本集简介
双语字幕
仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
如果你想从节目中获得更多信息，请加入‘余下皆历史’俱乐部。
If you want more from the show, join the rest is history club.
随着圣诞节临近，你还可以为身边热爱历史的人赠送一整年的会员资格。
And with Christmas coming, you can also gift a whole year of access to the history lover in your life.
只需访问 restishistory.com，然后点击‘礼物’选项。
Just head to the restishistory.com and click gifts.
这不会容易。
It won't be easy.
当我试图解释我的感受时，你会觉得这很奇怪。
You'll think it's strange when I try to explain how I feel.
但我依然需要你对我所做的一切给予爱。
But I still need your love for all that I've done.
你不会相信我。
You won't believe me.
你所看到的，只是一个你曾经认识的女孩，尽管她打扮得光鲜亮丽。
All you will see is a girl you once knew, although she's dressed up to the nines.
和你乱七八糟的。
At sixes and sevens with you.
我不得不让它发生。
I had to let it happen.
我不得不改变。
I had to change.
我不能一辈子落魄潦倒，整天窗边张望，避着阳光。
Couldn't stay all my life down at heel, looking out of the window, staying out of the sun.
所以我选择了自由，四处奔走，尝试一切新鲜事物，但没有一样真正打动我。
So I chose freedom, running around, trying everything new, but nothing impressed me at all.
我从未指望它们能打动我。
I never expected it to.
别为我哭泣，阿根廷。
Don't cry for me, Argentina.
事实上，在我放纵的日子、疯狂的生活中，我从未真正离开过你。
The truth is I never left you through my wild days, mad existence.
我保留了我的胸衣。
I kept my bra.
别离我太远。
Don't keep your distance.
所以，多米尼克，刚才在迈阿密混音版《不要为我哭泣，阿根廷》中演唱的是麦当娜，这首歌当然由安德鲁·劳埃德·韦伯和蒂姆·赖斯创作。
So, Dominic, that was Madonna playing Evita in the Miami mix of Don't Cry For Me Argentina, written, of course, by Andrew Lloyd Webber and Tim Rice.
汤姆，麦当娜的声音怎么了？
Tom, what happened to Madonna's voice?
你听出来了吗？
Could you tell?
其实那是我。
It was actually me.
她是在用西班牙口音唱歌吗？
Was she singing in a Spanish accent?
这是故意的吗？
Is that deliberate?
没有。
No.
那是美式口音。
That was American.
真的吗？
Oh, really?
那是美式口音？
That was American?
是的。
Yeah.
那是美式口音。
It was an American accent.
你能听出来。
You could tell.
你能吗？
Could you?
总之，今天我们要聊聊埃娃·佩隆，也就是艾薇塔。
Anyway, so today, we are looking at Eva Peron aka Evita.
嗯。
Yeah.
她在我心中占有一席之地，那首歌也在我心中有特殊的位置。
And she has a place in my heart, and that particular track has a place in my heart.
哦，真好。
Oh, that's nice.
你看过这部电影吗？
Did you ever see the film?
我看过。
I did.
这部电影是在圣诞节刚过不久上映的。
So it came out just after Christmas.
你可能还记得，我们之前做过的关于迪斯科的那一集，对吧？
And, you may remember in the episode we did on disco Yes.
我提到过，萨迪和我都是Love Muscle酒吧的常客。
I mentioned that, Sadie and I were great habituates of Love Muscle Yeah.
在布里克斯顿的冰箱酒吧。
At the fridge in Brixton.
是的。
Yeah.
而且《伊娃》这部电影是在圣诞节后几天上映的，我想。
And and the film of Vita came out, I think, a couple of days after Christmas.
当时有个传言说，为了庆祝电影上映，冰箱酒吧的Love Muscle将举办一场盛大的伊娃主题之夜。
And there was a rumor that there was gonna be a big Vita night to celebrate it coming out at the fridge at Love Muscle.
传言说麦当娜本人会亲自到场。
And, the rumor was that Madonna herself was going to turn up.
真让人兴奋。
Cranky.
所以我们从圣诞节度假的地方一路开车回来，穿上最漂亮的衣服，去参加了那个夜晚的活动。
So we drove all the way back from where we'd been staying Christmas to go to it, dressed up in our glad rags, and went to the night.
什么？
What?
你打扮成伊娃了吗？
Did you dress as Evita?
是的。
Yeah.
伊娃或者佩隆上校。
Evita or Colonel Perron.
我记不清是哪一个了。
I can't remember one of the two.
我的意思是，你肯定会记得的，汤姆。
I mean, you would remember that, Tom.
这说明你确实是打扮成伊娃了。
So that suggests that you did dress as Evita.
总之，我们继续吧。
Anyway, let's move on.
我们去了那里，当然，麦当娜没出现。
And we went there, and, of course, Madonna didn't turn up.
没有。
No.
但那是一个极其精彩的夜晚。
But it was a brilliant, brilliant evening.
你知道的，他们唱了那首歌。
You know, they'd sang that.
他们还唱了其他各种各样的歌曲。
They sang all kinds of other stuff.
人群中还有人举着庇隆主义的标语到处挥舞。
And they had people in the crowds with Peronist slogans waving it around.
我记得当时心想，这简直太疯狂了。
And I remember thinking this is completely mad.
还有哪个南美历史人物能引发如此一夜？
What other figure from South American history would inspire a night like this?
我会去参加西蒙·玻利瓦尔之夜。
I'd go to a Simon Bolivar night.
他们在布里克斯顿可不会办这种活动。
They don't hold it that in Brixton.
他们没办过。
They didn't have it.
没有。
No.
因此，我之前对埃维塔一无所知，但接下来的一年里我读了很多关于她的资料。
And so as a result of that, I didn't really know anything about Evita, but I read about her a lot over the following year.
当然，电影和音乐剧以埃维塔的葬礼开场，所有人都悲痛不已。
And, of course, the film and the musical opens with Evita's funeral where everyone's terribly upset.
当然，1997年——也就是戴安娜去世的年代——没错。
And, of course, 1997, which is the era of Diana's death Yes.
那正是阅读埃维塔故事的完美年份。
Was the perfect year to be reading about Evita.
确实如此。
It's true.
这是个很好的观点。
It's a good point.
汤姆，首先，这是一个动人的故事。
Tom, well, first of that is a lovely story.
是的。
Yeah.
谢谢。
Thank you.
这让我们对伊娃的崇拜和阿根廷历史有了很好的洞察。
And it gives us a wonderful insight, I think, into the cult of Evita and Argentine history.
是的。
Yeah.
但同时，汤姆，你并不孤单。
But also, Tom, you're in very good company.
因为你知道吗，你让我想起了一个人，他也曾特意参与过对埃维塔的崇拜，去伦敦观看了一场以埃维塔为主题的演出，就像你一样，而这个人经常被人拿来和你比较。
Because do you know who you remind me of Who also went out of their way to engage with the cult of Evita to go to a performance that would be Evita themed in London like you and somebody with whom you've often been compared actually.
会不会是铁娘子呢？
Would it be the iron lady by any chance?
就是铁娘子。
It would be the iron lady.
所以1978年8月，玛格丽特·撒切尔和她的演讲撰稿人罗尼·米勒一起观看了《埃维塔》。
So in August 1978, Margaret Thatcher went to see Evita with her speech writer, Ronnie Miller.
就是安德鲁·劳埃德·韦伯的音乐剧。
So the Andrew Lloyd Webber musical.
她回来后，给罗尼·米勒写了一封信，这封信现在保存在她的档案中。
And after she'd got back, she wrote Ronnie Miller a letter, which is in her archive.
信中写道：亲爱的罗尼，昨天晚上是一段奇妙而令人深思的时光，留下了许多值得思考的东西。
And it says, dear Ronnie, it was a strangely wondrous evening yesterday leaving so much to think about.
我至今仍感到有些不安，这正像许多收听这个播客的听众一样，汤姆，听完你的演唱后，他们也会有同样的感受。
I still find myself rather disturbed by it, which is exactly how a lot of listeners to this podcast would be feeling, Tom, having listened to your singing.
她说，如果他们能在没有理想的情况下做到这一点，那么如果我们以同样的完美与创造力来传达我们的信息，三十年后我们或许也能为一部名为《玛格丽特》的歌剧提供良好的历史素材。
And she says, now if they can do that without any ideals, then if we apply the same perfection and creativeness to our message, we should provide good historic material for an opera called Margaret in thirty years' time.
所以你是这个播客里的铁娘子，对吧？
So you are the iron lady of this podcast, aren't are you not?
她这么说有点苛刻了，我
She's being harsh there, I
我认为，撒切尔夫人对《贝隆夫人》的看法不对，因为我觉得贝隆夫人确实是有理想的。
think, missus Thatcher on Evita, because I think Evita did have ideals.
她确实有。
She did indeed.
但我的意思是，实际上，贝隆夫人和撒切尔夫人之间在某些方面简直荒谬地相似。
But, I mean, I think, actually, the parallels between Evita and missus Thatcher on one level, absolutely mad.
她们处于政治光谱的两端。
They're at opposite ends of the political spectrum.
是的。
Yeah.
但另一方面
But on the other
我期待着这一点。
I'm looking forward to this.
对登上舞台中心的执着，我想，
The devotion to, I suppose, to kind of taking center stage
嗯。
Mhmm.
