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If you want more from the show, join the rest is history club.
随着圣诞节的临近，你还可以为你生命中的历史爱好者赠送一整年的会员资格。
And with Christmas coming, you can also gift a whole year of access to the history lover in your life.
只需访问restishistory.com并点击礼物选项。
Just head to the restishistory.com and click gifts.
你好。
Hello.
正如LP·哈特利那句名言所说，过去是一个陌生的国度。
And as LP Hartley famously said, the past is a foreign country.
那里的人们行事方式截然不同。
They do things differently there.
但真的如此吗？
But do they?
今天，在我们的节目《余下皆是历史》中，我们将聚焦于最近的过去，这个选题灵感来自《王冠》在网飞的回归。
Today on, our episode of the rest is history, we want to look at the very recent past, prompted by the return to Netflix of the crown.
但在我们深入这个话题之前——我知道多米尼克你已经迫不及待了，因为英国近代史正是你的专长领域，对吧？
But before we come to that, and I know, Dominic, you'll be straining at leash about this because, recent British history is very much your subject, isn't it?
确实如此。
So you're gonna have It is indeed.
有很多话要说。
Lots to say.
我只是想感谢所有听众朋友们，正是你们的支持让我们取得了如此精彩的开局。
I just wanted to say, to thank everybody who's, who's listening for having helped us get off to such a great start.
这真的太棒了。
It's it's it's fantastic.
刚开始推出这个节目时我们还有点紧张，但现在看到这么多听众在收听、发邮件、发推文参与互动，我们感到无比振奋。
We were bit nervous about launching this, but we're thrilled that so many of you are out there, are listening and are emailing in and tweeting and contributing.
请大家继续保持这种热情。
And please do keep that going.
嗯。
Yeah.
嗯，这挺让人意外的，对吧，汤姆？
Well, it's quite a surprise, isn't it, Tom?
我原本预计会遭到大量谩骂。
I was expecting a torrents of abuse.
当然，我平时每天都会收到大量谩骂，所以这对我来说是个不错的调剂
Well, I mean, I obviously get torrents of abuse naturally on a sort of daily basis anyway, so this is a nice break for me to
说实话，我原本以为会无人问津。
Well, I was I was kind of expect I was kind of expecting tumbleweed, to be honest.
所以既没有谩骂也没有冷清。
So so neither obese nor tumbleweeds.
请大家继续告诉我们你们的想法。
So do please keep, you know, keep letting us know what you think.
我们要不要念几条推文？
Should we should we read out some tweets?
那个
That
这会是个非常好的主意。
would be a very good idea.
是啊。
Yeah.
将与伟大的英国公众一起。
Would be with the with the great British public.
没错。
Yes.
我们收到一位叫亚历克斯·伯森的听众留言。
So we had somebody, Alex Berson.
他写道：感谢你们做这个节目。
He wrote, thanks for doing it.
其余的历史内容也很精彩。
The rest of history is great.
供你们消遣：摩尔多瓦的斯特凡大公在1990年代被东正教会封圣，现在被称为圣斯特凡大公。
For your amusement, Stephen the Great of Moldova was sanctified by the Orthodox Church in the nineteen nineties and is now Stephen the Great and saint.
他有四位妻子，正如圣人该有的样子，并以嗜血闻名，但他建造教堂并捍卫基督教。
He had four wives, as saint should, and was known to be quick to spill blood, but he built churches and defended Christianity.
他确实非常伟大。
He was quite great.
只是这位圣人的封号既是后期追加的，在第一集的背景下也颇具趣味性。
It's just that the saint is both a late edition and amusing in the context of episode one.
就是这样。
So there you go.
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
我是说，既是圣人又被称为伟人，这不就是方枘圆凿——完全矛盾吗？
I mean, being a saint and great, I mean, that's square in the circle, isn't it?
确实。
Yeah.
我是说，他什么都涉猎一点，不是吗？
I mean, he did a bit of everything, didn't he?
是啊。
Yeah.
博学多才。
Polymath.
我们还有安德鲁·沃克发来的消息。
We we also have a message from Andrew Walker.
他一直想知道学术界对尼禄的重新评价。
He's been wondering about academic reassessment of Nero.
哦，好啊。
Oh, good.
很好。
Good.
学术界对尼禄的重新评价。
Academic reassessment of Nero.
这正是我的专长。
That's very much my thing.
这个人确实存在。
This is definitely this person exists.
他不是你化名的汤姆。
He's not you under a false name, Tom.
我的马甲账号。
My sock puppet.
他在另一个播客Boohiss上听说过这事。
He's heard about it on another podcast, Boohiss.
哦。
Oh.
归结起来就是，他在平民中相当受欢迎。
It amounts to well, he was rather popular with the plebs.
后来的人们借他的名义提升自己的号召力，而批评他的人都是来自污秽之地的假新闻。
People after him invoked him to boost their appeal, and his critics were fake news from the swamp.
是啊。
Yeah.
我是说，基本上就是这样。
I mean, basically.
没错。
Yeah.
这点我无法反驳。
Can't disagree with that.
然后我们收到了艾玛·索尔兹伯里的一条精彩评论。
And and then we've got lovely, a lovely comment from Emma Salisbury.
我正在听这个。
I'm listening to this right now.
这感觉相当怀旧，就像参加历史学家们的友好晚宴，尽管汤姆·霍兰德和多米尼克·桑德布鲁克听不到我的插话。
It's rather nostalgically like being at a friendly dinner party with fellow historians even though Tom Holland and Dominic Sandbrook can't hear me chiming in.
这么说来，这人显然从未参加过历史学家的晚宴。
So that that's being somebody who's clearly never been as a dinner party with historians.
那种充满怨恨与敌意的氛围
The mood of bitterness and rancor.
没错
Yes.
好吧
Well,
怨恨与敌意正是我们的特色
bitterness and rancor is what we're all about.
总之，你可以加入这场晚宴，这场友好的晚宴，尽管参与进来
So, anyway, you can you can this dinner party, this friendly dinner party, do join in.
你可以插话，给我们发推文，带上话题标签#TheRestIsHistory
You can chime in, tweet us, hashtag the rest is history.
还有件非常令人兴奋的事——我们现在有了专属邮箱
And also, very excitingly, we've got an email address now.
Restishistorypod@gmail.com
Restishistorypod@gmail.com.
Restishistorypod@gmail.com。
Restishistorypod@gmail.com.
我喜欢这个终极历史晚宴的点子。
And I like that idea of the ultimate historical dinner party.
我觉得这可以作为未来一期节目的好主题。
I mean, I think that would be a good idea for a future episode.
比如说，纵观历史长河，哪些人会成为理想的晚宴宾客？
Say, what kind of people from across the range of history, who would make the ideal dinner party?
成吉思汗。
Genghis Khan.
不行。
No.
他会是个糟糕的选择。
He'd be terrible.
他会砍掉你的脑袋，用你的头骨当酒杯。
He he'd chop your head off and drink out of your skull.
这主意糟透了。
That's a terrible idea.
总之，听着。
Anyway, listen.
我们不会，我们不会讨论那个。
We won't we're not we're not gonna get onto that.
我们来说说王冠吧。
Let's get onto the crown.
好的。
Yes.
开始吧。
Let's.
因为我猜你对这个有看法吧？
Because I I'm guessing you have do you have views on this?
你看过《王冠》吗？
Have you seen The Crown?
汤姆，你很清楚，我从未看过《王冠》。
As you well know, Tom, I have never seen The Crown.
我连一分钟的《王冠》都没看过。
I have not seen so much as a minute of The Crown.
我为什么要看？
Why would I?
我的意思是，我每天工作时间都在思考哈罗德·威尔逊之类的事情。
I mean, I spend, you know, my working day thinking about Harold Wilson or whatever.
多米尼克，你从未看过《王冠》这一事实，是否妨碍了你写关于它的文章？
And and, Dominic, has the fact that that you have never seen The Crown, has it prevented you from writing about it?
没有。
No.
显然没有。
Obviously not.
我的意思是，那将与我坚持的一切背道而驰。
I mean, that would be that would be anathema to all I stand for.
你是不是刚刚写了一篇关于八十年代的长篇专题报道，正好配合《王冠》新一季以八十年代为背景的播出？
Have you have you have you just written an enormous spread about the eighties to coincide with the new series of The Crown set in the eighties?
没有。
No.
我没写。
I haven't.
