12. 阴谋论

如果你想从节目中获得更多内容，就加入‘余下皆历史’俱乐部吧。

If you want more from the show, join the rest is history club.

随着圣诞节的临近，你还可以为你生活中的历史爱好者赠送一整年的访问权限。

And with Christmas coming, you can also gift a whole year of access to the history lover in your life.

只需访问rest ishistory.com并点击礼物选项。

Just head to the rest ishistory.com and click gifts.

大家好，欢迎收听‘余下皆历史’。

Hello, and welcome to the rest is history.

首先，我要坦白一件事。

First up, a confession.

实际上，这个播客是由圣殿骑士团和外太空蜥蜴组成的财团资助的。

This podcast is actually paid for by a consortium of the Knights Templar and Lizards from Outer Space.

我们的工作是通过用倾向性的历史类比压倒你们，改变你们听众的思维方式，从而为乔治·索罗斯和猫王领导的全球接管做好准备。

Our job is to change the mindset of you, our listeners, by overwhelming you with tendentious historical parallels, thereby softening you up for a global takeover led by George Soros and Elvis.

实际上，我的同谋者多米尼克·桑德布鲁克在这里，那并不是真的，

Actually, Dominic Sandbrook, my co conspirator with me here, that's not actually true,

是吗？

is it?

那都是胡说八道。

That's nonsense.

呃，有些部分是真的。

Well, some of it's true.

那些带有倾向性的历史类比，确实够真实的。

The tendentious historical parallels, that's true enough.

对。

Yes.

那那那确实是真的。

That that that is actually true.

我是说，如果我们怂恿几个社交媒体上的网红暗示这确实是事实，要多久才会有人真信了？

I mean, maybe if we encouraged a few influencers on social media to suggest that this is in fact the case, how long before some people actually believed it to be true?

哈，这倒是个好问题——我是说，我们居然能影响任何人，坦白讲这已经超出想象范围了。

Well, that's a good I mean, thought that we could influence anybody is frankly beyond the realms of the imagination.

但是，是的。

But, yes.

所以今天，我们决定讨论阴谋论。

So today, we thought we would do conspiracy theories.

这个话题在推特上反响热烈，当我们发布时，这正显示出人们多么热衷于相信，像汤姆和我这样一小撮极具影响力的人掌控着世界。

What and and a great subject to me had an amazing response on on Twitter when we put this out, which just shows the appetite that people have for believing that, you know, tiny groups of highly influential people like Tom and me control the world.

显然有约翰·肯尼迪遇刺案、圣殿骑士团、共济会、玫瑰十字会、《锡安长老议定书》、教皇阴谋论，还有巴拉克·奥巴马是否真是出生在肯尼亚的俄罗斯潜伏特工？

So obviously JFK, the Templars, the Freemasons, the Rosicrucians, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, the Popish plots, you know, was Barack Obama actually a a Russian sleeper agent born in Kenya?

我是说，汤姆，这些数据令人震惊。

I mean, the statistics, Tom, are amazing.

首先，美国国家公共电台最近一项民意调查询问美国人是否相信一群崇拜撒旦的精英在运作一个儿童性交易团伙，试图控制我们的政治和媒体。

So to kick off, a recent poll by NPR, the American National Public Radio, asked Americans if they believe that a group of Satan worshiping elites who run a child sex ring are are trying to control our politics and media.

这就是QAnon理论的核心指控。

So that's the allegation at the heart of QAnon.

17%的人认为这些崇拜撒旦的精英确实试图控制媒体，37%表示他们不知道。

And 1717% said it was true that they they thought these Satan worshiping elites were trying to control the media, and 37% said they didn't know.

换句话说，超过半数的人要么相信这个说法，要么态度暧昧。

So in other words, you got more than half who either believe it or are sort of ambivalent.

这很不可思议，不是吗？

That's extraordinary, isn't it?

但并非史无前例。

But not unprecedented.

我觉得这正是有趣之处。

I think that's the interesting thing.

并非史无前例。

Not unprecedented.

你可以看到当下疫苗推广期间阴谋论是如何生根发芽的。

And you can see the way that conspiracy theories take root at the moment with the roll out of vaccines.

显然，关于疫苗有各种各样的阴谋论。

And obviously, there are all kinds of conspiracy theories about vaccines.

比如认为新冠疫苗会改变我们的DNA、给人植入芯片、试验志愿者死亡被掩盖、比尔·盖茨牵涉其中，甚至说西班牙流感疫苗导致了五千万人死亡。

There's the idea that COVID-nineteen vaccines will alter our DNA, that they're going to implant microchips into people, that volunteers in the trials died and it's being covered up, that Bill Gates is somehow involved, that vaccines for the Spanish flu were responsible for the fifty million deaths.

这确实产生了连锁反应，因为在法国，我认为超过50%的人表示他们不愿意接种疫苗。

This has an actual knock on effect because I think in France, I think over fifty percent of people are saying that they're that they don't want to take the vaccine.

