质性开放麦：反种族主义的质性健康研究——Bee Damara谈理论

欢迎来到定性应用健康研究中心关于反种族主义定性研究的新系列。在本系列中，您将与我——萨赫尔·贾努萨里一起探讨定性研究是否、如何以及在多大程度上能促进反种族主义和非殖民化。今天我们从基础开始，讨论后殖民批判种族理论如何帮助我们解读定性数据，并将定性健康项目导向反种族主义目标。今天我们邀请到了一位非凡的嘉宾，您能做个自我介绍吗？

Welcome to the Qualitative Applied Health Research Centre's new series on anti racist qualitative research. In this series, you'll join me, Sahel Janusari, to look at whether, how, and to what extent qualitative research can contribute towards anti racism and decolonisation. Today, we're starting at the beginning of things, talking about how theory, how post colonial critical race theory can help us interpret qualitative data and shape our qualitative health projects to anti racist aims. We've got with us an incredible guest today. Would you like to introduce yourself?

大家好，我是碧·达玛拉，伦敦国王学院现代奴隶制核心成果集项目的研究员。

Hi my name is Bea Damara. I'm a researcher at King's College London on the Modern Slavery Core Outcomes Set.

我们正在开展现代奴隶制核心成果集项目。您能简单介绍一下这个项目以及核心成果集的概念吗？

We are working on the Modern Slavery Core Outcomes Set project. Can you tell us a bit about what that is and what a core outcome set means?

现代奴隶制核心成果集旨在与人口贩卖幸存者及反贩卖领域工作者对话，了解他们脱离人口贩卖后的期望成果。

So the modern slavery core outcome set is about speaking to survivors of human trafficking and people who work in the anti trafficking field about what their desired outcomes are after exiting human trafficking.

太棒了，谢谢B。请问您在项目中担任什么角色？

Amazing, thanks, B. And what's your role in the project?

我是一名具有亲身经历的研究员。工作内容包括为学术研究者提供咨询、访谈贩卖幸存者、进行数据分析和转录，并主持研究顾问委员会。

I'm a researcher with lived experience. So part of that is giving consultancy to academic researchers. I've also interviewed trafficking survivors. I've done data analysis and transcription and I've been facilitating a research advisory board.

好的谢谢。我知道您正在申请博士学位，研究南非幸存活动家对人口贩卖与殖民主义关系的观点。那么进入理论探讨前，想请您谈谈——基于您的这个构想，您采用了哪些后殖民理论家？以及最初为何选择这些理论家？

Cool, thank you. And I know you are also applying for a PhD looking at survivor activist perspectives on the relationship between human trafficking and colonialism in South Africa. So to get stuck into the theory, it'd be great to know a bit about, with this idea of yours, what sort of postcolonial theorists you're using and why you use theorists in the first place.

好的，我将谈谈关于古巴人口贩卖或现代奴隶制的不同观点，这取决于你的立场。称呼方式可能有所不同。一方面，诺丁汉大学的凯文·贝尔斯及其权利实验室认为——凯文·贝尔斯是现代奴隶制理论的主要提出者之一，他真正揭露了人口贩卖和现代奴隶制问题。他的观点是：现代奴隶制是大西洋奴隶贸易的延续，主要区别在于不再以种族为核心，人们是因经济状况而非肤色被剥削。

Okay, so I will talk about some of the different perspectives on Cuban trafficking or modern slavery, depending on what your position is. It can vary what you call it. So on the one hand, you have Kevin Bales and the rights lab at the University of Nottingham who they Kevin Bales is one of the primary modern slavery theorists who's really kind of brought out into the open the issue of human trafficking and modern slavery. And his perspective is that modern slavery is a continuation of transatlantic slavery. The main difference being that it's not focused on race, so people are exploited based on economic circumstances rather than because of the color of their skin.

另一方面，劳拉·布雷斯和朱莉娅·奥康奈尔·戴维森对人口贩卖持更批判的视角，认为其与大西洋奴隶贸易存在本质差异。他们举例指出：当今被贩卖者往往存在迁移意愿（当然并非人人如此——我始终认为不宜对所有幸存者做笼统论断）。但他们的核心论点是：历史奴隶贸易中的被奴役者并无迁移意愿，而现代被贩卖者则不同。

And then on kind of the other side of things, you have Laura Brace and Julia O'Connell Davidson who have a bit of more of a critical perspective on human trafficking, which is that it's actually very different to the Transatlantic slave trade. One of the examples that's used is that people who are trafficked today, oftentimes they want to move. That might not be the case for everyone. And I always say I think it's better not to kind of make a statement that's like a sweeping statement that applies to all survivors because everyone's case is different. But they argue that people want to move and in the past people subjected to slavery and the Transatlantic slave trade didn't want to move.

