你学会了生存 | 现在是时候领导了 - 李·波维（奥运教练）

欢迎收听《坚韧心智》播客。本期节目您将听到《学会生存，现在该领导了》与李·帕维的对话。本集也提供视频版本，点击节目说明中的链接即可在YouTube观看。请享受节目。

Welcome to the Resilient Mind Podcast. In this episode, you'll be listening to You Learn to Survive, Now It's Time to Lead, with Lee Pavi. This episode is also available in video. Watch it on YouTube by clicking the link in the show notes. Enjoy.

我在公司变得一文不值前一个月把它卖掉了。哇。

I sold my business a month before it was worthless. Wow.

我们需要完全靠自己完成一切。我们需要自己解决所有问题。

We need to do it all on our own. We need to figure out everything on our own.

这种白手起家的神话。完全是胡说八道。

This myth of the self made person. It's utter BS.

这些运动员或企业家，他们组建团队并实际塑造环境。

These athletes or these entrepreneurs, they build a team around them and actually shape the environment.

在商界，我认为你的韧性比纯粹的智力更重要。

In business, I think your resilience is more important than your outright intelligence.

你会发现有些领导者存在共同障碍，可能是抗拒审视内心并承认'我才是问题所在'。

You find that some leaders have got common barriers, maybe resistances to look internally and be like, I'm the problem.

我遇到过许多实力足以参加奥运会的运动员。他们缺少的是另外两个关键要素。

I've met many athletes that were good enough to go to the Olympics. What they didn't have was the other two components.

你能详细讲讲这个概念吗？

Can you tell us a little bit more about that concept?

在美国，奥运项目没有资金支持。所有组织都必须自筹经费，政府不会拨款。你必须获得合适的支持。精英运动员和创业者之间的共通性会让你大吃一惊。

There's no funding for Olympic sports in America. All of these organizations have to fund them themselves. There's no government funding for it. You've got have the right kind of support behind you. You would be amazed at the crossover between elite athletes and founders.

欢迎Lee来到《坚韧心智》播客。能邀请你作为嘉宾，我们感到非常兴奋。

Welcome, Lee, to the Resilient Mind podcast. We are super excited to have you as one of our guests here.

嘿，早上好，辛巴。

Hey. Good morning, Simba.

早上好。让我们从头开始聊吧。你曾是奥运选手，现在又执教奥运运动员，这段旅程是如何开始的？

Good morning. So maybe let's start from the beginning. You are an Olympic or you used to be an Olympic athlete, and now you coach Olympians. How did you get started in that journey?

其实我自己从未参加过奥运会。但我参与过奥运工作，也培养出过奥运选手。年轻时我在体育方面还算有些天赋。

Yeah. So I I actually I've not been an Olympic athlete myself. I never went to the Olympics. I've worked in Olympics, and I've coached athletes that have become Olympians. I, as a young man, was pretty talented at sport.

那时我同时参与橄榄球、游泳和场地自行车运动。场地自行车是我父亲的项目，因此我小时候对它最感兴趣。我运动生涯的第一个目标就是超越父亲。幸运的是，父亲水平其实并不高。

So I was doing rugby, swimming, and track cycling. And track cycling was my dad's sport. So that was the one I was kind of most interested in as a kid. And my first part of that journey was I want to beat my dad. So, luckily for me, my dad wasn't actually that good.

我在12岁那年就击败了他，之后就开始寻找更高目标。后来入选国家队时，我意识到自己实力仍有不足——虽在国内表现出色，但还达不到奥运夺冠水平。特别是当时英国对体育的资助极少，这种情况直到90年代末才有所改变。

So I beat him when I was 12 and then it's like, okay, now I need some bigger goals. I ended up getting on to the national team and realized that I wasn't quite good enough. I was good at national level, but I wasn't going to go and win the Olympics. And especially at that time in The UK, there was no funding for sport. This was before a big rollout of funding for sport that happened in late 90s.

那是90年代初，我明白这行难以谋生，于是转行做房地产。先是在大企业工作，后来自己创业。虽然收入可观，但我始终感受不到成就感，也谈不上热爱。

This was the early 90s. And I realized I couldn't make a career out of it. So I actually went into real estate instead and I worked for a large corporate company and then I opened my own real estate business. And the money was great, Yeah I never really felt fulfilled. I didn't really love it.

后来我又开始恢复训练参赛。某天有个人闯进我办公室说要拜师，我表示自己早已不参赛也不执教。但他坚持说听说我是本地最厉害的，非要跟我学不可。

And I started competing again myself. I wanted to get fit again so I started competing again myself and a little bit of an interesting story. Somebody wandered into my office and said I want you to coach me. And I said, well, I don't coach, and I'm not even competing anymore. And he said, well, I've heard you're the best local guy and I want to do this sport and I want you to coach me.

他软磨硬泡直到我同意陪练，这让我重新找回了训练的感觉，过程非常愉快且受益匪浅。后来我开始在自行车馆指导年轻车手，专攻场地短距离项目——这是相对冷门的细分领域。

And basically badgered me until I would start training with them. And that kind of got me back into training. And it was really, it was great. It was really helpful. And then I started coaching some of the younger riders at the Velodrome who were good at what I did, which was track sprinting, which is kind of a smaller part of the sport.

有次在德国观看欧锦赛时，看着选手比赛我突然决定：下周再也不回办公室了，我要彻底告别房产经纪行业。于是卖掉了公司，这个时机非常幸运。

And from there, I was sitting at a European championships in Germany watching one of the athletes compete. And I thought, I don't wanna go back to the office next week. I don't wanna be a real estate agent anymore. So I sold my business. I got very lucky.

那是2007年12月——辛巴你可能不记得（你看上去很年轻），当时英国即将爆发严重的房地产崩盘，2008年1月就发生了。我的生意在变得一文不值前一个月成功脱手。

This was in December 2007. And, I'm not sure you're old enough, Simba, you look, you're a very fresh face. But, this was a time when there was a huge property crash in The UK. And that happened in January 2008. So I sold my business a month before it was worthless.

我真是幸运至极。之后我转型成为全职体育教练，在这条路上成就斐然，最终担任了美国自行车国家队场地短距离奥运发展计划的主教练。后来新冠疫情来袭，一切戛然而止。我工作的自行车馆关闭了一年多。

I got incredibly lucky. And then I transitioned from that to full time sports coaching. Had a wonderful career in that, ended up being the national team coach USA cycling for their track sprint Olympic development program. And then COVID came and everything stopped. The Velodrome that I worked out of was closed for over a year.

美国自行车协会决定暂停所有项目。于是我不得不再次转型，这就是我现在从事创始人领导力教练工作的由来。

USA Cycling said we're going to pause all of our programs. So I had to pivot again and that's how I pivot to what I do now, is founder and leadership coaching.

真有意思。听起来你一直在人生道路上不断转变职业方向。回到你指导的运动员这个话题，你认为衡量优秀运动员或高成就者的成功标准是什么？又有哪些常见障碍会阻碍人们成为高成就者？

Fascinating. And it sounds like, again, you've been changing and transitioning different career paths as you've been progressing through life. And with the coaching, so going back to some of the athletes that you coach, what are some of the success measures that makes a great athlete or a high achiever? And what are some of the common barriers that might prevent someone from being a high achiever?

确实。我一直认为运动成就有三个要素：第一是身体天赋，没有这个基础一切都无从谈起。有趣的是，根据我的经验，具有身体天赋的人其实比想象中要多。

Yeah. So I've always thought there's three parts to athletic success. Number one is physical talent. You just can't get there without physical talent. And interestingly, in my experience, there's actually more people physical talent than you realize.

我们总认为奥运级天赋很罕见。我见过许多实力足以参加奥运会的运动员，他们缺少的是另外两个要素——比如心理素质、毅力、驱动力和韧性，也就是安杰拉·达克沃斯在《坚毅》书中定义的那种持续前进的顽强品质。最后一个要素则是环境。

You know, we think that kind of Olympic talent is rare. And I've met many athletes that were good enough to go to the Olympics. What they didn't have was the other two components, you know, and one of those is that mental aptitude, fortitude, drive, and resilience. And, you know, what somebody like Angela Duckworth, the writer of the book grit would determine as grit that kind of just dogged ability to keep moving forwards. And then the last one is environment.

你需要有合适的支持体系，要生活在合适的地方。以我的项目场地自行车为例，想取得成功就必须住在赛车馆附近，而全球赛车馆数量非常有限。

So you've got to have the right kind of support behind you. You've got to live in the right place. Know, take my sport, track sprint cycling. You have to live near a velodrome to be successful at it. And there's only a limited number of velodromes in the world.

如果居住地离赛车馆太远，你很可能根本接触不到这项运动，更别说达到高水平了。此外还需要当地有能带你晋级的优秀教练，以及所在国家有支持计划。这在美国就是个问题——美国没有对奥运项目的资金支持。

So if you don't live within a reasonable distance of a velodrome, it's unlikely you'll be exposed to the sport and it's unlikely you'd be able to do it to a high level. And then you've got to live somewhere where a good enough coach that's going to get you to the level. And then you've got to hope that in your country, there's a program that supports you. That was one of the issues here in America. There's no funding for Olympic sports in America.

