#214：如何设计人生 - 黛比·米尔曼

嘿，各位。我是蒂姆。在开始之前，先快速提醒一下。我与'爆炸猫'团队合作开发的新卡牌游戏《土狼》现在已经是全国畅销品了，情况简直疯狂到不行。

Hey, folks. Tim here. Before we get started, just a quick heads up. My new card game, Coyote, which I made with the amazing people at Exploding Kittens, is now a national bestseller. Things are going completely bananas.

它刚刚在全渠道上线——亚马逊、沃尔玛、Target等8000多家零售店，所有能买到桌游的地方都能找到。快去coyotegame.com看游戏视频吧，目前已有3亿次社交平台观看量，简直令人难以置信。

It just launched everywhere. Amazon, Walmart, Target, 8,000 plus retail locations, anywhere you can buy games. So check it out, see some videos of gameplay at coyotegame.com. 300,000,000 social views so far of gameplay. It's kind of mind blowing.

几分钟就能学会玩法，我保证能让你们开怀大笑。这个项目我们打磨了两年，请尽情享受，快去试试看。

Takes just minutes to learn. I guarantee you'll have a lot of laughs. This has been in the works for two years. Please enjoy it. Check it out.

访问coyotegame.com。现在回到正题——极致精简。在这个海拔高度，我能全速冲刺半英里才会手抖。我能回答你的...

Coyotegame.com. Now back to the episode. Optimal minimal. At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. Can I answer your

私人问题？不行。我们只是恰好坐在对的时机里。

personal question? No. We're just sitting at the right time.

我是个生化电子人，活在金属内骨骼构筑的节目里。至少目前想不到什么缺点。女士们先生们好，我是蒂姆·费里斯，欢迎收听新一期《蒂姆·费里斯秀》。每期节目中，我的工作就是解构各类顶尖人物——从娱乐明星、运动员、棋手到军事专家等等——提炼出可供你实践检验的习惯、思维模式和决策方法。本期我们准备了非常特别的盛宴，事先声明：我们会涉及一些极其深刻、艰难且敏感的内容。

I'm a cybernetic organism, living this show where metal endoskeleton. There's no downside that I can think of. Hello, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss, and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss show where it is my job each episode to deconstruct world class performers of all different types from entertainment to sports, chess, military, and everything in between to tease out the habits, routines, thought processes, decision making processes that you can use and test yourself. This episode, we have a very, very special treat, and I will say in advance, we cover some very, very deep, hard, and also sensitive material in this episode.

对某些听众而言，这可能会成为你们听过最重要的播客节目——这与我无关，完全源于黛比·米尔曼的故事与智慧。这位推特账号@DebbieMillman的设计师被《美国平面设计》评为'当代最具影响力的设计师'，她创办并主持着设计界历史最悠久的播客《设计重要》，采访过近300位设计大师与文化评论家，包括马西莫·维涅利、米尔顿·格拉瑟（注意拼写带s）等——记住这个名字。

For some people who listen to this, it will be, I think, the most important podcast episode you ever listen to, and that has nothing to do with me. It has everything to do with the stories and lessons of Debbie Millman. At Debbie Millman on Twitter and elsewhere, you can say hello, is, quote, one of the most influential designers working today, end quote, by Graphic Design USA. She is also the founder and host of Design Matters, which is the world's first and longest running podcast about design. She's interviewed nearly 300 design luminaries and cultural commentators, including Massimo Vignelli, Milton Glaser with an s, and, remember that name.

他会回来的。她的艺术作品曾在世界各地展出。从包装纸到沙滩浴巾，从贺卡到扑克牌，从笔记本到T恤衫，她设计过各种产品。如果你听说过《星球大战》，没错，她参与了周边商品的设计。还有汉堡王、品牌重塑、好时巧克力、纯果乐果汁。

He will come back. Her artwork has been exhibited around the world. She's designed everything from wrapping paper to beach towels, greeting cards to playing cards, notebooks to T shirts. And if you've heard of, say, Star Wars, well, she worked on the merchandising. Burger King, the redesign, Hershey's, Tropicana.

曾几何时，如果你走进任何一家杂货店或超市之类的场所，你看到或触摸到的物品中，约有20%都有她的参与。她是美国平面设计协会的名誉主席，是该组织百年历史中五位担任此职的女性之一。她著有六本书。2009年2月，黛比与史蒂文·海勒共同创办了全球首个品牌设计硕士项目，设在纽约视觉艺术学院——我曾在那里度过一段时间。如今该项目已进入第八年，获得了国际赞誉。

At one point, if you walked into any given grocery store or, say, supermarket, anything like that, she had a hand in about 20% of everything you might see or touch. She is the president emeritus of AIGA, one of five women to hold that position in the organization's one hundred year history. She has six books that she has authored. And in 02/2009, Debbie cofounded with Steven Heller the world's first master's program in branding at the School of Visual Arts in New York City where I've spent some time. Now in its eighth year, the program has achieved international acclaim.

我们谈了很多内容。涉及如何面对拒绝，如何克服个人与职业的信仰危机，这是我在这档播客中进行过的最有力量的对话之一。闲话少叙，请尽情聆听并深入思考、反思这场与黛比·米尔曼的对话。黛比，欢迎来到节目。

We cover a lot. We cover facing rejection, overcoming personal and professional crises of faith, and, this is one of the most powerful conversations that I've ever had on this podcast. So without further ado, please enjoy and think hard on, reflect on this conversation with Debbie Millman. Debbie, welcome to the show.

谢谢你，蒂姆。能来到这里真的非常棒。

Thank you, Tim. It's really wonderful to be here.

过去几年里，我多次想采访你，所以今天我们终于能实现这个愿望，我太激动了。第一点。我想用一个问题开始——像你这样以多种形式探索过如此多领域的人，当有人在派对上问你'你是做什么的'时，你会怎么回答？

I have wanted to interview you on numerous occasions now over the last few years, so I'm thrilled that we are finally doing this. Point number one. And I thought I would start with a question that someone like yourself who has explored so many different things in so many different formats. When someone asks you what do you do, let's say you meet someone at a party, they say, do you do? What is your answer to that?

这是个难题。我该怎么说呢？现在我通常说自己是设计师。有时如果我想多说几句，就会说我是设计师、作家兼播客主。然后有些人会一脸困惑地看着我，好像在说：'头衔也太多了吧'

That's a tough question. What do I say? Well, I now I say that I'm a designer. And sometimes if I'm feeling wordy, I'll say that I'm a designer and a writer and a podcaster. And sometimes people look at me like, Like, you'd Lot of

太多斜杠了。这是什么意思？

too many hyphens. What does that mean?

确实如此。我在Sterling Brands工作了二十多年，后来在填写护照申请表等场合时，我决定简单写‘高管’这个头衔，这很合理。

Exactly. I found when I was working at Sterling Brands, which I did for over two decades, I had resolved to just saying when I was filling out what I did on passport applications and thus and and things like that, I used to say executive, and that made sense.

‘前高管’是个很通用的说法，你可以用。

Ex executive's a great catch all you can use.

‘高管’确实是个通用头衔。我在Twitter上长期用‘女孩黛比·米尔曼’这个描述，直到很多人说‘黛比，你真该改改了’，我才改过来。

Executive is a great catch all. For a long time on Twitter, I had Debbie Millman as a girl until enough people said, Debbie, you've really gotta change that. And and then I did.

哦，互联网啊。你可以在上面写任何东西，但大概10%看到的人总会因为各种原因感到愤怒。

Oh, the Internet. Well, you can put anything there, and I think about 10% of the people who come across it will be outraged for one reason or another.

没错。我发现让某些人欣喜若狂的事物，恰恰正是激怒另一些人的东西。要时刻取悦所有人真的很难。

Oh, yes. I found that the very things that delight and excite some people are the same exact things that outrage others. It's really hard to please everybody all the time.

是啊。我觉得如果总想讨好所有人，最终只会不断委屈自己。这是唯一确定的结果。

Yeah. You I think that if you try to please all the people all the time, you'll just end up displeasing yourself all the time. That's the that's the only guaranteed outcome there.

哦，蒂姆，这个教训我可是付出了代价才明白的。

Oh, Tim. I learned that the hard way.

好吧，黛比，我有好多话题想聊，但让我们先从这里开始——考虑到听众可能好奇，我总是提前询问嘉宾：有没有什么特别的故事线索我们可以挖掘，可能会很有趣？其中一个就是你八岁时画的画。我对这个一无所知，所以想从这里开始，毕竟从源头讲起似乎最合理。

Well, I wanna talk about so many things, Debbie, but let's start with and for those people wondering, I I always ask my guests beforehand, are there any particular, say, prompts for stories that we could explore that that that might be fun to dig into? And one of them was drawing you did when eight years old. And so I know nothing about this, and I just want to start there since it seems to make sense to begin at the beginning.

其实我有点囤积癖。我喜欢保存东西，骨子里是个怀旧的人，爱保留人生各个阶段的物品。我有好几箱日记、画作、成绩单，应有尽有。显然这个习惯遗传自我母亲，几年前她做了很多老派犹太人都会做的事——

Well, I have a, somewhat of a pack rat mentality. I keep things. I am I'm a sentimentalist at heart, and I, like to keep things from all different stages of my life, and I have boxes of journals and drawings and all sorts of report cards. And you name it, I have it. Well, apparently, I I got this trait from my mother who, a couple of years ago, did what a lot of good old Jews do.

她从纽约皇后区搬到了佛罗里达州。

She moved from Queens, New York to Florida.

伟大的迁徙啊，没错。

The great migration. Yes.

搬家前，她处理了好几箱偷偷替我保存的旧物。我小心翼翼地翻看这些叠得整整齐齐的东西时，发现了一幅八岁左右的画作。欣赏自己的'杰作'时我不禁感叹：天啊，八岁的我——

And before she moved, she unloaded several boxes of ephemera of mine that she had kept unbeknownst to me. And I went through everything quite gingerly. It was all sort of folded up very neatly and very tidally and came across an illustration that I did when I was about eight years old. And after I admired my handiwork because I thought, wow. Eight years old.

画得简直出神入化。后来我意识到这幅画预言了我整个人生。我会尽量解释清楚这幅画，先说说背景：我是土生土长的纽约人，出生在布鲁克林。

I was I was, like, rocking the drawings. I realized that that this particular drawing had predicted my whole life. And and so I will explain I will try to explain this drawing as best as I can. And and for some backstory, I am a native New Yorker. I was born in Brooklyn.

大约两岁时，父母带我到皇后区的霍华德海滩居住，那时连人行道都还没有——这大概能让你猜出我的年纪。我在那里住到三年级中期，然后搬去史坦顿岛，一直住到五年级结束。

When I was about two years old, my parents took me to Howard Beach, Queens. I moved there before there were any sidewalks. That that will give you a a little bit of a sense of how old I am. I lived there until I was about was I was in the middle of a third grade, and we moved to Staten Island. And I lived on Staten Island until I was in the fifth grade, end of fifth grade.

我父母离婚了。妈妈带着我和弟弟搬去了长岛，他比我小两岁半。我的童年几乎在纽约所有行政区度过，除了曼哈顿。不知为何，我大概通过电视对曼哈顿的模样和氛围有了某种感知。

My parents got divorced. My mom took my brother and I. He's two and a half he's two and a half years younger than I am to Long Island. My childhood was spent in almost all of the boroughs except Manhattan. And for some reason, I had a, I guess, a sense of what Manhattan looked like and felt like probably from television.

八岁那年，我画了一幅曼哈顿街景。画中的我是个牵着妈妈手的小女孩。顺便说，我妈妈穿着当时很流行的芭比套装——一款叫‘橘色梦境’的装扮，我特别喜欢。

And at eight years old, I draw I drew a picture of the streets of Manhattan. I'm walking. I'm a little girl. I'm walking along with my mother. My mother, by the way, is wearing a very popular Barbie outfit of the time, an outfit called tangerine dream, which I I really loved.

我给她画上了那套衣服。尽管没怎么去过曼哈顿街头，我却画得相当细致：建筑物、公交车、出租车，我还给所有东西都标了标签——洗衣店标‘洗衣店’，银行标‘银行’，出租车标‘出租车’。街道中央还停着一辆送货卡车。

I I put her in that outfit. And and despite not having a lot of time on the streets or any time on the streets of Manhattan, I I drew it quite in quite good detail. There were buildings and buses and taxis, and I labeled everything. I labeled the cleaners cleaners, and I labeled the bank bank, and I labeled the taxi taxi. In the middle of the street, there is a delivery truck.

我不但标注了送货卡车，还画出了车身上的广告牌——乐事薯片的标志。八岁的我画出了这个商标。当我重看这幅画时，发现它预言了我整个人生：如今我是土生土长的纽约客，在曼哈顿住了三十三年。

And I not only labeled the the delivery truck, I also drew the sign on the delivery truck, and the sign was Lay's potato chips. I drew the logo at eight years old. And when I saw this drawing, I realized that I had predicted my whole life. I'm a native New Yorker now living in Manhattan. I've been living in Manhattan for thirty three years.

我去银行、去洗衣店、常乘出租车和公交。发现这幅画时，我正以设计商标为生。早知道按着画中轨迹生活这么简单，我本可以省去几十年试错与碰壁的时光。

I go to the bank. I go to the cleaners. I take lots of taxis, lots of buses. And at the time I found this drawing, I was drawing logos for a living. And and, you know, had I known that it would have been that easy just to follow that drawing, I would have saved decades of experiments in failure and rejection.

这让我觉得特别有意思，原因有很多。我播客请过几位嘉宾，比如投资人克里斯·萨卡，他曾在日记本里写过——

So so this this is is fascinating to me for a number of reasons. I've had a few guests on the podcast. Chris Saka would be another example. He's an investor. And he, at some point, wrote in a journal.

我记得是那种黑白色斑马纹封面的作文笔记本

Well, I think it was one of these composition notebooks with the sort of modeled black and white zebra camouflage covers

哦，我超爱那些东西。

Oh, I love those.

他四十岁时会成为什么样的人。他大概是在十岁或十二岁左右画下这幅画的。后来他大概在四十二岁左右在父母的车库里发现了它。这幅画精准预言了他最终从事的职业，但这份预言在人生洪流中被遗忘了，他兜兜转转走过一条看似支离破碎的奇特道路，某种意义上又回到了原点。听起来你后来并没有遵循这幅画里简洁概括的人生规划？因为有些人会说'我五岁时就知道自己注定要成为某某'。

What he would be when he was 40 years old. And he must have done this when he was 10 or 12, something like that. And he found it in his, I think, parents' garage later around the age of 42 or something like that. And it also predicted effectively exactly what he would be doing, but it was lost in the slipstream, and he took this very meandering, in some ways odd, seemingly fractured path to come right back to where he started in a sense. Did you then it sounds like you didn't follow that plan that had was so neatly summarized in this picture because there are folks out say, you know, when I was five, I knew I always wanted to be x.

但你的——或者说，你是什么时候意识到自己某种程度上确实想成为画中那个设计师的？

But what was your or should I say, when did you figure out that you wanted to actually do what was in that drawing on some level that you wanted to be a designer?

其实我从未立志成为设计师。我原以为自己会当记者。大学期间唯一确定的是毕业后要住在曼哈顿。那时我从未在曼哈顿生活过，这就是我的终极梦想。1983年，我来到了曼哈顿。

I actually never set out to be a designer. I thought that I was going to be a journalist. The only thing that I knew for sure when I was in college was that when I graduated, I wanted to live in Manhattan. At that point, I had not ever lived in Manhattan, and that was my big dream. And I came to Manhattan the 1983.

我常说那是大卫·鲍伊《Modern Love》和警察乐队《Synchronicity》的夏天。那年我看了他们两场的演唱会。我和刚毕业的朋友合租了转租公寓，她在西村Hudson街与Perry街转角处找到的房子。当时我不知道，住进这个十字路口的公寓简直像闯进了电影《Gidget Goes to Manhattan》的场景。

I often say that that was the summer of David Bowie's modern love and the police's synchronicity. I saw both concerts that summer. I moved into a sublet apartment with a friend that had also recently graduated. She had found a sublet on the corner of Hudson And Perry Streets in the village. I didn't know it at the time, but moving into an apartment on the intersection of Hudson And Perry was almost as if I was entering the movie Gidget goes to Manhattan.

我完全不知前路何方，一切纯属机缘巧合。房子是朋友杰伊找的。可惜那个美好夏天结局惨淡——转租给我们的女房东把我们的租金私吞了，没交给房主。夏天结束时我们全被扫地出门。

I didn't know where I was going. I it was quite serendipitous. My friend Jay found the apartment for us. Unfortunately, that wonderful summer, turned out rather unfortunate because the woman who Jay and I were subletting from was rather than paying the rent with the rent money that she was getting from us was keeping it and not paying the rent. So at the end of the summer, we all got evicted.

