600. 查塔姆大街

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Thank you for listening to the rest is history. For weekly bonus episodes, ad free listening, early access to series, and membership of our much loved chat community, go to therestishistory.com and join the club. That is therestishistory.com.

本期节目由Adobe Express赞助播出——这是一款快捷简便的万能创作应用。这意味着什么？比如当您需要制作演示文稿、视频、社交媒体帖子或传单时。对某些人（当然包括我）来说，这听起来令人望而生畏。

This episode is presented by Adobe Express, the quick and easy create anything app. What does that mean? Well, say you need to make a presentation or a video or a social media post or a flyer. To some, certainly to me, that sounds intimidating.

但是汤姆，借助Adobe Express的直观功能——如模板、生成式人工智能和实时协作——创作从未如此简单。Adobe Express。免费试用。请在应用商店搜索Adobe Express。那么汤姆，我们为北爱尔兰和爱尔兰共和国的听众准备了极其激动人心的消息，对吧？

But, Tom, with Adobe Express's intuitive features like templates, generative AI, and real time collaboration, it has never been easier. Adobe Express. Try it for free. Search Adobe Express in the App Store. So, Tom, we have some incredibly exciting news for our listeners in Northern Ireland and The Republic Of Ireland, don't we?

当然没错，多米尼克。因为我们将于明年四月前往贝尔法斯特、都柏林和科克，讲述泰坦尼克号的悲剧故事。

We absolutely do, Dominic, because we are going to be in Belfast, in Dublin, and in Cork next year in April, and we will be talking about the tragic story of Titanic.

4月17日周五我们将在贝尔法斯特 waterfront hall 登台，4月18日周六在都柏林会议中心，4月20日周一在科克歌剧院。门票将于下周一（2025年9月22日）上午9点起在therestishistory.com独家面向《余下皆历史》俱乐部会员发售。如果您

We will be on stage in Belfast at the Waterfront Hall on Friday, April 17. We'll be in Dublin at the Convention Center on Saturday, April 18, and in Cork at the Opera House on Monday, April 20. Tickets will go on sale at the restishistory.com exclusively for members of the rest is history club from next Monday, 09/22/2025 at 9AM. So join the rest is history club at therestishistory.com now if you

想抢先锁定门票，请立即行动。随后门票将于下周四（2025年9月25日）上午9点起在therestishistory.com向所有观众开放购买。

want to snap your tickets up early. The tickets will then be available to purchase for everyone else at the restishistory.com from next Thursday, that's the 09/25/2025 at 9AM.

若想获得在贝尔法斯特、都柏林或科克现场观看我们演出的机会，只需前往therestishistory.com即可购票。

So for your chance to see us on stage live in Belfast, Dublin, or Cork, simply head to therestishistory.com to get your tickets.

罗切斯特与查塔姆是两个不同的地方，但彼此毗邻，仅隔着罗切斯特与查塔姆之间的一片很小的沼泽或空地。罗切斯特除了一个非常古老的城堡废墟和一座古老但不算特别的大教堂外，没什么特别之处。但这里的河流及其附属设施却是世界上同类中最宏大的。这里是大不列颠皇家海军的主要军械库。这里的建筑确实如同舰船本身一样，惊人地庞大。

Rochester and Chatham are two distinct places, but contiguous, except the interval of a very small marsh or vacancy between Rochester and Chatham. There is little remarkable in Rochester except the ruins of a very old castle and an ancient, but not extraordinary cathedral. But the river and its appendices are the most considerable of the kind in the world. This being the chief arsenal of the Royal Navy of Great Britain. The buildings here are indeed like the ships themselves, surprisingly large.

而且在那里，有几种类型，它们很美。那些仓库，或者更确切地说是街道，是用于储存海军财富的仓库和储藏室，其尺寸之大、数量之多，在世界上任何地方都无与伦比。制造缆绳的制绳厂和锻造锚及其他铁件的锻炉，其规模也与整体相称。还有用于存放最大尺寸桅杆和帆桁的湿坞，它们沉在水中以进行保存。船厂、锚厂，所有这些都如同整体一样，极其宏大而广阔。

And in there, several kinds, they're beautiful. The warehouses or rather streets are warehouses and storehouses for laying up the naval treasure are the largest in dimension and the most in number that are anywhere to be seen in the world. The rope walk for making cables and the forges for anchors and other iron work bear a proportion to the rest. There's also the wet dock for keeping masts and yards at the greatest size, where they lie sunk in the water to preserve them. The boatyard, the anchoryard, all like the hole, monstrously great and extensive.

它们难以用言语形容。

They're not easily described.

所以，汤姆，刚才那是丹尼尔·笛福，一位伦敦人，在他1724年出版的《大不列颠全岛游记》第一卷中。这本书取得了巨大成功，除了《鲁滨逊漂流记》之外，这是他迄今为止最畅销的书，但从未有人在一个灰暗且略显阴郁的日子，在呼啸的风中，在罗切斯特城堡的顶端，向一群看起来无聊的摄像人员朗读过。非常激动人心的场面。

So that, Tom, was Daniel Defoe, who was a Londoner in the first volume of his tour through the whole island of Great Britain published in 1724. It was a massive success with the exception of Robinson Crusoe. It was by far his best selling book, but never before has it been read out on the top of Rochester Castle on a gray and slightly dreary day in howling winds to an audience of bored looking camera people. Very So exciting scenes.

是的。因为这是期待已久的关于查塔姆高街的剧集，但不仅仅是查塔姆高街，还包括查塔姆内部，这段路将我们引向罗切斯特高街，而我们正位于罗切斯特城堡主楼100英尺高的顶峰上。

Yeah. Because this is the long awaited episode on Chatham High Street, but not just Chatham High Street, intra Chatham, which is the stretch that leads us on to Rochester High Street, and we are on the 100 foot summit of the keep of Rochester Castle.

所以丹尼尔·笛福，为那些不了解的人介绍一下，笛福不仅仅是英国的第一位小说家。他还是英国最伟大的记者之一，不是吗？并且他完成了这次环游整个岛屿的旅程

So Daniel Defoe, just for people who don't know, Defoe was he wasn't just Britain's first novelist. He was Britain's one of Britain's greatest journalists, wasn't he? And he did this tour of the whole island

大不列颠的旅程，他刚刚出版了它

of Great Britain, and he published it just a

在《联合法案》将英格兰和苏格兰合并为联合王国几十年后。因此这是英国历史上一个前所未有的时刻。英国正处于巨大政治、经济、外交变革的边缘。

couple of decades after the act of union had created a United Kingdom out of England and Scotland. So this is a moment in British history like no other. It's a point in which Britain is poised on the brink of absolutely enormous political, economic, diplomatic change.

完全正确。笛福本质上热爱变革。他热爱进步的理念。进步是非常辉格党式的，不是吗？尽管笛福最终基本上是为托利党政府做间谍工作，但我认为他的本能完全属于辉格党。

Absolutely. And Defoe essentially loved change. He loved the idea of progress. Progress is very Whiggish, isn't it? And although Defoe ended up working essentially as a kind of spy for a for a Tory government, I think in his instincts, he was he was all about the Whigs.

年轻时，他曾为蒙茅斯公爵对抗其叔父——天主教国王詹姆斯二世，而蒙茅斯起义遭遇了灾难性失败。但笛福成功避免了被绞死——这对《鲁滨逊漂流记》的粉丝和18世纪英国游记爱好者来说是个好消息。他热爱光荣革命，当詹姆斯二世被驱逐并由新教徒威廉和玛丽取代时，他一直是英格兰与苏格兰联合法案的热心支持者，并积极推动其实施。

So as a young man, he had fought for the duke of Monmouth against his uncle, the Catholic king, James the second, and Monmouth's rebellion had gone disastrously badly. But Defoe had managed to avoid being hanged Yeah. Which is good news for fans of Robinson Crusoe and eighteenth century travelogues around Britain. He he'd loved the glorious revolution when James the second got kicked out and replaced by the protestant William and Mary, and he'd been a big enthusiast for the acts of union between England and Scotland and had actively worked to promote them, actually.

从他的口音——这正是他说话的方式——你大概能看出他出身商界。他是个商业人士，对吧？他做过葡萄酒商人。这或许解释了他为何如此推崇皇家海军、商业理念以及不列颠统治海洋的观念。当然，他还特别钟情海军船厂。

And as you can probably tell from the accent, which is exactly how he spoke, his origins were in trade. He's a mercantile man, isn't he? So he'd worked as a wine merchant. So that perhaps explains one that's one reason why he's so keen on the Royal Navy, the idea of commerce, of Britannia ruling the waves. And, of course, he loves a naval dockyard.

他确实如此。值得一提的是，他曾经航海经商。多米尼克，你肯定喜欢18世纪的葡萄牙葡萄酒仓库吧？笛福就经常在那里逗留。

He absolutely does. And just to say as well that, you know, he he had sailed the seas. He'd been a wine merchant. Dominic, you love a Portuguese wine depot in the eighteenth century, don't you? And Defoe was kind of always hanging out there.

因此当他来到罗切斯特——他描述那里有城堡和大教堂——觉得它相当无聊陈旧时，并不令人意外。而对拥有皇家船厂的查塔姆，他则充满热情。他认为那里不可思议，绝对美妙。我认为这正是描述罗切斯特和查塔姆的那段文字如此精彩的原因，它精准捕捉了英国正处于惊人变革临界点的理念。

And so it's not surprising really that when he comes to Rochester, which he describes as having a castle and cathedral, he looks at it as being rather boring and old. And Chatham, which is where the royal dockyards are, he is all over that. He thinks it's incredible. He thinks it's absolutely wonderful. And I think that that's why that passage describing Rochester and Chatham is absolutely brilliant for pinpointing this idea of Britain that is being on the kind of cusp of incredible change.

是的。这是一个充满仓库、船厂、战舰、全球贸易和自由贸易的世界。而这里正是这个世界的中心枢纽，对吧？罗切斯特和查塔姆，这两个位于梅德韦河两岸的双子镇。

Yeah. So there's a world of kind of warehouses and and dockyards and battleships and global trade and and free trade and all that kind of stuff. And this is the sort of this is the the central access. This is the hub of that of that world, isn't it? Rochester and Chatham, these kind of twin towns across the Medway.

那么，汤姆，给我们来个概览吧。我们之所以

So, Tom, give us a little bit of a tour d'orizon. So the reason

会在这里，显然是因为我逼你来的。你顽强抵抗了三年，但最终我们还是来到了罗切斯特的查塔姆。

that we are here is obviously because I've bullied you into doing it. You've put a heroic three year rear guard action, but at last, we are here in Rochester in Chatham.

各位知道吗？当我看到汤姆的笔记，现在又亲临现场，我简直兴奋极了。我激动得不得了，因为这一集有太多精彩内容：有狄更斯，有海军题材，

You know what, ladies and gentlemen? When I look at Tom's notes and now that I'm here on-site, I could not be more excited. I'm absolutely gog with excitement because there are so many delights to come in this episode. There's Dickens. There's naval stuff.

可能还会提到霍雷肖·纳尔逊。有人在教堂地板上摔跤之类的。这很可能是我在《历史的余味》节目里做过最精彩、最动作密集、最血腥，同时在很多方面也最动人的一集。

There might be a mention of Horatio Nelson. There's people wrestling on the floor of a chapel or something. It is probably the most exciting, the most action packed, the most blood soaked, and in many ways, the most moving episode that we've ever done on The Rest is History.

