茱莉亚·肖 || 人性化解读邪恶

这是一档iHeart播客节目。

This is an iHeart podcast.

我是迈克尔·刘易斯。我的畅销书《大空头》讲述了2008年美国房地产市场泡沫形成与破裂的故事。十年前，《大空头》被改编成奥斯卡获奖电影，现在我将首次以有声书形式呈现给大家，由尤鲁斯·特鲁利倾情献声。书中关于做空市场的故事、无人监管金融体系的代价，其现实意义至今仍发人深省。立即在pushkin.fm/audiobooks或各大有声书平台获取《大空头》。

Michael Lewis here. My best selling book, The Big Short, tells the story of the buildup and birth of The US housing market back in 2008. A decade ago, The Big Short was made into an Academy Award winning movie, and now I'm bringing it to you for the first time as an audiobook narrated by Eurus Truly. The Big Short's story, what it means to bet against the market, and who really pays for an unchecked financial system is as relevant today as it's ever been. Get the Big Short now at pushkin.fm/audiobooks or wherever audiobooks are sold.

我是伊娃·朗格利亚。

I'm Eva Longoria.

我是梅塔戈梅兹约翰。本周在我们的播客《历史饕客》中，我们将探讨牡蛎文化，还有米安比奇尔特别嘉宾登场。

And I'm Maytagomezjohan. And this week on our podcast, hungry for history, we talk oysters plus the Miambichir stops by.

如果你不爱吃牡蛎，那我们没什么好聊的。

And if you are not an oyster lover, don't even talk to me.

古雅典人曾在牡蛎壳上刻名投票放逐政客。所以英语'ostracized（放逐）'这个词其实源自'oyster（牡蛎）'。没想到吧？

Ancient Athenians used to scratch names onto oyster shells to vote politicians into exile. So our word ostracized is related to the word oyster. No

太神奇了。让牡蛎投票复兴吧。收听

way. Bring back the Ostercon. Listen to

《历史探秘》正在播出

Hungry for History on

在iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客或任何你获取播客的平台。

the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

我是安娜·奥尔蒂斯。

It's Ana Ortiz.

我是马克·安迪·德利卡多。

And I'm Mark and Delicado.

你可能通过希尔达这个角色认识我们

You might know us as Hilda

还有贾斯汀。

And Justin.

来自《丑女贝蒂》。

From Ugly Betty.

欢迎收听我们的新播客《Viva Betty》。

Welcome to our new podcast, Viva Betty.

太棒了。我们正在从头到尾重温这部剧集。

Yay. We're rewatching the series from start to finish.

并与标志性嘉宾对话，比如贝蒂本人——亚美莉卡·费雷拉。

And talking to iconic guests like Betty herself, America Ferrera.

当眼镜戴上的那一刻，我们感觉这就是我们的贝蒂。

There was this moment when the glasses went on and it was like, this is our Betty.

请在iHeartRadio应用、Apple Podcasts或任何你获取播客的平台收听《Viva Betty》。

Listen to Viva Betty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

欢迎来到《心理学播客》，我们将带你探索心智、大脑、行为与创造力。我是斯科特·巴里·考夫曼博士。每期节目我都会与嘉宾展开对话，激发你的思维，让你更深入地理解自我、他人和我们所处的世界。希望我们还能为你展现人类潜能的可能。感谢收听，请享受本期节目。

Welcome to the Psychology Podcast, where we give you insights into the mind, brain, behavior, and creativity. I'm doctor Scott Barry Kaufman. And in each episode, have a conversation with a guest who will stimulate your mind and give you a greater understanding of yourself, others, and the world we live in. Hopefully, we'll also provide a glimpse into human possibility. Thanks for listening, and enjoy the podcast.

大家好。在开始今天的节目之前，我想先做个简短声明。本期内容较为敏感，涉及许多人性的禁忌话题。我觉得这些话题非常引人入胜，但建议听众在收听前先查看我们将讨论的主题列表，因为其中某些内容可能会引起部分人的不适。那么话不多说，让我们开始今天的节目。

Hey everyone. Before we start today's episode, I just wanted to give a little disclaimer. This episode is a bit sensitive and we cover so many taboo topics of human nature. I find it absolutely fascinating, but I do suggest that people read a list of the topics that we're gonna cover before they listen to today's episode, as some of the topics may, be, upsetting to some people. So without further ado, let's, begin the episode.

今天很高兴邀请到朱莉娅·肖博士参加我们的播客。肖博士是一位心理科学家，她以在记忆和犯罪心理学领域的研究而闻名。

Today, it's great to have Doctor. Julia Shaw on the podcast. Doctor. Shaw is a psychological scientist. She is best known for her work in the areas of memory and criminal psychology.

2017年，肖博士联合创立了名为Spot的记忆科学与人工智能初创公司。Spot帮助员工举报职场骚扰和歧视，助力组织构建更具包容性和尊重的工作环境。2016年，她出版了畅销处女作《记忆错觉》，该书已被翻译成20种语言。2019年，她又推出了第二本国际畅销书《人性黑暗面的科学》。

In 2017, Doctor. Shaw co founded the memory science and artificial intelligence startup called Spot. Spot helps employees report workplace harassment and discrimination and empowers organizations to build a more inclusive and respectful work environment. In 2016, she published her bestselling debut book, The Memory Illusion, which has appeared in 20 languages. And in 2019, she published her second international bestseller called The Science Behind Humanity's Dark Side.

今天能和您交谈真是太棒了，朱莉娅·肖博士。

So great to chat with you today, Doctor. Julia Shaw.

非常荣幸能来到这里。

Wonderful to be here.

我们正在尝试各种新事物，所以希望有备无患。希望这次能成功，希望视频能正常输出。那么，今天我们就来探讨人性的阴暗面吧。当然。

We're trying all sorts of new things right now, so I hope backups and backups. I hope that this works. I hope the video comes out. So, you know, let's explore the dark side of human nature today. Sure.

为什么不呢，对吧？

Why not, right?

是啊，这是我最喜欢的话题之一。

Yeah. One of my favorite topics.

是的，这也是我最喜欢的话题之一。我真的很欣赏你探讨这个话题的方式，非常细腻，非常人性化。

Yes. It's one of my favorite topics too. I really love how you approach the topic. It's very sensitive. It's very human.

在讨论所谓的'恶'时，这种视角确实很少见。人类有种倾向，总想把那些'坏人'与我们自己彻底割裂开来，但我们却又从观看恐怖片中获得快感——当然不是所有人，但我个人很喜欢恐怖片。你喜欢恐怖片吗？

And that's something you really don't see a lot in discussions of, quote, evil. There's this human tendency for us to want to separate the other bad person from ourselves so much, yet we still get all this enjoyment from watching, like, horror movie well, people no. I guess not everyone does, but some people I love horror movies. Do you like horror movies?

我确实喜欢恐怖片。

I do like horror movies.

我本来

I was

只是好奇问问。我不太喜欢传统恐怖片，但我确实喜欢心理恐怖类型的电影。

just curious. I don't think horror, but I do like psychological horror movies.

嗯。那你是怎么对这个话题产生兴趣的？

Yeah. So how do you get interest in this topic?

我对'恶'产生兴趣，更准确说是犯罪心理学。追溯起来，我父亲是偏执型精神分裂症患者，所以我从小就意识到某些人的现实认知与他人截然不同，这促使我对心理学产生兴趣。在这个过程中我还发现了哲学，并对其产生了浓厚兴趣。当我深入心理学领域后，我认为最有价值的工作就是帮助那些既可能伤害自己又可能伤害他人的人群，这就是我最终选择研究犯罪者的原因。

I got interested in evil, well criminal psychology more specifically. When I was looking, so taking it a couple steps back actually, my dad is a paranoid schizophrenic, so since I was little I realized that some people have a very different reality than others, and this is why I became interested in psychology. And along the way I discovered philosophy and had a real, of took a real interest in that as well. And once I sort of dove into the world of psychology I decided that the most good in my view could come from doing or working with groups of people who not only are potentially harmful to themselves but also to others. And that's where I landed with offenders.

对我来说最大的疑问始终是：为什么那些被称作‘好人’或看似无趣的人会做出可怕的事？我认为这深刻揭示了关于我、你以及那些已知犯下暴行的人的本质。我们是如何从普通人变成那样的？证据清楚地表明这是可能的，而且过程可能比你想象的更容易。

And the biggest question for me always was why do good in quotes, slash boring people do terrible things? And I think this is something that is deeply, deeply fascinating also about sort of me as an individual, you as an individual, people who we know have already committed atrocity. How do you get from us to there? And I think evidence clearly suggests that you can, and that it's probably easier than you'd like it to be.

确实如此。不过我有点犹豫是否该问太多私人问题——如果你对任何问题感到不适，请随时告诉我。你一生中是否从父亲身上观察到某些共同特征？那些最初让你害怕或下意识想要屏蔽的特质？

Yeah, for sure, and did you, I'm so wary of asking you too many personal questions, but did you ever through your life see some common if you if I ask anything and you don't feel comfortable answering it, of course, please let me know. Of course. Of course. Did you see any common characteristics by looking at your father that kind of, like, maybe at first scared you or, like, made you, like, be like, oh my gosh. Got to cordon that off from my consciousness?

精神分裂症最令人着迷的是——尤其是伴随偏执妄想时——你会觉得处处都是恶魔或跟踪者。超市收银员、家庭成员、推销电话的陌生人...在你眼中他们都参与其中。坦白说这种生活状态极度痛苦，患者会认为所有人都在蓄意伤害自己，甚至形成以自我为中心的邪恶阴谋论。

Well, what's fascinating about schizophrenia is that you build well, especially when it's combined with paranoia, is that you see evil or stalkers everywhere. And so, you know, it can be a checkout clerk at a grocery store, it can be a family member, it can be someone who's calling, you know, those annoying people who call your phone to see, you know, to sell you stuff. They're all in on it. And it must be a deeply distressing way to live frankly. And in that moment what you're doing is you're basically making out as if all these people are out to hurt you and that they're, if you will, even evil or partisan conspiracy of which, and this is the narcissism piece of it, of which you're the center.

没错，正是这样。

Yeah, that's right.

但这确实展示了：一个人如何能在他人眼中看到黑暗，即使周围人都看不到。我认为这种现实构建机制非常迷人，某种程度上我们都在这样做。

But still, it definitely, it shows you how one person can look at anyone and see darkness, even though other people around them don't see that. And I think that sort of reality crafting is really fascinating, and we all do it to some extent.

太有意思了。我们确实常这样——轻易就断言‘那人真是自恋狂’之类的话

So fascinating. We really do do it. We so easily say, oh, that person's such a narcissist or, you know

他在挪动她之后说道

He says after he moves her

头发。我们通常会用这个词来形容前任。我觉得大家都这样。怎么说呢？精神病态也是常见的，每个人都有个精神病态或自恋的前任。

hair. Well, it's usually we say that we usually say that about our exes. I think, everyone like that. What do what do say? Psychopath is another common Everyone has a psychopathic or narcissistic ex

是啊。是啊。

Yeah. Yeah.

在他们脑海里。顺便说一句，对于现在看不到视频只能听播客的听众，我今天特意穿了件皮夹克来聊天，想让自己看起来更叛逆。总之，我就是想...因为

In their heads. So by the way, for people who are can't see the video right now who are listening to the podcast, I've put on a leather jacket today for this chat because I'm trying to look edgy. So, anyway, I just wanted to because that's

叛逆人士就是这样的。他们都穿皮夹克。

what that's what edgy people look like. They wear leather jackets.

没错。他们就是这样的。他们就是这样的。

Yeah. That's what they do. That's what they do.

六十年代的人。

People in the sixties.

