#832：狮子追踪者的回归——博伊德·瓦蒂谈内心的野性、大自然隐藏的智慧与全然活着的感受

大家好，男孩女孩们，女士们先生们。我是蒂姆·费里斯，欢迎收听新一期的《蒂姆·费里斯秀》。今天的嘉宾是我一直以来的最爱。很多人跑来对我说：天哪，

Well, hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss Show. And my guest today is an all time favorite. A lot of people come up to me and say, my god.

和博伊德·瓦蒂的那期节目太震撼了，他现在回来了！虽然不需要听过第一期的背景，但有机会你应该听听。博伊德是'追踪你的人生'创始人，在南非丛林提供限量高端静修营，也是我近几年最爱书籍的作者——那是本轻松易读的小书，

That episode with Boyd Varty. WTF, that was amazing, and he's back. And you don't need the context of the first episode, but you should check it out if you have the chance. Boyd Vardy is the founder of Track Your Life, which offers a limited number of premium retreats in South Africa's Bushveld and author of one of my favorite books of the last few years. It's an easy, fast read.

《狮子追踪者的人生指南》。作为伦多洛兹野生动物保护区的第四代守护者，博伊德从小与狮子、豹子、蛇和大象为伴，毕生都在向自然界学习。他的故事简直疯狂，今天我们准备了大量新故事——比如'狒狒午餐'，你们马上就会听到这些精彩内容。

The Lion Tracker's Guide to Life. As a fourth generation custodian of Londalozi Game Reserve, Boyd grew up with lions, leopards, snakes, and elephants and has spent his life in apprenticeship to the natural world. His stories are effing bananas, and we have a whole bunch of new stories. Example given, Lunch the Baboon. Oh, you'll hear all about that and much more.

他既是狮子追踪者、故事讲述者，也是扫盲和野生动物保护活动家。在追踪技艺与个人成长这两大热爱的交汇处，博伊德运用古老智慧帮助人们建立目标明确、有意义的人生。相信我，若有机会与他相处，千万别错过。他还主持《追踪你的人生》播客，强烈推荐关注。他的网站trackyourlife.co.za，Instagram账号@boydvarty和Boyd_Varty。

He is a lion tracker, storyteller, and literacy and wildlife activist. At the intersection of his two greatest passions, tracking and personal transformation, Boyd uses ancient wisdom to help people create a purpose driven, meaningful life. If you can spend time with Boyd, trust me, take the opportunity, and do it. He is also the host of the Track Your Life podcast, which is definitely worth checking out. You can find him online at trackyourlife.co.zaonx at Boyd Varty, b o y d v a r t y, on Instagram, Boyd underscore Varty.

闲话少说，请享受这场与博伊德·瓦蒂的精彩对谈。

And without further ado, please enjoy a very wide ranging and fun conversation with Boyd Varty.

极简最优解。

Optimal minimal.

在这个海拔高度，我能全速奔跑半英里才会手抖。能回答你的私人问题吗？现在我们终于要见证重要时刻了。我是个生化人——活体组织覆盖金属内骨骼。博伊德，见到你真高兴。

At this altitude, I can run flat for a half mile before my hands start shaking. Can I answer your personal question? Now we're just seeing it for a big time. I'm a cybernetic organism living tissue over metal endoskeleton. Boydou, good to see you.

很高兴见到你，兄弟。谢谢你再次邀请我上节目。

Good to see you, man. Thanks for having me back on the show.

当然。我很喜欢你现在的背景，因为你占用了我在奥斯汀的录音室。这感觉挺超现实的。

Absolutely. And I love your background since you have commandeered my recording office in Austin. It's pretty surreal.

不得不说，我喜欢你对这里的布置。说不定我会在这里待上几周。

I gotta say, I like what you've done with the place. You might just pull in here for a few weeks.

你知道吗？欢迎你随时来。

You know what? You're welcome to.

见到你真好，兄弟。是啊，我记得上次我们在一起时，正顶着暴风雨走在科茨沃尔德。

That's great to see you, man. Yeah. I think last time we were together, we were walking in a squall across the Cotswolds.

没错没错。是的，我们那次算是半荒野探险了。我是说，那里确实有些野性。

That's right. That's right. Yes. We had a we had our own semi wilderness adventure. I mean, there was some wild there.

确实有些野性。遇到的牛群比在你那边通常能见到的要多得多

There was some wild. More cows than I would tend to run into in your neck of the

关于你的獾足迹。你确实发现了一条獾的踪迹。

with your your badger track. You did spot a badger track.

谢谢。这要归功于博伊德、雷尼乌斯、亚历克斯以及其他真正的追踪导师们。那我们直接开始吧。这次会有很多即兴发挥，因为我想向听众们介绍——当然如果他们还没听第一集的话（他们应该去听听）——你那五花八门的故事集。我准备了不少话题。

Thanks. That is thanks to Boyd and Renius and Alex and all the rest of the actual tracking teachers. So let's hop into it. Now this is gonna be a lot of improv jazz because I wanted to introduce people, of course, if they have not heard episode one, which they should listen to, to your eclectic collection of stories. And I have a number of prompts.

除了其中一个，我对其他内容完全没概念。我们有JV、消防工作、午餐、托比野鸡，还有其他几个选项。你想从哪里开始？由你决定。

I do not have any idea what these loot to except for one. So we have JV, firefighting, lunch, Toby Pheasant, and then we have a number of others. Where would you like to start? Dealer's choice.

那不如从你不了解我的事情开始吧——二十多岁时我曾领导过一支精英消防队。我从一位法国外籍军团成员手中接管了这支队伍，他拥有你平生所见最惊人的个人气场。当他走动时，周围20码范围内都会笼罩着这种绝对的自信与强烈的气场，你会真切感受到这是个能力超群的人。

Well, maybe we'll start with something you don't know about me, which is that I was the head of an elite firefighting unit for a period of time in my twenties. And I took over the team from a French foreign legionnaire who had some of the most incredible personal power you've ever seen in your life. Like, when he would walk somewhere, there would literally be a 20 yard radius around him where he would project this aura of absolute confidence and intensity, and you just felt this is an incredibly capable person.

这是在南非吗？

And this is in South Africa?

是在南非。我们属于一支叫栖息地团队的队伍，职责包括多项保护区工作：修路、补围栏、确保动物安全、实施可控燃烧计划，还要在发生野火时灭火。23岁接手克里斯的职位时，我正处于家族企业里什么活都干的阶段——兼职市场经理和销售经理，要飞往世界各地旅游展推销狩猎旅行，回南非后又加入消防队。

This is in South Africa, and our job was we were part of a team called the Habitat team, and our job was to do a number of things on the reserve. We had to fix roads, we had to mend fences, we had to make sure that animals were generally safe, we had a controlled burning program, and then we also had to fight fires in the case that you got a runaway fire. And when I took over from Chris, I was probably about 23, I was in the phase where as a family business I was doing every job. I was the part time marketing manager and sales manager, so I'd fly off to various travel shows in the world and sell safaris. And then I would come back to South Africa and I would be on the firefighting team.

记得当时接替克里斯让我压力巨大，我甚至独自在房间里模仿他的走路姿势，试图掌握那种节奏和气场。而就在接手后的第一个任务——这事还有些前因——猴子们一直在袭击自助餐区。

And I remember that I was so daunted by taking over from Chris that I had actually practiced his walk alone in my room a little bit to try and get the cadence and the presence right. And like literally right off the bat, the first incident we had was there's a bit of a setup to it. And the setup is that the monkeys had been generally attacking the buffet.

这些就是长尾黑颚猴吗？

These are the vervet monkeys?

长尾黑颚猴一直在自助餐区捣乱，偷东西。于是有位机灵的员工开车路过时，看到一个真狮子大小的纸浆雕塑，就买了下来。每天傍晚和用餐时间，他们就把这个纸浆狮子搬到面朝河流的前甲板上——客人们在那里用餐——猴子们看到就会吓得报警逃走。

The vervet monkeys have been all over the buffet. They've been stealing things. And so some enterprising staff member had been driving down the road and they had seen a sculpture, a paper mache sculpture of a life-sized lion. And so they had bought it. And in the late afternoons and around mealtimes, they would trot the paper mache lion out onto the front deck that overlooked the river where people were having food and the monkeys would see it and they would alarm and stay away.