是啊。

So Yeah.

我看到了。

I've seen that.

这对...嗯...可不是什么好消息。

That's not good news at all for yeah.

所以，我认为这集的关键不仅在于审视阴谋论本身，更要探讨它们如何反映时代特征，以及它们实际上如何影响了事件进程，甚至常常影响了历史的宏大走向。

So so so I think I mean, the key thing about this episode is not just to look at, you know, conspiracy theories in and of themselves, but to explore the way in which they hold a mirror up to the times and also the way that they have actually influenced the course of of events and and often the broad sweep of history.

我觉得

I think it's

嗯。

a Yeah.

一个非常、非常富有启发性的观点。

A very, very fertile idea.

我是说，多米尼克，你主要研究现代时期，特别是你早期的研究领域是尼克松。

Mean, Dominic, you you you write mainly about, the modern period, and and you've particularly, you know, your early field of study was Nixon.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得尼克松有趣的地方在于，你知道，他是被水门事件搞垮的。

I guess what's interesting about Nixon, you know, he's brought down by Watergate.

而水门事件实际上，我是说，那是一个最终被证实为真的阴谋论，对吧？

And Watergate actually I mean, that's a conspiracy theory that turns out to be true, isn't it?

确实如此。

It is.

水门事件最引人入胜的地方在于——就像所有这些事件一样——

The the fascinating thing about Watergate is that it's well, it's like all these things.

它本质上是一出关于无能的传奇，而非某个精英集团在操控一切。

It's it's really a saga of incompetence rather than rather than sort of an elite that's controlling everything.

具体到水门事件（为不熟悉的人解释下）：尼克松的连任竞选团队试图窃听民主党对手，但手法极其拙劣。

So in Watergate, for people who don't remember the Nixon campaign, the reelection campaign, they tried they bugged their they bugged their opposition, the democrats, but in a very incompetent way.

他们闯入水门大厦，试图安装窃听装置，结果事情败露了。

They broke into the Watergate Building, and they tried to plant wiretaps, and it all came out.

汤姆，这件事有趣的地方在于——正好印证了你之前说的——他们这么做是因为尼克松本人就是个阴谋论者。

And and the interesting thing about that, Tom, which bears out what you were saying earlier on, is that the reason they did it is because Nixon himself was a conspiracy theorist.

尼克松相信外界有个针对他的阴谋。

So Nixon believed that there was a conspiracy out to get him.

他一直都这么认为。

He had always believed it.

他认为肯尼迪家族、哈佛毕业的那些人、北方那些东北部的知识分子政治集团都在密谋对付他，认为他们在监听他。

He believed that the Kennedys, that people who'd gone to Harvard, that the Big North sort of Northeastern intellectual political establishment were plotting against him, that they were bugging him.

他不断对助手说'我们必须以其人之道还治其人之身'。

And he he constantly said to his aides, we have to do to them what they're doing to us.

所以他策划了这个阴谋，因为他觉得需要武装起来对抗那个针对他的阴谋——虽然那个阴谋其实并不存在。

So he basically orchestrates this conspiracy because he thinks he needs to tool up to fight the existing conspiracy against him, which, you know, didn't really exist.

而他行事所依据的正是美国政治中的偏执风格。

And he is operating against what the the the paranoid style in American politics.

所以，尼克松总统任期内大概流传着两大阴谋论。

So two, I mean, two massive conspiracy theories that are presumably floating around while Nixon is president.

谁杀了肯尼迪，没错。

Who shot JFK is Yeah.

这是最离谱的那个。

Is the Whopper.

我认为早在尼克松执政时期，也就是登月后不久的那几年，人们已经开始怀疑那（登月）也是伪造的。

And I think already, by the time of Nixon's presidency, you know, the the years that immediately followed the moon landings, already people are starting to speculate that that is is a fake as well.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得肯尼迪遇刺案是更重大的那个。

I think the JFK one is the bigger one.

至于登月阴谋论，这是个疯狂的论调，我认为它稍晚些才流行起来。

So the moon landings is a is a a mad one that I think gains traction slightly later.

不过肯尼迪案——我是说肯尼迪案堪称经典，因为它是那种典型情况：人们把看似突如其来的重大事件

The JFK one though I mean, JFK one is a classic one because it's that classic instance of people taking a a seismic event that seems to come out of the blue.

我是说，我们毫无疑问会讨论这个话题。

And I mean, one of the the we'll talk about this, no doubt.

但阴谋论经久不衰的吸引力之一，在于它能让人们解释那些无法解释的事情。

But one of the perennial appeals of conspiracy theory is that it allows people to explain the the inexplicable.

总统显然是被一名独行枪手刺杀，但人们觉得这难以接受。

So the president was shot apparently by a lone gunman, but but people find that hard to handle.

他们不喜欢历史中存在随机偶然因素这种观点。

They don't like the idea that of the random the contingent element in history.