还存在诸多其他差异：传统奴隶制具有代际终身性（现代奴隶制偶尔如此，但多为债务奴役等有限期限形式）。朱迪·奥康奈尔·戴维森和劳拉·布雷斯还聚焦人口贩卖的殖民维度——全球不平等作为殖民主义的遗产，才是奴隶制的真正延续。被贩卖者与当年逃亡奴隶的处境共性，反而多于与历史奴隶本身的相似性。对朱迪而言，奴隶制的'后世'体现在全球南方民众的贫困陷阱状态，及其行动自由所受的法律限制——这恰是大西洋奴隶制的核心特征。

There are also many other differences like it would be lifelong generational and that's sometimes again sometimes the case with modern slavery but usually not often it's a set period like say if you're in debt bondage you stay in this situation until they say that the money is paid off and then you might be allowed to leave. There are many differences that have been pointed out between the two. And the other kind of point of disagreement is that whether it's based on race or not, and Julia O'Connor Davidson and Laura Brace both look into the colonial aspect of human trafficking. So the way it's described by Judah O'Connell Davidson is that actually global inequalities that we see as a result of colonialism are where the afterlife of slavery lies and people who are trafficked, they actually have more in common with people who were exploited when they were trying to flee slavery than people in slavery themselves. So to Judy O'Connor Davidson like the real afterlife of slavery is in the kind of trapped impoverished conditions that people live in in the global South and then the kind of legal controls on their movement because that obviously was a major issue in transatlantic slavery as well.

人们需要证件才能流动，行动被完全控制。研究者夏尔马称之为'全球种族隔离'。作为经历过南非种族隔离的人，我深表认同：全球南北之间存在明确的阶层与贫困隔离。

People People needed documents to move around. The movement was completely controlled. And you see that in, I mean, there's a researcher called Sharma and she describes it as a global apartheid. And as a South African who's experienced apartheid conditions, that's something I can agree with. Like there's a definite kind of segregation of people and poverty between the global North and the global South.

对朱莉娅和劳拉而言，这才是问题本质。而权利实验室和凯文·贝尔斯更侧重个体层面：追责贩运者、营救受害者。这导致政府常以研究为借口加强移民管控——媒体常渲染'需与法国合作拦截偷渡船，打击邪恶贩运者'，实则以此为拒斥移民的托辞。这种边界强化反而加剧了问题。

And to Julia O'Connor Davidson and Laura Brace, that's where the issue truly lies. Whereas when the Rights Lab and Kevin Bales, a lot of their focus tends to be more individualistic. So criminalising traffickers, rescuing victims. And the implications of that is that the government ends up kind of using the research as an excuse to put on more migration controls. You often see in the media, Oh, we need France's cooperation to stop boats coming across, to stop these evil traffickers from exploiting people, And then you see that getting used as an excuse to stop letting people into the country when really that's kind of exacerbating the problem because you're creating more of a boundary.

这种措施固化了南北鸿沟。真正的解决方案应是全球资源再分配（如赔偿）而非个案打击。劳拉和朱莉娅还指出：人口贩卖的界定本身模糊。例如所谓'合法移民'——

It's kind of solidifying this divide between the North and the South. And really a better solution would be to, instead of focusing on individual crimes and individual cases, to even out the situation globally. Reparations, for example, would go a long way towards really fixing the problem. Another way you can look at it is Laura Brace and Julia O'Connor Davidson, they kind of argue that it's not a very clear boundary about what can be defined as trafficking. So for example, like legal migrants, so called legal migrants.

持工作签证入境的家政工等群体虽受雇主束缚且处境相似，却不被归类为现代奴隶制。性工作领域亦然：被人胁迫属人口贩卖，因生存压力或毒瘾被迫从事则不属此列——尽管压迫源不同，实质差异何在？

Sometimes they come into the country and they can be on like an employment visa, say domestic workers, for example, and they're kind of bound to their employer in that way. And a lot of the same conditions apply, but it's not classed as modern slavery or trafficking, even though a lot of the same conditions apply. And you could say the same with sex work as well, because if you're being forced into sex work by a person, they class that as human trafficking. If you're being forced into sex work because of your life situation, like not being able to eat or because you have a drug addiction, for example, that's not classed as human trafficking. Whereas the only difference really is the source of what's forcing someone is different.

