#474：马修·麦康纳——"不，谢谢"的力量、关键人生课程、30余年的日记笔记与捕捉绿灯的艺术

嘿，各位。我是蒂姆。在开始之前，先快速提醒一下。我与Exploding Kittens的优秀团队合作开发的新卡牌游戏《Coyote》，现已荣登全国畅销榜。情况简直疯狂到不行。

Hey, folks. Tim here. Before we get started, just a quick heads up. My new card game, Coyote, which I made with the amazing people at Exploding Kittens, is now a national bestseller. Things are going completely bananas.

它刚刚全面上市。亚马逊、沃尔玛、Target，超过8000家零售店，任何能买到游戏的地方都有售。快去看看吧，在coyotegame.com上观看游戏视频。目前游戏玩法已获得3亿次社交媒体浏览，简直令人难以置信。

It just launched everywhere. Amazon, Walmart, Target, 8,000 plus retail locations, anywhere you can buy games. So check it out, see some videos of gameplay at coyotegame.com. 300,000,000 social views so far of gameplay. It's kind of mind blowing.

几分钟就能学会。我保证你们会笑个不停。这个项目筹备了两年。请尽情享受，快去试试吧。

Takes just minutes to learn. I guarantee you'll have a lot of laughs. This has been in the works for two years. Please enjoy it. Check it out.

Coyotegame.com。现在回到节目。女士们、先生们、男孩女孩们、狐猴松鼠们，世间万物你们好。我是蒂姆·费里斯。欢迎收听新一期的《蒂姆·费里斯秀》，我的工作是解构世界级表现者——那些在各自领域出类拔萃的人物，剖析各种要素：他们的思维框架、提问方式、最爱书籍、影响因素，以及经验教训等等。

Coyotegame.com. Now back to the episode. Hello, ladies and germs, boys and girls, lemurs and squirrels, all things under the sun. This is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss Show, where it is my job to deconstruct world class performers, people who are excellent world class at what they do, to tease out all sorts of things, frameworks, questions they ask, favorite books, influences, you name it, lessons learned.

今天的嘉宾是德州本土演员马修·麦康纳。他是好莱坞最炙手可热的男主角之一。多年前在奥斯汀与选角导演兼制片人唐·菲利普斯的偶遇，让他结识了导演理查德·林克莱特，后者通过邪典电影《年少轻狂》开启了他的演艺生涯。此后，他凭借在《达拉斯买家俱乐部》中饰演罗恩·伍德鲁夫获得奥斯卡奖，参演了40多部票房超10亿美元的电影，并成为制片人、导演，以及Just Keep Living基金会的慈善家，始终坚守德州根基和JK Living哲学。麦康纳还担任Wild Turkey的创意总监，并共同创立了自己的波本威士忌品牌Long Branch。

My guest today is Texas native Matthew McConaughey. He is one of Hollywood's most sought after leading men. A chance meeting in Austin long ago with casting director and producer Don Phillips led him to director Richard Linklater, who launched the actor's career in the cult classic Dazed and Confused. Since then, he has won an Academy Award for his portrayal of Ron Woodruff in Dallas Buyers Club, appeared in more than 40 feature films that have grossed more than $1,000,000,000, and has become a producer, director, and philanthropist with his Just Keep Living Foundation, all the while sticking to his Texas roots and JK Living philosophy. McConaughey also serves as creative director for Wild Turkey and has cocreated his own bourbon, Long Branch.

他担任德克萨斯大学体育部和奥斯汀FC足球俱乐部（他是股东之一）的文化部长（MOC）。麦康纳将于2020年10月20日推出他的首部著作《绿灯》。目前他与妻子卡米拉及三个孩子定居于德州奥斯汀，同时担任德克萨斯大学奥斯汀分校教授。你可以在Facebook（Matthew McConaughey）、Instagram（officiallymcconaughey）和Twitter（@McConaughey）上找到他。书籍官网是greenlights.com。

He serves as minister of culture, MOC, for the University of Texas athletic department in the Austin FC soccer club where he is part owner. McConaughey will launch his first book, Green Lights, on 10/20/2020. He currently resides in Austin, Texas with his wife Camilla and their three kids while he is a professor at the University of Texas in Austin. You can find him on Facebook, Matthew McConaughey, on Instagram, officially McConaughey, and on Twitter at McConaughey. The book's official website is greenlights.com.

请享受这场内容丰富、妙趣横生的对话，嘉宾正是马修·麦康纳本人。本期播客由Helix Sleep赞助。睡眠对我至关重要。过去几年我得出结论：它是万善之源——好情绪、好表现、一切美好似乎都源于优质睡眠。因此我尝试了各种优化方法。

Please enjoy this wide ranging, extremely enjoyable, and entertaining conversation with none other than Matthew McConaughey. This podcast episode is brought to you by Helix Sleep. Sleep is super important to me. In the last few years, I've come to conclude it is the end all be all that all good things, good mood, good performance, good everything seem to stem from good sleep. So I've tried a lot to optimize it.

我试过药丸药剂，各种床垫，你能想到的都试过。最近几年我一直使用Helix Midnight Luxe床垫，客房里也放了一张，朋友的反馈总是赞不绝口，这是他们总会提及的东西。Helix Sleep有个两分钟测试，根据体型和睡眠偏好为你匹配完美床垫。

I've tried pills and potions, all sorts of different mattresses, you name it. And for the last few years, I've been sleeping on a Helix Midnight Luxe mattress. I also have one in the guest bedroom, and feedback from friends has always been fantastic. It's something that they comment on. Helix Sleep has a quiz, takes about two minutes to complete, that matches your body type and sleep preferences to the perfect mattress for you.

Helix为每种体型、每种偏好都准备了专属床垫。比如你喜欢侧卧且钟爱超软床垫？没问题。或者你习惯仰睡且想要坚如磐石的床垫？他们也能满足。

With Helix, there's a specific mattress for each and every body. That is your body, also your taste. So let's say you sleep on your side and like a super soft bed. No problem. Or if you're a back sleeper who likes a mattress that's as firm as a rock, they've got a mattress for you too.

Helix被《GQ》杂志、《Wired》、《Apartment Therapy》等多家媒体评为2020年最佳床垫之选。访问helixsleep.com/tim完成两分钟测试，即可获得为你量身定制、带来极致睡眠的床垫。他们提供十年质保和100天无风险试用，不满意可免费退货。现在亲爱的听众们，Helix特别提供所有床垫立减200美元优惠，外加两个免费枕头，访问helixsleep.com/tim即可获取。

Helix was selected as the number one best overall mattress pick of 2020 by GQ Magazine, Wired, Apartment Therapy, and many others. Just go to helixsleep.com/tim, take their two minute sleep quiz, and they'll match you to a customized mattress that will give you the best sleep of your life. They have a ten year warranty, and you get to try it out for one hundred nights risk free. They'll even pick it up from you if you don't love it. And now my dear listeners, Helix is offering up to $200 off of all mattress orders and two free pillows at helixsleep.com/tim.

这些枕头本身也不便宜，所以免费获得两个是升级优惠。在helixsleep.com/tim上可享受最高200美元折扣和两个免费枕头。就是helix，helixsleep.com/tim，最高减200美元。再提醒一次，访问helixsleep.com/tim查看详情。

These are not cheap pillows either, so getting two for free is an upgraded deal. So that's up to $200 off and two free pillows at helixsleep.com/tim. That's helix, helix,sleep.com/tim for up to $200 off. So check it out one more time. Helix, helix,sleep.com/tim.

本节目由Magic Spoon赞助播出。Magic Spoon是我几乎每天都会吃的一款全新麦片，低碳水、高蛋白、零糖分。一小时前我刚锻炼完就吃了一大碗他们的可可口味。自去年推出以来，Magic Spoon麦片备受关注。《时代》杂志将其列入2019年2月最佳发明榜单，《福布斯》称其为麦片的未来。

This episode is brought to you by Magic Spoon. Magic Spoon is a brand new cereal that I eat just about every day that is low carb, high protein, and zero sugar. I just ate a huge bowl of their cocoa flavor about an hour ago after a short workout. Magic Spoon cereal has received a lot of attention since launching last year. Time magazine included it in their list of best inventions of 02/2019, and Forbes called it the future of cereal.

它的味道就像你童年最爱的甜味麦片。记得吗？但它其实对你有益。每份含11克蛋白质、3克净碳水、0克糖分，仅110卡路里。同时不含麸质、谷物，适合生酮饮食，无大豆成分且非转基因。

It tastes just like your favorite sugary cereal from childhood. Remember that? But it's actually good for you. Each serving has 11 grams of protein, three grams of net carbs, zero grams of sugar, and only 110 calories. It's also gluten free, grain free, keto friendly, soy free, and GMO free.

样样俱全。它非常美味——我这么说并非轻率，因为大多数健康版替代食品并不好吃，但他们真的做到了。Magic Spoon成功了。提供你喜爱的传统麦片口味：可可、糖霜和蓝莓。

All the things. It's delicious. And I don't say that lightly because most of this healthy version of x stuff is not delicious, but these guys really nail it. Magic Spoon has nailed it. It comes in your favorite traditional cereal flavors like cocoa, frosted, and blueberry.

你可以通过magicspoon.com/tim购买混合装尝遍所有口味，或单买一盒/多盒。我今天要再订些可可味——我的最爱。但新推出的两款限定口味蜂蜜坚果和花生酱正在角逐我的新宠，尤其是令人惊艳的花生酱口味，我对花生制品毫无抵抗力。

You can try them all by grabbing a variety pack at magicspoon.com/tim, or you can just grab a box or a bunch of boxes. I'm gonna order some more today of the cocoa, which is my personal favorite. But there's a new contender for favorite flavor because they just launched two limited edition flavors, honey nut and peanut butter, which are delicious. I am a sucker for peanut butter, and, it is outstanding. So I think cocoa and peanut butter are my two new favorite flavors.

趣闻：我的朋友们也对Magic Spoon着迷。节目最受欢迎嘉宾之一Peter Attia医生曾一次吃掉6-7份（他用血糖仪检测过无升糖反应），甚至因此投资了这个品牌。

And fun fact, my friends are also obsessed with magic spoon. One of the podcast's most popular guests, doctor Peter Attia routinely crushes six to seven servings at a time. That's a lot with no glycemic response. He's looked at this with a glucometer. He likes it so much, he invested.

其他朋友——两位优秀男士兼往期节目嘉宾Kevin Rose和Ryan Holiday也投资了它。去magicspoon.com/tim看看吧，选个混合装或我最爱的可可味，体验这份热潮。

Other friends, two very fine gentlemen, and also past podcast guests, Kevin Rose and Ryan Holiday, also invested. So check it out. See what the buzz is about. Go to magicspoon.com/tim and grab a variety pack or cocoa, which is my favorite, or anything else. But see what strikes your fancy.

何不试试混合装？结账时使用优惠码Tim可享免运费和100%满意保证——若不满意可全额退款。

Why not? Try a variety pack, and be sure to use code Tim at checkout. My listeners, that's you. Get free shipping and a 100% happiness guarantee. So if you're not a fan, if you don't love it, they'll give you a full refund.

无需任何理由。再次提醒：magicspoon.com/tim。现在就

No questions asked. Again, check it out. Magicspoon.com/tim. That's magicspoon.com/tim. Take a

去看看。

look.

最佳最低限度。在这个高度，我可以全速跑半英里，然后我的手就开始发抖。

Optimal minimal. At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking.

我能回答你的私人问题吗？现在我只看得到自己的屁股。

Can I answer your personal question? Now I just see my butt

完成了。脱离那个是什么感觉

being done. What it like to be out of the

我是个生化人，活在金属内骨骼上的这堆破烂里。我，他，铁锈秀。

I'm a cybernetic organism, living this shit over metal endoskeleton. Me, him, Ferrous show.

马修，欢迎来到节目。

Matthew, welcome to the show.

很高兴来到这里，蒂姆。您最近怎么样，先生？

Good to be here, Tim. How are you, sir?

我很好，而且面前堆满了想讨论的笔记，哪怕只能涉及一小部分。我想我们可以先为那些熟悉你作品但不了解你个人经历的观众铺垫些背景。描绘下你的父母吧。为这次对话做准备时，我做了些功课，看到你的一句引述——当然欢迎核实——这是《卫报》的记载：‘我对父亲最深刻的画面是他在机场用投币电话抽烟，永远在推销。’

I'm doing very well, and I have just an embarrassment of riches in front of me in terms of notes that I would love to to take some stab at covering even a portion of, and I thought we could begin with a little backstory for those people who know your work, perhaps not your personal story. Let's paint a picture of your parents. Now I was in preparation for this conversation doing some homework, and I came across a quote of yours. Feel free to fact check this, of course. This is from The Guardian, but it says, one of the great images I have of my father is on the phone with a cigarette at the airport, on the payphone, always peddling.

没错。他推销什么？管道。具体是什么管道？这对不了解的观众意味着什么？

Yes. What was he peddling? Pipe. And how pipe. What is what is that for those who don't know?

管道和接头。我们家做石油生意，钻井显然需要管道，而接头用来连接管道钻探石油。所以父亲做管道接头生意，他称之为‘蹬管道’（pedaling pipe），注意不是pedalling（双写L），就是pedaling pipe。

Pipe and coupling. So even we were in the oil business and to drill, obviously pipe and the couplings are what connect the pipe to drill for oil. So dad was in the pipe and coupling business. And he was he would call it pedaling pipe. Pedaling pipe.

他每天八点到六点打电话推销，然后上路亲自拜访客户卖管道。

No G on the end. Pedaling. Pedaling pipe. And that's what he did on the phone, eight to six. And then he'd hit the road and go make personal appearances trying to sell pipe.

他最初是一名卡车司机，后来在乌瓦尔德经营了一家德士古加油站。我们在石油繁荣时期搬到了德克萨斯州的朗维尤。到朗维尤不到六个月，父亲手下就有了大约26名员工。可见当时的石油繁荣有多盛。后来大概在82年左右，生意垮了，他就那样勉强维持着。

He started off as a truck driver, then owned a Texaco station down in Uvalde. We moved to Longview, Texas in the oil boom. And within, like, six months after being in Longview, dad had, like, 26 employees under him. That's how big of an oil boom it was. And then obviously, that business fell through, I think, around 'eighty two, and he kind of held on from there.

他一直是个小商贩。

He was always a peddler.

永远的小贩。

Always peddler.

他的口头禅很棒。他总是说但从未实现过。他从未破产，对他来说不破产是一种荣誉，但石油繁荣破灭后，他总是念叨：'孩子们，只要我能撞上大运，只要我能撞上大运'。但他始终没撞上那个大运。不过如果如果他能

His line was great. He was always be and he never did it. He never went bankrupt, and that was a piece of honor for him not to go bankrupt, but he was always after the oil boom sort of busted, he was always like, boys, if I could just hit a lick, if I could just hit a lick. And he never did hit that lick. But if if he

撞上大运会怎样？这是指

had hit a lick? Is that

大买卖吗？'撞大运'是指拿到大客户。比如，吉姆·麦康纳先生对我说：'我要从你这订购所有管道，我们要钻探20万英尺，等等等等'。这就是个大单子。

a a big sale? A lick is a big account. A lick is, okay, mister Jim Mcconaughey. I want all my pipe from you, and we're gonna drill 200,000 feet, blah blah blah blah. So it's a huge account.

天啊，我能给这个大客户供应所有管道。那就是'撞大运'了。但他始终差那么一点。

Oh my gosh. I'm gonna supply all the pipe to this one large account. That would be a lick. He never quite hit it.