结果出乎意料。我哀求房东帮我另寻住处，因为实在无处可去。最后他把自己在十六街另一栋楼的公寓租给了我，那是栋四层无电梯旧楼，我负担不起整间铁路公寓，只好和一对情侣合住——因为是直通式户型，我的室友是一对情侣。

And Surprise. Yeah. I ended up appealing to the, the landlord to please, please help me find someplace else to live because I really didn't have any place else to go. And he ended up, being able to rent me another one of the apartments he had in another building he owned on Sixteenth Street, which was a Fourth Floor tenement walk up, a railroad flat that I couldn't afford on my own and ended up living with, a couple. A room my roommates were a couple because it was a railroad flat.

我必须穿过公寓才能到达自己的房间，这意味着要经过他们的卧室，这常常让我被困在某一侧，具体取决于——被困住什么？是夜间习惯还是午后欢愉，取决于他们正在做什么。我在那里住了大约五年，之后短暂搬回了村庄。那时我就知道自己想住在曼哈顿。直到大学四年级，我才知道设计可以是一门专业，甚至不知道自己能成为设计师或将会成为设计师。在我就读的纽约州立大学奥尔巴尼分校，我逐渐晋升为学生报纸艺术与特写版的编辑，很快意识到尽管我热爱分配文章和构思版面主题。

I had to walk through the apartment, which meant through their bedroom to get to mine, which often meant I was stuck on one side or the other depending on What was stuck on? Nocturnal habits or afternoon delight depending on, you know, what they were doing, and and lived there for about five years before I ended up moving back into the village for a short period of time. So that was the one thing I knew that I wanted to live in Manhattan. I did not know that I could be a designer, that I would be a designer, and or that design was even a discipline until my senior year of college. I had worked my way up to be the editor of the arts and features section of the student newspaper at SUNY Albany where I went to school and realized very quickly that as much as I loved assigning articles and coming up with themes for this section of the newspaper.

我对排版和设计报纸无比着迷，就这样，一个设计新手诞生了。大学期间我只上过一门设计课，当时几乎所有的知识都是在新闻编辑室工作、排版报纸时学到的。一切都采用传统方式完成：老式排版、工资单、CompuGraphic排版机、stat相机。毕业后头几年，我同时从事自由编辑和自由排版工作。

I was endlessly fascinated by putting the paper together, by designing the paper, and thus, a baby designer was born. I took all of one class in design while I was in in college and really learned almost everything I knew at that time working in the newsroom, putting the paper together. Everything was done, old school layout, pay stub, CompuGraphic machines, stat cameras. And then when I graduated, was both doing freelance editorial and freelance layout and pay stub, for the first couple of years of my career.

你是什么时候开始在学生报社工作的？是从一开始就参与并贯穿整个本科阶段吗？

When did you start at the student newspaper? Was that something you started at the very beginning and followed throughout your, I guess, undergrad experience?

这是个有趣且敏锐的问题，Tim。我想从大一在纽约州立大学奥尔巴尼分校看到第一期学生报时，就渴望为其撰稿。我去了位于校园中心三楼的学生报社，找到当时的编辑毛遂自荐。他看着我问我有没有'clips'，我当时内心想着——发夹吗？完全不明白他的意思。

Interesting and perceptive question, Tim. I wanted to write for the student newspaper, I think, the very first issue I saw when I got to SUNY Albany freshman year and went up to the student newspaper, which was on the Third Floor of the campus center, and approached the editor at the time and asked if I could be a writer or offered my services volunteered my my my services. And he looked at me and asked me if I had any clips. And I was like you know, I didn't say what I was thinking, but, like, hair clips? I mean, I didn't know what he's talking about.

我什么都没有，不知所措，感到尴尬、羞辱和惭愧，像只松鼠般溜走了，直到大三才敢回去。那个新闻编辑室产出的才华和作品让我望而生畏，它当时（现在可能仍是）全国最优秀的学生报纸之一。我每周二周五都会去，完全被这份报纸迷住了。

And I didn't have anything, and I didn't know what to do. And I was embarrassed and humiliated and ashamed and sort of squirrels you know, scurried away and didn't go back until my junior year. I was so intimidated by the talent and the work that was coming out of that newsroom. And it was at the time and very well may still be one of the best student newspapers in the country. And I I came up twice a week, Tuesdays and Fridays, and I would I was just enamored with this newspaper.

我曾幻想给主编写些精辟渊博的读者来信，发表后他们会发现我的写作才华，然后邀请我当记者。我幻想象Rosalyn Russell那样耳朵后别着铅笔，高跟鞋在新闻编辑室咔咔作响。当然这从未实现——我连一封读者来信都没写过。大三下学期某个反常的勇敢时刻，我重回编辑室，当时正逢女性抗议活动。

And I fantasized about writing really pithy erudite letters to the editor in chief that would then get published in in, you know, the letters to the editor section, and they would realize what a great writer I was and then invite me to be a reporter. And I'd sort of walk around like Rosalyn Russell with a pencil behind my ear and my heels click clacking in the newsroom. And, of course, that never happened. I I never wrote one letter to the editor. And for some reason, in, I guess, an aberrant moment of courage, I went back up to the newsroom my second semester junior year, and there was a a women's uprising.

学生们去了校园健康食品店，他们问我能否去报道。我立刻答应了，这就是我为报纸撰稿的开端。后来我还写了一篇关于艺术中心展览的文章。

And the student went to the student health health food store, and they were like, could you go cover that? And I was like, yeah. Absolutely. And I went and did it, and and that was how I started writing for the paper. I then wrote a piece about an exhibit in the art center.

在我大三第二学期末，仅仅因为我觉得没人会接手，我被提供了艺术与特写版块编辑的职位，并在那个夏天开始了工作。大学最后一年是我人生中最激动人心、最美好的时光之一，因为那是我第一次感到自己有了目标。突然投身这份报纸工作，让我感觉自己成为了比自身更宏大事物的一部分。我第一次感到自己存在的意义，并且爱上了学习设计的过程。我享受与作家们共事的机会，这是我生命中首次对某件事物感到真正的兴奋。

And by the end of my second semester junior year, only because I think no one else would take it, I was offered the job of being editor of the arts and features section and and began that that summer. That senior year in college was one of the most exciting and best years of my life in that for the first time ever, I felt like I had purpose. Suddenly working on this paper, I felt like I was something I was part of something bigger than myself. I felt like I was I had some reason for being, and I loved learning about design. I loved being able to work with writers, and I felt for the first time in my life really excited about something.

我想谈谈那个反常的勇气时刻并深入探讨一下。你最初接触报社时被拒绝了，或者可能自己也放弃了，又或者两者都有。多年后，你却出现了这个反常的勇气时刻。是什么促成了这个转变？是某次谈话还是顿悟？

I wanna talk about that aberrant moment of courage and dig into that a bit. So you were rejected from or maybe rejected yourself or both initially when you approached the paper. Then years later, you have this aberrant moment of courage. What precipitated that? Was there a conversation, realization?

你看了部电影。是什么触发了这个改变？还记得吗？

You watched a movie. What triggered that? Do you remember?

实际上我不记得了。真希望我记得，这样故事会更精彩，采访也会更出色。但我能告诉你的是，这么多年后，我注意到自己生活中存在一种模式：我很容易被最初的反应或拒绝所伤害，以至于这种伤害会长期阻碍我再次尝试类似的事情。我极度敏感，任何拒绝都会让我偏离原本的道路。

I actually don't. I I wish that I did. It would make it for a much better story and certainly a better interview. But I what I can tell you is that all these years later, I have noticed a pattern in my life of being very easily hurt by an initial reaction or an initial rejection so much so that it thwarts any other attempt at making something like that happen for a very long time. I am extremely sensitive, and any rejection sort of takes me off of that path.

往往需要很长时间我才能恢复过来。

For quite a long time, it takes me a while to recover.

能举些具体例子吗？

Could you give any examples of that?

可以说我整个人生都是例子。我能给你举43个例子。坐稳了，蒂姆。

I would say my entire life. I will give you I can give you 43 examples. Get get comfortable, Tim.

我我我我...是的。我确实正喝着水安顿下来。我准备好了。

I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm yeah. I'm definitely settling in with my water. I'm ready to go.

那时我被拒绝了。大学第一年之后，我花了三年时间才重返校园。可能因为生活中其他方面进展顺利让我有了信心，想着：管他呢？为何不回去再试一次？于是我一步步走向校园中心，再次登上三楼提出申请。

Well, there I was rejected. That first year of college took me then three years to to go back again. I might have been feeling confident about something else that had gone well in my life and thought, what the heck? Why not go back and try? And and then took those steps up to the campus center and went back up to the Third Floor and asked again.

我是个很难接受拒绝的人，但需要很长时间才能重整旗鼓继续尝试。毕业时因为找不到真心喜爱的工作，也因迷茫人生方向，我不断在不同机会间辗转。每次尝试新事物最终被拒时，第一次拒绝总像免责通行证，让我逃避再次尝试。所以毕业后，我先后在几家报社工作——不是杂志社。

I am somebody that has a very hard time taking no for an answer, but it takes me a long time to recalibrate and get my courage back to continue to keep trying. And when I graduated, because I had such a hard time finding a job initially that I really loved and because I was having so much trouble figuring out what I wanted to do with my life, I kept bouncing around from opportunity to opportunity. And every time I would try something new and would ultimately get rejected, I used that first rejection almost as a permission slip to avoid having to try again. So when I graduated, I I started working at a couple of different newspapers. I'm not magazines.

我曾为有线电视杂志工作，也为摇滚杂志做过排版、薪资单和编辑。当时想着：虽然乐在其中，但自觉能力不足。或许该回校攻读新闻学硕士。我家附近就有顶尖的新闻学院——哥伦比亚大学新闻学院。我父亲曾在哥大攻读药剂学，我想：何不申请试试？

I worked for a cable magazine, and I worked for a rock magazine doing layout and pay stub and some editing. And at the time thought, oh, I'm really enjoying this, but I don't really feel qualified to be doing this. Maybe I should go back to school and get a master's degree in journalism. And I lived in the neighborhood of a very good journalism school, the Columbia School of Journalism. And my dad had gone to Columbia and studied pharmacy, and I thought, why not apply to the Columbia School of Journalism?

但那是我唯一申请的学校。虽然纽约有很多优秀新闻学院，我却莫名认准这一所。结果未被录取，于是放弃了攻读新闻学硕士的希望和梦想。

But that was the only school I applied to. I thought, you know, I wanna consider getting a master's degree in journalism. There are a lot of good journalism schools in New York City, but for some reason, I had my heart set on this one school. I didn't get in. I got rejected and abandoned my hopes or dream of of going to get a master's degree in journalism.

不久后，由于我同时是画家，作品入选了长岛大学布鲁克林校区的展览并获得好评，我又想：或许该成为艺术家？我热爱创作，也获得积极反馈，但自觉专业素养不足。于是申请了惠特尼艺术学院。

Shortly thereafter, because I also am a painter, I had been accepted into, a show at Long Island University, the Brooklyn campus, and got some good reviews and thought, maybe I should become an artist. I I love doing this. I'm I'm getting some good response from it, but I don't feel qualified or or educated enough. Maybe I should get an advanced degree in art. And I applied to the Whitney School.

惠特尼博物馆当时有个允许白天工作的独立研究项目。我带着优秀的推荐信和作品集申请，却再次遭拒，只得放弃这个梦想。这一路走来，总是尝试→早遭拒绝→退缩→舔舐伤口重拾信心→再尝试其他方向或重新出发。

The Whitney Museum of Art had an independent study program that would allow me to continue working during the day. I applied for that. I had really good references, wonderful clips at that point, you know, some good reviews, and got rejected to that and then abandoned that dream. And so it's been a a long history of making an attempt, getting that early rejection, retreating, and then finally sort of licking my wounds, re sort of knitting my confidence or hopes and dreams together, and then trying to do something else or trying again.

那么有几个问题。第一个是，在报社遭遇第一次拒绝后，你会对大学时的自己说些什么？或者你会给一个经历几乎相同、性格相似的人什么建议？

So a few questions. The first is, what would you have or what would you say to your college self after that first rejection at the newspaper? Or what advice would you give someone who had the near identical experience and was hardwired the same way?

嗯，这是个有趣的问题，蒂姆，因为我有后见之明的优势。回顾那些年，是的，我本可以更早地再次尝试，也许能在那个新闻编辑室和环境中获得更多实验、成长和学习的机会。但我也认为，那些年间以其他方式学习和成长的经历，为我后来被任命为艺术与特写版块编辑时提供了更多可借鉴的经验。也许这只是我自己在合成幸福，或是调整到自己的设定点，或是回望过去时觉得一切还算顺利。所以为什么要给别人我当时自己都不一定会接受的建议呢？

Well, it's an interesting question, Tim, because I have the benefit of hindsight. And looking back on those years, yes, I certainly could have tried again sooner and maybe had more of a runway to experiment and grow and learn in that newsroom and in that environment. But I also think that those years in between learning and growing in other ways contributed to my ability to then when appointed the editor of the arts and features section, I somehow had a lot more to pull from. And maybe this is my own sort of synthesizing happiness or or calibrating to my own set point or looking back and thinking, well, it all sort of worked out. So why give somebody advice that I wouldn't have necessarily taken at that point?

我想说的是，永远不要接受第一次拒绝。给自己选择的机会。那些选择的时机或重试的时机，按你自己的节奏来。你不是在和别人竞争，而是在和自己竞争。所以如果你被拒绝了你想要的东西，那就思考是什么导致了这次拒绝，并努力理解如何在下次尝试时展现出最好的自己。

What I what I would say is don't accept the first rejection ever. Give yourself options. The timeliness of those options or the timeliness of those retries, do at your own pace. You don't you're not in competition with anybody but yourself. So if you are rejected to something that you want, then think about what it is that caused that rejection and work to better understand how you can present your best possible self when you try again.

你的剪辑提到...哦剪辑，发夹让我想起了我学生时代听过的一个故事。你和很多学生一起工作，我们稍后再回到这个话题。

And your your clips mention where you're like clips, hair clips remind reminded me of a story I heard when I was a student. So you work with a lot of students, and we're gonna come back to that.

哦，蒂姆，我能再补充一点吗？

Oh, Tim, can I add one more thing?

当然可以。

Of course.

抱歉，我...因为...但这个很有趣

I'm sorry. I I because but this is this is an interesting

你可以添加很多东西，请便。

You can add many things, please.

关于这个故事，有一点我从未提及的是，那位在第一年拒绝我的年轻男子，后来在我大三那年报社实习期间成为了我的朋友。我1983年毕业，现在是2017年2月，而我和那个名叫罗伯特·埃德尔斯坦的男人至今保持着友谊。

So one thing that I that I haven't shared about this particular story is that the man that the young man that rejected me that first year is somebody that I have that I then befriended in that experience of working at the paper that junior year. And I graduated in 1983. It is now 02/2017. And I have been friends with that man. His name is Robert Edelstein.

自那以后我们一直是朋友。所以，某人拒绝你并不代表他们不喜欢你。首先，他当时甚至没有拒绝我——他只是向我索要了克里夫的资料，这非常合理。

I have been friends with him ever since. So just because somebody rejects you doesn't mean that they don't like you. First of all, he didn't even reject me. He asked me for Cliff. Very reasonable.

风险。他当时提出了一个非常合理的要求——要看我的写作样本。我却因为没完全理解他的意思而惶恐不安，又羞于自己除了一些高中时期的习作外别无他物（那些作品我自己都觉得不合适），结果在诸多方面，是我自己拒绝了自己。我发现一个有趣的现象：罗布并非唯一一个最初看似设置了合理障碍的人。

Risk. He he asked me for something very reasonable. He asked me for some examples of my writing. I was so intimidated and was so embarrassed by not knowing exactly what he meant and the fact that I didn't have anything other than some things from high school, which I didn't feel were appropriate, that I was the one that rejected myself in many ways. One of the interesting things that I've found is and and Rob is not the only person that I can point to as being somebody that initially provided some sort of obstacle or roadblock that was a a reasonable one.

而最终，我们成为了朋友，如今更是一生的挚交。他根本不记得大一那年拒绝过我，现在想到自己可能伤害过我的感情就懊悔不已。所以我想建议那些自认为被拒绝的人：试着站在对方角度思考所谓‘拒绝’背后的真实意图。这种共情能力能帮助你更好地理解自身处境和你在特定情境中的表现。

And then, ultimately, I befriended, and we've become we are now lifelong friends. He didn't even remember rejecting me that freshman year and is mortified now by the notion that he might have done anything to hurt my feelings. So one of the other things that I would suggest that people consider if they believe they are being rejected is consider what the perception from the other person doing the rejection or the supposed rejection might be. And that sense of empathy might be really helpful in understanding where you're coming from and what you're bringing to that specific example or that that specific experience.

我想强调这一点，因为它太重要了。某种程度上，我和你一样非常敏感——至今在某些方面仍是如此。而我的特定反应模式是会产生某种不公正感。当我遭遇拒绝时...