以及扮演女高音，而这正是安德鲁·劳埃德·韦伯音乐剧的核心所在。
And playing the diva, which is, of course, what the Andrew Lloyd Webber musical is all about.
它巧妙地运用了歌剧的元素，比如悲剧女主角等等。
It's kind of playing with riffs of opera, the tragic heroine, and all that kind of thing.
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Of course.
伊娃和哈彻夫人都非常擅长扮演女明星。
And both Evita and missus Hatcher were very good at playing the diva.
而且，她们两人同时被爱戴和憎恨。
And, also, both of them were simultaneously loved and hated.
确实如此。
They were.
这完美地说明了女性政治家或政治人物通常比男性引发更强烈的反应。
And it's a perfect example of how a female politician or political figure, generally, I would say, elicits stronger reactions than a man does.
极端的反应。
Extreme reactions.
当然。
Of course.
但已经有很多女性领导人了，嗯。
But there have been lots of female leaders Mhmm.
确实，在阿根廷就是这样。
Indeed in Argentina.
是的。
Yeah.
克里斯蒂娜·基什内尔。
Christina Kirchner.
是的。
Yeah.
但我认为，自二战以来，伊娃和撒切尔夫人可能是最具“天后”气质的女性政治领袖了，你不这么认为吗？
But I think that Evita and missus Thatcher are probably the most diva esque female political leaders since the war, wouldn't you say?
我认为是二十世纪的战争以来，汤姆。
Since the war of the twentieth century, I would say, Tom.
毫无疑问。
With no question.
是的。
Yeah.
伊娃无疑是二十世纪最著名的女性公众人物之一，恐怕撒切尔夫人、英迪拉·甘地，或者以色列的果尔达·梅厄也算在内。
Evita is easily one of the most famous female public figures of the twentieth century, probably missus Thatcher in Indira Gandhi, I guess, or Golda Maya in Israel.
但她们并没有一部大热的音乐剧以她们为主题。
But they haven't had a a smash hit musical written about.
没错。
No.
她有一部关于她的音乐剧，这一点非常能说明问题。
And the fact that she had a musical written about her is very revealing.
她是一个娱乐圈的产物。
She was a creature of show business.
是因为她是一名演员吗？
Because she was an actress?
是的。
Yes.
正如我们稍后将讨论的，这不仅仅是她的表演，她的政治理念也深受她在广播中所演绎的肥皂剧式情节的影响。
As we will discuss, it's not just her performance, but her politics is enormously informed by the soap opera melodramas that she embodied on the radio.
从这个意义上说，我认为我们其实可以将她与美国的里根进行比较。
And in that sense, I think there's actually a comparison we're on of Reagan in America.
当我们制作关于里根的系列节目时，我们讨论过里根的世界观、自我认知以及他向美国选民传达的信息，都深受他在好莱坞经历的影响。
When we did our Reagan series, we talked about how Reagan's worldview, his sense of himself, the message he took to American voters, was really strongly informed by his time in Hollywood.
好莱坞的经历并非玩笑或偶然。
The Hollywood thing wasn't a joke or an accident.
它真的非常重要。
It was really important.
我认为艾娃·裴隆也是如此，她上世纪三四十年代的演艺背景，某种程度上就是她的政治本身。
And I think it's exactly the same thing with Eva Peron, that her show business background in the nineteen thirties and nineteen forties actually is her politics in a weird way.
这种对 spectacle（ spectacle）、表演和感伤的崇拜，一直是阿根廷政治的核心。
And that sort of cult of the spectacle and of performance and sentimentality has been at the heart of Argentine politics Yeah.
从那以后一直如此。
Ever since.
此外，还有一个你无法在撒切尔和里根身上看到的更深层维度，那就是天主教维度。
And there's also a further dimension which you don't get with Thatcher and Reagan, which is the Catholic dimension.
是的。
Yeah.
因为圣艾薇塔——正如她在音乐剧和布宜诺斯艾利斯街头被尊称的那样，当她作为主角闪耀时，这是一种真实的表达。
Because Santa Evita, as she's hailed both in the musical and on the streets of Buenos Aires when she was, you know, the star of the show, that is a genuine expression.
她去世后，曾有人推动将她封圣。
When she died, there were moves to have her canonized.
确实有过这样的尝试。
There were.
绝对有。
Absolutely.
但梵蒂冈以我们将要探讨的原因拒绝了这一请求。
Which the Vatican rejected for reasons that we will explore.
但显然，天主教仪式公共展示所蕴含的戏剧性，也是艾薇塔神话的一部分，使她成为一个非凡至极的题材。
But, obviously, the sense of drama that public displays of Catholic ritual have is something else that is a part of the Evita mythos and just makes her an amazing, amazing subject.
同意，汤姆。
Agreed, Tom.
所以，这就是我们今天要做的。
So that's what we're gonna do today.
这让我想起了一点。
It reminds me a little bit.
我们以前做过一期关于圣凯瑟琳·锡耶纳的节目，她的痛苦和自我苦修，她那可见的苦难，以及她拥抱那些重病患者等种种行为。
We did an episode back, the Saint Catherine of Siena, whose suffering and whose sort of self mortification, whose visible suffering, the fact that she embraces people who are deeply, deeply ill and all of that kind of thing.
所以，这难道不是一种现象吗？
So there's a thing, isn't there?
她亲吻了一个麻风病人。
She kisses a leper.
伊娃亲吻了一个麻风病人。
Evita kisses a leper.
是的。
Yes.
有人冲上前去，试图用酒精擦拭她的嘴唇。
And someone rushes forward and and tries to swab her lips with alcohol.
她把瓶子打碎了。
She smashes the bottle.
是的。
Yes.
她说，不。
And she says, no.
你知道，这些人是我的人民。
You know, these are my people.
你可以说她是凯瑟琳和锡耶纳与戴安娜之间的纽带，你提到过戴安娜。
You could say she's the link between Catherine and Siena and Diana, who you mentioned.
而且，正如我希望我们能展示的那样，她也是凯瑟琳、锡耶纳和唐纳德·特朗普之间的纽带。
She's also, as I hope we will show, she's the link between Catherine and Siena and Donald Trump.
她的政治立场与唐纳德·特朗普并不相同，但我们会看到，她完全讲究氛围，不是吗？
Her politics are not the same as Donald Trump's, but we will see how She's all about the vibe, isn't she?
氛围，风格。
The vibe, the style.
政治即风格。
Politics as style.
这是一个精彩的故事，我们将在本周内讲述。
So it's an amazing story, and we'll be doing it in the course of this week.
伊娃的背景、她的崛起、她与庇隆的关系、她非凡的死亡，以及这些如何演变成一场公众闹剧，还有随后更加离奇的故事，没错。
Evita's background, her rise, her relationship with Peron, her extraordinary death, and the way in which that becomes this public melodrama, and then the even more bizarre story Yeah.
我简直疯了。
I'm absolutely mad.
关于她的遗体、她的声誉、她的幽灵接下来发生了什么，以及二十世纪七十年代人们在阿根廷政治混乱、恐怖袭击和爆炸事件中试图成为伊娃的种种努力，这真是最不可思议的故事。
About what happens next to her body, to her reputation, to her ghost, and the attempts of people to basically be Evita in the nineteen seventies amid the chaos of Argentine sort of politics with terrorism and bombings, and it is the most amazing story.
让我们从这位女性及其背景开始。
Let's start, obviously, with the woman and her background.
我们现在回到二十世纪一十年代的阿根廷，我想，我们不能在这上面花太多时间。
So we are in Argentina in the late nineteen tens, and I think, you know, we can't spend ages on all this.
但为了让你了解阿根廷，我想强调四点重要的事情。
But just to give you four things I think it's important to have in our heads about Argentina.
首先，阿根廷无疑是移民的国家。
First of all, Argentina is par excellence the country of immigrants.
在她的一生中，阿根廷的人口几乎增长了四倍，这些移民大多来自意大利、西班牙和德国，且常常十分贫困。
So in her lifetime, its population almost quadrupled, and these are people who are quite poor often coming from Italy, Spain, and Germany.
在她早年时期，阿根廷大约有三分之一的人口出生在国外。
During her early years, probably a third of the Argentine population had been born overseas.
他们来到阿根廷，是因为这里被视为应许之地，充满了对美好新生活和乌托邦世界的无限憧憬。
They had arrived in Argentina because it's the promised land, great hopes for this wonderful new life, this utopian world into which they are coming.
但阿根廷不是一个富裕繁荣的国家吗？
But it is a rich and prosperous country, isn't it?
它确实是一个非常富裕繁荣的国家。
It's a very rich and prosperous country.
但关键是，当你带着巨大期望来到一个地方，而现实却不如预期时，很容易感到挫败。
But, of course, the thing is you arrive somewhere with great ambitions, you are very easily frustrated if it doesn't work out.
是的。
Yeah.
于是人们就会寻找替罪羊。
And you look for someone to blame.
正如吉米·奈尔所说，阿瓦，要小心这座城市。
Well, in the words of Jimmy Nail, Ava, beware of the city.
吉米·奈尔。
Jimmy Nail.
我没想过我们会在播客里提到吉米·奈尔。
I didn't think we'd have Jimmy Nail on the podcast.
真不错。
That's nice.
我们节目的朋友丹·杰克逊会喜欢这个。
Our friend of the show, Dan Jackson, will enjoy that.
