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If you want more from the show, join the rest is history club.
随着圣诞节的临近，你还可以为生活中的历史爱好者赠送一整年的会员资格。
And with Christmas coming, you can also gift a whole year of access to the history lover in your life.
只需访问 restishistory.com 并点击‘礼物’选项。
Just head to the rest ishistory.com and click gifts.
大家好，欢迎收听本期特别版的‘余下皆历史’。
Hello, and welcome to this special edition of the rest is history.
现在是周日早晨。
It's Sunday morning.
美国总统选举已进入白热化阶段。
American presidential election has reached its climax.
昨晚，在唐纳德·特朗普的强烈抗议声中，乔·拜登被宣布为美利坚合众国第四十六任总统。
And last night, among considerable recrimination from Donald Trump, Joe Biden was declared the forty sixth president of The United States Of America.
这场选举关乎现代美国的灵魂本质，特朗普为保住权力进行了殊死搏斗。
It was an election for the very soul of modern America with Trump fighting tooth and nail to cling on to power.
那么这种情况前所未有吗？
So is this unheard of?
特朗普认为他是谁？
Who does Trump think he is?
他是当代的尤利乌斯·凯撒，还是翻新版且略显陈旧的理查德·尼克松——属于古代还是现代？
Is he a a modern day Julius Caesar or an updated and slightly shop soiled Richard Nixon, ancient or modern?
当然，讽刺的是，特朗普是在高尔夫球场上得知拜登当选的消息的。
Well, the joke is, of course, that, Trump was brought the news that, Biden had been elected while he was on the golf course.
所以有很多评论提到独裁者被困在地堡里的场景。
So there've been, lots of comments about, dictators being cornered in bunkers.
希特勒的类比被频繁提及，但多米尼克，我认为你不会认同这种比较。
The Hitler parallel has been much aired, but isn't one, I think, Dominic, that, that you would have much time for.
可能不会。
Probably not.
刚才发言的这位幽默大师，当然就是我的辩论搭档汤姆·霍兰德。
The jokesmith, who's just spoken is, of course, my sparring partner, Tom Holland.
将特朗普与希特勒相提并论，天哪，这已经是老生常谈了，我完全无法苟同这种类比。
The Trump Hitler analogy, my goodness, that's a well worn analogy, and one for which I have absolutely no time at all.
实际上，特朗普和希特勒确实有两个共同点，汤姆。
Actually, one thing that Trump and Hitler had in common two things they had in common, Tom.
他们都对食物有着古怪的偏好。
They're both very funny about their food.
希特勒是个素食主义者，而特朗普只吃麦当劳汉堡。
So Hitler, of course, was a vegetarian, and Trump only eats McDonald's burgers.
而且两人都非常懒惰——希特勒总要睡到中午才起床，几乎不处理政务。
And they're both very lazy, so Hitler didn't get up until kind of midday and didn't do any work.
我认为唐纳德·特朗普的工作态度也从未真正...
And I don't think Donald Trump's work ethic has ever really
希特勒是滴酒不沾的吗？
And was was was Hitler teetotal?
是的。
Yes.
他是。
He was.
特朗普也是。
So So Trump is as well.
这就是第三个共同点。
So there's the third comparison.
特朗普滴酒不沾吗？
Is Trump teetotal?
共同点越来越多了。
So they're stacking up.
是的。
Yes.
希特勒没那么橙。
Hitler was less orange.
希特勒没那么橙。
Hitler was less orange.
不是。
No.
这样好多了。
That's better.
而且据我所知，他并不打高尔夫。
And didn't and not into golf as far as I know.
好的。
Okay.
好的。
Okay.
所以我认为我们确实在挑战历史研究的边界。
So I think that we're really pushing the, the the boundaries of historical inquiry here.
确实如此。
We are.
不过，多米尼克，说到历史研究，如果我没记错的话，尼克松是你的一个专门研究领域，对吧？
But, Dominic, to actually talking of historical inquiry, I'm I'm right, aren't I, that that Nixon was a particular area of specialization for you?
这基本上是你攻读博士学位的领域。
That's kind of the the area you did your doctorate in.
我的博士研究是关于60年代末美国政治的，那正是理查德·尼克松的时代。
Well, I did my doctorate in sort of late 60s American politics, and that's Richard Nixon's time.
1968年的大选，尼克松以法律与秩序候选人的身份参选，所向披靡，最终成为美国总统。
So the election in 1968, that's when Nixon, running as a law and order candidate, carried all before him, and he became US president.
我曾经教授过一门全年制的关于理查德·尼克松的专题课程，那是我的专长课程，非常精彩。
And I used to teach a course that lasted all year about Richard Nixon with my it was my special subject course, and it was brilliant.
我们某种程度上深入了解了尼克松的内心世界。
We kinda got into Nixon's head.
我们从他对妻子帕特的情书开始研究，最终见证了他几乎是被强行拖出白宫、又踢又叫的场景。
We started with his love letters to Pat, his wife, and we ended with him basically being winched out of the White House kicking and screaming.
当然，这形成了一种对应关系，因为你知道，他确实...是的。
And that, of course, is a parallel because, you know, he's Yeah.
他是我能想到的唯一一个像特朗普先生现在这样，带着这种混乱不堪的耻辱氛围离开白宫的人。
He's the he's the only analogy I can think of of somebody leaving the White House in this sort with this sort of air of shambolic indignity that we have right now with with mister Trump.
尼克松当然没有输掉选举。
And Nixon was of course, did not lose an election.
他没有。
He No.
他是个选举赢家。
He's an election winner.
不。
No.
他是大赢家。
He massive winner.
他是个选举赢家，所以他实际上不得不辞职。
He's an election winner, so he's he's essentially has to resign.
是的。
Yeah.
他当时有像特朗普现在这样拼命想留在白宫吗？
Did did did he fight to stay in the White House as furiously as Trump is currently fighting?
他确实如此。
He yes.
我想他是的。
I suppose he did.
尼克松的故事确实非比寻常。
So the it's an extraordinary story, the Nixon story.
这比特朗普的故事复杂得多，因为尼克松在1972年总统选举中以压倒性优势获胜。
It's much more complicated than Trump story because Nixon won the nineteen seventy two presidential election in a stonking landslide.
因此这与特朗普形成了鲜明对比。
So there's a big contrast there with Trump.
尼克松赢得了除马萨诸塞州和哥伦比亚特区外的所有州。
Nixon won every single state except Massachusetts and the District Of Columbia.
这简直是对民主党的彻底碾压。
So this sort of utter wipe out of the Democrats.
但尼克松内心的不安全感如此强烈，以至于他让团队对民主党人实施了窃听。
But Nixon's gnawing insecurity was such that he had got his team effectively to to bug the Democrats.
他策划了这一切，然后试图掩盖，接着又掩盖了掩盖行为。
He colluded it into and then he covered it up, and then he covered up the cover up.
于是接下来的大约十八个月里，这桩丑闻持续发酵。
And so you had this unfolding scandal for the next sort of eighteen months or so.
当尼克松录音带曝光，他的那些肮脏秘密在美国公众面前败露时，他不得不下台。
And it when it turned out that Nixon had been taping himself and his sort of dirty secrets were aired before the American public, he had to go.
但当然，就像政客们一贯的做法那样，他拼命抵抗，尝试了各种手段。
But, of course, as politicians always do, he fought and he, you know, he he sort of tried everything.
他试图扭曲事实。
He tried to spin things.
最终在1974年8月，共和党参议员们告诉他，时间到了，他必须下台。
And eventually, in August 1974, he the Republican senators told him, you know, time's up, and he had to go.
但我认为相似之处在于，尼克松以最不体面的方式离开了。
But where I think the parallel works is that, you know, Nixon left in the most undignified way possible.
所以他向全国发表了一篇相当标准的辞职演说。
So he gave a fairly standard resignation speech to the nation.
但到了他离任的那天，也就是离任当天的早晨，他整夜未眠，汗流浃背地盯着阴影发呆。
But when it came to the day of his departure, so the morning of his departure, he stayed up all night sort of sweating and staring into the shadows.
