为精神病态者，对于诊断这类人群及其表现出的不同特质特征具有极大的局限性。

But in the 1930s and 1940s, psychiatrists began to kind of notice that just calling anybody who had a personality issue a psychopath was incredibly limiting in terms of how they were going to diagnose these individuals and the different expressions of traits that they all had.

因此他们真正开始拆解或区分这个统称术语下涵盖的不同病症类型。

And so that's when they really started to kind of kind of like tear apart or kind of delineate the different kind of conditions that fell under this umbrella term.

在当时，反社会人格就是其中之一。

And sociopath back in that time was one of them.

精神病态这一术语保留了下来，但两者有所区别。

Psychopath remained, but there was a difference.

反社会人格者是由于社会化过程形成了这种反社会人格。

A sociopath is someone who developed this kind of antisocial personality because of socialization.

也就是说，他们的成长环境、所处社区造就了他们现在的样子。

So because of their upbringing, because of their environment, because of their community, that is why they are the way they are.

而精神病态者的理论认为，他们天生如此。

Psychopaths, the theory is they were just born this way.

他们具有这种与生俱来的特质，使其冷酷无情、漠视他人感受，或极度疏离且善于操纵。

They have this innate trait which makes them callous, unaware of others feelings, or just deeply detached but also manipulative.

因此从历史上看，反社会人格是由外部因素造成的。

So historically, sociopathy is about external factors.

而精神病态则是根植于你内心深处的东西。

Psychopathy is about something that is hardwired, deep inside of you.

随着时间的推移，这些界限逐渐变得模糊，现在我们有了这个涵盖所有类型的反社会人格障碍诊断。

And over time, the lines kind of got blurred and now we have this ASPD diagnosis which typically covers them all.

关于反社会者与精神病态者的另一个区别需要知道的是，人们仍然在你周围使用这些术语。

Now one other thing to know about the difference between sociopaths and psychopaths is people are still using those terms around you.

事实上，反社会者能够与他人建立情感联系。

Is that sociopaths actually can form attachments with other people.

他们确实会爱人。

They do love people.

他们确实会结婚，因为他们关心他人。

They do get married because they care about people.

而精神病态者则极度精于算计。

Psychopaths on the other hand are deeply calculated.

他们更有可能取得成功。

They are more likely to be successful.

实际上他们入狱的可能性更低。

They are actually less likely to end up in prison.

他们通过人际关系来掩饰其操控特质。

And they mask their manipulative traits using human relationships.

他们会结婚。

They will get married.

他们甚至可能有孩子。

They may even have kids.

但他们很少与这些人建立真正深刻的共情和情感纽带。

But they rarely actually have any kind of deeply empathetic and emotional bond with those individuals.

另一点是，反社会者具有高度冲动性。

The other thing is sociopaths are highly impulsive.

精神病患者则极度理性。

Psychopaths are highly highly rational.

所以这一点非常需要澄清。

So that's really important to clarify.

精神病患者同样不会出现在DSM诊断手册中。

Psychopaths as well, they will not you will not find them in the DSM either.

这个词目前主要在法医心理学和犯罪学领域使用。

It is still kind of a term that is used especially in forensic psychology and criminology.

特别是针对那些研究和试图理解犯罪行为、犯罪原因、模式及其社会影响的人群。

Especially for people who are researching and trying to understand criminal behavior and the causes and the patterns and the societal impact of crimes.

但就目前而言，你不可能走进医生办公室，表现出精神病态或反社会人格的特征，然后被贴上这样的诊断标签。

But as of right now, like, you could not walk into a doctor's office and say and or exhibit signs of psych sociopathy or psychopathy and get that as your label.

这种情况要随意得多。

It's a lot more casual.

那么为什么这些词汇仍在被使用呢？

So why why are these words still used?

但为什么它们又如此被滥用呢？

But also why are they so misused?

为什么我们遇到一个可能只是不太喜欢、有点刻薄或有点操控性的人，就会轻易说那人是精神病或反社会者？

Why do we come across someone who maybe we don't like, who was maybe a little bit mean, maybe a little bit manipulative, and just be like that person is a psychopath, that person is a sociopath.