And I'd like to underscore this because it's such an important point. And I, in some respects, like you, have been, very sensitive. I still am, in some respects, very sensitive. And my particular brand of that or my particular type of response is to, feel a a some type of sense of injustice. And and so I will get rejected.

回顾那些被我视为拒绝的经历（比如十年前通过邮件遭遇的多个‘拒绝’），我后来意识到：那从来不是永久性的拒绝，只是‘现在不行’——是当时客观条件造成的暂时性阻碍。而我却将其解读为‘永远没机会’，因此深受伤害，在很多情况下都没有尝试第二次。

And looking back at what I see as a rejection either when I did this perhaps ten years ago, looked at a number of instances where I felt like I'd been rejected via email and so on that a, it wasn't a rejection for all time. It was a not now. It was it was a it was a very temporary, impossibility due to logistics. And I took that as a no, not ever and felt very hurt by that and didn't try a second time in many cases.

是的。完全正确。

Yeah. Absolutely.

你知道吗？首先，'不'可能只是意味着现在不行。你甚至可以进一步确认这一点。明白吗？你可以把它当作一个澄清的问题来问。

You know? So number one, no may just mean no, not right now. And you can even clarify that. Right? You can ask that as a clarifying question.

第二点是，有人曾对我说过——虽然这不适用于你当前的情况——但不要把可以用无能解释的事情归咎于恶意。嗯...这句话虽然没能完全解决我的问题，但当我被告知这一点时，确实对我产生了深远影响。因为我读邮件时总会脑补对方是用一种愤怒或烦躁的语气写的，而实际上十有八九根本不是那样。

Number two is that at some point someone said to me, and this doesn't apply to your particular instance, but don't don't ascribe to malice what can be described what can be explained by incompetence. And Mhmm. That didn't cover it all for me though, but it it really made a profound impact on me when I when I was told this. And, because I would read email with, inserting if I were doing an audiobook of the other person's voice, some type of really angry or upset person. And nine times out of 10, that wasn't the tone at all.

我只是误读了语气。所以我开始告诫自己：不要把可以用无能或忙碌解释的事情归咎于恶意。对方可能只是太忙了。如果他们给你的长篇邮件回复得很简短，并不代表他们认为你不值得花时间，可能只是他们的待办事项是你的十倍。

I was just I was misreading it. And, so I I started to assume for myself, don't ascribe to malice what can be explained by incompetence or just busyness. The person is busy. If they send you a really short response to your mini novella of an email, it doesn't mean that they think you're worthless or not worth their time. It could just mean that they have 10 times more to do than you do.

当你初出茅庐、内心脆弱、立足未稳时，特别难保持这种心态。你向敬重的人倾注了大量情感，结果对方只回一句'抱歉孩子，现在不行'，你难免会想：就这？

And it's sometimes hard to have that perspective when particularly you're starting out and you're you're a bit fragile and you're on wobbly legs, and you send this huge outpouring of your emotion to someone you respect. And then they respond with, sorry, kid. Not right now. And you're like, really? That's it?

说来有趣——虽然我不会点名——但现在和我关系很好的一位极受尊敬的作家，2006年2月收到我《每周工作四小时》早期书稿邮件时，只回复了一行字，大意是'谢谢，但抱歉现在没空看'。

And then, you know, I I I'm not gonna name names, but there's someone who now I'm very close friends with. Extremely well respected writer. And I got one of these one line responses in 02/2006 when I sent an early manuscript of the four hour work week to this person via email. And the response was, effectively, thanks, but sorry. I don't have time to read this right now.

没错亲爱的蒂姆，连署名都没有。就一行字。当时我觉得被轻视到暗自记恨了好几年，如今我们成了挚友，回想起来整件事简直荒谬。

No, dear Tim. No signature. Just one line. And I felt so slighted by this that I held this subconscious grudge for years, and now we're really good friends, and the whole thing is ludicrous in retrospect.

我发现人性中有一个特点，就是模糊性总是被消极看待。一封简短的邮件里可能根本没有任何贬低或侮辱的内容。但正因为人类对模糊性持负面态度，我们往往会过度解读那些本不存在的东西，从而让自己难受。对我来说，这种心态很大程度上源于内心脆弱——我总认为别人对我不满并非因为具体某件事，而是因为我所做的一切本质上都不够好。他们只是...他们只是清楚地意识到了这一点。

One thing that that I find about human nature is that ambiguity is always perceived negatively. So there might be nothing in that one line email that would be in any way disparaging or insulting or or anything. But because we, as humans, perceive ambiguity ambiguity negatively, we tend to read into things that aren't there in a way that makes us feel bad. But I also think that a lot of that for me comes from having a a very sort of fragile center and not necessarily thinking that they are specifically upset with me because of something that I've done, but just because everything that I do is is sort of bad. They're just real they're just they're just cognizant of that.

所以这不是针对某件具体事情，而是一种全面性的否定。几十年来，我一直在努力克服这种心态。

So it's not something specific. It's just something all encompassing. And so that's that's been something I've been struggling to overcome over the decades.

我有几个关于你如何找到自己定位的问题，或者说你第一次感觉'就是它了'的那个瞬间——做那些最终引领你走到今天的事情。不过在提问之前，我想先插个关于发夹的趣闻。你提到发夹时，让我想起大学时教授讲的Nantucket Nectars创业故事。记得是两个创始人，他们在很多方面都是'装到成功'的典型。

So I have a few questions about how you came to find your niche or the first time you clicked into place, so to speak, doing something that resembles what what you ended up doing, up to this point. But before I get to that, just to just to put a button in the the anecdote related to clips. So you mentioned clips clips, hair clips. I was told this story by a professor in college about Nantucket nectars when it was just getting started. And there are, I believe, two guys who are really faking it until they made it in in a lot of respects.

有次他们去见分销商——之前一直在楠塔基特岛上靠船只兜售自制饮料。当想进军零售市场时，见了这位（记不清是零售商还是分销商）业界大佬。两人紧张得要命，对方问了句'你们有很多POS物料吗？'，他们面面相觑心想'完蛋'，却强装镇定回答'POS？我们最擅长POS了！'

And at one point, they're meeting with this distributor because they had been selling these these concoctions via boats in Nantucket from boat to boat to boat. And they wanted to go into retail, and they met met with this, it was either a retailer or a distributor, but it was early on. And and, they were really nervous, and the muckety muck they were meeting with, at least in their eyes, said, are you do you do you have a lot of POS materials? And they looked at each other like, oh, shit. And they said, oh, POS, we're all about POS.

对方连连说'很好很好'。等出来后他们才互相问'POS到底是什么鬼？'——后来才知道是'销售终端'的缩写，当然你现在肯定很熟悉这个了。

And he's like, good. Good. Good. And then they walked out, they're like, what the hell is POS? Point of sale, which, of course, you know plenty about.

不过在探讨你如何找到定位之前...你提到当初就认准要去曼哈顿。这让我思考很多关于（虽然这个词有时很危险）'幸福'的构成要素。我们常套用新闻六要素来思考幸福：为什么、是什么、在哪里等等。人类总是把'为什么'放在首位，'是什么'次之，而'在哪里'往往被忽视。

But the, I wanted to to before we get to when you sort of first clicked into your your niche and how that happened. You mentioned knowing that you wanted to be in Manhattan. And I've been thinking a lot about the components of, and this is a dangerous word sometimes, but happiness. And that oftentimes we think of the, let's say, the the journalist w's, right, the interrogatives, the the why, the what, the where, and so on of happiness. And I think humans tend to at least put why at the top, then maybe what somewhere lower, and then where is often an afterthought.

但我越来越认为地理位置的重要性远超我们想象——你完全可以从这里开始规划。我自己深有体会：地理环境从根本上决定了你日常接触的人群和事物。虽然这更像是观察而非提问...你是否思考过，对你个人而言，幸福或福祉的构成要素是怎样的？

But I've I've started to believe that the where is more is much more critical than we give it credit for and that you can you can actually start there. So I I I I've I've thought about this a lot for myself, but really the how important the geography can be because it determines in large measure who you're surrounded with all the time and what you're surrounded with all the time. But, I guess it's more of an observation than a question. But how do you if you've ever if if you think about that, how do you think about sort of the components of of happiness or or well-being for yourself?

这可是个大问题啊，蒂姆。

That's a big, big question, Tim.

哦，是啊。

Oh, yeah.

嗯，我觉得这个问题可以分成两部分。首先是关于纽约——那个我梦寐以求的地方，以及当时我对自己的承诺。然后最终这如何导向幸福或满足感。我刚毕业搬到曼哈顿时，最困扰我的问题就是：我究竟要成为什么样的人？我该做什么？

Well, there's sort of two parts to the question, I think. And the first is this notion of New York sort of being the place that I wanted to be and what I told myself at that time. And then ultimately how that leads to happiness or fulfillment. And one of the things that I struggled with when I first moved to Manhattan or when I first graduated really was what was I going to be? What was I going to do?

我当时没什么钱，没有人脉，当然也没有任何能帮我找到公寓或工作的关系。但我非常渴望留在曼哈顿，这点我很确定。在思考人生方向时，我知道自己想从事创意工作。

I didn't have a lot of money. I didn't have any network, and I certainly didn't have any type of connection to any ins for apartments or jobs or anything like that. And I wanted very badly to be in Manhattan. That was something that I knew for sure. In thinking about what I wanted with my life, I knew that I wanted to do something creative.

那时我最大的梦想之一就是进入康泰纳仕工作。我确实投了简历，也收到了面试通知，但最终被拒后再没尝试过。另一个更高的追求是成为艺术家或作家——更偏向纯艺术而非商业艺术。但当时我觉得成功几率渺茫，即便有可能也绝非易事。

One of my big, hopes and dreams at that time was to work at Conde Nast, and I did apply, and I did get a callback, and I got rejected and then never tried again. Another example of that. But one of the more high altitude aspirations was either being an artist or being a writer. So being more of a of a fine artist and not a commercial artist. But at the time, I did not think that my chances of success at that would either be possible and certainly, if it were possible, not fast.

因为想留在纽约曼哈顿，我觉得必须找到能付得起房租的工作。既不愿当服务生也不想做调酒师，就需要有份体面收入来支付房租。所以几十年来我一直在告诉自己：选择设计师职业是为了经济独立——自立对我至关重要。财务稳定能让我掌控人生，这个理念深刻影响了我所有决定。记得那个大卫·鲍伊风行的夏天，有天深夜我从俱乐部回来，站在布利克街和第六大道的路口...

And because I wanted to live in New York City, because I wanted to live in Manhattan, I felt that I needed to be able to get a job that would pay my rent. And because I didn't want to be a waitress and because I didn't want to be a bartender, I needed to make some type of reasonable income in order to pay that rent. And so I have been telling myself for decades now that I decided that I needed to work as a designer because I needed to have some sort of income that would give me some sense of self sufficiency. Self sufficiency has been enormously important to me, And I've said that for years and years and years and that being safe and secure and being able to manage the course of my own life, having financial stability was something that was a bit of a lead gene for me in making the decisions that I did. And back in that summer of David Bowie and the police, I remember coming home from a club one night, and I was on the corner of Bleecker Street and Sixth Avenue.

突然意识到必须做个决定：我到底要做什么？我明白如果想成为艺术家或作家，可能就得接受无法保障财务前景的工作。于是在心里和自己达成协议：成为设计师以确保经济安全。这个念头已经伴随我几十年了。

And it suddenly occurred to me that I had to make a decision. And the decision was, what was I going to do? And I realized that if I wanted to be an artist or a writer, that I would likely have to take some type of job that would not necessarily be able to safeguard what I considered to be my financial future. And therefore, made this little pact with myself in my head that I would become a designer so that I could make enough money to be able to be secure. And I've been telling myself that for decades.

过去几年我意识到，我的心理和意识在不知不觉中欺骗了自己。我完全是在自欺欺人，因为比起自给自足，我更渴望住在曼哈顿。如果不想住在世界上最昂贵的城市，我本可以轻松成为艺术家、画家或作家。我本可以搬去皇后区和母亲同住。

What I realized in the last couple of years was that I was unbeknownst to my psyche, my my consciousness. I was lying to myself. I was absolutely positively lying to myself because more than the self sufficiency was the desire to be in Manhattan. I could have easily become or more easily become an artist or a fine artist or a writer if I didn't wanna live in the most expensive city in the world. I could have gone and lived with my mother in Queens.

我本可以和朋友住在奥尔巴尼，本可以在贝德-斯图伊的小公社里和七个室友合住。如果我的主导基因是艺术纯粹性，我本可以做无数选择。但我却用各种借口欺骗自己。事实上，当时我生命中最重要的是留在曼哈顿。

I could have lived with friends in Albany. I could have had seven roommates in in a little commune in Bed Stuy. There would have been any number of things that I could have done if my lead gene had been artistic purity. But, no, I told myself that it was because of x, y, and z. But, really, what it was was the most important thing to me at that point in my life was being in Manhattan.

我住在四层无电梯的廉价公寓里，要穿过别人的卧室才能回到自己房间。同层的住户总在互相锁门——那是一对总在吵架的老夫妇。窗外防火梯上还住着一窝鸽子，我的卧室简直破败不堪。

And I lived in a fourth fort Fourth Floor tenement walk up. I had to walk through somebody else's bedroom to get to mine. I was living on a floor with people that were constantly the other tenants in in the building were locking each other out. It was an elderly couple, and they were always fighting. There were a a whole family of pigeons living on the fire escape outside of my window in my bedroom, which was so decrepit.

夏天连窗户都打不开，公寓里更没有空调。我当时的居住条件极其恶劣，但这就是我最看重的事。所以现在当人们问我毕业生该做什么时，我会让他们思考：对你来说最重要的一件事是什么？因为如果是真正最重要的事，你定会竭尽全力去实现它。

I couldn't even open the window in the summertime, and there was no air conditioning in this apartment. I mean, the conditions that I lived in were deplorable, but yet that was the most important thing to me. So when I talk to people now about what do they wanna do when they first graduate, I ask them to think about what is the one most important thing to you. What is the one most important thing to you? Because if it is truly the one most important thing to you, you will likely do whatever it takes to get it.

对我来说最重要的不是成为作家或艺术家，而是住在曼哈顿。为此我不择手段，忍受各种恶劣条件。我认为这是个非常重要的领悟。

And the most important thing to me was not being a writer, and it was not being a and not being an artist. It was living in Manhattan. And I did whatever it took and lived in whatever conditions that I needed to in order to make that happen. I think that's a really important realization.

确实如此。所以你不择手段地留在了曼哈顿，这就是你所说的'主导基因'和所有决定带来的部分结果。那么对稳定性和安全的需求——或者说渴望——又是从何而来的呢？

Oh, definitely. And so so you've by hook or crook, you're living in Manhattan. And Yes. So that is the the outcome in part, of all of these decisions and the lead gene as you put it. Where does the the need for for stability, security, or the desire for that come from?

我认为这确实符合马斯洛需求层次理论。对我来说，这种需求还有额外意义——我成长环境非常艰难，父母在我八岁时就离婚了。

Well, I do think that it's it's certainly in Maslow's hierarchy of needs, a really important one. Yeah. For me, it takes on, I I I think, any an extra level of of significance in that I grew up in a really, really challenging environment. So my parents got divorced when I was very young. I was about eight years old.

我与父亲的关系非常、非常复杂。他去年意外去世了。在我女儿眼中，他是个才华横溢、魅力非凡的人，口才极佳，但同时也极度情绪化。

And I I've I had a very, very complicated relationship with my father. My father died last year unexpectedly. My father, sort of in my daughter eyes, was brilliant, charismatic. He was an incredibly well spoken man. He was also extremely turbulent.

他有严重的愤怒管理问题。在我们共同生活的岁月里，他曾五次拒绝我，决定让我退出他的生活。其中最长的一次持续了约九年。我们的关系充满动荡。父母离婚时，我告诉自己对此感到高兴，因为我太害怕他的怒火，也太害怕他们彼此间的怨恨。

He had a lot of anger issues. And over the course of our lives together, I had five different experiences with him where he rejected me and decided that he didn't want me in his life. And so one of those periods was about nine years. So we had a very, very turbulent relationship. When my parents got divorced, I told myself at the time that I was really happy about that because I was so scared of his anger and so scared of the anger that they had for each other.

父母离婚约一年后，母亲再婚了。她的新婚丈夫对我和弟弟实施身体虐待，还对他两个亲生女儿中的一个进行性侵，并持续四年对我们施以严重暴力。那段时间也是我第一次与生父疏远的时期。我的童年充斥着暴虐。他们离婚后，我13岁，父亲重新回到了我的生活。

About a year after my parents got divorced, my mother married again, and she married a man who was physically and sexually abusive to me physically abusive to my brother and also sexually abusive to his two well, to one of his two biological daughters and was and and severely, severely beat us for for four years. During that time was one of the times the first time actually that I I was estranged from my biological father. And so I had a lot of brutality in my life. And after they got divorced, I was 13. My father came back into my life.

