柯克·施奈德 || 存在-人本主义疗法

大家好，欢迎收听这档心理学播客，我们将带您深入探索心智、大脑、行为与创造力。

Hello, and welcome to the psychology podcast where we give you insights into the mind, brain, behavior, and creativity.

每期节目都会邀请一位嘉宾，他们将激发您的思维，帮助您更好地理解自我、他人和我们所处的世界。

Each episode will feature a guest who will stimulate your mind and give you a greater understanding of yourself, others, and the world we live in.

希望我们还能为您展现人类潜能的无限可能。

Hopefully, we'll also provide a glimpse into human possibility.

如果您喜欢今天的内容，请在iTunes上为我们评分并留下评论。

If you like what you hear today, please add a rating and review in iTunes.

感谢收听，祝您享受这期播客节目。

Thanks for listening, and enjoy the podcast.

今天我非常高兴能邀请到柯克·施耐德参加我们的播客。

So today, I'm really glad to have Kirk Schneider on the podcast.

柯克是一位心理治疗师，他在推进存在主义人本治疗和存在整合治疗方面发挥了领导作用。

Kirk is a psychotherapist who has taken a leading role in the advancement of existential humanistic therapy and existential integrative therapy.

他撰写或合著了10本书籍，包括《矛盾的自我》、《人性的阴暗面》、《存在整合心理治疗》、与劳尔·梅合著的《存在心理学》、《极化思维》、《人本心理学手册》以及《觉醒万物》。

He has authored or co authored 10 books, including The Paradoxical Self, Humanity's Dark Side, Existential Integrative Psychotherapy, The Psychology of Existence with Raul May, The Polarized Mind, The Handbook of Humanistic Psychology, and Awakening to All.

博士。

Doctor.

施耐德博士是2004年‘劳尔·梅奖’的获得者，该奖项由美国心理学会人本主义心理学分会颁发，以表彰他在人本主义心理学新领域中的杰出独立探索。

Schneider is the 2,004 recipient of the Raul May Award for Outstanding and Independent Pursuit of New Frontiers in Humanistic Psychology from the Humanistic Psychology Division of the American Psychological Association.

今天能与你交谈真是莫大的荣幸，柯克。

It's a real honor to talk to you today, Kirk.

能与你交谈也是我的荣幸，斯科特。

Well, it's an honor to talk to you too, Scott.

听你这么说我感到很荣幸。

Well, I'm honored that you said that.

你是人本主义心理学领域的泰斗，真正将存在主义与人本主义融为一体。

You're one of the great humanistic psychologists and really integrated existential and humanistic.

我在想，你是否愿意向我们的听众简要介绍一下什么是存在主义人本主义疗法？

I just thought, would you mind kind of telling our listeners a little bit about what is existential humanistic therapy?

好的。

Yeah.

我试着给你一个简略的概述。

I'll try to give you the thumbnail sketch.

我的意思是，它基本上围绕着两个持续且隐含的问题。

I mean, it's basically about two ongoing and implicit questions.

第一个是：你目前是如何生活的？

One is, how are you presently living?

第二个是：你愿意如何生活？

And the second is, how are you willing to live?

这两个问题实际上都反映了自由与责任的议题。

And both of those questions really reflect the issue of freedom and responsibility.

第一个问题引出了关于我当前生活状况以及如何探索它的整体思考。

The first question brings up the whole issue of what is my present life like and how can I explore that?

我有多少自由度来探索这个问题？

What degree of freedom do I have to explore that question?

这是我们经常不自问的一个核心问题。

A very central question we often don't ask ourselves.

在某种程度上，这就像是把一面镜子越来越近地举到一个人面前，让他们感知自己目前的生活方式，进而隐含地思考他们愿意如何生活。

In a way it's like holding a mirror to the person more and more closely to sense how they're currently living and then implicitly how are they willing to live.

因为当人们更深入地了解自己当前的生活方式时，他们往往会越来越强烈地感受到是否愿意继续接受这种生活方式，或者是否要做出其他选择。

Because as people get to know more of how they're presently living, they often feel more and more pulled toward whether or not they're gonna accept living in that same way, whether they're gonna make other choices.

这与欧文·亚隆的存在主义心理治疗工作有何关联？

How does that relate to Irving Yalam's work on existential psychotherapy?

这对你的工作是否产生过影响？

Was that an influence on your work at all?

它对我的工作确实有一定影响。

It was some influence on my work.

我的主要导师是吉姆·布根塔尔和他的妻子，还有罗洛·梅，但我当然熟悉欧文的工作，并且非常钦佩，我认为这是对存在主义疗法的一个很好的概括。

I mean, was mainly trained by Jim Bugentol and his wife and Rollo May, But I certainly have a familiarity with Erv's work and very much admire it and I think it's a fine synopsis existential therapy.

