6. 特洛伊

把他扔下悬崖。

Threw him off the rock.

处死了他。

Had him killed.

别别作弊，如果你去的是凯撒开的酒馆。

Don't don't cheat if you go to a pub because he's run by a Caesar.

总之，我们还是回到被问到的问题上来吧。

Anyway, let's come back to the questions that we've been asked.

不过，汤姆，我觉得我们应该先休息一下。

But, Tom, I think we should take a

先休息一下。

break first.

但好吧。

But Okay.

嗯，听着。

Well, listen.

在我们休息之前

Before we take

休息前，我要给你读一下卡尔·约翰的问题，你可以先思考一下，因为我要让你回答这个问题。

the break, I'm gonna read you Carl Johan's or Johann's question, and we can have a you can have a ponder because I'm gonna put you have to answer this.

他问：哪场战争或事件对现代西方的重要性，最接近特洛伊战争对古希腊的意义？

What war or event, he asks, comes closest to being of similar significance to the modern West as Troy was to the Greeks?

好问题。

Good question.

我们休息一下吧。

Let's have a break.

欢迎回来，各位听众，这里是《余下皆历史》节目。

Welcome back, everybody, to The Rest is History.

在休息前，汤姆向我提出了卡尔·约翰的问题：哪场战争对现代西方的重要性堪比特洛伊战争之于希腊人？

Just before the break, Tom asked me Karl Johan's question, which is what war comes close to being of similar significance to the modern West as Troy was to the Greeks?

在我看来，汤姆，这个问题的明显答案——简直显而易见的答案——就是第二次世界大战。

It seems to me, Tom, that the obvious answer to that is, blatantly obvious answer is World War II.

我是说，第二次世界大战是那种萦绕在西方心理中，作为人类对他人人道主义终极象征的事件。

I mean, World War II is the event that sort of lingers in the Western psyche as the ultimate symbol of man's humanity to man.

这是终极的道德寓言。

It's the ultimate morality tale.

我们构建世界观的方式围绕着纳粹的邪恶、抵抗他们的英雄主义、绥靖政策的危险，诸如此类的内容。

We structure the way we think about the world around the evil of the Nazis, the heroism, of standing up to them, the dangers of appeasement, all that kind of stuff.

你不觉得

Don't you think that

第二次世界大战基本上就是我们的特洛伊战争，我们的神话故事吗？

the Second World War is basically our Trojan War, our mythic story?

在神话层面上确实如此，但我认为还掺杂了一战的因素。

I on the level of myth, but I think there's also a seasoning of the First World War.

因为特洛伊战争的关键在于它毫无意义。

Because the the thing about the Trojan War is that it's pointless.

所以如果你仔细想想，一战的神话就在于——你知道这一切究竟为了什么？

So if you think of it, the the the myth of the First World War is that it's, you know what was it all for?

这一切都是徒劳的。

It was all fought in vain.

是啊。

Yeah.

人们互相残杀

People slaughtering each

然后抢劫。

other and mug.

还有愚蠢的争斗。

And bupi cock.

这基本上就是特洛伊战争的全部。

That's that's that's pretty much what the Trojan War is.

我的意思是，它极具破坏性，最终却一无所获。

I mean, it it's ruinous and it's destructive, and nothing really comes of it.

但等等。

But hold on.

希腊人当时可不是这么想的。

The the Greeks didn't think about it that way.

他们难道不觉得这很英勇、很鼓舞人心吗？

Didn't they didn't they find it heroic and inspiring?

我是说，当亚历山大赤身裸体绕着阿喀琉斯的坟墓奔跑时，他想的可不是'这完全是浪费时间'，也不是'这就是青铜时代的道格拉斯·黑格'。

I mean, when Alexander runs runs around the tomb of Achilles naked, he's not thinking, you know, he's not thinking, oh, this was a complete waste of time, and this is the sort of Douglas Haig of the of the Bronze Age.

