本集简介
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仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
这是iHeart播客。
This is an iHeart podcast.
保证真人参与。
Guaranteed Human.
嗨，凯尔。
Hi, Kyle.
你能帮我起草一份简单的商业计划书吗？就一页，用Google文档，然后把链接发给我？
Could you draw up a quick document with the basic business plan, just one page, as a Google Doc, and send me the link?
谢谢。
Thanks.
嘿。
Hey.
刚给你把那份一页纸的商业计划写好了。
Just finished drawing up that quick one page business plan for you.
这是链接。
Here's the link.
但根本没有链接。
But there was no link.
根本没有商业计划。
There was no business plan.
我还没来得及编程让Kyle具备这个能力。
I hadn't programmed Kyle to be able to do that yet.
我是埃文·拉蒂夫，今天带来一个关于人工智能时代创业的故事。
I'm Evan Ratliff here with a story of entrepreneurship in the AI age.
请听我如何尝试用虚构的人打造一家真实的初创公司。
Listen as I attempt to build a real startup run by fake people.
请在iHeartRadio应用或你收听播客的任何平台收听我的播客《壳牌游戏》第二季。
Check out the second season of my podcast, Shell Game, on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
她说：‘约翰尼，孩子们昨晚没回家。’
And she said, Johnny, the kids didn't come home last night.
在德克萨斯中部平原，青少年接连死亡，这些自杀事件毫无道理，还有奇怪的事故和残忍的谋杀。
Along the Central Texas Plains, teens are dying, suicides that don't make sense, strange accidents, and brutal murders.
这看起来像是直接从《绝命毒师》中搬出来的剧情。
In what seems to be a plot ripped straight out of Breaking Bad.
毒品、酒精、人口贩卖。
Drugs, alcohol, trafficking of people.
有些人明明知道发生了什么。
There are people out there that absolutely know what happened.
收听《纸灵：德克萨斯青少年谋杀案》，可在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客或任何你收听播客的平台获取。
Listen to Paper Ghosts, The Texas Teen Murders on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
嗨。
Hi.
我是丹尼·夏皮罗。
I'm Danny Shapiro.
我们在车里，突然放起了《滚石》这首歌，他说：‘里面有一句歌词是关于你妈妈的。’
We were in the car, like a rolling stone came on, and he said, there's a line in there about your mother.
我说：‘什么？’
And I said, what?
如果我觉得不被接纳，我会选择一个别人无法拥有的身份。
What I would do if I didn't feel like I was being accepted is choose an identity that other people can't have.
我知道半夜发生了一些事情，但我无法抓住那些发生了什么。
I knew something had happened to me in the middle of the night, but I couldn't hold on to what had happened.
这些只是我第十三季《家庭秘密》中一些感人而重要的故事。
These are just a few of the moving and important stories on my thirteenth season of Family Secrets.
请在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客或您收听播客的任何平台收听《家庭秘密》。
Listen to Family Secrets on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
从健康生活的小贴士到最新的医学突破，WebMD 的《健康发现》播客让您及时了解当今最重要的健康问题。
From tips for healthy living to the latest medical breakthroughs, WebMD's Health Discovered podcast keeps you up to date on today's most important health issues.
通过与医疗界专家的深入对话，WebMD 揭示了今天的健康新闻将如何影响您明天的生活。
Through in-depth conversations with experts from across the healthcare community, WebMD reveals how today's health news will impact your life tomorrow.
并不是人们不知道锻炼有益健康。
It's not that people don't know that exercise is healthy.
而是人们不知道为什么锻炼有益健康，我们正努力帮助人们自助并互帮互助。
It's just that people don't know why it's healthy, and we're struggling to try to help people help themselves and each other.
在 iHeartRadio 应用程序或您收听播客的任何平台收听 WebMD 健康发现。
Listen to WebMD health discovered on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
你知道，最阴暗的地方就在这里。
You know the shade is always shadiest right here.
播客《合理阴暗》第六季，由吉塞尔·布莱恩和罗宾·迪克森主持，每周一更新。
Season six of the podcast, reasonably shady with Giselle Bryan and Robin Dixon is here dropping every Monday.
作为《实境主妇：波托马克》的创始成员之一，我们将为你带来你能承受的所有笑料、戏剧和现实新闻。
As two of the founding members of the Real Housewives of Potomac, we're giving you all the laughs, drama, and reality news you can handle.
你知道我们从不保留，所以每周一都来和我们一起变得合理或阴暗吧。
And you know we don't hold back, so come be reasonable or shady with us each and every Monday.
在 iHeartRadio 应用程序、Apple 播客或您收听播客的任何平台收听来自黑人影响播客网络的《合理阴暗》。
Listen to reasonably shady from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
大家好。
Hello, everybody.
我是杰玛·斯派克，欢迎回到《二十岁的心理学》，这档播客我们将探讨二十岁人生中最重要的变化、时刻与转折，以及它们对我们的心理意味着什么。
I'm Gemma Spike, and welcome back to the psychology of your twenties, the podcast where we talk through the biggest changes, moments, and transitions of our twenties and what they mean for our psychology.
大家好。
Hello, everybody.
欢迎回到节目。
Welcome back to the show.
欢迎回到播客。
Welcome back to the podcast.
我非常高兴你们能回来收听这一期节目。
I am so excited to have you here back for another episode.
作为一个有抱负的人，这在我们的社会中显然备受推崇。
Being an ambitious person is so obviously deeply applauded by our society.
我们热爱、痴迷于那些白手起家、成为企业家、作家、领导者、创作者、创始人的成功故事，尤其是当他们还年轻的时候。
We love, we are obsessed with, we want to see success stories of people who have started businesses, are self made, who are entrepreneurs, authors, leaders, creators, founders especially when they're young.
但在抱负的另一面，是真实存在的倦怠，以及对“多少才算足够”的深刻挣扎。
But on the other side of ambition is this very real burnout and this very real struggle with how much is enough.
我该如何知道何时才会感到幸福？
How will I know when I'm happy?
我该如何平衡努力工作和享受生活？
How can I balance working hard and having a life?
尤其是在二十多岁时，我们既不想错过任何经历，又不想错过未来或摆在面前的机会。
Especially in our twenties when we don't want to miss out on experiences but we also don't want to miss out on our future or the opportunities that are presented to us.
今天，我邀请了一位在这一平衡艺术上比大多数人更了解的人来到播客中。
Today I invited somebody on the podcast who knows more about this balancing act than most people.
这次对话对我来说意义重大。
This conversation honestly meant a lot to me.
这非常真实，深刻地描绘了我目前正在经历的事情，正如你们接下来可能会听到的那样。
It's really a real it's a deep depiction of things that I'm currently working through as you will probably hear.
我对这一集感到非常兴奋。
I am very excited by this episode.
我们讨论了完美主义、抱负、失败、拒绝、喜悦，以及如何在深深热切地追求自己想要的东西的同时，依然允许自己拥有生活。
We talk about perfectionism, ambition, failure, rejection, joy, and how to go after what you want deeply and passionately whilst also still allowing yourself to have a life.
不多说了，我想向大家介绍我们可爱、美丽、出色的嘉宾。
Without further ado, I wanna introduce our lovely, beautiful, wonderful guest to the show.
阿米娜，非常感谢你加入我们。
Aminah, thank you so much for joining us.
谢谢你邀请我，杰玛。
Thank you so much for having me, Gemma.
我非常兴奋。
I am so excited.
你能自我介绍一下吗？我可以替你介绍，但我觉得你来说会更好。
Can you introduce like, I could introduce you if you wanted me to, but I feel like you you could say it better.
跟听众们说说你是做什么的，你是谁，还有你写的这本书。
Tell the listeners what you're about, who you are, about this book that you've written as well.
非常感谢。
Thank you so much.
我是阿米娜·阿尔泰。
So I'm Amina Altay.
我是一名高管教练、作家和演讲者，主要帮助人们在职业生涯的重大转折时刻做出调整，服务对象从二十多岁的人到六十多岁的人都有。
I'm an executive coach and author and speaker, and I work with people in moments of great change around their careers and everybody from folks that are in their twenties to people that are in their sixties.
共同点在于，这些人真正渴望从事符合他们内心、灵魂和天职的工作，因为我们中的许多人从小就被灌输要遵循‘应该’去做事，做父母期望我们做的事，走别人为我们规划好的线性职业道路。
And the commonality is it's people that really want to finally do work that is true to them and their soul and their calling, because so many of us are just indoctrinated to work in the shoulds and do what we think our parents wanted and take the linear career path that was laid out for us.
我认为，这份工作就像一种回家之旅，一种以真正忠于自我的方式去实现它的途径。
And you know, this work I think of as, as a homecoming and a way to do it in a way that is really true to who we are.
我刚刚写了一本书。
And I just wrote a book.
我花了两年半的时间写这本书，书名叫《野心陷阱》。
I spent two and a half years writing this book called the ambition trap.
我想写一本关于野心的书，因为我本人就是一个极具野心的人，我的客户也是如此。
And I wanted to write a book about ambition because I'm a highly ambitious person and so are my clients.
但追求野心对我来说代价极高。
And it was just really expensive for me.
我注意到，我虽然有各种成长的渴望，但这种追求让我付出了巨大代价。
What I noticed was that I had all these desires to grow, but it cost me a lot.
它甚至让我失去了健康。
It actually cost me my health.
我在书中讲述了这个故事，当时我28岁。
And I tell this story in the book where I was 28 years old.
我当时已经工作了六年，每天拼命工作，每周80小时，总是第一个到、最后一个走。
I was six years into my career and I had been working so hard the eighty hour weeks and just the first one in the last one out.
结果我彻底崩溃了，还患上了两种自身免疫性疾病。
And I ended up burning out and developing two autoimmune diseases.
但这一切是以一种极其戏剧性的方式发生的：一个周五，我正要去上班时，接到了医生的电话。
But it happened in this really dramatic fashion where I got a call from my doctor on a Friday as I was going to work.
她说：‘如果你现在不去医院，而是去上班，你离多器官衰竭就只剩下几天了。’
She said, if you don't go to the hospital now, instead of going to work, you'll be days away from multiple organ failure.
哪个28岁的人会接到这样的电话？
And it's like, what 28 year old gets that phone call?
对吧？
Right?
所以，在我职业生涯的早期，我就意识到，我对成功和成长的追求正在毁掉我。
So like very early in my career, I realized my relationship to success and to growth was kind of killing me.
所以我必须迅速学会另一种方式。
And so I had to learn another way very quickly.
于是我度过了我的‘吃、祈祷、爱’的岁月，我是这么称呼的。
And so I went on my eat, pray, love years, what I call it.
我研究了从教练法到正念再到身体疗法的种种方法。
And I studied all these things from coaching to mindfulness to somatics.