母亲后来又交往了一个比她小十岁的男人——只比我大十岁——这个人对我存在性暗示行为，并进行情感虐待。因此在我人生的前十八年，我始终活在恐惧中，只能通过艺术和大量课外活动自我安抚。我始终是个过度追求完美的人，或许是想向自己和家人证明我不该遭受那些虐待。即便在当时，我也渴望更好的人生，并坚信只要有能力照顾自己，就能避免不幸——这种想法虽不现实，却是我当时的信念。

My mother then got involved with another another man who was ten years younger than her, so therefore only ten years older than me and was also, I guess, I'll put it sexually provocative with me and also emotionally abusive. So for the first, like, eighteen years of my life, I lived in a state of constant terror and compensated or self soothed with art, with a lot of extracurricular activities in school. I was always an overachiever probably in an effort to prove to myself and to my family that I wasn't worthy of of the abuse that was being inflicted on me. I wanted so much more for my life even back then and grew up thinking that if I had the resources to take care of myself, that I would never allow anything bad to happen to me. Not not quite a realistic expectation, but but was something that I felt was possible to do.

当然事实并非如此，认清这点花了我数十年时间。但那时我极度渴望拥有自己的家，能够自立，永远不再脆弱——就像郝思嘉说的'我永远不要再挨饿'。

Of course, it's not. That takes decades to also figure out. But at that time, I wanted very badly to be able to live in my own home, to be able to take care of myself, and to be in a position where I would never be vulnerable again, you know, sort of Scarlet O'Hara. I'm never gonna go hungry again. Yeah.

现实未必尽如人意，但这确实是我一路走来的心路历程。

It doesn't always work out that way, but it was definitely the the the journey that that I've been on.

感谢你分享这些，我完全不知道这些经历。

Well, thank you for sharing that. I had no idea. And

我不常谈论这件事，主要是因为我对此怀有极大的羞耻感，这很正常，至今依然如此。对我来说，分享这类经历仍然非常非常困难。但我认为让人们看到希望很重要——即使你曾是这类事件的受害者，生活依然可以变得更好。我花了很多时间努力将这些经历融入我的生活，不仅为了理解发生了什么、为何发生、以及后续影响，更为了能运用这份同理心和理解去帮助世界。这也是我与玛丽丝卡·哈吉塔及'快乐心灵基金会'合作的重要原因。该基金会是玛丽丝卡在参演《法律与秩序：特殊受害者》后创立的。

It's not something I talk about a lot, mostly because I've had an enormous amount of shame about it, and and that's a very normal thing, and I still do. And it's still very, very hard for me to share these types of things. But I do think it's important that people do see that there is hope for a better life even when you are the victim of these types of situations. I've spent a lot of time working on better integrating those experiences into my life in a way to not only understand what happened, why it happened, what the aftermath then caused, but also how I can use that empathy and that understanding to try to help the world. And and that's a lot of the reason that I've started to do the work that I do with Mariska Harkatay and the Joyful Heart Foundation, which is a foundation that Mariska started after she started working on Law and Order SVU.

她开始参演该剧不久后，便收到大量观众来信——这些正是剧中她试图为之伸张正义的受害者群体。她意识到这远不止是一部电视剧，而是改变社会文化的重大契机。随后不久她便创立了'快乐心灵基金会'，致力于消除家庭暴力、性侵和儿童虐待。过去五年我一直与玛丽丝卡及基金会CEO麦乐·赞布托共事。通过运用我在全球顶级消费品公司品牌重塑方面的专业经验，结合个人背景投入这项工作，让我真切感受到生命的完整意义，蒂姆。

Shortly after she started working on that television program, she started to receive a lot of letters from people that the very the very victim she was trying to find justice for on the television show and realized that this is way more than a television show. This is a huge opportunity to make a difference in our culture. And shortly thereafter, started the Joyful Heart Foundation, which is an organization to help eradicate domestic violence, sexual assault, and child abuse. And I've been working with Mariska and Maile Zambuto, the CEO of the foundation now for the last five years. And this work, I believe, the branding work that I've been able to do with them taking into all the expertise I've had in repositioning and branding some of the biggest CPG companies in the world and now dovetailing that with my own background really truly makes me feel like my whole life makes sense, Tim.

这太美好了。很高兴你谈起这些，虽然经历不同，但我也曾与各种黑暗抗争过。人们很容易陷入孤独无助的错觉，认为现状永远不会改变。我相信此刻正有听众与你有相似遭遇却从未倾诉，或找不到整合这些经历的方法，而你的故事可能成为他们关键的转折点。我想请教——如果你愿意分享的话——除快乐心灵基金会的工作外，是否有其他特别有帮助的途径或方法？比如某些特定练习或工作，能让你更好地与过往和解？

That's beautiful. And I'm really glad you're talking about this because I can imagine, a very different experience, but I've had my own battles with darkness of different types, and it's very easy to believe that you are alone or isolated or that things will never change. And I'm sure there are people listening who have had similar experiences to yours who have never talked about them or have never found a way to perhaps integrate or reconcile them, and this might be an incredible catalyst for them. I I would love to ask, if you're open to talking about it for yourself, have you found any particular avenues or types of work to be particularly helpful to you? Of course, the the the work that you're doing with the Joyful Heart Foundation, but apart from that, is is are there any particular types of exercises or or work or anything really that has helped you to be more at peace with your experience?

我认为心理治疗拯救了我的生命。我一直非常坚持治疗，与同一位分析师持续治疗已超过二十年。

I think that the work that I've done in therapy has saved my life. I have always been really, dedicated to my therapy and have been in therapy with the same analyst now for over two decades.

如果不介意的话，请问是哪种疗法？我对这方面了解甚少。

What type of therapy is that? If you don't mind me asking. I know very little about

我的治疗师是心理学博士，曾深度参与纽约精神分析学界，现居圣达菲。我认为她的疗法融合了多种哲学理论，基础可能是精神分析，但肯定有很多变体。这是谈话治疗。

She, I think, well, she she is the the person who I work with is a PhD. She, was very involved in the psychoanalytic community in New York City. She's now living in Santa Fe. I think that it's a combination of a number of different philosophies and and theories, probably at its foundation, psychoanalysis, but but certainly with quite a lot of variations. It's talk therapy.

九十年代初期我每周接受五次治疗，后来减为三次，现在通常两到三次。这对理解我的经历有极大帮助。对于正在经历创伤或其后遗症的人，其实有很多资源可用。我最糟糕的经历发生在七十年代，当时最强烈的感受是彻骨的孤独。

I started back in the early nineties five days a week and then moved down to three days, and now I'm usually two to three days. And it is enormously helpful to help me try to make sense of of these experiences that I've had. For anybody that is either in the midst of experiencing them or experiencing the aftermath, there is a lot of there are a lot of resources. One of the things that I experienced when I was in the midst of of these experiences was a sense of profound aloneness. The experiences that I had the worst experiences I had were in the seventies.

当时，这个话题还不像现在这样被广泛理解。我不知道自己身上发生了什么。我以为全世界只有我一个人遭遇这种事，因为这一切显得如此超现实、反常且充满惩罚性。我没想到这种现象如此普遍，没想到这是一场文化流行病。当时施害者告诉我，如果我敢告诉任何人，他有能力伤害我的兄弟和母亲，他会杀了他们。

And at the time, the topic wasn't one that was as understood. I didn't know what was happening to me. I thought I was the only person in the world that this was happening to because it seemed so surreal and unnatural and punishing. It didn't occur to me that this was pervasive, that this was a cultural epidemic. And I was told at the time by, the perpetrator that if I told anybody that, he had the resources to hurt my brother and my mother, that he would kill them.

太可怕了。而我当时相信了。我只是个小女孩，我相信了。我以为自己在保护他们，不知道还有其他求助途径。

Horrible. And I believed that. I was a little girl. I believed that. And I was protecting them, and I didn't know that I had any other resources.

完全没有。直到父母离婚后我才告诉母亲，因为蒂姆，我不想成为导火索。我不想被指责。而且我觉得没人会相信我，更不想母亲和兄弟受到伤害。直到多年后我才意识到这种现象的普遍性。

None. And didn't even tell my mother until after they got divorced because, Tim, I didn't wanna be the reason. I didn't wanna be blamed. And I also didn't think anybody would believe me, and I didn't want my mother and my brother to be harmed. It wasn't until I was much older that I realized that this was pervasive.

所以对正在聆听的每个人说：如果你感到孤独，请明白你并不孤单。你可以联系'快乐心灵基金会'(joyfulheartfoundation.org)，那里有资源和联系电话。也可以访问knowmore.org，这是另一个我参与协助的组织。那里有人愿意帮助你、倾听你，带你脱离困境。

And so for anybody that is listening, if you feel alone, know that you're not. You can go to the Joyful Heart Foundation, the joyfulheartfoundation.org, and there are resources and phone numbers. You can also go to knowmore.org, which is another organization that I've helped. And there are resources and people that are there to help and listen and get you out of the situation that you are in.

感谢分享这些。为了调节气氛——虽然不知该如何自然过渡话题——但我还是...

Thank you for that. To insert some levity, I'm not sure how to segue from here. But but I will

让我们谈谈人们正在采取的一些真正重要的行动，这些行动不仅旨在消除此类暴力，还要改变世界。'快乐心灵'让我特别自豪的另一项工作是清理积压案件。全美各地警局有数十万份强奸检测试剂盒未被调查，就搁置在架子上。基金会与副总统乔·拜登合作，积极争取资金来分析这些试剂盒的DNA数据，将连环强奸犯绳之以法，为受害者伸张正义。这项工作不仅能改变我们身处的强奸文化，还能扭转对受害者的指责。

Well, let's talk about some of the really, really important things that that people are doing now to not only eradicate this type of violence, but also to change the world. One of the other things that Joyful Heart is doing that I am so proud of is ending the backlog. There are hundreds of thousands of rape kits that are not being, investigated, that are sitting in shelves in police departments all over the country. And so the Joyful Heart Foundation, along with vice president Joe Biden, has been very involved in getting funding to help analyze those rape kits to be able to analyze the DNA and get serial rapists off the streets and guest and get justice for the victims of those crimes. So that's a really, really important thing that they're doing and something that I feel can ultimately change not only, the sort of rape culture that we're living in, but also the blaming of victims.

通过共同推进这项工作，我们可以改变文化。这是我深感自豪的事业。

So we can change culture by doing this work together. That's something I'm super proud of.

对于正在收听的听众们，本期节目中提到的所有资源都会出现在节目备注里，你们可以在4hourworkweek.com/podcast（全拼）找到knowmore.org、快乐心灵基金会等链接。黛比，我想请你稍微——或者说大幅度地——转换一下话题。来说说那个‘勇敢发声’的故事吧。

And to those people listening, all of these, resources that are being mentioned throughout this episode will be in the show notes, so you can certainly find links to knowmore.org, the joyful heart foundation, and so on, at 4hourworkweek.com/podcast, all spelled out. Debbie, I'd love to ask you to shift gears just a little bit or perhaps a lot. The speak up story.

那是我最喜欢的故事之一。好的。

That's one of my favorite stories. Alright.

我会让你自由发挥的。我非常希望...非常希望你能分享这个故事。

I will I will let you run with it. I I would love for you to I would love for you to share.

好的。我想先告诉大家，这段经历发生时，我曾以为是我职业生涯中最糟糕的遭遇。但结果证明，它成为了我人生中最重要、最充满生命力的转折点。让我讲讲这个‘勇敢发声’的故事。时间回到2003年2月，那时的世界格局与现在截然不同。

Okay. So so I wanna start this story by letting people know that this was something that while it was happening, I thought was the worst professional experience of my life. And it's turned out to be the most important and life affirming of my life. So so let me tell you a little bit about the speak up story. So the the year is 02/2003, and the time of of in the world was was quite different than it is now.

当时我们虽然已经上网，但和现在的上网方式完全不同。YouTube那时才刚刚起步，主要是个视频分享网站。我们上网主要是玩游戏，通过J.Crew邮购目录购物。

So we were we were online, but we weren't quite online in the way that we are now. I think YouTube was just just just beginning. It was a a video sharing site more than anything. We were online, but we were playing games, and we were ordering from the J. Crew catalog.

不知道大家还记不记得J.Crew邮购目录刚上线时的盛况。人们都惊呆了——居然能网上购物，直接送货上门，连家门都不用出。天啊。

I I don't know if people remember when the J. Crew catalog went online. People's heads exploded. You could buy things online, and they could be shipped to you, and you don't have to leave the house. Oh my god.

这实在太神奇了。我们当时就是玩游戏、发邮件、看新闻。虽然也有论坛，但基本都是小众论坛，不像现在的主流文化论坛。在那之前的人生阶段，我于1995年加入了Sterling Brands公司。这正应验了你之前提到的顿悟时刻——当我加入这家公司时，甚至没有意识到，我是被聘用来通过获取品牌新客户推动业务增长的。

That's so amazing. And we were play like, we were playing games, and we were emailing and and reading the news. And and there were forums where people would congregate, but they tended to be more niche forums and and not so much mainstream cultural forums. Prior to that, leading up to to that time in my life, I had joined Sterling Brands in 1995. And this was one of the first moments of that click that you had mentioned earlier where suddenly, without even realizing it, I had joined a firm where I was hired to help grow the business via the acquisition of new clients in branding.

这份工作几乎是我人生中第一次毫不费力就获得成功。我想这要归功于我童年时在父亲药店的经历，周围都是品牌商品，以及我自己对乐事薯片这类东西的痴迷。

And the job was one of the first times in my life where I was almost effortlessly successful. I think because of my early childhood in my father's pharmacy, being surrounded by brands, had and my own sort of obsession with things like Lay's potato chips.

说‘乐事薯片’。

Say Lay's potato chips.

没错。我几乎有种神奇的洞察力，能理解人们为何以及如何选择生活中的物品——主要是他们选择的品牌。于是我开始在Sterling Brands工作，取得了前所未有的财务成功，我真的很享受。我也始终着迷于人们为生活物品做出的选择——他们选择什么环绕身边，购买、分享、食用、穿戴什么等等。尽管我热爱这份工作，尽管我陶醉于三十出头终于获得的成功，但内心仍渴望重拾艺术创作的那部分生活，感觉那是我深深缺失的。

Exactly. I had this almost magical ability to understand why and how people chose the objects that they did to be part of their lives, mostly the brands that they chose. So I started working at Sterling Brands and, had this heretofore unbelievable level of success financially, and I really enjoyed it. I am also endlessly fascinated by the choices people make for the objects in their lives, what they choose to surround themselves with, the kinds of things they buy and share and eat and wear and so forth. And in as much as I loved what I was doing and in as much as I was relishing the level of success that in my early thirties, was finally finally getting, I also was still sort of longing for that artistic, creative sort of part of my life that, I felt was was deeply missing.

那时候你在哪个部门工作？

At that point, what department were you working in?

我在市场营销部门工作。明白了。当时我并没有做太多设计工作，只是接些自由项目。我曾被任命为Hot 97电台的非播出创意总监，这又是另一个故事了，以后有机会再讲。

I was working in marketing and sales. Got it. So and I wasn't I wasn't at that time doing very much design work. I was doing some work freelance. I had been appointed the off air creative director at Hot ninety seven, which is a whole other sort of story to share at some point.

但我当时正在为史上第一家嘻哈电台设计视觉标识系统，这家电台恰好在纽约，叫Hot 97。这是我唯一接的私活。进入Sterling Brands后，我渴望找到设计社群，渴望成为比独自一人更宏大的存在，而且是更具创意、没有商业束缚的集体。后来我发现了美国平面设计协会（AIGA），他们有个特别兴趣小组叫'品牌体验中心'，我兴奋极了。

But I was I was working, to develop the identity and the graphics for the first ever hip hop radio station, which happened to be in New York and was called Hot ninety seven. That was the only thing that I was doing on the side. I started working at Sterling Brands and was longing for a design community and was longing for a feeling of being part of something bigger than I was on my own, but something that was much more creative and had, no commercial, implications. And I found the AIGA, the American Institute of Graphic Arts, and they had a special interest group within AIGA called the Brand Experience Center. And I was so excited.

我想：天啊！这就是我人生的完美交集。既能做品牌，又能接触设计师——那些著名设计师都在董事会里！我可以结识他们，融入这个优秀社群。于是我去当了志愿者，成为了AIGA会员。

I thought, oh my god. This is the Venn diagram of my life. I can do branding, and they they have designers. And and all these famous designers are on the board, and I could meet them, and I could be part of this great community. And so I went and I volunteered, and I became a member of AIGA.

当时我在这个品牌体验小组工作，我非常喜欢这份工作。后来我被任命为董事会成员，感觉自己真正成为了某个重要部分。董事会任期我记得是两年。任期结束时，如果我们想继续留任，都需要重新申请。在那两年里，我非常活跃。

And I was working with this brand experience group, and I loved it. And I was appointed to the board, and I felt really, really part of something. And, the board term was, I think, two years. And at the end of the term, we if we wanted to be on the board again, we all had to reapply. And in that two years, I was very active.