我想做这期节目是因为我一直在走萨克森肖之路，这是一条沿着肯特海岸线的国家步道——对不熟悉英国地理的听众来说，肯特就是东南部伸入海中的那个半岛。来到这里后我发现罗切斯特大街直接延伸为查塔姆大街。从铁器时代山堡、罗马桥梁、盎格鲁-撒克逊大教堂、诺曼城堡，最终抵达查塔姆船坞——这个大英帝国扩张的重要神经中枢，这条街完美展现了历史变迁。我要断言这是英格兰最具历史意义的街道。

The reason that I wanted to do it is that I've been walking the Saxonshaw Way, which is a kind of national route that follows the coastline of Kent, which for those people not familiar with the geography of England is the bit in the Southeast that sticks out into the sea. And I I realized coming here that Rochester High Street becomes Chatham High Street. And I felt that the the way in which you go from kind of, where we've got an iron age hill fort, we've got a a Roman bridge, we've an Anglo Saxon cathedral, we've got a Norman castle, and yet you end up with Chatham Docks, this kind of great nerve center of British imperial expansion. I I am making the pitch that this is the most historic street in England.

简直是全世界之最啊，汤姆。

Truly the world, Tom.

不是吗？嗯，我觉得在英国，爱丁堡的皇家英里大道也能竞争这个名号——那里有荷里路德宫、爱丁堡城堡、亚当·斯密墓等等。但如果你想感受贯穿英格兰历史变迁的磅礴脉络，将罗切斯特大街和查塔姆大街视为同一条道路的话，那真是精彩绝伦。正如笛福所说，罗切斯特 embodies 旅游手册里那种传统的英格兰。没错。

No? Well, I I think in Britain, you can make a case for the Royal Mile in Edinburgh, which has Holyrood and Edinburgh Castle and the grave of Adam Smith and all kinds of things like that. But this were if you want a sense of the sweep and span and process of change that manifests itself through English history, Rochester High Street, Chatham High Street, if you think of it as a single road, I mean, is is absolutely fantastic. And you as Defoe says, Rochester is all about the kind of traditional England of tourist brochures. Yeah.

查塔姆关乎能源、工业与变革。可以说，我认为在18和19世纪，它就像是五角大楼与硅谷的结合体。

Chatham is about energy and industry and transformation. And you could say, I think, that in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, it's a kind of cross between the Pentagon and Silicon Valley.

而如今的查塔姆，我是说，它保留了那份声誉，对吧汤姆？作为技术和社会变革前沿的璀璨国际都市。难道不是吗？

And Chatham right now, I mean, it's it's retained that reputation, hasn't it, Tom, as a glittering cosmopolitan on the front line of technological and social change. No?

恐怕并非如此。查塔姆造船厂于1984年关闭。我认为可以公平地说，如果你热衷于电子烟店或可能是纹身店，查塔姆高街现在绝对是个好去处。

I fear not. So the the the Chatham Dockyards shut in 1984. And I think it would be fair to say that if you're an enthusiast for vape shops or possibly tattoo parlors, Chatham High Street now is very much the place to go.

其实这两样我都喜欢，所以这很棒。

I actually love both of those things, so it's great.

它现在可能不再像过去那样处于海军技术的前沿。因此，我认为可以公平地说，查塔姆经历过更辉煌的日子。而在这方面，它当然又是英国历史的一个缩影，因为显然，英国已不再是18和19世纪那个伟大的强国。所以，如果说查塔姆体现了英国崛起为全球强国的历程，那么它当前的状况也在某种程度上讲述了英国的相对衰落。

It's probably not at the cutting edge of of naval technology now in the way that it used to be. So I think it's fair to say that Chatham has seen happier days. And and in that, again, of course, it's an exemplar of British history because, obviously, Britain is not the great power that it was in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. And so if Chatham exemplifies the rise to global greatness of Britain, there's also a sense in which its current state tells you about Britain's relative decline.

但在我们探讨历史之前，何不先来一次地理上的小游览？我们在《历史的其余部分》节目中做得不够多的就是地理，而西奥尤其是一位热情的地理爱好者。所以，汤姆，和西奥以及听众们聊聊地理吧。

But before we do some history, why don't we have a little excursion into geography? We don't do enough geography on the rest of history, and and Theo in particular is a passionate aficionado of geography. So, Tom, talk to Theo and and indeed the listeners about geography.

是的。嗯，地理当然对历史研究至关重要，因为地理常常就是历史的宿命，罗切斯特和查塔姆的情况无疑就是如此。那么，为了给可能不熟悉北肯特地区的人们设定一下地理场景：我们位于泰晤士河河口以南，这片水域从伦敦向外延伸至北海。北边是埃塞克斯郡，而我们则位于泰晤士河口南岸的肯特郡。

Yeah. Well, geography, of course, so important to the study of history because so often geography is historical destiny, and that is definitely the case with Rochester and Chatham. So just to to set the geographical scene for people who may not be au fait with, with North Kent. So, we adjust South Of The Thames Estuary, the stretch of water that, extends from London outwards into the North Sea. So we've got Essex to the North, and we're in in Kent on the South South Coast of the the the Thames Estuary.

我们现在正站在梅德韦河畔，这条河发源于肯特郡，向北流入泰晤士河口。罗切斯特和查塔姆都坐落在梅德韦河上，没有这条河就不会有这两座城市。先说说罗切斯特，为什么罗切斯特会在这里？基本上，因为这里是梅德韦河上最低的桥梁跨越点。所以，本质上，如果你想渡过梅德韦河，罗切斯特就是你要来的地方。

And and we are standing beside the Medway, which is a river that rises in Kent and flows northwards out into the Thames Estuary. And Rochester and Chatham both stand on the Medway and would not have come into existence without the Medway. So to talk about Rochester first, why why is Rochester where it is? Basically, because it is the lowest bridging point on the, on the River Medway. So, essentially, if you want to get across the Medway, Rochester is the place to come.

在这一点上，它与梅德韦河的关系，相当于伦敦与泰晤士河的关系。和伦敦一样，是罗马人修建了伦敦桥。所以在这里，也是罗马人修建了第一座横跨梅德韦河的桥梁。但甚至在罗马人来之前，这里就有一条小道，从肯特郡东南端的多佛尔通往泰晤士河，而这里就是渡河点。可以说，这很像是一条铁器时代的高速公路。

And in that, its relationship to the Medway is equivalent to to London's relationship to the Thames. And as with London, it's the Romans who build London Bridge. So here, it's the Romans who build the first bridge over the Medway. But even before the Romans come, there is a trackway here that leads from, you know, Dover, the the Southeastern tip of Kent, up towards the River Thames, and this is the forwarding point. So kind of very much kind of iron age highway.

这条道路最终将被称为瓦特林街，是英格兰的伟大道路之一。

And this is the highway that in due course will will come to be called Watling Street, one of the great roads of of England.

那么它在哪里，汤姆？就是这里吗？

And so where is that, Tom? Is that right here?

是的。所以，如果你在YouTube上观看，你能看到的那座桥，以及查塔姆大街、罗切斯特大街，那都是瓦特林街的一部分。所以，本质上，当尤利乌斯·凯撒麾下的罗马人在公元前55年，然后是公元前54年登陆这里时，在公元前54年，凯撒向泰晤士河推进。他几乎肯定是走的这条路。而且，我们可以相当肯定，在公元43年，当克劳狄乌斯派奥鲁斯·普劳提乌斯率领三个军团来这里时，他们也会来到这里。

Yeah. So so so that bridge that you can see there if you're watching this on YouTube, and essentially Chatham High Street, Rochester High Street, that's all part of Watling Street. So, essentially, when the Romans under Julius Caesar land here in '55 and then fifty four BC, In fifty four BC, Caesar advances towards the Thames. He would almost certainly have come this way. And and and, again, we can be pretty confident that in AD forty three, when Claudius sends three legions here under Aulus Plautius, again, they would have come here.

事实上，我们知道在梅德韦河上发生过一场持续两天的大战，也许在这里，但更可能是在稍微偏南一点的地方。而后来成为皇帝的韦斯帕芗，他率领着他的巴达维亚骑兵渡过了河，这些骑兵拥有穿着全套盔甲游泳的非凡能力。所以是非常激动人心的场面。

And in fact, we know that there is a great two day battle on the Medway, perhaps here more likely a a little bit further south. And Vespasian, who will go on to become the emperor, he crosses the river with his Batavian cavalry who have this extraordinary ability to swim in full armor. So very exciting scenes.

这简直令人难以置信地激动，我无法形容。真是太遗憾了，听众们甚至YouTube上的观众无法真正来到这里，因为这里的空气都因兴奋而带电，不是吗？能站在这历史真实发生的地点？难以置信的历史。

It's unbelievably exciting, and I cannot describe it. It's such a shame that the listeners and even the people watching on YouTube can't actually be here to because the air is electric with excitement, isn't it? To be here in this spot where it actually happened? Unbelievable history.

那么，我能否通过揭示罗马人给这里建造的城镇起的名字来提升兴奋度呢？是的。它叫Durobrivi，几乎可以确定意为‘桥边的要塞’。我的意思是，这简直不能再令人兴奋了。

Well, can I just crank up the excitement Yeah? By revealing Yeah. The name that the Romans give to the town that they built here? It's Durobrivi, which means almost certainly stronghold by the bridge. I mean, couldn't be more exciting.

而且沃特灵街和这座由罗马人建造的桥都幸存于罗马占领时期之后，对吧？基本上是因为它们的位置实在太优越了。所以如果你要去多佛，或者从多佛来，要去伦敦，你都会走这条路。

And both Watling Street and this bridge built by the Romans survive the Roman occupation, don't they? Basically, because they're just so well located. So if you're going to Dover, if you are coming from Dover, if you're going to London, you're gonna go this way.

没错。所以它绝对是——本质上它是连接伦敦及伦敦以外所有地区的重要道路

Yes. So it's absolutely the it's it's essentially it's the great road that links London and everything that lies beyond London

是的。

Yeah.

通往多佛，进而连接欧洲大陆。

To Dover and therefore to the continent.

但罗切斯特说得够多了。到目前为止已经谈了很多罗切斯特。查塔姆在哪儿？跟我聊聊查塔姆。好吧，查塔姆的景色

But enough of Rochester. There's been a lot of Rochester so far. Where's Chatham? Talk to me about Chatham. Well, the view of Chatham

就在我们现在站立的城堡主楼的另一侧。

is on the other side of the keep where we're standing now.

我现在正在看它。太华丽了。绝对令人惊叹。

I'm looking at it now. It's gorgeous. It's absolutely stunning.

我认为，多米尼克，我们应该让哈里移动摄像机，到城堡的另一边去。

I think, Dominic, we should get Harry to move the cameras and go over on the other side of the keep.

二。所以正如你所见，如果你正在Spotify或YouTube上观看，我们现在已经移到了城堡的另一侧。而戏剧感、紧张感和危险感每一刻都在变得更加尖锐，原因有二。第一，风力现已达到大风级别。第二，城堡的工作人员不得不在楼下抵挡一大群人。

Two. So as you can see, if you are watching on Spotify or on YouTube, we have now moved to the other side of the castle. And the sense of drama, tension, and jeopardy is becoming more acute with every moment for two reasons. Number one, the wind has now reached gale force levels. And secondly, the staff of the castle are having to fight off a huge throng downstairs.

两个不同的群体。一个是‘历史余韵’俱乐部成员，他们刚在restishistory.com注册，并听说汤姆·霍兰在这里。他们非常兴奋。另一个是一群小学生，汤姆禁止他们来到城堡顶部，这破坏了他们的郊游、他们的一天，甚至可能永远破坏他们对历史的热爱。但是，汤姆，告诉我们。

Two different groups. One, a group of rest is history club members who've just signed up at the rest is history.com and have heard that Tom Holland is here. They're very excited. And the other, a group of schoolchildren whom Tom has forbidden from coming to the top of the castle, ruining their outing, their day, and quite possibly their love of history forever. But, Tom, tell tell us.