第二，阿根廷是一个被一座城市主导的国家，那就是布宜诺斯艾利斯。
Number two, Argentina is a country dominated by one city, Buenos Aires.
巨大的港口。
Huge port.
它面向旧世界，尤其是英国。
It looks out to the old world and particularly to Britain, actually.
它融入了英国帝国的经济网络。
It's integrated into British imperial economic networks.
在它背后是广袤的农业腹地——潘帕斯草原，而希正是来自那里。
And behind it is this vast agricultural hinterland, the Pampas, which is where Xi comes from.
许多所谓的统治阶级、寡头阶层，要么是英国人，要么深受英国影响。
And a lot of the people who are kind of the ruling classes, the oligarchic classes, are either British or very influenced by Britain.
我的意思是，这就是足球为何如此盛行的原因。
I mean, that's how football becomes so huge.
没错。
Exactly.
所以足球、马球、橄榄球，我们稍后会讨论其中一些。
So football, polo, rugby, we'll discuss some of this later on.
因此，记住这一点很重要。
So it's important to sort of remember that.
第三点，我认为，阿根廷在拉丁美洲乃至整个地区都独特地面向欧洲。
The third thing, I think, is that Argentina uniquely, even in Latin America, it looks to Europe.
它自视为一个欧洲国家。
It sees itself as a kind of a European country.
它拥有极少的非洲奴隶，这些人最终完全被同化了。
It had a very small population of African slaves who ended up being completely assimilated.
印第安原住民，所谓的印第安人，大多已灭绝，仅剩极少数。
The Indian indigenous population, so called Indian, largely extinct, but very few of them left.
因此，他们相当欧洲化。
So they're fairly European.
他们总是仰望欧洲，但同时又强烈意识到自己位于南美洲最边缘、最末端的位置。
They're always looking to Europe, but at the same time, they're very conscious of being out on them complete margins, the very bottom of South America.
我认为，许多政治学家都写过这一点。
And there's a sense, I think, lots of sort of political scientists have written about this.
他们既渴望效仿欧洲，尤其是英国，却又感到被冷落、被遗忘。
There's a sense of a desire to emulate Europe and particularly particularly Britain, Britain, but but also also a sense of being snubbed and being forgotten Mhmm.
并且被轻视。
And put down.
我认为这非常重要。
And I think that's really important.
其次，阿根廷一直有着深刻分裂与不平等的历史。
And then the fourth thing is that Argentina has always had a history of very deep division and inequality.
因此，在整个十九世纪，即独立后的第一个世纪里，它被无尽的内战撕裂——一方是布宜诺斯艾利斯的中央集权派（统一派），另一方是希望在各省保留权力的联邦派地主。
So throughout the nineteenth century, during its first century of independence, it was torn apart by endless civil wars between Unitarians who were centralists in Buenos Aires and Federalists, you know, the landowners who wanted to keep their power out in the provinces.
后来，又出现了位于波洛赛的旧土地精英与日益壮大的城市工人阶级之间的巨大紧张关系。
And then later on, you have a great deal of tension between the old landed elites that based at the polo set and this swelling mass of urban workers.
所以，关于阿根廷政治的背景，你其实只需要知道这些。
So that's all you need to know really about the background to Argentine politics.
嗯，也不是全部，但就这个播客的目的而言，这些就是你需要知道的全部。
Well, it's not all you need to know, but it's all you need to know for the purposes of the podcast.
有
There
还有更多可说的，对吧，本？
is more to say, isn't there, Ben?
是的。
Yeah.
目前是这样。
For now.
因此，她后来成为的伊娃·庇隆，于1990年5月出生在阿根廷中部一个名叫洛斯托洛斯的无名之地，距离布宜诺斯艾利斯约150英里。
So Eva Peron, as she becomes, is born in this nothing place called Los Tolos in the sort of middle of Argentina, a 150 miles from Buenos Aires in May 1990.
那意味着帐篷，对吧？
And that means the tents, doesn't it?
所以这是对曾经存在于那里的原住民营地的一种暗示。
So it's a kind of an allusion to the kind of the native encampment that had once been there.
没错。
It is.
正是如此。
Exactly.
她成长时，村外的小棚屋里住着寥寥无几的原住民，每逢节日，你就能看到他们穿着披风骑马游荡。
When she was growing up, there would have been a handful of native people living in hovels, sort of shacks outside the village, and you would see them at feast days kind of riding around in their ponchos and stuff.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但总的来说，这是一个由农民和农业工人组成的村庄。
But by and large, it's a village of farm workers, farm laborers.
那里没什么可做的，是吧？
There's not a lot to do there, is there?
那里什么都没有。
There's nothing to do.
所以主要的娱乐活动是斗鸡。
So the big sport is cockfighting.
所以如果你喜欢斗鸡的话
So if you like cockfighting
嗯。
Yeah.
我的意思是，也许这还不错。
I mean, maybe that's good.
但除此之外，如果你不喜欢斗鸡，那里真的没什么可做的。
But otherwise, if you don't like cockfighting, there's literally nothing to do.
我认为，即使你喜欢斗鸡，也有更好的地方可去。
I think even if you like cockfighting, there are better places to be.
是的。
Yeah.
过一阵子就会有点无聊。
It gets a bit boring after a while.
所以她的父亲叫胡安·杜阿尔特，43岁，来自20英里外的一个小镇。
So her father is a man called Juan Duarte, who's 43, and he comes from a town 20 miles away.
他是一名庄园经理。
And he works as an estate manager.
他并没有和她母亲结婚。
He's not married to her mother.
所以他四十多岁了。
So he's in his forties.
她母亲是一位名叫胡安娜·伊巴尔格伦的巴斯克女性。
Her mother is a woman called Juana Ibargueren, who's a Basque.
就像瓦桑别墅的主教练乌奈·埃梅里一样。
Like Unai Emery, the manager of Vassan Villa.
哦，谢谢。
Oh, thanks.
真好。
That's nice.
就像乌奈·埃梅里。
Like Unai Emery.
是的。
Yeah.
或者前狼队主教练胡利安·洛佩特吉。
Or the former wolves manager, Julian Lopetegui.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，世界上有很多巴斯克人。
I mean, there's loads of Basques in the world.
是的。
Yeah.
巴斯克人无处不在。
They're everywhere, the Basques.
太棒了。
Wonderful.
她的母亲在大约15岁时遇见了杜阿尔特，并为他生了四个孩子。
Her mother had met Duarte when she was probably about 15 and bore him four children.
我认为，可以说，这并不是本系列中最后一次出现年龄差距惊人的关系。
This is not unfortunate the last time in this series that there will be relationships with an alarmingly large age gap, I think it's fair to say.
现在杜阿尔特实际上已经结婚，并在别处有了家庭。
Now Duarte is actually married and has a family elsewhere.
他来到这个小镇，洛斯托洛斯，担任农场管理员。
He comes to this town, Los Tolos, to work as a sort of farm manager.
而在那个时代的阿根廷，这非常普遍，他实际上有第二段婚姻。
And as is very common in Argentina in those days, he basically has a second marriage.
因为他离他的第一任妻子很远。
Because he's a long way from his first wife.
他离他的第一任妻子很远。
He's a long way from his first.
起初，这种关系通常是与一位原住民女性、土著女性建立的。
And at first, the norm was this would be with an indigenous woman, a native woman.
但随着时间的推移，这种情况逐渐发生了变化。
But over time, it kind of evolves.
所以他有了胡安娜。
So he has Juana.
有趣的是，她显然是一位非常骄傲、有抱负且固执的女性。
Interestingly, she's clearly a very proud, ambitious, and stubborn woman.
嗯，这应该是她的巴斯克血统，多米尼克。
Well, that will be her Basque heritage, Dominic.
当然了。
It would, of course.
巴斯克人是非常骄傲的民族。
They're very proud people, the Basques.
他们是一个骄傲的民族。
They are a proud people.
骄傲而独立。
Proud and independent.
是的。
Yes.
她采用了丈夫的姓氏，这并不寻常。
She takes his name, which is unusual.
她自称杜阿尔特。
She calls herself Duarte.
村子里的人不喜欢她。
People in the village don't like her.
不清楚他们是因为觉得她跟一个大人物有染而嫉妒她，还是因为她这么做而鄙视她。
It's not clear whether they think, you know, she's she's sleeping with a big man, so they envy her or whether they despise her for doing this.
也许两者都有。
Maybe a bit of both.
她有点向上流动，不是吗？
She's kind of upwardly mobile, isn't she?
而且还带着一点势利。
And with more than a hint of snobbery.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，她一方面瞧不起那些本该瞧不起她的人，另一方面这里除了斗鸡什么别的事都做不了，这简直是个噩梦，不是吗？
And so the fact that she's simultaneously looking down on people who have reason to look down on her and there's nothing to do except cockfighting, I mean, it's an absolute nightmare, isn't it?
确实是。
It is.
我的意思是，人们终究会抱怨她。
I mean, essentially, people are going to bitch about her.
确实如此。
They are indeed.
他们确实这么做了。
And they do.
是的。
Yes.
现在，艾娃的出生证明会在后续某一集中再提及，涉及出生证明这个非常复杂的问题。
Now Ava's birth certificate will come a little bit later in a subsequent episode to the very complicated issue of the birth certificate.