它实际上与四个既定事实相关：自由、有限性、意义问题，以及孤独与关系的议题。

It relates to the four givens really freedom, finitude, question of meaning, question of isolation versus relationship.

我是说，他提出的所有这些挑战性的既定事实，都隐含在我之前提出的两个问题中，这两个问题贯穿于工作的每个阶段。

I mean all those issues, those givens that he raises challenges are implicit in the two questions that I posed earlier, which really run through every phase of the work.

再者，这些问题并不总是直白的询问，比如'你现在的生活方式是怎样的？'

And again, they're not always explicit questions like how are you living right now?

你愿意以怎样的方式生活？

How are you willing to live?

但它们往往通过治疗师对来访者的在场而隐含地传达——通过再次营造一个工作空间，提供安全感和严肃性，这通常能帮助来访者释放更深入审视自己生活的能力。

But they're often implicit through the therapist present to the client through again holding a space, a working space that provides a sense of safety and seriousness that often helps clients to free up the ability to look more deeply at their lives.

是的，我个人非常喜欢这种方法。

Yeah, I mean, personally really like that approach.

我想知道它与认知行为疗法（CBT）或接纳承诺疗法（ACT）有何不同？

And I was wondering how does it differ from like CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy, or acceptance and commitment therapy?

实际上，我从存在人本主义疗法中发展出一种分支，称之为存在整合疗法，这是一种理解和协调多种正统疗法（包括CBT）的方式，以适应当事人的实际需求。

Well, I actually have developed a kind of offshoot from existential humanistic therapy that I call existential integrative therapy, which is really one way of understanding and coordinating a variety of bona fide therapies, including CBT to meet a person where they're at.

换种说法，它是在整体存在主义或体验性背景下协调和理解多种正统疗法。

I could put it another way, it's coordinating and understanding a variety of bona fide therapies within an overall existential or experiential context.

这意味着我可能会在生理层面与某人合作，比如在我的知识范围内推荐药物或某些营养建议或支持。

Meaning that I might work with somebody at physiological level, the level of maybe recommending medication or some kind of nutritional suggestions or support within my area of knowledge about that.

我可能会指导他们进行深呼吸或减压练习。

I may work with them to do some deep breathing or decompression exercises.

问题在于来访者对深层改变的意愿和能力如何？

The issue is what is that client's desire and capacity for deeper change?

而我真正努力去调谐这种意愿和能力。

And I really try to tune into that.

并非每个人都有意愿或能力在传统存在人本治疗的深度层面工作。

So not everybody has a desire or capacity to work at the traditional depth levels of existential humanistic therapy.

但他们或许可以工作——可能只是为了度过今晚，因为他们在生理支持层面感到非常脆弱；或者通过认知行为疗法，这种方法适用于那些无法深度内省但能在认知和行为改变层面进行工作的人。

But they can work perhaps again, maybe just to get through the night because they're feeling so fragile at a more physiologically supportive level or even cognitive behaviorally which can reach people who may not have the ability to drop into themselves in an intensively present way but can work more at the level of cognition and behavioral change and reconditioning.

而这些其他疗法也可以成为通往更深层次探索的垫脚石。

And these other therapies can also be stepping stones toward a deeper level of exploration.

我还需要说明，在存在整合框架中，一个关键问题是治疗师对深层（我们称之为体验性改变）的可用性。所谓体验性，我指的是对即时性、情感性、动觉性或具身性体验，以及对当事人所挣扎问题的深层意义的重视。

I should also say that within the existential integrated framework, one of the critical issues is the therapist's availability to deeper or what we call experiential change And by experiential I mean an emphasis on the immediate, the affective, kinesthetic or embodied and the profound or a sense of deep significance regarding whatever it is the person is struggling with.

因此，我始终尝试保持对这种深层接触的开放性，同时也敏锐觉察到来访者可能尚未准备好或不愿意进入那个领域。

So I attempt to ever be available to that deeper level of contact while also being attuned to the prospect that a person may not be ready for that or may not be desirous of going into that place.

因此在这种情况下，我会采用更偏向生理导向或程序化支持的认知行为疗法与来访者建立联系，帮助他们审视自己的非黑即白思维、过度概括倾向，以及他们恐惧事件发生的可能性。

So that's where I bring out perhaps more physiologically oriented or programmatic supportive cognitive behavioral form of contact with the person, helping them to perhaps look at their black and white thinking over generalizations, likelihood of something happening that they're fearful about.

尤其是对于那些在特定阶段更适应这个工作层面的人而言。

Especially again for people who really relate more at that level of working at that particular time.

可以说存在主义整合疗法是一种艺术性与科学性的融合，既强调直觉也注重临床判断，同时还会借助治疗师自身的临在状态作为标尺，来思考'此刻我们如何优化这次会面？'

So it is the existential integrative approach is I would say it's an artistic scientific blend with a strong emphasis on intuition as well as clinical judgment, but also drawing from one's own presence as a therapist as a kind of barometer for how can we optimize our meeting in this moment?

