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如果你想获取更多节目内容，请加入'历史的余韵'俱乐部。
If you want more from the show, join the rest is history club.
随着圣诞节的临近，你还可以为你生命中的历史爱好者赠送一整年的会员资格作为礼物。
And with Christmas coming, you can also gift a whole year of access to the history lover in your life.
只需访问restishistory.com并点击礼物选项。
Just head to the restishistory.com and click gifts.
欢迎收听'历史的余韵'，我是多米尼克·桑德布鲁克，还有我的搭档——他自称汤姆·霍兰德。
Welcome to the rest is history with me, Dominic Sandbrook, and my sidekick or as he calls himself, Tom Holland.
汤姆，你好。
Tom, hello.
你好。
Hello.
新年快乐。
Happy New Year.
新年快乐。
Happy New Year.
我们现在还没到新年呢。
Now we are not yet in the New Year.
我们正在期待新年。我们非常关注那个B开头的词，就是过去五年左右人人都在谈论的——英国脱欧。
We're anticipating So the New we are very exercised, aren't we, about the b word, the word that's been on everybody's lips for the last five years or so, Brexit.
我们不知道接下来会发生什么，这非常令人兴奋，因为听众们将会知道。
And we don't know what's gonna happen, which is very exciting because our listeners will know.
当你们收听时就会知晓，但我们尚不确定是否会达成协议，英国是会勇往直前地开创其新未来，还是会陷入卡车堵塞道路的混乱局面以及其他种种困境。
You'll listen you'll know when you're listening to this, but we don't know whether there'll be a deal, whether Britain will have forged manfully into its new future, or whether we'll be, you know, blocked up with lorries on the roads and disaster and all the rest of it.
所以这其中有点冒险的成分，对吧，汤姆？
So there's an element of sort of jeopardy, isn't it, Tom?
非常刺激。
Very exciting.
确实非常非常刺激。
Very, very exciting indeed.
而且我认为在我们目前录制的节目中，我们几乎没提脱欧，这已经很英勇了。
And I think it's been heroic of us so far in the episodes we've done, barely to mention Brexit.
因为，我想从某种程度上说，关于脱欧的争论，无论你是支持离开还是留在欧盟，本质上都是关于历史的。
Because, I guess, in a way, the arguments about it, whether you are in in favor of leaving or remaining, was always about history.
而且
And
是的。
Yeah.
你说得对。
You're right.
它们一直都是关于历史的。
They have always been about history.
所以我们今天想重点讨论的是，过去几年辩论中人们所做的比较，将我们现在正在经历的英国脱欧与... 是的。
So that is what we thought we might focus on today is the comparisons that people have made in the debates over the past few years between the Brexit that we're we're going through now Yes.
以及历史上其他类似的'脱欧'案例。
And previous examples of Brexits.
因此
And so
在我们开始之前，得先声明一下——各位先别急着关掉节目——我们不会讨论英国脱欧是好是坏、为何发生这类问题。
Well, before we do that, we should quickly say before you all turn off, we are not going to have any degree of argument about or discussion about whether Brexit was a good thing or a bad thing or why we did it or anything like that.
对吧？我们会完全避开这些争议。
Are we, we're going to steer well clear of that.
而且我们会牢牢戴上历史学家的帽子。
And we're going to wear our historians hats very firmly.
其实我猜我们对脱欧的看法基本一致。
I actually suspect we don't really disagree about Brexit.
所以就算讨论起来也不会是期有趣的播客。
So, it wouldn't even be a very interesting podcast anyway.
不过我们要聊聊这些精彩的历史类比。
However, we're gonna talk about all these fascinating historical comparisons.
汤姆你想先开始吗？
And do you wanna go first, Tom?
我看你准备了一长串可能的相似案例。
I think you've got a colossal list of possible parallels.
是的。
Yes.
所以我整理出了我认为人们做过的最重要的10个比较。
So I've drawn up, what I think of the top 10 comparisons that people have made.
前10名
Top 10
英国脱欧。
Brexits.
十大脱欧事件
Top 10 Brexits.
跨越数个世纪，不，是跨越数千年
Over over the well, over the centuries, not just the centuries, over the millennia.
因为我的第一个脱欧事件是道格兰德被海啸淹没，那发生在8200年前
Because my first the very first Brexit is the drowning of Doggoland beneath the tsunami, which which happened eight thousand two hundred years ago.
当然，道格兰德就是英国最初与欧洲大陆相连的部分
And Doggerland, of course, was you know, Britain was originally attached to the continent.
随着冰河时代的结束，大量冰川融化流入海洋，导致海平面上升。
With the ending of the ice age, enormous amounts of ice gets, released into the sea, so the sea levels rise.
于是，这就形成了北海。
And so, this is the the results in the North Sea.
当时似乎发生了一场特殊的灾难，挪威附近出现了某种陆地滑坡。
And there seems to have been a particular kind of disaster, when, there were kind of land slips, by Norway.
巨大的海啸席卷而来，使不列颠成为一座岛屿。
Great tsunami burst across and leaves Britain an island.
我认为这是个相当根本性的事件，因为不列颠作为岛屿的地理特征几乎奠定了一切的基础。
And I guess that that is a fairly fundamental event because, the fact that Britain is an island means that geography kind of underpins pretty much everything.
是啊。
Yeah.
那你是否也认为不列颠的岛国身份是英国特性的根本要素？
And are you one of these people who thinks that Britain's island nation identity is sort of fundamental to Britishness?
你是这么想的吗？
Do you think that?
你相信这些说法吗？
Do you buy all that?
我确实认为，意识到我们与欧洲大陆仅一水之隔的意识是相当根本的。
I I do think that, the the the consciousness that we're separated from the mainland of Europe by that narrow strip of water is fairly fundamental.
而且我认为这恰恰催生了我们本期节目讨论的主题——那种'既想靠近又想疏远'的矛盾心理。
And I think that it generates exactly what we're talking about over this episode, which is this sense of push me, pull you that Yeah.
我们无法完全与欧洲大陆割裂，因为距离实在太近了。
We can't separate ourselves completely from the continent because we're too close to it.
但同样，我们内心总存在着想要疏远的冲动。
But, equally, we're we're the impulse to do that is always there.
是啊。
Yeah.
我认为这就是为什么我们会经历所有这些脱欧事件。
And I think that that is why we've had all these Brexits.
我能问个暴露我无知的问题吗？
Can I ask you a can I ask you a question that shows my ignorance?
就是关于狗岛的问题。
Just about the dog land question.
人类是什么时候来到不列颠的？
When did human beings come to Britain?
嗯，他们是分批迁徙而来的。
Well, they came in waves.
然后冰河时期来临，摧毁了一切，他们又撤退了。
And then the ice ages come and crunch and crash everything up, and they retreat.
之后他们又回来了。
And then they come back.
所以当时那里的人就与...你知道的...分离了，那些人是被迫的脱欧派，是什么时候？
So there were people there who were detached from you know, who were Brexiteers, involuntary Brexiteers when?
嗯，脱欧派指的是...
Well, Brexiteers to the
某种程度上说他们离开了不列颠。
extent that they exit Britain.
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yeah.
因此，有各种原始人类在英国定居，然后在冰期来临时撤退，之后又返回。
So that the there are kind of various hominids who who settle in Britain and then retreat when the ice comes down, and then they come back.
但基本上，自中石器时代以来，人类就一直在英国持续居住。
But, basically, people have have been continuously in Britain since the Mesolithic.
所以最初的居民是通过陆桥抵达英国的。
So they arrived in Britain, the original inhabitants, because there was this land bridge.
有趣的是，12月初有份报告指出，这次'狗地脱欧'可能比我们想象的稍晚发生，因为他们正在论证
And, interestingly, there was a kind of report early December that said that it it this Brexit, the dogland Brexit, may actually been kind of slightly more after than we'd imagined because there's they're they're they're arguing that
仍在单一市场内。
Still in the single market.
没错。
Yes.
那里曾有一些小岛屿残留，它们是逐渐沉没的。
That there were kind of little islands, that were left and that they only gradually sank.
所以这是一个稍微更漫长的脱欧过程。
So it was a a slightly more protracted Brexit.
这并不像人们假设的那样是一个硬脱欧。
It wasn't quite as hard a Brexit as as people had assumed.
总之，干得好。
Anyway, well done.
我们完成了Dogaland的讨论而没有开那个明显的玩笑，这很棒。
We've we've got we've done the we've we've done Dogaland without making the obvious joke, so that's excellent.
做得好。
Well done.
第二项，多米尼克，你有什么要分享的？
And number two, Dominic, what have you got for us?
第二项，有几个人提到了这个。
So number two, a few people brought this up.
他们问到了罗马。
So they asked about Rome.
比如奥利·辛普森提到，他们看到格雷林最近将欧盟比作罗马帝国——人多安全，道路优质等等。
So Ollie Simpson, for example, raised so they see Grayling had recently compared the EU with the Roman Empire, safety in numbers, quality roads, etcetera.
奥利·辛普森说，这显然是想让我们渴望成为其中一员。
Apparently, it's a bid to make us want to be part of it, says Ollie Simpson.
