1. 伟大

感谢您收听《历史的余韵》。

Thank you for listening to the rest is history.

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For weekly bonus episodes, ad free listening, early access to series, and membership of our much loved chat community, go to therestishistory.com and join the club.

网址是therestishistory.com。

That is therestishistory.com.

大家好，欢迎收听《历史的余韵》首期节目，这是一档关于历史万象的全新播客。

Hello, and welcome to the first episode of The Rest is History, a new podcast about all things historical.

我是多米尼克·桑德布鲁克，而我的搭档——虽然我这么称呼他，但他肯定会自称是我的幕后操纵者。

I'm Dominic Sandbrook, and my sidekick, as I like to refer to him, although he would no doubt refer to himself as my puppet master.

坐在我对面的是汤姆·霍兰德先生。

He's opposite me, and it's mister Tom Holland.

你好啊，汤姆。

Hello, Tom.

非常感谢，多米尼克。

Thank you very much, Dominic.

多么矛盾的介绍啊。

What an ambivalent introduction.

很高兴能来到这里。

That was lovely to be here.

你期待这档播客吗？

You're forward to the podcast?

以前做过播客吗？

Done a podcast before?

我以前从没做过播客。

I've never done a podcast before.

我上过很多节目，但自己主持还是头一回。

I've been on lots, but I've never actually done one.

但既然全英国的人都在做播客，我就想那——

But since everybody else in Britain is doing one, I thought that that

不过可不是这种类型的。

Not one like this, though.

不是这种类型的。

Not one like this.

对。

No.

不是这种类型的。

Not one like this.

这将是一种彻底的全新尝试。

This is going to be something completely and radically new.

嗯，这还有待观察。

Well, that remains to be seen.

汤姆·克雷登舍尔斯？

Tom Credentials?

研究古代与中世纪早期的历史学家。

Historian of the ancient world, early Middle Ages.

我刚写完一本名为《统治》的书，从四月一直写到当代基督教历史，书名就叫《统治》，各大书店均有销售。

And I've just written a book Dominion, goes from April right the way up to the present day history of Christianity called Dominion, available in all good bookshop space.

确实是本好书，虽然是我自己说的。

Very good book, even if I say so myself.

真是本好书啊，汤姆。

A very good book, Tom.

你呢？

And you?

我主要写现代英国，也涉及一些美国，但主要还是现代英国。

And I write about modern Britain mainly, a little bit in America, but mainly modern Britain.

所以我写了从1950年代至今的英国系列丛书，最新一本叫《勇者必胜》。

So I've written series of books about Britain since the nineteen fifties, and the most recent one is called Who Dares Wins?

这本书全面记录了八十年代的撒切尔夫人、杜兰杜兰乐队、斯班道芭蕾乐队、马岛战争，以及所有你想知道的内容。

And it's all about Margaret Thatcher in the eighties and Duran Duran and Spandau Ballet and the Falklands War and everything you would ever want to know.

所以我支持古罗马人。

So I'm batting for the ancient Romans.

多米尼克支持杜兰杜兰乐队。

Dominic is batting for Duran Duran.

我觉得我们算是面面俱到了。

We've covering all the bases there, I like to think.

所以基本上我们能涵盖几乎所有话题。

So, essentially, we can cover almost anything.

当然，这正是播客的最大乐趣所在。

And that, of course, is the great joy of podcasts.

那么多米尼克，你今天想聊些什么？

And, Dominic, what do you want to talk about today?

我认为我们应该以一贯之的态度开始，并且应该以伟大作为开端。

Well, I think we should start as we mean to go on, and I think we should start with greatness.

谁是伟大的？

Who is great?

这是什么？

What is it?

为什么人们不再伟大了？

Why aren't people great anymore?

所以，汤姆·耶斯。

So, Tom Yes.

作为你自己就是个伟人

As a great man yourself

是的。

Yes.

给我列举一些历史上的伟大人物吧。

Throw some some great figures from history at me.