这类争论围绕着界限究竟在哪里，以及是否能够被明确定义。就我个人而言，我处于辩论的两个极端之间，更倾向于劳拉·布雷斯和朱莉娅·奥康奈尔·戴维森的观点，因为我认为这更多是一个结构性问题而非个体问题。

So it is this kind of arguments about where the boundaries lie and if it can even be defined at all. And me personally, I'm kind of between the two extremes of the debate, closer to the Laura Brace side and Julia O'Connell Davidson side because I do think that it's a structural issue more than an individual issue.

太棒了，非常感谢。这是对两种可能存在冲突的理论立场非常精彩的总结。你提到你正在进行或希望进行一项结合照片发声法的内部人种志研究。我注意到你刚才说你可能更倾向于劳拉·布雷斯和朱莉娅·奥康奈尔的理论光谱范围。那么这将如何影响你的内部人种志研究呢？

Brilliant, thank you so much. That was a beautiful summary of the two sort of theoretical positions that may be in tension with each other. So you've told me that you are doing a insider or you're hoping to do an insider ethnography with photo voice. I kind of wanted to see so you've just said, you know, you're probably more towards the Laura Brace, Julia O'Connell section of spectrum of section of the spectrum, I suppose. So what is it how is that gonna affect your insider ethnography?

如果你带着这种理论观点，这将如何使人种志和照片发声法与没有这种观点时有所不同？

You know, if you have this theory in mind, how is that gonna make the ethnography and the photovoice different too if you didn't?

我想这会改变我的关注重点。我选择照片发声法的原因是想记录人们的生活状况，这也是我对南非项目感兴趣的原因——不仅因为我来自那里，还因为种族隔离的历史让我对此特别关注。但更重要的是与当地人的合作，他们提到由于生存需求而难以保障安全。人们面临的选择很有限：要么无法获得食物难以维生，要么进入可能遭受剥削的处境。因此我希望通过研究来捕捉这种背景环境，以及人们为何会进入可能被剥削的处境。

I suppose it's going to change what I focus on so the reason I've chosen to do photovoice is because I want to capture conditions that people are living in and what kind of interested me in doing the project in South Africa as well as being from there myself and also because of the apartheid situation I have an interest in that. But it's also working with people there who have said things like they find it difficult to stay safe because they have needs for survival. And so it's a limited kind of options that people have. It's between not being able to eat and afford to survive or going into a situation that might be exploitative. So I guess that's gonna I'm interested in sort of capturing the context of that and people's reasons for entering situations where they might be exploited.

很好，谢谢。你认为劳拉·布雷斯和朱莉娅·奥康奈尔的结构理论可能比凯文·贝尔学派的观点更能帮助你理解这些原因。

Great, thanks. And you think that perhaps for Laura Brace, Julia O'Connell, structural theory will help you get at those reasons better perhaps than the Kevin Bale School thought.

是的，因为这个理论更致力于解释根本原因——为什么会发生这种情况？而这正是我更感兴趣的。我认为要真正找到解决方案，必须探究原因。如果不先弄清楚事情发生的根源，就无法有效应对。

Yeah, because it kind of more explains tries to explain the underlying why, why is this happening? And I guess that's what I'm more interested in. I think really to find any solutions to it, have to look at the why. You can't really respond without looking at the reasons why it's happening in the first place.

谢谢，Bea。当你谈到凯文·贝尔的理论时，我想到一个问题。该理论仍然将现代奴隶制视为跨大西洋奴隶贸易的延续，但关注的是经济因素而非种族问题。我有点困惑的是，如何能在说这是跨大西洋奴隶贸易延续的同时却不关注种族因素？这如何成立？

Thanks, Bea. One question that kind of came to mind when you were talking about Kevin Bales' theory. So it still is around a continuation of the Transatlantic slave trade, you know, conceiving modern slavery as that, but focusing on economics, not race. I'm just a bit confused as to how you could say that it's a continuation of a transatlantic slave trade, but not focus on race. How does that work?

我想他的意思是说他们使用了相同的手段但针对不同人群。但在我看来，这种说法存在很多问题。比如，你无法脱离种族问题来单纯审视经济状况，因为国家间的经济差距很大程度上源于殖民主义历史。这两者怎么可能割裂来看？即便观察美国国内的贩卖人口现象，有色人种在本土被贩卖的比例也高得不成比例。

I guess what he's saying is they're the same kind of tactics used but different people targeted. But to me, I think there's a lot that goes against that. Like, for example, you can't really look at economic situations without looking at race because the whole reason for economic disparity between different countries, a lot of it is coming down to colonialism. So how can you possibly separate the two? And even when you look at domestic trafficking in places like The US, there's a huge over representation of people of color who are being trafficked domestically.

