#584：邵亦波——从粮票到管理数十亿的历程，追求完美的福与祸，1999年打造中国版eBay，育儿的支柱，以及追寻冷门之路

嘿，各位。我是蒂姆。在开始之前，先快速通知一下。我与Exploding Kittens的优秀团队合作开发的新卡牌游戏《Coyote》，现在已经成为全国畅销产品。情况简直疯狂到难以置信。

Hey, folks. Tim here. Before we get started, just a quick heads up. My new card game, Coyote, which I made with the amazing people at Exploding Kittens, is now a national bestseller. Things are going completely bananas.

它刚刚全面上市。亚马逊、沃尔玛、Target等8000多家零售店，任何能买到游戏的地方都有售。快去coyotegame.com看看游戏视频吧。目前游戏玩法视频已有3亿次社交浏览，简直令人震撼。

It just launched everywhere. Amazon, Walmart, Target, 8,000 plus retail locations, anywhere you can buy games. So check it out, see some videos of gameplay at coyotegame.com. 300,000,000 social views so far of gameplay. It's kind of mind blowing.

几分钟就能学会。我保证你们会笑个不停。这个项目已经筹备了两年。请尽情享受，快去试试吧。

Takes just minutes to learn. I guarantee you'll have a lot of laughs. This has been in the works for two years. Please enjoy it. Check it out.

访问coyotegame.com。现在回到节目。本期节目由Four Sigmatic赞助，它是我晨间和午后例程的一部分。规律作息拯救了我。我有多种使用Four Sigmatic的方式。

Coyotegame.com. Now back to the episode. This episode is brought to you by Four Sigmatic, which is part of my morning routine, also part of my afternoon routine. Routine saves me. So there are a number of ways that I use four Sigmatic.

早晨我经常用他们的蘑菇咖啡代替普通咖啡开始一天，而且它尝起来完全没有蘑菇味。让我解释一下：零糖零卡路里，咖啡因含量只有普通咖啡的一半。对肠胃温和，味道超棒，只需加热水即可。我常用旅行装。

In the mornings, I regularly start with their mushroom coffee instead of regular coffee, and it doesn't taste like mushroom. Let me explain this. First of all, zero sugar, zero calories, half the caffeine of regular coffee. It's easy on my stomach, tastes amazing, and all you have to do is add hot water. I use travel packets.

我可能带着Four Sigmatic的各种产品去过十几个国家，其中蘑菇咖啡是我的首选。旅行必带，推荐给员工，

I've been to probably a dozen countries with various products from Four Sigmatic, and their mushroom coffee is top of the list. That's number one. I travel with it. I recommend it. I give it to my employees.

也招待客人使用。所以如果你是60%以上每天喝咖啡的美国人之一，考虑换换口味吧。这东西太棒了。这是第一部分——认知增强、系统温和、提神醒脑的部分。

I give it to house guests. So if you're one of the 60% of Americans or more who drink coffee daily, consider switching it up. This stuff is amazing. That's part one. That is the cognitive enhancement side, easy on the system side, energizing side.

接下来要介绍的是他们的恰加茶，味道非常美味。它是无咖啡因的，完全不含咖啡因，有些人可能认识恰加。它被昵称为蘑菇之王，对免疫系统支持极佳。不用说，我现在自己也很关注这个，所以下午经常会喝。

The next is actually their chaga tea, which tastes delicious. It is decaf, completely decaf, and some may recognize chaga. It is nicknamed the king of the mushrooms. It is excellent for immune system support. So needless to say, I am focused on that right now myself, and so I will often have that in the afternoons.

他们制作各种不同的蘑菇混合饮品。如果你像我一样每天锻炼以保持理智，虫草菌对耐力特别好。他们有大量选项供你选择。每一批产品都经过第三方实验室检测重金属、过敏原等有害物质，确保到你手中的就是你想要入口的东西。而且他们始终提供100%退款保证。

They make all sorts of different mushroom blends. If you are doing exercise as I am on a daily basis to keep myself sane, Cordyceps, excellent for endurance. They have a whole slew of options that you can check out. Every single batch is third party lab tested for heavy metals, allergens, all the bad stuff to make sure that what gets into your hands is what you want to put in your mouth. And they always offer a 100% money back guarantee.

所以你可以无风险尝试。何乐而不为呢？我已经与Four Sigmatic达成了独家优惠，针对他们最畅销的猴头菇咖啡。我现在面前就有一满杯。这个优惠是专门为你们，我亲爱的播客听众准备的。

So you can try it risk free. Why not? I've worked out an exclusive offer with Four Sigmatic on their best selling lion's mane coffee. I literally have a mug full of it in front of me right now. And this is just for you, my dear podcast listeners.

享受高达39%的折扣。我不知道怎么算出39%的，但就是39%折扣。力度很大。他们最畅销的猴头菇咖啡套装。要获取这个优惠，你必须访问4sigmatic.com/tim。

Receive up to 39% off. I don't know how we arrived at 39%, but 39% off. It's a lot. Their best selling Lions Mane coffee bundles. To claim this deal, you must go to 4sigmatic.com/tim.

这个优惠仅限你们，在他们的常规网站上不可用。访问4sigmatic（拼写是f0ursigmatic）.com/tim，给自己买些超棒又美味的蘑菇咖啡。全额折扣将在结账时应用。本节目由Eight Sleep赞助。天啊。

This offer is only for you and is not available on their regular website. Go to 4sigmatic, that's f0ursigmatic,.com/tim to get yourself some awesome and delicious mushroom coffee. Full discount is applied at checkout. This episode is brought to you by Eight Sleep. My god.

我是不是爱上Eight Sleep了。优质睡眠是终极改变者。超过30%的美国人有睡眠问题，我就是这个悲惨群体的一员。温度是睡眠不佳的主要原因之一，而炎热一直是我的克星。几十年来我饱受辗转反侧之苦，掀开毯子又盖回去，如此反复令人作呕。但现在我入睡速度创纪录地快。

Am I in love with Eight Sleep. Good sleep is the ultimate game changer. More than thirty percent of Americans struggle with sleep, and I'm a member of that sad group. Temperature is one of the main causes of poor sleep and heat has always been my nemesis. I've suffered for decades tossing and turning, throwing blankets off, putting them back on, and repeating ad nauseam, but now I am falling asleep in record time faster than ever.

为什么？因为我正在使用Eight Sleep的Pod Pro Cover这个简单设备。这是以完美温度入睡最简单快速的方式。它将动态冷却加热与生物识别追踪相结合，提供市场上最先进但最用户友好的解决方案。我在社交媒体上就最佳睡眠工具向你们所有人发起投票，Eight Sleep以绝对优势成为大众首选。

Why? Because I'm using a simple device called the Pod Pro Cover by Eight Sleep. It's the easiest and fastest way to sleep at the perfect temperature. It pairs dynamic cooling and heating with biometric tracking to offer the most advanced but most user friendly solution on the market. I polled all of you guys on social media about the best tools for sleep, enhancing sleep and Eight Sleep was by far and away the crowd favorite.

我是说人们简直为之疯狂。所以我试用了它，效果就是这样。给你的现有床垫加上Pod Pro智能床罩，就能享受低至55华氏度（约12.8摄氏度）的清凉或高达110华氏度（约43.3摄氏度）的温暖。它还能将床分成两半，让你的伴侣选择完全不同的温度。我女朋友总是怕热。

I mean people were just raving fans of this. So I used it and here we are. Add the pod pro cover to your current mattress and start sleeping as cool as 55 degrees Fahrenheit or as hot as a 110 degrees Fahrenheit. It also splits your bed in half so your partner can choose a totally different temperature. My girlfriend runs hot all the time.

她不需要降温。她喜欢高温，而我们可以在各自那侧定制温度，这正是我们现在做的。对我和许多人来说，Eight Sleep用户入睡速度提升高达32%，睡眠中断减少达40%，整体睡眠质量更高。我个人可以证实这点，因为我用各种方式追踪数据。这是提升恢复的终极方案，让你能以焕然一新的状态迎接新一天。

She doesn't need cooling. She loves the heat, and we can have our own bespoke temperatures on either side, which is exactly what we're doing. Now for me and for many people, the result Eight Sleep users fall asleep up to 32% faster, reduce sleep interruptions by up to 40%, and get more restful sleep overall. I can personally attest to this because I track it in all sorts of ways. It's the total solution for enhanced recovery so you can take on the next day feeling refreshed.

现在，我亲爱的听众们——就是你们——可以享受Pod Pro智能床罩立减250美元的优惠。这很划算。只需访问8sleep.com/tim或使用优惠码tim。完整拼写是eightsleep.com/tim，优惠码tim（t-i-m）。8sleep.com/tim立减250美元购买Pod Pro智能床罩。

And now my dear listeners, that's you guys, You can get $250 off of the pod pro cover. That's a lot. Simply go to 8sleep.com/tim or use code tim. That's eight all spelled out eightsleep.com/tim or use coupon code tim, t I m. 8sleep.com/tim for $250 off your pod pro cover.

极简最优。

Optimal minimal.

在这个海拔高度，我能全速奔跑半英里才会手抖。我能回答你的私人问题吗？

At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start to shake. Can I answer your personal question?

现在我们看到的是本畅销书。

Now we're just seeing a book big time.

我是个生化人，金属内骨骼外覆盖着活体组织。嘿，大家好，男孩女孩们，女士们和小捣蛋们。我是蒂姆·费里斯。欢迎收听新一期《蒂姆·费里斯秀》，每期节目我的工作就是采访并解构各领域顶尖 performers，梳理出那些习惯、惯例，或许是框架、决策、方法——谁知道呢——总之是你能应用到生活中的东西。今天的嘉宾是Bo Shao，姓氏拼写b-o，名s-h-a-o。

I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton. Well, hello, boys and girls, ladies, and germs. This is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss Show, where each episode is my job to interview and deconstruct world class performers from all different areas to tease out the habits and routines, or maybe frameworks, decisions, approaches, who knows, that you can apply to your own lives. My guest today is Bo Shao, b o, last name, s h a o.

薄少是Evolve的联合创始人兼董事长，Evolve是一家由基金会（Evolve基金会）和影响力投资公司（Evolve风投）组成的慈善投资机构。以萧家族提供的1亿元初始资金，Evolve旨在支持缓解内心痛苦并促进内在转变的组织。这两个故事都相当精彩。让我们先了解一些背景，我们将按时间倒序展开。在创立Evolve之前，薄少是中国领先科技风投机构经纬中国的创始合伙人，该机构管理着超过70亿美元资金，投资了550多家企业，其中多数已成为独角兽。

Bo Shao is a co founder and the chairman of Evolve, a philanthropic investment firm composed of a foundation, Evolve Foundation, and an impact investment firm, Evolve Ventures. With initial capital of 100,000,000 from the Xiao family, Evolve aims to support organizations that relieve inner suffering and facilitate inner transformation. Both stories pretty wild. So let's jump into a little backstory and we're going to go in reverse chronological order. Prior to Evolve, Bo was a founding partner of Matrix China, a leading technology venture capital firm in China, which manages more than $7,000,000,000 and has funded more than 550 plus of which have become unicorns.

这意味着估值超过10亿美元。他还是一位连续创业者，联合创办了五家公司，这些公司要么已上市，要么成为各自行业的领军者。薄少出生于中国，高中期间曾赢得十余项全国数学竞赛冠军。对于不了解这意味着什么的人来说，这是极其了不起的成就。关于他的其他经历，我们将在对话中深入探讨，很快就会涉及。

That means valued at more than 1,000,000,000 USD. He is also a serial entrepreneur who has co founded five companies that have either gone public or become leaders in their respective industries. Bo was born in China and was the winner of more than a dozen national mathematics competitions during high school. For those who don't know what that means, it is a huge, huge deal and a very significant feat. I'm going to leave the rest of his bio to our conversation, we will dig in very, very quickly.

Evolve的网站是evolvevf（代表venture fund风投基金和venture foundation风投基金会），即evolvevf.com。他没有社交媒体账号，我们稍后会探讨原因。闲话少说，请欣赏我与薄晓（Bo Xiao）的广泛对话。

The website for Evolve is evolvevf as in venture fund, venture foundation. So evolvevf.com. He has no social media. We will dig into why that is. And without further ado, please enjoy my wide ranging conversation with none other than Bo Xiao.

薄先生，很高兴再次见到您。我想通过回顾我们最初的一次对话来开场，那次对话涉及番茄酱。对听众来说这可能是个奇怪的起点，但或许您可以提供一些背景，这样我们就能顺利切入主题。

Bo, it is nice to see you again, sir. And I wanted to perhaps set the stage by pulling from one of our very first conversations we ever had, and it involves ketchup. Might sound like a strange place to start for those people listening, but perhaps you could provide just a bit of context and that'll be a way we can jump in.

我在中国上海长大。我的父亲是数学老师，我想他现在已经退休了。他对我一直非常严格。作为父亲，他有许多优秀品质，这里就不赘述了。

I grew up in Shanghai, China. My fam my father was a math teacher. I guess he's retired now. He had always been very strict with me. He had many, many good qualities as a father, which I won't go into here.

但他做得不太好的地方是经常发怒，有几年时间里他总是生气。而且他会毫无预兆地暴怒，变得非常可怕。我记得有一天——大概是我五岁时...不，其实我记得很清楚，那时我十岁左右——他用啤酒瓶装着番茄酱回家。

But one of the things he did not do so well was he was angry all the time and often for a certain period of years he was angry. And also he would unpredictably get very, very angry and get very scary. So I think one day maybe when I was maybe five No, actually I know exactly how old. I was around 10 years old. He brought ketchup home in a bottle of a beer bottle.

我记得那是个绿色啤酒瓶，我们以前从没吃过番茄酱。和当时大多数中国家庭一样，我们生活很贫困。我未经允许偷偷尝了一口，他顿时勃然大怒。我不记得他是否打了我，但那场景非常恐怖。

I remember it's a green beer bottle and we never had ketchup before. We grew up poor like everybody else in China. And I think I stole a taste of it without his permission. And he flew into a rage. I do not remember whether he hit me or not, but it was very scary.

我确信我当时哭了，那真是段难熬的时光。几天后我回到家，发现他心情很好。不知怎的，这给了我勇气再次问他：我能尝尝番茄酱吗？这其实很令人意外，因为在那件事之后，我通常不会鼓起勇气做类似的事。但那次我做到了，因为他看起来那么开心。

And I'm sure I cried and it was a terrible time. And then a couple of days later, I came home and I saw him in a good mood. And I think that somehow gave me courage to ask him again, like, can I try the ketchup? Which actually is surprising because after that episode, I don't usually I would not have worked up the courage to do something similar. But in that case I did because he looked so happy.

于是他对我说：'小波（我的中文昵称），你可以尽情享用番茄酱。'我震惊了。不仅尝到了番茄酱，他还弯腰拥抱了我。我至今清晰记得那个场景发生的位置。

So he said to me, Bo, you can have my Chinese nickname is Xiaobo. It's like Xiaobo, you can have as much ketchup as you like. I was shocked. And not only I tried the ketchup and he actually bent down to hug me. I remember exactly where that happened.

就在厨房门口。此刻我脑海中仍能浮现那个位置的画面。说实话，我记不清太多细节了，不能说他从没拥抱过我，他可能抱过。但这个未经请求就得到的拥抱，在我心里留下了深刻烙印——

It was in front of the kitchen. I have a mental picture of that location right now. And I don't recall too much. To be fair, I can't say he did not hug me ever, yeah, he probably did. That left such a deep imprint in me of getting this kind of I didn't ask for a hug and he gave

给了我一个拥抱，你知道，在

me a hug you know in

一个非常微妙的时刻。这给我留下了极深的印象。后来我发现自己在全市竞赛中获得了第一名，大概是五年级的时候。那是场面向全上海所有学生的竞赛。

a very tricky situation And that left a very deep imprint on me. Then later on, I found out that I won my first mass competition. I think it was in fifth grade. It is a mass competition competition involving involving all all the the students students in in Shanghai. Shanghai.