很大程度上要归因于所谓的语言漂移现象。

A lot of it comes down to this thing called language drift.

这种情况是指一个词最初用于特定语境，但逐渐被延伸使用，直到其含义与最初使用时完全不同。

This is when a word starts in one context but kind of gets stretched until the point where its meaning is completely different from how it was originally used.

‘反社会者’这个词之所以经历这种语言漂移，并进入流行文化和日常心理学术语，部分原因是它确实描述了最恶劣的那类人，而且听起来非常戏剧化。

Part of why the term sociopath has experienced this language drift and has made it into pop culture and our daily psychobabble is because it really does describe the worst of the worst, and it sounds really dramatic.

它很有分量。

It has weight.

它带有锋芒。

It has an edge.

称你的前任为反社会者，比仅仅根据他们的行为来描述他们感觉更有力，甚至更能证明自己。

Calling your ex a sociopath feels more powerful, maybe even more validating than just saying or describing them based on their behaviors.

比如，说他们很会操控人心。

You know, saying they were manipulative.

他们不尊重我。

They didn't treat me with respect.

当你给那个人贴上标签，说他们是反社会者时，仿佛通过给这种行为模式赋予一个更严重、更易被社会识别的标签，你让自己经历的一切变得合理化了，这会让人们真正停下来反思。

When you then give that person a label and say they were a sociopath, it feels like you legitimize what you went through by giving that pattern of behavior a more serious and recognizable socially recognizable label that makes people really go like and take a step back.

比如反社会人格？

Like a sociopath?

嗯，这很可怕。

Well that's scary.

连环杀手就是这样的。

That's what serial killers are.

流行文化更是火上浇油。

Pop culture has also poured a lot of fuel on the fire.

想想很多电视剧，比如《杀死伊芙》里的薇拉内尔，《你》里的乔·戈德伯格。

Think about, a lot of TV shows like Villanelle in Killing Eve, Joe Goldberg in You.

娱乐产业实在太擅长了。

Like, the entertainment industry is so good.

他们极其擅长塑造这些极具魅力、阴暗且道德模糊的角色和人物。

They are profoundly good at writing these really fascinating, dark, morally ambiguous characters and people.

然后反社会人格的标签就被贴到他们身上，某种程度上为故事增添误解的色彩。

And then the label of sociopath gets slapped onto them to kind of add to like the mistake of the story.

但你要知道，他们的行为是为了娱乐效果而被夸大的。

But you know their behaviors are heightened for entertainment.

你知道的，那些跟踪、谋杀、精心设计的阴谋。

You know the stalking, the murder, the elaborate schemes.

这些并不总是会出现在患有ASPD或反社会人格障碍的人身上。

That's not always going to occur in someone with ASPD or sociopathy.

要知道，ASPD是一种严重的病症。

Which is you know, ASPD is a serious condition.

这种情况下，当我们看到这些极端角色刻画并使用极端语言时，往往会将其简化为一种刻板印象。

And what happens in these situations is that when we see these extreme character depictions and we have this extreme language, it often just becomes a shorthand for nuance.

我们真正想表达的是：那个人很危险，那个人有毒。

Know what we really are trying to say is that is that person is dangerous, that person is toxic.

你们知道我对这个词的感受——那个人有毒，那个人可能会伤害你，可能会伤害我，已经伤害过我。由于整个情况的复杂性有时难以表达，'反社会者'、'精神病态'这些词就让事情简单多了。

You guys know how I feel about that word but that person is toxic, that person may may hurt you, may hurt me, has hurt me And because that complexity of that whole situation is hard to sometimes get across sociopath, psychopath makes it a lot easier.

反社会人格的神秘感也让人们持续使用这个标签。

There's also something about the mystique of sociopathy that just keeps people using it.

对吧？

Right?

它就像一种秘密洞察力或对某人行为的解释，否则我们真的无法用语言描述他们是谁以及他们为何如此。

It feels like this secret insight or explanation for somebody's behavior when otherwise we really wouldn't have words for who they are and why they are the way they are.