嗯，这确实是个有趣的角度。
Now, yeah, this is an interesting thing.
所以这更像是他们抛弃了我们，而非我们离开了他们。
So this isn't really us leaving them so much as them leaving us.
对吧？
Right?
按照儿童历史书里的说法，罗马人是在什么时候全部撤离不列颠的？
The Romans well, in in the sort of the sort of children's history book version of our past, the Romans all leave Britain in what?
是410年吗？
Is it 04/10?
他们应该是在04/10离开的吧？
Right about 04/10 they're meant to have left?
嗯，这个其实有两个版本。
Well, there there are two iterations of this.
因为我们还有安德鲁·谢尔顿以卡拉乌西乌斯的身份发表的评论。
Because we also have, Andrew Sheldon comments as Carausius.
卡拉乌西乌斯是一位罗马将军，他掌控着英吉利海峡的舰队，实际上宣布独立，自立为王。
And Carausius was, a a Roman general, who had control of the the fleet in the Channel, and he essentially grabs hold of Britain and a chunk of Northern Gaul and declares his independence.
这个事件经常被拿来和英国脱欧相比较。
And this has often been compared to Brexit.
但实际上，卡拉乌西乌斯并不想脱离罗马帝国。
But, actually, Caracas didn't want to leave the Roman Empire.
他本质上是想自己当罗马皇帝。
He essentially wanted to be Roman emperor himself.
所以我觉得这不能算数。
So I don't think that counts.
所以我们不包括那部分。
So we're not including that.
实际上，不列颠人确实离开了。
Actually, the Britons do leave.
就我们所知，他们确实主动
As far as we can tell, they do actively
罗马人离开了。
The Romans leave.
搞了个英国脱欧。
Do a Brexit.
不是。
No.
是不列颠人离开了。
The Britons leave.
如果他们有个，是的。
And if they have an yeah.
他们说大约是公元409年或410年，由于古代历史的典型特点，我们无法精确确定这个时间点。
They say so either 04/2009, four ten, as is typical with ancient history, we can't absolutely pin this down.
我们的一位历史学家，当代历史学家提到，不列颠人脱离了罗马统治，开始按照自己的方式生活，不再受罗马法律约束。
We had a historian says contemporary historian says that that the Britons defected from Roman rule and lived their own lives independent from Roman laws.
所以这听起来确实有点像英国脱欧。
So that does sound like a kind of Brexit.
史蒂夫·贝克的白日梦。
Steve Baker's fantasy.
他们随后似乎
They then seem
对此有些后悔了。
to have slightly repented it.
再次说明，虽然史料存在混乱，但不列颠人似乎确实写信给皇帝说：哇哦。
Again, if there are confusions around the sources, but it does seem the Britons write to the emperor and say, woah.
一切都乱套了。
Everything's going wrong.
拜托，我们能回到正题吗？此时帝国正处于崩溃边缘。
Please, can we come back By this point, the empire is kind of imploding.
于是皇帝回信说，你们只能靠自己了。
And so the emperor writes back and says, you're on your own.
你们得自己想办法。
You've gotta cope.
是啊。
Yeah.
然后一切都...我是说，必须承认五世纪的这场'脱欧'进展并不完全顺利。
And everything goes I mean, it has to be said that the the rate you know, this Brexit in the fifth century doesn't entirely go according to plan.
因为基本上整个经济体系都崩溃了。
Because, basically, the entire economy in place.
不过但是
Because But
这就是
this is the
罗马帝国是支撑不列颠经济运转的关键。
Roman Empire was what was what enabled the British economy to function.
但这与英国选择独特道路的脱欧不同，对吧？
But this isn't a Brexit as in Britain taking a unique path, though, is it?
因为，我的意思是，不列颠在这一时期末期（即古典时代晚期）的遭遇，与西班牙、高卢或西罗马帝国其他行省的命运如出一辙——它们都分崩离析了。
Because, I mean, what happened to Britain at the end of this period, in sort of late antiquity, is surely exactly what happened to Spain or, you know, Gaul or or any of the other kind of provinces of the Western Roman Empire, that they fragment.
即便我们想留在罗马帝国，西罗马帝国本身也已不复存在了。
And even if we wanted to stay in the Roman Empire, there was no Roman Empire in the West anymore to to be part of.
对吧？
Right?
我认为这有一定道理，但要知道罗马的衰亡过程横跨整个五世纪，持续了数十年。
I think I think that's kind of true, but this happened you know, the the the process of Rome's fall happens over several decades across the course of the tenth century.
这次事件发生得相当早。
This is pretty early.
其独特之处在于，正如历史学家所言，不列颠人主动做出了抛弃罗马法律和统治的决定。
And what is distinctive about it is that the, you know, as the historian says, that the Britons take a decision to cast off Roman laws, Roman rule.
我想罗马税吏才是关键所在。
And I guess Roman tax collectors, that's the the kind of the key the key fact.
但摆脱罗马税吏的同时，他们也失去了维持货币经济的能力。
But by casting off the Roman tax collectors, they're also casting off the ability to to have a a monetary economy.
本质上，货币消失了大约一、两百年甚至三百年，又回到了以物易物的状态。
And, essentially, coinage vanishes for, you know, hundred, two hundred years, three hundred years, and it's back to barter.
没错。
And Right.
这就像是留欧派眼中英国脱欧后最可怕的噩梦——我们只能围坐在一起用萝卜之类的东西以物易物。
That is kind of the you know, that is the remainer's worst nightmare for what might happen to Brexit Britain is that we all sit around bartering turnips and things.
确实如此。
So yeah.
所以我觉得这个观点相当有趣。
So I think that's I think that's that's quite an interesting one.
在我们继续之前，我有个小问题要问你。
Well, here's a quick question for you before we move on.
我认为罗马不列颠的终结是一个非常引人入胜的话题。
I think the the the end of Roman Britain is such a fascinating subject.
我们应该专门做一期播客来讨论它。
We should do a whole podcast on it.
但当时的人们有任何不列颠独特性的意识吗？
But do people have at that stage any sense of British distinctiveness?
肯定没有吧。
Surely, don't.
他们并不觉得自己是独特的，也不觉得自己与罗马帝国其他行省有什么不同
They don't feel that they are they are unique and they are separate from other provinces of the Roman Empire in a
不像西班牙或葡萄牙等地那样有明显区别。
way that is not true in Spain or in Portugal or or wherever.
嗯，这真的很难判断，因为我们几乎没有不列颠人留下的文字记载。
Well, it's it's really hard to know because we have so few we we have almost nothing written by Britons.
我认为不列颠的一个独特之处在于，比如，不列颠没有不列颠籍的元老院议员。
And I think that one of the things that is distinctive about Britain, for instance, Britain is there are no British senators.
而且高卢人中有一位不列颠诗人，高卢诗人对此嗤之以鼻。
And you have Gauls who there is a British poet, and a Gaulish poet laughs at the very idea of this.
所以很明显，即使在四、五世纪，人们也普遍认为不列颠人是乡巴佬、野蛮人、落后分子。
So you clearly have the sense, even, you know, fourth, fifth centuries, that the the Britons are bumpkins, are barbarians, are backward.
我认为不列颠在罗马帝国中的独特性及其脱离帝国的方式之一在于：不列颠并不使用拉丁语的某种变体。
And I think one of the measures of what makes Britain distinctive in the Roman Empire and the way that it leaves the Roman Empire is that in Britain, we do not speak a a form of Latin.
西班牙则不然。
You do in Spain.
在意大利确实如此。
You do in Italy.
在法国也是如此。
You do in in France.
在不列颠这里，我们讲的是日耳曼语。
In Britain here, we speak a Germanic language.
因此很明显，无论是关于不列颠作为行省与帝国其他地区的关系，还是关于不列颠脱离罗马统治的独特环境。
And so clearly, whether it's something about the relationship of Britain as a province to the rest of the empire or whether it's about the distinctive circumstances in which Britain ceases to be Roman.
但显然，我们不使用拉丁语系的语言这一事实，我认为正是衡量那次‘英国脱欧’事件有多么地动山摇的标准。
But clearly, the fact that we do not speak a form of Latin, I think, is the measure of just how seismic that that Brexit was.
所以我
So I
觉得这个例子很好。
think that's a good one.
那么我们就这么
So let's let's put that put that
现在确定下来。
right now.
这是肯定的，没错。
That's definite, yeah.
这算是个对勾，对吧？
That's a tick, isn't it?
这是个很好的例子，是的。
That's a that's a good Yeah.
嗯，虽然不像好的英国脱欧，但这是个强有力的类比。
Well, not like a good Brexit, but it's a powerful parallel.
下一个。
Next.
第三点，我认为我们应该重点关注约翰王的统治时期。
Number three, I think is let's let's flag up the reign of King John.
我们都同意。
We can all agree.
坏国王？
Bad king?
坏国王？
Bad king?
是的。
Yes.
我想可能是最糟糕的。
I think the worst, probably.
这个人似乎确实如众人所言那般恶劣。
A man who really does seem to have been as bad as everyone says he was.
这真是太好了，斯温德，那些陈词滥调和老套的说法竟然都是真的。
And it's so nice, Swender, where the cliches and the stereotypes turn out to be true.
