泰勒·斯威夫特是在恃强凌弱吗？

本期节目由我们的好朋友Sky赞助播出。

This episode is brought to you by our good friends at Sky.

无论是斯科塞斯与德尼罗的组合、英国人排队的情景，还是格伦·鲍威尔慢镜头入画的画面，有些事物天生就该成对出现——就像Sky与Netflix的强强联手。

Now whether it's, Scorsese and De Niro, Brits and a queue, or Glenn Powell and a slow motion entrance into frame, some things are just better together, and Sky and Netflix do just that.

每月仅需15英镑，就能在Sky Essential电视套餐中同时享有两大顶尖内容平台。原创剧集如《伦敦黑帮》《豺狼之日》来自Sky，《鱿鱼游戏》《星期三》等全球爆款则由Netflix提供——一站式享受，账单统一结算，堪称豪华阵容。

Two heavyweight storytellers side by side on the Sky Essential TV package for just £15 a month, all in one place and on one bill. Call it the full ensemble. Sky Originals bringing gangs of London and the day of the Jackal, Netflix delivering global obsessions like Squid Game and Wednesday.

若再加上Sky Atlantic、Discovery Plus等90多个频道，这样的节目编排足以重塑你的一周作息，让每个平凡夜晚都变成视听盛宴。

Add Sky Atlantic, Discovery Plus, and more than 90 other channels to that list, and you've got the kind of lineup that bends the week around it, turning ordinary evenings into events.

Sky与Netflix联合套餐每月15英镑。精品剧集、海量选择、完整阵容，尽在一处。

Sky and Netflix together for £15 a month. Premium shows, endless choice, and a lineup that feels complete, all in one place.

请访问sky.com即刻开通。需配备Sky电视及第三方订阅服务。Sky Essential电视套餐包含精选Sky频道，仅限18岁以上英国本土、海峡群岛及马恩岛用户。

Visit sky.com to start. Requires relevant Sky TV and third party subscriptions. Sky Essential TV includes a selection of Sky channels, 18 plus UK channel islands, and Isle Of Man only.

大家好，欢迎收听本期《娱乐余韵》，我是玛丽娜·海德。

Hello, and welcome to this episode of the rest is entertainment with me, Marina Hyde.

还有我，理查德·奥斯曼。你好，玛丽娜。

And me, Richard Osman. Hello, Marina.

你好，理查德。最近怎么样？

Hello, Richard. How are you?

我还好。是的，不算太糟。你呢？

I'm alright. Yeah. I'm not too bad. How are you?

非常好。现在有个大新闻

Very well. Now, the big news

哦豁，继续说吧。

Uh-oh. Go on.

是互联网又崩溃了吗？因为泰勒·斯威夫特刚发了新专辑。

Is the Internet broken again? Because Taylor Swift just released a new album.

泰勒·斯威夫特，我一直在谷歌搜索她。她是位歌手。我们的第一个话题将围绕两位主导互联网的人物展开——主动为之的泰勒·斯威夫特，与被动卷入的妮可·基德曼。所以我们要讨论如何搞崩网络，以及如何在无意间做到这一点。

Taylor Swift, who I've been googling her. She's a singer. Our first item is going to be about about two people who dominated the Internet. Taylor Swift, who wanted to, and Nicole Kidman, who didn't want to. So we're talking about how to break it and how you can break it without wanting to.

是的。我们还将讨论音乐剧，有人认为音乐剧在百老汇正变得完全不可行。这对我们伦敦西区剧院产生了巨大冲击，所以我们要看看戏剧界的趋势。

Yes. We are also going to talk about musicals are some people think musicals are becoming completely unviable on Broadway. That has a big blowback onto our West End, so we're gonna look at the trend trends in theater land.

戏剧界的趋势

Trends in theater

是的，请讲。关于现场体验，这种体验确实。这种体验正在蓬勃发展。我对此有很多理论解释原因，我知道你也是。

land. Yes, please. About live experiences, which Yeah. Which are only on the up. I've got lots of theories to as to why, and I know you have too.

没错。剧院在过去五十年里主要靠音乐剧赚了很多钱，但自疫情以来，百老汇只有三部音乐剧实现了盈利。

Yeah. Exactly. Theatres essentially made so much money from musicals over the last fifty years, but only three since the pandemic have made a profit on Broadway.

我们还要讨论

And we're also going to talk about

会很有趣的。好吧，你来主讲，我来听。

will be fun. You well, you're gonna talk about it. I'm gonna listen.

我接下来四天要密集报道梅尔·吉布森。他已经开始拍摄《基督复活》，这是二十多年前《基督受难记》万众期待的续集。梅尔·吉布森已开机拍摄，这部会比原作更宏大、更离奇，我们将深入探讨。

I am I've got a tight four days on Mel Gibson. He we've He has started filming The Resurrection of the Christ, the long awaited follow-up to The Passion of the Christ from two decades, more than two decades ago. Mel Gibson has started filming it. It's gonna be bigger, more outlandish than the original, and we're gonna do a deep dive on that.

太棒了。现在我们可以谈谈泰勒·斯威夫特了吗？当然可以。那么，如何才能成为每周都被众人热议的人物呢？泰勒·斯威夫特和妮可·基德曼这周就做到了。

Superb. Now shall we talk about Taylor Swift? Let's. So how do you become the person who everyone talks about in any given week? Taylor Swift and Nicole Kidman have managed it this week.

泰勒·斯威夫特的新专辑《马戏人生》周五发行了。我要直言不讳地说，我觉得这张专辑太棒了。要知道，泰勒成功的秘诀之一就是她持续推出非常非常优质的音乐，而且产量相当高。但她能如此非凡地主导话题讨论，简直不可思议。我是说，几乎找不到一个像她这样的人——除了我妈可能没看法——能让所有人都有话可说。

Taylor Swift's new album came out on Friday, the life of a showgirl. I'm gonna come off the fence and say, I think it's amazing. And, you know, one of the secrets behind Taylor Swift's success is she keeps releasing really, really good music, and she releases quite a lot of it. But the way that she dominates the conversation is so extraordinary. I mean, it's almost impossible to think of somebody who everybody, apart from maybe my mom, has an opinion on.

就算我去问我妈：'你知道泰勒·斯威夫特吗？'她也会说：'哦，知道啊。'我会说：'跟我说说她。'然后她会说：'我...我就知道听说过她。'

Even my if I went to said to my mom, do you know Taylor Swift? She'd go, oh, yeah. I know Taylor Swift. I'd say, tell me about her. And she'd say, I I I just know I heard of her.

巡演过。是个歌手。我觉得她是个歌手。这张专辑我觉得相当棒。她又找回了马克斯·马丁合作。

Did a tour. She's a singer. I think she's a singer. This album is I think it's rather wonderful. She's gone back to Max Martin.

他创作的美国冠军单曲数量在历史上排名第二，仅次于——

He's written the second most amount of US number ones of anyone in history behind

保罗·麦卡特尼。

Paul McCartney.

对，保罗·麦卡特尼。不过听着，马克斯还有时间追赶呢。我肯定之前推荐过，《热单工厂里的歌曲机器》这本书很棒，讲的就是马克斯·马丁和丹尼斯·波彭那代瑞典创作人，以及他们如何发掘了爱司基地乐队等等。如果你感兴趣的话，这真是部精彩的口述历史。

Paul McCartney. Yeah. But, listen, there's still time. And I'm sure I've recommended this before, but the song machine inside the hit factory is an amazing book which is all about Max Martin and Dennis Poppen, that that generation of of Swedish writers and who discovered Ace of Bass and all that. It's just it's a really good kind of oral history of of of all of that stuff if you if you are interested.

如今马克斯·马丁堪称过去三十年来最伟大的幕后作曲家——甚至已不能算'幕后'了。和许多杰出作曲家一样，他来自瑞典。他创作了大量后街男孩的作品，为布兰妮制作了三张专辑，还与他的搭档Shellback（对，就是那位）合作。

Now Max Martin is the great unsung it's not even unsung these days, the great unsung songwriter of the last thirty years. Like so many incredible songwriters, he's Swedish. He he can knock out did lots of Backstreet Boys stuff. He's done lots of Britney, and he did three albums with her. He did and Shellback, who's who's his Yeah.

Shellback是他稍年轻的合作伙伴。他们共同打造了1989年的《Rare》和《Reputation》这两张标志性流行专辑。她从乡村歌手转型，立志成为流行巨星。

Slightly younger collaborator. So together, they did Rare did in 1989. They did Reputation, which were her big pop albums. So she'd come from being a country star. She wants to be a pop star.

于是她请来马克斯·马丁团队制作这些专辑。此后她又推出几张更具内省色彩、更偏向独立风格的专辑。去年巡演期间——注意这个秘密——当所有人都在惊叹巡演收入和曝光度时，

Calls on Max Martin. They knock out those albums. Since then, she's done a few with slightly more tortured albums, a bit more kind of introspective, a bit more indie. And now I think while she was on the tour last year so while everyone again, this is the secret. While everyone's saying, god, isn't it amazing the money she's making on this tour and the publicity she's getting?

她却想着：'没错，但我还要去瑞典录制这张惊艳的新专辑。我已经写好了大量歌曲，马上就要进棚录制。巡演一结束就有新作品接档，这才是统治乐坛的方式。'这张专辑确实精彩绝伦。

She's going, yeah. But by the way, I'm also, like, going to Sweden to record this incredible album. I've also written a load of songs, and I'm now gonna record them. So the second this finishes, I've got something else to come out, and that's how that's how you dominate, I think. But this album is absolutely wonderful.

你有认真听过这张专辑吗？

Have you have you spent any time listening to it?

我听了。是的。我觉得它不如早期作品那么出色。但整件事让我着迷。

I have listened to it. Yes. I I don't think it's as good as those earlier ones. No. But I find it so fascinating.