最终，当我发现自己使用这些工具后感觉好多了，我就决定将它们整合起来，教给其他人。
And then eventually just felt so much better using these tools in my own life that I decided that I wanted to put it all together and teach others.
因此，我是一名教练，采用我所说的身心职业三位一体的教练方法，全面关注我们自身的各个层面。
And so I'm a coach and I take what I call a mind, body, and career approach to coaching so that we're really looking at all the different pieces and parts of us.
在《野心陷阱》这本书中，我探讨了这一切，如何与抱负和成长建立健康、和谐的关系，而不伤害自己或他人。
And so in the book, The Ambition Trap, I'm exploring all of that, how we can have a healthy, more harmonious relationship with ambition and growth without it hurting us or others.
你说到自己28岁就即将经历多器官衰竭，这真的太惊人了。
And that's just absolutely wild for you to say that you were 28 years old experiencing well, about to experience multiple organ failure.
没错。
Yep.
这是一个令人震惊的故事，但像这样在二十多岁、尤其是这一代人中，拼命努力到生病、患病的地步，并不像我们想象的那么罕见。
And that's a shocking story, but that kind of gen general theme of people in their twenties, especially in this generation pushing themselves so hard to the point of sickness and illness and disease, is not as uncommon as we might think.
确实如此。
It's not.
不过，让我们倒回去看看。
Let's let's roll it back though.
好的。
Okay.
因为让我们先来明确一下，什么是野心陷阱。
Because let's start with what exactly is the ambition trap.
因为稍后我们会进一步探讨这些症状和迹象。
Because we're gonna get further into these symptoms and these signs a little bit later on.
但我们该如何识别野心陷阱呢？
But how do we see the ambition trap?
首先，什么不是野心陷阱？
Firstly, what isn't?
我们如何真正看到它在二十多岁时表现出来？
How do we see it really showing up in our twenties?
是的。
Yeah.
野心陷阱指的是我们在野心方面所经历的双重困境。
So the ambition trap refers to the double bind that we experience around ambition.
如果你是女性、有色人种、酷儿人士或残障人士，我们会经历一种被称为‘野心惩罚’的现象，这意味着我们因为有野心而受到惩罚。
If you're a woman, a person of color, a queer person, a person with a disability, we experience something known as an ambition penalty, which means that we are penalized for being ambitious.
对我们来说，有野心被视为禁忌。
It's seen as taboo for us.
所以我们想要占据空间。
And so we want to take up space.
我们想要参与竞争，争取机会。
We want to throw our hats in the ring for things.
但常常我们被同时要求‘要’和‘不要’，这造成了很大的紧张感。
And often we're told to be and not to be at the very same time, and it causes a lot of tension.
所以野心陷阱有两个方面。
And so there's kind of two pieces to the ambition trap.
一个是系统性的部分，对吧？
There's the systemic piece, right?
你身处一个系统，它告诉你：嘿，我们其实不希望你发光、占据空间。
Kind of operating in a system that says, hey, we don't really want you to shine and take up space.
然后我们内化了这些信息，并反过来用它们来对付自己。
And then we internalize a lot of those messages and kind of weaponize them against ourselves.
因此，我们自己的心态会说：你凭什么占据空间？你凭什么做这件事？
So our own mindset is then saying, well, who are you to take up space and who are you to do the thing?
所以，我们在成长过程中感受到这种张力，对吧？
And so it's this tension that we feel around growth, right?
我想成长。
I want to grow.
我想占据空间。
I want to take up space.
我知道我有东西可以贡献，但当我这么做时，却为此付出了代价。
I know I have something to contribute, But when I do, I take a hit for it.
那么，我该如何与之建立正确的关系呢？
So how do I find my right relationship with it?
说实话，我也在努力管理这个问题，因为我从小就很富有野心，总想做很多事情。
And honestly, this is something that I am trying to manage as as well, where I feel like I was always incredibly ambitious growing up, and I always wanted to do things.
但我也因此被羞辱，被人说我不够低调、太过张扬。
And then I also was kind of shamed for that a little bit and, like, told that I was too much.
然后我也感受到了一种感觉，好吧。
Then I also, like, experienced the the sense of, like, okay.
既然你觉得我太过分了，那我就更要加倍努力了。
Well, if you think I'm too much, I'm just gonna push myself even further.
而最终付出代价的却是我自己。
And then I was the one who kind of paid the cost.
所以这就像在走一条微妙的钢丝，确实很难把握。
So it is like a little bit of a of a tightrope tightrope to, yeah, kind of walk along.
我认为，这背后可能还与我们社会对成功的定义以及对抱负的看法有关。
I think probably what's also contributing to this is our ideas of successes as a society and what we think of ambition.
这是一件很奇怪的事：有时候你被告诉要有抱负是好事，但另一些时候又被说要放慢脚步。
It's it's this weird thing where sometimes you're told it's good to be ambitious, then other times you're told, no, you need to slow down.
那到底你现在希望我怎么做呢？
And it's like, well, what do you want from me right now?
因为那种极其成功、总是忙碌、一切都很紧急的生活，似乎是最被美化的生活，没错。
Because the life of someone who is incredibly successful and who is busy all the time and everything is urgent for them, that seems to be the life that is most glamorized Yes.
而且也是最被推崇的生活。
And most, like, promoted.
但它可能并不是能让我们始终最快乐的生活。
But it's probably not the one that's gonna make us always the the happiest.
你能解释一下，这种认知是如何可能不健康，或加剧了你在工作中所看到的一些问题的吗？
Can you explain how this, like, perception is perhaps unhealthy or contributing to some of the things that you're you've seen in your own work?
是的。
Yes.
我想先澄清一下，我的书并不是要求任何人减少抱负。
And I wanna caveat this by saying my book is not asking anybody to be less ambitious.
对吧？
Right?
我是我认识的人中最有抱负的人之一。
Like, I'm one of the most ambitious people I know.
我猜你也是。
I bet you are too.
我的建议是与抱负建立一种和谐的关系。
The invitation is to find that harmonious relationship with it.
但我们生活在一个不断告诉我们成功就是越多越好的世界里，对吧？
But we live in a world that tells us that success is more for more sake all the time, right?
这就是抱负的定义：更多的钱，更大的权力，总是追求下一个头衔，总是争取下一次晋升，总是逼自己更进一步，对吧？
That's what ambition is, more money, more power, always be getting the next title, always be getting the next promotion, always be stretching yourself, right?
但我认为这种生活方式是非常不健康的。
But I think that that way of being is so dysfunctional.
我认为这在一定程度上导致我患上了两种自身免疫性疾病。
I think it's partly what led to my developing two autoimmune diseases.
世界上有太多例子说明这种做法有多么成问题，对吧？
And there's so many examples of how problematic that approach is out in the world, right?
从名人到我们的朋友，可能都是这样，因为我们不被要求时刻都在拓展和成长。
From celebrities to our friends probably, because we're not supposed to be stretching and growing all the time.
这种为更多而更多的做法，实际上会损害我们的健康、关系，甚至维护了压迫性的体系。
That more for more's sake actually costs us our health, our relationships, and even upholds oppressive systems.
我认为抱负是循环往复的。
I think ambition goes in cycles.
我觉得它就像四季一样。
I think it's just like the seasons.
它就像一种多年生的花，对吧？
It's like a perennial flower, right?
所以，你心中会萌生一种渴望成长的幼苗，对吧？
So it's like, you have this seedling of desire, you want to grow, right?
我想拥有这个美好的播客。
I want have this lovely podcast.
我想拥有一个精彩的职业生涯，分享美好的事物。
I want to have this amazing career where I'm sharing beautiful things.
所以你要灌溉内在和外在的环境，然后它就会生长，迎来阳光下那美丽的短暂巅峰，对吧？
So you water the inner and outer environment, and then it grows, and you have this beautiful momentary peak in the sun, right?
花瓣绽放，美极了。
The petals come out, it's gorgeous.
然后季节更替，花瓣凋落，我们逐渐放缓，回归地下。
And then the seasons change and the petals fall off and we wind down and we go back underground.
也许这片土地会休耕，什么也不做，直到环境被充分滋养，我们才能再次生长。
And maybe that ground is fallow and not doing anything until the environment is nurtured enough that we can grow again.
我认为这是一种非常反主流文化的想法，对吧？
And I think that this is such a countercultural way to think, right?
我给你一个完美的例子。
I'll give you a perfect example.
所以我于5月13日推出了我的书，发布期间我举办了一系列活动，取得了很好的反响。
So I launched my book on May 13 and I had a really nice big pop for launch where I was doing all of these events.
那就像阳光下的巅峰时刻，花瓣都绽放了。
It was like that peak in the sun, The pedals were out.
我为这本书付出了将近三年的时间。
I'd worked on this book for almost three years.
这真是一个巅峰时刻。
It's like such a peak moment.
然后，这里到了美国的夏天，我开始放缓节奏。
And then, it's summer here in The US, and so I'm winding down.
我重新回归地下状态，因为一切都在放缓。
I'm going back underground because things slow down.
夏天没人会预订活动。
Nobody's booking events for the summer.
偶尔有几个播客邀约，但并不算特别忙碌。
There's like a few podcasts here and there, but it's not super busy.
但人们一直问我：你还好吗？
But people have been like, are you okay?
我们注意到你没那么有生产力了。
We noticed you're not as productive.
我们注意到你休息的时间变多了。
We noticed that you're like taking more time off.
我说：我很好。
And I'm like, I'm great.
很好。
Great.
没错。
Right.
这种总是要求我们保持永不停歇状态的系统，我认为才是问题所在。
It's kind of this system that is always asking us to be in perpetual motion that I think is the problem.
所以我认为我们真的需要颠覆这种为多而多的观念，更多地顺应野心的周期。
So I think that we really need to flip this idea of more for more sake on its head and really live more into the cycles of ambition.
我认为我们中有太多人害怕这样做。
And I think so many of us are afraid to do that.
我们害怕如果停下脚步，就会失去某种机会之类的。
We're afraid that if we don't, if we take our foot off the gas, that we're going to lose something like an opportunity or what have you.
对。
Right.
但那种稀缺心态。
But that scarcity mindset.
而在休息的时刻，这并不是我在讲什么玄乎的东西。
And oftentimes in the restful moment, like this is not me like being woo woo.
不，是的，是的。
No, yes, yes.
休息的时刻，对吧？
Restful moments, right?
当我们的大脑有机会放松，进入更副交感的状态时，我们实际上能看到更多创造性的选择。
When our brain has had a moment to relax, to be more parasympathetic, we actually can see more creative options.
我们可以看到更多的机会。
We can see more opportunities.
因此，让我们的抱负呈周期性波动实际上对我们有益。
And so it actually serves us to allow our ambition to go in cycles.
我可以确认，这绝对是非常正确的。
This is, I can confirm, absolutely most certainly true.