阿喀琉斯之所以成为伟大的英雄，是因为他选择了短暂的生命与永恒的荣耀，而非长寿与默默无闻。

Well, Achilles becomes a great hero because he chooses a short life, and eternal fame over a long life and obscurity.

但他有点像鲁珀特·布鲁克之类的？

But So he's like Rupert Brooke or something?

是的。

Yeah.

但在续集《奥德赛》中，我们在冥界遇到了阿喀琉斯的鬼魂，他说那太可怕了。

But in the sequel, The Odyssey, we meet the ghost of Achilles in the underworld, and he says it's terrible.

我是说，你知道，我我我犯了个可怕的错误。

I mean, you know, I I I made a terrible mistake.

我宁愿当个在田间劳作的奴隶，也不愿做冥界的君王。

I'd much rather be a kind of slave working the land than than be a king in the underworld.

我真的需要...是的。

I really need to Yeah.

我认为，如果你看看希腊悲剧作家，雅典的悲剧作家，埃斯库罗斯，其中一位曾说过，希腊悲剧本质上是从荷马史诗盛宴中截取的片段，它们极其阴郁。

And I think and and if you look at, the Greek tragedians, the Athenian tragedians, and Aeschylus, one of them said that, you know, basically, Greek tragedy is just kind of cuts from the great feast of Homer, They are incredibly bleak.

悲剧世界，那些毫无意义地发生的可怕事件，完全是对特洛伊战争痛苦无谓本质的一种演绎。

The the the tragic world, the way in which terrible things happen for for and don't really serve a purpose, is absolutely a kind of riff on the the idea of the Trojan War as being kind of agonizingly pointless.

我想，如果把第一次世界大战和第二次世界大战融合起来，那种混合体大概能与之相仿。

And I I think I think that, you know, if you so if you fuse the First World War with the Second World War, the mix of that would give you something approximating it.

现在制片人一直在你说话时用问题烦我，不是他没在听你讲，汤姆，但他一直在给我发关于特洛伊的海伦的问题。

Now the the producer has been pestering me with questions while you've been talking, not that he wasn't listening to you, Tom, but he's just been texting me with questions about Helen of Troy.

这难道只是为了一个美丽女人而打的仗吗？

Was this just a fight about a beautiful woman?

跟我们说说这个女人，诸如此类的事情。

Tell us about the woman, all this kind of stuff.

所以是的，这很有趣，不是吗？

So yes, that's interesting, isn't it?

这一切都是因为一个女人？

That it's all about a woman?

我是说，很少有真正的战争是由女性引发的，或者像这场战争一样以女性为核心。

Mean, aren't many real wars that are either generated by women or that have women at their absolute center as this does.

嗯，我想再次回到希罗多德的观点，历史始于不同民族互相掠夺、互相侵犯对方女性的记载。

Well, I think, again, to go back to Herodotus, the history begins with an account of different people raping each other, raping each other's women.

我认为在某种程度上令人不安的是，战争的历史往往也是强奸的历史。

And and I think there is a kind of to a disturbing degree, there is a sense that the history of war is also the history of rape.

确实如此。

So Yeah.

从这个角度来看，海伦被掳走的故事确实包含某种黑暗的真相。

To that extent, there is a kind of, you know, a a dark truth to the story of of Helen's abduction.

但你知道吗，从更浪漫的角度来说，我们其实收到了朱利安·列侬提出的一个很好的问题：说到海伦，历史上还有哪些美人——特别是那些美貌具有历史意义、改变了历史进程的人物？

But, you know, in the kind of the more romantic sense of it, we do actually have a a very good question from Julian Lennox who says, speaking of Helen, who are other historically beautiful people, specifically people whose beauty had historical significance as in it changed the course of history?

那么，你知道，我们是否知道有哪些女性因其美貌而改变了历史进程？

So, you know, do we do we have are there women whose beauty was such that it changed the course of history?

你觉得

What do

怎么样？

you think?

我认为这是个非常好的问题。

I think that's a I think that's a great question.