之后纸浆狮子会被收起来存放在酒吧里。结果第二天，健身房插座就发生了小型电气火灾。我的团队赶到现场，立刻意识到不能直接喷水灭火，必须切断主电源。于是我派了队员拉奇·姆昆兹去断电——这名字起得讽刺，因为他实在倒霉透顶。

And then the paper mache line would be picked up and it would be put in the bar for storage. So like literally day two, we have a small electrical fire breaks out on a socket in the gym. And my team get down there and we instantly realize that we can't spray this out, we've got to shut the main power down. So I send one of our team members who was a guy by the name of Lucky Mkunzi. He was named ironically because he was incredibly unlucky.

他曾在丛林事故中失去一只眼睛。为此他买了顶毛线帽，在正中剪了个洞套在头上，用剩下的好眼从洞里看东西，就这么在营地里晃荡。总之我派拉奇去断电，他冲进昏暗的酒吧（当时已近黄昏，百叶窗都关着，空无一人），配电盘就在那儿。

He had in fact lost an eye in an incident in the bush. And the way that he handled this is he had bought a beanie and he had cut a single hole in the beanie and he pulled it down over his face so he had a single viewpoint out of the center of the beanie with his one good eye. And he would rock around the place dressed like this. Anyway, I sent Lucky to shut the power down. So he ran to the bar where the switchboard was and he burst into a darkened bar with its hatches closed because it was like late afternoon, there was no one around.

他切断电源后向左转身，黑暗中赫然有头狮子立在酒吧里。

He hit the power and he turned to his left and in the bar, in the darkness was a lion.

那个纸浆狮子。

The paper mache lion.

纸浆狮子就在酒吧里。拉奇因此失踪了两个半小时——在他丛林生存的认知里，酒吧出现活狮子太合理了。我意识到必须加强训练了，毕竟要维持法国外籍军团的水准压力不小。于是我决定开展系列演练，保持精英标准。整个团队大概就十个人。

The paper mache lion was in the bar. So we lost Lucky for about two and a half hours because to his mind, and Valid in the bush, he saw a live lion in the barn, he just disappeared. So I realized we better get down to some training because I felt a certain amount of pressure to make sure that we maintained the standards of the French Foreign Legionnaire. So I decided that we would get involved in a series of drills and we would keep ourselves at an elite standard. And the team was made up of, if you think about it, there was maybe like 10 guys.

有个叫艾萨克和康托尔的队长，身材魁梧得惊人，大概是个六尺五寸的肌肉男。拖拉机司机是戴着无檐帽的幸运姆昆兹。我自己则模仿法国外籍军团的样子走路。我们对自己充满信心，但离理想状态还差些火候。于是每天下午，我会随机安排些训练机会。

There was a headman by the name of Isaac and Kontoor who was just incredibly, also physical, maybe like six'five muscular guy. It was Lucky Mkunzi who was the tractor driver with his beanie on. There was myself doing my French Foreign Legionnaire walk. And we believed in ourselves, but we weren't quite where we needed to be. And so randomly in the afternoons, I would set up opportunities for us to have drills.

营地后面有个小足球场，我会去捡散落的杂物。不定时地，我会点燃火堆然后发出信号。我们有各种口令，先是‘各就各位’通过对讲机传出去。大家会冲向拖拉机，抓起装备，接着我大喊‘就位！’。团队会登上拖拉机，开出去列队，然后我吼‘启动引擎！’

There was a small soccer field at the back of the camp and I would go and get debris that was lying around. And at random times I would light a fire and then I would send out the call. And there were all of these kind of calls that was first like stations, stations, stations, send it out on the walkie talkies. Everyone would run to their tractors, they would grab their gear, and then I would scream, positions, positions, positions. The team would load into the tractors, they would drive out, they would get into positions, and then I would scream, start the engines!

拖车后部那些强大的发电机引擎纷纷轰鸣起来。火势开始蔓延时我高喊‘喷水！’。水管一开，水流喷射而出，瞬间扑灭大火，我们成了整个地区的英雄。话说纸糊防线事件的第二天，我点了这样一场火。老实说，我用从旅馆屋顶掉下的旧茅草堆了个挺不错的篝火。

And all of these powerful generator engines on the back of the trailers would start. And then the fire would start to build and I would scream, spray, spray. And the hoses would open and a blast of water would come out and the fire would be out in moments and we would be the heroes of the entire district. So anyway, the day after the incident with the paper mache line, I set one of these fires and we get the fire going. And to be honest with you, I had some old thatch that had come off some of the roofs of the lodges and I had built quite a nice bonfire of thatch.

火势比我预想的窜得更快。一开始就形成了相当大的火场。我抓起对讲机吼‘各就各位！’队员们手忙脚乱地穿戴装备。‘就位！就位！’

And it took off a little faster than I had initially expected. So we had quite a sizable fire right off the bat. Got on the radio, I screamed, stations, stations, stations! The team scrambled, they got their gear on. Positions, positions, positions!

拖拉机隆隆驶来时，我心想这场面太震撼了。我像法国外籍兵那样踱步，发号施令：‘开水管！喷水！’。水管开启后却只流出细弱的水流。这时起风了，火借风势开始失控。面对越来越大的压力，我的应对方式是用更大音量重复所有指令。

The tractors came rolling in, I was thinking to myself this is looking incredible. I was walking like a French foreign legionnaire around, I was giving commanding instructions, open the hoses, spray, spray, spray. The hoses open and an absolute trickle of water comes out. By this time a wind has picked up and the fire is now starting to get some wind under it and it's starting to look like actually this fire could get away from us. So my way of handling the situation, because the pressure was now building, was to repeat all of the commands at a louder volume.

‘各就各位！启动引擎！喷水！’水流依然细如涓滴。就在那时我们发现，关键一刻幸运姆昆兹竟把拖车后轮压在了水管上。他和我同时察觉，赶紧往前开。

Stations, stations, stations, positions, start the engines. Spray, spray, spray. Still an absolute dribble of water. And it was at that moment that we realized that Lucky Mkunzi, in the moment critique, had managed to park the back tire of the trailer on the hosepipe. And he saw it at the very same time I did, and he rolled forward.

问题是水压已在扭曲的水管后段积聚。当水管终于通水时，不仅冲倒了持管人，我们完全失去了控制。水管像致命巨蟒般疯狂甩动。火势开始彻底失控。本该灭火的队长血流如注地倒在地上，而我法国外籍兵式的踱步此刻毫无用武之地。

The problem was is that the pressure had now built up behind the kink in the hose. And when that hose finally filled with water, not only did it knock the hose man out, but we totally lost control of it. It was flailing around like a deadly anaconda. The fire was now starting to get away from us. The head man who was meant to be spraying the fire was in a bleeding heap on the floor, and my French Foreign Legion walk was taking me absolutely nowhere.

那是我第一次真正领悟消防工作的本质。事实上，这个教训贯穿了我的整个职业生涯——当事情严重失控时，你内心会觉得这对自尊是毁灭性的打击，对领导力也是致命打击。但我逐渐意识到这些时刻其实很积极，因为它们迫使你进行反思。那天我学到的、并在之后所有危机中始终铭记的是：当能量向上攀升时，极少有人懂得如何将其向下疏导。要知道，在超越表面功夫之后，如果你能在能量升腾时学会让行动变得缓慢而稳定，实际上就能对局势施展某种强大的能量柔术。

That's when I got my first lesson in what firefighting was actually about. And in fact, it's probably the lesson that stayed with me through all of this is that when something is going that wrong, in the moment you think to yourself, it can be quite devastating to your ego, it can be quite devastating to your leadership. But I've come to see those moments as quite positive because it does force a kind of reflection. And the thing that I definitely learned that day and that has stayed with me through all crisis situations and everything that I've faced ever since then is that it's very few people who know how to bring the energy downwards when the energy is moving upwards. And, you know, somewhere beyond trying to do an impressive walk, if you can figure out how to when literally energy is moving upwards, start to create a slowness and a steadiness about your actions, you can start to actually do a kind of a powerful energetic jujitsu on things.

因此自那天起，我就专注于在能量攀升时尝试让它慢下来。这属于『你不了解我的事』范畴。

And so ever since that day, I've been focused on when the energy is climbing trying to slow it down. That's in the category of things you don't know about me.