当我们能够给某人贴上标签，将他们打包成'反社会者'时，感觉就像你破解了他们行为模式的密码，这确实能带来一种了结感。

When we just are able to label someone and package them up as a sociopath it feels like you've kind of cracked the code of why they act the way they do and it does give a sense of closure.

这就像是一个整洁的盒子，可以把某人凌乱的行为装进去，允许我告诉你关系结束了，或者我不会再接近那个人，或者他们是个彻头彻尾的坏人。

It's like this is a neat box to put someone's messy behavior into that allows me to just be like okay I can that relationship is over or I'm not going to be around that person or they are this all bad individual.

它让你更容易不对他们产生同理心或同情。

It makes it easier for you to not feel empathy or sympathy for them.

问题是很多人其实并非如此。

The thing is is that a lot of people are actually not like that.

很多人的行为都有其细微差别。

A lot of people have nuance to to their behavior.

他们在不同情境下会表现出不同的行为。

They act differently in different contexts.

不是因为他们有反社会人格，只因为他们是普通人。

Not because they're a sociopath, just because they're human.

他们都有缺点。

They have flaws.

他们都会犯错。

They make mistakes.

所以我不太喜欢我们用这种极端化的标签，把事物定性为非常极端的情况，声称他们永远无法改变，也不愿进一步探究他们行为背后的原因。

And so it's why I don't always like when we use this extremist language to label something as as this very intense thing to claim they can never change and to kind of not investigate why they may be they the way they are any further.

你可能会问，这有什么问题呢？

And you may be saying like, well, what's wrong with that?

如果他们是个坏人，为什么我不能直接说出我的看法？

If they're a bad person, why can't I just call it as I see it?

我理解你的出发点，也明白你的意思。

I get I get where you're coming from there and I understand that.

我认为这样会削弱这些词汇的真正意义，当我们在临床环境中确实需要这些词汇时，它们的份量需要保持。

I think because it loses meaning for when we actually really do need these words and we do wanna use them in clinical settings or in settings where their magnitude needs to needs to remain.

另外，仅仅考虑到这可能不仅对那个人造成严重的名誉损害，对你也是如此，这也是需要考虑的，也是为什么我们应该在使用这些术语时更加谨慎。

Also just for the the simple case of the fact that it could do a lot of reputational damage not just to that person but to you as well is also something to consider and is why we should maybe be a little bit cautious with using these terms.

但最终的论点是，这些术语的过度使用实际上污名化了那些真正患有反社会人格障碍（ASPD）的人。

But the final argument is that the overuse of these terms really stigmatizes people who actually do live with ASPD.

那些确实患有反社会人格障碍的人。

Who actually do have antisocial personality disorder.

某种程度上将他们描绘成恶棍，而有时他们实际上正在非常努力地改正自己的行为，而且他们也不一定总是对此负责。

Kind of painting them as as villains when sometimes they are actually trying very hard to fix their behavior and they also aren't necessarily always responsible for it.

这句话很难说出口。

Now that is a hard thing to say.

虽然我确实认为人们应该对自己的行为负责，但他们成为现在这样有时并非他们的错，而且情况极其复杂。

Some I do believe that people are responsible for their behavior, but the way they are the way they are sometimes was not their fault and is incredibly complex.

有时候说‘那个人是反社会者，他们永远都会是反社会者’，几乎就是在确保这种情况会发生。

And sometimes saying, well, that person's a sociopath, they will always be a sociopath, almost guarantees that that will happen.

这是一种自我实现的预言。

That is a self fulfilling prophecy.

而当我们将其称为反社会特质，或作为一种人格障碍、疾病、病症而非宿命来讨论时，

Whereas when we talk about it as antisocial traits or we talk about it as a personality disorder, a sickness, an illness, a condition rather than destiny.

实际上确实赋予了人们学习共情的能力——就像掌握一项技能那样，并逐渐改变他们的行为。

It actually does give people the capacity to learn empathy the way that you could learn a skill and to kind of change their behavior.

