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嘿，大家好。
Hey, folks.
我是蒂姆。
Tim here.
我与Exploding Kittens的优秀团队共同制作的畅销卡牌游戏《郊狼》，刚刚荣获2025年Pop Insider年度最 geek 游戏奖，以及2025年Made for Mums玩具奖的最佳圣诞礼物奖。
My best selling card game Coyote, which I made with the amazing team at Exploding Kittens, just won the Pop Insider best geeky game of 2025 and also best stocking filler in the Made for Mums Toy Awards twenty twenty five.
它在所有地方都在打折。
It is on sale everywhere.
它很便宜。
It's cheap.
它很容易上手。
It's fast to learn.
它有五分之四点八的评分。
It has 4.8 stars out of five.
人们都非常喜欢它。
People are loving it.
Coyotegame.com 会引导你到所有零售商，但你 everywhere 都能找到它。
Coyotegame.com will take you to all the retailers, but you can find it everywhere.
这是一款需要快速思考、更快大笑的游戏。
It is a game of thinking fast and laughing faster.
想象一下猜谜游戏、热土豆游戏和一堆脑力趣味的结合。
Think charades meets hot potato meets a bunch of brain fun.
这对你的大脑有好处。
It's good for your head.
它非常适合有10岁孩子的家庭，或者内心仍保有童真的成年人，或者不把自己太当回事的人。
It's perfect for families with kids aged 10 or adults who are kids at heart or don't take themselves too seriously.
许多成年人喜欢这款游戏。
A lot of adults love this game.
正如我所说，它在各个地方都有售。
And as I said, it's available everywhere.
亚马逊、沃尔玛、塔吉特，还有八千多个零售点，你想得到的地方都有。
Amazon, Walmart, Target, 8,000 plus retail locations, you name it.
所以请去了解一下。
So please check it out.
我非常喜欢制作这个游戏。
I loved making it.
人们真的非常喜欢它。
People are really enjoying it.
它在网上拥有超过三亿到四亿次的游戏玩法观看量。
It has 300 or 400,000,000 plus social views of gameplay online.
试试看吧。
And try it.
这个假期享受它吧。
Enjoy it this holiday season.
再去看看吧，coyotegame.com 再一次。
Check it out, coyotegame.com one more time.
那就是 coyotegame.com，或者你购买游戏的任何地方。
That's coyotegame.com or anywhere you buy your games.
现在回到本期节目。
Now back to the episode.
本期节目由Shopify赞助，这是我自己最喜爱的公司之一，他们生产了一些我最喜欢的产品。
This episode is brought to you by Shopify, one of my absolute favorite companies, and they make some of my favorite products.
Shopify正在革新全球数百万企业的商业模式，我从2008年或2009年就开始认识这个团队了。
Shopify is the commerce platform revolutionizing millions of businesses worldwide, and I've known the team since 2008 or 2009.
但在那之前，如果我在2000年初经营自己的电商企业时就能用上Shopify就好了。
But prior to that, I wish I had personally had Shopify in the early two thousands when I was running my own ecommerce business.
我在《四小时工作周》中讲过这个故事，但那时的工具简直糟糕透顶，我只能梦想拥有像Shopify这样的平台。
I tell that story in the four hour work week, but the tools then were absolutely atrocious, and I could only dream of a platform like Shopify.
事实上，正是你们，我亲爱的读者们，在2009年左右我向你们调查最佳电商平台时向我介绍了Shopify，自那以后，它变得越来越好。
In fact, it was you guys, my dear readers, who introduced me to Shopify when I polled all of you about best ecommerce platforms around 2009, and they've only become better and better since.
无论你是车库创业者，还是准备上市，Shopify都是你启动、运营和扩展业务所需的唯一工具，无需经历重重困难。
Whether you're a garage entrepreneur or getting ready for your IPO, Shopify is the only tool you need to start, run, and grow your business without the struggle.
Shopify让你掌控每一个销售渠道。
Shopify puts you in control of every sales channel.
无论你是通过Shopify的线下POS系统销售丝质床单，还是在Shopify的一体化电商平台销售有机橄榄油，
It doesn't matter if you're selling satin sheets from Shopify's in person POS system or offering organic olive oil on Shopify's all in one ecommerce platform.
只要你与客户互动的方式如何，都能得到全面覆盖。
However you interact with your customers, you're covered.
一旦你触达了目标受众，Shopify提供全互联网转化率最高的结账系统，帮助你将浏览者转化为买家。
And once you've reached your audience, Shopify has the Internet's best converting checkout to help you turn browsers into buyers.
Shopify支撑着美国10%的全部电子商务交易。
Shopify powers 10% of all ecommerce in The United States.
Shopify更是一个全球性力量，作为Allbirds、Rothys、Brooklinen以及全球170多个国家、各种规模的数百万创业者背后的电商解决方案，
And Shopify is truly a global force as the ecommerce solution behind Allbirds, Rothys, Brooklinen, and millions of other entrepreneurs of every size across more than 170 countries.
此外，Shopify屡获殊荣的客服团队会在你遇到问题时，全程提供支持，助你成功。
Plus Shopify's award winning help is there to support your success every step of the way if you have questions.
这是由Shopify赋能的无限可能。
This is Possibility powered by Shopify.
所以快去了解一下吧。
So check it out.
在 Shopify 注册一个每月 1 美元的试用期。
Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify.
那就是 s h o p I f y。
That's s h o p I f y.
Shopify.com/tim。
Shopify.com/tim.
前往 shopify.com/tim，今天就把你的业务提升到下一个水平。
Go to shopify.com/tim to take your business to the next level today.
再重复一次，全部小写：shopify.com/tip。
One more time, all lowercase, shopify.com/tip.
本集由 Eight Sleep 赞助播出。
This episode is brought to you by Eight Sleep.
温度是导致睡眠质量差的主要原因之一，而高温是我个人的克星。
Temperature is one of the main causes of poor sleep, and heat is my personal nemesis.
几十年来，我一直辗转反侧，把毯子踢开，又拉回来，一条腿搭在上面，如此反复，不胜其烦。
I've suffered for decades tossing and turning, throwing blankets off, pulling the back on, putting one leg on top, and repeating all of that ad nauseam.
但现在我入睡的速度创下了新纪录。
But now I am falling asleep in record time.
为什么？
Why?
因为我使用了一个朋友推荐给我的设备，叫做Eight Sleep的Pod Cover。
Because I'm using a device, it was recommended to me by friends, called the Pod Cover by Eight Sleep.
Pod Cover可以适配任何床垫，让你调节睡眠环境的温度，提供最理想的温度以获得最佳睡眠。
The Pod Cover fits on any mattress and allows you to adjust the temperature of your sleeping environment, providing the optimal temperature that gets you the best night's sleep.
借助Pod Cover的双区温控功能，你和你的伴侣可以分别将床的两侧温度设定为低至55度或高达110度。
With the Pod Cover's dual zone temperature control, you and your partner can set your sides of the bed to as cool as 55 degrees or as hot as 110 degrees.
依我经验来看，通常我的伴侣喜欢高温侧，而我喜欢非常非常凉爽的睡眠环境。
I think, generally, in my experience, my partners prefer the high side, and I like to sleep very, very cool.
所以别再争执了。
So stop fighting.
这很有帮助。
This helps.
根据您的生物特征、环境和睡眠阶段，Pod Cover会在整夜中自动调节温度，减少醒来次数并增加深度睡眠的比例。
Based on your biometrics, environment, and sleep stages, the Pod Cover makes temperature adjustments throughout the night that limit wake ups and increase your percentage of deep sleep.
除了卓越的温度调节功能外，Pod Cover的传感器还能在无需佩戴任何可穿戴设备的情况下追踪您的健康和睡眠数据。
In addition to its best in class temperature regulation, the Pod Cover sensors also track your health and sleep metrics without the need to use a wearable.
用顶尖的睡眠科技征服这个冬季，享受您最理想的睡眠温度。
Conquer this winter season with the best in sleep tech and sleep at your perfect temperature.
我许多生活在寒冷地区的听众——有时也包括我自己——喜欢在寒冷的一天后把床加热。
Many of my listeners in colder areas, sometimes that's me, enjoy warming up their bed after a freezing day.
如果您有伴侣，那就更好了。
And if you have a partner, great.
您可以分开温区，各自睡在最理想的温度下。
You can split the zones, and you can sleep at your own ideal temperatures.
很简单。
It's easy.
请前往 8sleep.com/tim（拼写为 8sleep.com/tim），这个冬天购买 Eight Sleep 的 Pod Cover 可节省 250 美元。
So go to 8sleep.com/tim, spelled out 8sleep.com/tim, and save $250 on the pod cover by Eight Sleep this winter.
Eight Sleep 目前向美国、加拿大、英国、欧盟部分国家以及澳大利亚发货。
Eight Sleep currently ships within The US, Canada, The UK, select countries in The EU, and Australia.