当时的上海大约有一千二三百万人。而我在那场全市竞赛中名列第一。

Shanghai is like at that time probably a city of twelve, thirteen million people. And I was like clear number one in that mass competition.

所以他当时心情那么好？

And that's why he was in such a good mood?

我也这么认为。

I think so.

你能描绘一下贫困是什么样子，以及你当时的生活状况吗？我记得你提到过配给制之类的事情，希望能让听众了解更多细节。

Could you paint a picture of what poor looks like and what it looked like for you? Because I remember you mentioned rations and things like that, just so people have a little more detail.

首先我那时并不知道自己贫穷。因为所有人都很穷，所以我不觉得自己穷，这其实是件好事。但我们的成长环境是，在我四五岁的时候，餐桌上并不总有肉。所有东西都是配给的，包括牛奶、大米、食用油，肉类当然也是。海鲜更是极其罕见。

First of I didn't know I was poor. Everybody was poor, so I didn't know I was poor, which is actually a good thing. But the way we grew up is, you know, we when I was, you know, four or five years old, we didn't always have meat on the table. Everything was rationed, including milk, rice, oil, cooking oil, meat certainly. Very rarely any kind of seafood.

我想蔬菜可能不需要配给，我记不太清了。你得带着这些小票去杂货店，除了钱之外还要出示这些票证。我父亲当时的月收入肯定不到10美元，母亲也是每月挣10美元。

I think vegetable probably was not rationed. I can't remember. And you get these little tickets you have to carry to a grocery store in addition to the money. And they were making, I think my father was making maybe certainly less than $10 a month. My mother was also making $10 a month as well.

所以这些票证在某种程度上就像是食品券？

So the tickets are like food stamps in a sense?

但肉票、油票等等都是分开的。

But there's a ticket for meat, there's a ticket for cooking oil, etcetera.

明白了。你之前提到你父亲是位好老师，我希望你能接着这个话题继续讲，同时也很想听听扑克或纸牌游戏是什么时候以及如何进入你的生活的。

Got it. And you had mentioned your father was a good teacher and I'd love for you to pick up there and also I'd love to hear how and when poker or cards may have entered the picture.

因为我们太穷了，你知道，根本没有条件学数学。现在想学数学有很多工具可用。但那时候我们连算盘都没有。他最初只是在一张纸上写下算术题，比如5加7或15加28，让我计算。他得写出几百道这样的算式，而我需要解答它们。

Because we were so poor, didn't have ways of, you know, setting up maths. These days if want train maths, you have lots of tools to do it. But back then we didn't even have an abacus. He initially started just writing down arithmetic problems like five plus seven or 15 plus 28 on a piece of paper and asked me to add them. He has to write hundreds of these equations and I need to solve them.

但后来他说，哦，他有一天突然有了灵感。其实最初是从比我大三岁的姐姐开始的，他说，为什么不用一副扑克牌呢？显然A是1，2是2，J是11，K是13等等。然后你计算整副牌的总和，最初其实只算10张牌，然后增加到20张，再到40张，涉及1到10的数字，最后到52张牌，涉及1到13乘以4。总和我记得是3.64美元。

But then he said, oh, he sort of had one day had an inspiration. Actually initially started with my sister who was who is three years older than me and said, oh, why don't we use a deck of cards? And obviously ace is one and two is two and then jack is 11, king is 13, etcetera. And you add up the deck of cards, initially actually add up only 10 cards and then to 20 and then to 40 involving one to 10 and eventually to 52 involving one to 13 times four. The total sum, I think, $3.64.

然后他会从50张牌中抽走一张，拿走两张，让我计算剩下的总和。他会设定时间限制，所以我必须在规定时间内算对。我用这种方法训练了好几年。后来我变得非常快，能在12秒左右算出52张牌的总和。实际上就是为了能快速展示这些牌。

And then he would take one card from the 50 card, two cards away and ask me to add up the rest. And he will set a time limit, so I have to get it right within a certain time limit. And I think I trained for several years under this method. And I actually became so fast that I think I was able to add up to 52 cards under twelve seconds or so. And actually just to be able to, you know, show the cards so quickly.

我正想说，我甚至不觉得自己能在30秒内展示完这些牌

I was gonna say, didn't even think I could show the cards in 30 I

我发展出了一种特定的翻牌方法。基本上每秒能进行四五次运算。后来当我更了解神经生物学时，发现大脑识别一个图像大约需要100毫秒。要看清一张牌并处理信息，这已经需要十分之一秒了，有时甚至需要十分之一到六分之一秒。

developed a particular way of going through these cards. And I think I was doing basically more or less four or five calculations a second. And it turns out, actually just, later on as I understood a bit more about neurobiology, is that actually it takes about a 100 milliseconds for the brain to recognize an image. To be able to see the card clearly and take it in and then process information takes one tenth of a second already. Or sometimes depending one tenths to maybe one sixth of a second.

所以每秒能计算五组数字，可能已经接近人类生物学的极限了。

So to be able to add five quads in one second is probably at the close to the limit of of human biology, I guess.

你还从父母那里学到了什么？也许值得回溯一下，问问这个问题：你从那次与父亲关于番茄酱的经历中——先是因番茄酱发怒，后来又给了你'想要多少番茄酱都可以'的拥抱——潜意识里或明确地得出了什么教训？那次经历似乎与你赢得数学竞赛的时间重合。

What else did you absorb from your parents? And maybe it's worth also backtracking for a second and asking the question, what lesson, subconsciously or otherwise, did you take away from that experience with your dad with the rage over the ketchup and then the have all the ketchup you want hug from your dad that seemed to coincide with winning that math competition?

我其实仍在发现这些印记如何影响着我。你知道，我的经历和认知是，作为一个孩子时我极易被塑造，所有孩子都是如此，我带着某些东西一路走来。这并非他的本意，我要澄清这一点。但无论如何，这就是我携带至今的东西。

I'm still actually discovering how these imprints have affected me. You know, my experience is that, you know, and my understanding is that I was so imprintable as a child, all children are very imprintable, that I carried away with certain things with me. And that's not his intention. I want to be clear about that. But it's nevertheless is what I carried away with.

我接收到的其中一个印记是：我的价值源于我的表现。具体来说，几乎要成为第一名才算有价值。如果我不是第一，那我就毫无价值。谈论这个让我感到沉重，因为这实在是个沉重的负担。

And one of the impressions that I received was that my value comes from my performance. In fact, specifically to be almost like number one. That's my value. And if I am not number one, then I'm a person with no value. And I feel heaviness as I talk about it because it's such a burden.

在某种程度上这是个创造性的解决方案——事实上我成长过程中确实在许多事情上成为了第一，尤其是数学。我最终在中国赢得了数十次全国数学竞赛一等奖，这让我感到安全。那种表现让我获得安全感，我的印象是此后我确实得到了更好的对待。

And it was a creative solution in some ways because indeed I became number one in many things when I was growing up. Particularly in math. I ended up winning first prize in dozens of national math competitions in China and I felt safe. That performance enabled me feel safe. I think my impression is that actually I was treated better after that.

父亲的怒火减少了，他为我感到骄傲。我感觉生活因此显著改善。随着成长，我需要在所有事情上都表现出色。不再只是数学竞赛，不只是大学或第一份工作，这种近乎强迫的表现欲开始主导一切，甚至包括开车。

My father had less of a rage. He was so proud of me. I felt my life changed for the better, significantly better because of that performance. And then as I grew up, I needed to perform well in everything. It's not just mass competitions anymore, not just college or the first job, but this kind of almost compulsion to perform start to dominate everything including driving.

比如我必须始终行驶在最快速的车道。更重要的是，我总需要规划出前往某地的最优路线。记得刚买特斯拉时，我必须同时查看特斯拉导航、谷歌地图和Waze，比较哪个提供了最佳路线，事后还要复盘验证哪个更准确。

Like I need to be always on the fastest lane. More importantly perhaps, I always need to plot the most efficient route to a place. Remember when I initially got my Tesla, I needed to look at the Tesla maps. I need to look at Google maps. I need to look at Waze so that I can see which map provides the best route and I can look at postmortem see, oh, which indeed, which one was was more accurate.

于是下次我就会针对特定路线使用特定地图，诸如此类。当然，这给我妻子带来巨大压力，对孩子更是如此。这是我最深层次的行为模式之一。

So the next time I will I will use this map for this route, etcetera, etcetera. Of course, I gave a lot of pressure to my wife, enormous amount of pressure to my children. It's a very one of my deepest patterns of behavior.

你17岁就去了哈佛。一个中国穷孩子怎么会把哈佛纳入人生版图？我知道你赢了那些比赛，但你是如何从上海的环境出发，在17岁（如果我没记错年龄的话）就进入哈佛的？

You ended up going to Harvard at 17. How does a poor kid in China end up with Harvard on the map? I understand you won these competitions, but how did it end up that you were able to go from where you were in Shanghai to Harvard at 17, if I'm getting the age correct?

如果我没记错的话，我想我是在18岁生日那天来到美国的。这主要归功于我的父亲。他很早就意识到去美国接受高等教育会打开一个全新的机会世界，所以很早就开始着手准备。那时候去美国读博士已经比较为人所知了。

I think I came to The US on my eighteenth birthday, if I remember right. This is largely thanks to my father. He saw it early that going to America for higher education will open up entirely different world of opportunities. So he started working on that very early. And back then going to America for PhDs were relatively known.

很多人去是因为可以当研究助理或教学助理，这样你实际上是有报酬来学习的。但本科阶段没有这样的机会，所以你需要全额奖学金。之所以必须是全额，是因为那时候中国根本没人能负担得起美国的本科教育。记得80年代中国经济刚开放时，先富起来的人被称为'万元户'。

Quite a lot people go because you get, you know, research assistants or teaching assistants so that you actually get paid to study. But for college, there were no such things. So you needed a full scholarship. The reason it needs to be full is nobody in China back then could remotely afford a college education in The US. Remember, you know, when in the 1980s, when the China economy initially opened up, people who got rich first were called which means people who have 10,000 RMB.

那在当时被认为是非常富有的。不像我们现在用百万富翁或亿万富翁这样的称呼，那时候一万元人民币是件了不得的事。实际上我们开始申请大学时，连35或50美元的申请费都负担不起，不得不向学校申请免除申请费。

That's considered to be very rich. You don't get a special name. So like millionaires or billionaires that we use now. 10,000 RMB is a big, big deal. So actually, when we started applying for colleges, we couldn't even afford the application fees, which is like $35 or $50 We actually had to get waivers of application fees from these colleges.

多亏了他，我在初中时就申请了20所美国大学，被其中多所录取，包括哈佛在内的几所学校给了我全额奖学金，于是我就去了。

Really thanks to him, I applied to 20 also colleges in The US when I was in junior high school and got into a bunch of them. And a number of them gave me a full scholarship including Harvard and off I went.

你什么时候开始学英语的？

When did you start studying English?

中国的中学教育一直把英语作为核心课程。我们在初高中确实学过英语，不过教学质量不太好，因为大多数英语老师——不，实际上他们中没人出过国，口音也很糟糕。但我们学了语法那些东西。我原以为自己的阅读能力还行，不过现在要收回这句话。

Chinese middle school and high school education have always emphasized English as a part of core curriculum. So we did study English in middle school and high school. Now the teaching quality wasn't very good because most of those English teachers never no, actually not all of them, none of them have ever been overseas and their accents are, you know, atrocious. But you know, we would learn grammar and all those things. So I think I was able to probably read actually no, I take it back.

我的英语其实没那么好。不过后来我在校外上了些英语补习班，这对我帮助很大。

Don't think my English was that good. But then I got some cramming school outside of the regular school to learn English and that helped me.

补习班，可能有人不太了解这是什么，就像是夜校那样的额外课程，你去那里是为了加强某一科目的能力？

So the cram school, just for people who who might not know what that is, that's like a an additional night school that you would go to to strengthen your abilities in a certain subject?

是的，没错。我记得我的英语一直让我很不确定、缺乏自信，直到某个夏天，大概是初中时，我花了差不多半个夏天听几盘磁带。那是一本叫《新概念英语》的教材，应该是英国的。我反复听那些磁带，直到几乎背下来。我不仅能复述课文内容，连版权声明、朗读者介绍书籍的部分都记得，比如牛津剑桥出版社之类的。

Yes, that is correct. I remember my English was always definitely I was very unsure and not confident about my English until one summer, maybe in somewhere in middle school, where I spent probably half the summer listening to a few tapes. It was a textbook called New Concept English, I think from The UK. And I listened to those tapes over and over again until I pretty much memorized it. I could even talk not just the texts of the lessons, but also including the copyright, everything that the speaker was introducing the book and everything, you know, Oxford Cambridge press or whatever.

那些内容我听了无数遍。我记得是用一台录音机，其实不算小，大概有笔记本电脑大小，但厚好几倍，带着塑料按钮。整个夏天我可能按了上千次倒带、播放、倒带、播放。基本上我能模仿磁带里的声音，不刻意去记就能背下他说的绝大部分内容。

All of those things I listened to so many times. I remember it a little recorder. It was actually not a little, was like probably the size of a laptop, kind of a, but several times thicker, a recorder with these plastic buttons. And I'll click rewind, play, rewind, play, rewind, play probably thousands of times during the summer. And I basically was able to mimic the speaker on the tape and memorized without trying to most of the things that he was saying.

那个夏天之后，英语就不再是我的难题，反而成了我游刃有余的东西。

And then after that summer, my English just ceased to be a problem, became something I became very comfortable with.

是什么促使你把那些磁带听了上千遍？是因为即将去美国上大学，还是有其他原因？

What prompted you to listen to those tapes thousands of times? Was it the pending trip to The US for college or was it something else?

不是的。那时候去美国甚至还没列入人生规划。我想，部分原因是我骨子里就想做到极致。其实这是很重要的领悟，最近几个月我才开始意识到。

No. I don't know why. This is way before even going to The US appeared on the road map. There's a part of me that just really wanted to be accident, I think. And this is actually a very important learning as I actually in the past few months, you know, I'm starting to realize.

让我解释下，这确实很关键。我有种行为模式，要求自己在每种情况下都追求完美，这其实是个负担。而我潜意识里不愿放弃这种模式，是因为害怕一旦不遵循这种严格标准，我就会失去优秀特质——所有让我成功的东西都会消失，然后变得懒惰等等。

Because let me explain this is actually important. I have this sort of pattern of behavior that require me to be sort of want to be perfect in every situation, which is a burden. And one of the reasons that I was unwilling, whether it's consciously or subconsciously to let that pattern behavior go is that I'm afraid that if I don't follow this strict pattern, I will cease to be excellent. All the things that made me great or successful will disappear. And then I become lazy and all that.

我想在潜意识里，我一直抓着这个模式不放，是害怕那种情况发生。但当我真正连接时——就像我刚才说的——其实没人逼我这么做。我这么做是因为我内心有种天生的驱动力，想把经手的事情做好。某种程度上，我越是接触这种内在驱动力，就越明白这不是病态的强迫症——有些场合适用，有些场合则不适用。

And I think subconsciously, I was holding on to the pattern for fear of that happening. But as I connect, however, now with I was just talking about is I actually, you know, nobody forced me to do this. And I did it because there's an innate drive in me, I think to do a good job by things I touch. And at the more in some ways I get in touch with that innate drive, but it's not a pathological compulsion. Like in certain situations it's appropriate and certain situations not appropriate.