为什么会这样？如果与种族无关，那原因是什么？有趣的是在英国，至少从NRM统计数据来看，他们似乎没有记录受害者的种族信息，只记录原籍国。比如会标注'英国籍'，却没有具体的族裔细分数据。

Why is that? And if it's not to do with race, then why? And interestingly, in The UK, they don't appear to record at least in the NRM statistics, they don't appear to be recording people's race. They're recording country of origin. So you see they'll record that people are British, but there isn't a breakdown of their ethnicity.

我相信他们肯定掌握这些数据。希望他们确实有记录。只是我还没看到过。了解这些也会很有意思。

I'm sure they do have those figures. I'd hope they do have those figures. I haven't seen them. That would be interesting to know as well.

谢谢。也就是说你认为研究现代奴隶制问题时，某种程度上必须通过反种族主义的视角才能全面理解，因为它主要（虽非全部）影响着特定群体。

Thank you. So there's kind of a, you know, looking at modern slavery you're saying needs at least in part some sort of anti racist lens to understand it fully because of who it not solely but majority primarily affects.

确实如此。就像我之前说的，你不能对所有人口贩卖受害者一概而论。很多英国白人也经历过贩卖，他们成为目标有各种原因。所以这个观点并不适用于所有人。我总是很谨慎，因为我觉得争论双方都容易陷入这种绝对化的思维。

Yeah, definitely. And as I said before, like you can't really make a sweeping statement about everyone who's been through trafficking. There's lots of white British people who've been through trafficking who have, you know, been targeted for different reasons. So this isn't going to apply to everyone. And I'm always wary of, you know, because I think that there's a lot of that on both sides of the argument.

这就是被贩卖者的处境吗？不，虽然被贩卖者处境相似，但实际上个案差异很大。不过对有色人种的影响确实更为严重，这点需要重点研究和考量。定义也很有意思——当你讨论武力和胁迫时，《巴勒莫议定书》作为联合国定义人口贩卖的标准，提到'胁迫进行剥削性劳动'。但就像我说过的，被人直接剥削和被处境胁迫，这两者究竟有多大区别？

This is how it is for traffic people. No, this is how it is for traffic people, but actually it's different for a lot of, you know, depending on case by case. But certainly there's a lot bigger effects on people of color and that needs to be considered and looked into. Also it's interesting, when you think about definitions, when you're talking about the use of force and coercion, the Palermo Protocol, which is the kind of standard UN definition of human trafficking, coercion into exploitative labor. Like, how different is it, as I've said before, being exploited by a person or being exploited by a situation or being coerced by a situation.

想想全球南方许多人的处境：如果你因为生存所迫必须在金矿工作，报酬极低，但为了送孩子上学（或者自己就是童工）不得不做。这种情况下谁才是贩卖者？是矿主个人？是国家？还是那些资助并制造这种困境的多个国家？我觉得这个问题特别值得探讨。

Like when you think about a lot of people living in the global South, if you're being forced because of your situation to work in a gold mine where you're getting paid very little, but you have to do it because you need to send your kids to school or send yourself to school if you're a child yourself. Who's the trafficker there? Is it the individual who owns the gold mine or is it the, is it a state? Is it, is it multiple states who are kind of funding this and causing these conditions to begin with? I find that like quite an interesting debate as well.

确实，这很引人深思。正如你在媒体中提到的，我们经常讨论和关注的是犯罪团伙和贩运者，这确实让人感觉偏离了问题的根源。正如你所说，这种做法将问题个体化而非系统化。这是个非常好的观点。我想请问Fenn，在现代奴隶制核心成果集项目中，种族问题被提及了多少？

Yeah no that's fascinating. Think we often talk and focus on, as you said in the media, it's the criminal gangs and it's the trafficker and that definitely feels like it takes away from the sort of roots of the problem. As you said, it individualizes things rather than looking at systems. And and such a good point. I wondered if you could tell us, Fenn, a bit about how much did race come up in the modern core out modern slavery core outcome set project.

我们已经确认这个问题很重要，并且有些理论可以帮助揭示这一点，但我只是想了解你认为在核心成果集项目中这个问题被提及的程度如何。

So we've established it's important and there are theories which can help bring that out, but I just wanted to get your sense of how much you thought it came up or not in the core outcome set project.