告诉所有在Spotify和YouTube上观看的人，为什么你禁止这些孩子来到城堡顶部，以便你能谈论查塔姆。嗯，

Tell everybody watching on Spotify and YouTube why you have barred these children from coming to the top of the castle so that you can talk about Chatham. Well,

我…我会尽力在那些心碎的12岁历史迷的抽泣声中解释。但我们站在这座100英尺高的诺曼城堡的顶峰很重要，因为，我们来到了另一侧，现在你可以看到梅德韦河的蜿蜒全景。我们之前谈到梅德韦河对罗切斯特至关重要。它对查塔姆也同样关键。所以查塔姆比罗切斯特更靠近大海，这意味着如果你驾驶一艘巨大的都铎式船只，它会方便得多，而这正是十六世纪开始发生的事情，因为英格兰正在扩展其全球利益、贸易、海盗活动，并最终进行征服。

I I'll try to do it over the sound of the sobbing of distraught 12 year old history fans. But it's important for us to be on the summit of this 100 foot Norman Keep because, we've come to the other side, and now you can see the sweep of the Medway. And we talked about how the Medway is key to Rochester. It's also the key to Chatham. So Chatham is closer to the sea than Rochester, which means that it is much more convenient should you be sailing an enormous Tudor ship, which is what starts to happen in the sixteenth century because England is expanding its global interests, trade, piracy, ultimately conquest.

而伊丽莎白时代的朝廷开始意识到，它理想地位于伦敦和通往世界的航线之间。于是在1568年，伊丽莎白一世正式将查塔姆设立为皇家造船厂。从那时起，它在皇家海军的成长以及首先英格兰、然后英国与更广阔世界接触的兴起中扮演了根本性的角色，这当然最终导致了英帝国的建立。而且，显然，这是一个持续了几个世纪的过程。查塔姆逐渐发展成为它在十八世纪乃至十九世纪时的样子，成为地球表面上最具未来感的地方，这是一个巨大、巨大、长期的政府赞助计划，或许可以说，英国政府已经有点忘记如何开展这类计划了。

And the the Elizabethan court starts to realize that it's ideally situated between London and the kind of the shipping lanes that lead to the world. So in 1568, Elizabeth the first formally institutes Chatham as a royal dockyard. And from that point on, it plays a fundamental role in the growth of the Royal Navy and the emergence of first English and then British engagement with the broader world, which, of course, ultimately will result in the establishment of the British empire. And, obviously, that is a process that takes centuries. And the emergence of Chatham as what it becomes in the the eighteenth and into the nineteenth century, so the most futuristic place on the face of the planet, is a huge, huge long term government sponsored plan of the kind perhaps you might say that the British state has slightly forgotten how to engage in.

但既有成功也有失败，对吧？因为我们现在所处的地方，梅德韦河是世界历史上最可耻、最背信弃义、最终却微不足道的时刻之一的发生地，不是吗？那就是荷兰人对梅德韦的突袭。他们是坏人，他们真的让自己失望了。

But born as much of failure as success. Right? Because where we are now, the Medway is the location for one of the most disgraceful, perfidious, ultimately insignificant moments in world history, isn't it? Which is the Dutch raid on the Medway. They're they're bad people, and they really let themselves down.

是的。

Yeah.

那是在1667年6月，是英格兰与荷兰共和国之间一系列战争的一部分。这是查理二世统治下的第二场战争，他刚从荷兰流亡归来，我们稍后会详细听到更多。在17世纪60年代，荷兰人与查理二世相处得一点都不好。正如我们所说，1667年，荷兰人驶入梅德韦河，他们发现保护船坞和所有停泊在那里的船只的防御措施根本不合格。他们烧毁或捕获了13艘英国船只，并以一种令人震惊的盗窃行为羞辱了对方。

So that's in, June 1667, and it's part of a series of wars that England and The Dutch Republic are waging against each other. This is the second bout of war under the reign of Charles the second, who's, just come back after his exile in The Netherlands, and we'll be hearing more about that in due course. And the Dutch and Charles the second aren't getting on well at all in the sixteen sixties. And as we say, in in in 1667, the Dutch sail up the Medway, and they find that the defenses in place to protect the dockyards and all the ships that are, at anchor there just aren't up to scratch. And they burn or capture 13 English ships and Dominic in in a shocking display of thieving.

他们拖走了英国海军的旗舰HMS皇家查尔斯号，可耻的是，这艘船至今仍在荷兰国家博物馆展出。

They haul away HMS Royal Charles, which is the flagship of the English navy, and disgracefully, it's still on display in the Rijksmuseum to this day.

你想知道丹尼尔·笛福说了什么吗？

Do wanna know what, Daniel Defoe said?

是的，告诉我他说了什么。

Yeah. Tell me what

他有。我知道你喜欢一点丹尼尔·笛福。他对这件事有尖锐的看法。他说，

he had. I know you like a bit, Daniel Defoe. He had he had pungent views about this. He said,

这次警报让英格兰如此深刻地意识到梅德韦河以及所有

this alarm gave England such a sense of the consequence of the River Medway and of all the docks and in

这只狗。警报，他改变了声音因为他游历了各国。是的。他学会了游历全国。它学会了不同的口音。

the dog. Alarm, he changed his voice because he toured the countries. Yeah. He picked up toured the country. It picked up different it picked up different accents.

他说：这次警报让英格兰如此深刻地意识到梅德韦河以及查塔姆所有船坞和造船厂的重要性，以及皇家海军在那里暴露的危险，以至于当时打开的所有大门自那时起都被锁上并充分加固。现在任何国家——国家（口误）。我不知道那里发生了什么——即使他们掌握了制海权，除非同时掌握陆权，否则也无法给我们这样的羞辱。我其实不知道最后那段是什么意思，因为我完全被口音分散了注意力。

He said, this alarm gave England such a sense of the consequence of the River Medway and of all the docks and yards at Chatham and of the danger the rural navy lay exposed to there, that all these doors which were opened then are locked up and sufficiently barred since that time, And it is not now in the power of any nation under heaven. Nation. I don't know what happened there. Though they should be masters at sea unless they were masters at land too at the same time to give us such another affront. I don't actually know what that last bit means because I was just so distracted by the accent.

他是什么意思？

What does he mean?

他的意思是，梅德韦河袭击事件对英国政府震动如此之大，以至于沿着雷德韦河直至查塔姆全线，特别是在进入梅德韦河的河口处，都建立了绝对坚固的防御工事。本质上，他是说即使海军霸权从英国转移，敌人仍然无法强行入侵。而查塔姆唯一可能被摧毁的方式就是遭遇陆上入侵。笛福是对的，因为查塔姆在七年战争、拿破仑战争期间始终坚不可摧，我们在纳尔逊系列节目中讨论过，拿破仑对英格兰的计划——只要他能让部队渡海——就是直取查塔姆并摧毁它。这相当于今天摧毁某种核防御系统之类的。

What he means is that the raid on the Medway was such a shock to the British state that absolutely impregnable defenses were put in place all the way along the line of the Redway up to Chatham and particularly at the mouth of the estuary going into the Medway. And, essentially, he's saying that even if, naval supremacy were to pass from Britain, people still wouldn't be able to force their way in. And the only conceivable way in which Chatham could be destroyed would be if there was a land invasion. And Defoe is right because Chatham stands impregnable throughout the Seven Years' War, throughout the Napoleonic Wars, and we talked in our episodes on Nelson about how Napoleon's plan for England, if he could only get his troops across, was to march straight on Chatham and destroy it. I mean, it would be the equivalent of knocking out, I don't know, a kind of nuclear defense system or something like that today.

它经历了第一次世界大战。它经历了第二次世界大战。在整个这些冲突期间，以及在十九世纪漫长的和平年代里，查塔姆既是英国作为全球大国的象征，也是其支点。

And it, it survives the first world war. It survives the second world war. And throughout those throughout those conflicts and also throughout the long decades of peace in the nineteenth century, Chatham, I guess, is both the the symbol and the fulcrum of Britain's role as a a great global power.

那么在此之前，汤姆，简单说一下，因为学生们正挤着上楼。英国本身当然曾是一个伟大帝国的一部分，是罗马帝国网络中的一个节点。实际上，我们一直在俯瞰瓦特林街和大桥，对吧？再多说一点

So before that, Tom, just quickly, because the schoolchildren are fighting their way up the stairs. Britain was, of course, herself part of a great empire, and it was a kind of node in the imperial network of the Roman empire. Actually, And, we've been looking down at Watling Street and the Great Bridge, haven't we? Just say a little bit more

关于那座桥，因为你喜欢那座桥。

about that bridge because you love that bridge.

是的。正如你所说，梅德韦河上的第一座桥很可能是一座浮桥，后来罗马人用巨大的石墩和木板进行了改造。这座桥一直存续到罗马政权崩溃后很久，可能直到八或九世纪才被重建。它之所以如此重要，正如我们所说，是因为这是从欧洲大陆最短的渡口多佛尔到伦敦的最快路线。因此，在罗马撤军后，罗马与已成为盎格鲁-撒克逊英格兰的地区再次联系，不是通过军事手段，而是通过精神手段——六世纪末，圣奥古斯丁带着一群僧侣到来，皈化异教的盎格鲁-撒克逊人，这并不令人惊讶。

Yeah. So what you said, the first bridge over the Medway, probably probably a pontoon bridge, and then the Romans develop it with great stone piers and kind of wooden planks across it. And that bridge endures well into well after the, the collapse of of Roman power, and it's there probably up until eighth or ninth centuries when it gets rebuilt again. And the reason that it's so important, as we said, it's the quickest way to get from from Dover, which is the shortest crossing point from the continent, up to London. And so it's not surprising that in the wake of the Roman withdrawal, Rome makes contact again with what's become Anglo Saxon England, not with military means, but with spiritual means when, at the end of the sixth century, Saint Augustine arrives, with a a band of monks to convert the pagan Anglo Saxons.

他最初的计划是前往伦敦并在那里建立一个大主教区，但他们没有这么做，因为伦敦算是敌对领土。因此，他们著名地停在了坎特伯雷，这就是为什么英国教会的首领至今仍在坎特伯雷。那也是盎格鲁-撒克逊英格兰第一座大教堂的建造地。但第二座盎格鲁-撒克逊大教堂，建于604年，就在我们站立处的下方，由一位名叫贾斯图斯的人创立于罗切斯特，他和奥古斯丁一样来自罗马。它非常古老。

And his original plan is to get to London and establish, an archbishopric there, but they don't because London is kind of hostile territory. So famously, they stop in Canterbury, and that's why the head of the church of England is is in Canterbury to this day. And that is where the first cathedral, in Anglo Saxon England is built. But the second Anglo Saxon cathedral, which is founded in 06/2004, is down there from where we are standing, and it's founded in, in Rochester by a guy called Justice who, like Augustine, is from Rome. And it's incredibly old.

我的意思是，手机上说它没什么意思。但我的意思是，它有趣在于，这把我们带回到了罗马教会在英格兰的最早日子，回到了格列高利大帝的时代。我，你知道，我觉得这非常感人。你喜欢那种活生生的联系感。

I mean, the phone says it's it's says it's not very interesting. But it's I mean, it is interesting in the sense that, you know, this takes us right the way back to the earliest days of of the Roman church in in England, back to the age of Gregory the Great. And I I, you know, I find it very moving. You love sense of a living link.

是的。你喜欢那个，不是吗？我喜欢。它是征服者威廉赐给奥多·阿巴亚的。不是吗？

Yeah. You love that, don't you? I do. It was given to Odo Abaya by William the Conqueror. No?

是的。因为盎格鲁-撒克逊英格兰随着诺曼征服而终结。在我们关于那一集的节目中，我们谈到了威廉如何从黑斯廷斯前往多佛尔并占领它，然后前往伦敦。他途经罗切斯特，因此他看出这是一个绝对关键的要夺取之地。于是，他同父异母的兄弟奥多，一位主教但非常喜欢打仗。

Yeah. Because so so Anglo Saxon England comes to to to an end with the Norman conquest. And in our episode on that, we talked about how William from Hastings goes to to Dover and captures it and then goes to London. And he comes via Rochester, so he sees that it's an absolutely kind of crucial place to seize. And so he his, his half brother, Odo, who is a bishop but very fond of fighting.