当然，最著名的当属亚历山大大帝，第一位。

Well, the the biggie, of course, is Alexander See, the first.

伟大的。

The great.

你看，我觉得有趣的是，'某人伟大'这个概念其实并非天然存在。

Well, I you see, I think what's interesting is that the the idea of somebody being great isn't actually a kind of natural thing.

这是特定文化环境孕育的产物。

It's it's something that's that's that's bread of very specific cultural circumstances.

而某人能成为伟人的观念最初源自波斯。

And the idea that that somebody can be great is originally a a Persian idea.

伟大的国王，

The great king,

是吗？

is it?

伟大的国王。

The great king.

所以他是万王之王。

So he's the king of kings.

他就是那位伟大的国王。

He's the great king.

这就是他的称号由来。

That's what the that's how he's known.

所以波斯国王的地位高于

So the king of Persia was was superior to

因为波斯帝国是当时人们见过的最强大的帝国。

Because the Persian empire is is the greatest empire that anyone had had had ever seen.

而且我越来越觉得，基本上所有事物最终都能追溯到波斯。

And I I I just increasingly think that basically everything goes back to Persia, ultimately.

所有事物，你知道，

Everything kind of, you know,

你在伊朗人身上很好地印证了这一点。

you you follow something very well with people in Iran.

你做事总是走极端。

Well, you follow things extremely.

一切总是要追溯到波斯。

It always goes back back to Persia.

因此那位波斯之王就是万王之王。

And so the king the king of Persia is the great king.

然后马其顿的亚历山大三世，嗯哼。

And then Alexander the third of Macedon Mhmm.

征服了波斯帝国。

Conquers the Persian empire.

于是他成为了万王之王。

So he then becomes the great king.

所以这是什么时期？

So this is what?

公元前四世纪吗？

The fourth century BC?

四世纪。

Fourth century.

后来他死了，帝国随之分裂。

So so he dies, and his empire splits up.

他麾下的将领们像鬣狗群般瓜分帝国。

And there his various generals kind of scavenge over it like a pack of hyenas.

他们都想成为亚历山大那样的人物。

And they all want to be like Alexander.

其中有一位名叫安条克的国王尤为特别，他重返波斯试图再次征服，并似乎采用了‘伟大’这一称号。

And there's there's there's one king in particular who called Antiochus who who goes back into Persia, tries to reconquer it, and he adopts the name of great, it seems.

所以他自称伟大的国王。

So he's he's calling himself the great king.

这里暗示着这就是一切的起源。

So there's a hint there that this is where it begins.

但后来真正接手这一概念的是罗马人。

But then what what actually happens is that it's the Romans who pick up on it.

关于亚历山大的最早记载出现在公元前三世纪中叶。

So the first reference to Alexander is in the mid third century.

公元前80年？

'80 or BC?

抱歉。

Sorry.

公元前。

BC.

公元前。

BC.

他们称他为亚历山大·马格努斯，即亚历山大大帝。

And and and they are calling him Alexander Magnus, Alexander the Great.

所以，多米尼克，我想说的是，‘伟大’这一概念源自古代历史。

So so so, basically, Dominique, what I'm saying is that the the idea of greatness is comes from ancient history.

是的。

Yeah.

这真是太棒了。

And so so that's brilliant.

所以，基本上，那是我的。

So, basically, that's mine.

是的。

Yes.

但但你自称是现代历史学家。

But but you've called you're you're a modern historian.

所以我的意思是，基本上，你们没有伟大的人物。

So, I mean, basically, you don't have great people.

不，其实没有。

No, not really.

显然，我为这个播客做了研究。

So I obviously, I do my research for this podcast.

所以我看了维基百科的名单，还找到另一个网站，我翻动纸张证明我确实做了研究。

So I looked at the Wikipedia list of people who look I found another website, I'm rustling my paper to prove that I've done my research.