我认为被提及了很多。虽然本可以在研究中更深入地探讨，但即便没有特意去研究，这个问题确实频繁出现。比如有个被投票表决的成果是‘消除种族主义’。我们对此有过有趣的讨论，最初用的是‘减少种族主义’，因为觉得这样更现实，毕竟无法完全消除。但参与者，尤其是幸存者，强烈坚持使用‘消除种族主义’这个表述。

I think it came up a lot. I think it's something we could have explored more in our research, but even without kind of specifically trying to explore it, it's something that definitely came up. Like one of the outcomes that was voted on was no racism. We'd actually had interesting discussions about that because we'd started off with the phrase less racism because we thought, well, that's more realistic, you know, we can't stop racism entirely. And, but, participants, especially survivors, were very keen that we used the term no racism'.

讨论中还涉及了人们在庇护程序中因来源地和肤色受到的不同对待，安全屋中也存在类似差异。在英国，不同肤色人群的经历也截然不同。因此这与人们的实际经历高度相关，尽管我们在研究中可能未能充分探讨。

And part of that discussion people talked about the different ways people are treated in the asylum process based on where they came from and what their skin colour was, Different ways people were treated in safe houses because of this as well. And different experiences for people in The UK based on skin colour as well. So it was very relevant to people's experience, even if it's something that we perhaps didn't explore enough of in the research itself.

谢谢Vee。这非常有意思。你认为在那个背景下有什么可以改进的地方吗？比如运用理论视角是否有助于更清晰地呈现这个问题？那个项目本可以采取哪些措施来更好地应对种族主义？

Thanks, Vee. So that's really interesting. Do you think there's something which could have been done better then in that context? Like would it have been useful, for instance, to use a theoretical lens to really bring that out? What could have helped that project address racism better?

这很难说。或许在访谈中我们可以多问些相关问题来更深入地挖掘。同样，在调查问卷中也可以设法纳入这方面内容。另外，目前仍在进行的分析工作也可以着重突出这一点。

It's difficult to say. I think perhaps in the interviews we could have asked more about it to draw it out a bit more. And again, perhaps in the surveys we could have included it somehow. And again, like in the analysis as well, which is still ongoing. It's something that can be drawn out there as well.

但我认为真正需要的是其他项目专门聚焦这个领域的研究。核心成果集项目的特定目标是确定适用于所有幸存者的成果——这理应包含种族因素，但还需要更多关于英国人口贩运幸存者遭受种族歧视经历的研究。

But really I think it needs more work from other projects to kind of solely focus on it as well. Core outcome said it had a specific focus of working out outcomes for all survivors, which should include race, but it would be good to see more research into people's experiences of survivors of human trafficking experiences of racial discrimination in The UK.

好的，谢谢。那么或许可以理解为，在这个项目中使用批判种族理论或后殖民理论的视角可能并不合适，你的意思是说这些理论更适合那些真正聚焦种族主义的项目？

Great. Thank you. So perhaps maybe then a sort of critical race lens or a postcolonial lens, you know, using those theories in the context of this project might not have worked, are you saying and maybe it would have been more suited to other projects really focusing on racism?

是的，我认同。我认为这些内容确实应该被纳入《现代奴隶制核心成果》项目，或许可以更深入一些，但我认为更重要的是需要针对这一主题进行专项研究。

Yeah I believe so. I think it's something that should definitely be included in the Modern Slavery Core Outcomes project and perhaps could be included a bit more, but more so I think it needs further research with a sole focus on it.

这非常有帮助。我知道你还在撰写一篇关于幸存者参与《债券奴隶制核心成果集》项目的论文。在那篇论文中，你运用了探讨权力动态的理论，我认为这实际上是个很好的切入点——理论上可以通过这些视角来审视种族问题，但或许范围更广些。能否请你谈谈用来探索项目中权力动态和幸存者参与情况的理论框架？

That's very helpful. So I know that you were also writing a paper on survivor involvement in the Bond Slavery Core Outcome Set Project. And in that paper, you're using theory which gets at power dynamics, which I think is actually quite a nice way of you know, you can, in theory, look at issues of race through racism through those, lenses, but it's also perhaps a little broader. So could you tell us a bit about the theories you're using to explore power dynamics and survivor involvement in the project?