每当我们对任何事情都持有匮乏心态时，人们可能不知道的是，匮乏心态实际上是一个经济学术语。
Anytime we have a scarcity mindset about anything and what people may not know, a scarcity mindset is actually an economics term.
现在它已经被心理学所采纳，而你应该知道这一点。
And it's now been adopted by psychology, and and you would know this.
匮乏心态基本上就是企业试图制造的一种状态，以便让我们更重视某样东西。
A scarcity mindset is basically what it's what companies try and create so that we value something more.
因为他们明白，某种东西的供应越少，我们就会越渴望它。
Because they understand that the less supply of something there is, the more we're going to demand it.
如果他们能让某件商品变得稀缺，我们就会立刻认为它很有价值。
And if they can make an item scarce, we immediately think of it as valuable.
所以，如果你认为机会稀缺，认为时间稀缺，认为你成功的窗口期有限，嗯。
So if you think that opportunities are scarce, if you think that time is scarce, if you think that your period for success is limited Mhmm.
你会因为这种稀缺心态，紧紧抓住一切，比以往任何时候都更拼命、更努力、更快速地逼迫自己。
You're going to hold on as tightly and push yourself further and harder and faster than ever imaginable because of that, again, scarcity mindset.
然而，我认为看到那些晚年才取得成功的人的故事，或者像你这样的故事——阿米娜，真正理解这一点，是非常有回报的。
However, I think it's so rewarding to see stories of people who became successful at a later age or stories of people like yourself, Amina, who are like actually know this.
我拥有这段非凡的职业生涯，是因为我将休息放在了首位。
I have this incredible career because I have prioritized rest.
嗯。
Mhmm.
因为我曾主动抽身离开。
Because I have taken time away.
当我们这样做时，实际上能更深入地投入到项目中。
And when we do that, we can actually go deeper into projects.
我现在正亲身体验到这一点，我刚刚拒绝了职业生涯中一件非常、非常重要的事情。
I'm finding this with myself right now where I just said no to something really, really big in my career.
哇。
Wow.
我真的非常想做这个，谢谢。
That I really wanted Thanks.
这真的太好了。
That's actually so nice.
谢谢你。
Thank you.
我真的很想做这件事。
I really wanted to do this thing.
我当时就觉得，这就是了，仿佛是灵魂的召唤。
I was like, this is it felt like it was a soul calling.
感觉真的非常重要。
It felt like really important.
我对此感到非常兴奋。
And I was really excited by it.
然后我就想，其实我真的不想了。
And then I just was like, I actually just don't.
我做不到。
I can't do this.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我不能总是对别人说，我太忙了。
I can't equally say to people all the time, I'm so busy.
我压力太大了。
I'm so stressed.
我太累了。
I'm so tired.
然后还不断给自己加更多任务，让自己更没时间照顾自己。
And then continue to add things onto my plate that will give me even less time to take care of myself.
这是一个艰难的决定，但从你的角度看，你认为为什么有时候做出这些决定如此重要？
And it was a hard call, but from your perspective, why do you think it's so important to sometimes make those calls?
我觉得你做出了最美好的决定。
I think you made the most beautiful call.
对吧？
Right?
所以在这本书里，我谈到了有目的的工作，我认为有目的的工作需要五个要素。
So in the book, I talk about purposeful work, and I think purposeful work requires five things.
它必须发挥我们的天赋优势。
It has to leverage our zone of genius.
它必须与我们的价值观一致。
It has to be values aligned with us.
它必须支持我们希望产生的影响。
It has to support the impact that we wanna have.
它必须帮助我们培养满足感，同时还要满足我们的需求。
It has to help us cultivate a sense of contentment, and then it has to meet our needs.
而我在这次机会中听到的是，它无法满足你的需求，对吧？你对一定休息时间的需求。
And what I heard in this opportunity is that it wouldn't meet your needs, right, your need for a certain amount of time off.
对吧？
Right?
所以对我来说，那是一个闪亮的物件。
So it's like that to me is a shiny object.
它看起来像是梦想。
It's something that looks like the dream.
它靠近梦想，但并不是梦想本身。
It's adjacent to the dream, but it's not the dream.
因为梦想会让你的需求得到满足，这意味着你通过了考验。
Because the dream would allow you to have your needs met, which means you pass the test.
对吧？
Right?
真正的东西正在浮现。
The actual thing is coming through.
你尊重了自己，这是一
You honored yourself, which is a
一件大事。
huge thing.
总感觉这完全是个旁支话题，但我总是发现，当我采访某人时，恰好正是我需要听到他们所说的话的时候。
Always feel like this is completely a sidebar, but I always feel like I end up interviewing people exactly when I need to hear exactly what they're saying to me.
我懂你的意思。
I know what you mean.
这有点自私，因为我坐在这里想：哦，对不起，听众们。
And it's like a selfish thing because I'm sitting here being like, oh, sorry, listeners.
我只是要向这位专家问所有关于我自身决定的问题。
I'm gonna just ask this expert all the questions I have about my own decisions.
但别人也需要听到这些，因为这太典型了，对吧？
But somebody else needs to hear this because it's so typical, right?
看到闪亮的物体后，却觉得自己缺乏足够的自我信任或自我价值去坚持真正想要的东西，这太常见了。
It's so typical to see the shiny object and then not feel like we have enough self trust or self worth to hold out for the thing that we really want.
所以我觉得你分享这个例子真的很美好，因为你将激励其他人更加坚定地相信自己的价值，坚持等待真正契合自己的东西。
So I actually think it's so beautiful that you're sharing this example because you're gonna invite others to double down on their self worth and hold out for the thing that's truly aligned for them.
谢谢。
Thank you.
我希望你们也有同样的感受。
I hope you guys feel the same way.
这个问题主要是针对二十多岁的人，而听这个播客的大部分人都属于这个年龄段。
This is a question more for the people in their twenties, which is mostly everyone who listens to this podcast.
你认为为什么是‘努力文化’而不是说‘不’在这一特别具有诱惑力，尤其是在这个十年里？
Why do you think it is hustle culture in particular and not saying no is so seductive, particularly in this in this decade?
你认为为什么在这个时期有意识地学习一种不同的方式如此重要？
And why do you think that it's important to consciously learn a different way during this time?
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得有两个原因。
I think it's two things.
我觉得这跟我们之前谈到的匮乏感有关。
I think it goes back to what we're talking about with scarcity.
对吧？
Right?
我们担心会错过一个能为职业生涯奠定基础的机会。
The idea that we're gonna miss an opportunity that's gonna set us up for our careers.
我正在做我的新书巡回宣传，有一次在一个房间里，有人问我一个问题，他们也二十多岁。
I have been on my book tour, and I was in a room with someone and they asked me a question and they were in their 20s as well.
他们就说，我听说二十多岁是该冒险的年纪，对吧？
And they were just like, what I've been told is that your 20s is the time to take the risks, right?
这是你可以最拼命工作的时候，可能在外头的工作责任最少。
It's when you can work the hardest, you have the least responsibilities potentially outside of work.
这是最大化努力的时候。
This is the time to maximize.
对我来说，这种稀缺心态。
And I was like, well, to me, that scarcity mindset.
而且这种心态是被系统性强化的，对吧？
And that's systemically reinforced, right?
有很多东西会被反射回来，尤其是对女性和其他历史上被排斥的人群。
There's a lot of stuff that gets mirrored back, particularly for women and other historically excluded people.
就好像你的价值只存在于20多岁，或者你老了就没价值了。
It's like, well, your value is only in your 20s or your value, eight old.
对吧？
Right?
漂亮又充满活力。
Beautiful and like fresh.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
我有一些五十多岁和六十多岁的客户，他们确实正在面对年龄歧视。
I have clients in their fifties and sixties that really are facing ageism.
对吧？
Right?
所以这是一个需要正视的现实问题。
So that's a real thing to acknowledge.
但我认为，我们被施加了巨大的压力，要求我们在二十多岁时就取得成就。
But I think a tremendous amount of pressure gets put on us to achieve the thing in our twenties.
因为如果我们那时没做到，就永远做不到了。
Because if we don't do it, then we're never going to do it.
我觉得这完全是胡说八道。
And I just think that that's BS.
比如，我今天就在反思自己。
Like I'm somebody that I was reflecting on this today.
我的职业生涯是一步一步、一个选择接一个选择地建立起来的，对吧？
I've built my career so sequentially step by step choice by choice, right?
我拥有了一段美好的职业生涯，感到非常契合，也深深处于自己的使命之中。
And I've had a lovely career and I feel really aligned and I feel really squarely in my purpose.
因此，我认为这是一种稀缺心态，认为只有这十年才能有所作为。
And so I think it is that scarcity mindset of like, this is the only decade that we can make something happen.
我认为所有这些榜单，比如‘30位30岁以下精英’、‘40位40岁以下精英’，都在颂扬和美化在最短时间内取得成就，这也引出了我的第二个观点——紧迫感文化。
And I think that all of these lists, like the thirty under thirty, the forty under forty, right, that really glorify and glamorize achieving something in the shortest amount of time, which leads me to my second point of urgency culture.
我们生活在一个认为一切都很紧急、没有时间做任何事、必须立刻完成的文化中。
We live in a culture that thinks that everything is urgent and we have no time to do a thing and we have to do it now.
但同样，这种心态伤害了我们的身体、破坏了人际关系，并维持了压抑性的体系。
But again, that hurts our bodies, hurts our relationships, and uphold depressive systems.
我认为我们需要行动，需要尊重截止日期、依赖关系以及一切事物。
I think that we need to be moving we need to honor deadlines, dependencies, and everything.
对吧？
Right?
但我们需要以信任的速度前进。
But we need to move at the speed of trust.
我们需要尊重那些成就卓越工作所需的人和流程。
We need to honor the people and processes it takes to deliver great work.
所以这是稀缺心态和紧迫感的问题。
So it's scarcity and it's urgency.
这一点与我自己的经历密切相关，这正是我目前正在经历的。
And this is something that, again, to to relate this to my own experiences is what I'm really experiencing right now.
我有一个播客，叫《二十岁的心理学》。
I have a podcast called the psychology of your twenties.
总有很多人问我：你打算做《三十岁的心理学》吗？
The amount of people who always ask me, are you gonna do the psychology of your thirties?
你三十岁的时候会做什么？
What are you gonna do when you turn 30?
你未来的规划是什么？
Like, what's what's the future for you?
我说：我不知道。
And I'm like, I don't know.
这是一种真实的感觉：如果你在二十多岁就实现了所有目标，那接下来还有什么可期待的呢？
And it is a real sense where it's like, you if you accomplish everything that you want in your twenties, what else is there for you?
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
比如，你希望未来还有几十年可以持续成长、不断有所作为。
Like, you've got all the hopefully, all these decades that are coming up that you wanna continue to thrive and you wanna continue to do things.