最优简约。
Optimal minimal.
在这个海拔高度，我能够全速跑半英里，直到双手开始颤抖。
This altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start to shake.
我可以回答你的私人问题吗？
Can I answer your personal question?
不行。
No.
我们只是看到一个
We're just seeing an
合适的时机。
appropriate time.
一个赛博格，金属内骨骼上覆盖着活体组织。
A cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.
诺亚·卡甘。
Noah Kagan.
蒂姆·费里斯。
Tim Ferriss.
好久不见了。
It's been a minute.
很高兴见到你。
Nice to see you.
见到你真好。
It's great to see you.
从音频角度来看，我们上一次合作已经是很久以前的事了。
It really So our last rodeo from an audio perspective was ages ago.
第75期播客，现在已接近700期了。
Number 75 on the podcast, now close to 700 episodes.
哇。
Wow.
是的。
Yeah.
那时，他是Facebook的第30号员工，迅速创办了四家公司，并通过力量训练增重了40磅。
And at that time, it was how Facebook's number 30 employee quickly built four businesses and gained 40 pounds with weight training.
我觉得我的标题随着时间推移越来越差了。
I feel like my headlines have deteriorated over time.
它们变得非常琐碎、平淡且描述性十足。
They've become very pedantic and pedestrian and descriptive.
这才是更好的文案。
That is better copy.
所以我需要好好改进一下这篇文案。
So I need to need to work on that copy.
也许这篇文案就是你自己起草的。
Maybe you drafted that copy yourself, actually.
据我所知，情况可能确实如此。
For all I know, that could have been the case.
我们有很多事情要谈。
We have a lot to talk about.
但对于那些没有背景信息的人来说
But for people who don't have any context
是啊，老兄。
Yeah, man.
你能做个简单的自我介绍吗？
Could you give a little self intro?
首先，很高兴见到你。
Great to see you, first off.
是的。
Yeah.
我也很高兴见到你。
It's been see you too.
很高兴见到你。
Great to see you.
我们现在有八百万美元的业务，这相当了不起。
Now we're at eight million dollar businesses, which is pretty amazing.
我是Facebook的第30号员工，是mint.com的第四号员工。
I was number 30 at Facebook, number four at mint.com.
我在英特尔当过很短暂的办公室小兵，那真糟透了，这促使我走上了创业之路。
I was a cubicle monkey at Intel for a very brief moment, which sucked, which led me to this entrepreneurship journey.
然后我创办了这么多不同的企业，有些失败了，有些成功了，现在我帮忙运营AppSumo.com，这是网上第一的软件优惠网站。
And then I've started so many different businesses that failed, some worked, now I help run appsumo.com, number one site online for software deals.
我每年的收入大约是八千万美元，这简直不可思议。
I do about $80,000,000 a year, which is unreal.
它最初是在一个周末里靠自筹资金启动的。
It started bootstrapped in a weekend.
当我看到这一点时，我简直不敢相信。
I couldn't believe it when I saw that.
真的不敢相信。
Can't believe it.
我记得
I remember
我记得当年AppSumo第一天的情况。
I remember day one of AppSumo effectively back in the day.
这真疯狂，你对此帮助很大。
It's been crazy, and you're big help with it.
你在推动它起步方面提供了巨大帮助。
You're a super big help with getting it going.
谢谢你。
So thank you.
不客气。
You're welcome.
你的YouTube频道表现不错，有一百万订阅者。
YouTube channel has done pretty well, million subs.
我即将出版一本《百万美元周末》的书，帮助人们。
Got a book million dollar weekend coming out to help people.
这与我们的工作周非常相似，都是相互支持。
Very similar complimentary to for our work week.
嗯。
Mhmm.
而我们今天就在这里。
And we're here today.
所以让我们重温一下记忆吧，因为很久以前，2011年。
So let's let's do a little trip down memory lane because ages ago, 2011.
这要追溯到很久以前了。
So this is going back a ways.
我们认识已经很久了。
We've known each other a long time.
我记得我们第一次见面，我想是在加利福尼亚州山景城的一家咖啡馆。
I remember when we first met, I wanna say, at a coffee shop in Mountain View, California
是的。
Yes.
在卡斯特罗。
On Castro.
我记得那个。
I remember that.
自那以来发生了许多事情。
And a lot has transpired since.
在这次对话中，我们将涵盖很多内容，并深入探讨许多策略。
We're gonna cover quite a bit of it and get into a lot of tactics in this conversation.
诺亚总是能提供具体的、切实可行的建议、脚本，等等。
Noah always is able to deliver specifics, concrete, recommended actions, scripts, you name it.
我们将深入探讨所有这些精彩内容。
We're gonna get into all that juicy stuff.
但你在2011年曾在我博客上发表过一篇客座博文。
But you had a guest blog post on my blog in 2011.
我很容易就忘记了。
And it's easy for me to forget.
对有些人来说，很容易忘记或根本意识不到，对我来说，博客才是连接一切的纽带，包括我的第一本书，因为博客是在书之前发布的。
It's easy for some people to forget or just not realize that the blog for me was really the connective tissue that permitted everything else, including the first book because the blog came out before the book.
你写的那篇博客文章是什么内容？
And what was that blog post that you put together?
如何在周末打造一家百万美元的企业，主角是吉娃娃。
How to create a million dollar business in a weekend featuring chihuahuas.
而那篇文章，正是这本书的起点。
And that, that started this book.
没错。
Yeah.
那篇文章开启了我大量分享我的方法。
That started a lot of me sharing my approach.
没错。
Yeah.
那真是太疯狂了。
And that was wild.
而且它引起了极大的共鸣。
And it resonated incredibly well.
顺便说一下，如果你好奇当年促成瑞安·霍利迪成为现代斯多葛主义代表人物的那些因素。
Funny sidebar also, if you're curious about some of the ingredients in the cocktail that contributed to Ryan Holiday becoming the face of modern stoicism way back in the day.
我想博客上那篇文章叫《斯多葛主义入门》。
I think it was called stoicism one zero one on the blog.
是的。
Yeah.
所以人们可以去看看蒂姆的博客。
So people can take a look at Tim.
那篇博客文章。
Blog for that.
但让我们先从一个完全无关的问题开始，这是一个地理问题。
But let's start with a completely oblique question, which is a geographic question.
所以我们现在坐在德克萨斯州的奥斯汀，就在我们开始录制之前，你提到巴塞罗那已经成为新的奥斯汀。
So we're sitting here in Austin, Texas, and before we started recording, you said something along the lines of Barcelona is the new Austin.
你能
Can you
详细说说吗？
expand on this?
在我们上一期节目中，你提到你在奥斯汀。
You know, in our last show, which was you were talking like, hey, you're in Austin.
你当时住在旧金山。
I'm living you were living in San Francisco.
跟我说说吧。
You know, tell me about it.
你说你确实考虑过。
And you're like, yeah, I thought about it.
现在我们住在奥斯汀。
And now we're here living in Austin.
我们现在在这儿。
Now we're here.
在我的人生中，我确实能比较早地发现一些机会。
And I do think in my my life, I've been able to pick things a little early.
比如早早地抓住了Facebook、Mint、社交游戏、Groupon和AppSumo这类平台，还有SaaS企业。
Facebook a little early, Mint a little early, social games a little early, Groupon kind of appsumo.com early, SaaS businesses early.
所以我选择奥斯汀也很早，甚至可以说是超早。
And so even choosing Austin early and over Super early.
你是什么时候搬到奥斯汀的？
When did you get to Austin?
十四年前。
Fourteen years ago.
十四年。
Fourteen.
是啊。
Yeah.
当时别人都说：你去那儿干嘛？
Which people were like, what are you doing out there?
我当时就想，我都不知道德克萨斯州那里具体在哪儿，但感觉很棒。
And I was like, I don't even know where it is in Texas, but it's great.
而且，六年前，我来自哥伦比亚热带的朋友丹和艾恩对我说：‘来巴塞罗那待一个月吧。’
And, you know, for me, six years ago, my buddies Dan and Ian from Tropic Columbia, they're like, come out to Barcelona for a month.
我到了之后心想，还不错。
I got there and I was like, that's okay.
我当时想，奥斯汀这儿真热啊。
And I was like, it's very hot here in Austin.
所以我心想，好吧，我去那儿吧。
So I was like, alright, I'll go out there.
几周后，我开始热衷于骑自行车。
And after a few weeks, I'm really into cycling.
我喜欢紧身衣，但真正让我着迷的是那里世界级的骑行环境。
I'm into the spandex, but really the cycling out there was just it's world class.
那里就是兰斯·阿姆斯特朗成名的地方。
It's where Lance Armstrong got famous.
其实就是他让加泰罗尼亚的赫罗纳这座城市出名的。
Like, it's what he made famous, actually, in a city called Girona.
于是我去了那里，我们开始训练，晚上喝酒，开始吃喝。
And so I got out there, and we started training, started drinking at night, started eating.