所以 famously，你知道，作为主教，你不被允许流血，所以他用棍棒或钉头锤杀人。威廉将罗切斯特的主教区赐给了奥多。但奥多是个非常坏的人，他非常奸诈，最终被赶了出去。于是威廉把它赐给了一位杰出的人物，他叫...不是甘道夫。

So famously, you know, as a bishop, you're not allowed to shed blood, so he kills people with a with a club or a mace. And William gives Rochester as a bishopric to Odo. But Odo is, he's a very bad man. He he, is very treacherous, and he gets chucked out. And so William gives it to this remarkable man who is called it's not Gandalf.

这是甘道夫，但很相似。他在威廉的职业生涯中扮演着略带甘道夫色彩的角色，因为他是一个成就非凡的人。他非常非常聪明，非常擅长创造事物。所以他是一位伟大的建筑师，也是一位伟大的工程师。

It's Gandalf, but quite similar. And he has a slightly, you know, his slightly Gandalf esque role in in William's career because he's a man who who achieves extraordinary things. He's very as he's very, very smart, very proficient at creating things. So he's a great architect. He's a great engineer.

正是甘道夫在伦敦建造了白塔，这成为了伦敦塔的基础。十月份，他开始在罗切斯特这里翻新那座基本上已经支离破碎的盎格鲁-撒克逊大教堂。它当时非常破败。他实际建造的部分大多没有保存下来，除了一个叫甘道夫塔的地方，可惜从这里看不到。但不管怎样，人们对甘道夫很感兴趣。

And it's Gandalf who builds the White Tower in London, which becomes the kind of the basis for the the the Tower Of London. And in October, he starts work here in Rochester on renewing the Anglo Saxon cathedral that had basically kind of fallen to pieces. It was it was very decrepit. Not much of what he actually built survives except for a place called Gandalf's Tower, which annoyingly we can't actually see from here. But anyway, I mean, people are interested in Gandalf.

你仍然可以看到他的塔。所以这真是很棒的播客内容。太棒了

You can still see his tower. So This is great podcasting. Great

的播客。确实如此。

podcasting. It really is.

它在整个中世纪期间不断被改造。在十三世纪它经历了一段特别艰难的时期，当时英格兰最差的国王约翰洗劫了它。然后自封为英国议会之父的西蒙·德·蒙福特也洗劫了它。我觉得总有一种感觉，就是它有点破旧。十六世纪的佩皮斯就是这样描述它的。

And it gets remodeled throughout the throughout the middle ages. It has a particularly bad time in the thirteenth century when king John, England's worst king, loots it. And then Simon de Montford, the self styled father of the English parliament, he loots it as well. And I think there's always a sense that it's it's a little bit shabby. That's how Peeps described it in the sixteenth century.

我们听到笛福说它古老，但并不非凡。而且，我认为这算是公平的评价。

And we heard Defoe, saying it was ancient, but not extraordinary. And, again, I I mean, I think that's kind of fair.

但挑出一些亮点吧。那里有一个不错的地窖。有一个地窖。所以那是

But pick out some highlights. So there's a nice crypt. There's a crypt. So that was

由甘道夫建造，所以粉丝们也能看到他的塔楼。

built by So Gandalf fans can see that as well as his tower.

你对雄伟的西门很兴奋吧？非常兴奋。是的。

You're excited about the great West Door. Aren't you? Very excited. Yeah.

非常非常

It's very, very

基督找到了我们和另一个人。

Christ and has got us and someone else.

国王埃塞尔伯特，他欢迎奥古斯丁和他的传教士来到肯特。

King Ethelbert, who welcomed Augustine and his missionaries to Ken.

还有一个漂亮的天花板，上面有些绿人图案。你很喜欢绿人。但最重要的是，你告诉我的那件事，我觉得其实挺感人的。你说2019年你去大教堂中心打迷你高尔夫，这是让你比以往任何时候都更接近超自然维度的事情之一。

And there's another lovely ceiling with some green men. You love a green man. But most of all, the thing that you were telling me, which I was I found actually quite moving. You said one of the most something that had brought you closer to the dimension of the supernatural than ever before was you went in 2019. You played mini golf in in the center of the cathedral.

所以在2019年，追随圣贾斯蒂斯的脚步

So in 2019, following in the footsteps of Saint Justice

是的。

Yeah.

而甘道夫主教，大教堂当局在大教堂的中殿设立了一个迷你高尔夫球场。

And Bishop Gandalf, the cathedral authority set up a mini golf course in the nave of the cathedral.

好吧，我能告诉大家汤姆在大教堂打完高尔夫后给我发的短信内容吗？他说，多米尼克，在玩冒险高尔夫时，我真的觉得我我我反思了我们自己生活和当今世界中需要搭建的桥梁。

Well, can I tell people what you so Tom texted me after he played golf in the cathedral? He said, Dominic, while playing adventure golf, I really felt that I I I reflected on the bridges that need to be built in our own lives and in the world today.

而且，多米尼克，你知道我那个反思最神奇的地方是什么吗？是的。就是几天后，是的。罗切斯特教区发布了一条消息，说我们希望游客在玩冒险高尔夫时，能反思他们自己生活和当今世界中需要搭建的桥梁。所以，所以这又是麻烦事。

And, Dominic, do you know what's amazing about that reflection that I had Yeah. Is that a few days later Yeah. The the the diocese of Rochester put out a message saying that we hope that while playing adventure golf, visitors will reflect on the bridges that need to be built in their own lives and in our world today. So so it's trouble. Yet again,

罗切斯特教区一直在黑我们的短信。难以置信。那么，在这个爆炸性消息之后，汤姆，我们赶快继续聊聊罗切斯特城堡吧，在我们下去让小学生上来之前。告诉我罗切斯特城堡的历史。那么这是什么？

the diocese at Rochester has been hacking our texts. Unbelievable. So on that bombshell, Tom, let's just move on very quickly to talk about Rochester Castle before we descend and allow the schoolchildren up here. Tell me about the history of Rochester Castle. So this is what?

最初是诺曼式的？

Norman originally?

是的。所以，笛福在你读的那段里，我是说，他对大教堂非常无礼，也许并非不公平，但他说城堡只是一片废墟，我我是说，我们正站在这上面，你可以看到它显然不是废墟。它它我们那里有一个牌子，写着对人类不安全，下面有100英尺的落差。总的来说，我是说，这是非常非常令人印象深刻的建筑。这并不奇怪，因为在一个非常重要的河流渡口，你希望有一个非常强大的防御系统，以便能够控制它。

Yeah. So, Defoe, in that bit you read, I mean, he's very rude about the cathedral, perhaps not unfairly, but he said that the the castle was just a ruin, which I I mean, we're standing up here, and you can see it's clearly not a ruin. It it we've got a a a sign there saying it's unsafe for humans, a 100 foot drop beneath. Generally, this I mean, this is very, very impressive structure. And it's not surprising because where you have a very important river crossing, you want to have a very strong defensive system so that you can keep control of it.

所以正如你所说，威廉在这里建造了第一座城堡并不令人意外，因为诺曼人当时就是这么做的。而且，他把大教堂赐给了奥多，还命令奥多建造一座城堡，奥多照做了，是用木头建造的。但当奥多因行为不端和对同父异母的兄弟背信弃义而被驱逐后，他将城堡的责任移交给了甘道夫主教。

And so it's not surprising that, as you say, yes, it is William who builds the first castle here because that's what the Normans are doing. And, again, he gives the you know, he's given the cathedral to Odo. He also tells Odo to to to build a castle, which Odo does. It's made of wood. But when Odo gets chucked out for behaving badly and and treacherously towards his half brother, he hands the responsibility for the castle over to bishop Gandalf.

我们之前提到过甘道夫是一位杰出的建筑师和工程师。他开始用石砌工艺建造城堡，这可能是诺曼征服后最早的石制城堡之一。正因如此——我来之前还在博德利图书馆查阅资料——甘道夫显然被皇家工程兵团认定为他们的奠基人。所以他们追溯了一条延续线，贯穿整个中世纪，一直回溯到甘道夫。我想，这部分要归功于伦敦塔的声誉，但也因为这一点：尽管我们现在站立的这座主堡建于12世纪，但城墙是甘道夫建造的。

And we've said how Gandalf is a tremendous architect, a tremendous engineer. He gets to work building a castle out of stone masonry, probably one of the first stone castles to be built by the Normans after the conquest. And it's because of that, I was just reading up in the Bodleian before we came up here, that, Gandalf apparently is recognized by the core of royal engineering as the man who established them. So they kind of trace a a line of continuity all the way back to, to through the middle ages, back to Gandalf. And that, I guess, in part is is due to the the the reputation of of the Tower Of London, but also due to this because although the keep where we're standing now was built in the twelfth century, the walls are Gandalf's.

这座主堡真是令人惊叹。当你乘火车进入罗切斯特时，就能看到它巍然耸立。我认为它是英格兰最高的主堡，也是全欧洲最高的主堡之一。而且，它是由一位大主教而不仅仅是主教建造的。所以在12世纪，罗切斯特被赐给了坎特伯雷大主教里克。

And this keep is, I mean, is amazing. When you come into Rochester on the train, you can see it kind of looming up. Think it's the the the tallest keep in England, one of the tallest keeps in the whole of of of Europe. And, again, it was built by not just a bishop, but by an archbishop. So Rochester got given to the archbishop Rick of Canterbury in the twelfth century.

我们节目之前提到过它。它在历史的其他部分也出现过。

We've had it in the show before. It's been in the rest of history.

确实。它出现在我们关于农民起义的那一集中——虽然名称有误，但你知道，那是埃塞克斯和肯特人民的大起义。当叛军想要进军伦敦时，他们必须先夺取这座城堡，因为它是通往伦敦道路的关键。他们成功攻占了城堡，俘虏了城堡长官，并把他作为人质。当他们到达伦敦，想要与理查二世及其政府谈判时，罗切斯特大教堂的城堡长官就成了叛军与王室当局之间的沟通桥梁。

It has. So it it it featured in our episode on the on the peasants revolt, misnamed, but, you know, this great rebellion of of of people in, in Essex, but also in Kent. And when the, the rebels want to march on London, they have to seize the castle first because it's the great key to the road that leads to London. And they managed to storm the castle, and they capture the Castellan, the guy in charge of it, and they take him hostage. And when they get to London and they want to negotiate with Richard the second and his government, the Castellan of Rochester Cathedral is the guy that they use to communicate between the rebels and the royal authorities.

基本上，在罗切斯特城堡的历史上，许多大人物都曾到访过，对吧？比如法国的约翰国王，被黑太子俘虏后，他被带经罗切斯特，并向大教堂捐赠了财物。

And, basically, through Rochester Castle's history, loads of big names have been there, haven't they? So king John of France, when he was captured by the black prince, he was brought through Rochester, made a donation to the cathedral.

是的。那很温馨。亨利五世在阿金库尔战役凯旋归来后，

Yes. That's nice. Henry the fifth, after returning in triumph from Agincourt,

你知道，他

you know, he

必须前往加莱，渡过海峡到达加莱，沿着大路骑马前往伦敦，并途经罗切斯特。而他并非最后一位在罗切斯特留下难忘仪式的国王，因为还有另一位真正在这座城市留下印记的君主。我们无法从这里看到他留下的痕迹，所以我认为我们应该顺着楼梯蜿蜒而下，经过那些抽泣的学童，让他们上来顶层，而我们将下去前往这个纪念1660年查理二世抵达罗切斯特的地点。

has to get to Calais, crosses to Calais, rides the great Road up to to London, and passes through Rochester. And he is not the last king to make a memorable procession through Rochester because there is another one who has left a real mark on the city. We can't see that mark that he left from up here, So I think we should, wind our way down the stairs past the, sobbing schoolchildren, and allow them to come up here to the top, and we will go down and go to this site, which commemorates the arrival in Rochester in 1660 of Charles the second.