这是我工具箱里的好工具，是我的优秀特质。但如果我能更确信这是与生俱来的内在品质，我就越愿意放下那个旧模式。这样讲得通吗？

It's a great tool in my toolbox. It's a great trait of mine. But if I actually have more confidence, this is within me, that's my inner quality, then the more willing I'll be letting this other pattern go. Does it make sense?

是的，完全说得通。我认为如果这是你的默认模式，而你没意识到自己还有其他工具可用，缺乏这种自我觉察时，你就像梦游般举着锤子满世界找钉子。但随着你更了解自己的能力，也认识到错误使用工具的副作用——无论对己对人——你就会发展出不同的策略。对吧？这样你也能对所有人——包括特定情境下的自己——更宽容些。

Yeah, it does make sense. I think that if it is your default and you are not aware that you have a toolkit with other tools, and if you don't have that developed self awareness, then you're sort of sleepwalking through parts of your life with a hammer looking for nails. But as you develop more awareness of your capacities and also the side effects of misapplying the tool, both for yourself and other people, then you develop different strategies. Right? And you can also be easier on everyone, including yourself in certain places.

就像你说的，有时候确实需要拿出重武器集中攻坚，但没必要——比如非要研究17张地图就为了省下12秒星巴克路程——懂我意思吧？

And like you said, there are times when it makes sense to pull out the big guns and focus on something intensely, but it doesn't have to be, you know, figuring out how to shave twelve seconds off your trip to Starbucks by looking at 17 maps necessarily. Right?

甚至可以更进一步说：如果我发展出这种特殊的应对机制、行为模式或职业习惯，是因为我天生就有这种倾向——就像人们应对创伤时的反应。我用'创伤'这个词，不仅指一次性重大事件（比如虐待），也包括长期反复暴露在某种无法满足需求的刺激中。我曾反复置身特定情境，但和我姐姐的反应却因天性不同而迥异。所以我发展出这种无法自控的完美主义模式并不奇怪——这本是良性的天生倾向，却被异化扭曲用来应对极端困境。

You can even go one step further that if the reason I had developed this particular coping mechanism or pattern behavior or professionalism is because I have an innate inclination because people react to trauma. I use the word trauma, not just referring not to just say one time big event kind of a trauma like abuse, but trauma could happen over a long period of time of a repeat exposure to certain stimulus that does not meet one's need. And I was exposed to a particular situation repeatedly. But however, my sister and I responded to that same situation differently because of our different innate inclinations. And so it's not a surprise that I developed this pattern of perfectionism that's always there that I couldn't control because I had an innate inclination that's good but then it became almost bastardized or misused to cope with a situation that was very, very difficult.

你指的是整体家庭氛围这个情境吗？

And the situation was the just overall household dynamic? Is that the situation you're referring to?

这个话题我有点难以启齿。

It's difficult for me to talk about a bit here.

我们之后随时可以删减内容。

And we can always cut things out later.

部分原因是这些是记忆，但我也想确保如果我的父母有朝一日听到这些，他们会知道我深爱着他们，他们为我付出了很多。但有些基本需求确实没有得到满足，其中一个情况是我父亲非常易怒、苛刻，控制欲极强到极端程度。他还实施体罚。所以我感到恐惧——我想我当时害怕到魂飞魄散。

Partly it's because it's memory but also I want to make sure that if my parents ever hear this they know that I love them dearly and they've done so much good for me. But there are certain things that simply one needs were not met and one of the situations was my father was angry and very demanding and very controlling to the extreme. And also he was physically punishing as well. So I was scared. I was scared, I think to the end of my wits, I think.

这种愤怒有时会在完全无法预料的时刻爆发。因此我觉得自己必须时刻保持警觉，不断确保自己表现完美。家庭关系中的另一个问题是：几乎没人关注我的感受。在很长一段时间里，我把情绪视为情感进化产生的废物，就像阑尾一样。理性与分析才是我的生存之道，情绪只会碍事，毫无用处。

And some of this rage becomes at very unpredictable times. So I think I was constantly vigilant and constantly making sure I was performing. And also another thing in the family dynamics was that there was very little attention paid to how I feel. So the feelings were for the longest time, I treated feelings like an emotional evolutionary waste product, like an appendix. Rationality and analytics is what I'm built for and emotions just gets in the way and it serves no purpose.

所以我认为，在很长一段时间里——大概直到我第一次...

So I think for a long time until I was probably my maybe the first time

遇见我妻子时，我

I met with my wife, I

觉得自己几乎没有情绪。我甚至不明白那到底是什么。

don't think I had many feelings. I didn't know what they were really.

关于这点我想说，我们初次相遇时能产生共鸣并长谈，部分原因就在于这种共同经历：当你认为情绪是负累时，就会通过隔离或解离的方式，专注于那些你认为可控且可应用的事物——比如理性，让自己尽可能像瓦肯人一样。但随着时间的推移（这个话题我们后续肯定会深入），那些被你认为已妥善封存的东西，总会从缝隙中渗漏出来。确实如此。我想稍微回到你的时间线叙述，我们会穿插探讨这些话题的多个方面。

Just to speak to that because I think, you know, part of the reason we bonded and ended up speaking for as long a time as we did when we first met is that that's, I think, some shared experience that we have in the sense that when you think emotions are a liability, you compartmentalize or dissociate in such a way to focus on the things that you feel you can control and apply, like rationality, right, and become as as Vulcan like as possible. But over time, and I'm sure we'll talk more about this, things have a tendency to squeeze out the corners even if you think you've put them in a nice tidy little little box. Absolutely. Yeah. I would love to come back to your chronology just a little bit, and we're gonna dip in and out of a lot of these topics.

当你第一次来到美国时，还记得有什么特别让你惊讶的事情吗？无论是关于美国的整体印象，还是你遇到的学生，任何方面都可以。有什么让你觉得难以置信、困惑不解的事情吗？

When you first came to The United States, do you remember what things or any things that were very surprising to you, whether about The US in general, about the students you ran into, anything at all? Did anything jump out at you as incredible, unbelievable, confusing?

实在有太多事情数不清了。我来自1991年的一个国家，那时大多数人家里甚至没有电话。每次要给家里打电话，我都得提前通过普通邮件或上次通话时与父母约好时间，让他们去有电话的邻居家守着等我的来电。但到了美国后，我记得——或许几个小片段能说明问题——当我途经洛杉矶转机去波士顿时，我需要打电话报平安。顺便说，现在很难想象我大女儿上大学时，父母送孩子去学校时可能再也见不到他的心情。

There was too many things to count, really. I came from a country back then in 1991 where people didn't even have phones in their homes, most people. And when I had to call home, I needed to make sure I arrange a time with my parents over regular mail or over the previous phone call so that they can go to my neighbor who had a phone and they will wait by the phone when I call. But when I got to The US, I remember, I would just, know, some, I guess vignettes might be illustrative was that when I landed in Los Angeles on my way to Boston, I needed to call home to make sure that they know that I'm okay. And by the way, just to, it's hard for me to imagine that my oldest daughter's off to college to imagine parents sending their kids off to college knowing that they may never see him again.

对他们来说，送我去美国不亚于一场生离死别。说真的，他们可能再也见不到我了。他们展现的勇气和无私令人震撼。在洛杉矶机场用公共电话打回家时——那可能是我第一次见到投币电话——我记得往电话里塞了好几美元的硬币，但电话始终无法接通。

For them going to America, it was it's not just getting in a fight. Seriously, they may never see me again. The courage they displayed and the selflessness they displayed was breathtaking. When I called home from Los Angeles Airport, I was using a public phone, which is the first time I've ever probably seen a public phone. I remember having putting maybe several dollars worth of quarters into the phone, but the phone refused to connect.

我又投了更多硬币，还是打不通。最后我气急败坏地换了旁边的电话，那台投币电话能用，我投了几美元接通后报了平安。正通话时，有个清洁女工过来擦拭电话机，她把手指伸进退币口——我那时都不知道有这个设计——从我刚才用过的那台电话里掏出了一大把硬币，估计有十美元那么多。她开心极了。

And I put more money in, it was still refused to connect. So eventually I became frustrated and I switched to the phone next to it and that payphone worked, I put in a couple of dollars or something like that and connected and told them I was okay. And as I was on the phone, a cleaning lady came by, was cleaning all the phones and she puts her finger into the coin return slot, which I didn't even know existed by the way, until she put her finger in into the phone that I was previously using. And she got out a whole handful of quarters, probably, you know, dollars 10 worth of quarters. And she was so happy.

她看着我笑了。你知道吗，我到波士顿后过了好几天甚至更久才突然反应过来：那些硬币其实是我的。那台电话可能是满了或故障了，我投进去的硬币都直接掉进了退币槽，而我当时完全没意识到。

She looked at me and smiled. And, you know, it took me several days, maybe weeks after I arrived in Boston to realize, actually those quarters were mine. I think the phone must have been full or something malfunctioning. So all the quarters I put into the previous phone basically went straight down into the return slot, but I didn't realize it. And it took me several days at least, probably longer to say, oh, one day it hit me.

哦，原来是这样。她拿走了我的钱。

Oh, that's what happened. She was taking my money.

你当时是什么感受？能否也描述一下这段经历在你后续人生旅程中的意义？我认为这对我们接下来要探讨的其他话题是重要的情感纽带。

What did that feel like to you? And, if if you could describe also as you've continued on your journey, what that was like. I think this is important connective tissue for some of the rest of the avenues that we'll be exploring.

我刚到哈佛时，全部心思都放在成绩上。我必须成为第一名。所以我记得自己尽可能多地选课，正常课程量是四门。

When I got to Harvard, my focus was on grades. I needed to be number one. So I remember taking as many classes I could. The normal course load, there was four courses.

你来美国前接触过多少非华人？见过很多外国人吗？

How many non Chinese had you met before you got to The US? Had you met many non Chinese?

我想真正相处过的非华人只有一个，是《纽约时报》专栏作家纪思道。最近他刚宣布要竞选俄勒冈州州长。但当时他作为记者住在北京，正在为哈佛大学进行面试。

I think I met, really spent time with, was one non Chinese person. And his name was Nicholas Kristof as a New York Times columnist, and now I think he just announced he's running for the governor of Oregon. But back then, he was living in Beijing as a journalist, and he was interviewing for Harvard.

他是负责面试的校友？明白了。

He was an alumnus who was interviewing folks? Yes. Got it.

我记得自己第一次独自坐火车从上海到北京就是为了见他接受面试。所以他应该是我接触过的唯一非华人。可能还见过一个出生在美国回中国探亲的表亲。但就白人而言，他确实是第一个。

And I think I took the first train ride alone to go to from Shanghai to Beijing to to meet him, to be interviewed. So I think he was the only non Chinese person that I met. I might have met a cousin who was born in America who came back to China. But as far as a white person who was concerned, Yeah. I think he was the first one.

所以当你到了哈佛就会惊呼：天啊这么多老外！然后突然意识到：等等，我才是老外。

So then you get to Harvard and you're like, oh my god. There's so many Lao Wai. And then you're like, wait a second. I'm Lao Wai.

是啊，我当时太懵懂了，根本没想过这些。就只顾着埋头学习，一心只想着读书。

Yeah. I think I I was so out of it. I was so unsophisticated that none of these thoughts much occurred to me. I was just so focused on studying. I just needed to study.

你当时就像戴着眼罩一样。对，来自世界各地的人啊什么的，都是干扰。没错。

You just had blinders on. You're like Yeah. People from all over the world, whatever. Distraction. Yeah.

专注于成绩。

Focus on grades.

我需要上的第一门课是Expose，这是一门写作课，据说是为大学入学新生开设的地狱级难度写作课。我表现得非常好，第一篇论文就被当作范文在全班朗读——这相当惊人，因为在那之前我从未用英语写过论文（申请文书不算）。第一篇论文得了A，但最终这门课的总成绩是A-，对此我非常不满。

One of the first classes I need to take was expose, which is a writing class, which is supposed to be a hellish, difficult writing class for college entrance, a freshman. And I did very well. I think my first essay was read to the class, which is pretty amazing because I'd never written an English essay before until that point, not counting the application essays. The first essay got an A, but eventually my whole grade for the course was A minus. And I was very unhappy about that.

我记得我打电话给教授抱怨，质问他怎么能给我A-。

I remember I remember calling the professor and complaining that how he could give me a a minus.

他怎么敢？那个教授怎么敢这样？

How dare? How dare that professor?

然后他显得非常困惑。

And and he was very confused.

他说：‘A-已经很好了，不是吗？’

He said, a minus is really good, aren't it?

你写得这么好真是令人惊叹，巴拉巴拉巴拉。但我说，好吧，现在就放出来。为什么我反而被扣分？那时候我太在意成绩了。

It's amazing that you're writing so well, blah blah blah blah blah. But I said, well, put it right now. Why not I'm getting a minus? I was so focused on grades at the time.

先快速感谢一下我们的赞助商之一，节目马上回来。本集由Athletic Greens赞助。我经常被问到如果只能选择一种补充剂会选什么，答案总是Athletic Greens的g1产品。无论你是在旅行、忙碌，还是不确定饮食是否均衡，它都能全面补充营养。

Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors, and we'll be right back to the show. This episode is brought to you by Athletic Greens. I get asked all the time what I would take if I could only take one supplement. The answer is invariably a g one by Athletic Greens. If you're traveling, if you're just busy, if you're not sure if your meals are where they should be, it covers your bases.

这款产品含有约75种维生素、矿物质和全食物来源成分，市面上很难找到营养密度更高的配方。它包含复合维生素、复合矿物质绿色配方、益生菌和益生元促进肠道健康与免疫力、消化酶以及适应原。现在Athletic Greens为我的听众提供特别优惠：首次订阅即可获赠维生素D补充剂和五份旅行装。很多人其实都缺乏维生素D。

With approximately 75 vitamins, minerals, and whole food source ingredients, you'll be hard pressed to find a more nutrient dense formula on the market. It has a multivitamin, multimineral greens complex, probiotics and prebiotics for gut health and immunity formula, digestive enzymes, and adaptogens. You get the idea. Right now, Athletic Greens is giving my audience a special offer on top of their all in one formula, which is a free vitamin d supplement and five free travel packs with your first subscription purchase. Many of us are deficient in vitamin d.

我自己就深有体会——维生素D通常需要通过阳光照射在体内合成。所以在日常中添加维生素D补充剂对增强免疫力很有帮助。访问athleticgreens.com/tim，支持你的免疫力、肠道健康和精力，订阅即可获得长达一年的维生素D供应和五份免费旅行装。再次提醒：athleticgreens.com/tim。

I found that true for myself, which is usually produced in our bodies from sun exposure. So adding a vitamin d supplement to your daily routine is a great option for additional immune support. Support your immunity, gut health, and energy by visiting athleticgreens.com/tim. You'll receive up to a year's supply of vitamin d and five free travel packs with your subscription. Again, that's athleticgreens.com/tim.