不过我确实接受了BBC历史杂志的长篇采访，但他们知道我没看过这部剧。
But I have given I have given a long interview to BBC History Magazine about it, but they know I haven't seen it.
所以他们通过电话向我描述剧情。
So they describe it to me over the phone.
他们告诉我发生了什么，我告诉他们我的看法。
They tell me what happens, and I tell them what I think of it.
而我
And I
觉得这种方式效果很好。
think it works very well.
为了让听众们更清楚，你撰写过一部广受好评的现代英国史系列丛书，恰好涵盖了这几十年的时间跨度
And just just to make it clear to the listeners, you have you you've written a a highly acclaimed series of books about modern British history that exactly cover the the span of the decades
是的。
that Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
覆盖。
Cover.
你最新出版的书是关于什么的？
And your most recent book was, it was what?
那是一部约7000页的巨著，记录了撒切尔政府执政头三年
It was kind of, like, 7,000 page volume about three the first three years of the Thatcher government.
时间跨度从1979年到1982年
So from '79 to, to '82.
所以1981年正好处于这个时期的核心，那年当然还发生了皇家婚礼
So I'm bang in the bang in the middle of of of that is is the 1981, which, of course, has the royal wedding.
是啊。
Yeah.
嗯，王室婚礼对王室来说显然是件大事，对吧？
Well, the royal wedding's obviously a big deal for the crown, isn't it?
戴安娜那些事儿。
Diana and all that carry on.
而且这对王室来说比对你的书更重要。
And it's it's a bigger deal for the crown than it is for your book.
这么说很公平。
It would be fair to say.
它确实在我的书里被提到了。
Does it the it is mentioned in my book.
说实话汤姆，蛋糕、礼服、花童那些东西让我感到无比沮丧和痛苦。
I mean, there is a there is a whole section about the royal wedding, but I'm kinda more I mean, to be honest with you, Tom, cakes, dresses, you know, page boys, that sort of stuff fills me with utter gloom and and misery.
所以我在书里讨论它时，更多是关注人们如何看待它、它的意义，以及把它放在81年其他那些有趣事件的背景下。
So when I talked about it in my book, it was more what did people make of it, what was the meaning of it, and also actually putting it against the background of all this other stuff, which is so interesting, which is going on in '81.
所以骚乱、经济衰退，当然还有蟋蟀——这个我们稍后再谈，总之是动荡的一年。
So the riots, the recession, the crickets, of course, which we'll come to later, this sort of tumultuous year.
你知道，1981年就像1968年或2020年那样，是个具有超越性意义的年份。
You know, 1981 is one of those years, I suppose, a little bit like sort of 1968 or something that has a has a meaning beyond Or 2020, perhaps.
或者说2020年。
Or 2020.
正是如此。
Exactly.
我认为可以合理地说，1981年是我们一生中最灰暗的年份。
I think it's a re you can make a reasonable case that 1981 was the grimmest year in our lifetimes.
实际上比2020年更糟，因为2020年是全球性的，而1981年只有英国独自深陷泥潭。
And, actually, grimmer than 2020 because 2020 is worldwide, whereas 1981 was just you know, it was Britain that was uniquely in a terrible mess.
所以关键点在于，埃迪，大家都说这场婚礼就像童话。
So so so, I mean, the key thing about the the the role, Eddie, everyone said it it it was like a fairy tale.
讽刺之处在于，背景却是英国当时完全处于失业、骚乱等混乱状态。
And the irony about that is is partly that the backdrop is this, you know, Britain in in a state of complete turmoil, unemployment, rioting, and so on.
但当然还有这个事实，这段婚姻将会变得非常糟糕。
But also the fact, of course, that that the marriage was gonna go terribly wrong.
我只是好奇，在我们深入探讨1981年提供的历史背景之前，作为一位研究现代英国的历史学家，你如何看待王室家族的故事某种程度上已经变成了‘英国的核心叙事’，就像中世纪时亚瑟王的故事就是‘英国的核心叙事’一样？
And I just wonder, before we get before we get on to the the kind of historical context for of 1981 provides, what's your view as a historian of modern Britain about the way in which the story of the royal family has kind of become like the matter of Britain that, you know, like the matter of Britain in the Middle Ages was the story of King Arthur.
在某种程度上，对许多人来说，亚瑟王的故事反而更真实——他们对此的了解远超过对中世纪英格兰真实历史的认知。
That in a way, for lots of people, the story of King Arthur was was more real you know, they knew more about that than they knew anything about, you know, what was actually happening in medieval England.
而且有种微妙的感觉——你知道全球范围内人们对英国历史的了解主要就是...
And there's there's a kind of slight sense with you know, that globally, what people know about British history is kind of the you know?
尤其是戴安娜的故事，它就像是现代版的‘英国核心叙事’。
And and the story of Diana in particular, it's it's kind of like the modern matter of Britain.
人们都知道戴安娜的故事。
People know about the story of Diana.
它已经演变成了这种神话般的传说。
It's become this mythic story.
这具有任何历史意义吗？
Is does that have any historical significance?
我是说，这对英国在世界上的角色意味着什么？
I mean, what does that say about Britain's role in the world?
所以我认为戴安娜确实如此。
So I I think that's true of Diana.
对吧？
Right?
我认为确实如此，你可以从戴安娜的故事中解读出英国文化情感化的历史意义。
I think that's true that you can take the story of Diana and you can say but you can also tease out sort of historical meanings about, the sentimentalization of British culture.
戴安娜显然在英国公共生活中新型（或复兴型）情感主义浪潮中扮演了重要角色，比如拥抱艾滋病患者等行为。
Diana obviously played a big part in the sort of a new kind of or a renewed kind of emotionalism in Britain's sort of public life, sort of embracing AIDS sufferers and so on.
这些举动是王室成员或公众人物在十到二十年前绝不会做的。
You're doing things that the the monarchy or the or the public figures wouldn't have done ten or twenty years earlier.
因此在这个背景下，她显然是个重要人物。
So she's sort of she is an important figure in that context, obviously.
但更广泛地说到王室家族，我就不太确定了。
But the royal family more generally, I'm not so sure.
所以我同意你的观点。
So I agree with you.
有些事物确实比常规的政治事件更能引起人们的关注。
There are things that are that people care more about than the usual sort of political events.
体育运动就是个很好的例子。
Sport is actually a really good example of that.
很多人回顾近期历史时，不会想到大选或政府更迭。
So a lot of people, when they make sense of the recent past, they don't think about general elections and governments.
他们想到的是世界杯，自己支持的球队表现如何这类事情。
They think about World Cups and, you know, how their team got on and all that kind of thing.
音乐也是如此——如果你问人们关于青春的记忆，比如六七十年代成长的人，他们往往会用音乐作为文化参照。
And music, again, you ask anybody about their their youth or or the you know, if they grew up in the sixties or the seventies, it's often music that they turn to as their cultural references.
他们会说六十年代随着披头士解散而结束，七十年代随着席德·维瑟斯去世之类的事件画上句点。
And they'll say, well, the sixties ended when the Beatles broke up or, you know, the seventies ended when, you know, Sid Vicious died or whatever it might be.
人们会把这些事件当作近期历史的时间坐标。
People will look on those things as the sort of the sort of chronological structuring, I guess, for the recent past.
所以我不太确定君主制是我会选择的那个关键因素。
So I'm not so sure that the monarchy is the key one that I would go for.
我的意思是，也许是因为我并不太在意这类
I mean, maybe it's because I don't really care that much about the sort
王室故事。
of royal story.
嗯，你提到音乐很有意思，因为实际上，八十年代对我来说有趣的是那时我正值青少年时期，所以开始对政治有所意识。
Well, I it's interesting you talk about music because, actually, the the thing for me that's interesting about the eighties is that it's when I was a teenager, so I was becoming kind of aware of politics.
我记得当时有个《9点新闻》的讽刺节目，他们没报道皇家婚礼。
I remember, there was not the 09:00 news, which is kind of satire show, and they did not the royal wedding.
那是我第一次见到对皇室如此不敬的对待。
And I it was kind of like the first disrespectful treatment of the royal family that I'd come across.
我记得当时大概13岁，觉得这简直太棒了。
And I remember, you know, I was kind of 13, thought it was thought it was great.
但我还想起当时电台一档正在播出的系列节目。
But what I also remember is that there was a series on, I think, on Radio One at the time.