然后他筋疲力尽，情绪激动，整个人一团糟。
And then and he's knackered, he's overwrought, and he's a bit of a bit of a mess.
他向工作人员发表了这段非同寻常的告别演说，还被电视转播了。
And he gives this extraordinary farewell speech to his staff, which is televised.
听众中看过安东尼·霍普金斯主演的电影《尼克松》的人可能会记得这一幕。
And anyone the listeners who've seen the the Anthony Hopkins film Nixon will probably remember this.
他在镜头前彻底崩溃了。
And he just completely disintegrates on camera.
他谈到自己的父亲，说那是个小人物，一个普通人。
He's talking about his dad, who was a little guy and a common man.
他说他的母亲是位圣人。
He says his mother was a saint.
当谈到母亲时，他基本上哭了起来。
He basically starts crying when he talks about his mother.
这简直就是一场可怕的崩溃，完全违背了美国人对总统的所有期待——他们期望总统保持一定程度的尊严与体面。
And it's just this awful disintegration, and it and flies completely in the face of everything Americans expect from their president, which is a level of dignity and civility Yeah.
还有那种清醒克制之类的品质。
And sort of sobriety and all the rest of it.
这件事已经被视为反面教材的巅峰——如何不体面地离开白宫。
And it's sort of gone down as the the acme of what not to do, how not to leave the White House.
是啊。
Yeah.
这很有趣，因为特朗普的行为引发的一个核心问题就是：为什么人们会感到如此震惊？
And and that's interesting because, I I mean, part one of the things, of course, that that that Trump's behavior raises is the question, why do people find it so shocking?
为什么当年尼克松的行为也让人如此震惊？
And why did people find Nixon's behavior so shocking?
这说明美国人对政客——尤其是领导人——的行为方式有着非常强烈且往往不成文的规范期待。
And it suggests that there is a kind of very strong, often unwritten code about how Americans expect their politicians and particularly their leaders to behave.
当然，现实往往与这种期待背道而驰。
And, of course, this so often goes against against the reality.
因为我想，要登上美国政治的顶峰，你必须玩得既狠又脏。
Because I guess to to to reach the top of American politics, you have to play hard and dirty.
但总有一种感觉，认为你必须达到某种道德标准。
But there is a kind of always this sense that, you know, there are moral standards that you have to live up to.
而如果像特朗普现在所做的那样，以及像尼克松曾经做过的那样，你打破了这些标准，人们真的会感到震惊。
And if, as Trump's currently doing and as as Nixon did, you you break that, then people are genuinely shocked.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为这实际上是对的。
I think that's right, actually.
我是说，他们确实斗争得很激烈。
I mean, they do fight hard.
但事实上，当你回顾美国政治时，令人惊讶的是他们多么经常地感到需要遵守这些准则。
But, actually, when you look back at American politics, the striking thing is how often they do feel the need to conform to these codes.
所以阿尔·戈尔在2000年将总统之位输给乔治·布什和小布什时，尽管情况有些可疑，他的行为却非常...怎么说呢，很有古罗马风范。
So Al Gore, when he lost the presidency to George Bush and George w Bush in 2000, kind of dubious circumstances, he behaved in a very, you know, Roman way.
他哦。
He Oh.
哦，这可是给你的礼物，汤姆。
Oh, that's a gift to you, Tom.
我再也不会在这个播客里说话了。
I never I never speak again in this podcast.
他把球传丢了。
He gives the ball away.
确实如此。
It does.
是啊。
Yeah.
太糟糕了。
Terrible.
太糟糕了。
Terrible.
他丢掉了球权。
He loses possession.
这简直是学生级别的失误。
That's schoolboy.
是啊。
Yeah.
这是罗曼。
It is Roman.
这是罗曼。
It is Roman.
很高兴你提到这个。
I'm so glad you brought that up.
因为，当然，关于准则的问题，荣誉准则，是的。
Because, of course, the the the question of the code, the code of honor Yeah.
我的意思是，这最终可以追溯到，我想，追溯到华盛顿的榜样。
I mean, it goes back ultimately to the, I guess, to the the example of Washington.
确实如此。
It does.
很高兴你把话题转回美国政治，汤姆，而且把罗马人抛在了脑后。
I'm glad you brought it back to American politics, Tom, and and left the Romans behind.
是啊。
Yeah.
呃呃，等等。
Well well, wait.
等等。
Wait.
因为华盛顿是位将军。
Because Washington is a general.
他是位胜利的将军，驱逐了国王，并努力建立共和国。
He's a victorious general who has thrown out a king and who has labored to establish a republic.
是的。
Yes.
所以关键问题是，他是否会放下他的剑？
And so the big the big question is, you know, is he going to lay down his sword?
他会回到他的农场吗？
Is he going to return to his farm?
碰巧的是，那些深入研究古罗马历史的美国开国元勋们手头就有罗马共和国的模式，因为罗马共和国是在驱逐国王后建立的。
And it so happens that the American founding fathers who are absolutely steeped in the study of ancient Roman history have the model of the Roman Republic to hand because the Roman Republic is established after a king is expelled.
它之所以有效，是因为它建立了这套准则——他们称之为mos maiorum（祖先习俗），即每个人都应遵守的传统。
And it's it it it it works because it establishes this code, the mos maiorum, they call them, the kind of the customs held to by the ancestors that everyone is expected to hold to.
这正是开国元勋们所借鉴的，也是华盛顿所参考的模式。
And that's what the founding fathers are kind of looking to, and that's the model that Washington is, is drawing on.
确实如此。
Exactly.
华盛顿的故事是个很好的例子。
So the Washington story is a a good one.
因此他基本上在1783年交出了指挥权。
So he basically gives up his command in 1783.
大陆军赢得了战争，或者说实际上是法国人帮他们打赢了这场战争。
The Continental Army has won, or rather the French have won the war for them.
英国基本上已经放弃了。
Britain has basically given up.
美国获得了独立。
America has its independence.
实际上，华盛顿在真正成为总统之前还有六年的间隔期。
And, actually, there's then a six year break before Washington actually becomes president.
所以他直到1789年才正式就任总统。
So he doesn't actually become president until 1789.
基本上，他们是硬把他拖上这个职位的。
And, basically, they have to drag him kicking and screaming into the job.
他并不真的想做这份工作。
He doesn't really want to do it.
他们选择他是因为他是个能团结各方的人物，因为他是个爱国典范等等，但他本人并不热衷于此。
They turn to him because he's a unifying figure, because he's a patriotic figure, all the rest of it, but he doesn't really fancy it.
而在他第一个任期结束后，他再次表示真的不想继续，但他们基本上是在强迫他。
And then after his first term, again, he he doesn't really want to carry on, and they basically compel him.
其他开国元勋们说，不行。
The other founding fathers say, no.
不行。
No.
你必须留下来完成它。
You must stay and do it.
然后他在第二个任期结束后离开，并确立了这个传统——只有二战期间的富兰克林·罗斯福打破过——即总统只连任两届。
And then he leaves after his second term and establishes this tradition, which only one president, FDR, in the Second World War has ever broken, that a president will only do two terms.
所以这种...我有点犹豫要不要轻易把球还给你，但这种不情愿担任领导、需要被勉强推上岗位的精神特质。
So that that sort of I'm hesitant to give you the ball back so easily, but that sort of ethos of the reluctant leader who has to be sort of coerced into the job.
我的意思是，他显然在努力达到标准。
I mean, he's obviously trying to live up.
我的意思是，他曾担任一个名为辛辛那提协会的团体主席。
I mean, he was the president of a a group called the Society of the Cincinnati.
这就是你们熟知的罗马英雄辛辛纳图斯，我相信你正要给我们讲讲他的故事。
And there you have your Roman hero, Cincinnatus, that I'm sure you're about to tell us about.
我我当然要讲，辛辛纳图斯绝对是这一形象的典范，他是罗马共和国早期的传奇人物。
I I certainly so Cincinnatus is is absolutely the archetype for this, who is, a legendary figure from the early years of the Roman Republic.