作为亲身经历者，我特别关注的是幸存者与传统学术研究者之间的体验差异。尽管研究团队非常重视平等对待幸存者，但幸存者内心仍存在某种自卑感——这并非研究团队造成的，而是多年压迫经历留下的烙印。这种结构性不平等在教育体系中同样存在，不同种族群体获得的机会资源存在明显差异。

So something I'm really interested in coming on board as a survivor myself is kind of the difference of experience between being a survivor and being a kind of more traditional academic researcher is that there is that even though the research team has been very keen to include survivors on an equal level, there's still this underlying, I guess, feelings of inferiority for survivors. That's not something that's come from the research team necessarily. It's something that's kind of ingrained through, you know, for survivors through years and years of oppression. And you can see that kind of structurally in the education system as well that, inequalities when it comes to race and other oppressions. There's like less access for certain people and more access for others.

即便我们尝试通过参与式研究来直面这些权力动态，实践中仍非常困难，因为你对抗的是根深蒂固的百年压迫体系。这也是我论文的核心关注点，特别是关于幸存者和有色人种被去政治化的现象——他们往往需要以受害者身份才能获得认可，不得不扮演'我是受害者，请接纳我'的角色。

And it's, you can kind of see those dynamics coming into play within the research team, even though we try to kind of confront them and talk about them and balance things a little bit as participatory research aims to do. Practice it's very difficult to do because you're working against centuries of oppression that's kind of really deeply ingrained. So I suppose that's been the main focus of what I've been drawing out of the paper really. Especially as well like the kind of depoliticisation of survivors and people of colour because what you find is survivors particularly are kind of given citizenship on the basis of victimhood And that's often you kind of have to play along with the victimhood thing like I'm here because I'm a victim. Please let me in because I'm a victim.

正如阿拉多特也论述过的，这会导致自我能动性被压制。对于既是人口贩运幸存者又是有色人种的双重身份者，这种压迫是叠加的。想想看，有色人种获得投票权也才不久，如果同时还要承受'因为肤色没有政治话语权'+'我是受害者'的双重压力...

And as a result of that, this is something, Aradot talks about as well, the kind of agential aspects of self get kind of squashed. And I think that's the case for people of colour too. When you have both, like, you're a trafficking survivor and you're a person of colour, like that's kind of compounded. I mean, as we all know, it's not been so long that people of color have been allowed to even vote. So if you're kind of thinking, I don't have agency, don't have a political voice because of my skin color and also I'm a victim of trafficking, it kind of compounds them.

这与我们的项目直接相关：我们发现参与者强烈渴望运用政治话语权。很多人长期参与各类议题的倡导活动，这些诉求总会自然流露在讨论中。幸存者联盟的闵当在著作中写过关于幸存者希望留下政治遗产的章节——很多幸存者参与政治行动正是为了超越'受害者'标签，留下更具建设性的精神遗产。那本书由奇泽姆、斯特拉克和春编辑，收录了闵当的章节。

So I think that that's related to the project because what we found in the project was people really wanted to use their political voice. We had people who'd been doing campaigning, lobbying on all different kinds of issues and that really came into the conversation like whether we kind of asked about it or not that was always something that came in. And Min Dang from Survivor Alliance, she actually wrote a chapter in a book about survivors leaving a legacy, which I think is a reason why a lot of survivors are interested in political action as well. It's kind of leaving something of yourself that's more than I'm just a victim, leaving something different behind and something more constructive. That book is edited by Chisholm, Straker and Chun, the one with Min Dang's chapter in.

太棒了，谢谢。好的，我猜你是在运用一些关于权力动态、去政治化和主体性的理论和观点，来反思这个项目的进展，并试图揭示那些未被言说的内容，同时也引入历史视角，这样理解对吗？

Brilliant, thank you. Okay, so I guess that you're using some theories and ideas around power dynamics, around depoliticization and agency to reflect on how the project went and to I guess bring out some of the things which are more unsaid or to bring the history in as well I guess would that be fair?

是的，我认为确实如此，因为我觉得这很重要，而且应该得到更多考虑。不论你是否认同劳拉·布雷斯和朱莉娅·戴维森的观点，这个问题都需要以某种方式被纳入考量。

Yeah, believe so because I think it's important and I think it's something that should be considered more. Whether or not you kind of agree with Laura Brace's and Julia Davidson's kind of side of the argument, it still needs to be considered in some way.

那么你想传达什么信息呢？这个问题可能有点冒昧，但我很好奇。对于你说的那个‘权利实验室’——据我所知它可能是英国很多关于人口贩卖和奴隶制研究的中心，还获得了大量政府拨款——你对这样的组织有什么建议？是否存在空间让不同观点来揭示结构性种族主义问题？

So what message would you have? This is maybe a bit of a cheeky question, but I'm curious. What message would you have for, you know, you're saying that the Rights Lab, which as far as I understand is probably the center of a lot of, human trafficking on slavery research in The UK, got a lot of money from a government grant. You know, what message would you have for an organization like that? Is is there space for differing perspectives to bring out issues around structural racism?