那里的价格太棒了。
The prices are amazing.
那里就有一片海滩。
There's a beach right there.
那简直就是没有一堆破事的加州，而且便宜多了。
It's basically California without all the bullshit and a lot cheaper.
这真是个不错的推销话术。
That's a good sales pitch.
是啊。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
人们常说，你想去加州吗？
People are like, you wanna go to California?
不，谢谢，我不想。
Like, no, thank you.
我确实很喜欢加州。
I do love California.
它绝对是我的家之一。
It's definitely one of my homes.
于是我开始每年夏天都去那里。
And so I just started going there every single summer.
而今年，我在那里待了一百四十三天。
And now this year, spent one hundred and forty three days.
那里真是太棒了。
And it's just amazing.
更让人惊讶的是，我在那里认识的女友现在怀孕了，简直不可思议。
And then what's even wild is my girlfriend who I met there, and now she's pregnant, which is insane.
她说西班牙人的预期寿命实际上比美国人还要高。
She was saying that the life expectancy of Spaniards is actually higher than Americans.
我相信这一点。
I believe that.
我跟她聊过这个，这还挺有意思的。
I was talking to her about this and that's kinda interesting.
也就是说，你难道不想住在人们寿命更长的地方吗？
It's like, well, wouldn't you wanna live where people live longer?
嗯，没错。
Like, yeah.
所以那里食物更新鲜，一切都可步行到达。
So to have fresher food, everything is walkable.
你一下楼，就想去买个番茄，结果旁边就有家蔬菜店。
So you're like going downstairs, you're like, well, gonna go get a tomato and there's a vegetable store.
然后还有肉店和奶酪店。
And then there's a meat store and a cheese store.
那里有社区氛围。
You have community there.
她来的时候就住在我家。
We're here where she comes she lives in my house here.
我们住在西部。
We live out in the West.
她问：你平时见得到人吗？
She's like, do you see anyone ever?
你平时跟人说话吗？
Do you ever talk to anyone?
她问：人都去哪儿了？
She's like, where where is everyone?
所有这些因素加在一起，再加上生活成本更低。
And so all these factors combined plus the the cost of living is cheaper.
现在我们每年至少在那里待半年。
It's just been where now we're spending at least half a year out there.
我想社交纽带也会更多。
A lot more social fabric too, would imagine.
我对巴塞罗那了解不多。
I haven't experienced Barcelona much.
我在那里待过一小段时间。
I've spent a little bit of time there.
对于对探戈感兴趣的人来说，那里有很棒的探戈氛围。
Great tango scene for people who may be interested.
但在马德里——我待得更久的地方，人们都外出社交，成群的朋友和家庭随处可见。
But in Madrid where I spent a bit more time, people are out, they're socializing, groups of friends, families.
你更能感受到一种凝聚力，至少看起来技术可能改变了这一点，现在在西班牙，人们更像是《头号玩家》里的角色。
You just see more cohesion and at least it seems maybe technology has changed this and people are more ready player one now in Spain.
有可能。
It's possible.
这在大多数地方都是真的，但相比我通常在美国观察到的情况，自我强加的孤立现象要少一些。
It's true most places, but less self imposed isolation than I observe in The US normally.
更少的孤立，更漂亮的人。
Less isolation, better looking people.
直说吧。
Straight up.
那里有更高密度的绝美人群。
It's got a higher density of really gorgeous people.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，奥斯汀是个挺有吸引力的城市。
I mean, Austin's a pretty attractive town.
还行吧。
It's okay.
取决于
Depends on
你往哪儿看。
where you're looking at.
这要看情况。
It depends.
是的。
Yeah.
但就骑自行车而言，这里的设施是世界级的，我最喜欢的是
But it's just for cycling, it's world class, all the I like
留着男发髻和腿部纹身的男性。
men with man buns and leg tattoos.
这就是奥斯汀。
That's Austin.
好的，好的，好的。
Okay, okay, okay.
你来对了
You're on
地方。
the right place.
但能够找到这个地方并在那里和这里生活，这一切都是一种莫大的福气。
But like just everything about it has been such a blessing to be able to find that and be able to live my life there and here.
你可以两者兼顾。
You can do both.
那么我们继续谈别的事情。
So we're gonna move on to other things.
但在那之前，是的。
But before we do Yeah.
巴塞罗那，我们先来对比一下。
Barcelona, let's start with a contrast.
由于种种原因，奥斯汀已经成为了一些我原本认为五年前可能难以预料的事物的中心。
So Austin, for a host of different reasons, has become a nexus for a few things that I think we could have expected looking back say, five years ago.
我们本来可以预料到科技，对吧？
We could have expected tech, right?
从税收等方面来看，科技早就已经在这里了。
Tech was already here from a taxation perspective, etcetera.
这很有道理。
It made a lot of sense.
新冠疫情加速了这一切。
COVID accelerated all of that.
因此，你看到了科技的爆炸式增长。
So you've seen an explosion of tech.
我的意思是，就在我们坐的地方附近，有一整栋摩天大楼，不知道有多少层，四五十层，将完全属于谷歌，但目前尚未正式投入商业运营。
I mean, striking distance of where we're sitting, there is an entire skyscraper, who knows how many floors, forty, fifty floors that is going to be exclusively Google, and which has not yet been opened commercially speaking.
对吧？
Right?
底层只有几家零售店。
There are few retail shops at the bottom.
我认为这某种程度上是可以预见的。
That I think is somewhat predictable.
我原本无法预测、也不会预测的是，奥斯汀已经成为了全球巴西柔术的圣地，而不仅仅是在美国。
The things I couldn't have predicted or wouldn't have predicted, Austin has become the mecca of Brazilian jujitsu in the world, not just in The United States.
它现在已经成为，或者至少正在成为喜剧、单口喜剧的中心，嗯。
It is, if not already, certainly becoming an epicenter for comedy, stand up comedy Mhmm.
在很多方面，这要归功于乔·罗根以及他在这里开设的俱乐部。
In many ways, thanks to Joe Rogan and his club that he has opened here.
你觉得呢？有没有什么事让你突然意识到：‘等等，是这样’？
What do you think, if anything, you were like, you know what?
在未来五到十年里，我打赌巴塞罗那可能会在某个领域火起来。
In the next five to ten years, I bet Barcelona could be hot for x.
有什么想法吗？
Is there anything that comes to mind?
因为我一直把奥斯汀看作一个高度多元化的城市，没有被单一产业主导。
Because I always looked at Austin as this highly diversified town that was not dominated by a single industry.
这正是当初吸引我的地方，和旧金山湾区相比，对吧？
That's part of what appealed to me compared to say SF Bay Area, right?
现在看来，情况并没有完全如我预期的那样发展，但奥斯汀的一些主导社群和产业正变得越来越清晰？
Now, hasn't quite worked out as I anticipated, but certain dominant communities and industries are becoming clear now in Austin?
有什么想法吗，嗯。
Any thoughts on Yeah.
巴塞罗那？
Barcelona?
说到奥斯汀，我还会加上内容创作者。
I would say with Austin, I'd also add content creators.
有很多规模相当大的YouTube播客在奥斯汀兴起。
There's a lot of pretty sizable YouTube podcasts that have become in Austin.
假日，我，你。
Holiday, me, you.
嗯。
Yep.
确实有很多其他人搬到了这里。
Definitely a lot of other people that have moved out here.
对我来说，巴塞罗那可能是全球远程办公之都。
I would say for Barcelona, for me specifically, it's I can see it being the remote working capital of the world.
对吧？
Right?
是的，那里的工作时间有点不规律，所以你可能想去南美洲，但就拥有一个大都市而言，尤其是在奥斯汀，这里夏天非常热。
Where, yes, the hours are a little off, so maybe you'd wanna go South America, but potentially, like, just for having a metropolitan city, especially in Austin, it's hot here.
一年有四个月。
Four months a year.
是的。
Yeah.
所以有四个月要
So for four months To
澄清一下，我们说的热是指摄氏度，各位。
be clear, what we mean by hot sorry, centigrade folks.
我不知道怎么换算，但我们说的是大约43到49摄氏度。
I don't know how to convert this, but we're talking like one ten to one twenty.
差不多有一半的时间都是这样。
It's like a of the time.
38到40摄氏度。
38 to 40 Celsius.
你的狗不能在外面走路。
Your dog cannot walk outside.
我的狗的爪子真的会变成煎蛋。
My dog's feet will literally turn into omelettes.
你之前给我看你家地板被太阳晒得真的都烧焦了。
Well, you were showing me your floor is literally burnt in your place from the sun.
被太阳晒的。
From the sun.
是啊。
Yeah.
前任房主留下了遮阳帘，整个地板都被太阳晒得褪色了。
The previous owner the previous owner left the solar shades up and the entire floor was bleached by the sun.
但你知道，你去巴塞罗那，找个共享办公空间，去一个 coworking 地方，那里有很多这样的地方。
But, yeah, you know, you go to Barcelona, I get a co working spot, go to one co worker, there's so many out there.