他实际上说的是人，汤米。

He actually said people, Tommy.

并没有特指女性。

Didn't say women.

是啊。

Yeah.

确实。

Did.

我这是性别歧视了。

I'm being sexist.

你暴露了你的——我确实是。

You've revealed your I'm being Yes.

这就是男性凝视在作祟。

That's the male gaze in action.

是。

Is.

这真是个糟糕的时刻。

This is a terrible moment.

我想你被取消资格只是时间问题了。

I think your cancellation is surely only moments away.

所以我觉得这是个有趣的问题。

So I'd say it's an interesting one.

是女性本身还是性感特质？

Is it women or is it sexiness?

因为性感显然很重要。

Because sexiness obviously does matter.

而我总会想到的例子就是安妮·博林。

And the example I always think of is Anne Boleyn.

哦，很好。

Oh, good.

是的。

Yes.

关于安妮·博林有趣的是，她并不符合传统审美。

So the funny thing about Anne Boleyn is she's not conventionally attractive.

当时的人们，那些都铎宫廷的大使们写信回去说，她面色灰黄，有种狐狸般的狡黠，你知道，她并不漂亮。

People at the time, all these sort of ambassadors at the Tudor court would write back and they would say, oh, she's sallow faced, she's she's sort of vulpine, you know, she's not attractive.

她有十一根手指，对吧？

She had eleven fingers, didn't she?

而且，关于手指还有个典故。

And she well, there was this game about the finger as well.

我想我们或许应该，嗯，略过这个话题。

I think we should probably, yeah, gloss over that.

是我说的吗？

Was that me?

对，可能是你说的。

Yeah, maybe it was.

也许她能把这根多余的手指发挥出非常强大的作用呢？

Maybe she was able to put this extra finger to very potent use, you know?

显然，安·博林对亨利八世有着极强的掌控力，他完全为她着迷。

So, Amblyen has this hold over Henry VIII clearly, and he's obsessed with her.

若非如此，若非她对新兴福音派思想——那些批判天主教会的新思潮感兴趣，英格兰很可能会出现新教运动，但国王会将其镇压，使英格兰像法国一样保持天主教国家地位。

And, had it not been for that, by the fact that she was interested in the kind of new evangelical ideas, the new kind of ideas critical of Catholic church, it is perfectly plausible that England, there would have been a Protestant movement, but the King would have fought it off and that England would have remained a Catholic country as France did.

因此可以说，像安·博林这样的个体，其个人魅力确实能成为重大结构性文化变革的关键。

So you can say with somebody like Anne Boleyn, one individual and one individual's sexual allure does hold the key to a a massive structural cultural change.

所以说她就是那张导致上千座修道院被解散的面孔。

So she's the face that launched a thousand monasteries being dissolved.

一千本圣经。

A thousand bibles.

是啊。

Yeah.

一千本圣经。

A thousand bibles.

那克娄巴特拉呢？

What about Cleopatra?

克娄巴特拉并不太

Cleopatra is not very

嗯，是的。

Well, yes.

我是说，克娄巴特拉当然一直被假定为拥有惊人的美貌。

I mean, Cleopatra is, of course, is is always presumed to have been incredibly beautiful.

你并不美。

You're not beautiful.

而且是个伟大的诱惑者。

And a great seduct.

嗯，如果你看她的硬币肖像，她看起来并不特别美丽。

Well, if you look at her coins, she doesn't look particularly beautiful.

我认为性并非她与那些同床共枕的男人交易的必要条件。

And I think that that that sex wasn't necessarily what she was offering the men she slept with.

因为基本上，我们只知道她与两个男人发生过关系，尤利乌斯·凯撒和马克·安东尼。

Because, basically, we only know that she slept with two men, Julius Caesar and Mark Antony.

而这两个男人恰好是当时地中海地区最有权势的人物。

And both of those men happened to be the most powerful men in the Mediterranean at the time.