这是我在筹备本期节目时才真正了解到的非常有趣的现象。

This is something very interesting that I've only really learnt from researching this episode.

反社会人格障碍患者确实存在治疗的可能性。

People with antisocial personality disorder do actually have treatment options.

尽管他们在监狱系统和成瘾统计数据中占比很高，但这并不意味着其中一些人无法真正学会共情和善待他人。

And although they are highly represented in the prison system and, in addiction statistics, it doesn't mean that some of them don't actually learn empathy and learn how to be kind to people.

如果你从未需要学习如何善待他人，可能会觉得这简直不自然又怪异。

And if you've never had to learn how to be kind to people, you might think that's just like so unnatural and weird.

但对他们而言，这就像与生俱来的特质一样自然。

But for them, it's just like how they were born and and how they are.

他们愿意做出这种改变，本身就值得高度肯定。

And there's a lot of credit to be given to them that they are willing to do that.

我知道这听起来很奇怪。

And I know it sounds so strange.

听起来我像是在为反社会人格或反社会特质辩护，但我确实同情这些缺乏同理心的人。

I'm kind of it it does sound like I'm justifying sociopathy or antisocial traits, but I do have empathy for these people that they don't have empathy.

就像，如果你的大脑有一部分真的无法运作，要做出正确决定会非常困难。

Like, it would be very hard to make the right decisions if you just had this part of your brain that just genuinely didn't work.

而要想要激活大脑的那部分功能也会非常困难。

And it would be very hard to then want that part of your brain to be switched on.

有时候我真希望自己没有同理心。

Sometimes I wish I didn't have empathy.

说实话，有时候这种感觉真的很糟糕。

I honestly, it kind of sucks sometimes.

我相信如果你是个非常敏感或富有同理心的人，你会理解我的感受。

I'm sure that if you're a very sensitive or empathetic person you will understand where I'm coming from.

那种希望自己不必关心世界上发生的每件事、每个人和每场悲剧的感觉。

Where it's like you wish you didn't have to care about everything and everyone and every tragedy that was going on in the world.

你希望自己不会吸收他人的情绪，但你确实会，这其实是一种天赋。

You wish you didn't absorb other people's emotions, but you do and that's a gift.

如果你不具备这种能力或不是天生如此，要掌握它会非常困难。

And it would be very hard to take on if you didn't already know how to do that or weren't born that way.

好的，我们先稍作休息，之后将探讨这种病症的实际成因、来源以及之前提到的一些治疗方案。

Okay, we're going to take a short break and then we're going to talk about how this condition actually emerges, where it comes from and what some of those treatment options are that we spoke about before.

非常期待继续深入这个话题。

So super excited to get into it.

请继续关注我们。

Stay with us.

短暂休息后我们马上回来。

We'll be right back after this short break.

二十五年来，我一直在探索治愈的意义，不仅为自己，也与他人同行。

For twenty five years, I've explored what it means to heal, not just for myself, but alongside others.

我是迈克·德拉罗卡。

I'm Mike Della Rocha.

这里是《神圣课程》，一个供反思、成长与集体疗愈的空间。

This is Sacred Lessons, a space for reflection, growth, and collective healing.

你会对那些正在受伤的男性说些什么？

What do you tell men that are hurting right now?

一切都会好起来的，坚持下去，你知道的。

Everything's gonna be okay on the other side, you know, just push through it.

讽刺的是，'精神'这个词的词根其实就是'呼吸'。

And, you know, ironically, the root of the word spirit is breath.

哇。

Wow.

这就是为什么对我们人类而言，最革命性的行为之一就是简单地呼吸。

Which is why one of the most revolutionary acts that we can do as people is just breathe.

伤口的旁边往往藏着礼物。

Next to the wound is there are gifts.

除非你穿越伤痛，否则无法发现这些礼物。

You can't find your gifts unless you go through the wound.

这就是困难之处。

That's the hard thing.

想想看，我要得到我的礼物了。

Think, I'm gonna get my gifts.

我不想经历那些。

I don't wanna go through all that.