现在我们暂时跳到关于母亲的另一个话题。我想聊聊——或者描述一下貂油。能否请你告诉我们貂油是如何进入你生活的？

So we're gonna jump to the other track with mom for a second here. And I'd like to have conversation about or description maybe of mink oil. I would like to could you could you tell us how how mink oil entered your life, please?

好。如果没有貂油，我现在就不会在这里和你对话了。那时候我大概...14、15岁吧，九年级，青春期。

Yeah. I would not be here talking to you right now if it wasn't for the oil of mink. Yeah. I think it was about how old was I? 14, 15 years old, ninth grade, adolescents.

我母亲开始推销。又来了，我们全家都在推销东西。我妈开始挨家挨户推销这款貂油产品。'看好了，把这个貂油涂在脸上，它能排出你所有的杂质。'

My mom starts pedaling. Again, pedaling my whole family was pedaling something. My mom starts pedaling this oil of mink product, door to door sales. Look here. You you you put this mink oil on your face, and it brings out all the impurities that you have.

等那些杂质全部排出来后，你的皮肤就会变得清澈透亮，这辈子都如此。这差不多就是销售话术对吧？那时我15岁，和所有同龄人一样长了几颗痘痘。

And once those impurities all come out, you then have clear, glowing skin for the rest of your life. That was sort of the sales pitch. Right? Well, I'm 15. I got a few pimples as any 15 year old does.

有天晚上我妈说，你应该试试这款貂油。我说好啊，天，你真让我用这个？当然。

And one night, my mom goes, well, you should choose this oil of mink. I'm like, great. Jeez. Are you gonna let me do that? Sure.

于是我开始每晚睡前往脸上抹貂油。大约一周后醒来，发现痘痘比之前更多了。我照镜子找妈妈理论，她竟说：这正是它该有的效果，正在排出所有杂质，继续用。

So I start putting this oil of mink on my face every night before I go to bed. And after about a week, I wake up, and I've got more pimples than I had a week before. And I check-in the mirror, I go to mom, I hit the storm. She goes, Oh, that's exactly what it's supposed to do, pull out all the impurities. Keep doing it.

要坚持。好吧，我就虔诚地继续涂抹。两周后发现问题严重了——整张脸布满痘痘，情况相当糟糕。

Stick with it. Sure. And so I just religiously keep putting it on. Well, after two weeks, now I seem to be running into a problem here. I've got a whole face full of pimples, and it's getting pretty severe.

我又去找妈妈，她说：哇哦，你体内的杂质比我预想的多，坚持用，杂质还在往外排呢。

And I go back to mom. She's like, oh, wow. Well, you've just got more impurities than I thought you'd have. Just keep keep doing it. We're gonna keep bringing out those impurities.

我继续使用。三周后爆发了严重痤疮，我非常担心，而妈妈依然坚持说：哇，别停，杂质快排完了。

I keep it up. Three weeks go by, and now I've got full blown acne. And I'm really concerned. And my mom's just staying on with it going, wow. No.

我偷偷自己跑去看皮肤科医生——这可不是我妈的建议，是我擅自去的。

Stick with it. All the impurities are coming out. Well, I sneak off to a dermatologist on my own. And this was not my mom's recommendation. I sneak out there on my own.

带着那瓶貂油，我对医生说：能看看我的脸吗？你往脸上抹什么？我出示瓶子，他读了标签后...

And I take a bottle of this Minko with me. And I go I go, doc, can you look at my face? This is what are you putting on your face? And I show him this body. He's he reads the label.

他连连惊呼：不不不不不

He's like, oh, no. No. No. No. No.

绝对不行！这适合40岁左右的人用，不该给油脂分泌旺盛的青少年，它堵塞了你的毛孔，让皮肤无法呼吸。

No. No. This is for someone that's, like, 40 year old or not a teenage child who's got oily pores. Anyway, this is blocking your pores. Your pores can't breathe.

你离脸上因痤疮被冰锥扎洞只剩十天了。我们必须让你停用这个。好吧。因为我们还得让你服用一种叫异维A酸的药。那可是要吃一整年的药。

You are ten days away from having ice pick holes in your face from the acne. We've got to get you off of this. Okay. Because we also have to get you on this stuff called Accutane. It's a year's worth of medicine.

它会让你皮肤干燥。会有并发症，但总比你即将面临的演艺事业强。于是砰的一声。我开始吃异维A酸，停用貂油。那时我父亲——就像我说的，总在琢磨怎么捞一笔——看着我说：天啊，小子。

It will dry you up. There will have its complications, but it'll be better than than the acting that you're gonna have. So boom. I get on the Accutane, off the oil of mink. And around that time, my dad, who was always, as I said, peddling and looking how to hit a lick, looks at me and says, damn, boy.

我觉得我们可以起诉这家公司。我是说，你是个帅小伙。看看你，肌肉发达。于是他带我去见他的律师。

I I think we got a lawsuit against this company. Damn well, mean, I mean, you're you're a good looking son. I mean, look at you. You're all swole up. So he he takes me to see his lawyer.

我记得他律师叫杰里·哈里斯。我和父亲坐在他的律师杰里·哈里斯对面，觉得胜券在握。他问我：这些痘痘痤疮是不是打击了你的自信？我说：是的，先生。

I remember his lawyer. His name is Jerry Harris. So I'm sitting down with my dad and his lawyer, Jerry Harris, and we think we got a case. And he asked me like, you know, hey, is your confidence lower, you know, with these pimples you've got, this acne? I'm like, well, yes, sir.

他接着问：和女孩们相处还顺利吗？我答：完全不顺利。他眼睛一亮。虽然我才15岁，但看得出他在构建案情。他说：精神痛苦。

I mean, he goes, are you doing as good with the girls? And I said, no, sir, not at all. And he, his eyes light up. And I can tell that even at my age of 15, that he he's building his case. And he goes, emotional distress.

你承受着精神痛苦。我看着他说：当然。对，精神痛苦。

You were under emotion. You are under emotional distress. And I look at him and I'm like, sure. Yeah. Emotional distress.

杰里拍桌大喊：老天！我们能索赔3万5到5万美元。精神痛苦赔偿大有可为啊吉姆。我父亲激动得直呼：太棒了。

And Jerry's slapped at the table. Gosh, dog. We can get 35 to $50,000 off this. Emotional distress will go a long way, Jim. And my dad's like, hot damn.

就这样。没错。五万美元。好样的儿子。父亲为这笔交易兴奋不已。

That's it. That's right. $50,000. That's way to go, son. And so dad's getting all excited about this deal.

我们要靠小儿子的精神痛苦赚五万了。与此同时我在服用异维A酸。皮肤要一年才能痊愈，期间会头皮屑如雪，膝盖疼痛，嘴角开裂，但总比痤疮强。这药开始清除我脸上的痘痘。但官司嘛，你知道的，总是拖拖拉拉。

We're gonna make $50,000 off of my emotional distress, his youngest son. So anyway, meanwhile, I'm on Accutane. And everything takes a year to get clear up and you get scaly dandruff and your knees hurt and you get slits in your mouth and everything else, but much better than this acne. And this the accutane starts clearing this acne up on my face. Well, as lawsuits go, you know, they they drag on a while.

两年后我回到杰里·哈里森律师事务所，坐在被告律师对面。这时我的痤疮已经好了。对方律师开场就说：天啊，当时一定很痛苦吧？我心想：这简直是送分题。

So come two years later, I'm back in Jerry Harrison Law Office sitting across the table from the from the defense attorney. And now my acne's cleared up. Okay? And this lawyer sits there and starts off the conversation with me and he goes, oh my gosh, must have been so emotionally distressful. And I'm like, he's lobbing me a softball here.

我肯定能一鸣惊人。没错。是的，先生。那段日子情绪压力极大。而他就说，我打赌你那会儿自信心跌到谷底了。

I'm gonna knock this out of the park. Yeah. Yes, sir. It was highly emotionally stressful. And he's like, I bet your confidence was down.

我当时心想，他又来这套。这家伙在搞什么？真是个糟糕的律师。他故意给我设局，就等着我再次漂亮反击。我直接回应，没错。

I was like, he did it again. What's this guy doing? He's a horrible lawyer. He's teeing me up and just knock it out of park again. I was like, yes.

那段日子精神折磨太严重了。我自信心低迷，追女孩也不顺利。先生，说真的，那真是糟透了。可我当时坐在那儿还觉得这案子我们胜券在握。

It was so emotionally distressful. My confidence was low. Wasn't doing well with the girls. I mean, man, it was bad stuff, sir. And I'm sitting there thinking we've got this case.

这时候那家伙——好家伙——他脸上挂着柴郡猫式的笑容，从办公桌底下抽出本绿色年鉴。里面夹着书签页，他推到我跟前翻开，特意转到做了标记的那页，指着张照片。这是1988年朗维尤高中的年鉴，当时我正值毕业班。别忘了这桩诉讼从我高二时就开始了。他指着毕业照问，这是谁？

Well, this dog well, so boy gets his Cheshire grin on his face, reaches under the desk and pulls out this green yearbook. And it's got a page marked on it and he pushes it open in front me, turns it around and opens it to a specific that specific earmarked page and points to a picture. Now this was the 1988 year book for Longview High School, which now I was a senior. And mind you, this lawsuit started back when I was a sophomore. In this picture of my senior year, he points to it and said, who's that?

照片上是卡米萨·斯普林斯，真是位美丽的姑娘，18岁的她胸前斜披着"最美小姐"绶带。而与她挽臂并肩站着的，是位名叫马修·麦康纳的年轻男子，胸前绶带写着"最帅先生"。一看到这个，我眯起眼睛心想：完了，这案子我们输定了。我抬头看向他。

And there's a picture of Camissa Springs, really beautiful lady, girl, 18 year old with a sash across her chest that says most beautiful. Well, arm in arm with her and next to her is a young man named Matthew McConaughey with a sash across his chest that says, most handsome. As soon as I see that, I squint my eyes. I'm like, oh, we just lost the case. I look up at him.

那男孩笑了，他接着说，情绪如此痛苦。我们当时就知道，我们已经输掉了这场官司。一切都结束了。我记得我父亲为此懊悔了好几个月。天啊，该死的，小子。

The boy smiles, and he goes, so emotionally distressful. And we knew right then, we had lost the case. And it was over. And I remember my dad hemming hog for for months. Gosh, damn me, boy.

我是说，我们本来能赢5万美元，结果你却跑去赢得了最英俊奖。你把整个计划都搞砸了，伙计。唉，貂油啊。还有还有，麦康纳家那些不断打官司却从未真正赢过的人。那是我父亲试图翻身的另一种方式。

I mean, we were gonna win $50,000, and you gotta go off and win most handsome. You screwed up the whole deal, man. Well, oil of mink. And and and the McConaughey's who chased litigations but never quite win them. That was another way of my dad trying to hit a lick.

而我却因为赢得最英俊奖把一切都搞砸了。

And, I screwed it up by winning most handsome.

这在你们家是真的吗？我读到过这个。当然，不能尽信你所读的内容。两件事。第一，你父母离婚两次，结婚三次，所以他们最终又复合了一次，然后又分开了。

Was it true in your family? I I read this. Of course, you can't believe everything that you read. Two things. Number one, that your parents were divorced twice, married three times, so they ended up getting up one more time, then they got knocked down.

是的，是真的。第二，说'我做不到'是被禁止或强烈不建议的。

Yeah. True. Number two, that saying I can't was forbidden or highly advised against.

非常有用。非常、非常、非常重要。我记得脏话。你可以说‘该死’、‘他妈的’甚至偶尔冒用上帝之名可能侥幸逃脱惩罚，但那真的在危险边缘。但我们真正因此受罚或被禁止的词汇是‘恨’和‘不能’。

Very helpful. Heavily, heavily, heavily. I remember cuss words. You could say shit and fuck and damn and even occasionally maybe get away with the Lord's name in vain, but you weren't really that was on the line. But the real words that we got, like, either punished for or were forbidden, were hate and can't.

我记得我父亲，大约12岁的一个周六早晨，我的周末家务是割草坪、除杂草、擦亮他的皮鞋、清扫门廊和清理角落的蜘蛛网。为了能拥有周六下午的玩耍时间，我一大早就起床干活。当我试图启动那台手推式割草机时，它怎么也发动不起来。拉了一次又一次，就是打不着火。

And I remember my dad, I remember one Saturday morning when I was about 12, my Saturday morning chores were, you know, mow the lawn, weed eed, shine his shoes, and sweep the porches and get the cobwebs out of corners. Well, I'd get up very early on a Saturday morning to do that so I could have my Saturday afternoon to play. And I went out to try and start our push lawnmower, and it wouldn't start. Pull again, wouldn't start. Pull again, wouldn't start.

检查油箱。嗯，有油啊。到底怎么回事？真见鬼。

Check the gas. Yeah. It's got gas. What the heck is going on? Damn it.

它就是启动不了。我记得跑进屋对父亲说：‘爸，我没办法启动割草机。’他缓缓转头看向我，我看到他的后槽牙咬合在一起开始磨牙。他说：‘你什么？’那一刻我就明白不该重复那个词了。

It won't start. And I remember going into my dad inside and I go, dad, the I can't get the lawnmower started. And he kinda slowly turned his head to me and I saw his molars meet and kind of start to grit his teeth. And he goes, you what? And I knew enough right then to not say the word again.

我结结巴巴地说：‘我...我...’没等我说完他就站起来。他沉默地跟着我从卧室穿过厨房，经过车库，绕到后院放割草机的棚屋。他跪下来检查油箱等等，最终发现输油管脱落导致燃油无法输送。重新接好后，拉几下就启动了。

And I said, I I I I And he got up and I didn't finish my sentence. He slowly walked with me out of his bedroom through the kitchen, through the garage, around the back to the shed where this lawnmower was that I was not getting started. He, without saying a word, he knelt down, looked at it, checked the gas, da da da. Anyway, he found the little tube there where the gas was not transferring and it had been disconnected. So they so he reconnected that, pulled a few times, and it started.

在那台重新轰鸣的割草机旁，他双手搭在我肩上——这是自我说‘没办法启动’后他第一次触碰我——严肃地说：‘明白吗儿子？你只是遇到点麻烦。’这句话让我醍醐灌顶。

And there, over a new now running push lawnmower, he looked at me, put his hands on my shoulders. And for the first time since I said I I can't get it started, he put his hands on my shoulders, looked at me, and very sternly said it. He goes, you see, son? You were just having trouble from this lawnmower. And boom.

从那天起这个教训就刻在我心里：即使独自无法完成某事，你仍可以寻求帮助。所以这仅仅是‘遇到麻烦’，而非‘无能为力’。直到今天，如果我不小心说出那些禁词，还会下意识环顾四周，仿佛会有惩罚降临。

You know? And I remember from that day, I was that lesson was like, oh, even if you're unable to do something on your own, you can still go seek help or get assistance. So you're still only having trouble even if you on your own cannot do so. That was a saying those words, still to this day, if I let them slip, I kinda have to look over my shoulder like, uh-oh. Is that gonna get me?

影响的形式多种多样。我想请教一个与父母兄弟无关的——奥格·曼狄诺的《世界上最伟大的推销员》，听说这本书对你影响深远。

So there are many different forms of influences. I'd like to ask you about one that is not your parents. It's not your siblings. It's a book that I've read you came across that had an impact in your life, and that is The Greatest Salesman in the World by Augmentino. Yep.

能否向听众解释下这本书为何具有影响力？或者说它带来了什么影响？

Could you explain for people listening why that book was impactful or what impact it had on Yeah.