我参加了所有会议，而且我们不是由AIGA资助的，必须自筹资金。所以我为烘焙义卖做了纸杯蛋糕，我们还办了跳蚤市场。我深度参与了这个小型兴趣小组的日常运营工作。两年任期结束时，所有想留任的成员都重新提交了申请——每个人都再次申请了。结果所有人都再次获任董事会职务，除了我。

I went to all the meetings, and we weren't funded by AIGA. We had to self fund, and so I made cupcakes for bake sales, and we had a flea market. And I was very, very involved in the sort of day to day runnings of this little special interest group. At the end of the two years, we all had to reapply if we wanted to be on the board again, and every single person reapplied. And every single person was appointed on the board again except me.

我...我被拒绝了。

I I was rejected. Was

噢，你铺垫了这么久

Oh, you set me up

就为了说纸杯蛋糕的事。

with the cupcakes.

知道。我

Know. I

知道。那些纸杯蛋糕和布朗尼真的很好吃。我当时崩溃了，完全崩溃了。当时的执行董事Rick Raffet很清楚我有多想留在AIGA，了解我的抱负和想做的事。

know. Were really good cupcakes and brownies. And and I was devastated. I was just devastated. And Rick Raffet, who was then the executive director, he had been aware of how much I wanted to be in in AIGA and how much I wanted to do and my aspirations.

我想他确实很为我感到难过。他问我是否想吃午餐，然后带我去麦迪逊十一号餐厅享用了一顿非常昂贵的午餐。哦，那顿午餐真是...太棒了，他非常慷慨。用餐期间他不断恳求说，请千万不要放弃AIGA。

And I think he felt really bad for me. He asked me if I wanted to have lunch, and he took me to a very expensive lunch at eleven Madison. And Oh, that's course of lunch yeah. It was super wonderful and generous of him. Over the course of lunch, he said, please, please don't give up on AIGA.

我们需要像你这样的人，千万别放弃。我们会为你找到合适位置的，我保证。作为某种安慰奖，他问我是否愿意担任AIGA即将举办的年度竞赛'365'的评委，邀请我负责包装设计类别的评审。对我来说，这几乎抵得上被品牌体验中心特别利益团体排挤的委屈了。

We need people like you, and don't give up. The the we'll find a place for you. I promise. And I guess as a bit of a consolation prize, he asked me if I would be a judge in the upcoming annual competition that AIGA had called three sixty five, and he asked me if I wanted to be a judge in the package design category. This to me was almost worth being kicked to the curb by the special interest group of the Brand Experience Center.

这可以说是我当时职业生涯中最大的荣誉。能成为全国最大设计比赛的评委，对我来说简直难以置信，就像奇迹一般。于是我参加了评审，还有另外两位评委与我一起。我们需要在一天内审阅700件参赛作品。

This was, like, the biggest honor of my career at that point. To be a judge in the country's biggest design competition was unfathomable to me. It felt like a miracle. And so I went to the judging, and there were two other judges with me. We had 700 entries that we needed to look at in one day.

当我到达AIGA总部参加评审时，见到了另外两位评委。其中一位是知名设计师，经营着一家精品设计公司，非常时髦。她打扮得光鲜亮丽，让我相形见绌。另一位来自苹果公司，当时iPod刚发布不久，他全程都在摆弄iPod，根本没怎么关注评审工作。

And when I got to the to the judging at AIGA headquarters, I met with the other two jurors. One was a very well known designer who had a bit of a boutique agency, very posh. She was very stylish. I did not feel nearly as stylish. Another guy was there from Apple, and this was shortly after the iPod had been released, and he was on his iPod the whole time and really didn't spend a lot of time paying attention to the judging.

总之，这位评委...另一位评委

In any case, this other juror the other juror

真是个混蛋。是啊。不管怎样。另一位评委...抱歉伙计

What dick. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. The other juror Sorry, guy.

我不知道。是啊。

I don't know. Yeah.

是的。我到那儿时另一位评委看着我，她说，'提前告诉你，我不打算让任何大众市场包装在这次比赛中获奖。'哇哦。我当时就，'呃，好吧。'而且我并不同意她的观点。

Yeah. The other juror looks at me when I get there, and she's like, just so you know, I don't intend to have any mass market packaging in this competition get an award. Wow. And I was like, oh oh, okay. And and I didn't agree with that.

我是说，可以理解，我当时在一家消费品包装设计公司工作，我们刚设计了汉堡王标志、《星球大战前传二：克隆人的进攻》的包装与周边，还有好时巧克力。所以你看，我的出发点完全不同。我们争论得如此激烈，有几次我都觉得要动手了，但我们...

I mean, I understandably had come I was working at a CPG package design firm, and we had recently designed the Burger King logo and the Star Wars episode two attack of the clones packaging and merchandising and the Hershey bar. And so, you know, I was coming from a completely different point of view. We ended up disagreeing so vehemently that at one point, I thought we were gonna actually come to fisticuffs, but we

这是幕后发生的，还是你们在评审团时的情形？

Was this was this behind the scenes, or is this while you were on the panel?

就是在评审过程中发生的，当时还有人跟着我们做记录，准备为年度刊物写文章。太尴尬了。总之，我们最终只勉强达成七项共识能列入竞赛期刊——这可不是鼓励未来参赛者的好方式。AIGA对我们很不满意，那位同僚评委简直恨透了我。

This is while we're on the panel, and there's somebody that's trailing us writing notes for an article that's going to appear in the annual. It was mortifying. In any case, we were only able to agree, I think, on seven things that would go into the competition journal, which is not a way to encourage future applicants to apply for the competition. So AIJ was not particularly happy with us. This juror of mine, the fellow juror, hated me.

那天结束时我觉得AIGA再也不会找我做任何事了。记得走回帝国大厦办公室时已是黄昏，心想'这事彻底搞砸了'，只能认命。后来里克要求我在期刊上展示些作品证明评委资质，我当时最重要的两个项目就是汉堡王和星球大战的品牌设计，就把这些作为资历证明提交了。

And I felt at the end of that day that I would never ever be asked to do anything with AIGA ever again. And I remember walking back to my office, which was at the Empire State Building at the time. It was sort of dusk, and I felt like, oh, this is never ever gonna work out and and resigned myself to that. Rick asked for some work of mine to be included in the journal as evidence of my credentials for being a juror, And the two biggest projects that I had done at the time were the Burger King identity and the Star Wars identity. And so I sent those in as my credentials.

它们被刊登在期刊上，我以为这事就这么结束了。直到2003年5月2日，我收到朋友发来的链接，邮件里写着'在家偷偷看，最好配杯烈酒'。天啊...

They were printed in the journal, and that was the end of that or so I thought. 05/02/2003. I get I get a link from a friend of mine. She sends me an email, and she's like, read this in the privacy of your own home, preferably with a big drink. And Oh, boy.

这铺垫绝了。

What a setup.

我懂，对吧？而且我不是那种喜欢惊喜或期待的人，我需要即时满足。所以我不会等到回家。

I know. Right? And I am not one that likes surprises or anticipation. I need instant gratification. So I don't wait to go home.

我不会等到去喝一杯。我在办公桌前点击链接，进入一个叫SpeakUp的网站，看到一封由设计师Felix Salkwell写给AIGA的公开信。SpeakUp是最早的博客之一，也是第一个设计类博客。信中严厉批评AIGA邀请我——黛比·米尔曼——担任他们年度比赛的评委，这本该是全国最负盛名的赛事，他们不仅指责我是企业小丑，还因为我所做的工作称我为‘女魔头’。

I don't wait to get a drink. I click into the link at my desk, in my office, and come to a letter, an open letter to AIGA written by a designer named Felix Salkwell on this thing called SpeakUp. And SpeakUp was one of the first weblogs and the first design blog. And the letter chastises AIGA for including me, Debbie Millman, as a juror in their annual competition, what is supposed to be the most prestigious competition in the country, and accused me of not only being a corporate clown, but also because of the work I do, they called me a she devil.

女魔头。哇哦。

A she devil. Wow.

接着他们开始全面否定我的职业生涯，形成了一场围攻。不仅那封公开信言辞激烈，还有博客早期常见的评论区围攻。记得那种情况吗？

And proceeded to take my entire career down, and it was a pile on. So not only was the open letter quite harsh, but then there was the pile on of comments that happened in the early days of blogging. Remember that?

噢，当然。真庆幸那些充满恶意的评论已成为过去。但没错，我太熟悉了，再熟悉不过了。

Oh, yes. So I'm so glad that that hateful comments are a thing of the past. But yes. Oh, yes. Intimately intimately familiar.

对吧？

Right?

我读着这些内容，下巴都快惊掉了，整个人陷入木僵状态。我动弹不得，感到羞耻、难堪，害怕办公室同事会看到，害怕公司的声誉因我受损。我不知道该怎么办，绝望透顶。记得那天我哭着走回家，想着必须辞职。

And I'm reading this, and my jaw is agape, and I am just in a state of catatonia. I couldn't move. I was ashamed, embarrassed, terrified that people in my office would see it, that the reputation of the firm was being sullied by me, and I didn't know what to do. I was despondent. I remember walking home from work that day crying, thinking that I had to quit.

我不得不离开设计行业，我的职业生涯就此终结。这个我好不容易找到的职业生涯现在正式结束了。说实话，我完全不知道该怎么办，蒂姆。我觉得如果写出来会显得我在辩解，反而会让更多人关注这件事。但如果不写，我又会错过一个至少能用不同观点参与讨论的机会，我真的不知所措。

I had to leave the design business, and I my career was over. This career that I had finally found for myself was now officially over. And I I honestly did not know what to do, Tim. I felt like if I wrote in that it would seem defensive, that it would bring more attention to this story. I felt that if I didn't write in, that I would be missing an opportunity to at least contribute to the conversation with a point of view that might be different than theirs, I didn't know what to do.

现在回想起来，我对自己当时的所作所为感到非常羞愧，因为那太虚伪了。但在当时，那是我唯一能想到的办法。所以在事件爆发几天后，看到评论区不断发酵，我也参与了讨论。我的第一条评论是——你肯定不会认同这个——然后

And looking back on it now, I'm actually really ashamed of what I did because it was disingenuous. But at the time, it was the only thing that I felt I could do. And so a few days after the story broke and the comments piled in, I contributed. And my first comment was, and you're gonna you're not gonna approve of this. And

哦，我们走着瞧。走着瞧。

Oh, we'll see. We'll see.

我写道：多么精彩的讨论啊。我爱死——

I wrote, what a cool discussion. I love I'm

抱歉。

sorry.

我真的很抱歉。你知道，《酷女孩》那本书当时还没出版，要是出版了的话，我肯定会说那就是我想成为的样子。我想当个酷女孩。什么都不在乎。我能连吃五个辣热狗还不发胖。

I'm so sorry. I you know, the book Cool Girl had not come out at that time, but had it been out, I would have said, that's what I was trying to be. I was trying to be the cool girl. Nothing matters. I can eat five chili dogs, and I don't gain weight.

明白吗？我在引用书里的话。总之我就这样加入了讨论，说了那些话。但最后我竭尽全力进行了最好的辩论。我试图解释我们是如何设计汉堡王标志的，我们在全球做了多少测试，消费者有多么喜欢它，他们凭什么认为这个设计不够好。

You know? I'm quoting the book. So, yeah, I I came in, and that's what I said. But I ended up having the the best possible back and forth I could muster. I tried to talk about how we had constructed the Burger King logo and the amount of testing we had done around the world and how consumers really seemed to like it and who were they to sort of declare that it wasn't worthy.

我尽可能保持开放和毫无防备的姿态。然而他们却不断追加侮辱，嘲笑我的做法。后来有几个人发表了不同意见，最后一条评论来自一位名叫David Weinberg的人——我们后来成了朋友——他当时在Landor工作并写了那封信。

And I I tried to be as as opened and as defenseless as possible. And, ultimately, they they continued to pile on some more insults and made fun of the practice that I that I had. And then a couple of people weighed in otherwise, and the final comment was from a a man named David Weinberg who I'm since who I've since become friends with as well who at the time worked at Landor and wrote it.

Landor。是什么

Landor. What is

Landor是全球最大且最受尊敬的品牌咨询公司之一，由Walter Landor约八九十年前创立。他写道：‘让我们看看Felix能为汉堡王标志做些什么，Sterling那边的工作也很出色。’这基本结束了讨论，再没人发表其他意见。而我认为已经结束的事其实并未结束，因为

Landor is one of the world's biggest and and most respected brand consultancies started by Walter Landor about eighty or ninety years ago. And and he wrote in, you know, let's see what Felix could do with that Burger King logo and great work over there at Sterling. And that was sort of the end of that conversation. Nobody else came in with another comment. And what I thought was over really wasn't because the

Felix是那个

Felix is the the

他就是这封公开信的原始作者Felix Sackwell，插画师兼设计师。明白了。之后我以为事情结束了，我以为观点上达成了某种妥协。

He was the original writer of this open letter. Felix Sackwell, the illustrator and designer. Got it. And then they I thought it was over. I thought it had ended with some sort of a compromise in viewpoints.

但令我懊恼的是，Speak Up的作者们继续写关于我的文章。下一篇的标题是《黑暗面正在占据上风吗？》

But to, my chagrin, the writers at Speak Up kept writing about me. And the next article was called, is the dark side prevailing?

真含蓄。真含蓄。

So subtle. So subtle.

非常微妙。那时候，蒂姆，我已经完全沉迷了。我每天要访问那个网站十五到二十次，不断刷新，看他们怎么写我，最后实在受不了，就去找IT部门的人说，给我的工作电脑装上家长控制。我不想再看到这个网站了。然后他真的这么做了。

Very subtle. At that point, Tim, I was obsessed. I was going to this site fifteen, twenty times a day, constantly refreshing, seeing what they were writing about me, and finally gave up and went to my IT person and said, put parental controls on my computer at work. I don't wanna be able to see this site. And he did.

有时候你需要一副有用的手铐。是啊。

Sometimes you need a helpful pair of handcuffs. Yeah.

说得好。不过我还是会回家偷偷看，但无所谓了。几周后，Speak Up的创始人，一个名叫阿明·维特的23岁年轻人联系了我。他给我发了封邮件道歉。他并没有为把我的作品称为'一对粪球'而道歉——他确实这么形容的

Well said. And and but I'd still you know, I'd go home and and look, but whatever. A couple weeks later, the founder of Speak Up, a young man, about 23 years old, named Armin Vitt reached out to me. He wrote me an email, and he apologized. He didn't apologize for calling my work a pair of turds, which is what it

我还不知道粪球是成对出现的。看来我懂得太少了。

I didn't realize turds came in pairs. Shows what I know.

年轻人嘛。但他确实为霸凌行为和对话中不专业的方式道了歉——同时明确表示他依然认为我的作品是'一对粪球'，只是觉得那样对待我不对。我小心翼翼地回复了他，接受了道歉。但当时我对整个博客现象非常着迷。

Youth. And and but he so he apologized for the bullying and for the unprofessional way in which the conversation ensued as opposed to he made it very clear that he still thought my work was a pair of turds, but he didn't feel that it was right the way that I had been, spoken to. And I took a lot of care in responding to him. I accepted his apology. But at the time, I was really fascinated by this whole blogging thing.

这种实时交流、让人负责的方式让我很感兴趣。我给他写了篇长篇大论。他回复说：'那你愿意为网站写文章吗？'我当时就震惊了，完全没想到会这样。

It was really interesting to me, this sort of real time communication, holding people accountable. And I wrote him this sort of diatribe about it. And he responded and said, well, would you like to write for the site? And I was like, woah. Didn't expect that one.

于是我说好。我开始为Speak Up撰稿。然后我

And I so I said yes. And I started writing for Speak Up. And I

达斯·维达专栏。

The Darth Vader the Darth Vader column.

蒂姆，关于经历最有趣的是——那些所谓精英设计圈（AIGA圈子）的人早已拒绝了我，而此刻连叛逆的反AIGA阵营也在排斥我。那一刻，我确实觉得自己成了平面设计界最遭人恨的女性。

Well, what was so interesting about experience, Tim, was that the sort of what they were the what the speak uppers were calling the precious design world, the AIGA world, they had already rejected me. And now the renegades, the anti AIGA contingent, they were rejecting me. So at that moment, I actually felt like the most hated woman in graphic design.

无主武士。哪里

Masterless samurai. Where

去？没错。之后发生的事情非常超现实——2003年5月我原以为跌至职业生涯谷底的时刻，反而成了后来一切成就的催化剂。我开始为Speak Up撰稿时，突然找到了最初创办这个平台时追寻的那种归属感，仿佛自己正参与着某种超越个体的伟大事业。

to? Exactly. So what what happened after that was it was really surreal, and this is why I say that what felt like at the time in May 2003 to be the lowest point of my professional career actually became the catalyst upon which everything else has been built. And so I started writing for Speak Up, And all of a sudden, I started to have that sense of what I had been originally searching for in my efforts with Speak Up. I felt like I was part of something bigger than myself.