这面镜子如何影响着那个人当前的生活方式及其愿意做出的改变？

How is that mirror impacting that person in terms of how he or she is presently living and how they're willing to live?

当然，这也会引入其他可能的干预方式，因为他们可能正活在非常基础的生存层面——只是试图熬过今晚或这周。

Of course, that brings in a number of other possible interventions too, because again, they may be living at a level that is just very elemental, trying to get through the night or the week.

或者，你知道，他们可能更倾向于理性逻辑思维。

Or, you know, they tend to be more cerebral and logical.

这就是他们当前的生活层面，也是我们当时主要的工作场域。

So that's the level that they're living at and that's kind of the arena we'll be working at that time.

但我始终保持着对潜在深层信号的高度觉察。

But I'm never trying to stay attuned to what may be leaking through that.

也许是眼角的湿润，或是低垂的头，亦或是声音的抑扬变化。

Maybe a moistening of the eyes or one's head being lowered or one's voice modulating.

所以即使我们更多是在认知行为层面工作，我也可能会试探对方的反应。

So I may test the water with a person, even if we're working more at a cognitive behavioral level.

让我们通过指出我观察到的他们说话时的身体姿态来试探，或者简单询问：'当你说这句话时，感觉如何？'

Let's test the water with calling attention to what I'm seeing about how they're holding themselves as they're talking, or maybe even just checking in of how are you feeling as you made that statement?

柯克，你感觉怎么样？

How are you feeling, Kirk?

怎么

How

你现在感觉如何？

are you feeling right now?

我...我觉得有点匆忙，因为感觉我们需要...你知道的，总结一个具有多层次细微差别的观点，而且

I'm I'm feeling a little rushed because I feel like somehow we need to, you know, summarize a perspective that has many layers and nuances to it and

嗯，就算我们有五天时间交谈，我觉得你可能还是会急着要把这个观点表达清楚。

Well, even if we had five days to talk, I don't think that I think you'd still feel rushed to get this perspective across.

我们还是会感到匆忙。

We'd still feel rushed.

是的。

Yeah.

我也这么认为。

I think so.

这是一个培养的过程。

It's a cultivation process.

确实如此。

Indeed.

嗯，我在想，我表达得清楚吗？还是说你在说什么？

Well, I'm wondering, am I being clear here or what you're saying?

不，你表达得非常清楚，听你描述这种心理治疗方法真是令人愉快，这种疗法在全国临床培训项目中并不像认知行为疗法（CBT）那样普遍。

No, you're absolutely being clear and it's really delightful to hear from you your description of this form of psychotherapy that's really not as prominent in clinical training programs across the country as CBT, for instance.

所以这对我来说真的是一种享受，希望听众们也能觉得是种享受。

So it's it's really it's a treat for me, and hopefully the audience will consider a treat as well.

我知道你曾师从罗洛梅，我真是他的忠实粉丝——用这个词形容合适吗？

And I know that you studied with Rolome and I'm just such a fan, is that is that the right word to use, of his.

而且我听到了很多相似的主题。

And I hear a lot of similar themes.

在你的著作中，你经常谈到神秘性，拥抱神秘、拥抱未知，而这正是他反复强调的。

And in your writings, you talk a lot about mystery, embracing the mystery, embracing the unknown, and he really talked about that a lot.

我就是...嗯。

I just yeah.

你能简单谈谈你们的关系吗？比如他私下为人如何，你对他的个人印象是怎样的？

Could you just talk a little bit about, like, your relationship with him and, like, what was he like as a person and were your impressions of him privately?

当然可以。

Sure.

不过在谈这个之前，我想先回应你刚才提到的传统培训项目的问题。

But before I do that, just to backtrack as to what you were saying about more conventional training programs.

我认为这些项目没有培养更多存在主义人本主义原则，实在是巨大的遗憾。

I think this is a great tragedy that more existential humanistic principles are not being cultivated in those programs.

这不仅源于我个人的偏见，更因为研究结果也指向这一方向。

And not just because of my own bias, but also because this is where the research is pointing as well.

最新的心理治疗成果研究与我们强调的存在人本主义及存在整合疗法的工作高度契合。

The latest psychotherapy outcome research is very compatible with the kind of work that we emphasize in existential humanistic and existential integrative therapy.

情境因素、个人因素、治疗联盟、共情能力、治疗师的可信度或真诚度、与来访者即时协作的意愿，以及希望感——我相信临在感能赋予人们希望，因为它始终在展开新的可能。

The contextual factors, personal factors, therapeutic alliance, empathy, the believability of the therapist or the genuineness of the therapist, willingness to collaborate moment to moment with the client, and a sense of hope, which I believe presence gives people a sense of hope because it's ever unfolding.