或者说，是否必须在其他地方才能进行这样的讨论？

What, you know, or does it just have to be done somewhere else?

我认为双方可以加强合作，但这很困难，因为他们的立场截然不同。不过说到RadSlab，他们确实在研究人口贩卖前人们的处境，以及如何改善高风险地区人们的经济状况。但在我看来，结构性分析还远远不够，我们需要更多人指出人口贩卖的根源不是那些邪恶的个体（尽管确实存在这样的人），而是结构性原因，这才是我们需要真正面对的问题。

I think both sides could collaborate a bit more, but that's difficult because they have very different positions. But I mean, to be fed to the RadSlab, they do do research on people's conditions prior to trafficking and ways that people's kind of financial conditions can be improved in places that are high risk for human trafficking. But I definitely think there's, in my view, not enough kind of structural analysis and we need more people saying the cause of human trafficking is not these evil, horrible individuals. Although there are evil, horrible individuals involved, the cause of it is structural and that's something we really need to to really confront the issue.

谢谢。这让我想到一个相关问题：关于‘现代奴隶制’这个术语，如果你把它视为结构性问题，那么在进行研究和与幸存者合作时，是否应该扩大范围？比如那些可能不认为自己是幸存者，但经历过艰难和剥削性移民经历的人。‘现代奴隶制’这种分类方式是否在某种程度上人为地隔离了人群？你怎么看？

Thanks. That kind of makes me think of a related question around the term modern slavery and if you want to view it as a structural issue, should you frame you know, when you do research and you're working with survivors, should you work with a broader set of people, a broader range of people? So, you know, people, you know, who might not necessarily identify as survivors but might have been through difficult and exploitative migration experiences. Is there something about, you know, there's too much of a modern slavery as a way of categorising and perhaps artificially sealing off people? I don't know, what do you think?

是的，我非常同意。要真正弄清楚界限在哪里——其实这个概念更像一个光谱，这很有意思——但在法律特别是移民法里，他们划定了实际上并不存在的明确界限。所以和那些传统上不被视为现代奴隶制幸存者、但处境极其相似的人交流会很有意义。比如根据定义，劳拉·布雷斯也提到过，很多情况下的妻子们也可以被纳入这个范畴，她们被迫维持婚姻关系，被迫承担婚姻中的无偿劳动，甚至可能遭受暴力和胁迫。可以说这和奴隶制几乎没什么区别。

Yeah, I definitely agree. Think to kind of really find out about where the boundaries lie, if they I mean, there's the idea of it being a spectrum as well, which is interesting, but definitely legally and in sort of immigration law and things, they set clear boundaries that aren't really there. So it would be interesting to speak to people who might not traditionally be considered modern slavery survivors, but have very similar, almost identical positions. I mean, if you think about the definition, and this is something Laura Brace talks about as well, it can be applied to wives in a lot of situations as well, who are kind of forced to stay in a marriage and then forced to take on unpaid labor as part of the marriage and maybe through violence and coercion. Like you could argue that there's little difference between that.

因此，这可能是一个更广泛的定义，确实值得我们去探究。

So it could be a much more expanded definition that's definitely worth kind of investigating.

谢谢。我想，有了这种更具结构性的框架和扩展定义，我们可能会得出不同的解决方案。这大概就是你之前在播客中提到的两种不同理论视角，它们似乎导向了关于需要采取何种行动的不同结论。你能再详细谈谈这一点吗？

Thank you. And I guess with that more structural framing, with that sort of expanded definition, will come to different solutions, I suppose. That's kind of what you were saying, I think, earlier in in the podcast where you were talking about the two different theoretical perspectives, and they seems to lead to two different sort of conclusions on what needs to be done. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

是的，凯文·贝尔斯·赖特实验室指出，很多工作都集中在个体救援上。其中一些是预防性的，比如建立更道德的企业、鼓励公平贸易实践，以及通过法律手段解决，比如逮捕贩运者、打击这些贩运团伙。但这一方并没有太多关于如何平衡事物的建议。也许因为这是个极其艰巨的任务，要平衡全球不平等并非易事。

Yeah so Kevin Bales Wright's Lab said is a lot of that tends to be focused on rescuing individuals. So some of it is preventative in the terms of like, setting up more ethical businesses and, and, encouraging fair trade practices and kind of legal justice solutions like arresting traffickers, combating these trafficking gangs. And, but there isn't so much recommendation from that side about how we balance things. And maybe because it's a huge, huge task, you know, it's not something they can easily be called for is that we balance the balance global inequality. That's not straightforward.