汤姆，罗切斯特的复辟府。这就是我们现在所在的地方。一座绝对华丽的17世纪建筑典范。我们刚刚由业主乔纳森·威尔莫特带领参观，惊人的艺术品、家具等等，如果你在Spotify或YouTube上观看就能看到。但为什么

Tom, Restoration House, Rochester. That's where we are right now. An absolutely gorgeous example of seventeenth century architecture. We've just been shown around by the owner, Jonathan Wilmot, amazing artworks, furniture, whatnot that you can see if you're watching on Spotify or on YouTube. But why are

我们在这里？嗯，如你所说，这是一座惊人的17世纪房屋，其起源可追溯至15世纪末、16世纪，各种部分拼凑在一起。所以佩夫斯纳相当无礼地形容它“高度奇特且缺乏纪律”。但我认为它氛围感难以置信，与站在诺曼城堡顶上的感觉截然不同。我们在这里是因为住在这里最著名的人物是查理二世，他在复辟期间一直流亡在外。

we here? Well, as you say, an amazing seventeenth century house, origins going back to late fifteenth century, sixteenth century, all kind of patched together. So Pevsner rather rudely described it as being all highly peculiar and undisciplined. But I think it's unbelievably atmospheric, very different vibe to being on top of a a Norman castle. But we are here because the most famous person who stayed here was Charles the second, who had been in exile throughout the restoration.

克伦威尔去世。人们不知如何是好。于是他们说，好吧，我们试着把查理二世请回来。所以他在多佛登陆。他之前一直待在荷兰共和国。

Cromwell dies. People don't know what to do. So they say, well, let's try and bring Charles the second back. So he lands in Dover. He's been staying in the The Dutch Republic.

现在他回到了英格兰的土地上，正行进前往伦敦。他在1660年5月28日晚上在这里过夜。第二天早上他起床，那天是他的生日，然后他出发前往伦敦。因此，这地方得名复辟府。但还有

Now he's back in English soil, and he's processing towards London. And he spends the night of 05/28/1660 here. The next morning he gets up, it's his birthday and he goes off into London. And so hence hence the name Restoration House. But there's

一个绝妙的文学联系，不是吗？而且与罗切斯特、这个地区最受喜爱的儿子之一有关。因为如果我没说错的话，查尔斯·狄更斯正是以我们现在坐着的这所房子为灵感，创作了萨蒂斯府——当然，也就是他小说《远大前程》中郝薇香小姐的宅邸。

a brilliant literary connection, isn't there? And a connection with one of Rochester's, one of this area's favorite sons. Because am I not right in saying that Charles Dickens used this house where we're sitting right now as the inspiration for Sattis House, which is, of course, Miss Havisham's house in his novel Great Expectations.

我认为为了这个播客的目的，我们可以说是100%。这就是灵感来源。

I think for the purposes of this podcast, we can say 100%. This was the inspiration.

它刚才就是这么说的。

It just said that.

不。据说狄更斯在写《远大前程》时，曾被看到倚着某种东西向里张望。我认为我们可以说是100%。对于那些在YouTube或Spotify上观看的人，如果你想象这个场景布满蜘蛛网，背景还有一个发霉的婚礼蛋糕，你绝对可以想象郝薇香小姐在圣坛被抛弃，穿着腐朽的婚纱，像幽灵一样飘来飘去。可怜的皮普。

No. Dickens was seen leaning on a kind of looking in at it while writing Great Expectations. I think we can say 100. And it actually for those who are looking on YouTube or or Spotify, if you imagine this setting covered in cobwebs and a mouldering wedding cake in the background, I think you can absolutely imagine miss Haversham jilted at the altar in her decayed wedding dress kind of gliding around like a ghoul. Poor Pip.

是的。你知道，那个铁匠的小男孩，感觉自己非常粗俗，为自己感到难过。

Yeah. You know, the little blacksmith's boy feeling very coarse and sorry for himself.

嗯，《远大前程》对我来说意义非凡，汤姆，因为我曾连续四年凭借朗诵《远大前程》的开篇赢得了学校的公开演讲和朗诵比赛。

Well, Crazy Expectations is very close to my heart, Tom, because I won the school public speaking and reading competition four years in a row with the opening of Great Expectations.

连续四年？四年

Four years in a row? Four years

都是同一段朗诵。天啊。真无趣。

in a the same reading. God. Joyless.

你被允许那样做吗？

Are you allowed to do that?

其实不算。这被认为是违背精神而非法律条文。那确实像是作弊。大概到第三四次时，英语系主任说，你这种无可匹敌的精妙解读真的毁了所有人的体验。但你一定

Not really. It was considered against spirit, but not the letter of the law. That really does seem like cheating. By about the third or fourth time, the head of English said, you're really ruining this for everybody else with this re with this reading that is unbeatable because it's such a brilliant reading. But you must be

不过能来这里还是很兴奋吧。

excited though to be here.

哦，当然。但你知道，这就是我的作风。汤姆，我就是这样行事的。如果我能赢的同时还能剥夺其他人的所有乐趣，那就更好了。

Oh, yeah. I mean but that you know, that's come home. That's the way I roll, Tom. That's the way I that's the way I operate. If I can if I can win and suck all the pleasure out of it for other people, so much the better.

我们来谈谈狄更斯吧。

Let's talk about Dickens.

他之所以在这里凝视窗户，是因为他在罗切斯特郊外梅德韦河对岸有座房子，叫盖茨山庄。是的。他在那里度过了生命的最后十四年，并且深爱着罗切斯特。

The reason that he's kind of hanging out here gazing at the windows Yeah. Is because he actually had a house just outside Rochester, the other side of the Medway, which was called Gads Hill Place. Yeah. And he lived there for the last fourteen years of his life. And he absolutely loved Rochester.

基本上，在罗切斯特走到哪儿都能看到狄更斯的影子。餐厅、咖啡馆等等到处都是。

Basically, everywhere you go in Rochester, you see Dickens illusions. So restaurants, cafes, whatever.

我们刚去了咖啡馆，杰克。是的，狄更斯咖啡馆。

We've just been to the cafe, Jack Yeah. Dickens Cafe.

那里有一些小牌子写着狄更斯的事，比如这栋房子曾是某某人居住的地方之类的。盖茨山庄，也就是他在罗切斯特郊外的住所，他的一位朋友送了他一座瑞士风格的小木屋，就像宜家包裹一样分装在几个箱子里运来的。狄更斯想把它组装在一个能眺望大海的观景点。所以，在他花园的尽头，有一条相当繁忙的马路。他就在路下挖了一条隧道，然后把瑞士小木屋组装在了马路的另一边。这样，在他书房所在的二楼，他就可以眺望大海并从中获得灵感。

And there were kind of little signs saying Dickens is, you know, this house was where so and so lived or whatever. And Gads Hill, the house, outside Rochester where he lived, he got given a a Swiss chalet by, one of his friends, and it kind of arrived like an IKEA pack in various boxes. And he want Dickens wanted to assemble it at a viewpoint where he could look out at the sea. So, the bottom of his garden, there was a quite a busy road. So he dug a tunnel under the road, and then he assembled the Swiss chalet on the far side of the road so that in the Second Floor where he had his study, he could look out at the sea and be inspired by it.

显然，那座小木屋至今还在，你仍然可以在罗切斯特高街附近看到它。所以，如果你喜欢狄更斯，我的意思是，这里有数不清的狄更斯趣闻。这里与狄更斯相关的另一件著名的事是，这是他最后一部未完成的小说《埃德温·德鲁德之谜》的背景地。还有那个鸦片瘾君子兼大教堂管风琴师约翰·贾斯珀，他几乎可以肯定就是谋杀埃德温·德鲁德的凶手，或者说，埃德温·德鲁德死了吗？谁知道呢？他就住在我们刚去过的城堡下方的一个门楼里。

And that chalet apparently is is still you can still see it just off Rochester High Street. So if you like Dickens, I mean, no end of Dickensian fun facts here. And the other famous thing associated with Dickens here is that it's the setting for his last novel, which he never completed, The Mystery of Edwin Drood, and the opium addict and cathedral organist, John Jasper, who almost certainly is the murderer of Edwin Drood, or is Edwin Drood dead? Who knows? He lived on one of the gates that's just below the castle where we've been.

而《埃德温·德鲁德》中的罗切斯特被称为克洛伊斯特汉姆。狄更斯对它的描述与笛福的非常相似。他说，一座属于另一个时代、已逝时光的城市将他封闭其中。城里的一切都属于过去。所以，罗切斯特给人的感觉就是，一个承载着英格兰历史的地方

And the Rochester in Edwin Drood is called Cloisterham. Dickens' description of it is very similar to Defoe's. So he says, a city of another and a bygone time is cloist to him. All things in it are of the past. So there's that sense of Rochester as a place where, you know, the history of England

沉淀着历史层层叠叠的痕迹。

is invested. The layers of history.

但狄更斯也知道，查塔姆的情况就并非如此了。他对查塔姆非常熟悉，因为他童年中性格形成的关键几年就是在那里度过的。

But as Dickens also knew, the same cannot be said of Chatham. And he knew Chatham very well because he had spent the formative years of his childhood there.

那是因为他的父亲，约翰·狄更斯，曾在那里工作，是一名职员，对吧，在海军的军饷办公室？所以狄更斯从大约五岁到十一岁都住在那里？

And that's because his father, John Dickens, had worked as a clerk there, hadn't he, in the naval pay office? And so Dickens lived there from what, the age of five to the age of 11?

是的。而且觉得它很棒。没错。对它有着近乎不可思议的美好童年回忆，认为它非常神奇。然后多年后的1860年，当他48岁时，他再次回来，这是他自童年以来第一次重返查塔姆。

Yes. And thought it was wonderful. Yeah. Had beauty kind of incredible childhood memories of it, thought it was amazing. And then years later in 1860, when he was 48, he came back and, you know, it's his first visit to Chatham since he'd been a boy.

杜勒斯伯勒。所以或许我们可以把这个作为标题，嗯，用于本期节目。不过在查塔姆（又名杜勒斯伯勒）游览一天后，他离开时心情稍微缓和了一些。

And he wrote up about it expressing essentially his disappointment that it wasn't quite as amazing as he remembered it. And he was so disappointed and listeners to this podcast will be thrilled to know this, that he called Chatham Dullesborough. So maybe we could use that as a title Yeah. For for this episode. So but but then after a day touring Chatham, aka Dullesborough, he left in a slightly more benignant mood.

他写道：'当我独自前往火车站赶火车时，我对杜勒斯伯勒的心情比一整天都要宽容。然而在我心中，我一整天也依然爱着它。啊，我凭什么因为这座城镇对我而言变了样就与之争执，当我自己归来时也已变得如此不同？我所有早期的阅读和想象都源于此地。我带走它们时充满纯真的建构与无邪的信念，而我带回它们时却如此磨损破碎，既更加睿智，又更加糟糕。'

So he wrote, when I went alone to the railway to catch my train, I was in a more charitable mood with Dullesboro than I had been all day. And yet in my heart, I had loved it all day too. Ah, who was I that I should quarrel with the town for being changed to me when I myself had come back so changed to it. All my early readings and early imaginations dated from this place. And I took them away so full of innocent construction and guileless belief, and I brought them back so worn and torn, so much the wiser and so much the worse.

哦，汤姆，这真是太美了。这段朗读很美。实际上这激发了我去查塔姆的愿望。所以我想我们应该从复兴屋出发了。不得不说这是多么惊人的房子，我们受到了多么隆重的款待。

Oh, Tom, that that's lovely. That's a lovely reading. And actually that inspires me to to go to Chatham. So I think we should head off from Restoration House. I have to say what an amazing house this is and how royally we've been looked after.

说真的，我认为毫不夸张地说，我从未到过一个历史底蕴如此深厚的地方，能让我如此享受，并且比复兴屋更长久地留在我的记忆中。

I actually I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say I don't think I've ever been to a location with the rest of history that I have enjoyed more and that will live in my memory for longer than Restoration Would

你知道，我坐在这里看着你。你坐在一把华丽的古董扶手椅上。身后是一座滴答作响的落地钟。我有点觉得《历史余味》的每次录制都应该有这种氛围。

you know, I'm I'm sat here looking at you. You're in a a magnificent period armchair. Behind you is a ticking grandfather clock. I kinda think you should have this vibe for every recording of The Rest is History.