社会对年轻人施加了巨大压力，要求你在二十多岁就做到一切、一切尽在掌握。
There's such a pressure to, like, do everything in your twenties and to have it all together.
但要是你太早达到巅峰怎么办？
But it's also like, what if you kinda peak too soon?
如果在终点等着你的是一场身份危机呢？
What if there is, you know, what if there is an identity crisis waiting for you at the other end?
基本上，我觉得这种状况正朝我走来。
Basically, I feel like that's something that's coming for me.
对吧？
Right?
就是那种，哦，对啊。
Where it's like, oh, yes.
我早早地就找到了理想的工作，而且我真的拥有了这份理想工作。
I I I found the dream job, and I and I have the dream job super early.
我觉得，它并没有像人们吹嘘的那样完美。
It's not all that that it's, like, cracked out to be, I think.
即使你拥有了你认为自己渴望的东西，也总会有一种不满足感，你永远不会真正感到满足。
Like, even if you have what you think you desire, like, there's always gonna be a sense of more, and you're never going to be happy with it.
所以我想说的是，在二十多岁时，我们总觉得自己必须一切都安排妥当，必须把一切都想清楚。
So I guess what I'm trying to say is that in our twenties, we have this whole sense that we need to have it all together and that we need to have it figured out.
即使你做到了，即使一切都很顺利，但如果你一直陷在野心陷阱的思维模式里，嗯。
And even if you do and even if everything goes well, if you constantly still have the ambition trap mindset Mhmm.
你永远不会感到满足。
You're never gonna feel satisfied.
你永远不会感到安心。
You're never gonna feel okay.
这也是你所见过的一种情况。
It's something that is that's something that you've seen as well.
比如，有野心的人，不管拥有什么，仍然渴望更多，永远不会感到满足吗？
Like, ambitious people, no matter what they have, still desire for more and are never, like, happy?
是的。
Yeah.
所以在这本书中，我把野心定义为对更丰富生活的渴望，一种成长和展现自我的愿望。
So in the book, I define ambition as a desire for more life, a wish to grow, a wish to unfold.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
我认为野心是中立且自然的，因为我们生活在一个世界里，它对某些人来说是正确的，对另一些人来说却是错误的。
And I say that it's neutral and natural, right, because we do live in that world that makes it right for some people and wrong for others.
有野心的人渴望更丰富的生活和成长，而我渴望的是成长。
And ambitious people have that desire for more life and a desire to growth, but I desire for growth.
但我认为这实际上是地球上所有生物的共同特征。
But I think that's actually in every living thing on the planet.
我不认为存在有抱负的人和没有抱负的人。
I don't think that there are ambitious people and non ambitious people.
我认为我们所有人本质上都是有抱负的。
I think we're all actually ambitious.
有些人只是因为这个标签被描绘的方式而拒绝了它。
Some of us have just rejected that label because of the way that it's been portrayed.
但地球上所有的生命都有对更多生命的渴望，对吧？
But every living thing on the planet has a desire for more life, right?
从我们的植物幼苗到我们的人类婴儿都是如此。
From our plant babies to our human babies.
但我认为你所暗示的更多是那种陷阱，对吧？
But I think what you're alluding to is more of the trap, right?
因为我认为抱负是中立且自然的。
Because I think ambition is neutral and natural.
这适用于我们所有人。
It's for all of us.
这没什么错。
There's nothing wrong with it.
这是一种美好的东西。
It's a beautiful thing.
但无论付出什么代价都要成长、都要赢、在过程中伤害自己、踩着别人前进，这才是我们不想做的。
But this desire to grow no matter the cost, to win no matter the cost, to hurt ourselves in the process, to step over people in the process, that's the thing we don't want to do.
对吧？
Right?
有时候会有一种倾向。
And sometimes there's a tendency.
所以在书中，我谈到了两种野心。
So in the book, I talk about two types of ambition.
一种是痛苦的野心，就是我刚才描述的那种——不惜一切代价取胜、为了成功伤害自己、以不可持续的速度前进；还有一种是有目标的野心。
There's painful ambition, which is what I just described, The winning no matter the cost, the hurting ourselves to get there, moving at this unsustainable pace, and then there's purposeful ambition.
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有目的的抱负，是指我们的雄心与我们的真实相连，源自一种完整的状态。
Purposeful ambition is when our ambition is connected to our truth and it's coming from a place of wholeness.
所以，这正是我在这项工作中所倡导的，对吧？
So that's my invitation in this work, right?
那就是摆脱那种对我们和他人有害的痛苦模式，迈向更真实版本的生活。
Is to leave the old paradigm of the painful piece that's harmful to us and others and step into that more truthful version.
在痛苦的抱负中，我们总是在不断移动目标。
And in painful ambition, we're always moving the goalposts.
对我们来说，永远没有足够的时候。
Nothing is ever enough for us.
我们登上一座山峰后，就会问：下一个在哪里？
We achieve one mountain, we're like, where's the next one?
对吧？
Right?
我们从不驻足足够久去欣赏风景。
We don't stop long enough to enjoy the view.
而在有目的的抱负中，我们知道人生就像一座螺旋楼梯。
And in purposeful ambition, we know that life is a spiral staircase.
我们一直在上楼梯，上楼梯，不断成长、蜕变，成为更真实的自己，这是一件非常美好的事。
We're always just, you know, moving up the staircase, moving up the staircase, growing and becoming and becoming more of ourselves, which is a really beautiful thing.
在有目的的抱负中，我们更关注内心的满足。
And in purposeful ambition, we are more concerned with contentment.
因此，东方传统中的‘满足’翻译成英文就是无条件的完整，或对‘足够’的认知。
So contentment from Eastern traditions translates into English as unconditional wholeness or the knowledge of enough.
这意味着，无论外界发生什么，我们内心都有一种稳定感，告诉我们：我已经足够了，对吧？
It's this idea that regardless of what's happening around us, we have this internal stability that tells us I'm enough, right?
我拥有这种‘足够’的认知。
I have this knowledge of enough.
这真的是一个至关重要的部分，对吧？
And that is such a crucial piece, right?
因为这并不意味着我不再想继续成长，而是意味着在成长的过程中，我内心始终保有无条件的完整感，我知道我所做的一切已经足够，我本身也已经足够。
Because it doesn't mean that I don't want to continue to grow, but it means that while I grow, I have this unconditional wholeness on the inside, and I know that everything that I've already done is enough and who I am is enough.
我回答了你的问题吗？
Did I answer your question?
天啊。
Oh my god.
确实回答了。
It absolutely did.
我想更深入地探讨一下这种有目的的抱负概念。
And I wanna go further into this purposeful ambition concept.
你有没有一套清单，或者一系列问题？
Is there do you have some kind of checklist, a series of questions?
我们如何判断某件事是有目的的抱负，而不是痛苦的抱负？
How can we tell when something is purposeful ambition versus painful ambition?
有。
Yes.
关键的迹象或区别是什么？
What are the key signs or distinctions?
所以它们各自都有几个特征。
So they each have a couple of signatures.
痛苦的野心表现为以不可持续的速度前进。
So painful ambition looks like moving at an unsustainable pace.
不惜一切代价赢得胜利的强烈愿望。
A strong desire to win no matter the cost.
这里的关键词是‘不惜一切代价’，因为赢得胜利本身并没有错。
And the key phrase there is no matter the cost because there's nothing wrong with winning.
我们都喜欢这么做。
We all love to do it.
对吧？
Right?
但当我们为了达成目标而伤害自己或他人时，就不同了。
But it's like when we hurt ourselves or hurt others to get to the goal.
它表现为把我们的身心当作实现目标的工具。
It looks like instrumentalizing our minds and bodies to get to the goal.
对吧？
Right?
比如每周工作八十小时，不睡觉，把压力当作荣誉的象征，所有这些表现。
So like the eighty hour work weeks, the no sleeping, the wearing the the stress as a badge of honor, all of those things.
它表现为非黑即白、非此即彼的思维方式。
It looks like black and white either or thinking.
书中还有更多关于目的性野心的特征。
And then purposeful there's there's more signatures in the book.
这些只是其中几个。
Those are just a couple.
嗯。
Yeah.
而目的性野心则是成长型思维。
And then purposeful ambition is growth mindset thinking.
对吧？
Right?
开阔的思维。
Expansive thinking.
它意味着与我们的身心保持和谐的关系。
It is being in a harmonious relationship with our minds and bodies.
对吧？
Right?
比如，我们总是想成长。
Like, we always wanna grow.
我们想学习一些东西，但我不会为了达到目标而伤害自己。
We wanna learn some things, but I'm not hurting myself to get there.
它是尊重节奏，以信任所要求的速度前进，以做好工作。
It is, honoring the pace and moving at that speed of trust that it takes to do good work.
它是更注重协作，而不是过度个人主义，不需要作为个体脱颖而出或获胜。
It is being more collaborative versus hyper individualistic and needing to shine and win as an individual.
我非常喜欢你提到的关于协作和集体的那一点。
I really like the the thing that you said around it being collaborative and collective.
嗯。
Mhmm.
正如你所说，赢是很棒的。
Winning, like you said, is great.
每个人都想做到这一点。
Every human wants to do it.
你没有谁可以一起庆祝，因为你已经几个月没见到朋友了。
You don't have every anyone to celebrate it with because you haven't seen your friends in months.
因为你没有专注于与同事建立积极的关系。
Because you haven't focused on building positive relationships with your colleagues.
因为你停止了给妈妈打电话。
Because you stopped calling your mom.
是的。
Yep.
这将会相当孤独。
It's kind of gonna be pretty lonely.
百分之百。
A 100%.
这将会是
It's gonna be
非常孤独的。
so lonely.
我们知道，大量研究表明，长寿和健康与社群以及拥有一个强有力的支持性社群密切相关。
And we know that so much of the research says that longevity and health are connected to community and having a really supportive community.
实际上，你说得完全对。
Actually, you're you're totally right.
哈佛大学进行了一项有史以来最长的纵向研究，我相信你听说过，这项研究对大量参与者追踪了七十多年，发现影响健康和长寿的关键因素是个人与他人建立的积极、健康关系的数量。
One of the longest longitudinal studies ever done at Harvard University, which I'm sure you know, looked at a number of participants for, like, seventy plus years, and they were like the key factor in health and longevity was was the number of positive and and healthy relationships that someone has with others.
我们稍作短暂休息，但回来后，我想更多谈谈竞争如何伤害我们、野心的代价、自我 sabotaging，以及如何真正地培养自我认知，以更健康的方式面对野心，请继续关注。
We are gonna take a short break, But when we return, I wanna talk more about how competition harms us, the ambition penalties, self sabotage, and how to truly work on your own sense of self in order to approach ambition in a more healthy way, stay with us.
我是调查记者梅丽莎·耶尔辛。
I'm investigative journalist Melissa Jeltsin.