是啊。说实话，我生错了时代。我真心觉得自己本该是'沙娜娜'乐队的一员——这个梗现在没人知道了。但'沙娜娜'里有个叫鲍泽的角色，总是穿着皮夹克留着黑发。

Yes. Well, I was born in the wrong era, to be honest. I really do feel like I would have been, like, in Sha Na Na. That's a reference no one knows about. But there was a character in Sha Na Na called Bowser who was like he always wore the leather jacket and black hair.

他的声音一直很低沉。他会这样，哒哒哒哒哒。总之。

He always had a very deep voice. He'd be like, da da da da da. Anyway.

他是《马里奥赛车》中库巴的灵感来源吗？

Was he the inspiration for the Mario Kart, Bowser?

哦，这真是个有趣的问题。我从未考虑过这个。也许吧。也许吧。你刚才说的是‘坏蛋’吗？

Oh, that's very interesting question. I don't I've never contemplated that. Maybe. Maybe. You said a badass?

是啊。是啊。是啊。就像你一样。我也像那样吗？

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like you. Was like I was like also?

你刚才说的是‘也’吗？还是像库巴那样或者其他库巴。总之，就像我们所有人一样。好吧。酷。

Did you say also? Or like also like Bowser or the other Bowser. Anyway, like all of us. Okay. Cool.

不说这个了。你在书中指出了很多人类的虚伪，这真的让我...真的让我...真的让我深受触动。这本书让我大开眼界。你知道吗？我觉得你说得对。

Moving on from that. So you say I mean, you point out a lot about human hypocrisy in your book, and it really got me it really it really just got me yeah. I mean, the book blew my mind. You know? I'm like, you're right.

这是你的本意吗，彻底颠覆人们通常的认知？

Like, was that your intention to, like, completely turn people's normal assumptions on its head?

这就是我的想法。我喜欢挑战人们对自己在世界上定位的认知，这确实如此，同时我也试图在邪恶主题中加入一些不那么可预测的内容。因此书中确实包含了一些其他关于邪恶或相关主题书籍中较少涉及的思想实验和话题。重点在于探讨类似'可爱侵略性'这样的现象——比如想要伤害自己宠物的冲动，这类内容通常不会出现在讨论邪恶的书籍中。

That was the idea. I like challenging people's ideas about themselves in the world, and that was definitely, and I also try to in evil put things that are less predictable into it. So there's definitely some thought experiments and some topics that don't seem to feature much in other books on evil or related books. And so that was the point, was to sort of like cute aggression, like wanting to hurt your pet. Like that doesn't feature in books on evil typically.

但我觉得最引人入胜的是，当我们把日常经历与更具灾难性的伤害行为联系起来时。然后你去探究这些现象背后共通的底层逻辑，在研究过程中你会发现：我们实施伤害的动机与所谓'作恶'的动机，其实和我们做其他所有事情的动机同根同源。因此恶劣行为是人类本质中如此基础的部分，问题就在于我们该如何减少这种行为，如何减少自身的虚伪？因为我们甚至经常违背自己的道德准则，这点总是让我着迷。有时我被指责为道德相对主义者（虽然我并不认同），但我确实认为主观认知很重要，因为每个人都认为自己的道德观是正确的，这是需要时刻牢记的重点。另一方面，问题就变成了：你究竟有没有达到自己的道德标准？

But I think it's most fascinating when we see sort of everyday experiences and we link them to more catastrophic, you know, harmful behaviour. And then you look at what the underpinning sort of commonality is between those things and that I think is among the most fascinating when you look at this research is there are so many commonalities and the reasons we do harm and the reasons we do what you might call evil are the same reasons that we do basically, you know, all kinds of other things, and so it's such a fundamental part of being human to act badly, and then the question is just how do we how do we reduce the amount that we act badly, and how do we reduce our hypocrisies, Cause we don't even act in line with our own morality which I always find fascinating. So this is, I sometimes get accused of being a moral relativist which I don't think I am but I definitely see that subjectivity matters because everybody thinks that their morality is the right one and I think that's a really important thing to remember at all times. On the other hand, know, the question becomes like, are you even living up to your own moral standards?

而答案是大多数人都没有，那么我们该如何改变这种状况？

And the answer is most of us aren't, and so how do we change that?

是的。这是个非常好的问题。我知道你并不喜欢用'邪恶'来标签化他人，这点你已经说得很清楚了。

Yeah. That's a very good question. Now you're not a big fan of calling people evil. No. And I know you're not.

你如何将这种观点与某些人格特质存在个体差异的事实相调和？你会不会认为这些只是人类进化过程中呈现的不同倾向，本质上没有客观对错，只是我们在不同情境下对这些行为做出的评判？或者说，在你界定'邪恶'与否时是否存在任何边界？我想问的就是这个。

And you've made that point clear. How do you reconcile that with the existence of individual differences in certain personality traits? Would you just say that these are all just dispositions that are on offer through the course of human evolution and that there's no objective you know, these are just judgments we put on these behaviors in a different context. They could be something that, like, do you have any, like, boundaries at all in terms of what you're willing to not call evil or call evil? I guess that's what I'm asking.

对我来说，'邪恶'是我们用来标签他人的术语。我们通常不会用这个词描述自己，除非是在非常轻松的玩笑场合，比如'我真邪恶，正在吃巧克力蛋糕'这种显然与我们讨论主题无关的调侃。

So for me, evil is a term that we use to other people. Evil is something that we usually don't use to describe ourselves unless we're sort of, you know, we use it in almost jokingly in very lighthearted settings, like, I'm evil, I'm eating a chocolate cake, you know, instead of one big naughty, which is obviously not what we're talking about.

我刚在和你通话前吃了条巧克力——太邪恶了。

I just had a chocolate bar before I talked to you. Evil.

但实际上我们并不真的以这个词的本意来使用它描述自己。我们用它，也不仅用来描述亲友。即便他们行为恶劣，我们也会说他们做了某事，比如偷窃甚至杀人，但我们几乎不会说他们本质邪恶或天生如此。这让我困扰，因为我认为根本不存在天生的恶人。

But in sort of in reality we don't really use that term in the way that it's, you know, meant to be used to describe ourselves. We use it, and we don't just use it to describe friends and family either. We might, even if they've acted abhorrently, we will say that they, you know, they have done a thing. They have, you know, stolen something or killed somebody even, but we won't say that they're evil necessarily or almost never. So evil is this word that we seem to reserve for people who we want to dehumanize, and who we want to set out as these monsters who potentially can't be changed, who are maybe born that way, and and that's what bothers me is that I don't think that exists.

我不认为有人天生邪恶，这个词本身一旦使用就是一种逃避，是懒惰的表现。你等于是将一个人的全部行为、思想和感受浓缩成一个词，而这与我如此不同以至于我根本无需尝试理解。

I don't think you're born evil, and so the very word itself, as soon you're using it, it's cop out, it's lazy. What you've done is you've said, I'm gonna, you know, distill everything that this person has done, or, and thinks, and feels into this one word, and it's so different for me that I don't even need to try and understand it.

当然，我完全理解你的观点。但某些行为与神经系统的关联存在个体差异，人们倾向于将其中一些标记为更邪恶。首先我们能否谈谈邪恶的神经科学？比如，告诉我...对。

Sure, I definitely get that point, but there's individual differences in some of these neurological associations with certain behaviors that people tend to label as more evil than others. So can we talk about some of first of all, let's talk about the neuroscience of evil. You know? Like, tell tell me yeah. Yeah.

没错。顺便说，我本以为你会带英国口音。

Exactly. Let me tell me by the way, was expecting you to have a British accent.

是吗？是的。唐尼，我确实住在伦敦。

Were you? Yes. Donny Well, I do live in London.

你住在伦敦对吧？

You live in London. Right?

是的。

I do. Yeah.

我不知道为什么我总觉得你是英国人，可能是因为你在伦敦住过吧。

I don't know why I thought you were English for some reason. I think well, it's because you lived in London.

没错，确实如此。你是哪里人？我真希望自己有英国口音。

Yeah. Exactly. Where are you from? I wish I had a British accent.

你是哪里人？

Where are you from?

我来自加拿大。

I'm from Canada.

哦，加拿大。所以你...你是加拿大人？

Oh, Canada. You're so you're you're Canadian?

我有一半加拿大血统，一半德国血统。

I'm half Canadian, half German.

好的，好的，不错。好了，这个小插曲到此为止，因为我真没想到会听到英国口音。

Okay. Okay. Cool. Okay. With that interlude out of the way, because I really didn't I was expecting a British accent.

好吧，我并没有感到失望，我只是说说而已。我确实...是的。

Okay. I'm not, like, disappointed. I'm just just saying. I did. Yeah.

是的，我没有失望。不过好吧，那么我们来谈谈这个——邪恶的神经科学。

Yeah. I'm not disappointed. But okay. Yeah. So let's talk about this, the neuroscience of of evil.

然后我想，我们可以先讨论那个基本结构，再把它和你观看色情内容时的大脑反应联系起来。我觉得可以把这两件事结合起来谈。

And then I thought, like, we could talk about that basic structure and then link it to the your brain on porn. I thought I thought we could link those two things together.

当然。是的，从神经科学角度来说，我在书里做了一个思想实验——我重构了希特勒的大脑。

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. I mean, in terms of the neuroscience, so in the book, I do a thought experiment, is where I reconstruct Hitler's brain.

当然现实中这是不可能的，因为他自杀了，我们没有他的大脑。但假设我们要做，他的大脑可能是什么样子？是否存在某种脑部特征造就了他？基本上就是围绕心理健康、精神疾病这类问题展开——他是否被诊断过精神疾病？答案是否定的，所以可能与此无关。是自恋症吗？可能有一点。

Now of course that's impossible in terms of reality because he killed himself and we don have his brain, but you know if we were to what would it potentially look like? Like are there, is there something in his brain that made him the man he became? And basically going through sort of, the questions around mental health, mental illness, you know, was he ever diagnosed with a mental illness, not really is the answer, so it's probably nothing related to that. Was it narcissism? Probably a little bit.

他是精神病患者吗？很可能

Was he a psychopath? Probably

不是。

not.

真的吗？我是说，虽然可能存在很多争论，但很可能并非如此。

Really? So I mean there's all these, well probably, there's lots of argument, but probably not.

如果泰勒不是精神病患者，我们是否需要重新评估精神病患者的定义？

He If seems Taylor wasn't a psychopath, don't we need to reassess our definition of psychopaths?

关于精神病患者，我们确实需要重新定义这个概念。人们很容易认为做可怕事情的人就是精神病患者，但纵观历史，尤其是那些看似至少部分受政治驱动、可能以自我为中心的领导者，他们追求自身利益，但这并不使他们成为精神病患者。这两者仍是不同的概念，对吧？不过说到希特勒的大脑构造，据我所知，他的个性或人格中并没有任何特定之处能让我们在对比他的大脑与我的大脑时做出明确区分。

Well psychopaths, I mean we do need to reassess our definition of psychopaths. That's a whole another I think it's easy to assume that people who do terrible things are psychopaths, but actually when we look at history especially I think leaders who do seem to be at least partially politically driven and potentially ecocentric so they're sort of out for themselves, but that doesn't make them psychopaths. I mean those are still different things right? But yes, so breaking down sort of what Hitler's brain could have looked like. Basically as far as I could tell there's nothing specifically about his personality or about him as a person that should make us be able to identify let's say my brain next to his brain.

就像你不会——我认为你无法辨别出差异。这一点非常重要，因为我们常假设存在某种所谓的‘e因子’。我曾读过一篇名为《e因子》的论文，甚至不确定它是否在开玩笑。但显然，根本不存在什么‘邪恶因子’或‘e基因’。

Like you wouldn't, I don't think you'd able to tell a difference. And I think that's really important to think about in terms of you know we sort of assume that there's sort of this e factor somewhere. I read a paper once called the e factor and I couldn't tell if it was tongue in cheek or not. But obviously, there's no such thing as an e factor, the evil factor. There's no e g.