我向来不爱阅读，成长过程中读书不多，甚至在学校被要求‘必须读这本书’时会产生逆反心理——被强制阅读让我觉得那不是自主选择，也无法保持主观判断。况且我本就不喜欢被指挥。但这本书不同，我总说不是我找到了它，而是它找到了我，接下来我会说明缘由。

So I've never been a big reader, And growing up, didn't read much and never really liked, even in school, being told, Hey, you gotta read this book. You gotta read this. Just the fact of being told I had to read something in school or by someone else sort of made it feel like it wasn't mine and I was not gonna have a subjective view of it. Plus, I just don't really like being told what to do. But this came to me, this book, and I always say this, I didn't find it, it found me, and I'll tell you how and why.

那是在我大二升大三的暑假，当时就读于德州大学奥斯汀分校。那时，我一直按部就班地准备成为律师。我立志要当一名辩护律师，你懂的，为家族争取石油资源赚大钱。明白我的意思吗？

It was between my sophomore and junior year in college at University of Texas at Austin. Now, at this point, I was always on the track to become a lawyer. I was going to become that defense attorney. I was going to become that defense attorney, you know, and get us some oil and make money. You know what mean?

为家族搞到石油赚大钱。我是个出色的辩论者，总能在争论中占据上风。这种天赋从家庭内部就开始显现，家人们常感叹说天啊。

Get the family some oil and make money. I was a good invader. I I took good stances. It started off in the family. They're like, jeez.

老兄，我能在餐桌上辩得全家人哑口无言。他们总会说：见鬼，你小子必须去当律师。

Oh, man. You know, I would take the table and win arguments with the family. And they'd be like, god. Damn it. You gotta become a lawyer.

你必须成为家庭律师。这原本是我的人生规划。但大二升大三时——正是所有通识教育学分需要确定专业方向的关键阶段，否则这些学分就会浪费——你懂我意思吧？没错。

You gotta become a family lawyer. So that was always the plan. But between my sophomore and junior year in college, which is about the time when all those general liberal arts credits that you're getting need to have start having some focus, or you're gonna lose them. You know what I mean? Right.

我开始因律师这个职业规划而失眠。我盘算着：不确定这是否真是我想走的路。毕业后去法学院，

So I'm start not sleeping well with the idea of becoming a lawyer. I'm doing the math. I'm like, I'm not sure it's what I wanna do. I get out of here. Go to law school.

然后毕业，也许从实习生做起。真正事业有起色恐怕要到三十多岁。我就想：难道要把整个二十多岁都耗在求学上吗？其实那时我已开始大量写作，

Then I get out. Then I start maybe get an intern. I'm really not gonna be rolling in my vocation until I'm in my thirties. And I was like, do I want I don't really wanna spend my twenties just learning or I was in my twenties just in school. Now I had been writing a lot.

日记里写满了短篇故事，其中不少收录在这本《绿灯》里。但直到我好友罗伯·宾德勒（当时就读纽约大学电影学院）——我曾给他看过这些故事——某晚在电话里说：'你该考虑台前幕后工作，你很会讲故事，自带角色魅力，文笔也很好'

I've been keeping a lot of short stories in my diaries and a lot of them which are in this in this book, Green Lights. But I didn't have the confidence to think that maybe I wanted to get in the storytelling business until a good friend of mine, Rob Bindler, who I think at the time was NYU film school, who I'd been sharing some of these short stories with, One night on the phone goes, hey, you should think about getting in front or behind the camera. You tell great stories. You got good character yourself. You're a good writer.

试试看吧。而我总是抗拒：不不不，那太前卫了，太欧式了，太艺术范儿了。

Try this out. And I was always like, oh, no, no, no. Don't I mean, that's that's like too avant garde. It's too European. It's too the artsy.

我我做不到的。但他给了我认真考虑这行的信心。大二期末考期间，我回到兄弟会德尔特楼。我是个学霸，

I I can't do that. But he gave me the confidence to really consider it. Now I go to my fraternity house, the Dell House, into that sophomore year for sophomore exams. I'm a studier. All right?

当时GPA3.82，热衷拿A。任何学习时间我都会争分夺秒利用，总觉得复习时间不够。那天在德尔特楼后的小别墅——我兄弟的住处吃完午餐，坐在沙发上，距离心理学期考还有三小时，我翻开课本开始复习。

I'm making I got a 3.82 GPA. I'm I I I like making my As. And any amount of time I've got to study, I will use it every single minute. There's never enough time for me to study. I go to the Delft house and right behind it in a little bungalow is one of my Delft brothers and I eat lunch and I sit on his couch and I've got three hours before my exam and I open up my books, studying for my psychology exam.

不知为何，这是我人生中第一次闭上眼，内心默念马修·麦康纳的台词激励自己：'你能行的，不用再复习了'。这是我头一回这么做，距离考试还剩三小时。

For whatever reason, for the first time in my life, I shut them and I go McConaughey to myself. I go, you got this. You don't need to study anymore. First time I'd done that. I got three hours to go.

电视正开着。我热爱体育，ESPN频道。我会看板球比赛、世界大力士竞赛，甚至两只蚱蜢赛跑都看得津津有味。

I've been put on the TV. I love sports. ESPN. I'll watch cricket, the strongest man competition. I'll watch, you know, two grasshoppers race.

但这次却莫名提不起兴趣。我关掉电视，瞥见左侧杂志堆——有《体育画报》，几本《花花公子》，心想：老天，我明明喜欢运动啊。

For whatever reason, I just I'm not interested. I turn off the TV. I look over to my left. There's a stack of magazines. There's Sports Illustrated, some Playboys, and I'm like, jeez, I like sports.

也爱看《花花公子》里的裸女。那就翻翻吧。我抓起一本快速翻阅，却莫名烦躁起来，突然就没了兴致。坐在那儿自问：好吧，现在我该干什么？

I like checking out naked ladies in the Playboy. Let's check that out. I pick up a Playboy, flip their thumb through that, half agitated, and all of sudden lose interest in that. And I'm sitting there going, okay. What am I supposed to do here?

还有两个半到三小时要打发。我开始层层翻找那堆《花花公子》《体育画报》等杂志。在沙发左侧杂志堆第七层，突然看见一本白色平装书，烫着华丽红色草书标题——《世界上最伟大的推销员》。记得当时伸手去拿时还自言自语：'这是谁写的？' 拿起书便开始阅读。

I got two and a half, about three hours to kill. Well, I start peeling back those magazines, Playboys and Sports Illustrated and everything else. And about seven deep in that stack of magazines to the left of the couch where I was sitting, I see this white paperback with this beautiful red cursive writing on it and it says the greatest salesman in the world. And I remember reaching for it and aloud to myself saying, who is that? And I pick up the book And I start reading it.

重申一次，我不常读书，但这本书却让我读得入迷。不知不觉间，我已读完整个序章，来到第一卷轴开头：'我将养成良好习惯，成为习惯的奴隶'。这本书刚带我经历了一段旅程，指示我要读完十个卷轴，每个卷轴每天诵读三遍，持续三十天才能进入下一卷。

Again, I'm not I'm not a reader, but I start reading this book. And all of a sudden, I lose track of time, and I've gotten past the whole prologue to the beginning of this first scroll in this book, which is I will form good habits and become their slave. Now what this book had just told me, it had just taken me on a journey and said, you will read each scroll. There's 10 scrolls in this book. Each scroll three times a day for thirty days until you move on to the next scroll.

相当于要读十个月。当我读到第一卷轴时才明白：所谓'世界上最伟大的推销员'，就是即将读完这本书的人。我顿时醒悟：'哦，那就是我！他在对我说话！'

So it's basically a ten month read. And I had gotten to the first scroll and had been now understood. I now understood that the greatest salesman in the world was whoever's gonna read that book. So I was like, oh, that's me. He's talking to me.

猛然抬头——糟了！离考试只剩十五分钟！得赶紧走了对吧？

Well, bam. I look up. Oh, my exam's in fifteen minutes. I gotta go. Right?

冲出门参加心理学考试。我飞速答完试卷，根本不在乎是否会挂科。因为书中有个声音告诉我：'不，此刻你最该专注的是这本书。'

Head out. Go to my exam, my psychology exam. I ripped through that exam. I didn't care if I failed it. Something in this book had told me, no, this book is what you need to be into right now.

这本书将赋予你实现目标的信心。我火速答完心理学考卷，当即决定：'我要上电影学院！晚上就打电话告诉父亲——我不读法学院了，现在我有信心了！'

This book is gonna give you confidence to go do what you need to do. I ripped through that psychology exam and immediately go, I'm going to film school. I'm calling dad at night. I'm not gonna go to law school anymore. I've got the confidence.

这本书找到了我。这是我人生中的一个重要时刻。我不知道如何或为什么，但确实如此。我要鼓起勇气打电话给我爸爸然后出发。那天晚上，我记得我在想这件事。

This book found me. This is a seminal moment in my life. I don't know how or why, but it is. And I'm gonna get the courage to call my dad and go. And that night, I remember thinking about it.

我要在晚上7:30给我爸爸打电话。那时他已经坐下，可能已经喝了第一杯鸡尾酒，吃过晚饭，心情会很好，我可以对他说，爸爸，我想去上电影学院。于是我在7:36PM打给他。嘿，爸爸。

I'm gonna call my dad at 07:30. He'll have sat down, maybe had his first cocktail, already had dinner, and he'll be in a good mood for me to say, you know, dad, I wanna go to film school, I think. Well, I call him. 07:36PM. Hey, dad.

嘿。怎么了，儿子？听着。我...我其实不太...我当时很紧张。我说，我不想去法学院了。

Hey. What's up, son? Listen. I I don't really and I was nervous. And I said, I don't think I wanna go to law school anymore.

我想去电影学院。这句话对我来说很难说出口，因为我以为他会说，你想干什么，小子？搞什么鬼？我说，爸爸，我想去电影学院。电话那头沉默了大约五秒钟。

I wanna go to film school. That was hard for me to say because I thought he was gonna go, you wanna do what, boy? What the hell? Said, dad, I wanna go to film school. It was a long pause on the phone about five seconds.

然后他说，你确定这是你想做的吗，儿子？我说，是的，爸爸。又是五秒钟的沉默。然后他说了三个我听过的最棒的字：别半吊子。我记得我当时想，别半吊子。

And he says, you sure that's what you wanna do, son? And I said, yes, sir. There's another five second pause. And then he said, three of the greatest words I've ever been told, don't half ass it. I remember going, don't half ass it.

我记得我的眼睛一下子就亮了。我当时想，天啊，我爸爸不仅同意了，他还给了我一个责任。他给了我自由。他给我的不仅仅是特权。他就像给我放飞了一样，最后还说，我不仅同意并说可以，儿子。

And I remember my eyes just, I lit up. And I was like, oh my gosh, one, my dad not only approved, he gave me a responsibility. He gave me freedom. He gave me more than a privilege. He like sent me a flight and ending it with like, not only do I agree and say that's okay, son.

我是说，如果你要做，就一定要做好，别半吊子。第二天我就去改了课程表。然后我的GPA让我进了电影学院，因为我有3.82的绩点。我没有任何艺术作品可以展示。我开始在镜头后面工作，最后也像现在这样站在镜头前。

I'm saying if you're gonna do it, you better damn well go do it well and don't half ass it. And I went down the next day, changed my course schedule. Then my GPA got me into film school because I had a 3.82. I didn't have any sort of art to show them. And I started off behind the camera and then ended up as I am now in front of the camera as well.

但那本书，那一天，那本书找到了我，让我觉得那是我的秘密，它来到我身边，没有人告诉我，嘿，你需要读这本书。这对你有好处。嘿，你应该读这个。这是你的学校作业，甚至是一个推荐。

But that book, that day, that book finding me and me feeling like it was my secret, and it came to me, and no one told me, here, you need to read this book. It'll be good for you. Hey. You're supposed to read this. This is your for school or even a recommendation.

它不是被推荐的，它找到了我。我按照书上的指示，每天早上、中午和晚上都读它。我已经这样读了三次。但第一次，我没有错过任何一次阅读。我的意思是，有很多个周六，我早上出门，随性而行，突然就到了晚上10点，离家还有一个半小时的路程，而书还在家里。

It was not rec it found me. And I read that book every I did exactly what it said, morning, noon, and night. And I read it I've read it three times now that way. But the first time, I didn't miss one reading of that. I mean, and I had many a day where I went out in the morning on a Saturday, and my day of whimsy took me to a place where all of a sudden it was 10:00 at night, and I was like an hour and a half from my house, and the book was back at my house.

我当时可能在玩，参加派对，然后突然想起来，哦，天哪。我会停下来，吃点东西，喝点咖啡，喝很多水，等到凌晨1:30左右可以开车的时候，开车回家拿那本书，要么读完后在床上睡觉，要么带着书回到我玩的地方继续读。连续十个月，我没有错过任何一次阅读。那本书是我一生中读过的最有影响力的文学和激励作品。

And I'd be, like, hanging out, partying, and going like, oh, jeez. And I would stop, eat something, get some coffee, drink a bunch of water, wait till whatever 01:30 in the morning when I was telling to drive, and I would drive back to my place, grab that book, and either read it and go to sleep in my bed or drive back to where I was hanging out with the book and read it. I didn't miss one single read for ten straight months. And that book is the most instrumental piece of literature and motivation I've ever read for me in my life.

如今你创作了《绿灯》这本书，正如你所描述的，它并非传统回忆录或建议手册，而是一本基于我人生冒险的行动指南。我想跳到书中某个特定部分，它也算某种剪贴簿。尽管以二维书籍形式呈现，却极具多媒体特色。我想问你关于一张便条的事，这将自然过渡到写作实践的话题——毕竟你坚持写日记已有约三十五到四十年了，我相信。

And now you've produced Green Lights, this book, which, as as you've described it, is not a traditional memoir or an advice book, but rather a playbook based on adventures in my life. And I wanna hop to a particular portion of this book, which is also a scrapbook of sorts. It's very multimedia in that respect, even though it's in two d and book format. I want to ask you about a note, and this will segue into the practice of writing since you've kept a diary for somewhere between thirty five, forty years at this point, I believe.

是的。

Yes.

在《绿灯》接近结尾处有张1992年9月1日的便条。对。上面写着'人生十大目标'。这让我震撼不已。

There's a note towards the end of green lights from 09/01/1992. Yeah. So 10 goals in life. This blew my mind.

九二年。

Nine two.

我想先读完这十条，然后请你带我们回到你写下这些目标时的人生阶段。之后我会重点讨论其中几条，但让我先完整朗读：1992年写下的'人生十大目标'——其一，成为父亲；

So I wanna read these 10, and then I want you to kinda place us in your life when you wrote these 10. And then I I wanna zoom in on a few of them, but let me just read these ten first. So 10 goals in life. This is in 1992. One, become a father.

其二，找到并留住我的真命天女；其三，保持与上帝的联结；其四，追逐最好的自己；其五，做个利己的功利主义者（这将是第一个追问点）；

Two, find and keep the woman for me. Three, keep my relationship with God. Four, chase my best self. Five, be an egotistical utilitarian. That's gonna be my first follow-up question.

其六，承担更多风险；其七，亲近母亲和家人；其八，赢得奥斯卡最佳男主角；其九，回首往事时能享受风景；其十，继续活着。

Six, take more risks. Seven, stay close to mom and family. Eight, win an Oscar for best actor. Nine, look back and enjoy the view. 10, just keep living.

没错。

Yeah.

你是在何时何地写下这十大目标的？

Where were you and when were you when you wrote these 10 goals?