我想快进到当下，经常用这种方式承前启后——因为我想为中国听众在脑海中勾勒更立体的图景。人们很容易标签化看待异国群体，比如'所有阿富汗人都X，中国人都是Y，美国人全是Z'。我也希望能展现中国人的真实面貌，因为中国并不像西方世界想象的那样从上到下、从东到西完全一致。中国地域差异很大，正在发生许多变化。而最近几年你正在将MDMA辅助心理治疗引入中国，请谈谈为什么这样做及其重要性？

I want to flash forward, and I'll often bookend things like this because I want to, in part, flesh out the picture in the mind's eye for listeners of China because it's very easy to look at the other, whatever the other is, and be like, well, all people in Afghanistan x, the Chinese y, the Americans z. And I'd like to sort of humanize a bit also Chinese people because China is not as much as people might think so in the Western world, it's not uniform top to bottom, east to west. There's a lot that happens in China, many differences regionally, and so on. But you're helping so present day in the last few years, you're helping bring MDMA assisted psychotherapy to China. I would like to hear you describe why you are doing that and why you think it's important, why it applies.

这个问题也将自然过渡到几个不同话题，之后我们会回到你的履历，聊聊199年在新加坡政府的BCG咨询项目。但现在首先请问：为什么选择在中国推行MDMA辅助心理治疗？

And this will just be a way of also edging into a couple of different topics, and then we're gonna go back to your bio and begin to talk about BCG and 1999 and consulting projects for the Singaporean government. We're gonna go there. But first, I want to just ask, why MDMA assisted psychotherapy in China or to China?

我们正在努力推进这项工作，虽然不确定进展如何。但这非常值得——因为某种程度上，无论肤色或社会经济地位，各地人们都有着相似的渴望，也经历着相似的创伤。这些年来我接触过许多同胞，特别是成功人士，当他们分享那些从未告诉他人的故事时，我发现所有人内心都深藏着伤痛。有些伤痛显而易见，有些则深埋心底甚至成为潜意识。

We're trying to work on it though, and I'm not sure how much progress we are making. But it's very worthwhile effort for us because in some ways, people everywhere share most of the similar aspirations and regardless of their color or socioeconomic status go through very similar traumas in some ways. As I got to know many of my fellow countrymen over the years, particularly the successful ones actually, as they share some of the stories about themselves that they never told other people, that we all have so much hurt inside of us and everywhere. And these hurts could be some could be very easily felt. Some of it is deeply buried and maybe even subconscious.

许多人，包括我自己在内，都形成了某种自我认知，总觉得自身存在缺陷，认为自己毫无价值，除了所做的事外一无是处。这种痛苦的程度令人震惊——我用的是佛教意义上的'苦'这个词，尽管我并非佛教徒。因此，像MDMA这类具有巨大治愈潜力的迷幻药物，我热切希望能将其推广到全世界，包括中国，帮助人们疗愈。

So many people and I would say so many of us because I'm certainly one of them develop certain views of oneself that we somehow think there were something wrong with us, that we are not worthwhile, that we have no value other than the things we do. And it's just breathtaking how much suffering there is. And I use the word suffering in the Buddhist sense, even though I'm not a Buddhist. And so MDMA and other psychedelic medicine that have huge healing potential. I feel really passionate about bringing that to the world, helping that.

当然我并非主导者，只是希望在力所能及之处贡献力量。特别是中国——这个国家在二战后经历了极其艰难的时期，包括被称为'文化大革命'的阶段，以及之前持续约十五年的'反右运动'，这些运动给整整一代人造成了深刻的心理创伤。

And certainly I'm not the main person doing it. I like to contribute where I can to bring that to the world, including China. And in China in particular, China went through some very tough periods after World War II. There's a period called the Cultural Revolution and prior to that there's a rightist movement, anti rightist movement that lasted more or less for fifteen years that really traumatized an entire generation of people.

能否具体描述那种创伤的表现？因为很多听众可能无法想象那些时期究竟发生了什么。

Can you speak to what that trauma looked like? Because I think a lot of folks listening will not have they won't be able to conjure any sort of images of what happened during either of those.

我可以从个人经历说起。我的祖父母家境相对优渥，文革期间红卫兵会挨家挨户搜查贵重物品，你必须全部上交——每一件财物。

I could start with something personal. In my family, my grandparents' family were relatively well-to-do. So when the Cultural Revolution came, bread guards will come from house to house to search for all the valuables. You have to give them up. Every single thing you have.

如果红色政权想要，你就必须交出。我成长过程中听过这样的故事：有人把财宝埋在后院，结果红卫兵会往院子里泼水，根据水渗入的位置挖出藏宝，不仅没收财物，还会折磨甚至处决藏宝者，或将其监禁。那是种笼罩在人们头上的恐怖统治。

If the red want it, you have to give it. And there are stories of people as I was growing up heard that, you know, some people bury some treasures in the backyard because they don't want to give it up. And then vanguard would come and pour water on the backyard and when the water sinks in a particular place, they would dig it up. You know, obviously they will confiscate that and probably either torture or kill the people who try to bury it, imprison the people who try to bury it. So it was this incredible terror that happened to people.

此外还有种竞赛式的行为——人们争相展示自己对无产阶级意识形态的纯粹忠诚，那种...该怎么说...

And then there was also this race to show your purity, your ideological purity toward these sort of proletarian what do you call it? Proletarian? What's the

无产阶级？

right Proletariats?

是的。无产阶级革命。所以你必须喊对口号，而且每次都要这么做。

Yeah. Proletariat revolution. So you have to chant the right things and you have to in every turn

没错。无产阶级，工人阶级的人们，要集体看待这个问题。

Yeah. The proletariat, the workers of the working class people, regard it collectively.

对。就是这样。你必须喊口号。你必须遵循毛主席的一切指示。半夜里，你可能被迫起床，还不能抱怨。

Yes. That's right. You have to chant. You have to follow all the dictates from Chairman Mao. In the middle of the night, you might be forced to get up and you cannot complain.

如果你抱怨，就是对党不忠诚。凌晨两点上街游行，扯着嗓子喊口号。有个真实的故事，我父亲曾试图帮助一个好人，那位是个好老师，却被指责对党不忠诚。他为这人说话，结果自己也惹上麻烦。后来让他既沮丧又愤怒的是，这人反而编造关于他的故事。非但没有感激和帮助他，这个受害者反而编造关于我父亲的谎言来保护自己。

If you complain, you are disloyal to go on the streets at 02:00 in the morning to march and to shout slogans at the top of your lungs. There's a real story that my father actually tried to help somebody, somebody who's a good teacher, was denounced of being not being loyal to the party. And he spoke up for this person and then he got in trouble for it. And later on, much to his dismay and disappointment and anger, this person made up stories about him. Instead of being grateful and helping him, the other victim actually made up stories about my father to protect himself.

因为你揭发别人越多，透露别人的秘密越多，你就越安全。这是在展示你的忠诚。所以在文革期间，许多孩子被迫告发自己的父母。你可以想象这造成了多么严重的人际间不信任。太可怕了。

Because the more you denounce other people and tell secrets about other people, the more protected you are. You show your loyalty. So during Cultural Revolution, many children were forced to tell on their parents. And that created, you can imagine the amount of distrust that creates amongst everybody. Terrible.

他们非常害怕。我父亲被批斗过好几次，因为他出身富裕家庭，而且我想还因为他帮助过那个人。他被押上高台，面对数百人的批斗，人们朝他吐口水。他要戴着沉重的高帽子，在数百人面前站好几个小时，忍受他们的辱骂和喊叫。他还算...你知道，不是遭遇最惨的。

They were so scared. And my father was put on for a few times because he came from a rich family and also because I think he helped this other person. He was put on on a platform in front of hundreds of people denouncing him, spitting on him. He would wear tall hats that could be very heavy for hours while standing in front of hundreds of people denouncing, shouting things at him. He wasn't, you know, didn't get the worst deal.

有些人几乎被私刑处死。成千上万，也许是数十万，甚至数百万人被下放到农村进行体力劳动，改造思想。这些都是我后来听说的二手信息，因为当时我太小了，才几岁大。

There were people who got more or less lynched. Thousands, maybe tens of thousands of people, maybe hundreds of thousands of people and millions. I think it was millions of people were sent to the countryside to do manual labor to reform their thinking. It was really this is all from secondhand because I was too young. I was only a few years.

部分事件发生在我出生前，但有些发生时我可能才一两岁。所以这些都是间接了解到的。有太多故事，这段历史很少被讨论，但可以说整个国家都患有创伤后应激障碍。很难想象经历这些。当然，肉体上的创伤和恐惧感都是非常真实的。

Some of it happened before I was born but other times I was maybe one or two years old. So this is all through secondhand. But there's so many stories and this is a period of time that is not often discussed but I would say this whole country has PTSD. It's very hard to imagine going through that. I mean, of course can be very traumatic in a physical form of course and very scary.

但当一个国家经历这种内部动荡，人们日复一日地互相背叛时，很难想象这对一代人的社会影响有多深远。

But when a country goes through this kind of internal convulsion where people are betraying each other left and right every single day, it's hard to imagine the impact on the society of a generation of people.

感谢分享这些背景。我认为从多个层面来看，让人们理解这些都非常重要——这里说的'人们'可能特指那些没有亲历过的人。有部电影可能会让观众感兴趣，而且

Thank you for sharing all that context. I think this is really important on a number of levels, I think, for people to gain an appreciation of. And I say people, probably referring to those who haven't had firsthand experience. One film that may be interesting to folks, and

我不知道

I don't know

你是否看过。我很好奇你的观感。有位中国导演叫（我不知道他名字的声调）姜文，他拍了部电影《活着》，原本在大陆被禁映，后来据说解禁了。影片通过工人阶级的视角展现了中国现代史上多个艰难时期，从四十年代末的国共内战到文化大革命。张艺谋的摄影风格非常优美。

if you've seen it. I'd be curious to hear if you have, but there is a Chinese filmmaker named I don't know the tones on his name, but Jiangy Mo, y I m o u. And he made a film called To Live, which is, I guess, Huazia, that was initially denied theatrical release in Mainland China, but later, I believe, was made available. And it covers the working class experience through a number of very difficult periods of modern Chinese history from the Chinese Civil War in the late nineteen forties to the Cultural Revolution. And Zhang Yimou has a beautiful cinematography style.

通常色彩饱和度很高，主演包括巩俐等多次与他合作的演员。

It's usually very color saturated and stars a number of folks who have appeared in many of his films like Gong Li

嗯。

Mhmm.

96年我在中国时暗恋过谁。天啊。不过对于想看这部电影的人来说，《活着》是1994年拍摄或上映的，大家可以试着找找看。我想回到你在美国的经历。我们快进到这里开始讲，你告诉我这是不是合适的切入点。

Who I had a crush on when I was in China in '96. Oh my god. But that's also an option for people who might want to this film To Live was made, or released in 1994 so people can, can try to find it. I'd love to come back to your experience in The US. So we flash then to say, and you tell me if this is the right place to start.

也许之前发生的一些事值得注意。但看起来你的第一份正式工作是在BCG，你的职责是为这些大公司提供建议，我们付给你们巨额报酬。后来不知是否在BCG期间，你为新加坡政府做过咨询项目。可以说那是你重要的转折点和里程碑吗？

Maybe there are things that happened beforehand that are worth noting. But it seems like you have your first job, sort of real official job, BCG, where you're you're giving, your mandate is to give advice to these these big companies, and we're paying you guys a fortune. And, at some point, I don't know if it was BCG, but you had a consulting project for the Singaporean government. Is it fair to say that was a an important turning point and milestone for you?

没错，那绝对是个转折点。我人生中做过几个重大决定都很成功。这些决定的主线都是让我更接近真实的自我，而非环境塑造的样子。其中一个决定是创业，灵感来自商学院末期和几个同学做的实地研究，我们研究了当时成功的互联网模式有哪些能适应亚洲市场。

Yeah. That was definitely a turning point. I think I made a a few big decisions in my life that all worked out. And there was a general theme of getting closer to who I really am versus what I was made to be by the environment. But one decision was starting a company and that was inspired by a field study that I did with a couple other students at the end of my business school, studying what internet models worked at the time and which of those can be successfully adapted to Asia.

那是1999年，美国互联网泡沫的顶峰时期。我们发现大多数商业模式都不靠谱，炒作和泡沫很多，但eBay模式确实了不起。于是我查了查中国是否有人在做，1998年时答案是没有。所以我说，好吧，毕业后我要回国创办中国版的在线拍卖网站。

And this is in 1999, really at the height of the internet boom in The US. And what we discovered was that most business models didn't make a lot of sense. There was a lot of hype, a lot of bubble, but we thought the eBay business model really is incredible. So I looked into whether anybody was doing that in China and the answer was no in 1998. So I said, oh, okay, when I graduate, I will go back to start the online auction website in China.

这对我而言是巨大跨越，因为在此之前我一直是个循规蹈矩的人。我是个书呆子，连工作都是顶尖老牌公司。一切都按部就班，非常稳妥。

And that was a huge step for me because up to that point, I was this steady person. I was a mass geek. And then even when I got a job, it was from one of the most established and prominent firms. It's all very understandable. It's like a very steady thing.

而且我还给自己留了退路——当初接受BCG工作时，我其实获得了物理博士项目的延期入学资格。所以我始终有保底选择，非常安全稳妥。但1999年放弃美国绿卡回国创业，连商业模式都无法向父母解释清楚。

And also, I also left my backdoor open on my There's a way to back because I actually got a deferral in a PhD program in physics when I initially took my job at BCG. So I had a backup. It was always very safe and steady. But going back to China, not getting a green card from The US in 1999 to start a company whose business model I couldn't even explain to my parents.

我觉得直到今天我都被说服了

I think I'm convinced to this day

他们根本不知道那是什么业务。我甚至不卖东西。我那时都不卖东西。我在搭建一个让别人卖东西的平台。我连店铺都没有，更别说部门了。

they do not know what that business is. I don't even sell things. I didn't even sell things. I was building a platform for other people to sell things. I didn't have a store even, no department.

这简直令人难以置信，那个平台真正的意义是什么。所以那是个非常、非常重要的步骤。尽管我上过商学院，但我当时完全不知道自己在做什么。

It's like, it's mind boggling what that platform really means. So that was a big, big step. And I didn't know what the hell I was doing whatsoever despite business school.

我想问几个问题。你父母对此有何反应？

So I wanna, well, ask a couple things. So how did your parents respond to this?

说实话，他们什么都没说。1999年我回到中国时还住在家里。我在另一间公寓里有个所谓的办公室，其实那既不是办公室也不是公寓楼。我根本找不到人跟我一起工作。

Well, to their credit, they didn't say a thing. I was living at home when I got back to China in 1999. I had an office in another apartment really. It's not an office, it's not an apartment building. I couldn't find anybody to work with me really.

除了高中同学，我那时真的不认识什么人，因为我已经在国外待了大概八年。所以我唯一认识的就是高中同学。我招的第一个人就是我的一个高中同学，他当时在家炒股。反正他也没什么可失去的，就加入了我。要知道，我连程序员都找不到。

I didn't know anybody really other than my high school classmates because I was out of the country for what, by then eight years. So the only people I knew were my high school classmates. So the only the first my first recruit was a high school classmate of mine who was trading stock at home. So he didn't have much to lose, so he joined me. You know, I couldn't find even programmers.

那时候建互联网网站根本不算正经事。

Back then building an internet website is not a thing.

确实不算。没错。

It was not a thing. Yes.

1999年在中国。那时候用的都是拨号调制解调器，顺便说一句。当时有些网络接入，但全是拨号上网。现在的孩子们都不知道拨号调制解调器是什么了。而且，我只找到了两名曾在上海电力局工作的兼职程序员。

In 1999 in China. It was all dialer modems back then, by the way. There's some internet access, it was all dialer modems. My kids don't even know what dialer modems are these days. And, yeah, it's the only I have found two part time programmers who used to work for the Shanghai Electricity Bureau.