这确实属于众多我不了解你的事情之一——考虑到我们相识这么久，既令人震惊又完全不意外。但我想说几点：首先，你刚才提到的关于将能量循环带回平静状态的能力，Zillow联合创始人Rich Barton（他还创办了Expedia等公司）最近在播客里也谈到过类似的领导力观点。其次，我觉得真该有人以这些疯狂故事为原型，写个叫《伦多洛兹》的剧本喜剧。我想或许可以引入一个新角色，让JV成为《伦多洛兹》版的『吉利根岛』，你想介绍JV吗？

That is in the category of many things I don't know about you, which is shocking shocking and not surprising at all given how long I've known you, but I wanna say a few things. So first, what you just said about mastering the ability to bring the energy in a full circle back to calmness, that's something that Rich Barton who cofounded Zillow and many other company Expedia, etcetera, also said about leadership. This was not that long ago on the podcast. The second thing that comes to mind is I really think somebody needs to write a scripted comedy show based on real life called Londo, just about all of these crazy stories. And I thought I would perhaps introduce a new character who would be on the Gilligan's Island of Londo, JV, do you wanna introduce JV?

你打算怎么介绍？

How do you wanna do that?

对她的话我只想说一点：我经常思考现在从事的工作领域，我觉得自己感兴趣的本质上是『故事狩猎』。虽然以伦多洛兹为背景，但不止于此。每当置身自然界，它就象个故事制造机——哪怕最简单的林间漫步也能...我该怎么说呢？

Well, just one comment on what she's saying. You know, I think a lot about my kind of like the body of work that I'm involved in now and everything I'm interested in as story hunting. And one thing it's about Londolozi, but it's not just that. It's like any time you spend in the natural world, it is like a story making machine. You can go out on the most simple walk into the woods, and because it is both how would I say it?

自然界不仅是意义汇聚之处，它本身就是某种根本性的意义存在。然后事件自然发生，各种小插曲层出不穷。我认为讲故事的本质就是保持觉察——实际上，讲故事就是保持专注。

The natural world is not just where meaning constellates, it is meaning in some fundamental way. And then incidences occur. Inevitably, like little things happen. And, you know, one of my ideas is that storytelling is awareness. Like actually what storytelling is is paying attention.

自然界每天都会产生不可思议的际遇。比如伦多洛兹的60位游客外出，就会带回60个截然不同的当日见闻故事。有些荒诞，有些美妙，有些深刻。与现代生活有时令人感觉刻板重复不同，自然界就是个故事永动机。

And the natural world starts to just every day generate incredible encounters. Like if I think of the guests who got at Londolozi, let's say 60 guests go out. That's 60 people who come back with a diverse array of stories and incidences that occur on that day. Some of them will be ridiculous, some of them will be sublime, some of them will be profound, but it's hard to cast yourself versus modern life, which can sometimes feel very staid and like the same things are happening all the time. The natural world is a story machine.

这是一台意义机器，一台象征机器，凝视它的人们——那些非常不迷信的人，那些刚从非洲游猎归来的人——他们回望自然世界时，看到了自己能够辨识的原型能量。当你目睹母狮梳理幼崽的毛发，或保护幼崽，当看到它们切换至狩猎模式时，你无法不注意到这些深刻的象征能量在我们体内运转，并弥漫于你周围，以某种深刻的方式让你感受到自己与这种能量的联系。

It's a meaning machine, it's a symbolic machine, and people who stare into it, it's like very un woo woo people, people who've just come out on safari, they come back and they stared into the natural world and they've seen archetypal energies that they recognize. When you see a lioness grooming her cubs, or you see her protecting the cubs, when you see them switch into hunting mode, you can't help but see these profound symbolic energies that are in us functioning all around you, and that somehow it permeates you and you feel yourself in relationship to that in some profound way.

确实如此。而且我们还没谈到这点——有件事你不知道。我在蒙大拿荒野度过了一周，跟着一位非凡的导师进行野外生存训练，大概一两个月后我会在节目里重点介绍他。

Yeah. For sure. And, we haven't even talked about this. It's something you don't know. I spent a week in the Montana wilderness doing outdoor survival training with this incredible gent who I'll highlight on the show in probably a month or two.

但令人惊叹的是你带回来的故事密度。即便你不刻意收集极端经历，对城市居民而言，每个转折都充满新奇——尤其是当你注入任何程度的共同匮乏或困境时（有时是刻意为之，有时则是被冻雨冰雹逼得手都冻僵还要生火这类意外遭遇）。

But it's incredible the density of stories that you come back with. Even if you don't intend to gather anything extreme, it's so I would say also for city dwellers, it's so novel at every turn, particularly if you're injecting any level of shared privation or hardship, which is sometimes done deliberately, sometimes forced upon you in the case of freezing rain and hail when you're trying to make a fire when your hands are barely functioning, things like that.

稍事感谢我们的赞助商，节目马上继续。

Just a quick thanks to our sponsors, and we'll be right back to the show.

我在社交媒体上向数百万粉丝询问对Gusto的看法，从未见过如此压倒性的积极反馈。说实话这有点疯狂，因为我做过几十次这类调查。但这也合理——已有超过40万家小企业信任Gusto，它被G2评为2025年秋季头号薪酬软件。如果你是想简化薪酬和HR事务的小企业主（谁愿意在这些事上多花时间呢？），Gusto可能就是你需要的关键转变。

I asked millions of you about Gusto on social media, and I've never seen such overwhelmingly positive responses. It was kinda bonkers, honestly, because I've done this dozens of times. And it makes sense. More than 400,000 small businesses already trust Gusto and it's been named the number one payroll software by g two for fall twenty twenty five. If you're a small business owner looking to simplify payroll and HR tasks, because why would you wanna spend more time on those things, Gusto could be the game changer that you need.

Gusto是专为小企业设计的一站式薪酬福利与HR平台。它能自动申报联邦、州和地方薪资税，处理W-2和1099表格（这些有多烦人你懂的），并提供适合几乎任何预算的简明健康福利与401k选项。现在正是选择Gusto来照顾团队并保持合规的最佳时机。访问gusto.com/tim了解为何90%的客户推荐Gusto，新用户首单可享三个月免费服务。

Gusto is the all in one payroll, benefits, and HR platform designed specifically for small businesses. They automatically file federal, state, and local payroll taxes, handle w twos and ten ninety nines, what a pain in the ass all those can be, and offers straightforward health benefits and four zero one k options for nearly any budget. Now is the perfect time to choose Gusto to take care of your team and stay compliant. So go to gusto.com/tim to see why nine out of 10 Gusto customers recommend Gusto. Listeners get three months free once they run their first payroll.

重申：gust0.com/tim（条款适用）。市面上几乎所有不粘锅都会释放有害的永久化学物质PFAS（拼作p-f-a-s）到食物和家中，最终进入人体。Our Place联系我赞助时，我第一反应是查看产品评价并要求寄样——这就是零涂层的钛金Always Pan Pro，号称首款真正无涂层的不粘锅。

Again, that's gust0.com/tim. Terms and conditions apply. A lot of nonstick pans, practically all of them, can release harmful forever chemicals, PFAS, in other words, spelled p f a s, into your food, your home, and then ultimately, that ends up in your body. So Our Place reached out to me as a potential sponsor, and the first thing I did was look at the reviews of their products and said, send me one, and that is the titanium always pan pro. And the claim is that it's the first nonstick pan with zero coating.

这意味着零永久化学物质和永恒的耐用性。我当时非常怀疑，也非常忙。所以我说，你知道吗？我想快速测试这个东西。

So that means zero forever chemicals and durability that'll last forever. I was very skeptical. I was very busy. So I said, you know what? I wanna test this thing quickly.

我打算用两样东西测试它：早上用炒鸡蛋测试，然后用煎牛排测试。两种情况都表现完美，设计非常巧妙。它确实结合了不锈钢、铸铁和不粘锅的最佳特性。现在Our Place正在将这项首创技术扩展到他们的钛金专业厨具系列，这些产品都是限量生产的。

I'm gonna test it with two things. I'm gonna test it with scrambled eggs in the morning, and then I'm gonna test it with a steak sear. And it worked perfectly in both cases, and the design is really clever. It does combine the best qualities of stainless steel, cast iron, and nonstick into one product. And now Our Place is expanding this first of its kind technology to their Titanium Pro cookware sets, which are made in limited quantities.