他之所以成为罗马人和美国人共同敬仰的象征，是因为这位伟大的战争领袖同时也是个农夫——他被从犁边召唤出来拯救人民、领导国家。
And the reason that he serves as such an iconic figure, both for the Romans and then for the Americans, is that he's a great war leader who is also a farmer, and he is summoned from his plow to save his people, to lead his country.
在拯救国家之后，他又重新回到了田间耕作。
And then having saved his country, he then returns to the plow.
这个形象对华盛顿而言堪称完美——有座令人震撼的雕像
And this is such a kind of perfect image for Washington that you you you there's a sensational statue.
我记得是霍雷肖·格里诺的作品，应该存放在史密森尼博物馆——当然这里是播客节目
I think it I think it's in the Smithsonian by, Horatio Greenough, which, obviously, this is a podcast here.
可惜没法给你们展示图片
Unfortunately, I can't bring it up for you.
不过大家可以自行搜索查看
But anyone, Google it.
这简直太绝妙了。
It's it's it's so brilliant.
雕像中的华盛顿戴着假发、身着托加袍、手持利剑，完美展现了那种奇特的十八世纪罗马融合风格，这正是早期美利坚共和国所热衷的。
It's it's Washington with his wig in a toga holding a sword, and it it it perfectly illustrates this kind of strange eighteenth century Roman fusion that the American early American Republic kind of absolutely plays with.
所以那些早期的美国人，他们基本上就自认为是罗马人，对吧？
So those early Americans, I mean, they basically thought they were the Romans, didn't they?
不过是特定类型的罗马人。
But particular kind of Romans.
对吗？
Right?
因为显然，他们心中有个理想化的罗马形象，你觉得呢？
Because, obviously, there's lots of they have this do they have this idealized image of Rome, do you think?
我是说，显然大多数罗马人可能和我们没什么两样。
I mean, obviously, most Romans are probably just like us.
没错。
Yes.
他们他们他们被这样一个事实所困扰：当然，在共和国初期，当每个人都品德高尚，像自耕农一样在田间耕作时，罗马共和国却正在扩张。
They're they're they're haunted by by the fact that, of course, the, the early days of the republic, when everyone is virtuous and and and kind of yeoman farmers and at their plow, that the Roman the Roman Republic expands.
它变得极其富有。
It becomes incredibly wealthy.
它成为一个超级大国。
It becomes, a superpower.
它将其统治扩展到整个地中海地区，这为野心勃勃的罗马政客提供了将整个共和国置于其阴影之下的机会。
It establishes its, rule across the whole of the Mediterranean, and this then provides opportunities for, ambitious Roman politicians to put the entire republic in its shadow.
随着时间的推移，这最终导致了专制政体的建立。
And in due course, that results in the establishment of an autocracy.
因此每一位开国元勋都对此心知肚明。
And so every founding father is nervously aware of this.
所以本杰明·富兰克林在表态时，他他他说，你们看，这会是个共和国吗？
And so Benjamin Franklin, when he come he he he says, you know, is it gonna be a republic?
然后他说，会的。
And he says, yeah.
只要我们能够坚守住，它就会是一个共和国。
It's gonna be a republic if we can keep hold of it.
这种焦虑始终存在，我想部分原因是尼克松非常热衷于将美国视为一个帝国式共和国的理念。
And that anxiety is always and I guess it's it's because, you know, Nixon is very keen on the idea of of America as an imperial republic.
所以这大概就是水门事件及其引发的人们对尼克松的焦虑所投射的阴影吧？
And so that's part of the shadow, would guess, is it, of of what's going on with Watergate and people's anxiety about him?
是的。
Yeah.
人们确实讨论过'帝王总统'这个概念。
I mean, people talked about the imperial presidency.
你说得完全正确。
You're absolutely right.
显然，在二十世纪之前，美国虽然也在发展，但对世界其他地方而言，它只是个遥远的存在。
So, obviously, what had happened I mean, basically, until the twentieth century, you know, America was kind of happening, but as far as the rest of the world was concerned, it was somewhere else.
谁会在意他们呢？
Who cared about them?
让他们继续吧。
Let them get on with it.
但到了二十世纪，美国确实成为了一个帝国。
But then in the twentieth century, America does become an empire.
虽然有人对此有争议，但事实毋庸置疑。
I mean, there's people argue about this, but there's no doubt, really.
它拥有殖民地。
It has colonies.
它在海外设有军事基地。
It has overseas bases.
它具备影响力。
It has influence.
它能在外国打赢战争。
It wins wars in foreign countries.
人们将总统比作美国的凯撒。
And the people talk about the president as an American Caesar.
他们使用这类术语。
They use that sort of terminology.
尼克松时期，先是林登·约翰逊（LBJ）主政——这位以越南战争闻名的总统，随后尼克松结束了越战——这被视为总统权力的巅峰，人们称之为'帝王总统'，即总统可以为所欲为。
And Nixon so the so the presidencies of LBJ, Lyndon Johnson, who preceded Nixon, who's famous for Vietnam, and then Nixon who ends the Vietnam War, that's kind of the high point of what people think of as the imperial presidency, of a president that can do what he wants.
他可以随意规避他想规避的人。
He can evade who he wants.
他正在积累越来越多的权力。
He's accumulating more and more power.
以尼克松为例，他利用联邦调查局监视政敌，窃听政敌。
And in certainly Nixon's case, he's using people like the FBI to, you know, survey his opponents, to bug his opponents.
当时有种近乎歇斯底里的恐惧——在七十年代初这种恐惧非常真实——人们认为尼克松治下的美国正在变成某种警察国家。
There's this sort of fear, which now seems completely hysterical, but at the time was very real in the early nineteen seventies that, you know, under Nixon, America was turning into a sort of police state.
实际上，这与我们过去四年从特朗普批评者那里听到的言论并无二致——他们认为特朗普代表着共和党梦的终结。
And, actually, that's not so different from what we've heard in the last four years from Donald Trump's critics who believe that he represents the end of the Republican dream.
确实。
Right.
而且，我认为这种焦虑几乎从美国建国之初就如影随形。
And and, again, I think that that is that that that's been an anxiety that has shadowed the American Republic pretty much from the beginning.
我的意思是，如果你以罗马为模板，拥有首都、参议院，首都建筑还布满类似古罗马的立柱，那么有两件事会让你担忧。
I mean, basically, if you model yourself on on Rome, if you have a capital, if you have a senate, if your capital city has loads of columns and pillars that look like ancient Rome, then there are two things that are gonna worry you.
第一是作为共和国，本质上共和国终将崩溃，而凯撒式的人物会以奥古斯都的形式出现。
The the first is that if you're a republic that essentially, the republic is gonna collapse and that a Caesar is going to emerge in Augustus.
第二则是整个罗马帝国终将覆灭，因此美利坚帝国也难逃此劫。
And the second one is that the entire you know, Rome the Roman Empire fell, and so the American Empire will fall.
确实。
Yeah.
虽然过去四年里将特朗普比作希特勒的说法非常流行，但把他比作凯撒同样颇具市场。
And I think that those those that's a kind although the Hitler you know, Trump as Hitler has been very, very kind of popular theme over the past four years, I think the Trump as a kind of Caesar has also been pretty popular.
我就靠写些牵强附会的比较赚了不少钱呢——比如
I've I know I've made a lot of good money writing farfetched comparisons Yes.
把特朗普和尼禄相提并论之类的。
Between Trump and Nero and so on.
人们常谈论特朗普执政的弊端，却从未提及这一点——最显著的一点——就是你从中赚取的巨额财富。
People often talk about the drawbacks of the Trump presidency, but they don't mention this one, which is the greatest, which is the, immense immense amount of money you've made out of it.
是啊。
Yeah.
呃，也不算巨额啦。
Well, not immense amount of money.
就是东拼西凑挣点零花钱罢了。
I mean, scratching together the odd penny.
但我觉得这种状况从杰克逊时代就开始了。
But I I I think that that is a kind of it it it's been there right from say, Jackson.
没错。
Yep.
他曾是位战功赫赫的将军。
He was a general successful general.
1812年战争的将军。
Eighteen twelve war general.
是啊。
Yeah.
对啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
人们开始觉得他会成为凯撒那样的人物。
I people start thinking that he's going to be a Caesar.
而且我认为，本质上，如果你以罗马为榜样，那么衰亡的命运就几乎注定会烙印在你的思想里。
And I think that, essentially, the the I if you model yourself on Rome, the idea that you're going to decline and fall is kind of hardwired into your into your mind.
但汤姆，这不奇怪吗？他们不断选举将军当总统，这本身就很罗马风格吧？
But isn't it odd, Tom, that they keep electing generals, which is is kind of a Roman thing in itself?
比如安德鲁·杰克逊是将军，尤利西斯·格兰特也是。
So Andrew Jackson's the general, Ulysses Grant Yeah.
内战之后那位。
After the civil war.
是的。
Yeah.
甚至在二战后，他们选择了艾森豪威尔，你知道的，诺曼底登陆的策划者。
And then even after World War two, they they go for Eisenhower, you know, the architect of d day.
不过不过有趣的是拜登，他和他那一代的其他总统一样，没有参加过越战。
Although although what's interesting with Biden, who who who, like every other man of his generate president of his generation, did not serve in Vietnam.
实际上，近期总统的关键事实是他们没有服过兵役。
Actually, the key fact about recent presidents is that they didn't serve in the military.
是的。
Yeah.
确实如此。
That's true.
这有点意思
It's a kind of interesting
而那位确实服过役的约翰·麦凯恩，却众所周知地未能胜选。
And the one who did famously failed to win, John McCain.
所以约翰·麦凯恩实际上是个非凡的罗马式人物，不是吗？
So John McCain is actually an extraordinary Roman figure, isn't he?
我是说，他就像那种基本上决定用一生来扮演角色的人
I mean, he's like somebody who's basically decided to role play his entire life
是的。
Yes.
扮演一位罗马战争英雄。
As a Roman war hero.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
因为他为他的国家而战。
Because he he he he fights for his country.
他被俘后遭受残酷折磨却拒绝屈服。
He gets captured and brutally tortured and refuses to give in.
而这，再次与罗马历史人物如出一辙。
And that, again, is absolutely redolent of of figures from Roman history.
有个叫雷古勒斯的人，在第一次布匿战争中率军对抗迦太基，被俘后被遣返罗马，条件是必须议和并劝说元老院向迦太基投降。
There's this guy, Regulus, who leads, a campaign against the Carthaginians in the first Punic War, gets captured, gets sent back to Rome on the proviso that he will sue for terms and encourage the senate to, to basically to surrender to Carthage.
雷古勒斯回到罗马后，拒绝劝说元老院投降，表示绝不妥协。
Regulus gets back to Rome, refuses to, encourage the senate to surrender, says, no.
他主张继续战斗，后因荣誉感主动返回迦太基，被关进钉满尖刺的木桶里滚下山坡。
Carry on fighting, and then feels honor bound to return to Carthage, where he gets put in a barrel that has spikes driven through it, he and gets rolled down a hill.
哇。
Wow.
这样能杀死他吗？
And does that kill him?
能。
Yes.
确实要了他的命。
It does kill him.
我是说，当然，麦凯恩活下来了。
I mean, that's of course, McCain survives.
但你知道，他几乎以同样的方式为美国经历了酷刑。
But, you know, he he he he kinda goes through torture for America in pretty much the same way.
某种程度上，特朗普说过最令人震惊、甚至带点黑色幽默的话是'我不喜欢输家'。
And in a way, one of the most kind of shocking things that Trump said and and, you know, kind of darkly funny was he said, I don't like losers.
他说'我不喜欢我的战争英雄'。
I don't like my war heroes.
是啊。
Yeah.
比如，
Like,
那些被俘虏的人。
who who get captured.
简直太令人震惊了。
Completely shocking.
我从未见过雷古勒斯，但确实见过约翰·麦凯恩。
I've never met Regulus, but I did meet John McCain.
她见过吗？
Did she?
他当时是什么样的人
What was he like
呢？
then?
和他握过手。
Shook hands with him.
以一种令人沮丧的方式——就像人们有时表现的那样，他和电视上呈现的形象完全一致。
Like, in in a sort of depressing way, and that people sometimes are, he was exactly as he appeared to be on TV.
所以我没什么花哨的轶事可讲，你知道，他没说过什么‘我们去看《呼叫助产士》吧’之类的话，完全没有。
So I have no colorful you know, he didn't say, let's there's a great, you know, let's let's go and watch Call the Midwife or no, he didn't.
根本没有‘我们走吧’
There was no Let's go
在校园烈士像前摔跤。
and wrestle on the campus martyr.
不。
No.
是的。
Yes.
确实如此。
Exactly.
不。
No.
我想我们只是寒暄了几句，公平地说，我当时是人群中的一员。
I think we just passed the time of the day, and then, to be fair, I was part of a crowd.
他正沿着队伍依次握手，而我就在队伍里。
And he was he was working his way down the line, and I was in the line.
我当时在人群中。
I was in the crowd.
2000年我还是研究生时，曾在新罕布什尔州初选现场观察，并见到了所有候选人。
I was observing the New Hampshire primary in 2000 when I was a graduate student and met all these candidates.
各位，这是一档让你近距离接触的播客节目
Guys, this is the podcast that brings you brushes with
伟大的确实如此。
the great Exactly.
好吧，说到这里，我想我们应该——汤姆，我认为我们得清点一些邮寄选票了。
Well, on that note, I think we should Tom, I believe we have to count some mail in ballots.
那我们就去清点选票吧。
So let's go and let's go and count our ballots.
与此同时，我们稍事休息，一分钟后回来。
And in the meantime, let's take a short break, we'll be back in a minute.
你好。
Hello.
我是汉娜·弗莱教授。
I'm professor Hannah Fry.
我是Michael Stevens，Vsauce的创始人。
And I'm Michael Stevens, creator of Vsauce.
我们想冒昧地打扰你一会儿。
We thought we would join you for a moment completely uninvited.
我们不会停留太久。
We are not gonna stay too long.
当然，除非你希望我们留下。
I mean, unless you want us to, of course.
我们来是为了介绍我们的全新节目《The Rest is Science》。
We're here to tell you about our brand new show, The Rest is Science.
每期节目都会从一个看似熟悉的话题开始，然后我们会层层剖析，直到你完全认不出它原本的样子。
Every episode is gonna start with something that feels initially familiar, and then we're gonna unpick it and tear it apart until you no longer recognize it at all.
没错，香蕉味尝起来根本不像香蕉。
Yeah, banana flavor doesn't taste like bananas.
是啊，这到底是怎么回事？
Yeah, what is that about?
所以它应该尝起来像一种在香蕉末日中灭绝的古老香蕉品种。
So it is supposed to taste like an old species of banana that was wiped out in a bananapocalypse.
而现在你只能在亿万富翁花园的植物收藏中找到它。
And now you will only find it in botanical collections in the gardens of billionaires.
哇。
Wow.
香蕉糖其实是早已灭绝香蕉的幽灵。
Banana candy is actually the ghost of a long extinct banana.
所以如果你喜欢刨根问底，想得更深入或更离奇些——没错。
So if you like scratching the surface, thinking a little bit deeper or weirder Yes.
当然也包括这个。
Definitely that too.
每周二和周四，你可以在任何播客平台收听我和迈克尔的新节目。
You can join Michael and I every Tuesday and Thursday wherever you get your podcasts.
欢迎回到《历史的余韵》。
Welcome back to the rest is history.
如果你喜欢前三或四期节目，请务必订阅并在苹果播客上给我们留下评论和评分。
If you've enjoyed these first three or four episodes, please do subscribe and leave us a review and a rating on Apple podcasts.
如果你不喜欢，那就请别这么做。
And if you didn't enjoy them, well, please don't.
可以通过我的推特账号@dcsandbrook联系我，或者用汤姆的@holland_tom。
And do get in touch using my Twitter handle at d c sandbrook, or use Tom's@hollandunderscoretom.
刚意识到，汤姆，这可能是你的板球墓志铭下划线。
Just realized, Tom, that could be your cricketing epitaph underscore.
哦，真有趣。
Oh, very amusing.