你是指人格的黑暗核心吗？

Are you talking about the dark core of personality?

嗯，有黑暗四联征和黑暗三联征，这些是对一组人格特征的戏剧化描述方式。

Well, there's a there's a dark tetrad and dark triads, is also a dramatic way of describing a cluster of personality traits.

确实如此。

That s true.

确实，我们讨论过一种E因素。实际上，当我们更广泛地观察杀人犯的大脑时，精神病态杀人犯与普通杀人犯在大脑结构上确实存在差异。比如在杏仁核——也就是产生同理心的区域——你能看到明显不同。前额叶皮层（负责决策的区域）也存在差异，但这些研究对象都是已被定罪的罪犯。他们是兼具精神病态和杀人行为的特定群体，因此大脑结构与行为确实存在相关性，但这种关联性还不足以让我们仅凭扫描大脑就断言‘这人将来会变成恶棍’。

But yeah, there s a sort of factor E was discussed, truth of the matter is like probably when we look at the brains of murderers more generally, there do seem to be some differences between psychopathic murderers and just normal murderers, in terms of their brain structures. And so you can see some differences in the amygdala, so where empathy is created, or is among other things created. You can see some differences in the prefrontal cortex, so where decision making happens, but these are also offenders who have been caught. So these are psychopaths who are also murderers, so that s a specific category, And so there does seem to be a correlation with brain structures there, but it's not reliable enough that you could ever just peer into someone's brain and say, oh, this person's gonna become a, you know, a terrible person.

真有意思。虽然不会直接让人变成恶徒，但有些因素确实会增加特定行为的发生概率。你总不会认为大脑和行为之间毫无关联吧？

So interesting. So become a terrible person, but there are things that will make it more likely that you'll have certain behaviors. Surely surely you're not saying there's no connection between the brain and behavior.

当然有关联。但有人主张用脑扫描来筛查潜在危险人群，或是事后为行为开脱——比如在法庭上出示脑扫描结果说‘这人是精神病态所以必然杀人’，这就很荒谬了。大脑与行为的关系没那么简单。某些脑部结构特征可能形成 predispositions（行为倾向），但未必会导致恶行。

There is, of course, but I think that the idea that we could either use it to, this is a brain scans to filter out people who might be at risk, to after the fact sort of excuse behaviours. Is the idea of sort of putting brain scans into court cases and saying well this person was a psychopath, they had to kill, which of course also is ridiculous. It's just not that simple the connection between brain and behaviour. It's in terms of structures not obviously the brain causes all behaviour but in terms of you know looking at specific things and predispositions they don't necessarily result in bad behaviour.

这很有趣，因为人们总试图用大脑预测智力水平，就像现在用机器学习算法预测创造力那样。我的研究领域涉及天才特质，但预测天才恐怕和预测大脑中的邪恶一样难以捉摸。

So interesting because people try to use the brain to predict intelligence levels, know, or to I mean, it's like anything else. People try to to use now machine learning algorithms to try to predict, you know, how does the brain can we predict creativity? You know, my field or genius. Yeah. It it seems like predicting genius is probably as elusive as predicting evil in the brain.

你怎么看？确实。

What do you say? Yeah.

预测善行其实和预测恶行同样困难。即便是诺贝尔奖得主，也无法预判高智商者是否会做出社会认可的善举。前额叶皮层受损确实更容易导致错误决策——比如让斗殴失控升级为故意伤害甚至谋杀。这类人通常情绪管理能力和决策能力较弱，这种倾向可能自幼存在，但并不意味着他们必定会做出我们所谓的邪恶行为。

Or or people are predicting good behavior is as elusive as predicting bad behavior. So so being a normal laureate probably also can't generally see if someone's going to apply, even if they are intelligent, if they're gonna apply in ways that we consider good. So I mean this isn't to undersell the fact that there are predispositions in the brain that make it more likely you're going to make what society generally considers bad decisions. So having damage to your prefrontal cortex, again back to that sort of, you are going to make worse decisions and so that might include you know letting a fight get out of control and you know attempting grievous bodily harm and in the process murdering them. So I mean that's more likely to happen if you're less able to manage your emotions, if you're less able to make good decisions And that is something that from small on you are you can be predisposed to be so but it doesn't mean that you're going to engage in necessarily in bad decisions in a way that we would consider evil.

明白了吗？这里存在太多微妙之处了。

So make sense? So much nuance.

确实有道理。我很欣赏细微差别，真的。我特别欣赏你在书中展现的这种细致入微。我正想把这点与过度观看色情内容对大脑的影响联系起来，然后谈谈相关性不等于因果性的问题？

Does make sense. I appreciate nuance. I really do. And I appreciate the nuance you put into this book. I was thinking about linking this a little bit to what excessive porn viewing seems to do the brain, and then the difference between correlation and causation?

当然。

Sure.

好的。你能稍微谈谈这个吗？你书中专门有个章节讨论色情内容，而且确实加入了细致分析。我知道这是个敏感话题，不过我们还是聊聊最新研究怎么说——色情内容是否会让人变邪恶？

Yeah. Could you talk a little bit about that? You have a whole section on pornography, and you really do add the nuance there. And I know this is a hot topic, but yeah, let's talk a little about what does the latest research say on whether or not pornography makes you evil?

色情内容之间的联系非常值得研究。当我写书时——至少我写书的方式——我不喜欢预先知道书的最终结论。比如我开始写这本关于邪恶的书时，人们从一开始就不断追问核心观点是什么。而我当时的想法是：我想探究作恶者背后的人性，试图全面审视这个问题，不因某人说过什么可怕言论就轻易否定。

So the link between pornography, pornography was a fascinating thing to research. So when you write a book, or when I write books at least, I don't like knowing exactly what the outcome of my book is going to be. In other words, so when I was writing, when I started telling people that I was writing a book on evil, people kept asking me right from the beginning, so you know what's the main, what's the take home message? And I went in sort of saying, you know, I wanna examine the humanity behind people who do terrible things. I wanna make, like try and look for it everywhere, so not be dissuaded just because someone said something terrible.

我会尽力寻找人性面，探究行为动机，而不是简单地贴上'怪物'标签——那太容易了。这是我知道的，但我不确定具体研究路径会走向何方。色情内容的研究特别有趣，因为许多研究者自动假定色情有害，但这种假设本身缺乏依据。这源于长期以来对健康性行为的刻板认知，关于什么是'正常'性取向的预设，这也是我在书中讨论特殊性癖好的原因——因为存在太多...

I'm gonna just try my best to look for the humanity and look for the reasons why, rather than just saying this person's a monster because that's too easy. So that I knew, but I didn't know what sort of the pathway would be and which research I would end up really like getting stuck in in the process. And porn, the research on porn I found fascinating because it's a place where it seems many researchers automatically assume that porn is bad, and there's no good reason to assume that. I think this is a long line of sort of assumptions about what healthy sexual behavior means, what heteronormative, you know, what we should and shouldn't be into, and this is why I was talking about fetishes in the book, because I think there's a lot of

这个我们稍后会讨论到的，会讨论的。

Oh we'll get there. We'll get there. Get there.

社会对性生活方式有很强的规范压力，一旦偏离就会被视为异常。所以当你查阅色情研究时，很难不看到宣称色情有害的文章——虽然我认为这不可能是事实（这也是书中我自问的问题），毕竟几乎所有人都看过色情内容，但绝大多数人并没有变成性犯罪者，没有走上那种逐渐麻木、最终需要极端刺激的堕落道路。实际上...

So there's a lot of pressures to, you know, live sexual life in a very specific way, and so as soon as you deviate from that, it's perceived to be bad. And so when you look at the research on porn, it basically, it's hard to not find articles that say porn is bad, even though I don't think, I mean that can't be right, is basically what ask myself in the book, because basically everybody watches porn, and most people do not become, you know, sex offenders. Most people do not go down this dark and nefarious pathway and get more and more desensitized, and suddenly require sort of this incredibly sensational porn to or for that matter, you know, actual sex to to match their porn. Well, you really And so what

你真的认为有那么多人吗？你是说超过七八成？你日常生活中遇到的人里，你觉得大概有多少比例？我是说，你到底想表达什么？你觉得实际比例是多少？

I You really think like that that many people Do you think you're talking like over seventy, eighty? What number would you say of people that you encounter in your daily life? Like, I mean, what are you saying? Like, what percentage do you think it really is?

很难获得准确数字，因为很多人对色情内容这类事非常敏感，要获取好的样本数据真的非常困难。老实说，我也不知道目前世界各地的具体数据，而且肯定差异很大。但如果要我猜的话，我会说男性接近80%。绝对的。

It's hard to get an accurate number for that because a lot of people are really key g about things like porn, and getting good samples for that is really, really hard. And to be honest, I don't actually know what the current numbers are in different parts of the world, and I'm sure that they differ wildly. But if I were to guess, I would say for men, it's close to 80%. Totally.

至于女性，

For women,

大概吧。绝对的。

probably. Totally.

天啊。

Mother.

听起来有点惨。

Sounds sort of poor.

是啊。那你觉得女性比例会是多少？

Yeah. Then what percentage would you say for women?

低一些。所以我猜更接近20或30。但仍然很多。显然有时候你们可能会一起看色情内容。这包括漫画，包括动画，包括各种我们可能认为能引起性兴奋的内容。

Lower. So I guess it's closer to 20 or 30. But still a lot. And obviously sometimes you might watch porn together. So and this includes manga, this includes you know animations, this includes all kinds of different things that we might consider sexually arousing.

也包括小说。我是说《五十度灰》就是畅销书。那绝对是一种色情内容，只是不一定是我们直觉上认为的那种形式。

Includes stories as well. I mean 50 Shades of Grey was a bestseller. That's definitely a type of porn, just not in the way that we necessarily think about it intuitively.

这有很多深层含义值得思考。我不知道。我甚至无法表达为什么我认为有这么多深层含义。但本，你觉得性别差异有那么大吗？比如，是的。

It has so many deep implications to think. I don't know. I don't I I can't even articulate why I think there's so many deep implications. But Ben, think there's that big of a gender imbalance? Like Yeah.

我是说，80比20的比例，这太夸张了。

I mean, 8020 is like, that's dramatic.

但我的意思是，之所以...确实存在性别差异。我再次声明，这些数字只是猜测。原因是，坦率地说，因为色情内容是给男性制作的，特别是当我们谈论拍摄的色情内容时，99%都是从男性视角出发，为男性设计的故事情节、体位等，专门迎合男性凝视。

But I mean, the the the reason that I mean, there definitely is a difference in genders. I again, I'm I'm guessing these numbers just Yeah. The reason is, I mean frankly, because porn's made for guys, especially when we're talking about sort of filmed porn, 99% is from the male point of view for guys with you know story lines and positions and things that are specifically for the male gaze.

给男性的？

For guys?

话虽如此，是为异性恋或同性恋男性制作的。

That being said, well for heterosexual or for gay guys.

天啊，我还以为你指的是数字四。不是的，因为在

Oh my god, I thought you meant like the number four. No, because in

某种程度上，那是四个男人。

some form, it was four men.

明白了。

Gotcha.

不是四而是四。对。

Not four but four. Yeah.

懂了。懂了。我明白了。

Gotcha. Gotcha. I gotcha.

说到这个，现在也出现了一些面向女性的优质色情内容，包括视觉色情，

On that note, there is some good porn emerging for women also visual porn, including

埃里卡。是的。

Erica. Yeah.

有位非常出色的导演叫埃丽卡·莱斯特。她执导了一整部女性向色情片系列，如果你是女性且想看色情片，这部作品会是个例外。

There's a really good director who's called Erica Leste. It's a female directed whole series of porn which is exceptional if you're a woman and you wanna look at some porn.