如果你在寻找无毒、持久且能超越厨房里其他所有锅具的产品，只需访问ourplace.com/tim，并使用优惠码tim享受订单9折。你可以享受100天无风险试用、免运费和免费退货。快去看看吧，ourplace.com/tim。我们不必过分强调这点，但我必须继续介绍——虽然不确定这相当于《盖里甘的岛》里的哪个角色，但就是JV。

So if you're looking for nontoxic, long lasting pots and pans that outperform everything else in your kitchen, just head to from ourplace.com/tim, and use code tim for 10% off of your order. You can enjoy a one hundred day risk free trial, free shipping, and free returns. Check it out. From ourplace.com/tim. Let's and we're not going to necessarily belabor the point, but I just have to press on introducing, I'm not sure which character on Gilligan's Island this would be, but JV.

让我们聊聊JV，然后我们会绕回故事探索环节，以及串联起所有这些事情的关联点。

Let's talk about JV, and then we're gonna we're gonna loop back to story hunting and some of the connective tissue that that connects all of these things.

在所有对我产生深远影响的人中，有一位是我的叔叔约翰·瓦蒂，大家都叫他JV。JV是野生动物纪录片制作人。从大约六岁起，我就成了他的摄影助理。可以说他骨子里带着野性——他成长于狩猎仍盛行的年代，在那个地区打猎曾是主要活动。一个从小猎狮的人有个特点：这会重置你对戏剧性的感知阈值。

Well, I mean, of all the people who had a profound influence on me, one of them was my uncle, John Varty, who went by the name of JV. And JV was a wildlife filmmaker. And from the time that I was about six years old, I became his camera assistant. Which to say that he had a streak of wildness, he had grown up in the hunting era when hunting was still what they primarily did in that area. And one thing about someone who grew up lion hunting is that it tends to reset your drama meter.

因为细想之下，猎狮只有两种结果：要么狮子死，要么人死。这种童年经历彻底重塑了他对危险的认知。我6到15岁期间主要跟他相处，那时他正在拍摄野生动物纪录片。我记得晚上会把衣服摊在床上，凌晨四点他就会现身——打扮得像非洲版的德州骑警，腰别.44手枪，穿着无袖衬衫，推开我卧室门说：'伙计，出发吧'。

Because if you think about it, in lion hunting, there's really only two outcomes. A lion dies or a human dies. So his sense of danger was dramatically reset by this type of childhood experience that engaged in as a young boy. So at the time that I spent most of my time with him, it was between the age of about six and 15, he was making wildlife documentaries. And I remember I would put my clothes out on my bed at night, and then at about four in the morning he would show up and he would walk in looking like kind of like Africa's version of Texas walker ranger, 44 on his hip, shirt with cut off sleeves, and he would open the door of my bedroom and say, buddy, let's go.

就像蒂姆，如果你现在见到他，他会问你：'嘿，你是做什么的？'你说：'呃，做播客'。'播客？行，让我来教教你什么叫播客'。

Like Tim, if you met him now, he would say to you, hey, that's what do you do? And you'd say, well, you know, run a podcast. Podcasting? Okay. Let me tell you about podcasting.

他的手臂有些向外弯曲。尚甘人称他为Makokwan，意为‘弯臂人’，因为他走路姿势特别

He had these sort of arms that stuck out. The Shangan people called him Makokwan, the one with the crooked arms because he like walked the sort

他走路有点像约翰·韦恩那种

of He like had like a John Wayne

风格。没错，完全就是带着44手枪的约翰·韦恩范儿。他的衣服总是破破烂烂的，后来他开始从事野生动物拍摄，而我从小就成了他的摄影助手。我有两项任务，一是开车——和许多在自然中长大的孩子一样，我六岁左右就学会了驾驶

walk. Yeah. Totally John Wayne with his 44. His clothes are always torn to pieces and he started wildlife filmmaking and I became his camera bearer from a very young age. And I had two jobs, the one was to drive, and like a lot of kids who grow up in nature, I learned to drive from the time I was about six years old.

所以第一项任务是驾驶，第二项是扛摄像机。开车很不容易，比如有天早晨我们发现一群鬣狗正在分食长颈鹿残骸。其中一只叼着巨大的长颈鹿腿在草原上奔跑。他非要拍到镜头，因为捕捉画面在他心里比什么都重要。他喊着：‘玛丽，我们必须拍到这个镜头’

So one job was drive, the second job was camera bearer. The driving job was tough because like in one morning we found a pack of hyenas that were feeding on the remains of a giraffe. And one of the hyenas picked up a giraffe leg and it started to run across the savannah with this gigantic giraffe leg in its mouth. And he wanted to get the shot because getting the shot was like the primarily issue of every mom. He said, Marie, we gotta get the shot.

当时他站在皮卡车后斗，架着三脚架拍摄，由我负责驾驶。他不停喊‘加速加速’，我刚提速他又吼‘别太快会撞车’。接着又喊‘左转左转...右转’。有次他喊左转时我误转右边，而他正往左倾身，结果摔出车斗，摄像机砸中脑袋。这让他暴怒不已，追着要揍我

Now he's set up in the pickup section of a vehicle where he's got a tripod up and a camera and I'm now driving. And he's screaming faster, faster, faster, and then I will speed up and then you'll scream not so fast, you're gonna hit something. And he's screaming left, cut left, cut left, cut right. And on one of these instances he said cut left and I turned to the right, but he was bracing for left. And so he fell off the back of the pickup truck, and the camera hit him on his head, and this put him into a mild rage, which had him chasing me around the vehicle threatening to punch me in the face.

等怒火平息后，他会突然清醒说：‘好了，快去追鬣狗’。所以我大部分心理阴影都来自当摄影助手时的驾驶经历。还有次遇到象群来水坑喝水，他对我说：‘我们悄悄靠近，在岸边找好位置，拍大象饮水的低角度镜头’

And then eventually, like, he he would go into a red mist and then he would come to and say, okay, get off to the hyena. Let's go find it. And so most of my trauma was around driving him around as his camera bearer. Then in another incident, he said to me, it was a herd of elephants that were coming down to a waterhole. And he said to me, okay, we're gonna creep in there, we're gonna get ourselves well positioned on the bank, gonna get a nice low angle shot of these elephants drinking.

于是我扛着摄像机跟他潜行到岸边。他刚开机拍摄，就有头公象转身朝我们走来。我立刻心跳加速——意识到处境危险，周围根本无处可逃

And so I said, okay, let's go. So I'm carrying the camera, he sneaks down to the edge, and he grabs the camera and he starts to film. And this big bull elephant turns and it starts walking towards us. And I immediately felt my heart rate starting to go up because I could tell the position we were in. There were not really a lot of places to go.

他处理那头逼近的大象的方式就是不断拉远镜头。每次大象靠近，他就稍微拉远一点，把它推回去，直到最后它站在离我们五六米远的地方俯视着我们。这时他从摄像机抬起头，转向我说，嘿，伙计，你怎么不告诉我它离得这么近？然后我们就陷入了僵持状态，基本上就是一场对峙。

His way of handling the approaching elephant was to simply zoom out on the camera repeatedly. Every time the elephant got closer, he just zoomed out a bit and pushed it back till eventually it was about five or six meters from us standing over us. And at this point, he looked up from the camera and he turned to me and said, hey, man. Why didn't you tell me it was so bloody close? And then we got into this freeze off where we basically it was just a standoff.

后来他悄悄回头对我说，巴里，如果这头大象冲过来，我要你爬进那边的洞里。那里有个废弃的疣猪洞。他给我设计的逃生路线就是让我钻进那个洞里。所以我们一直处于这种状态：等等，我们现在安全吗？还是处于极度危险中？他在非洲各地都有拍摄营地，其中一个就在肯尼亚。

And at some point, he whispered back to me and said, Barry, if this elephant comes, I want you to crawl into that hole there. And there was like an abandoned warren where some warthogs had made a hole. His And escape route was for me to crawl in there. And so it was just like this constant sense of like, wait, are we okay here or are we in massive danger? He had film camps all over Africa and one of his film camps was in Kenya.