是啊。
Yeah.
其实这些串场词不是我写的，所以你知道，你可以怪
I I don't I don't actually I don't actually write these links, so, you know, you can blame the
制作人。
producer for that.
我完全把责任推给制作人
I'm completely blaming the producer for
那个。
that.
而且而且而且太不公平了。
And and and so unfair.
链接你有没有过惊艳的夏天。
The link have you ever Sensational, Summer.
汤姆你没注意到吗，这些链接总有种变成艾伦·帕特里奇的风险，对吧？
Do you not notice, Tom, that with these links, there's always a danger of turning into Alan Partridge, isn't there?
你知道我在想什么吗？
Do you know what think?
我总觉得艾伦·帕特里奇一直在我耳边嘀咕。
I kind of feel that Alan Partridge goes on my shoulder the whole time.
嗯，艾伦·帕特里奇是个评论员，不是球员。
Well, Alan Partridge was a commentator, not a player.
而我是一名玩家，所以感受不到危险。
And I am a player, so I don't feel the danger.
处处都充满危险。
It's all dangerous.
说得好。
Very good.
说到玩家身份...我们刚才在讨论约翰·麦凯恩的话题。
And talking of being a player talking of being a player, we were we were on the subject of, John McCain.
对。
Yeah.
当时有个特别具有罗马政治色彩的时刻——他的葬礼，我觉得这很有趣，某种程度上反映了罗马政治如何映照出当代美国政治的样貌。
And, there was a a a particularly Roman moment, I thought, and kind of interesting to the light shed on the on on the way that Roman politics perhaps holds a mirror up to contemporary American politics, which was his funeral.
在他葬礼上发生的是，民主党和共和党人都出席了。
And what happened at his funeral was that you had Democrats as well as Republicans going to it.
是的。
Yes.
传统上，在罗马，葬礼——比如著名的凯撒葬礼——是重要的政治舞台，人们可以借此发表声明。
And, traditionally, in Rome, funerals you know, the famous example is is the funeral of Caesar, were great political stages where people could make statements.
特朗普未被邀请的事实，传递出一种信号：整个政治建制派、整个政治秩序，那些坚守祖先传统习俗的人聚集于此，向一位伟大的美国英雄致敬，同时告诉特朗普他不属于这个圈子。
And the fact that Trump was not invited, there was a sense that the entire political establishment, the entire political order, people who held to the mos maior of the customs of the ancestors, were gathering there to honor a great American hero and to tell Trump that he was not part of the club.
我认为从罗马背景来看特别有趣的原因是，这反映了罗马政治的组织方式——本质上与政策无关。
And the reason I think that that is is particularly interesting from the Roman context is that it reflects the way in which Roman politics was organized, which was essentially not about policy.
它无关乎左派或右派。
It wasn't kind of left or right.
更多是关于风格。
It was more about style.
关键在于你是维护精英阶层的传统价值观，还是对他们进行嘲讽。
It was about whether you upheld the traditional values of the of of the elite or whether you kind of took the piss out of them.
但你知道吗，汤姆？
But you know what, Tom?
那个你做不到
That that you can't
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帮助他们。
help them.
这非常美国。
That's very American.
我们真正讨论过的两位总统，特朗普和尼克松，他们都把自己塑造成普通人的捍卫者——那些普通美国人，方下巴、诚实交易的小人物。
So both the presidents that we've really talked about, Trump and actually Nixon, they they projected themselves as the champion of the common man, the ordinary American, the square sort of square jawed, square dealing, the little guy.
尼克松经常谈论自己作为小人物对抗华尔街、纽约和新英格兰等地那些傲慢势利眼的形象。
Nixon talks himself a lot about the little guy against the sneering snobs on Wall Street and in New York and in New England and all the rest of it.
所以，实际上这种感觉更像是风格而非政策。是的。
So, actually, that sense of it being style rather than policy Yeah.
我认为这是两个体系完全共有的特点。
I think is something they completely have in common, the two systems.
是的。
Yeah.
而且我觉得特朗普有趣的地方在于——这在媒体报道中往往体现不出来——他其实相当幽默。
And and I think that what's interesting about Trump is and and it so often doesn't come across just in the press reports, is that he's actually quite funny.
他说的很多话，比如关于麦凯恩的那些经典例子，确实令人震惊，但也带着一种...嗯...
And quite a lot of what he he says so the, you know, the comments about McCain, a big classic example, are are are shocking, but are kind of Yeah.
这些言论旨在吸引那些觉得传统规范过于古板、无聊的人。
Designed to appeal to people who find the kind of traditional norms a bit stuffy, a bit boring.
这再次非常具有罗马特色，因为那些认同罗马共和国传统理想的人——他们自称为'好人'。
And that, again, is is very, very Roman because the the the kind of people who identify with the the the traditional ideals of the Roman Republic I mean, call themselves the bonnie, the good people, the good guys.
与之对立的是被称为'民众派'的人，他们向民众诉求。
And set against them, there are people who are called populares, people who appeal to the people.
你可以把这个词翻译成'民粹主义者'。
So, I mean, you could translate that as as populists.
那种认为民粹主义就是不正当的观念，正是罗马政治中所谓'好人'派的核心观点。
And that sense that to be a populist is somehow underhand is absolutely what the bonnie, the the good guys, are about in Roman politics.
我认为这已经成为...
And I think it's that's very much been a trend in in
美国政治中的一个趋势。
in American politics as well.
希拉里·克林顿堪称是典型的'好人派'代表，对吧？
Hillary Clinton was a was the sort of Bonnie par excellence, wasn't she?
我是说，人们常说她有点'女校长式'的作风——这算是个词吗？
I mean, she was a sort of sort of people often talked about her sort of school mistressy is that a word?
那种女校长式的做派。
School mistressy side.
要知道她总是扮演'完美小姐'的角色，而特朗普就像教室里后排那个鼓动其他同学反对她的吵闹男孩。
The fact that she's, you know, she's always, you know, miss Goody Two Shoes, and Donald Trump was the sort of raucous boy at the back of the class who's stirring up all the others against her.
是啊。
Yeah.
不过所有总统候选人——甚至尼克松——都是以传统方式熬过资历的。
Well but but also, all the presidential candidates I mean, even Nixon have kind of served their time in the traditional way.
他们都爬过罗马人所谓的'晋升阶梯'，也就是那条油腻的晋升之路。
So they've they've they've gone up what the Romans would call the cursus anorum, the kind of the the the greasy pole.
他们都在政坛熬够了资历。
They've they've, served their time in politics.
他们或曾在军队服役，或是学者之类的背景。
They or they've served in the military or or or whatever or they academics or whatever.
特朗普没有这种经历。
Trump Trump didn't.
特朗普本质上来自娱乐行业背景，他的执政风格也反映了这一点。
I mean, Trump came from a background essentially in entertainment, and that's how he's governed.
他并不是将娱乐业的方法论带入政坛。
I mean, he you know, he it it wasn't that he brought the methodology of entertainment to politics.
而是将政治变成了一种娱乐形式。
He turned politics into a form of entertainment.
这某种程度上也符合古罗马的生活特征。
And that, again, was something that was kind of a part of Roman life.
有些政治人物会利用角斗表演等娱乐形式来赢得民众支持。
There were political figures who used, you know, gladiatorial entertainments, whatever, as a way of winning popular support.
他们还常常嘲讽传统政治人物所维护的那些常规传统。
And they would they would mock the the the traditions that more conventional political figures upheld.
汤姆，我想和你谈谈这个话题，因为我们之前在其他场合讨论过罗马皇帝的相关内容。
So I wanted to talk to you about that, Tom, because I think you and I have talked about this in other contexts about, Roman emperors.
我知道特朗普是个极其富有的人。
So I know that, you know, Trump is a a is an exceedingly rich man.
实际上在很多方面，人们对他成为普通民众的代言人感到惊讶。
He's actually somebody who, in many ways, you know, people raise their eyebrows that he's the champion of the common man.