我觉得我差不多已经有了这种氛围吧？难道没有吗？

I think I kind of do already. No?

我觉得你并不完全明白。

I don't think you do quite.

哦，真令人失望。不过，话说回来，谈到

Oh, disappointing. But, anyway, talking of

谈到积极氛围，咱们去查塔姆大街逛逛吧。

talking of positive vibes, let's head off to Chatham High Street.

本节目由Uber赞助播出。你是否体会过在急需时有人及时出现的感觉？我们有时都需要这种支持，Uber深谙此道。Uber不仅是接送服务或送餐，更是不管怎样都会如约而至的承诺。

This episode is brought to you by Uber. Now do you know that feeling when someone shows up for you when you need it most? We all need that sometimes, and Uber knows it. Uber isn't just a ride or a meal delivered. It's showing up no matter what.

就像为远方的朋友雪中送炭，生病时送去热汤，情绪低落时寄去鲜花。

Like for your long distance friends, bringing soup when they're sick, sending flowers when they're down.

在真正重要的时刻，无论何事，你总会挺身而出。只要有

When it really matters, whatever it is, you show up. Where there's a

需要，我们即刻出发。Uber，使命必达。立即下载应用。本节目由Folio Society赞助播出。

will, we're on our way. Uber, on our way. Download the app today. This episode is brought to you by the Folio Society.

托马斯，你知道，在中世纪，如果你是一名修士，制作一部手稿可能需要数年时间。你必须逐字逐句地抄写。完成这一切后，页边空白处会被装饰起来，你会加入各种装饰元素、金箔等等，让它看起来美轮美奂。

Now, Thomas, you know, in the Middle Ages, it could take you years if you're a monk to create a manuscript. You'd have to copy it out word by word. And then after all that, the margins would be ready and you'd put all kind of decorative elements and all kinds of gilt and stuff in the margins, it would look fantastic.

所以完成一部作品往往需要数年，但成品却能流传数百年。这基本上就是Folio Society今天所做的，当然，用的羊皮纸少一些，卷轴也少一些。

So it might take often years to finish, but the finished product would then last for centuries. And that is pretty much what the Folio Society does today, only, of course, with slightly less parchment and fewer coils.

是的。Folio Society选取了一些史上最伟大的作品，比如乔治·奥威尔的《一九八四》、JRR·托尔金的《魔戒》或弗兰克·赫伯特的《沙丘》。他们的编辑、设计师和工匠团队精心打造出如此精美的书籍，它们本身就是艺术品。

Yes. The Folio Society takes some of the greatest works ever written, things like George Orwell's nineteen eighty four or the the quests in JRR Tolkien or Frank Herbert's Dune. And their team of editors and designers and artisans, they craft books that are so beautiful. They're like works of art in their own right.

每一本书都经过精心设计，配有书套、获奖插画以及致敬内里故事的封面。这不仅仅是保护它们。

So each one is carefully designed with slip cases, award winning illustrations, and covers that honor the stories inside. It doesn't just protect them.

所以，如果你像我、像汤姆一样，认为一本书的外观应该和它的内容一样出色，那么Folio Society非常懂你的语言。

So if like me and like Tom, you think that a book should look as good as it reads, then the Folio Society very much speaks your language.

仅在foliosociety.com，探索以最美形式呈现的世界上最受喜爱的故事。

Explore the world's most loved stories in the most beautiful form only at foliosociety.com.

网址是foliosociety.com。欢迎回到《余下皆是历史》。非常激动的是，我们现在已经从罗切斯特来到了查塔姆。汤姆，让我们走上这个可爱的小坡，聊聊你为什么带我们来这里。

That is foliosociety.com. Welcome back to The Rest is History. And very excitingly, we have now moved from Rochester to Chatham. Tom, let's walk up this lovely little slope here and discuss why you brought us here.

嗯，多米尼克，如果你看这里，上面写着甘道夫路。所以我们就在甘道夫路上。甘道夫，节目的老朋友，皇家工程师的创始人，威廉一世的首选主教，设计了罗切斯特大教堂和城堡的人。他也接手了查塔姆，因为尽管查塔姆很大程度上是一个十八世纪、十九世纪的地方，那是它的鼎盛时期。

Well, Dominic, if you look here, it reads Gandalf Road. So we are on Gandalf Road. Gandalf, very much friend of the show, the founder of the Royal Engineers, William the first's go to bishop, the guy who designed Rochester Cathedral and the castle. And he got his hands on Chatham as well because although Chatham is very much a kind of eighteenth century, nineteenth century place. That's its heyday.

中世纪时这里有一个村庄，冈道夫为穷人和麻风病人建立了一家医院。他们会沿着河被带过来，河就在那边。然后会有一些特殊的通道从河边蜿蜒而上，把他们送到医院，因为没人想接触麻风病人，只有麻风病人被允许走这些通道。医院早已不复存在，但还有一个遗迹，就是我们正在看的这座小教堂。所以教堂的正面，很明显是非常维多利亚风格的。

There was a village here in the Middle Ages, and Gundell founded a hospital for the poor and leprous. And they would be brought along the river, which is just down there. And then there would be kind of special passageways that would thread up from the river to bring them to the hospital because nobody wanted to come in touch with a leper, and only the leprous were allowed to go up these. The hospital is long gone, but there is one remainder of it, and it is this chapel that we're looking at here. So the front of the chapel, clearly very Victorian.

这是由吉尔伯特·斯科特爵士设计的，他还设计了阿尔伯特纪念碑、外交和联邦事务部以及这些新哥特式维多利亚时代的伟大纪念碑。但是，如果我们绕到后面，我们会找到一点原始十二世纪教堂的痕迹。我喜欢想象，尽管我们身处查塔姆的中心，二十一世纪英国的喧嚣之中，也许在这座小教堂里面，有一个小小的避风港，一个对那个时代的提醒，我们将看看在里面能找到什么。你可以看到这个入口。这是东侧部分，仍然有一些原始十二世纪教堂的片段。

This is by sir Gilbert Scott who designed the Albert Memorial and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and, and these kind of great monuments of neo Gothic Victoriana. But, if we go around the back, we will find, a bit of the original twelfth century chapel. And I like to think that, even though we are here in heart of Chatham, the swirl of twenty first century Britain, maybe inside this chapel, there is a little haven, a little reminder of the age and of we will see what we find inside. You can see this entrance. This the eastern section, there are still bits of the original twelfth century chapel.

所以如果我们从这里进去，我们可以看到，你知道，因为我我想象这里会有一种幽静的宁静氛围，也许在查塔姆的喧嚣之中，提醒人们中世纪的灵性，我认为这对人们来说会非常感人。所以让我们去看看发生了什么。所以这这可能不是我完全预期的。所以我们也许应该向人们描述一下我们看到的景象。

So if we go in through here, we can see, you know because I I I imagine that there'll be a kind of a a mood of cloistered peace maybe amid the the hurly burly of Chatham, a a reminder of the spirituality of the middle ages, and I think it'll be very moving for people. So let's go and see what's going on. So this is this is maybe not quite what I was expecting. So we should we should maybe describe for people what we're seeing.

这在我看来非常能说明中世纪的灵性。大约有四个人在地上扭打和搏斗。所以如果你不是在Spotify或YouTube上观看，那就是我正在看的。基本上，某个人的大腿缠在另一个人的脖子上。

This to me very much speaks of medieval spirituality. There are about four people writhing and grappling on the ground. So if you can't if you're not watching on Spotify or YouTube, that's what I'm looking at. Basically, somebody's thighs and they're wrapped around another person's neck.

而在他们身后，有两块牌子写着“花岗岩健身房”。而这个古老的圣所，这个中世纪灵性的宝库，似乎变成了一个健身房。所以我想，这可能不是邓道夫主教想要的，但无论如何。是的。这就是进步。

And and behind behind them are two signs reading granite gym. And this ancient sanctuary, this repository of medieval spirituality seems to have become a a gym. So I like to think that this probably isn't what Bishop Dundolf wanted, but whatever. Yeah. It's progress.

我确信他当年也练过一点摔跤

I'm sure he did a bit of wrestling

和基督在这里。

with Christ here.

但是，多米尼克，这么说吧，哈利，你身后的那个，就是十二世纪小教堂的遗迹。

But, Dominic, just to say that is the so, Harry, behind you, that is what remains of the twelfth century chapel.

所以基本上，对于没在看的人，汤姆正指着一堵墙的一部分，那扇非常漂亮的窗户。我真的不知道该说什么了，汤姆。你想描述给听众听吗？

So basically, for those people not watching, Tom is pointing at a a bit of wall, the lovely lovely window. I don't know what else to say really, Tom. Do wanna describe listeners?

但我要说的是，并没有人在那下面扭打之类的。所以没有。但也许表现出了一点尊重。那里有一个沙发。

But what I will say is that there aren't people kind of wrestling underneath the under that. So No. But there is Maybe showing a bit of respect. There is a sofa.

有一个坏了的收银机。所以这很好。有的。

There is a broken till. So that's good. There is.

所以不管怎样，那是进步。

So anyway, that's progress.

所以我们穿过了街道，我们在时间上又向前推进了一点。所以我们现在正站在——这是说给那些没在YouTube或Spotify上看的人——我们正站在一些可爱的小砖砌联排房屋前面。而且，汤姆，这些房子建于1592年，并且，它们与都铎时期航海史上一个非常著名的名字有关联。

So we have crossed the street, and we've come a little bit further forward in time. So we're now standing for those people who are not watching on YouTube or Spotify. We are standing in front of some lovely little brick arms houses. And, Tom, these were built in 1592, and, they're associated with a very famous name in kind of Tudor seafaring history.

是的。这里是查塔姆的约翰·霍金斯爵士医院。这是最古老的皇家海军慈善机构，最古老的皇家海军医院，由弗朗西斯·德雷克爵士的表亲约翰·霍金斯爵士创立。他先是伊丽莎白女王的海军财务主管，后成为总监。他不仅对建立查塔姆基地，更对打造英国海军成为一支不可忽视的力量发挥了关键作用。

Yes. So, this is the hospital of sir John Hawkins in Chatham. It is the single oldest royal navy charity, the oldest, royal navy hospital, and it was founded by sir John Hawkins, who was a cousin of sir Francis Drake. He was first the treasurer of Elizabeth's navy, then its controller. He played a key role in establishing not just Chatham, but at the the English navy as a force to be reckoned with.

在他的遗嘱中，他拨出部分财产资助这家医院，这让他听起来像是历史上的好人。但有个小问题，约翰·霍金斯爵士医院的官网上暗示了这一点，承认霍金斯爵士资助医院的很多钱财来自奴隶贸易。因此医院声明，尽管这符合他当时的社会规范，但理事会完全承认这种卑劣行径的令人发指和残酷本质，并对约翰爵士的参与深表遗憾。然后话锋一转：然而，他是一位杰出的海员、航海家、海军管理者和海军退伍军人的捐助者。这两方面显然都是事实。

And in his will, he set aside some property to endow a hospital, which makes him sound one of history's good guys. But there is a slight complication which is hinted at at the on the the website for the hospital of sir John Hawkins, where it's con it confesses that a lot of the money that sir John Hawkins made, which enabled him to fund this hospital, was made in the slave trade. And so this disavowal is made, although not out of step with the societal norms of his time, the governors fully acknowledge the abhorrent and brutal nature of this vile activity and regret sir John's involvement profoundly. And then there's a kind of big, however, he was an outstanding seaman, navigator, naval administrator, and benefactor of naval veterans. And both of those things are clearly true.