你必须穿越生命中的创伤。

You gotta go through the wounds of your life.

聆听他人的濒死体验，他们所说的都是如此。

Listening to other people's near death experiences, and it's all they say.

总而言之，爱就是答案。

In conclusion, love is the answer.

欢迎收听My Kutura播客网络旗下的《神圣课程》节目，您可在iHeartRadio应用、Apple Podcasts或任何播客平台订阅。

Listen to sacred lessons as part of the My Kutura podcast network available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

嘿。

Hey.

我是艾德·赫尔姆斯，欢迎回到《SNAFU》节目，这是我的播客，讲述历史上最严重的失误。

It's Ed Helms, and welcome back to SNAFU, my podcast about history's greatest screw ups.

在新一季节目中，我们每期都会为大家带来一个新的《SNAFU》故事。

On our new season, we're bringing you a new SNAFU every single episode.

32枚遗失的核武器。

32 lost nuclear weapons.

你会想，等等。

You're like, wait.

停一下。

Stop.

什么？

What?

没错。

Yeah.

厄尼·沙克尔顿听起来像七十年代一位可靠的篮球运动员。

Ernie Shackleton sounds like a solid seventies basketball player.

谁现在还戴着护膝。

Who still wore knee pads.

是的。

Yes.

这将包含大量历史、无数笑料和众多嘉宾。

It's gonna be a whole lot of history, a whole lot of funny, and a whole lot of guests.

伟大的保罗·希尔让我感觉很好。

The great Paul Scheer made me feel good.

我当时就想，哇哦。

I'm like, oh, wow.

安吉拉和珍娜，你们能来我太兴奋了。

Angela and Jenna, I am so psyched you're here.

对你来说这样软性加入节目是什么感觉？

What was that like for you to soft launch into the show?

抱歉，珍娜。

Sorry, Jenna.

今天将由我来提问。

I'll be asking the questions today.

我忘了我们上的是谁的播客。

I forgot whose podcast we were doing.

尼克·克罗尔。

Nick Kroll.

希望这个故事足够精彩，能让你扔掉那个三明治。

I hope this story is good enough to get you to toss that sandwich.

那我们就拭目以待吧。

So let's let's let's see how it goes.

请在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或您获取播客的任何平台收听由艾德·赫尔姆斯主持的《SNAFU》第四季。

Listen to season four of SNAFU with Ed Helms on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

我是伊娃·朗格利亚。

I'm Eva Longoria.

我是梅塔·戈麦斯·约翰。

And I'm Maytagomezjohan.

在我们的播客《历史美食家》中，我们将最爱的两样东西——美食与历史——完美融合。

And on our podcast, Hungry for History, we mix two of our favorite things, food and history.

古雅典人曾将名字刻在牡蛎壳上进行投票，他们称这种贝壳为‘陶片’，用来放逐政客。

Ancient Athenians used to scratch names onto oyster shells, and they called these ostracon to vote politicians into exile.

所以英语单词‘ostracize（放逐）’其实与‘oyster（牡蛎）’同源。

So our word ostracize is related to the word oyster.

真的假的？

No way.

让陶片投票制度回归吧！

Bring back the Ostracon.

因为我们节目氛围轻松，朋友们总爱来串门。

And because we've got a very kind of vibe on our show, friends always stop by.

几乎所有进入这片大陆的路线都要经过墨西哥湾。

Pretty much every entry into this side of the planet was through El Garfo de Mexico.

而不是美国那边。

Not the American.

不是美国人。

Not the American.

就像那样。

Like that.

墨西哥的加福。

Garfo de Mexico.

永恒不朽的康蒂努纳奇大使馆。

Continuonacci Embassy forever and ever.

墨西哥在这一刻的进步程度让我震惊。

It blows me away how progressive Mexico was in this in this moment.

他们进行了土地改革。

They had land reform.

他们确立了劳工权利。

They had labor rights.

他们享有教育权利。

They had education rights.

芥菜籽对古埃及人来说极为珍贵，他们常将其放入墓中以备来世使用。

Mustard seeds were so valuable to the ancient Egyptians that they used to place them in their tombs for the after life.