但在罗马，确实有些早期皇帝虽然出身富贵特权阶层，却非常成功地做到了你所说的——举办角斗比赛，讨好民众。
But but in Rome, there were obviously early emperors who, you know, steeped in in wealth and privilege, but who had enormous success in doing exactly what you've talked about, staging gladiatorial games, pandering to the mob.
比如卡利古拉、尼禄这样的皇帝，我们是在讨论这类统治者吗？
People like, I guess, Caligula Nero, are we talking about those kind of emperors?
所有罗马政客都极其富有。
All all Roman politicians were incredibly rich.
我的意思是，你必须得有钱。
Mean, I you had to be.
这和美国政治非常相似。
It was so so, again, very like American politics.
你如果没有相当富有就根本无法立足。
You just couldn't get anywhere without basically being very rich.
所以那其实并不是问题的关键。
So that that that that wasn't really the issue.
关键在于，你是在迎合普通民众的想法，还是坚定捍卫传统价值观？
The issue was, yeah, was essentially whether you were were you making a pitch to what the common guy thought, or or were you standing sternly for for the traditional values?
我的意思是，所有这类比较显然都牵强得离谱。
So compare I mean, all comparisons, obviously, like this are are are incredibly stretched.
但我觉得美国与罗马的对比并非完全如此，因为美利坚共和国确实是以罗马共和国为蓝本建立的。
But I think not entirely so with American Rome simply because the American Republic did found itself on the kind of model of of the Roman Republic.
我认为这种动态关系确实存在。
And I think you do get this this kind of dynamic.
所以特朗普的类比很恰当，你说他非常富有。
So Trump compares well, I mean, you say he's very rich.
他真是吗？
Is he?
我是说，这是问题之一。
I mean, that's one of the issues.
确实如此。
That's true.
但我——我确信你也知道，他如此拼命想保住总统职位的原因之一，实际上与尤利乌斯·凯撒有个有趣的相似点——因为凯撒曾长期游走在破产边缘。
But I and I I'm sure you know, one of the reasons why he's so desperate to cling on to the presidency is actually a kind of interesting parallel with with Julius Caesar because, Caesar constantly flirted with bankruptcy.
他通过投机来积累财富。
He he he speculated to accumulate.
在这个过程中，他曾多次严重触犯法律。
And in doing that, he brushed very, very heavily against the law.
所以对凯撒而言，威胁始终在于政敌会起诉他并让他接受审判。
So the threat for Caesar was always that his enemies would prosecute him and bring him to trial.
我们之前某期节目讨论过内战——
And one of the reasons ultimately you know, we talked about civil wars in a in a previous episode.
但凯撒最终选择渡过卢比孔河、将罗马卷入内战的原因之一，就是他被政敌逼入了绝境。
But one of the reasons why Caesar ends up crossing the Rubicon and involving Roman in a civil war is that he gets cornered by his enemies.
他的敌人想要起诉他。
His enemies want to prosecute him.
只要凯撒在共和国担任公职，就无法被起诉。
Caesar can't be prosecuted while he holds an official rank in in the republic.
他是高卢总督，所以不能被起诉。
So he's the governor of Gaul, so he can't be prosecuted.
一旦他卸任总督职位成为平民，就可以被起诉了。
The moment he lays that that governorship down and becomes a private citizen, then he can be prosecuted.
所以卢比孔河事件的关键在于，凯撒希望无缝衔接地从高卢总督转任执政官，以此规避被起诉的风险。
So the issue on the Rubicon is that Caesar wants to go seamlessly from being governor of Gaul to being consul so that he doesn't run the risk of of of prosecution.
而特朗普基本上处于类似的处境。
And, basically, Trump is in a kind of analogous situation.
我确信，如果像凯撒那样有身经百战的军团支持，他绝对不会放弃总统职位。
And I'm sure that if, like Caesar, he had battle hardened legions behind him, he absolutely wouldn't surrender the presidency.
确实。
Yeah.
我是说，他会毫不犹豫地越过那条红线。
I mean, he wouldn't hesitate to cross the the the ribbon.
但但但但，你知道，当前事件表明，实际上他并没有得到共和党的支持。
But but but but, you know, what current events show is that, actually, he he doesn't have the Republican party behind him.
没有。
No.
没有。
No.
我是说，你看到那个惊人的花园中心记者会了吗？
I mean, did you see that extraordinary did you see that press conference at the Garden Center?
那是我见过的最精彩的事情。
That, I think, is the that's my favorite thing that's ever happened.
你看到了吗？
Did you see that?
他原本想预订四季酒店的。
He tried to book the Four Seasons.
昨天，他试图为鲁迪·朱利安尼预订费城的四季酒店，以公布他那些关于选举舞弊的指控，但他们订错了地方。
So yesterday, he tried to book the Four Seasons Hotel in Philadelphia for Rudy Giuliani to unveil all his sort of ballot rigging claims, but they they booked the wrong place.
他们订了一个叫'四季全面景观'的地方，位于费城郊区，夹在一家性用品店和火葬场之间。
They booked a place called Four Seasons Total Landscaping in down in Suburban Philadelphia, which is between a sex shop and a crematorium.
而就在各大电视台宣布特朗普败选的那一刻，朱利安尼正在那里召开记者会。
And Giuliani was there giving the press conference at the very moment that the networks called the election for Trump.
用人们的话说，这是一种极其羞辱的方式——他的人生起点是乘着金色扶梯而下，
So it's this extraordinarily humiliating way to as people have said, you know, he started his Yeah.
终点却落在了费城园艺中心的停车场里。
He started his place where we're coming down a golden escalator, and he ended it in the car park of a of a Philadelphia garden center.
没错。
Right.
这完全不是站在卢比孔河畔，身后有军团支持，与神明同坐，等待号角响起召唤你走向荣耀的场景。
So that's very much not standing on the banks of the Rubicon with Legion behind you, sat with a god about to blow on a trumpet and summon you to glory.
但像尼禄和卡利古拉这样的角色呢？
But what about these characters like, like the Neros and the the Caligula's?
你知道，这些人完全能想象自己在做罗马版的发推文自夸和嘲讽对手的事——我是说，特朗普那种嘲讽对手的方式，这很罗马风格，不是吗？
You know, these people who you can absolutely imagine doing the Roman equivalent of tweeting how great they are and and and mocking their oppo I mean, the mocking your opponents, which Trump does, that's quite a Roman thing, isn't it?
是的。
Yes.
所以，对对手的大肆辱骂是非常罗马式的行为。
So so so wholesale abuse of your opponents is is is very much a Roman thing.
我认为奥古斯都，作为第一位皇帝，他的高明之处在于平衡这两种传统——一种是保持贵族传统，另一种是平民传统。
And I think that so Augustus, who's the first emperor, his genius is to keep these two traditions, the the tradition of the Bonny and the tradition of the Popularis, kind of in balance.
他能够游刃有余地驾驭这两种传统。
He he he is able to to play at both of them.
提比略则是个彻头彻尾的传统主义者。
Tiberius is is very much a traditionalist.
他有点像约翰·麦凯恩那样的人物。
He's very much a kind of John McCain figure.
继任的卡利古拉，他的天才在于发现可以将权力植根于民粹传统中——通过卡利古拉式的行为（比如驾着由数百匹马牵引的战车在城中）来获得极高的人气。
Caligula, who succeeds him, his his genius is to discover that you can root your power in the popularist tradition, that you can become very, very, popular by essentially Calicula kind of you know, he he roars around town in a in a with a chariot drawn by kind of hundreds of horses.
你知道吗？
You know?
这完全等同于拥有黄金
This is absolutely the equivalent of having, you know, gold
加长豪华轿车。
Stretch limo.
到处都是你的车。
Everywhere in your yeah.
加长豪车之类的东西。
Stretch limos and things like that.
所以这很能吸引人们。
So it's kind of appeals to people.
我是说，克利古勒明白这点。
I mean, Cligler understands that.
他明白通过彻底颠覆传统行事方式——通过羞辱元老院成员、嘲笑他们、威胁他们、有时甚至杀害他们——能赢得巨大的声望。
And he understands that he he can be he can win enormous popularity by ripping the piss out of out of the traditional way of doing things, out of kind of humiliating senators, out of mocking them, out of threatening them, out of sometimes killing them.