另一个网站开头就写着：历史上至少产生了38位伟人。

Another website, begins with the words, history has produced at least 38 great people.

38个？

38?

至少38个，这个数字很...

At least 38, it's very There

可能还有更多。

could be some more out there.

43，谁知道呢？

43, who knows?

不过无论如何，我们还是回到维基百科吧，因为维基百科显然是人们会查阅的资料

But anyway, let's go back to the Wikipedia because Wikipedia is obviously the one thing that people will look

那么最近的是哪位？

So what's the most recent?

我认为最近的是日本的明治天皇

So I think the most recent is the emperor Meiji of Japan.

他于1912年去世

He dies in 1912.

他就是那个向西方打开日本国门的人

So he's the guy who opens up Japan to the West.

他使日本现代化，可以说将其推进了二十世纪

Modernizes Japan and sort of pushes it into the twentieth century, if you like.

但在此之前的人物，我们最后能想到的伟人大概是彼得大帝

But everybody before that, so the last people that we think of as great are kind of Peter the Great.

叶卡捷琳娜大帝

Catherine the Great.

叶卡捷琳娜大帝

Catherine the Great.

所以我们讨论的是十八世纪初

So we're talking beginning of the eighteenth century.

然后还有开明专制君主

Then we've got the enlightened despots.

我是说，我在A-level课程学他们的时候，觉得他们简直无聊透顶。

I mean, I found them excruciatingly boring actually when did them for A level.

叶卡捷琳娜大帝、腓特烈大帝，这些使俄罗斯和普鲁士现代化以及类似的中欧君主们。

Catherine the Great, Frederick the Great, people who modernize Russia and Prussia and these sort of central European monarchs.

但谁来决定他们是否伟大呢？

But who deciding that is they're great?

我是说，难道有个类似诺贝尔奖那样的评选委员会吗？显然没有。

I mean, is there a kind of selection committee like the Nobel Prize No.

我认为这是从当时的历史编纂中自然形成的。

I think it emerges from the sort of immediate historiography.

所以这其实是维多利亚时代作家们的某种创造。

So it's a kind of creation of Victorian writers.

而且我认为当我们谈论伟人时，所谓的伟大很大程度上与国家建设、政权缔造相关。

And I think greatness in this, when we talk about people being great, I think a lot of it is to do with nation building, state builders.

我觉得这正是维多利亚时代人们的做法。

And I think it's the thing that Victorians did.

你知道，维多利亚时期或十九世纪民族主义者们热衷于寻找民族国家的历史根源，他们往往会深入档案，试图证明某个民族在历史黎明时期就保持着纯洁无瑕的本源。

I mean, as you know, the Victorians or nineteenth century nationalists generally were all about finding historical roots of nation states and arguing that they would sort of delve back into the archives to prove that a given nation had sort of been born unsullied and pure at the dawn of history.

而且我觉得他们寻找的建国之父们通常都很...遥远。

And I think they looked for founding fathers and they were generally far.

比如叶卡捷琳娜大帝应该算一个，但大体上都是男性，是那些通过武力将人民凝聚成强大王国或实现现代化的武士之类的人物。

I mean, they were Catherine the Great, I suppose, but by and large, they're men, they're warriors who've welded their people into this sort of mighty realm or modernized it or something like

但如果是这样，为什么乔治·华盛顿不被称为'伟大的乔治'呢？

But it's So in which case, why is George Washington not George the Great?

因为他是个发现者，我是说，他是开国元勋的典范。

Because he's a found I mean, he's the essence of a founding father.

嗯，这个

Well, this

这就是问题所在，不是吗？

is the thing, isn't it?

是因为这是个共和国吗？

Is it because it's a republic?

当你和他们一起时，意思是...所以

When you go with them mean So

在共和国里就不能有伟人了吗？

you can't have great men in republics?

不，确实有伟人。

No, you do have great men.

暂且聚焦美国，他们不用'伟人'这个术语，但会用'开国元勋'的说法。

And to just concentrate on America for a second, they don't use that terminology, but they do use the terminology of the founding fathers.