不得不说她的歌词创作始终在线。虽然部分音乐编排我不太感冒，但整张专辑的概念——她构建的整个艺术世界——现在想来实在令人着迷。我都不知该如何形容，这已经超越了音乐本身的意义。

I mean, it's almost I have to say that, lyrically, she always delivers. I don't I know some of the music I'm I'm not I wasn't so crazy about, but I have to say that it's it's or it's I don't wanna say it's bigger than music because what what should be bigger than music or art or anything? But as a concept, the the her of it all is so fascinating to you now.

有些事情可以超越音乐本身。

Things can be bigger than music.

是啊，想象一下，比音乐更宏大。

Yeah. Suppose. Bigger than

托尼·B。

Tony B.

没错。我是说，她现在简直是个现象级人物。我现在把她看作创造了自己宇宙的人，那里充满了相互关联的民间传说、各种彩蛋，还有高度狂热的粉丝群体。其实我在听的时候意识到，最让我联想到的是——实际上唯一能与之相提并论的娱乐IP就是《哈利·波特》。

Yeah. Yes. I mean, she's such a phenomenon now. Think I of her now as someone who's created their own universe where there are all these interconnecting piece of folklore and and and and Easter eggs and, like, a hyper engaged fandom. And I and I realized, actually, when I was listening to it, that the thing she reminded me most of, actually, the only other entertainment property she's remotely like is Harry Potter.

就是这样...对对对，懂我意思吗？这是个拥有狂热粉丝的庞然大物。

It's this but but but Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Know what I mean? It's this huge thing with hyper engaged fans.

所以有很多内容需要你细细揣摩，猜测接下来会发生什么。人们创作自己的内容，在这个庞大的粉丝圈中为之疯狂。尽管她只是一个人（这相当不容易），但我觉得她就像这样的存在。不过

So lots of stuff where you're trying to read into things and see what might come next. The idea of people making their own stuff and kind of fanning out for it in this huge kind of diaspora of fandom. And I I think of her as something like that, even though she is a single person, which is quite difficult. But

有趣的是，如果你思考这张专辑的独特性——顺便说，很多人并不喜欢泰勒·斯威夫特的音乐。所以如果你听了不喜欢完全没问题。我个人喜欢，但它确实不适合所有人。不过我觉得她是个值得讨论的话题，而主要讨论点之一就是那张专辑——它就像1975年或1981年任何一张专辑那样经典，12首歌的体量。

Well, funnily enough, if you think about the singularity of this album and by the way, lots of people don't like Taylor Swift's music. So so if you listen, that's that's absolutely fine. I I do like it, but I can it is definitely not for everyone, I do think she's interesting to talk about. And one of the main things she's interesting to talk about is that album, really, it's like any album would have been in 1975 or 1981. It's 12 tracks.

是的。你知道，黑胶唱片每面有六首歌。这就是我们几乎整个音乐史以来一直在处理的情况。总共就只有12首歌。

Yes. You know, on the vinyl, it's six tracks on each side. So this is what we've been dealing with for almost the whole of music history. It's just all it is is 12 songs.

嗯，上一张专辑长得离谱。

Well, the last one was incredibly long.

没错。我是说，她确实做到了。但将其扩展至主导文化层面——这部电影上周末在影院上映，彻底碾压了所有传统好莱坞大片，人们还愿意花钱去看。如你所说，她在歌曲中埋下各种隐晦线索，实际上是对Charlie XCX的浪漫告白。这你怎么看？

Yes. I mean, she's she she did that. But to take that and to branch that out into dominating culture so the movie, which released in cinemas over the weekend and blew every single traditional Hollywood movie absolutely out of the park, and people are, you know, paying to go and see that. As you say, she puts all sort of cryptic things into her songs, is actually romantic about Charlie x c x. I ask you.

我认为是的，但也可能

I think it is, But I could be

错了。有意思吧？她是那种能摧毁一切的人吗？她能向下打压吗？她以前在这方面拿捏得非常谨慎。

wrong this. Interesting, isn't it? Is she someone who is so who destroys literally everything? Can she punch down? She's threaded that needle very carefully before.

说她塑造了受害者形象可能太过粗俗，但她总让人感觉很有共鸣，仿佛坏事总找上她——尽管她是世界上最出名、在诸多方面最不接地气的人。现在针对Charli XCX，我在想她还能这样向下打压吗？

This is too crass to say she sort of presented a victim narrative, but she has always felt really relatable and, like, bad things happen to her, even though she's the most famous person in the world and the least relatable in lots of ways. Having a go at Charli XCX, does it still feel like you're I wonder if she can can punch down in that way?

所以她处于那个位置。她和Travis Kelce在一起，正在进行盛大的Era's巡回演唱会，规模空前。她说自己当时状态极佳，就想做一张流行大碟——这就是她的目标。

So she's in a position there. She was, you know, she was with Travis Kelce. She's doing that Big Era's tour, was absolutely massive. And she, you know, she says, I was just in a great place, and I wanted to make a big pop album. That's the thing that I wanted to do.

她希望随时展现真实的自我，这正是马克斯·马丁的故事如此迷人的原因。这位瑞典制作人常说，我从小听美国音乐长大，但听不懂歌词内容。我只是被词语的韵律打动——就像《Hit Me Baby One More Time》的创作，他根本不知道这句英文不是‘再给我打电话’的意思，单纯觉得发音很带感。

She wants to make a representation of who she is at any given time, which is why the Max Martin thing is fascinating. So Max Martin, because he's Swedish, he always said, like, I grew up listening to American music, but I didn't know what the words were. So I just heard the sounds of the words, and that's always, you know, hit me baby one more time. That's Max Martin because he didn't know that didn't mean ring me up again. He just said he just he just thought it sounded good.

与我们合作过的另一位流行巨星罗宾这样评价马克斯·马丁：'他擅长破解密码般的创作公式，追求极致效率'。以泰勒·斯威夫特为例——虽然她坚持原创，但足够明智地与能提升作品的人合作——当你想表达当下心境而非深刻自省或社会议题时，自然会敲响他的门。据说他们初次合作有个趣闻，不知真假...

And Robin, who's one of the other great pop stars that we worked with, he said a thing about Max Martin, he says it's all about cracking a code. It's all about being as efficient as possible. So if you're Taylor Swift, who, by the way, does write her own stuff but is smart enough to then collaborate with people who can make it different or make it better, and you are in a great mood, and you are not particularly wanting to make something that is deeply introspective or is about the state of the world, but it's just about, you know, who you are in any given time, then that's whose door you knock on, I think. The first time they ever worked together there's a tale. Don't know if it's apocryphal.

传闻在泰勒到来前，马克斯·马丁正巧在场。有人敲门自称是泰勒老友请求等候，初来乍到的马丁答应了。后来泰勒到场发现，这人其实是前男友的朋友，只得将其请走。

But Max Martin is there just before Taylor gets there, and the guy knocks on the door and says, oh, I'm a old friend of Taylor's. Can I come in and wait? And Matt Martin is his first day. He goes, yeah. I guess I guess you can come in.

初入职场的马丁连连道歉：'非常抱歉，我不该贸然让他进来。英语不是我的母语，当时太紧张了。'泰勒安慰道：'天啊，完全不用在意。'

So he comes in. Anyway, Taylor comes in, and it's clear he's not an old friend. It's clear he's a friend of an ex boyfriend of hers, and they have to get rid of him. Anyway, Max Martin is it's his first day he's working, so he's incredibly apologetic. And he's like, I'm so sorry.

马丁接着问：'说说那个前男友的事吧？'泰勒讲述过程中突然脱口而出：'但马克斯你听着，我们永远永远不可能复合了'——这句话竟成了他们传奇合作的起点。

I shouldn't have done that. I didn't I'd sort of because it's not my first language, and I just I just got nervous. I'm sorry. She said, oh god. Don't worry about it at all.

（继续上条）这段对话直接催生了《We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together》的创作。

And he says, what what tell me about this ex boyfriend. So she's talking about him. And then and then she says, and you but you know what, Max? We are never ever ever getting back together. And that was the start of their their collaboration.

太棒了！真希望这个故事是真的。

I love that. Yeah. I don't want it to be apocryphal.

但我觉得，如果你想听一张出色的流行专辑，这确实是一张出色的流行专辑。她总是处于工作状态，我们之前讨论过这一点，正如我所说，她正在进行这场大型巡演，这本身就是持续忙碌的状态，同时她还要处理各种事务。比如在演出间隙，她会飞往瑞典。她飞去瑞典与Shellback和Max Martin合作，创作这些作品时她就知道发行时间。距离《Tortured Poets Department》才过去一年。

But I think, you know, if you want a great pop album, it is a great pop album. But the way that she is, a, always on, which we've talked about, as I say, she was doing this massive tour, which is already always on, and at the same time, she was really taking care of business. Like, in between shows, she was flying over to Sweden. She's flying over to Sweden to work with Shellback and Max Martin and write this stuff she knew when it was coming out. It's only a year since Tortured Poets Department.

过去的流行明星可能要等三四年才会发行下一张专辑，但她清楚自己必须时刻保持存在感。她知道必须持续为这台机器提供养分。她明白粉丝们会完成所有的营销工作。

Pop stars way back when would have wait waited three or four years before they had to release the next scene, but she's she's aware she has to be ever present. She's aware she constantly has to feed the machine. She's aware that the fans will will do all the marketing

为她。现在这台机器。没有人能真正跟上她的节奏，而她如此自然地适应了所有新兴平台，无论是Instagram还是TikTok。我觉得有趣的是，尽管她是数字原生代，这些平台让居家的人们感觉与更广阔的世界相连——就像音乐一直以来的作用，就像人们坐在卧室里听歌那样。但她同样深刻理解现场演出这种集体体验。

for her. The machine now. There's no nobody has really can really keep pace with her, and she has adapted so kind of seamlessly to all the different platforms as they've come along, whether it be Insta or TikTok. What I find interesting about her is that for all of that, she's such a digital native, and so many of these things are actually people at home feeling connected to some wider whole as as music has always been, as people sitting at home listening in their bedrooms. But she does also massively understand the communal experience that is live.