于是他们试图将其套入现有的模式，就像你说的美国偏执风格——想想看，美国本身就是作为反抗大西洋彼岸脱离民众的精英阶层而建立的。

And so they try to fit it into the these sort of existing, as you say, the paranoid style in America, which is if you think about America, America was set up as a as a rebellion against an, you know, an out of touch elite on the other side of the Atlantic.

但同时，美国又被塑造成某种清教徒式的山巅之城，被腐败所包围。

But, also, America is set up as a sort of Puritan, shining city on a hill surrounded by corruption.

所以总有种被围困的感觉，仿佛有暗黑势力在对抗美利坚合众国。

So there's always this sense of sort of being embattled and and sort of shadowy forces moving against the American republic.

人们试图将肯尼迪遇刺案也纳入这个框架。

And the people tried to fit the JFK assassination into that.

他们说，这一定是中情局、黑手党、古巴人或其他什么势力干的。

They said, well, it must be the CIA or the mafia or the, you know, the Cubans or whoever it might be.

他们对水门事件和登月事件也采取了同样的态度。

And they do the same with Watergate and then with the moon landings as well.

所以这绝对是美国的一种传统。

So that's definitely an American tradition.

就是理查德·霍夫施塔特所说的那种偏执风格。

That kind of what Richard Hofstadter called the paranoid style.

嗯，这是个非常不公平的问题，但我想请教您这位真正了解美国现代史的人。

Well, it's it's a very unfair question, but I just wanted to ask you as someone who really knows his his modern American history.

您认为

Who do you think

是谁刺杀了肯尼迪。

Killed JFK.

是盲目的。

Is blind.

但到底是谁杀了肯尼迪？

But who who who shot JFK?

我是说，难道只是个无名小卒？

I I mean, was it just the random guy?

答案显而易见却视而不见。

The answer is so blind in the obvious.

明显就是李·哈维·奥斯瓦尔德。

It's obviously Lee Harvey Oswald.

而且那个

And and the

关键是他没有被俄罗斯人或黑手党洗脑，也不是

the the the key thing He wasn't brainwashed by the Russians or the mafia or

他没有，汤姆。

He wasn't, Tom.

我一直认为最明显的破绽——阴谋论者从未解释的单一事实是：如果你真要利用李·哈维·奥斯瓦尔德当替罪羊，为何连辆逃跑的车都不给他准备？

And I always think that the giveaway the single fact that showed that that that that the conspiracy theorists never address is the fact that if you employed Lee Harvey Oswald, even as your patsy, why would you not provide him with a getaway car?

你为何会让他在事后大摇大摆走在街上？这就是

Why would you allow him to roam the streets after That's what

他们想要的。

they want.

这正是其阴险狡诈之处。

That's precisely the fiendish cunning of it.

他枪杀了一名警察。

He shoots a policeman.

阴险狡诈。

The fiendish cunning.

我是说，得了吧。

I mean, come on.

你懂吗？

You know?

他是被克格勃洗脑了。

He was brainwashed by the KGB.

我是说，你知道的，这

I mean, you know, it's

总之是的。

anyway Yes.

但但你是对的，不是吗？

But but you're you're right, aren't you?

当然，这提供了一种安心感。

That, of course, it provides a kind of reassurance.

我是说，这就是阴谋论中不言而喻的真相

I mean, that's that's the unspoken truth about conspiracy theories

当然。

Of course.

它让人们认为，即使幕后可能是些吸血蜥蜴般的家伙，至少这能让你安心——知道那些人清楚自己在做什么，哪怕是为了最邪恶的目的。

Is that it enables people to think that even though they may be kind of blood sucking lizards behind it, at least that gives you some reassurance that people know what they're doing even if it's for the most malign purposes.

但同时也让你感觉良好。

But also makes you feel good.

对吧？

Right?

因为你已经看穿了它。

Because you've seen through it.

所以你是光明力量的一员，是抵抗运动的一部分。

So you're one of the forces of light, and you're part of the resistance.

你已经识破了邪恶计划，所以

You have seen through the the evil plan, so

这会让你稍微

that gives you a bit

占据一些优势。

of an advantage.

你周围都是尚未觉醒的愚昧之人。

You're surrounded by the sheep who haven't.

这比生活在一个完全随机的世界里要安心得多——在那里，说不定什么时候就会有块大石头砸到你头上要了你的命，而且毫无意义可言。

And that's much more comforting than thinking you live in an entirely random world where a big, you know, stone block might fall on your head at any moment and kill you, and it has no meaning.

我认为这对人们来说是很可怕的事，不是吗？

I think that's a terrifying thing, isn't it, for people?

如果历史必须有意义，而阴谋论者提供了一个意义，这种缺失就存在。

The lack of if there must be a meaning in history, and conspiracy theorists provide one.

当然，他们还能做的是提供一件政治武器。

And what they also can do, of course, is provide a political weapon.

因为，是的。

Because Yeah.