这个节目叫《摇滚二十五年》，从1955年一直播到1979年。
It's called twenty five years of rock, and it ran from 1955 to 1979.
它将时事新闻与当年流行音乐的原声带巧妙结合。
And it it kind of set current affairs to a soundtrack of the music of that particular year.
节目在79年就停播了。
And it stopped in '79.
从未延续到1980、1981年及之后。
It never went on into 1980, 1981, and so on.
对此我感到非常失望。
I was hugely disappointed about that.
但刚才你谈到音乐和81年的动荡事件时，我在想那些真正留下伤痕的经历——大规模失业、内城区的贫困问题。
But what I was thinking now when you were talking about music and the the tumultuous events of of '81 is the way in which, you know, the really scarring experience was was mass unemployment, inner city deprivation.
而这段历史的背景音乐永远是《鬼镇》这首歌。
And the soundtrack to that you always get is ghost town.
就像你一听到这首歌，就知道这是八十年代初期的时代印记。
And that's kind of like you know, the moment you hear that, that that is early eighties thaturism.
它确实能让人立刻联想到那个场景，不是吗？
It's it just kind of conjures it up, doesn't it?
是啊。
Yeah.
确实如此。
It does.
我是说，我拍过一部关于八十年代的电视纪录片，我不确定我们是否用了《鬼城》这首歌。
I mean, I did a TV documentary about the eighties, and I I can't remember if we used ghost town or not.
但当我们制作时，我们讨论过这个问题，我们说所有人都期待在讲述矿工罢工时——按照某种联合国规定的法则——必须用《两个部落》这首歌，对吧？
But when we were we were doing it, we kind of went through it, we said, everybody expects it that when we do the miners' strike by law, by sort of UN mandated law, you have to have two tribes, don't you?
对。
Yes.
没错。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
所以现在播放的是奥格雷夫战役和两个部落的片段。
So the footage of the Battle of Orgrave and two tribes is playing.
是啊。
Yeah.
我们当时就说，要尽可能避开这种情况。
And we we sort of said, we need to steer clear of this as much as we can.
不过我觉得我们可能确实用了《鬼城》这首歌。
Although, I think we probably did use Ghost Town.
所以你说得对。
So you're right.
但我的意思是，这种情况在更早的时期也一样存在。
That's but that's true of I mean, that's true of older periods too.
对吧？
Right?
当你拍摄维多利亚中期的英国时，总会用到狄更斯的作品。
When you're you're doing mid Victorian Britain, you always use Dickens.
是的。
Yeah.
但你在谈论音乐。
But you're talking about music.
音乐可以说是一种通用语言。
Music is a kind of lingua franca, if you like.
每个人都能理解它的含义。
It's a everybody understands what it means.
大家都有相同的联想等等。
Everybody has the same associations and so on.
所以我认为这与使用早期文学资料来象征特定时代、特定氛围并没有本质区别。
So I don't think it's actually that different from using literary sources from earlier periods to illustrate, you know, to to to sort of connote a particular time, a particular atmosphere.
你不这么认为吗？
Don't you think?
嗯，我觉得略有不同，因为自五十年代以来，音乐已经提供了一种人人都记得并识别的背景音，这纯粹是因为音乐产业已经发展得如此庞大，而人们消费音乐的能力也呈指数级增长。
Well, I I I think it's slightly different to the degree that that that music since the fifties has kind of provided a soundtrack that everyone remembers and recognizes simply because the music industry has has has grown so much, and the the ability of people to consume it has has has grown exponentially.
正是出于这个原因，它确实能唤起人们的联想。
And kind of for that reason, it it it does kind of conjure up images.
所以，就像皇室一样，英国在音乐产业中一直占据着核心地位。
So so, you know, rather like the the royal family, Britain has has been very central to the music industry.
因此我认为披头士的故事与戴安娜的故事有某种相似性，几乎是一个人人皆知的传奇故事。
So I would say that the story of the Beatles is a kind of parallel to the the story of Diana, that it's it's a kind of almost mythic tale that everyone Yeah.
某种程度上是本能地知晓。
Kind of instinctively knows.
同样地，音乐的故事、皇室的故事、体育的故事，所有这些都构成了近代历史的一部分。
And likewise, the the story of music, the story of the royal family, the story of sport, all of this is a kind of part of the, the the the fabric of recent history.
我在想，是否因为这是我们记忆中的部分才显得重要？
And I just wonder, you know, is it part of that because that's what we remember?
还是因为这是我们最鲜活的体验？
That's what we experienced most vividly?
或者它比这些意义更为深远？
Or or is it more significant than that?
这是个好问题。
That's a good question.
它比那更重要吗？
Is it more significant than that?
我认为这其中确实有关于英国在世界舞台上衰落以及我们向世界推销自己的方式的故事。
I think it it it there is a sort of a story about the Britain's decline on the world stage and the way we sell ourselves to the world.
我们现在通过流行文化推销自己，这种方式在十九世纪是不可想象的。
We sell ourselves through pop culture now in a way that we wouldn't have done, you know, in the, let's say, the nineteenth century.
所以如果你对十九世纪的英国人说，这个时代最重要的就是我们极其丰富的音乐厅传统，以及我们将会因那些精彩的小说而被铭记，人们会嘲笑你。
So if you said to somebody in nineteenth century Britain, well, the most important thing about this given moment is our tremendously rich tradition of music hall, and we will be remembered for our splendid novels, people would have laughed at you.
他们会说那根本不重要。
They'd have said that's not important at all.
而现在，我认为我们确实觉得这些事情很重要，它们体现了英国特质。
Whereas now, I think we do think these things are important, and they are redolent of Britishness.
所以它们正是我们关注的重点。
So they're what we think matters.
所以当丹尼·博伊尔执导2012年奥运会开幕式时，很大一部分内容都在展现英国的音乐叙事传统等等，这些元素仿佛已内化为英国特质的一部分。
So when Danny Boyle did his twenty twelve Olympics opening ceremony, a lot of it was about Britain's tradition of music and storytelling and all the rest of it, that these things were kind of intrinsic to Britishness.
因此当我们讲述近现代历史时，自然会聚焦于这些文化符号也就不足为奇了。
So it's not surprising that when we tell a story of the very recent past, it's those things that we look to.
因为说实话，比起泰德·希思政府的兴衰——这种大多数人根本不在乎的政坛往事——这些文化符号确实显得更有生命力。
Because actually, those things seem more sort of vital than, you know, the story of the rise and fall of Ted Heath's government, which most people couldn't give a damn And
不过话说回来，八十年代初期的一个特点就是政治以某种前所未有的直白方式强行闯入公众视野。
and and yet, I suppose one of the one of the things about about the early eighties is actually that that politics is really kind of viscerally in your face in a way that perhaps it it hadn't been at any other period.
我是说，也许可能在...我不确定，大概是在希思政府时期，那时相当软弱，不。
I mean, maybe maybe in the, I don't know, in in in in the Heath government with the pretty weak and No.
但远比希思政府时期严重得多。
But far more than in the Heath government.
我认为八十年代的政治是个非常宏大的叙事故事。
I think politics in the eighties is such a great narrative story.
还有还有还有，1981年英国南北之间、乡村与与与内城之间的分裂。
And and and and the divisions in Britain in '81 between north and south, between country and and and inner city.
我是说，这这这展现了国家分裂的程度。
And mean, give give give a sense of how divided the country was.
我认为分裂得非常严重。
I think enormously divided.
而且，你知道，对于那些不记得这段历史的年轻听众来说，玛格丽特·撒切尔在79年接手时，正值国家经历多年衰退的时期。
And and, you know, for people who don't for younger listeners who don't remember it, Margaret Thatcher had come in in '79 after sort of perceived years of decline.
她基本上表示要实施这种休克疗法，这种严厉的补救措施来扭转英国的局面。
And she basically said she's going to she was gonna administer this shock therapy, this sort of harsh medicine that would turn Britain around.
但两年后，一切似乎都变得不可估量地更糟了。
And after two years, everything seemed to have got incalculably worse.
当时英国正处于经济衰退中。
So Britain was in recession.
我们的失业率实际上已经逼近400万大关。
We had unemployment of more than you know, heading towards 4,000,000 effectively.
年轻人尤其找不到工作。
Young people in particular couldn't get jobs.
首先是四月份布里克斯顿发生骚乱，随后在夏季蔓延至全国。
You had riots, first of all, in Brixton in April and then spreading around the country in the summer.