所以在巡演的同时，还要在影院举办专辑首发派对。如果她有可能被看作只是个擅长引爆网络、完全懂得如何让互联网为自己所用的人，那么她总会用这些现场活动和集体时刻来平衡。她简直难以被定义。

So at the same time as doing the tour, to do the launch party in the cinemas, if she's ever at risk of seeming someone who just knows how to break the Internet and just fully understands how to manipulate the internet in her favor, then she will then there are always these live things and these moments where people can come together. She's it's quite she's quite unplayable.

是的。她确实如此。完全无法被定义。

Yes. She is. She's absolutely unplayable.

所以我好奇她是否还能针对地位较低者发声。你知道，有些人似乎永远可以成为被调侃对象。比如我觉得金和坎耶活该永远被嘲讽。不知道，也许查理XCX确实不太友善。

Which is why I wonder whether she can punch down anymore. I you know, there's certain people who it seems fine to go back back and do a drive by on. I mean, I think Kim and Kanye can just have it forever as far as I'm concerned. I don't know. Maybe Charlie at c x isn't very nice.

谁知道呢？也许那里发生过不愉快的事。我们无法揣测，但我只是...

Who knows? Who knows? Maybe something unpleasant happened there. We we can't speculate, but I have just.

没错，正是这样。

But Yeah. Exactly.

等等，理查德。

Have just, Richard.

是的。关键在于，你看，即使是现场巡演，她也在创造一种喜剧体验。但她确保每场演出都有一首不同的原声歌曲。这意味着可以拍摄录制下来，然后发布到TikTok和Instagram上。

Yeah. And that's the thing with we you know, even with the live tour, so she's doing something which is a comical experience. But she's making sure every gig, there's a different acoustic song Yeah. Which means that that can be filmed and taped, and then that can be on TikTok, and that can be on Instagram. So

一种新玩法。

a new thing.

没错。但这恰恰显示了行业其他部分有多么守旧。如果她十年前就发现这个规律并坚持执行，现在早已遥遥领先所有人。而年轻一代都懂这套玩法。

Yeah. But it just it just shows you how old fashioned so much of the rest of the industry still is. If she worked out ten years ago that this was a thing and has just put her foot down and has, you know, overtaken everybody, and it's just just miles ahead of everyone. And the generation coming up understand it.

而且她还直接对接院线发行

But And that she'd sell directly into movie theater chains

所有这些。

All of that.

难道要去工作室对迪士尼说，你们介意发行我的演唱会电影之类的东西吗？所有这些，她已经从供应链中剔除了很多人。

Not go to a studio and say to Disney, would you mind putting out my concert film or anything like that? All of that, she's eliminated lots of people from the supply chain.

但说到老派，妮可·基德曼这周也上了新闻。她与伴侣凯斯·厄本离婚了，这是个非常悲伤的故事。但似乎所有报纸的头版都在报道这件事，我们还是有头版新闻的

But talking of old school, Nicole Kidman has also been in the papers this week. So she's divorced from her partner, Keith Urban, which is a very sad story. But it seems to have been on the front page of everything, we still have front pages

这是

It's

真的很有趣。

really interesting.

我很好奇为什么，因为它并没有以某种戏剧性的方式崩溃。比如，他被拍到和，你知道的，完全不同的某个人在一起。是的。而且还有些重大的，你知道的，戏剧性的‘抓包’时刻。

I'm interested as to why because it hasn't imploded in some kind of dramatic way. Like, he's been pictured with, you know, someone completely different. Yeah. And there's some great big you know, dramatic gotcha.

并没有

There's none

这些。谁知道呢？但并没有那种‘抓包’时刻。如果你看看人们有多着迷，这真的很有趣。我认为人们——我认为她在某种文化中所代表的，她身上有种非常神秘的东西，尽管她总是活跃在公众视野中。

of them. Who knows? But there but there's not some sort of gotcha moment. And it's really interesting if you look how obsessed people are. I think people I think what she represents in the sort of culture, she's there is something very mysterious about her even though she's she is very much always on.

我是说，她工作起来简直拼命。她总是马不停蹄地做事，这种工作方式相当古怪。但她在很多方面确实过得很不如意，因为她与汤姆·克鲁斯领养的那两个孩子关系疏远，这实在令人心碎。这段关系将永远萦绕在她心头，因为人们总觉得其中另有隐情。确实，事实就是如此。

I mean, she works more than she works unbelievably hard. She does things back to back all the time, which is driven in quite an odd way. But she's had in many ways a really sad time of it because she's estranged from those two children that she adopted with Tom Cruise, which is desperately sad. And that relationship will always echo down the years for her because I think people feel that something odd happened there. Well, clearly, it did.

我是说，汤姆·克鲁斯与他另一个跟随凯蒂·霍尔姆斯生活的孩子也关系疏远。所以人们可能以为妮可·基德曼和凯斯·厄本终于迎来了幸福结局。但我想说的是，抛开各种猜测不谈，整件事最耐人寻味的是——我们又一次在讨论媒体报道的方式。这周突然冒出无数所谓的肢体语言专家对此事高谈阔论，简直令人瞠目。

I mean, he is Tom Cruise is estranged from his other child who went with Katie Holmes. And so I suppose people thought that Shortzhy had had her happy ending with Keith Urban. But what I will say about all of this, never mind speculating, is that it's so interesting. Yet again, we're talking about, like, how people report this and the way it's covered. I mean, the the sheer number of, like, body language experts and whatever I've seen crawl out of the woodwork this week to discuss it all.

你知道OSINT吗？开源情报。

You know OSINT, open source intelligence.

我不知道OSINT。

I do not know OSINT.

你你知道OSINT吧？OSINT就是开源情报。像Bellingcat这样的组织就专门...

You you know what OSINT, but OSINT is open source intelligence. So there are people like Bellingcat who

哦对，你看

Oh, yes. Look at

研究各种线索，然后思考：我们如何证明是俄罗斯人击落了那架马来西亚航空公司的航班？有些人会仔细梳理这些公开资料，最终证实了惊人的真相，他们确实是这方面的先驱

things and think, now how can we prove that the Russians brought down that Malaysian Airlines Yes. Plane? And there are people who will go through all these Yeah. Publicly available things, and they manage to prove extraordinary things, and they're really kind of pioneering

追查战犯是因为他们确实犯下罪行，比如有一张公开照片，背景里有些涂鸦，他们就能准确找出事发地点。简直就像，没错，就像一支调查记者大军。

find war criminals because there there's they they did, like, one public photo, and there's a bit of graffiti in the back, and they discover exactly where that was. Like like, yeah, like like an army of investigative journalists.

现在有一半人疯狂追星，我指的是那些追踪泰勒·斯威夫特动态、关注这类八卦的人，其实都在奥森特工作。懂吗？他们不去思考'我们怎么证明俄罗斯人击落了那架飞机'，而是纠结'我们怎么查出基思何时摘掉婚戒'，还翻遍各种资料。我觉得军情六处真该招募这支'葡萄酒时光大军'，这群人。

Half half the people who now obsessively follow showbiz, I'm talking about people who follow Taylor Swift, people who follow these stories, basically, work in Ossent. Okay? Instead of saying, now how, you know, how can we prove the Russians down that plane? They're like, now how can we discover when Keith stopped wearing his wedding ring? Let's go back into all these I believe that MI six should recruit this wine time army, this this this army of people.

要是能把他们的劲头用在国家利益上就好了。

If only they could be harnessed in the national interest.

或者反过来说。我在想，要是能让军情六处那帮人认真调查这些事呢？毕竟他们能接触到我们拿不到的资料。

Or the other way around. I would say, what if we actually get some of the gang at MI six to properly look into this stuff? Because they'd have access to stuff that we don't have access to.

感觉他们应该挺忙的。

Feel like they are quite busy.

是啊我知道。但听着，谁不忙呢。

But Yeah. I know. But listen. We're all busy.

没错，大家都还好。

Yeah. We're all okay.

把Good公关做好。如果他们走了，我们终于能发现基思在Instagram上取消关注妮可的发型师那一刻。

Make Good good for PR. If they go, we have finally found the moment that Keith unfollowed Nicole's hairdresser on Instagram.

因为周五晚上五点半，有人坐在家里电脑前抱着一盒玫瑰就能为你搞定。你有一支大军，甚至不需要付钱给他们。

Because someone sitting with a box of rose at home in front of a computer at 05:30 on a Friday evening will do it for you. You you've got an army. They don't even have to be paid.

太神奇了。这就像闲置产能。是啊。而且你知道，每当我们在市场上发现这种情况时

It's amazing. It's like spare capacity. Yeah. And, you know, whenever we find that in a market

这是英国政府体系中我们唯一还保有剩余能力的部分。没错。我们需要产能。我们有这支军队，而且他们是全球性的。人们

That's the only part of the British state in which we actually have capacity left. Yeah. We need capacity. We've got this army, and they're global, actually. People are

真遗憾工党大会刚结束，因为我觉得这本来可以

real shame that Labour's conference just finished because this feels to me

成为

like it could have been

一个重大宣布。他们为什么不找我们商量？你懂我意思吗？为什么斯塔曼不一直打电话问我们：我能宣布什么？我们有什么？

a big announcement. Why don't they talk to us? But do know what I mean? Why is Starman not constantly on the phone to us saying, what can I announce? What have we got?

听我说，我们现在的状况是：有大把闲得发慌的人。

We go, I tell you what we've got. We got a surfeit of people with time on their hands.

他是怕我的想法太出色了。

He's afraid my ideas are too good.

是啊。没错。

Yeah. Yeah.

应该是这样。

Ought to be that.

他会吓坏的。知道吗？你只要和斯塔默待上半小时，他就会说‘我干脆辞职算了，不如你来接手？’

He'd be terrified. You know what? You you just spend half an hour with Starmer. He'd I am actually gonna quit. Why don't you take over?