很明显，她的出生证明后来被销毁了，原因我们稍后会解释。
What it seems pretty clear is that her birth certificate was later destroyed for reasons that we will explain.
但当时看过的人说，她的姓氏并没有写她父亲的姓氏杜阿尔特，而是写了她母亲的姓氏伊巴尔加伦。
But at the time, people who saw it said that her surname was not given as Duarte, her father's surname, but as her mother's surname, Ibargaren.
村里因此流传着很多闲言碎语。
And there was a lot of gossip in the village.
他们两人因此发生了激烈的争吵，这就是伊娃出生登记被严重推迟的原因。
There had been a massive row about this between the two of them, which is why there'd been a big delay in registering Eva's birth.
她是第四个孩子。
She's the fourth child.
她有两个姐姐和一个哥哥，胡安。
She's got two elder sisters and one elder brother, Juan.
很明显，孩子们和母亲坚持继续使用胡安·杜阿尔特的姓氏。
And what is clear is that the children and the mother insisted that they would continue using Juan Duarte's name
尽管
even though
他并不希望他们这么做，而且他们也没有法律上的权利这么做。
he didn't want them to, and they weren't kinda legally entitled to.
所以从一开始，就有一种污点，我想。
So right from the start, there's a sort of a taint, I suppose.
她的父母并未结婚，但她却使用了一个不属于自己的姓氏。
Her parents are unmarried, but then she's using a name that is not her own.
但同时也有一种向上流动、追求进步、渴望超越出身环境的感觉。
But also a sense of of moving up, of aspiring, of wanting something better than than what you were born into.
没错。
Exactly.
是的。
Yeah.
而且我认为，还有一种怨恨和屈辱感，因为当埃娃还不到一岁时，杜阿尔特就说：‘我已经受够了在这座卑微小镇上工作。’
There's also, I think, a sense of resentment and humiliation because when Eva is not even one, Duarte says, I've had enough of my time working in this pathetic little town.
我要回到我真正的家人身边。
I'm actually going back to my real family.
于是他回到了自己真正的家人那里，那是在一个叫奇瓦尔波伊的地方。
And back he goes to his real family, which is in a place called Chivalpoy.
那个家庭是中产阶级吗，多米尼克？
And is that family middle class, Dominic?
如果他是个农场经理，那绝算不上精英，但肯定比伊巴尔盖林家更接近中产阶级。
If he's a farm manager, it's not elite by any stretch of the imagination, but it's certainly more middle class than the Ibarguerin family.
因此，这激发了伊娃哭泣，去他的中产阶级。
And so it would inspire Evita to cry, screw the middle classes.
我永远不会接受他们。
I will never accept them.
我父亲的另一个家庭是中产阶级，我们在他葬礼上被藏起来，不被看见。
My father's other family were middle class, and we were kept out of sight, hidden from view at his funeral.
所以这是音乐剧中一段动人的演绎。
So that's a moving rendition from the musical.
如果你一直重复音乐剧里的内容，会让人厌烦的。
If you're going to consistently recite things musical, it will become tiresome.
我这是代表观众说话。
I'm speaking for the audience.
不。
No.
但那确实是一个重要的方面，不是吗？
But that is an important aspect, isn't it?
他去世的事实。
The fact that he dies.
是的。
Yeah.
按照惯例，他们不应该被允许参加葬礼。
And by custom, they should not be allowed to go to the funeral.
尽管我认为唱太多确实会是编辑上的失误。
Although I do think it would be an editorial error to sing too much.
我觉得你提到这一点是对的。
I think you are right to mention it.
非常感谢。
Thank you very much.
向蒂姆·莱斯表示赞赏，他总结得非常好。
And kudos to Tim Rice for summing it up so well.
干得好，蒂姆·莱斯。
Well done, Tim Rice.
因为我认为这可能是她生命头十到十五年里发生的最具影响力的事情。
Because I think this is probably the single most influential thing that ever happened to her in the first ten, fifteen years of her life.
当她大约六岁时，父亲在一场车祸中去世。
When she's about six, her father is killed in a car crash.
她的母亲胡安娜说：我会去参加葬礼。
And Juana, her mother, says, I will go to the funeral.
我们都会去。
We will all go.
现在她给孩子们穿上丧服。
Now she dresses the children in mourning.
他们全都去了奇瓦尔科伊。
They all go to Chivalcoy.
守灵正在进行，所有人都惊呆了
The wake is in progress, and everybody is absolutely horrified
看到他们。
to see them.
展开剩余字幕（还有 417 条）
当然。
Of course.
并不是他们不知道他们的存在。
It's not that they don't know they exist.
我认为他们知道他们存在，但他们就是不希望这个所谓的第二家庭出现。
I think they know they exist, but they just they do not want this basically second family turning up.
宴席上的幽灵。
Specters at the feast.
是的。
Yeah.
后来争论很多，最终达成妥协：灵车直接前往墓地，他们可以步行，但必须跟在最后，不能和真正的家人在一起，明白吗？
And there's a lot of arguing, and eventually, the compromise is made that the hearse will proceed to the graveyard, and they can walk but right at the back, not with the real family in a verdict, comma.
你知道，这会成为一场闹剧。
You know, there'll be a spectacle.
他们会当众受辱。
They will be publicly humiliated.
我的意思是，每个人都被这场面羞辱了。
I mean, everybody's humiliated by this scene.
这提醒了我们阿根廷乡村社会的等级特性。
It's a reminder of the kind of the hierarchical character of Argentine rural society.
没错。
Right.
确实如此。
It is.
所以艾娃那时一定知道，六岁了，足够记得这件事，而且这件事对你产生了影响，至少让你意识到有人憎恨你，也憎恨你的母亲。
So Ava must know at that point, six, you're old enough to remember this, and for this to have an impact on you to be aware at the very least that there are people who despise you and who despise your mother.
很明显，在她余生中，艾娃和她的姐妹们因为自己的出身和背景而深感受伤。
And it is clear that for the rest of her life, Ava, like her sisters, had a tremendous sense of hurt because of her parentage and because of her background.
所以她从不承认，也从不谈论这件事。
So she never ever admitted it or talked about it.
她只会用一些隐晦的言辞来表达她对不公的愤怒。
She would just make these sort of coded references to her outrage against injustice.
据我所记得，不公正的存在一直伤害着我的灵魂，就像一根钉子不断钉入其中。
From as far as I can remember, the existence of injustice has hurt my soul as if a nail was being driven into it.
从我生命的每一个阶段，我都保留着某些不公正折磨我、撕裂我的记忆。
From every period of my life, I retain the memory of some injustice tormenting me and tearing me apart.
我认为这无疑是一切的核心所在。
And I think this undoubtedly lies at the heart of it all.
所以他们还是回到了洛斯托洛斯。
So they go back to Los Tolos anyway.
她是个非常瘦小的女孩。
She is a very skinny, small little girl.
他们叫她‘瘦子’，也就是‘瘦姑娘’。
They call her skinny la flaca, the thin one.
当她大约十岁或十一岁时，他们最终搬到了一个叫乌宁的稍大一点的地方，那是一个铁路枢纽。
They end up moving eventually when she's about 10, 11, to a slightly bigger place called Hunin, which is a kind of railway junction.
据称，多米尼克，这个词源自克丘亚语中‘飞机’的意思。
It apparently, Dominic, derives from the Quecher word for planes.
哦，那真好。
Oh, that's nice.
所以那里挺平坦的，对吧？
So it's kind of flat, isn't it?
没什么可做的。
Not a lot to do.
尘土飞扬，有点破旧，道路未铺装。
Dusty, sort of scruffy, unpaved roads.
这就像西部荒野。
It's wild west.
是的。
Yeah.
有点像西部荒野。
A little bit wild west.
她去胡宁上学。
She goes to school in Hunin.
一位老师后来记得她，说她是个非常漂亮的女孩，有着乌黑的头发、如瓷器般细腻的皮肤，是个极度自我沉浸、内心世界丰富、敏感而脆弱的孩子。
One of the teachers remembers her later and says a very beautiful little girl with dark hair, skin like porcelain, a very self absorbed child with an intense inner life, great sensitivity and great vulnerability.
当然，对于这类回忆，你永远无法确定其中有多少是事后投射，对吧？
Of course, you never know with this how much this is back projection, do you?
我的意思是，也许那位老师根本就一点也不记得了。
I mean, maybe that teacher doesn't even remember at all.
看起来，他们——你知道的，没有丈夫，也没有父亲。
It seems that they, again, were you know, there's no husband, no father.
他们头上似乎笼罩着一丝阴云。
There's a slight sort of cloud hanging over them.
有些女孩被告知不要和自称杜阿尔特的人说话。
Some girls are told you don't talk to their Duartes as they're calling themselves.
所以这位母亲自称是杜阿尔特寡妇。
So the mother is calling herself the widow Duarte.
没错。
Exactly.
她仍然非常热衷于维持体面的形象。
And she's still very keen on kind of projecting respectability.
她抚养女儿们和儿子胡安，让他们自视为体面的人。
And she's raising her girls and her son, Juan, to think of themselves as respectable.
是的。
Yeah.
但显然，如果没有钱，你该如何维持这种表象呢？
But there's the challenge, obviously, of how do you maintain that facade if you don't actually have any money?
没错。
No.
他们确实没有。
Which they don't.
所以这位母亲，她经常缝纫，对吧？
So the mother, she sews a lot, doesn't she?