所以他的'脱欧'事件分两波发生。
So his his Brexit takes comes in two waves.
他失去了从父亲那里继承的法国大陆领土。
So he loses the, lands that he has inherited from his father on the continent in France.
于是在1204年，他失去了诺曼底公国——这原本是征服者威廉传下来的遗产。
So in 12/00/2004, he loses the Duchy Of Normandy, which, of course, is an inheritance from William the Conqueror originally.
但他还失去了更南边的所有土地，即安茹帝国。
But he's also lost all the lands further south, the the Angevin Empire.
次年，坎特伯雷大主教去世，约翰推举了自己的人选。
Then the following year, the archbishop of Canterbury dies, and John has his candidate.
坎特伯雷的教士们也有他们的候选人，双方为此争论不休。
The canons at at Canterbury have their, candidate, and there's a kind of debate about that.
但教皇英诺森三世，这位堪称中世纪超级教皇的人物，拥有无上权威，极其重视自身权力。
But the pope, Innocent the third, who is kind of like the uber pope of the Middle Ages, he's incredibly powerful, very keen on his own authority.
他坚持要任命自己的人选——一个名叫斯蒂芬·兰顿的人。
He insists on posing his own candidate, a guy called Stephen Langton.
而约翰则拒绝让兰顿前来就任坎特伯雷大主教一职。
And John refuses to allow Langton to come and and claim the bishop the archbishopric of of Canterbury.
于是英诺森三世在1208年颁布了禁教令，实质上就是禁止一切宗教仪式。
So Innocent the third imposes an interdict on twelve o eight, which basically means no services.
1209年，他将约翰逐出教会。
12 o nine, he excommunicates John.
约翰说，好吧，无所谓。
John says, well, whatever.
你知道的，我很好。
You know, I'm fine.
这是一次艰难的脱欧。
It's had a hard Brexit.
你知道吗？
You know?
我会按照世贸组织条款进行贸易。
I will trade under WTO terms.
无所谓。
Whatever.
1213年，法国入侵的威胁出现了。
12/13, there is a threat of a French invasion.
突然间，约翰改变了主意，基本上主动求和。
And suddenly, John goes, oh, and he basically sues for term.
他通过谈判重新归顺。
He negotiates to come back in.
不仅如此，他还基本上将英格兰作为礼物献给了英诺森三世。
And not only that, but he basically makes a kind of gift of of England to, to to Innocent the third.
英格兰变成了某种教皇封地，就像我们经历了硬脱欧，然后一切都搞砸了。
It becomes kind of papal fiefdom, which is kind of like we have a hard Brexit, and then it all goes wrong.
而且，基本上我们不仅重新加入了欧盟，还采用了欧元，甚至变成了比利时的一个省之类的。
And, basically, we not only we rejoin the EU, but we sign up to the euro, and we become a a province of Belgium or something.
所以这是...我们找个人。
So it's it's And we look somebody.
这是巨大的耻辱。
It's a huge humiliation.
但从那时起，英诺森三世就把约翰视为盟友并站在约翰一边。
But and from that point on, Innocent the third is then regards John as basically an ally and takes John's side.
对。
Right.
他是法国国王。
He's the French king.
所以
So
所以现阶段我们遇到了...可以说是脱欧派最害怕的情况——出现了一个超级实体，也就是天主教会，对吧？
So at this stage, we have the interrupt we have the the well, we have the arrival of the sort of Brexiteers nightmare, which is the sort of super state, which is the Catholic church, right?
可以说，天主教会就像是加强版的欧盟。
So the Catholic church is the sort of EU with knobs on if you like.
英国是一个超国家组织的成员，该组织对事务拥有管辖权——我是说，这将成为我们下一个例子中即将出现的重大问题，不是吗？
Britain is part of a super national body that has authority over thing I mean, this is the big issue that's gonna come up later in our next example, isn't it?
是的。
Yes.
事实上，天主教会在英格兰的权威凌驾于国王之上。
The fact that the Catholic church has authority in England over and above the king.
没错。
Yes.
而且这有着古老的根源。
And and this has ancient roots.
我是说，这是教皇大格列高利派传教士到英格兰的渊源。
I mean, this is the pope, Gregory the Great, sends missionaries to to England.
随后还有来自爱尔兰的其他传教士，以及惠特比会议上那场著名的辩论。
And then you have other missionaries coming from Ireland, and you have this huge debate at the Synod of Whitby.
是的。
Yes.
靠。
Fuck.
惠特比会议的日期是什么时候？
What's the date of Synod of Whitby?
罪
Sin
我们需要知道这个。
We need to know that.
你没有WiFi吗
Don't have you got Wi Fi
在手边吗？
at hand?
等等
Hold
继续。
on.
然后在六月，你们有惠特比宗教会议，教会人士的集会，他们决定，你知道，我们要遵循凯尔特传统，还是罗马传统？
Then June, you have the synod at Whitby, a gathering of churchmen, and they decide, you know, are we going to go with the Celtic tradition, or are we going to go with the Roman tradition?
他们选择了罗马传统，我猜这相当于加入了共同市场。
They go with the Roman tradition, and I guess that's the equivalent of joining the common market.
所以，是的。
So that Yeah.
这是爱德华·希斯。
It's the Edward Heath.
盎格鲁-撒克逊的爱德华·希斯。
Anglo Saxon Edward Heath.
然后，当然还有诺曼征服。
And then, of course and then you have the Norman conquest.
所以在这两种方式下，我们、我们、我们、我们与罗马模式的基督教联系在一起。
So so in those two ways, we're we're we're we're joined to a a Roman model of Christianity.
然后，多亏了征服者威廉。
And then, thanks to William the Conqueror.
我们实际上被并入了一个以法国为中心的国家体系。
We're joined to a, essentially, a French state centered state.
约翰在位期间试图——我是说，约翰失去了诺曼底领地，并试图摆脱罗马的控制。
And John's reign sees an attempt to get well, I mean, John loses the Norman lands, and he tries to cast off the the Roman.
大约五百年间，我们的政治基本上都与法国纠缠不清，不是吗？
And for five hundred years or so, I mean, our politics is pretty much entangled with that of France, isn't it?
我的意思是，你无法将法国和英格兰这两个故事分开讲述。
I mean, you can't tell those two stories about France and England separately.
但所有这些基本上都引出了我认为与英国脱欧最相似的历史事件——即16世纪30年代的亨利宗教改革。
But all of this basically queues up what I think is the single biggest parallel with Brexit, which is the reformation, the Henrician reformation in the fifteen thirties.
这个例子就是——我知道作为历史学家你不能再提他的名字了。
So this is the example that I know you're no longer allowed to mention his name as a historian.
大卫·斯塔基曾将亨利八世称为'第一位脱欧派'。
David Starkey has I mean, he's described Henry the eighth as the first Brexiteer.
那是在16世纪30年代。
And it's in the fifteen thirties.
我觉得这一点非常引人注目，因为在16世纪30年代，议会首次宣布英格兰是一个帝国，英格兰自成一体，外国神父和主教的权威不适用于英格兰，国王才是英格兰教会的最高领袖和统治者，不列颠就是不列颠。
I mean, this seems so compelling to me because it's in the fifteen thirties that you first get parliament declaring that England is an empire, that England is its own thing, and the authority of foreign priests and prelates will not apply to England, and that it's the king who is the supreme head and governor of England's church, and that Britain is Britain.
抱歉。
Sorry.
英格兰是独特的，它拥有特殊的地位和特殊的使命。
England is distinctive, that it has an exceptional place and an exceptional destiny.
事实上后来当然就有了清教徒的观念，认为英格兰被上帝选中作为更纯粹基督教的载体，而欧洲大陆那些迷信的天主教东西，你知道的，敌基督、罗马主教之类的。
And in fact, later on, of course, you get the Puritan idea that England has been chosen by God as the sort of vehicle for a purer form of Christianity and that the continental superstitious Catholic stuff, the the, you know, the Antichrist, the Bishop of Rome, all of this kind of thing.
我觉得这对英格兰的身份认同——后来也包括苏格兰的身份认同——至关重要。
I mean, this feels to me so central in England's identity, later Scotland's identity.
是的。
Yeah.
嗯，斯科特因为你提到了不列颠——我是说，苏格兰宗教改革也是其中的一部分。
Well, Scott because you said Britain I mean, Scott it is a Scottish reformation as well.
是的。
Yes.
你知道，他们正在捣毁修道院。
You know, they're smashing up abbeys.
有个令人难以置信的细节，他们甚至四处拔除僧侣们种的花，这真的
And I kind of incredible detail that they even went around picking up all the flowers that the monks had planted, which really is
这可真是注重细节啊，不是吗？
That's attention to detail, isn't it?
确实如此。
It really is.
是的。
Yes.
我是说，这就是典型的例子，对吧？
I mean, this is the this is the the classic one, isn't it?
你相信这种说法吗？
And do you buy that?
我是说，我认为这件事在英国对自身的认知上留下了如此深刻的印记，一种英国式的差异感。
I mean, I think I think it this left such a massive imprint in England's sense of itself, an England sense of difference.