不然的话，接下来四年就只会是你不停地指挥我干这干那。

Because otherwise, it's just gonna be you telling me to do stuff just for the next four years.

但请听我说——因为现在有大批人会研究各种细枝末节的开源信息，不是关于击落俄罗斯战机或那些战犯什么的，而是娱乐圈里发生的事。这个群体庞大得惊人，真的极其庞大。想想看，泰勒·斯威夫特每发一张专辑，几小时内就有人拆解出所有典故，甚至整理出时间线。

But stay with me because the the the army of people who will study tiny opens open source things, not about the downing of Russian planes or this war criminals or whatever, but about things that happen in the world of showbiz. It's now vast, absolutely vast. I mean, think of every Taylor Swift album that comes out. Within hours, people have unpicked every reference. They've got, like, timelines.

他们掌握了一切信息，这太不可思议了。实际上，那天早上我就注意到，泰勒和查理XCX之间恩怨的详尽时间线——或者说粉丝们认为的恩怨起源——早已被人们在Reddit等论坛上剖析得明明白白。

They've got everything. It's extraordinary. Actually, that's something I noticed on the morning that it come back. These incredibly detailed timelines of the feud that or or where they think the genesis of of a feud between Taylor and Charlie x c x's has have already been unraveled by people, by fans, I should say, and in Reddit threads and things like that.

天啊，这简直令人叹为观止，不是吗？但这就像支持...我是说，任何支持足球队的人都非常清楚这套运作方式。对，比如你队的第三替补前锋被租借到麦克尔斯菲尔德，但教练却莫名不让他上场——大家立刻就能分析出原因。

God, it's enormously impressive, isn't it? But is it it reminds it's like supporting a I mean, the anyone who supports a football team will be very, very aware of how this all works. Yeah. You know, whoever your third choice striker is, and he's on loan at Macclesfield, but some of the Macclesfield manager won't play him for some reason. So so it's all oh, I know why that will be.

不过确实，追星族就像这样。我们真该招几个这样的人来工作，你不觉得吗？他们不知疲倦，简直是情报之源。

And but, yeah, it's like it's like that. For we should get a few of them on staff, don't you think? Yeah. They're tireless. Source intelligence.

对啊，开源八卦。OSGOS，OSGOS。

Yeah. Open source gossip. Yeah. OSGOS. OSGOS.

我的天。

My god.

开源八卦OSGOS，太棒了。我要成立个OSGOS办公室。

Open source gossip. OSGOS. Lovely. I'm gonna set up an the the the OSGOS office.

现在没人像过去那样做新闻了——比如去和门卫搭话挖料之类的

Nobody is going out and doing journalism in the same way that they used to by trying to sort of, I don't know, talk to doorman or

是的。

Yeah.

人们会物色人选，试图将他们纳入工资名单，并通过这种方式获取情报。他们只是观察人们在数字足迹中的活动，并试图从中解读信息。

People makeup people and try and get them on the payroll and try and get stories funneled out that way. They're just watching what happens in people's digital footprints and trying to make sense of it.

说来有趣，确实，他们过去会翻你的垃圾桶，但现在我们几乎时刻都在网上展示垃圾桶里的内容。

Well, funny enough, yeah, they used to go through your bins, but now we display the contents of our bins online at almost all times.

完全正确。这些人——那些调查员——真是了不起。人们的调查能力令人惊叹。他们正在Otisan工作，无论是否意识到这一点。只不过他们是用...

Quite right. These people are phenomenal, the investigators. People are phenomenal investigate. They are working in Otisan, whether or not they realize it. It's just that they're doing it with

他们在Oscars工作。而且，我们并没有将他们武器化。我该告诉你谁会这么做。

They're working in Oscars. And also, we don't weaponize them. I should tell you who will.

有点像是引路人。

It's a bit usher.

是啊。但他当然会这么做。你知道吗？他很可能就是他们现在正在做的事。说不定他正在泰勒·斯威夫特的留言板上招募人手呢，所以我们或许应该...

Yeah. But, of course, he will. You know what? He's he's that's probably what what they're up to at the moment. You know, he's probably even he's probably on a Taylor Swift message board recruiting people, so we we probably should.

绝对同意。我们应该招募所有这些人才。

Absolutely. We should recruit all these people.

在OSGOS，我打算要求员工每周到办公室工作三天，因为我认为这能营造一个促进协作的环境。你懂我的意思吗？开放式办公空间里大家交流讨论，分享各自的工作方法。另外两天在家专心工作。我们还会在顶层设个休闲吧，类似Spotify和Netflix那种风格。

At OSGOS, I'm gonna I want people in the office three days a week because I think it just I think it fosters, like, an environment where people collaborate. You you know what I say? You have an open plan, and people are chatting, and people can talk through their methods and things like that. Two days a week, you're at home and absolutely just head down. And we'll have, like, a bar on the Top Floor, like, you know, Spotify and Netflix and all those people.

就是个不错的酒吧，提供些桃红葡萄酒。有兴趣的人可以告诉我们。要么选苏斯，要么选普京。在我们的文化里经常这样非此即彼——要么是Goalhanger制作公司，要么是普京。随你挑。

Just a nice bar, bit of rose. Anyone who fancies it, let us know. Sus or Putin. As so often in our culture, it is either Goalhanger Productions or Vladimir Putin. He takes your pick.

但基思·厄本和妮可·基德曼当时确实相爱了。总之很抱歉妮可，但我就是觉得...

But they were in love, Keith Urban and Nicole Kidman. But in conclusion, I'm sorry, Nicole, but I just think

我觉得她没在听。

I don't think she's listening.

你觉得妮可没在听我们说话？天啊，你大错特错了。在这个充满困境、人工智能和坏消息的世界里，我认为至少目前泰勒·斯威夫特在做着积极的事情且做得很好。她的新专辑，如果你喜欢这类音乐，你一定会非常非常喜欢。能聊聊这样的话题多好啊。

You don't think Nicole is listening to this? Oh my goodness. You're very wrong. But in a world of trouble and AI and bad news, I just think for the time being at at the very least, Taylor Swift does good things and does them well. And her new album, if you like that sort of thing, you're really, really gonna like it, and how nice to talk about something like that.

《秀场女孩的生活》现在发行了。奇怪的是你不能去商店...我是说虽然有人会去店里买，但你可以直接在线收听。这张专辑棒极了，我强烈推荐。接下来我们插播广告吧，之后可以聊聊梅尔·吉布森。

Life of a Show Girl out right now. It's weird that things that you can't go to the shops and be I mean, some people go to the shops and buy it, but you just listen to it somewhere. But it's terrific. I would strongly recommend it. Should we go to some adverts, after that, we can talk about Mel Gibson.

我们现在就开始吧。本集由天空电视台赞助播出，您可以在这里观看不容错过的节目，包括全新原创惊悚剧《鸢尾花事件》。

Let's do that now. This episode is brought to you by Sky, where you can watch unmissable shows, including the brand new original thriller, the Iris affair.

《鸢尾花事件》是尼尔·克罗斯打造的阳光灼热追逐惊悚剧，他是《路德》的创作者。我超爱《路德》。这是一场穿越意大利的致命追捕。我钟爱这个阳光稀少、阴影多于明信片和广场的意大利。

The Iris affair is a sun drenched chase thriller from Neil Cross, who is the creator of Luther. Love Luther. A deadly pursuit across Italy. I love Italy with fewer postcards and piancias and more shadows than sunshine.

故事核心是鸢尾花·尼克松，她既是解谜狂人，又是魅力天才，还是连环骗子，窃取着可能颠覆权力平衡的量子技术代码。

At the heart is Iris Nixon, equal parts puzzle addict, charming genius, and serial impostor, stealing code tied to quantum technology that could tilt the balance of power.

我热爱谜题。也钟情魅力天才。我们的反派卡梅伦富有、冷酷且资源雄厚，绝不是你想在撒丁岛被追杀时遇到的那种人。

I love puzzles. I love charming geniuses as well. Our Nerd Tale is Cameron, wealthy, ruthless, and very well resourced, not the man you want chasing you through Sardinia.

赌注不仅关乎个人。更是全球性的。这不是观光旅行。阴影与阿佩罗开胃酒都坚决不在菜单上。

The stakes aren't just personal. They're global. This isn't sightseeing. It's shadows and Aperol firmly off the menu.

有人集邮。另一些人则在早餐前就拆解现代生活的结构。每个人都需要点爱好。

Some people collect stamps. Others dismantle the fabric of modern life before breakfast. Everyone needs a hobby.

由《美德》的妮娅姆·阿尔加与《白莲花度假村》《夜班经理》的汤姆·霍兰德联袂主演，《鸢尾花事件》是一部毫不拖沓、绝不手软的惊悚剧。

Starring Niamh Algar from the virtues alongside Tom Hollander from the white lotus and the night manager, the iris affair is the thriller that wastes no time and shows no mercy.

这是意大利风情与锋芒的碰撞。魅力、天才与背叛在海岸线上演。《鸢尾花事件》将于10月16日在Sky频道首播。

It's Italy with teeth. Glamour, genius, and betrayal played out on the coast. The iris affair begins October 16 on Sky.

大家好，我是加里·林尼卡。我要向你们推荐Goalhanger团队推出的精彩新书——爆款播客《The Rest》同款问答集。其余皆为娱乐，其余皆为历史，其余皆为政治。

Hi. It's Gary Linica here, and I want to tell you about a fantastic new quiz book from Goalhanger, the team behind the Smash Hit podcast. The rest is entertainment. The rest is history. The rest is politics.