他们之前从未建过网站。他们是IT维护人员，但懂一些微软ASP编程语言。他们不想辞职。所以他们会先完成电力局的日常工作——政府机关的工作，然后每晚6点到午夜为我们建网站，之后再回去上班。

They never built a website before ever. They were IT maintenance people, but they knew some Microsoft ASP programming language. They didn't want to quit their jobs. And so they will go to their regular bureau jobs, government jobs, and work from 6PM to like midnight every night to build the website. And then they will go back to their regular jobs.

好在他们的本职工作不太忙，白天可以在办公室睡觉。晚上就为我们工作，算是为我工作吧。所以我们基本上有四名员工，三名加我。出乎意料的是，他们两个月就建好了网站。当然，刚上线就崩溃了。

Good thing that the job is not very demanding, so they could sleep during the day in the office. And at night they work for us and work for me, I guess. So we have these basically four employees, three employees and me. Then they built the website after I think two months, surprisingly, just finished the website. Of course, as soon as they launched, they promptly crashed.

这是个漫长的过程...但关键是我父母什么都没说。他们只是说'哦，好吧'。特别要感谢我父亲，他清楚自己不了解这些领域，但他信任我让我自己做决定。

So it was a long But the thing is my parents didn't say anything. They just said, oh, okay. Like really to my father's credit particularly, he knew that he didn't know what he didn't know. And he trusted me to make my own decisions.

我知道这是个诱导性问题——但你是否认为，通过竞赛获奖、进入哈佛这些事，你其实已经为家族带来了荣誉和声望？从你父亲的角度看，你早已通过了他可能设下的所有考验？或者你觉得这不是影响因素？

Do you know this is a leading question, of course, but is there any element of you already having sort of brought honor and reputation to the family through winning the competitions, going to Harvard, where effectively you had already passed any tests that you might need to pass in your father's from his perspective or or is that do you think that's not a factor?

他确实为我感到无比自豪。在中国赢得那么多数学竞赛是件大事。当我最初考虑出国留学时，甚至接到上海政府的电话，希望我高三不要走，因为那年我有机会参加国际数学奥林匹克竞赛，为国家夺取金牌之类的荣誉。这能为上海政府争光。所以他为此非常骄傲。

I think he was incredibly proud of me for sure. Winning so many mass competitions in China was a big deal. When I initially was thinking of going overseas to study, we even got a call from the Shanghai government saying that, oh, we do wish that I do not leave for my senior year because in senior year I have the chance to participate potentially in the Mass Olympiads and win gold medals or whatnot for the country. And I will bring honor to the Shanghai government and all that. So he was very proud of me from that.

当然，能上哈佛也是大事。我记得当时我和另一个上海学生是最早获得全额奖学金直接从中国赴美留学的案例。那是第一年，之后每年都有两三个学生获得全奖。所以他感到非常非常自豪。

And of course, going to Harvard is a big deal. Was one of the earliest, I think another student from Shanghai and myself got the whole foreign student saying directly coming from China started. That was the first year. I think after that every year was two, three students getting full scholarships. So he was very, very proud.

虽然设身处地为他着想，想象自己的孩子放弃所有这一切——甚至包括在美国的绿卡，这在大多数人眼中是难以置信、珍贵且难以获得的东西——回到中国投身初创企业，创业在当时中国几乎是闻所未闻的。要知道，那时候如果你是个创业者，通常可能就是开个小餐馆，真正创办公司的人很少。所以他们对我没有任何质疑或反对，我觉得这依然意义重大。

Though putting myself in his shoes, like imagining my own kid giving all of that up, even including a green card in The US, which is this incredible, valuable, you know, in attainable thing most people view. To go back to China to start something in the startup thing, entrepreneurship is unheard of in China, more or less in China back then. You know, if you're an entrepreneur, you're usually, I guess you start a food store. You don't start companies really back then. So for them not to say anything to me, to question whatnot, I think it's still a big deal.

确实，至今仍意义非凡。

Really Still a big deal.

是的，是的。我为此真的非常感激他们。

Yeah. Yeah. I really, really value them for it.

那我们来回顾一下你当时的经历吧，考虑到所有因素，这确实显得相当疯狂。BCG能提供丰厚薪酬，咨询行业收入本就不菲，你刚从哈佛毕业，而父母此前月收入只有10到20美元。

So let's take a look into your experience during that time because it does it does seem pretty wild given all of the factors. BCG can pay well. Consulting certainly can pay well. You're coming out of Harvard. Your parents previously making 10 to $20 a month.

突然间，你不仅能获得绿卡，还能选择各种高薪工作——天知道能赚多少，我不清楚具体数字，但可能是5万、10万甚至更多。作为一个高度理性的人，你内心究竟经历了怎样的权衡？我不认为你决定去中国创业是未经深思的冲动行为。你是如何分析利弊和风险的？因为在外人看来，若无解释，这确实显得有点疯狂。

Suddenly, you're in a position to get a green card to take any number of jobs that would pay you who knows how much money. I have no idea, but, you know, 50,000, a 100,000, who knows, more maybe. What was going on internally in your mind or otherwise that gave you you're certainly highly rational person, so I don't believe the decision to go to China to be an entrepreneur was an impulsive move that wasn't thought through. So how did you think through the pros and cons and risks of doing that? Because from the outside looking in, without any explanation, it does kind of look crazy.

嗯，我确实非常理性。实际上有段时间我一直在纠结是回BCG还是去高盛工作——我在商学院中期曾在那里暑期实习过。

Well, I was very rational for sure. Actually for a while I was deciding between going back to BCG versus going going to work for Goldman Sachs. And, where I had summer intern during the middle of my business school.

没错，这两家公司的薪资通常都远高于最低工资标准。

Yeah. Both known for paying more than minimum wage generally.

没错。我觉得25岁时我本可以轻松年入10万美元以上。但我当时甚至还在用电子表格列优缺点清单。记得有位BCG中国区的高管问我一个问题：抛开所有利弊分析，你究竟想做什么？

That's right. I think I was definitely could have made more than a $100,000 a year at age 25. But I was preparing even a spreadsheet sort of listing the pros and cons. And I think one person I met who was a senior person at BCG in China asked me a question, was like, what do you want to do? Putting aside all these pros and cons, what do you want to do?

这个问题当时确实难倒了我，因为我其实并不清楚自己想要什么。坦白说，在那之前我人生中从未有人真正问过这个问题。我为自己做过最重要的决定就是选择与现在的妻子（当时的女友）在一起，这个我们稍后可以再聊。

And that sort of stumped me actually because I didn't really know what I want. I wanted. And all my life, frankly, nobody really asked me that question, what I wanted up until that point. I think one big decision I made for myself was to be with my now wife, then girlfriend. That was a huge thing for me, which we can go back to.

但在职业发展上，我只是随波逐流选择最热门的选项。大学毕业时BCG是最受欢迎的择业选择——我同时拿到了BCG和麦肯锡的offer。BCG工作两年后，读商学院又成了最主流的选择，所以我同时获得了斯坦福和哈佛商学院的录取。

But in terms of career, I was just going to through whatever's the most popular thing was. BCG, when I graduated from college, was the most popular career choice. BCG and McKinsey, I got an offer from both. Then after BCG, going to business school was the most popular choice after two years. So I got an offer from both Stanford and Harvard Business School.

这些都是显而易见的选择。但回国发展在当时并不流行。记得我那届哈佛商学院有12名中国学生，最终只有我选择回国。不过有趣的是，几年后其中10个人都陆续回国了，这是后话。

That was this clear choice. Going back to China, however, was not a popular choice. And I think not as I think about 12 Chinese students in the Harvard Business School graduate class of my year, I think I was the only person going back to China. Now actually a few years later, think 10 of the 12 eventually all went back to China. That's a different story.

当时回国创业绝对非主流。准确地说，1998、1999年创办互联网公司可能还算时髦，但我认为...

But that was not popular back then. And starting companies certainly wasn't popular. I guess, well, I'll take it back. I think starting internet companies in 1999, 1998, 1999 might've been popular choice. But I don't think it

并非跟风之举。我觉得...

was driven by that. I think

是真正看到了机遇，认定这是个值得创建的好生意。有种信念告诉我：既然没人做这件事，就该由我来做。当然当时不知道已有好几家公司准备入场，我并非唯一甚至不是最早的，但我坚信这件事应该发生。

it was driven because I really saw an opportunity and I felt that it's such a good business and it will it should be created. I think there was this kind of belief that this is a business worthwhile to be created And since nobody else is doing it, I should be doing it. Now, of course, I didn't know that back then several other companies were preparing to launch. So I definitely wasn't the only or even the first one to launch, but I felt like this is something that should happen.

回顾那个决定，你曾与BCG中国区的一位合伙人有过这样的对话，他询问你真正想要什么，而你看到了这个机会。你是否也制定了万一失败的应急计划？

If we look at that decision, you had this conversation with a BCG partner in China who asked you what you really wanted and you saw this opportunity. Did you also have a contingency plan in the case that it didn't work out?

哦，是的，我确实有。我告诉BCG中国区的高级合伙人，我会先创业几个月。几个月后如果业务步入正轨，我就回BCG工作。

Oh, yes, I did actually. I told BCG, their senior partner in China, that I will start the business for a few months. After a few months, the business should be in good shape, then I'll go back to BCG.

我们会在

We'll have it all figured out in a

几个月内搞定一切。我会理顺所有事情，让它稳定运转进入自动巡航模式，然后就能回BCG工作。我不知道他当时怎么想——我记得他叫John Wong——对我这番话的看法。但他非常宽容，说'好吧，没问题'，并同意了。

few months. I'll figure everything out, it will be steady, it will be autopilot, and then I can go work with BCG. I have no idea what he thought about my I think his name is John Wong and what he thought about what I said at the time. But he was very generous and he said, okay, that's okay. And he agreed to it.

我想他至少为我保留职位有一年时间。

I think he held my place for at least a year.

这确实非常关键。虽然我对多个要点都这么说过，但这种情况太常见了。你之前提到拨号上网的例子——我该停止用杂志封面人物举例了，毕竟现在只有机场才能见到杂志。但媒体报道总把创业者塑造成浪漫化的动作片主角。

So this is really important. And I know I've said that about a number of points, but it's so common for, I think, I would usually you were talking about dial up modems. You know, I I need to stop using the example of, like, people on magazine covers because now the only time you ever see magazines is in the airport. Like, it's just not really a thing anymore. But the profiles and so on that you read about entrepreneurs tend to be turned into these romanticized action movies.

虽然过程充满戏剧性，但当人们听说扎克伯格辍学时，会想'天啊他破釜沉舟孤注一掷'——实际上并非如此。很多名校允许延迟毕业或随时复学。我认为准创业者需要明白：最优秀的企业家往往在冒险同时也会规避风险。你这次谈话本质上获得了安全网，能让你进行创业实验。这种幕后真相很有启发意义。

And there's certainly a lot of action, but when someone says, you know, Zuckerberg dropped out of college, right, and people hear that and they think, oh my god, he threw it all away, burned the ships, bet it all, and it's like, actually, that's not that's not what happened because in many of these schools, you have the ability to defer graduation or come back over a certain period of time or maybe at any point in time. And it's, I think, helpful for would be entrepreneurs to hear that oftentimes the best entrepreneurs do take calculated risks, but they also mitigate risk. Right? So you had had this conversation, and you had, in a sense, a safety net of sorts so that you could do this experiment and see what would happen with the company. And I I think that it's it's really helpful to kinda peek behind the scenes.

说得好。

That's a good point.

那么如果我们回到那家公司，当时你刚开始和那些白天在办公室睡觉、晚上工作的IT人员共事，那家公司叫什么名字？

So if we go back to the company, at the time when you were first getting started with the IT guys who were sleeping in the office during their day job and working at night, what was the name of the company?

叫易趣网。就像，每个人的网络。

It's called EachNet. Like like, each and everybody's net.

好的，易趣网。

Okay. EachNet.

对，中文意思是‘有趣的交易’。

Yeah. In Chinese means interesting exchanges.

有趣的交易。用中文怎么说？名字是什么？

Interesting exchanges. How do you say that in Chinese? What was the name?

意思是交易，也有有趣或好玩的意思。

Means exchange, means interesting or fun.

好的。好的。好的。明白了。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Got it.

声音确实能用。翻译功能也正常。

The sound actually works. The translation works.

这很酷。所以这是一种音译，但同时你也得考虑含义。顺便说一句，各位听众注意，当你请中国人用中文写你的名字时，之所以这么困难，部分原因是你必须非常谨慎地考虑汉字的意义。不能只抓个发音就...

That's cool. So it's it's a transliteration, but you also have the meaning, which by the way, anyone listening, when you ask someone, if you ever ask a Chinese person to write my name in Chinese, part of the reason it's so hard is you have to think very carefully about what the characters mean. You can't just grab the phonetics and

没错。

That's right.

随便写个东西。你必须非常注意实际含义。其实我不知道有没有告诉过你，我第一次去中国是在北京学习。英文叫什么来着？我甚至记不清了，是北京首都经济贸易大学。

Throw something on paper. You have to be very careful about what the actual meaning is. And, you know, I actually I don't know if I ever told you about when I first went to China and was studying at the Beijing. What is it in English? I can't even remember the Beijing, the Beijing Capital University of Business and Economics.

我在普林斯顿时就被起了中文名，叫费霆成。这个名字某种程度上含有'小费'的意思，就像西班牙语里的那种。有趣的是，你说你父母会叫你'小波'对吧？是的。

And I had been given my name, my Chinese name at Princeton, which was Fei Tingcheng. And was which is like, it's a sort of expense in a way is is the meaning would be, like, a tip, like, in Spanish or whatever. But funny enough, you were saying that your parents would call you like little little Bo. Right? Yes.

如果有人这么叫我，我的名字意思就成了'小费'。所以这是我中文名的第一个问题。'费'对应我的姓氏Ferris。对吧？然后...

If people use that with me, my name meant tip. But so that was problem number one with my Chinese name. So fei was for my last name, Ferris. Right? And then Yeah.

听冲。所以那个t音是，对。Tim，他们用冲和严咋拼。因为我在课堂上总是很直率，就像

Ting Chung. So the t sound was Yeah. Tim, and they they used Chung with Yan Zapan. Because I was always so blunt in class, it was like

哦，我明白了。

Oh, I see.

Tim非常诚实，因为我那时很讨人厌。但那个名字的问题，或者说问题之一——我举两个例子，当我到中国后告诉别人我的名字时，这种音译的外国名字很奇怪。别人经常听不清你在说什么。所以有些人以为我的名字是飞机场（Fei Ji Chang），就是机场的意思，对吧？

Tim very honest because I was a pain in the ass. But the problem with that name or one of the problems I'll give two examples of problems when I got to China and you're telling people your name and it's a strange kind of transliterated foreign name. It's not always clear what the hell you're saying. And so some people thought my name was Fei Ji Chang, which is airport. Right?

所以这是个问题。他们会说，你的名字是机场？好奇怪。还有人把我的名字听成飞艇场（Fei Ting Chang）而不是冲（Chung），Tim很长也有问题。所以最后我们把我的名字改成了……‘yu’像是‘a’但底部没有那一横。

So that was a problem. They're like, your name is airport. That's strange. Other people heard my name as Fei Ting Chang instead of Chung, and so Tim very long also has problems. So ultimately, we changed my name to and yu is like a but without the at the bottom.

这是个相当罕见的字。总之，绕了这么大圈子就是说，给东西起名时必须非常谨慎。对了，顺便对读者说

It's a pretty, rare character. But anyway, so this is just a long way of saying you have to you have to think very carefully about how you name things. And Yeah. By the way, for the readers

对于不懂中文的听众，我想说你的中文其实真的很好。你的中文发音非常标准。

for the listeners who do not know Chinese, I would say your Chinese is actually really good. Your Chinese pronunciation is very good.