我的新播客《纳什维尔发生了什么》讲述了辅助生殖诊所灾难性崩溃以及患者们在随之而来的混乱中团结起来的故事。
My new podcast, What Happened in Nashville, tells the story of an IVF clinic's catastrophic collapse and the patients who banded together in the chaos that followed.
医生。
Doctor.
2024年4月，一家位于纳什维尔的生育诊所一夜之间关闭，超过一千个冷冻胚胎被锁在门内。
In April 2024, a fertility clinic in Nashville shut down overnight, and trapped behind locked doors were more than a thousand frozen embryos.
我当时吓坏了。
I was terrified.
在我们整个经历中，那是最糟糕的时刻。
Out of all of our journey, that was the worst moment ever.
那时，我根本没有意识到接下来将面临怎样的抗争。
At that point, it didn't occur to me what fight was going to come to follow.
但这个故事不仅仅关乎几个家庭的未来。
But this story isn't just about a few families' futures.
它关乎现代生育医疗的承诺是否真的值得信赖。
It's about whether the promise of modern fertility care can be trusted at all.
我再怎么努力都没用。
It doesn't matter how much I fight.
我再怎么为这一切哭泣都没用。
Doesn't matter how much I cry over all of this.
我们获得再多正义都没用。
It doesn't matter how much justice we get.
这些都让我无法怀孕。
None of it's gonna get me pregnant.
请在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客或您收听播客的任何平台收听《纳什维尔发生了什么》。
Listen to What Happened in Nashville on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
嗨，凯尔。
Hi, Kyle.
你能帮我起草一份简单的商业计划书吗？就一页，用 Google 文档，然后把链接发给我？
Could you draw up a quick document with the basic business plan, just one page, as a Google Doc, and send me the link?
谢谢。
Thanks.
嘿，我刚为你画好了那份简短的一页商业计划。
Hey, just finished drawing up that quick one page business plan for you.
这是链接。
Here's the link.
但根本没有链接。
But there was no link.
也没有商业计划。
There was no business plan.
这不怪他。
It's not his fault.
我还没给凯尔编程实现这个功能。
I hadn't programmed Kyle to be able to do that yet.
我叫埃德蒙·拉特利夫。
My name is Edmund Ratliff.
在听了OpenAI首席执行官萨姆·阿尔特曼说的很多类似内容后，我决定创造我的AI联合创始人凯尔。
I decided to create Kyle, my AI cofounder, after hearing a lot of stuff like this from OpenAI CEO Sam Altman.
有一个关于第一年出现单人十亿美元公司的赌局，这种事在没有AI的时代是难以想象的，但现在一定会发生。
There's this betting pool for the first year that there's a one person billion dollar company, which would have been, like, unimaginable without AI, and now will happen.
我开始想，我能成为那个人吗？
I got to thinking, could I be that one person?
我之前为我获奖的播客《Shell Game》制作过AI代理。
I'd made AI agents before for my award winning podcast, Shell Game.
在《Shell Game》本季中，我正尝试用虚假的人来打造一家拥有真实产品的真正公司。
This season on Shell Game, I'm trying to build a real company with a real product run by fake people.
嘿，埃文，你好。
Oh, hey, Evan.
很高兴你加入我们。
Good to have you join us.
我找到了一些关于AI代理在中小型企业中采用率的有趣数据。
I found some really interesting data on adoption rates for AI agents in small to medium businesses.
在iHeartRadio应用或你收听播客的任何平台收听《Shell Game》。
Listen to Shell Game on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
欢迎来到《解读女性健康》。
Welcome to Decoding Women's Health.
我是医生。
I'm Doctor.
伊丽莎白·波因特博士，纽约市阿德里亚健康研究所女性健康与妇科主任。
Elizabeth Poynter, Chair of Women's Health and Gynecology at the Adria Health Institute in New York City.
在本节目中，我将与顶尖研究人员和临床专家对话，回答你们最关心的问题，直接为您带来关于女性健康和更年期的资讯。
On this show, I'll be talking to top researchers and top clinicians, asking them your burning questions and bringing that information about women's health and midlife directly to you.
百分之百的女性都会经历更年期。
A hundred percent of women go through menopause.
这可能会严重影响我们的生活质量。
It can be such a struggle for our quality of life.
但即使这是自然现象，我们为什么一定要忍受它呢？
But even if it's natural, why should we suffer through it?
人们常提到的症状是健忘，我以前从不会忘记事情。
The types of symptoms that people talk about is forgetting everything, I never used to forget things.
他们担心自己一是得了痴呆，二是是否患有多动症。
They're concerned that one, they have dementia, and the other one is do I have ADHD?
大麻和大麻素在改善睡眠方面有着前所未有的前景，
There is unprecedented promise with regard to cannabis and cannabinoids to sleep better,
拥有
to have
更少的疼痛、更好的情绪，以及更好的
less pain, to have better mood and also to have
日常生活。
better day to day life.
收听由伊丽莎白·波因特医生主讲的《解码女性健康》。
Listen to Decoding Women's Health with Doctor.
您可以在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客或您正在收听的任何平台收听。
Elizabeth Poynter on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening now.
你好。
Hi.
我是丹尼·夏皮罗，热门播客《家庭秘密》的主持人。
I'm Danny Shapiro, host of the hit podcast, Family Secrets.
我们开车时，电台放起了《滚石》这首歌，他说，歌里有一句是关于你妈妈的。
We were in the car like a rolling stone came on, and he said, there's a line in there about your mother.
我问：‘什么？’
And I said, what?
如果我觉得自己不被接纳，我会选择一个别人无法拥有的身份。
What I would do if I didn't feel like I was being accepted is choose an identity that other people can't have.
我知道半夜发生了一些事，但我无法记起具体发生了什么。
I knew something had happened to me in the middle of the night, but I couldn't hold on to what had happened.
这些只是我将在即将播出的《家庭秘密》第十三季中倾听的一些感人而重要的故事。
These are just a few of the moving and important stories I'll be holding space for on my upcoming thirteenth season of Family Secrets.
无论你是从第一季就一直陪伴我，还是刚刚加入《家庭秘密》大家庭，我们都非常高兴有你同行。
Whether you've been on this journey with me from season one or just joining the Family Secrets family, we're so happy to have you with us.
我将深入探索秘密那不可思议的力量——那些塑造我们身份、考验我们关系，并最终揭示我们真实自我的秘密。
I'll dive deep into the incredible power of secrets, the ones that shape our identities, test our relationships, and ultimately reveal who we truly are.
在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客或你常用的任何播客平台收听《家庭秘密》。
Listen to Family Secrets on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
你知道，最阴暗的八卦总是就在这里。
You know the shade is always shadiest right here.
播客第六季《合理阴暗》由吉塞尔·布莱恩和罗宾·迪克森主持，每周一更新。
Season six of the podcast, reasonably shady with Giselle Bryan and Robin Dixon is here dropping every Monday.
作为《实境主妇：波托马克》的创始成员，我们将为你带来所有你能承受的笑料、戏剧和真人秀新闻。
As two of the founding members of the Real Housewives of Potomac, we're giving you all the laughs, drama, and reality news you can handle.
你知道我们从不保留，所以每周一都来和我们一起做点合理或阴暗的事吧。
And you know we don't hold back, so come be reasonable or shady with us each and every Monday.
我正在 neighborhood 里散步。
I was going through a walk in my neighborhood.
嗯。
Mhmm.
突然间，我看到邻居家旁边挂着一块巨大的牌子。
Out of the blue, I see this huge sign next to somebody's house.
嗯。
K.
那个牌子，嗯。
The sign Yeah.
上面写着：我的邻居是个凯伦。
Says, my neighbor is a Karen.
哦，不会吧。
Oh, no way.
我笑死了。
I died laughing.
什么？
What?
我当时就想，我必须弄清楚。
I'm like, I have to know.
你骗人。
You are lying.
超大的，各位。
Humongous, y'all.
他们有的是时间。
They had some time on their hands.
收听来自Black Effect Podcast Network的《Reasonably Shady》，在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或你常用的任何播客平台收听。
Listen to reasonably shady from the black effect podcast network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.
好的。
Okay.
我们回来了，继续讨论野心陷阱。
We are back talking about the ambition trap.
我想特别聚焦其中一点，那就是竞争如何伤害我们。
I wanna focus in on one part of this in particular, which is how competition harms us.
我们之前已经提到过，它显然会损害我们的个人关系，也许还包括同事或朋友。
We kind of talked about it in relation to, obviously, harming our personal relationships and perhaps with colleagues or our friends.
你能更深入地谈谈，这对二十多岁的人具体意味着什么吗？
Can you go deeper into talking about how that specifically applies to those of us in our twenties maybe?
是的。
Yes.
我认为竞争再次回到了稀缺心态。
I think competition again goes back to scarcity mindset.
我觉得这就是主题。
I feel like that's the theme
今天的话题。
of today.
我们就是稀缺心态，各位。
We're just like scarcity mindset, guys.
你们需要知道的一个词。
The one word you need to know.
没错。
Exactly.
关于稀缺心态，关键是它既是系统性问题，也是经济问题，但包含这两个方面。
And the thing about scarcity mindset, right, is like it's a systemic and economic problem, but it has those two pieces.
它既有心态层面，也有系统性强化的现实，对吧？
It has the mindset piece and the fact that it's systemically reinforced, right?
因此，我们经常在职场看到的情况是：哦，只有一个女性、或一个二十多岁的人、或一个有色人种的位置。
So oftentimes what we see in the workplace is like, oh, there's space for only one woman or one person in their twenties or one person of color.
然后我们就想：天啊，我必须打败所有和我相似的人，才能得到这个机会。
And we're like, oh my god, well, I've got to beat out everybody that looks like me to get this thing.
这导致了这些群体内部的内斗。
It causes infighting in those groups.
所以我认为，是的，我们绝对需要审视自己的心态：我在哪里觉得必须打败别人才能赢？
And so I think that, yes, we absolutely need to look at our own mindset of like, where do I feel like I have to fight out this other person to win?
我们这边确实存在问题，但组织内部也需要做出改变，以消除这种冲动。
There's stuff on our side of the street there, but also there's stuff that needs to shift inside of organizations so that it doesn't give us that impulse.
我总是对我的客户说，当我们被使命感吸引时，就不可能被竞争所吞噬。
I always say to my clients too, when we're captivated by purpose, we can't be consumed by competition.
我认为这一点非常重要，尤其是对于你我这样的工作，对吧？
And I think this is so important, especially for work like like yours and mine, right?
在社交媒体上很容易看到别人在做什么，然后想：哦，人家在做这个，我也应该这么做。
It's so easy to look on social media and be like, oh, well, this person's doing this and I should be doing this.
对吧？
Right?