他们有林肯纪念堂、杰斐逊纪念碑。

And they have the Lincoln Memorial, the Jefferson Monuments.

还有各种可以去的地方，比如托马斯·杰斐逊的故居蒙蒂塞洛，向伟人致敬。

They have all these kind of you can go to kind of Monticello, Thomas Jefferson's house, and kind of do homage to the great man.

是啊。

Yeah.

但想想看，他们没有被称作'伟大的亚伯拉罕'这个事实。

But think the fact that they're not It's not Abraham the great.

他不是伟大的乔治。

It's not George the great.

我认为这确实表明共和国存在问题。

I think that that does suggest that there is an issue with in republics Yeah.

确实，民主制度与这个理念，你知道的

And indeed democracies with with with the idea of, you know

嗯，我确实认为

Well, I definitely think that

某个伟大的人物。

someone great.

我完全认为你是

I absolutely think you're

对的。

right.

君主们。

Monarchs.

那么我想，有没有人

So I think Is there anyone who's

被称为伟人但不是君主的？

called who who who is who's called great who's not monarch.

比如，庞培大帝，我猜。

Mean, Pompey the great, I guess.

还有一些伯爵和主教。

There were some earls and bishops.

我是说，我又去查维基百科了，但有点走投无路的感觉。

I mean, I'm going back to the Wikipedia, but it's bit desperate.

但基本上他们都是

But basically they're all

君主。

monarchs.

是啊。

Yeah.

想想看，从定义上来说，在民主制度中不可能有伟人，因为实际上很多人——往往是多数人——很可能投票给了其他候选人，这不是事实吗？

Think almost by Isn't it true that by definition in a democracy, you can't have the great because an awful lot of people often actually a majority may well have voted for other candidates.

他们本会投票反对他们。

They will have voted against them.

但这不也是一种效应吗？它违背了民主的核心理念。是的。

But also it's an effect isn't it that it's an offense against the very idea of of of democratic Yes.

你知道，共和国或民主制度中那种隐含的平等主义。

You know, the the the the kind of implicit egalitarianism of a republic or a democracy.

那种认为存在伟人、伟人让民主制度黯然失色的观点被视为

The idea that there are great people, great men who put democracies in their shadow is seen as being

受到威胁的民主制度确实有这种情况，不是吗？

Threatened democracies do have that, though, don't they?

所以他...是的，但他们不称其为伟大。

So his Yeah, but they didn't call them great.

我是说，你没有

I mean, you didn't

那么穆斯塔法·凯末尔·阿塔图尔克呢？这位土耳其之父，现代土耳其的缔造者。

What about Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, father Turk, the founder of modern Turkey.

有这么一个人，我是说，他

So there's a man, I mean, I mean, he

但他其实是另一种意义上的开国元勋，把一切都凝聚在一起。

is But he's another kind of founding father who's sticking it all together.

是啊。

Yeah.

确实如此。

So yeah.

所以他就在那里

So he's so there

二十世纪确实有一些

are some twentieth century Yeah.

例子。

Examples.

我是说，在...我也不确定。

I mean, in I don't know.

在爱尔兰有埃蒙·德·瓦莱拉。

In Ireland, there's Eamon de Valera.

但他算不上'伟大的埃蒙'，对吧？

But he's not Eamon the Great, is he?

我是说，你知道，这不过是

I mean, you know, I mean, it's it's just

是第几号。

it's No.

而且我认为另一个关键点是关于伟人的概念。

It's and I think also the other thing is so so the idea of of great men.

对。

Yeah.

他们通常都是男性，不是吗

They're they're generally men, aren't

？

they?

没错。

Yeah.

将伟人视为推动历史前进的力量。

Of great men as as the people who power history forwards.

这种观点非常...这是维多利亚时代的托马斯·卡莱尔提出的

That's that's a very kind of that's Thomas Carlyle, the great Victorian by

这位工业时代

industry who

的思想家非常推崇这个理念。

is very, very kind of keen on that idea.