北爱尔兰爆发了大规模骚乱，那里曾有梅兹监狱共和党囚犯的绝食抗议。
You had massive, unrest, massive, rioting in Northern Ireland where you'd had the hunger strikes of, Republican prisoners in the Mayes Prison.
当时有种感觉，整个国家正在分崩离析——几乎在西欧独树一帜，这个曾经的帝国、主要的工业国家正在瓦解，可以说人们在政治上也在自我撕裂。
You had this sort of sense that the whole country was coming unglued and that almost uniquely in Western Europe, you know, here was this sort of former imperial power, this major industrial nation that was just coming apart, and people were sort of that it was politically tearing itself apart, I suppose.
因此这届政府成为了有记录以来最不受欢迎的政府。
So the government was the most unpopular government since records began.
反对党工党内部的分裂程度令人难以置信。
The Labour Party, the opposition party was incredibly bitterly divided.
当时存在一种比脱欧时期更为强烈的情绪，充满了怨恨与敌意，人们真切地感受到赌注之高——事关联合王国的存亡，关乎每个家庭的生计。
And there was this real sense of which far greater, I think, than anything even over Brexit, of of rancor and of of sort of, you know, hostility, a real sense of the stakes being so high and the and the stakes being the survivor of The United Kingdom, you know, the prosperity of you and your family.
要知道，这些绝非象征性的议题。
You know, this is not a sort of these are not symbolic issues.
这些都是直击生存根本的民生问题。
These are incredibly visceral kind of bread and butter issues.
但你看，我觉得近代史之所以难以把握，是因为我亲身经历过那段时期。
But the you see, the the the reason why recent history is I I find it kind of challenging to to to get a handle on is that I lived through it.
当时我住在威尔特郡一个田园诗般的村庄里。
And I I was in a a idyllic Wiltshire village.
有趣的是，我现在住在布里克斯顿。
And oddly, I I now live in Brixton.
要知道，布里克斯顿曾是警察暴力和骚乱的中心地带。
So, you know and Brixton was was kind of the epicenter of of police brutality and and and the rioting.
但对我来说，那些事就像发生在百万英里之外。
But, you know, it was it was it might as well have been a million miles for me.
关于1981年，我记得我母亲当时住院了。
And what I remember about the '81 is that my my my mother was in hospital.
父亲说他不得不照顾我。
My father said you know, he had to look after me.
他也不知道还能做些什么。
Didn't know what else to do.
他说，好吧，我们来看场板球测试赛吧。
He said, well, let's watch a Test match.
而我当时对板球毫无兴趣。
And I had no interest in cricket.
对任何体育运动都提不起兴趣。
Had no interest in sports at all.
那场在Headingley举行的测试赛，堪称史上最具变革性、最非凡的板球赛事之一。
That Test match was Headingley, and it was one of the most transformative, remarkable cricket matches of all time.
我知道不关注板球的人——尤其是非英国听众——听到这里会有些困惑。
I know that people who are not interested in cricket, certainly people who are who are not British listening to this will be slightly bewildered by it.
但这场赛事出现了童话般的惊天逆转，英格兰队原本已濒临绝境。
But but it it it there was this astonishing kind of fairy tale reversal where England had been down and out.
他们奇迹般地战胜了我们的老对手澳大利亚队，完成了不可能的任务。
They cape they they they triumphed against all the odds over Australia, our old, sporting rival.
而伊恩·博瑟姆——如今主要以支持脱欧和被鲍里斯·约翰逊提拔为上议院议员闻名——当时是这场赛事的英雄人物。
And, Ian Botham, a figure who is now famous chiefly for supporting Brexit and having been raised by Boris Johnson to the House of Lords, was the hero of the hour.
这从根本上改变了我的生活，因为它让我爱上了板球，从此成为我生命中最大的爱好之一。
And that essentially changed my life because it persuaded me to take off cricket, which has been the one of the great loves of my life ever since.
这就是我对1981年的记忆。
So that is how I remember 1981.
所以从情感和个人角度来说，这就是我与它的关联。
So emotionally, personally, that's that's my stake in it.
我...我本人没有经历过骚乱或失业之类的遭遇。
I I I had no personal experience of riots or unemployment or, or anything like that.
你知道，这让人想到常说的关于重大事件的看法——其实正如你在书中反复强调的，即使可怕的事情发生时，大多数人其实都过得很好。
And it's kind of you know, it makes you as what what's often said about the great events is that actually off and it's a point you make repeatedly throughout your books that often, even when terrible things are happening, most people are actually perfectly happy.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为...我认为你说得对，汤姆。
I think that's that's right, Tom.
我是说，我想我们该接着谈谈板球了。
I mean, I think we should get on to the cricket in a second.
说真的，我简直不敢相信，这期播客你花了超过15分钟才把话题转到伊恩·博瑟姆身上。
I can't believe, by way, it took you more than fifteen minutes of this podcast Well to turn the conversation to Ian Botham.
不过，我们先把他们俩放一边吧。
However, let's put both of them on one side.
让我们稍后再回到板球手博瑟姆的话题，因为我认为板球确实具有重要的历史意义，或许我们可以在休息后再深入探讨。
Let's put let's come back to Botham the cricket, because I think the cricket actually does have a proper historical significance, which we can get into maybe after the break.
但在那之前，没错。
But before that, yes.
撰写当代历史是件非常奇特的事，因为往往当你谈论它时，你正与亲历者们对话。
It's a very strange thing writing about contemporary history because, of course, often, when you're talking about it, you're talking to people who lived through it.
这与研究王朝兴衰或撰写罗马人、希腊人相关著作时遇到的问题截然不同。
Now, that's not a problem that you really have when you're doing, you know, Dynasty or or Rubicon or any of your books on the Romans or the Greeks or whatever.
毕竟古人没法跳出来反驳你的错误。
I mean, they're not around to tell you you're wrong.
当我谈论自己作品时，常能看到台下有人点头赞同，但也总有人会说‘六十年代根本不是那样’或‘七十年代完全不是你说的那样’这类话。
When I go to talk about my books, often, know, there'll be people nodding in the audience, and then there'll be other people who say, oh, but the sixties wasn't like that at all, or the seventies, you know, wasn't like that.
我是说，这很常见。
I mean, that's very common.
我想作为当代英国历史学家，首先你必须把自己的经历放在一边。
And I guess one of the things with being a historian of contemporary Britain is, first of all, you have to you have to put your own experience on one side.
但同时，你还得平衡好作为历史学家的职责——既要构建自己的叙事框架，讲述你的故事。
But also, you have to juggle, you know, your own job as the historian, which is to impose your pattern and to tell your story.
又得兼顾这些纷繁复杂的个体经历。
But also the complexity of all these kind of individual stories.
这对于古代历史学家来说就不是个问题，因为史料本身就有限。
Now that's not really something that you have to confront as an ancient historian because you don't have many sources.
所以你不需要处理那些非典型个体的全部故事。
So you don't have all the individual stories of all the people who are unrepresentative.
确实确实确实是这样。
That's that's that's that's true.
确实如此。
That's true.
但我认为古代历史最迷人的一点，往往是偶尔能瞥见人们过着他们的日常生活。
But I think that that one of the fascinating things about about ancient history often is the the glimpses you get occasionally of people leading their normal lives.
没错。
Right.
这些痕迹可能保存在墓碑上。
So and it could be preserved on tombstones.
也可能保存在一首诗里。
It could be preserved in a poem.
你知道，那种在战火纷飞时还能出门躺在田野里的感觉。
You know, the hints of what it's like to just go out and lie in a field while civil war is going all around you.
给我们举个例子。
Give us an example.
其实，我脑海中一直挥之不去的例子来自西塞罗的信件。
Well, actually, the the the the example that always sticks in my mind comes from the letters of Cicero.
西塞罗当然深陷于终结罗马共和国的动荡之中。
Cicero, of course, is is intimately involved in the convulsions that ends the Roman Republic.
但有一封信里，他提到自己的一栋房子出现了裂缝。
But there's a letter in which he he writes about a a house he owns, and it's got a crack.
你知道，裂缝出现了，他对此有点担忧。
You know, a crack has opened up, he's a bit worried about this.
他在想，该怎么修补它呢？
You know, how's he gonna repair it?
即便身处西塞罗深度参与的所有重大事件中，他仍会为这类DIY修缮之类的小事操心，这个想法很有意思。
And the idea that even amid all the events that Cicero was intimately involved in, he's worrying about kind of DIY repairs and things like that.