当时我在Delta Tall Delta兄弟会的上铺。室友应该是蒙蒂·威尔斯，这位来自阿拉巴马州蒙哥马利市的朋友至今仍有联系。我蜷在上铺，大概晚上九点半左右，正准备安睡过夜，就突然开始写这些目标。

I was in a top bunk in the Delta Tall Delta House. I believe my roommate was Monty Wills, whom I'm still friends with today from Montgomery, Alabama. I was in the top bunk. I think I just probably, it end was of the night, was about 09:30, I was just getting nestling in for a good night's sleep. So I just started.

具体日期是？93年的哪个月份和哪一天？

What was the date? '93 what was the month and the the month and the day?

那是1993年9月1日。

That was September first nineteen ninety September 1.

好的。对。我当时刚拍完《年少轻狂》。

Okay. Yeah. So I had just done I had just finished Dazed Confused.

没错。对。杀青后刚两天。

That's right. Yeah. Was two day two days after finishing.

是啊。我刚拍完。那原本只是个暑期消遣的活儿，剧本里只有三句台词。我能被选中是因为恰好在对的时间去了对的酒吧，遇到对的人，试镜后理查德·林克莱特说‘来吧’，就开始给我加戏。三句台词变成了三周的工作。我爱死这感觉了。

Yeah. I just finished it. A job, a summer hobby, a thing that there were three lines written in a script that I got cast in because I went to the right bar at the right time, met the right guy, read for it, Richard Linkletter said, come on, and started throwing me in scenes. So three lines turned into three weeks work. I loved it.

每天能拿320美元。人们都说我演得好。我到处跑着问：这真的合法吗？太有意思了。然后我拍完了。

It was getting paid $320 a day. People were telling me I was good at it. And I was running around going like, is this legal? It's so fun. And I finish it.

我父亲刚去世两周左右。对，那年8月17日。所以我刚结束这个从爱好变成职业的工作。

My father had just passed away, like two weeks earlier. Yeah. August 17 of that year. So I just finished a job that was a hobby that now that became a career. I had just finished that.

想想看。算算时间——我之前都没意识到。我刚读完《阿格玛与迪诺》那本书，花了十个月。

Think about it. If you do the math, I didn't think about till now. I just finished that Agma and Dino, ten months of reading that book.

哇哦。

Oh, wow.

父亲刚离世。我正试图理解这对我意味着什么，以及我觉得应该赋予它什么意义。这就是‘继续生活’理念的由来——即使他肉体不在了，也要让他的精神长存，延续他教会我的东西，在我余生中持续激励自己，尽管不能再依靠他本人支持。我记得当时写下那些目标。有趣的是，我们刚开始聊时你说...（记不清你的形容词或副词了），但我在不到一年前的日记里发现了这些。

My father had just passed away. I was just going through what that meant to me and what that what I felt like that should mean to me. And that's where the just keep living comes from, to keep his spirit alive even though he's physically not here, keep things alive that he taught me, to keep me incentivized throughout my life even though I couldn't rely on him personally being here to to back me up with him. And so I remember writing those goals down. And the thing is that when you start off this conversation going, I don't know what your adjective or adverb was about it, but I found that just less than a year ago in my diaries.

而自写下那刻起，我就再没看过或记得自己曾写过它。清单上那个日期，我再也没翻看过。那晚写完就抛之脑后了。至少我以为自己忘记了。是啊。

And I'd never looked at it or remembered that I had written it since the day I did. That date on that list, I never looked at that list again. I wrote it that night and forgot about it. Or at least I thought I forgot about it. Yeah.

显然我并未真正忘记，这才最奇妙。因为在潜意识某处，我显然记得它，因为至今我已实现了那些目标。有些条目具体得让我自己都诧异。比如表演相关这条——赢得奥斯卡最佳男主角。

Obviously, I didn't, and that's the wild part. Because somewhere subconsciously, I obviously did remember it because so far, I've accomplished those goals. And there's some very specific ones on there that I'm like, what? You know? I always thought even the acting part, win an Oscar for best actor.

那时我刚拍完《困惑的日子》，根本不知道自己会成为一名演员。我连将其视为职业的勇气都没有，当时只当是个夏日消遣的爱好罢了。

This is a time I just finished Days of Confused. I didn't know I was gonna end up being an actor. I still thought didn't have the courage to even think I could pursue it as a career. I at that time, I thought it might just be a hobby. I had a hobby for a summer.

但回望时才明白，你确实渴望成为演员，且是顶尖的那种。我能在日记里承认，却不敢向自己坦白。老天，我甚至不敢向梦境承认，却能在日记页面上畅所欲言。这就是当时的我。

But obviously, when I look back, I'm like, oh, you did wanna be. You did wanna be an actor, and you wanted to be a damn good one. So I could admit it on my journal page, but I couldn't admit it to myself. Hell, I couldn't even admit it to my dreams, but I could admit it on my journal pages. So that's where I was.

这三件事正深刻影响着我的人生。其中父亲离世带来的转变最大，而随着《迷幻牛郎》和《最伟大的推销员》杀青，我写下了那份清单。

Those are three big things going on in my life. And I'd say the most you know, the biggest shapeshifter was father moving on. And but that, with finishing Dazed and with finishing The Greatest Salesman, that's when I wrote that.

这三个重大转折点构成的维恩图，堪称人生关键快照。聚焦第五条「做个自负的功利主义者」——你还记得当初为何这样写吗？

That's quite a Venn diagram as far as a snapshot in time goes with those three sort of momentous changes, those transitions. If we zoom in on number five, be an egotistical utilitarian. Yep. Do you recall what you meant when you wrote that?

百分之百记得。次年（可能是大三）我写了篇《约翰·韦恩：自负的功利主义者》的论文。本质是借虚构角色暗喻自己闯荡好莱坞的故事。但「自负的功利主义者」这个概念，至今仍让我拍案叫绝。

100%. I'd written a, I later that next year, maybe it was my junior year, I wrote a a law of paper and essay on John Wayne The Egotistical Utilitarian. And I guess it was me writing a story about a fictional character that I guess was based on me going west to Hollywood. But the egotistical utilitarian. I'm always like, boy, that's it.

这才是真正先知的模样，耶稣正是如此行事的。当我们做出决策时——那些为满足私我的自私选择，竟恰好成为造福最多人的最佳方案（功利主义），当「小我」与「大我」交汇，自私即无私，所需即所求——这才是获得成功、满足与真实人生的核心所在。

That's what the real prophets are. That's what Jesus was up to. Making decisions. That's that's the honey hole of when we are really can succeed or have satisfaction or live life the most truest, where the decisions we make for the I, for ourselves, the selfish decisions are actually what's best for the most amount of people, utilitarian. Are the I where the I meets the we, where the selfish is the selfless, where what I need is what I want.

欲望属于自我，需求关乎功利；渴求自由，却需担当责任。自我（小我）与功利（客观大我）的博弈，正是我那时已开始探索的命题。

And what I want is the ego. What I need is the utilitarian. What I want is freedom. What I need is the responsibility. And the interplay of those things, I as the ego and utilitarian is the objective utilitarian we, that I was already starting to work.

书中贯穿这些主题，因它们本就是我长期秉持的人生观。我顿悟到：当人为己所做的自私选择，同时成为最无私的决定，二者重叠合一时，便是终极人格的体现。这就是我当时的追求与信仰。

And a lot of that these thematics are through the book because because they're inherently how I see life and have for a long time. But I was like, oh, that's the ultimate human, the egotistical utilitarian, where the decision one makes for themselves most selfishly happen to be the most selfless decisions as well at the same time. And where those two overlap and are one, that's the ultimate human. That was the pursuit. That was my belief then.

为何要冒更多风险？我们或许又回到了自我中心的功利主义。为何要冒更多风险？当时你是否觉得自己冒的风险还不够？这是你从父母或他人那里学到的关于风险的观念吗？

And why take more risks? We might come back to egotistical utilitarianism. Why take more risks? Did you feel like at the time you weren't taking enough risks? Was it something you had learned about risks from your parents or other people?

为何要冒更多风险？

Why take more risks?

我想当时我正看到自己冒的风险确实得到了回报。那晚在凯悦酒店顶楼酒吧，冒险下楼向唐·菲利普自我介绍，结果他成了《困惑的日子》的选角导演。四小时后酒吧打烊时他对我说：嘿，你演过戏吗？这个角色可能适合你。那次冒险。

I think I was at that time seeing risk that I'd take really pay off. The risk to in the bar at the top of the Hyatt that night to go down and introduce myself to Don Philip, ended up being the casting director for Days Confused, who four hours later at the end of the night after we got kicked out of the bar says, hey. You ever done any acting? You might be right for this part. Taking that risk.

冒险去试镜那个角色。冒险让理查德·林克莱特说：这场戏没有你不能出现的理由。剧本里没写你，但你觉得奥德森会出现在这里吗？我冒险接话：哦，当然，然后即兴加入戏中表演。这些风险都得到了回报。

The the the risk to go and and read for that part. The risk for Richard Linklater to say, there's nothing you're not supposed to be in this scene. You're not written in this scene, but you think Orderson would be in it? The risk for me to go, oh, yeah, and just hop in the middle of the scene and improvise and play. Those risks were paying off.

我也开始感受到，读那本该死的《布雷迪推销员》所冒的风险。那是我第一本从头到尾读完的书，虽然是本薄平装书——要知道我花了十个月才读完，但对我而言就是冒险。我对自我认知变得非常自信，同时也因父亲离世而天翻地覆。

I was be also beginning to feel, you know, the risk that I took reading that damn book, Brady Salesman. It was the first book I ever read cover to cover, and it's a thin paperback. Mind you, takes ten months to read, but that was a risk for me. And I was feeling very confident with who I was. I was also thrown upside down by my dad moving on.

不知你是否失去过父母，但作为失去父亲的儿子，要说被迫重塑身份？父亲生前就像我的精神支柱，仿佛凌驾于政府和法律之上，现在这个支柱消失了。我没有依靠，没有安全网。突然之间——这记忆非常清晰——我顿悟了。

Now, I don't know, you know, if you've lost a parent, but as a son losing a dad, you wanna talk about forced into identity? You know, my dad being this sort of crutch just because he was alive and above government and above law was now gone. I had no crutch. I had no safety net. All of a sudden, I remember this very clearly, this coming to me.

除了通过生活延续他的精神，我记得他离世后的第一课是——我曾把这句话刻在树上，那晚花了三小时深深雕刻。不是冲动，而是全心投入。这促使我冒更多风险，因为父亲走后我突然明白：那些我敬畏的凡俗事物，包括刚起步的演艺事业和成名的梦想——

And besides to just keep living with keeping his spirit alive, I remember one of the first lessons of him moving on was I was and I carved this in a tree. I remember carving this deeply in a tree for about three hours one night. Less impressed, more involved. And that leans into taking more risk. Because I was like, after dad moved on, I was like, oh, all of these mortal things in life that I have a reverence for, even this point of just finishing acting and maybe having a you know, dreams of fame.

哇，所有我曾仰视的必朽之物，都降到了视线平齐处。同时，所有我曾俯视、嗤之以鼻或认为'那很糟''他们不行'的事物，都升到了视线平齐处。我记得当时想：哦，世界是平的。

Wow. All these things that I revered that were mortal, lowered down to eye level. And at the same time, everything that I noticed that I was condescending or looking down upon or snubbing my nose at or going, oh, that's crap, or oh, they're no good. I was like, they raised up to eye level. And I remember going, oh, the world is flat.

父亲不在了，你最好平视这个世界。当世界变平，我看得更远，更广，更清晰。

Your dad's moved on. You better look the world in the eye. And by seeing the world flat, I saw further. I saw wider. I saw more clearly.

我更有勇气了。对那些曾敬畏的必朽之物，我仍尊重但不再崇拜。这给了我勇气。我也放下了对所谓'低等'事物的傲慢态度。

I had more courage. I lost reverence for the mortal things that I had reverence for. I still respected them, but I lost reverence for them. So that gave me courage. And I lost this sort of snub nosed look at things that I thought were beneath me.

我赋予他们力量，让他们提升到与我平视的高度。突然间，那是我与集体相遇的版本——我曾过度仰望的事物与我所俯视的存在在此交汇，它们就真切地呈现在我眼前。这也正是我开始承担更多风险的方式。

And I empowered them and they raised up to eye level. So all of a sudden, you know, that was a version where the I met the we for me. That was a version where what I looked up to maybe too much met what I was looking down on. And it was right in front of me. And that was how I was also taking more risk.

我消解了许多恐惧。恐惧犹在，但我获得了直面恐惧的勇气。我不再过度敬畏那些本不值得恐惧的凡俗之物，突然意识到：这不就是对名望的盲目崇拜吗？不就是不敢冒险追求所愿的怯懦吗？

I lost a lot of fear. I still had fear, but I gained a lot of courage to go meet my fears. And I didn't give enough credence to things that I probably shouldn't fear or have too much reverence for because they were mortal. And I was like, well, what's that? That's reverence for fame or not taking a chance to go get what you want.

这是凡人的恐惧，马卡内，就像给自己设限。何必如此？当时我甚至将不敢冒险视为罪孽，若未行动就会愧疚，觉得未尽女神当日赋予我的职责。

That's a mortal fear. That's like putting a limit on yourself, Makhane. Why would you do that? I even called it a sin at that time not to take certain risk and would feel guilty if I didn't and feel like I didn't do my due diligence. I didn't I didn't I didn't meet my quote that day in goddess.

稍事感谢本期赞助商，节目马上继续。本集由Wealthfront为您呈现：若错过2008年危机后十大最佳交易日，您将损失50%的收益。别错过市场良机，让长期自动化投资组合持续运作。

Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors, and we'll be right back to the show. This episode is brought to you by Wealthfront. Did you know if you missed 10 of the best performing days after the two thousand eight crisis, you would have missed out on 50%, 50% of your returns. Don't miss out on the best days in the market. Stay invested in a long term automated investment portfolio.

Wealthfront开创了自动化投资先河（亦称机器人顾问），目前管理客户200亿美元资产。它能助您实现投资组合多元化、降低费用与税费。三分钟即可注册，Wealthfront将根据风险偏好为您构建全球ETF组合，并以极低成本管理。其软件日夜监控您的投资，寻找再平衡与税损收割机会，减少投资收益税负。

Wealthfront pioneered the automated investing movement, sometimes referred to as robo advising, and they currently oversee $20,000,000,000 of assets for their clients. Wealthfront can help you diversify your portfolio, minimize fees, and lower your taxes. Takes about three minutes to sign up, and then Wealthfront will build you a globally diversified portfolio of ETFs based on your risk appetite and manage it for you at an incredibly low cost. Wealthfront software constantly monitors your portfolio day in and day out so you don't have to. They look for opportunities to rebalance and tax loss harvest to lower the amount of taxes you pay on your investment gains.

最新推出的Autopilot服务可监测支票账户闲置资金，自动转入储蓄或投资账户。他们考虑周全，智能投资不该如坐过山车，专业事交给专业人士。

Their newest service is called autopilot, and it can monitor any checking account for excess cash to move into savings or an investment account. They've really thought of a ton. They've checked a lot of boxes. Smart investing should not feel like a roller coaster ride. Let the professionals do the work for you.

访问wealthfront.com/tim立即开户，终身免管理费享受首笔5000美元资产托管。立即通过wealthfront.com/tim开启长期自动化投资。您为何开始写日记？数十年来它带给您什么帮助？

Go to wealthfront.com/tim and open a Wealthfront investment account today, and you'll get your first $5,000 managed for free for life. That's wealthfront.com/tim. Wealthfront will automate your investments for the long term, and you can get started today at wealthfront.com/tim. Why did you start using a diary, or what has that helped you to do or given you over your decades of doing it? Yep.