而缝纫机后来将成为伊娃蒂的重要象征。
And sewing the machines will become a kind of important icon for Evita later on.
是的。
Yeah.
她还收留房客。
And she takes in lodgers.
她收留房客，还为他们做饭。
She takes in lodgers, and she cooks for them.
这为后来反贝隆的宣传者提供了大量素材。
And this will provide a lot of scope for anti Evita propagandists later on.
是的。
Yeah.
因为这个故事——我们之前提到过的伟大作家豪尔赫·路易斯·博尔赫斯也说过——
Because the story and it's one that Jorge Luis Borges, the great writer who we've already mentioned
嗯。
Mhmm.
他说她经营着一家妓院，并且在拉皮条。
He says that she was running a brothel and that she was pimping out the girls.
我的意思是，这根本完全不真实，对吧？
I mean, this is simply not true at all, is it?
不对。
No.
这不真实。
It's not true.
这完全没有任何依据。
There is no foundation for that whatsoever.
恰恰相反。
It's the opposite.
我的意思是，剧透一下。
I mean, spoiler.
我认为伊娃·佩隆从未当过妓女。
Eva Perron, I think, was never a prostitute.
我不认为人们经常说她当过妓女，但我认为她没有。
I don't think it's often claimed that she was, but I don't think she was.
我认为它们实际上恰恰相反，正如你所说的那样。
I think they are actually quite the opposite as you say.
我认为他们痴迷于体面。
I think they are obsessed with respectability.
是的。
Yeah.
这是一种永远可望而不可即的东西，他们渴望得到它。
It is something that is always out of reach and they're desperate to reach it.
我认为，艾娃在成长过程中，像很多人一样，最常思考的问题是：我们在哪里？
The thing that I think Ava thinks about more than anything when she's growing up, like a lot of people is, where are we?
我们生活在1930年代。
We are in the 1930s.
这是电影的时代。
This is the age of the cinema.
所以，胡宁有一家电影院，实际上有好几家电影院。
So there's a cinema, there are multiple cinemas actually in Hunin.
尼古拉斯·弗雷泽和玛丽莎·纳瓦罗所著的伊娃·佩隆传记中提到，他们每周都会去看这些电影，电影中展现的是欧洲或北美生活方式的图像，描绘了财富与权力，宏伟闪亮的城市景象，最重要的是，爱情。
The great biography of Eva Peron by Nicolas Fraser and Marisa Navarro, she says, every week they go and see these films, and on the films are images of a European or North American life, depictions of wealth and power, visions of great and glittering cities, and most of all, of love.
跨越阶级的爱情，爱情与金钱，爱情与皮草，爱情与命运。
Love across class barriers, love and money, love and furs, love and destiny.
是的。
Yeah.
到这个时候，主要是美国电影。
It is, by this point, chiefly American films.
是的。
Yeah.
因为阿根廷电影产业基本上被私酒贩子的兴起摧毁了，而美国人还实施了对胶片销售的禁令。
Because the Argentine film industry has basically been decimated by the rise of speakeas, and the Americans have kind of imposed a ban on the the sale of cine film.
此外，虽然阿根廷电影史学家可能会对这一点提出异议，但我认为在20世纪30年代，阿根廷电影实际上并不怎么样。
Well, also, think the Argentine film industry, those people who are sort of historians of Argentine cinema may object to this, but I think there's a sense that in the nineteen thirties, actually, not very good.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，到这个时候它已经衰退了。
I mean, it's in decline at this point.
现在，艾娃就像很多女孩一样。
Now Ava is like a lot of girls.
她热爱电影。
She loves the cinema.
她喜欢音乐和舞蹈。
She loves music and dancing.
她梦想着演艺事业的生活。
She dreams of a life in show business.
最终，当她15岁时，她说服了母亲，让她搬到布宜诺斯艾利斯，在这个世界上追求自己的命运。
And, ultimately, when she's 15 years old, she persuades her mother to let her move to Buenos Aires to seek her fortune in this world.
因为你提到了她对舞蹈的热爱，当然，著名的阿根廷舞蹈是探戈。
Because you mentioned her love of dancing, and, of course, the famous Argentine dancer is the tango.
是的。
Yeah.
据说带她去布宜诺斯艾利斯的不是她母亲，而是一位探戈歌手。
And the story is that it's not her mother who takes her to Buenos Aires, but a tango singer.
对吧？
Isn't that right?
是的。
Yes.
奥古斯丁·马加尔迪，他实际上是阿根廷最著名的探戈歌手之一。
Agustin Magaldi, who was actually one of the biggest tango singers in in Argentina.
也就是吉米·奈尔。
AKA Jimmy Nail.
当然。
Of course.
电影里演的是吉米·奈尔。
It's Jimmy Nail in the film.
电影里演的是吉米·奈尔。
It's Jimmy Nail in the film.
是的。
Yeah.
所以实际上，马加尔迪长得一点也不像吉米·奈尔。
So Magaldi looked nothing like Jimmy Nail in reality.
不。
No.
他确实不像。
He didn't.
但他也不是那种典型的探戈歌手，对吧？
But, also, he's not a kind of classic tango singer, is he?
因为他更关注社会问题。
Because he's much more concerned with social issues.
他非常热衷于社会正义。
He's very passionate about social justice.
我一直好奇，这个故事是否源于他的歌曲主题与艾娃后来的关注点有某种契合。
And I always wondered whether this story emerges because the themes of his songs are seen to kind of map onto Ava's later concerns.
我不知道你怎么看这一点。
I don't know what you think about that.
不。
No.
我觉得这是个合理的观点，因为他的音乐和歌词呼应了她言辞中的主题。
I think that's a fair point because his music, his lyrics echo the themes of her rhetoric.
是的。
Yeah.
所以你会经常看到这种情况。
So you'll see this a lot.
这在音乐剧中绝对是种现象，安德鲁·劳埃德·韦伯的音乐剧，蒂莫里兹音乐剧。
It's definitely a thing in the musical, at the Andrew Lloyd Webber music, Timorized musical.
有一个故事说，奥古斯丁·马加尔迪去朱利安那里表演。
There's a story that Agustin Magaldi came to Julian to perform.
他大受欢迎，然后带她回到布宜诺斯艾利斯，实际上成了他的情妇。
He's a great hit, and then he takes her back with him to Buenos Aires effectively as his mistress.
但她的传记作者说这纯属胡扯。
But her biographers say this is rubbish.
首先，实际上根本没有证据表明他曾经去过胡宁。
First of all, there's actually no evidence he ever came to Hunin at all.
但此外，你知道，他是带着妻子一起旅行的。
But also, you know, he travels with his wife.
他的妻子会随他巡演。
His wife comes on tour.
他妻子不太可能同意他和这个非常瘦弱的姑娘在一起。
It is highly implausible that his wife would approve of him with this very skinny Yeah.
而且她本身也不是什么年轻貌美的性感尤物，怎么可能默默微笑地看着他把她带回首都呢？
And she's not exactly a bombshell young Ava, that his wife would smile meekly while he brings her back with them to the capital.
我觉得这非常不可能。
I think that's very unlikely.
是的。
Yeah.
这实际上明显表达了一种怀疑，即你已经说过，她的家人都是妓女，她之所以能晋升全靠自己的性魅力，但我认为这完全不对。
What it actually obviously expresses is one, that suspicion that you've already said that basically the family are all prostitutes, and that she only advances because of her sexuality, which I don't think is right at all.
其次，我完全同意你的观点。
And secondly, I totally agree with you.
不知为何，她的生活和事业似乎与探戈紧密相连，而探戈是二十世纪初人们所熟知的阿根廷文化的唯一代表。
The sense in some mysterious way, her life and career must be bound up with the tango, which is the one thing that people know about Argentine culture in the early twentieth century.
探戈当然诞生于布宜诺斯艾利斯港口的妓院，后来逐渐变得体面，传到巴黎，如此等等。
Tango, of course, is born in brothels in the port of Buenos Aires, then it becomes a bit more respectable, goes to Paris, and so on.
探戈是忧郁的。
The tango is melancholy.
它的主题通常是爱情、痛苦与牺牲。
Its themes are kind of generally love and suffering and sacrifice.
正如我们将会看到的，这些也正是伊娃·庇隆政治的核心主题。
And actually, as we will see, those are the themes of Eva Peron's politics.
这些都是她反复强调的修辞主题。
They are rhetorical themes that she goes on about.
是的。
Yeah.
所以她无疑深受探戈世界的影响。
So she's undoubtedly steeped in the world of the tango.
我的意思是，这种音乐一直在播放。
I mean, that music is playing all the time.
我的意思是，这是布宜诺斯艾利斯的声音，而电影的世界也是像布宜诺斯艾利斯这样的大都市的世界。
I mean, is the sound of Buenos Aires, and the realm of film is also that of great cities like Buenos Aires.
所以，显然，如果你是一个不想被困在小地方的女孩，梦想着璀璨的霓虹灯，而你又身处阿根廷中部，那么布宜诺斯艾利斯是你唯一的选择。
So, obviously, if you are the kind of girl who doesn't want to be stuck in Hicksville, who dreams of the bright lights, and you are in the middle of Argentina, Buenos Aires is the only place to go.
所以我认为我们这时候该休息一下了。
So I think we should take a break at this point.