所有这些组织都必须自筹资金。政府没有提供资助。这意味着在许多奥运项目中，美国落后于世界其他国家，因为我们缺乏高水平的资金支持。此外，你还需要有支持你的家庭体系。根据我的经验，如果缺少这三要素，想要达到奥运级别是相当困难的。

All of these organizations have to fund them themselves. There's no government funding for it. And that actually means in a lot of Olympic sports America is behind other countries in the world because we don't have that high level of funding. And then you've got to have the family system that supports you and helps you. And in my experience, if you don't have those three things, it's pretty hard to go on to be an Olympic level.

我遇到过许多运动员，他们只具备其中一两项条件，最终未能成为奥运选手，因为通常需要这三者兼备才能成功。

And I've met many athletes that have one or two of them that didn't go on to be Olympians because you need all three of those typically to succeed.

那么这三个要素对初创企业创始人或企业家来说也同样适用吗？

And are those three components the same for startup founders or entrepreneurs?

是的。你会惊讶于顶尖运动员和创始人之间的共通性。我们谈论的都是那些动力十足、通常极具韧性的人，因为在生活中你会遭遇很多拒绝，会遇到很多问题，会经历很多挫折。

Yeah. You would be amazed at the crossover between elite athletes and founders. We're talking highly driven people that are typically very resilient because you're gonna get a lot of nos in life. You're gonna have a lot of issues. You're gonna have a lot of injuries.

你会遭遇诸多阻碍，会有人告诉你做不到，会有人说'我不会借钱给你''这不是个好主意'。而你必须重新振作再次尝试，或者调整策略另辟蹊径。

You're gonna have a lot of setbacks. You're gonna have people that tell you you can't do it. You're have people that say, I'm not gonna lend you money. This isn't a good idea. And you have to bounce back up and try again, or you have to adapt and do something differently.

因此两者存在很大共性，这也是为什么我们常看到成功运动员——甚至未必是奥运选手，而是高水平业余运动员——在商界表现优异，因为那种韧性、那种坚持的能力极其有用。实际上在商业领域，我认为韧性比纯粹的智力更重要。持续做某件事的能力、重新站起来的能力以及适应能力，我认为这才是成功最重要的因素。当然还需要一些运气，体育运动中也有运气成分。所以我们回到那三个要素：你是否出生在正确的地方？

So there's a big crossover and it's why we often see successful athletes or maybe not even Olympians, but high level amateur athletes do very well in business because that resilience, that ability to endure is super useful. And actually in business, I think your resilience is more important than your outright intelligence. The ability to keep doing something and to get back up and to adapt is I think actually the most important thing for success. And then there's some luck and there's luck in sport too. So we go back to those three things of, were you born in the right place?

你是否拥有合适的父母？这对创始人完全同理。你是否出生在给予你机会的环境中？你是否出生在美国硅谷？因为如果是的话，你立即就比其他人有更大的成功几率。

Were you born to the right parents? It's exactly the same for founders. Were you born in an environment that gave you an opportunity? Were you born in Silicon Valley in America? Because if you were, you've immediately got a better chance of success than somebody who wasn't.

这并不意味着你不会成功，只是说你成功的可能性更大。运气也起着一定作用。确实，我在他们与真正的高绩效人士之间看到了大量共通点。我通常在顶尖人才身上发现的一个特质是自我重塑的能力——能够意识到‘这样行不通，我该如何换个方式？’

That doesn't mean you can't succeed, it just means you're more likely to. So luck plays a part of this as well. But yeah, I see massive crossovers between them and really just high performing people. And one of the things I typically encounter in the highest performing people is an ability to reinvent themselves. So an ability to go, okay, this isn't working, how will I do this differently?

他们具备聚集支持者的能力。我最初在顶级运动员身上观察到这点：他们会组建团队，汇集体能教练、心理教练、运动科学家以及像我这样的技术教练。这正是我在合作创始人身上看到的特质，也是我热爱这份工作的原因——帮助创始人们更高效地与团队协作。

An ability to get people around them that are going to support them. I first saw this with high level athletes. They would bring people in strength and conditioning coaches, psychological coaches, sports scientists, technique coaches like myself, and they would bring everybody together and form this team. And that's what I see with the founders I work with. And that's why I love the jobs that I do, which is actually to help those founders work more effectively with those people.

因此我最喜欢的工作类型是：在同一组织中指导多人如何更高效地协作。我享受这种复杂性——帮助每个人相互理解，培养同理心，明白彼此的运作方式和动机，最终实现协同效应。

So my favorite type of work is where I'm coaching multiple people in the same organization on how to be more effective with each other. And I love the complexity of helping everybody understand each other and then have empathy, compassion, understanding for how that person works and what motivates them and then bringing that all together.

我非常认同你的观点，因为我们总有种错觉，认为必须独自完成一切。无论是创始人还是身处压力环境，我们总羞于寻求帮助。但你说的是这些运动员或企业家会主动构建团队，塑造有利环境来实现目标。那么组建合适团队是否有具体步骤？

And I love what you're saying, because I think there's this idea that we need to do it all on our own. Need to figure out everything on our own, right? Whether it's a founder or you're in a stress environment, it's almost like we feel like we don't want to ask for help. But what you are saying is these athletes or these entrepreneurs, they build a team around them and actually shape the environment so that they can achieve the outcome that they want to achieve. And so are there any steps to building the right team or getting the people around you so you can start changing that environment?

好问题。但我想先补充你提到的‘白手起家神话’——这完全是胡扯，辛巴。我从未见过真正独自成功的案例。当然，这不代表寒门无法逆袭，这完全可能实现。

Yeah, great question. I want to take one step back though, because I really liked what you said there to begin that statement and that question of this myth of the self made person. It's utter BS, Simba. I've to meet anybody who's successful as a self made person. And that doesn't mean that you can't come from poverty and become successful because that is possible.

你生命中总有贵人相助：可能是发现你潜质的老师，可能是朋友、导师、父母或其亲友。正如你所说，最终是组建的团队让你绽放光芒。由于自负和自恋，某些成功者常独揽功劳，但事实上他们身边永远有团队支撑。单打独斗不可能成功。

There is many people in your life that are part of that, whether it be a teacher that sees something in you and encourages you to do it, whether it be a friend or a mentor or a parent or a parent's friend. And then it's the team that you build around you, as you said, that then enables you to be brilliant. We see because of ego and because of narcissism, people kind of claiming success, especially some of the successful people, yet there is always a team around them. Nobody can do it by themselves. It's impossible.

根本做不到。那么如何建设团队？我记得Instagram创始人说过，他认为创始人兼CEO的职责就是找到比自己聪明的人，并授权他们接管业务板块。这正是我的理念：CEO不该是房间里最聪明的人——尽管我辅导的对象通常确实是房间里最聪明能干的人。

You just can't. So then, you know, what do we do to build these teams? I was listening to an interview with one of the founders of Instagram and he said he believed his job as a founder and CEO is to find people that were smarter than him and then enable them to take over control and responsibility for areas of his business. And that's exactly how I think of it. I think your job as a CEO is not to be the smartest person in the room, even though typically the people I coach are the smartest person in the room and are incredibly capable.

关键在于他们如何放下控制欲，转而信任他人。对于非常聪明的人来说，最难的就是信任别人，并接受他们可能以不同于你的方式行事。昨天我在给一位非常出色的创始人做辅导，他的企业很可能在未来十二个月内以数十亿美元的价格出售。他谈到自己作为首席营销官（CMO）的经历。

It's how do they let go of that and instead trust other people. And that's usually the hardest thing for very brilliant people is to trust other people and that they might do it differently from you. They might do it different way from you. I was doing a coaching session with a really incredible founder yesterday whose business is probably gonna sell for some multiple of a billion dollars at some point in the next twelve months. And he was talking about how he's CMO, he's chief marketing officer.

他不明白自己是怎么做到的，但每个季度都能达成销售目标。他问我：当这个人用完全不同于我的方式取得成功时，我该如何放下让他按我的方式行事的执念？我们正在探讨他如何放手，并持续赋能这个人继续做他们已经成功的事。很多这种‘辛巴心态’都源于我们的成长经历。

He doesn't understand how he does what he does, but he hits the sales target every quarter. And he's saying to me like, how do I let go of wanting him to do it my way when this guy is being successful? And he does it completely differently to what I would and he's successful. And we're working on like how he lets go and how he just keeps empowering this person to do what they're already doing and to recognize it. And a lot of this Simba comes from what was our upbringing?

我们童年时如何与世界互动？我们拥有哪些与生俱来的性格天赋？世界又是如何回应我们的？长大后，我们会把原生家庭的模式复制到其他系统中。我经常在企业中观察到，领导者们正在重演他们与父母、兄弟姐妹及同学相处时的家庭模式。

How did we move through the world as a child? What are the genetic personality gifts that we had? And then how did the world meet us? And then we grow up and we keep acting out that family system in other systems. So often when I'm in these businesses, I'm watching leaders act out the family system that they did with their parents and their siblings and their schoolmates.