哦，谢谢兄弟。现在生疏了，但我希望有天能回去，回到中国，因为我知道的中国还是1996年的中国。我是说，那时候还是人民解放

Oh, thanks, man. It's very rusty, but I hope to get back to you at some point, get back to China because the China I know is 1996 China. I mean, this is like people's liberation

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

我的夹克、丝绸之路上的DVD、夹克里的燃烧器，还有自行车。我是说，那才是我认识的北京。

My jackets, silk road with DVDs, burners inside jackets, and bicycles. I mean, that's the Beijing I know.

我得带你回中国看看。你会震惊得下巴都掉下来。

I've gotta take you back to China. You will be just shocked. Your your jaw will be on the floor.

是啊，去参观科幻般的未来。回到互联网的话题，你什么时候真正觉得它开始奏效了？或者你心想，天啊，这真的可能成功。

Yeah. Visit the sci fi future. So coming back to each net, when did you actually feel like it was working? Or you thought to yourself, oh my god. This might actually work.

那个时刻是什么时候？或者有哪些迹象，任何让你觉得‘好吧，可能就是它了’的信号？

Like, when was that moment? Or what were some of the signs, any signs where you're like, okay, maybe this is the thing?

这就像坐过山车一样起伏不断。有很多次我都觉得‘哦，这可行了’，但转眼间又会想‘天呐，这根本行不通’。我们最初融资时大概只筹到了三四十万美金的小额天使轮，但后来在1999年10月我们融到了650万美元。

It's a constant roller coaster. So there are many moments I would said, oh, this is working. But then the other moments, holy shit, this is not working. It goes up and down. You know, there'll be times when we raise initially we raised I think I'd raised a small angel around like a few three hundred, four hundred k, but then we raised $6,500,000 I think in October 1999.

那在当时可是一大笔钱。如今650万美元的A轮融资实在微不足道，但在那时确实算相当可观的金额。我当时当然觉得‘哦，事情进展顺利’。结果五个月后，我就把钱全花光了。才五个月啊。

And that was a lot of money back then. These days, series A of 6,500,000.0 is really very small, but back then it's actually a fairly substantial amount of money. So definitely I thought, oh, things are going well. But then it turns out five months later, I spent it all. Five months.

问题是，我甚至不知道自己把钱都花光了。有一次，我的财务总监过来告诉我，你知道我们

And the thing is I didn't even know I spent it all. At one point, my financial controller came to say, do you know that we

已经没钱了，下个月发不出全额工资了

have no more money that we're not gonna pay

吗？真的吗？我完全不知情。你看，我对实际经营企业了解得多么少。现在回想起来确实如此。

a full salary next month? Is it really? I didn't even know. Like, that's how little I know about really running a business. It's actually really thinking back.

对于一个数学冠军来说，这确实挺尴尬的。

It's pretty it's pretty embarrassing for a math champion.

说得好。显然，当时情况不妙。然后我们需要...我想中文里叫'勒紧裤腰带'对吧？意思就是必须节衣缩食。

Good fact. That's clearly, things were not working. And then we need to to, I guess, what do you call in Chinese, will be, which means that you have to tighten your belts, I guess.

勒紧裤腰带，没错。你把钱都花在什么地方了？

Tighten your belt, yeah. What did you spend all that money on?

广告。我们可能是中国最早在电视上打广告的互联网公司之一。

Advertising. We were one of I think we might be the old the first internet company in China to do TV advertising.

哦，电视，哇。

Oh, TV, wow.

是的。我们拍了广告。非常激动人心。我们获得了大量用户，当然网站也总是崩溃。有段时间我都不敢访问自己的网站，生怕成为压垮系统的最后一根稻草。

Yeah. So we had commercials made. It was very exciting and all that. And we got a lot of users and of course our website crashed all the time. And at one point I was afraid to go onto my own website, the thinking being that I might be the last straw that breaks the counter

我也不想给服务器增加任何负担。太棒了，哇。

as well. I don't wanna add any load to our servers. That's amazing. Wow.

把这个宝贵机会留给你们团队里真正需要这个网站的人吧。

Just give that valuable opportunity to somebody at you who will find its site useful.

快速问一下。那个电视广告，我打赌你还记得部分内容。你当时说了什么？还记得中文版的任何内容吗？然后你可以用英文解释。

So quick question. The TV commercial, I bet you still remember parts of that TV commercial. What did you say? Do you remember any of it in Chinese? And then you can explain what it is in English.

你还记得任何内容吗？

Do you remember any of it?

我记得我们的logo像是两个相对的字母e。一个e是另一个e的镜像。我记得电视广告里这个双e标志——一个是橙色，一个是绿色，它们好像在对话或玩耍之类的。这部分我还记得。但具体对话内容已经记不清了。

I recall that our logo looked like two e's facing each other. Two e's with the other one being a mirror image of the other e facing each And I remember TV commercials around sort of like I remember this logo of two e's. One is orange, one is green instead of talking to each other or playing with each other or something like that. That I do recall. But other than what they actually said to each other, I do not recall anymore.

你们的标语是什么？公司有中文标语之类的吗？

What was your tagline? Did you have a tagline for the company in in Chinese or anything like that?

交换的乐趣。英文意思就是交换的乐趣。

The fun in exchanges. Which in English means the fun in exchanges.

不错，我喜欢。好吧，这电视广告真棒。你甚至没在自己的网站上，因为不想让服务器崩溃。

That's good. I like that. All right. So awesome TV commercial. You're not even on your own site because you don't wanna crash the servers.

而且你们资金耗尽，财务总监说，Bo，我们有个小问题。我们发不出工资了。怎么办？

And you've run out of money and your controller's like, Bo, we have a small problem. We're not gonna be able to make payroll. What happens?

嗯，我们当时想办法给每个人都发了工资

Well, we were able to get everybody

勒紧裤腰带吧。

Tighten your belt.

没错。实际上我让团队行动起来，告诉大家：好吧，我们没钱了，大家都得降薪。所以我们当时都降了50%的薪水。现有投资者拿出几百万美元帮我们过渡。他们最终愿意这么做，我对此非常感激。

That's right. I think actually got the team in play to get and say, okay, we have no more money and we all need to take a pay cut. So I think we all took like a 50% pay cut. Existing investors holding it up a few million dollars to bridge us. They were ultimately willing to do that, which I'm very grateful for.

然后我们进行了融资路演。当然，我记得大概在二月份或三月初的时候，市场崩盘了。最初反响非常积极。那些不了解我们公司的人都说要给我们开一张5000万美元的支票。但后来市场崩盘，一切基本都化为乌有。

And then we went on a fundraising tour. And of course, in I think it was around February or March in February, the market crashed. The initial reception was very positive. People, without knowing the company said, we're to write you a $50,000,000 check. But then the market crashed and all of it basically went away.

就这么蒸发了。

Just evaporates.

我记得瑞士信贷第一波士顿是我们的融资银行。当时我们有个领投方——这里就不点名了——最初承诺投5000万，后来降到2000万。有天我翻开《华尔街日报》，头版写着这家公司陷入困境。看完我就想：糟了，这不是好消息。他们很可能不会履行承诺。

I remember Credit First Boston was our banker to try to raise money for us. And, we had a lead, which shall remain unnamed, actually, no, was willing to write a Initially, it was 50 and then became 20. The one day I looked at and I read Wall Street Journal and on the front page, it says this firm is in trouble. When I read that, I said, uh-oh, that's not good news. They're probably not gonna honor their commitment.

所以我提前想好了说辞，如果对方来电要反悔口头承诺或条款书怎么办。我决定不要求2000万，而是改要500万。我说如果给500万，我会先诉苦说因为他们撤资给我造成多大麻烦——毕竟我们一直指望着这笔钱。这就是我的诉求：我需要500万，不是2000万。

So I thought about what I'm gonna say if the firm calls me to renege on their verbal commitment or their term sheet. I decided to ask them for 5,000,000 instead of 20. I said, if you give me 5,000,000, I'll first guilt trip them saying how much trouble they got me in because I was counting on their money and all that. And that was I make a request. I need 5,000,000, not 20.

只要给我500万，剩下的1500万我自己去筹。结果第二天，Instagram那个人果然打来了电话。

If you give me 5, I will raise the rest of the 20. So lo and behold, the next day indeed, this person from Instagram called.

还好你看了那份报纸。然后他说他们需要

Good thing you saw that newspaper. Yeah. And he said he they need

全部撤资。我立刻抛出准备好的说辞，他说会回去内部协调。试想如果当时我只是说'谢谢理解'或者'没关系'，没有明确提出具体诉求让他们准备的话，这事就彻底黄了。

to just withdraw altogether. And I gave him my prepared spiel and he said that he will go back internally to see what he can do. Now, if I had said that, thank you, I understand or this is all good. If I didn't make a specific request and they didn't prepare, this would have been over. Yeah.

相反，我提出了一个具体且有可能被接受的请求。然后我有一位好友去找老板，试图讲道理并哄劝。最终我们确实得到了500万美元。接着我恳求许多人各投入50万或100万不等。最终我们成功筹集到了2000万美元。

Instead, I made a specific request that has a chance of being honored. And then I had a very good friend who went to the boss and tried to reason and tried to cajole. So eventually we did get 5,000,000. And then I begged many people to put in half a million or a million or whatnot. And eventually we were able to raise $20,000,000.

哇。

Wow.

就这样公司得以生存并蓬勃发展。

And that's how the company survived and thrived.

如果对方立即拒绝，你有备用方案吗？比如如果他们拒绝500万，你会转而提出其他请求吗？

Did you have a backup plan in case the immediate answer was no? Did you have, say, if they say no to 5,000,000, I'm gonna come back with this other request?

那就是B计划了。是的。不，没有备用方案。

That was plan b. Yeah. Yeah. No. There was no backup.

我想我们可能不得不解散公司。现有投资人会怎么做我不确定，但在看不到盈利前景的情况下，他们很难再投入大量资金。

I think we'd have to dissolve, I think. Yeah. Well, I mean, I don't know what the existing investor would have done, but I think it will be hard pressed for them to put a lot more money without profitability insight.

我必须问你，博，因为在我们的多次对话中我注意到——你的英语词汇量极其广博，比如'哄劝'这个词。你的英语词汇运用非常精妙，这在非母语者中实属罕见，事实上我很少见到这种情况。

I have to ask you, Bo, because I've noticed this in many of our conversations. You have an incredibly broad English vocabulary, like cajole. Right? I mean, there you you have a very nuanced English vocabulary, which is not always the case. It's actually rarely the case, I find, with a lot of non native speakers.

你是怎么积累这么多词汇的？

How did you accumulate such a vocabulary?

我想这要归功于哈佛。

I guess I have Harvard to thank.

是因为哈佛吗？我认识很多普林斯顿毕业的母语者，他们的词汇量都没你大。

Was it Harvard? Because I know a lot of native speakers I went to Princeton with who do not have your vocabulary.

事情是这样的，1990年我在中国读高三时申请美国大学，当时中国还没有SAT考试，我无法提供标准化考试成绩。现在应该有了。我考了托福（针对外国人的英语考试），成绩很好，但学校还是要求类似SAT的标准化考试成绩。实际上我因此没能申请MIT，因为MIT不愿豁免SAT要求。按我当时的志向，如果能申请的话可能会选择MIT。

So what happened was, I was applying for college in The US in, you know, 1990 when I was in China in my junior year high school, I couldn't provide standardized testing results because SAT was not offered in China at the time. Now I think it is. So I can take the TOEFL, which is the English test for foreigners, which I passed and did very well in, but the school still wanted some kind of standardized test results, just like the SATs. And in fact, I couldn't apply to MIT because of it, because MIT was not willing to give a waiver of SAT. If I had gotten to MIT, I probably would have gone to MIT given my orientation at the time.

但我成功说服了哈佛等学校接受GRE成绩。GRE是研究生入学考试，当时在中国可以考。我参加了GRE并考了高分，记得是2260分，大概是当时全国前三的水平。

But I was able to convince Harvard and other schools to take the GRE. And GRE being the graduate record examination, which is for PhD programs. And that was offered in China. So I took the GRE test and aced it. I think it got two thousand two and sixty, I think it was like the third highest in the country at that time or something like that.

这对申请很有帮助。GRE考试（不知道现在还是否如此）有个词汇测试部分，我记得比SAT的词汇部分难得多，真的难很多。

And that helped the application process. But one of the GRE, I don't know if it still does or not, but it has had a verbal section which is basically testing your vocabulary. And I remember it was much harder than the SAT verbal sections, much harder.

确实难得多。对，难太多了。

It's much harder. Yeah, much harder.

我记得当时拿到一本需要记忆的厚厚词汇书。我花了大概一两个月的时间专门研读那本书，记住每一个单词。

So I remember getting this huge book of words that I needed to remember. And I just spent several, probably one or two months just studying that book, remembering every word.

当你需要长时间集中注意力时，内心会发生什么变化或你会怎么做？因为这对你来说就像超能力。比如面临新考试需要坐下来学习时，你的学习状态是怎样的？可以是你的具体做法或准备方式，也可以是内心状态的转变、内在独白或自我对话等任何方面。

What happens internally or what do you do when you need to focus for an extended period of time? Because you you have that as a superpower. When you need to, say, sit down, if you had a new test coming up and needed to sit down and study something, what does both studying look like? And that could be things that you do or how you prepare, but it could also be your internal state shift or internal monologue or self talk, anything.

我想我其实是在不知不觉中学会了冥想。正因如此，我拥有很强的专注力。我小时候通过快速叠加扑克牌来练习——要在十二秒内把52张牌的数字相加，我必须清除所有杂念。如果我开始担忧或试图有意识地计算，反而会失败。

I think it turns out that I learned how to meditate when not knowing that it was meditation. I have a very good ability to focus because of that. And I think the meditation I did was when I tried to add the poker cards together when I was very young. And to add 50 cards, 52 cards together in twelve that twelve seconds, I needed to get rid of all thought. If I start worrying, if I start trying to consciously add it, it wouldn't work.

速度就会跟不上。所以我必须让自己抽离出来。我记得会仰望天空或天花板，用特定方式放空大脑。当然视觉仍在工作，但这是个抑制思维的过程，或者说摆脱自我执念。另一个关键是不要执着结果，因为越在意就越焦躁，想着会失败然后就真的失败了。

It wouldn't be that fast. So I need to get myself out of the way. I remember looking up into the sky or into the ceiling and just there's a particular way I blanked my mind. Mind can still see, of course, but there was a particular process of suppressing thought, I guess, or getting out of the egoic kind of self and with no attachment also. Another key thing was no attachment to the result because the more attached I became, the more agitated and I was thinking that it wouldn't work and then I fail.

有时候我甚至会哭出来，因为连续二三十次尝试要么算错要么超时不计成绩。我每天必须在时限内正确完成十次。随着水平提高，时限还在不断缩短。父亲这样要求的。所以有时被逼到绝境时，我必须彻底放空大脑，也不能对表现有任何执念。

And then actually there'd be times when I was basically cried because I could do twenty, thirty times in a row and either they were wrong or it took too much time so that it doesn't count. I need to get 10 times right under the right limit every day. And the limit kept decreasing as I became more successful. And my father said it that way. So it was sometimes at the end of my rope and I needed to blank my mind and also not to feel any kind of attachment to how I do.

这种状态下我反而能发挥最佳水平。对我来说这就是某种形式的冥想。我其实是在不知不觉中锻炼了这种能力。

And that's when I did my best work. And to me, that's in some ways just meditation. And I think I was able to develop that muscle without knowing that it's actually really a form of meditation.