不过本播客中许多常写日记的嘉宾——包括录制前提到的Josh Waidskin——他们的记录方式与动机截然不同。您从日记中获得了什么？

Except I've spoken to many people on this podcast who journal often. They have different forms of journaling, including a name we talked about very briefly before recording, Josh Waidskin. Mhmm. Very different approaches, very different reasons. What is it that you've gotten from having a diary?

或许这种收获会随时间变化。

And maybe it's changed over time.

确实。它不断演变——最初和多数人一样，只在迷茫困境时记录。早期日记满是'为何/何事/何地/何时'的自我诘问。

Yeah. It's it's evolved. I mean, my diary started off like I think most people's diaries do. You write things down when you're not in a good place or you're lost. And you know, early diary entries were the why, what, where, when house, you know?

那些关于‘到底发生了什么？我是谁真的重要吗？’的终极问题。天啊，这破事。我女友跟我分手了，我崩溃了。一切就从那儿开始。

The existential questions of what is going on? Does it matter who am I? Oh my god, this shit. My So girlfriend broke up with me, I lost it. Started off with that.

于是我注意到，自己开始在沮丧或幻灭时记录。后来我想，等等——就像奥格·曼狄诺那本《锲而不舍》说的，你得每天读三遍。我决定效仿马修·麦康纳，坚持每天写日记。但包括我在内，大多数人什么时候最不愿写日记？

So I've noticed that I started writing down when I was in times of distress or disillusion. And then I started to say, well, wait a minute. You gotta just like that Og Mandino book by Hooker by Crook, you read it three times a day. I was like, well, we're gonna write my diary every day, McConaughey. And so when do I when do when do most of us, including me, not write in our diary?

当一切顺遂时。‘噢我全搞定了，才不需要花时间自省写想法呢’。所有事情都是绿灯，棒极了。

When things are going great. Oh, I got it figured out. I'm not gonna need to take time to go be introspective and write down my thoughts. Everything everything's a green light. It's great.

但我说：等等。如果要用日记本——日记最初是用来剖析失败或幻灭的——那分析成功也很明智。让我们剖析顺境时发生了什么。

Well, no. I said, hang on a second. If we're gonna spend our life a diary the original use of a diary is to dissect failure or or or disillusion. I think there's some prudence in let's dissect success. Let's dissect what's going on when things are going well.

让我们在感到一切明朗、充满力量、自信、重要且做真实自己时写日记。于是我开始在顺境时记录，后来发现这样做的好处：当再次陷入低谷时，我可以回溯日记，看看当初感觉势如破竹、掌控全局时写了什么做了什么。我发现了规律——从饮食到交友，从睡眠时长到触动我的世间美好，从待人方式到应对冲突，再到处理成功事务，都存在一致性。

Let's let's write in this diary when you feel like everything's clear and you feel strong and confident, significant, and you feel like yourself. So I started writing in my diary when things are going well and then started to map out certain things about found that what that did is when I would get in a proverbial rut later, I could go back to that diary and look at what was I writing and what was I doing when I felt like everything was lickety split and I had everything handled. And I found consistencies. I found it from what I was eating to who I was hanging out with, to how much sleep I was getting, to beauties in the world that I was noticing and really were affecting me, how I approach people, how I was approaching a day, conflict, how I was approaching and taking in things that work, success. And I found consistencies.

所以有时翻阅这些顺境时期的记录，能帮我度过后来的人生低谷。大学早期我就这么做。这也正是我朋友罗布·宾德勒说我该从事讲故事行业的原因——当时我既写短篇故事，也记录自己的特质，真正在尝试了解自我。

And so sometimes going back in those diaries, reading what I was writing when things were going well would help get me out of a rut later on in life when I wasn't doing so well. And I remember this early on in college. It's a reason that my buddy, as I mentioned earlier, Rob Bindler said, you should go into storytelling business. As I was writing short stories, I was also writing things down idiosyncrasies of myself. I was really trying to get to know myself.

在电影院时，我总是笑自己觉得最有趣的梗，全场只有我在笑。而那些引发集体笑声的桥段，我反而觉得不好笑。

I would always when I'd be in a movie theater, I always laughed. I thought the funniest jokes, and I'd laugh. I'd be the only one laughing in the theater. And I'd never thought the stuff that everybody laughed at was funny. The collective laugh, I never even giggled at.

我会嘀咕：‘这点子不怎么样啊’。但自己觉得好笑的地方别人都没反应时，我甚至会直接在影院问：‘没人觉得这个好笑吗？’

I was like, I don't know. Wasn't very funny. But I'd laugh at how it's the stuff that I was like, and no one else laughed. Was like, no one else thinks that's funny? I'd say that in the theater.

我还发现自己总为别人不哭的事落泪。比如从不为死亡哭泣，却总因新生命诞生哽咽——相比象征性的终结，开端更让我动容。于是我开始记录这些。

I found that I I cried at things that other people didn't cry at. Like, I've never really cried at death. I weep at birth. Beginnings always have made me cry more than proverbial ends. So I started writing these things down.

最初总觉得：‘我是不是怪胎？这样正常吗？人能成为这样的存在吗？’

And at first, was feeling like, you weird? I'm kinda, hey. Is this odd? Is this is this okay? Can you be this kind of a person?

是的，你可以带着评论离开。没关系。但让我们把这些事情写下来。写下让你发笑的事，让你最快乐的事，让你悲伤的事，让你愤怒的事。

And got the comments to go, yes. You can. It's okay. But let's write down those things. Let's write down what makes you laugh, what makes you happiest, what makes you sad, what makes you angry.

别担心这是否是大多数人的集体选择。只关注这对你意味着什么？把这些写下来。我相信，这塑造了角色，塑造了我自己的性格。

And don't worry if it's the collective choice of of of the majority. Just what what does it mean to you? And write those things down. And so that led to character, I believe. It led to my own character.

它让我能够尝试扮演不同的角色，去理解和共情不同的人，了解不同的人在不同时期会被什么触动或排斥。

It led to me being able to maybe go play different characters to understand and empathize with different people and have how different people have different things that turn them on and turn them off at different times.

为什么是绿灯？使用这个词背后的概念或意图是什么？它对你代表着什么？

Why green lights? What is the concept or the intent behind using that word? What does it represent for you?

首先，这是个很酷的书名。你知道，我经历过那些认真但不够成熟的大一、大二学生独立电影阶段——试图探讨存在主义或追求表面酷炫。比如我书里提到的'被迫寒冬'——现在的新冠时期就是我所说的'被迫寒冬'。

Well, one, it's just a pretty cool title. You know, I mean, I went through the very earnest, but not very good student independent films of a freshman or sophomore student like I was, you know, you're trying to work out something as existential or you want to sound really cool. Like, you know, I went through forced winters, you know what I mean? Because I have in the book what I would call a lot of forced winters. Mind you, I call this COVID time we're in right now a forced winter.

我人生中最富创造力的阶段都出现在'被迫寒冬'里，比如独自在澳大利亚留学那年。但'被迫寒冬'是个双重否定词——谁会想翻开一本叫《被迫寒冬》的书呢？而'绿灯'更具积极意义。

I had a you know, my most creative times came in my forced winters of life, my year in Australia abroad on my own. But forced winter's kind of a double negative. I mean, who wants to go open a book called Forced Winter? You know what I mean? Great life is much more affirmative.

我热爱动词，动词是神圣的词汇，它充满肯定性，充满生命力。'绿灯'成为本书主题，是因为生活中象征困境的黄灯和红灯——

And and I love verbs. I love words that that are verbs. Verb is the holy word, as I'm sure you know, and that it has affirmation. It it has it it's it's alive. And so green lights, I noticed, became a theme to the book because the metaphor of the yellow and the red lights that we have in our life, whatever those hard times are.

在翻阅36年日记时发现，那些明确的红灯（艰难时刻）、黄灯（中断干扰）最终都显露出绿灯的价值。比如父亲去世是红灯，但从长远看却是绿灯——若非他离世，我至今仍会懒惰。

I noticed in going through my diaries of thirty six years that things that were definite red lights in my life, hard times, yellow lights in my life, interruptions, interventions, things that stopped my flow and got in my way, that at some point, either sometimes immediately or decades down the line, revealed their green light assets in my life. I would argue my dad's passing was a green light. Now his dying was a literal red light. But as I mentioned earlier, I would not be the man I am right now if he did not move on. I would have stayed lazy.

我会继续活在他人光环下，缺乏自省与勇气。因为潜意识里总觉得：'搞砸了还有爸爸兜底'。他的离去反而让我获得成长契机。

I would have stayed more impressed and less involved. I would have not put myself to task and held myself and called myself to arms to man up and be more honest with myself honestly and have more courage if he had not passed on because I would have had him as a crutch. I would have had this sort of subconscious reliance that, oh, if I really get in a bond, I still got dad. I still got pop. He'll he he's my safety net.

因此父亲的离世为我揭示了绿灯。这个主题让我明白：有时需要坚持，有时则需要转向——就像我现在不该继续钻牛角尖。

So his passing revealed green lights for me. So green lights became a theme, and and it became I noticed that sometimes it's about persisting through something, enduring something. Other times, it's about pivoting. Wait a minute. I'm banging my head on the wall here.

我简直就是在实践疯狂的定义，用同样的方式一遍遍尝试改变某件事，却毫无变化。所以我需要重新调整策略，退后几步，或许迂回应对这个局面，绕着问题周旋才能达成目标。而有时我意识到，其实该举起白旗承认——知道吗？我在这里为错误的东西而战。

I'm basically living out the definition of insanity, trying to change something the same way over and over again, and it's not changing. So I need to reapproach this. I need to back up and and and and maybe dance around the situation, dance around the problem to get what I want. And then other times, I noticed it's just you raise the white flag and go, you know what? I'm fighting for the wrong thing here.

这违背了我的本性。这并非我真正渴望和需要的。所以我要保留实力改日再战，去寻找其他值得征服的挑战。这些就是我找到绿灯的方法。有时候我获得绿灯——我想大家都有过——纯粹靠死不认账的倔强。

This is going against my grain. This is not really what I what I want and need. So I'm gonna live to fight another day and go find something else to challenge to overcome. And so in those are methods in which I've been able to find green lights. Sometimes I've gotten green lights, I think we all do, by just sheer straight ass denial.

就像我在那堂重要课里写下的箴言，那是一位年迈智者告诉我的：我这辈子经历过无数危机，见鬼的是大部分根本就没发生。某种程度上，你只要否认危机存在就能渡过难关。

I mean, I write that line in the in that great lesson, that's wisdom I heard from a very old man one time. You know, I've had many crises. I've had thousands of crises in my life. Hell, most of them never happened. I mean, that partially, you can get through it by just denying that there is a crisis.

不是要愚蠢地逃避，但有些事我会直接说：我甚至不屑承认那是危机。只要我不赋予它名分，它就不存在。就像如果我不承认飞镖是飞镖，它扎不到我身上。明白吗？这就是获取绿灯的窍门。

Not being foolish with it, but some things I've just said, like, I'm not even gonna give that crisis credit. Therefore, it doesn't exist. There that dart can't stick to me if you throw it at me if I don't give it the if I don't even give credit that it's a dart. You know what I mean? So so that's that's the green lights.

归根结底，我相信在我们人生的后视镜里，每个红灯黄灯终将变绿。蒂姆，或许不在今生——对很多人来说转机可能发生在明天、下周、明年、十年后或临终时。如果仍未发生，我认为会在来世应验在我们的子女、孙辈身上。现在的苦难或许要三五代之后才会被领悟为绿灯。

I mean, ultimately, I believe that in the rearview mirror of our life, every red and yellow light will turn green. And that may not even be in this life, Tim. I think a lot of it happens for people in this life tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, ten years from now on our deathbed. But I if we doesn't happen then, I think it can happen in the next life for our kids or for our kids' kids, our grandkids. It's a lesson maybe realized three, five, 10 generations from now, it may become a green light for some hardship that we go through in this life now.

我们有无数讨论方向，我准备了八个选项。最有深度的那个？没错，正是我的最爱。

Well, there are a million directions we can go. I have eight options. That'll make sense. That's my favorite. Yeah.

等你明白我的思路就会觉得合理了。这本书呈现出多个主题——如你所说，像是本攻略手册，帮助人们要么改变现实，要么改变看待现实的方式，从而制造或识别各类绿灯。我列出的八个主题，就请你像发牌员般随意挑选吧。

It's well, you know, that would make sense as as soon as you hear where I'm going with it. So there are a number of themes that emerge in this book, which which I take to be, as you've mentioned, a playbook of sorts and helping you to either change your reality or change how you see that reality in the service of engineering or recognizing green lights of different types. Right? And the eight themes that I've written down here, I'm gonna let you take dealer's choice on. So you Okay.

我想选一个深入探讨：一、颠覆逻辑；二、找到你的频率；三、土路与自动纽带；四、这个标题很吸引我——下坡的艺术。

I'd like to pick pick one and ex and explore. So one, outlaw logic. Two, find your frequency. Three, dirt roads and auto bonds. Four, I like the sound of this one, the art of running downhill.

五、翻篇；六、箭不寻靶，靶自寻箭；七、勇敢些，拿下山头；八、此刻即活出你的传奇。

Five, turn the page. Six, the arrow doesn't seek the target. The target seeks the arrow. Seven, be brave, comma, take the hill. Eight, live your legacy now.

尊敬的先生，我们从哪个开始？

Where should we go first? Good, sir.

哦，天哪。这些真有意思。听着，我们开始吧。我想直接聊《下坡跑》那篇文章，因为我知道那个话题让你很感兴趣。也许我们可以从那个开始，顺便也谈谈土路。

Oh, jeez. These are fun. Look, let's start. I wanna get to Article Running Downhill because that one I know tickled you. So maybe we should just we can start with that one and we should we should maybe hit dirt roads as well.

土路和高速公路。来吧，我们快速过一遍土路和高速公路。因为这其实是对罗伯特·弗罗斯特那句'少有人走的路造就了所有不同'的简单反转——应该是他说的吧？

Dirt roads and Autobahns. Let's do it. Let's do dirt roads and Autobahns real quick. Just because it's it's a simple it's a simple flip on the I think it's Robert Frost, you know, the road less taken has made all the difference. You know, is that Robert Frost?

我相信我的听众或团队会告诉我们答案的。

You know, I'm sure that my listeners or my team will tell us.

如果不是他说的，请原谅我的误引，但你们都听过这句'少有人走的路造就了所有不同'，对吧？

If it's not, forgive the malaprop, but you know the quote, the road less the road less travel has made all the difference. Right?

呃，那个...

Well, that

这句话总让我觉得应该选土路。别随大流。记得在电影学院时，我是那个穿纽扣衬衫、牛仔裤靴子，阳光开朗的兄弟会男孩。而班上其他电影人都是哥特派——

always has been like, take the dirt road. Don't go where the majority goes. You know? And I remember in film school, I was the frat boy, button down shirt, jeans and boots, handshaker, non cynical, love the sunshine. And I was in a class with a bunch of all the filmmakers, it was the gothic group.

他们清一色黑T恤，躲在阴影里戴墨镜，蜷缩在教室后排。有次作业是周末去看场电影，周一讨论。

They all wore black t shirts. They they stayed in the shadows. They wore their shades. They kinda huddled in the back. I remember one of our classes was one of the things was, hey.

我兴高采烈讲《虎胆龙威》时，他们会发出'切，商业垃圾'的嘘声。

Everyone go see a movie this weekend. Come back Monday. Talk about your movie. Well, I'd come back and talk about, you know, Die Hard. And soon as I started talking about what I liked about it, they'd be like, ah, shit.