如果一个领导者来自一个不擅长建立关系、也难以取得成就的家庭系统，他们该如何意识到成长环境可能正在影响自己现在的行为方式和领导风格？

And if a leader came from like a family system that was not adapted in terms of forming those relationships and achieving great outcomes, how do they start becoming aware of how their environment when they're growing up might be influencing how they are showing up and how they are leading now?

我们都会受到环境的影响。可以从两个角度来思考：我们天生具有某些基因决定的性格特征。我曾目睹母亲在十年间抚养了100名高风险儿童，这让我直观地见证了先天与后天培养的争论。

So we are all influenced by our environment. If we think of this in two ways. So we come to the world with certain genetic personality traits. And I watched my mom foster a 100 high risk kids over a ten year period. So I got upfront to watch her then nature versus nurture debate.

这让我对这个领域产生了浓厚兴趣，并进行了大量研究。任何父母都会告诉你，同一个家庭的两个孩子可能拥有完全不同的性格特征。我们确实天生具有某些性格特质，而当我们来到这个世界后，世界会与这些特质产生互动。其中最大的影响因素就是家庭，因为我们通常与家人相处时间最长。

And that made me particularly interested in it, done a ton of studying in it. And any parent will tell you, you can have two siblings with completely different personality traits that are living in the same family system. So we are absolutely born with certain personality traits. And then we come into the world and the world meets those personality traits. And the biggest influence on them is our family because we spend typically the most time with them.

童年时期，如果你有幸拥有父母双亲，那么父母就是你理解男性和女性的原型。你会最大程度地受到这种形象的影响。这种影响可能以多种形式呈现。说到适应性，你可能有一位抗拒改变、非常固执的家长。

And as children, if you're lucky enough to have a mom and dad, mom and dad are your example of a man and a woman. So you are most influenced by what that vision is. And there's lots of different ways it can go. So you talk about adaptability. You might have a parent who is very unadaptable, that hates change, that is very rigid.

你童年时的适应方式可能是走向完全相反的方向，认为‘我对一切持开放态度，喜欢即兴而为，愿意尝试任何事’。仅仅因为你的家庭系统是某种模式，并不意味着你也会如此，但你可能会对此产生反应。而这份礼物就是——你意识到自己的反应了吗？刚开始合作时常常让人惊讶的是，他们会请我进去然后说‘这位高管让我很头疼’。我们首先要做的是‘先说说你自己，谈谈你的成长经历，让我们先了解你’。

And your adaption as a child might be to go in completely the opposite direction and go, I'm open for anything and I love spontaneity and I'll try anything. So just because your family system is one way doesn't mean that you will, however, you might have a reaction to it. And then the gift is, are you aware of your reaction? So what often surprises people when I first start working with them is they'll get me in and they say, right, I've got this executive and I'm struggling to deal with them. And the first work we'll do will be, okay, tell me about you, tell me about your upbringing, let's figure out you.

关键在于你如何与他们建立联系，以及如何用更有效的方式建立这种联系。我常被问到‘辛巴，你认为伟大领导的个人版本是什么？什么特质能造就伟大领导者？’我认为有两点：第一是你能调整自己去适应你领导的人。

Because what matters is how do you relate to them and then how can you relate to them in a different way that's gonna be more effective? So I often get asked the question, Simba, what is my version of great leadership? You know, what do I think makes you a great leader? And I think there's two things. The first one is you are able to adapt yourself to the people that you are leading.

你不会以完全相同的面貌面对所有人。当我听到领导者或所谓的专家在播客中说‘这是我的领导风格’或‘这是最佳领导风格’时，这就是危险信号。根本不存在所谓的最佳风格。每个人都需要不同的应对方式。在我看来，伟大的领导者都具有适应性。

So you don't show up as the same version of you to everybody. A big red flag for me is when I hear leaders or so called experts on podcasts saying, here's my leadership style, or here's the best leadership style. There's no such thing. Everybody needs to be approached in a different way. So for me, the great leaders are adaptable.

他们懂得如何与对话者沟通。这可能是语音语调，可能是语速节奏，也可能是其他多种方式。比如要理解谁需要隐喻性的拥抱和臂膀的支持，谁需要你充满激情地说‘来吧我们一起干’。迄今为止最优秀的领导者，我认为都是那些最善于变通的人。

They know how to speak to the person they're speaking to. And that can be tone of voice, that can be pace of speech, that can be so many different things. It can be understanding who needs a bit more of a hug and an arm round them, metaphorically speaking. It can be that person that you gotta get into the room and be high energy with and say, all let's do this. And the best leaders by far are the ones that I think are the most adaptable.

这源于强烈的自我认知。他们真正了解自己，明白‘我是谁’以及‘为什么我会这样反应’。然后他们能把自我放在一边，去真正理解对方的立场。

And that comes from a strong sense of self. They really understand themselves and they understand who am I and why do I react the way I do? And then they're able to take that, put it to one side and meet that person where they're at.

你是否发现有些领导者存在共同障碍，比如最初会抗拒内省，不愿承认‘我才是问题所在’？还是说多数领导者都愿意接受这种反馈？

You find that some leaders have got common barriers, maybe resistances to look internally and be like, I'm the problem when they first meet you. Or do you find that a lot of leaders are just open to that feedback?

我认为两种情况都存在，Timber。通常人们都希望是别人的错对吧？‘不是我的问题，是别人导致我们没能成功’。而聪明的领导者会很快承担责任说‘我明白自己在这件事中的角色了，我看到了我的问题所在’。

I think there's a bit of both, Timber. Typically people want it to be somebody else's fault, right? It's not my fault, it's somebody else's fault that we're not succeeding. And then the smart leaders quite quickly take responsibility and go, oh, I see how I'm involved here. I see my part in this.

我意识到自己需要适应、改变、成长和学习。通常我被请去是因为他们一开始就希望我能解决问题。这就是起点，对吧？通常我的客户都是非常聪明的人，他们创造了卓越且成功的服务或产品，但在领导力方面相对生疏，没有通过传统途径获得领导经验。他们没在大型企业工作过，没接受过像我年轻时幸运获得的那种培训。

I see how I need to adapt or I need to change, or I need to grow and learn. So I think it's a combination of you know usually if I'm called in it's because they want me to fix something to begin with. That's where it starts right? Okay things aren't working like we want or typically with my clients they're very very smart people who have created something brilliant and successful of service, a product, but they're fairly new at leading and they haven't come through leadership in the typical way. So they didn't work for a corporate company, they didn't get that training that say I was very lucky to get as a young man.

我曾在一家大型房地产公司工作，遇到了一位出色的经理。实际上，我遇到过好几位优秀的经理和区域总监，他们教会了我许多领导之道。公司提供了大量培训，因此我很早就打下了良好的领导基础。再加上我天生具备领导才能。

I worked for a large real estate company, I had a fantastic manager. I've had, in fact, a number of fantastic managers and area directors that taught me so much about leadership. There was a lot of training in the company. So I got that good foundation in leadership very early in life. Plus I have a natural aptitude for leader.

我一直是那种主动承担责任的人。而我看到的这些创始人通常在28到40岁出头，他们可能没有经历过那种领导模式。突然间他们要管理二三十、四五十甚至上百号人。他们会说：‘李，我知道怎么做事、创业、做产品、搞服务、做营销，但我不懂这些人。’

I've always been that person that likes to step up to take responsibility. And then I see these brilliant founders typically in their kind of late 20s to early 40s who may not have been through that model. And suddenly they're in charge of twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, maybe a 100 people. And they're going, Lee, I know how to do the thing, to create the business, to make the product, to do the service, to do the marketing. I don't understand these human beings.

你能帮我解决这个问题吗？能帮我理解那些能让我成功的因素吗？那些最终决定我成功的关键。根据我的经验，就算你有全世界最棒的创意和产品，如果没有合适的团队，依然会失败。

Can you help me with that? Can you help me understand the things that make me be successful? The things that are gonna ultimately lead to my success. And in my experience, you're gonna have the best ideas in the world, the best product in the world. If you don't have the right team around it, it will fail.

所以归根结底还是人的问题。当领导者、创始人意识到‘哦，要想真正成功就必须更懂人性’时，就是他们找我的时候。

So it always comes down to the human being. So there's that moment where leaders, founders have that realization of, oh, I need to understand humans better if I wanna be really successful. That's when they call me in.

在这个过程中，身份认同如何影响人们看待自己的方式？

And how does identity play into this in terms of how people see themselves?

这是核心所在。有些创始人需要成为英雄，如果当不了英雄就会非常挣扎，因为他们从小形成的身份认同就是‘我必须当英雄’。但这对领导者来说并不是好事。

It's everything. You know, it is everything. You know, I've got founders that, need to be the hero. And if they're not being the hero, they really struggle because their identity as a kid was, I need to be the hero. And that doesn't work well as a leader.