当然，随后西班牙无敌舰队、火药阴谋等事件又进一步强化了这种认知。
And then, of course, that's compounded by the Spanish Armada and the gunpowder plot and all of these kinds of things.
而且我认为，要论证英国对自身独特性的认知与...的这种联系，其实并不算太过牵强。
And I think, you know, I don't actually think it's a massive stretch to argue that that Britain's sense of its own distinctiveness vis a vis the
欧盟在某种程度上与我们在16世纪的历史有着模糊的心理联系。
EU has some vague psychological connection to our history in the sixteenth century.
我认为确实如此。
I think that's true.
但如果我们讨论的是否存在某种相似性——宗教改革研究权威戴蒙·麦卡洛克就指出，脱欧当然是英国特有的现象。
But if we're talking about whether it's a a a parallel so Damon McCulloch, great historian of the Reformation, His point is that Brexit, of course, is distinctively British.
英国是唯一考虑退出欧盟的国家，而宗教改革显然是泛欧洲的事件。
Britain is the only country that's even thinking about leaving the European Union, whereas the Reformation is obviously a pan European thing.
确实。
And Yes.
亨利的宗教改革是跟随德国正在发生的变革而进行的。
Henry's Reformation follows in the wake of what's been going on in Germany.
它将深受瑞士所发生事件的影响。
It will be hugely influenced by what happens in Switzerland.
在伊丽莎白一世时期，英格兰的新教徒与荷兰共和国有盟友关系。
It happened in, you know, under Elizabeth the first, the Protestants in England have allies in the Dutch Republic.
所以这实际上是一种国际性的运动。
So this is a kind of international effort.
这是否让事情变得复杂了呢？你觉得呢？
So perhaps whether that muddies the water, do you think?
确实让情况变得有点复杂了，不是吗？
Well, it does muddy the waters a bit, doesn't it?
因为你说得对，宗教改革是被引入英格兰的。
Because you're right that the Reformation was imported into England.
我的意思是，它确实是以小册子、圣经这类形式被直接引入的。
I mean, was literally imported in the form of sort of pamphlets and Bibles and this sort of stuff.
但我想它也有鲜明的英格兰特色，原因有二。
But I guess it also had a distinctively English cast for two reasons.
其一，显然是由亨利和他与妻子们的纠葛所引发的。
One, it was obviously generated by Henry and his carry on with his wives.
若不是因为安妮·博林等人，我们可能就会走更偏向法国的路线。
Had it not been for Anne Boleyn and whatnot, then maybe we would have gone down a much more French line.
新教在英格兰的成功并非必然。
There's no reason why Protestantism was inevitably gonna succeed in England.
还因为在英格兰，宗教改革与君主制紧密相连，对吧？
But also because in England, it's bound up with the monarchy, isn't it?
我是说，英格兰的新教与某种爱国忠诚——对国家的那种忠诚——紧密交织。
I mean, there's so Protestantism in England becomes bound up with a kind of patriotic loyalty to the states Yeah.
这种关联在德国或瑞士等其他地方可能就没那么明显。
In a way that's maybe not quite the case in Germany or in some of these other places, in Switzerland or something.
而这正好引出了我们的下一个'脱欧'话题——我想我们可以谈谈克伦威尔时期的护国公政体。
And that, in turn, queues up our next Brexit, which I think we could the the protectorate under Cromwell.
是的。
Yeah.
这一事件由查理一世的处决所引发。
Which is ushered in by the execution of Charles the first.
你刚才谈到君主在宗教改革中所扮演的神圣角色。
And you were talking about the kind of sacral role that the monarch plays in the reformation.
但当然，通过砍掉国王的头颅，英格兰的革命者实际上是在对整个欧洲竖起中指。
But, of course, by chopping off a king's head, the revolutionaries in England are really, really flicking a v sign at the whole of Europe.
没错。
Yes.
我认为到这个阶段，你确实可以看到...我是说亨利八世在1530年代，他采纳这些宗教改革的论点主要是因为这些对他有利，能让他变得富有。
And I think by this stage, what you definitely have so I I I think Henry, you know, Henry clearly, Henry the eighth in the fifteen thirties, he he picked up these sort of reformation arguments because they suited him, because they would make him rich.
他能得到修道院的全部财产，还能娶到他想要的妻子。
He'd be able to get all the monasteries money and because he would get, you know, the wife he wanted.
但我认为17世纪与16世纪的不同之处在于，前者具有更深刻、更真实的意识形态独特性认同，不是吗？
But I think what you have in the seventeenth century that is distinctive from the sixteenth century is you have a much more profound, a genuine ideological sense of distinctiveness, don't you?
像奥利弗·克伦威尔这样的人，他真心认为英格兰是上帝选中的国度，是新耶路撒冷，肩负着引领世界或任世界沉沦而独善其身的特殊使命。
So somebody like Oliver Cromwell, he really thinks that England has been chosen by God, that it is the new Jerusalem, that England has this sort of unique fate to lead the rest of the world, or maybe to to to let the rest of the world sink into depravity while it becomes this sort of pristine Yeah.
应许之地。
Promised land.
我认为这种思想在前一个世纪并不明显。
And I think that's that's not quite there in the the century before that.
我想脱欧派中确实存在一种期待，希望英国脱欧能引发连锁反应，使英国的举措成为某种典范。
I guess there is an I mean, there's a strand in among Brexiteers who, I guess, had hoped that Brexit would set up a chain reaction, that what Britain has done would serve as a kind of model.
而欧盟对脱欧的诸多政策，显然是为了防止这种局面发生。
And I guess a lot of the European Union's policy towards Brexit has been a determination not to allow that to happen.
但在护国公时期，支持者确实希望英格兰能成为一盏明灯，帮助深陷教皇制黑暗的欧洲大陆发现上帝的真理。
But that was certainly something under the protectorate that enthusiasts for it hoped that England would serve as a kind of light to help a European continent benighted with popery and whatever discover the truth of God.
在这个话题下，我们收到帕特·罗伯茨关于文学大家的推文，
And in that context, as we've got an interesting tweet from Pat Roberts, who's talking about great writers in in his literature.
他写道：'笛福留，斯威夫特走；拜伦留，布莱克走；萨克雷留，特罗洛普走；弗吉尼亚·伍尔夫留，阿诺德·本涅特走。'
He says, Defoe remains, Swift leave, Byron remain, Blake leave, Thackeray remain, Trollope leave, Virginia Woolf remain, Arnold Bennett leave.
但在最上面，他写着莎士比亚留下，弥尔顿离开。
But at the top, he's got Shakespeare remain and Milton leave.
当然，弥尔顿是克伦威尔的人。
And, of course, Milton is Cromwell's Yeah.
秘书。
Secretary.
他本质上是在向欧洲人民发言，解释英国脱欧，如果你想这么理解的话。
He's the guy who is essentially speaking to the people of Europe, explaining Brexit, if you want.
用这些词来说。
Put it in those.
解释发生了什么，为什么这么做，并且确实希望这里发生的事能照亮欧洲其他地区。
Explaining what's been happened, why it's been done, and definitely kind of hoping that that what's going on here will serve to kind of light the the the rest of Europe.
所以他们有点自负。
So kind of they're they're vain.
我认同弥尔顿作为夏娃的形象。
I buy Milton as an eve.
莎士比亚嘛，我猜我会认为他是留欧派，但我觉得他不像是会为民众投票的人。
Shakespeare I I suppose I'd buy Shakespeare as a remainer, but he's probably I don't see him as a people's voter.
不是。
No.
我不认为莎士比亚会参与投票。
I don't think Shakespeare would have voted.
我觉得...我是说，福斯塔夫不就是个杠杆人物吗？
I think he I think I mean, Fullstaff is a lever, isn't he?
是啊。
Yeah.
但福斯塔夫最终被抛弃了。
But Fullstaff gets rejected.
我是说，后来亨利五世还入侵了法国呢。
I mean, and Henry the fifth, who then goes on invades France.
没错。
Yeah.
他——他获得了压倒性支持。
He's he's massively favored.
欧盟。
The European Union.
他只是想掌控它。
He just he wants to run it.
是的。
Yes.
好吧，说到这里，我想我们应该——要不要先休息一下，再继续讨论接下来的第二部分内容
Well, on that note, I think we should should we take a break before we get involved with the next the second tranche of our
好的。
Yes.
因为我们已经完成了第一到第五部分。
Because we've we've done one to five.
所以稍后回来，我们将继续第六到第十部分。
So come back, and we'll get from six to ten.
欢迎回到《历史的余韵》，我是多米尼克·山姆里克，汤姆·霍兰德，我们将继续探讨脱欧的历史相似性。
Welcome back to The Rest is History with me, Dominic Samrick, Tom Holland, and we are talking about Brexit parallels.
汤姆，我一直对'全球英国'这个概念很感兴趣，这是脱欧派特别热衷的理念。
Now, one thing that's always interested me, Tom, is this stuff about global Britain, which is so popular with Brexiteers.
他们认为我们应该把目光从佛兰德斯的泥泞战场转向辽阔海洋，望向新加坡、前殖民地这些地方。
So they believe, you know, we should lift our heads from the muddy fields of Flanders and look to the wide open seas and to Singapore and our former colonies and all this kind of business.