我感觉自己加入了一群试图通过设计评论和线上对话改变世界的叛逆怪咖。2003年我们决定以游击撰稿团的形式参加温哥华的AIGA年会，还准备分发阿尔敏制作的小册子《拒绝盲从》（戏仿字体大师埃里克·斯皮克曼《别再偷羊》的书名，那本是讲字距调整的）。我们竭尽所能地精雕细琢，带着这份小册子踏上了会议征程。

I felt like I was part of this sort of renegade group of misfits that were trying to change the world through graphic design criticism and online conversations. We all decided that year in the 2003 that we were going to go as a group of sort of guerrilla speak up writers to the upcoming AIGA annual conference in Vancouver. And we were gonna give out this little brochure that Armin had put together called stop being sheep, which was a riff on the great typographer Eric Spiekerman's book, stop stealing sheep, which is about letter spacing. You know, thin slicing here to the very best of our ability. And so we went with this little brochure en route to the conference.

所以这些人最终接纳了你？那些曾经抨击过你的人？你当时

And so So these people then ended up accepting you? The the people who had previously vilified you? You were The

曾经抨击我的人不仅接纳了我——多年来我和阿尔敏夫妇成为了至交，现在我甚至是他们长女的教母。这很像大学时罗伯特·埃德尔斯坦拒绝我的故事（当时我以为是拒绝），最终却发展成了终身的友谊。如今阿尔敏和布莱妮也成了我的家人。真正的家人。

people that had previously vilified me not only accepted me, but over the years, Armin and his wife, Brianne, and I have become such good friends that I am now the godmother to their eldest daughter. Wow. So sort of similar to that Robert Edelstein story back when I was in Kyle in in college where he rejected me or what I thought was a rejection of me, then ultimately became, one of my lifelong friendships. And now Armin and Bryony are also family at this point. Family.

太棒了。我我我打断了，不过。你现在正在路上

Amazing. I I I interrupted, though. You're so you're en route

所以我是

So I'm

我是一群异端分子和一堆宣传册或小册子。

I'm group of heretics and a and a pile of brochures or pamphlets.

没错。因为宣传册能改变世界。你知道的。而我旁边坐着的人，当时纽约到温哥华只有一班直飞航班。航班上坐满了设计界的大人物，迈克尔·贝鲁特和保拉·切尔，而我旁边是一位美丽优雅的女士，自己却穿着运动裤，拎着一袋麦当劳早餐。

Right. Because brochures change the world. You know that. And I'm sitting next to people, that are also there's one there was, at that time, one direct flight from New York to Vancouver. The flight is filled with design luminaries, Michael Beirut and Paula Cher, and I'm sitting next to a woman who is beautiful and elegant, and I'm wearing sweatpants and carrying a a bag of McDonald's breakfast.

你知道吗？唯一喜欢麦当劳早餐气味的只有正在吃它的人，而不是闻到它的人。太真实了

You know? And the only people that like the way McDonald's breakfast smell are the people eating it, not the people smelling it. So True

真实的事实。就是就是

true fact. That's that's

你知道吗，我没想到会在这班飞机上遇到熟人。总之，我开始和旁边这位女士交谈，结果发现她也去参加那个会议。我问她是做什么的，她说她是《印刷》杂志的作家。

You know, I don't know why I didn't think that I would see people that I knew on this flight. I was well, in any case. So I start talking to this woman next to me, and turns out she's going to the conference as well. I ask her what she does. She says she's a writer at print magazine.

我向她介绍了'畅所欲言'项目。她对我们所做的一切都很感兴趣。我告诉她我们将在会议期间举办这个聚会活动。我说想邀请她参加，她给了我一张名片。

I tell her about speak up. She's all interested in what we're doing. She gives me I tell her that we're having this get together, this party over the course of the conference. She's I'd like to invite her. She gives me a card.

我没细看就直接放进了包里。我们聊了大概几个小时，然后各自忙自己的事情，就是飞机上那些琐事。当我到达温哥华的酒店房间时，我从包里拿出她的名片，才发现她是《Print》杂志的主编乔伊斯·雷德·K。我邀请她参加了派对，她来了，之后我们开始了书信往来。

Without looking at it, I put it into my bag. We we talk through, yeah, a couple hours, and then we go off into our own thing with, you know, whatever else we were doing on the flight. When I get to my room, in Vancouver, I take her card out of my bag, and I see that she's the editor in chief, Joyce Redder K. I invite her to the party. She comes, and we start a correspondence.

我一直怀揣着这个梦想，希望有朝一日能为印刷杂志撰稿。几个月后，她写信问我是否愿意参与她正在筹备的项目，为明年在圣地亚哥举办的豪威会议做准备。当时正值真人秀节目刚刚兴起，有个很火的烹饪比赛节目叫《铁人厨师》，观众可以实时投票。她想做个类似节目叫《讽刺厨师》，让三位设计师在舞台上实时创作，由观众投票。这对我来说简直是地狱般的场景。

I had this. I harbored this, hope that maybe I could write for print magazine one day. And a couple of months later, she writes me and asks me if I wanna participate in something she's putting together for the upcoming Howe conference the next year in San Diego. And, it's being at the time, reality TV had had just sort of burgeoned into culture, and was a very popular TV show called Iron Chef about cooking in real time and the audience voting, and she wanted to do a riff on that called ironic chef where three designers would create work on stage in real time and the audience would vote. This to me sounded like the definition of hell.

给大家说明一下，《Print》杂志确实就叫《Print》

And just to clarify for people, print magazine is actually called print

是的

It is

就叫《Print》，是家杂志社。

called print. It's Magazine.

没错，全名是《Print》杂志。这是国内历史最悠久的印刷类杂志，也是最老牌的平面设计杂志，创刊75年了。我记得它获得过五项国家级设计大奖，是综合类优秀奖项——不是专门的设计类奖项。

Right. It is called print magazine. It's the oldest print mag it's the oldest graphic design magazine in the country. It's 75 years old. It has won, I think, five national design awards, general excellence awards for the not national design awards.

很抱歉。杂志奖项，据我所知最高荣誉是艾菲奖，这是杂志能获得的最高奖项。那是一本非常出色的杂志，我曾梦想有朝一日能为它撰稿。

I'm sorry. Magazine awards, which is the highest honor, an Effie, I believe it's called, that a magazine can win. And it was it's it's a remarkable magazine, and I I had this dream of someday writing something for it.

真是讽刺啊，厨师。

So ironic chef.

是的，讽刺的厨师。

Yes. Ironic chef.

戴维·梅尔文个人版的地狱。

Davy Melvin's personal version of hell.

是的。而且...我害怕拒绝。我觉得如果拒绝，就再也没机会和乔伊斯合作了。所以我答应了，结果到了圣地亚哥后更丢脸——当我发现自己必须穿着厨师服上台时。顺便说一句，这事还有照片为证。

Yeah. And and I I'm afraid to say no. If I feel like if I say no, I'm never gonna be offered an opportunity to do anything with Joyce again. So I say yes, and I'm further humiliated when I get to San Diego by real when I realize that I have to wear a chef's outfit on stage. There are pictures of this, by the way.

我没说谎也没夸张。于是我硬着头皮上了台，和主持人史蒂夫·海勒同台——我之前从未见过他。史蒂夫·海勒是世界顶尖的设计评论家，曾任《纽约时报书评》艺术总监长达三十年。

I'm not lying or exaggerating. And so I go through with this. I am on stage with the emcee, Steve Heller, who I'd never met. Steve Heller is one of the world's foremost design critics. He was the art director of the New York Times Book Review for thirty years.

他在视觉艺术学院创办了众多研究生项目，撰写了约170本关于设计和平面设计师的著作。他是评委。我紧张极了，因为他可是史上最伟大的人物之一史蒂夫·海勒。我们共有三位参赛者，我得了第二名——这成绩不算太糟。

He started numerous programs at school of visual arts, graduate programs, and he's written about a 170 books about design and graphic designers. He is the judge. I am terribly intimidated because he is Steve Heller, one of the greatest people that has ever lived. And there are three of us. I come in second, which is not terrible.

我没有赢，但也没有输。在又一次反常的勇气驱使下，我询问了史蒂夫——因为那天他对我很友善——是否愿意等我们回到纽约市后共进午餐。他也住在纽约市。他同意了。我们一起去吃了午饭。

I don't win, but I don't lose. And in another aberrant moment of courage, I asked Steve because he was nice to me that day if he'd wanna have lunch in New York City when we were back. He lived in New York City as well. He agrees. We go to lunch.

我当时非常紧张。我准备了一张写满话题的备忘单，用来和史蒂夫聊天。我把内容写在餐巾纸上，放在膝盖上，这样万一卡壳不知道说什么时可以参考。总之，我有些出书的想法。史蒂夫说这两个想法都很糟糕。

I was so intimidated. I had a cheat sheet that I'd prepared of topics in which I could discuss with Steve. I wrote it on a paper napkin, put it in my lap, and I could refer to it if I choked and knew not what to say next. In any case, I had some book ideas. Steve told me they were both bad.

我离开时有点沮丧，但还是很高兴见到他。他告诉我要保持耐心，总会等到出书机会。四个月后，在史蒂文·海勒的推荐下，有出版社联系我，提供了一本他拒绝的书稿。他们原本想让他写的书有个可怕的名字：《如何像顶尖平面设计师一样思考》。我再次觉得，如果拒绝这次机会，以后可能再也没人找我写书了，于是接下了这个项目。但我请求用不同方式撰写，因为我不认为顶尖平面设计师只有一种思考方式。

I went away a little bit discouraged, but still happy that I met him, and he told me that I'd I'd get a book just to be patient. Four months later, a publisher calls at the recommendation of Steven Heller with a book that he had turned down. They had wanted him to write with the horrific title, how to think like a great graphic designer. Once again, I think if I don't say yes to this, I'm never gonna be asked for anything again, and I take on this book. But I asked them if I could do it in a different way because I didn't believe that there was just one way for a great graphic designer to think.

思考方式有无数种。我能否通过采访顶尖平面设计师来揭示他们的思维方式？他们同意了，这成了我的第一本书。与此同时，《Print》杂志编辑乔伊斯·莱德·凯联系我，问我是否愿意为沃利·奥林即将出版的品牌书籍写篇评论。我答应了。

There were myriad ways. And could I interview great graphic designers and reveal how they think? They agreed, and that became my first book. In the meantime, Joyce, Ryder Kay, the editor of Print Magazine, reaches out and asks me if I'd like to write a review about Wally Olin's then upcoming book on branding. I agree.

那年我为《Print》杂志写了第一篇稿件，此后每一期都有我的文章。

I write my first piece for Print Magazine that year, and I've written for every single issue since.

哇。

Wow.

十三年后，也就是两年前，我被任命为《Print》杂志的编辑与创意总监。

Thirteen years later, two years ago, I was appointed the editorial and creative director of print magazine.

嗯，看来那些宣传册确实起了作用。

Well, seems like those brochures did play a role.

没错。而且这才刚刚开始，蒂姆。如果不是因为《Speak Up》和那个故事，我后来在2004年就被一个名为Voice America的新兴网络电台联系了——就在我和马克·金斯利写的那篇关于选举图形的文章有点走红后不久。他们想让我主持一档关于品牌建设的节目。我担心如果拒绝就再没机会了，于是问能否以品牌为主题，但更多讨论设计，并向他们推销这个‘设计事务’电台节目的点子。

Yep. And and that's just the start of it, Tim. If it weren't for Speak Up and that story, I was then, contacted by a fledgling Internet radio network called Voice America in 2004 shortly after a piece that Mark Kingsley and I wrote about election graphics that kinda went viral. And they wanted me to host a show about branding. I was worried that if I said no, I'd never get another opportunity again and asked if I could sort of do it about branding, but maybe do more about design and pitch this idea to them about design matters, radio network show.

他们同意了。就在我开始幻想‘哦，我可能要靠这个发财了’的时候，他们告诉我需要支付播出时段费用。

They said yes. Just when I was beginning to think, oh, I might get rich from this, they told me that I needed to pay them for the airtime.

惊喜啊。又一个‘惊喜’。

Surprise. Another surprise.

但我对此非常兴奋。那时候我做的一切都充满商业动机，而这件事让我能以毫无商业价值的方式谈论平面设计、与人交流。这完全是为了满足我们的灵魂，创作灵魂。就这样《设计事务》诞生了——我的播客在这个叫Voice America的韦恩式网络电台诞生了。

But I was really excited about this. And at that time, you know, everything I was doing was very commercially driven and felt that this would be a way for me to talk about graphic design and engage with people in a way that had no commercial value whatsoever. It was just all about how to satisfy sort of our souls, our creative souls. And that's how design matters was born. My podcast was born on this sort of Wayne's Internet radio network called Voice America.

我在Voice America做了四年节目，付了他们四年费用，后来把节目带到了Design Observer。已故的伟大比尔·德兰特尔——Design Observer的创始人——在2009年邀请我把节目迁过去，条件是我得提升音质。当时我用两个听筒做节目，就是那种...你知道的，家里用两部电话分机通话时的回声效果。对，那就是我早期的节目状态，完全不懂行。

I did the show for four years on Voice America, paid them for four years to do it, and then brought the show to Design Observer. Bill Drantel, the the late great Bill Drantel, the founder of Design Observer, invited me to bring the show over to Design Observer in 2009 with the proviso that I improved my sound quality. I was doing my show with two handsets, you know, that you ever, you know, have have a conversation with two people on the same phone line in your house, and you're on different handsets in different parts of the house and the echo and all of that. Yeah. Those were my early shows, but I had no idea what I was doing.

我起步时根本没有播客这个概念。我把节目上传到iTunes纯属好玩，只为能分享出去。如今十二年后——准确说是三周后——就是《设计事务》十二周年纪念了。难以置信。我们在2009年2月获得了库珀·休伊特国家设计奖。

There was there was no podcast when I started. I started to upload my show to iTunes just for the kick of it, just to be able to share it. And, now twelve years later, three weeks, I'm gonna have my twelfth anniversary of Design Matters. Amazing. We won a a Cooper Hewitt National Design Award in 02/2009.

2015年2月底，iTunes——你们知道这个是因为你们总在榜单上。但经过十一年后，iTunes将其评为平台最佳播客之一。我已经将节目从探讨设计为何重要，转型为讲述创意人士如何设计人生轨迹。从这次对话中，你们大概能看出我有多着迷于人们如何塑造生活——他们的选择、生活方式、梦想以及最终成为的样子。这就是节目现在的方向，而我即将迎来第三百期节目。

The end of 02/2015, iTunes and you know this because you're always on the list. But after eleven years, iTunes designated it one of the best podcasts on iTunes. And I've I've transitioned the show from a show about why design matters to a show about how creative people design their lives and the trajectory that people take. And and even from this conversation, you can probably tell how interested I am in how people make their lives, the choices that they make, and how they live, and what they dream about, and what they become. And so that's the the direction that the show has taken, and I'm about to approach my three hundredth episode.

恭喜，这真是个重大里程碑。你这种独特的关注视角和投入程度，在节目内容中体现得淋漓尽致。我们曾在你的工作室共度时光，那确实是我经历过最愉快、最引人入胜的访谈对话之一。

Congratulations. That's a huge milestone. And and you being interested in the in the way that you are and with the intensity that you are interested, I think it's very well reflected in the episodes themselves, and we've spent some time in your studio. Yes. It is one one one of the most lovely and engaging conversations I've I've ever had in interview format.

那对我来说是次异常轻松有趣的体验，你知道这并不常见。我强烈推荐大家都去听听《设计重要》，但今天我想聊聊你的某些决定——特别是关于一个我最近才听说的名字：米尔顿·格拉瑟。其实我们可以聊上二十小时...

It was it was such such a relaxed and fun experience for me, which is not the norm as as you know. So I I certainly recommend everyone check out design matters, but I want to talk about some of your decisions and specifically, we could talk for twenty hours, but I want to talk about a name that I had not heard in my life until very recently, Milton Glaser.

嗯是的。

And Yes.

你刚提到曾为汉堡王、星球大战、好时巧克力、纯果乐这些品牌做过形象升级或品牌重塑？

As you'd mentioned, you'd done, I guess, brand makeovers or branding for Burger King, Star Wars, I think you, Hershey's Tropicana,

你是用这个词吗？对的。

I think was the word? Yes.

纯果乐。如果我记错了请纠正。但可以说在某个时期，当你走进任意杂货店或超市时，目之所及约20%的商品包装都经过你的设计？大概是这样吧？

Tropicana. Tell me if I'm getting this wrong. But, you know, at one point, if you walked in any grocery store, supermarket, etcetera, you had a hand in, say, 20% of everything that you saw. Something something like that.

这难道不疯狂吗？是的，确实

Isn't that crazy? Yes. It's

疯狂。我是说，当你考虑到不同产品的数量时，那简直令人难以置信。对吧？那些SKU。对于好奇CPG是什么的人来说，它指的是消费品包装商品。

nuts. And I mean, that's that's mind blowing when you consider the number of of different products. Right? The SKUs. And for people who are wondering what CPG is, consumer packaged goods.