其余皆为机密，当然，其余皆为足球。《The Rest》问答集收录了1000多道精彩题目，让你与亲友一较高下。10月1日至31日期间，使用优惠码REST2025（注意R是大写）可在Waterstones以半价预购。

The rest is classified, and, of course, the rest is football. The rest is quiz is packed with over 1,000 brilliant questions to test your trivia knowledge against your friends and family. And from October 1 to the thirty first, you'll be able to preorder a copy from Waterstones for half price using the code REST two zero two five. REST twenty twenty five. Capital r, that is.

立即使用大写R开头的优惠码REST2025，在Waterstones预购Goalhanger出版的《The Rest》问答集。

Preorder your copy of the REST is Quiz by Goalhanger from Waterstone using the code REST with a capital r two zero two five now.

欢迎回来。在讨论梅尔·吉布森之前，先宣布一个激动人心的番外篇消息：本周我们将发布免费番外特辑——原本仅供会员，但这次非会员也能收听。

Welcome back, everyone. Before we talk about Mel Gibson, exciting bonus episode news. We have a free bonus episode this week. We had to make it free. So it's for members, but also for nonmembers as well.

如果我说出上线时间，你们可能猜到内容。它将在周三晚间《名人叛徒》首集结束一分钟後上线，我们将实时点评这档节目的第一集，我简直迫不及待。

If I tell you when it's coming out, you might guess what it's about. It will be coming out on Wednesday evening, and it will be coming out one minute after the end of the first episode of the new celebrity traitors. We will be live reacting to celebrity traitors, that first episode. I I am so excited.

这太棒了，简直不可思议。理查德，这可是个大事件。

It's lot it's so great. This is huge, Richard.

这太庞大了。

It's huge.

这太庞大了，我甚至不需要在上面放樱桃。这真是巨大。是的，正如我们所说，那将在周三晚上十点十二分左右到来。

It's huge. I don't even need to put a cherry on this. This is enormous. Yeah. That will be coming, as I as we say, I think about twelve minutes past ten on the on the on that Wednesday night.

是的，我们将直接深入那场开场秀。

Yeah. We will dive straight into the that opening show.

是的，所以会有大量剧透，所以在你看完第一集之前不要听。但如果你已经看了第一集，那么请在周三加入我们，参与那个特别福利。梅尔·吉布森。

Yeah. So it'll it'll be spoilers aplenty, so do not listen to it until you've watched that first episode. But if you have watched that first episode, then please join us on Wednesday for for that special bonus. Mel Gibson.

梅尔·吉布森。给我们讲讲

Mel Gibson. Talk us

给我们讲讲。

talk us through.

哦，你知道我会的，因为《基督复活》的拍摄现已开始，这是梅尔·吉布森《耶稣受难记》期待已久的续集。

Oh, you know I will because filming is now underway on the resurrection of the Christ, which is the going to be the long awaited follow-up to Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ.

基督二部曲：《基督复活》

Christ two, The Resurrection of the Christ.

是的。目前正在罗马的奇尼奇塔片场拍摄，他们还要去南意大利取景。能拿到相当可观的税收减免。让我们回到2004年上映的原版《基督受难记》，那可是梅尔·吉布森自掏3000万美元投资的，在当时绝对是笔巨款。

Yeah. Currently shooting it at Cinecitta Studios in Rome, and they're gonna shoot the locations in Southern Italy. You get some pretty great tax credits. Let's go back to the OG, The Passion of the Christ, which came out in 2004. Now that was self financed by Mel Gibson for $30,000,000, which was massive, a massive amount of money at the time.

放现在也是笔巨款。

That's a lot of money now.

确实不少。但比起他们现在投在这部电影上的钱就不算什么了。当时所有人都觉得他疯了。

It's quite a lot of money. Yeah. It's nothing on what they're spending on this. Everybody thought he'd lost his mind. Okay.

至今仍有争议。因为他用阿拉姆语、希伯来语和拉丁语拍摄，大家都觉得梅尔彻底疯了还自己砸钱。结果这电影成了影史最卖座的独立影片，全球影院票房6亿美元——二十年前这数字简直惊人。它长期保持着R级片票房冠军的纪录。

Jury's still out. Everyone thought he'd lost his mind because he was doing it in Aramaic, Hebrew, and Latin, and they just thought Mel has complete loss of mind and he's self financing. It became the highest grossing indie film of all time. It took 600,000,000 worldwide in cinemas, which is twenty years ago is absolutely enormous. It for a long time, it was the highest highest grossing r rated film.

R级大概相当于我们的15禁分级。

And r rated is sort of our equivalent of of 15.

很多人认为这片子反犹，比如当时的《纽约时报》首席评论家弗兰克·里奇就翻出梅尔·吉布森父亲是否认大屠杀的历史。梅尔对此的经典回应是："我想宰了他，把他的肠子挂在棍子上，连他的狗一起杀。"

A lot of people thought it was antisemitic, Frank Rich, who was at the time the sort of big, you know, New York Times critics, bought up the fact that Mel Gibson's father was a holocaust denier. Mel Gibson's quote about that was, I want to kill him. I want his intestines on a stick. I want to kill his dog.

弗兰克·里奇还是他父亲？

Frank Rich or his dad?

弗兰克·里奇。

Frank Rich.

哦，好吧。好吧。

Oh, okay. Okay.

不。霍顿·吉布森，我想梅尔一直很尊敬，目前为止还好，耶稣啊。所以他想要把自己的肠子串在棍子上。所以当你听到这句话时，你可能会想，该怎么表达呢，梅尔还好吗？而答案，理查德，正如我们两年后在太平洋海岸公路旁发现的那样是，我不知道。

No. Houghton Gibson, I think Mel always revered well, so far so Jesus. So he wanted his intestines on a stick. So when you hear that quote, you're probably thinking to yourself how to put this, Is Mel quite well? And the answer, Richard, as we discovered alongside the Pacific Coast Highway two two years later was, I don't know.

我是说，不是要把它临床化，因为他确实说了一些话，我不知道这是否是一种医学状况。记住，他的妻子，他总是在采访中非常开心地说，这太可悲了。我妻子太棒了，但不，我真的相信她会下地狱，因为她是个圣公会教徒。哇。是的。

I mean, not to clinicalize it because he said some stuff, and I don't know if it doesn't it is a medical condition. Bear in mind, his wife, he always said really cheerfully in interviews, it's so sad. My wife's so wonderful, but no, I do believe she's going to hell because she's an Episcopalian. Wow. Yeah.

总之是个誓言。那天，是的。那件事发生后的第二天，他们分居了。而他，我是说，我想他甚至在自己的教会里也感到被评判，因为他有自己的教会。

Anyway a vow. The day yeah. The day after that that incident, they separated. And he I mean, I think he felt very sort of judged even in his own church because he's got his own church.

他有吗？

Has he?

他在马里布的山上拥有自己的教堂，尽管最近失去了房子，但教堂保住了。上次查看时，这座教堂资产价值4200万美元。我不会说他立刻恢复了元气。但你知道吗？最终马尔格布森做了足够多的事来挽回自己，虽然具体是什么我也不太清楚。

He's got his own church up in the hills in Malibu, which although he lost his house in the recent past, he didn't lose the church. The last time they looked, this church had $42,000,000 worth of assets. I wouldn't say he immediately got himself back on an even keel. But you know what? Eventually, Malgebsson did enough to redeem himself in that I don't know quite what.

是啊。什么？然后我

Yeah. What? And I

他做了什么？

What did he do?

不太清楚。他戒酒了。他做了一些轻微的忏悔。我我我不认为他当时非常懊悔。对。

So unclear. He got sober. He he did some light sozzing. I I I don't think it was he was very sorry. Yeah.

我觉得人们试图让他重返工作。朱迪·福斯特在《独行侠》里让他演一个抑郁的酒鬼，对观众来说跨度太大，反响不佳。他执导了《血战钢锯岭》，为此获得了奥斯卡最佳导演提名。

I think that people tried to get him back into work. Jodie Foster, is within Maverick with, she put him in a film where he played a depressed alcoholic, too much of a leap for audiences, didn't do well. He directed Haxle Ridge. He got a best director Oscar nomination for that.

哦，真遗憾。现在谁都能做任何事了。

Oh, so sorry. Everyone could do everything now.

是啊。是啊。他和妻子达成了和解。我觉得那是当时好莱坞史上金额最大的离婚案。

Yeah. Yeah. He settled with his wife. I think that was the biggest divorce in Hollywood history at the time.

哦，好的。在一个在

Oh, okay. In a in

我认为那被视为

I think that was regarded

他与妻子安顿下来。

as He settled with his wife.

是的。我觉得那害怕被修复。那么我们对这部电影了解多少？因为，我是说，这有点疯狂，因为他其实并不疯狂，因为第一部赚了很多钱。

Yeah. I think that was frightened to be on repair. So what do we know about this film? Because, I mean, it's slightly nuts that he's it's not really nuts because the first one made a lot of money.

我能说说我对这部新电影最喜欢的一点吗？真的，我觉得太棒了。所以我们把它分成两部分。

Can I say my absolute favorite thing about this new film, which genuinely, I think, is amazing? So we split it into two parts.

哦，是的。当然。

Oh, yeah. Of course.

没错。这就是《危机复活》分成两部分。第一部分将在2027年的耶稣受难日上映。然后第二部分在四十天后的耶稣升天节上映。

Right. And that's so Resurrection of the Crisis split into two parts. And the first part is being released on Good Friday. This is 2027. Then the next part is being released forty days later on Ascension Day.

嗯，知道，抱歉。这听起来像是很好的营销手段，对吧？

Well, know, sorry. That feels like good marketing. Right?

他正在和他的兄弟以及一个叫兰德尔·华莱士的人一起写剧本。他在乔·罗根的节目上公布了片名。扮演耶稣的吉姆·卡维泽也回归了。在拍摄第一部时，他实际上被鞭打了两次。你知道鞭刑就是鞭打，我之前完全不知道。

He's writing it with his brother and someone called Randall Randall Wallace. He revealed the title on Joe Rogan. Jim Caviezel, who played Jesus, is back. Now during the original one, he was he was scourged twice. Now do you I scourging is whipping, which I didn't never yeah.