他该怎么办呢？
What's he gonna do?
我认为这表达了一个基本事实：生活仍在继续。
I I I think that that's expressive of a fundamental truth that life carries on.
它确实在继续。
It goes on.
有一首哈代的著名诗作，我想是他写的，他在诗里说，你知道吗？
There's a kind of famous Hardy poem, isn't there, which I think he wrote, where he he he says, do you know what?
我们休息一下，我去查查那首哈代的诗，回来时读给大家听。
Let's let's go for a break, and I'll look that that Hardy poem up, and I'll read it to you when we come back.
欢迎大家回来。
Welcome back, everybody.
我想汤姆有首诗要分享给我们。
I think Tom has a poem for us.
是的。
I do.
这是《历史的余韵》节目中首次朗诵诗歌。
It's the first poem that we've had on, The Rest is History.
这是哈代的作品，名为《列国破碎时》。
It's by Hardy, and it's called In Time of the Breaking of Nations.
我要读第三节：'远处有位少女，白衣飘过，细语呢喃'。
I'm gonna read the third the third verse, and it's yonder a maiden her white come whispering by.
'战争的记载终将湮没于黑夜，而她们的故事永不消逝'。
War's annals will cloud into night ere their story die'.
所以你知道的，伙计。
So you know, peep.
即使战争持续，少男少女们仍会相约出游。
Girls and boys will hang out with each other even though war's going on.
但有趣的是第一节诗'唯见一人锄地，缓步无声，伴一匹老马踉跄点头，半睡半醒地踱步'。
But interestingly the first verse 'only a man harrowing clods in a slow silent walk with an old horse that stumbles and nods half asleep as they stalk.
很难断言人们会永远用马匹耕作，这显然不现实。
So hard to say, you know, that people will be ploughing with horses till the end of time, and that obviously isn't true.
所以不。
So No.
谢谢，D。
Thanks, D.
J。
J.
这是个很好的例子，对吧，汤姆？
That's a good example like this, aren't they, Tom?
我在休息前刚想到一个。
I was thinking one before just before the break.
所以关于亚历山大大帝去世当天的唯一记录来源，是一份由巴比伦祭司保存的占星日记，里面全是关于天气的内容。
So the the only source from the day that Alexander the Great died was a a Babylonian astrological diary kept by a priest, and he and it's all about the weather.
是的。
Yes.
嗯，对。
Well, yeah.
他大致写了句‘国王死了’。
He sort of says, the king died.
与此同时，天气非常阴沉多云且血腥，他对天气的关注远超过对事件的描述——这不正是我们大多数人看待政治和世界的方式吗？
Meanwhile, it was very cloudy and overcast and bloody and he gives more attention to the weather than he does and that's how most of us think about politics and, you know, the world, isn't it?
这很可能是杜撰的吧？据说7月14日路易十六的日记里写着‘没什么大事发生’。
It's it's apocryphal, isn't it, that on the the July 14, Louis the sixteenth's diary read nothing much happened.
是啊。
Yeah.
我认为那很可能就是如此。
I think that's I think that probably is.
我想那可能是狩猎记录之类的。
I think it was may maybe it was the record of game or something.
我觉得1700年后所有国王的日记都是这样。
I think that's what I think that's what all kings post about 1700.
他们本应记录重大事件。
They're supposed to have written about major events.
总之，回到回到81年的话题。
Anyway, back back back to back back to '81.
是的。
Yes.
你刚才想说1981年的板球赛确实具有重大历史意义，我很想确认这点，因为能学到这个会很棒。
You you were gonna say that actually the that the the the cricket in 1981 was of immense historical significance, which I'd I'd love to be reassured on that because that that would be great to learn.
我认为它具有非常重大的历史意义。
I think it is of big great historical significance.
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因此，自六十年代末以来，英国的消息一直相当糟糕。
So the news for Britain since the late sixties had been pretty awful.
尽管实际上大多数人的生活比以往任何时候都好，但报纸头条总是负面新闻。
So although most people are actually better off than they'd ever been, the sort of headlines were always bad.
大约从1967年开始，也就是哈罗德·威尔逊让英镑贬值的那一年，政府就不断陷入困境，对英国来说一切都变得很糟。
So from about 1967 onwards, which is when Harold Wilson devalued the pound, governments had been constantly in trouble, and everything had been bad for Britain.
我认为在七十年代末，人们开始产生一种渴望好消息的迫切感。
And I think at the end of the nineteen seventies, you you started to get this sense that people were thirsting for some good news.
我认为第一个迹象是民众对SAS突袭伊朗大使馆行动的反应，
So the first sign of that, I think, was the reaction to the SAS's raid on the Iranian embassy,
他们
which they
在1980年解救了被围困的大使馆。
liberated from a siege in 1980.
小报等媒体几乎呈现出一种歇斯底里的反应，宣称英国在汤姆·纳什等人的带领下再次伟大，诸如此类的报道。
And you have this almost hysterical reaction from the tabloids and so on that Britain is great again with Tom Nation, all of this kind of stuff.
然后在1981年你又两次见证了这种情绪。
And then you see it again twice in 1981.
一次是皇家婚礼，你知道，我们在盛况与排场上引领世界。
Once is the royal wedding when, you know, we we lead the world in pomp and pageantry.
另一次是对赢得一场板球测试赛的极度狂热反应。
And the other time is this incredibly hysterical reaction to winning one Test match.
不。
No.
三场。
Three.
我们赢了三场。
We won three.
我们赢了三场。
We won three.
是的。
Yes.
但这是
But it's
正是赫伦吉测试引发了这场反应。
the Hellenge test that that sparks the reaction.
所以这是复出。
So it's comeback.
我觉得有趣的是，当时的英雄博瑟姆曾是英格兰队队长。
And I think the funny thing about it is so Botham, who is the hero of the hour, he had been the England captain.
他曾是那种充满青春活力的形象，像一头咆哮的雄狮所向披靡，被任命为英格兰队长后却未尝胜绩。
He'd been this incredibly sort of youthful figure, this sort of raging lion who's carrying all before him, who's appointed England captain, then he know he doesn't win a match as captain.
他当时创下了英格兰板球史上最差的队长战绩纪录，因此被解除了队长职务。
He has the worst record of any test captain at that point in history, and he's sacked from the captaincy.
就在他被免职当天，报纸头条旁边配的是骚乱现场的照片。
And the day that he's sacked from the captaincy, the headlines are juxtaposed with the images of rioting.
这两条主要新闻本质上讲的是同一件事。
So they're the two main stories, and they're both basically the same story.
这个故事说的是英国曾经辉煌，但现在却一团糟。
And that story is Britain has been great, but now it's rubbish.
它正在自我撕裂。
It's tearing itself apart.
它连板球比赛都赢不了。
It can't win cricket matches.
城市陷入火海。
Its cities are in flames.
一切都像是场灾难。
All is sort of disaster.
然后偏偏是他们，这些保守派工人阶级英格兰的化身，扭转了局面，不是吗，以这种非凡的
And then both of them, of all people, the sort of incarnation of conservative working class England, turns it around, doesn't he, in this extraordinary sort of
是啊。
Yeah.
赫拉克勒斯般的壮举。
Herculean feat.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
媒体都欣喜若狂。
And the press are beside themselves.
我们再次成为顶级国家。
We are top nation again.
仅仅几周后，王室婚礼就举行了。
And just a couple of weeks later, you have the royal wedding.
当然，我认为这一切为福克兰群岛事件中那种民粹主义爱国主义奠定了基础。
And, of course, what that all lays the foundation for, I think, is the sort of populist patriotism that you get with the Falklands.
所以基本上这是在铺垫——这些都是福克兰战争一年后即将发生之事的预兆。
So it's basically laying you know, these are all omens of what is to come a year later when the Falklands War happens.
这些就是你所说的撒切尔主义元素，撒切尔对特定群体那种全国性的感召力，而他们两人至今仍体现着这种特质。
And and these are elements of what you'd call Thatcherism, of Thatcher's sort of, you know, nationwide appeal to a particular audience, which both of them still incarnate.
嗯，在职业板球运动员的工会——板球运动员协会里常有人说，这是唯一一个比雇主还要右翼的工会。
Well, it's it's often said at the Players Association, which is the trades union of of professional cricketers, that it's it's the only trades union that's more right wing than its employers.