我听说过有针对女性的色情片。甚至可以说

I have heard that there's porn for women. Even the fact

你不得不承认这点，恰恰说明色情片的默认受众是男性。你说得对。

you have to say that makes it clear that the default for porn is men. You're right.

你说得对。不，我...我认为应该制作更多能让尽可能多人享受的色情内容。确实不该...我完全同意这点。

You're right. No. I well, I think there should be more porn that is enjoyable for as many people as possible. There should not. I definitely agree with that.

但你看，如果一个女性喜欢她认为更偏向男性的色情内容，她们也不该被羞辱。对吧？

But look, if you're a woman and you enjoy porn that you think is more for men, they shouldn't be shamed either. Right?

当然不该。而且女性确实会看男性向色情片，我认为性别差异的部分原因在于作品的预设受众。这并不是说色情片没有影响，显然它有。

Of course not. And women do watch porn for men, I think one of the reasons the gender difference is explained is because of the audience that it's made for. That's not to say that porn doesn't have implications. Of course it does.

我们来谈谈这些影响吧。

Let's talk about the implications.

研究发现，经常观看色情内容，尤其是暴力色情的人，确实会出现一定程度的脱敏现象，需要更强烈的刺激才能获得满足。但必须强调的是，这些研究样本非常特定，且几乎全部针对男性群体。实际上，我未曾见过任何研究有效探讨女性对性刺激的敏感度下调现象——即女性是否需要更激烈色情内容的问题。

So what research did find is that people who watch a lot of porn, especially violent porn, that that does seem to decent basically it does desensitize you a bit, and you need you do need more of it to get it off. And but again, these are very specific samples, and almost exclusively this research is done on men. So I actually don't think I came across a single study that effectively looked at the sort of down regulation or potential down regulation of sort of sex as a stimulus in women. So whether women need more and more intense porn.

这很有趣。所以这是个悬而未决的问题。

That's interesting. So that's an open question.

我认为是的。

I think so.

我们去申请研究经费吧。

Let's get a grant.

女性向色情研究。这是个绝妙的课题构想，非常出色的研究方向。不过我想核心结论还是——当然要关联到'邪恶'这个话题。

Porn for women. It's a great grand idea. Great great study idea. But I guess the take home message here yeah. Is, well, and linking it back into evil.

有些人认为观看色情内容本身就是邪恶的。坦白说，我认为确实可能如此。取决于内容来源、拍摄方式、参与者是否自愿——你可能无意中助长了性奴役等犯罪行为。要知道，这在互联网上是极难监管的，你很难追踪色情内容的真正来源。当然并非完全不可能。

So some people assume that watching porn is evil in and of itself. Okay. Which I think it can be, frankly. Depending on how it's sourced, depending on how it's filmed, depending whether people are out there voluntarily, you might be contributing to things like sexual slavery which is something that you know is very difficult to regulate on the internet and to know where sort of your porn is coming from. Not impossible.

这就需要你像对待其他消费一样做个有道德的消费者。你可以选择那些更可信的平台。

This is where you can do, be an ethical consumer just like in everything else. You can you know pick platforms that you know are more likely to.

等等。等等。所以你是可以接受将某些行为标记为邪恶，只是不接受把人标记为邪恶？是这样吗？

Wait. Wait. Hold So you're okay labeling certain behaviors as evil, just not people? Is that is that right?

不。行为也不会被标记为邪恶。

No. Behaviors also, would not label evil.

哦，好的。因为你刚才把性奴役称为邪恶。你说过...你说过，有些行为确实会导致邪恶，比如性...或者说确实会导致

Oh, okay. Because you just labeled sexual slavery evil. You said something you said, well, some things that do contribute to evil, such as sexual Or do contribute

伤害？对。没错。

to harm? Yeah. Yeah.

或伤害。好的。

Or harm. Okay.

明白了。所以性奴役对我来说确实是最难处理的话题之一，但我们理解了。

Cool. So yeah. So sexual sexual slavery is actually one of those topics that for me is the hardest to process, but that we Understood.

是的。理所当然。说实话，你书里50%的话题我都难以消化。但那某种程度上就是...

Under yeah. Rightfully so. I mean, there's some topics I don't know. 50% of the topics in your book, I had trouble stomaching, to be honest. But That was sort of the

重点，对吧？

point. Right?

这就是重点。这就是重点。是的。

It was the point. It was the point. Yeah.

那么总结一下关于色情内容的讨论，基本上，如果你沉迷于非常暴力的色情内容，可能会让你在现实生活中也稍微更倾向于追求那种体验，并且可能对你的大脑产生影响。但总体而言，除非你对这类内容过度沉迷

So to finish up the porn conversation, basically, if you get stuck into really violent porn, it might meet you slightly more likely to also want that offline, and it can have an impact on your brain. But overall, unless you're binging on this stuff

好的。

Okay.

你很可能不会有事，你在网上看的内容很可能不会与你在现实生活中的行为产生关联，你几乎肯定不会仅仅因为在线观看BDSM这类内容就变成性侵犯者。

Probably you're gonna be fine, and probably the stuff you watch on the Internet is not gonna correlate to stuff that you wanna do offline, and you're almost certainly not going to become a sexual predator just because you watch things like BDSM online.

哦，好吧，这完全是另一个话题了。

Oh, well, now that's that's a whole other topic.

对吧？BDSM。是的。

Right? BDSM. Yeah.

是的。我是说你，你在书中专门用了一章来写性癖好。你觉得这在我们社会里是被污名化的吗？

Yeah. I mean you I mean you write you have a whole chapter about kink. Do you think that's something that's stigmatized in our society?

哦，绝对是。当我们想到性癖好群体，想到那些对BDSM或其他类型癖好感兴趣的人时——这里特指成年人间自愿的癖好行为，区别于其他非自愿情况——这种印象就...

Oh, totally. I think that the pictures that we have when we think of the kink community, when we think of people who are interested in things like BDSM or other kinds of fetishes, now this is focusing on fetishes between consenting adults, which is separate from, you know, other things or And that's a

另一章的内容。

different chapter.

章节。但就像我说的，即使是同性行为也比异性行为更容易被情色化。比如在色情片中，两个女性的场景天生就会让人觉得不同，立刻带有癖好化的感觉。关于BDSM，很多人其实内心很挣扎。调查显示约50%的人承认至少参与过一项BDSM相关活动，无论是打屁股、用手铐，或是更具体的支配/服从行为——这也解释了《五十度灰》为何爆红，因为很多人都有这种幻想并实践过。于是问题就变成了：为什么我会对此感兴趣？

Chapter. That's a But I mean just like, I mean even homosexual activities are still eroticized beyond what heterosexual activities are. So even just being queer, even just being like two women in, let's go back to porn, in a porn film is inherently going to, it feels different, it feels fetishized immediately. But so with BDSM I think the question, there's lots, people I think wrestle with this themselves a lot. So they, a, given that huge amount, so about 50 of people on surveys say that they have engaged in at least one BDSM related activity, so it's spanking or handcuffing or sort of more specific stuff about sort of being dominant or submissive, and that's again, this is why I think 50 Shades of Grey took off, is because this is a fantasy that a lot of people have, and people do engage in this behaviour, and so the question then becomes for themselves I think, why am I interested in this?

所以我常开玩笑说：我能既是女权主义者又喜欢BDSM吗？

So again this is sort of the joke I sometimes make is you know can I be a feminist and interested in BDSM?

对，你在书里提出并讨论过这个问题。

Yeah. You raised and talked about that in the book, yeah.

没错。关键在于自我认知与价值观的碰撞。BDSM的吸引力不在于暴力倾向，而是人们渴望交出控制权，不用思考，这样更容易享受当下——或者说享受性活动本身。

I do, yeah, and the juxtaposition between sort of how you feel about yourself and sort of your values, and the whole point and the reason why BDSM is so attractive isn't because you're into violence. It's because people want to hand over control and they don't want to have to think, and that makes it easier to enjoy the moment if you will, or enjoy the sexual activity.

你提到的2016年这项关于普通人群异常性兴趣的研究显示，随着这些不同项目的出现，兴趣度在下降。现在我不会逐条询问你给这些项目打的分数，别担心。不过我要不要读几项让观众有个概念？好吧。

So there was this study that you talk about from 2016 on deviant sexual interest in the general population, and you find there is decreasing interest as these different, this list you had. Now I'm not gonna go through this list and ask you to rank your numbers. Don't worry about it. But should I just read some so the the audience has an idea? But okay.

首先第一项是，你正在偷窥毫无防备的陌生人脱衣。实际上超过半数的人会觉得这有点刺激。顺便说下，评分范围是从非常反感至极度兴奋。结果显示大多数人可能会觉得这很刺激。第二项是触摸橡胶、PVC或皮革等材质。

The well, first thing is, number one, you're watching an unsuspecting stranger while they undress. So that one, actually, more than half, right, would find that somewhat arousing. By the way, this is a score from very repulsive to ranging to very arousing. And so it turns out a lot of majority of people might find that arousing. Number two, you're touching a material like rubber, PVC, or leather.

所以人们觉得这很刺激？比例很高吗？

So people find that arousing? Like a high proportion of people?

嗯。

Mhmm.

好的。听着，我不做评判。你正在触摸或摩擦一个毫无防备的陌生人，这看起来不太对。

Okay. Cool. Hey, I look, I'm not judgmental. You're touching or rubbing a stranger who's not expecting it. That seems wrong.

不是现在。但你是说很多人...

Not now. But you're saying a lot of people

这是犯罪。

a crime.

你怎么看？这难道不是犯罪吗？

What do you say? Isn't that a crime?

事实上确实是犯罪。没错。没错。虽然变态行为是犯罪，但这正是其吸引人的核心概念。

It's in fact a crime. Yeah. Yeah. Troturism is is a crime, but it's the idea.

尽管如此，这个想法让很多人感到兴奋。这不就产生了很大的矛盾吗？我是说，我发现性领域非常迷人，之前还请贾斯汀·莱默上节目讨论过性幻想，大多数人实际上并不会实践他们的性幻想，甚至根本不想实践。关键在于，正因为这些事情是错误的，才形成了一种近乎悖论的感觉——一旦它们不再被视为错误，我们反而可能失去兴趣或不再觉得兴奋。

Still, the idea, it finds a lot of people find arousing. Well, that's doesn't that create a con quite a conflict? And, I mean, our people I find the sexual domain fascinating be and I had Justin Laymuer on the show talking about sexual fantasies and how most people don't actually enact their sexual fantasies or even would want to, is the idea that because these things are wrong, like, that's why it's a it's almost like a paradox of a sense. Like, the second it wasn't wrong anymore, you know, that we wouldn't wanna do it. Or find it as arou as arousing.

我也不确定，就是随便说说。

I don't know. I'm just putting it Yeah.

我认为这其中肯定有这方面的因素。我在书里也解释过，相关研究表明这似乎与打破规则有关。

Think there's definitely an element of that. Again, it's and so in the book I explained that. The research on this shows that it seems to be about rule breaking

明白了。

Okay.

并且要超越常规。我的意思是，最重要的社会规范之一就是‘不要随时随地与人发生关系’。所以关于界限和压抑的概念——我们时刻都在压抑自己。而在卧室里，这种压抑就不那么有效了。因此通过有意识地思考这些念头，反而能帮助我们突破那些阻碍，去体验平时被抑制的感受和经历。

And looking out of norms. And what I mean, one of the biggest social norms is you know, don't have sex with people across me at all times. And so the sort of idea of like boundaries and you know inhibition, we're constantly inhibiting ourselves. And in the bedroom that's just not as effective. So by intentionally thinking in thoughts, that can help us break out of that sort of inhibition that stops us from having these these feelings and experiences otherwise.