没错。所以这绝对是那种集中体现英国矛盾心理和复杂性的地方。

Yep. And so this is absolutely the kind of place that focuses some of the ambivalences and complexities of Britain's

人人都喜欢关注矛盾心理，汤姆。而且他是对抗西班牙无敌舰队的大英雄，对吧？诸如此类。

Everybody loves focusing on ambivalence, Tom. And he's a great Spanish armada man, isn't he? All of that.

他很了不起。我是说，粗犷、留胡子什么的。你知道，玩滚木球，所有那些。是的。我的意思是，他是那种维多利亚时代的人非常崇拜的英雄。

He's great. I mean, roughs, roughs, beards Yeah. You know, playing bowls, all of that. Yes. I mean, he's you know, he he is one of the great kind of the Victorians loved him.

他们喜欢这样一种观念：伊丽莎白一世时代的

They loved the kind of idea that the sea dogs of under Elizabeth the first had been the prototype for

海上冒险家是英国海军的原型。这个地方有着悠久的海上冒险历史，不是吗？因为

for for Britain's Navy. This place had a tremendous history of sea doggery or sea dogging, didn't it? Because

这里有很多海狗行为

There's a lot of sea dogging going on

是的。他们这里有两位哥本哈根战役的老兵，还有一位特拉法加海战的老兵曾住在这里。是的。

there. Yeah. They had two veterans of the battle of Copenhagen Yeah. Who were here, and a a veteran of Trafalgar lived here. Yes.

对吧？

Right?

是的。一个叫亨利·道金斯的人曾在这里。你刚才说这是都铎时期建的，但这些并不是都铎风格的建筑。

Yes. A a guy called Henry Dawkins was was here. Now you said that this was built in the Tudor period. These are not Tudor buildings.

所以，实际上

So, actually,

它在1789年进行了重建。没错。然后在1980年代又进行了翻新，由王太后主持开幕。哦，真不错。所以这里有约翰·霍金斯，有法国大革命时期的再开发，还有王太后。

it it got rebuilt in 1789. Right. And then it got refurbished again in the nineteen eighties when it got opened by the Queen Mother. Oh, lovely. So so you've got John Hawkins, you've got redevelopment in the period of the French Revolution, and you've got the Queen Mother.

而且我认为，多米尼克，你会同意这是查塔姆高街众多瑰宝中的一颗。

And I think that, Dominic, you'd agree that this is one of the many jewels of Chatham High Street.

这就是英国历史的丰富画卷，对吧？但令人兴奋的是还有更多瑰宝，我觉得我们应该去看看。走吧。刚才那段太弱了。

That's the rich tapestry of British history. Right? But but the exciting news is there are more jewels, and I think we should go and look. So let's go. That was so weak.

Theo刚才的掌声真是有气无力，为我们开启这个新环节。Tom，说到码头区，我们自然会联想到酒吧，而眼前就有两家历史悠久、气势恢宏的酒馆。其中一家是北福伦酒吧。我想让大家了解你为这期节目所做的细致研究。是的。

So a really weak clap there from Theo to start this this new segment. Now, Tom, one of the things that we associate with Dockland areas, of course, is pubs, and we are looking at two splendid historic pubs. So one of them is the North Fallen. I just wanna give people an impression of the forensic research that you've brought to this episode. Yeah.

你的笔记上写着，纳尔逊将军据说曾在此饮酒。太棒了，这绝对是确有其事。我还读到它在1912年重建，2012年关闭。真是不可思议，没错。

So your notes say, Nelson reputedly drank here. So that's great. So that definitely happened. So I read that it was rebuilt in 1912 and shut in 2012. So an amazing Yeah.

我打赌你现在很庆幸看到了这个。想象一下，如果你一直被困在科茨沃尔德，永远无缘得见。但确实非常惊人

So I bet you're glad you've seen that now. Imagine if you've been stuck in the Cotswolds all this time and you never got to see that. But A really amazing

但是，Johnny，

But, Johnny,

还有更多呢，

there's more,

不是吗？是的，还有

isn't there? Yeah. There's

还有呢。你还没有喝够查塔姆大街提供的历史乐趣之杯。所以你想继续吗，还是笑得太厉害了？不，我笑得太厉害了，但我会继续的。

more. You you have not yet drunk your fill of the cup of historical delights that Chatham High Street has to offer. So do you wanna continue, or are you laughing too much? No. I'm laughing too much, but I will continue.

所以我们对面的是一家叫Ship Inn的店。我在汤姆的笔记里读到，汤姆写了这些字，说是全国最古老的同性恋酒吧之一。我觉得这绝对是真的。但他的引用来源是Kent Online。我笑得说不出话了。

So opposite us is something called the Ship Inn. And I read in Tom's notes, Tom's written the the words, one of the oldest gay pubs in the country. I think that's definitely true. But then his his citation comes from Kent. I'm laughing so much I can't speak.

Kent Online是一个非常可靠的来源。非常学术，经过同行评审。所以你想读一下Kent Online吗？是的。显然我觉得‘显然’这个词在这里承担了很大分量，不是吗？

Kent Online is a very reputable source. Very scholarly, peer reviewed. So do you wanna read that what Online. It Yeah. Apparently I feel like the word apparently is doing a lot of lifting better, doesn't it?

显然，酒保的伙伴最近编纂了罗切斯特大街的历史，并自豪地告诉我——这是Kent Online的撰稿人——这家酒吧有500多年的历史，是梅德韦最古老的Gabe酒吧。这绝对是真的。不仅如此，他还自信地宣称左边那个有砖墙壁纸的紫色舞吧，是亨利八世时代首次因鸡奸罪逮捕和定罪的地方。所以显然，这是根据酒保的伙伴说的。是的。

Apparently, the barter the bartender's mate recently compiled the history of Rochester High Street and proudly informed me, this is the writer from Kent online, that the pub is more than 500 years old and Medway's oldest Gabe. That's that's definitely true. Not only this, but he confidently declared that the purple dance bar on the left, complete with its brick look wallpaper, was the site of the first arrest and conviction for buggery way back in the days of Henry the eighth. So apparently, that is from according to the barman's mate. Yeah.

酒保的伙伴。但是，实际上，在我们身后有一些严肃的历史，尽管我在笑你那荒谬的研究。我希望你也投入了同等的努力。

The barman's mate. But, actually, there's some serious history behind us, much as I'm laughing about your ludicrous research. There's some serious history behind us that I'm hoping you've you've put some Yeah. An equal amount of effort into.

嗯，我我我其实，

Well, I I I'm I I actually,

你知道我在

do you know what I'm

要做什么？我要读一下这座建筑奠基石上的文字，上面写着：此奠基石由西蒙·马格努斯为纪念犹太会堂而立，以深情缅怀他备受哀悼的独子拉撒路·西蒙·马格努斯先生。因此，查塔姆高街上的一座犹太会堂提醒我们，除了酒吧之外，在码头区和船坞这类地方，你还会发现许多来自海外的人。犹太人是在17世纪中期被奥利弗·克伦威尔允许重返英格兰的。

gonna do? I'm gonna read from the foundation stone on this building, which reads, this foundation stone was laid by Simon Magnus for a memorial synagogue in affectionate remembrance of his much lamented and only son Lazarus Simon Magnus Esquire. So a synagogue on Chatham High Street is a reminder of the fact that as well as pubs, what you expect to find in, you know, Docklands and Dockyards and all that kind of thing is lots of people from overseas. And when the Jews were allowed back into England in the mid seventeenth century by Oliver Cromwell.

由节目的老朋友，奥利弗·克伦威尔。

By friend of the show, Oliver Cromwell.

虽然不是官方正式，但事实上，犹太人最早在伦敦以外定居的社区之一就在查塔姆，因为这里当时正在发展。它提供了与欧洲大陆其他犹太社区的联系。这座址上的第一座犹太会堂建于1750年，能够资助它的人之所以能做到，是因为他们帮助皇家海军的人将捕获的奖品出售变现，并从中抽取佣金。这笔佣金使他们得以资助第一座犹太会堂。但这座特定的犹太会堂于1869年开放，正如奠基石所说，它是由这个人的父亲西蒙·马格努斯建造的，他曾是肯特第四炮兵志愿队的上尉。

Although not officially, but effectively, one of the earliest communities outside London where Jews settled was was in Chatham because, of course, it was growing. It was provided links to all the other Jewish communities on the continent. And the first synagogue on this site was built in 1750, and the people who were able to fund it could do it because they were helping, people in the Royal Navy who had captured prizes to then kind of sell them to get to convert it into money, and they would take a cut. And that cut then enabled them to fund the first synagogue. But this particular synagogue opened in 1869, and it was, as the foundation said, it was built by the father of this guy, Simon Magnus, who had been, a captain in the fourth Kent artillery volunteers.

他还曾是伟大工程师伊桑巴德·金德姆·布鲁内尔的商业伙伴。所以，你知道，甘道夫、布鲁内尔，所有伟大的工程师，所有大人物都出现在这个故事中。我们之前提到过麻风病医院，以及那些从河边通往医院所在地的小径。其中有一条沿着犹太会堂的西侧延伸。

And he'd also been a business partner of Isambard Kingdom Brunel, the great engineer. So, you know, Gandalf, Brunel, all the great engineers All the big featuring Yeah. In this story. And we mentioned earlier about the the Leper Hospital and about how there are these, paths that go from the river up to where the hospital was. And there was one of them that went along the west side of the synagogue.

所以这是一条土地的自由保有权，至今仍然存在，你知道，他们无法购买它，直到今天，他们每年必须支付5便士的租金才能使用它。所以，这又是一个迷人的联系，将我们带回到中世纪起源。

So it was a kind of freehold of a strip of ground, which remains kind of you know, you could they could they couldn't buy it, and they have to this day, they have to pay a a rent to use it of 5 p per annum. So, again, a kind of fascinating link taking us back to the the medieval origins.

是的。更多关于这个世界这部分异常丰富和充满活力的历史。

Yeah. More of the of the extraordinary rich and vibrant history of this part of the world.

是的。绝对如此。而且这座犹太会堂至今仍然蓬勃发展。在两次世界大战期间，特别是在第二次世界大战中，它为经过查塔姆并在此工作的犹太军人提供了家园。所以我们谈到了纳尔逊。

Yes. Absolutely. And and this synagogue is is still going strong. And during both the wars, particularly in the Second World War, it provided a home for Jewish servicemen who passed through Chatham and were working here. So we've talked about Nelson.

我们之前谈到了第二次世界大战。而在查塔姆，纳尔逊与二战最明显的交汇点就是海军船坞——皇家船坞，这也是为什么这些不可思议的珍宝，多米尼克，会遍布查塔姆高街。所以我认为我们现在应该去那里。

We've talked about, the Second World War. And the obvious place in Chatham where Nelson and the Second World War could join is the naval dockyards, the royal dockyards, the reason that all these incredible treasures, Dominic, are lining Chatham High Street. So I think that we should go there now.

那就去吧。好的。现在如果你正在观看，你会看到我们已经移动到了一个非常、非常壮观的地方。汤姆，我们已经来到了查塔姆皇家船坞，并且正位于船坞的深处，一个我们稍后会揭晓的地方。这个船坞始建于1567年，并持续运营了多久？

Let's do that. Right. Now if you're watching this, you can see that we've moved location to somewhere very, very spectacular indeed. So, Tom, we have moved to Chatham's Royal Dockyard, and we're in the bowels of the dockyard and a place we'll reveal in a second. But so the dockyard is built in first opens in 1567 and lasts for what?

差不多414年。哇。好吧。是的。它在1984年关闭。

Just like fourteen years. Wow. Okay. Yeah. It closes in 1984.

所以你很喜欢这个地方。讽刺的是，当我们最初拍摄《历史的其余部分》时，你讨厌皇家海军。你讨厌船坞。我讨厌绳索。最重要的是，你讨厌绳索。

So you love this place. Now the irony is that when we first did the rest of history, you hated the Royal Navy. You hated dockyards. I hated rope. Above all, you hated rope.