领导者需要退后一步，赋能他人成为英雄和闪耀的明星。我们在辅导初期就明确这一点，帮助他们认识自我。关于辅导方式——至少让我简述我的方法：我会直接询问'你想达成什么目标？我们为何在此？你的愿景是什么？'

A leader needs to step back and empower other people to be the hero and to be the stars at time. So we identify that at the beginning of the process as we're kind of helping them figure out who they are. How coaching works, let me give you a quick of my coaching at least, and how I believe coaching works is, I come to you and I say, what is it you wanna achieve? What are we here for? What are your goals?

接着我们厘清现状。辅导的核心在于找出需要改变的部分，助你从现状抵达目标。在这个过程中，他们可能以为只有某个障碍，但往往发现是多重因素交织。我们逐步解决这些问题时，他们会获得更高层次的自我认知。这正是我作为自行车教练的理念——我的终极目标是让自己这个教练变得多余。

And then we figure out where you are now. And the coaching is what needs to change for you to get from where you are now to where you want to get to. And during that process they might have an idea if it's one thing that's holding them back or it's this and then we uncover that it's probably not what they thought, and it's a multitude of things, and we start to address those and work on those, and they get this higher level of self awareness. And this was the same attitude I took as a cycling coach. My job is to put myself out of a job as a coach.

我对运动员的期许是：即便奥运会当天我食物中毒无法亲临赛道，你仍能发挥最佳水平。这需要大量自我反思训练——教会人们自我评估，理解自身状态，准确识别情绪。比如感受到愤怒时，要思考'这种愤怒在向我传递什么信号？'特别是男性客户，他们从小被灌输'情绪是软弱的表现'这种谬论，但事实上情绪只是数据。

I want you as an athlete to be so well prepared for the Olympic Games that if I got food poisoning on the day of the Olympic Games and I couldn't be at the Velodrome with you standing next to you, you're going to perform just as well as if I wasn't there. So there's a lot of self reflection. There's a lot of teaching people to be able to evaluate themselves, to be able to understand what's going on for them, to be able to locate themselves emotionally and go, feeling anger right now. What is this anger telling me? So when I work with my clients, especially men, because they've been told emotions are bad, don't have them, don't be a pussy, don't be weak, all of that kind of rubbish that we get told as young men, especially athletic young men, that actually emotions are just data.

恐惧在告诉我什么？它提示有重要事项需要准备。我的准备方式正确吗？哪些是我可以放手的？毕竟结果非我能完全掌控。

What does my fear tell me? Okay, it tells me that there's something important to me that I need to prepare for. Am I doing that correctly? And what can I let go of? I can't control over the outcomes.

哪些执念可以放下？在任何情况下都能坚信自己会安然度过？我们帮助人们在这个层面理解自己，包括成长经历的影响，以及本能的生存机制——大脑如何应对外界刺激？如何从被动反应转为主动掌控？

What can I let go of? What can I trust I will be okay, whatever happens? So working with people to kind of understand themselves on that level, their own upbringing, how it's impacting them, and then just their survival system. How does my brain react to all of these triggers in the world? And then how do I take conscious control rather than being a reactive human being?

这才是真正的蜕变。当我们理解'为何会这样反应？理想的应对方式是什么？'人生就会彻底改变。

And that is a game changer. Once we understand why do I react? How do I react? And how would I like to consciously choose to be instead? Life becomes very different for us.

对于想要重塑自我认知的人，第一步是自我觉察。有哪些具体策略可以开始改变那些固有模式呢？

And for someone who's thinking about rewiring or changing their identity, right? The first part is self awareness. What sort of strategies or things can they do to start reshaping some of those patterns?

好的，这是个很棒的问题。你介意我稍微讲解一下吗？

Yeah, great question. Do you mind if I do a little bit of teaching?

请讲，我准备好了。

Go ahead. I'm ready.

好的。那么我是这样看待世界和人类的。我们的大脑分为三个部分。首先是情感部分，我们可以称之为孩童般的部分，反应部分，本能部分。

Okay. Right. So this is how I see the world, and this is how I see human beings. There's three parts to our brain. So there is the emotional part, we could call that the childlike part, the reactive part, the instinctive part.

这是我们大脑反应最快的部分，也是最先做出反应的部分。如果回溯到部落时代，我们正走过一片平原，突然出现一头狮子，我们有四种选择。我们现在仍然会这样反应，因为进化还没跟上世界对我们来说已经不那么危险的事实。这些反应是：逃跑（逃跑反应）、静止不动希望不被发现（冻结反应）、喂食（屈服反应），或者与之对抗（战斗反应）。

And this is the fastest part of our brain and this is the part of our brain that reacts first. So if we put this back into tribal times, we're walking across a plane, a lion comes out, and we've got four choices. And we still respond like this because evolution hasn't caught up with how much less dangerous the world is for us now. So the responses are, we can run away. So that is flight, we can stay still, and hope it doesn't notice us, that's freezing, we can feed it, that's falling, or we can engage it, and we can fight, okay, I'm going to fight and I'm to beat you.

于是我们会有这四种自动反应。我们的大脑会瞬间决定哪种反应能让我们存活。在现代社会，当我们收到'我们需要谈谈'的短信时，我们仍然会这样反应。我们会想：'哦，我要和这个人吵架吗？我需要逃避并忽略这条信息吗？'

So we get these four automatic responses. And that's decided instantly by our brains, bang, whatever it thinks is going to keep us alive in the moment. And in the modern world, we still respond like that when we get a text that says we need to talk. And we go, oh, am I going to have a fight with this person? Do I need to run away and ignore this text?

还是我需要发消息问你：'你还好吗？有什么我能帮你的？'或者我们选择忽略？这就是我们的选择。然后这就会变成一种情绪反应。

Or do I need to message you and say, oh, are you okay? Is there anything I can do for you? Or do we ignore it? And that's our choices. And then with this becomes an emotional response.

所以当我们收到'我们需要谈谈'的短信时，可能是恐惧。你知道吗？也可能是喜悦。比如：'哦，我好久没和这个人联系了。'

So we get that text, we need to talk. It could be fear. You know? It could be joy. You could, oh, I haven't spoken to this person for a while.

我很期待和他们交谈。也可能是愤怒情绪，比如他们想干什么？为什么打扰我？随之而来的还有这种情绪反应。然后我们最好能承认这种情绪，体验它而不是试图隐藏，接受它，产生好奇心，这样就能将情绪从大脑的情感区域转移到负责执行功能的意识区域，让我们能够理性提问。

I'm excited to speak to them. It could be anger like what do they want? Why are they bothering me? And we have this emotional response that goes with it. And then hopefully we acknowledge that, we experience it, we don't try to hide it, we go okay, we get curious and that moves it from this emotive part of our brain to the executive functioning conscious part of our brain where we ask questions.

我很好奇这条信息可能是什么内容。这里我们需要稍加小心，因为我们可能会开始编造故事。这是我经常和客户探讨的问题。比如可能会编造出'这个人对我生气了，我有麻烦了'这样的故事。但我们并不知道实情，因为短信只写了'我们需要谈谈'。

Oh I'm curious what this text might be about. And here we have to be a little bit careful because what we can do is start writing stories. And this is what I work with my clients a lot. So the story might be, oh, this person's upset with me, I'm in trouble. We don't know that because all the text says is we need to talk.

根据我的经验，大多数收到'我们需要谈谈'短信的情况，都是关于对方自己的事，与我无关。他们只是想进行对话，比如'嘿，李，你能帮我个忙吗？'或者'发生了这件事，你怎么看？'通常他们只是想倾诉或寻求支持。但我们的大脑总想保护我们。

And in my experience, most of the times I've got a text saying we need to talk, it's about the other person, nothing to do with me. They just want to have a conversation like, hey, Lee, can you help me with this? Or this happened, what do you think? And they typically just want to vent or get some support. But our brains are desired to protect us.

于是大脑会说'哦，我该怎么保护自己？'实际上作为成年人通常不需要这样。童年时可能需要，但成年后就不必了。作为成年人，我们应该转向有意识的执行思维：'我很好奇接下来会发生什么'，而不是编造故事。

So our brains go, oh, how do I protect myself? And actually, as adults, don't typically need to do that. We do as children, but not as adults. So as adults, what we want to do is move to that conscious executive thought that goes, I'm curious as to what's going to happen. I'm not going to write this story.

我不会编造那些真假难辨的情节。我只会保持好奇，等待时机。然后当见到那个人时我会说：'我在这里，有什么可以帮你的？'最后要注意的是，我们大脑中有个类似计算机记忆的应激反应部分，通常如果我们无法调动意识部分，就会从情绪直接转到这个'计算机'反应。举个例子：开车时有人超车，我们立即竖中指。

I'm not going to make things up that may or may not be true. I'm just going to be curious. I'm going to wait and I'm going to then see that person say, I'm here, how can I support you? And then the last thing is we have this computer memory reactive part of our brain that typically if we can't involve our conscious part of our brain, we go from the emotional part to the computer. So to give an example, we're driving down the road, somebody cuts us up, we flip on the bird.