所以我认为我们甚至可以...甚至在安东尼死后，克里奥帕特拉还试图勾引未来的奥古斯都屋大维。

So I think we can and and and even when Antony dies, Cleopatra then makes pitch at at Octavian who will the future Augustus.

那么如果梅拉尼娅·特朗普改投乔·拜登怀抱，我们就知道她当初看上唐纳德并非因为他的外貌。

So So if Melania Trump moves on to Joe Biden, we'll know that she wasn't interested in Donald for his looks.

是的。

Yes.

我认为这是一个合理的推测。

I think that that would that would be a a reasonable reasonable presumption.

但当然，在克利奥帕特拉被描绘成一种致命诱惑者的方式中，其中蕴含着海伦的影子，即美丽女子的爱对英雄乃至城市具有毁灭性的观念。

But, of course, in in the way that Cleopatra is is portrayed as a kind of fatal seductress, there is something there of of Helen, the idea that, the the the love of a beautiful woman can be destructive for heroes and indeed for cities.

所以，是的，这绝对是其中的一部分。

So, yeah, that's absolutely part of it.

现在我们还有很多问题要讨论，不是吗？

Now do we have, we have lots more questions, don't we?

再给我一个问题。

Give give me another question.

那乔什·哈罗德·威尔逊呢？

What about Josh Harold Wilson?

我在想是否有关联，但乔什·哈罗德·威尔逊问：电影作为探索历史的工具有用吗？它造成的伤害是否大于好处？

I wonder if there's any relation to but Josh Harold Wilson says, is film film a useful tool for exploring history, does it do more damage than good?

嗯，这与《王冠》非常应景，不是吗？

Well, that's very, topical with The Crown, isn't it?

你看过那部特洛伊的电影吧

So the film of Troy, you've seen the film

布拉德·皮特演的那部特洛伊？

of Troy, the Brad Pitt film?

这是有史以来最糟糕的古装电影

It's the worst film about the ancient world ever made.

这话可说得够重的

That's a big claim.

比《埃及艳后》还差吗？

Worse than Cleopatra?

《埃及艳后》很棒啊

Cleopatra's great.

不过那片长得要命

It's very long, though.

我记得非常非常无聊

Very very boring, as I remember.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

《特洛伊》是有史以来最糟糕的电影，因为它摒弃了诸神的存在。

Three Troy is is the worst film ever made because it gets rid of the gods.

因此，它抛弃了所有让荷马史诗有趣的东西。

And therefore, it gets rid of everything that makes Homer interesting.

因为没有诸神，它就变得相当乏味。

Because without the gods, it becomes quite dull.

更重要的是，他们试图让《特洛伊》显得有历史依据。

And more than that, what they're trying to do with Troy is to make it, historically grounded.

关键在于，无论你对特洛伊神话这棵参天大树所源自的微小事实种子有何看法——它根本就没发生过。

And the whole point is that that whatever you may think about the kind of the the the tiny acorn of fact that gives rise to the great oak of of the Trojan myth, it didn't happen.

事情并不像荷马描述的那样发生过。

It didn't happen as Homer portrays it.

根本不存在阿喀琉斯这个人。

There was no Achilles.

也没有海伦这个人。

There was no Helen.

更没有特洛伊木马这回事。

There was no Trojan horse.

所以这些都是神话。

So it's all myth.

试图把它当作真实历史来呈现，完全是白费力气。

So the very attempt to try and portray it as it did is is a spectacular waste of energy and effort.

这简直糟糕透顶。

It's it's truly terrible.

但它会造成什么危害吗？

But does it do any, any harm?

我不这么认为。

I don't think so.

不认为它会造成任何损害。

Don't think it does any damage.

大概吧，我想你

Probably well, I suppose you

可以说宣传电影确实有害，不是吗？

can argue that films as propaganda do harm, don't they?

它们会进入人们的集体想象，如果它们宣扬的是差异、仇恨这类东西的话。

They enter into the collective imagination of people, if what they are promoting is difference, hatred, all this stuff.