正如你之前提到的，它开启更多可能性，展现更完整的自我。

As you're alluding to before, it opens new possibilities, the more of who we are.

所以我完全赞同。

So I couldn't agree more.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

这个观点我是从吉姆·布詹托尔那里学来的，而我想他又是从威廉·詹姆斯那里获得的。

Well, I get that from Jim Bujentol, and I think he got it from William James.

所以我主张至少要在常规培训中加强关注工作中个人和当下层面的内容。

So just my pitch for the need to at least augment much of the conventional training with more of a focus on the personal and present dimensions of the work.

说到罗洛·梅，我遇见他的经历简直像魔法一样奇妙。

As far as Ralo May, oh that was almost magical how I met him.

这要从35年前我在人本主义心理学研究所（当时我的博士项目）跟随吉姆·布金特尔参加的为期9个月的导师课程说起。

It started with a nine month long mentorship class I took with Jim Bujentle at the then Humanistic Psychology Institute, which was my PhD program about thirty five years ago.

这九个月的导师课程不仅是教学性的——吉姆向我们传授该视角的基本原则，还包括拜访该领域的杰出人物。

And part of this nine month long mentorship was not just didactic, Jim conveying the basic principles of the perspective, but it also involved visiting luminaries in the field.

我们确实拜访过乌尔维·艾伦、莫里斯·弗里德曼（马丁·布伯学者）、彼得·克斯坦鲍姆（他自称临床哲学家）等人，但最难忘的是一个美妙的夜晚，我们有幸与罗洛·梅会面。

And we did visit Urvi Alen one time, Maurice Friedman, who was a Mark Buber scholar, Peter Kerstenbaum who was a clinical philosopher as he put it and some others but one very enchanted evening bestowed the honor of meeting with Rollo May.

我们当时是一小群学生。

We had a small group of students.

我记得那是我第一次见到他。

I believe that's the first time I met him.

我们所有人之间进行了一场精彩的对话。

Had a wonderful dialogue among all of us.

吉姆甚至还为那个晚上写了一篇短文，我这还保存着。

And Jim even wrote a little article about that evening, which I have.

我很想读一读。

I'd love to read that.

嗯。

Yeah.

我可以试着给你弄一份复印件。

Could try to get a copy of that to you.

好啊。

Yeah.

我还有幸采访过他，因为当时人文心理学研究院——也就是现在的赛布鲁克——的公关人员请我对他做个访谈，并写篇关于梅工作的短文。

I also had the chance to interview him because I believe it was our public relations staff member at Humanistic Psychology Institute, which is now Saybrook, who asked me to do an interview with him and write a little article about May's work.

她知道我对此有多热衷。

She knew how enthusiastic I was about it.

那是在1981年，为学校通讯写的。

This was back in 1981 and write it for the school newsletter.

这就是另一个让我得以与他相识的契机，从那以后我们开始定期互访。

So that's another place where I got to know him personally and from that point on we started visiting each other periodically.

他曾让我开车带他去一些地方，我觉得我们之间有种天然的亲近感，尤其是在对人类处境矛盾性的探讨上。

He asked me to drive him some places And I think we felt a very natural kinship, especially around the paradoxes of the human condition.

我们曾与一些超个人心理学家展开过激烈的辩论对话，特别是与肯·威尔伯。

We got caught up in a whole debate dialogue with some of the transpersonal psychologists, in particular, Ken Wilbur.

哦，真的吗？

Oh, really?

他们互相辩论过吗？

Did they debate each other?

是的，他们辩论过，我也参与其中。

Well, they did and I did.

哇哦。

Oh, wow.

我在八十年代的《人本主义心理学杂志》上与威尔伯进行过一系列辩论。

I had a series of debates with Wilbur in the Journal of Humanistic Psychology in the eighties.

哦，哇。

Oh, wow.

后来罗洛也加入了进来，我和他就这些问题保持着联系。

And Rallo kind of joined in later And I was in touch with Rollo about these.

他对威尔伯所谓的‘终极意识’概念——即自我与非自我完全消融、人将意识到‘一切’的那个临界点——与我有着许多共同的担忧。

He shared a lot of my concern about Wilbur's notion of what he called ultimate consciousness, which was basically a point at which self and not self totally dissolve and one becomes conscious of the all, if you will.

无边界，这是他用的词。从治疗学、哲学角度，尤其是考虑到历史上那些泥足巨匠们，我对这个概念有着诸多疑问和忧虑。

No boundary, that's the name And of one of his I just had a lot, a lot of questions and concerns about that from a therapeutic level, philosophical point of view, and certainly from a political point of view, given all the clay footed gurus that we had seen through history as well.

这似乎与我们许多关于生命现象学的体验并不契合，这些体验恰恰揭示了我们的腐朽本质。

And it seemed to not really resonate with so many of our phenomenological experiences of life, which point to how we are decaying.