这是我们存储的情绪反应——'去你的，给你这个！我生气了！'这是瞬间发生的。正如你所说，我们需要重新连接这种反应，这个说法很形象。我们确实是在重建这些神经通路，让反应变成：'我想知道，为什么会这样？'

That is our stored emotional response of, fuck you, Yeah, here you go. I'm angry with you. And it's instant. And again, we want to rewire that as you've said, and that's such a good way to look at it. We are rewiring these neural pathways, that is literally what's happening, to go to, I want to be curious, why did that happen?

那个人遇到麻烦了吗？是他的伴侣吗？他们急着去医院？还是刚被解雇？可能性太多了，而且通常与我无关。他们不是要杀我、惹恼我或毁掉我的一天。

Is that person in trouble? Is their partner? They're rushing them to the hospital if they've just been fired. There could be so many reasons and it's typically not about me. They're not trying to kill me or upset me or ruin my dad.

那么，我该如何转向保持好奇，绕过那种‘在这种情境下我就该这么做’的即时反应？我们要重新训练大脑，用好奇心保持开放心态。辛巴，这很大程度上关乎安全感。只有感到安全，无论发生什么我都能应对，才能在接到电话或收到‘需要谈谈’的短信时保持镇定。

So how can I move to being curious instead and bypass that immediate reactive response of this is what I do in this situation? We want to rewire that to curiosity, to stay open. And a lot of that's about safety, Simba. It's feeling safe that whatever happens, I will be okay. So whatever anybody says to me on that phone call, when they text me and say, need to speak, I'm gonna be okay.

我会安然无恙。人类的问题在于——这也是我们经常遇到的——我们天生渴望联结。追溯到部落穿越平原躲避狮子的年代，被社群排斥就意味着死亡。我们需要集体才能生存。在现代社会，虽然生理需求不同，但情感上我们依然需要归属。

I'm going to be safe. And the problem for human beings is, and this is what comes up a lot for us, is we are hardwired for connection. Because going back again to those tribal walking across the plain lion days, if you were ostracized from the community, you died. You needed community to survive. And in this modern world, we don't need it in the same way physically, but we do need it emotionally.

我们是情感驱动的动物，渴望联结。任何看似威胁我们与群体联结的事物，都会被身体和大脑当作生死存亡的危机来应对。关键是要觉察到：这是我的应激系统，这是我的反应模式。观察战斗、逃跑、僵住和服从这些反应时，通常我们都有自己习惯的应对方式。

We are emotionally driven animals that need connection. So anything that to us feels like it's threatening our connection or our connection to the group and being in the group feels like a life or death threat. And that's how our body and brain respond. So it's just having this awareness of here's my system, here's how I respond. And when we look at that fight, flight, freeze and thorn system, typically we have a way of responding that's for us.

有人会僵住，有人选择逃避。我们都有那种遇到困难就消失的朋友——他们去哪儿了？还有那些总想取悦所有人的讨好型人格，他们就像在给狮子投食。

Some people freeze, some people run away. We've all got those friends that when stuff gets difficult, they disappear. Where did they go? And then the other ones that just want to make everybody happy, they're for it. They're trying to feed the lion.

他们会说‘我能为你做什么？一切都会好的’，必须让所有事都圆满解决。而年轻时的我属于战斗型，不是肢体冲突，而是言语交锋——‘来吧，咱们吵个明白’。这种模式对成年后的我并无益处。

They're like, what can I do for you? It's going to be okay and they need to make everything okay. And then like I was when I was younger, the fight is. And it wasn't so much physically, but I would engage with you verbally and I'd be like, all right, come on then, let's go, let's have that argument. And that doesn't serve me well as an adult.

所以我必须控制这种冲动：这事值得争论吗？与我有关吗？有必要吗？我现在思考的是：如何做才能最高效？

So I have to have control of that. Is this something I want to have an argument about? Is this about me? Is it worth it? And I now think how do I want to be most effective?

真正帮助我的是这个问题：如何成为最高效的自我版本？为了达成对我和对方都有利的结果——这是我始终追求的双赢——我必须先理清自己的状态，再思考如何支持对方。

And that's what really helps me is how do I want to be the most effective version of me and to be the most effective version of me and to get the outcomes I want for me and the other person, so the win for all, which is what I'm always trying to do, I have to go what's going on for me first, and then how can I be there for this other person?

你提到的其中一个概念是心理安全感。是的。这是我们能够自我构建的，还是需要内外结合——既要调整内在心理系统，也需要外部环境来培育这种安全感？

And one of the things you're talking about was psychological safety. Yeah. And is that something that we can build for ourselves, or is it a combination of we can work with our internal, like, mental systems, but we also need to have an environment around to help foster that safety.

两者兼有。但本质上这完全是内在的。因为除非有人用枪指着你或用刀威胁要伤害你，否则你实际处于危险的情况很少。在现代社会，成年人遭遇真正危险的情境其实非常有限。所谓的安全感更多是你对情境的主观解读。

Both. And I mean, really, it's all internal. Because barb being in a situation where somebody's put a gun on you or put a knife on you or threatening to physically harm you, you're likely to be safe. So the amount of situations that we encounter as adult human beings where we're unsafe these days in the modern world is pretty small. So the safety part of it is really your interpretation of the situation.

是你的大脑在喊'我觉得不安全'，而实际上并没有危险。关键是如何承认这种本能情绪反应，然后对内心那个尖叫'这很危险'的小孩说：'我听到你了，但作为成年人，我要告诉你我们会没事的，这其实没那么糟，别人想和我们谈话不代表我们会死'——虽然那个小孩确实这么觉得。最重要的就是我们如何与这种感受建立关系。

It's your brain going, I feel unsafe, when in reality it's not unsafe. So it's how do we acknowledge that initial emotional reaction and then go, okay, I hear you little child inside that screaming this feels unsafe. And actually as an adult, I can give you a little hug and say, no, we're going to be okay and this isn't really that bad and just because somebody wants to have a conversation with us doesn't mean we're going to die. But that's what that little child feels. So it's how we relate to it that is the most important thing.

当然，选择那些较少触发这种系统的环境和群体会让我们更轻松。比如有些人可能在一个老板非常咄咄逼人、整天大吼大叫、动作夸张的工作环境里。对敏感的人来说这就是不安全的环境，而对心理韧性更强或童年没这种经历的人，可能就觉得'这就是鲍勃的作风'而不太受影响。

And then of course choosing to be in environments and groups that trigger that system less is going to make it easier for us. Know we might work in an environment where we've got a boss that's very aggressive and shouts the whole time and is kind of loud and takes up a lot of room and there's a lot of arm movements and stuff. And for somebody that's more sensitive, that's just not going to be a safe environment. For somebody who's maybe more resilient, done more work, or just didn't have that in their childhood, that might not be so threatening. They might be able to just ignore that and go, that's Bob, that's just the way he is.

我不会让那些影响我。所以关键在于了解自己适合什么环境。我是自闭症谱系——最近才确诊的。但其实我一生都知道自己讨厌混乱嘈杂的环境。年轻时跟朋友去夜店，我总是站在边缘观察，享受旁观但不愿参与其中。

I'm not gonna let that land on me. So I think knowing yourself and knowing what environment you can be in and what you can't. I'm autistic, something I've only very recently found out. However, I've known my entire life how that affects me is I don't like being in chaotic environments, loud environments. So as a young man, would go nightclubbing with my friends and I would be standing back out of the way, observing it and enjoying observing it, but I didn't want to be in the middle.

我从来不喜欢在舞池中央、音响旁边或醉酒人群里。当时不知道为什么就是反感。现在根本不会让自己陷入那种场合——你绝不会在夜店找到我，看演唱会也极少，就算去也要坐着舒服地欣赏，前提是音量不能太大。

I didn't really like being in the middle of the dance floor or next to the loudspeakers or around people that were drunk. I didn't know why, but I knew that I didn't like it. Whereas now I don't even put myself in those situations. You're not gonna get me nightclubbing. It'd be rare for me to go to a concert and if I did, wanna sit down and be comfortable and I can enjoy the music as long as it's not too loud.

我可能会戴着耳机或耳塞，通过控制环境来保持舒适。这很大程度上是自我探索的过程——我特意说'探索自我'而非'自我探索'，因为你需要他人协助，无论是治疗师、教练、朋友还是团体。我主持男性成长小组就做很多这方面工作，因为人很难看清自己盲点。

And I'm probably gonna wear some headphones or earplugs and just knowing how to control the environment so that I can feel okay. And so much of it is this exploration of self. And I word that very carefully. I don't say self exploration because you need another person to do it with you, whether it be a therapist, a coach, friends, a group. I run men's groups and we do a lot of great work in those because it's very difficult for us to see the things that we can't see about ourselves.