所以这就是
So that's
为什么他派
why he sent
那个给
that to
成为巨大声望的来源
be a source of great popularity
他。
him.
这就是为什么他让他的马当执政官。
That's why he makes his horse a consul.
对吧？
Right?
或者说他要让他的马当执政官，因为他想嘲弄这个制度。
Or says he's gonna make his horse a consul, because he wants to mock the institution.
所以他从未真的让他的马当执政官，但这其实是个玩笑，因为他实质上是在对元老们说：我的权力如此之大，只要我愿意，甚至能让我的马当执政官。
So he never makes his horse a consul, but it it it it's a joke because he's essentially saying to to to senators, I have so much power that if I want to, I could make my horse a consul.
是的。
Yeah.
但当然，最终书写历史的还是那些元老们。
And then but then, of course, the, it's the senators who write the history.
这有点像《纽约时报》那些撰写历史的人。
It's kind of the equivalent of The New York Times who who who who write the history.
所以卡利古拉在遇刺后遭到谴责——不是被元老们刺杀，而是被禁卫军所杀，这才是关键。
And so Caligula gets condemned after he gets assassinated, not by senators, but by the praetorians because that's the key thing.
千万别那样激怒你的基本盘。
Don't piss off your base like that.
嘲笑持剑之人是非常愚蠢的行为。
Very foolish to mock people who have swords.
没错。
Yeah.
所以卡利古拉忍不住——我是说，他实在忍不住要嘲讽别人。
So so Caligula can't help I mean, he's take he he can't help mocking people.
于是他嘲笑了禁卫军的一位指挥官，这成了致命错误。
And so he he mocks, a commander in the praetorian guard, which is a a fatal mistake.
正是这件事导致了他的覆灭。
And so that's what dooms him.
但在卡利古拉死后，他的玩笑被重新解读以证明他是个疯子。
But, after he after after Cleggley's death, his jokes get rewritten to demonstrate that he was insane.
我觉得某种程度上特朗普也遭遇了同样的情况，他那些本意是玩笑的话被重新解读成疯言疯语或独裁宣言之类的。
And I think there's a sense in which that's happened with Trump as well, that that things that he said as as jokes get rewritten to illustrate he's mad or a dictator or whatever.
是啊。
Yeah.
要知道，这就是失败者的宿命。
And and, you know, that's the fate of losers.
特朗普是个失败者。
Trump is a loser.
是的。
Yes.
我想，确实如此，不是吗？
I suppose, that's true, isn't it?
那尼禄呢？
And what about Nero?
所以尼禄也很特朗普式吗？
So is Nero also quite Trumpian?
我觉得他是，不是吗？
Think he he is, isn't he?
我是说，尼禄确实...我说得对吗？
Mean, Nero's got am I right?
尼禄也很胖，对吧？
Nero was fat as well, wasn't he?
他是个非常庞大的家伙。
He was very ginormous fellow.
是的。
Yes.
所以你会看到罗马政治中存在这种摇摆——传统主义者之后是平民派，然后又回到传统主义者。
So so you get this you get this kind of swing in in Roman politics where a traditionalist is succeeded by popularis, succeeded by a traditionalist.
因此在卡利古拉之后，继位的是克劳狄乌斯，他是个古文物研究者，对罗马传统非常热衷。
So after Colegola, you get Claudius, who's who's an antiquarian, very interested in Roman tradition.
接着尼禄登场，他完全是个平民主义者，甚至到了公开演奏里拉琴的程度。
And then you get Nero, who is absolutely a popularist to the degree that he, you know, he does equivalent know, he he plays the lyre in public.
他还在奥运会上参加战车比赛。
He races chariots at the Olympics.
他登台表演。
He appears on the stage.
这大概相当于特朗普在格拉斯顿伯里音乐节上压轴演出吧。
And this would be the equivalent of Trump, I guess, kind of headlining Glastonbury from one.
那是
That's a
极不可能给自己颁发奥斯卡奖，横扫奥斯卡各大奖项。
very unlikely awarding himself awarding himself at Oscar, sweeping the board at the Oscars.
但是，我的意思是，那又，你知道，
But, I mean, that's But, again, you know,
特朗普早就在《学徒》节目里这么干过了。
Trump did that first straight with The Apprentice and all that.
确实如此。
Absolutely.
而且人们喜欢这样，人们觉得这很有趣。
And and and people like it, and people are amused by it.
当尼禄去世时，尽管所有类似《纽约时报》的媒体都对此欣喜若狂，但也有许多人感到失落，他的墓前摆满了鲜花。
And when and when Nero dies, although all the kind of New York Times equivalents are ecstatic about it, there are lots of people who are left bereft and flowers are laid on his grave.
甚至有人在希腊冒出来，假装自己是尼禄。
And there are even people who who kind of pop up in Greece pretending to be Nero.
显然，如果没有人对尼禄有需求，假装成尼禄就没有任何意义了。
And, obviously, there's no capital in pretending to be Nero if there isn't a kind of market for Nero.
是啊。
Yeah.
奇怪的是，这显然会在美国发生。
In a weird way, that's actually clearly gonna happen in America.
对吧？
Right?
人们会试图争夺——现在假设唐纳德·特朗普可能因年龄太大而无法在2024年再次参选，届时将有一场争夺战。
That people will try there will now be a fight assuming that Donald Trump is probably too old to run again in 2024, there will be a fight And
还要假设他不会入狱。
and assuming he doesn't go to prison.
没错。
Yes.
但即便他入狱，也会有人争夺继承他的衣钵，成为新的特朗普，迎合那种大众化的传统，不是吗？
But even if he does, there will be a fight to inherit his mantle, to be the the new Donald Trump, to appeal to that sort of popularized tradition, won't it?
你不这么认为吗？
Don't you think?
是啊。
Yeah.
我想这就是特朗普与尼克松的不同之处，没人想成为新的尼克松。
And I guess that would be a difference between Trump and Nixon, is that no one wanted to be the new Nixon.
确实没有。
No.
不过不过，有趣的是尼克松本人其实已经名誉扫地。
Although although, here's the interesting thing that Nixon himself was discredited.
我是说，我知道他接受过大卫·弗罗斯特的采访，也在牛津联盟发表过演讲。
I mean, I know he did his interviews with David Frost when he spoke at the Oxford Union.
他试图把自己塑造成政治家和智者形象，但始终未能真正成功。
He tried to sort of transform himself into a statesman and sage, but he never quite pulled it off.
但尼克松的政治遗产却延续了下来。
But Nixon's politics endured.
所以我认为很多美国政治历史学家会说，尼克松才是真正开创并完善了'反建制派、诉诸平民'这一政治路线的人。
So Nixon I I think a lot of American political historians would say, you know, Nixon is the is the man who really invents and perfects the appeal to the little guy as opposed to the establishment.
所以他转向
So he turns
那么他的继承者是谁？
So who are his heirs?
他的继承者，某种程度上说是里根
So his heirs I mean, Reagan, to some extent.
里根，你知道，也标榜'我是个普通人'
Reagan, you know, is also, you know, I'm an ordinary person.
我不是个傲慢的势利眼
I'm not a stuck up snob.
里根的全部说辞就是'我是个普通的中产阶级美国人'
I'm not you know, Reagan's whole pitch was that I am an ordinary middle American.
虽然我曾在好莱坞之类的地方待过，但我代表的是美国普通老百姓的利益
You know, I happen to have been in Hollywood and all the rest of it, but I speak for the, you know, Main Street America.
而特朗普显然是把这种诉求推向了一个更激进的形态
And that's obviously you know, Trump's is a more aggressive form of that appeal.
但这与二十世纪中叶或二十世纪初共和党的吸引力截然不同。
But it's a a world away from the Republican appeal in the mid twentieth century or the early twentieth century.
共和党显然是一个更为保守和精英化的政党，远非尼克松之后演变的那样。
The Republican Party was clearly a much more sort of stayed and elitist party than it became under from Nixon onwards.
所以尼克松在学校里并没有。
So Nixon at at school no.