如果你能指控你的敌人卷入阴谋，然后将自己塑造成揭露阴谋的人，那么你就成了当下的英雄。

If you can accuse your enemies of being embroiled in a conspiracy, and then you cast yourself as the person who has exposed that conspiracy, then you become the hero of the hour.

我能看出汤姆在这方面的走向。

And you will I can see where this is going with Tom.

是的。

Yes.

但我们不知不觉地从1960年代的美国转到了公元前60年代的罗马。

But I I have we're seamlessly moving from, nineteen sixties America to, sixties BC Rome.

有道理。

Fair enough.

这确实是所有阴谋论的鼻祖——卡提林阴谋，由一位名叫卡提林的罗马贵族暗中策划，据称他企图控制罗马，雇佣高卢暴徒在元老院杀害政敌。

Was really the the the the the the granddaddy of, all conspiracy theories, which is, the catalinarian conspiracy, a conspiracy conducted by a shady Roman aristocrat called Catiline, supposedly, who was going to take over Rome, employ gangs of Gauls to murder his enemies in the senate.

这一阴谋被伟大的演说家西塞罗揭露，他的演说词为后世政治修辞学提供了范本。

And this is exposed by the great orator Cicero whose speeches provide a template for political rhetoric that people have studied essentially ever since.

围绕西塞罗揭露卡提林阴谋的质疑始终存在——从他发表演说那一刻起，就有人怀疑他是否夸大其词。

And floating around Cicero's exposure of this, catalinarian conspiracy has always been, right from the very time that he gave these speeches, the dark suspicion that perhaps Cicero was overreaking it.

直到今天这仍是个悬而未决的问题，毕竟...

And it's still a problem today to to to work that out because, of course To

人们无法

people not

知道？

know?

我们只有西塞罗的单方面记载。

Only have Cicero's accounts.

哦，好吧。

Oh, okay.

所以我们没有，你知道，我们没有任何来自喀提林的反驳。

So we don't have, you know, we we don't have any counter blasts from Catalan.

所以我们只有西塞罗的演讲。

So we only have we only have Cicero's speeches.

从某种意义上说，正是因为西塞罗的演讲如此具有影响力，才提供了这个模板。

And in a sense, that provides the template precisely because Cicero's speeches are so influential.

它们某种程度上提供了如何书写拉丁语的范本。

They kind of provide a model of how to write Latin.

因此在十六世纪乃至十七世纪，这些内容一直被研究。

So throughout the sixteenth and then into the seventeenth century, this is being studied.

我猜这进而影响了十七世纪英格兰人对于黑暗阴谋的怀疑倾向，其中最明显的例子大概就是天主教阴谋案了。

And I guess that then has an impact on the readiness of people saying in in seventeenth century England to suspect dark conspiracies, which had and the obvious, I suppose, kind of glaring example of that is the the Popish plot.

是的。

Yeah.

天主教阴谋真是件引人入胜的事，对吧？

The Popish plot's a fascinating thing, isn't it?

显然，那个十七世纪是个阴谋论盛行的年代。

I mean, obviously, that was an age seventeenth century is an age rich with conspiracies.

我们几周前才讨论过十七世纪。

Mean, we talked about the seventeenth century a few weeks ago.

波兰阴谋堪称鼻祖，因为它某种程度上奠定了英国

The Polish plot is the granddaddy because in a way, it's the foundation of British

政治的基础。

politics.

给听众补充一下，那发生在查理二世统治末期。

And this just for listeners, that's the end of Charles II's reign.

没错。

It Yes.

你说得对，它其实发生在确有其事的阴谋背景下——比如盖伊·福克斯

You say, it comes against a background, actually, course, of conspiracies that are proven to be true, but which Guy Fawkes

是的。

Yeah.

盖伊·福克斯就是那个经典案例，对吧？

Guy Fawkes is the classic one, isn't it?

没错。

Yeah.

确实是个经典案例。

It's the classic one.

所以其实你也注意到了，阴谋论是有可能存在的。

So so you you you noted, actually, conspiracies are possible.

对。

Yeah.

还有提图斯·奥茨，这个自称掌握内幕的天主教徒。

And Titus Oates, who is this Catholic fellow, who says and he has inside knowledge.

他还去过培训学校。

He has been to training schools.

他与耶稣会士有过交往。

He has mixed with Jesuits.

他曾去过欧洲大陆。

He's been on the continent.

后来他公开撤回之前的言论。

So then he's recanted.

他回到英格兰后声称：我都知道。

He's come back to England, and he says, I know.

他掌握了所有细节。

And he has all these details.

他看起来掌握了所有细节。

He appears to have all these details.

他说，要知道，阴谋论总是这样——他们有个内部人士后来悔悟了，回来宣称：'我已看清真相'。

He says, you know and this is always the way that with conspiracy theories that they have an inside man who has since repented, who returns and says, well, you know, I've seen the light.

我曾误入歧途，但现在掌握了整个阴谋的来龙去脉。

I was a sinner, but I now know all the ins and outs of the conspiracy.