这确实就是冥想，很多运动员也会进入这种状态而不称之为冥想。感谢回答这个问题，其实我一直对此很好奇。现在我们回到EachNet的话题，最终结果如何？让大家知道这个故事的结局。

Yeah, it certainly strikes me as meditation and I think a lot of athletes also enter meditative states without calling it meditation. Thank you for answering that question. I've actually always wondered that about you. So if we come back to EachNet, how'd that turn out? Just so people kind of know how the movie ends in a sense.

我们没法详细讨论这个，但我想简单说一下。基本上，它成功了，成为中国最大的电商公司。2003年2月，我们以无法拒绝的价格卖给了eBay。之后我就退休了。不幸的是，我原本计划继续经营，但一场家庭悲剧让我无法实现。

We can't do a whole session on this, but I wanna be very short about it. But, you know, it's basically it became successful, became the largest e commerce company in China. We sold it to eBay for a price I couldn't say no to in 02/2003. And I retired after that. And unfortunately, was actually planning to run it, but a family tragedy prevented me from doing it.

我需要陪伴妻子支持她。所以在出售公司几个月后，我最终没有继续经营。后来eBay发展得不好。我至今仍感到难过，因为那是我的心血。由于种种原因，像eBay这样的跨国企业在中国没能做好。

I needed to be with my wife to support her. So I ended up not running the firm a couple months after I sold it. And then eBay did not do well. I still feel sad about it because it was my baby. And for many reasons, a multinational company like eBay couldn't do well in China.

我们的电商市场份额从80%多骤降到5%，只用了短短几年。当时马云在做B2B电商业务，但在我出售公司前后，他推出了B2C和C2C电商业务，那家公司叫淘宝。淘宝成立后，用了大约十年成为中国最大的电商平台，而eBay尽管起步早却举步维艰。后来的事大家都知道了。

So we went from 80 plus percent market share in e commerce down to 5% in a matter of a few years. Jack Ma at the time was in the B2B business, e commerce, but he launched the e commerce B2C, C2C e commerce business right around the time when I sold my company and the company is called Taobao. The new company started called Taobao, which became the biggest e commerce player in China after about ten years or so. While eBay really struggled despite having a huge head start. People say this, the rest is history.

你提到了妻子，也谈到这段关系对你很重要。能否详细说说？特别是你之前承认过认为情绪是干扰，所以我很想听你多谈谈这方面。

You mentioned your wife and you mentioned also earlier in the conversation how important, It sounded like meeting her and committing to that relationship was. Could you expand on that? Especially because you also confessed earlier that you viewed emotions as distractions. So so I'd love for you to say a bit more about all of that.

我想当我遇见她时，就彻底坠入爱河了。就像被卡车撞到一样，完全不知所措。

I think I met her and I just simply fell in love with her head over heels. A truck hit me and I didn't even know what happened.

你们在哪里相遇的？

Where did you meet?

我当时在商学院，她在哈佛肯尼迪政府学院。那是她在那里的最后几个月，而我在读商学院第一年。我陷入热恋，变得非常不理性。我开始相信她就是命中注定要与我共度一生的人。

I was in business school and she was in the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard. So she was the last year, last few months of her time there. And I was doing my first year of business school And I fell in love, became very irrational. I started just basic things. I believe that she is meant to be with me and I'm meant to be with her.

我无所畏惧，无忧无虑。我全力以赴。从某些方面来说，最大的奇迹是她竟然也爱我。尽管当时的我满身缺点，她却始终爱着我。但在她面前，我变得感性、热情似火又体贴入微。

I had no fear, no worry. I went all out. And the biggest mystery in some ways is that she loves me back. She loved me and loves me back, even though I was very flawed at the time. But I guess in front of her, I was emotional, I was extremely passionate, I was considerate.

我让所有被压抑的情感以不自知的方式流露出来，那完全不受控制。若没有她，我绝不会成为现在的自己。她不仅是我的生活伴侣和挚友，更让我内心深埋的潜能得以绽放。

I let all the things I suppressed, I think show up in a way that was not conscious. It was out of my control. And without her, I don't think I would be the person that I am today. So it's not only I have a live companion and my best friend, but also that, you know, being with her enabled me to blossom. Whatever that was hidden deep and buried blossomed.

需要说明的是，我只对她展现这一面。在之后很长岁月里，面对其他人时，我依然是那个冷漠、理性、爱评判的旧我。

Now, to be clear, I only was that way with her. For the longest time, I was still the same cold, unemotional, analytical, judgmental me with everybody else for many years

之后呢。

after that.

于是就会出现这种分裂的双面场景：前一秒还在用刻板分析的语气训斥员工，电话铃响接起来瞬间，我就变成轻声细语说'我爱你、我想你'的黏人小猫，挂断后又立刻恢复面无表情的机器人状态。很多人都说我看起来根本不会开口说话。所以

So there will be very incongruent Jackal and Hyde kind of scenarios where I will be just lecturing my employees in a very kind of analytical and judgmental way. Then my phone would ring, I'll pick up, I became like a little kitten talking to her in small voices, I love you and I miss you, blah, blah, blah. And I went back straight to the old straight faced robot that I was. Many people have commented that I was not gonna talk. So

你退休了。那你退休时多大年纪？我要给'退休'打上引号。

you you retire. Well, how old were you when you retired? And I'm gonna put that in quotation marks.

当时29岁。其实我很惊讶，因为经过最初几周狂喜期后，虽然我经常上电视出名什么的，但生活本质和从前并无二致。

I was 29 years old. I was surprised actually because after the first few months of first really, for first week of ecstasy, I was famous on TV all the time and everything, life was the same as before.

这事情发生得挺有意思的，是吧。

Funny how that happens, yeah.

这让我很迷茫，因为我想我和大多数人一样，会想象当你达到那个高度时，生活就会变得不同。在某些方面，我甚至不确定自己在追寻什么，但总觉得只要获得那种成功，无论追寻什么都能找到答案。但实际上并没有发生改变，我还是原来的我，几乎没什么变化。

And it was disorienting because I think I go to a picture, like most people probably do, that somehow you sort of, when you reach that level, your life will become different. In some ways, I wasn't even sure what I was searching for, but whatever I was searching for felt like, well, if you get that kind of success, whatever you searched for, you would have found it. But actually it didn't happen. I was still the same old me and very little changed.

我们可能得找个时间再深入聊聊。平时我们也经常私下交流，或许能理清头绪。不过现在我想知道，Bo，你还有多少时间？大概二十分钟？

We may just have to have a round two at some point. And obviously we talk a lot separately, maybe we can figure that out. But I know that we have, let's just call it how much more time do you have, Bo? Like twenty minutes?

我还有三十分钟左右。

I have about thirty minutes or so.

好的。那我们还有半小时，可以稍后再深入探讨。之后你做了很多事情，作为经纬中国的创始合伙人，管理着超过70亿美元资金，投资了500多家公司，其中50多家成为了独角兽企业。

Yeah. Okay. So we have another thirty minutes, and we may dig into this separately. You did you ended up doing many things after that. You're a founding partner of Matrix China, which manages more than $7,000,000,000 and has funded more than 500 companies, 50 plus of which become unicorns.

履历上当然不止这些，而且你在很多方面依然保持着强劲的进取势头。

There's more to the resume, obviously, and you continue to be, hard charging in a lot of ways.

是的。但履历并不是我最看重的部分，我更在意的是...

Yeah. And the resume is not the most important part about me, and what which I want

好的。所以这就是那个，嗯，过渡点，我们相识的部分原因正是关于内在旅程和将目光与注意力转向内心的讨论，对吧？我们不是在商业社交活动上认识的，也没有在合作什么合资项目。

to Right. So so this is the well, this is the segue, which is the way we met was in part around the discussion of inner journey and turning the eye and attention inward. Right? We we didn't meet at a business networking event. We weren't doing a joint venture together.

我们是在非常私人的场合相遇的。这对你来说是怎么开始的？那个过程——我知道'过程'这个词很宽泛——但什么时候它变成了优先事项？又是如何成为你生活中的优先事项的？

We met in a very personal context. How did that start for you? How did that process and I know process is a broad term, but when did that become a priority and how did it become a priority for you?

首先，我要说我曾经对任何形式的内在修行都毫无兴趣，持续了很长很长时间。实际上，我过去会看不起那些参加静修或冥想的人，心想这些人到底在干嘛？生活中明明有更有意义的事可做。那时候的我几乎觉得这种行为令人作呕，真的。所以我完全没兴趣。

First, I would say that I had no interest in any kind of inner work for a long, long time. In fact, I would look down on people who go to retreats or meditations, when on and say, what the hell are these people doing? They have better things to do in life. I was sort of I found almost disgusting despicable back then actually. So I had no interest.

但生活自有其方式，如果一个人留意的话，我想它会发出小小的提醒。我收到的第一个提醒是：嘿，你知道吗，即便取得了巨大成功，我还是那个有着相同行为模式、与之前相同幸福程度的我。回首往事，我意识到与现在的生活相比，那时的日子更像是黑白电视，而如今则是彩色电视。如果我一生只看过黑白电视，这种差异很难描述。我用这个例子是因为我从小看九英寸黑白电视长大，一辈子都觉得完全没问题。

But life I think has a way of, if one pays attention, I guess, to send little reminders. So the first reminder I got was, hey, you know, I was still the same me with some of the same kind of patterns of behavior, same level of happiness and joy that I had before this big success. And looking back, I realized that compared to the life I have today, the life back then was more of a black white television and today is more colorful television. It's hard to describe the difference if I only watched black and white television all my life. The reason I used this example was, you know, because I grew up with a nine inch black and white television, which felt totally fine for all my life.

在没有见过80英寸彩色电视的情况下，那台九英寸黑白电视看起来完全够用且舒适。我想那就是我当时的处境。我的生活没有太多色彩，没有欢乐。我几乎从不哭泣，也从不真正开怀大笑或微笑。

And without having seen a 80 inches, you know, color television, the nine inch black and white looked completely adequate and comfortable. And I think that's where I was back then. My life didn't have a lot of color, didn't have joy. I never cried really. I never laughed, never smiled really.

有趣的是，我甚至从未感到孤独。我觉得独自一人，但并不孤独。但有些迹象开始隐约显现，比如我开始疑惑：我到底错过了什么？虽然只是些非常细微的迹象，单凭这些，我想我本不会踏上这段旅程。

I never even felt lonely, interestingly. I felt alone, but not lonely. But I think some of these things showed up a little bit, Like, oh, I sort of start wondering, what am I missing? There's a little, little, little things I think, but very small. On that alone, I don't think I would have embarked on the journey.

另一个提醒是我与妻子珍妮的生活与他人有多么不同。我还注意到她与他人互动的方式完全超出我的理解。记得有次我们和朋友吃饭，那位朋友谈起失去父亲的经历，我妻子直接站起来拥抱了他。我当时目瞪口呆，这完全不会出现在我的反应选项中。

Another reminder was how different my life was with Jenny, my wife, versus with other people. And also I see how she behaves with other people in a way that's sort of beyond my comprehension. I remember like one time she was we were having dinner with a friend and the friend started talking about how he lost his father and my wife just stood up and went to hug him. And I was dumbfounded. It never would occur to me to do it.

她在讲述一个故事，我在听，但我没有与故事中的情感内容产生共鸣。而我妻子显然有共鸣，她是我认识的最具同理心的人之一。于是我开始疑惑，这是怎么回事？我错过了什么？我还注意到，我可以与同事共事十年却从未成为朋友。

She's telling a story, I'm listening, but I was not in touch with the emotional content of the story. And my wife clearly was, and she is one of the most empathetic person alive that I know. So some part of me started wondering what's going on? What am I missing? And also I noticed that I could work with people for a decade and not become friends with them.

但她会与他们的伴侣共进晚餐。我们四人会一起聚餐，然后她就和他们成了朋友，而我却没有。尽管我认识他们十年，她才认识他们一天。这让我开始思考，我是否遗漏了什么？友谊是我所珍视的吗？

But she would then go to dinner with their significant other. The four of us will go to dinner or lunch and then she becomes friends with them, but not me. Even though I've known them for ten years and she knows them for like one day. So that sort of started something like, am I missing something? Is friendship something I value?

因为在几年前之前，我从不认为自己拥有朋友。但我总告诉自己我不需要朋友。

Because up until a few years ago, I didn't consider myself as having friends. But I always told myself I don't need friends.

我想接着追问一下。为什么你觉得自己没有朋友？是因为你认为与人亲近利少弊多吗？为何会有这种看法？

I wanna ask actually just a follow-up there. Why did you not consider yourself to have friends? Is it because you viewed getting close to people as having little upside and a lot of potential downside? Why did you see things that way?

这不是理性决策。如果诚实回答，我想深层原因是觉得自己不配拥有朋友。至今我内心仍有一部分认为自身有问题，不配获得任何友谊。除非我说的内容有用，否则没人会真正关心我的感受和想法。所以当我处于董事、投资者或能提供指导帮助的角色时，我才感到自在。

It was not a rational decision. I think deep down, if I were to answer honestly, is because I think I don't deserve a friend. And I think, I thought, and there's still a part of me, probably still thinks that there's something wrong with me, that I don't deserve any friends. That nobody would really take an interest in my feelings and in what I have to say, unless what I have to say is useful. So when I'm in a position, I'm a board member, investor, or somebody who could educate or whatever or help, then I feel comfortable.

这样的关系才有实质意义。但若纯粹是友谊，我部分内心无法理解——不明白你或他人为何会对真实的我产生兴趣。我缺乏这种信任。当然，这很大程度上与我的成长经历有关，我仍在逐步理解和完全体会这个过程。

Like this relationship has substance. But if it's simply a friendship, a part of me doesn't understand it. Like doesn't feel that why would you or other people take an interest in the inside of me. And I didn't have that trust. Of course, has to do this has a lot to do with how I was brought up and I'm still in the process of understanding and feeling it fully.

但长久以来我都告诉自己不需要朋友。至少这是表层的想法。更深层的认知来得缓慢得多。我想此刻它仍在发生，这是一个不断发现、摆脱我固有模式的持续旅程。

But I've told myself for the longest time that I don't need any friends. At least that's the conscious thought. The deeper down, you know, realization happened much more slowly. And I think it's still happening as we speak. It's a continuous journey of discovery and being free from those patterns I developed.

所以这是第二点，关于友谊和人际关系，我看待自己和珍妮的方式不同了，看待珍妮与他人的关系也不同了。这些都让我有所思考。我可以继续吗

So that's the second thing that in terms of friendship and relations with other people, I see myself with Jenny in a different way. I see Jenny with other people in a different way. That's all got me thinking a little bit. Is it okay if I continue

沿着这个方向？当然可以。

on this route? Absolutely.

当然。好的。然后是第三点，我认为这可能是最无法回避的重大问题——身为父亲。我曾是个糟糕的父亲。你知道，有段时间在中国推特微博上，我相当受欢迎，很多人关注我。

Of course. Right. And then and the third, which I think is probably the biggest one that I couldn't avoid looking at was being a father. I was a terrible father. You know, for a while on the Chinese Twitter, Weibo, I was a very reasonably popular and a lot of people followed me.

我的个人简介里，名字下方写的是'完美丈夫但勉强及格的父亲'。现在回想起来，我觉得这评价都过于宽容了。我根本不是勉强及格，而是个彻头彻尾的失败父亲。当时根本不懂如何为人父。

And my model, I guess whatever I wrote right under my name was a perfect husband but a so so father. And I think I was giving myself too much credit. I don't think I was a so so father. I think I was a terrible father looking back. I didn't know how to be one.