而他们周末全去看了爱森斯坦作品回顾展。当时我特别自卑，觉得他们才是真艺术家。

Stuff shit, man. That's corporate sellout crap. And I'd be like, oh, jeez. And I remember and they, you know, they'd all gone to the Eisenstein revival that weekend and and and would talk about that. And I remember being really intimidated going like, wow.

我不是。对。对。

They're artists. I'm not. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

对，对，对。我得把衬衫下摆拉出来一点。我得停止总往外跑，得停止贪恋阳光。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I gotta I gotta I gotta untuck my shirt here a little bit. I gotta I gotta gotta quit going outside and I gotta not appreciate the sunshine.

我得停止大声唱歌。我得...得更像哈姆雷特一点，懂吗？就在我进行这番内心独白时，我记得隔了一周又回到影院——我又去了连锁影院看热门电影并提起这事。班上那些穿黑衣扎堆的电影人立刻起哄：'啊，那是商业垃圾'。

I gotta I gotta quit singing out loud. I gotta I gotta I gotta more Hamleshian here, you know? And and just as I was going through that mental mediation on myself, I remember coming back again another week after a week and seeing the movies. And I had gone to the multiplex again and seen a a popular movie and brought it up. And, of course, the cat calls from all the the the other filmmakers in the class, all in black huddled up sort of been, ah, that's corporate shit.

没人看那种东西，那是出卖灵魂的作品。这次我没退缩，反而质问：'等等，你们怎么断定是商业垃圾？依据是什么？'

Nobody sees that. That's a sellout. And I remember instead of backing down this time, went I went, wait a minute. Did you see how do you know it's corporate shit? How do you notice?

凭什么这么说？他们突然哑火面面相觑，支支吾吾半天，最后有人说：'呃...我们其实没看过...就是...你懂的'

What makes you say that? And they all stopped and kinda started looking at each other and started stuttering. And then finally, one of them goes, well, I mean, we didn't see it. I mean, we don't know. But, I mean, we just you know?

我直接爆粗：'去你妈的！还以为你们都看过才有高见，结果连看都没看！'那一刻我突然醒悟——原来我走的所谓'少有人走的路'...

And I went, fuck you. Fuck you, man. I said, after this time, I thought y'all been seeing it, and you got this you haven't even gone to see it. So that was where it hit me. I was like, oh, there I was thinking that the road less taken.

懂吗？有时候我的'泥巴路'其实是连锁影院的快车道。而他们的'泥巴路'本该是...他们真该先去看看那些主流商业片再评价。

You know? Sometimes a dirt road my dirt road was the Autobahn of the multiplex. You know? My my my their their their dirt road, you know, would have been would have would have been the same. May they needed to go see that go see a a popular studio movie before just calling it off as nothing.

就像生活中有人患广场恐惧症——他们的'泥巴路'就是走出家门。对社恐或孤僻者而言，他们的'泥巴路'是强迫自己社交。

Sometimes, you know, if there were two and I've had it in my life. Someone say someone's an agoraphobic. Their dirt road is getting out. You know? Someone who's a bit of a hermit or socially uncomfortable.

要主动出去与人互动练习。所以这是个辩证关系——少有人走的路可能是泥泞小路，也可能是...对某些人在某些阶段，那就是快车道。

Their dirt road is being an extrovert. Go out, engage, practice So it's it's a flip on that, that sometimes it's you know, the road less taken can be a dirt road. Yes. Many times. The path less taken.

我以前过分外向，从不独处看书或自省——那时内省就是我的'泥巴路'。现在？老天，我有时沉迷内省到宁愿躲在暗房写作也不想见人。

And other times, for some people, some of us in our times in our life, it's an auto bond. And sometimes, you know, I've used to be so extroverted, I never would spend time with myself reading a book or doing introspection. Well, that was a dirt road for me to take some introspect. Now, shoot, sometimes I love being introspective so much. I like being in my dark room writing more than I like engaging with people.

所以现在我的'泥巴路'反而是：'放下笔吧麦康纳！滚出去拥抱世界！'这标准会变——有时是羊肠小道，有时是康庄大道。

Well, my dirt road sometimes now is like, put the pin down, McConaughey. Get your ass out in the world and go engage in the daylight and get out there. So it changes for us. And sometimes it's a dirt road. Sometimes it's an autobahn.

确实是罗伯特·弗罗斯特。我可以确认。

And it is Robert Frost. I can confirm.

谢谢，罗伯特。是的。另一件让你下山途中忍俊不禁的事就是下坡跑的艺术。现在

Thank you, Robert. Yeah. The other one that that tickled you on the way down is the art of running downhill. Now

我能就土路和高速公路再追问一个问题吗？根据我的理解，你似乎在说面对可能的不适或需要克服的犹豫时，采取主动态度至少是课程的一部分。介绍我们认识的瑞安·霍利迪曾鼓励我向你请教斯多葛主义，因为从某些方面看这与前者相关——历史上许多斯多葛学派人物会特意安排时间去做令他们不适的事。作为旁支话题，你对斯多葛主义有什么见解吗？

may I may I actually ask a follow-up to the dirt roads and autobahns? So it seems like, if I'm hearing you correctly and understanding, that it is a proactive approach to facing the discomforts that you may have or the hesitation that you may need to face, at least in part, seems like that is part of the lesson. And the person who introduced us, Ryan Holiday, had encouraged me to ask you about stoicism, which seems to, in some respect, tie into that since many stoics, at least historically, those people we've read about, would take periods of time to do the things that would lead them to discomfort. Do you have any just as as a side avenue here, do you do you have any perspectives on on stoicism?

我觉得我有见解，但可能会搞砸这个回答，因为我对斯多葛术语的了解远不如你和瑞安。我要说的是：他的另一本书《障碍即道路》指明了方向，我也以自己的方式在书中多次提及。选择正确的艰难挑战，出于正确理由做艰难决定，选择要克服（或至少尝试克服）的障碍，都是极其智慧的修行。正如我在书中反复强调的，独自远离尘嚣、与最糟糕的自己相处——哪怕那是你见过最差劲的混蛋。

I mean, I think I do, but you're gonna I'm probably gonna botch this up because I I don't exactly know the vernacular of the stoics near as well as you and Ryan do. I will say this. You know, his other book, Obstacles, is is the way, and I've touched on this in my book a lot, in my own way. Look, the need for resistance, the need to choose the right harder challenge, the need to choose the harder decision for the right reasons, the need to choose the obstacles for which to overcome or at least attempt to overcome is very, very wise engagement. The need, as I talk about in my book quite a bit, to get away and go off on your own and be stuck with yourself, even if it's the worst fucking company you've ever had.

这样做很有价值。强迫自己停留在红灯区，与那个你无法摆脱却深恶痛绝的人共处，这种苦修颇有裨益。是的，我用过这个词，也经历过这种时刻。

That is a good thing to do. There is a good valuable penance. There are green lights in that forcing your red light, sit pushing yourself into the red light of being stuck with the only person you can't get rid of even though you hate him. And, yes, I use that word. And I've had those times.

在那些卑躬屈膝、辗转难眠、呕吐不止、无法摆脱心魔、被罪恶感吞噬的时刻，当感到'天啊我迷失了却无处可去，没有电话、汽车，也没有朋友可求助'。

And in those times of groveling and discomfort and I can't sleep and I'm throwing up and I can't get the monkeys off my back and I got the guilt and, oh my god, I'm lost, but I've got nowhere to go. I got no one to reach out to. I don't have a phone. I don't have a car. I ain't got a friend.

经历这些不眠之夜时，不断自问'何时才是尽头'，然后开始思考：'好吧，麦康纳，我们要原谅什么？什么时候该喊停并做出改变？'

Well, going through that, those sleepless nights and going, when is this gonna end? And going through, well, all right, McConaughey. What are we gonna forgive? And what are we gonna say? Enough's a fucking enough, and we're changing that in our lives.

让我们握手言和吧，因为你是唯一那个我甩不掉的混蛋。

And let's shake hands on this because you're the only son of a bitch I can't get rid of.

如果你不介意，我想接着这个话题——这可能暴露了我散漫非线性的思维。我们稍后会回到下坡跑艺术，我保证。你刚才谈到与自我独处的苦修，那种能创造绿灯的孤独红灯。

Well, let's if you don't mind, I wanna take it and this is just the nature of my perhaps unfocused, perhaps nonlinear mind. We're gonna come back to the art of running downhill. I will not forget. Yeah. But you're talking about you you were talking about the paying the penance of spending time with yourself, the red light of solitude that can create green lights.

据我所知，你写这本书时曾独自在沙漠断电生活52天？这是真的吗？

Why did you write this book as I understand it, or you went away to the desert by yourself for fifty two days without electricity? Is this true?

最初的十二天完全没有电。接下来的四十天里，部分地方电力供应有限。但我被单独监禁了五次，每次都是不同的行程。所以我将它们分散开来。我得回家处理些家务事，与家人保持联系，确保家里一切运转正常，然后我妻子才会再次送我出门，说‘出去吧，直到你有所收获再回来’。

The first twelve days were no electricity. The other forty were limited electricity in places, But it was five different trips I took to to solitary confinement each time. So I spread them out. I had to come home and take care of some some honeydoos and check-in with the family, make sure everything was running good at the homestead before my wife sent me off again and said, get out of here, and they'll come back until you got something.

所以独处似乎也是一条贯穿线，至少算是一种修行吧。嗯。关于独处还有那些你与自己相处的时刻——我猜其实每时每刻都是——我想知道，你在内心独白时，对自己说姓氏和名字会有区别吗？或者你会用名字称呼自己吗？

So solitude seems to be also a through line, at least a practice of sorts. Yeah. Any other commentary on on solitude and in those moments when you're spending time with yourself, I guess is all the time, but I wanna know, do you have in your inner monologue a difference between when you say your last name to yourself and your first name? Or do you ever use your first name when you're talking to yourself?

我明白。知道吗？问得好。让我告诉你，对未来迈克·泰森最有利的就是迈克·泰森自己想要...是的，我确实思考过这个问题。

I know. You know what? Good question. Well, let me tell you what the best the the best thing for Mike Tyson in the future for is what Mike Tyson wants to is yeah. I I I've thought about that.

用第三人称和自己对话是件有趣的事。但当你进行苏格拉底式对话时，得给另一个自己起个名字。我打算叫我的另一个自我‘麦康纳’，就这么称呼自己。来聊聊这些对话吧。

It's a fun thing to talk talk about to yourself in the third person. But when you're in a Socratic dialogue, you gotta give your other self a name. And I guess I'll call mine McConaughey. I'll just call myself McConaughey. And I and, you know, these dialogues, let's talk about those.

你知道有句老话说‘别自言自语’？胡扯！就该和自己对话。关键是要记住，当我们向自己提问时，务必给出答案。

You know, this the that old adage, oh, don't talk to yourself. What? Bullshit. Do talk to yourself. What I think we need to remember to do is when we're asking ourselves these questions, just make sure we answer.

如果只提问而不寻找答案，这有时会导致严重的精神失衡。

If all we're doing is asking ourselves questions but never coming up with an answer, well, that can lead to some very imbalanced insanity at times.

这个观点极其重要。我想暂停一下让大家好好消化。请继续，但这真的太关键了。回想我经历的抑郁期，往往就是当我不断提问却不愿花时间坐下来写下答案或思考答案的时候。

That's a really, really important point. I just wanna pause to let that sink in for people. So so please continue, but that is so so important. Just looking back at my depressive periods that I've experienced, it's when I'm asking a lot of questions and not actually taking the time to sit down and write down the answers or think about the answers.

没错。或是强迫自己停留在问题的煎熬中，而不是想着‘我放弃了，酒在哪？’或者‘哪里能找到关注？’‘有什么娱乐？电视在哪？’

Yeah. Or force yourself to remain in the discomfort of the questions instead of going, I I give. Where's the bottle? Or where's, you know, where's some attention? Or or, or, where's, where, where's something, some entertainment, where's the TV?

明白我的意思吗？别转移注意力。不要逃避困境。不要中止那些充满疑问的时刻。有些时候当我开始这种状态，我知道在找到出口前会持续很久...

You know what mean? So I can get my mind off of it. Don't avoid situation. Don't abort the times when we got the questions. Now, you, you know, I've had to, you know, in some of those times when I'm going off and I know it's gonna be a we're gonna I'm gonna I don't know how long it's gonna be till I come out the other side.

我不得不戴上头盔、护颌和牙套，给墙壁装上软垫。因为我知道这将是一场我与自己的摔跤比赛。出发前我会检查地板——当你要进行这种探索时，最好先确认地上没有碎玻璃，移除尖锐物品。因为这会是一场四维度的较量。

I've had to take a helmet and a chin strap and a mouth guard and put padding on the walls. You know, because I knew it was going be a wrestling match with the me and the me. So and I've checked the floor before I go. It's nice when you go off to do these things to go, let's check the floor and make sure there's no broken glass, where let's remove the sharp objects. Because this is gonna get four dimensional.

要知道，坚持面对未知的戒断过程，经历那些问题的拉扯——我指的不是物质依赖的戒断，而是与自我无法和解的戒断——这本身就是件了不起的事，之所以艰难是有原因的。但正如你所说，关键在于坚持到找到答案为止。

And, you know, so but to stick in there with it and to go through the withdrawal of the not knowing, to go through the draw of the questions. And I don't mean withdraw from a from a substance. Go through withdrawal of not getting along with yourself is, I mean, a great thing to do, and it's hard for a reason. But again, that goes back to what you said. It stay there till you answer it.

等到你得到答案。等到你明白自己该原谅什么，认清什么是你受够了的，什么是你坚决拒绝的。不，我绝不再容忍自己那部分了。我们不会在同一个错误上反复跌倒，麦康纳或蒂姆。

Wait till you get an answer. Wait till you either figure out what you're forgiving and figure out what you're gonna you what you've had enough of, what you're like, no. No. I'm not putting up with that part of myself anymore. We're not gonna keep being repeat repeat offender on that, McConaughey, or Tim.

懂我意思吗？然后我们会改变。突然间，某种恩典降临。当你穿越到彼岸时会发现：好吧，现在我不得不与这个甩不掉的伙伴共处。既然必须同行，至少我们达成了和解。

You know what I mean? And and we're gonna change And then all of a sudden, there comes some grace. You come out the other side and like, oh, okay. Now I'm stuck with my buddy, the one I can't get rid of. If we're gonna do this, at least we shook hands.

你并不完美，但我们在前进。这段被迫独处的时光让我们进化了些许。但说到底，回答那些问题、坚持对话、至少让独处初期的自我对话有所升华——我始终推崇人与自我对话，只是记得要给自己回应。

And you're not perfect, but we're moving forward. We've evolved a little bit because of this time that we forced to spend with ourselves. But, yeah, to answer those or stick with it or, you know, to evolve the conversation from where it was when you first went into solitude, at least. You know? So I'm a fan of people talking to themselves and say it just remember to answer yourself.

明白吗？但别让对话单向进行。除非你能回应，否则算不上苏格拉底式的对话。

You know? You know? But don't just have it a one way. It's not a Socratic dialogue unless you can respond.

下坡跑的技巧。什么是下坡跑的艺术？

The art of running downhill. What is the art of running downhill?

好。我在《杀戮时刻》上映后迅速获得巨大成功，那部96年的电影。我是说——嗯。

Okay. So I get successful. I got major fame very quickly after A Time to Kill came out. The film I did in '96. And I mean Mhmm.

从上映前那个周五下午，到首映周末后的周一，我的整个世界突然天翻地覆。从此世界变成一面巨大的镜子，我再也没遇见过陌生人。那个周五下午《杀戮时刻》上映前，有100个剧本任我挑选。

From the Friday Friday afternoon before it came out to the Monday after the weekend it came out, my whole world was whoop inverted. The world all of a sudden was one big mirror. I never meet strangers since that day. It was inverted. I mean, that Friday afternoon before Time to Kill comes out, there's a 100 scripts out there.