我们既是翱翔的天使，也是蛆虫的食物。

We're food for worms at the same time as we're soaring angel.

而这似乎正是人类存在的一个鲜明事实。

And this just seems to be a very palpable fact of being human.

我并不认为这是件坏事。

And I don't think that's a bad thing.

而罗洛也不认为这是件坏事。

And then Rollo didn't see that as a bad thing.

事实上，我们俩都视其为对人类旅程的深化。

Anything, we both saw it as intensifying the human journey.

这类挑战——关于死亡、无根性和未知的挑战——不仅能够强化生命的每一刻，还能不断向我们敞开新的可能性，正如我现在所说的，让我们感受到那种'令人敬畏'的感觉。

Those kinds of challenges, the challenges of death and of groundlessness and of not knowing, have a way of not only intensifying each moment of living, but also opening us, ever opening us to new possibilities, to a sense of the awesome, as I put it now.

对生活保持谦卑、惊奇或冒险感。

The humility and wonder or sense of adventure toward living.

在我看来，当人们假定所有这些都被消解并融入一种完全的觉知时，很可能会失去某种生命的热情或需求，正如一位诗人所言。

And it seems to me when one presumes that all of that is dissolved and taken up into a complete consciousness, one may well lose sort of the zest or the need of life as it was put by one poet.

哇。

Wow.

我真想看看你和罗洛、威尔伯之间的交流。

I would just love to see interactions between you and and Rollo and Wilbur.

你知道，威尔伯是个有点争议的人物，但确实有很多人非常推崇他的见解。

You know, Wilbur, you know, is a bit of a controversial figure, but a lot of people really do swear by his insights there.

他们从他那里获得了启发。

They feel inspired by him.

确实如此。

Absolutely.

我绝不想把他描绘得一无是处。

I don't want to paint him in a completely bleak way by any means.

我认为他是一位才华横溢的作家和思想家，在许多方面他的见解都很准确。

I think he's a brilliant writer and thinker, and I think he was accurate in a number of ways.

我只是觉得他走得太远了，或者至少他关于终极意识的观念非常令人担忧，包括他提到的那些已达到这种状态的人，比如他自己和一个名叫达弗里扬（后改名为阿迪·达）的人——后来被发现经营着一个性交易圈，并用酒精剥削信徒。

I just think he went too far, or at least was very concerning with his notions of ultimate consciousness and the people that he talked about who had achieved this state, including himself and a fellow named Dafrijan, who is now called Adi Da, who was found to be running a sex ring and exploiting his disciples with alcohol.

但这类事情我们屡见不鲜，每当有人声称持有某种纯粹清教徒式或绝对主义观点时。

But this is the kind of thing that we see over and over again whenever people claim to have some kind of pure Puritan point of view or absolutist point of view.

因此罗洛和我对此深有共鸣。

And so Rollo and I were very much on that wavelength.

这非常有趣。

It was very interesting.

我比他年轻近五十岁，但不知怎的，我们仿佛在某种程度上是灵魂伴侣。

I was almost fifty years younger, but somehow it was almost like we were soulmates in some way.

是啊。

Yeah.

然后他邀请我合著教材，后来那本书成了《存在心理学》。

And then he asked me to co write the textbook with him, which became Psychology of Existence.

能和他合著教材真是太酷了。

That's so cool that you co wrote a textbook with him.

嗯。

Yeah.

我见过那本书。

I saw that book.

听你说了这么多，我发现这些思想里有很多你的影子。

I hear a lot of you're saying, I and I see a lot of traces of these ideas.

所以我想在剩下的时间里聊聊你的新书《万有灵性》。

So I'd like to, in the time remaining, to talk about your newest book, The Spirituality of All.

在那本书中，你提出了一个基于人文主义的敬畏时代。

And in that book, you talk about you put forward a humanistic all based era.

你描绘了一种在机器人时代（你称之为‘机器人主义’时代）可能实现的愿景。

You present kind of a vision for what that could look like in the age of robot what you call roboticism.

你能详细谈谈这个吗？

Could you please talk a little bit about that?

好的。

Yeah.

我真心希望我们能进化到这样一个时代——那种能够保持临在、能够容纳并照亮我们内心及彼此之间切实重要之物的能力，将成为个人生活和集体生活的优先事项。

Really, my hope that we can evolve toward a time where the capacity for presence, for holding and illuminating that which is palpably significant within ourselves and between ourselves and others, that that will become a priority, not only in our individual lives but in our collective lives.

因此，我提出‘敬畏时代’或‘敬畏意识’的构想，正是希望以此作为人类文明前进的起点。

And so that's really where I would start in terms of proposing this awe based era or awe based sensibility as we move forward as a species.