我是说，这就是五十年代美国反共主义的典型表现，麦卡锡主义。

I mean, this is how, you know, anticommunism in nineteen fifties America often were, McCarthyism.

人们会说，我在三十年代曾是共产党员。

People would say, I was a communist in the thirties.

我知道他们有多邪恶，我也知道所有大学教授都是共产党。

I know how evil they are, and I know that all university professors are communists.

这某种程度上就是提图斯·奥茨的运作方式。

Well, this is sort of how Titus Oates works.

他说，我掌握了大量情报。

He says, I have this tremendous amount of knowledge.

我知道有个刺杀国王的阴谋。

I know there's a plot to kill the king.

天主教徒随时准备在全英格兰揭竿而起。

Catholics are poised any moment to rise up over England.

耶稣会策划了整个事件，而这说法在当下土壤中很有市场。

The Jesuits have been plotting the whole thing, and it falls on very fertile ground.

正因为他似乎具备这种专业水准和内幕消息，人们才会相信他。

And because he seems to have this level of expertise, this inside knowledge, people believe it.

接着他又声称，约克公爵詹姆斯——一位天主教徒，查理二世的弟弟及继承人——他们打算扶他上位，让他成为国王。

And then there's this he says, James, Duke of York, who is a Catholic, who is Charles the second's brother and heir, he says they're gonna put him on the throne, make him king.

他是个天主教徒。

He's a Catholic.

这就引发了一场重大政治危机：托利党与辉格党对峙——辉格党想将詹姆斯踢出继承序列，托利党则坚持保留他的继承权。

And you have the that that creates this sort of big political crisis where you have the Tories and the Whigs, the Whigs who want to kick James out of the line of succession, the Tories who want to keep him.

从某种意义上说，你可以把英国所有政治斗争都追溯到...虽然有点牵强，但确实可以追溯到这场天主教阴谋引发的偏执狂潮。

So in a sense, you can trace all British politics back to the I mean, it's slightly sort of tangentious, but you can trace it all back to the to the sort of paranoia of the popish plot.

但这事后来被揭穿了吧？

But, I mean, it gets exposed, doesn't it?

毕竟查理二世从未真正相信过这个阴谋。

I mean, he Charles the second never really believes it.

最终泰特斯·奥茨被判定为骗子。

And in due course, I mean, Titus Oates is is condemned as a fraud.

他被罚每年站在示众台上

He's made to stand on the pillory every

没错。

year That's right.

被鞭打着游街示众。

Whipped through the streets.

但其影响却持续发酵。我认为，正是在提图斯·奥茨煽动的这场恐慌期间，天主教徒被禁止进入议会两院。

But the the effects of it linger I mean, I think, it's it's during this period, during the kind of scare that Titus Oates has whipped up, that Catholics get banned from both the houses of parliament.

这一禁令一直延续到19世纪初。

And that's something that lasts right the way up to the early nineteenth century.

所以这确实产生了切实的影响。

So this has measurable effects.

确实如此。

Oh, it did.

查理二世其实并不相信这些。

Charles didn't really believe it.

你知道，他问的问题有时候会出错。

He asked you know, people ask sometimes ask questions that he got wrong.

查理其实知道自己在某个时间点根本没去过某个地方，他能发现其中的一些错误。

And Charles kind of knew he hadn't been in such and such a place at such and such a time, and he could he could spot some of mistakes.

但他当时并没有能力立即揭穿这个谎言。

But he wasn't in a really a position to sort of expose it straight away.

实际上正如你所说，真相确实花了很长时间才被揭露，这个过程持续了好几年。

And I actually took a long, as you say, did get exposed, it took a few years.

正如你所说，它也产生了可衡量的影响。

And it also, as you say, had measurable effects.

确实如此。

So Yeah.

阴谋论确实很重要。

Conspiracy theories really matter.

我认为，可以说英国的所有政治都源于一个阴谋论，这本身也说明了政治的本质——政治中总是存在阴谋论的成分。

I mean, the the fact that all politics in Britain, you can argue, stems from a conspiracy theory tells you, I think, something about politics as well, that there's always an element of conspiracy theory in politics.

无论多么民主或疯狂，人们总在谈论精英、腐败和隐秘网络——你不觉得吗？我是说，最近这类言论简直铺天盖地。

No matter how democratic and insane, there's always this don't you think that people always are talking about elites and corruption and shadowy networks that I mean, you've seen this so much recently.

嗯，确实。

Well, yes.

我想本质上，选举就是让选民决定：他们想推翻哪个隐秘组织？

I mean, I suppose at essentially, at an election, what the electorate is being asked to decide is which which shadowy organization do you want to get rid of?

对。

Yeah.

说白了就是这么回事。

I mean, essentially, that's what it comes down to.

你投票给某个政党，无非是坚信当这个党说对手会毁掉国家时——他们说得对。

You you you know, you decide to vote for one party or the other based on on your conviction that the that when one party says the other party will ruin the country, that's right.