一个有趣的对立面是《300勇士》，这也是一部关于古希腊的电影，讲述了斯巴达人在温泉关的故事。

Was an interesting counterpoint would be 300, which is also, a film about, ancient Greece and tells the story of the the Spartans at Thermopylae.

是的。

Yeah.

而我认为那是对古代世界的精彩描绘，因为它非常准确地将斯巴达人描绘成原始纳粹、原始法西斯分子，他们本质上就是如此。

And that, I think, is a a brilliant portrayal of the ancient world because it very accurately portrays the Spartans as proto Nazis, as proto fascists, which is basically what they were.

斯巴达人是纳粹的重要灵感来源。

The Spartans were a huge inspiration to the Nazis.

《300勇士》令人不安的一点在于，它没有提供我们期待的那种道德观。

And one of the things that's that's unsettling about 300 is that it doesn't serve up the the kind of morality that we expect.

强者恒强，弱者恒弱，而弱者因软弱而可鄙。

The strong are strong, the weak are weak, and the weak are contemptible for being weak.

这确实令人不安，但我想也非常非常准确。

And I I it's it's very unsettling, but I think also very, very accurate.

但你知道，《300勇士》因此在某些右翼边缘群体中变得非常流行。

But there's a you know, 300 has become very popular with the kind of more right wing fringes for that reason.

所以可以说这部电影确实造成了伤害。

So it could be argued that that that's done damage.

这很有趣，不是

That is interesting, isn't

吗？

it?

既然我们谈到了《300勇士》以及如何看待特洛伊战争的话题，现代文明对特洛伊的认知，我们不妨深入聊聊这个。

Let's talk a bit about since you've we've got onto 300 and all this stuff about how we see the Trojan War, how modern societies have seen the Trojan.

让我一直很着迷的是，蒙茅斯的杰弗里以及中世纪英国那些英格兰和威尔士作家们，他们痴迷于我们是特洛伊人后裔这个想法。

So something that's always fascinated me is the fact that Geoffrey of Monmouth and sort of medieval British, sort of English and Welsh writers were fascinated by this idea that we are descended from the Trojans.

有个叫布鲁图斯的人，他，与传说中建立罗马的埃涅阿斯有关系。

There was a fellow called Brutus, he was related to Aeneas who supposedly founded Rome.

布鲁图斯

That Brutus basically sails across the sea with a load of Trojan refugees and founds Britannia, which is named after him.

布鲁图斯基本上就是带着一群特洛伊难民横渡大海，建立了不列颠尼亚，并以他的名字命名。

And he separates his kingdom into three parts, England, Scotland and Wales, which he gives to his three sons.

他将权力分成三部分，英格兰、苏格兰和威尔士，分别给予他的三个儿子。

And he founds a city called New Troy, which becomes London and all this sort of stuff.

他问道。

What's all that about?

而你呢？你的工作进展如何？

And the question that puzzles me is why would you empathize with the Trojans who are losers rather than the Greeks who are the winners?

因为特洛伊人最终才是赢家。

Because the Trojans are ultimately the winners.

因为你提到的埃涅阿斯，他是阿芙罗狄忒之子，特洛伊公主的表亲。

Because Aeneas, who you mentioned, who is the son of Aphrodite, cousin of of the princess of Troy.

他逃离了特洛伊。

He escapes Troy.

据说他来到意大利，他的后裔建立了罗马。

Supposedly, he he comes to Italy, and his descendants found Rome.

所以罗马人将自己与特洛伊人视为一体。

So the Romans identify themselves with the Trojans.

因此如果你认同特洛伊人，也就等同于认同罗马人。

So if you identify yourself with the Trojans, you're also identifying yourself with the Romans.

那么罗马人为何要这么做？是因为希腊人是他们的对手，所以他们需要一个不同的起源故事吗？

And So but why did the Romans do it, Why did the Romans is it because the Greeks were their rivals and they needed a sort of alternative origin story?