请收听《历史饥渴》节目，它是My Cultura播客网络的一部分，可在iHeart广播应用、苹果播客或任何你获取播客的地方收听。

Listen to hungry for history as part of the My Cultura podcast network available on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

亚特兰大是一种精神。

Atlanta is a spirit.

它不仅仅是一座城市。

It's not just a city.

我其实对出镜没什么兴趣。

I didn't really have an interest of being on air.

我当时上去主要是想试着潜入那栋大楼。

I kinda was up there to just try and infiltrate the building.

克朗克就是在西区的一家俱乐部诞生的。

It's where Cronk was born in a club in the West End.

四星世界。

Four world star.

那时是五月。

It was May.

一个小酒吧孕育了一代说唱明星的地方。

Where a tiny bar birthed a generation of rap stars.

牧师走红网络、HBCU学生们将心碎转化为重生的地方。

Where preachers go viral and students at the HBCU turned heartbreaking to resurrection.

如何让人们相信已经消亡的事物？

How do you get people to believe in something that's dead?

追梦者将好莱坞带到南方，而实干家们用愿景创造黑人财富的地方。

Where Dreamers brought Hollywood to the South and hustlers bring their visions to create black wealth.

没人急着和你建立关系。

Nobody's rushing into relationships with you.

你来自哪里？

Where are you from?

他们想直视你的眼睛。

They wanna look you in the eye.

未来即怀旧之地。

Where the future is nostalgia.

我和我的聊天GPT聊过。

I talked to my chat GPT.

她说，你可是第一位在亚特兰大拥有《黑帮女孩》磁带的女士。

She like, you really the first lady to have a Gangster Girls tape in Atlanta, Georgia.

这就是让你与众不同的地方。

Like, that's what separates you from a lot of people.

我就说，你知道吗？

And I'm like, you know what?

你说得对。

You're right.

亚特兰大从不等待许可。

Atlanta doesn't wait for permission.

它自己打造聚光灯。

It builds its own spotlight.

我就是这么粗鲁

I'm big rude.

让我们带你了解亚特兰大那些标志性时刻背后的故事

Let us guide you through the stories behind Atlanta's most iconic moments.

在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或任何你获取播客的地方收听《亚特兰大之耳》

Listen to Atlanta Ears on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

好的

Okay.

我们继续讨论反社会者这个话题，这可是大家的最爱

We are back talking about sociopaths, everybody's favorite topic.

确实存在患有反社会人格障碍(ASPD)的人就生活在我们中间

So sociopaths, people with ASPD, they do walk among us.

但究竟是什么让他们变成这样？

But what makes them like this?

说实话，直到最近我们才真正搞清楚原因

Because honestly, we actually didn't really know until recently.

我们之前提到过，反社会者（ASPD患者），我知道我一直在交替使用这两个术语。

So something we mentioned before is that sociopaths, ASPD, I know I keep going back and forth between them.

我们就统一用'反社会者'来指代吧。

We'll just say sociopaths.

据信，反社会者缺乏共情能力是环境和社会因素造成的，源于早期经历的学习或条件反射。

Sociopaths, it's believed that their lack of empathy is environmental and social so it was learnt or conditioned from early experiences.

这也与情绪调节能力有关。

It also comes down to emotional regulation.

反社会人格（或称ASPD）研究的关键突破出现在2000年代和2010年代，心理学家终于揭示了这类人群即使想要控制冲动也无法做到的生理机制——即便这种行为会伤害他人。

A pivotal moment for socio sociopathy or ASPD research came in like the 2000s and the 2010s where psychologists were really able to get down to the mechanism that meant that these individuals could not control their impulses even when they wanted to or even when it was hurting people.

神经学研究通过脑部扫描发现，反社会者大脑中涉及情感与自控的区域活动水平极其低下。

And what they found was that studies, neurological studies, found that in the brains of people with sociopathy the regions that were involved in emotion and self control had very, very limited, very reduced activity.

这种情况在前额叶皮层和杏仁核区域尤为明显。

This was particularly in the prefrontal cortex and the amygdala.