而卡莱尔后来成了希特勒最喜爱的作家之一。

And that then Carlyle was one of Hitler's favorite authors.

我是说，希特勒在 bunker（地堡）里时——如果我没记错——手边就放着卡莱尔写的

I mean, so so Hitler in in in the bunker is is, I think, I'm right in saying has Carlyle's biography of

腓特烈大帝。

Frederick Frederick the Great.

是的。

Yes.

他被视为伟大，因为尽管普鲁士看似将被四面集结的敌军击溃。

Who is seen as great because it looks as though Prussia is going to be crushed by all the enemies that are massing around it.

但腓特烈却成功脱身，得以再战一日。

And Frederick wriggles free and lives to do another day.

你知道

You know

什么，汤姆？

what, Tom?

罗斯福在二战结束前夕去世时，戈培尔和希特勒在地堡里有过这样一段对话，他们说这正像腓特烈大帝的经历，历史正在重演。

When Roosevelt died, just before the end of the second war, when Roosevelt died, Goebbels and Hitler have this conversation in the bunker where they say, this is just what happened to Frederick the Great and history is repeating itself.

就在他即将战败时，敌人相继死去。我们就像腓特烈大帝一样，必将挣脱困境。

His enemies died just when he was gonna be beaten and we are just like Frederick the Great and we are gonna wriggle free.

所以你是对的。

So you're right.

有种阴影笼罩着。

There's a sort of shadow hanging over.

这位18世纪的普鲁士国王，将普鲁士从一个毫无希望的落后小国，提升为欧洲列强之一，本质上为19世纪统一的德意志奠定了基础。

So Frederick, the the king of Prussia in in the eighteenth century, who who essentially raises Prussia up from being a kind of Hicks Ville backward no hope of a power to be to being one of the great powers of of of Europe and kind of essentially the the stepping stone to to what becomes united Germany in the nineteenth century.

所以，凡是乡巴佬热衷的东西，显然都很糟糕。

So, yeah, anything that that Hick is into, obviously Is bad.

变得有问题了。

Becomes problematic.

糟糕。

Bad.

但程度较轻。

But it mildly.

马马虎虎吧，所有人

So so All

古典音乐。

classical music.

嗯，法西斯主义者认同那种伟大理念的感觉。

Well, so the sense that the the fascists identified with that idea of greatness.

但很多人都认同伟大，不是吗？

But lots of people identify with greatness, don't they?

首先，所有读历史书的孩子都会认同伟大理念，因为他们把自己

First of all, all children reading history books identify with the idea of greatness because they see themselves

视为伟大。

as great.

只有在安全的历史背景下才行。

Only if it's safely in the past.

所以读阿尔弗雷德大帝是安全的，但读保罗·帕克斯大帝就不行。

So it's safe to read about Alfred the Great because But not about Paul Parks the Great.

不行。

No.

好吧，要么是伟大的马洛，要么是伟大的斯大林。

Well, Or Marrow the Great or Stalin the Great.

好吧，这里有个大大的'因为'——因为他们显然认为，如果你是法西斯主义者，你就会相信伟人的存在。

Well, here's a big Because because they because, obviously, the if you're a fascist, then you believe in great men

是啊。

Yeah.

塑造命运。

Shaping destiny.

所以希特勒和墨索里尼把自己宣传为伟人也没什么问题。

So it's it's fine for Hitler and Mussolini to man to to broadcast themselves as being great.

斯大林和毛泽东同样是极具影响力的人物，但他们自视为人民意志的体现。

Stalin and Mao are are just as influential figures, but they see themselves as the expression of the will of the people.

所以尽管毛泽东被称为伟大舵手之类的...是啊。

And so even though Mao is what the great helmsman or whatever Yeah.

你不能用那种与君主制相关的伟大来谈论...因为我...