我想其中的关键节点——或许是最能体现英国作为全球性实体的时刻——就是七年战争。
And I guess a key moment in that, probably the key moment in it actually in the sense of Britain being a global enterprise is the Seven Years' War.
也就是1756年到1763年期间。
So that's 1756 to 1763.
那是个转折点，你可以看到英国开始形成作为世界强国的自我认知。
And that's a moment I think when you can see Britain getting a slightly different sense of itself as a world power.
我们的疆域拓展到了南大西洋、太平洋、加拿大，尤其是印度这些地方。
You know, our frontiers are in the South Atlantic and the Pacific and in Canada and so on in India, India particularly.
你认为这对我们的自我认知、对英国国际地位的定位来说是个关键转折吗？
Do you think that's a key moment in our sense of ourselves and our sort of sense of Britain's place
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在世界上的地位？
in the world?
是的。
Yes.
英国，正如你所说，正处于战争状态，尤其是与法国。
Britain is, I mean, as you say, is at war, particularly with France.
所以这是个反复出现的主题。
So recurring theme.
没错。
Yeah.
当然，英国在欧洲大陆确实有盟友，最著名的是腓特烈大帝。
And, of course, Britain does have allies on the continent, notably, Frederick the Great.
而且，当然，英国的国王同时也是汉诺威的选帝侯。
But ascent and and, of course, the the king of England, king of Britain, is, also the elect of Hanover.
所以你看，英国并没有完全与欧洲大陆隔绝。
So so there are you know, Britain isn't completely cut off from the continent.
但基本上，这是英国首次将主要战场放在北美、加拿大、印度以及海洋上，正如你所说。
But, basically, it's the first time where the the main theaters of war are for Britain, as you say, on in North America, Canada, India, on the ocean.
我确实认为，这对于确立'英国面向海洋'这一观念相当重要。
And I do think that that kind of establish that that is kind of quite important for establishing this idea that Britain looks to the seas.
当然，推动这一观念的不仅仅是英国脱欧派。
And, of course, it isn't only Brexiteers who have pushed that.
戴高乐将军也是如此。
General de Gaulle did as well.
他否决英国申请加入的理由就是英国面向海洋。
I mean, that was the reason he gave for for vetoing Britain's application was that Britain looks to the seas.
我认为，那种认为脱欧是因为脱欧派想恢复大英帝国的观点，一直是留欧派敌视脱欧的重要论调之一。
Think I mean, I think the the idea that Brexit happened because levers wanted to restore the British empire, I think, has been quite an important strand in remain hostility to Brexit.
嗯。
Yeah.
所以个人认为这种观点站不住脚。
So I don't think it's very well founded, personally.
如果你看看民调，我不认为人们有任何...我是说，人们根本对英帝国一无所知。
Don't think if you look at polls, I don't believe that people have any I mean, people don't know anything about the British Empire at all.
不。
No.
我认为这更像是'小英格兰'而非'全球英国'。
I think it's it's much more Little England than global Britain.
他们退缩到霍比特人的洞穴里。
They retreat to hobbit holes.
是啊。
Yeah.
夏尔居民。
Shire folk.
对。
Yeah.
但我认为某种程度上，全球化主义者关于英国面向海洋的论点，留欧派关于这一切都关乎帝国的论点，七年战争确实是个关键时刻——突然间英国的主要关注点从欧洲大陆转向了更广阔的海洋。
But but I think that that to the degree that, you know, the goalist argument that Britain looks to the seas, the the remainder argument that this is all about empire, Seven Years' War is a kind of crucial moment where suddenly Britain's main focus is moving from the continent to the broader sea.
所以我认为这是个不错的观点。
So I think that's a good one.
我认为
I think that's
你读过布伦丹·西姆斯写的那本关于七年战争的精彩历史著作吗？
Have have you read there's a great there's a history of the Seven Years' War by a folk called Brendan Sims.
如果你还记得的话，那本书大约有7000页那么厚。
If you remember this, it's about 7,000 pages long.
布伦丹·西姆斯的论点始终是——而且他完全不同意我们刚才的观点。
And Brendan Sims' argument was always and Brendan Sims completely disagrees with what we've just said.
他说英国的重点始终在欧洲，英国更关心欧洲而非这个帝国。
He says Britain's focus was always Europe, and Britain always cared more about Europe than this empire.
但他在历史学家中是个有争议的人物，几年前就在欧盟公投前，当他说相信英国即将发挥领导作用并将成为某种欧盟德国统一进程的压力时，他在我心目中的可信度略有下降。
But he's sort of he's a controversial figure among historians, his credibility was slightly damaged for me a couple of years ago just before the EU referendum when he said that this he believed Britain was about to play a leading role than you and would be the pressure of sort of German unification of the EU.
是的。
Yes.
这个被欧洲其他各国所憎恶与蔑视的欧洲弃儿。
The European outcast loathed and despised by everybody else in Europe.
嗯，或许应该说...我认为布兰登·西姆斯是一位非常有趣的作家，特别是在
Well, maybe it came to I think Brendan Sims is really interesting writer, I think, on
是啊。
Yeah.
英国与欧洲的关系，以及爱尔兰与英国的关系，还有这整个关联体系方面。
Britain's relationship to Europe and Ireland's relationship to Britain and the whole nexus.
好吧，我们稍后再谈爱尔兰。
Well, we'll come back to Ireland.
让我们回到
Let's come back
爱尔兰的话题。
to Ireland.
我们会的。
We will.
因为我们还有另一场重大的法英冲突即将到来，不是吗？
Because we've got another big Franco Anglo Franco dust up to come, haven't we?
那当然就是拿破仑战争。
Which is, of course, the Napoleonic Wars.
所以它排在第七位。
So that that is coming in at number seven.
基本上，这是一次强加给英国的'脱欧'，因为拿破仑已征服了整个欧洲大陆，实施大陆封锁政策禁止英国商品进入欧洲市场，而英国陆军也无法在欧洲大陆任何地方登陆——当然，葡萄牙除外。
And, basically, this is a Brexit that is forced on Britain because Napoleon has conquered the whole of Continental Europe, enforces continental system where British goods are not allowed to enter European markets, and British Army is unable to to land anywhere on the mainland, except, of course, for Portugal.
是的。
Yeah.
半岛战争。
The Peninsula War.
这场试图逆转'脱欧'的行动，我想最终以滑铁卢战役告终。
The attempt to reverse Brexit, which culminates ultimately at Waterloo, I guess.
没错。
Yeah.
不过这次情况似乎反过来了，不是吗？
And this is sort of going the other way though, isn't it?
因为我们迫切想进入欧洲市场，对吧。
Because we're we're keen to get into Europe just Yeah.
以一种非常武装的方式。
In a very armed way.
而拿破仑想把我们挡在外面。
And Napoleon wants to keep us out.
所以在这个类比里他就是戴高乐，我想。
So he's de Gaulle in this analogy, I suppose.
对。
Yeah.
我认为法国对英国的猜疑，以及将英国排除在共同市场之外的愿望，显然是个重要主题。
I think I I mean, I think that the the French suspicion of of Britain and the desire to exclude Britain from, from the common market was obviously a a huge theme.
目前看来确实如此——当然我们是在录制这段对话。
And it does seem at the moment and, obviously, we're recording this.
我们不知道最终能否达成协议。
We don't know how whether there's gonna be a deal or not.
但目前看来，阻止协议达成的主要欧洲大陆领导人是马克龙总统。
But it does seem that the main, continental leader blocking a deal is president Macron.
所以这里显然存在着相当深层次的历史根源。
So there are clearly kind of quite deep roots here.
嗯，这就像是蝎子与青蛙的故事，不是吗？
Well, this is the sort of frog and scorpion, isn't it?
你知道，你知道，你为什么要蛰我之类的？
You know, why did you did you sting me or whatever it is?
是的。
Yes.
因为这就是我的天性。
Because it's in my nature.
我是说，法国人如果不这样就不是法国人了。我的意思是，让他们轻易放行并祝福我们，那就不对了。
I mean, the the the French wouldn't be the French if I mean, it wouldn't be right for them to just just wave it through and wish us the best.
我是说，那样他们就不是真实的自己了。
I mean, that wouldn't be they wouldn't be being true to themselves.
而且我认为政府当时说他们要扣押法国的炸鱼薯条船，还动员海军之类的。
And I think I think the the the way that the government was saying how they're going to board French fish and chips and they're mobilizing the navy and everything.
很多评论说这太荒谬了，简直是虚张声势。
And and lots of comments saying this is ridiculous, say saber rattling.
但显然，实际上我认为英国国内有相当一部分人持这种观点。
But, obviously, actually, I think quite a substratum of opinion in Britain.
非常热衷于派错海军进入英吉利海峡对抗法国人的想法。
Quite keen on the idea of sending the wrong navy into the channel against the French.
我正想说，肯定有相当大比例的人从政时都幻想过，有朝一日能调动海军对抗法国人。
I was about to say, there must be quite a a large proportion of people who go into politics who fantasize that at some point, they'll be able to mobilize the the navy against the French.
对吧？
Right?
我是说，这本来就是人们从政的初衷。
I mean, that's why you go into politics in the first place.