卡尔·荣格会称这为你的阴影。这是影响你行为的那部分自我，但通常我们不喜欢这些部分，会试图隐藏它们，之所以称为阴影是因为它就像在你身后，是那些让你觉得‘哦，我其实不喜欢那样，我不喜欢自己那方面’的特质。然而它会影响你的行为和看待世界的方式。

Carl Jung would call this your shadow. This is the parts of you that affect your behavior, but typically we don't like them about ourselves and we kind of hide them and it's called the shadow because it's kind of here behind you and it's this bit about you that you're like, oh, I don't really like that. I don't like that about myself. However it affects how you behave and how you see the world.

联系你之前提到的一点，比如我们遇到一个事件，会对其作出反应。当我研究你的一些著作时，你谈到人们在交流时内容与语境的差异，我们往往过于纠结内容而忽略了更广泛的语境。你能多谈谈这个概念吗？我记得你还给它起了个名字。

And connecting one of the things you had said earlier, like we have an event, we have response to it. One of the things when I was studying some of your work was you talk about content versus context when people are communicating and that we tend to get so stuck on the content without considering the broader context. Can you tell us a little bit more about that concept? I believe you have a name for it as well.

是的，谢谢提出这个问题。我非常喜欢这个‘内容与语境’模型，它确实能帮助我们理解世界运转的方式以及我们自身的运作机制。我来举个例子：我们约好共进晚餐，说定六点见面。我六点准时到了，而你六点十五才出现。

So, yeah, thank you for asking that question. So I really like this model content and context, and it really helps us understand how the world works and how we work. So I'm gonna use an example. We agreed to meet for dinner, and we said we're gonna meet at 06:00. And I turn up at 06:00, and you don't turn up until 06:15.

我坐在那里，脑海里编造各种故事：你根本不在乎我。我坐在这儿像个傻子，独自一人。然后你来了却说‘这没什么大不了，我只迟到了十五分钟，路上有点堵’。接着我们就开始争论这十五分钟——这就是内容层面，我们在细节上纠缠不休。

And I'm sitting there, and I'm writing all of these stories in my head about, oh, you don't care. I'm sitting here, I look foolish, I'm by myself, and then you turn up and you go this isn't a big deal, I'm only fifteen minutes late, it's a bit of traffic. Then we start arguing about fifteen minutes. That's the content. So we're arguing about the details.

‘到底算不算迟到十五分钟？’‘这事严不严重？’而实际的语境是：我需要什么？我需要你准时，因为你的迟到让我感觉你不在乎我，觉得我对你不重要。

The is fifteen minutes late or not? Is it a big deal or not? And the actual context is, what did I need? I needed you to be on time because when you weren't on time, it felt like you didn't care for me. It felt like I wasn't important to you.

而你的需求，你的语境可能是：我真的很忙，你根本不知道我有多忙。能来见你对我来说已经很不容易了。家里有17个孩子要照顾，还有一大堆工作要处理。通常我们不会停下来问：作为一个人，你现在真正需要什么？我可能会说：‘嘿，我很好奇’

And the need for you, the context for you might be, well, I'm really busy and you don't know how busy I am. Just for me to be able to see you is like hard for me. And I've got 17 kids at home and I've got all of these work things I've got to do. And typically what we don't do is stop and go, what is the need for you as a human being right now? And I might say, hey, I'm curious.

‘听说你很忙，但到底发生什么事了？迟到十五分钟不像你的作风。怎么了辛巴？’你可能会回答：‘哦，我压力很大，家庭生活和工作都忙得不可开交。’这样我们才能真正展开关于重要事情的对话。

I hear it was busy, but what's going on for you? It's unlike you to be fifteen minutes. Like what's going on Simba? And you might say, oh, I'm feeling lots of stress and home life is really busy and work is really busy. Then we can actually have a conversation about what really matters.

然后你可能会对我说，抱歉我迟到了，兄弟。你最近怎么样？我可能会说，嗯，我现在感觉有点孤独。当你迟到十五分钟时，这让我觉得自己更渺小、更不重要，也让我感到更加孤独。于是我们开始讨论彼此真正的需求，而不是纠结于这些表面的事情。

And then you might say to me, I'm sorry I was late, mate. Like what's going on for you? And I could be like, well, I'm feeling lonely at the moment. And then when you turn up fifteen minutes late, it makes me feel even smaller and less important, and it makes me feel even lonelier. So then we're having conversations about what we actually need rather than focusing on this content.

我们经常看到这种情况。尤其在恋爱关系中，在友谊中，在工作关系中都常见。所以我总是鼓励大家：如果你发现自己为某件事争吵，甚至不明白为何如此生气，通常意味着你需要跳出争执，问问自己——我真正需要的是什么？

And we see this so much. We see it especially in romantic relationships. We see it in friendships. We see it in work relationships. So my encouragement is always if you find yourself arguing about something and you're not even sure why you're so angry about that thing, it usually means you need to step out of that and go, what is it I actually need?

或是对方真正需要什么？我和妻子一直在实践这个方法。我们会为些小事争吵，比如她总忘记关橱柜门，这让我很恼火。当我开始停下来问她‘你怎么了’时，才发现她思维很跳跃。她会说‘我同时想着好多事，不知该先做哪件’，结果中途就忘了关橱柜。

Or what is it the other person actually needs? And me and my wife have really been playing with this because we will have these arguments about silly little things like she's not great at closing cupboards, and I get really annoyed about it. And when I started to stop and go, what's going on for you? Her brain is quite chaotic, and she's like, well, I'm thinking about all these different things, I don't know what to do, and then I forget that halfway through it. So I forget to close the cupboard.

现在我们这样做：我会停下来问‘你的待办清单是什么？需要先完成哪些？’这样她就能平静下来处理清单。知道吗辛巴？其实我自己顺手关个橱柜门就行了。

So then what we do is I stop and I go, okay, what's your list? What do you need to get worked through? And she can then calm down and she can work through a list. And you know what, Simba? I can just close a cupboard door.

当我明白这不是针对我——她不是因懒惰或不在乎才不关门，而是她大脑里有无数待处理的‘标签页’，无法同时处理，且她的思维模式与我不同。我的大脑像清单式：第一件事做完再做第二件。

If I understand it's not about me, she's not leaving it open because she's lazy or she doesn't care. She's leaving it open because she's got a million tabs open in her brain that she wants to deal with, and she can't deal with them all at the same time, and her brain doesn't work like mine. Mine has this list. This is what's number one in the list. Get it done.

而她的大脑是所有这些事同时打开，像这样在不同事项间来回切换。通过这样的对话让我们更理解对方，就能放下许多无关紧要的小事，更专注于作为人类彼此需要什么。

This is what's number two. Hers is, here's all of these things open at the same time. And she's going bang bang bang like this from one to one. So just having those conversations allows us to understand the other person more, and we can let go of so much of these little things that really don't matter and focus more on what do we need from each other as human beings.

这如何与情绪调节或压力反应联系起来？是的，我猜需要某种程度的自我调节才能创造这样的沟通空间。

And how does that tie into emotional regulation or the stress response? Yeah. Because I'm assuming there needs to be some like level of regulation to be able to create that space.

是的。回到我们之前讨论的关于战斗、逃跑、僵持和讨好系统。你迟到了，这个系统就被激活了。我想和你吵架，因为这是我的反应。

Yeah. So going back to what we were talking about before with this fight flight freeze and fawn system. So you turn up late. That system gets activated. I wanna have a fight with you because that's my response.

对吧？让我们争论。而这让我们失去了好奇心。所以我认为，如果我们总是思考'我该如何保持好奇'，而不是'我该如何责备或评判'，'我该如何保持好奇？那个人到底怎么了？'

Right? Let's argue. And that takes us out of curiosity. So I think if we always think about how can I be curious instead of rather than how can I move to blame or to judgment, how can I be curious? What is going on for that other person?

我怎么了？好吧。我感到失望。这意味着什么？哦，我已经习惯了。

What is going on for me? Okay. I feel let down. What does that mean? Oh, I'm used to that.

我父亲从未出席过我的任何活动。哦，这就是为什么这件事如此伤人。对吧？哦，我明白了。所以当别人也这样时，我可能会有过激反应，因为这对我来说已经是旧伤。

My dad never showed up to watch me do anything. Oh, that's why that one hurts so much. Right? Oh, I get it. And then when that happens with other people, I might have an outsized response to that because that is already a wound for me.

所以当我了解哪些事情可能触发我，意识到它们，看到它们时就会想：这个人，我妻子总是支持我。你知道，我的朋友们很擅长支持我。所以如果某个朋友迟到15分钟，那与我无关。我认为我们越能抱着'这不是针对我，而是对方的问题'的心态生活，日子就会越轻松。我年轻时有个最好的朋友，当时他正和这个女孩约会，我们大概都二十出头。

So me knowing the things are likely to trigger me, being aware of them, seeing them and going, this person, my wife always shows up for me. You know, my friends are very good at showing up for me. So if one of my friends fifteen minutes late, it isn't about me. I think the more we can move through the world going, this is not about me, it's about the other person, the easier life becomes. And one of my best mates when we were younger was dating this girl, we must have been in her early twenties.