我知道如何当老师，知道如何管教学生，但不懂得以现在理解的方式做父亲。不知道如何陪伴孩子，不知道如何给予他们爱与关注，更不懂得在他们需要时——特别是需要情感支持时——如何给予支持。

I knew how to be a teacher. I knew how to be a disciplinary, but I didn't know how to be a father the way I understand it now. And I didn't know how to spend time with them. I did not know how to give them love and attention. I didn't know how to give them support when they need it, emotional support in particular when they need it.

而且我压根不喜欢当父亲。记得妻子常在晚上8点左右提醒我去陪孩子睡觉，而当时的想法是'凭什么要我陪？'甚至对被要求履行父亲职责感到抵触。现在回想很可笑，但当时确实毫无乐趣可言。

And I also just did not enjoy being a father. I remember my wife will remind me to go spend time with my kids when it's 08:00 at night or something like that before they go to bed, before they went to bed. And my thought at the time was, why should I? And I felt some kind of resentment being called to do my job. It was really funny thinking back, but back then I really didn't enjoy it.

这让我开始思考：人们总说当父亲是件快乐的事，但我确实感受不到快乐。而且我清楚自己正在犯错——重复着我父亲当年的一些错误。这很震惊，因为你本以为自己绝不会重蹈那些你不喜欢的覆辙。但若非妻子及时制止，我可能会变得更糟，糟糕得多。

And that got me thinking a little bit, hey, there's something missing here that, you know, people talk about being a father being enjoyable but I really didn't enjoy it. And also I know that I knew that I was doing something wrong because I was repeating some of the mistakes that my father made. That was sort of shocking because you would imagine that you would never do what was done to you that he didn't like. But I was repeating the same thing. And if my wife didn't stop me, I would have been worse, far worse.

比如我父亲对我做过的一件事是，当他非常生气时，会威胁要把我扔出门外。我也这样对待过我的儿子。这对他造成了很大的心理创伤，至今他仍记得这件事，哪怕只是把他关在门外两秒钟。

So one of the things that my father, for example, did to me is if he got really angry, he would threaten to throw me out of the hole. And I did that to my son. And that was very traumatic for him. He still remembers it today. Even for like two seconds closing the door on him.

这真的很糟糕。但我当时不知道还能怎么做，那是我唯一知道的方式。作为父亲，当我感到绝望，当事情超出我的控制时，我就会变得绝望。所以我想我采取了那种有效的方法，因为从短期来看，我父亲对我用的那招确实有效。

It was so bad. But I didn't know what else to do. That was all I knew. When I got desperate as a father, when something happens outside of my control, I got desperate. So I guess I resorted to what worked because from a short term perspective what my father did to me worked.

我变得顺从了。

I became obedient.

感谢你的分享，Bo。我很高兴我们能进行这次对话，相信对很多人都会很有意义。我想了解，当你开始注意到这些行为模式，或许是Jenny提醒了你，你决定尝试改变或至少提高觉察时，有哪些方法对你特别有帮助？你最终发现哪些工具或方式是有用的？

Thank you for sharing Bo. I'm really glad that we're having this conversation. I think it's going to be meaningful to a lot of people. And I'd love to hear, as you began observing these behaviors, as perhaps Jenny called things to your attention, and you decided to try to change or at least become more aware, what are some of the things that you found helpful? What are some of the tools or modalities that end up being helpful?

因为我猜想刚开始时——我自己也有这样的经历——很难知道从哪里入手，对吧？就像黑猩猩照镜子似的，你会往镜子后面张望，心里想着：我该在这边看到什么吗？

Because I would imagine in the beginning, certainly I had this experience myself, it's hard to know where to begin. Right? And it's kind of like a chimpanzee with a mirror or something. Like, you're looking behind the mirror. You're like, am I supposed to see something over here?

我该在那边看到什么吗？我很想听听你的经验，因为我知道你尝试过非常非常多不同的方法。有哪些工具或方式是你个人觉得特别有帮助的？

Am I supposed to see something over here over there? And I would just love to hear, because I know that you have tested many, many, many different things. What are some of, say, tools, modalities, otherwise that you have found to be personally helpful?

我确实尝试过很多不同的方法。某种程度上，Tim，我和你很像，当我遇到真正重要的事情时，我会想要追根究底。我想学到最好的方法或形成最佳方案。首先，我认为要成为好父母需要具备三个要素——根据我的经验，这些要素可能是相互独立的，意味着擅长其中一个要素并不必然擅长第二个要素。

I definitely try many different things. In some ways, I'm I like you, Tim, that I when I get on something, really that's important, then I would want to get to the bottom of it. I want to learn the best or form the best. First of all, I would say that there are three components to being a good parent that I've learned. And these are not necessarily they might be orthogonal to each other, meaning they're, you know, being good at one component doesn't mean necessarily going to be good at the second component.

在我看来，理解孩子头脑中发生的事情、他们的生理和心理状态是三个关键组成部分之一。最主要的是，孩子与我们截然不同。我们总以为他们应该能完全掌控自己的身体、思想或行为。但现实是，比如对男孩来说，他们的前额叶皮质要到二十多岁才能完全发育。所以当孩子才12岁时，期望他们行为自律根本是不合理的。

So the three components in my view is one is understanding what's going on inside of our children's heads and what's going on in their biology, in their psychology. And the main thing is we are children are so different from us. We assume that they should have executive control of their body or of their mind or their actions. But the reality is, for example, for a boy, their prefrontal cortex doesn't fully develop until they're in their 20s. So when they are 12, expecting them to behave in a disciplined way is simply not right.

因此，理解他们的内在世界极其、极其重要。

So understanding what's going on inside of them is hugely, hugely important.

你是从发展角度来说的？

From a developmental perspective, you mean?

没错。从发展视角来看，包括身体神经生物学和心理学发展两方面。现有大量科学研究成果可惜未能普及给家长，这正是我们公司正在努力的方向之一。其次作为父母，我们为何会被触发情绪？为什么我会对某些事产生激烈反应？

That's right. From a developmental perspective, both from a physical, neurobiology, as well from a psychological development perspective. And there's huge amount of science out there that unfortunately hasn't been made available and accessible to parents, which is one of the things one of our companies is working on. And the second is as parents, why do we get triggered? Why did I get triggered in certain ways?

我的应激模式通常形成于自己的童年早期，可能是我内心不安全感在某些事情上的投射，这才导致我们容易被触发。比如，如果家长始终遗憾自己没上过名校并因此自我贬低，他们很可能对孩子要求更苛刻。当孩子成绩差时，这类家长更容易情绪失控。所以我们需要全面了解自我和童年经历，这样才能成为更好的父母。某种程度上，我参加很多工作坊时原以为只需要学习正面管教之类的技巧或方法就能成为好家长。

My reactive patterns, which were usually formed very early on in my own childhood, maybe my only insecurity gets reflected in certain things and then that's why we get triggered. So for example, if a parent always wished they went to the best schools and they were feeding down on themselves for not having gone to the best schools, they're probably going to be more demanding of the child. And if the child has bad grades, they probably tend to be more triggered. So there's all sorts of things we need to understand about our own self and our own childhood that would enable us to be a better parent. And so in some ways, I went into a lot of these workshops thinking that I just need to learn a tool or a trick or some kind of way like positive discipline or whatever it is to be a better parent.

这些工具和方法确实有一定帮助。但从根本上说，我需要先成为更好的'人'——打个引号——才能成为更好的父母。这完全取决于我们作为独立个体的内在成长，其实与为人父母的身份无关。这才是最根本的基石。第三点则是亲子关系场域中的动态。

And to a certain extent those tools and modalities help. But foundational wise, I needed to become a better person, quote unquote, in some ways to be a better parent. And that has to do everything to do with our inner journey as an independent person and has nothing to do with us being a parent actually. It's just that's something that it's really, really foundational. And then the third is what's in the relational field between a parent and a child.

时刻觉察这个关系场域至关重要。因为当关系场域出现问题时，再多的理性说教和分析都无济于事——孩子的大脑尚未发育成熟。当他们缺乏安全感和情感联结时，根本听不进任何话。典型家长看到孩子不听话时，反应往往是更清楚地重复指令，这其实没用。真正需要的是让孩子感受到安全和联结。

And becoming aware of that relational field any moment in time is really critical because when that relational field is not right, no amount of teaching on the rational side and analytical side will help because the kid's brain is underdeveloped. So when they don't feel safe and connected, they can't listen. When a typical parent sees a child children not listening, maybe their reaction is try to say things more clearly, you know, repeat things. It doesn't really help. And what's needed is for the children to feel safe and connected.

然后他们会百倍地倾听。所以这三个组成部分——理解孩子内心的世界、理解我们自己、理解关系场域，对我来说就是基础。在这个基础之上，还有许多非常实用的工具。我发现这极其重要。回顾过去，让我震惊的是为人父母可能是人生中最重要的职责。

And then they will listen a 100 times better. So these three components understanding the children inside of them, understanding ourselves, understanding the relational field, for me that's the foundation. Then on top of the foundation, there are lots of tools that's actually very useful. I find it that to be so important. It's shocking to me that now looking back that being a parent is probably the most important job in one's life.

没有什么比这更重要了。这可能是最困难的工作，而我们却最缺乏准备。我们上学学习数学，我们上驾驶课考驾照以便能开车。但为人父母，实际上没有任何准备。

There's nothing more important. It's probably the most difficult job and we are least prepared for in our lives. We go to school for teaching math. We go to get driving lessons to get a driver's license so we can drive. But to be a parent, there's practically no preparation.

如果我们审视这三个基础支柱，我认为这确实是个很好的提醒，让我们回归基本原则，至少按照你归纳的这些支柱来思考，这样就不会迷失在战术的海洋中，而缺乏处理它们的根本准则。对吧？因为你最终可能会拼凑出一个没有重点的弗兰肯斯坦式方法。比如我知道你探索过非暴力沟通，也研究过‘内在工作’——检验信念体系，嗯。

So if we look at those three foundational pillars, and I think it is really it's a really good reminder to sort of look at the first principles, at least as you've sort of arrived at them as these pillars, so that you don't get lost in a sea of tactics without any elemental discipline about how you approach them. Right? Because you can just end up with this Frankenstein's monster of approaches that doesn't really have any focus to it. I know that, for instance, you've explored nonviolent communication. I know you've explored, the work, so testing beliefs Mhmm.

你以某些方式实践着。人们如果查阅拜伦·凯蒂的著作能找到更多相关内容。还有哪些书籍、资源或工具，对你描述的这三个支柱中任何一个特别有效？

That you have in certain ways. People can find more on that if they look up the work in Byron Katie. What are other books or resources or tools that you have found particularly effective for you in in helping any of the pillars that you described, any of those three?

是的，我们正在努力。没错。我说的‘我们’是指我们成立了一家公司——我三四年前创立的，现在已经进行了三年的研发，试图收集最优质的育儿工具和儿童心理发展领域的最佳研究，整合成易于父母理解、可定制化的内容。

Yeah. Well, we are working on it. Yeah. Right. And we when I say we, that means we are starting I've started a company three, four years ago that we have done now, really three years of research and development, trying to collect the best parenting tools, the best research around child psychology and development into something that's accessible and easy and customized for parents to understand.

目前这项工作仍在继续，我们已有一个产品，但我觉得几个月后发布完整版时会更好。耗时这么久的原因之一是我意识到孩子类型千差万别，育儿挑战也截然不同。特定育儿方式只在特定情境对特定孩子有效，没有放之四海皆准的方法。因此整合所有工具并构建知识图谱框架至关重要，这样才能为不同孩子、父母和情境推荐合适的工具、模式与技巧。就我个人而言，在这个过程中‘携手育儿’（由帕蒂·维夫勒创立）对我特别有效。

Now that's ongoing and we have a product, but I think it will get better in the next couple of months when we launch the full version. But one of the things I find and the reason taking so long is I feel that there are so many different kinds of kids and the parenting challenges can be very different. And there are certain ways of parenting works for certain kids in certain situations and there's no one size fit all. So it's really important to collect all the tools out there and develop a framework, a knowledge graph so that the right tools and modalities and tricks can be recommended to the right children, the right parents, the right situation. For myself, as we work on this, one particular thing that has worked for me is something called hand in hand parenting started by this lady, Patty Wiffler.

有个网站叫Hand in Hand，搜索‘携手育儿’就能找到。我觉得他们的工具非常实用，特别强调亲子关系这个重点。虽然不确定对所有人都有用，但应该能帮到很多人。当然还有其他资源，不过我不太了解就不多提了。

And there's a website called Hand in Hand I think if you search for hand in hand parenting, I find their tools to be very useful for me. It has a particular emphasis on the relationship between children and parents. So that's a particular emphasis. But I'm not sure they would necessarily help everybody, but I think they can help a lot of people. So I think there are other more that can call, you know, I don't want to mention that because I don't know them as well.

但我认为在未来几个月内，我们的应用程序应该就能正式上线了。届时，我希望它能帮助到很多人。

But I think in the next couple of months, our app should be ready for prime time. And then, then I think, I'm hoping that will help a lot of people.

说到携手育儿。如果我没记错的话，你应该也花时间研究过《有意识领导的15项承诺》，但其中很多承诺——我们播客邀请过吉姆·德特默和戴安娜·查普曼来讨论——不仅适用于领导力，也适用于人际关系。实际上，我和女友目前正花大量精力将隐性协议（其实根本不算协议，只是假设）转化为明确承诺，这样能减少误解，增进理解。

So hand in hand parenting. I believe you have also, correct me if I'm wrong, spent some time with the 15 commitments of conscious leadership, but a lot of those commitments, you know, I've had Jim Detmer and, Diana Chapman on the podcast apply to personal relationships, not just leadership. And this is actually something my girlfriend and I are spending a good amount of time on right now is trying to make implicit agreements, which really aren't agreements, they're assumptions. Right? Implicit assumptions, explicit commitments so that there's cleaner understanding, less misunderstanding, etcetera.

我们可以探讨多个方向，我知道你在Evolve基金会和Evolve Ventures影响力投资方面都做了很多工作。大家可以通过EvolveVF（即vasinvictor,fasinfrank）找到这两个机构，网址是evolvevf.com。我想请教你，因为我知道你支持过相关研究，对这个领域相当熟悉。

We can go in a number of different directions, and I know that you're doing certainly a lot with Evolve both on the foundation side and on the Evolve Ventures impact investing side. People can find both at Evolve v f. That's vasinvictor,fasinfrank. So evolvevf.com. I would like to ask you because I know that you have supported research and have developed quite a bit of familiarity with the field.

你认为当前关于致幻剂及其治疗应用的讨论中，最缺失的是什么？

What do you think is missing right now from the discussion around psychedelics or therapeutics related to psychedelics at the moment?

我认为致幻剂是我们拥有的最强大的工具之一，既能治愈创伤，又能让我们体验到现实中被我们忽视的深层维度——那种与生俱来、充满爱与合一的安全感。这些体验本身就能带来深刻启示。对我而言，这些经历是个人旅程的起点而非终点，它们能极好地激励人们——就像带你乘坐直升机俯瞰地形，让你看清全局。

I think psychedelics is a one of the most powerful tools that we are given, both for healing of trauma, as well as opening ourselves up to a certain aspect of reality that has profound love and unity and safety that's inherent to us and to reality that we normally do not see. And those experiences simply just can be profound. For me, these experiences are the starting point rather than the end points of one's personal journey. I think they play an incredible role to motivate people. It's almost like, here, let me take you on a helicopter tour of the terrain so you can see what the big picture is.