这正是人们观看加文·威廉姆森时那种隐隐的担忧。
That is the kind of the dark anxiety of anyone watching Gavin Williamson.
是的。
Yes.
但这里有个最近的有趣观点，汤姆，拿破仑在英国人的想象中占据着重要地位。
But here's the recent interesting point here, Tom, which is that Napoleon, you know, he exercised this huge sort of, he had this big role in the British imagination.
某种程度上，拿破仑法典、十进制改革，拿破仑被视为开明专制者，他某种程度上被理性和重构事物的信念所驱动。
And there was always a sense in which, you know, the Napoleonic codes and decimalization, and Napoleon sort of, Napoleon is this enlightened despot, who to some degree is driven by a belief in reason and a belief in reordering things and a more rational way of doing things.
而英国始终自视为与之格格不入。
And the Britain has always seen itself as apart from that.
没错。
Yeah.
以十进制为例，这个拿破仑时代的创新，英国基本上抗拒了一个多世纪。
So, I mean, decimalization is a very good example of a Napoleonic innovation from which Britain stood aloof for, you know, for more than a century, basically.
我曾写过一篇专栏，标题是...
I once wrote a column which had the headline.
我记得标题大概是'多米尼克·桑布鲁克回顾英国失去民族灵魂的时刻'
Think I it said something like Dominic Sambrook looks back on the moment Britain lost its national soul.
而且
And
这没什么值得骄傲的
It's nothing to be proud of.
我真不敢相信你居然
I can't believe you're
翻出这个旧账
breaking out that.
那篇文章讲的是我们采用十进制货币的那一刻
And it was about the moment that we adopted a decimal currency.
是啊
Yeah.
你就是新一代的威灵顿公爵
You are the new Duke of Wellington.
你根本没把这些古旧的无稽之谈听进去。
You're not taking any of that in a palaeonic nonsense.
所以这个还挺不错的。
So that's quite a good one.
我是说，这某种程度上...这...这...这完全颠倒了立场，因为这次是我们想加入却被拒之门外。
I mean, that's kind of it's it's it's a it's, it stands us on its head because that's us wanting to join and not being allowed to.
总之，拿破仑战争排在第七位。
Anyway, so Napoleon Wars is number seven.
那么，是的。
So Yeah.
第八位是什么？
What have we got at eight?
庆祝辉煌的孤立主义。
Celebrate is splendid isolation.
我想这算不上什么重要时刻。
And I suppose this isn't a moment.
这更像是一种主题，不是吗？
This is more of a sort of theme, isn't it?
这是十九世纪末期的情形。
This is the sort of late nineteenth century.
英国自认为现在已明确成为头号国家。
Britain sees itself as we're now quite clearly top nation.
我们拥有帝国。
We have the empire.
帝国在英国的政治想象中占据了巨大地位。
The empire assumes this sort of colossal role in Britain's political imagination.
保卫印度是我们的首要任务。
The defense of India is our leading priority.
对于像索尔兹伯里勋爵这样的保守党首相——十九世纪末、二十世纪初的首相——他们认为英国应避免国际纷争，保持超然立场。
And for people like Lord Salisbury, the Tory prime minister at the end of the nineteenth, thirtieth, twentieth century, this sense that Britain should avoid international entanglement should stand apart.
例如普法战争，我们在第一次世界大战播客中讨论过，那发生在1870至1871年间。
So for example, the Franco Prussian war, which we talked about in our first world war podcast, that happens in eighteen seventy, seventy one.
英国绝无可能卷入其中。
There's no question of Britain getting involved in it.
我认为，在19世纪末的英国，有一种相当强烈的感觉，即英国在某种程度上超越了欧洲那些琐碎的联盟政治。
And there's a sense, I think, quite a strong sense in late nineteenth century Britain, that Britain is somehow above European, sort of petty European alliance politics.
当然，事实证明了这一点。
Of course, that was proven the case.
但我认为，这种孤立主义在心理上再次留下了深刻的烙印，人们至今仍受其影响。
But I think that, again, psychologically has left a deep imprint, and that people still, this sort of isolationism.
是的。
Yeah.
这有点像英吉利海峡被迷雾笼罩，与欧洲大陆隔绝。
It's kind of fogging the Channel Continent cut off.
与欧洲大陆隔绝。
Continent cut off.
正是如此。
Exactly.
是的。
Yes.
确实如此。
Exactly.
我认为，你看，我们在第一次世界大战时就看到了这种想法有多么错误，当时我们做的恰恰与脱欧相反。
And I think, you know, we saw how wrong that was with the First World War when, you know, we did the very opposite of a Brexit.
我们全力参与了进去。
We piled in.
但汤姆，我认为这种想象留下了非常深远的影响，你不觉得吗？
But I think imaginatively, Tom, that's left a very long legacy, don't you?
嗯，难道不是几乎所有情况下，当你以为存在某种悠久历史传统时，结果发现都是维多利亚时代的人发明的吗？
Well, isn't it the case that almost invariably, where you think there's a long historical tradition, it turns out to have been invented by the Victorians?
可能我们一直在讨论的所有内容——英国作为岛国那种独立独特的感受，以及激发脱欧投票的一切——本质上都是维多利亚晚期自我认知的遗产。
And it it may be that everything that we've been talking about, this kind of sense of Britain being an island and separate and distinct and everything that animated the Brexit vote is basically a legacy of that late Victorian sense of itself.
那时候...是的。
When Yeah.
当时，你知道，当我们确实因为拥有海军而处于某种孤立状态时。
When, you know, when when we really were kind of isolated because we have the navy.
所以没有我们的允许，没人能跨海而来。
So nobody could cross the sea without our permission.
而且我们的投资都是全球性的。
And we our our investments were all global.
我认为，或许，你知道，这种思维方式可能是某种延续下来的东西。
And I think that that that that perhaps, you know, the the cast of thought, maybe that is something that lingers.
不知道。
Don't know.
是的。
Yeah.
不。
No.
我认为确实如此。
I think it does.
我认为是那种
I think it's that sort
这种感觉，不是吗？布宜诺斯艾利斯的人们打橄榄球、谈论牛肉，而英国已成为一个更加全球化的企业，比利时和卢森堡等国的政治格局相比之下显得如此微不足道。
of sense, isn't it, that there's sort of people in Buenos Aires playing rugby and talking about beef, and that Britain has some has become this much more global enterprise, and that the politics of Belgium and Luxembourg and whatnot seems such small scale.
虽然，我的意思是，英国是比利时的担保国。
Although, I mean, Britain acts as a guarantor for Belgium.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Of course.
而且这实际上是在与俾斯麦谈判。
And and this really and is negotiating with Bismarck.
所以英国并不像...我是说，我们并不像挪威那样孤立。
And so so Britain isn't in I mean, we're not as goriously isolated as No.
不。
No.
也许
Perhaps
这个，这个神话会这么认为。
the, the myth would have it.
光荣孤立更像是一种向往，而非现实。
The gorious isolation is more it it's a sort of it's an aspiration, I think, much as a reality.
是的。
Yeah.
而且，你知道，我们之前谈到历史学家布伦丹·西姆斯，他会说这些都是无稽之谈，实际上英国一直与欧洲政治深度纠缠。
And, you know, we were talking about the historian, Brendan Sims, he would say, this is all rubbish and actually Britain was always profoundly entangled with European politics.
这就是这个主题的魅力所在，不是吗？
Mean, that's the fascination of this subject, isn't it?
实际上这与各派支持者的激烈争论截然不同。
It's actually quite apart from the sort of ranting and raving of the various partisans.
这个话题如此引人入胜，因为英国就像俄罗斯一样，始终处于这种境地——它显然是欧洲大陆体系的一部分，属于欧洲，却又同时感到自己被拉扯着远离欧洲。
It's such a fascinating subject because rather like I think rather like Russia, Britain has always been in this position where it is clearly part of the continental system and part of Europe, and yet at the same time feels itself pulled away from it.
而这种
And that
矛盾永远无法化解。
will never be resolved.
所有这些历史事件的影响，就像双重齿轮般不断加剧这种状态。
And and the effect of all these historical episodes is to kind of double ratchet it up.
因为在当下，这种感受始终存在。
Because in the present, there is this sense.
而后又被对历史运作方式的扭曲神话和记忆所强化、加速。
And then it gets enhanced and turbocharged by kind of distorted myths and memories of how the past had operated.
不过双方都是如此。
On both sides, though.
双方都是。
On both sides.
所以脱欧派认为我们一直与众不同，而留欧派则说，哦不。
So the Brexiteers think that we've always been different, and remainers say, oh, no.
你们从来都是完全的欧洲人。
You've always been complete European.
你们有过欧洲君主等等等等。
You had European monarchs and blah blah blah blah.
而双方确实...
And they both yeah.
就像你说的，他们都加倍沉迷于这种历史神话的构建。
As you say, they, they sort of double down on the on the sort of historical myth making.
说到历史神话构建，我们现在来到第九点。
And talking of historical myth making, we now come to number nine.
这个略有不同，是由帕特·罗伯茨的一条推文引发的，他说'ERG对抗特蕾莎·梅'。
This is slightly different, and is prompted by a a tweet from Pat Roberts, who says the ERG versus Theresa May.