每月500美元，你可以得到一个很棒的办公桌，以及无处不在的超快Wi-Fi。
$500 a month, you get an awesome desk, you get really, really fast Wi Fi everywhere.
你可以使用ukio.com，ukio.com。
You can use ukio.com, ukio.com.
这就像Airbnb，但更便宜。
It's like Airbnb, but even cheaper.
超棒的公寓。
Super sick apartments.
别现在用，因为我还得预订我的住处。
Don't use it yet because I need to book my place.
祝你好运。
Good luck.
嗯。
Yeah.
然后你还可以在周末去这些令人惊叹的城市逛一逛。
And then you have, like, you know, you can go to all these amazing cities in a weekend.
所以你有普赫尔达，那里比太浩湖更好，山脉更大，人也没那么多。
So you got, like, Pucherda, which is, like, better than Lake Tahoe, bigger mountains, not as crowded.
你还有西班牙的布拉瓦海岸，那是加州海岸。
You've got Costa Brava, which is California coast.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但更棒的是，它带有欧洲风格。
But even better, it's, like, European style.
你有裸体海滩。
You have naked beaches.
嗯。
Mhmm.
男女都可以，随你喜好。
Both genders, so whatever you want.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我们长期以来去错了海滩，这取决于你怎么看，然后我的朋友说，我们沿着海滩走下去吧。
We were going to the wrong beach, depending on how you look at it for a long time, then my buddy says, let's go down the beach.
所有这些特色元素真正让这个夏天变得美好。
All these varietal things that that really make it a nice summer.
我喜欢这种平衡：在这里奥斯汀拥有亲密感，嗯。
And I like the balance of having both where there's the intimacy of being here in Austin Mhmm.
你可以去Uchi，像你我这样的人，这里有很多有趣的人。
Where you can go to Uchi, you people have like you and me, and there's a lot of interesting people here.
但当夏天炎热时，哇，随着创业和远程工作的兴起，巴塞罗那在一年中的其他时间成了绝佳的第二家园。
But then also when it's hot in summer, wow, now with entrepreneurship, now with remote work, Barcelona is a great second home for the rest of the year.
我想问一下正在听的朋友们，我知道在一些欧洲国家有这样的情况。
Tactical question for people listening, and I know this exists in some European countries.
有没有类似数字游民签证的东西，还是说嗯。
Is there the equivalent of a digital nomad visa, or is it Yeah.
所以，我遇到的是更复杂的情况。
So I'm something that's more complicated.
这比人们说的要复杂得多。
It's way more complicated than people sound.
所以我昨天刚跟一位美国和欧洲的移民律师通完电话。
So I literally got off the phone with a immigration lawyer for US and Europe yesterday.
我和两边都谈了。
I talked to both
他们。
of them.
这跟我们整个对话都有关联，我稍后会说明这一点，但请继续。
And this ties into our entire conversation, and I'll make that connection in a minute, but please continue.
所以你刚挂了电话。
So you got off the phone.
这没看起来那么简单。
It's not as easy as it seems.
基本上，西班牙有一个数字游民签证。
There's basically there's a nomad visa for Spain.
对吧？
Right?
而且说清楚，我花了十八个月，到现在还没办成。
And to be clear, it's taken me eighteen months, and I still don't have it.
哇。
Wow.
我也有
And I have
一家相当规模的公司。
a pretty sizable company.
我有相当可观的银行存款。
I have a pretty sizable bank account.
我上过大学——这是必须的，我还聘请了律师事务所来处理所有这些文件，但还是没搞定。
I went to a college, which you have to do, and I've used a law firm to follow all these papers, and I'm still not there.
所以当你与其他国家打交道时，即使在美国，也有大量的官僚程序。
So sometimes when you're dealing with other countries, even in America, there's a lot of bureaucracy.
所以这是一种方法。
So that's one way to do it.
这可能会花很多时间。
That could take a lot of time.
第二种是黄金签证。
Second one is the golden visa.
所以你要花五十万美元
So you spend half 1,000,000
在西班牙。
In Spain.
在西班牙购买房产，然后你就可以在那里获得签证。
In Spain on a property, and then you can be able to get a visa there.
我们接下来要讨论的另一种方式叫做‘同居伴侣’。
The other one that we're gonna be approaching the way I'm gonna do it is called the Pareja de Echo.
所以，如果你能遇到一位真正的公民，你不必真正结婚，只需与他们同居并生活在一起即可。
So if you can meet someone who is actually a citizen, you don't have to actually be married, you just have to live with them and be with them.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
你可以在那里获得居留权。
You can get your residency there.
所以我和我女朋友就是这么做的。
So that's what I'm doing with my girlfriend.
我明白了。
I see.
所以这是一种方法。
And so that is one approach.
获得你的绿卡。
Getting your green card.
为了拿到我的绿卡，我将合法地越过边境前往那里。
To be able to get my green I'm coming through the border legally over there.
但除此之外，它只是一个三个月的旅游签证。
But, otherwise, it's it's a three month tourist visa.
我觉得杜马签证听起来很棒。
I think the Duma Visa it sounds great.
就是整整十八个月，我不知道，花一千五百美元，还是一无所获。
It's just literally eighteen months and, I don't know, $1,500, still nothing.
是的。
Yeah.
这确实是个巨大的投入，就能量层面而言。
That's a lift, I mean, in terms of energy commitment.
我之所以想谈这个，以及它为什么与所有事情都相关，是因为我喜欢我们的对话，部分原因是我能从中学到很多关于你个人和职业上最新、最前沿的实验内容。
And the reason I wanted to cover this and the reason it ties into everything is that I enjoy our conversations in part because I learn a lot about the latest and greatest of whatever you've experimented with personally and professionally.
而个人层面的部分可不是小事，对吧？
And the personal part is not a small thing, right?
因为你可以创造出一个由你自己打造的、属于自己的牢笼式企业。
Because you can create a business that is a monster of your own making, a jail of your own making.
这非常容易。
It's very easy.
真的很容易做到。
It's very easy to do.
我认为这就是默认情况。
That is the default, I would say.
你也可以设计一种允许你做你所描述之事的业务。
And you can also design a business that allows you to do the type of thing that you're describing.
这两种是根本不同的方法。
And those are fundamentally different approaches.
它们很少会偶然发生。
They seldom happen by accident.
那么，我们直接进入百万美元周末的话题吧？
So why don't we hop into the million dollar weekend?
我还可以再分享一个每个人都可以考虑的额外签证技巧。
I can do one more bonus visa thing that everyone can consider.
很好。
Great.
额外的就像一个小秘密，其实还挺有意思的。
Bonus is like a little secret thing that it's actually kinda interesting.
许多国家如果能追溯你的家谱，比如通过23andMe或询问你的祖父母，你实际上可以通过这种方式获得公民身份。
A lot of countries, if you can find your genealogy, use 23andMe or talk to your grandparents, you can actually get your citizenship through that.
我的曾祖父来自波兰。
So my great grandfather is from Poland.
所以这一直是我考虑的一个途径——如果你能找到相关文件，而我们已经找到一些了。
So that's been one avenue I've been considering where if you can actually find documents, which we've been able to find some
嗯。
Mhmm.
我可以获得波兰公民身份，从而成为欧盟公民的一部分。
I can get Poland citizenship, which is then part of the EU citizenship.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，如果我没有女朋友，这也是另一种入境方式。
So that is another way of getting in if I didn't have a girlfriend.
对于在座的各位，去查一下你的祖先，看看你的祖籍国是否能为你提供公民身份。
For people out there, go look up your ancestry and see if that country will be able to give you a citizenship.
嗯。
Yeah.
不同国家对于追溯 ancestry 的远近，宽容度和接受度也各不相同。
And different countries have different degrees of leniency slash acceptance depending on how far back you go.
我的朋友丹·安德鲁斯总是说：别只为了护照而结婚。
My buddy Dan Andrews always says, he's like, be mindful of marrying the passport.
因为我女朋友是委内瑞拉人，但住在葡萄牙，而我们现在在西班牙。
Because my girlfriend is Venezuelan but lives in Portugal, but we're in Spain.
所以现在想让她进入美国，简直是一场噩梦。
So it's just a lot of things now to get her in America has been a nightmare.
让她进来太难了。
Get her in super challenging.
真的。
Real
这简直难到离谱。
it's ridiculously challenging.
而且人们正试图从南部边境 crossing。
And the people are trying to get across the border down south.
我觉得，如果那样更容易的话，也许我们就这么干。
I'm like, if that's easier, maybe we'll just do that.
我背起你，带你过去。
I'll put you on my back and carry you.
是的。
Yeah.
顺便说一句，如果我们把这当作一个完全独立的话题来谈。
Side note, if we look at this is a whole separate conversation.