而且，而且，博瑟姆成为了撒切尔主义胜利的象征，确切地说是英格兰的胜利，而非不列颠。
And and and both I mean, Botham becomes a kind of emblem for the triumph of of Thatcherite well, England, really, rather than Britain.
撒切尔主义的英格兰。
Thatcherite England.
他是个热衷狩猎、射击、钓鱼的人，后来成为脱欧派，如今已是上议院议员。
He's a hunting, shooting, fishing man, and he in due course, becomes Brexiteer, and he's now in the House of Lords.
但他最有趣的地方在于，他既前瞻又怀旧。
But what's so interesting about him, right, is that he's forward looking and backward looking.
就拿1981年的伊恩·博瑟姆来说，你可以往前看，联想到脱欧这类事情。
So if you take Ian Bauthem in 1981, he you know, you can sort of look forward and say Brexit and all of that kind of stuff.
或者你也可以往回看，说他本质上是个什么人物呢？十八世纪的遗老吗？
Or you can look back, and you can say he's basically what is he, an eighteenth century figure?
你知道，你几乎能想象他站在HMS胜利号甲板上的样子。
You know, you can imagine him on the deck of HMS Victory.
是的。
Yes.
你知道的，老英格兰的烤牛肉。
You know, the roast beef of old England.
我是说，他的绰号'牛肉佬'就很说明问题。
I mean, nick his very nickname, Beefy.
没错。
Yes.
简直不能更十八世纪了。
Could not be more eighteenth century.
还有段非常尴尬的经历，他曾去洛杉矶试图成为詹姆斯·邦德，这事我们就不多提了。
And there was a very embarrassing, stage where he went to LA to try and become James Bond, which I think will draw a curtain over that.
但他们俩还有另一个共同点，这很有趣地与种族骚乱相关——他们都与维夫·理查兹是挚友，
But there is also another aspect to to to both of them, which ties in interestingly with with the particularly the race riots in is is that both of them was was great friends with Viv Richards, the Yes.
可以说是西印度群岛最伟大的击球手，那个时代最杰出的球员。
Probably the the the the great West Indies batsman, the greatest batsman of his day.
两人始终都活在他的光环之下。
Both of was always slightly in his shadow.
有趣的是，展望2020年，西印度群岛队与英格兰队争夺的奖杯原本名为智慧杯，现已更名为维维安·理查兹与伊恩·博瑟姆杯。
And interesting, another thing kind of, you know, looking forward to 2020 is that the, the trophy that West Indies and England compete for had been called the wisdom trophy is now the the, the vivid chas Ian Botham trophy.
因此他也期待着一个种族关系不再像1981年那样紧张的未来。
So there is also a sense in which he's looking forward to a future in which race relations will be less explosive than they were in 1981.
是啊。
Yeah.
这个观点确实很有意思。
That's a really interesting point.
我认为他与维维安·理查兹相处融洽的原因之一在于他们都是局外人。
And I think one reason that he got on so well with Viv Richards was they were both outsiders.
在这个由白人公学毕业生主导的运动中，两人都深切感受到自己作为局外人的处境。
And both of felt very keenly his outsider status in a game dominated by white public schoolboys.
所以他与维维安·理查兹建立了深厚友谊，不是吗？
So he he sort of he bonded with Viv Richards, didn't he?
我想他确实佩戴了
I think he wore Yeah.
一种牙买加颜色的腕带，以此表达对理查兹的声援
The Jamaican colors in a kind of wristband to show his solidarity with with Richards.
是的
Yeah.
这非常有趣，因为你们几乎形成了一种黑人与白人外来者的联盟，共同对抗那些他和理查兹都认为主宰着这项运动的旧势力——那些上流社会的精英们
And that's really interesting because you have this sort of almost like black and white alliance of the outsiders against the old guard, the Toffs, that both him and Richards felt were dominating the game.
好的
Okay.
这正是历史学家会做的事情——聚焦于这样一个象征性人物，并挖掘出那些或许能反馈到更广阔背景中的特质
And so so that's that's the kind of thing that that a a a historian would do is to pick up on a totemic figure like that and tease out aspects of him that perhaps you can then feed back into the broader context.
这样做合理吗？
Is that a fair thing to do?
我的意思是，如果我们审视皇家婚礼、板球赛事和音乐
I mean, if we're looking at the royal wedding, we're looking at the the the cricket, we're looking at the music.
这能告诉我们撒切尔政府在工会政策上的什么立场？
What does that tell us about trade union policy of the Thatcher government?
回答我这个问题。
Answer me that.
这个我...好吧。
That I okay.
你给我出了个难题。
You've sent me a challenge here.
嗯，我的回答是，撒切尔的工会政策之所以成功，是因为大多数普通工会成员普遍认同她推行的每一项渐进式改革。
Well, I mean, my answer to that would be that Thatcher's trade union policy succeeded because most ordinary trade unionists generally agreed with the piecemeal bits of the so each individual reform that she passed, individual trade unionists agreed with.
工会领袖们并不认同这些改革，但她显然吸引了一类有抱负的工人阶级，你知道的，就是那些技术娴熟、受人尊敬、向上流动的工人阶级，尤其是在英格兰。
Their leaders didn't agree with them, but she obviously appealed to a kind of aspirational working class, you know, sort of skilled, respectable, upwardly mobile working class people, particularly in England.
所以你所说的典型埃塞克斯人形象。
So your classic kind of Essex man.
伊恩·博瑟姆虽然不是埃塞克斯人，但两者确实存在相似之处。
Now Ian Botham is not an Essex man, but there are definitely parallels.
撒切尔的工会政策触及到了一种工人阶级的保守主义，她说你的工会实际上在拖你的后腿。
And there's a kind of working class conservatism that Thatcher's union policy reaches out to, which is, you know, your union is actually she says your union is holding you back.
你的集体忠诚正在阻碍你前进。
Your collective loyalty is holding you back.
你应该把自己视为个体，去奋斗争取更好的生活。
You should think of yourself as an individual and get on and fight for a better life.
这就是伊恩·博瑟姆所代表的，不是吗？
That's what Ian Botham's about, isn't it?
对。
Right.
那么关于...好吧，我们接着聊博瑟姆以外的话题。
And so so opinions on well, moving on from Botham.
其实我是想说关于博瑟姆的看法。
I mean, actually, opinions on Botham.
不过还是说说对撒切尔政府的看法吧，或许...是的。
But opinions on on the Thatcher government and perhaps Yeah.
撒切尔夫人尤其如此，这虽已是历史课题，但至今仍深深牵动着政治神经。
Missus Thatcher particularly, it's it's a subject of history, but it still remains very, very intensely a a matter of of politics as well.
你对撒切尔夫人所作所为的评价，将决定你在2020年的政治立场。
Your your your opinion of of what missus Thatcher did will define you politically today in 2020.
完全正确，汤姆。
That's absolutely right, Tom.
要知道，
You know, in
某种意义上，就像法国大革命一样，现在下结论还为时过早。
in a sense, you know, like the French Revolution, it's too early to tell.
这个嘛，我不确定，但确实言之过早。
What Well, I don't know, but it's too early to tell.
我跟你讲个故事吧。
I'll tell you what, a story.
当初我决定撰写这套关于现代英国的丛书时，有位如今在利兹大学任历史教授的朋友问我：'你会写八十年代吗？'
I always when I first decided I was gonna write these series of books about modern Britain, a friend of mine, who's now a professor of history at Leeds, he said to me, are you gonna do the eighties?
我回答说，哦，当然。
And and I said, oh, yeah.
我必须写。
I have to.
他又问，什么？
And he said, what?
你要写撒切尔？
You're do Thatcher?
我说，对。
I said, yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
然后他带着几分嘲弄意味地笑了起来。
Well and he just kinda laughed in in quite a sort of mocking way.
他还说，所有人都会恨死你的。
And he said, everybody will really hate you.
你知道吗？
You know?
我就问，为什么？
And I said, why?
他说，因为我了解你。
He said, well, because I know you.
你会试图寻找，你知道的，你会看到事情的两面。
You'll try to find you know, you'll see both sides.
你会试图保持平衡之类的。
You'll try to be balanced and all this.
但对撒切尔你不能保持中立。
You can't be balanced about Thatcher.
人们只想要你恨她。
People just want you to hate her.
当然，这话也有几分道理。
And, of course, there's some truth in in that.