这些陈述似乎升级得很快。嗯。确实如此。老实说，逐渐进入了类似强奸的领域。好吧。

So these these statements seem to escalate quickly. Mhmm. They do. Into like like, rapey, if I'm being honest, territory. Now okay.

所以你正在被人鞭打，这听起来像是标准的BDSM，可能是双方自愿的。但紧接着就是强迫他人进行性行为。我想越少人觉得兴奋的点就在这里。然后你想象自己是异性，这也是越少人会觉得兴奋的。

So you're being spanked, being her whip by someone. That sounds like standard BDSM that can be very consensual. But the very next one is you're forcing someone into sexual activity. So I guess the less people find that is that's that's the point there. And then you are imagining yourself as someone of the opposite sex, so that's the less people find that arousing.

我就说到这里吧。我不会大声读出下一条。不过好吧。但这不正是你书里很好的预告吗？对于那些好奇下一条内容的人——因为我读出来可能会脸红到说不出话——就去买Julia这本精彩的书吧，在第133页。

I'm just gonna stop there. I'm not gonna read the next one out loud. But okay. People but isn't that a good teaser for your book, though? For people who are curious what the next one is that I would not read out loud, because I don't think I could say it without my face turning bright red, turn buy Julia's excellent book, and it's on page one thirty three.

这样行吗？公平吗，Julia？

Okay? Is that fair? Is that fair, Julia?

然后判断你是性癖好者还是普通人。是的。学会接受这些。

And then figure out if you're kinky or if you're just average. Yes. Learn to wear shit.

是的。是的。我是说，这个确实在升级。好吧。不错。

Yes. Yes. I mean, this gets it escalates. Okay. Cool.

所以这确实过渡到了另一个禁忌话题。听着，我想既然要和你对话，不如就把这些禁忌话题都提出来，否则和你聊天还有什么意义呢？对吧？我是说，毕竟这是关于你的书。

So this does segue into another taboo topic. Look. I figured, like, if I'm gonna talk to you, I might as well bring up all these topics and these taboo topics because or else what's the point of talking to you? Right? Like, I mean, he about your book.

你知道吗？是啊。我们可以聊聊。讨厌这些朋友。不是关于那些事。

You know? Yeah. Of We could talk. Hate this Friends. It's not about that stuff.

不管怎样，让我先洗个澡。

Anyway, let me just take a bath.

没有处理过程。

There's no processing.

我只是让我自己...我好像在出汗。

Me just let me just take I'm like sweating.

你能做到的。你能做到的。

You can do this. You can do this.

好的。

Okay.

禁忌话题很难谈论。正因如此才显得有趣。也正因如此才如此困难。我有时会说，最难启齿的事往往也是最重要的事。但这并不会让事情变得更容易。

Taboos are hard to talk about. That's why so interesting to do so. That's why it's so hard to do so. I mean it's the line I sometimes use is that you know the hardest things to talk about are often the most important as well. And it doesn't make it any less hard.

即便读到这些内容时——比如我书中的致谢部分——那种令人揪心的感觉丝毫不会减轻，反而会让人感到非常不适。但我认为直面这类禁忌话题非常必要，我们需要真正去审视它们，试着理解其中的含义。

Doesn't make it any less gut wrenching when you read, you know, credits in my book and go, oh, this makes me really uncomfortable. But it's still, I think it's really useful to face these sort of taboos, like right on and to look at, you know, how do we understand them.

这正是你书中的核心观点，你在结论部分再次明确阐述了这一点，我非常欣赏。你说直面这些阴暗面的意义也在于让我们有机会审视自己，就像照镜子一样。所以我真的很认同这个观点。

This is the point of your book, and you make that so clear, and you and in the conclusion, you restate that, and I really appreciate it. You said the the point of facing these sides head on is also to maybe take a a look at ourselves. Right? Like, kind of shine the mirror on. So I really appreciate that.

但即便听完你刚才说的这些，要让我直接过渡到讨论强奸幻想这个话题还是很困难。你明白我的意思吗？就算铺垫了这么多，突然说'来谈谈强奸幻想吧'还是感觉很突兀。

But even with everything you just said, it's still not easy for me to then segue into rape fantasies. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, even then, it's still like, okay. Let's talk about rape fantasies. Okay.

现在你提到有很高比例的女性存在强奸幻想，并且还将其分类了。能详细说说这项研究揭示了什么吗？

Now you're saying that there's a high proportion of women who have rape fantasies, and then you broke it down into different types. Do you mind talking a little bit about what that research shows?

是的，就像书中大部分研究一样，我主要是整合了他人研究中我认为最精华的部分，试图构建一个连贯的叙事来解释人类心理的某个切面。所以这不是我的原创研究，而是我搜集的成果。关于强奸幻想的研究——这个问题我思考了很久。其实这和色情作品有关联，回到之前的话题...

Yeah, so as most of the research in this book, I mean, I've sort of taken what I would consider sort of the best of other people's research and put it into a book to try and make a coherent narrative to try and explain the little piece of the human condition. So this isn't my research, it's research I've found. Research on rape fantasies, this is something that I've wondered about a lot. So this plays into porn, actually back to that. This plays into

这一切都是相互关联的。说不定我们会发现所有现象都有联系，最终能提出一个关于人性的新理论——不是关于邪恶，而是关于人性本身。

sort of the It's all connected. Maybe we're gonna, like, discover this is all connected. We're gonna have a new theory of evil or sorry, of not evil, of humanity.

关于人性。没错。比如我们在色情作品中看到的强奸场景，似乎很多人会对强迫性行为产生性兴奋，但这丝毫不减其令人不安的本质。特别耐人寻味的是，很多女性都有强奸幻想，但a)大多数其他女性并不知道这点，所以她们在这种幻想中感到极度孤独，对自己因此产生性兴奋感到极度困惑——毕竟脑海中浮现的是非自愿性行为的画面。

Of humanity. Yeah. But we see so we see, you know, rape scenarios in porn for example, and sort of this idea that it seems to turn a lot of people on to think about forced sex, but that doesn't make it any less disturbing. And so I think it's particularly curious that a lot of women seem to have rape fantasies, and a) most other women don't know that, and so people feel incredibly alone in this fantasy. They feel incredibly confused by the fact that they are turned on by this, again, picture in their heads of non consensual sex.

因此这可能是一种相当孤独的体验，而且似乎影响着或发生在很大比例的女性身上。于是问题来了：为什么？为什么女性会幻想被强暴？答案要回归到BDSM这类事物——几乎可以确定的是，当你观察这些幻想的具体内容，看是谁在强迫谁时，通常（显然是个辣妹因为这是我的幻想）会是个性感的人，一个能让你兴奋的对象。绝大多数美妙幻想都是这样的，它们最终会让人得以表达内心真实的激情。

And so it can be quite an isolating experience, and it seems to affect or seems to happen to a huge proportion of women. And so the question is why? Why would women ever fantasize about being raped? And the answer goes back into the sort of BDSM stuff, is almost certainly, so when you look at what those fantasies actually look like and who is forcing themselves on whom, it's usually, I mean obviously it's a hottie because it's my fantasy and so it's a hot person, it's someone who you know turns me on and who is, huge proportion of great fantasies are like that and they culminate and sort of you know finally they can express their true passion for

彼此。然后

each other. And

还存在另一种更阴暗的幻想类型——人们会幻想被绑架，或有人闯入家中实施那种行为。那是

then there's this sort of other piece of it which is the darker stuff where people fantasize about being abducted or people breaking into their houses and doing That's

黑暗的玩意。

dark shit.

确实是黑暗的玩意，但它完全存在于你的幻想中。这也正是为什么我们会有这些强暴幸存者——即便是曾遭受强暴的人，他们的幻想不幸更接近真实强暴的情形。这类幻想很少会是可爱浪漫的类型，所以重申一次，这仍是幻想。但这类幻想会变得更黑暗，人们依然会有这些幻想，很可能是因为它涉及控制权的让渡。这又回到了那种被支配、被迫进入愉悦状态的感觉。

It is dark shit, but it lives in your fantasy entirely. And again, this is where probably the reason that we have these, rape survivors, so even people who have been raped, and their fantasies unfortunately do align more with what actual rape looks like. They're less likely to be the cute romantic kind, or cuter, so again, still rape, a fantasy however. But there it gets darker and people still have them and it probably because it s handing over control. It s again this sort of being told what to do, being forced if you will into pleasure.

那么从比例来看，最常见的主题应该是你最开始提到的那种对吧？是不是存在某种普遍模式？我们隐约感觉到最黑暗的类型其实没有次黑暗的类型那么常见？你明白我的意思吗？

Now, so but in terms of the percentages of like, the theme, so the most likely one is the first one you were kind of saying though. Is that right? Is there, like, a general pattern, like, we're sussing here that, like, the darkest of the dark, like, is not as prominent as more of the lighter of the dark? Do you know what I mean? Like, don't I know

所以你是说最常见的幻想对象是禁忌之恋对象，而不是破门而入绑架你的陌生人？但确实存在黑暗向的，有些人会混合两种类型。我是说人们可能同时拥有这两种幻想。但这绝不意味着人们希望这些事真实发生在自己身上——这是理解这个问题的关键所在。

what So you're I mean the most common ones are involving people you're not supposed to be with rather than sort of someone again breaking into your house and kidnapping you. But it does get dark, and some people have a mixture. Mean, people have both. But this in no way means that people want this to happen to them. This is a really important piece of this.

真的只是

Really just

与我们观看的大量色情内容相关联。我们永远不想经历那些。这些幻想，我们也永远不想体验。它们专门在我们的幻想中被创造出来，我们希望它们就停留在那里。

linked with lots of porn that we watch. We don't ever want to experience that. With these fantasies, we also don't ever want to experience them. They're created specifically in our fantasies, that's where we want them to stay.

不过，某些女性难道不会想要与伴侣以自愿或非自愿的方式角色扮演吗？你明白我的意思吗？就是尝试实现那些幻想，但以她们知道最终安全的方式？

Well, don't certain women, though, want like, they can, like, role play with a lover that in a consensual or non consensual way? Do you know what I'm saying? Like, just, like, to try to live out those fantasies, but in a way they know they're ultimately safe?

没错。但区别在于幻想往往是非自愿的，而角色扮演当然是你自愿参与的。通常还需要明确可以撤销同意并停止情境，这样你才真正感到安全。这与实际强奸或这些幻想中的情形当然非常、非常不同。

Right. But then if and that's the difference of the the fantasy often is that the fantasy is nonconsensual, whereas, of course, you are consenting to role playing. Right. Usually, have to pay also, you know, removing consent and stopping the situation, and so you know that you're actually safe. And that that is, of course, very, very different from actual rape or even what happens in these fantasies.

当然。我们俩都同意这点。你们也都同意。好的。好的。

Of course. We both agreed on that. You were both agreeing with that. Okay. Okay.

我试图，就是，试图把点连起来。明白我的意思吗？因为你的书里有太多值得讨论的内容。你提出了人类...我本想说是邪恶的。我不打算说邪恶。

I'm trying to, like, just I'm trying to, like, connect dots. Do know I mean? And all because there's so much there's so much to talk about in your book. There's I mean, you bring up so many quarters of of human I was gonna say evil. I'm not gonna say evil.

顽皮这个词似乎也无法准确描述。就像我不知道该怎么形容。是伤害？人类的伤害。好吧。

Naughty not naughtiness doesn't feel like it captures it either, though. It's like I don't know what it is. It's Harm? Human harm. Okay.

我们就从伤害说起吧。对，从人类伤害说起。好，那我们现在转移话题。

Let's go with harm. Yeah. Let's go with human harm. Okay. So let's transfer now.

我们转到恋童癖这个话题。

Let's segue to pedophiles.

好。

K.