但如果我们看一下出生率的急剧下降，没错，我们的人口增长已经达不到替代水平，这与许多工业化国家的GDP增长等息息相关，而美国真正的一个优势就是移民，吸引全球人才。
But if we look at the plummeting birth rates, right, we are not meeting replacement rates for population growth, which is then correlated to GDP growth and so on in so many industrialized countries, the one advantage The US has really is immigration, attracting talent globally.
因此，让移民过程变得简单或更容易，对美国的经济和国家安全未来至关重要。
So making it easy or easier is really mission critical to the economic and sort of national security future of The United States.
百分之百。
A 100%.
这也没人们想的那么容易。
It's also not as easy as people realize.
比如，我跟律师商量过，想帮她拿到去美国的签证，另一位签证律师。
Like, was talking with the lawyer to get her into America, the other the other visa lawyer.
在《90天未婚夫》这个节目里，就是说，好吧，你有了一个未婚夫。
And, you know, in in ninety Day Fiance, that show, it's like, okay, you get a fiance.
砰，砰，砰。
Boom, boom, boom.
不。
No.
事情不是这样的。
It's not like that.
你需要等很长时间。
You have to wait a lot of time.
你需要花很多钱。
You have to spend a lot of money.
你不能离开这个国家。
You can't leave the country.
如果你在美国办理，她几个月都不能离开。
Either you if you do it in in America, she can't leave for months.
是的。
Yeah.
或者如果我们在西班牙办理，她几年都不能进入美国。
Or if we do it in Spain, she can't come into America for years.
是的。
Yeah.
这极其棘手，极其复杂。
It's incredibly tricky, incredibly complicated.
所以让我们退一步说说开始的事情。
So let's zoom out for a second, and we're gonna talk about starting.
我们要谈谈在很短的时间内启动业务或构思业务的初始阶段和流程。
We're gonna talk about the initial stages and process for building a business or concepting a business in a very short period of time.
我们马上就会谈到这一点，稍后诺亚还会带来一个挑战兼竞赛活动，你绝对不能错过。
So we are gonna get to that, and we are gonna have a challenge slash competition offer from Noah later that you're not gonna wanna miss.
所以请继续关注这个部分。
So stick around for that.
我对此完全不负责任。
I absolve all responsibility.
诺亚已经口头承诺为我承担世界上所有的赔偿责任。
Noah has has verbally committed to all the indemnities in the world for me.
这完全是诺亚的事情。
This is this is Noah's thing.
但我想谈谈运营AppSumo的事，因为在为这次对话做准备之前，我根本没想到它已经成长得如此庞大。
But I wanna talk about running AppSumo because prior to doing the homework for this conversation, I had no idea that it had grown so much.
嗯。
Mhmm.
真是太惊人了。
It was wild.
对吧？
Right?
我每年卖出八千万美元的业务。
I sell 80,000,000 a year business.
这太疯狂了。
That's bananas.
我好奇的是，作为这样一家公司的首席执行官是什么感觉。
And what I'm curious about is being the CEO of such a company.
你能先给我们介绍一下这家公司的基本情况吗？比如组织架构？
Could you give us an idea of what the company looks like, first of all, just in terms of basic org chart?
比如，有多少全职员工？
Like, how many full time employees?
你是如何思考公司结构的？
How you think about structuring the company?
这挺有意思的。
It's been interesting.
有一件事，你知道，特别是对于《百万美元周末》来说，这是我所使用的实战手册。
And one thing, you know, especially for Million Dollar Weekend, which is what I've been able to it's the playbook I used.
嗯。
Mhmm.
它最初只是我一个人在海特-阿什伯里区的地下室里，花了48美元起步。
And it started with just me in a basement in Haight Ashbury for $48.
这对他们来说太不可思议了。
And that's what's crazy to them.
好吧。
Okay.
每个人都不需要很多钱或时间就能达到这个阶段。
Everyone doesn't have to have a lot of money or time to be able to get to this point.
所以这真的很奇妙。
And so that is kind of wild.
嗯。
Mhmm.
有低成本、低风险启动的行动方案，可以逐步建立你所描述的或更大的企业，是的。
There are playbooks for starting low cost, starting low risk, incrementally building something that can become the type of business that you're describing or larger Yeah.
或者根据你的优先级决定是否如此。
Or not depending on your priorities.
没错。
Exactly.
对我来说，这正是我离开旧金山的原因。
And for me, it's being able to that's why I left SF.
我想生活。
I wanted to live.
我不是为了整天工作而在这里。
I'm not here just to work all day.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我才在巴塞罗那。
And that's why I'm in Barcelona.
我想在享受生活和以我想要的方式赚钱之间取得良好的平衡。
It's like, I wanna have a good balance of enjoying life and making money the way I want.
所以今天在sumo.com，我们有大约75名全职同事。
And so at sumo.com today, we have about 75 full time teammates.
我觉得‘员工’这个词有点过时了。
I think the word employee is just kind of archaic.
嗯。
Mhmm.
然后可能还有25名全职承包商。
And then maybe 25 full time contractors.
这些人员分布在六个不同的部门。
And so that's broken out about six different departments.
我们有产品工程部、销售部、业务发展部、市场部、运营部。
So we have product engineering department, sales, business development department, marketing department, operations.
我们在AppSumo上寻找全球最优惠的交易，进行谈判、查看价格，然后把它们放到网站上。
So we go get the best deals on the planet at AppSumo, negotiate and seeing prices, and then we have to get it on the website.
所以有一支团队专门负责这件事。
So there's a team that helps to do that.
客户支持团队、人事团队，以及财务和商业智能团队。
Customer support team, people team, and then a finance and business intelligence team.
这些员工是分布式的吗？
And are those employees distributed?
他们有固定的工作地点吗？
Do they have locations?
我觉得他们是真实的。
I think they're real.
我想他们都有工作地点。
I guess they all have locations.
他们设有办公室。
Think do have offices.
这些年来，我们反复折腾过好多次了，老兄。
We've gone back and forth over the years, man.
我一开始是在地下室工作的。
Like, I started in a basement.
我搬到了奥斯汀，然后我们在这里有了办公室。
I made every move to Austin, and then we got an office here.
现在我们是远程办公，为同事提供协同办公空间补贴。
Now we're remote, and we're doing stipends for coworking spots.
针对部分
For some
团队成员进行一项实验，看看我们是否能帮助他们布置好家庭办公室或协同办公环境。
of the teammates as an experiment to see if we can actually help them either get their home office set up or coworking set up.
我们试过办公室。
We've tried the office.
但似乎人们并不真的去。
It didn't seem like people actually go.
我们现在有一个。
We have one now.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我不知道人们会不会去。
I don't know if people go.
我真的完全不清楚，但我们确实已经把每月的开支从大约5万美元缩减了。
I literally have no clue, but we've definitely downsized from about 50,000 a month.
我觉得我们现在的办公室每月是3500美元。
I think our office now is $3,500 a month.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我本来想问问你平时用哪些CEO框架。
I was gonna ask you about CEO frameworks that you use on an ongoing basis.
所以我们回头再聊这个。
So we're gonna come back to that.
但既然你提到了缩减规模，我想立刻给听众一些实用的建议，因为我们想先提供一些‘斯库比零食’来保持大家的注意力。
But since you talked about downsizing, and I wanna give somebody who's listening something tactical right away because we wanna front load some of those Scooby Snacks to keep everybody listening.
你是一个非常积极主动的谈判者，这可以体现在向咖啡店讨价还价上，我觉得我们应该简单回顾一下。
You are a very proactive negotiator, and that can range from asking for a discount on coffee, which I think we should revisit briefly
是的，老兄。
Yes, dude.
到你为新冠疫情制定的35计划，我认为是这样。
To the 35 plan, I believe, that you had for COVID.
我想可能是降低了销售目标，假设5%的利润率，我想知道你是如何把价格谈下来的。
I think it was maybe dropping sales goals, assuming a 5% profit margin, And something like I'd like to know how you negotiate things down.
比如，你有哪些关键的策略？
Like what are some of the key approaches?
比如说，有人正在考虑租用一个实际上没怎么使用的办公空间，或者他们在查看信用卡账单，试图紧缩开支，因为他们想在创业上大胆尝试，但又希望留出一定的安全边际。
So let's say somebody's looking at lease of a space for an office that's not really being used, or they're looking at their credit card statement, and they're trying to tighten the belt because they wanna take some swings in entrepreneurship, but they wanna feel a margin of safety.
对吧？
Right?
你是怎么处理这种情况的？
How do you approach this?
那关键是什么？
What are some of the keys to that?
因为我知道你在这方面很有经验。
Because this is something I know you have a lot of practice with.
好吧。
Okay.
我不会讲犹太笑话，但我确实喜欢好交易。
I'm not gonna do Jewish jokes, but, I I love a good deal.
我得到的全部就是这些。
That's absolutely what I got is all
方式。
the way.
不。
No.
但要明确的是，这很犹太。
It is Jewish, to be clear.
好的。
Okay.