这确实是个巨大的挑战。与此同时，确实需要做些小事来帮助个人。但同样重要的是，我们不能忽视大局，正如劳拉·布雷斯和胡里奥·奥康纳·戴维森所主张的，奴隶制真正的遗留问题在于全球不平等，这才是我们需要关注的焦点。

It's, it's huge, you know, and, and it's true that in the meantime, like smaller things need to be done to help individual people. But at the same time, I don't think you can do that without looking at the bigger picture, which is what Laura Brace and Julio O'Connor Davidson are arguing is that you need to the real kind of afterlife of slavery is in this global inequality and that's what we need to be focusing on.

非常感谢。我们的播客即将结束，我想问一下，如果有听众想在工作中融入更多理论视角，他们可以去哪里阅读你提到的这些理论？另外，对于将理论融入工作，你有什么建议吗？

Great, thank you so much. So just coming towards the end of our podcast, I'd like to ask a bit about if there's a listener out there who's thinking, okay, I am wanting to include sort of a more theoretical perspective in my work. Where could they go to read about some of these theories that you've talked about? And also, you know, do you have any top tips for including theory in your work?

当然要全面了解各方观点，包括批判性视角。作为一个幸存者，我自己阅读时也难免会有防备心理，这很复杂，但确实需要试着放下戒备，接纳更多批判性观点。我推荐几本书：朱莉娅·奥康奈尔·戴维森的新书《我们对奴隶制了解多少？》是个简短而全面的概述。

Definitely looking into kind of all sides of the argument, looking into critical perspectives as well and trying to I mean it's hard to read as a survivor myself as well. Trying to be like not so defensive about it is quite hard, like especially when yeah, it's complicated but definitely trying to like let your guard down a little and take in more critical perspectives. There's a few books I'd recommend. Julia O'Connell Davidson's If you want a short read, there's a book by Julia O'Connell Davidson that's just come out, which is called What Do We Know About Slavery? That kind of gives a really useful overview in a small book.

还有一本由朱莉娅·奥康奈尔·戴维森和劳拉·布雷斯合编的文集，收录了多位作者的作品。不过我一时想不起书名了。

And another one that's written by Julia O'Connor Davidson and Laura Brace, it's edited by them, and it's a collection of works by different authors. I actually can't remember what it's called.

如果听众们查看网页，我们会在那里提供相关资源。

We'll get it in the, if the listeners look on the webpage, we'll have a resource there.

好的，太棒了。

Okay. Awesome.

我认为你的切入点很好。保持批判视角并适当放下防备确实很重要。比如我做移民研究时，最初总认为内政部和政府都是邪恶的——虽然这观点未必有多大改变，但批判性视角至少能让你更细致地解读理论和研究发现。所以这是个很好的出发点。

I think where you started was quite nice. It is really good to think about critical perspectives and and try and let your guard down a bit. I feel like I often go into research with, you know, especially, like, I do a lot of migration work, and my initial perspective is that sort of home office are obviously evil and the government is evil. Not that this necessarily changes much, but I think that having a critical perspective at least gives you a more nuanced way of interpreting theory and interpreting your findings. So I think it is a good place to start.

至少你们都了解对立面的批评意见，这样就能将其融入自己的解读，使论点更有力。好了，最后一个问题：如果想了解更多关于'现代奴隶制核心成果集'项目的信息，我们可以去哪里查询？

At least you all know the criticisms of the other side, and then you can weave that into your interpretation so you have an even stronger argument. Alright. Okay. Final question. If you want to find out more about the Morn Slavery Core Outcome Set project and that work, where can we go?

可以访问mscast.co.uk，我们在推特上的账号是mslaverycast，这些平台都有我们工作的相关信息。

So you can go to mscast.co.uk. We're also on Twitter and mslaverycast and you can find information about the work we're doing on there.

太感谢了。非常感谢Bea，也谢谢各位听众。下期节目我们将继续这个系列——今天探讨了反种族主义定性研究的理论框架，下期将邀请Wayne Farrer讨论如何以反种族主义方式构建研究问题。敬请收听，谢谢大家，晚安。

Brilliant. Thank you so much. So thanks so much, Bea, and thank you listeners. Next episode we will be continuing this series so today we looked at a lot of the theoretical framing around anti racist qualitative research and next episode we'll be talking hopefully to Wayne Farrer about how we frame research questions in an anti racist way. So please do join us for that, thank you and good night.