我之所以把这些点联系起来，是因为你似乎在说我们应该更多地区分——拥有某些想法、幻想或冲动，与成为恋童癖是不同的。我记得你在书中提到要将恋童癖者人性化，能详细说说你希望向观众传达的关键区别吗？

So the reason why I'm connecting these dots is because it seems like you're saying we should have more, like, to have the thoughts, you know, the fantasies or the urge is not the same thing as being a pedophile. I think you were trying to make a point. You made a point in your book about humanizing pedophiles. Can you tell me more about the key distinction there that you wanted to tell our audience?

最重要的一点是我们需要将所有人人性化。这包括每一个人。但人们常常会说'但是...'，然后把恋童癖排除在外，就像他们排除恐怖分子一样。这实在是...

So the biggest thing is that we need to humanize everybody. And so that includes everybody. And I think this is where people sometimes go, oh, but. And they will exclude pedophiles, so they exclude terrorists. That's Such a

说得好。确实一针见血，因为我刚才就犯了这种错误。这个观点非常到位。

good point. Such a good point because I kind of just did that. So no, it's a really good point. Okay.

关键是要确保我们不忘所有人都是人类。在此基础上采取相同的研究方法——探究人们为何会有特定行为，为何会产生某些幻想，这些幻想何时会对他人或自己造成伤害。我写书时本没计划专门用一章写恋童癖，但最终写了，因为公众对'邪恶'的认知与恋童癖存在惊人的关联。对多数人而言这两者几乎是同义词。比如英国数据显示，约半数民众希望恢复死刑仅针对儿童性犯罪者。

And so it's just making sure that we don't forget that, you know, we're all human beings. And so within that, also taking the same approach, so again looking at why people do certain things, why do we have certain fantasies, at what point do they become harmful to others or ourselves. And with, so the book I ended up, I didn't go in with the plan to write a whole chapter on pedophiles, but I did because there's such an incredible connection between the public s perception of evil and pedophiles. So it s almost synonymous in most people s minds. If you look at statistics in The UK for example, about half of the population wants the death penalty back just for child sex offenders.

所以我的意思是我们确实从这个特定人群身上实现了盈利。

So I mean we really do monetarize this particular group of people.

人们认为地狱里有个专门为恋童癖预留的位置。确实。

People think there's like a special place reserved in hell for pedophiles. Yeah.

是的，而且在监狱里，他们受到的待遇比其他大多数人都要糟糕。我是说，普遍认为这是最恶劣的一种癖好。在书中，我想探讨的内容，以及我将这一章与另一章关于性的章节分开的原因——就是我们刚讨论的那章，里面提到了各种癖好，甚至包括恋兽癖，也就是对动物有性兴趣的人，因为那是不同的

Yeah, and in prisons, they're treated worse than most other I mean, it's like across the board, it's considered sort of the worst kind of predilection. And in in the book, what I wanted to go through, and the reason I separated this chapter from the other sex chapter, which is the one we were just talking about where it talks about fetishes, it even talks about zoo files, so people who are sexually interested in animals, because that's a different

哦，我们会讲到那里的。你太超前了。我想我做得有点

Oh, we'll get there. You're forwarding. I think I did little

关于LGBT议题。我讨论了某种

about LGBT issues. I talk about sort

这些事让我越过了我的租赁世界。

of these things getting over my rental worlds.

是的。它在我的清单上。我的清单上也有它。

Yeah. It's on my list. It's on my list too.

这个也在我的清单上。好的。好的。

It's on my list too. Okay. Okay.

但这些事情某种程度上都是相互关联的，然后还有恋童癖，虽然相关但性质不同。我也不想犯那种经典错误——把关于恋童癖的内容和同性恋放在同一章节，因为不幸的是在很多人心里这两者已经被联系起来了。总之我想强调的是，坦白说我一直难以理解为什么人们认为恋童癖者就是极恶之人——谁会主动选择成为那样的人呢？我对那些主要性取向被社会公认为完全无辜且禁忌群体的人怀有深切同情。以那种倾向作为主要吸引力，这种生活该有多么艰难。

But but all of those things are sort of related to each other, and then there's sort of pedophilia which is related but different. And also didn't want make the classic mistake of putting into the same chapter on homosexuality anything about pedophilia because that is already unfortunately linked in people's minds, in some people's minds as well. Anyway, so what I wanted to make as a point, and which is something that I have frankly always found, I ve always struggled to understand why people find that someone who s a pedophile, that that is the ultimate evil, because who would choose to be that, frankly? Like I have so much sort of, I feel so bad for people whose primary sexual interest is in a group of people who all of society agrees is completely innocent and off limits. And to have that be your main attraction, I mean, that must be an incredibly difficult way to live.

我...我想就这点暂停讨论一下，我同意你的观点。我确实在生活中产生过类似想法，也和朋友们讨论过。比如当我进行积极心理学中的感恩练习时，有时我会做这样的感恩练习：感谢上帝没让我成为连环杀手。这听起来可能有点可笑，但我确实会这么想。

I I just just to pause on that point a second, I agree with you. I I agree that I have thought thoughts such as that in my life, and and I've had conversations with my friends, like, when I do, like, gratitude, being a positive psychology, we do gratitude exercises. Sometimes I'll just have, like like, gratitude exercises. Like, thank God, God didn't, like, make me a serial killer. Or like but and it sounds almost funny, but it's like, I really do think like that as well.

就像我会想，幸好自己没有某些冲动，否则生活将会...就像当一个不想杀人的连环杀手肯定很痛苦。

Like, I'm like, I'm so grateful I don't have certain urges because it would make without like, it must be hard being a serial killer who doesn't wanna kill.

或者...或许精神病患者也是。

Or or maybe a psychopath.

或是精神病患者。是的。是的。

Or a psychopath. Yeah. Yeah.

我不确定你是否能成为...

I'm not sure you could be

生来就是个连环杀手？确实如此。确实如此。我的意思不是...我想要获得连环杀手的称号，你得连续作案。不，说得好。

born a serial That's true. That's true. I don't mean I guess in order to earn the title serial killer, you have to have I serially see. No. Good point.

说得好。好吧。

Good point. Okay.

桥梁之美或你压抑的暴力倾向，愤怒管理问题。所以是的，我明白某种程度上不拥有这些的意义

The beauty of bridges or violence that you're suppressing, anger management issues. So yes, I I see the point of sort of not having these

这些...唉，我本该在那个观点上见好就收的。但你看，我们说的是我们意见一致。是的。

these Well, I should have quit while I was ahead with that point. But you see, we're saying we're on the same page. Yeah.

是的，是的。人们过于关注儿童性侵这种暴行。这也是我真正想在书中阐明的，恋童癖及相关癖好，比如恋青少年癖（ephebophilia）是指主要对青少年产生性兴趣，恋青春期前儿童癖则针对11到13岁之间的孩子，而恋童癖这个术语特指那些主要对未达青春期年龄的人产生兴趣的人，对吧？所以他们指的是未发育的儿童。

Yes, yes. People get so caught up in the atrocity that is child sex spending. And this is what I also really wanted to set out in the book, is that pedophilia and related philia, so ephebophilia for example is a primary sexual interest in teenagers, ephebophilia is a primary sexual interest in sort of in between, so 11 to 13, and then pedophiles, I mean the term is specifically used to refer to people who are interested predominantly in people under the age of puberty, right? So they're prepubescent.

那14到17岁的叫什么来着？

What's like, isn't there like a thing for 14 to 17?

恋青少年癖（Ephemophiles）。

Ephemophiles.

那么杰弗里·爱泼斯坦从技术上讲算是你刚才说的那种人吗？

So was Jeffrey Epstein technically a whatever you

就是你说的恋童癖？是的。对。

just said? Ephemophile? Yes. Yeah.

但新闻里所有人都称他为恋童癖。从技术上讲这说法准确吗？

But everyone's calling him a pedophile in the news. Is that technically technically incorrect?

严格来说并不准确，而且我认为我们称之为恋童癖的绝大多数人其实并不是。他们甚至不一定是恋童癖。这里存在更微妙的区别：仅仅因为有人性侵儿童或未达所在国法定年龄的人——各国法定年龄也不同——但这并不意味着我们主要对这类人群感兴趣。因此我们需要将性偏好或主要兴趣与行为区分开来。研究人员的调查显示，约2%的人在完全匿名情况下承认曾有过与未成年人发生性关系的幻想或兴趣。

That's technically incorrect, and I'd say the overwhelming majority of people we call pedophiles aren't. They are, they're not even necessarily a pedophile. So this is where it becomes, there's even more nuance, is that just because people sexually assault children or people under the age of consent in whatever country we live in, because that s also different in different countries, but it doesn t mean that we are predominantly interested in that category of people. And so this is where we need to divorce the idea of a sexual preference or a primary interest from behaviour. So a lot most pedophiles so in in polls that researchers have done, they found that about two percent of people when given complete anonymity confessed that they've had some fantasies or have would would be interested in sexual activity with minors.

考虑到青少年色情内容——或被标注为青少年色情的搜索排名总是位居前三，这个数据完全不让我感到意外。

Now this doesn't surprise me at all given the ranking of teenage porn or what is considered teenage porn or labeled teenage porn. It's always like in the top three searches.

是啊。我读你书时很震惊，你说英国有3%左右的人...我记得英国是3%。

Yeah. I was so surprised. I read your book. You said 3% in in England or something like that. I think it was 3% in England.

我当时就想：英国佬是怎么回事？

Was I like, what is up with those Brits?

是的。但德国也有类似的比例，就我们所知，没有理由认为其他地方会有所不同。

Yeah. But Germany had a similar percentage, and as far as we there's no reason to think it should be different anywhere else.

哦，这真有趣。你认为部分原因与色情内容中对青少年的性化有关。你觉得这有点，你知道的，

Oh, well, that's so interesting. You think some of it has to do with the sexualization of teens in pornography. You think that's a bit You know,

恰恰相反。我

the other way around. I

认为

think that

人们搜索青少年色情内容的事实表明，很多人已经对观看描绘非常年轻人群的材料产生了兴趣，虽然不一定是偏好。

the fact that people look for teenage porn suggests that a lot of people already have sort of, not a preference necessarily, but they are interested in viewing materials that depicts people who are very young.

如果我们请来一位进化心理学家，我一点都不会惊讶。你懂我意思吗？你知道他们会怎么说。他们会说，嗯，从进化角度讲得通。

Wouldn't be surprised if we had, like, an evolutionary psychologist on here. You know what I mean? You know what they would say. They'd be like, well, makes evolutionary sense.

没错，因为他们能生育孩子，所以...对。虽然这里面存在很多其他问题，但话说回来，我们能直观理解主要对四岁儿童感兴趣的人和主要对十四岁青少年感兴趣的人之间的区别。这看似明显且重要，但我们却经常忽视。而且你知道，这些不同主要性兴趣类别的诊断和预后完全不同，如果你是真正的恋童癖者，风险要比恋青少年癖者高得多。因为基本上如果你对青少年感兴趣，你或许能接受那些只是看起来年轻的成年人。

Yeah, because they can have babies and so go Yeah. For Yeah, which I mean, so many other issues with, but But that being said, I mean, we can intuitively understand the difference between someone who's primarily interested in four year olds and someone who's primarily interested in 14 year olds. Like that seems like an obvious and important distinction, and yet we routinely fail to make it. And you know the diagnosis and the prognosis for these different kinds of categories of primary sexual interests are totally different, and you're much higher risk if you're actually a pedophile than if you're a febophile. Because basically if you're interested in, or if you have a primary interest in teenagers, you could probably get away with adults who just look young.

因此，存在一些方式可以表达或实践这种倾向，而无需涉及未成年人领域。关键点在于，大多数对儿童有主要性兴趣的人从未将其付诸行动。可以说他们是在默默承受痛苦，据我们所知，他们实际上并未对未成年人造成性伤害。而有些实施性侵并剥削未成年人的人，本身对青少年并无主要兴趣——他们只是选择了容易得手的目标。

And so there are ways to manifest or ways to live that out without ever having to go into underage territory. So this is the final piece of this is just that most people who have a primary sexual interest in children never live that out. They basically suffer in silence if you will, and they don't actually, as far as we know, engage in any sexual harm towards minors. And some people who do engage in sexual activity and exploit minors have no primary interest in young people. They're just easy targets.