所以ERG——那些斯巴达式的强硬脱欧派——对抗特蕾莎·梅，就像是德瓦莱拉对抗迈克尔·柯林斯。
So the ERG, the the kind of the Spartan the Spartans, the peep the hardcore Brexiteers versus Theresa May is de Valera versus Michael Collins.
你们真的算脱离了吗？如果还在宣誓效忠的话？
Are you really leaving if you're still taking the oath?
这里指的不是英国脱离欧洲，而是爱尔兰脱离联合王国。
So that's a reference to not Britain leaving Europe, but Ireland leaving The United Kingdom.
嗯。
And Yeah.
我觉得这个例子很有意思，因为爱尔兰脱离联合王国时，实际上是离开了一个类似单一市场的体系。
I think that is a kind of interesting one because Ireland leaving The United Kingdom, it was leaving a kind of single market.
没错。
Yes.
脱离了一个国家联盟。
Leaving a union of nations.
当时所有人都说这会造成经济灾难，但他们还是坚持脱离，结果确实在经济上遭遇了困难。
Everyone said this will be economically disastrous, went ahead anyway, did turn out to be economically difficult.
对爱尔兰来说，其中一个困境就是它基本上仍处于英国经济的引力范围内。
And one of the things that that was difficult for Ireland was that it basically remained within the tractor beam of the British economy.
是的。
Yes.
确实如此，直到加入共同市场之前都是这样。
Really, right the way up until joining the common market.
我想留欧派的论点就是这将成为英国的命运——我们可能在形式上脱离欧盟，但我们的经济实力不足以摆脱其引力束缚。
And I guess that the the remain argument is that that will be the fate of Britain, that that we may formally leave the European Union, but our economy will not be strong enough to escape the tractor beam.
因此实际上，我们将处于依赖状态却失去话语权。
So effectively, we will be dependent but without any say.
这也是当年反对爱尔兰独立的论点。
And so that was the argument against Irish independence.
嗯，现在也是这个论点。
Well, is the argument.
但汤姆，我认为这事还有另一个层面——人们经常谈论英国重新加入欧盟。
But also there's another dimension to it, Tom, which is I think that people often talk about Britain rejoining the EU.
他们大概会说：你们会意识到自己的错误，我们也会意识到我们的错误，然后我们就重新回归。
They sort of say, well, you'll realize your mistake, and we'll realize our mistake, and we will go back.
但在爱尔兰，情况很快就发生了变化。
But of course, very quickly in Ireland.
我是说，爱尔兰国内关于是否脱离英国曾有过大量辩论。
I mean, there had been a lot of debate within Ireland about whether to leave The UK.
但一旦决定做出——我认为任何从联盟中脱离或独立的情况都是如此——
But once the decision was made, and I think this is always the case when somebody secedes from a union or becomes independent.
决定一旦做出，就会极快地成为既定事实，想要逆转变得极其困难。
Once the decision is made, it becomes the status quo incredibly quickly, and it becomes very, very hard to roll back.
所以如果你在1951年问爱尔兰人：'你现在不后悔吗？'
So if you'd said to somebody in Ireland in 1951, let's say, do you not regret it now?
'你认为应该重新加入英国吗？'
Do you think you should rejoin The United Kingdom?
他们肯定会嘲笑你。
I mean, they would have laughed at you.
这提议听起来简直荒谬至极。
It seemed such a ludicrous suggestion.
重新加入英国在当时看来简直是不可能的事。
It would have seemed impossible to rejoin The UK.
不过我认为区别在于，这里存在一种公开帝国主义的遗留问题。
Although I suppose the difference is that there's a kind of legacy of overt imperialism.
这种遗留问题已经毒化了——特别是英格兰与爱尔兰之间——长达数个世纪的关系。
That has poisoned relations between, I suppose, particularly England and Ireland for centuries and centuries.
而这种情况在欧洲并不存在。
And that hasn't been the case with Europe.
确实不存在。
No, it hasn't.
但如果你是个狂热的脱欧派，你可能会说：爱尔兰人回顾历史时，看到的是一个关于独立性与独特性的故事，这个故事最终得到了正名，或者说我们终于某种程度上弥补了过去的苦难。
But of course, if you're a very keen Brexiteer, you would say, you know, the Irish looked to their history and they see a story of separateness and distinctiveness that has finally been vindicated, or it's finally been, you know, we've finally sort of redeemed the suffering of the past.
脱欧派也会同样指出英国独特的历史轨迹。
And a Brexiteer would say, well, would similarly point to a distinctive history.
他们会说，脱欧正是这段漫长历史发展的必然结果。
And they would say, this is merely the culmination of that long history.
当然，这段历史并不包含同样程度的苦难感。
Of course, not a history that has a sort of a sense of suffering in it in the same way.
但我觉得，这不正是国家脱离联盟或
But I think, isn't this what countries always do when they leave unions or when
确实如此。
they Absolutely.
争取独立时的惯常做法吗？
Become independent?
它们随后会构建一种民族主义的
They they then create a nationalist sort
历史叙事体系，而当前不过是其巅峰荣耀。
of historiography of which this is merely the crowning glory.
是的。
Yes.
但我想重申，关键在于脱欧派很难——尽管某些极端分子可能尝试过——将欧盟塑造成帝国主义或
But I guess I mean, just to reiterate, I think that the difference is that it is hard for Brexiteers, although maybe some of the more extreme ones, have tried to cast the European Union as an embodiment of imperialism or
是的。
Yeah.
作为一个压迫者。
As an oppressor.
引发饥荒，或者你知道的，在德罗赫达等地制造大屠杀之类的。
Causing famines or you know, committing massacres in in, Drogheda or whatever.
我的意思是，这些其实并不构成叙事的主要部分。
I mean, that that there isn't that that isn't really part of the narrative.
然而，隐藏在所有这一切背后的，或许是对欧洲大陆态度最接近脱欧本质的表现。
However, lurking behind all of that, the the attitude towards the continent is perhaps the most recent Brexit.
那么，多米尼克，我们在第10条看到了什么？
So what do we have at number 10, Dominic?
嗯，我认为这是最有趣的一个脱欧相关事件，就是敦刻尔克。
Well, I I think this is a this is a very this is the the funniest Brexit, I'd say, which is Dunkirk.
所以敦刻尔克实际上就是一次脱欧。
So Dunkirk is a literal Brexit.
我是说，我们确实离开了欧洲大陆。
I mean, we literally leave European soil.
当然，和所有脱欧事件一样，这次也有些混乱，因为我们带走了一些法国和比利时士兵。
Of course, again, like all Brexits, it's kind of muddy because we take some French and some Belgian soldiers with us.
我们很大程度上依赖法国人和比利时人来掩护我们的撤退。
We rely very much on the French and the Belgians to kind of shield our retreat.
还有那些著名的轶事，比如乔治六世对丘吉尔说，敦刻尔克之后他感觉好多了，因为我们不再需要讨好任何盟友了。
And there's that, you know, all that famous stuff about George the sixth saying to Churchill that he feels much better after Dunkirk because we no longer have any allies that we have to be nice to.
但是，当然，
But, of course,
我们确实有盟友，因为还有波兰人在空中作战。
we do because we've got all the Poles flying.
是啊。
Yeah.
而且还有，你知道，《标准晚报》上那幅著名的漫画
And we've got and, you know, there's that there's sort of the famous cartoon in the evening standard of the
是的。
Yeah.
汤米站在悬崖上，对着云层挥舞拳头，说道：'很好，那就独自战斗吧。'
The Tommy standing on the cliff, shaking his fist at the clouds, and saying, very well, then alone.
显然，敦刻尔克作为英国脱欧事件，在我们自我认知中扮演了重要角色。
And, obviously, Dunkirk, as a Brexit, has played a massive role in our sense of ourselves.
没错。
Right.
所以很明显，它的神话意义很重要，而且某些保守党议员在提到脱欧话题时总爱拿二战说事
So, clearly, the the mythology of it has been important, and the readiness of certain Tory MPs to vote the Second World War whenever the topic of Brexit comes up
弗朗索瓦就是。
has Francois.
这个名字取得非常不恰当。
Been Very inaptly named.
奈杰尔·法拉奇也是。
Has been and Nigel Farage.
一直是脱欧辩论中反复出现的主题。
Has been a kind of running running feature of the the Brexit debate.
这完全不准确，不是吗？
It's not remotely accurate, is it?
因为欧盟无论如何都无法与纳粹德国相提并论。
Because the European Union can in no way be compared to do Nazi Germany.
我是说，这根本不可能。
I mean, it No.
尽管确实有人尝试过。
Though, of course, people have tried.
我记得安德鲁·罗伯茨是不是写过一本叫《亚琛备忘录》的小说？
I think there's a isn't there a book by Andrew Roberts, a novel called the Aachen Memorandum?
对。
Right.
这本书连标题都用了哥特式字体。
Which is it's even got the kind of gothic script of the title.
它采用了一种类似德文的字体。
It's done in a sort of Germanic script.