而我处理这个问题的方式，某种程度上是说，撒切尔在某种意义上算是最后一位伟人。
And my way of dealing with that, partly, was to say, of Thatcher, you know, in some ways, she's the last sort of great man.
我们在第一集就讨论过伟人的话题。
We talked about greatness in the first episode.
伟人、伟女，这类史学主题已经所剩无几。
Great man, great woman, sort of historiographical subject left.
所以人们以此为依据。
So people base it.
他们对撒切尔的态度基于认为她彻底改变了英国——无论好坏。
Their attitude to Thatcher is they think she changed Britain either for good or ill.
而我主要论点之一其实是：这真的属实吗？还是说她只是反映了自下而上的变革潮流？
And and one of my big arguments is, actually, you know, is that really true, or is she really reflecting changes that are driven from below as it were?
试想如果她在1978年就去世，英国会有很大不同吗？
You know, if she died in 1978, would Britain have been very different?
我的观点是：不会。
My argument is that it wouldn't.
实际上发生的事情是，你知道，她更像是变革的征兆而非变革的推动者。
That what happened actually hap you know, she was a symptom of the change rather than the cause of it.
所以，实际上，无论你认为她出色还是糟糕都无关紧要。
So, actually, it doesn't matter whether you think she was brilliant or terrible.
因为当前关于COVID的争论之一是，它对英格兰北部的冲击远甚于南部，这反映了某种根深蒂固的趋势，而撒切尔夫人被归咎于此——重工业、矿业等的衰落。
Because one of one of the, one of the arguments about what's happening at the moment with COVID and the way that it's affecting the North Of England much worse than the South is that this reflects kind of deep deep deep rooted trends that that for which Mississauga is is held responsible, the kind of the the the destruction of heavy industry, mining, and so on.
你认为我们能否将八十年代的事件与当前COVID感染率之间建立关联？
Do you do you think that there is I mean, can we trace the threads of what happened in the eighties through to the incidence rates of infection and COVID?
还是说
Or is that or
这是
is that
这更多是一种政治判断而非历史判断？
does that remain a kind of political rather than historical judgment?
我认为
I think that
这实际上是个政治判断，汤姆。
is a political judgment, actually, Tom.
关于这点，我有两点想法。
And two things occurred to me about that.
首先，南北之间早已存在巨大分歧。
One is, first of all, there'd been a big divergence between North and South Right.
远在那之前就存在了。
Long before that.
我知道你是丹·杰克逊那本《诺森伯兰人》的忠实读者。
Mean, I know you're a big fan of that book by Dan Jackson, the Northumbrians.
是的。
Yes.
这类书籍确实生动展现了数百年来英格兰北部与南部体验的根本差异。
And that really I mean, you look at books like that, that really brings alive just how different the North the experience in the North Of England felt for hundreds of years from the experience in the South.
要知道，它们本就不相同。
You know, they're not.
他们早就是两个不同的国家了，远在撒切尔夫人出现之前
They were two nations, as it were, long before any Margaret Thatcher had
还只是Alderman Roberts眼中一闪而过的念头
been a a glint in Alderman Roberts' eye.
所以你的观点基本上是马克思主义的，认为这些都是根深蒂固的问题，是历史洪流中的巨浪，而像撒切尔夫人这样的人不过是浪尖上的泡沫
And so so your perspective is is basically the Marxist one, that these are are are deep rooted issues that that are you know, these these are the great surging waves of history, and that someone like missus Thatcher is just the kind of the the the foam on the crest of the wave.
这正是我的立场，汤姆
That is exactly my position, Tom.
我来给你举个例子
And I'll I'll I'll give you an example of that.
你提到了重工业的消亡
You talked about the death of heavy industry.
真的有人认为如果没有撒切尔夫人，每天还会有成千上万人下矿井挖煤吗？
Does anybody seriously think that without Margaret Thatcher, you know, tens, if not hundreds of thousands of people would would every morning be going down pits to dig for coal?
我是说，几乎所有其他欧洲国家的重工业也都消亡了
I mean, all that that heavy industry has died in every other Europe virtually every other European country.
所以认为这全是玛格丽特·撒切尔的过错，而且事情必然会发生——我是说，可能只是发生得更慢些。
So the idea that it's all Margaret Thatcher's fault and it would happen I mean, it might have happened more slowly.
可能争议会少一些。
It might have happened less contentiously.
可能——你知道，事情可能会有不同的发展，但基本走向仍会是一样的。
It might have have you know, things might have worked out differently, but the basic story would still have been the same.
所以从这个意义上说，是的，这确实有点马克思主义历史观的意味，不是吗？
So in that sense, yes, that is kind of Marxist history, isn't it?
巨大的历史浪潮诸如此类。
Great big forces and all the rest of it.
我在想撒切尔夫人是否会继续保持这种恶魔般的形象，或者——取决于你站在辩论的哪一方——英雄般的地位？
I I wonder whether missus Thatcher will continue to to hold this kind of demonic status or, you know, status of heroine depending on which side of the the debate you stand?
因为我记得去年——也许是前年？
Because I I I remember there was some was it last year, maybe the year before?
BBC曾播出过一部关于撒切尔夫人的精彩系列片，确实很棒。
There was a really excellent series on the BBC about missus Thatcher, which was Yeah.
汤姆，你提到这个我很高兴，因为我是那部剧集的顾问。
I'm so glad you mentioned that, Tom, because I was the consultant for series.
好的。
Okay.
呃，我想我...哦，多米尼克。
Well, it was I thought I oh, Dominic.
确实，那部剧集非常出色。
Well, it was it was it was really excellent.
我觉得...它完全没有旁白解说，对吧？
I think and I think it it it didn't have any commentary at all, did it?
它就是...
It was just
没有主持人那种。
kind No of presenter.
没有解说。
No commentary.
是的。
Yeah.
当时的影像资料和受访者。
Contemporary footage and and and interviewees.
我当时是和女儿一起看的，她那时大概16岁左右。
And I watched that with my daughter who must have been, I don't know, 16 at the time or something.
对这个主题完全一无所知。
Knew nothing about the subject at all.
她的视角非常像一个年轻女权主义者。
And her take on it was very much that of a kind of young feminist.
对。
That Yeah.
她看到的是一个女性战胜这些沙文主义恐龙的故事。
That she was watching a woman triumphing over over these kind of chauvinist dinosaurs.
那就是她的理解。
And that was that was her take.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为那个故事，那一面肯定会展现出来。
I think that story, that side of it will definitely come out.
你知道，你的人会把她看作一个被男性环绕的职业女性，而二十年前他们不会这样看待。
You know, your people will see her as a working woman surrounded by men in a way that they didn't.
你知道，二十年前他们看不到玛格丽特·撒切尔的女性特质。
You know, twenty years ago, they didn't see the femininity of of Margaret Thatcher.
甚至有人说她根本不算真正的女人，这种话现在没人会说了。
Or indeed, they said she's not really a woman at all, which nobody really would would say now.
我能感觉到，就在我说话时，制片人正不断发短信提醒我——她不喜欢女性，不为女性发声，诸如此类。
I can see that the even as I'm speaking, the producer is is throwing texts at me to say she didn't like women, she didn't champion women, and all this kind of thing.
但在这方面，玛格丽特·撒切尔其实是她那类女性的典型代表。
But in that respect, actually, Margaret Thatcher was typical of women of her type.
当时人们常谈论‘蜂后现象’——那些在六七十年代取得成就的女性，却没有提携后来者。
People used to talk at the time about queen bees, about women who had got ahead in the sixties and seventies and then didn't pull up other women after them.
从心理学角度来说，其实你多少能理解为什么有些女性会有这样的行为。
And psychologically, actually, you can sort of understand why some women behave like that.
她们和撒切尔夫人一样认为，我是靠自己的本事成功的。
They thought, like Margaret Thatcher thought, well, I've got ahead on my own merits.
凭什么要我推行针对其他女性的平权行动？
Why should I, you know, institute affirmative action for other women?
她们应该像我一样努力工作。
They should work just like I've worked.
那些率先取得成就的职业女性，与后来者之间始终存在这种紧张关系。
And there was always this tension between those women who'd been the first ones to get ahead, the kind of professional women, and then those who who came after them.
但你说得对。
But you're right.
我觉得年轻一代——我是说年轻人根本不会在意这些，对吧？
I think people will younger people I mean, younger people won't care, will they?