另一个关键点是，有时候你只是——用个不太恰当的说法——个坏人，或者是个做出极其恶劣性决策并实施犯罪的人，而你瞄准的是弱势群体，而弱势群体中年轻人比例往往过高。等等。

This is the other piece, is that sometimes you're just, you know, a bad person, if you will, or someone who's making very bad sexual decisions and engaging in crimes, and you're targeting vulnerable people, and vulnerable people are disproportionately going to be younger. Wait.

所以你认为世界上确实存在坏人？你知道我不会放过这个观点。你清楚我绝不会对此置之不理。

So there are so you think there are bad people then? You knew I was not going let that slide. You knew I wasn't going to let that slide.

我的意思是，以英国为例，曾对儿童之家的性侵事件进行过调查。澳大利亚也有类似情况，基本上有数十万儿童在儿童之家遭受虐待的记录。其中可能有恋童癖者，但也存在机会主义者——他们更容易剥削这些特定个体，因为对其拥有权力。我想确保我们真正讨论：什么是恋童癖？其真实含义是什么？实施性侵的是哪些人？谁是儿童性犯罪者？最终方向应是风险管理。因为妖魔化这些始终存在的社会群体（恋童癖者不会消失）无济于事。他们可能是我们的兄弟、父亲、母亲或姐妹，并非遥不可及的'他者'。

So so I mean, the so in in The UK, for example there has been some inquiries into child sexual abuse in children s homes. Australia has had a similar thing and there s basically, s these records of hundreds of thousands of children being abused in children s homes and with that there might be some people who are abusing these children who are pedophiles, but some of them are also just opportunists, and again they re more likely to be able to exploit these particular individuals because they have power over them. I just wanted to make sure that we have a real conversation about, you know, what is pedophilia, what does it actually mean, do people actually engage, who is a child sex offender, and ultimately where we should be going with it is you know, risk management, because dehumanising people who have always been there and will always be there, there will always be pedophiles in our societies. We can't just wish them away. And you know there are brothers and our dads and our moms and our sisters, they're not someone over somewhere.

他们是真实存在的人，我们需要为其提供不涉及犯罪的生活方式。但目前我们做得非常糟糕——如果算是在做的话。换句话说，我们需要治疗选择、援助热线等途径，让人们在产生不当念头时能寻求帮助。

They're real people, and we need to you know give them a way to live their life in a way that doesn't involve offending. And we re not doing that very well right now, if at all. Other words, we need treatment options and help lines and other ways in which basically where people seek help if they have inappropriate

性方面的...因为我在思考，我在深度思考，所以我的眼神...我习惯深入思考问题，特别是敏感话题。好的。所以你的论点类似于：如果我们对某些个体抱持更多（恕我直言）同情心并给予帮助...我们其实也在帮助世界，因为...用另一种说法就是，相比现有处理方式，存在更有效降低犯罪率的方法。比如通过非评判性地帮助他们寻找其他宣泄途径，最终能减少犯罪发生率并造福社会。这是你想表达的核心思想吗？

sexual Because if we, I m processing, I m processing, so that s why I m like, my eyes are like, I'm just I like to think deeply about things, especially sensitive topics. Okay. So, yeah, so your argument is like, if we have more, dare I say, compassion for some of these individuals, and we help them I mean, we're also helping the world because we're I mean, we're lowering there are better ways another way of putting that is there are better ways of lowering the incidences rate than how we currently treat them. Like, there are other things that we could do, and perhaps, you know, helping them nonjudgmentally find other outlets would ultimately reduce the incidence rates and help the world. Is this along the lines of the spirit of what you're saying?

是的。当前我们假装所爱所识之人不可能是恋童癖，认为恋童癖都是躲在暗处的邪恶怪物，会突然侵害我们的孩子——尽管统计显示，最可能性侵你孩子的人如果是男性亲属，比如兄弟。这才是可能性最高的情况，而非黑暗角落的陌生人。所以我认为最关键的是：同情心固然重要，但更重要的是成年人现在正因为不敢讨论这些重要议题，反而将儿童置于风险之中。

Yeah. I think right now we pretend that the people we love and know can't be pedophiles, that pedophiles are evil monsters hiding away somewhere in a basement, and that they come and predate on our children even though most, I mean statistically the most likely person to sexually assault your child is if you have a brother, a male relative. That is hands down the most likely person to sexually assault your child. Like not strangers in dark corners. And so I think that the biggest thing there is yeah, compassion sure, but also just I think right now we as adults are putting children at risk because we're too scared to talk about these really important issues.

这远远不够。我们正在失败，并将大量民众置于风险之中，因为事后惩罚根本无济于事。我们需要防患于未然。

And that's just not good enough. And we're failing and putting a huge amount of people at risk because punishing people after the fact, that's not gonna cut it. We need to prevent it.

你怀有如此深厚的同理心，近乎普世的悲悯。这种特质从何而来？比如你小学成长时期，是否参加过志愿组织？童年时的你是怎样的？

You have so much compassion, like universal compassion. Where did you get that from? You like, when you were growing up in like elementary school or whatever, did you like volunteer for organizations? Like what were you like as a kid?

这位人权活动家，

The human rights activist,

始终如一。我是说，你这种特质是与生俱来的——这是你身上极美好的品格特征。当然我这么说完全是褒义。正如你在书中提到的，很多人一接触就会产生'恶心反应'。他们甚至不愿讨论这类话题，更遑论对事物产生共情。

to be the same. I mean, you had you're you're bursting with this it's it's a wonderful character trait of yours. I'm saying this in a very positive way, of course. You meet a lot of people who have the ew factor, as you talk about in the book, immediately. They won't even, like, talk about this kind of stuff, or even entertain that I'll have any compassion for something.

你却超越了这种本能。这是后天培养的过程吗？这个问题是否恰当？或者说这是你与生俱来的特质？

You somehow overrode that. Was that a process? Is that a fair question? Like, it a process? Is this thing you always have had?

我不知道。

I don't know.

你所描述的正是我称之为'共情羞辱'或'好奇羞辱'的现象。比如仅仅是思考'为何有人会做这些坏事'这个念头，就会让你在家庭聚餐时陷入窘境——就像提出'我在想恋童癖是如何形成的'，所有人都会立刻沉默并质问你：'你问这个干什么？莫非你自己就是？'这种羞辱会立刻扼杀你的探索欲。

So what you're expressing is what I call empathy shaming, or curiosity shaming even. So like even just the idea that you're thinking about why someone might be doing these bad things also implicates you as like sort of the of situation at the family dinner table bringing up, know, I wonder why people become pedophiles. Everyone sort of shuts down and goes, what are you seeing? You know, they're, are you a pedophile? And immediately you're shamed out of it.

你甚至不被允许去思考，为什么一个人最终会变成他们现在的样子。

You're not even allowed to pursue the sort of thought of, you know, why someone might end up the way that they do.

我希望你不要认为我是在用同理心羞辱你。

I hope you don't think I'm empathy shaming you at all.

不不不，

No no no,

我没有，我是相反的，我是相反的，是的。但是

that's I'm not, I'm the opposite, I'm the opposite, yeah. But

我认为我们需要非常小心不要这样做，而且我觉得很多人都在这样做，我们都对自己羞辱的对象感到正义。这也是为什么我认为有时候作为左派、自由派和学术界人士，会有这种观念：哦不不，我们不会因为人们想法不同而羞辱他们，比如我们不会羞辱罪犯，但我们选择羞辱谁呢？可能是共和党人，我们羞辱那些在政治上与我们想法不同的人，那些种族主义者。这就是另一回事了，比如将种族主义者非人化。这仍然是在将人非人化，我们必须非常小心不要这样做。至于我这种想法从何而来，有时候我觉得自己像个造访地球的外星人，因为我只是...

I think we need to be very careful not to do that, and I think a lot of people do that, we all feel righteous in who we shame people about, so this is also where I think sometimes sort of being left and being sort of liberal and academic, there's this idea of you know, oh no no, we don't shame people for thinking you know different things or we don't shame offenders for example, but who do we choose to shame instead? Republicans potentially, we shame, you know, it's okay to ridicule people who think differently than us in political ways, who are racist. Like this is the other thing, like to dehumanize racists. Like that's, it's still dehumanizing people, we need to be very careful not to do that. In terms of where I got it from, mean I sometimes I feel like I'm an alien visiting the planet, because I do just sort of

我也是。

Me too.

俯视并试图理解，我不知道，对人们为何这样思考和行事产生兴趣，而我并没有那种...我不知道。

Look down and wanna understand, I don't know, take an interest in why people think and do the things they do, and I don't have the sort of, I don't know.

不不，我知道，我知道。我们俩都有一种，我们共享一种如饥似渴的好奇心。你其实说过一个很酷的词，比如‘好奇心羞辱’之类的，我特别有共鸣。我之所以做这个播客，就是因为我对一切都充满好奇，我不想只局限于某个话题。

No, no, I know, I know. Like, we both have a, we share a ravenous curiosity. You actually had a cool phrase, you said something like curiosity shaming as well was another thing, and I really resonated with that. I really resonated with that because I, this is why I do this podcast is I am so curious about everything, and I don't wanna, like, I can only talk about this topic or that. Like, I'm no.

我想知道。你懂吗？其实无所谓对吧？所以我理解。

I wanna know. You know? It doesn't you know? So no. I I get it.

我确实理解。只是这种情况很少见。坦白说，很少有人能像你说的那样让人产生‘哇哦’的感觉。既然提到‘哇哦因素’，我们就来聊聊兽交吧。对。

I do get it. It's just it's rare. It's quite quite frankly, it's rare because people have that oh factor as you talk about. So speaking of the oh factor, let's talk about bestiality. Yeah.

为什么不呢？我要问一个问题，当我问出口时，我一半的听众可能会觉得‘恶心’。但我还是要问：研究显示为什么有些动物比其他动物更漂亮？我们在你的书里讨论过这个话题。

Why not? So I'm gonna ask a question that's gonna like, as soon as I ask this question, people half of my audience is gonna be like, ew. So but I'm gonna just do it. What do we know what the research shows on why some animals are prettier than others? Because we talk about that in your book.

是什么让动物变得漂亮？

What makes an animal pretty?

我不知道

I don't

我不知道。

I don't know.

究竟是什么让动物显得性感呢？对吧？是的。所以我想说，这确实是个问题。看看这个

What makes the animal sexy even. Right? Yeah. So I mean, it is it is a question. So looking at the

研究显示，人们现在正在撤回他们的广告投放。他们就这么做了，继续说吧。

research people are pulling their advertising right now. They're so go ahead.

和我混在一起总是有风险的。代言机会没了。

It's always a risk when you hang out with me. Endorsement's gone.

动物权益组织。不，我们不再支持这个播客了。

The animal rights people. No. We're no longer supporting this podcast.

嗯，从某种意义上说，这些人可能自认为是动物权益保护者。是的。因为他们爱动物，浪漫地爱着动物，甚至视它们为伴侣。所以他们当然不希望动物受到伤害，至少在他们看来是这样。关于兽交或恋兽癖的研究，即对动物产生主要性兴趣的现象，尚未被广泛研究，但已有一些相关研究。至于如何进入这类圈子，说实话我很震惊恋兽癖社区竟然允许研究人员进入，但他们确实这么做了。

Well, mean, in some ways, these people would identify probably as animal rights people Yeah. Because they love love animals, romantically love animals, to the point that they consider them their partners. So they certainly don't want harm to come to them, at least in their minds. Now research on bestiality or zoophilia, so having a primary sexual interest in animals, has not been researched extensively, but there has been a bit of research on it. Now, in terms of how you get into circles like this, shocked frankly that a zoophile community has let researchers in, but they have.