他们不能直接采用希腊的起源故事。

They couldn't just take a Greek origin story.

因为特洛伊战争和荷马，你知道，荷马是享有盛誉的诗人，而你也想沾点光。

Because the Trojan War and Homer you know, Homer is is is the prestige poet, and you want a bit of it.

如果你能将自己与那个故事联系起来，那么你某种程度上就参与其中了。

And if you can identify yourself with that story, then you're kind of joining in with it.

而且，这也为罗马人征服希腊提供了理由。

And, also, it provides a rationale for the for the Romans to go and conquer Greece.

没错。

Right.

因为他们可以说是在为特洛伊人复仇。

Because they can say that they're taking vengeance for the for the Trojans.

这也是穆罕默德二世——攻陷君士坦丁堡的奥斯曼统治者——大做文章的一点。

And that's something that Mehmed the second, the the Ottoman who captures Constantinople, he makes great play with this as well.

他声称自己作为特洛伊后裔统治着这里，通过占领君士坦丁堡，他是在为特洛伊的陷落复仇。

He's saying that he is ruling as the heir of the Trojans, That, by capturing Constantinople, he's taking vengeance for the sack of Troy.

现代土耳其人还有这么想的吗？

And do any modern Turks think this?

我想应该没有吧。

Does I don't think so.

埃尔多安是阿喀琉斯的继承人还是...抱歉。

Erdogan is the heir of Achilles or the heir of sorry.

继承人

The heir

赫克托尔的。

of Hector.

记得第二位就拥有这个头衔。

Remember the second had it.

他的母亲是希腊人，所以他某种程度上融入了那个文化。

His his mother was Greek, so he he was kind of plugged into that culture.

他对此心知肚明。

He was he was aware of it.

我的意思是，这显然更偏向欧洲传统。

I mean, it's not obviously, it's much more of a a a European thing.

但在罗马帝国崩溃后的中世纪欧洲早期，当人们开始寻找自我认同时，他们会环顾四周。

But in the in the wake of the the collapse of of the Roman Empire in early medieval Europe, it's a way for people, as they start to get a sense of their own identity, they look around.

通过将自己与希腊神话、罗马历史联系起来，你能获得一种真实的威望感。

And and by plugging yourself into, Greek mythology, Roman history, you're giving yourself a kind of real sense of prestige.

而声称自己是特洛伊人的后裔，这种说法更是让这种威望倍增。

And to and to say that you're descended from the Trojans, I mean, that, you know, kind of multiplies it.

关于不列颠尼亚和布鲁图斯来到不列颠的伟大之处在于，据说那里曾是巨人之地。

And the great thing about, about Britannia and Brutus coming to to Britain is that, Britain was supposedly a land of giants.

我在报纸上看到

And I I saw in the paper

确实如此。

It is.

今天我在报纸上看到鲍里斯·约翰逊说他现在致力于组建一个'巨人内阁'。

I saw in the paper today that that Boris Johnson was saying that he's now committed to having a cabinet of giants.

是啊。

Yeah.

据说布鲁图斯与两个名叫高格和马格的巨人战斗，能看到他们进入内阁就太棒了。

So Brutus supposedly fights two two giants called Gorg and Magog, And it would it would be great to see them in the cabinet.

是啊。

Yeah.

代替加文·威廉姆森之类的人。

In place of Gavin Williamson or somebody.

你不觉得他是个特洛伊式的人物吧。

You don't think he's a Trojan figure.

我觉得让高格当教育大臣会有趣得多。

I think Gorg is Secretary of State for Education would be a lot more fun.

但这事挺有意思，不是吗？

But it's a funny thing, isn't it?

这个关于你同情谁的问题。

This question about who you empathize with.

前几天晚上我给我儿子读这个故事时问他，你希望谁赢？

So when I was reading it to my son the other night, said, who do you want to win?

你希望谁赢？他知道特洛伊人会输，因为似乎所有人都知道他们会输。

Who do you And he knows the Trojans lose because kind of everybody seems to just know that they lose.