所以在某个时刻，你的手曾参与过一系列令人难以置信的、丰富多样的产品。米尔顿·格拉瑟是如何进入这个场景的？你能向不了解他的人介绍一下他是谁吗？

And so at some at some point, your hand was involved in just an incredible array, and and plenitude of of different products. How did how did Milton Glaser enter the scene, and could you describe for people who he is?

米尔顿·格拉瑟是设计界的元老级人物，无疑是世界上最伟大的在世平面设计师之一，现年八十多岁。他创作了'我爱纽约'标志，设计了那张标志性的鲍勃·迪伦侧脸海报——彩色发丝飘扬的版本，还是《纽约杂志》的联合创始人之一。

Milton Glaser is the elder statesman of the design world and is the world's one of certainly, of, if not the greatest living graphic designer. He's in his eighties. He is responsible for the iHeart New York logo. He did that iconic Bob Dylan poster of Bob Dylan in profile with the streams of colorful hair. He is one of the founders of New York Magazine.

他的成就数不胜数。他对世界产生了深远影响，创造了众多令人难忘、家喻户晓的标志性品牌形象。我与米尔顿的缘分始于2005年，当时我在视觉艺术学院参加了他教授的暑期强化班。虽然之前为《设计重要》节目电话采访过他，但那是我非常早期的采访之一，现在回想起来仍有些忐忑，不太敢推荐大家去听——毕竟那是我播客生涯的起点。

The list goes on and on. He's had more impact and created some of the most memorable, well known, and iconic brands and identities in the world. My my relationship with Milton really began when I took a class of his at the school of visual arts, a summer intensive, in the 2005. I had already interviewed him for design matters, but it was over the phone. And I while I I cherish that interview, it was one of my very, very early interviews, so I'm still as I'm I'm somewhat gun shy to to send people to listen to that one because it's so early in my journey as a podcaster.

无论如何，我参加了他的课程。有趣的是——就像节目开头我们聊到我八岁的画作和你朋友那篇预言人生的文章——米尔顿教授这个暑期强化班约四五十载，常说这是他做过最重要的事之一（现已不再授课）。课程中有个练习：要我们设想如果追求所有渴望并确信必定成功时，人生会是什么模样。

But in any case, I took this class with him. And that that class you know, it's interesting about how we started the show talking about my eight year old drawing and and you talking about your friend who had written this essay that then predicted his life. Milton taught this summer intensive, I think, for about forty or fifty years, and he used to say that it was one of the most important things that he did. He's not teaching it anymore. He had us do an exercise in that class where we had to envision the life that we could have if we pursued everything that we wanted with the certainty that whatever it is that we wanted, we would succeed.

我在2005年7月（抱歉不是2000年5月）写了篇五年计划的文章。他要求我们大胆梦想、不加修饰，并说这个练习有种他反复见证的神奇魔力，因此要小心许愿。

And I I wrote an essay in May 2000 and no. I'm sorry. July 2005. It was supposed to be a five year plan. And he asked us to dream big and not to edit and said that it had a bit of a magical quality that he experienced with his students over and over, so to be careful what we wished for.

当初我写这篇文章时，设定了这些看似遥不可及的长期目标，如今十二年过去，我可以告诉你它们几乎都实现了。这简直不可思议。所以现在我把这个练习带给了我的学生们。弥尔顿对我的影响之深远，除了...你知道的...他对世界的深远影响之外，无人能及。

And I created this essay with these long ranging, far fetched goals that I can tell you now twelve years later, have almost all come true. It is spooky. Spooky. And so that's an exercise I do now with my students. He's had Milton has had one of the most profound impacts on my life aside from, you know, the profound impact he's had on the world.

能成为他的学生，并有机会多次采访他，我深感幸运。与他建立的这段关系，无疑是我生命中最幸运的际遇之一。

I feel really, really lucky that I have been a student of his and have gotten to interview him now numerous times and and feel that my relationship with him is is certainly one of the luckiest things that's ever happened to me.

你能描述一下现在你带学生做的这个练习吗？

Can you describe the exercise as you do it with your students now?

我在视觉艺术学院教授本科和研究生课程，负责品牌策划硕士项目。这个机会是史蒂夫·海勒给我的——要不是当年那次演讲经历，我根本不会认识他。所以说，蒂姆，我现在生活中的每件事都源自那次经历。

Well, I teach undergrad and graduate classes at school of visual arts. I run a master's in branding program at the school of visual arts, which I was given this opportunity via Steve Heller, who I, again, would not have met had that whole speak up experience not happened. So yet another thing, every single thing that I'm doing now in my life, Tim, stems from that experience.

不过话说回来，从某种角度看，他其实拒绝过你的两个出书提案，尽管他对你很好，还请你吃午饭。但后来你维系住了这段关系，最终让你在视觉艺术学院站稳脚跟。

Well, also just to just to underscore another theme, he had, in in some sense, you could interpret rejected two of your book ideas even though he's nice to you and took and and went out to lunch with you. But now later on down the line, you you kept that relationship and lands you at SVA.

确实。史蒂夫是我认识的最慷慨、最有魅力的人之一。我常开玩笑说他是我的神仙教父，因为他是唯一...或者说极少数能让我感受到纯粹给予的人——'拿着这个，去做那件事'这种毫无保留的慷慨。

Absolutely. I mean, Steve is one of the most generous and engaging people I have had the privilege of of knowing. And I I often tease Steve and say that he's my fairy godfather because he's the only person in my life or maybe one of two people in my life now that I could say has just been he he has this sort of generosity that is all about here. Take this. Do that.

'把这个实现吧，这是给你的'——没有任何条件、束缚或义务。自2004年2月相识以来，他就这样一次又一次地给予我帮助。

Make this happen. This is for you. With no strings, no ties, no obligations. It's just pure generosity. And he has done that over and over and over and over again for me since meeting him back in 02/2004.

现在我给学生布置的这个练习，因为他们比我当年做五年规划时要年轻得多，我让他们制定一个十年规划。这让他们有机会真正成长，探索二十多岁到三十出头的人生。这个十年规划我称之为非凡人生规划，是想象如果你能无所畏惧地做任何事，生活会变成怎样。这些规划书是最能体现生命力的文章。

So the exercise that I do now with my students because they're quite a bit younger than I was when I was doing this five year essay or a five year plan, I asked them to do a ten year plan. And so this gives them a chance to really mature into who they are in their twenties and into their early thirties. And it's this ten year plan for what I call a remarkable life. And it's about imagining what your life could be if you could do anything you wanted without any fear of failure. And they are the most life affirming essays.

这些规划充满了希望、乐观、幸福和善意，让我觉得人类还有救。所以我借鉴了米尔顿的这个练习，现在既在研究生课程也在本科教学中使用。

They are so full of hope and optimism and well-being and goodness that it gives me a sense that humanity is can be saved. And so I've I've borrowed that exercise from Milton and now use that both in my graduate program and the undergraduate classes that I teach.

这听起来可能有点书呆子气，但我就是个书呆子，所以我就直说了。对于想尝试这个练习的听众，你有什么参数建议或推荐方法吗？是用要点列举还是完整段落？

This is gonna seem nerdy, but I'm a nerd, so I'll I'll run with it. And that is, do you do you have any parameters for people at home who might want to try this or recommendations, ways to start? Is it bullets or is it pros and full

不，其实是

No. It's so it's

完整段落。对想尝试的人有什么建议吗？

full paragraph. Yeah. Any any recommendations for people who would like to give this a stab?

假设现在是2027年冬天，你的生活是怎样的？你在做什么？住在哪里？和谁一起生活？

So let's say it is winter twenty twenty seven. What does your life look like? What are you doing? Where are you living? Who are you living with?

你有养宠物吗？住在什么样的房子里？是公寓吗？在城市还是乡村？

Do you have pets? What kind of house are you in? Is it an apartment? Are you in the city? Are you in the country?

你的家具是什么样子的？你的床是什么样的？床单呢？你穿什么类型的衣服？你的发型是怎样的？

What are your what does your furniture look like? What is your bed like? What are your sheets like? What kind of clothes do you wear? What kind of hair do you have?

跟我聊聊你的宠物。谈谈你的另一半。你有孩子吗？你有车吗？有船吗？

Tell me about your pets. Tell me about your significant other. Do you have children? Do you have a car? Do you have a boat?

你会谈论自己的职业吗？你想要什么？你在读什么书？正在创作什么？什么让你感到兴奋？

Do you have talk about your career. What do you want? What are you reading? What are you making? What excites you?

你的健康状况如何？写下这一天，十年后的这一天。2027年的某一天，你的一整天会是什么样子？从你醒来的那一刻开始，刷牙、喝咖啡或茶，一直到晚上入睡。那一天对你来说是什么样的？

What is your health like? And write this day, this one day, ten years from now. So one day in the 2027, what does your whole day look like? Start from the minute you wake up, brush your teeth, have your coffee or tea, all the way through till when you tuck yourself in at night. What is that day like for you?

大胆梦想。毫无畏惧地梦想。把一切都写下来。你不需要与任何人分享，除了你自己。全心全意地投入，像没有明天一样去写。

Dream big. Dream without any fear. Write it all down. You don't have to share it with anyone other than yourself. Put your whole heart into it and write like there's no tomorrow.

像生命取决于此一样去写，因为它确实如此。然后每年读一次，看看会发生什么。这很神奇，蒂姆，这太神奇了。我太喜欢这个了。

Write like your life depends on it because it does. And then read it once a year and see what happens. It's magic. It's magic, Tim. It is I love this.

我需要这么做。我不是在为某个假想的听众而问。听众们，我爱你们，但这也是为我自己。

I need to do this. I'm not asking for some hypothetical listener. Listeners, I love you guys, but this is this is also for me.

这太令人震惊了。现在我对我所有的学生都这样做，我无法告诉你我收到了多少来自十年前学生的来信，他们都说，黛比，一切都成真了。这是怎么发生的？我无比激动这些事能带来改变。这让我回想起我们对话中早些时候提到的，关于我自己对能成为、将成为或应成为什么样的人的恐惧。

It is astounding. And I do this now with all of my students, and I can't begin to tell you how many letters I get from students from ten years ago that are like, Debbie, it all came true. How did this happen? And I am so thrilled that these things can make a difference. And this goes back to our the earlier part of our conversation about my own fears about what I could or would or should become.

而想到在我生命中的同一时期，站在Bleecker街和第六大道的交叉口，深深凝视自己的未来，却不知道一切皆有可能——能给处于人生同样阶段或任何阶段的人（尤其是那个脆弱、充满自我怀疑的阶段），给予那一丝梦想和希望，让他们宣告自己想要的生活，我认为这是一项非凡的练习。所以我称之为'非凡人生的十年计划'。

And the idea that at that same time in my life, that intersection on Bleecker Street and Sixth Avenue peering deep into my future and not knowing that anything was possible for me, to give somebody at that same stage in their life or any stage, really, but particularly at that vulnerable vulnerable stage when you are so worried about what you can or can't become, to give somebody that sliver of a dream, of a hope that this could happen and have them declare what they want, I think, is a remarkable exercise. That's why I call it your ten year plan for a remarkable life.

你的文章有多长？他们的篇幅要求有统一标准吗？还是想写多长都行？有些是两页，有些是二十页。

How long was your essay? And is is there any consistency to length of their guidelines, or is it as long as it takes? And some are two pages. Some are 20 pages.

有些是两页，有些是二十页。我觉得写得越长，不知为何就越可能被认可。我发现投入的心思越多，细节越丰富...哎呀。

Some are two pages. Some are 20 pages. I think the longer it is, the more likely it is to be affirmed for some reason. I find the more care you put into it, the more the more care and detail you put in. Oops.

哦，狗狗。

Oh, doggy.

那是...那是狗狗。对，那是我的莫莉。抱歉，她对这个练习很兴奋。

That's that's doggy. Yeah. That's that's my Molly. Sorry. She's excited about this exercise.

请给

Please give

我来说说这个。显然，我认为你投入的关心越多，从中获得成功的可能性就越大。我当时是写在日记本里的，大约5x7英寸大小，用了大概10页大号手写体。

me that. Clearly. I think that, the more care you put into it, the likely the more success you'll have coming out of it. Mine was I wrote it in a journal that I was keeping at the time. So it was about five by seven, and it was probably about 10 handwritten big handwriting.

我的字写得很大。10页大号手写体，记录了一整天。由于我对此非常兴奋，又喜欢列清单，我就把所有希望实现的愿望列了出来。

I had big handwriting. 10 big handwriting pages, and it was the whole day. And then because I was really excited about it and because I love lists, I made a list of everything that I wanted to come true.

好吧，我想这部分可以告一段落了，我们可能还会有更多对话。我还有很多问题想问，但考虑到人们有首因效应和近因效应，我希望他们记住这个可操作的建议——这是本次访谈中值得探索的内容。不过在结束前，我想问问大家在哪里可以找到你、了解你的工作？除此之外，你还有什么临别建议、推荐或问题想留给听众吗？

Well, I tell you, I think that might be a good place to wrap up this part one, which I think we I think we may have more conversations than us. I have so many questions I'd still like to ask, but I think that is a a given people have a primacy and recency bias, I want them to remember this exercise as as one of one of the the actionable recommendations that they can they can they can certainly explore from this interview, and there's so much. But let me ask before I let you go, and, I'll ask where people can find you and so on, learn more about your work. But before that, is there any parting piece of advice or recommendation, question, anything that you'd like listeners to carry with them when they stop listening to this?

让我想想。最近我经历了人生重大转折，当时必须做出一个艰难决定，过程漫长到亲友都不愿再听我反复纠结了，因为他们觉得我永远做不了决定。现在回顾这个决定，我有个重要领悟或许能帮助大家：自大学毕业后我一直有全职工作。

Well, let's see. I I recently went through a pretty major transition in my life, and it was something that I had to make a a pretty big decision about. And it was a somewhat prolonged, agonizing decision so much so that my friends and and loved ones were no longer listening to my sort of machinations in making the decision because I thought that I never was going to actually make the decision. And so I can share that because I do think on the other side of that decision now is an important realization that I think can help people. I was working I I've had a full time job since I graduated college.

过去22年我在品牌咨询公司Sterling Brands工作，很幸运在13年后成为合伙人并参与了公司出售。2008年2月，我和两位合伙人将公司卖给了Omnicom集团。当时我正与Steve Heller合作在视觉艺术学院创办品牌硕士项目，通过把课程设为夜校来兼顾Sterling的白天工作。

And for the last twenty two years, I was working at a branding consultancy, as I mentioned, called Sterling Brands and had, been very lucky to be able to sell the company, that I was a part of and and ultimately a partner in, after, about thirteen years of of working there. So in 02/2008, the two partners that I had, the man that originally hired me, Simon Williams and then Austin McGee, who is, the third partner to come in after me, we sold our company to, Omnicom. And at the time, I had been offered this opportunity with Steve Heller to start the master's in branding program at the School of Visual Arts and organized my time so that my day job at Sterling Brands wouldn't be impacted by what I was going to be doing at SVA, which was made possible by starting my branding program as an evening program. So I had two full time jobs, a day job at at Sterling and my night job at SVA. And most people thought that I would go through my earnout at at Sterling and and then leave and transition to working at SVA and doing all of the personal projects that I had been talking for so long about doing.

五年盈利期圆满结束后，我没了继续原路的借口。我最怕成为《革命之路》里那些终生空谈改变却永不行动的角色。但我突然恐惧起来——担心改变会失去经济稳定，无法实现梦想，必须直面现实。

And so the five years happened, and we had a a really wonderful successful earnout. So there was no excuse to him for me to continue on on the same path, and it was time to make that change. And the last thing I wanted was to end up like the characters in revolutionary road, that remarkable book where people talk about making these changes their whole lives and then never ever do. But I became terrified. I became terrified that if I made this change that I would not have financial stability anymore, that I would not be able to fulfill all of the dreams that I had and would have to confront that.

于是五年拖成六年，六年拖成七年。就在我像《教父3》的阿尔·帕西诺那样考虑行动时，时任CEO西蒙·威廉姆斯想转任董事长，问我是否愿意接任CEO——这成了我人生最重大的抉择。

And so five years turned into six years, and six years turned into seven years. And just at a point where I was starting to think about really doing it, sort of like Al Pacino in godfather three, I was offered an opportunity to take over as CEO of the company. Simon Williams, the then CEO, was looking to become chairman and needed to appoint a new CEO, and he came to me and asked me if I wanted the job. And here it was. This is the big decision of a life.

我是要成为CEO，继续享有金钱、事业、安全感和世俗认可的一切？还是说，不，我其实不会加倍投入。我要按照自己一直向往的方式生活，拥有更多自由和机会去做个人项目、公益项目，回馈社会。我必须做出决定。

Do I become the CEO and have this amazing continuation of money and career and security and everything else that is conventionally approved of? Or do I say, no. Actually, I am not going to double down. I'm going to live the way in which I have been saying I wanted to with more freedom and more opportunity to do personal projects and pro bono projects and give back. And I had to decide.