所谓‘敬畏为本’，是指通过培养临在感和全身心体验生活，我们得以与神秘和发现建立联结，从而释放感知、创造、想象、惊叹的能力，同时也接纳那些不安的情绪，体验悲伤、伤痛或愤怒的深刻。

Now, what I mean by all based is that with this cultivation of presence, with cultivation of whole bodied experience in living, that we also connect with mystery and discovery in a way that frees up our ability to feel, to sense, to create, to imagine, to wonder, and also to feel the dysphoric feelings as well, to experience the poignancy of sadness or hurt or anger.

这些维度都能导向更宏大的生命体验，并催生创造性成果——因为它们本质上关乎持续向新可能性、向他者、我们的星球及其他物种保持开放与敏感。

That these are dimensions that can all lead to a larger sense of life and to creative work certainly because they have to do with ever attempting to be open to new possibilities and to sensitivities toward other people, our planet, other species.

这是对我们在此的时空——我们转瞬即逝的时空——一种深刻的珍视。

It's a profound valuing of our time and space here, our fleeting time and space.

因此，这正是我希望在我们迈向、或者说冲向这场机器人革命时能带入的理念。

So that's what I'm hoping we could bring in as we move, as we hurdle toward this robotic revolution.

顺便说一下，所谓‘机器人化’，我指的是我们如何既表现得像机器，又变得越来越像机器。

Roboticism, by the way, I mean, how we are both acting like and becoming more like machines.

是的。

Yeah.

不可避免，不是吗？

Inevitable, isn't it?

是啊。

Yeah.

看起来确实如此。

It seems to be.

这种以机器为模板的生活模式，以效率为导向的生活范式。

The machine model for living, the efficiency model for living.

我几乎在我们生活的每个主要领域都看到了这一点，从育儿到教育，到工作环境，再到治理和政治。

And I see this in almost every major sector of our lives, from child rearing to education, to the work setting, to governance, politics.

我们正越来越多地被吸收进一个看似为某些权力服务的庞大机器中，是啊。

We are being absorbed more and more into what seems like an enormous machine for the benefit of certain powers, Yeah.

这完全是另一个问题，一个社会经济问题。

Which is a whole other question, a socioeconomic question.

为什么我们被迫变得更像机器？

Why why are we being pressed to become more machine like?

是啊。

Yeah.

我们正在失去人性。

We're losing that humanity.

那么，对你来说，作为人类意味着什么？

Well, what does it mean to you to be a human?

这是个多么深刻的问题啊，对吧？

What what a question that is, right?

我打赌这个话题能聊很久。

I bet you could talk about that for a long time.

但你能用几句话概括一下你的想法吗？

But do you have an idea about that in terms of how you could, like, in a couple sentences?

你认为人类最本质的特征是什么？

Like, what do you see as the essential features of being human?

这是个很好的问题。

It's a great question.

我猜你会把它与接纳矛盾联系起来，读过你的书后，我想试着说说看。

I'm sure that you link it to embracing the paradoxes, and I mean, I'm gonna take a stab after reading your book.

我猜也许

I'm guessing Maybe

你能回答得更好。

you could answer it better.

嗯，我有种感觉

Well, I get the sense

你在书中曾提到一个我非常喜欢的观点，即机器人将很难真正拥抱人性深处的矛盾性。

in the book that you something at one point that you made that I really liked was that robots are not gonna be very good at embracing the contradictions of the depths of humanity, you know.

嗯，

Well,

我们自身内部那些两极对立的特质。

The polarized aspects of within ourselves.

我认为这正是我们深刻的人性或人类核心意识与机器人之间的关键分水岭——机器人可以模仿人类的许多方面。

I mean, I think that's a big cutting edge between what I would call our profound humanity or core sense of being human and the robotic is that the robotic can emulate many aspects of being human.

而我们在某些方面也确实像机器人。

And we are robotic in certain ways.

我承认，我们在某些机制原理下运作。

I mean, we operate in certain mechanistic principles, I grant that.

但在最深的层面，我们体验着生活中大量的模糊性与矛盾情感。

But at our deepest level, we experience a great deal of the ambiguity and ambivalence of life.

我们能够承载多层次的思想、感受、知觉、意象和直觉。

We're capable of many layers, many layers of thought, feeling, and sensation, images, intuition.

正如我之前所说，我认为这正是能强化并激活我们日常生活每分每秒体验的部分。

And so again, as I was saying before, I think this is part of what intensifies or can intensify and vitalize our moment to moment and day to day lives.

但同时也可能导致某些低效。

But also can make for some inefficiency.

因此在我看来，机器模型完全摒弃了这些。

And so machine model seems to me cuts all that out.

机器本质上是二进制的——它们被编程执行某项任务后，就会严格遵循程序设定，非此即彼。

I mean, machines are basically binary where they're programmed to do something and they then follow through whatever it is their program, it's either this or that.