当我们回来时，我们将跟随埃娃前往大苹果（纽约）。
And when we come back, we will follow Ava to the Big Apple.
非常好。
Very good.
你好。
Hello.
我是汉娜·弗莱教授。
I'm professor Hannah Fry.
我是迈克尔·史蒂文斯，Vsauce的创作者。
And I'm Michael Stevens, creator of Vsauce.
我们未经邀请就来打扰一下。
We thought we would join you for a moment completely uninvited.
我们不是
We are not
会待太久。
gonna stay too long.
我的意思是，当然，除非你希望我们留下。
I mean, unless you want us to, of course.
我们来是想向你们介绍我们全新的节目《其余皆科学》。
We're here to tell you about our brand new show, the rest is science.
每一集都会从一件看似熟悉的事情开始，然后我们将逐步剖析、拆解，直到你再也认不出它原本的样子。
Every episode is gonna start with something that feels initially familiar, and then we're gonna unpick it and tear it apart until you no longer recognize it at all.
你知道香蕉味为什么尝起来不像真正的香蕉吗？
You know how banana flavor doesn't taste like bananas?
嗯。
Yeah.
这是怎么回事？
What is that about?
因为这种味道原本是模仿一种在香蕉大灭绝中灭绝的古老香蕉品种。
So it is supposed to taste like an old species of banana that was wiped out in a banana apocalypse.
而现在，你只能在植物园里找到它，这些植物园属于
And now you will only find it in botanical collections in
亿万富翁的私人花园。
the gardens of billionaires.
哇。
Wow.
香蕉糖实际上是早已灭绝的香蕉的幽灵。
Banana candy is actually the ghost of a long extinct banana.
所以，如果你喜欢拨开表象，深入思考，或者想得更怪异一点。
So if you like scratching the surface, thinking a little bit deeper Or weirder.
是的。
Yes.
当然也是这样。
Definitely that too.
你可以在每周二和周四，通过你收听播客的任何平台，收听迈克尔和我的节目。
You can join Michael and I every Tuesday and Thursday wherever you get your podcasts.
有什么新鲜事？
What's new?
布宜诺斯艾利斯，正如伊娃在著名的歌曲中唱到的那样，当她抵达这座伟大的阿根廷首都街头时。
Buenos Aires, as Evita famously sang when arriving in the streets of the great Argentine capital city.
多米尼克，她才15岁。
And Dominic, she's 15.
嗯。
Yep.
她身无分文。
She has no money.
她没有受过特别的教育，也没有特别的才能。
She has no particular education or aptitudes.
一个没有任何特殊技能的人来到这座大城市，生活会是什么样子？
What is life like for someone with no particular skills turning up in this massive city?
令人不知所措，汤姆。
Overwhelming, Tom.
实际上，令人恐惧。
Terrifying, actually.
因此，埃娃是众多从阿根廷内陆来到布宜诺斯艾利斯、离开土地进入城市的人之一。
So Eva is one of many, many people who are at this point arriving in Buenos Aires from the interior of Argentina and moving off the land and into the city.
因此，十九世纪的布宜诺斯艾利斯曾经是个很小的地方。
So Buenos Aires in the nineteenth century have been quite a small place.
它已经大幅扩张了。
It has expanded massively.
这是一个移民城市。
It's a city of immigrants.
因此，其人口约为两百五十万，并正向三百万攀升，充满了在过去几十年里横跨大西洋而来的意大利人和巴斯克人。
So its population is about two and a half million, rising towards 3,000,000, full of Italians and Basques who have come across the Atlantic in the last couple of decades.
我想，对于美国和加拿大听众来说，可以把它想象成纽约和芝加哥的结合体。
I guess a way to think about it, especially for American and Canadian listeners, it's basically a combination of New York and Chicago.
所以它是个肉类加工业中心。
So it's Meatpacking.
我知道你很喜欢肉类加工业，汤姆。
I know you love meatpacking, Tom.
还有私酒吧。
And speakeasies.
是的。
Yeah.
两件你非常在意的事情。
Two things very close to your heart.
它是铁路网络的中心，因此到处都是火车和车站。
It's the center of the railway network, so it's full of trains and stations.
这里到处都是屠宰场。
It's full of kind of abattoirs.
肉就是在这里冷冻的。
This is where they freeze the meat.
阿根廷的财富正是来源于这种肉类，他们将它运往大西洋彼岸。
This is the meat on which Argentina has got rich, and they send it across the Atlantic.
这里到处都是银行。
It's full of banks.
有一家证券交易所。
There's a stock exchange.
还有歌剧院，全部建于十九世纪末巴黎风格的欧洲贵族式建筑中。
There are opera houses, all built in a kind of European baron houseman, late nineteenth century Parisian style.
因此，在某些方面，它看起来像是巴黎的一个平行宇宙版本，这里的精英们仿佛置身于伦敦的邦德街。
So it looks like, in some ways, a sort of alternative universe version of Paris in which the elite behave as though they're on Bond Street in London.
当然，大多数人并不属于这个精英阶层。
Now, obviously, most people are not part of that elite.
因此，这里有一个庞大的工人阶级，主要是移民。
So there's a huge working class, largely immigrant.
在世纪之交，意大利人和巴斯克人来到了这里。
The Italians and the Basques came at the turn of the century.
现在，像埃娃这样来自内陆的许多人，在布宜诺斯艾利斯郊区的工厂和商店工作，他们常常生活在极其贫困、拥挤、不卫生的环境中。
Now there are lots of people like Evita coming from the interior, and they are working in factories and shops on this kind of outskirts of Buenos Aires, and they're often living in very, very poor, cramped, insalubrious conditions.
这就是她的成长环境。
So that is her milieu.
在接下来的几年里，她会四处漂泊，住在这些所谓的旅舍、寄宿屋或廉价公寓里——这些地方拥挤、凄惨，对一个十几岁的女孩来说，恐怕既可怕又令人不安。
She will be spending the next few years drifting around these kind of pensiones, these, like, you know, boarding houses, lodging houses, you know, crowded, miserable, probably frightening, frankly, for a girl in her teens.
但与此同时，也有些令人兴奋。
But at the same time, kind of exciting.
哦，完全没错。
Oh, totally.
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Definitely.
而且她也摆脱了母亲的控制性影响，没错。
And she has got away from the controlling presence of her mother as well Yeah.
这一定也是一个因素，因为如果你像艾娃那样独立自主的话。
Which must also I mean, if you're independently minded, which Ava clearly is, that must also be a factor.
你不觉得这一定让她更有决心留在城里，不放弃，不回去吗？
Don't you think it must have steeled her to continue to remain in the city, to not kind of give up, to not go back?
是的。
Yeah.
但大多数人还是会回去的。
Most people would go back, though.
正如我们的传记作者所说，每个人都梦想着在大城市生活，投身演艺事业，站在舞台上，出现在镜头前。
So as our biographers say, everybody dreams of a life in the big city and life in showbiz and being on the stage and being in front of a camera.
但你除外，多米尼克，公平地说。
Except for you, Dominic, to be fair.
好吧，也许我也有我的梦想，汤姆。
Well, maybe I have my dreams too, Tom.
你知道的。
You know?
我仍然梦想着那小小的，你
I still dream of that little, you
知道的，好莱坞经纪人联系上我。
know, the Hollywood agent getting in touch.
是的。
Yeah.
我想是吧。
I suppose.
是的。
Yeah.
你的欧洲歌唱大赛对我而言并非完全遥不可及。
Your Eurovision is not closed off to me entirely.
所以，是的，大多数人梦想着那样，却最终在小镇上安顿下来。
So, yeah, most people dream of that, but settle down in their little town.
她身上有种东西。
There's something in her.
那种动力。
The drive.
毫无疑问有一种动力，因为关于那段时期没有任何资料。
There is undoubtedly a drive because there are no sources about this time.
我们没有直接证据，但她的生活本身或许就是证据。
We don't have evidence for it, but the evidence is her life, I guess.
我认为她在布宜诺斯艾利斯看到的是另一种生活的可能。
I think what she sees in Buenos Aires is the possibility of another life.
所以我提到了精英阶层。
So I mentioned the elite.
即使按照欧洲标准，这些精英也富有得不可思议。
The elite are impossibly rich even by European standards.
有一个惊人的统计数据：在1930年，阿根廷前2000名最富有的人拥有的土地面积相当于荷兰、比利时和瑞士三国的总和。
So there's an amazing statistic that in 1930, the top 2,000 people in Argentina owned land that was the equivalent to Holland, Belgium, and Switzerland put together.
我不明白你为什么把这三个国家放在一起，但无论如何，这正是这些精英所拥有的土地规模。
I don't know why you put those three countries together, but, anyway, that's the equivalent of the land holdings of this elite.
这些人在十九世纪赚到了钱。
And these are people who made the money in the nineteenth century.
他们是老牌家族。
They're the old families.
他们过着英国乡绅和乡绅夫人的生活。
They live like English country gentlemen and and ladies.
他们打马球。
They play polo.
他们打槌球。
They play croquet.
他们在哈罗德百货购物，这家百货公司在布宜诺斯艾利斯设有分店。
They shop at Harrods, which has a branch in Buenos Aires.
他们去歌剧院，即科隆剧院。
They go to the opera house, the Theatre of Colom.
他们去骑术俱乐部，那是绅士俱乐部。
They go to the jockey club, which is the gentleman's club.