我来分享一下我如何应对谈判以及如何争取更优惠价格的几点做法。
A few things of how I like to approach negotiating and and getting better prices on things.
首先，这听起来可能有点反直觉，但我总是说我很不擅长谈判。
First off, this is gonna be counterintuitive, but I always say I'm really bad at negotiating.
这是我开场的第一句话。
That's my first line.
你对跟你谈判的那个人这么说。
You say that to the person you're negotiating against.
对吧？
Right?
每次都这样。
Every time.
嗯。
Uh-huh.
明白了。
Got it.
这里的思路是，第一，我确实不擅长。
And the idea here is, one, I am bad.
因为我真正关心的是，我不想花太多时间。
Because what I'm interested in is, like, I don't really wanna spend a lot of time.
我想了解你想要什么。
I want to understand what you want.
如果我知道你想要什么，而你也对得到的东西满意，并且在我能接受的范围内，那就成了。
And if I know that what you want and you're happy with what you get and it's within my circle, that's it.
我不想花太多时间去真正地讨价还价。
I don't wanna spend so much time actually negotiating.
所以我认为这能降低对方的戒备。
So and I think that lowers people's defense.
而且因为我确实不擅长讨价还价。
As well where I'm just not really good at negotiating.
我想确保你得到你想要的。
I wanna make sure you get what you want.
嗯。
Mhmm.
然后人们就会说，太好了。
And then people are like, oh, great.
所以这是第一点。
So that's number one.
第二点，没人真的喜欢被内疚感驱使。
Second thing, no one really wants to be guilted.
我有个犹太妈妈。
I have a Jewish mother.
我知道什么是内疚。
I know about guilt.
对吧？
Right?
犹太巧克力之所以叫‘内疚’，是有原因的。
That there's a reason Jewish chocolate's called guilt.
对吧？
Right?
这可不是巧合。
Like, it's not a coincidence.
但第二点是，没人会被内疚感逼着对你产生工作热情。
But the second thing is no one will be guilted into being excited to work with you.
互联网是个小地方。
And the Internet is a small place.
世界是个小地方。
The world is a small place.
我和你，我们认识多久了？
Me and you, how long have been together?
你当初开始做什么了？
You started what?
你的书是2007年的吗？
Your book 2007?
是的。
Yeah.
书是2007年出版的，2005年开始写的。
The book came out in 2007, started writing in 2005.
所以我们是2007年、2008年认识的。
So we met 2007, 2008.
2006年？
2006?
2007年。
2007.
也许更早。
Maybe earlier.
那是在2000年之前的事了。
It was before It 2000 comes around.
嗯。
Yeah.
所以当有人想坑你或者让你受挫时，你就想，好吧，我知道了。
So when people try to dick you over or people kind of grind you, you're like, okay, I know.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我会再见到你的。
I'll see you again.
嗯。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
所以对我来说，问题是：我怎样才能有一个积极的体验，让你还想再和诺亚合作？
And so for me, it's like, how do I have a positive experience where do you wanna do another deal with Noah?
你
Do you
想再和诺亚做一次折扣交易吗？
wanna do another discount with Noah?
最后，我认为很多时候是定价问题。
And then lastly, I think a lot of times pricing.
第一，要保持积极。
So one, be positive.
要有良好的体验，因为你很可能还会再做一次。
Have a good experience because you're probably gonna do this again.
然后我说，最后，你们实际在谈判的价值是什么？
Then I say lastly, what's the actual value you're negotiating around?
我认为很多时候人们会想，为什么是五而不是十？
I think a lot of times it's like, why want five versus 10?
为什么？
Why?
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以要清楚你为什么认为这个价格是合理的。
So have clarity about why you think it's that price.
比如，嘿，这是类似产品的价格参考。
Like, hey, here's comps.
这是我们可以真正依据的东西。
Here's something that we can actually base this on.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以要有一个依据，比如我们在AppSumo.com的做法是，每半年对每一位承包商和每一个软件订阅进行一次审查。
So have something where you're like, okay, I'm paying what we do at appsumo.com is we do a biannual review over every single contractor and every single software subscription.
我们并不使用软件。
We don't use software.
我们只是用电子表格列了一个清单。
We literally just have a list on spreadsheets.
所以一年两次，你们会核对这份清单
So twice a year, you go through the list
每一件事。
Every single thing.
你们所有的定期支出？
Of your sort of recurring costs?
是的。
Yeah.
我们的服务器成本和电子成本每月大约是25万美元。
So our server costs and electronic costs a month, give or take, is 250,000.
嗯。
Mhmm.
承包商和团队成员的成本每月大约是150万美元。
Contractor, teammate cost is somewhere around 1 and a half million a month.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以你把这些加起来算一年。
So you add that up over a year.
这太多了。
It's a lot.
所以每半年，安娜带领我们的团队，她非常出色，会仔细审查这些费用。
So every biannual, Anna, leads our people team, is amazing, goes over that.
然后我们基本上有两列，一列是价格。
And then we basically have two columns, which is price of it.
另一列是投资回报率，或者我们认为它对公司有多大的价值：低、中、高。
And then we have the return on investment or how valuable we think it is to company, low, medium, high.
嗯。
Mhmm.
然后他们逐项检查，看看有没有标为低价值的项目，嗯。
And then they literally go through every single one and see if they can contact anything that says low Mhmm.
然后直接取消掉。
And then just get it canceled.
要么取消，要么协商降价。
Either you get it canceled or you get it negotiated down.
任何标为高的项目，我们也会要求折扣。
Anything that's high, we still ask for a discount as well.
但我们基本上不会去动这些项目。
But we more or less leave those alone.
我最后给的一个谈判价格的建议是，我建议每个人无论是个人还是职业上都进行半年一次的审查。
Last tip I'll give for negotiating prices, and again, I I recommend everyone doing a biannual review personally or professionally.
当你报出价格后，就闭嘴。
When you give the number, shut the hell up.
我不知道你有没有听过这个，但这是我最喜欢的技巧之一。
I don't if you've heard this, but this is one of my favorite.
我经常这么做。
I do this all the time.
我两天前刚这么做过。
I literally did it two days ago.
当你说到‘报出价格’时，这实际上就是你在提出要求吗？
And when you say when you give the number, that's effectively what you're asking for?
是的。
Yeah.
所以你知道，无论是百万美元的周末，还是AppSumo.com，乃至生活的方方面面，一切都需要主动争取。
So, you know, million dollar weekend and even appsumo.com, life in general, everything is an ask.
我通常的做法是，我买了一个桑拿房，但他们六个月都没送货。
And so how I like to do it, I bought a sauna and they didn't deliver it for six months.
我有点沮丧，于是做了拒付处理。
And I was a little frustrated, I did a chargeback.
欧洲人不知道什么是拒付。
People in Europe don't know about chargebacks.
你知道这个吗？
You know this?
美国人会说：我要拒付。
Americans are like, I'll charge you back.
欧洲人则会说：这到底发生了什么？
Europeans are like, what is what's happening here?
所以我进行了拒付，他们联系了我。
So I I charged back and they contacted me.
你解释一下什么是拒付。
You define a chargeback.
这基本上就是你要求你的信用卡公司撤销一笔交易。
That's basically you're asking your credit card company to reverse a charge.
是的。
Yes.
每个人都应该这么做，但不是一直这么做。
Which everyone should do not all the time.
在AppSumo，当我们尽力纠正客户认为有问题的地方时，拒付是一种引起公司注意的很好方式，因为他们会因此被收费。
And it happens at AppSumo when we we do our best to rectify what customers think is wrong, but it's a really nice way of getting a company's attention because they get charged for it.
他们会收到35美元的账单，并收到通知：嘿，这里有一笔拒付。
They get $35 bill, and they get notified like, hey, here's a chargeback.
你需要解决这个问题。
You need to solve this.
所以我不会一直这么做。
And so I wouldn't do it all the time.
我不是说这是我会正确使用的东西。
I'm not it's not something I do right with.
但如果有人我试图退货，或者他们六个月都没发货，我就会发起拒付。
But if someone I try to return something or they didn't deliver for six months, I did a chargeback.
现在我要谈谈谈判的部分。
Now I'll touch on the negotiating part.
所以公司老板在三个月后注意到这件事时，说：‘嘿，哥们，你给我搞了个拒付。’
So the owner of the company, three months later after he notices it, is like, hey, got a chargeback, man.
‘这到底怎么回事？’
Like, what the hell?
我则说：‘凭我的信誉，我会为你买个桑拿房。’
And I was like, on my integrity, I'm gonna pay for your sauna.
但让我跟你说说我的经历。
But let me just tell you my my experience.
我们聊了聊。
We have a chat.
这真的是三天前的事。
This is literally three days ago.
他说：‘好吧，老兄。’
And he's like, alright, man.
他其实是乡下人。
He's country, actually.
他说：‘好吧，老兄。’
He's like, alright, man.
我明白了。
I got you.