他不小心被鞭打了两次，至今还留有疤痕。

He was accidentally scourged twice. He still got scars.

真的被鞭打了。

Really scourged.

不，是真的。他还被闪电击中过。别多想，理查德。哇。

No. He really was. He was also struck by lightning. Read nothing into it, Richard. Wow.

他...他被闪电击中了。

He he was struck by lightning.

梅尔·吉布森的教堂到底是怎么没被雷劈着火的？

How on earth did Mel Gibson's church not catch fire?

这太不可思议了，对吧？因为这是关于复活的故事。他说这里面有很多超自然元素，叙事是非线性的，就像一场迷幻之旅。

It's incredible, isn't it? Because it's the resurrection. He said he says, there's there's a lot of super supernatural stuff. It's a nonlinear narrative. He said it's like an acid trip.

哇。有传言说他可能会涉及但丁的《神曲》地狱篇之类的内容。他说你必须下地狱，必须经历天使的堕落，直到见证最后一位使徒的死亡。

Wow. There's some sort of rumors that he might be going into the, like, the Dante's Inferno and doing all that sort of stuff. He says you he says, well, you have to go to hell. You have to go down to hell. You have to have the fall of the angels, and then you have to go right to the death of the last apostle.

正如我所说，他是非常特殊的一类天主教徒，不清楚圣经哪些部分会被采用，可能是伪经内容。他拒绝承认第二次梵蒂冈大公会议之后所有教皇的权威。

As I said, he is a very specific type of Catholic, and it's not clear what parts of the bible will end up in this, whether you get apocryphal or what he's a very specific type of Catholic. He rejects the authority of all popes since the second Vatican Council.

是吗？真的吗？他这样？

Does he? Yeah. Does he?

那是1965年。所以

Which is 1965. So

所以他认可1965年之前的所有人？之后就不认了？对，之后的都不认。

So everyone pre 1965, he's okay with Yeah. Afterwards? Yeah. He's not Afterwards.

好的。所以他目前认为圣座处于空缺状态。最近有封信件泄露给他人，他在信中写道：'听说你被绝罚了——说真的（我转述一下），我很乐意被绝罚，因为我根本不承认这些人的权威。'

Okay. So he currently believes that the Holy See is vacant. Recently, there was someone there was some letter leaked recently or to somebody else, and he'd written to this person saying, I see you've been excommunicated. Well, I'd like to be I'm paraphrasing. I'd be quite happy to be excommunicated because, you know, I don't even recognize these these people.

但这甚至不是明年三月唯一一部关于耶稣的大片，两部电影都由狮门影业发行。幸运的是，情况并不算太糟，因为我们的老朋友《被选者》正在发布第六季的最后一集，讲述耶稣受难，以及第七季的第一集，将处理复活的内容，而且是双片连映，所以总时长相当于一部电影。他们现在将其作为更宏大的复活节献礼推出，我猜是这样。

But it's not even the big only big Jesus movie coming out next March, and both are being distributed by Lionsgate. So luckily, they haven't got a really bad because our old friends at the chosen are releasing the last episode of season six, which is the crucifixion, and the first episode of season seven, which is going to deal with the resurrection, and the releasing was a double bill, so it'll be movie length. And they're releasing it now as the bigger kind of resurrection fish, I guess.

所以我们有复活节特辑了。

So we got a resurrection off.

是啊。我们有个...我们有个波本豪尔。我们有个'被选勃起'。

Yeah. We've got a we've got a bobbenhauer. We've got a chose erection.

那我们到底有什么？

So what have we got?

你可以这么叫它。只是我觉得他们不会。当然，我是不会这么叫的。你懂吧？

You can call it that. I just don't think they will. Well, certainly, we can I'm not gonna call it that. You know?

它们同时发布有什么特别原因吗？不是什么周年纪念之类的？

Is there a reason they both come at the same time? It's not like an anniversary or something?

其实那天在日历上是个相当重要且受欢迎的日子，所以他们想靠近那个日期，你知道的，耶稣受难节。

Two It is quite a popular it's quite an important date in the calendar, so they want it near that, you know, Good Friday.

不，不。但为什么偏偏在同一年？

No. No. But why but why in the same year?

我们开始吧，因为这类我们称之为信仰题材的市场——我不明白为何叫信仰题材，我们实际指的是基督教题材，对吧？难道不需要其他表现形式吗？信仰题材的拍摄，理查德。信仰题材电影的市场比梅尔当初发行那部原创电影时好太多了。这类影片的策划和营销规模也大幅提升了。

Let's get onto it because the market for this for what we call faith based I don't know why we call it faith based because what we we mean is Christian, don't we? Don't we need any other face? Faith based filming, Richard. Faith based films, the market is so much better than when Mel released that original film. And organizing and the marketing for these things has become so much bigger.

每年大约有12部这类信仰题材电影会大规模上映。过去十年间这类内容数量激增，而且题材范围也拓宽了。比如《自由之声》这类励志电影，某种程度上明显带有信仰元素，但不一定直接取材于圣经故事。

There are about 12 of these kind of faith based films which get big releases each year. And so there's been a huge increase over the past decade in that in that kind of stuff. And they've widened out, so you have things like Sound of Freedom that's sort of inspirational and that are clearly faith based in some ways, but they're not necessarily specific bible stories.

但这部是重头戏？

But this is the big one?

这部确实是重头戏。耶稣就是...没错。说不定他可以说是史上第一位影响力人物。

This is the big one. Jesus was yeah. Maybe he was maybe he was the first influencer.

我们直接剪辑可以吗

Let's just clip can we

直接剪辑可以

just clip can

我们真的就直接剪辑那段话，对。然后断章取义，把它铺满我们的社交媒体，就是玛丽娜说的那句‘或许耶稣是第一位影响者’。

we literally just clip that Yeah. And take it out of context and just just put it all over our socials, just marina saying, perhaps Jesus was the first influencer.

听着，他推销的是一种生活方式。没错。这是令人向往的。对。

Just Listen. He's selling a lifestyle. Yes. It's aspirational. Yeah.

但他被抵制了。

But he gets canceled.

嗯，你知道的，你说得对。然后他还和胶原蛋白那帮人做了笔交易。

Well, you know, you're right. And then he did a deal with the the collagen lit people.

那太轻率了。别放那段。教会更多地参与基层活动。我们告诉人们去看《天选之人》，出去看这些。

That's too facetious. Don't put that bit on. Churches are much more involved at a grass grassroots level. We're saying to people, watch The Chosen. Go out and watch these.

还有‘传递爱心’票务计划，你可以买票让别人观看。所以这个

Pay it forward ticket schemes where you can buy tickets for people to see it. And so this

这对梅尔来说可能更难，对吧，如果你在那些教会里，因为现在《天选之人》更像是这个故事的官方认可版本。我想，哦，

is what That might be harder for Mel, right, if you are in one of those churches because you do now have this this the the Chosen is slightly more the approved version of this. And I guess Oh,

不可能。这个什么时候会去。

no way. This When when will go for this.

但当《耶稣受难记》上映时，如果你想看某种形式的呈现，那几乎是影院里唯一的选择。而现在，你会有更多选择。

But when the passion of the Christ came out, that that was sort of the only thing that you could go and see in the theater if you wanted to see some representation. Whereas now, you do you are gonna have a choice.

是啊。但市场有需求。你会有选择，但两者都会做。他会进行宣传巡演，这会很有趣。

Yeah. But there's a market for it. That you'll have a choice, but you'll do both. He will do a publicity tour, which will be of interest.

那他现在到那时之间有没有可能崩溃？他某种程度上已经预崩溃了。有可能。但他已经有点像是...我会

And any chance of him imploding between now and then? He's sort of pre imploded. Chance. But he's kind of already it's it's like I'll be

能再次振作。实际上，有人告诉我他这次真的听了这个播客。所以抱歉。但洛杉矶一位知名人士——一个英国人——以为自己要复发了，正想着'我得打电话给我的辅导人'。结果一辆小小的电动车开到了这座豪宅前，从车里出来的正是梅尔·吉布森。

able to go again. Actually, somebody told me he's actually listened to this podcast this time. So sorry. But somebody a a well known figure in LA was having a sort of a British person was having sort of thinking they were gonna have a relapse, thinking they're gonna have a relapse, and then said, I've just gotta call my sponsor. And this tiny little electric car toodled up to this mansion, and who should emerge from the electric car but Mel Gibson.

他居然是这人的戒酒辅导人。我是说，打电话找梅尔来让你冷静下来...但这就是我们生活的世界。你知道我最终得停止这个话题。

He was this person's sober sponsor. I mean, to dial Mel as your calm me down person, but, you know, this is the this is the world we live in. You know I have to stop eventually with that.

某种程度上，听着。我们...我们还会再谈到他的。

At some point, mean, look, listen. We'll we'll come back to him.

我们会的，哦，是的。我们会的。我们会回来的。现在能聊聊音乐剧和现场活动吗？安德鲁·劳埃德·韦伯说百老汇已不再是门生意了。

We will oh, yeah. We will. We'll return. Now can we talk about musicals and live events? Andrew Lloyd Webber says Broadway isn't a business anymore.

没错。所有人都在说，在百老汇制作音乐剧根本赚不到钱，而音乐剧历来是剧院盈利的主要方式。要知道，它们能创造数十亿收入。如果你有一部热门音乐剧，基本上这辈子都不用再工作了。看看蒂姆·莱斯的豪宅，你就知道音乐剧的造富能力了。

Yeah. Literally, everyone is saying you can't make any money making musicals on Broadway, and musicals have traditionally been the way that theaters have made. You know, they make billions. And if you have a hit musical, I mean, you will you'll you never have to work again. All you gotta do is look at Tim Rice's house, and and you know what musicals can do.

我一直想去看，但总是被人群推着走。确实如此。

I keep trying to, but I'm being moved on all the time. Exactly.