我永远忘不了大约10岁或12岁时，他让我坐在摄影车后部，给了我一把砍刀。当我们开车穿过内罗毕市区时，他对我说，伙计，如果有人想抢我们的摄影器材，就用砍刀砍他们的手。

I'll never forget when I was maybe about 10 or 12, he put me on the back of the film van and he gave me a kind of machete. And he said to me, as we drove through the city of Nairobi, he said to me, Buddy, if anyone tries to grab ahold of any of our camera gear, just hit them on the hand with the machete. This

这简直是保姆界的伦敦特别版。

is like a babysitting Londo edition.

后来他搬到了赞比亚，在那里也设立了拍摄营地。他总是追求完美镜头，而且有种天赋。比如在马赛马拉，当角马群要渡河时，你会看到BBC和探索频道都在固定位置拍摄。而对岸有上百万头角马看似即将渡河，而约翰·瓦蒂却停在400码外看似远离现场的地方。最后时刻整个兽群会突然转向，顺流而下，恰好从他面前渡河。他总有种神奇的本能，能出现在正确位置，对动物行为有着深刻理解。

Then at a certain stage, he moved up to Zambia, and he had a film camp up in Zambia. And he was always trying to get great shots and he had a knack for it, know, like in the Masai Mara where the wildebeest would be crossing the river, you would see the BBC, you would see Discovery Channel, they'd all be parked in a certain position. On the other side of the bank would be a million wildebeests and they all looked like they were about to cross, and then John Varty would be parked 400 yards away, seemingly away from the action. And at the last minute the entire herd would turn, run downriver and somehow manage to cross right in front of him. He had a kind of magical knack for being in the right place, a real profound sense of how animals move and operate.

他身上有种野性。他热爱荒野，热爱置身自然。职业生涯后期，他多次尝试帮助大型猫科动物回归野外。他曾试图让一只被遗弃的幼豹重返自然，还参与过狮子放归项目，找到一只幼狮并努力让它回归野外。

And there was just like a wildness to him. He loved being out there, he loved the wilderness. He later in his career had made a few attempts to rehabilitate cats and get them back into the wild. So he tried to get a young leopard that had been abandoned back into the wild. He involved in a reintroduction of a lion project where he found a lion cub and tried to get it back into the wild.

他做过各种疯狂的事。我们在赞比亚和他同住时，我永远记得我们住在卢安瓜山谷，他有艘小船用来渡河。而卢安瓜河是世界上鳄鱼密度最高的水域，他那艘船只装了个两马力的小发动机。

He did all sorts of things. Mean when we were living with him in Zambia, I'll never forget, we were living in the Luangwa Valley with him and he had a small boat that he would traverse the Luangwa with. And the Luangwa River is the densest population of crocodiles in the world. And the boat he had had a tiny like two horsepower engine on it.

所以它就像一艘小艇，对吧？就像一艘

So it was just like a dinghy, right? Was just like a

那是一艘龟形小艇。船体吃水线以上只有几英寸高。他会往船上装满各种东西，然后搁浅在沙洲上，对我说：'伙计，你得下去推船。'而我看着岸边数百条鳄鱼，对他说：'我...我不想下去。'

It was a turtle dinghy. It had like a tiny, like the top of the boat from the waterline was inches. And he would load it with all sorts of things. Then he would hit the sandbank and he would say to me, buddy, you gotta get out and push the boat off the sandbank. And I would like look up and down the bank where there were hundreds of crocodiles and I would say to him, I I don't wanna get out.

他说：'嘿，老兄，快下去。别当胆小鬼'——他总这么叫我们。'下去推船。'直到有天他发现了一头幼象尸体。他对拍摄有种疯狂的执着。

He said, hey, man. Get out. Stop being a naphtha is what he would call us. But get out, push the boats, and then one day he found a young dead elephant. He was kind of maniacal about getting shots.

他发现一具被河水冲下来的幼象尸体，决定要把大象拖到岸边拴住，然后埋伏在草丛里拍摄鳄鱼来啃食大象的画面。于是他拿着绳子划船靠近大象，对我说：'好了伙计，把绳子绑在大象上。'然后他逆流而上开足马力，但由于大象的拖拽，整整四十五分钟我们原地未动——我是通过观察河岸才意识到这点的。

He found a young dead elephant that had been washed down the river, and he decided what he wanted to do was tow the elephant towards the bank where he could tie it to the bank, and then he would lie in the grass and he would get great shots of crocodiles coming in to feed on the elephant. So he get in the boat, he's got this piece of rope, we get up to the elephant and he says, okay, buddy, tie the rope around the elephant. And then he heads off upstream in the boat. And Tim, when I tell you he took full throttle of the boat and with the drag of the elephant, we went absolutely nowhere for forty five minutes. And only I realized this because I was looking at the bank and I could see that we weren't going anywhere.

船已经全速前进，而他仍固执地试图把大象拖到岸边。最终失败了，我们在原地耗尽了汽油。于是他派我上岸找几把铁锹——因为我们没有船桨。我们用铁锹划船，总算...

The boat was in a full plane and he was just rigorously committed to trying to get the elephant to the bank. Eventually, didn't work. We ran out of gas in exactly the same spot. So then he sent me to the shore to get some spades because we didn't have oars for the boat. So he sent me to get a couple of spades, and we used spades, and we managed

'铁锹'是指铲子那种工具吗？

to Spades have meaning like a shovel?

对，就是铲子。我们最终把大象划到岸边拴好，接下来四天都潜伏在长草丛里，拍摄鳄鱼分食大象的影像。这简直就像是对一个狂野之徒荒诞行径的入门洗礼。

Shovels, yeah. We managed to row the elephant to the shoreline where we tied it to the bank and for the next four days lay in the long grass there while he shot films of crocodiles feeding on this elephant. So it was just a baptism into, like, the ramblings of an incredibly wild person.

所以这里有个问题，我可能从未问过你。我觉得没有。但听着这些故事，我不禁想知道，你是如何看待安全的？因为我想到了现代环境中的人们，比如那些每天沉迷于末日新闻的人。他们就像持续缓慢注射着皮质醇，没有真正的紧迫危险，却有种全天候渗透进日常生活的威胁感。

So here's a question I I may not have ever asked you. I don't think I have. But listening to these stories, I can't help but wonder, how do you orient towards safety? Because I think about people, for instance, in a modern environment, doomscrolling every day. They just have this slow IV drip of cortisol with no real imminent danger, but this perceived threat that is just infused into their daily experience twenty four seven.

然后你听这些故事时会想，好吧。当然我们播客第一期谈话中的某些故事，你差点死于鳄鱼攻击等等，这类事件不胜枚举。再听听你和JV的冒险或消防经历，感觉就像每周二都在掷硬币，随时可能出状况。你如何看待安全与危险？这种态度如何随时间变化？

And then you listen to these stories and you're like, okay. And certainly some of the stories in our first conversation for the podcast, you're almost dying being attacked by crocodiles and this, that, and the other thing, and there's no short list of these incidents. And then you listen to your adventures with JV or firefighting, it's like, okay, on any given Tuesday, you flip a coin and those could have gone sideways in some capacity. How do you orient towards safety or danger, and how has that changed over time?

这确实是我长期挣扎的问题。因为跟随叔叔那些年是把双刃剑。一方面，回想那些事件发生时我的年龄，我记得当时深感力不从心。记得那种'等等，我们在干什么？我不知道该怎么应对'的感觉。而他的理念是人应该能处理任何状况。

It's certainly something I've wrestled with because after all those years with my uncle, there was a double edged sword to it. On the one side, when I think back of how old I was during a lot of those incidences, I remember feeling tremendously out of my depth. And I remember feeling like, wait, what are we doing? And I don't know how to handle this. He was of the mindset that you should be able to handle anything.

他会直接走进危险处境，递给我一把步枪说：'伙计，如果我在那边遇到麻烦，指望你来帮忙'。于是八岁的我就得承担这种责任，感觉必须采取行动却又毫无准备。所以我发现自己某种程度上很分裂——某些事会让我非常忧虑，但忧虑总是发生在事件之前。

I mean, he would walk off into a dangerous situation and he would hand me a rifle and he would say, buddy, if I get into trouble out there, I'm expecting you to help me. And so then I would be left with this like eight year old sense of responsibility and feeling like I'm going to need to take action against this but I'm ill prepared to take action against this. And so I found myself quite split in some ways. On the one hand, I would feel very apprehensive about certain things. And then in other instances, the apprehension was always prior to the incident.