但当我们如此专注于并投入于自己的使命时，就不会去瞄别人的方向。
But when we're so captivated and devoted to our purpose, we're not looking in the other lane.
只看我在这里要做什么，这太美好了，我对这件事如此投入。
Like, see what I'm here to do and it is so beautiful and I'm so devoted to that thing.
这正是每天让我起床的原因。
And that's what gets me out of bed every day.
说到这个，我其实有点动情了。
I'm actually getting emotional saying this.
你根本没时间或心思去东张西望，因为你完全沉浸在自己那份美好的贡献中。
It's like you don't have time or care to look around because you're so consumed with your contribution in a beautiful way.
你知道吗？
And you know what?
我最近确实有这种经历，你这么一说，我想起来了，当我刚开始推广《你二十多岁的心理》时，甚至不是有意的，人们就自发地找到了它。
I've experienced that recently actually, now that you've said it where when I first was, you know, growing the psychology of your twenties, and not even intentionally, people were just finding it.
这真是件美好的事。
Which is a beautiful thing.
恭喜你。
Congratulations.
这太棒了。
It was great.
是啊，确实如此。
It was yeah.
我太幸运了，但我当时很不自信，因为我根本没想到会这样。
Was so lucky, but I was so insecure because I didn't expect it.
我以前从未有过这种经历。
I never had this experience before.
我当时就想，我得做得更好才行。
And I was like, I have to be doing better.
我必须制作出最具原创性、最好的节目。
I have to be making the most original and the best kind of episodes.
我必须全力以赴，把所有精力都投入其中。
I have to be I have to be putting everything into this.
就像任何娱乐内容一样，你知道，有排行榜、有收视率，还有各种各样的东西。
And as it is with anything that's entertainment, you know, there are charts and there are ratings and there are all these things.
我真的希望这些不是这个媒介的一部分，我希望它能更自然一些，但它确实存在。
And I really wish that wasn't part of this medium and I wish that it was just more organic, but but it is.
是的。
Yeah.
竞争真的会让我失去很多乐趣。
And it would really kind of took some of the joy out of it for me was competition.
现在我正处于这样一个阶段，一个让我对自己所做的事情感到无比欣喜的境地。
Now I'm in this phase and in this place where I'm just so delighted by what I'm doing.
在过去大概六个月里，我真切地感受到了这一点——我几乎不再查看下载数据了。
And I felt it really in the last maybe six months where I don't really check download numbers.
我根本不会去查看，我根本不会在意。
I don't really check what I don't really pay attention.
我认为这是因为我已经变得更有目的性和自觉性，不再需要证明自己有能力做到这件事，有能力做得好。
And I think it's because I've somehow become a lot more purposeful and intentional, and that there is no longer a need to prove that I'm capable of doing this and I'm capable of being good at this.
现在我只需要享受它。
Now I can just enjoy it.
所以我很喜欢，你喜欢谈论这一点。
So I like that I like that you you talked about that.
还有，关于快乐的作用。
And also, like, the role of joy.
你认为快乐在抱负中扮演着什么角色？
What do you think the role of joy is in ambition as well?
是的。
Yeah.
我想为你说的最后那番话做个总结，因为我觉得它非常美好且重要。
And I just wanna just put a bow on that last thing that you said because I think it's so beautiful and important.
因为我们生活在一个由指标支撑的世界里，对吧？
Because we do live in a world that is upheld by metrics, right?
对我来说也是一样。
It's like same for me.
比如，我的书销量很重要，对吧？
It's like, my book sales matter, right?
但我从你这里听到的、对我来说重要的是，这并不是出发点，对吧？
But what I'm hearing from you and what's important for me is that's not the come from, right?
这并不是我们的驱动力。
That's not the driver for us.
我们的驱动力是对卓越工作的投入。
The driver for us is being devoted to amazing work.
而很多时候，结果就是这些数字。
And then oftentimes, the byproduct of that is the numbers.
对吧？
Right?
但当我们设定目标，想要冲上排行榜、达成目标时，那种强烈的控制感，我认为确实掩盖了快乐。
But it's like when we set out to, like, hit the chart and hit the goal and, like, it's so much control, and that I think eclipses joy for sure.
我想回答你的关于快乐的问题，但这里有个过渡，如果我可以的话。
And I want to answer your joy question, but this there's a segue here if I can.
我需要。
I need it.
告诉我这个过渡。
Tell me the segue.
把它给我
Give it to
我。
me.
就像我刚才说的关于控制的问题，这让我想到核心创伤。
So like what I was just talking about with control, right, what that says to me is core wound.
所以在书中，当我谈到痛苦的抱负时，痛苦的抱负是由核心创伤驱动的。
So in the book, when I talk about painful ambition, painful ambition is driven by core wounds.
所以在书中，我借助了加拿大心理学家丽丝·布尔博的理论，她指出有五种核心创伤：被拒绝、被抛弃、受羞辱、遭背叛和不公正。
So in the book, I leverage the work of Lis Bourbeau, who's a Canadian psychologist, and she talks about how there's five core wounds rejection, abandonment, humiliation, betrayal, and injustice.
由于每一种创伤，我们都会戴上相应的面具。
And as a result of each of the wounds, we wear a corresponding mask.
如果你有回避型的被拒绝创伤，你戴上的面具就是回避。
So if you have an avoid, a rejection wound, the mask you wear is avoidance.
如果你有被背叛的创伤，你戴上的面具就是控制。
If you have a betrayal wound, the mask you wear is control.
这正是我的一种。
That's one of mine.
因此，我们有时能开始看到，自己的创伤或面具如何阻碍了我们在工作中真正感受到快乐与满足。
And so sometimes we can start to see where our wound or mask is getting in the way of actually feeling joy and contentment in the context of our work.
对吧？
Right?
你刚才举的例子完美而典型地说明了核心创伤如何驱动野心，这就是痛苦的野心。
So that example you gave is so perfect and classic of core wound driving the ambition, and that's painful ambition.
而你现在所处的状态，是一种美好而有目的的抱负，就像放下了面具。
And then Where you are now is like beautiful purposeful ambition, like releasing the mass.
我认为我必须这样做的方式，显然你也会这么做。
And I think the way I had to do that was obviously, you would have done this as well.
你必须进行大量的自我成长。
Like, you have to do a lot of self work.
你还需要重新意识到：我在这里是有选择的。
You also just have to get back to being like, I have a choice here.
我可以拥有所有的成功和所有美好的事物，但每天都在憎恨自己，感觉自己的生活正在周围燃烧。
I can have all the success and all the good things, and I can hate myself for it every single day and feel like my life is burning around me.
然后我始终处于紧迫感和追逐状态中。
And then I am constantly in a state of urgency and in a state of pursuit.
或者，我可以拥有这一切，并且只是接受：有时候，我只是幸运罢了。
Or I can have all of this and just accept that sometimes I I am just lucky.
有时候，人们所做的事情真的会深深触动你。
And sometimes this stuff people do just really resonate with you.
有时候你已经完成了所有艰苦的工作，这种投入终于得到了回报。
And sometimes you've done all the hard work and that, like, that investment has paid off.
你不必再不断证明自己。
You don't have to continue to prove yourself.
我相信你也会有这样的感受。
I'm sure you find this as well.
野心是如何演变成需要证明自己的需求的呢？
Like, how does ambition come come down to the need to prove ourselves?
你有没有也发现这两者之间存在联系？
Have you have you found a link between those two things as well?
是的。
Yes.
这是典型的痛苦型野心。
That's classic painful ambition.
对吧？
Right?
证明自己。
Proving ourselves.
这可以追溯到核心创伤。
And it goes back to the core wounds.
所以，我知道我的一个核心创伤是被拒绝，而我戴的面具是回避。
So, you know, one of my core wounds is rejection, and the mask I wear is avoidance.
对吧？
Right?
因为我小时候被拒绝，所以作为成年人，我会回避去争取机会，因为我太担心再次被拒绝。
So because I felt rejected as a child, I will avoid as an adult throwing my hat in the ring because I'm so worried that I'll be rejected again.
由于我有被拒绝的创伤，又缺乏被接纳的感觉，我不断产生要证明自己的冲动。
And because I have this rejection wound and don't feel this sense of acceptance, I feel this impulse to prove myself over and over again.
其他所有核心创伤的情况也与此非常相似。
And it looks very similar for all the other core wounds as well.
所以我们生来就值得被爱。
And so we are all born worthy.
对吧？
Right?
我们生来就具有价值。
We're born innately worthy.
有谁会看着一个刚出生的婴儿，说他不值得吗？
Would anybody look at a brand new baby and be like, not worthy.
对吧？
Right?
不会。
No.
你看着一个婴儿，就会觉得天啊，他太完美了。
You look at a baby and you're like, oh my god, it's so perfect.
但所有这些东西都从我们的家庭系统、文化等方面层层叠加到我们身上。
But all this stuff gets layered onto us from our family systems, from culture, etcetera.
我们把这些内化为自己的信念，认为自己不够好，必须证明自己是有价值的。
We adopt it as our own, and we think that we're not enough and that we have to prove that we are valuable.
你生来就有价值。
You're born valuable.
而这是我们每个人都需要回归的信念。
And that's the message that each of us needs to come home to.
当我们意识到，我们对成长的渴望并非源于证明自己的需求，而是源于这是我的真实本质的自然展开。
And when we realize that our desire for growth isn't coming from that place to prove ourselves, It's coming from this is actually just a natural unfolding of my truth.
我真的很喜欢你这么说。
And I I really like that you said that.
无论你是否成功，你都完全值得。
Like, it you are completely worthy whether you are successful or not.
嗯。
Mhmm.
无论你是选择追求宏伟伟大的目标，还是选择过一种非常美好、缓慢而简单的生活。
Like, whether you choose to pursue big great grand things or you choose to just live a really a really amazing and slow and simple life.
是的。
Like Yes.
没有哪一种人生道路比另一种更有价值。
There is not one life path that is more valuable than another.
所以，只要你没有伤害他人或自己，只要你拥有幸福、善良和快乐，你就可以像《纽约时报》的畅销书作者一样。
So unless you are not hurting other people or hurting yourself, as long as you have happiness and kindness and joy, you could be like a New York Times bestseller.
你也可以只是一个拥有精彩花园、只与三个人交谈的人，而这两种生活都本质上具有价值。
You could be someone who just has a brilliant garden and talks to three people, and both of those lives are, like, inherently valuable.
我认为这还涉及到我们社会中一种奇怪的等级制度，即如果你有钱、成功，拥有一个公众形象，那你一定比其他人更快乐。
I think it also comes down to this weird hierarchy we have in our society that, like, if you have money and if you have success and if you have a public figure, a public facing, like, kind of persona, well, you must be happier than anyone else.
如果你更快乐，那么显然你的生活就更好。
And if you are happier, then obviously, like, your life is better.