这些区域的神经通路基本上处于未发育和闲置状态。

The neural pathways in those areas seemed basically unused and underdeveloped.

这些人在关键时期没有学会如何使用大脑的这些区域。

These people had not learnt at a pivotal point how to use these areas of their brain.

他们的大脑可能出于生存原因或其他原因不需要这些区域或将其关闭了。

Their brain maybe didn't need them or shut them off for survival reasons or for whatever it was.

因此如今作为成年人，他们变得冲动。

And so nowadays as an adult they are impulsive.

他们容易做出反应。

They are reactive.

他们容易情绪爆发。

They are prone to emotional outbursts.

他们的共情能力有所减弱。

They have that reduction in empathy.

双胞胎和基因研究也为这些模式的出现原因提供了一些线索。

Twin and genetic studies also provide some insight into why these patterns might emerge.

研究人员表明，与社会病态相关的特征既受遗传影响，但最终由环境因素激活。

Researchers show that traits associated with sociopathy are influenced both by genetics but they are switched on by environment.

这意味着什么？

So what does that mean?

这意味着许多最终发展出反社会人格障碍或病态人格的人，他们天生就具有这种遗传倾向。

That means that a lot of people who go on to develop ASPD or sociopathy they always were going to have a genetic predisposition.

基本上他们大脑中存在一个与生俱来的开关，而环境中的某些因素将其激活了。

Basically there was a switch in their brain that started off that was always going to be there and then something in the environment turned it on.

但问题是，有些人携带的这种基因可能永远不会被激活。

Now the thing is there are people for whom that gene will never be turned on.

他们过着非常幸福美满的生活。

They have a really great happy life.

他们童年时期非常快乐且备受关爱。

They go through childhood being very happy and being loved.

因此这些反社会特质从未显现出来。

And so these sociopathic traits never emerge.

但当一个人经历了童年创伤、忽视、不稳定的养育方式或霸凌时，这些特质就会被激活。

But it's when someone endured childhood trauma, neglect, inconsistent parenting, bullying that the that basically it switched on.

于是有人出现并说：好了，是时候了。

So someone's come along and gone, alright, time for this.

我们现在要用这个了。

We're gonna use this now.

许多人相信，是的，人们天生如此，但真正成型并受成长环境影响。

Many people believe that yes, people are born with this but it really takes shape and it's influenced by your environment growing up.

你可能会想：为什么这些人就是学不会呢？

What you might be thinking is, you know why can't these people just learn?

因为我提到过，人们可以学会同理心。

Because I've mentioned you know people can learn empathy.

为什么他们就是学不会不去伤害别人呢？

Why can't they just learn not to hurt people?

为什么有这么多人在监狱里或与毒瘾作斗争，却没人及时发现，他们也没能从法律体系的早期错误中吸取教训？

Why are there all these individuals in prison or dealing with addiction that nobody caught soon enough and that didn't learn from their mistakes specifically with the legal system earlier?

我也经常问自己这个问题。

And I also ask myself that question.

答案是大量研究表明，患有这种人格障碍的人甚至不知道自己有这个问题。

The answer is that a lot of research shows that people who have this personality disorder they don't even know that they have it.

这就是马基雅维利型、自恋型或反社会型等人格障碍的棘手之处。

So this is the trick with a lot of personality disorders that are like Machiavellian or narcissistic or sociopathic.

他们就是看不到这一点。

They just don't see it.

他们自我的一部分会保护他们，使他们看不到自己与他人之间的这种差异，或者不认为这种差异很重要。

There's a part of their ego that protects them from seeing this difference between them and other people or seeing that difference as being important.

他们可能会注意到一些模式。

They might notice patterns.

他们可能知道自己经常与人发生冲突。

They might know that they constantly get into fights.

知道自己在维持工作或关系方面有困难，或者总是做出冲动选择。

That they struggle to maintain a job or a relationship or that they're making impulsive choices.

但他们不一定会将这些行为与人格障碍联系起来。

But they don't necessarily connect those behaviors to a personality disorder.