我记得这本书是在90年代中期出版的，内容大概是关于第四帝国的阴谋之类的。
I think it was published in the mid nineteen nineties, and that's about I think it was a plot for a fourth Reich or or something like that.
我是说，即使是最激烈的脱欧派人士...
I mean, not even the most vituperative Brexiteer.
我完全能理解其中的神话色彩，更不用说那些陈词滥调了。
I can absolutely see that the that the mythology of it, very well alone, all that kind of stuff.
是啊。
Yeah.
我们赢得了二战，诸如此类的说辞。
We won the second World War, blah blah.
我的意思是，这显然是情感漩涡中的关键部分。
I mean, that's that is clearly crucial part of the the kind of emotional swirl.
作为类比，这是个糟糕透顶的类比。
As a parallel, it's a terrible parallel.
嗯，我是说，这些类比
Well, I mean, these parallels are
我是说，类比本质上就是如此。
I mean, parallels by their nature.
当然。
Of course.
但我认为这是一个
But I think it's a
糟糕的 尤其糟糕的类比。
terrible A particularly terrible parallel.
但我认为 我是说 如果要选两个重要的
But I think this is I mean, I think if I was picking two that mattered.
好的。
Okay.
所以我们已经讨论完那10个了。
So we've we've gone through the 10.
我们已经讨论完这10个了。
We've gone through the 10.
我们要不要选出前三名？
Let's should we pick out our top three?
为什么？
Why?
好吧。
Okay.
好的。
Okay.
我们并不是在说最准确的，因为没有一个准确的。
And we're not saying the most accurate because I none of them are accurate.
我是说，这些都是极具倾向性的类比。
I mean, are all incredibly tendentious parallels.
我的意思是，这就是类比的本质。
I mean, that's the nature of the parallels.
让我们来说
Let's say
关于这个播客的
of this podcast.
是的
Yes.
绝对同意
Absolutely.
但我们来说那些，映照出最有趣镜像的
But let's let's say the ones that, hold up the most interesting mirror.
好的
Okay.
所以如果我来选的话，我是说你的第一个选项，很多人会觉得非常牵强，就是那个狗岛的例子
So if I was picking I mean, your first one, which a lot of people would have thought was sort of very spurious, which is the dogland one.
我是说，你可以论证那确实很重要
I mean, you can argue that really matters.
对吧？
Right?
我认为这是最重要的。
I think it's the most important.
我认为这是绝对最重要的。
I think it's the single most important.
因为我那
Because I That
岛屿般的事物。
thing as an island.
是的。
Yeah.
地理因素是根本性的。
The geography is is fundamental.
我会把那个包括进去。
I would include that.
我个人绝对会把宗教改革包括在内。
I would include I would personally definitely include the Reformation.
你会把宗教改革包括在内吗？
Would you include the Reformation?
当然。
Definitely.
这真令人失望。
This is disappointing.
哦。
Oh.
是的。
Yeah.
因为宗教改革在某种程度上——你知道，存在一种相似性——我认为是因为当宗教改革来临时，你是在拒绝一整套法律体系、既有观念和社会规范，这让你必然与欧洲大陆的主要势力形成对立。
Because the Reformation is is to the degree that, you know, there is a parallel, I think it's because when the when the when the the reformation came in, you were rejecting, a whole corpus of of laws and assumptions and proprieties, and you were definitely setting yourself at odds with the major powers on the continent.
所以我认为...是的。
So I think that the the yeah.
我认为这可能是这批例子中最无争议的类比了。
I think that's probably the the least tendentious parallel of of the lot.
你看，如果让我选的话——我是说，正如我们所说，这并不是一个很成功的类比。
You see, if I was picking I mean, it's not it's not a very successful parallel, as we've said.
但就重要性而言，我认为敦刻尔克和第二次世界大战。
But in terms of mattering, I think Dunkirk and the Second World War.
想想看，如果没有第二次世界大战，就不会有英国脱欧。
Think get, without the Second World War, you don't get Brexit.
我是说，确实不会，因为历史走向就不同了。
I mean, you don't because the history is different.
二战塑造的那种'老爸军团'、'轰炸鲁尔水坝'式的英国形象，乃至整个欧洲形象，在人们的民族认同感中占据着极其重要的地位。
The Second World War place, that sort of dad's army, dambuster's view of Britain and indeed of Europe is so huge in people's sense of their own national identity.
而且我认为最关键的是，英国是欧洲主要国家中唯一经历两次世界大战却既未被占领也未被击败的国家。
And I think it matters so much that Britain is the one major European country that goes through both world wars without being occupied and without being defeated.
这意味着我们讲述二十世纪历史——欧盟诞生的故事——的方式与其他所有欧洲国家都截然不同。
And it means the way we tell the story of the twentieth century in which the EU is created is very different from how every other European country tells that story.
你不认为敦刻尔克很重要吗？
Don't you think Dunkirk matters?
好吧。
Okay.
鉴于我们讨论的是最有趣的镜像，我同意你的观点。
Based on the fact that we're talking about the most interesting mirror, I'll grant you that.
我确实认为它在...中起了关键作用
I I do think it's played a crucial role in Are you
我们没选约翰王让你很懊恼吗？
gutted we didn't choose King John?
相当失望。
Quite disappointed.
是啊。
Yeah.
相当失望。
Quite disappointed.
你看，关于这些事有很多种说法，如果你预期最坏的情况——重申一下，我们不知道此刻是否正有人在大街上为几个萝卜争吵不休。
Well, you see, there are a number of and that there are number on these that that if you're expecting the worst and to reiterate, we don't know whether people, even as we speak, are are squabbling over turnips out on the streets.
所以如果真是那样，如果协议没达成，一切都灾难性地失控，飞机从天上坠落，那确实...
So if that's the case, if it's if there has been no deal and it's all gone disasterly wrong and planes dropping from the air, then Yeah.
罗马式脱欧，这可能是个不错的类比。
The Roman Brexit, that might be a good comparison.
约翰时期的情况会很有趣，你知道，如果事情彻底搞砸了，我们是否得卑躬屈膝地回头求助？
And the John one would be interesting in terms of, you know, if it goes spectacularly wrong, will we perhaps have to go back cap in hand?
爱尔兰的情况也很有意思，我认为即使发生那种情况，很可能也不会。
The Irish one, I think, is also interesting that even if that happens, probably not.
汤姆，我想问你个关于罗马式脱欧的问题，我觉得这个类比太精妙了。
Me ask you a question, Tom, about the Roman Brexit, which I find so fascinating.
当罗马人离开时，
When the Romans left,
我是说，他们真的离开了吗？
I mean, did they leave?
离开的那些人后来怎样了？
Did people who left?
我是说，数量上
Short of I mean, the number of
真正实际离开的人肯定非常少。
people who actually physically left must have been pretty small.
本质上，当时英国境内驻扎了大量军队，因为北面有敌人——哈德良长城以北，爱尔兰，还有越来越多穿越北海而来的敌人。
Well, what essentially, happens is that Britain has a large number of military forces in it because there are enemies in North Asians' Wall, in Ireland, increasingly coming across the North Sea.
因此，不列颠境内驻扎着大量军队。
So there are large quantities of forces in Britain.
随着大陆中心的崩溃，对不列颠的罗马指挥官来说，尝试称帝变得极具吸引力。
And as, the center implodes on the continent, so it becomes incredibly appealing for Roman commanders in Britain to have a crack at becoming emperor.
于是他们不断抽调行省的驻军，将其带过海峡，但总是以失败告终。
And so they increasingly strip the province of, its garrisons, take them across the channel, they invariably lose.
所以到了五世纪初，实际上已经没有任何驻军存在了。
So, ultimately, what's happened by the beginning of the fifth century is that you no longer have any garrisons, really.
你们实际上已经没有任何罗马军队驻守了，但不列颠人却仍被要求缴纳税收。
You don't really have any Roman forces left, and yet the Britons are still being required to pay the taxes.
所以我认为这本质上就是导致那种，嗯，你知道的，我们正在'脱罗'的情况。
So I think that that's essentially what precipitates the the well, the the kind of, you know, we're Brexiting.
他们的欧盟预算贡献没有得到
Their EU budget contributions are not seeing
像样的回报。
a decent return.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
正是如此。
Exactly so.
所以是的。
So yeah.
兴趣。
Interest.
但我同意，我完全赞同你的观点，我们必须做一期关于不列颠残余势力终结的播客。
But I agree I totally agree about you that we must do a podcast on the end of Remnant Britain.
我觉得会很有趣的。
I think it would be Yeah.
非常非常有趣。
Very, very interesting.
好的。
Alright.
新年决心怎么样？
What about New Year's resolutions?
是的。
Yes.
总之，希望你喜欢这个内容。
Anyway, so, hope you've enjoyed that.
祝你新年快乐，愿英国脱欧尽可能顺利，也希望2021年的一切都比2020年更好。
Wishing you a very happy New Year and, as good a Brexit as we can hope, and, hope everything in 2021 is better than it's been in 2020.
非常感谢你的收听。
Thanks very much for listening.
再见。
Goodbye.
感谢收听《余下皆历史》节目。
Thanks for listening to The Rest is History.
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网址是restishistorypod.com。
That's restishistorypod.com.
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