她当时对我说：我相信每个人都在用自己拥有的资源尽力而为。我可能花了二十年才完全理解这句话。当时它影响了我，但真正领悟可能花了二十年。作为人类，我们都有一个工具箱，有些人的工具箱更大，有些人知道如何使用工具，有些人则不知道。如果我们排除那些恶性自恋者和反社会者（大约占社会的5%），大多数人真的都在尽力而为。

And she said to me at the time, I believe everybody's doing the best they can with what they had. It's probably taken me twenty years to fully understand it. It impacted me at the time, but it's probably taken me twenty years to really get to. We have a toolkit as a human being, and some toolkits are bigger than others, and some people know how to use their tools and don't know how to use their tools. And most people, if we take out the the, you know, the malignant narcissist and the sociopath, which is like five percent of society, most people are really doing the best they can.

他们不是故意要伤害你或让你的生活更糟。他们只是在尽力而为。如果我们持有这种态度，就更容易产生共情：我想知道为什么这个人的工具箱可能有限？我想知道为什么他们不知道如何使用工具？这就是人们让我介入的地方。

They're not deliberately trying to harm you or to make your life worse. They're just doing the best they can. If we have that attitude, it becomes much easier to have empathy of, I wonder why this person's toolkit might be a bit limited. I wonder why they don't know how to use their tools. And this is where people let me come in.

我的工作是扩展你的工具包，并让你成为使用这些工具的专家。

My job is to expand your toolkit and to make you an expert at using those tools.

那么你发现有哪些工具在培养心理韧性和提升表现方面特别有效？

And what is one tool or maybe a few tools that you've found to be very effective in developing mental resilience as well as achieving higher performance?

其中一个工具与我们今天讨论的内容密切相关，叫做'线上与线下'模型。我从意识领导力小组获得的这个模型。如果你是领导者，应该读读《意识领导的15项承诺》这本书，我认为对领导者来说非常有益。

So one is tied into what we've been talking about a lot today. So it's a model called above and below the line. I got it from the conscious leadership group. If if you're a leader, you should read the book, the 15 commitments of conscious leadership. I think it's a great book for leaders.

这个工具的核心是定位自己处于'线下'状态——也就是我之前提到的战斗、逃跑、冻结和讨好反应，以及我们的情绪层面。而当我们思考'线上'时，则涉及认知部分。它为我们描绘了从最初的本能反应向有意识选择转变的过程。需要明确的是，'线下'状态本身并不是坏事。

And this tool is locating yourself below the line is what I was talking about with the, the fight, flight, freeze, and fawn response, and then our emotions, and then that cognitive part, if we think about it above the line. So it gives us this picture of we're moving. We're moving from our initial reactive response to a place of conscious choice. And below the line isn't bad. And I really want to be very clear about that.

我们永远都会有这些'线下'的自动、本能、不成熟的反应，这是大脑的固有设计。关键是如何停下来？就像你说的，先进行情绪定位，这就是调节的部分，对吧？

We will always have these below the line, automatic, instinctual, immature responses. That's just the way our brains are designed. And then it's like, how do I stop? As you said, locate myself emotionally. And this is the regulation part of it, right?

我正在感受这种情绪，并保持好奇——而不是认为感受是坏的、要消除它们。而是去感受：这告诉我什么？现在意味着什么？我希望能选择成为怎样的状态？

I'm feeling this and be curious instead of like feelings are bad, get rid of those. It's like, feel this. What does it tell me? What does it mean now? How would I like to choose to be?

这就是情绪上向'线上'移动的过程。我们的大脑喜欢'我正在移动'的意象：我正移动到'线上'，移动到选择状态，保持好奇心，认识到这不是针对我个人，不是世界在迫害我。我能掌控自己的思想、感受和反应。

And that is emotionally moving above the line. And our brains like thinking of I'm moving somewhere. So I'm moving above the line to choice, to being curious, to realizing that this isn't about me, this isn't the world doing it to me. I have control. I have control of my own thoughts, feelings, my reactions.

我发现那确实是个强大的工具。我正在思考在这种情境下还有什么其他有用的工具。

So that I find that a really powerful tool. I'm trying to think of another one that would be useful in this context.

我认为

I think

只是接受世界并非针对你。我经常看到这种情况。人们总觉得这些事是冲我来的，但极少有事情是冲我们来的。我们可能是某些事的接收者，但通常不是世界在针对我们。这只是世界或我们家庭系统中发生事件的副产品，并非刻意为之。

just accepting the world isn't doing it to you. And I see this so often. People think these things are happening to me and very rarely are things happening to us. We might be a recipient of something, but typically it's not the world happening to us. It's just a byproduct of what is happening in the world and or what is happening in our family systems, and it's not deliberate.

所以一旦我们开始接受这点，并且作为成年人，我们会没事的。无论发生什么，如果我们秉持'无论发生什么我们都会没事'的前提。而有助于此的是处理我们编造的那些故事。比如回到有人发短信说'我们需要谈谈'的例子，我最初编的故事是'我做错了什么？'所以我让人们做——希望你不介意脏话——但这总能逗人发笑。

So once we start to accept that, and also as an adult, we're going to be okay. Whatever happens, if we take the premise to whatever happens, we're gonna be okay. And what can help with this is working on these stories that we create. So if we go back to the example of somebody texts me, we need to talk, my initial story is, what have I done wrong? So, I get people to do, and I hope you don't mind swearing, but it always makes people laugh.

我让他们写'去他妈的日记'。重点是把所有这些故事写进日记里。把所有负面想法写进去，然后 literally 扔到一边说'去他妈的'。这就是我在放手。我希望它完全区别于感恩日记（这也是很好的做法），或想法日记、灵感日记。

I get them to do a fuck it journal. And the point of this is you're gonna write all of these stories in this journal. You're gonna write all of these bad thoughts in this journal and literally throw it to one side and say, fuck it. That's I'm letting go of that. And I want it to be very separate from, say, an appreciation journal, which is also a really good thing to do, or a thoughts journal, an ideas journal.

这本日记专门记录我脑子里所有糟糕的念头、无益的故事、当我们谈论神经重塑时的旧模式。这对我们练习很有好处。再分享点心理学知识：向朋友倾诉或与治疗师合作之所以有效，是因为当我们说话时——特别是情绪激动时，当我们处于孩童般状态，从大脑情绪区域出发时——当我们将其 verbalize 或写下来时，大脑认知部分会听到或读到这些内容。

This is, here's all the bad crap in my mind. Here's all the unhelpful stories. Here's all the old pattern in when we talk about this neural rewiring, and it's really good for us to exercise it. So another little bit of psychology teaching. The reason why what I do, why venting to a friend, working with a therapist works so well is because when we are talking, especially in an emotional state, and we're coming from that childlike place, that emotive place, that emotive part of our brain, when we verbalize it or we write it down, then the cognitive part of our brain either hears it or reads it when we read it back to ourselves.

通常我们会发现'哦，没我想的那么糟'。我确定你经历过，听众们也经历过。我有过这种体验：你向朋友倾诉，讲述故事和处境，他们只是倾听，说完后你会觉得'天啊，现在感觉好多了'。

And what typically happens is we go, oh, it's not as bad as I thought. So I'm sure you've had this. I'm sure people listen to have had it. I have this. You vent to a friend, you tell them the story, you tell them the situation and they just listen and you finish it and you go, oh my God, I feel so much better now.

因为大脑的认知部分听到这个后会想，哦，原来没我想的那么糟。或者当你开始处理时，你会意识到其实已经有解决方案了，现在知道该怎么做了。所以只要给自己机会，我们其实很擅长这种自我调节。另一个非常有效的工具就是运动。当我们情绪激动或感到压力时，哪怕是低强度运动，甚至是剧烈运动，只要动起来就能有效释放压力。

Because the cognitive part of your brain has heard this and gone, oh, it's not as bad as I thought it was. Or you start to process it and you go, actually, I've got some solutions here and now I know what I need to do. So we actually are pretty good at doing that self regulation if we give ourselves the opportunity to do it. And another tool that's really good is exercise. So when we're feeling emotional, we're feeling stressed, just some good low level exercise or even intense exercise, but just some exercise can really help release it.

我们的身体天生具备这种能力。动物身上就能看到这点。我养了一只70磅重的德国牧羊混血哈士奇，运动能力超强，是只很有趣的狗。我们去狗公园时，它喜欢和其他狗玩耍，尤其爱追逐其他狗。但有时会闹得有点过火，可能会被其他狗教训，或是发生小争执。

Our bodies are designed to do this. You see this with animals. So I've got a 70 pound German chippered husky, super athletic, know, like fun dog. And we'll go to the dog park and she likes playing with other dogs and especially likes chasing other dogs. But sometimes it gets a bit fractious and they might correct her or there's a little bit of a disagreement.