但如果其他人认为你更成功、更快乐，这还会进一步加剧这种观念。
But if other people perceive you as being more successful and happier, then that even that that adds to that even more.
你遇到的一些最成功的人实际上内心深处并不快乐。
Some of the most successful people you meet are actually deeply unhappy.
天哪。
Oh my gosh.
大多数。
Most.
是的。
Yeah.
大多数人。
Most people.
是的。
Yeah.
而且，像世界上一些最富有的人，他们连一个可以信任的人都没有。
And, like, some of the richest people in the world, it's like they don't have anyone they can trust.
他们不喜欢自己。
Like, they don't like themselves.
公众也不喜欢他们。
The public doesn't like them.
他们看起来根本不是什么好人。
Like, they're not they don't seem like very good people.
那么，我们觉得这背后究竟是生活的秘密所在呢？
So what is it about this that we think is, like, the secret to life?
是的。
Yes.
我一直在思考这个问题。
I think I think about this all the time.
我觉得这根本不是什么奇怪的哲学问题。
I don't think it's a weird philosophical question at all.
我们生活在一个资本主义体系中。
We operate in a capitalist system.
对吧？
Right?
而资本主义认为，钱越多越好。
And capitalism says the more money, the better.
对吧？
Right?
但这就是野心陷阱的本质，因为我们知道，我们可以获得所有的金钱、所有的赞誉、所有的奖杯、所有的追随者。
But that's the essence of the ambition trap because we know that we can get all of the money, all of the accolades, like all of the trophies, all of the followers.
但如果你不从内在进行修炼，你依然会感到痛苦。
And if you don't do the work on the inside, you are still gonna be miserable.
对吧？
Right?
因为幸福并不存在于我们之外。
Because the happiness doesn't live outside of us.
满足感也不存在于我们之外。
The contentment doesn't live outside of us.
满足感存在于内心。
The contentment's on the inside.
甚至在书中，我特别谨慎地避免过度使用‘幸福’这个词，因为我觉得这本身也可能有点问题，因为幸福是一种情绪，因此是短暂的。
And even in the book, I actually was really careful not to overuse the language of happiness because even that I think can become a little troubling because happiness is an emotion and is therefore transient.
我们并不应该一直快乐。
We're not supposed to be happy all the time.
我们实际上是地球上最健康的人，因为我们为情绪的多样性留出了空间，也就是所有情绪的来来去去。
We're actually the healthiest people on the planet are the ones that make space for emo diversity, which is all emotions coming and going.
因此，即使这种执着于幸福、把幸福当作北极星的想法也有些令人不安，因为我们本该感受一切。
And so even this, like idea of clinging to happiness and that's the North Star is slightly troubling because we're supposed to feel everything.
我们本该感受悲伤、哀痛、幸福、喜悦、失望，所有这些情绪，不是紧抓不放，而是让它们如其所是地来去自如，这正是我倡导满足感的原因。
We're supposed to feel sadness, grief, happiness, joy, disappointment, all of it, not grip onto it, but let it come and go in the way that it's supposed to, which is why I'm an advocate for contentment.
因此，我不认为这些人是幸福的，也不认为他们是满足的，因为他们都在寻求自身之外的东西，而真正的功夫在于内心。
And so I don't think any of these people are happy nor do I think that they're contented because I think that they're seeking the thing outside of themselves when the work is on the inside.
不。
No.
绝对如此。
Absolutely.
作为一个人，我曾经多次陷入这种陷阱。
And and I can say as someone I've I've fallen into that many, a time.
天哪。
Damn.
我读了这本书。
I read the book.
嗯。
Yeah.
不，
No,
真的。
literally.
没错。
Exactly.
而且，就像我前几天跟别人说的那样，
And it's also this this sense of like, I was saying this to someone the other day as well.
我发社交媒体最频繁的时候，把自己生活描绘得最精彩的时候，也正是我最不满足的时候。
The times as well that I've been posting on social media the most, that I've portrayed my life as being the most incredible, have also been the times that I've been hap like, been the least content.
不是最不开心，也不是很开心，而是最不满足。
Not the least happy, also not very happy, but the least content.
因为我感觉外部的认同能填补某种空缺，它显得如此重要。
Because I felt like the external validation would fill some kind of hole or would It feels so valuable.
让我们感到自己有价值。
Make us feel valuable.
我想这正是所有问题的根源。
And I think this is what this is all coming back to.
对吧？
Right?
我们对野心有着不健康的关系，因为我们认为野心带来的成功或痛苦带来的成就，能填补我们生命中其他任何东西都无法填补的空洞。
We have an unhealthy relationship with ambition because we think that the success that ambition will bring or painful ambition will bring is gonna fill a hole in our life that nothing else can fill.
没错。
Yep.
它能填补某种需求，而这种需求唯有金钱、认可和成功才能满足。
And it's gonna fill some kind of need that can never be fulfilled by anything other than money, recognition, success.
如果你继续相信这一点，就像你提到的，你曾讲述过自己因过度劳累而生病的故事。
And if you continue to believe that, like you said, you spoke of your story of becoming ill from burnout.
你自我 sabotaging（自我破坏）。
You self sabotage.
你的人际关系不好。
You don't have good relationships.
所以我想问你，我们该如何开始重新定义这一切？
So my question for you is how do we begin to redefine this?
我们该如何开始将自己视为有价值的人，并将抱负视为可持续的，而不伤害自己？
How do we begin to see ourselves as valuable and see our ambition as sustainable, without it hurting us?
是的。
Yeah.
我认为这就是那个价值百万美元的问题。
I think this this is the million dollar question.
我真心相信，这要从疗愈核心创伤开始。
And I really believe it starts with the work on the core wounds.
所以，实际上在引言和第一章中，我就直接切入这一点，因为我真的不想浪费任何时间。
So literally, in the introduction and in chapter one, I get straight into this because I'm like, don't want to waste any time.
就像，这是
Like, this is
是的，我们需要请。
where Yes, we need please.
去
To
所以我认为我们需要真正理解哪些创伤属于我们自己，以及它们如何影响我们对抱负、成功、工作甚至友谊的态度。
And so I think that we need to really understand which wounds are ours and how they're showing up in our relationship to ambition and success and work and even friendships.
它在人际关系中无处不在。
It shows up in relationships all the time.
我经常被问到这个问题。
Get this question so much.
所以它无处不在。
So it's everywhere.
如果我们不进行核心创伤的疗愈，我们就总是会向外寻求东西，因为我们内心缺乏价值感。
And if we don't do that work on the core wounds, we are going to be constantly seeking the thing outside of ourselves because we don't feel worthy on the inside.
所以我们需要尽最大努力为这个伤口敷上疗愈的药膏。
So we need to bring as much of a salve to that wound as we possibly can.
否则，我们就会陷入永无止境的向外追寻。
Otherwise, we're in a perpetual chase outside of ourselves.
所以我认为这是最根本的一些工作。
So that I think is some of the most fundamental work.
而且，你知道，有趣的是，我不确定这个伤口是否真的能完全愈合。
And, you know, it's interesting because I don't know that the wound is ever like fully healed.
对吧？
Right?
我觉得它总是这样，你知道，嗯，是的。
I think it's always like, you know Yeah.
慢慢结痂，留下疤痕，一点点变好。
Getting a little scab, a little scar, like, getting better.
对吧？
Right?
在周围构建胶原蛋白。
Building the collagen around it.
我总是用比喻。
I'm always metaphor.
但你知道，我非常喜欢，但我觉得在我们职业生涯和成长的每一个新阶段，我们都有不同的应对方式。
But, you know, but it's I love But I think every next level of our careers and our becoming, we have a different way of dealing with it.
对吧？
Right?
你就像是在一种非常公开的职业中。
It's like you're in a very public career.
我从事的是公开的职业。
I'm in a public career.
因为我已经处理过那些核心创伤，也修复过我的神经系统，所以虽然有很多积极面，但也伴随着一些消极影响。
And because I've done work on those core wounds, because I've worked on my nervous system, you know, there's a lot of positivity, but there's also some negativity that comes with it.
但我现在有能力承受它了，它不会影响我的价值，因为我已经完成了这些工作。
But I'm equipped to hold it now, and it doesn't impact my value because I've done that work.
对吧？
Right?
我觉得，如果我们把自己的价值外包出去，像我或你这样的职业会非常难熬，因为每一条评论都会影响我们的自我认知。
It's like, I think it'd be so hard to be in a career like mine or yours if we were outsourcing our value because every comment, our our sense of self things are
最严重。
the most.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
不是。
No.
前几天我跟另一个朋友聊到这个，这不仅发生在我们这个行业，任何行业都一样。比如她，我会跟她说，她收到恶意评论时，简直毁了她的生活。
Literally, I I I was talking to another friend of mine about this the other day, and it happens not just industry, in any industry, but like, for her I was talking about how like she would get hate comments and it just ruins her life.
她的一整天都被毁了。
Like, her her day is ruined.
她什么都做不了。
She cannot do anything else.
而那个人根本没想过这些。
And that person hasn't thought about it at all.
这就像
It's the
你在一个办公室工作，有个职场霸凌者。
same with like you're in an office job and like there's a workplace bully.
他们根本不在乎，却能彻底摧毁你。
They don't they don't care and it's gonna completely destroy you.
我认为，你不能把自己的价值寄托在一段关系、他人的看法或物质成功上。
I think that it's again this thing you cannot hinge your value on a relationship, on someone else's perception, on material success.
所有这些都完全不可靠。
All of those things are completely fallible.
当你内心深处认为自己值得、有能力、做得很好，并且信任自己时，你就变得不可动摇。
When you have an internal sense of I am worthy and I do great things and I am capable and I trust myself, you are like unshakable.
无论别人说什么，哪怕再恶毒、再残忍，都无法伤害到你。
Like nothing anyone says is ever going to harm you even if it's nasty and cruel.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
我觉得这非常重要。
I think that's so important.
受伤的人会伤害别人。
Hurt people hurt people.
对吧？
Right?
所以他们是从一个创伤中出来的，这一点非常重要。
So they're coming from a poor wound, and that's so important to see.
如果你在这种情况下依然能感受到自己的完整，对吧？也许这其中还蕴含着对我们有益的学习。
And if you can then still feel whole in that, right, and maybe there's even a learning for for us in it.
对吧？
Right?
我觉得这同样是一件非常美好的事。
I think that's always a beautiful thing too.
但如果没有击垮我们，那就是其中的神奇之处。
But if it doesn't take us down, like, there's the magic.
而且，这也能阻止那个伤口继续传染。
And also, it stops that wound from becoming contagious.
就像那个试图拖垮你的人，或者不管是什么情况，伤害他人的人往往自己也曾被伤害。
Like, that person who has tried to bring you down or whatever it is, like, hurt people hurt people.
正如你所说，有人曾经伤害过他们。
As you said, someone has hurt them.