而真正身处险境时，我却总能异常冷静，感觉自己确实有能力应对。现在常思考这点，因为我总有种'无论发生什么我都能搞定'的信念。这是他给我的礼物——一种本能直觉般的临场应变能力。即便在高压环境下，虽然紧张，但仍有部分自我总担心准备不足。

But then in a situation, I always felt very calm and felt like I actually had capability. And I've thought a lot about that now, because I always have a sense that whatever's going to happen, I can handle it. And that is a gift he gave me, a sense that we will figure it out in a very instinctual game time live way. Like I can be in pretty high octane situations, but I'm nervous of it. I still have a part of me that feels like I'm going be ill prepared for what is coming.

这两种状态始终共存于我体内。最近想得很多，特别是刚有了儿子后，常思考如何培养他的能力。我感觉自己具备某种能力感——记得听你采访Chris Sacco时他说年轻人需要更多生活历练，需要在酒吧碰擦过车辆等生活经历。我对此深有体会，但也觉得有些经历超出承受范围，不得不自行消化。

I feel those two places in myself all the time. And I think a lot about recently, obviously I just had a son, and I think a lot about what it would be like to build capability in him. Because I feel like I have a sense of capability. Feel like I listened to your interview with Chris Sacco where he was talking about, you know, just like young people needing to have more incidences in their life, needing to have been in a bar and bumped a car and lived life. And I feel very full of that but I also feel like some of that stuff was over my head and that I've had to manage some of that.

那么我现在如何定位？我认为在所有事上建立能力感和自信心已成为基础。不只是对自己抱有期望，更要花时间意识到：面对新事物时，不该简单认为'我理应能处理'。我学到的教训是必须放慢节奏，逐步建立信心和能力——这才是最终的治愈之道。

So how do I orientate towards it now? I think trying to build a sense of capability and confidence in whatever I'm doing has become ground zero. And not just expect things of myself but actually take the time to realize that if I'm doing something new, my approach to it would be like I should just be able to handle this. And I think what I've learned is that I need to go slower and build confidence and build capability. And that that has been the ultimate healing on those ones.

我在看这个，想确保我们把故事穿插其中，但也可以与其他内容交替进行。我们可能会讲到午餐，也许是托比野鸡。完全不知道那指的是什么。但这里有一个我想单独拿出来看看会引向何处：《十年荒野静修所得》。

So I'm looking at this I wanna make sure we layer in stories, but we can intersperse with other things. So we're gonna get to perhaps lunch, maybe Toby Pheasant. No idea what that refers to at all. But there's one that I want to pull out here just to see where this goes. Learnings from ten years of wilderness retreats.

我是说，你带过各种不同类型的人参加荒野静修。当然，你自己作为参与者、向导、追踪者、协调者，也有过多种多样的经历。在丛林中进行这类静修十年后，你日记里记录的主要心得有哪些？

I mean, you've taken so many different types of people on wilderness retreats. Certainly, you've had many varieties of experiences yourself as a participant, as a guide, as a tracker, as a facilitator. What are some of the kind of main entries in the diary of lessons learned after a decade of doing these types of retreats in the bush?

你知道吗，我觉得每年冬季我都会组织静修。而且感觉每年我们都更清楚静修真正要达成的目标，也做得越来越好。我认为我最珍视的一点是：越能让人们快速进入我所谓的自然状态，转变就会发生得越快。最初在自然中创建转化空间时，我总想促成某些改变。那时我觉得自己的工作就是尽快找出人们在哪里受阻、能量在哪里卡住，然后迅速帮他们觉察这些阻塞、创伤或信念系统该如何转化。

You know, I feel like I run the retreats every year through the winter months. And I feel like every year we get more aware of what we're actually trying to do on the retreats, and we get better at them. And I think the primary thing that I've come to really value is that the faster we can put people into what I would call the natural state, the speedier the uptick of transformation. And I think when I initially started creating transformational spaces in nature, I wanted something to happen. And I felt like my job was to quickly try and figure out where a person was blocked or where there was a kink in the energy and try and rapidly help them develop awareness around how that particular blockage, trauma, belief system could be transformed.

现在我对这事放松多了。实际上，现在我们的静修首日就是进入沉默与自然。我借鉴了玛莎·贝克的观点，她认为自然界是无言的场域。你看动物们没有语言思维，所以不会沉溺过去或未来。狮子不会躺在那儿想：珍妮昨天搞砸了狩猎，以后不能信任她。

And I feel like I've become way more relaxed with it now. In fact, on our retreats now, the first day is into silence and nature. And I have this idea that comes from Martha Beck, where her take on the natural world is that it's a wordless environment. And so if you look at the animals, they don't have verbal minds, so you don't see them thinking past and future. You don't see lions lying there thinking, Janine messed up that hunt yesterday and so we can't trust her going forward.

所以如果能进入无言之境，人们很快就会体验到合一感。现在我发现的要诀是：让人们安静下来，进入更无言的状态，创造机会让他们与自然互动并接收启示，转变就会迅速发生。另一个关键是——我称之为'伦多洛兹时间扭曲'：现在我们会强制收走所有电子设备。因为即便某位公司管理者首日下午进入静默，次日早晨追踪动物后，只要拿起手机看到公司人力资源问题，就会立刻脱离状态。这背后有深刻的生化机制。

And so if you can go into wordlessness, then very quickly people start going into oneness. And so the key thing I have found now is get people to be quiet, get them into more wordlessness, create an opportunity for them to interact and receive lessons from the natural world, and then things rapidly start to happen. The other thing is that I would say is that I say now that when people come they enter into the Londolozi time war, because if you can take away their tech, which we now enforce, I absolutely will not allow any tech. Because what happens is even if a person who's running a company comes and they go into silence the first afternoon and then we go out the next morning and we're tracking an animal and then they get back and they pick their phone up and they've got a human resources issue back at the company, they start to pop out. Because I also think that there's a profound chemistry to it.

当人们进入无言之境，自然声景开始作用，当他们把注意力转向生灵并感受自然界的原型能量时，大脑确实会分泌不同的神经化学物质。神经系统通常会转向副交感主导，进入另一种觉知状态。在这种状态下，内在智慧开始涌现——大约24小时内，某种洞见就会自动浮现，根本不需要刻意努力。

As people go into wordlessness and the soundscape starts to work on them, as they start to put their attention on living things and start to feel those archetypal energies that are in the natural world, literally their brain starts to cascade different neurochemistry. Their nervous system starts to go generally more parasympathetic. And they start to enter into a different state of awareness. And in that state their natural inner knowing starts to spit out by, I would say within the first twenty four hours, something in them will start to know and it will start to spit out insights. And you don't have to work too hard at it.

另一点是：如果你告诉人们'去敞开自己接收自然的教诲'。心灵是如此智慧，尤其在静修场域。很有趣，如果是十天静修，人们会完美适应这十天，该发生的都会发生；如果是两天静修，他们会获得类似体验的片段——心灵知道可用时间。同理，心灵会开始与自然互动，人们会看到并接收与他们当下课题相关的特定信息。

The other is if you say to people, I want you to go and open yourself to receiving lessons from the natural world. The psyche is so intelligent, especially in a retreat space. It's funny, like if you have a ten day retreat, people will orientate perfectly to that ten days and what will need to occur in that ten days will occur. If you said it's a two day retreat, they will get aspects of the same thing, but the psyche will know kind of how much time it has. In the same way, the psyche will start to interact with the natural world and they will start to see and receive messages that are particular to what they are working on.

因此，十年静修的真谛就是不要过度用力。留出空间，让心灵开始与自然建立联系，洞见便会以惊人的速度自然涌现。人们在家也能实践——只需告诉自己：我要去社区公园，我要去自家花园，我带着具体问题而来。把问题写下来，然后明确询问：大自然啊，你能帮我解答吗？这近乎禅宗公案。你怀揣着对答案的渴望，所见之物都会经由心灵的特殊矩阵处理，智慧便由此生发。

And so really, the lesson from ten years of retreats is don't work too hard. Allow the space, allow people's psyche to start to be in relation with the natural world, and then insight will start to naturally develop very, very quickly. And people can do this at home if you start saying, I want to go out into the local park, I want to go out into my garden, and I have a specific question, and you write that question down and you start asking specifically, Nature, could you help me answer that question? It's almost like a Zen koan. You're holding an intention and a desire for certain answers, and then what you see, your psyche will run that through a specific matrix and insight will start to develop.