这时它会站起来走开，然后抖动身体。这就是它在实实在在地抖落压力。我们人类也能这样做。可以通过散步或做些低强度重复性任务，比如坐着叠衣服、劈柴、洗碗等。所有这些活动都能帮助身体处理情绪压力。

She'll get up, she'll walk away and she shakes her body. And that is her literally shaking off the stress. And we can do that as humans too. And we can do that by things like going for a walk or low level repetitive tasks, you know, sitting there, folding the laundry, chopping some wood, doing the washing up. All of these things just help our bodies process that emotional stress.

所以请确保你有某种运动习惯，无论是跑步、散步、去健身房、游泳、骑自行车，只要能让你身体动起来都行，非常有用。人们总把压力看作坏事，其实不然。以运动为例，压力正是让身体进步的动力。没有一定程度的压力，身体就无法产生生理适应，让你变得更好、更强壮、更敏捷。大脑也是如此。

So make sure that you have some kind of exercise practice, whatever it is, running, walking, going to the gym, swimming, riding a bike, something that gets your body moving, super helpful. People see stress as a bad thing, and it's not. So if we take it in the sporting text, context, stress is what gets your body to improve. So without putting your body under a certain amount of stress, there can be no physiological adaptation to make you better, fitter, stronger, faster, whatever. And it's the same for our brains.

情绪压力促使我们成长。它让我们变得更熟练、更清醒。问题在于当压力过大且无法恢复时。运动也是这样。如果每天训练十小时，最终你会变得虚弱，因为身体无法在训练间隙恢复，你会越来越疲惫。

Emotional stress causes us growth. It helps us become more skilled, helps us become more aware. The issue is when it becomes overwhelming and we can't recover from it. Same with sports. If you trained ten hours a day every day, eventually you become less strong, less fit because your body can't recover between each training sessions, you become more and more fatigued.

情绪压力完全同理。我们需要找到处理压力的方法——宣泄、运动、休息、度假，暂时离开当前环境，之后就能满血归来。通常这时我们在压力下工作的能力上限就会提高。这就是高效人士的厉害之处，他们主动置身于充满压力的环境。

Exactly the same for emotional stress. And what we have to do is find those ways to process the stress, venting, exercise, rest, holidays, vacations, get us out of our environment, and then we can come back. And what typically happens is our ability, ceiling to work under stress, to under pressure goes up. And that's what high performers are so good at. They put themselves in these situations where there is stress, there is pressure.

他们从中学习、适应、成长，稍作休整后通过运动恢复状态，然后再次迎接挑战。这个能力上限就这样不断提升。这也是我们培养韧性的方式——主动置身压力环境，并学会在这样的环境中生存。

They learn from it, they adapt, they grow, they take some rest, they process it, they do some sport, they come back and they do it again. And the ceiling keeps raising. And this is also how we get resilience. We put ourselves in these positions of stress. We learn that we're going to live.

我们的战斗、逃跑、僵住、恐惧、讨好系统会运作，哦，我没死。我要活下去。我们不断告诉自己一切都会好起来的。

Our fight flight freeze fear, fawn system goes, oh, I didn't die. I'm gonna live. And we keep teaching ourselves that we're gonna be okay.

听到这个让我想起。你听说过《反脆弱》这本书吗？

It reminds me just hearing that. Have you heard of the book antifragile?

是的。对。没错。

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

对。我刚才就在想，这让我联想到读那本书时的感受，反脆弱性也是类似的概念——在充分休息的前提下，压力能让你变得更强大。没有压力我们就无法适应。

Yeah. And I'm like just thinking and just reminded me of reading that book that it's also a similar concept of antifragility in which stress with adequate rest can make you much, much stronger. You you can't we cannot adapt without stress.

知道吗？我们大脑和身体的运作方式决定了我们需要压力来适应。现代观念总说压力有害，其实不然。真正有害的是如果我们不给自己适应压力的空间和工具，问题才会开始。

You know? The way our brains and our bodies work is we need stress to adapt. So the the modern concept is, oh, stress is bad. Stress is not bad. What's bad is if we give ourselves the room and the tools to adapt from it, that's where the issues start.

这太棒了。想了解更多关于你的课程服务或个人资料的人，该去哪里找你呢？

This is so amazing. For people that want to learn more about your programs, your services, to read more about you, where can they find you?

我尽量简化渠道，辛巴。直接谷歌搜索Leap Ovi就能找到我：Instagram和LinkedIn上的leapovi账号，leapovi.com官网。虽然今天没提到，但我想特别分享的是我运营男性成长小组，我认为这尤其重要。

I keep it really simple, Simba. So you'll find me just by Googling Leap Ovi. It's Leap Ovi on Instagram, leapovi.com, Leap Ovi on LinkedIn, and I'm pretty active on LinkedIn and Instagram. We didn't mention it today, but one thing I wanna share with people is I run men's groups. I think this is particularly important.

男性自杀率正在上升。相比过去，现在的男性更加孤独，这种情况在科技互联网和社交媒体时代只会变得更糟。所以我运营着低成本男性互助小组。如果你对此感兴趣，请联系我。我只是希望能帮上忙。

Male suicide rates are going up. Men are much more lonely than they were previously, and this is only getting worse in the technological internet age and the age of social media. So I run low cost men's groups. So if you're interested in that, reach out to me. And I just want to be of service.

如果有人想聊聊，非常欢迎联系我。如果我不适合你，我会为你推荐合适的人选。如果你是某个组织，想要培养更好的领导者或成为更好的领导者；如果你是创始人，发现自己难以放手控制权，难以理解团队行为方式并与之建立更好联系，我很乐意前来协助。

If anybody wants to talk, they're very welcome to reach out to me. If I'm not the right person for you, I will point you in the direction of somebody who does. And if you're an organization out there that wants to have better leaders and wants to be a better leader, if you're a founder that's finding yourself struggling to let go of control and struggling to understand why your team behave the way they do and to connect with them better, I'd love to come and help.

如果有一个关键收获，你希望每位听众从这次访谈中带走，那会是什么？

And if there's one key takeaway you'd like every single listener to leave this, interview with, what would that be?

你会没事的。要知道，世界并不像你脑海中描绘的那般危险。作为成年人，你会好起来的。如果你能把'这对我有什么危害'的思维转变为'我对这个很好奇，这对我有什么潜力'，世界就会真正成为你的游乐场，变得有趣得多。

You're gonna be okay. You know, the world is not as dangerous as your mind paints it to be. As an adult, you're going to be okay. And if you can switch from how is this going to harm me to, oh, I'm curious about this, what's the potential here for me? The world is becoming literally your playground and so much more enjoyable.

我举个简单例子。我曾合作过（现在仍在合作）一位公司创始人，他极其聪明。过去他把创始人的领导职责视为必须完成的任务，而非自愿选择。他将领导工作视为阻碍个人和公司成功的绊脚石，因为要应付这些人。通过我们的合作，他的观念发生了巨大转变——'我有机会做这件事'。

And I'll give just a little example. I had a founder of a company that I work with, or I still work with, incredibly smart man. He used to look at being a founder as the leadership part of this was this thing that he had to do, not that he wanted to do. And he related to the leadership as the thing that got in the way of him being successful and his company being successful because he had to deal with these people. And through our work together, he had this big shift to, I get to do this.

我有机会成为公司领导者。不是每个人都有这种机会，这是种特权。我有机会与杰出人才共事，了解并关爱这些人，参与培养他们，见证他们在其他公司发展事业并获得成功。当他意识到自己在帮助他人成长和成功中扮演着角色，并将之视为特权而非负担时，这种转变彻底改变了他的人生。

I get to be the leader of a company. Not many people get to do that. It's a privilege. I get to work with incredible human beings, and I get to know and love these people, and I get to be part of nurturing them and watching them go on to have careers in other companies and be successful. And that switch where he realized he had a part in helping people grow and he had a part in their success and that he could relate to it as a privilege rather than as a burden has completely changed his life.

短短几个月内，这个家伙从苦苦挣扎、几乎厌恶自己的工作状态转变为热爱并蓬勃发展。所以我认为关键在于我们如何看待这些事情，辛巴。我们可以选择将其视为不适、困难、痛苦，也可以选择将其视为挑战、乐趣和礼物。

I mean, this guy in the space for a couple of months went from really struggling and almost hating what he was doing to loving it and thriving. So I think a lot of it is within us as to how we relate to these things, Simba, and we get to choose how we relate to it. And we can relate to it as being uncomfortable, difficult, painful, or we can relate to it as being a challenge, a joy, a gift.

非常独到的见解。Lee，非常感谢您抽出时间分享您的观点和见解，这些对我们非常有帮助。我自己也记下了不少心得，日后可以借鉴。非常感谢。

Amazing perspective. Lee, thank you so much for your time and your perspective and your insights. They were very, very helpful. And I know I was taking some mental notes as well for me to use for myself. Thank you so much.

这是我的荣幸，Simba，希望观众们也能从中有所收获。

My pleasure, Simba, and I hope the audience gets something from this.

感谢您的收听。请继续通过收听我们的其他节目来强化您的思维。

Thank you for tuning in. Continue strengthening your mind by listening to our other episodes.