他说，哦，我真的很喜欢特洛伊人。

And he said, Oh, well, I really like the Trojans.

我喜欢赫克托尔。

I like Hector.

我知道他的结局不太好。

I know it doesn't end well for him.

我说这很有趣，因为我八岁时也喜欢赫克托尔。

And I said, that's funny, because I liked Hector when I was eight.

我在想，我们是否因为被预设的观念影响，而与前辈们有着不同的想法。

And I wonder whether we think differently than our predecessors might have done because we are programmed.

这是送给你的基督教礼物。

This is a gift to you with your Christianity.

我们是否被预设为会为弱者加油。

Whether we are programmed to cheer for the underdog.

我们都知道特洛伊人会输。

We know the Trojans lose.

所以我们认为他们是好人。

So we think they're the good guys.

而那些行为恶劣的希腊人，为女奴争吵不休、哭哭啼啼，表现得如此荒谬、爱发牢骚又玻璃心，现在谁会同情他们呢？

And the Greeks who behave so badly squabbling about slave girls and crying and behaving in this sort of ludicrous, sort of whingy, snowflakey way, who empathizes with them now?

嗯，阿喀琉斯是伟大的英雄。

Well, Achilles is the great hero.

可以说，他像狼一样饥渴。

He is, you could say, hungry like the wolf.

说得好，汤姆。

Very good, Tom.

太有趣了。

That's so funny.

所以我们承诺每周都会创作新的浪漫歌词。

So we pledge that we get a new romantic lyric in every weekend.

他们进球了，我喜欢。

They're back of the net there, I like.

在我得到那个之前，我还向餐桌献唱了一段男高音。

And I did a tenor to the table before I got that one.

所以阿喀琉斯阿喀琉斯是是是伟大的英雄。

So Achilles Achilles is the the the great hero.

他之所以是伟大的英雄，主要是因为他最擅长杀人。

And he's a great hero because he's basically the best at killing people.

这确实让我们感到恐惧，我想。

And that does seem frightening to us, I think.

我是说，阿喀琉斯是个令人恐惧的人物。

I mean, Achilles is a frightening figure.

但你说得对。

But you're right.

而且，你知道，你你提到了亚历山大。

And, you know, you you mentioned Alexander.

亚历山大完全以阿喀琉斯为榜样，他也杀了许多人。

Alexander completely models himself on on Achilles, and Alexander kills a lot of people as well.

我认为你是对的。

And I think you're right.

我想他有他的观点

I think it is He's got view

为了杀戮，汤姆。

to a kill, Tom.

他怀有杀戮的意图。

He's got a view to a kill.

我认为我们现在的感受力深受基督教影响。

I think I think that our sensibilities are incredibly Christian now.

因此我们被设定为认同那些受苦者、受害者、沦为奴隶的人，而非奴役他人者。

And so we are kind of programmed to identify with those who suffer, those who who are the victims, those who become the slaves rather than those who do the slaving.

但《伊利亚特》最初的听众，那些听诗人们反复讲述这些故事的人，他们可能不会有这种想法。

But the initial consumers of the Iliad, the people who listen to the poets tell and retell these stories, they presumably wouldn't have thought that.

他们会认为这些人就是失败者，因此活该落得如此下场。

They'd have just thought these people are losers, therefore, they got what was coming to them.

有些人这么想，但也有人不这么认为。

Some did, but but some didn't.

所以，这又是希腊悲剧中一个重大主题——失败者的苦难。

So, again, this is massive theme in in Greek tragedy is the suffering of the losers.

从某种角度说，欧里庇得斯的《特洛伊妇女》堪称史上最阴郁的文学作品之一，这部作品创作于伯罗奔尼撒战争背景下——那场最终以雅典惨败告终的雅典与斯巴达大战。

And in a way, the kind of know, the one of the the bleakest works of literature ever written is Euripides' Trojan Women, which he's writing against the backdrop of the Peloponnesian War, the great war between Athens and Sparta, which will actually end with with with the the defeat of Athens.