我想演——开什么玩笑？哪个都行。好吧99个不行，只能选1个。但电影上映两天后，情况变成了99个都能演，只有1个不行。我简直震惊：两天前我什么戏都愿意接却只能选一部，现在99部任我挑？

I wanna do I wanna do all are you kidding me? I'll do any of them. Well, 99, no. You can't. One of them, yes.

两天时间就完全反转了。

You can. Well, in a matter of two days after that film opened that week and it did well, that 100 scripts, it was yes, you can do 99, one no. So I was like, woah. Two days ago, I would have done any of these and could only do one. And now it's only two days later, but you're telling me I can do 99 of them.

帮我分辨、区分。我能做出选择吗？我是谁？天啊。你想做什么？

Help me discernment, discrimination. Can I make a choice? Who am I? Jeez. What do wanna do?

一天只有二十四小时，这是我上次确认的。我需要更多时间。所以我当时有点，你知道的，失衡、不堪重负，双脚和灵魂都没能踏在地上。记得那时候——我还想起之前讲石油和墨水故事时提到的那位律师杰瑞·哈里斯。

There's only twenty four hours in the day. This is the last I checked. I need more. So I was a little, you know, imbalanced, overwhelmed, didn't have my feet, my soul on the ground. And there were times that and I also remember that same lawyer I talked about in the oil and ink story, Jerry Harris.

我记得他对我说。他主动联系我——我们多年没见了——他说：'嘿，马修，你来自德州山谷的小镇，从朗维尤起步，现在成了好莱坞大明星，拥有这一切。'他提醒我：'千万别被冒名顶替综合征折磨得太厉害。'

I remember him telling me. He reached out, I hadn't talked to him for years, he reached out and he goes, hey, Matthew, you're from a small town in Valley, Texas. You know, you came in through Longview, Texas. Now you went out there, now you're a famous Hollywood star and you got all these things. He goes, make sure you don't suffer too much from the nondeserving complex.

有些出身寒门却功成名就的人会这样。这话让我深有感触，因为我发现——打着'障碍即道路'的旗号——我总在给自己制造障碍，有些根本没必要。意思是：看看我的生活，我很成功，一帆风顺。

That happens with some people that get real successful from sort of humble beginnings. And it made a lot of sense to me because I was noticing that, you know, in the name of obstacles being the way, I was creating obstacles for myself, some of them very unnecessary. Meaning, here's my life. I'm successful. I'm rolling.

我一路绿灯，顺风顺水。但面对成功我处理得并不优雅，有时会变得好斗（其实没必要）。就像老话说的——要知道，有想要证明的东西很正常。

I am catching green lights. I am going I'm rolling downhill. I very less than gracefully handled some of my success. I would become belligerent at times I didn't become belligerent. Trying to pre you know, at the end of the always say this, don't you know, it's okay to have a point to prove.

别总想着证明什么。我有很多次试图证明自己，你懂我意思吗？那其实是我内心的不安全感在作祟，是我自己在试图寻找某种平衡。

Just don't always be trying to prove a point. I had many times where I would try to prove a point. You know what I mean? And it was my own insecurity. It was my own self trying to find some balance in this.

问题出在我身上。我看着好莱坞这群人虚情假意地突然说'我爱你'，而我这辈子只对四个人说过这句话。在这里人人挂在嘴边，他们简直满口谎言。

It was me. I was seeing the mendacities of of all these people in Hollywood, all of a sudden saying, I love you. And I'm like, man, I've said that to four people in my life. And everyone says it out here. So they're they're full of shit.

我当时甚至把一切都个人化，某种程度上是在糟蹋递到我手上的红毯香槟和鱼子酱。懂我意思吗？没错。有时我会滑向更庸俗的自我，来个俗话说的'脸刹'——就像下坡失控。既然这一切都是坦途，我反而需要点阻力。

It was it was I was taking things personally even and sort of sabotaging some of the red carpet wine and caviar that was being handed to me. You know what I mean? Right. And I was slipping to some of my more banal self at times, and doing a proverbial face plant, meaning I'm running downhill. And since this is all easy street, I need resistance.

所以我想故意绊倒自己，脸着地撞上水泥地，把鼻子撞断，然后就能说'啊，这才对嘛。现在是我挣来的，现在我能感受到了，现在这是我应得的'。

So I think I'm gonna trip myself and face plant and break my right into the concrete so I can break my nose so I can be like, ah, there I go. Now I'm earning it. Now I feel it. Now I've earned it. Now I deserve it.

嗯，这可能有点蠢。下坡也是门艺术。后来我明白了：艰难时刻总会到来，好日子会有干涸的时候。

Well, that can be a little foolish. Mhmm. There's an art to going downhill. So what I noticed was, oh, hard times are gonna come. It's gonna get dry.

你将无法随心所欲地执行任何计划。我经历过那些时刻。或是感情中遭遇挫折，或是家人生病。真正的艰难时刻总会降临我们的生活。

You're not gonna be able to do whatever script you wanna do. I've had those times. Or in a relationship we go through, it doesn't go well. Or someone gets sick in the family. A real uphill battle enters our life.

所以下坡的艺术在于：嘿，享受它。当你顺风顺水时，别自己绊倒自己，因为上坡路迟早会来。明白吗？不管你想不想它都会来。所以现在别栽跟头摔个狗吃屎，反正很快你就得拼命努力了。

And so the art of running downhill is about, hey, enjoy it. When you're going downwind downhill, don't trip yourself because that uphill's coming. Alright? It's gonna come whether you want it to or not. So don't trip yourself and face plant right now because you're gonna have to work your ass off here very shortly anyway.

我们来聊聊可能是上坡路、可能是暂停、也可能是其他情况——我很想听你谈谈后来确实发生的一个决定，就是在一段时间内拒绝大量机会。看起来当你非常成功时，就像你说的几乎一夜成名，各种意想不到的机会接踵而至，取得一连串成功后，却突然意识到：等等，我可能正被逼入死角，于是开始说不。

Let's talk about perhaps an uphill, perhaps a pause, perhaps something else, which I'd love for you to comment on, which did come later, and that was a decision, which I'd love to explore, to say no to quite a lot of opportunities for a period of time. It it seems like at one point, you're very successful. You became very famous, like you said, practically overnight. You're being offered opportunities you you couldn't have imagined a week prior, and you have a string of successes, and then you realize, well, wait a minute here. I might be getting painted into a corner, and you start to say no.

嗯。你开始拒绝比如高片酬的动作片邀约之类的。是的。这么做困难吗？有人支持你这样做是对的吗？

Mhmm. You start to turn down, say, action film opportunities with big paychecks, things like that. Yep. Was that hard to do? Did other people say that you were doing the right thing and encourage you?

能详细说说那段经历吗？

Could you walk us through and just tell a story about that experience?

当然，很乐意。这大概是在...记不清具体年份了，估计十二三年前吧。那时我正专注拍浪漫喜剧。

Yeah. Love to. So this is around I don't remember the year. I'm guessing it's around twelve, thirteen years ago. I was rolling with the romantic comedies.

我从休·格兰特手中接过了接力棒，成为浪漫喜剧男主角的首选。这类电影中等预算，3到3.5亿美元，给我的预付片酬不错，票房能卖6千万。对制片厂来说不用像大片那样砸数亿美元制作。

I had taken the baton from Hugh Grant and was the the male lead rom com go to guy. Rom coms are mid level budgets, $3,035,000,000. They offer a good front end paycheck to me. They go make 60,000,000. I mean, the studios don't have to overspend and spend hundreds of millions of dollars to make them.

只要男女主角化学反应好，观众就爱看。我的浪漫喜剧很成功，它们是我的摇钱树，也是好莱坞对我的定位。

You get a good female and a male lead that have good chemistry. People love to go escape to them. My oncoms are doing well. They were my bank. They were what Hollywood banked on me to be in.

那时我住在马里布，学会了冲浪，经常赤膊上阵。狗仔队——我后来管他们叫探索频道——全程记录。我就想：尽管拍吧，这就是我真实的生活。

At the same time, I'm living in Malibu, learned to surf, got my shirt off. And the Paparazzi or Discovery Channel, as I go on, was documenting this. And I'm like, you're damn right. Document it. This is the life I'm living.

我热爱这种生活，是努力工作换来的。那些报酬丰厚的浪漫喜剧，支付了我海边别墅的租金，让我能面朝这片冲浪的海域。所以我当时完全乐在其中。但同时也注意到，当我想尝试其他正剧时，甚至当我说'别再把我当陌生人看待'时，人们对我的认知方式、接触方式和谈论方式都缺乏深思熟虑。

I love it. I worked and earned to get this life. And those romantic comedies that I get paid so handsomely for actually pay the rent at the house on the beach that I live in in front of this water that I'm surfing in. So I was full on shaking hands with going, yes. At the same time, I did notice that any other dramas I wanted to do, or even the way people sort of when I said don't meet strangers anymore, even the way these sort of people thought of me or approached me or talked to me or about me, there was no considerate.

当时的情况就像是，马特·康诺利就是那个不穿上衣演浪漫喜剧的家伙。而我就想，没错，我就是。但只有我能回答那个后续问题，也只有我能接上那句话。其他人都不行。他们觉得，好莱坞肯定适合我。

It was it was it was like, Matt Connolly is the shirtless rom com guy. And I was like, yeah, I am. And I'm but there only I could answer that second question of and I'm like, only I could continue that that that sentence. No one else could. They were like, Hollywood, for sure.

但事实是，没有其他选择。所以我想尝试的剧情片或其他类型电影，没人愿意和我合作。我记得那时我们刚迎来利瓦伊，卡米拉和我刚有了

Was like, no. Nothing else. And so any dramas I wanted to do or other pictures, no one wanted to make them with me. And I remember I just we had just had Levi. Camilla and I just had

我们的第一个

our first

儿子，我的生活充满活力。老兄，我刚有了新生儿。我遇到了想共度余生的挚爱。我笑得更畅快，哭得更彻底。

son, and my life was so vital. Man, I just had a newborn. I've met the woman that I love and want to spend the rest of my life with. I'm laughing harder. I'm crying harder.

我比以往任何时候都快乐。生活如此鲜活，而我深陷其中——我真实的生活确实如此。但我的工作感觉就像...是啊，明天早上我就能搞定。

I'm happier than ever. Life is very vital and I'm in it. My real life is. But my work feels like, yeah. I could do that tomorrow morning.

今晚把剧本给我看看，明早我就能演。这根本难不倒我，浪漫喜剧也毫无挑战。我的生活就像一路绿灯。

Just give me the script tonight. Let me look at it. I could do it tomorrow morning. It wasn't really challenging me, and the rom coms weren't challenging me. And my lifestyle was one big green light.

要知道，如果全是绿灯，全是糖和糖果，我们能把任何人惯成暴君。所以我当时说，我真希望我的工作能...我记得对着镜子说：听着，麦康纳，如果你的生活比工作更鲜活真实，假如必须二选一，这其实是好事——我知道很多人工作比生活更重要。所以我说，这是好事。

And, you know, too many if it's all green lights, if it's all sugar and candy, we'll we can elevate tyrants out of anybody. So I was saying, oh, I really want my I wish my work could I remember saying this. At least I remember looking in the mirror actually and going, okay, McConaughey. So if your life is more vital and true to who you are than your work, well, if it's gotta be one or the other, that's a good thing because I know a lot of people that their work is more vital than their life. So I said, that's a good thing.

但我又说，天啊，能不能给我些能匹配我生活激情、能挑战我这个男人本色的工作？让我在作品中更能做真实的自己。可惜这类角色根本不会找上门。一个都没有。

I said, but, jeez, could I just get some work that might challenge the vitality of my life and the man I am in it? Where I can get some work where I can be more me in it. Well, those roles were not being offered to me. Nothing. Nope.

毫无机会。没有片厂会投资你演这些剧情片或你想要的另类角色。当时我手握《达拉斯买家俱乐部》的版权，但没人愿意为我制作，也没人愿意投资。于是我决定：既然不能做想做的事，而我想做的又没人提供，那么明智之举就是停止继续做那些源源不断找上门的浪漫喜剧。我打电话给理财经理说：听着，我要停掉现在唯一能接到的工作，不知道下次工作会是什么时候。

Not a chance. We won't no studio will bank you in this drama role or this other role you want. I had control of Dallas Buyers Club at that time, but no one wanted to make it for me nor would anyone finance it. So I decided that if I couldn't do what I wanted to do and what I wanted to do was not being offered to me, it would be prudent for me to just stop doing what I had been doing and what was in the pipeline continually coming to me, which were the romantic comedies. I called my money manager, said, all right, look, I'm gonna stop doing the only work I'm getting offered, and I don't know how long it's gonna be till I work again.

我的财务状况如何？他说：你投资保守稳健，没问题，可以休息。我记得接着就打给了CA经纪公司的经纪人吉姆·托斯。

How am I doing with my money? He says, you've invested well conservatively. You're fine. You can take time off. I remember calling my agent, Jim Toth, at CA.

吉姆，我不想再拍浪漫喜剧了。我记得这次对话。他说，很好。然后我说，等等。哇哦。

Jim, I wanna do romantic comedies anymore. I remember this conversation. He goes, great. And I go, wait. Woah.

哇哦。什么叫很好？他说，很好。我就问，你怎么能这么快就说出口？周一早上你走进办公室，怎么向上司交代说麦康纳不接浪漫喜剧了？

Woah. What do mean great? He goes, great. And I go, how do you say that so quick? What are you gonna say Monday morning when you go into your superiors in the office and say McConaughey's not doing romantic comedies?

这些年来麦康纳靠浪漫喜剧给你们带来了可观的分成，10%的佣金呢。他对我说了最酷的话：别为他们工作，我是为你服务的。

And McConaughey's been bringing a nice chunk, a 10% commission into you guys with these romantic comedies for years now. And he said the coolest thing to me. He goes, don't work for them. I work for you.

这话说得漂亮。

That's a that's a good line.

你是说，这是句漂亮话对吧？然后我去找了卡米拉，我妻子。你知道，为这事我已经在她面前流过不少眼泪了。

You mean, that's a line. Right? So then and then it was I went to Camilla, my wife. And I had been you know, I'd shed quite a few tears with her going through this. You know?

我是否觉得自己在工作中有欺骗感？是否感到工作缺乏意义？我这样想正常吗？就像我说的，记得吗，我现在正处于事业下坡路。明明能轻松赚大钱，为什么要自断财路？

Am I am I am I feeling fraudulent in my work? Do I feel a lack of significance in my work? Do I feel like, you know, is it okay to be feeling, you know, this? I mean, like I said, remember, I'm the I'm, as we said earlier, I'm kind of going running downhill. Why would you sabotage not doing the work you're getting off of when you can get paid so handsomely to do it?

但她理解我的灵魂需要重新校准，我当前的工作并不能真实表达我的生命状态。我告诉她：我想找到、等待那些能匹配我和你、儿子列维生活活力的挑战性工作。她对我重复那句话：听着，你会动摇的，我了解你。

But she understood that my soul was shaken and needed some recalibration and that the work I was doing wasn't a true sort of expression of who I was in my life. And I was I told her, said, I want to get find, hold out for some work that can challenge the vitality of the life that I'm living with you and our son Levi. And she repeated the lines to me. She goes, Okay, you're going to get wobbly. I've been around you.