是啊。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

你基本上就是接受了一种叙事，不是吗？

You basically buy into a narrative, don't you?

两大主要政党给你提供了一种叙事，说他们是人民的代表，而对方则是残忍、恶毒、冷酷的精英阶层，正与他们在媒体界的朋友密谋摧毁英国。

The two part the two main parties give you a narrative in which they are the representatives of the people, and the other guys are the cruel, malevolent, callous elite who are plotting with their friends in the media to destroy Britain.

我是说，你都看到了。

I mean, you see this.

天啊。

My god.

过去十年里你见得还少吗？

You've seen this so much in the last ten years.

嗯，是的。

Well, yes.

我们绝对在脱欧问题上看到了。

We absolutely with Brexit.

绝对如此。

Absolutely.

双方完全捏造出这种观念，认为他们的敌人被列入了各种阴谋论名单，还受到外国政府资助之类的。

Both sides completely manufacturing the notion that their enemies are ranked in, I guess, lines of conspiracies and funded by foreign governments and all kinds of yes.

我是说，完全如此。

I mean, complete.

我猜这进一步衍生出的东西，在关于阴谋论的伟大小说《傅科摆》里有所体现，作者是

And I guess that a further corollary of that is something that is made play with in, I guess, the great novel about conspiracy theories, Foucault's Pendulum by

哦，对。

Oh, yeah.

安伯托·艾柯，这本书基本上把历史上所有重大阴谋论，比如圣殿骑士团、玫瑰十字会等等，都打包成一个超级阴谋论，其实就是为了好玩。

Alberto Ecco, which essentially takes every great conspiracy theory in history, so the Temper, and the Rosicrucians, and everybody, and bundles it up into one super conspiracy theory just for fun, really.

我是说，这是一群教授和记者们搞出来的。

I mean, it's a kind of a a group of professors who do who do it and journalists.

然后他们发现自己虚构的幻想居然成真了。

And then they discover that they've actually they've that what they've created as a fantasy comes true.

是啊。

Yeah.

我觉得这非常有趣，因为历史上反复出现人们将恐惧投射到敌人身上的现象。

And I think it's it's so interesting because you do see that again and again through history, that people project fears onto their enemies.

有时敌人最终确实会呈现出被投射到他们身上的那些特征。

And it can happen that their enemies will ultimately take on the lineaments of what is being projected onto them.

嗯，水门事件就是个例子，对吧？

Well, that's the Watergate example, isn't it?

你知道，人们

You know, people

投射 是的。

project Yes.

是的。

Yes.

但我认为最引人入胜的例子是奥克西坦的阿尔比派十字军。

But I think the most fascinating example of that is with the Albigensian crusade in Okay.

十三世纪早期，我们现在倾向于称他们为卡特里派。

The early thirteenth century, which we would now tend to call the Cathars.

不过，‘卡特里派’这个词直到19世纪末才被用来指代阿尔比派，这显示出这些阴谋论需要多长时间才能形成。

Although, the word Cathars is only applied to the Albigensians in the late nineteenth century, which shows how long these conspiracy theories take to work out.

但本质上，这个观点是——福柯的钟摆也对此有所影射——在法国南部存在一个模仿天主教会的隐秘异端教会。

But, essentially, the idea is that, and, again, Foucault's pendulum makes play with this, that there is, in the South Of France, there is a shadowy heretical church, which is modeled on the Catholic church.

它是二元论的，认为存在一位善神和一位恶神，他们拥有对立且势均力敌的力量。

And it is a dualist, so it believes that there are you know, there is a god who is good and there is a god who is evil and they have rival powers, equal powers.

阿尔比十字军东征的发起，就是为了铲除这个据说存在的幻想中的教会。

And the Alvogenesian Crusade is launched to extirpate supposedly this fantastical church that exists.

这场东征给法国南部这个富庶文明的核心地带带来了前所未有的破坏与流血。

And it brings devastation and bloodshed kind of beyond compare into the heart of of this rich civilization of Southern France.

它实质上加速了宗教裁判所的发展。

It essentially turbo charges the inquisition.

它确立了一个贯穿整个中世纪历史的异端模板。

It establishes a template for heresy that runs throughout medieval history.

然而据我们所知，这个关于隐秘教会的想法实际上——你知道的——完全是一种幻想。

And yet, as far as we can tell, actually, this idea of the shadowy church did not you know, it it it was a fantasy.

这是虚构的。

It was made up.

而阴谋论改变历史进程的力量由此得到了极其生动的展现，尤其体现在人们至今仍倾向于相信清洁派确有其事。

And the potency of conspiracy theories to change the course of history is so dramatically illustrated by that, not least in the way that people still tend to think that, you know, that there were such things as Cathars.

所以清洁派并不存在。

So the Cathars didn't exist.

你基本上是这个意思吗？

That's what you're basically saying?

不是。

No.

而是说，确实存在一些人持有对基督教信仰的态度，而这些态度在几个世纪前本是绝对正统的。

That that there were people who who held, attitudes towards their Christian faith that had been absolutely orthodox a couple of centuries before.