是的。
Yeah.
富人聚集的场所。
The watering holes of the well-to-do.
在阿根廷的冬季——也就是我们的夏季——他们会去欧洲，到蔚蓝海岸，到意大利湖泊避暑，去英国看赛马。
And in the Argentine winter, which is our summer, they would go to Europe, to the Cote D'Azur, to summer on the Italian lakes, to go to the races in England.
人们会说，天哪。
And people would say, oh my god.
阿根廷人非常富有。
Argentines are so rich.
他们不是乡下土包子。
They're not country cousins.
我想他们是新贵。
They're nouveau riche, I suppose.
所以在巴黎，当时有一种说法，叫‘富得像阿根廷人’。
So in Paris, there's an expression at the time to be as rich as an Argentine.
我想，她仰慕的就是这样的人。
So these are the people that she is looking up to, I think.
不过，她其实并不仰慕他们，是吧？
Well, she's not looking up to them though, is she?
她鄙视他们。
She despises them.
但她恰恰是因为仰慕他们才憎恨他们，这难道不是吗？
She hates them precisely because she is looking up to them, though, surely.
这就是她讨厌他们的原因，因为他们处于顶端
That's why she hates them, because they are at the top of
那个金字塔的顶端。
that pyramid.
是的。
Yeah.
但仰慕他们意味着他们为她提供了标准。
But looking up to them implies that they provide her with the standard.
不。
No.
你说得对。
You're right.
她想取代他们。
She wants to displace them.
她确实想取代他们。
She absolutely does.
是的。
Yeah.
但我要说的是，到这个时候，她根本没有任何政治意识，对吧？
But, I mean, important to say that at this point, she's not politically minded at all, is she?
不。
No.
完全没有任何。
Not at all.
她对社会问题根本没有兴趣，完全专注于成为一名演员。
She has no real interest in kind of social issues, and she's entirely focused on making her way as an actress.
没错。
She is.
而且一开始，她演技并不好，这也是问题的一部分。
And to begin with, I mean, she's not a very good actress is part of the problem.
不。
No.
她最早的角色，即使是在舞台上，也是属于底层阶级的。
And her earliest roles, even on stage, she's part of the lower classes.
她总是扮演女仆或秘书，而不是女王之类的人物。
She's always playing maids or secretaries rather than queens or anything.
是的。
She is.
她出演的都是些糟糕的剧目，只上演两周就再无人提及。
She's in terrible plays that run for two weeks and are never heard of again.
我们只能看到她生活的零星片段。
And we only get, like, fragmentary glimpses of her life.
所以她在一部关于女子学校的剧中出演，有人评价说：年轻、非常漂亮、黑眼睛，纯真的化身。
So she's in a play about a girl's school, and somebody says, young, very pretty, dark eyes, the personification of innocence.
她显得非常纯洁。
She seems very pure.
当然，这是她当时的人设，因为她才十五六岁。
That's her persona at this point, of course, because she's 15, 16.
是的。
Yeah.
我们还看到过她的一点片段。
There's also a glimpse we have of her.
她曾去乌拉圭首都蒙得维的亚的海边找朋友玩。
She goes to some friends at some point to the beach in Montevideo Montevideo, the capital of Uruguay.
那里有一些上层阶级的男孩在海滩上看到了她。
And there are boys who see her on the beach, upper class boys.
其中一人后来说：我记得她。
And one of them said later, I remember her.
她看起来既不愚蠢也不聪明，非常普通，而且有点低阶层。
She seemed neither stupid nor intelligent, perfectly unremarkable, and rather lower class.
这种‘有点低阶层’的感觉，就是她的基调。
And that rather lower class, that's the tone.
所以她就是跟那个听起来很阴险的家伙巴勃罗·苏埃罗，也就是‘蟾蜍’，一起去的那里吗？
So is that the place that she's gone with this rather sinister sounding guy Pablo Suero, aka the toad?
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yeah.
据说她和他睡在一起。
And it's said of him that she is sleeping with him.
她很可能确实和他睡过。
Which she probably was.
因为我们已经说过，她不是妓女。
Because we've said that she's not a prostitute.
对。
Yeah.
但任何听者都会想，你知道，一个有魅力的年轻女孩，想在一个极其充满掠夺性且男性主导的世界里闯出一片天地。
But anyone listening and thinking, you know, attractive young girl wanting to make her way as an actress in a very, very predatory and masculine dominated world.
我的意思是，那些掌握权力的导演不太可能不利用他们的控制权。
I mean, it seems improbable that the directors with the power would not have leveraged their control.
当然。
Of course.
而且我认为，即使是最富有同情心的传记作者也不会怀疑，在当今#MeToo时代，我们无疑会认为这种行为令人反感。
And I don't think even the most sympathetic biographer would doubt that in a way that we undoubtedly would find repellent now in the kind of Me Too era.
嗯，因为有一个著名的说法
Well, because there's this famous kind
所以苏ero和埃维塔分手后，嗯。
of so after Suero and Evita split up Mhmm.
她去求他再给一个角色。
She goes to ask him for another part.
没错。
That's right.
他让她在办公室外面等了几个小时。
And he keeps her sitting outside, you know, the office for hours and hours.
然后他突然冲出办公室，对她大喊：你是不是以为，因为我跟你睡过，我就有义务一直给你工作？
And then he kind of bounds out of the office and yells at her, do you think that because I slept with you, I'm always obliged to give you work?
在所有其他女演员面前公开地。
Very publicly in front of all the other actresses.
是的。
Yes.
那里有很多其他女演员。
There are loads of other actresses there.
目睹这一幕的人说，她的声音越来越小。
And the person who sees it says her voice became softer and softer.
她因羞辱而变得越来越苍白。
She became whiter and whiter with humiliation again.
一场可怕的场景。
A terrible scene.
即使这一件事没有发生，也一定发生过许多类似的事情。
And even if that one incident didn't happen, there must have been many such incidents.
是的。
Yeah.
因此你可以理解，为什么随着时间推移，她会希望彻底抹去自己作为女演员的职业记录以及出身背景。
And you can see why in due course, she will want to erase the record of her career as an actress as well as her origins completely from the record.
是的。
Yes.
当然。
Absolutely.
当然。
Absolutely.
这显然使得了解当时究竟发生了什么变得困难。
Which obviously then makes it difficult to know what was going on.
没错。
Exactly.
我想我们还是能大致了解当时的情况，因为有人已经深入挖掘过相关的节目单和其他资料。
We do have a sense, I think, of what was going on because people have dug into the listings and things.
我们知道她曾在一个小型角色中出演过一部糟糕的广播科幻节目。
We know that she was in a terrible radio science fiction program in a tiny part.
我们知道她参加过选美比赛但输了，还担任过一种探戈比赛的主持人，并在一部关于拳击的电影中跑过龙套。
We know that she entered a beauty contest and lost it, that she was the emcee of a kind of tango competition, that she was an extra in a film about boxing.
我们知道她的名字出现在舞台节目单上。
And we know that she's she's listed in stage programs.
但你知道，她只是在合唱团里，或者没有台词，或者只有一句台词。
But, you know, she's in the chorus, or she has no lines, or she has one line.
她一定非常非常穷。
She must have been very, very poor.
我的意思不是说她是个差劲的演员。
I mean, I don't mean a poor actress.
我的意思是，她身无分文。
I mean, you know, no money.
她唯一的一个联系人是她的弟弟胡安，他也住在布宜诺斯艾利斯。
I mean, one point of contact that she does have is her brother Juan, who is in Buenos Aires as well.
没错。
Yep.
他这个人有点靠不住，对吧？
And he's kind of he's a slightly shady character, isn't he?
是的。
He is.
后来，他被指控严重腐败。
And later on, he will be accused of gross corruption.
我认为这并非完全不公平。
I think not entirely unfairly.
所以她确实有个哥哥，但这对她帮助甚微。
So she does have her brother, but that avails her very little.
她曾经合作过的一位女演员，一出戏的女主角，名叫皮埃丽娜·德亚历克西，曾稍微照顾过她，她后来说：我记得她。
One of the actresses who she worked with, the lead actress in a play, a woman called Pierina de Alessi, she took her under her wing a bit, she later said, I remember her.
她又饿又不开心，对自己毫不在意。
She was hungry, unhappy, careless about herself.
她的手又冷又出汗。
Her hands were cold and sweaty.
她会早早来到剧院，因为那里比她的房间暖和，而且她无处可去。
She would come to the theater early because it was warmer than her room, and she had nowhere else to go.
这是一幕令人心酸的场景，但你完全可以想象得到。
A sad scene, but one that you can completely imagine.
你知道吗？
You know?
这是一个非常普遍的故事。
Such a common story.
还有另一条记录，我想不起来是谁对她说：你为什么不改善一下你的发音呢？
And there's another record, I can't remember who it is, who is saying to her, why don't you improve your elocution?
因为她口音非常工薪阶层，带有浓厚的地方口音。
Because she has a very working class accent, very provincial accent.
她经常把很多词念错。
She mispronounces a lot of words.
朋友对她说：你为什么不试着提高一下说话能力，这样你就能拿到更好的角色呢？
And the friend is saying, why don't you, you know, try and improve your your ability to speak so that you will get better parts?
她只是说，我真的做不到。
And she kind of says, just I can't.
我真的没有精力去做。
I just haven't got the energy for it.
是啊。
Yeah.