你得工作，马修，你热爱成就。你会动摇的，说不定白天就会想喝点小酒。我就敷衍说知道知道。她很严肃：不是开玩笑。

You've got to work, Matthew, and you love to accomplish. You're going to get wobbly. You might start you know, reaching for a little sip of something to drink earlier in the day, too. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. She's like, no.

她说日子会变漫长，不知道这种她称之为'荒漠'的状态会持续多久。但既然决定要做，就不能半途而废。她复述了我父亲的话。

Goes, days are going to be longer. We don't know how long this will last, how long we'll be in this she called it a desert. How long this will be a desert? She goes, but if we're gonna do this, if you're gonna do this, we're not gonna half ass it. She repeated my dad's line to me.

我回答：遵命，夫人。抱着她哭湿了她的肩膀，我们约定从今天起不接浪漫喜剧。结果接下来半年，经纪人收到的全是浪漫喜剧邀约，除非是大制作我才看一眼。

And I went, yes, ma'am. Gave her a hug, put some tears on her shoulder, and we said, starting today, no more rom coms. Well, rom com offers came in to my agent for about the next six months, but nothing but rom com offers. And I didn't even unless it was a major offer. Yeah.

嗯，我刚说了不。他们当时就停在我经纪人的桌前。吉姆·多斯，不。然后其中一人提出了一份天价邀约。我经纪人说，这剧本确实相当不错。

Well, I I just said no. And I they just stopped at my agent's desk. Jim Doth, no. And then one of them came through that was like a gargantuan offer for it. And my agent said, it's a pretty damn good script too.

于是我说，把剧本发来让我看看。我记得这个。当时开价大概是800万美元，剧本确实不错。

And so I said, we'll send it out. Let me read it. We're gonna read it. I remember this. The offer was, like, for $8,000,000, and the script was pretty good.

但本质上仍是部浪漫喜剧。我记得看完后说，不了，谢谢。记得当时说'不'让我有种莫名的勇气和坚定。

But it was still a code of a rom com. And I remember reading it and going, no. Thank you. I remember feeling sort of emboldened and strengthened by saying, no. Thank you.

很好。坚持原则。不接浪漫喜剧。已经坚持半年了，现在更不能妥协。

Great. Sticking to my guns. No rom coms. Six months into this drought, nope. Not caving in now.

别半途而废，麦康纳。结果他们又开价1000万。不，谢谢。接着加到1250万。

Don't half ass it, McConaughey. So they come back with a $10,000,000 offer. No. Thank you. They come back with a $12,500,000 offer.

这时我开始犹豫了...不，谢谢。然后他们又涨到1500万。哇哦。

Now I go dot dot dot ellipsis ellipsis. No. Thank you. Now they come back with a $15,000,000 offer. Wow.

我说，要不我再重读下剧本？结果重读后发现，同样是那个800万报价的剧本，现在1500万的版本——虽然每个字都和800万时一模一样——但1500万的剧本看起来更棒了。

I said, you know what? Let me have another reread of that script. And I reread that script. And you know what? At $15,000,000, the same script that I've been offered for $8,000,000 the $15,000,000 offer script, which was the same exact words as the $8,000,000 offer script, the $15,000,000 script was better.

更有趣了。充满可能性。有发挥空间。我有灵感了。我能搞定这个项目。

It was funnier. It had possibilities. It had angles. I had ideas. I could make this work.

懂我意思吗？我是说，这真的可行。

You know? I mean, this could work.

现在我都能想象吉姆当时的表情：老兄，这招拒绝战术还真管用啊。

Now I'm imagining at this point, Jim is like, man, this say no thing is really working out.

他答应了，就在那边犹豫不决的样子，我知道我们之前说过，但那可是5000万美元。而且这剧本确实不错，虽然我知道是部浪漫喜剧，但剧本真的挺好。可我还是拒绝了。

He's in, and he's over there teetering like, I know what we said, you know, but $50,000,000. And it's not like it's a pretty good script. I know it's a rom com. It's pretty good script. But I said, no.

不，谢谢。这向好莱坞传递了一个明确信号——麦康纳要休个严肃的长假。所以连浪漫喜剧剧本都别发给他。消息很快就传开了。

No, thank you. Well, that got the signal across Hollywood that McConaughey was taking a serious sabbatical. And so don't even send him a rom com. It got around

所以这算是关键转折点？某种意义上就像决定性的一步棋。

So that was kind of the crucible then. I mean, that was like the crux move in a sense.

某种程度上确实如此。半年时我临时改了主意，这让他们以为我可能会屈服，可能只是在装腔作势。他们都在说：回来吧麦康纳，我们爱你。

In a way, that was a yeah. I called an audible six months in, and that had him thinking I might cave. I might just be posturing. And come on back, McConaughey. We love you.

但我坚持说不。当他们把片酬越抬越高，业内人都知道这个数字时，事情就变得很清楚了——天啊，好吧，麦康纳是认真的。

And I said, no. And when they had pumped the money offer up so much and people knew in the industry what that offer was, it became very clear. Oh. Oh, shit. Okay.

麦康纳不知道在搞什么，但肯定不接这种戏了。他再也不演浪漫喜剧了。接下来的12到14个月里，真的一个邀约都没有。零。

McConnell, I don't know what he's doing, but he ain't doing this stuff. He's not doing any more rom coms. And it became clear. So for the next, two, twelve, fourteen months, nothing came in. Nada.

彻底零。连个跑龙套的邀约都没有。每隔几周问经纪人，答复总是：没任何消息，完全没有。

Zilch. Not an offer for anything. I mean, check talk to my agent every couple of weeks. They'd just be like, nothing came in. Nothing.

就这样在荒漠期熬了20个月。幸好还有儿子要抚养，做父亲始终是我生命中最重要的事。这至少让我的罗盘有个指向——相信这件事：陪伴孩子成长，与家人守着这片土地，就算你偶尔迷茫，也要相信这永远是你人生的增值项，麦康纳。这个选择永远不会错。

So now we're twenty months into this desert period. I do have my son to raise, which being a father has always been the most important thing to me. That's got my compass at least directed in a place that I go just trust in this. It has something to do with raising your son and being here on the land with your family, that even if you start to wander, just trust that that's always gonna be in the asset section, McConaughey. You you you can't go wrong with that.

所以我坚持这个信念。当时我已经完全接受没戏可演的状态。我不知道未来要做什么，不确定是否会转行，可能当老师、教练或重操律师旧业，真的不知道。

So I stuck to that. And I was now fine with not doing any work. I didn't know what I was going to be. I didn't know if I was going to change my career, if I was going to become a teacher or coach or go back to being a lawyer. I didn't know.

我觉得不会。但那段时间我写作更多了，常说起'强制赢家'这个概念——我给自己下了这个定义。其实过得挺满足的。

I didn't think so. But I was writing more. Was talking about forced winners. I had put a forced winner on myself. And I was pretty content.

我并没有每天早晨醒来就想着，有没有新邀约？有没有新机会？我已经过了那个阶段。然后突然之间，在这片沙漠中跋涉了二十、二十一个月后，我开始收到一些有趣的邀约。威廉·弗莱金（William Freakin）的《杀手乔》，李·丹尼尔斯（Lee Daniels）的《送报男孩》，杰夫·尼科尔斯（Jeff Nichols）为我写了《污泥》，史蒂文·索德伯格（Steven Soderbergh）打电话邀我演《魔力麦克》，我和理查德·林克莱特（Richard Linklater）一起拍了《伯尼》。

I wasn't, you know, waking up every morning going, did an offer come in? Did something new come in? I was past that. And then all of a sudden, twenty months in twenty, twenty one months into this desert, I could start getting some offers that are interesting things. William Freakin, Killer Joe, Lee Daniels, Paperboy, Jeff Nichols wrote Mud for Me, Steven Soderbergh called Magic Mike, Richard Linklater and I go do Bernie together.

《真探》出现了，紧接着是《达拉斯买家俱乐部》。虽然还是没人愿意投一大笔钱拍一部关于艾滋病的80年代年代剧，但突然间，所有导演都不愿和我合作这部戏——他们想要剧本，他们爱这个剧本。

True Detective comes around. All of a sudden, Dallas Buyers Club. No one still wants to, you know, put a bunch of money up for a 1980s period drama about AIDS, but all of a sudden, McConaughey all the directors were no directors would do Dallas Buyers Club with me. They wanted they wanted the script. They loved the script.

但他们不想和麦康纳合作。直到我们找到让-马克·瓦雷（Jean Marc Vallet），他说：‘不，我...我想和麦康纳合作。’所以那二十二个月的干旱期、那片沙漠，让我褪去了标签——不是重塑，是褪去。

They didn't wanna do it with McConaughey. All of a sudden, we find Jean Marc Vallet who want who says, no. I I I'd I'd like to do it with McConaughey. So what happened was that twenty two months or what that drought, that desert, I unbranded. I didn't rebrand.

我褪去了标签。我离开公众视野，待在德州，没有在海滩上被拍到赤膊照片，不再演浪漫喜剧——我消失在世界的视线里，消失在行业的雷达上。我不再出现在你的客厅里，不再出现在你的影院中。

I unbranded. Me being away, me being in Texas, not being on a beach, getting pictures of me shirtless on a beach, not being in rom coms, I was out of the world's view. I was out of the industry's view. I was not in your living room. I was not in your theater.

我不再出现在任何人们习惯看到我、定义我的地方。我在哪儿？我消失了。‘麦康纳去哪儿了？’——只要你消失得够久。

I was not in any of the places that the world had become expectant to see me and how to see me. Where was I? I was gone. Where is McConaughey? Well, you're gone long enough.

突然间，我变成了一个值得考虑的新选择——在那二十个月结束之前，我从来不是个‘新选择’。然后突然间，我想要的机遇找上门来。我记得当时说：‘去他的钱，我要追求体验。如果读到某个角色让我战栗，挑战我在现实生活中的生命力，挑战真实的我——那就是我要的。’

All of a sudden, I became a new good idea, which I was not a new good idea in at any time earlier than that at the end of that twenty month period. And then all of a sudden, the things came to me that I wanted to do, and I remember saying, you know what? Fuck the bucks. I'm going for the experience. If I read a role that shakes me in my boots and challenges the vitality that I feel in my own real life and challenges me, the man I am in my own real life, that's what I'm going after.

老天，它们真的来了。我们相视而泣，说：‘干吧。’我开始全力以赴。家人跟着我跑遍每个片场，我开始投入那些真正让我兴奋的工作。

And, man, they came in. Come in, I looked at each other, shed some more tears, she we said, let's get after it. And I just started hammering them. The family came with me everywhere I went and just started laying down work that really, really turned me on.

我想深入追问几个问题。你妻子当时可能凭着某种先见之明——虽然我猜的——说你会动摇，日子会显得漫长，你可能比平时更早去碰酒瓶。你有哪些做法或助力能避免动摇，或在动摇时帮你恢复？

So I want to dig into a few follow-up questions here. So your wife probably with some sage foresight, although I'm guessing, said you're going to get wobbly, days are going to seem longer, you might reach for that bottle a little earlier than you would normally. What were some of your practices or some of the inputs that helped you to either stave off getting wobbly or to recover when you did get wobbly?

好问题。听着，我的家人——我和母亲、兄弟们都支持我。虽然他们觉得我疯透了，居然拒绝那五千万的邀约，坐在那儿问：‘你在干什么？’他们以为我是在下坡路上狂奔时脸着地。他们简直不敢相信。

Good question. Look, my family, me and my mom, my brothers supported me. They thought I was plum crazy for, you know, turning down that $50,000,000 offer and sitting there going like, what are you doing? They thought I really was face planting while running while having a downhill ramp to run down. They were like, what?

‘哪个正常人会这样？你都没工作了。你喜欢这样吗？’我说：‘是啊，这样很轻松，我喜欢。’

Who in your right mind would you're not working. Do you like that? I was like, yeah. That works easy. I like it.

他们给你开什么条件了？你到底有什么问题？但他们心知肚明。懂吗？他们早就知道我是个爱思考的人，远在那之前就清楚，知道我会认真对待那些处境。

And they're offering you what what the hell is your problem? But they knew. You know? They knew that I was, like, you know, that I was a thinker. They've known that since long before that, that I took myself, you know, in those circumstances seriously.

当时我正在自我反省。而他们觉得...他们其实理解，只是说'小兄弟，我们懂你。你很好，祝你好运。'

And then I was doing some soul searching in that. And and they thought I they they didn't they were like, that that makes sense to us, but we get it, little brother. You know? You're you're you're alright. Good luck.

他们确实支持我。必须说这点很重要。当时家里有人突发重大危机，需要我全神贯注去应对——就像生活中突然亮起的红灯，一场真正的硬仗，这给了我至关重要的使命感。

So they did support me. I'll say this. This this helped. We had a very real crisis in the family with someone in my family that needed all of my attention and all of my time. Meaning one of those real red lights that entered our life, a real crisis that a real uphill battle entered, which gave me a large sense of purpose, necessary purpose.

这是毋庸置疑的优先级。就算当时有好莱坞最理想的剧本角色找我，我也会为这场家庭危机推掉一切。亲人离世或重大变故最能让人清醒。

Like, it's not one it's one of those unequivocal things you don't question. It's like if I had gotten any job I wanted in Hollywood of a script to go act at that time, even then I wouldn't have done it during going through this family crisis. This was paramount. It was unequivocally the thing to take care of. So as you probably know, the death of someone in a family or a big real family crisis, that that that'll sober you up.

不是指戒酒那种清醒。是让你从剧本、电影这些尘世琐事中抽离。处理家庭危机是超越生死的大事。我全身心投入其中，这构成了我的全部身份认同，再加上抚养儿子的责任。

And I don't mean so be it from the bottle. That'll sober you up from missing any sort of, again, the scripts at that time, movies, making movies, that was a mortal thing. Dealing with this family crisis was an immortal thing. So I be I became very involved with handling this family crisis, And that is where my identity was. That coupled with my son's being raised.

对他而言每天都是崭新的。他正在认识我。能拥有这段时光多珍贵？因为我知道将来重返工作时，就不会再有这样的时光了。所以要珍惜被迫陪伴儿子的特殊际遇。

He's a brand new day for him every single day. He's getting to know me. How awesome is this that I get to have this time? Because I know I'll go back and do some work somewhere somehow later, and it's not gonna not gonna have this time. So let's lean into the assets of being forced here with your son.

和你爱的女人共建家庭，同时处理这场让你与血脉亲人更紧密的危机——我在这一切中找到了人生意义。通常就是这样，当你完全不再惦记工作时...

You're building a home with the woman you love, and you've got this family crisis that you're dealing with, which is bringing you close to your closer back, leaving closer to your blood family. So I was finding purpose in in in all of that. And, you know, as it usually happens, as it as it was getting to the point where, well, I don't care if any anything comes in. I'm not even thinking about it. If any work comes in, I don't really care.

工作机会偏偏就在这时候找上门来。

Of course, that's about the time that the work comes in.

你的人生轨迹在很多方面都非比寻常。是否存在某些你希望澄清的重大误解？无论是现在还是通过这本书，有哪些关于你的常见误解——无论是正面还是负面的？

You've traveled a very unorthodox path in many respects. What are some of the biggest misconceptions, if any? What are common misconceptions about you that you hope or that that you could clarify either right now or or through the pages of this book? Are there any are there any miss any misconceptions? Positive or positive or negative?

确实。有个曾经很在意的误解：很多人以为我每天睡醒就迷迷糊糊问'今天拍什么戏？这场戏讲什么？'

Yeah. I mean, look. One misconception, I think, which it used to concern me more so than it does now, is that, I mean, kinda everyone a lot of people think that I sort of, like, just wake up in the morning and go roll out of bed and say, all right, where's my mark? What are we doing today? What's this scene about?