他们难道不是同性恋磨坊吗，汤姆？

Are they not bugger mills, Tom?

不是。

No.

他们不是。

They're not.

哦，米尔斯真让人失望。

Oh, mills is very disappointing.

不是。

No.

所以所有这些人物形象，那种认为存在由异端分子组成的隐秘网络在欧洲密谋串联、传播阴谋的观点，完全是一种彻头彻尾的幻想

So all of those figures, kind of the idea that there are shadowy networks of heretics conspiring and meeting up and spreading their conspiracy across Europe, is completely it's a complete fantasy

——教会制造的。

of the church.

但本质上，他们对待阿尔比派的方式就相当于对待'可悲者'。

But basically, what they're dealing with with Albigensians is the equivalent of deplorables.

这些人被教会精英圈层中关于正统观念、是非标准的发展进程所抛弃。

It's people who've been left behind by the way that, in elite circles in the church, notions of orthodoxy, notions of what is right and wrong, has developed.

因此本质上，他们是要去消灭那些固守过时（观念）的人

And so, essentially, they're going in to wipe out people who no who who who are clinging to outdated

对。

Right.

对基督教本质的理解。

Understanding of what Christianity is.

但它如此吸引人，以至于它继续构建小说和是的。

But it's it's but it's so appealing that it continues to structure novels and Yeah.

电影以及事实上，整个旅游业是

Films and and and in fact, the entire tourist industry is

我正要

I was just about

说

to say

法国南部。

South Of France.

两年前，我们去朗多克度假，参观了所有的卡特里派城堡。

Two years ago, I went we went to the Londock on holiday, and we went to all the Cathar castles.

我印象最深的是他们举办了一个关于最后一位清洁派教徒的大型展览。

I mean, the one that sticks in my mind is one they've got a huge exhibition about the last Cathar.

那个人叫贝利·巴斯特。

Was a man called Beli Bast.

这个名字有点不太走运，我觉得对于在历史上扮演如此英雄式殉道角色的人来说。

Very slightly unfortunate name, I think, for somebody with such a sort of heroic sort of martyrdom role in history.

他们展出了所有关于清洁派的东西。

And they had all this stuff about the Cathars.

而你现在告诉我他们的朗多克旅游局在兜售谎言。

And you're telling me that their Londok tourist board is peddling a lie.

我认为他们是在兜售一种幻想。

I think they're peddling a a a fantasy.

这是个相当有利可图的幻想。

It is quite a lucrative fantasy.

我们正在以成千上万的速度失去朗多克的听众。

We're losing listeners in Londock by the, you know, by the thousand.

当然，这其中确实包含了一些真实的成分。

And which, of course, does have elements of truth.

我是说，正如我们所说，阴谋论必须编织进一些人们觉得真实的东西。

I mean, as we've said, conspiracy theories have to weave in things that people kind of know is true.

但我觉得最耐人寻味的是，当宗教裁判所开始介入，并审讯那些被指控为异端的人时，那些被指控的人开始说：好吧。

But, also, I think what's fascinating about that, when the inquisitions start to move in and they start to interrogate people that they're accusing of this heresy, people who are accused of it start to say, okay.

对。

Yeah.

行吧。

Alright.

是的。

Yes.

我确实有罪。

I am guilty of it.

所以这很有意思。

And so That's interesting.

事情就是这样运作的。

That's kind of how it works.

所以他们某种程度上是在强加一种模式。

So they're sort of imposing a a pattern.

所以这实际上与...这是个非常奇怪的比较。

So that's actually not unlike this is a very weird comparison.

但这让我联想到的是，在奥斯曼帝国解体后，人们在巴尔干半岛四处询问：你是保加利亚人、马其顿人、塞尔维亚人还是其他什么民族？

But that's a this is a the what that reminds me of is after the the Ottoman Empire fell apart, and people would go around the Balkans, they would say to people, are you a Bulgarian, a Macedonian, a Serbian, or whatever?

人们往往并不知情。

And people often didn't know.

他们无从作答。

They didn't have an answer.

他们会强行给这些人安上某种身份，而人们基本上只能忍受，因为不服从就会被枪决。

And they would sort of impose an identity on them, which people basically put up with because they'd be shot if they didn't.

然后他们就真的变成了那些被指控的样子。

And then they became those things.

所以基本上——这类事情往往就是这样运作的，不是吗？

So you're basically and that's often how these things work, isn't it?

人们将某种身份强加于事物之上。

The people project an identity onto something.

他们投射出一种模式，然后人们最终会活成那个样子。

They project a pattern, and then people end up living up to it.

于是人们将清洁派（Catharism）的模式强加给了法国西南部。

So people imposed the sort of Catharism model on the Southwest Of France.

而现在法国西南部欣然接受了这个身份。

And now the Southwest Of France happily embraces it.