是的。所以，为了道歉和贬低自己，你来到皇家船坞的制绳厂是再合适不过了。但在我们进入制绳厂之前，先跟我聊聊皇家船坞吧。

Yeah. So it's fitting that to apologize and to abase yourself, you have come to the ropery of the Royal Dockyard. But just to talk me about the Royal Dockyard before we get onto the ropery.

我确实非常喜欢查塔姆这里的船坞。原因在于，伟大的皇家海军历史学家NAM Roger曾用一句话形容，像朴茨茅斯、查塔姆这样的船坞，是‘十八世纪海洋中的十九世纪岛屿’。你实际上曾在这里拍摄过一部关于H·G·威尔斯的电视节目。我猜你来这里是因为它有一种科幻质感。这是一种技术领先于其历史背景的概念，因为这些地方太了不起了。

I do love the the the the dockyard here in Chatham. And the reason for that, it's a it's a phrase that NAM Roger, the great historian of the Royal Navy, expressed that the dockyards, Portsmouth, Chatham, places like that are nineteenth century islands in an eighteenth century sea. And you actually did you did a TV show here on HG Wells. And I guess you came here because that sense of it is has a science fiction quality. It's this idea of technology being ahead of the historical context because these are amazing places.

这些地方是地球上最致命的杀戮机器的研发地。主要是皇家海军的舰船，在414年的时间里，这里建造了超过500艘船，包括其中最著名的，HMS胜利号。

These are where the most lethal killing machines on the face of the planet are developed. Mainly the ships of the Royal Navy, of which over the course of the four hundred and fourteen years, over 500 ships are built here, including the most famous of all, HMS Victory.

是的。所以，汤姆，我们的老朋友丹尼尔·笛福对这个地方有强烈的看法，对吧？我知道你喜欢听丹尼尔·笛福的朗读，因为你非常欣赏他的口音。

Yeah. So, Tom, our old friend, Daniel Defoe, had strong views about this place, didn't he? So I know you love a Daniel Defoe reading because you admire his accent so much.

他说，造船厂、码头、木材场、木板场、桅杆场、枪炮场、制绳场，以及所有其他为海军工作而设的场地和场所，就像一个秩序井然的城市。现在你看到整个地方似乎处于极度的忙碌之中，却看不到任何混乱。每个人都清楚自己的职责。

He said, the building yards, the docks, timber yard, the deal yard, the masse yard, the gun yard, the rope walks, and all the other yards and places set apart for the works belonging to the navy are like a well ordered city. And now you see the whole place as it were in the utmost hurry, yet you see no confusion. Every man knows his own business.

是的。关键在于他当时谈论的是制绳场，而我们现在实际上就在制绳厂里。我的意思是，你提到了NAM Roger以及这里在18世纪却代表着19世纪的概念。在鼎盛时期，这个地方，制绳厂，可能是地球上最未来主义、技术和工业最先进的地方。而极具讽刺意味的是，当我们开始这个播客时，你说你最讨厌的就是海军用的绳子，然而你却选择了这个地方来做这期节目。你知道，基本上，这整期节目，甚至可能整个播客，都在为这一刻铺垫。

Yeah. Now the thing is he was talking about the rope walks, and we are actually in the ropery, which, I mean, you talked about NAM Roger and this idea of this being the nineteenth century in the eighteenth century. At its peak, this place, the ropery, was probably the most futuristic, the most technologically and industrially advanced place on the planet. Now the sublime irony of this is that when we started the podcast, you said there was nothing you hated more than naval rope, and yet you have chosen this place to do this. You know, basically, this entire episode, in fact, probably the whole of the podcast has been building to this moment.

好的。那么它到底是关于什么的？给我讲讲这个制绳厂吧。

Yeah. So what is it about? Tell me about the Rope Ry.

我为什么热爱制绳厂？它是英国最令人惊叹的历史建筑之一。它是纳尔逊时代、皇家海军崛起乃至全球霸权的一座伟大丰碑。正如你所说，它是在18世纪80年代、90年代建造的，是对未来的一瞥。它长1140英尺。建成时，它是英国最长的砖砌建筑。

Why do love the rope it's one of the most amazing historic structures in Britain. It's a great monument to the age of Nelson, to the rise of the Royal Navy, to global supremacy. And as you say, it is a glimpse of the future built in the seventeen eighties, seventeen nineties. It is 1,140 feet long. When it's built, it was the longest brick building in Britain.

它绝对令人惊叹。这里的一些机器，他们至今仍在用其制作绳索，你可以在附近买到，这些机器可以追溯到1806年。所以，如果你想体验一下是什么驱动了查塔姆、驱动了梅德韦河的这段流域、驱动了皇家海军，那么这里就是你要来的地方。

It is absolutely stupefying. And some of the machinery here where they still make rope to this day, you can buy it around the corner, it it dates back to eighteen o six. So if you want a flavor of what it was that powered Chatham, powered this stretch of the Medway, powered the Royal Navy, this is the place to come.

所以，从某种意义上说，汤姆，拿破仑战争是在这里赢得的。19世纪的不列颠治世是在这里确立的。这就是驱动这一切的力量。伟大的动力源——查塔姆造船厂的制绳厂、皇家海军、基础设施，这些就是英国强盛的命脉。当然，这种强盛一直持续到了20世纪中叶。

So in a way, Tom, this is where the Napoleonic Wars were won. This is where the the Pax Britannica of the nineteenth century was established. This is what's powering all that. The great dynamo, the ropery Chatham Dockyard, the Royal Navy, the infrastructure, the sinews of Britain's greatness. And, of course, that continues all the way through to the middle of the twentieth century.

我认为我们应该快进到第二次世界大战。我们应该离开这里，前往一个同样激动人心的历史遗址，那是一艘壮丽的战舰。我们这就去吧。

And I think we should fast forward to the second world war. And we should go out of here, and we should go to an equally exciting historical site, which is a splendid ship. Let's do that.

让我们以踏上英国战舰的金属甲板来结束这期播客。

Let's and we will be ending this podcast by treading the metal boards of a British battleship.

所以，汤姆，我们进行了一次史诗般的旅程，不是吗？穿越了罗切斯特和查塔姆。现在我们得出了一个震撼性的结论，因为我们深入查塔姆的船坞，正站在一艘二战战舰上。那么，给我讲讲这艘船吧，你为什么选择这里，再给我讲讲它的故事。

So, Tom, we've been on so, Tom, we've been on an epic journey, haven't we, through Rochester and Chatham? And now we've reached an earth shattering conclusion because we have come deep into the dockyard here at Chatham, and we are on a second world war battleship. So tell me a little Well about this ship and why you've chosen this, and tell me a little bit about his story.

好的。你知道我热爱二战时期的战舰。更准确地说，我热爱C级驱逐舰，也就是这艘HMS Cavalier号，这个名字我觉得查理二世会非常赞同。

Okay. Well, you know that I love a second world war battleship. Yeah. And to be more precise, I love a C class destroyer, which is what this ship HMS Cavalier, a name that I like to think Charles the second would very much have approved of.

是啊。鲁珀特亲王，查理一世，

Yeah. Prince Rupert, Charles the first,

他们都会喜欢的。他们都会爱上这个名字的。这就是它。

they'd all love that. They would all have loved it. That's what this is.

所以这是一艘C级驱逐舰。

So a c class destroyer.

你最喜欢哪种驱逐舰？什么级别的？

What what's what's your favorite kind of destroyer? What what class

你觉得呢？B级吧，可能是B级。好吧。

do think? B. Probably b class. Okay.

但C级也挺不错的。

But a c class is quite good.

我喜欢所有驱逐舰，但我的排名大概是前三名：C级、B级，可能还有A级。好吧，按这个顺序。

I like all destroyers and I but I'd probably rank top three c, b, probably a Okay. In that order.

另外，我觉得颜色也很漂亮。对于那些看不到的人来说，它是一种可爱的绿松石色，与我们身后中途岛河的绿松石色融为一体。天哪，太神奇了。总之，这就是画家的眼光，对吧？

And also, think also very nice is the the color. So for those who can't see it, it's kind of lovely turquoise and it blends in with the turquoise of the river Midway, which is behind us. Gosh. That's wild. So anyway, so That's a painterly eye, didn't you?

绝对是。这艘船是在二战期间下水的。它在挪威作战，加入了前往苏联再返回的护航队。

It absolutely is. So this ship is it was launched in the second world war. It fought in Norway. It fought it it joined a convoy going to The Soviet Union and back.

你说它。当然是“她”。

You say it. Surely. She.

她。然后她启航前往太平洋参加战争的最后阶段。这绝对是查塔姆在二战中角色的一个提醒。但我认为这艘船也是查塔姆衰落的纪念碑，因为这艘船在1970年代退役，而查塔姆船厂在1984年关闭。随着船坞的关闭，四百多年来塑造查塔姆特色的很多东西都结束了。

She. And then she sailed out to join in the final stages of the war in The Pacific. So absolutely a reminder of Chatham's role in the second world war. But I think that this ship is also a memorial to the decline of Chatham because this this ship got decommissioned in the nineteen seventies and Chatham gets decommissioned in 1984. And really with the closing of the docks, so much that have made Chatham Chatham for four hundred odd years ends.

所以在某种意义上，我们现在所处的地方既提醒着英国在二战时期的辉煌岁月，也提醒着随后的地缘政治和经济衰退

So in a sense, where we are now is a reminder both of Britain's glory days in the second world war, but also of the geopolitical and economic decline

没错。

Right.

从这个意义上说，我认为这里是结束这段旅程——你提到的奥德赛之旅——的完美地点。我们从铁器时代的山堡、罗马桥梁，一路走到了1980年代。

That followed. And in that sense, I think this is a perfect place to conclude the journey, the odyssey that you Yeah. You were talking about. So we've gone from Iron Age, Hillfort, Roman Bridge, and now we are in the nineteen eighties.

汤姆，从非常真实的意义上说，我们通过一个——我本来想说一个城镇，但实际上是两个城镇，罗切斯特和查塔姆——的故事涵盖了整个英国历史。

It's in a very real sense, Tom. We've covered all English history through the story of I was about to say one town, but really two towns, Rochester and Chatham.

是的。但是由一条主街连接在一起。

Yeah. But but joined by a single high street.

我们由一条主街连接在一起。我们不要以低调的调子结束。

We're joined by a single high street. And let's not end on a downbeat note.

不。

No.

因为我感觉我们从这次经历中获得的是对查塔姆极其丰富历史的感知，但我也学到了很多。你学到了什么，多米尼克？我学到的是查塔姆不仅仅是一个小镇，多米尼克。它是一个社区，我觉得这很美好。你呢？

Because I feel what we've gained from this is a sense of the extraordinarily rich history of Chatham, but also I've learned. What have you learned, Dominic? I've learned that Chatham is not just a town, Dominic. It's a community, and I think that's lovely. What about you?

是啊。我无法反驳这一点。我们受到了如此热情的欢迎。是的。我们就在街头。

Yeah. I can't argue with that. We've been we've been welcomed with such hospitality. Yeah. We're on the streets.

我认为我们从查塔姆学到了很多。从查塔姆的人民那里学到的。可能比收听这个播客的听众从我们这里学到的还要多。喜欢这样吗？我讨厌他们

I think we've learned a lot from Chatham. The people of Chatham. Probably more than the people listening to this podcast have learned from us. Do like that? I hate that they've

学到了东西，那就是去罗切斯特大街，沿着它走，到达查塔姆大街，然后来到码头，你会感到无比快乐。整个英国历史都在那里。

learned something, which is go to Rochester High Street, walk down it, get to Chatham High Street, then come to the docks and you couldn't be happier. That all of all of all of English history is there.

在这个惊人的重磅消息上，我们或许该向查塔姆告别，向罗切斯特告别，也向听众们告别了。再见。再见。

On that shocking bombshell, we should probably say goodbye to Chatham, goodbye to Rochester, and goodbye to the listeners. Goodbye. Goodbye.