是啊，看不了。我只能从墙头偷瞄。疫情以来，百老汇已经新开了46部音乐剧。

Yeah. Can't. I can't look. I'm peeking over the wall. Since the pandemic, been 46 new musicals have opened on Broadway.

其中只有3部盈利，46部里有43部都失败了。

Three of them have made a profit. 43 out of 46 have failed.

好吧。但有些现在每周能赚百万美元，最终会回本的。问题是这些票房收入数字如此庞大，却至今都没能收支平衡，这太不可思议了。

Okay. But some of those are taking a million a week now, and they will eventually recoup. But that's how how much money that's how much money is going across the tills, and the fact that they still haven't broken even at all is extraordinary.

制作成本比过去高太多了。我查过十年前的数据，《烂东西》——那是部大制作音乐剧——在百老汇花了1400万美元。听起来很多对吧？但去年开演的《死态万千》，演员阵容规模相当，成本却高达3150万美元。

They cost so much more than they used to cost. I was looking at something about ten years ago, Something Rotten, which was a big musical Yeah. On Broadway. That they cost $14,000,000, which, I mean, it sounds like a a lot of money and a very similar musical in terms of your cast members and so on. Death Becomes Her, which opened last year, $31,500,000.

就演员阵容、材料等各方面而言，这些成本都极其高昂。如果你想排演一部戏剧——顺便说，百老汇的戏剧市场还算不错——有时只需要三四个演员，剧本可能还是现成的。但如果你想制作音乐剧，

In terms of cast, in terms of materials, and all of these things, I mean, they are incredibly expensive. If you wanna put on a on a play and by way, plays are doing okay on Broadway. Sometimes you got three or four actors. It might have already been written. You you wanna put on a musical.

通常需要庞大的演员阵容、群演团队和合唱团，还要配备管弦乐队，成本极其高昂。舞台布景的花费也非常巨大。

Usually, you'll have a big cast, a big ensemble cast, a big chorus. You will have an orchestra. It's enormously costly. The sets are enormously costly.

材料确实非常昂贵。是的。工会化带来的成本，有人会说高得令人却步。我们这边没有同样程度的工会化，这很奇怪。

The materials are very expensive. Yeah. The unionization, some would say prohibitive cost. We don't have the same that same unionization. It which is very odd.

美国演艺界——我们经常讨论这个——工会化程度极高，导致成本非常非常昂贵。这很大程度上促使人们去其他地方制作作品，也是特朗普谈论关税等问题的部分原因。在他们的劳工规则下，制作成本变得极其高昂。

American show business, we always discuss, is incredibly unionized, and it makes it very, very expensive, which is why, to a large extent, people have gone to make things elsewhere, which is part of the reason why Trump's talking about his tariffs or whatever. It becomes very, very expensive under their labor rules.

是的。但主要现状是：人们依然会观看音乐剧，不过他们选择的是看过的经典剧目。《汉密尔顿》每晚爆满，《魔法坏女巫》每晚爆满，《妈妈咪呀》也是。

Yeah. But mainly what's happening is people are still going to musicals, but they're going to musicals that they've already seen, and they're going to legacy musicals. Because Hamilton is rammed every night. Wicked is rammed every night. So is Mamma Mia.

《汉密尔顿》刚提高了最贵票价，原本单张票1200美元，现在涨到1500美元。所以如果能成功，这钱花得值。

Hamilton, they just put the price of their most expensive ticket. Used to be $1,200 for one ticket. It is now going up to $1,500 for one ticket. So if you can crack it, I mean, it's worth it.

但这就是美国媒体的论调——因为他们完全接受这种现状。他们说票价保持平稳。我就想，疫情期间以来可能确实算相对平稳吧？

But that's what you says. The when you read the American articles, because they so they so accept this. They say prices have remained flat. It's like, I don't know. I mean, I guess it's since the pandemic, it's like, it's sort of flat, isn't it?

因此，这对英国音乐剧来说是个问题，因为你可以让一部英国音乐剧以轻微亏损或收支平衡的状态运营，心想如果真能大获成功，就可以进军百老汇。而十年前、二十年前，一旦成功就能开始大赚特赚，因为所有成本都已收回。明白吗？一切都已就绪，突然间就能从百老汇获得巨额收益。但现在这种情况不会再发生了。

And so the reason this is an issue for British musicals is you can run a British musical at a slight loss or a break even knowing that if you do have a hit on your hands, that can go to Broadway. And ten, twenty years ago, it was really gonna start raking in the money because you've done all your costs. You know? It's it's it's all up and running, and suddenly you're getting this huge money from Broadway. And now that's not gonna happen.

所以实际上，你得在英国本土赚钱，这要困难得多，甚至几乎不可能。

So, actually, you need to make your money in The UK, which is an awful lot harder, if not fairly impossible.

更多人正试图来这边试水，因为那边起步实在太难了。这可能会挤占原创作品、不同形式的戏剧的生存空间，毕竟这些外来作品带着雄厚资金。正如我所说，许多英国剧院已失去艺术委员会资助。这种联姻正在某种程度上破坏生态系统。

Even more people are trying to test over here because it's becoming so difficult to start over there. So it can crowd out original things, different things, plays, because they have come with quite a lot of funding. And as I say, lots of UK theaters have lost Arts Council funding. And so the the it's a it's a marriage that is disrupting the ecosystem a bit.

前几天我在德比郡参加了一场新书活动，负责技术支持的哥们——他非常棒——和他丈夫第二天就要飞往纽约，因为他们是格温妮丝·帕特洛滑雪审判音乐剧的幕后推手，这部剧在爱丁堡大获成功。

I did a book event the other day up in Derbyshire, and the guy who was the the the tech guy from it, who was great, him and his husband were literally just flying off to New York the day after because they are the guys behind the Gwyneth Paltrow skiing trial musical, which had done really well the Edinburgh.

滑雪面罩审判。

Ski masker trial.

没错，正是这个。他们第二天就要飞去百老汇筹备演出。我真心希望他们能取得惊人的成功，那两位真是可爱的人。

Exact yeah. Exactly that. And they were literally flying out to Broadway the next day to go and do that. So I I I hope that's gone unbelievably well for them. They were two lovely fellows.

是啊。我确实认为现场演出，比如剧院里上演的那些东西...

Yeah. I do think live things, like, things that take place in theaters.

是的。剧院有着非常、非常、非常光明的未来。

Yeah. Theatres have a very, very, very healthy future.

前几周，我在南岸的皇家节日音乐厅参加发布会。Goalhanger将接管皇家节日音乐厅整个周末，我们会举办各种活动，还会有跨界活动。我和那里负责策划大量现场活动的人聊过，他们邀请作家和各种人士参与。我自己也注意到正在参与现场活动。

The other week, I was at the at the South Bank at the Royal Festival Hall to launch. Goalhanger are taking over the Royal Festival Hall for a whole weekend, and there's gonna be we're all gonna do events. There's gonna be crossover events. I was talking to someone there who they program lots and lots of live things, they have authors and all sorts sorts of that. And I have noticed myself doing live things.

我认为现场舞台是最后一个能让你说出任何出格或有趣言论的地方。最近我在现场活动中说了些可能只适合在那里说的话。是的，有些内容我可能在这个播客里会说，但肯定不适合任何形式的采访。

I believe that live stages are the last places you can say anything, like, outrageous and interesting. I've said things that I can possibly say doing live events recently Yeah. I've said things I can possibly say on this podcast, certainly in any kind of interview.

关于我的事。

Stuff about me.

是啊，就像在俱乐部里，那是个名人不敢在采访中畅所欲言的地方，生怕被断章取义。

Yeah. It's like you're in a club and it's like a place where celebrities can't say things in interviews for fear of them being clipped.

我是说，现在真的不行了。你和任何人交谈——无论是《广播时报》还是其他媒体，你都知道人们觉得采访无聊的原因是你根本没法说，说了也没意义。我的意思是，你可以说些东西，但接下来就会有一周时间人们追问'你不是说过这个吗？'

I mean, really can't anymore. You do talk to anyone. You talk to Radio Times, you talk to anyone. You you just you know, people think interviews are boring is because you you just can't say there's no point saying anything. I mean, you could you could say stuff, but then you've got, like, a week of people saying, didn't you say this?

'你不是说过那个吗？'他会说'不，我没那么说。是有人说了什么，我只是稍微点了点头。'

Didn't you say that? He said, well, no. I sort of said someone said something. I kinda nodded.

我甚至不打算透露这件事发生的地点，否则记者们就会蜂拥而至，像去年那样蹲守这场现场活动。但运营Goal Hanger的托尼告诉我一个最近在台上曝光的惊人内幕——这消息本该登上《星期日泰晤士报》头版两周的。结果却石沉大海。现场有数千观众，却无人问津。

I'm not even gonna say where this was because otherwise, like, reporters will be sent to sit in this live event last year. But Tony, who runs Goal Hanger, told me something quite extraordinary that was revealed on the stage recently. It that would have been a Sunday Times splash for two weeks. It did not get up. There were thousands of people there, and it didn't get up.

这太有意思了。

It's so interesting.

集体体验极其重要，而且只会变得越来越重要。

The the communal experience is incredibly important. It's only gonna get more and more and more important.

人们对此如饥似渴。

And people crave it.

人们真的、真的渴望这种体验。渴望一起欢笑，彼此激发兴趣。如今剧院最迷人的现象就是，大量演出只是某个教授或电视名人单纯在台上演讲或访谈。我手头有份长长的名单——这些人全都在全国巡演。

People really, really crave it. People crave laughing with each other, being interested with each other. It's one of the fascinating things in theaters now is the amount of shows which are just somebody, like a professor or someone from the television, just talking or doing an interview. I've a big old list. All these people all these people are out on tour.

这些不是单口喜剧，明白吗？不是戏剧表演，也不是类似形式。这完全是个新兴产业。

So these are not stand ups. Okay? These are not plays. These are not anything like that. This is this is a whole new industry.