You you can't talk in that sense of of of greatness that is associated with with monarchs because I

我完全不信这套。

don't buy that at all.

我觉得你确实和他们讨论过这个。

I think you did talk you do talk about that with them.

你不会说斯大林很伟大。

You don't talk about Stalin being great.

伟大的斯大林。

Stalin the great.

至于希特勒，我觉得他...你知道，我不认为伟人会是这样的

Whereas Hitler, I think would he would you know, I don't think the great man would have been he would

而斯大林的形象塑造完全把他描绘成一位伟人

have iconography was all about Stalin as a great man.

我是说，他的那些形象——人民之父

I mean, the images of him, the father of his people.

就像希特勒一样，他会收到普通俄罗斯女性的情书

Just like Hitler, he would get love letters from ordinary Russian women.

他被塑造成一个超凡脱俗的巨人形象，无比睿智，伟大的军事领袖，诸如此类

He was sort of projected as this colossus larger than life, supremely wise, great military leader, all of this sort

这些内容

of stuff.

是的

Yes.

但官方说法是，斯大林是人民意志的体现

But officially, Stalin is the expression of the will of the people.

这就是他的本质

That's what he's he's about.

马克思主义的基本观点认为，个人、伟人不过是表面的泡沫

Marxism is founded on the idea that individuals, great people are just kind of surface froth.

真正重要的是经济历史的洪流，阶级斗争，这才是决定历史的真正力量

But that what matters are the great tides of of economic history, of class warfare, that that is really what determines history.

所以任何认为伟大个人塑造历史的观点都是一种错觉

And so any notion that great individuals shape history is a is a is a delusion.

当然，我是说，关于汉斯·斯大林的首要地位存在各种悖论。

And of of course, I mean, there are all kinds of paradoxes of Hans Stalin's primacy.

但我认为在意识形态上，共产党人谈论伟人存在一个问题，但他们总是拥有这一点。

But I think that ideologically, there's a problem for communists with talking about great people But they always have it.

他们总是拥有这一点。

They always have it.

我是说，我们都看过红场游行中他们展示的那些场景。

I mean, we've all seen those in those Red Square parades where they have.

是啊。

Yeah.

你知道的，那些偶像。

You know, icons.

列宁像法老一样被木乃伊化保存。

Lenin literally mummified like a pharaoh.

没错。

Right.

我同意。

I agree.

确实存在悖论，但官方层面上。

There are there there are paradoxes, but officially.

这不是很有趣吗？

Isn't this interesting?

所以列宁的遗体现在被木乃伊化保存在红场，你知道，如果是为了新冠疫情，我们本可以直接在列宁墓进行这场直播的。

So Lenin's body mummified right now in Red Square, you know, if it went for COVID, we could go and be doing this live from Lenin's tomb.

这不又是亚历山大大帝的故事重演吗？

That's Alexander the Great again, all over again, isn't it?

他死后遗体被盗，被运到亚历山大城作为托勒密王朝——那个统治埃及的王朝——合法性的象征，基本上列宁的继任者也是这么处理他的遗体的。

His body was kidnapped after he died and taken to Alexandria as a sort of badge of authenticity for the Ptolemies, dynasty that took over Egypt, which is basically what Lenin's successors did with his body.

所以你这里只差‘大帝’这个词了。

So all you're missing there is the words the great.

是的。

Yes.

但但我觉得我我认为这表明人类存在一种内在的渴望，想要承认

But but I think I I think think what it suggests is that there is a kind of inherent desire on the on on humans to kind of acknowledge

嗯。

Yeah.

并且且且某种程度上自我挫败

And and and kind of frustrate yourselves

嗯。

Yeah.

在伟大这个概念面前。

Before the idea of greatness.

伟大的君王们。

Great kings.

但在现代世界，这种渴望与不愿表达它的矛盾心理相冲突。

But that, in the modern world, is is is in conflict with a reluctance to to express it.