确切地说，在大学时，他创立了一个名为'正交者'的社团，即正直之人。
At college, rather, he'd founded a society called the Orthogonians, the square shooters.
你知道，这个社团的宗旨是：我们不是校园里的特权阶层。
And they were you know, it was all about we are not the the the privileged people on campus.
我们是普通人。
We are the ordinary people.
我们就是那种小人物。
We are the the kind of little guys.
我们爱拿比我们强的人开玩笑。
We poke fun at our betters.
我们嘲笑那些精英。
We poke fun at the elite.
在尼克松学生时代创立的那个社团里，你可以，你能看到当前共和党政治的轮廓——我们支持小镇、乡村对抗大城市，那些高学历人群等等。
And that in that society that Nixon founded when he was a student, you can see the the kind of contours of Republican Party politics right now, that we champion, you know, the small town, the rural village against the big cities, the the the highly educated people, you know, all of that kind of thing.
我认为尼克松所创造的这种政治形态将会持续下去。
And I think that thing that Nixon created that, and that will endure.
所以那些对美国政治比我了解得多的评论员说，特朗普创造了一个新的选民群体。
And so commentators who who know vastly more about American politics than I do are saying that, Trump has kind of created a new constituency Yeah.
少数族裔选民的支持程度出乎意料。
Unexpected degree of support from from minority voters.
也许未来的共和党候选人能够利用这一点。
And perhaps that's something that the the future Republican candidate will be able to draw on.
是的。
Yes.
但我想知道，你对他在过去几天里的行为方式有什么看法？他可能在白宫剩下的几个月里还会继续这样做。
But I wonder, what do you think about the the way in which he's behaved, over the past few days, presumably will be behaving over the the months that he has left in the White House?
你认为这对美国民主制度的根基会造成多大程度的破坏？
How how damaging do you think that it will be to the fabric of American democracy?
这是否会成为未来候选人（无论是民主党还是共和党）可以汲取教训的事件？
And is it something that that future candidates, I guess, Democrat as well as Republican, might kind of draw lessons from?
还是说，它会被视为像尼克松事件那样令人尴尬的插曲？
Or or or will it be remembered as a kind of embarrassing incident like the Nixon?
我认为实际上很可能是后者。
I think it will probably be the latter, actually.
在这件事发生前，包括我在内的许多人都认为这可能对美国政治造成严重破坏和毒害，甚至腐蚀民主赖以生存的多元主义——你知道的，就是如果你输了，你会选择离开，而你的对手不会因此杀害你或把你关进监狱之类的。
I so before this all happened, I mean, a lot of people, and and myself included, thought this could be really damaging and toxic for American politics, that it could actually corrode the pluralism that democracy depends on, which is basically, as you know, that if you if you lose, you walk away and your opponents don't then kill you or or put you in jail or something.
因为他们知道当他们失败时，你也会同样尊重地对待他们。
Because they know that when they lose, you won't do you know, you'll treat them with respect as well.
很多人曾担心这将是一场彻底的灾难，会导致街头骚乱等等。
And I think a lot of people feared that this would be a complete disaster and that, you know, there'd be riots on the streets and all the rest of it.
但实际上发生的是——他已经被众人嘲笑了，不是吗？
But actually, what's happened I mean, he's been ridiculed, hasn't he?
共和党媒体大多已抛弃了他，福克斯新闻、纽约邮报等都是如此。
The Republican media have largely abandoned him, Fox News, the New York Post, and so on.
共和党并未公开表示支持他。
The Republican Party have not come out in in support of him.
实际上，我认为这将被铭记为一场典型的、悲喜交加的特朗普式闹剧——他以这种荒诞、混乱、甚至有些可悲的方式离开了总统职位。
And actually, I think it will be remembered as a a classic sort of tragicomic Trump episode that, you know, he he he left office in this ridiculous, shambolic, slightly actually, slightly pitiful way.
而事实上，如果他能勉强认输（另一种可能性）的话，他的政治遗产...
And, actually, his his legacy, if he had sort of grumpily conceded, which is the alternative.
显然，我们根本无法想象他会优雅地承认败选。
I mean, it's obviously impossible to imagine him graciously conceding.
但如果他能带着不情愿和怨气认输，那么他的政治遗产或许不会像现在这样蒙尘。
But if he'd kind of reluctantly and rather bitterly conceded, then, you know, I think his legacy would be well, it would be less tarnished than it is right now.
你不这么认为吗？
Don't you?
而且如果...
And and what if,
要是他最终被强行拖出白宫呢？
what if after he's, if he ever gets out of the White House, they drag him out?
我是说，万一他被起诉了呢？
I mean, what if he gets prosecuted?
万一他被定罪了呢？
What if he gets convicted?
万一他入狱了呢？
What if he gets goes to prison?
这会造成什么样的影响？
What kind of impact would that have?
首先，我认为他不会入狱。
Well, first of all, I I don't think he will go to prison.
唐纳德·特朗普可是个中老手。
I mean, Donald Trump is an expert.
要说他真正精通什么，那就是打官司了。
If there's any one thing he knows a lot about is litigation.
我认为他和他的律师会找到办法拖延任何审判和案件。
And I think he and his lawyers will find ways to prolong any trial, you know, and any case.
会有没完没了的上诉。
There'll be appeals and appeals.
实际上我也不认为公众对此有多大兴趣，很多美国人只希望这场闹剧结束，就像当年对待尼克松那样。
I also don't actually think there's that much appetite for and and I think people a lot of Americans just want the soap opera to end, rather like they did with Nixon.
所以尼克松被继任者杰拉尔德·福特特赦，基本上是因为他们觉得'是的，他显然有罪，但我们只想就此了结'。
So Nixon was pardoned by his successor, Gerald Ford, basically because they thought, yeah, he is clearly guilty of crimes, but we we just wanna put this thing to bed now.
我们不想让这件事在未来五年里一直困扰着我们。
You know, we don't want it hanging over us for the next five years.
我认为这就是人们对特朗普的感受。
And I think that's what people feel about Trump.
问题在于他并不是个很有说服力的殉道者，对吧？
He the thing is he doesn't make a very persuasive martyr, does he?
我的意思是，他确实不是。
I mean, he's not No.
扮演受害者确实不在他的技能范围内。
He's that's not really in his sort of skill set, playing the victim.
这是特朗普最讨厌做的事，因为他厌恶失败者。
That's something that Trump hates to do, because he hates losers.
是啊。
Yeah.
所以我真的认为，他会在特朗普大厦里生闷气，用推特度过余生。
So I I don't really I think he will go and sulk in Trump Tower for the and tweet for the rest of his days.
而且他会试图影响共和党的未来走向。
And he'll try to have an influence over the future of the Republican Party.
所以他将会成为美国版的爱德华·希斯？
So he he he he will become the the Edward Heath of American people?
这是个非常
That is a very
的类比，对收听播客的美国听众来说。
Analogy said to any American listeners to the podcast.
我确实
I I really
没有人比我更享受爱德华·希思的类比了。
nobody enjoys, an Edward Heath analogy more than I do.
是的。
Yes.
他会躲在美国版的索尔兹伯里弹钢琴，或者就他而言，打很多高尔夫。
He'll be holed up in the American equivalent to Salisbury playing his piano, or in his case, playing a lot of golf.
嗯，我认为这是个完美的结束语。
Well, I think I think that is a perfect note on which to end.
我们最后引用现任总统唐纳德·J·特朗普昨晚用大写字母发布的推文：'我以很大优势赢得了这次选举。'
We'll finish with the words of, for now, president Donald j Trump, who tweeted last night in capital letters, I won this election by a lot.
尽管乔·拜登获得了约500万张更多选票。
And this despite Joe Biden receiving around 5,000,000 more votes.
我们下次见。
Bye from us.
下次见。
See you next time.
感谢收听《The Rest is History》。
Thanks for listening to the rest is history.
如需获取额外剧集、提前收听、无广告版本及加入我们的聊天社区，请登录restishistorypod.com注册。
For bonus episodes, early access, ad free listening, and access to our chat community, please sign up at restishistorypod.com.
网址是restishistorypod.com。
That's restishistorypod.com.
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