我并非断言未来不会改变，事物可能变得复杂得多。但我实在怀疑我们能否创造出这样的机器，甚至能否理解人类的物质构成（比如神经基质），让大脑体验快乐的部分同时能感知疑虑、悲伤或恐惧的微妙波动。

Now I'm not saying that that may change in the future, things may get a lot more complex, but I really doubt that we're going to be able to create machines or even understand the materials of the human being, let's say the neural substrates, in a paradoxical way where the part of the brain that experiences joy, let's say, is at the same time experiencing tinges of doubt or sadness or fear.

这在我看来实在太过精妙，太过微妙了。

It's just too delicate, it seems to me, too subtle.

这更多属于诗人与艺术家的领域。

This is more in the realm of our poets and artists.

而我认为，忽视这些人性特质将使我们陷入巨大危险——正如拉洛所说，如果我们继续遵循标准化路径（他当时指的是心理治疗日益标准化），很快我们就只会机械地按按钮拉操纵杆了。

And I think we ignore those aspects of our humanity at our great peril because as Rallo once put it, pretty soon if we follow a standardized path and he was talking about psychotherapy getting more and more standardized, we're gonna be pushing buttons and pulling levers.

我始终铭记这一点。

And I never forgot that.

是啊。

Yeah.

是啊。

Yeah.

你提到了新型深度疗愈者大军。

You talk about the new army of depth healers.

这是否意味着要对治疗师角色进行全新构想？

Is that gonna be a like a new envisioning of the therapist?

我在书中提出了一些非常具体的建议。

Well, I make some very concrete suggestions in the book.

可能有人觉得这些想法过于超前甚至理想化，但若失去理想，我们恐怕会深陷泥潭。

People may see them as pretty far out there and maybe a little ideal, but without our ideals, I think we're pretty stuck in the mud.

我认为我们需要一些根本性变革，才能在这个机械化和军事化的时代洪流中挽救人类文明。

And I think we need some radical changes to probably salvage our species as far as the direction we're going toward mechanization and militarization.

因此，我在此建议我们培养一支心理调谐或心灵调谐的引导者大军，规模与我们现有的军队相当。

So what I suggest here is that we develop an army of psychologically attuned or psycho spiritually attuned facilitators that's equivalent to our current military army.

为什么我们不能投入同样多的人力和资源，在国内培训和培养一大群能够帮助社会大众的人？他们可以帮助我之前提到的众多领域的人们发展更强的相互理解能力和自我认知能力。

Why shouldn't we have just as many people and just as much energy in our country devoted to training and cultivating a large group of people who can help so many people in our society and so many of the places I mentioned before to develop a greater capacity to relate to one another and to relate to themselves.

我认为我们尤其需要在政治和政府领域实现这一点，因为正是这些人掌握着我们的命运。

And I think we particularly need this in the areas of politics and government because these are the people who hold our fate in their hand.

如果他们——比如说——发表鲁莽的言论，或者只是基于各种刻板印象和偏见相互揣测，而不是以完整的个体身份真正地临在与相处，那么我们只会继续陷入那个恶性循环，这是我们许多心理学家长期以来都意识到的、只会导致毁灭的循环。

And if they're spouting off reckless rhetoric, let's say, or just presuming all kinds of stereotypic and prejudicial things about each other and aren't really sitting with one another whole person to whole person in a present way, then we're just going to keep spiraling into that vicious spiral that many of Us psychologists have been aware of for a long time, which just leads to destruction.

嗯，你也写过关于毁灭的内容。

Well, you've written about destruction as well.

你写过人性的阴暗面。

You've written about the dark side of humanity.

是的。

Yes.

还有《极化思维》。

And The Polarized Mind.

你写的很多书在当今时代都非常应景，我会向本播客的听众推荐这些著作。

A lot of these books you've written are very relevant in this day and age, I would direct the listener of this podcast to those books.

那么机器人技术能激励所有人吗？

So can robotics inspire all?

嗯，这是个好问题。

Well, that's a good question.

我是说，我确实尽量不做一个反技术主义者。

I mean, I really try not to be a Luddite.

在这本书里我并不认为自己是卢德分子。

I don't see myself as a Luddite in this book.

我提出培养敬畏感可以成为我们机械化进程的补充维度。

I'm proposing that cultivation of the sense of awe can be a complementary dimension to our move toward mechanization.

所以一切都取决于我们如何对待这些机器和数字化。

So everything has to do with the how we approach these machines and this digitalization.

现在情况会变得棘手，因为我认为我们正快速丧失教导人们'如何做'的能力，尤其是那些从小几乎第一天就接触手持设备的所谓'数字原住民'孩子们。

Now it's going to get tough because I think we're losing rapidly the ability to teach people the how, especially the young kids, the so called cyber babies who grew up with handheld devices from day one virtually.

如果他们的父母也一直沉迷于这些设备，这些年轻人又何时才能接触到我们所说的更真实的生活体验和人际关系呢？

And if their parents are constantly in those things, when are these young people going to be able to even be exposed to what we might call a more present experience of life and relationships?