而这这这正是共和体制的一部分。

And that that that's part of republics.

这是民主制度的一部分。

It's part of of of democracies.

这也绝对是共产主义国家的一部分。

It's and it's definitely part of kind of communist states.

但有趣的是，在现代社会中，那些相信伟大的人往往可以说更为坚定，

But what's so interesting is that so in the modern world, the people who believe in greatness tend to be, should we say, harder core than

是的。

Yes.

比那些不相信的人更坚定。

Than people who don't.

但即便是那些最理想主义的人，比如读《卫报》的素食主义者，不也暗中相信伟大吗？

But even sort of your most high minded sort of, I don't know, guardian reading vegan believes implicitly in greatness, don't they?

因为你要质疑的话，纳尔逊·曼德拉难道不伟大吗？

Because you have, I mean, to question, I mean, Nelson Mandela, Is he not great?

他难道不是那个超越时代的鼓舞人心的人物吗？

Is he not this inspirational figure who transcended his times and

该死的马丁·路德·金。

bloody Martin Luther King.

美国有马丁·路德·金纪念日。

They have Martin Luther King's day in America.

是的。

Yes.

好的。

Okay.

好的。

Okay.

如此这般，那正是一种对伟大之意的不同表达。

So so so so and that that that is a kind of different expression of what greatness is.

而我想，那应该是道德上的伟大。

And that, I guess, would be moral greatness.

不仅仅是道德上的伟大，对吧？

It's not just moral greatness, is it?

这是顺应历史潮流。

It's it's it's surfing the tide of history.

要知道，他站在了历史正确的一边，

It's, you know, he was on the side of history and

是啊。

his Yeah.

正义的轨迹。

The arc of justice.

对。

Yeah.

正义的轨迹。

The arc of justice.

巴拉克·奥巴马有一天也会被归入这类人物，不是吗？

That's Barack Obama will be in that in that sort of box one day, won't he?

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

但我认为这里存在一种质的差异，因为曼德拉的伟大之处在于他被视为道德上的伟人。

But I guess that there is a kind of qualitative difference there, because Mandela is seen as being great because he's seen as morally great.

甘地也是如此。

Same with And Gandhi.

没错，还有甘地。

Yes, and Gandhi.

而且这种伟大并非亚历山大式的模式

And it's not greatness in the kind of Alexander mold

但如果你是个孩子，假设一千年前左右，你出身贵族家庭，由僧侣抚养长大，难道不会被教导要效仿这些伟人吗？他们不仅拥有军事才能，更具道德品质——比如亚历山大就具备勇气和...

of But if you were a child, you would, thousand years ago or something, would you not grow and you were sort of noble parents or something, and you've grown up being taught by a monk, wouldn't you be taught that these great figures were people to emulate, that they had moral qualities as well as purely martial ones, that Alexander had courage and

嗯，我觉得这很有趣，因为一千年前的欧洲人对此事会持有非常基督教的视角。

Well, I I think that's interesting because actually a thousand years ago, if if if you're in Europe, you would have a very Christian perspective on this.

我认为修道院内部对君王存在深刻的矛盾心理。

And I think there is a deep ambivalence in in in monasteries, for instance, about kings.

确实。

Yeah.

史料中有线索表明，有些僧侣认为阿尔弗雷德可能过于强势。

Alfred is there there there are hints in the sources that there were monks who felt that Alfred was perhaps a little bit too pushy.

但另一方面，后世僧侣能将阿尔弗雷德奉为伟人，正是因为他被视为教会的重要赞助者。

But equally, there are you know, the part of of of why monks subsequently are able to enshrine Alfred as great is because he's seen as having been a great patron of the church.

基督教对亚历山大这类异教徒存在矛盾态度，他们显然被视为双手沾满鲜血的征服者。

There's a kind of but there is a Christian ambivalence towards figures like Alexander who are pagan, who are definitely seen as being steeped in blood.