是的。听你说这些时，我想到几点并做了笔记。其一是人们普遍存在思维定式——以美国人为例，但许多国家都如此——总是偏向追问'我该做什么'，对吧？

Yeah. There are a few things that come to mind as you're saying all this. I took a a number of notes. One is that I think people bias certainly, I'll speak for Americans, but this is, I think, common in a lot of countries, biased towards the question of what should I do. Right?

这种思维会立刻导向加法逻辑，如果这说得通

And it's an immediate tilt towards addition, if that makes

通。不过

sense. But

有时抵达目的地或达成某种状态，恰恰需要移除障碍。你谈到自然状态时，我想起蒙大拿之旅。同行的朋友有的带手机拍照，有的没带。而我刻意将手机留在住处。

sometimes you get to where you want to go or achieve a certain state by removing the obstacles to that state. So when you were talking about natural state, I was thinking of, for instance, when I was on this Montana trip, I had a few friends with me. Some of them had phones, some of them didn't, even just for taking photographs. And I left my phone behind very deliberately.

明智之举。

Smart.

我想说的是，即便不在南非丛林或蒙大拿群山，只要践行'数字安息日'——比如日落后避开强光，暂时摒弃那些从进化角度看极不自然的现代便利——你就能触及这种自然状态。这具体指什么？含义可以很丰富。但就我在伦多洛兹和蒙大拿的体验而言，当摆脱那些人类尚未适应的现代科技，那些依赖了数千年的古老本能与高度进化的能力就会重新激活。

And I feel like if, for instance, you're not in the bush in South Africa, if you're not in the mountains of Montana, if you simply take a digital Sabbath, remove, say, bright light after sundown, do a few things where you're simply removing modern conveniences that are actually very unnatural from an evolutionary perspective, you start to access this natural state. And what the hell does that mean? That can mean a lot of different things. But one for me at least that I noticed at Londolozi, I noticed it certainly in Montana. You can notice it simply walking around without a lot of the modern technologies that we are very much ill adapted for at this point is that these older faculties, these very well developed capacities that we depended on for so many millennia come back online.

或许他们始终在线，但音量调得很低，于是你开始注意到更多细节。这从根本上改变了你日常的感知生活体验。我认为伦多洛兹另一个精妙之处——也是最酷的地方——在于它与野生动物活动同步的功能性。那些清晨的驱车游猎。通常人们会在什么时间起床参加这种清晨的游猎呢？

Maybe they're always online, but the volume is very low, and so you start to notice a lot more. And it just fundamentally changes your perceptual lived experience on a day to day basis. I would say another thing that Londo nails, and what's so cool about it is that it is a function of being synchronized with wildlife activity. That is really early morning drives. So you have the game drives, which are typically what time would you say people are waking up in the morning.

你需要在黎明时分出发，让你的昼夜节律被日出和清晨的凉意所影响。嗯哼。

You wanna go out at dawn, you want your circadian rhythm to be affected by that sunrise and then and the cool of the morning. Mhmm.

是的。通常人们会吃点东西喝杯咖啡，在日出前约三十分钟醒来。这意味着你往往处于倒时差状态。实际上这对很多人有益，因为会产生奇妙的时间膨胀效应——你的体验日感觉像两三天，因为你醒来时天还黑，然后天亮，回来后吃点东西可能再小睡一会儿。

Yeah. So people are generally to get a bite to eat and a cup of coffee, waking up, let's just call it thirty minutes before sunrise, something like that. And what that means is you are typically jet lagged. And I think that actually works to the benefit of a lot of folks because you get this incredible time dilation. Like, your experiential day feels like two or three days because you wake up, it's dark, then it gets light, then you come back and have a bite to eat and probably take a nap.

接着你醒来再次出发，天黑时归来。这种全光谱般的体验让伦多洛兹的一周仿佛两周，就像在蒙大拿山区或任何需要随日出而作的自然环境中那样。随着日落逐渐放松。我发现这种自然状态——我马上结束发言——唤醒那些人类数千年来至关重要的本能，无论是激活它们还是调高感知音量，都能带来难以言喻的滋养与充电效果。然后你会把这种状态带回现代生活。

Then you wake up, you do another drive, it gets dark, and you have this very full spectrum experience that makes a week at Londolozi feel like two weeks, which is very similar to being in the Montana Mountains or really anywhere in nature where you are waking up with light. Are going to generally winding down with the sunset. And I I just find that natural state, and I'll shut up in a second, but bringing those very, very mission critical for millennia faculties online, whether it's by turning them on or just simply turning up the volume so you notice them, to be nurturing and recharging in a way that is hard to put words to. Right? And you carry that back into the modern world with you.

说得太准确了，蒂姆。关于你提到的几点，我想补充的是：很多人参加静修时都带着'下一步该做什么'的焦虑。有人刚卖掉公司，有人要转行，有人经历感情变故。他们带着'接下来怎么办'的疑问而来。

It's spot on, Tim. I mean, the other thing that I would a few things on what you said there. The one is so many people arrive on the retreats with a sense of what to do next. You know, sometimes someone's built a company and sold it, sometimes someone is changing careers, sometimes someone is going through a relationship change. And they arrive, as you say, with this desire of like, what's next?

最让我震撼的是：要进入自然状态，往往首先要放下对'下一步'的执念。我常告诉人们：停止试图寻找答案，别把静修当作获取下个目标的工具。事实上，允许自己不知道，只需融入观日出日落的昼夜节律，看星河轮转。我们现在很注重你描述的这种节奏——我喜欢早起冥想，让晨光自然唤醒，然后进入高强度状态。

And what has struck me so much is in order to open to the natural state, so often the first thing to do is to let go of needing to know what that next thing is. So often when I say to people, stop trying to know and stop trying to use this retreat to get the next thing. And in fact, let yourself not know and just enter into the circadian rhythm of seeing the sunrise and seeing the sunset, watching it go from stars to stars. We work a lot now on this rhythm that you're describing. I like to go out early, drop into meditation, let the dawn break around you, then intensity.

我们需要迅速进入状态并保持专注，需要灵活应变，需要全神贯注地倾听。然后回到营地再次让能量沉淀下来。

We need to switch on and track. And we need to operate well on our feet. We need to be tuned in. We need to listen. Then get back to the camp and drop the energy again.

只有西方文化才总是保持十级能量状态。自然界万物都遵循着紧张、放松、紧张、放松的节奏。当人们允许自己休息时，我意识到我们过去在静修中试图做太多事了。应该给人们高强度时刻，然后留出空间让他们更像动物。这样会唤起某种状态，晚上围坐在篝火旁，让自然成为你的老师。

It's only this Western culture in which is like level 10 energy all the time. Everything in nature moves through intensity, rest, intensity, rest. And as people feel themselves allowed to rest, another insight is I think we used to try and do too much on retreats. Giving people high intensity moments and then spaciousness to be more like an animal. That starts to conjure it and then sit around the fire at night and then let the natural world be your teacher.

另外，我知道你也有过这种体验——让我感到非常惊奇的是，神秘事件发生的频率如此之高。当我初次遇见玛莎并开始理解转变过程时，我还是个喝啤酒、会揍人的家伙。那时我20岁，是个南非人。根本不懂什么转变过程、教练或内在修行，完全没有基础。

The other thing is that, and I know that you've had these experiences, it's really become quite remarkable to me how many mystical things happen. When I first met Martha and I started to understand transformational processes, I was still like a drink a beer, punch someone in the face type of person. I was 20 years old, South African. I did not consider transformational processes or coaching or inner work. I had no grounding in that.

当时听到'动物会传递信息'这种说法，觉得太玄乎了。但现在我见证了最不可思议的事情。比如每次静修都会出现与动物相关的神奇事件：有位女士在圈子里分享说'我生长在酗酒家庭'...

And then also just like, oh, the animals are gonna bring messages. That was all quite woo for me. But I have seen now the most remarkable things. You know, one thing that comes to mind is on every retreat, there will be magical occurrences with the animals. A woman will sit in the circle and she will say, you know, I grew up in a family of alcoholics.