她总是饿，总是累。
She's always hungry, always tired.
是啊。
Yeah.
她太累了，太饿了，连做这件事都没力气。
She's too tired, too hungry even to do that.
而且，说实话，汤姆，她其实并不怎么好。
And actually, also, Tom, let us be honest, she's not actually very good.
她不是个出色的演员。
She's not a great actress.
她并不美得惊为天人。
She's not stunningly beautiful.
不过，
Although,
她的表演风格实际上在广播中非常有效。
her style of acting actually turns out to be quite effective on the radio.
是的。
Yes.
这确实是她走红的关键，对吧？
And this is really the making of her, isn't it?
完全没错。
It is completely.
你说得对。
You're absolutely right.
所以1939年的时候，她总是整天在经纪人和制作人办公室外面徘徊。
So in 1939, I mean, she would be hanging around all the time outside the offices of agents and producers and things.
她似乎加入了一个团队，他们计划制作一系列由剧作家赫克托·布洛姆贝格创作的戏剧。
And she seems to have got in with a group who were going to produce a whole series of plays by this playwright called Hector Blomberg.
她成功地获得了这个系列中一位主要角色的演出机会。
And she actually manages to land a role as one of the sort of the stars of this series.
她当时大约19岁，他们要做的第一部作品是一部发生在19世纪末、类似美好年代巴黎的爱情故事。
She's about 19, and the first thing they're gonna do is this love story in nineteenth century, late nineteenth century Belle Epoque kind of Paris.
这是她第一次真正获得公众关注，她即将成为一位小小的广播明星。
And it's the first time that she really gets any publicity, and she is going to become a bit of a radio star.
我认为，这在塑造她的过程中至关重要，不仅作为娱乐圈人物，而且作为政治人物。
Now, I think that this is absolutely central in the making of her, not just as a show business personality Yeah.
但作为一位政治人物也是如此。
But as a political personality.
阿根廷的广播绝非无足轻重。
Argentine radio is not nothing.
它是全球第二大商业广播网络，最大的是美国。
It's the second biggest commercial network in the world, so the biggest is The US.
在这个幅员辽阔的国家，你知道，它比任何欧洲国家都大得多，而且人口极其稀少，人们彼此相隔千里。
And in this vast country, you know, far bigger than any European country and incredibly under populated, so people are living gigantic distances from each other.
广播对人们有着近乎超自然的影响力。
The radio has this almost supernatural power over people.
尤其是肥皂剧，每天傍晚5点半播出，正值主妇们为回家的丈夫准备晚餐的时候。
And particularly, soap operas, are broadcast every evening at 05:30 to women preparing the dinner for their husbands to come home.
它们被称为肥皂剧，因为基本上是由肥皂制造商赞助的。
And they're called soap operas because, basically, they're sponsored by soap manufacturers.
是的。
Yes.
你刚才提到了里根。
And you mentioned Reagan earlier.
这其中有一种呼应。
I mean, there's an echo there.
里根基本上是通过推销冰箱来磨练他的政治能力的，不是吗？
Reagan kind of cuts his political teeth, doesn't he, by selling fridges, essentially.
是的。
Yeah.
通用电气。
General Electric.
从某种意义上说，艾娃能够有效扮演电台明星，也与推销商品有关。
And there's a sense in which Ava's ability to act effectively as a radio star is also about selling stuff.
我的意思是，她也在推销肥皂。
I mean, she's selling soap as well.
是的。
Yeah.
她
She
是的。
is.
因此，通过做这件事，她正在学习像里根那样传播信息。
And so that idea of broadcasting messages is something like Reagan that she is learning by doing this.
这是资本主义与表演的交集，我想。
It's the intersection of capitalism and acting, I guess.
没错。
It is.
当我们制作里根系列时，我记得我们经常谈论里根和好莱坞。
When we did the Reagan series, I remember we were talking a lot about Reagan and Hollywood.
我说过，我一直觉得，像路·坎农这样的里根伟大传记作者，人们说里根只是个演员，这简直荒谬。
And I said, I always thought, like Lou Cannon, Reagan's great biographer, that it's bonkers that people would say of Reagan, he's just an actor.
因为当演员是从事政治的绝佳准备。
Because being an actor is brilliant preparation for politics.
背台词、化装、站在正确的位置、会见粉丝，所有这些。
Saying the lines, wearing the makeup, standing in the right place, meeting the fans, all of that.
我认为在阿根廷，广播与政治也是如此。
And I think radio ditto with politics in Argentina.
在阿根廷，运作方式是这样的：由于这些偏远村庄里有很多穷人，收音机制造商就会派出卡车，带着扬声器前往这些村庄，为村民们播放肥皂剧。
So the way it would work in Argentina is because there are lots of people who are very poor in these far flung villages, the radio manufacturers would get trucks, and they would send them to these villages, and they would have loudspeakers, and they would play the soap operas to the people in the village.
而根据她的传记作者弗雷泽·纳瓦罗的说法，这些肥皂剧更像是一种剧本朗读，而非戏剧表演。
And the soap operas, as her biographers, Fraser Navarro say, the soap operas, they were more recitals of a script than they were dramas.
所以剧本往往是在播出前刚刚写好的。
So the script would have been written just beforehand.
整个剧情始终处于一种极度的情感高潮之中。
The entire thing is at an absolute kind of pitch of emotion.
是的。
Yeah.
几乎可以说是做作的。
Histrionic almost.
从头到尾都充满做作的表现。
Histrionic from the start to the end.
而且总是围绕着爱情展开，是的。
And it's always about love Yeah.
失望与牺牲。
Disappointment, sacrifice.
主角都是年轻女性，她们总是被背叛，或为丈夫或其他人牺牲自己。
The lead characters are young women who were always being betrayed or sacrificing themselves for their husbands or whatever.
但最终，她们会落入
But who, in the long run, finish up in
一位英俊潇洒的英雄的怀抱。
the arms of a handsome and dashing hero.
是的。
Yes.
而这些正是奥娃所扮演的角色。
And these are the roles that Ava is playing.
那个贫穷、受苦、忍耐，但最终能得到一个男人的女孩。
The girl who who is poor, who suffers, who endures, but who does in the long run get a man.
这实际上是她唯一扮演的角色。
And it's the only role really she ever plays.
我的意思是，这就是关键。
I mean, that's the thing.
这并不是她众多角色中的一个。
It's not like this is one role among many.
这就是她唯一能做的。
This is all she can do.
人们谈论过她的声音，我的意思是，我们在录音前不是刚聊过她的声音吗？
People said of her voice I mean, we were talking, weren't we, about her voice before we started recording?
她的声音极其单调，她只会用一种哀怨的方式表达责任、爱情、牺牲、 blah blah blah、殉道之类的情感。
Her voice is unbelievably monotonous, and all she can do is to sort of emote plaintively about duty, love, sacrifice, blah blah blah, martyrdom.
但她做得极其出色。
But she does it incredibly well.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，到1943年，她赚了不少钱，能够买下一处房产。
So that, what, by 1943, she's earning a fair amount of money, and she's able to buy a place.
我想她还帮了有赌博债务的胡安。
I think she also helps out Juan who's got gambling debts.
是的。
Yes.
所以，她开始获得一种前所未有的安全感。
So she's starting to get a degree of security in a way that she had never before in her life had.
而她正是通过扮演这样一个角色来实现的：一个受苦后最终赢得真爱的女孩。
And she's doing it by playing this role of, you know, the girl who suffers who then gets her man.
多米尼克，可以说现实映射了艺术吗？
And, Dominic, would it be fair to say that reality maps onto art?
确实如此。
It does indeed.
这个故事中，肥皂剧一再预示了接下来将要发生的事情，这真是非同寻常。
It's extraordinary how in this story again and again, the soap operas anticipate what is to follow.
是的。
Yeah.
因为1944年1月，她参加了一场招待会，在那里遇到了将永远改变她人生的男人——阿根廷政坛的新星、银幕偶像、上校胡安·多明戈·庇隆。
Because in January 1944, she goes to a gala event where she meets the man with whom her life will be forever entwined, and this is the rising star of Argentine politics, matinee idol, colonel Juan Domingo Peron.
庇隆。
Peron.
所以，我认为在这样一个充满戏剧性的肥皂剧式时刻，我们该结束这一集了，下次我们将回到伊娃与庇隆的震撼会面。
So I think on that thrilling soap opera esque moment, we should stop this episode, and we will come back next time with the seismic meeting of Eva and Peron.
你可以选择等待，如果你是那些受苦的阿根廷穷人的话
And you can either wait for it if you are a de camisado, if you are one of the suffering poor of Argentina
别生气。
Don't be mad.
但如果你是布宜诺斯艾利斯精英阶层的一员，属于那些高傲的乡村俱乐部成员，当然可以通过访问 restishistory.com 并注册收听。
But if you want to be a member of the Buenos Aires elite, part of the snooty country clubs, you can, of course, hear it on the rest is history.com by going there and signing up.
或者如果你已经是会员了，太棒了。
Or if you're already a member, brilliant.
所以我们下次再见。
So we will see you whenever.
希望你喜欢这一期，再见。
I hope you've enjoyed it, and hasta luego.
再见。
Bye bye.
关于 Bayt 播客
Bayt 提供中文+原文双语音频和字幕，帮助你打破语言障碍，轻松听懂全球优质播客。