我认为，将军事上的伟大等同于伟大本身，这种观念其实是我们继承自基督教对伟大矛盾态度的一种遗产。

The idea that of that martial greatness is the definition of greatness, I think, is a kind of legacy of of the kind of ambivalent Christian attitudes towards greatness that we've we've that that we've inherited.

所以这里有个明显受到马歇尔·格雷尼斯影响的人——丘吉尔。

So here's somebody who was definitely inspired by Marshall Grayness, Churchill.

没错，所以丘吉尔确实...

Right, so Churchill's really

关于丘吉尔，我们做上千期播客也说不完，公众热情也不会消退。

Now Churchill, we could do a billion podcasts about Churchill and not exhaust the of the stuff to be said or the public enthusiasm.

他伟大吗？

Is he great?

我想说其实他有缺陷，但谁没有呢？毕竟我们都是凡人。

I mean, I would say actually flawed, but I mean, everybody's flawed because we're all human.

我认为是的。

I would say yes.

我觉得否认他的伟大是荒谬的，他已成为国家象征的偶像，实际上所有缺陷都是伟大的一部分，因为我们讨论的每个伟人都有缺点。

I would say it's ludicrous to say he's not a great figure who has become an icon, who's become a symbol of the nation, who and actually, all the flaws are part of greatness because all everybody we've talked about has been flawed.

你觉得丘吉尔伟大吗？

Do you think Churchill was great?

是的。

Yeah.

我认为近期人们对丘吉尔的反应方式，恰恰凸显了'伟大'这个词含义的演变。

So I think I think that Churchill well, the the kind of way that people have been reacting to Churchill recently highlights the way in which the meaning of great has evolved, I think.

所以我认为丘吉尔在古典意义上确实是伟大的。

So I think Churchill is great in the classical sense of it.

他是一位伟人，在危机时刻拯救了自己的国家。

He is a great man who, in an hour of crisis, saves his country.

这很有希腊风格，不是吗？

That's something very Greek, isn't it?

是啊。

Yeah.

所以从这个意义上说，他之所以伟大，是因为尽管他个人有缺陷，但这些缺陷实际上反而凸显了他成就的非凡。是的。

So he's he's in that sense, he he is great because although he is personally flawed, those flaws actually only serve to emphasize the scale of his achievement Yeah.

在团结和拯救国家方面，甚至远不止于此。

In rallying and saving his country and and and indeed much more.

当时人们相信这一点，对吧？

People bought that at the time, didn't they?

我是说，在二十世纪四十年代人们知道什么。

I mean, in the nineteen forties knew what.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

所以他就是，你知道的，他就是不列颠之狮的化身。

So so he is, you know, he he he is the the British lion personified.

我认为现在他的雕像不断遭到攻击的原因之一，是人们对伟大的定义已经演变，变成了我们之前说的曼德拉或马丁·路德·金那种——伟大必须包含道德上的崇高。

I think that one of the reasons why his statue keeps getting attacked now is that the sense of greatness has evolved and become what we were saying what what is what I was saying about Mandela or Martin Luther King, that greatness, you have to be morally great.

没错。

Right.

而且我觉得有种观点认为，按照这个伟大标准来衡量，丘吉尔可能不太达标，因为他持有种族主义观点。

And I think that there's a feeling that Churchill on that measurement of greatness doesn't quite measure up because he has racist views.

你提到了历史的弧线。

You mentioned the arc of history.

他被视为在许多问题上站错队的人

He's seen as somebody who's on the wrong side of a lot

是的，从当时的角度看，他是个十足的反动派。

of Yes, mean, by the sense of the time, he was a huge reactionary.

对。

Yeah.

但在某种程度上，

But in a way, the

人们在他雕像上涂抹种族主义标签的事实恰恰证明了其伟大。

fact that people are sort of daubing racist on his statue is proof of greatness.

因为如果他不够伟大，谁会关心呢？

Because if he weren't great, I mean, who would care?

如果他只是个中层

If he was some sort of middle ranking