如果你接受了这些伤害，并让它伤到你，你就可能会继续把这种伤害传递给他人。
You If you take it on and you let that injure you, you will continue to do that to someone else.
这就是为什么有时候我们最大的反对者恰恰是最不自信的人。
It's why sometimes like our biggest haters are the ones that are most insecure about themselves.
是的。
Yeah.
因为
Because
我们没有确切的词，抱歉。
there's And we no exactly word Sorry.
不。
No.
不。
No.
你接着说。
Go ahead.
关于这种伤害具有传染性的说法真的非常对。
The part about it being contagious is so true.
对吧？
Right?
如果我们继续沉浸在自己的伤痛中，那就等于在邀请他人也这样做。
If we continue to live in our wounds, then we're just inviting others to do the same.
因此，当我们去疗愈自己的伤痛时，这实际上是一种服务他人的行为。
And, like, so then it's such an act of service for us to do the work on ours.
说得太美了。
It's so beautifully said.
尤其是，你之前提到的关于野心的部分，其实也关乎社区和协作。
And especially, like, what you were talking about before in terms of, like, ambition is also about community and also about collaboration.
一切都在融合在一起，疗愈你所有的创伤。
It's like, it's all coming together, fixing your whole wounds.
这不仅是对你孩子或家人的最大礼物，也是对所有与你接触的人的最大礼物。
Like, that is the greatest gift you can give, not just to, like, your children or to your family members, but to anyone who comes into contact with you.
你允许自己成为这样的榜样——展示野心可以是什么样子，展示与自我建立健康关系可以是什么样子，从而让其他人也受到鼓舞，心想：‘我也可以做到。’
You are allow you allow yourself to be this example of what ambition can look like and what a healthy relationship with self can look like such that other people jump on the bandwagon and, like, I'm super capable of doing that as well.
魔法就在这里。
That's where the magic is.
literally，人们会说，那我们该如何用这种方式改变世界呢？
Literally, that's what people are like, well, how do we change the world with this?
对吧？
Right?
我觉得，这一切始于我们自己？
I'm like, starts with us?
因为一旦我们开始做这份工作，我们的状态就会完全不同。
Because the minute that we do that work, we show up differently.
我们与周围所有人共舞。
And we're in a dance with everybody around us.
对吧？
Right?
所以，如果我往左走而不是往右走，他们就会顺应我，他们自己也会发生变化。
So if I go left instead of going right, now they're accommodating me, and they're different too.
然后，这会在世界上产生美妙的涟漪效应。
And then there's this beautiful ripple effect out in the world.
所以这一切从我们开始，但很容易从那里蔓延开来。
And so it starts with us, but it can very easily grow from there.
哦，当然。
Oh, absolutely.
百分之百。
100%.
人们并没有意识到，比如六度分隔这个概念。
Like, people don't realize, know, the idea of obviously, like, six degrees of separation.
这个世界上，每个人之间最多只相隔六度。
Like, every single person in this in this world is separated by maximum six degrees.
这太惊人了。
It's wild.
这太惊人了。
It's wild.
当你真正开始这么做时，我和朋友们有时也会这样做。
Like, when you really start doing it, me and my friends do this sometimes.
我们会想，这个随机的人，来自这个随机的国家。
We're like, this random person in this random country.
而且你会发现，始终都是六度分离。
And it's like you can or it's always six degrees.
所以想象一下，如果我们都真正开始践行，这种积极情绪和新的抱负愿景会多么迅速地传播开来。
So imagine how quick that positivity can spread and imagine how quick that new vision of ambition can spread if we just really start to live it.
不过我有个后续问题，我相信很多人都在问自己。
I do have a follow-up question though, and I'm I'm sure it's one that a lot of people are asking themselves.
我们如何才能有意识地放慢脚步，又不觉得自己落后了，尤其是在二十多岁的时候？
How can we deliberately slow down without feeling like we're falling behind, especially in our twenties?
因为我觉得，这一代人，尤其是现在，都在为此挣扎。
Because I feel like this is something that people in this decade struggle with, especially.
是的。
Yes.
这真是个很好的问题。
This is such a good one.
所以我认为有两点。
And so I think there's two things.
首先，是在我们的天赋领域工作。
First, it is working in our zone of genius.
在书中，我提到‘天赋领域’这个术语是由盖·亨德里克斯在他的书《大跃迁》中提出的。
So in the book, I talk about how so zone of genius is a term that was coined by Gay Hendrix in his book, The Big Leap.
在书中，我谈到我们通常处于三个领域中。
And in the book, I talk about how we operate in three zones.
我们有天赋或卓越领域、优秀领域，以及我们表现平平的领域。
So we have our genius or our exceptional zone, our excellent zone and our zone space that we're average at.
是的。
Yeah.
所以当我们了解自己的天赋领域或卓越特质时，就能用少得多的能量和时间，因为那是我们的魔力所在。
And so when we know what our zone of genius is, or what our exceptional traits are, we have to use so much less energy and time because it's our magic.
对吧？
Right?
这几乎是与生俱来的。
It's just kind of innate.
你不需要强迫或强求。
You don't have to push or force.
对吧？
Right?
我能看出，你目前正在做的事情正是你的天赋所在。
I can see that this is part of your genius, what you're doing right now.
所以，你不需要每天花八个小时来做这件事。
And so you can show up in this thing in less like, you don't need to spend eight hours a day in this.
对吧？
Right?
它已经被调校得如此精准而有力，你根本不需要每天花一整天时间去做它。
It's like it's so fine tuned and potent that you don't need to spend all day every day doing it.
所以我认为，我们需要从卓越区或终点区转变，大多数人职业生涯初期都处于这个区域，因为我们正在不断磨练技能。
So I think that shift from our excellent zone or our end zone, which is where most of us start our careers because we're kind of honing.
如果你能每天从在你的天赋区投入哪怕十分钟开始，然后逐步增加，你就无需担心放慢节奏，因为你在天赋领域所做出的贡献将如此强大，足以弥补一切。
And if you can spend even just starting by ten minutes a day in your zone of genius, and then building that over time, you don't have to worry about slowing down because the contribution over over in your genius is gonna be so potent, it makes up for everything.
另一点是，让你的神经系统感到安心，允许自己少做些事，因为我们生活在一个节奏飞快、知识瞬息万变的世界，每个人都在以每分钟百万英里的速度前进。
And then the other piece is letting your nervous system feel safe doing less because we like live in a world that is moving so fast and knowledge changes so quickly, and everybody's moving at a million miles a minute.
因此，对大多数人的神经系统来说，放慢脚步会感到不安全。
And so it feels unsafe for most of our nervous systems to go slow.
就像我现在所处的阶段，我之前提到过，现在节奏稍微慢了一些。
Like, I'm in this season right now, like I mentioned before, where it's a little slower.
因为现在是夏天。
It's the summer.
而我刚从一个极其忙碌的阶段过渡过来，我注意到我的神经系统最初在想：这样安全吗？
And just because I had came off a season that was so busy, I noticed that my nervous system at first was like, is this safe?
我们已经习惯了在过去一年里以每分钟百万英里的速度奔跑。
We're used to running a million miles a minute for especially for the last year.
这样可以吗？
Is it okay?
我必须真正下功夫，让我的身体在这种较慢的节奏中感到安全。
And I had to really do the work to let my body feel safe at this slower pace.
但我要不断提醒自己：我不需要做所有事，我只需要做我最擅长、最有威力的那件事。
But reminding myself right of like, I don't need to do everything, I need to do the thing that I am best and most potent at.
做。
At.
我认为这对任何人都适用，无论处于职业生涯的哪个阶段，尤其是在二十多岁的时候。
And I think that's true for anybody, whatever stage of their career, but especially in our twenties.
是的。
Yeah.
尤其是在你不断尝试的时候。
And especially as you're experimenting.
对吧？
Right?
承认自己其实并不擅长这件事是可以的，我无需证明什么。
It's okay to be like, I'm actually not that good at this, and I don't have anything to prove Yes.
通过证明自己能成为最优秀的人来证明价值。
By proving that I can be the best.
我在大学学经济学的时候就有这种想法，我觉得自己永远不可能成为这门课的顶尖学生。
Like, I had this when I was in uni and I was studying economics, I was like, I'm never gonna be a top student in this subject.
这根本不可能发生。
It's just not gonna happen.
是的。
Yeah.
我也学过经济学，也知道我不会成为这门课的顶尖学生。
And also studied economics and also knew that I was not gonna be a top student in the topic.
我就想，算了，拿个B就挺好。
I was like, yeah, stop by with a b.
我们都挺好的。
We're all right.
嗯。
Yeah.
嗯。
Yeah.
到微观二的时候，我就放弃了。
That's when I got to micro two, I was out.
我当时觉得，微观经济学二这门课，根本不是我的未来。
I was like, microeconomics two was where I was like, this is not my future.
这根本不是我会成为的样子。
Like, this is not who I'm going to be.
天啊。
Oh my god.
我也是。
Same.
我们微观经济学二的班级平均分是100分中的36分。
Our class average in microeconomics two was a 36 out of a 100.
那只是班级平均分。
That was a class average.
我们所有人都挂科了。
Like, we were all failing.
天哪。
Oh my god.
不。
No.
你看，我是在疫情期间修的课，我觉得他们对我们更宽容，因为我的最后一年正好是疫情的第一年。
See, I did it during COVID, and I think that they were nicer to us because, like, I was it was like the my last year was the first year of COVID.
我还修了宏观经济学。
And then I also did, like, macro too.
实在是太多了。
It was just a it was just a lot.
但我记得我当时想，天哪。
But, you know, I remember being like, oh my god.
我一直以来都非常重视成绩，总是把很多东西和我的表现挂钩。
I've always put so much in my grades, and I've always tied so much to, like, my output.
如果我不擅长这个，雇主就不会愿意雇我做这个工作。
And if I'm not good at this, like, an employer isn't gonna wanna hire me for this for this one.
我必须在每件事上都表现出色。
I have to be amazing at everything.
否则，我就不是一个全面发展的人，诸如此类的废话。
Otherwise, I'm not a well rounded individual and I blah blah blah blah.
然后我突然意识到，等等。
And then I was like, wait a second.
我可以更多地专注于这些心理学科目，而我的平均绩点依然能保持不变，因为我只是意识到——这是一个很简单的时刻，但就是这个瞬间让我明白：我不会放弃，我只是会花更多时间在自己的天赋领域，专注于我擅长的事情。
Like, I can focus more on these psychology subjects and my grade point average will stay the same because I'm doing I was just like this it's such a basic moment, but just this moment of being like, I'm not gonna give up, but I'm just gonna spend more time in my zone of genius and spend more time on the thing that I'm like good at.
因为我们每个人都有与生俱来的天赋。
Because we all do have natural talents.
嗯。
Mhmm.
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