我花了四个月才下定决心。西蒙·威廉姆斯最后对我说：'黛比，任何需要你纠结四个月的事，很可能意味着你根本不想做。'这是我人生中最艰难的决定，但我拒绝了。我婉拒了CEO职位。随后发生了两件事。

And it took me four months to decide. Simon Williams finally said to me, Debbie, anything that takes you four months to decide probably means you don't wanna do it. And it was the hardest decision of my life, but I turned it down. I turned the CEO job down. And then two things happened.

首先我意识到，自己就像吊在秋千上。我的身体每个关节都死死抓着其他秋千，就是不肯放手去做别的事。这种心态认为：如果做得不够多，我就不够格；赚得不够多，就不够格；产出不够多，就不够格。

First of all, one of the things that I realized was that I was in this trapeze. And rather than just let go of the trapeze and do something else, I had every single crook of my body holding on to some other trapeze. And that there was this sense of if I am not doing enough, I am not worthy. If I am not making enough, I am not worthy. If I'm not producing enough, I am not worthy.

突然间我明白，不仅要松开秋千，更要放下整个器械装置。如今我悟到两点：第一，多数人活在匮乏感中。我们以为现有的一切就是全部，放弃任何东西都意味着失去。

And suddenly, I had to not just let go of the trapeze, but let go of the entire apparatus. And I have realized now two things. One, most people live in a world of scarcity. We think that all we have now is all we were ever have. And if we give something up, we will just have less.

但事实是，当我们给自己留出接收新事物的空间时，根本想象不到会有多少可能性涌现。所以现在，比起预想的损失，我获得的反而更多——因为我正在做的这些新事物，都是曾经不敢想象的。第二，艰难的决定只在做决定时艰难。一旦做出选择，就不再困难，剩下的只是生活与自由。

What ends up happening is that we don't think about all the possibilities of things that could come up if we give ourselves openings to receive them. And so now as opposed to having less than what I thought, I have way more because I have all these new things that I'm doing that I never would have thought possible. Second, that hard decisions are only hard when you're in the process of making them. Once you make them, they're not hard anymore. Then it's just life and freedom.

这段非凡的经历，我真心希望能分享给各位听众。

And it's an extraordinary experience that I really would like to share with your listeners, with our listeners.

这确实是个多层次的重要讨论。我认为有些观点值得重申，而且这也与我的经历产生共鸣：第一，做决定时的煎熬往往比决定结果本身更痛苦。事实上，在很多情况下（并非全部），如果你做了决定后发现不适合，完全可以退出改选。这未必是终身判决。

It's it's such an important discussion, on many levels, and I I want I think it bear it's worth repeating a few things, and, certainly, this echoes in my experience as well. One, that agonizing over the decision is often harder than whatever the outcome of the decision will be. And for that matter, if you make in in many cases, not all, but in many cases, if you make a decision and you decide that it's not the right decision for you, you can quit. You can do something else. It's not a a permanent sentence necessarily.

而且，这也是我一生中不得不反复学习的一点：如果做一个决定需要花那么长时间，你可能并不、也不应该去做那些让你痛苦纠结、列利弊清单试图合理化的事情。我认为这两点都非常、非常重要。

And, also, this is something that I've had to learn and relearn many times in my life, which is if it's taking you that long to make a decision, you probably don't and shouldn't don't want to and shouldn't do whatever it is that you're agonizing over with pro and con lists trying to justify in some fashion. It's it's and and both of those points, I think, are so, so important.

我还认为，如果你在行动前等待感觉对的那一刻，等待那种安全感或自信，那就像是在享乐跑步机上奔跑。如果你觉得必须先拥有足够多的某样东西才能行动，那么当你真的得到你以为需要的东西时，又会提高标准——如果那不是真实需求，你永远无法对自设的前提条件感到满足。比如你觉得‘要有这么多钱才能做这事’，等真有了这笔钱，又会觉得‘其实需要更多’，就像永远追不到的胡萝卜。另外我要引用作家丹妮·夏皮罗的话——

I also think that if you're waiting for something to feel right before you do it, if you're waiting for a sense of security or confidence, that those things are sort of like being on a hedonistic treadmill. If you think you need enough of this before you do that, when you achieve whatever that is you think you need, you're gonna then up the ante, and you're never ever going to be satisfied with whatever it is you think you need before you do something if it's not something that is real. So So if you if you think, oh, I need this much money before I do this. When you get that much money, then you're gonna realize, oh, I actually think I need this much more, and it's just gonna be this carrot in front of you that you are in you're that you're agonizing over trying to reach. And then the other thing is I'm gonna quote Dani Shapiro here, the great writer Dani Shapiro.

‘如果你在等待自信...’我曾问她关于自信的看法，她说自信被严重高估了，过度自信的人往往很烦人。她认为比自信更重要的是勇气，我完全赞同。迈出第一步需要勇气，自信只源于反复成功的尝试。对等待自信降临的人，请鼓起勇气迈出第一步——哪怕只是瞬间的勇气——让我们回到对话开头。

If you're waiting for confidence and she I asked her once about confidence, and she said that confidence is highly, highly overrated and that most confident people or overly confident people tend to be kind of annoying. And she said what she felt was more important than confidence was courage, And I fully, fully agree taking that first step. Confidence really only comes from repeated attempts at doing something successfully. But in order to take that first step, you need courage, and that's much more important than confidence. So for anybody that's waiting for the confidence to show up, take the first step in a moment of courage, even if it's aberrant courage to come full circle in this conversation.

绝佳的建议，这让我想起朋友纳瓦尔·拉维康特的兄弟卡迈勒·拉维康特说过的话。纳瓦尔是极其成功的企业家、投资人，也是出色的作家，他刚出版小说的兄弟卡迈勒同样优秀。但纳瓦尔对弟弟说：‘如果我总做自己够格的事，现在应该在某个地方扫大街。’

Such good advice, and it it reminds me of, something that the brother, Kamal Ravikant, of another friend of mine, Naval Ravikant, told me. So Naval is a very, very successful entrepreneur and investor among other things. Very, very good writer as well as is his brother Kamal, who just had a novel come out. But Nawalka said to his brother, if I always did what I was qualified to do, I'd be pushing a broom somewhere.

说得好。

Well said.

我觉得这话非常非常鼓舞人心。

And I thought that was very, very encouraging.

一针见血。

Touche.

黛比，每次我们共度时光都让我感到无比愉快。大家在哪里可以了解更多关于你的信息呢？他们能在哪里了解到你的作品？你希望人们在社交媒体上通过哪些渠道向你问好——我会把所有相关信息放在节目笔记里，供所有听众查阅。

Debbie, I have so much fun every time we get to spend time together. Where can people find out more about you? Where can they learn more about your work? Where would you like people to say hello on social if if if if that and I'll put all of this in the show notes for everybody who's listening.

当然可以。我在推特和Instagram上的账号是Debbie Millman。你可以在视觉艺术学院的网站sva.edu上了解更多关于我的项目，还有debbiemillman.com，那里可以收听我所有的播客，查看我的视觉文章和书籍等等。

Absolutely. I'm Debbie Millman on Twitter and Instagram. You can see more about my program at the school of visual arts at s v a dot e d u, and debbiemillman.com where you can listen to all my podcasts and see my visual essays and my books and on and so forth.

对于那些刚接触平面设计领域的新手来说，考虑到你的播客内容远不止于此，你会推荐他们从哪一集或哪几集开始听呢？

For people who are not, who who would who would be novices or new entrants into the world of, say, graphic design, recognizing that your podcast is about a lot more than that, which episode or episodes would you suggest they start with?

我建议他们从克里斯·威尔那集开始。他是一位杰出的图像小说家。那是我做过的最喜欢的单集之一。

I would suggest that they start with Chris Ware. He is, an extraordinary graphic novelist. It's my one of the most favorite episodes that I've ever conducted.

他的姓氏怎么拼写？

How do you spell his last name?

W-A-R-E。除此之外，过去一年里我最喜欢的几集——除了与你对谈的那集让我珍视之外——还有与阿曼达·帕尔默的对谈、与阿兰·德波顿的对谈、与克里斯塔·提皮特的对话，以及伟大作曲家尼科·穆利的节目。这些都是去年我最引以为豪的几集。

W a r e. And from there, some of my favorite episodes over the last year, aside from my episode with you, which I cherish, my episodes with Amanda Palmer, my episode with Alain de Botton, my episode with Krista Tippett, Nico Muhly, the great composer. Those are all episodes in the last year that I'm most proud of.

太棒了。黛比，你真是明星级人物。非常感谢你抽空参与。

Wonderful. Debbie, you're a rock star. Thank you so much for the time.

谢谢。谢谢。

Thank you. Thank you.

我真的很感激。对于所有听众，一如既往，你可以在4hourworkweek.com/podcast找到节目笔记、资源链接，以及我们讨论过的所有内容，甚至更多。下次见，感谢收听。嘿，大家好，我是蒂姆。

I really appreciate it. And to everybody listening, as always, you can find show notes, links to resources, all sorts of things that we talked about and maybe more at 4hourworkweek.com/podcast. And until next time, thank you for listening. Hey, guys. This is Tim again.

在你离开之前还有几件事。第一，这是‘五弹星期五’。你想收到我发来的简短邮件吗？每周五收到一封简短的邮件，为周末前带来一点小乐趣，你会喜欢吗？‘五弹星期五’是一封非常简短的邮件，我会分享这周发现或思考的最酷的东西。

Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is five bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week.

可能包括我发现的新专辑，各种稀奇古怪的小玩意儿，以及我在神秘学世界里挖掘到的各种奇怪东西，就像我常做的那样。也可能包括我读过并分享给密友的文章。它非常简短，只是周末前的一小口美味。

That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the the world of the esoteric as I do. It could include favorite articles that I have read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend.

如果你想接收，就去看看。只需访问4hourworkweek.com，输入你的邮箱，你就会收到下一封。如果你注册了，希望你喜欢。本期节目由Wealthfront赞助，这是一个非常独特的赞助商。

So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to 4hourworkweek.com. That's 4hourworkweek.com all spelled out, and just drop in your email, and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by Wealthfront, and this is a very unique sponsor.

Wealthfront是一个极具颠覆性的‘设置后不管’投资服务，由来自苹果等公司的技术专家和世界知名投资者领导。过去两年它迅速走红，现在管理着超过25亿美元的资金。事实上，我在硅谷的一些好朋友，投资者，自己在Wealthfront投入了数百万美元。那么问题是为什么？为什么它这么受欢迎？

Wealthfront is a massively disruptive, in a good way, set it and forget investing service led by technologists from places like Apple and world famous investors. It has exploded in popularity in the last two years and they now have more than 2 and a half billion dollars under management. In fact, some of my very good friends, investors in Silicon Valley have millions of their own money in Wealthfront. So the question is why? Why is it so popular?

为什么它独特？因为你可以获得以前只有超级富豪才能享受的服务，却只需支付极低的费用。这是因为他们使用更智能的软件，而不是实体网点、臃肿的销售团队等。我稍后会再谈这个，我建议你访问wealthfront.com/tim。做一个只需2到5分钟的风险评估测试，他们会免费向你展示为你定制的投资组合。

Why is it unique? Because you can get services previously reserved for the ultra wealthy but only pay pennies on the dollar for them. And this is because they use smarter software instead of retail locations, bloated sales teams, etcetera. And I'll come back to that in a I suggest you check out wealthfront.com/tim. Take the risk assessment quiz which only takes two to five minutes and they'll show you for free exactly the portfolio they put you in.

如果你只想采纳他们的建议，直接行动，自己操作，完全可以。或者像我一样，你可以设置好后就不用管了。原因如下：Wealthfront的价值在于自动化那些投资者本应定期使用却往往忽视的习惯和策略。优秀的投资是一场马拉松，而非短跑。诸如自动税务损失收割、跨10多种资产类别重新平衡投资组合、股息再投资等你可能熟悉或不熟悉的小细节，长期累积下来会变成巨额财富。

And if you just want to take their advice, run with it, do it yourself, you can do that. Or as I would, you can set it and forget it. And here's why. The value of Wealthfront is in the automation of habits and strategies that investors should be using on a regular basis but normally aren't. Great investing is a marathon, not a sprint, and little things that you may or may not be familiar with like automatic tax loss harvesting, rebalancing your portfolio across more than 10 asset classes, and dividend reinvestment add up to very large amounts of money over longer periods of time.

正如我提到的，Wealthfront通过软件而非实体网点运营，能以极低成本提供这些过去完全无法实现的服务。首先，你永远无需支付佣金或账户费。对于超过首笔15,000美元的资产（通过我的链接wealthfront.com/tim注册可免费管理这部分），他们仅收取0.25%的年费。比如管理30,000美元账户每月费用还不到5美元。通常我邀请赞助商上节目是因为我亲自使用并推荐他们。

Wealthfront, as I mentioned, since it's using software instead of retail locations, etcetera, can offer all of this at low cost that were previously completely impossible. Right off the bat, you never pay commissions or account fees. For everything they charge point 25% per year on assets above the first 15,000 which is managed for free if you use my link, wealthfront.com/tim. That is less than $5 a month to invest a $30,000 account for instance. Now normally when I have a sponsor on this show, it's because I use them and recommend them.

但这次情况有些特殊。我尚未使用Wealthfront，因为按规定我不能使用。事情是这样的：他们想赞助这档播客，但根据SEC规定，管理客户资金的公司不得使用客户证言。

In this case, it's a little different. I don't use Wealthfront yet because I'm not allowed to. Here's the deal. They wanted to sponsor this podcast. But because of SEC regulations, companies that invest your money are not allowed to use client testimonials.

所以我不能既是用户又让他们上节目。但Wealthfront令我印象深刻，我已用相当可观的个人资金投资了他们的团队和公司。因此我是股东身份，并希望很快能成为客户。回到推荐环节：作为《蒂姆·费里斯秀》听众，开户即可享受首笔15,000美元免管理费。

So I couldn't be a user and have them on the podcast. But I've been so impressed by Wealthfront that I've invested a significant amount of my own money, at least for me, in the team and the company itself. So I am an investor and hope to soon use it as a client. Now back to the recommendation. As a Tim Ferriss show listener, you'll get $15,000 managed for free if you decide to open an account.

不妨先看看他们为你定制的投资组合。花两分钟在wealthfront.com/tim填写问卷，快速免费，我想不出任何弊端。本期节目由FreshBooks赞助播出。

But just start with seeing the portfolio that they would suggest for you. Take two minutes, fill out their questionnaire at wealthfront.com/tim. It's fast, it's free. There's no downside that I can think of. This episode is brought to you by FreshBooks.

2003年2月，一位名叫迈克·麦克德莫特的忙碌自由职业者（我与他共进过晚餐）误操作覆盖了发票导致工作成果全失。为避免重蹈覆辙，迈克创立了FreshBooks——如今全球自雇专业人士首选的云端会计软件，累计用户超1000万，满足开发票、快速收款、时间追踪等需求。你们很多人正需要这个。九月份，迈克团队全新重构了平台版本，在核心优势即简洁与速度上加倍发力。虽然无法详述所有功能，但你能在30秒内创建品牌发票。

Back in 02/2003, a busy freelancer named Mike McDermott, who I've actually had dinner with, accidentally saved over an invoice and lost all of his work. To make sure that never happened again, Mike set out to create FreshBooks, which is now the number one cloud accounting software designed exclusively for self employed professionals around the world that is used by now 10,000,000 plus folks in total who need to send invoices, get paid fast, and track their time. A lot of you fall in that category. In September, Mike and his entire team relaunched an all new version of their platform built from the ground up, doubled down on what made it great in the first place, namely simplicity and speed. So I can't cover all the features in this particular sponsor read, but you can set a branded invoice in under thirty seconds.

你能查看客户是否查阅了发票，两次点击即可开通在线支付。如需客服支持，铃响三声内必有真人接听。还有诸多功能：用iOS应用拍摄收据照片让报销轻松百万倍等等。这服务实在太棒了。

You can see when a client has looked at their invoice and you can enable online payments in two clicks. If you need customer support, you will get a real human being on the phone in three rings or less. And there are many other things you can do. Take pictures of receipts on your phone using their iOS mobile app and makes expenses a million times easier, etcetera etcetera. It is a rad service.

很多人向我推荐过它，这就是为什么它能成为赞助内容。要获取30天无限制免费试用（无需信用卡），看看全新FreshBooks如何改变你的自由职业生涯，请访问freshbooks.com/tim，并在'你是如何听说我们的'一栏填写Tim（t I m）。网址是freshbooks.com/tim。

A lot of you have recommended to me. That's how this came to be as a sponsorship. So to claim your thirty day unrestricted free trial, that means no credit card needed and see how the brand new FreshBooks can change your freelancing game. Go to freshbooks.com/tim and enter Tim, t I m, in the how did you hear about a section. That is freshbooks.com/tim.