我们常讨论播客做现场秀，但现在是人们直接走出去做访谈，通常是为了宣传新书什么的。全国各地的剧院里，1500到2000座的场馆场场爆满。迈克尔·波蒂略、斯图尔特·布罗德、哈里·雷德克纳普、达维娜·麦考尔、桑迪·托克斯维格、托尼·罗宾逊、乔纳森·阿格纽、理查德·科尔斯、罗里·布雷姆纳、道恩·弗伦奇、哈里·恩菲尔德、杰辛达·阿德恩——这很合理，加雷斯·索斯盖特、玛丽·比尔德、奈杰拉·劳森、米里亚姆·玛格丽丝、奈杰尔·普拉纳、弗雷迪·弗林托夫、马克·朗森、弗朗西斯·罗西、格雷森·佩里连演22晚。各种形式应有尽有

We talk a bit about podcast doing live shows, but this is people just going out there and doing interviews often to promote a book or whatever it is about theaters up and down the country, selling out a 1,500, 2,000 seater venues. Michael Portillo, Stuart Broad, Harry Rednett, Davina McCall, Sandy Toxvig, Tony Robinson, Jonathan Agnew, Richard Coles, Rory Bremner, Dawn French, Harry Enfield, Jacinda Ardern. Fair enough. Garris Southgate, Mary Beard, Nadella Lawson, Miriam Margulies, Nigel Planer, Freddie Flintoff, Mark Ronson, Francis Rossi, Grayson Perry doing twenty two nights. So every way

凯瑞·卡托娜和乔丹也在做这个，他们是双人组合。

Kerry Katona Jordan are doing one as well. They're doing double.

那——那——那还挺有看头的。

That's that's that's watchable.

太混乱了，我一直在关注这个。

Chaos. I've been following that.

全国各地都有这样的场所，这是个相当新兴的产业。以前偶尔也有类似活动，比如《体育问答》会进行巡演。你知道的，偶尔会有采访之类的活动，但现在这些都产业化了——人们进行大型巡演，而且异常火爆，所到之处门票售罄。最有趣的是——这完全是个题外话——

All of these places up and down the country, and this is this is a fairly new industry. There's always been the the odd thing, like, question of sport would go out on tour. You know, you'd you'd have the odd interview thing, but this is the industrialized version of that, people going on these big tours, and they are incredibly popular. They sell out wherever they go. The the fascinating thing about them is there's a really interest, and this is a complete sidebar.

我对此没有答案，只是提一下。如果你和单口喜剧演员聊，他们在2000人场馆演出时，收入是透明的。但如果你是作家、电视学者这类人，虽然也参加活动，但通常是在文学节或新书发布会上，基本没有报酬。

And I don't have an answer to this. I just I just I just mention it. That you talk to if a stand up plays a 2,000 seater venue, a stand up knows exactly what you get paid. They know those numbers. If you are an author or a television academic or something like that, you have always done events, but you've done them at literary festivals or you've done them to launch books and you don't get paid anything.

我和一个单口喜剧演员聊天时，你就像

I was talking to a stand up You're like

一个毫无参照标准的孩子。参照标准。

child with no frame of reference. Reference.

是的，没错。因为你举办活动是为了与读者交流，这很好，是一种共生关系。

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Well, you because you you do an event because you want to talk to readers or, you know, and it's it's nice. It's symbiotic.

门口会有独立书店在售书，所以大家都受益。但前几天我和一位单口喜剧演员聊天，他在剧院和一位电视圈人士交谈。那位电视人说：‘太不可思议了，他们付了我X英镑来做这个。’

You'll get an independent bookstore out there bookshop out the front selling books, so, you know, everyone's a winner. But I was talking to a stand up the other day. He was at a theater talking to someone someone, you know, like a like a TV person. And the TV person said, no. It's it's it's it's amazing because they've they've given me x pounds to do this.

‘这很棒，因为通常我是免费做的。’而那位单口演员说，他们报的数字应该是填满那个剧院所应得报酬的十分之一。真的只有十分之一。因为他们习惯了无偿演出，所以不理解。

It's great because normally, I would do it for free. And the stand up said the number that they said was a tenth of what they should be getting paid for selling out that theater. Okay. Literally a tenth. And because they used to not being paid at all, so they don't understand

出版业可不这么运作，对吧？因为其他人已经介入充当了推广人或核心组织者的角色。虽然我没法详细讨论几十年来出版业的运作方式，但有趣的是他们允许这种情况发生，还允许发生在作者身上——尤其如你所说，图书销售渠道虽未枯竭，但确实在萎缩。

Well, publishing doesn't run this, does it? Because other people have inserted themselves into that particular, I suppose, promoter role or core organizer. Yeah. And, yeah, I mean, I can't do a full sidebar on the way publishing has been run over decades, but it's interesting that they have allowed that to happen, and they've allowed it to happen to their authors when, as you say, the book buying streams are not drying up, but they're certainly depleting.

现在这个领域就像狂野西部一样混乱。因为我觉得剧院——

There's a there's a weird wild west out there. Because I don't think theaters

——是在剥削某人。对，就是在拿钱开玩笑。如果不是在剥削才华的话。可以这么说。

are taking somebody Yeah. Is making fun of money. And if it isn't talent Yeah. As it were

但我会对某些人说这很有趣。有什么建议吗？

But I would say to some then that's intriguing. Recommendations?

这很明显，但我非常喜欢《一场接一场的战斗》。哦，是吗？是的，这绝对是一部值得在影院观看的电影。音效至关重要，而且它用VistaVision技术拍摄的方式太美了。

This is obvious, but I loved one Battle After Another. Oh, did you? Yeah. I which is 100% a film to see in cinemas. The sound was so important, but also the way it's shot in VistaVision, it's so beautiful.

它涉及很多内容，非常有趣。既探讨了许多宏大主题，同时也是一部反映美国当下现实的电影，而且随着导演保罗·托马斯·安德森构思以来，其现实意义愈发凸显。某种程度上，能看到这样直击当下的电影相当罕见。

It's about lots it's very funny. It's about lots of big ideas, but it is also about a a sort of big film about things that are happening now in America, and it's obviously only become more current since he Paul Thomas Anderson, the director, came up with it. It's quite unusual in some ways to see films that are about things that are happening now in some ways.

不是吗？我终于看了《脊髓纹身》，这部电影似乎只在极少数...

Isn't it? I finally managed to see Spinal Tattoo, which is seems to be on a very, very small amount of

是啊。

Yeah.

影院上映。我只想说，片尾字幕时的那个笑料可能是我影史最爱。就是戴维斯和哈宾斯的一句台词，我们俩坐在那儿完全被击中了。简直是个蠢到惊人的笑话，强烈推荐。

Cinemas. And I I will just say this, over the closing credits is I think might be my favorite joke in cinema history. It's just a one liner from Davis and Hubbins, which we we were both sitting there and just just absolutely go forward. Just an amazingly stupid joke. So I recommend that.

但还有——我们不能因为事物年代久远就遗忘。《宏大设计》新一季回归，依然是无可匹敌的电视节目。凯文·麦克劳德仍是无可替代的主持人，制作团队也同样出色。所以强烈推荐回归的《宏大设计》。别忘了周三首集之后还有《叛徒》特别加更环节，我们会即时分享观后感。

But I also just because we mustn't forget things just because they're old. There's a new series of Grand Designs, and it remains absolutely peerless television. And Kevin MacLeod remains an absolutely peerless presenter, and that production team are peerless in what they do as well. So so Grand Designs is back and strongly recommended. Don't forget, we got that sort of traitors bonus episode coming up directly after the first episode on Wednesday where we'll be chatting about our reactions to that episode.

周四还有问答特辑。那我们周三或周四见。

Q and a episode on Thursday as well. So we'll see everyone either on Wednesday or Thursday.

周三或周四。再见。本节目由天空电视台为您呈现。

Wednesday or Thursday. Bye bye. This episode was brought to you by Sky.

天空玻璃是天空电视台推出的新款电视，它让您的旧电视感觉像是彩排。这就是您客厅里的大银幕首映。

Sky Glass is the new television from Sky, the kind that makes your old telly feel like a dress rehearsal. This is the big screen premiere right there in your living room.

因为它不仅仅是关于像素和设置，更是关于体验。天空玻璃具有自动调节功能，能智能适应您观看的内容。内置杜比音效使对话更清晰、脚步声更近、风暴声更震撼。

Because it's not just about pixels and settings, it's about the experience. Sky Glass has auto adjust, which cleverly adapts to whatever you're watching. And the built in Dolby sound makes dialogue sharper, footsteps nearer, storms louder.

探索天空自然频道的声音秘境。青蛙的鸣叫如同铜管乐，蝙蝠的咔嗒声像响板，连寂静都仿佛为环绕声而设计。这不像自然的录音，更像自然的混音。

Take the secret world of sound on Sky Nature. Frogs croak like brass sections, bats click like castanets, and even the hush between feels designed for surround sound. It's less like nature recorded, more like nature remixed.

还有大卫·爱登堡，他的声音比中央暖气更温暖，将幼年凯门鳄和徘徊的鬣狗变成了莎士比亚剧中的角色。这时您会意识到天空玻璃不只是播放电视。

And then there's David Attenborough, his voice warmer than central heating, turning baby caimans and prowling hyenas into Shakespearean characters. That's when you realize Sky Glass doesn't just show TV.

它生来就是为了与内容协作，是每个精彩场景背后默默无闻的制片人。

It was built to collaborate with it, the unsung producer behind every great scene.

访问sky.com。需订阅相关天空电视套餐。建议宽带最低速度30兆比特/秒，限18岁以上用户，仅限英国、海峡群岛及马恩岛。

Visit sky.com. Requires relevant Sky TV subscriptions. Broadband recommended minimum speed, 30 megabits per second, 18 plus, UK, Channel Islands, and Isle Of Man only.