我给你点个小折扣吧，诺亚。
I'm a hook you up a little discount there, Noah.
我当时说：‘好吧，克雷格。’
I was like, alright there, Craig.
他说：我给你打九折。
He's like, I'm a give you 10%.
我当时说：好的，克雷格。
I was like, okay, Craig.
我当时说：克雷格，你知道吗，在谈判的时候，人们往往会情绪化地来回拉扯，但你应该抛开情绪，直接找到解决方案。
I was like, Craig, you know, let me just I think what times when you're negotiating, people do like they go back and forth emotionally, and it's like, get off the emotion and get to the solution.
达成结果。
Get the result.
嗯。
Yeah.
达成结果。
Get the result.
与其
Instead of
较真对错。
being right.
相反
Instead
哦，是的。
of Yeah.
100%。
A 100%.
100，你会说，好吧，Craig，你知道的，别那么固执。
100 you're like, well, Craig, you know Instead of being righteous.
没错。
Exactly.
100。
100.
所以和Craig谈的时候，他说10%。
And so with Craig, he said 10%.
我说，好吧。
I said, alright.
你知道，克雷格，让我来跟你梳理一下发生了什么。
You know, well, Craig, let me just let me just walk through what happened.
你们向我收取了13500美元的桑拿房费用，我很喜欢这个产品。
You guys charged me 13,500 for my sauna, which I love.
但它过了六个月才到货。
It didn't come for six months.
你们每周都在骗我。
You lied to me every week.
我想知道他们每周都骗我说桑拿房即将到货的原因是什么。
I think what's the reason they lied to me that it was coming every week.
我每周都会问，他们总是说：‘哦，是的。’
I'd ask every week, they're like, oh, yeah.
它这周就会到，持续了六个月。
It's coming this week for six months.
五分钟就搞定了。
Five minutes took it.
那些看过《偷天换日》的人。
For those people who've seen Snatch.
是吗？
Was it?
这是一个电影梗。
It's a movie reference.
就是懂的人才懂。
It's people who get it.
没关系。
Doesn't matter.
这是一个电影梗。
It's a movie reference.
懂的人自然会懂。
People who get it will get it.
嗯。
Yeah.
所以最后一个谈判技巧，也就是我们在《百万美元周》中谈到的如何更好地销售，有一个非常简单的框架，任何人都可以复制。
So the last negotiating technique and and this is, you know, Million Dollar Week, we talk about how to sell better, and there's a a very simple framework everyone can copy.
但对克雷格，我说：‘好吧，克雷格，我们来拿20%。’
But with Craig, I said, alright, Craig, let's do 20%.
这才是关键一招。
This is the power move.
你提出你的要求或你的数字，然后闭嘴。
You say your ask or your number and you shut up.
就这么简单。
That's it.
我不确定人们是否已经这么做或了解这一点，但这确实是关键一招。
I don't if people already do this or know about this, but that is the power move.
所以最后，让
So the final Let
沉默发挥作用。
the silence do the work.
就直接说20%。
Just be like 20%.
克雷格说：‘好吧，不行，成交了。’
And Craig was like, all right, no, you got a deal.
我们赶紧搞定吧。
Let's get it done.
于是我们拿到了20%。
And so then we got 20%.
我成功让桑拿房的价格又减了一千块。
I was able to get an extra thousand bucks off the sauna.
我很开心。
I'm happy.
他也挺高兴。
He's happy.
我们可以继续前进了。
We can move forward.
所以，这就是我喜欢的谈判方式的很大一部分。
So that is a lot of how I like to negotiate.
如果你回想起早期的日子，公司还小的时候，也许是你刚单干的时候。
And if you flash back to earlier days, smaller company, maybe it's when you're solo.
对。
Yeah.
也许是你创办AppSumo之前的做法。
Maybe it's what you did before starting AppSumo.
这并不是什么新习惯。
This is not a new habit.
这是你经过很长时间培养起来的习惯。
This is a habit you've developed over a very long period of time.
对。
Yeah.
我正在看一段来自Mixergy的采访 transcript。
And I'm looking at a transcript of an interview from Mixergy.
所以我要插一句，我知道。
So I'll I'll throw in I know.
翻看过去的档案。
Going into the archives.
我想提一下，这也许对大家有帮助，或者能唤起其他节省开支的方法——在我创办第一家公司（户外运动营养公司）之前，我也这么做过。
And wanted to throw this out there just in case it's helpful to folks or for just jogging other techniques in terms of tightening the belt, which is something I did also before starting my very first company, the sports nutrition company outside.
我翻看了我的信用卡账单，心想：好吧，哪些费用可以取消？
Went through my credit card statements and was like, okay, what can I cancel?
哪些可以去掉？
What can I get rid of?
所以我感觉自己的缓冲空间更大了。
So I feel like I have more of a buffer.
对吧？
Right?
我的支出率已经降到最低了。
My burn rate is as low as possible.
这是我面前的东西。
Here's what we have in front of me.
核实一下。
Fact check.
不能相信你在互联网上读到的一切，但这就是我们有的。
Can't trust everything you read on the Internet, but here's what we have.
我最重要的观点是，当你给某人发邮件时，你必须做几件事。
My most important thing is that when you're emailing someone, I think you've got to do a few things.
首先，明确告诉他们你想要的准确价格。
First, tell them the exact price that you want.
所以你之前稍微提到了这一点。
So you kind of alluded to that.
第二，说：嘿。
Number two, say, hey.
我现在付不起这个钱。
I can't afford this right now.
第三，说说我现在需要什么。
Number three, say, this is what I need for now.
如果经济复苏了，我们六个月后再重新讨论。
We can revisit it in six months if the economy recovers.
是
Is
很好的
a great
让我成为长期客户的办法。
way to keep me as a long term customer.
这话说得不错。
That's a pretty good line.
对吧？
Right?
关于如何谈判降价或取消，还有其他想法吗？
Any other thoughts on negotiating prices down or out?
对吧？
Right?
只是在决定砍掉哪些。
Just deciding what to cut.
我认为更宏观的理念是，每个人其实都可以要求折扣，但我觉得人们并没有意识到这一点。
I think the bigger concept that I reflect on for everyone out there is that you can actually ask for discounts, and I don't think people realize that.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为这其实是更重要的事情之一，虽然不是唯一最重要的事，就是我去过你知道的阿里·阿卜杜尔那里？
I think that's actually the bigger one of the bigger things, not the only biggest thing, which is I went to you know Ali Abdul?
我知道。
I do.
对。
Yeah.
我并不认识他本人，但有过一点接触。
I don't know him personally, but I've had a little bit of contact.
哦，他太棒了。
Oh, he's awesome.
他是个非常善良的人。
He's like, beautiful person.
我喜欢这个
I love this
家伙。
guy.
嗯。
Mhmm.
两周前我去洛杉矶和他一起玩了。
And I went to hang out with him in LA two weeks ago.
我去过他的酒店。
I go to his hotel.
他在很多方面都做得非常出色。
Seems like he's done a very good job on a whole bunch of different levels.
而且他确实是。
And he's yeah.
而且他对此很体贴，这让我非常钦佩。
And he's kind about it, which I really admire.
我去他酒店房间时，天啊，那酒店房间太棒了。
And I go to his hotel room, dude, sick hotel room.
真的超棒的酒店房间。
Really sick hotel room.
就在圣莫尼卡的拐角，正对着海滩。
It's like, literally corner Santa Monica, facing the beach.
我和摄影师艾萨克挤在一间小小的单间里，像穷人一样挤在床上。
Me and Isaac, the the videographer, were sharing like a tiny one bedroom, like like cuddling on a bed, like poor people.
而且我
And I
我当时想，不是穷人的那种小，我管这叫‘小富’。
was like, dude, not not poor people, but I I call it small rich.
这就是穷人的名字。
That's the name poor.
这是我的新词，小富。
That's my new term, small rich.
因为这意味着，你还有机会很快或将来变得富有。
Because it means, you know, there's still a chance to get rich soon or yet.
所以，我问了亚历克。
So anyways, I asked Alec.
我问他：这房间多少钱，老兄？
Was like, how much is this room, man?
这肯定得一千美元一晚吧。
This must be like 1,000 a night.
他跟我说：你知道吗，伙计？
He's like, you know what, mate?
他说：伦敦。
He's he's like, London.
他说：‘你知道吗，老兄？’
He's like, you know what, mate?
我只是给他们发了封邮件，说我在房间里拍视频之类的东西。
I just emailed them and said, I'm doing videos and stuff in the room.
你们能给我一点房间折扣吗？
Do you think you can give me a little discount on the room?
他们免费给了他们这个房间。
They give them the room for free.
是的。
Yeah.
只要开口，他们就免费提供房间。
They give them the room for free just by asking.
问一下又不会有什么损失。
Doesn't hurt to ask.
所以我认为更重要的不是如何压榨别人，我也不认为我们是在鼓励这种做法。
And so I think the bigger thing is not necessarily how to grind other people, and I don't think that's what we're encouraging at all.