但我确实认为，如果我们能将其视为优先事项，如果我们能意识到这种机器生活模式或机器中介意识的严重性，或许我们就会愿意投入更多时间、精力和资金到那些帮助人们学习如何以好奇探索的心态、谦逊的态度去接触虚拟现实或电脑信息检索的项目中，甚至让人对虚拟现实中的旅程产生共情。

But I do think if we can make that a priority, if we can realize that the seriousness of this problem of the machine model for living or the machine mediated consciousness that perhaps we would be willing to pour more time, energy, money into programs that help people to learn how to approach, let's say virtual reality or their computers accessing information with a sense of wonder and discovery, with a sense of humility and also feeling that one could perhaps be compassionate about a journey one took in virtual reality.

是的。

Yeah.

或者在设计这种体验时可以非常有创意，因为我们将越来越有能力做到这一点。

Or could be very creative in devising that experience because we're gonna be able to do that more and more.

我们将能够设计自己的旅程或互动方式，要知道通过这些机器能获取如此多的历史、文化和技术知识。

We're gonna be able to devise our own journeys or engagements, you know, with these machine access to so much knowledge, historical, cultural, technical.

再次强调，关键在于我们如何运用这些知识以及以何种态度接触它们。

Again, the question of how we put those to use and how we approach them.

没错。

Yeah.

如果我们能保持人性的这个核心——这种全身心活在当下的能力，我认为我们就有很大机会创造出这个美丽新世界。

If we preserve this core of our humanity, this capacity to be present in a whole bodied way, think that we have a good shot at creating this brave new world Yes.

以一种能让人深感满足的方式。

In a way that can be deeply gratifying to people.

我倾向于以探索为导向，而非限制人类潜能。

I like the discovery oriented rather than closing off human capacities.

是的。

Yeah.

归根结底，这才是最重要的。

That's what it's all about at the end of the day.

我喜欢用嘉宾的金句来结束播客，这是我特别欣赏你说过的一句话。

I like to end my podcast with, one of my favorite quotes from my guests, and so here's my favorite quote of yours.

冒险与敬畏是保持生命活力与进化的关键，与技术进步相结合，或许能为我们不断拓展的领域带来奇迹。

Adventure and awe are key to the perpetuation of vibrant evolving lives, and in combination with technological advances, may bring marvels to our emerging repertoires.

就是这样。

There you go.

我很喜欢这句话。

I love it.

总结了我刚才说的内容。

Summarizes what I just said.

我知道。

I know.

我知道。

I know.

我尽力我

I try I

试图找到能体现这个人本质核心的那句话。

try to find I try try to find the quote that kind of nails the the core of the person's being.

不。

No.

非常好。

It's very good.

嗯，这句话可是你自己写的。

Well, you're the one that wrote it.

非常感谢你今天能来参加播客，我希望听众们能真正认识到你是心理治疗领域多么宝贵的财富，你的思想在当今引起了如此强烈的共鸣。

But thank you so much for being on the podcast today, I I hope the listeners really realize what a treasure you are in the field of psychotherapy and your ideas have so much resonance today.

谢谢你今天和我聊天。

Thank you for chatting with me today.

非常感谢你，斯科特。

Well, thank you so much, Scott.

我想特别向你致意，因为我觉得你正沿着这些基于整体的道路前行，敏锐地意识到生活中神秘维度的重要性，对可能性保持开放态度，并且关注我们生命的整体体验。

And I just want to put a shout out to you because I feel like you're very much moving along these all based paths and are acutely aware of the importance of the mysterious, you know, dimension of living and and of of being open to possibility and also aware of our whole experience of life.

是的。

Yes.

而不是仅仅选择最便捷或能立竿见影的部分。

Not not just cherry picking, which is most expedient or yields instant results.

这正是我努力生活的方式。

Well, that's definitely how I try to live my life.

非常感谢你这么说。

So I really appreciate you saying that.

非常感谢，祝你晚安。

Well, thank you so much and have a good night.

好的。

Alright.

你也是。

You too.

谢谢，斯科特。

Thanks, Scott.

感谢收听《心理学播客》。

Thanks for listening to the Psychology Podcast.

希望你喜欢本期节目。

I hope you enjoyed this episode.

如果你想对听到的内容做出反应，欢迎加入thepsychologypodcast.com的讨论。

If you'd like to react in some way to something you heard, I encourage you to join in the discussion at thepsychologypodcast.com.

网址是thepsychologypodcast.com。

That's thepsychologypodcast.com.

同时，请在iTunes上为《心理学播客》添加评分和评论。

Also, add a rating and review of The Psychology Podcast on iTunes.

感谢您对播客的大力支持，下次节目我们将继续探讨心智、大脑、行为与创造力，敬请收听。

Thanks for being such a great supporter of the podcast, and tune in next time for more on the mind, brain, behavior, and creativity.