十年二十年后，他们还会在乎福克兰群岛和矿工罢工这些事吗？
In in ten or twenty years time, will they care about the Falklands and the minor strikes?
嗯，我想我女儿对这个故事的反应——完全不了解其背后的政治背景——是她再次感受到一种神话般的叙事弧线：一个女性从无名之辈崛起成为首相，这又让她与戴安娜产生了共鸣。
Well, I think I think I think that what what my daughter's response to just to this that that story, having no sense of the broader politics of it, was that there was a, again, a kind of mythic arc to the story of the woman who emerges from nowhere and and and becomes prime minister, which, again, aligns her with Diana.
有趣的是，我们确实有这两位近乎神话的人物，而且她们都是八十年代的女性。
And it's interesting that the two you know, we do have these two kind of mythic figures, and they're both women in the eighties.
我猜这就是《王冠》将要……
And I guess that that's what the the the crown will be will be
借题发挥的。
riffing off.
这就是全部意义所在，不是吗？
That's what it's all about, isn't it?
这一季完全是在利用这一点。是的。
This series is all trading on that that Yeah.
就是这种套路，对吧？
That business, isn't it?
我是说，但这确实表明历史被理解和消费的一个关键方式就是通过神话。
I mean But but but it does suggest that that a crucial aspect of how history is understood and in a sense consumed is a myth.
这些神话特质本身具有历史意义。
The the the mythic qualities are are themselves of historic significance.
完全正确，汤姆。
That's absolutely right, Tom.
而且我认为你所说的‘神话特质具有历史意义’这一点也说得对，因为玛格丽特·撒切尔——我是说，她被观众视为某种形象，要么是库伊拉·德·维尔，是的。
And I think your where you say the the mythic qualities are of historic significance, that seems to me right too, because you Margaret Thatcher, I mean, she was consumed, as it were, by the audience as a sort of she's either Cruella de Vil and Yeah.
要么她是——人们怎么称呼她来着？
Or she's she's the people what do they call her?
芬奇利的凯瑟琳大帝。
The Catherine the Great of Finchley.
有人这么称呼她。
He called her.
是的。
Yes.
或者说，你知道，她的崇拜者将她视为布狄卡、不列颠尼亚、伊丽莎白一世。
Or she's you know, her her admirers see her as Boudicca, as Britannia, as Elizabeth the first.
是的。
Yeah.
所以这里存在着这种持续的神话——关于被男性环绕的尊贵女性、爱国女性的神话。
So there there is there are these there's this constant myth of the the regal woman, of the patriotic woman surrounded by men.
还有女巫。
And the witch.
没错。
Yeah.
以及女巫。
And the witch.
而她扮演哪个角色取决于你的政治立场。
And she which part you think she plays depends on your politics.
但人们总是把她套进这类神话角色里，不是吗？
But people always put her into these sort of mythic roles, don't they?
我是说，没人会单纯认为她只是个普通政客。
I mean, nobody just says she's a politician like any other.
她和其他职业女性没什么两样。
She's a working woman like any other.
人们谈论她时几乎把她神化了，就像谈论伊丽莎白一世、戴安娜或布狄卡那样。
They talk about her almost as this superhuman, you know, on the same level that they talk about Elizabeth the first or or or Diana or Boudin.
嗯，戴安娜，因为戴安娜同样让民众意见两极分化。
Well, Diana, because Diana likewise was similarly divided people.
你知道，她是民众心中的女王吗？
You know, was she the queen of people's hearts?
还是说，她只是个戏剧化又缺乏主见的人？
Or was she, you know, histrionic and and and lacking backbone?
而且，国民在这个问题上也存在分歧。
And, again, the country was kind of divided on that.
但我们不会这样评价男性。
We don't really do that with men, though.
确实不会。
No.
我是说没有。
I mean No.
也许亨利八世算一个，但不多见。
Maybe Henry the eighth, but not many.
我们很少会用这种二元对立的方式谈论男性。
There aren't many men that we talk about in the same sort of dualistic way.
是啊。
Yeah.
我想我们已经没话题可聊了。
We've run out of things to talk about, I think.
我们是不是已经把整个八十年代的话题都聊完了？
I think have we have we we just have we've have we exhausted the whole of the the whole of eighties?
你知道现在在播什么吗？
Do know what's on?
可聊的太多了。
There's so much.
我们没谈到托尼·本。
We didn't talk about Tony Ben.
我们没谈到鲍比·桑兹、肯·利文斯顿，但这意味着几个月后我们还得再做一期关于1981年的播客。
We didn't talk about Bobby Sands, Ken Livingston, but that just means we'll have to have another podcast all about 1981 in a few months'
哦，告诉你，你还没提到杜兰杜兰乐队和西蒙·勒邦呢。
Oh, tell you what, you haven't what you haven't mentioned is is Duran Duran and Simon LeBron.
还有不。
And No.
那那那是你整本撒切尔时期著作中我最喜欢的引语，来自
The the the fit my favorite quote in your entire book on on the Thatcher period From
整整七千页的内容。
all 7,000 pages.
其实因为我为这次讨论做了准备，我把它带在身边了。
Which actually because I was swatting for this, I've I've got it here.
是啊。
Yeah.
这里指的是《蛇之联盟》和《饿狼般饥渴》。
And this is with reference to union of the snake and hungry like the wolf.
西蒙·勒布朗说过：‘我一直喜欢像T·S·艾略特那样有点晦涩的诗人，这确实是我歌词风格的一部分。’
Simon LeBron said, I've always liked poets like TS Eliot who are a little bit obscure, and that's definitely part of my style, lyrically.
就是这样。
So there you go.
《荒原》本可以成为
The wasteland could have been a
《地球》与《荒原》。
Planet Earth and the wasteland.
就是这样。
There we go.
没错。
Yeah.
摇滚的证据，而你了解那条蛇。
Proof Rock and you knew the snake.
是的。
Yes.
所以这档播客确实触及了其他节目未能覆盖的领域。
So this this really is the the the podcast that that reaches the parts that other parts don't.
我们每周都应该引用杜兰杜兰乐队的内容，你觉得呢，汤姆？
We should do have a Duran Duran reference every week, don't you, Tom?
确实是个挑战。
Certainly a challenge.
然后我们可以接着讨论杰出的芭蕾舞和
Then we can move on to stand out ballet and
是啊。
Yeah.
嗯，对，新浪漫主义。
Well, yes, a new romantics.
我们会尽量每周引用一句新浪漫主义的歌词。
We'll try and quote a a new romantics lyric every every week.
这将是个有趣的挑战。
That would be an interesting challenge.
说到每周，我想这周该告一段落了。
And talking of every week, I think it's time to close off for this week.
我们下周再见。
We'll be back next week.
多米尼克，你还有什么要补充的吗？
Dominic, you got anything else to add?
有很多，但时间不够了，我可能只能放弃了。
Lots, but we don't have time, so I'll probably have to just forego it.
希望大家喜欢，我们每周一都会更新，对吧？
But hope you've all enjoyed it, and we're gonna be out every Monday, aren't we?
周一早上见，汤姆？
Monday morning, Tom?
好的。
Yeah.
周一早上。
Monday morning.
是啊。
Yeah.
计划是这样的。
That's the plan.
所以请务必订阅、评分并留下评论。
So please do subscribe and rate and review.
不过嘛，显然只有好评才需要写评论。
But any well, only review it if if it's a positive review, obviously.
对。
Yes.
没错。
Yeah.
那些差评就直接发给汤姆吧。
Just send those negative reviews directly to Tom.
抱歉。
Sorry.
好的。
Yeah.
有任何问题、想法或评论，欢迎随时分享。
And and any questions, any thoughts, any comments, do contribute.
我们的邮箱是historypod@gmail.com。
The rest is historypod@gmail.com.
邮箱是historypod@gmail.com。
Rest is historypod@gmail.com.
这就是联系我们方式，你也可以在Twitter上给我们留言，我们下周再见。
That's how to, contact us, or you can, message us on Twitter, and we will be back next week.
再见。
Bye bye.
感谢收听《历史的余韵》。
Thanks for listening to the Rest is History'.
如需获取额外剧集、抢先内容、无广告收听及加入我们的聊天社区，请登录restishistorypod.com。
For bonus episodes, early access, ad free listening and access to our chat community, please sign up at restishistorypod.com.
就是restishistorypod.com。
That's restishistorypod.com.
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