我只是在想，如果你买不起某样东西，但又想要，该怎么开口请求呢？
Just thinking like, if you can't afford something, if you want something, how can you just ask for it?
我觉得蒂姆说的，你从我们讨论中强调的那句话，我很喜欢‘错过了’这个说法。
And I think what Tim said, what you highlighted from what we're talking about is, I like the phrase whiffed.
他们能得到什么好处？
What's in it for them?
就想想‘错过了’吧。
Just think whiffed.
我该怎么告诉他们我会成为长期客户呢？
Like, how can I tell them I'll be a long term customer?
你提到的这一点非常好。
That's what you called out, which is great.
或者说，嘿，我买不起这个，但我真的付不起这个价格。
Or like, hey, I can't afford this, but I can't afford this price.
所以我现在可以做点什么。
So I could do something now.
我在想如何让他们觉得这样做对他们有利。
I'm thinking about how you make it in their interest.
比如，我可以给你留个评价。
Like, maybe I'll leave you a review.
而且我觉得，在这种情况下多做一点，会让他们更愿意这么做。
And thinking, you know, more in that instance makes them more likely to do it.
那我们来举一个可选做法的例子。
So let's give an example of an optional practice.
我知道我们之前讨论过这个，而且出于各种原因，我特别喜欢这个做法，就是咖啡折扣。
And I know we've talked about this, and for any number of reasons, I'm just in love with it, and that is the coffee discount.
因为别在重要的事情上拿第一次练习开刀。
Because don't practice your first round on the important stuff.
这太荒谬了。
That's ridiculous.
没错。
Yeah.
这会招来各种问题，甚至可能造成自我施加的创伤后应激障碍，一旦搞砸了，你就再也不想做了。
That's asking for all sorts of problems and all sorts of like self imposed PTSD if it goes sideways, and then you're not gonna do it again.
没错。
Yeah.
所以，要在不重要的事情上练习。
So practice on things that don't matter.
对吧？
Right?
这就像你要参加你最心仪公司的关键面试时，别把那次当作你的第一次面试。
It's kinda like if you were gonna have a really important job interview with your top pick, don't make that your first interview.
百分之百同意。
100%.
先去其他你并不在乎结果的公司多练几次。
Like, just go get a bunch of practice rounds with other companies where you don't care about the outcome.
那么在这种情况下，咖啡折扣指的是什么？
So in this case, what is the coffee discount?
嗯。
Yeah.
咖啡折扣其实和创业息息相关，人们都会说：‘真的吗？’
The coffee discount, it ties all into starting a business, which people are like, really?
我会说：‘真的。’
I'm like, yeah.
确实如此。
It really does.
这就是关键。
It is the thing.
无论你什么时候买咖啡、茶，去商店，甚至餐厅，你都可以在任何地方这么做。
You go to anytime you buy coffee, tea, anytime you go to a store, even a restaurant, you can do it anywhere.
你走到柜台前，完成购买，然后说：‘能给我打九折吗？’
You go up to the counter, you make your purchase, and you say, can I please have 10% off?
然后他们会很奇怪地看着你。
And then they look at you really strange.
然后你说：‘我是诺亚·卡根，正在上《百万美元周末》这门课。’
And you say, well, Noah Kagan, A Million Dollar Weekend, I'm doing this course.
我正在试读这本书。
I'm trying out this book.
他们说我要这么做。
They said I should do it.
他们还是用奇怪的眼神看着你。
And they they keep looking at you weird.
他们说：‘让我去问问经理。’
They go, let me talk to my manager.
好吧。
Okay.
行吧。
Fine.
你最终得到了10%的折扣。
You get 10% off.
或者他们回来拒绝你。
Or they come back and say no.
然后你拿到咖啡，继续前行。
And you get your coffee and you move on.
我总是喜欢问别人：你从中学到了关于自己的什么？
And then I always love asking people, like, what did you learn about yourself?
每个人都会说：我感到害怕。
And everyone's always like, I was scared.
但我鼓起勇气面对了恐惧，意识到自己能做更多事情，而事情并没有看起来那么可怕。
I had courage because I faced my fear, and I realized I can do more things, and it's not as scary as it actually seemed.
现在你可以坦率地将这种心态应用到方方面面：工作中争取加薪、约会时邀请别人、尤其是商业场合，比如：‘你愿意来我的节目吗？’
And now you can start applying that frankly in everything, in your jobs for raises, with your dating, asking someone for a date, and especially in business, which is, hey, will you come on my show?
‘你愿意成为我的客户吗？’
Hey, will you be my customer?
‘你愿意给我一些反馈吗？’
Hey, will you give me feedback?
嘿，我可以采访你吗？
Hey, can I interview you?
整个人生就是不断向别人提出问题。
That's all this whole life is is asking people things.
如果你问了，猜猜会怎样？
And if you ask, guess what?
你可能会得到。
You can get.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我不记得我是什么时候说过或写过这句话了，但它深深引起了我的共鸣，以至于我觉得自己或许应该更深入地思考一下，就是这句话。
I don't know when I originally said this or wrote it, but I've it resonated so much that I was like, maybe I should think about this even more myself, which was this line.
我真的不敢相信我居然在引用自己的话。
I can't believe I'm quoting myself for God's sake.
救救我。
Save me.
这就是互联网对你的影响。
This what the Internet does to you.
我还没开始以自己的名字署名来引用自己。
I haven't started quoting myself with my name signed.
我还没开始这么做。
I haven't started doing that yet.
我们来吧。
Let's do it.
但生活惩罚模糊的愿望，奖励具体的请求。
But the life punishes the vague wish and rewards the specific ask.
这与我《四小时工作周》之前的早期经历有关。
And this ties into my earliest beginnings prior to the four hour workweek.
我不确定我是否真的公开谈论过这一点，但我在2003年到2013年左右，每年两次在普林斯顿大学讲授高科技创业课程时，是受一位教授邀请的。
And I don't know if I've actually talked about this publicly, but when I was giving the guest lectures in high-tech entrepreneurship at Princeton twice a year from two thousand three to thirteen, I think, And I was invited by a professor.
除了我邀请的其他嘉宾演讲者都是获得风险投资并走这条路的人之外，我没有任何特别的资历。
I didn't have any special credentials other than everyone else he invited in as a guest speaker was venture backed and traveled that route.
他们有一些外部融资。
They had some type of external financing.
我是他的学生之一。
I was one of his students.
我们一直保持联系。
We kept in touch.
我们相处得非常好。
We got along really well.
邵逸，我曾经邀请他上过我的播客。
Ed Shao, I've had him on the podcast.
他希望我回来分享我在前线的经验，因为我也是一名刚毕业的学生。
And he wanted me to come back to share my experiences on the front lines because I was a recent grad also.
不是几十年前的事了。
Wasn't decades out.
自筹资金。
Bootstrapping.
对吧？
Right?
所以我回去了，每次演讲的核心内容都不断修改、成长和演变，那些笔记最终成为了《四小时工作周》的骨架，因为我进行了大量实验。
So I went back and the crux of my presentation every time, And it modified, you know, grew and it evolved, and the notes for that ended up becoming the backbone of the four hour work week as I ran all these experiments.
但开场白通常是：‘在座的有谁想当销售员？’
But the opener was effectively, who here wants to be a salesperson?
没有人举手。
And no hands would go up.
没人会举手。
Nobody would raise their hand.
对吧？
Right?
太好了。
So good.
尤其是因为这是普林斯顿大学。
Especially because this is Princeton.
对吧？
Right?
他们就说，销售？
And they're like, sales?
呃。
Ugh.
让我浑身不舒服。
Like, makes my skin crawl.
懂吗？
Know?
所以当时那些人可能打算创业，更可能是去投资银行或管理咨询公司。
So you had people who were maybe going into entrepreneurship, more likely investment banking or management consulting, probably.
但很多人有成为企业家的抱负。
But a lot of them had aspirations to be an entrepreneur.
我说，好吧。
And I said, okay.
你是否想成为销售人员无关紧要。
Whether or not you wanna be a salesperson is irrelevant.
如果你不喜欢这个标签，那也没关系。
And if you don't like that label, that's fine.
但你必须成为一个出色的交易促成者。
But you have to become a really good dealmaker.
你必须成为一个优秀的交易促成者。
You have to become a good dealmaker.
太喜欢了。
Love that.
很多这些演讲都聚焦于我们正在讨论的这类内容。
And a lot of those presentations focus on the kind of stuff that we're talking about.
明确表达你的需求，决定如何定位它，以及真正弄清楚对方真正想要什么，因为也许你正在为一些只是他们真实需求的信号而大惊小怪。
Asking for what you want, deciding how to position it, deciding how to really determine what the other person wants because maybe you are causing a fuss over something that is just an indicator of what they actually want.
有一些书籍可以帮助你做到这一点。
And there are books that help with this.
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