我很震惊。

I'm shocked.

而且，我的意思是，你甚至可以在网上、论坛上找到对这些事感兴趣的人，当然那里有社区，但真正现身参与。研究人员所做的就是他们实际上出现在了这个谷仓里。

And it's, I mean, even, I mean, you can find these individuals who are interested in this kind of thing, of course, online, on message boards, there's communities, but to actually show up. So this is what researchers did is they actually showed up in this barn, basically.

它一直都是个谷仓。永远都是个谷仓。好吧，

How It's always was a barn. It's always a barn. Well,

必须去动物所在的地方。他们发现人们给出的动物性感理由与人类如出一辙，会说诸如'是她的眼睛'、'她看我的方式'，或者'是他的个性如此吸引人'。这似乎表明我们爱上人类的理由与极少数人爱上动物的理由存在巨大重叠。动物爱好者通常声称，不同于人类，动物至少能给予无条件的爱，或没有人类那些复杂问题。当然，它们也无法给予同意——这是个关键问题。

gotta go where the animals are. And so what they found was that basically people gave the same reasons as to why animals are sexy as why humans are and they'll say things like it was her eyes, or the way she looked at me, or it was you know, the way that he, his personality is what's so attractive. And this is what, there does seem to be this massive overlap between the reasons we fall in love with humans, and the reasons a very small minority, but some people say that they fall in love with animals. And what zoophiles generally say is that unlike humans, animals, this sort of this feeling at least of unconditional love, or this feeling that they don't have some of the complications that come along with humans. Now, they also don't have the ability to give consent, which is an important problem.

这难道不重要吗？我读到你的内容时就在想这个问题

Isn't that important? I was thinking Yeah, about that when I read your

而且世界上确实存在过——我确信至今仍有——动物妓院。

and there are there have been, and there still are, I'm sure in the world, animal brothels.

别开玩笑了。

Get out of here.

是的。这话题我没写进书里，因为学术界对此完全没有研究。

Yeah. Is something I don't think I got into in the book because there's actually no academic research on it.

你是认真的吗？就像个农家院那样？好吧，

Are you serious? Like a barnyard of this is that's well,

他是认真的。但我是说，我有朋友从墨西哥回来，他们会谈论那些驴子表演。如果那听起来像恋兽癖，那我也不知道。或者肯定是兽交，那最好知道一下。

it's He's serious. But I mean, I've had friends come back from Mexico, and they'll talk about the donkey shows. I mean, if that sounds uphilia, then I don't know. Or certainly, basiality, then good to know.

我不知道等待的是什么。所以如果我嘲笑那个，我是不是真的成了坏人？我是在羞辱别人的喜好吗？我是不是该重新审视自己的道德观？你明白我的意思吗？

I don't know what it's being wait. So if I, like, make fun of that, am I am I actually am I, like, being a bad person? Am I shaming someone's preference? Like, should should I re examine my sense of morality that I have? Is that do you know what

我是说，对啊。

I mean? Like Yeah.

你是这个意思吗？

Is that what you're saying?

你就是这样的，Shane。这有点像拿监狱里捡肥皂开玩笑，本质上是在拿监狱强奸开玩笑。

You you are, Shane. I mean, it's kind of like making jokes about dropping the soap in prisons, which is basically making jokes about people getting raped in prisons.

这种事我不会做。也不会开这种玩笑。不过动物妓院这个概念本身就像喜剧素材。说实话，如果你是喜剧演员，这个题材对喜剧演员来说不算禁区。

Which I would not do. Would not make a joke about that. The idea of a animal brothel, it's like comedy too though. Like if you were a comedian, that would not be off limits for the comedian, to be honest. Like

问题是，我觉得动物妓院之所以迷人，是因为欧洲直到最近还有几家。它们几年前才被关闭。它们能存在的理由，不被视为动物虐待的理由，这涉及非常有趣的伦理和法律问题

And and the question is, and the and the reason I find animal brothels fascinating is so there were some in Europe until recently. They got closed down only a couple years ago. And the reason they could exist, the reason that they weren't considered animal abuse, which is a fascinating ethical and legal

天哪，他们被突击检查了吗？

Oh my problem gosh, at they got raided?

所以他们的关门不是因为缺乏顾客，而是因为其他问题。但事情是这样的，他们之所以能存在，主要是因为他们构建的方式——至少据称是这样——是让动物主动骑乘你。这样设计的理念是，你并没有强奸动物，因为是动物选择与你发生性行为。这样讲得通吗？就是你展示自己，然后由动物决定是否参与。

So it wasn't because of a lack of clientele that they closed down, it was because of other issues. But what happened, the reason they could exist at all is because the way that they structured it mostly, allegedly at least, was that the animals would mount you. So the idea was that you're not raping the animal because the animal is the one who's choosing to engage in sexual activity with you. Does that make sense? So you present, and then the animal decides whether or not to engage.

这就是他们绕过同意和动物虐待概念的方式。虽然在法律层面上关于同意的合法性仍然非常可疑，但我觉得这种试图规避的方式很有意思。

And so that was the way that they got around this idea of consent and animal abuse. Super sketchy still in terms of So legality of consent, I thought it was an interesting way of trying to get around that.

非常有趣。我得说我正感受到你书中提到的‘恶心因子’。我想坦诚这一点，我现在感觉有点反胃。

It's very interesting. I have to say I'm feeling a little bit of the oh factor that you talked about in your book. I wanted to be transparent about that. I'm feeling a little nauseous.

你脸色有点苍白。之前看你又热又烦躁，现在却变得苍白。哇，这对你来说真是个艰难的话题。

You have been a bit pale. I feel like you were getting hot and flustered before, now you're getting pale. Wow. Tough conversation for you.

哇，你觉得通过反复研究和讨论这些内容，你能对某些事情变得麻木吗？你觉得这可能吗？比如讨论谋杀犯，还有书里其他那些话题。你知道的，有些话题确实比较敏感。

Wow. Now do you think you can be do talk can you study this and talk about it so much that you you become desensitized to some of this stuff? Do you do you think that's possible? Like like like talking about, like, murderers and, you know, the other topics in the book. You know, there's certainly there are certain topics.

比如在读你的书时，我感觉关于性奴役的那一章似乎触动了你——如果我可以诚实地说，那章的语气有所不同，至少这是我的阅读感受。书中其他部分都保持着一种不评判的语调，比如‘和乌龟发生关系有什么邪恶的？’但读到那一章时，我几乎能感觉到你笔调中划出了一条界线。我只是好奇，作为人类个体，你是否觉得某些话题...我不知道怎么说。

Like, in reading your book, I felt as though the chapter on sex slavery hit you, like, there was a different tone to that chapter, if I may be honest, in just my perception of the book. It's like the rest of it, the book sort of had a very nonjudgmental tone, like a very, like, you know, what's so evil about having sex with a turtle? But then but then, you know, it might be hard with the shell, but but they're animals too just like us. But then I just got to that chapter, and it was like I almost felt like there was a line in the tone of your writing. And I'm just wondering, like, just speaking you as a human, like, do you feel like some topics I don't know.

我真的不知道自己在说什么。真的不知道。我只是在读那一章时有个观察，感觉对贩卖人口的人有更多批判。就像，连你都会觉得‘什么鬼’。如果我对人兽交说‘什么鬼’，你可能会说‘斯科特，别羞辱那些喜欢驴子的人’。

I don't really know what I'm saying. I don't really know. I just am saying an observation of when I read when I read that chapter, there was it felt like there was a lot there was a little more judgment about people who sell people into slavery. Like like, even you're like, WTF. Now, like, I felt like if I said WTF about the donkey sex, like, you'd be like, Scott, don't shame don't shame the the donkey the donkey lovers.

但但但似乎有理由对这样贩卖人口的人说‘什么鬼’。我觉得‘什么鬼’说得没错。不过，你对我刚才说的这些有什么看法？因为我自己都不太明白，但想听听你的想法。

But but but it almost feels warranted to say WTF about people who sell people in this way. Like, I'm WTF about rightly so. I feel like it's WTF. But anyway, what do you think about everything I just said? Because I don't really even know what I'm saying, but I just wanted to get your thoughts.

我认为，关于性奴役和奴役的那部分确实是我最难写的部分。光是读那些统计数据就够震惊了，世界上仍有大量奴役现象存在。

I think that, I mean definitely the section on sexual slavery and slavery in general was one of the hardest for me to write. Like even reading the statistics, I mean, is a shocking amount of slavery still happening in the world.

我也很震惊，确实。

I was shocked, yeah.

我的意思是，这些数字确实令人震惊，性奴役的数量之多，坦白说这一切都糟糕透顶。这种现象的存在及其背后的原因，正是我同理心开始动摇的地方——人们从事贩卖人口这类勾当完全是被利益驱使，在我看来这在某种程度上更难以原谅。明明有其他谋生方式，虽然艰难，正如我在书中讨论的所有这些恶劣行为都有其他选择，但建立在对庞大群体造成毁灭性影响的制度之上，这种层层叠加的自私程度，不幸的是正被我们的经济结构所助长。它们被资本主义等价值观所滋养。所以这些人并非凭空出现突然就想贩卖奴隶。

I mean it is, the numbers are astonishing, amounts of sexual slavery, it s all just like awful, frankly. And so the fact that this happens, and the reasons, and I think this is where my empathy does drift, is that the reasons why people do things like sell people into slavery are entirely profit paced, and that s what I think in some ways has less of an excuse frankly. Like there are other ways to make, it's hard, like if you, and of course there's options for all of these kinds of bad behaviours I talk about in the book, but having systems that also then over huge groups of people have this amount of devastating impact, that's sort of levels of selfishness compounded that are unfortunately facilitated by the way that our economies are structured. They're facilitated by the values that were given by you know, things like capitalism. And so it's not that people emerge out of nowhere and suddenly you know, wanna sell slaves.

他们来自某个社会，拥有自己的思想，其中有些人可能是心理变态者，有些人则不是。我的意思是，他们并非与世隔绝，也不能说100%该受谴责，但相比我在书中提到的其他行为，他们似乎确实应该承担更多罪责。

They come out of a society and they're, you know, they have their brains, and some of them might be psychopaths, some of them aren't, but I mean it's, so they're not isolation, they're not, if you will, 100% to blame, but it does feel like they're more to blame perhaps than for some other kinds of activities I talk about in book.

确实。而且很难得你能以朱莉娅·肖博士独有的方式阐明这一点。我就在想，书中还有其他例子你肯定提到了，比如我们的伪善。那一章里我觉得缺少了这点。所以几乎可以说是，不。

Yeah. And it's also harder to thank you for making that point in such a in the way that only doctor Julia Shaw could make it. I'm just thinking, like, there are other examples in the book where you certainly bring up, like, the hypocrisies of us. In that chapter, I think that that was missing. So it's almost like, no.

这些人简直是邪恶的。不。但你没有...我知道我知道你没那么说，但我的意思是，至少在其它章节里，比如在那个兽交的章节里，你提出了一个很好的观点。听着。你真的让我开始思考，我是否应该成为素食主义者。

These people are legit evil. No. But you didn't I know I know you didn't say that, but I'm saying, like, at least, like, in other chapters, for instance, like, in the in the in the bestiality one, you made a great point. Look. You've got me think actually, you've really got me thinking about whether or not I wanna be a vegetarian.

这是从兽交那章来的。什么

That's from the bestiality. What

你说什么？你刚才说什么？

did you say? What did you say?

兽交那章，也许你想成为素食主义者？

The bestiality chapter, maybe if you wanna be a vegetarian?

对。对。对。对。不。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No.