雅典人像特洛伊人那样洗劫了许多城市，而欧里庇得斯描绘了特洛伊城陷落后，王后和公主们被集中起来即将沦为奴隶的场景。

But the Athenians are sacking a lot of cities as the Trojans do, And Euripides gives this portrayal of the the queens and the princesses of Troy being rounded up after the sack of the city, about to be led off into slavery.

这是对战争受害者境遇令人心碎的写照。

And it's a devastating portrait of what it means to be a victim in a war.

其震撼力恰恰在于作品中没有任何真正的救赎意味。

And the power of it is precisely that the there's that there's there there is no real kind of redemptive quality to it.

基督教带给我们的核心观念是：苦难中蕴含着救赎的可能。

The the key thing that you get from Christianity is the the idea that there is a redemptive quality in in suffering.

如果将希腊神话中特洛伊的陷落作为对比

So if you counterpoint the sack of Troy in Greek myth Yeah.

与《旧约》中耶路撒冷的陷落相比，你知道，这很可怕

To the sack of Jerusalem in the Old Testament, It you know, it's it's terrible.

这是毁灭性的

It's devastating.

但犹太人坚信，这最终彰显了上帝的力量

But the conviction that the the the Jews hold to is that, ultimately, it's expressive of God's power.

因此，你知道，这其中是有目的的

And so, therefore, it is you know, there is a purpose to it.

而在欧里庇得斯的作品中，这种意义被彻底抽离

What you get in Euripides is absolutely bled of any sense of that.

这就是纯粹的，你知道，可怕的灾难

This is just this is just, you know, terrible stuff Yeah.

所以这种欧里庇得斯式的观点在海湾战争及其余波中被大量重提

And so and so it was that kind of Euripidean take was resurrected an awful lot during the the the Gulf War and the aftermath.

所以那时候几乎不可能走进剧院而不看到一出希腊悲剧，其中希腊人扮演着，你知道的，联军部队的角色。

So it was almost impossible to go to a theater and not see a Greek tragedy in which the the Greeks were the, you know, the the coalition forces and Yeah.

按照传统，我们以汤姆十分钟的基督教讲座结束本期播客，讲述它如何改变现代世界，以及为什么大家都该去买他的书——我相信你们早就人手一本了。

Well, as is traditional, we end the podcast with a ten minute lecture from Tom about Christianity's, how it's changed the modern world and how everybody should go and buy his book, which I'm sure you already have.

汤姆，我想我们时间差不多了。

I think we've pretty much run out of time, Tom.

不过我觉得这次内容足够丰富，我们可以在这个系列后续再回到特洛伊和特洛伊战争的话题——取决于这个系列会做多久。

But I think there's enough in this for us to come back to Troy and the Trojan War later on in the series, depending on how long the series runs.

因为我们其实还有大量问题没来得及讨论。

Because there's tons of questions that we actually didn't get to.

我对所有提问者深感抱歉，但总有一天我们可能会回答你们的问题。

And I am so sorry to all those people, but we will get to your question one day, possibly.

下周我们将继续在历史的长廊中漫游。

So we'll be back next week with more meanderings down the lanes of history.

请订阅、评分并留言——当然，前提是你喜欢我们。

Please subscribe, rate and review, but obviously only if you like us.

这确实至关重要。

It does make all the difference.

也请通过Twitter联系我们，我们的账号是theresthistory，或者你也可以找Hollandtom或dcsandbrook。

And please do get in touch with us on Twitter, we are theresthistory, so no is, or you can also use Hollandtom or dcsandbrook.

就这样吧。

And that's it.

暂时先到这里，再见。

Goodbye for now.

感谢收听。

Thanks for listening.

非常感谢。

Thanks a lot.

再见。

Bye.

感谢收听《历史的余韵》。

Thanks for listening to the rest is history.

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网址是restishistorypod.com。

That's restishistorypod.com.