所以信奉阴谋论的人最终会变成——

So people buying into conspiracy theories becoming the

恰恰是人们所恐惧的那个阴谋本身。

very conspiracy that that people dread.

好吧，我想这是个刺激的节点，正好让我们稍作停顿，好让多米尼克和我重新校准你们手机上的微型摄像头以及血液里的微芯片。

Well, a thrilling note, I think, on which to just have a short pause while Dominic and I recalibrate the mini cameras on your phones and the microchips in your blood.

我们稍后回来。

We'll be back after this break.

欢迎回到《余下皆历史》，这档播客由一个神秘集团赞助，致力于促成天知道是什么的可怕事件——也可能并非如此。

Welcome back to The Rest is History, the podcast paid for by a shadowy cabal committed to bringing about who knows what terrible events, or indeed not.

阴谋论这个话题显然引起了人们的极大兴趣，因为当我们在推特上提到本期播客主题时，收到了海量推文。

Now the topic of conspiracy theories is obviously one that people are incredibly interested in because you've sent us a vast number of tweets when we mentioned on Twitter the subject for this podcast.

让我们来看看其中的一小部分。

So let's take a look at just a few of them.

当然，我们只能挑选其中一小部分来讨论。

And, obviously, we're only going to be able to look at a few of them.

至于那些没被选中的内容，我们正在竞标收购——毕竟我们是邪恶阴谋的一部分。

And the ones that we're not looking at, we're bidding them for because we're part of a sinister conspiracy Yeah.

这是个阴谋。

It's a plot.

这是个阴谋。

It's a plot.

那么，好吧。

So, okay.

第一条来自比尔·琼斯。

So, the first one is from Bill Jones.

我认为，从某种意义上说，这是历史上最黑暗、最具影响力的阴谋论，一个始终不肯消亡的理论。

I think it's, in a way, it's historically the darkest and most significant conspiracy theory of the lot, the one that just refuses to die.

比尔·詹姆斯写道：过去和现在的阴谋论中存在着一条长长的反犹主义脉络——血祭诽谤、《锡安长老议定书》、德雷福斯事件、与历史瘟疫的关联，还有关于索罗斯的疯狂新冠阴谋论。

Bill James writes, a long strand of antisemitism in past and present conspiracy theories, blood libel, protocols of the Elders of Zion, Dreyfus, linkages to historical plagues, COVID mad stuff about Soros.

这种论调层出不穷。

It goes on and on.

这确实令人悲哀，不是吗，多米尼克？

That is mournfully true, is it not, Dominic?

是啊。

Yeah.

这就是终极阴谋论，对吧？

It's the ultimate conspiracy theory, isn't it?

这是一种阴谋论。

It's the sort of conspiracy theory.

不过，我认为它随着时间的推移已经发生了变化。

Although, I think it's changed over time.

中世纪的排犹主义，以及那些血祭诽谤之类的，它并不具备自19世纪末以来，尤其是20世纪才出现的元素——即犹太人从底层恶魔摇身一变成为了顶层恶魔的观念。

So, medieval antisemitism, and that sort of blood libel and stuff, it didn't quite have the element that it has had since the late nineteenth century, particularly the twentieth century, which is the idea that so the Jews went from being, as it were, bottom dog to top dog in the sort of in the the demonology.

他们显然是中世纪时期的局外人，当时他们遭受了集体迫害等不幸。

So they were outsiders, obviously, in, medieval period when they suffered pogroms or whatever.

但在20世纪，纳粹的经典阴谋论则认为犹太人并非局外人。

But in the twentieth century, obviously, the classic Nazi conspiracy theories that the Jews are not outsiders.

他们是掌控媒体、金融、大企业等领域的终极内部操纵者。

They are the ultimate insiders who are controlling the media and finance and big business and all this kind of thing.

他们策划了'背后捅刀'等种种阴谋。

And they've orchestrated the stab in the back and all the rest of it.

因此，排犹主义是随着时代演变的。

So antisemitism has adapted over time.

可悲的是，这正是它如此成功的原因之一。

And that's one reason it's been so successful, sad to say.

正如我们所看到的，它并未消失。

And as we see it, it hasn't gone away.

我的意思是，这真是件非同寻常的事。

I mean, it's an extraordinary thing.

我记得大约二十年前，有人跟我谈起英国的反犹主义，当时我的经纪人说他代理了一位叫安东尼·朱利叶斯的作者，写了本关于英国反犹主义的大部头著作。

I remember about twenty years ago, saying to me about antisemitism in Britain, about a book they were they were my agent said he was representing a guy called Anthony Julius, who had written this big book about antisemitism in Britain.

他曾与出版商们会面，出版商们表示英国根本不存在反犹主义。

And he'd had meetings with publishers at which publishers had said, well, there is no antisemitism in Britain.

那为什么要出版一本关于不存在现象的书呢？

So why publish this book on something that doesn't exist?

当时我就想，你说什么？

And at the time, I thought, you what?

英国可能确实没有多少反犹主义。

There probably isn't really much anti Semitism in Britain.