在酗酒家庭长大意味着时刻处于极度危险中。所以我学会了隐形，学会了躲藏，从不敢展现真我——因为被看见就意味着危险。那天下午我们外出时，她坐在敞篷路虎车后座上...

And when you grow up in a family of alcoholics, it's incredibly dangerous all the time. And so what I learned, I've learned to make myself invisible. I've learned to hide. I've never let myself be seen because being seen was dangerous. That afternoon we go out, and she's sitting on the back of an open Land Rover.

一头沉睡的雄狮醒来，起身走向路虎车尾，停下脚步抬头凝视她。这头400磅的连环杀手就这样注视着她的眼睛呼吸着，目光如此炽烈。那种既温柔又强大的气场，那种动物散发的存在感。她起初移开视线，我对她说'你可以回望'。当她转身再次对视时，我能感受到这是她经历过最深刻的心理袒露。

And a male lion that's been sleeping rouses himself, stands up, walks towards the back of the Land Rover, stops, and he looks up at her. He looks into her eyes and is just breathing, gazing at her and it's so intense to be looked at by a four 100 pound serial killer like that. It's something so kind and powerful and the presence that that animal projects. And she looks away initially and I say to her, You can look back. And she turns and she looks back and I can feel it's the most profound revealing psychologically that she's ever been involved in.

之后她内在某些东西改变了，开始允许自己向前迈进。还有个例子：有位参加静修的男士在圈子里说'自从父亲去世后，我完全无法悲伤。明明想崩溃大哭，却怎么也做不到'。头几天确实如此...

And after that, something shifts in her and she's able to start allowing herself to step forward. You know, another one that comes to mind is we had a guy come on a retreat and he's sitting in the circle and he says to me, you know, one thing that has happened is since my father died, I've been totally unable to grieve. Like, know that I want to break open, but I can't get to it. Like, I just can't cry. And for the first few days, that's the case.

第三天我和他交谈时，我们坐在兰多特有的露天茅草平台区。突然有只鸟飞进来，落在他头顶的桉树杆上，俯视着他开始急促鸣叫——这非常反常。偶尔有鸟飞过很正常，但这只鸟特意飞到人群区域鸣叫。

On the third day, you know, I'm sort of talking to him, I'm checking in on him, and we're sitting, you know, Lando has these kind of decks that you sit out on, but there's a thatched area, but it's open. And a bird flies into the thatched area and it lands on the little gum pole over his head. It looks down at him and it starts calling intensely. Very unusual. Sometimes a bird will fly through, but this bird flies into the area where there are people and starts calling.

他抬头看着这只鸟，就在他看到它的那一刻，我看到他眼里涌出泪水，开始哭泣，不停地哭。整整十分钟，他说不出话来。然后他看着我说，这听起来可能很奇怪，但我父亲生前是个狂热的观鸟者。而这种南方布布鸟，是他最爱的鸟类。类似这样的事情频繁发生，让我无法否认。

And he looks up at this bird and at the moment he sees it, I see tears come to his eyes, and he starts to weep, weep, weep. And for ten minutes, he can't talk. And then he looks at me and he says, this is gonna sound so weird, guys, but you know, my father was an avid bird watcher. And this bird, the southern boo boo, was his favorite bird. And, you know, stuff like that is happening so regularly that I can't deny it.

我只是知道奇迹会发生。比如，有位女士正在描述她的创伤经历，说她生命中所有东西都会被夺走。就在她讲述时，她早餐正吃着吐司，一只猴子突然跳下来抢走了她手中的面包。但我确信——我认为原始文化早就明白这点，虽然对我们来说很玄妙——当你开始有意识地与自然互动时，它在某种程度上是能感知的。那片充满生命意识的领域，会感应到你的意图和觉知，然后奇妙的事情就开始发生。

I just know that things will happen, magic will occur. I mean, look, we also had one woman who was describing her trauma and how in her life everything gets taken from her. And while she's describing that she's eating a piece of toast at breakfast and a monkey literally jumped down and snatched the toast out of her hand. But there's definitely a sense, and I think that native cultures knew this, and I think it's woo woo to us, that if you intentionally start working with the natural world, it knows on some level. A field of living sentience, it starts to sense that intentionality and that awareness, and then things start to happen.

我认为人们需要重新被施予魔法。我们正遭受的困境之一就是感官钝化，与奇迹脱节。有时甚至不需要那么玄妙，仅仅是看到一只豹子带着幼崽跃上马鲁拉树的枝头，就会让人感叹：天啊，这就是生命之美。这种体验会以某种深刻的方式触动你。如今我见证了太多这样的时刻。

And I think people need to be re enchanted. I think one of the things that we're afflicted with is that we are dulled down and we are disconnected from magic. And sometimes it doesn't even have to be that woo woo just to see a leopard and her cubs leap up into the branches of a Marula tree and to feel like, God, this is the beauty of it. And to have that affect you in some profound way. I've just seen so much of it now.

我深信自然希望我们疗愈，当我们怀着修复灵魂的渴望接近她时，她是能感知的。

I'm real believer that nature wants us to heal, and nature knows when we come to her with the desire to mend our soul. Just

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这是Wealthfront的付费推广内容。Wealthfront经纪服务并非银行。年收益率可能变动。更多信息请参阅节目描述。其实我意识到，这些话既是对大家说，也是对我自己说——有时候我们总想以牙还牙，稍后我会解释这句话的含义。

This is a paid endorsement of Wealthfront. Wealthfront brokerage isn't a bank. The APY is subject to change. For more information, see the episode description. You know, it also strikes me that I'm speaking to myself as much as anyone else that sometimes we tend to wanna fight fire with fire, and I'll explain what I mean by that.

这种方式往往行不通——当我们通过思维发现问题时，却试图用更多思维去解决问题。或者想着'我再努力些'。但事实上，如果努力能解决的话，问题早该以某种方式解决了。确实如此。正如你所说，还有太多无需言语的广阔天地值得探索。

And it doesn't always work in the sense that we have a problem or we perceive a problem through our thinking, and so we want to use more thinking to fix that problem. Or we think, I just need to try harder. And it's like, well, if trying harder would have solved this, it would have been solved by now in some way. And Absolutely. And there's so much canvas to explore that is, as you mentioned, wordless.

如果你愿意思考这个问题：解脱之道或许存在于言语和概念之外？那会是什么样子？可能就像沉浸在大自然中。我在L'Angelozzi最爱的体验（你知道我去过多次），就是那些静谧的晨间驱车时光。

If you're able to even entertain the question of, you know, what if the path or the relief could be found outside of words and concepts? Right? What might that look like? And what it might look like is spending time in nature. And one of my favorite experiences at L'Angelozzi, and I've as you know, I've been a bunch of times now, is the silent morning drives.

嗯。

Mhmm.

简单解释下这个？你想简要说明吗？

And just to explain that briefly, do you wanna explain that briefly?

或许我可以谈两点。首先想到的是个非常滑稽的轶事——正是这类经历引导我走到今天这场对话。在我成为消防员之前，当我在Londolozi销售市场团队时，有次在伦敦白天向代理商介绍Londolozi，晚上则和同行的朋友受邀参加了个派对。

Well, maybe I could say two things about that. The other is a story comes to mind, very silly anecdotal story. But one of the things that led me to probably all the way to this conversation is when I was prior to my firefighting days when I was on the Londolozi sales and marketing team, I found myself in London. And by day I was seeing different agents and I was telling them about Londolozi. And then we got invited, myself and a friend who I was traveling with, we got invited to a party that night.

那时我正与极其严重的抑郁症抗争。我们做了二十几岁年轻人有时会做的幼稚事——决定参加派对时编造虚假背景故事，整晚扮演角色。当人们问我的职业时，我突然脱口而出说自己是作家。其实那时我连写作的边都没沾过，整个过程让我望而生畏。但在这个派对上，每次说出这个完全胡编的故事时，我都感到体内涌起一丝微弱的能量。

And at that time I was struggling with very, very severe depression. And we did that childish thing that you sometimes do when you're in your twenties where we decided we would go to the party and we would kind of make up fake backstories and kind of be in character for the night. So when people asked me what I would do at that time, out of nowhere I started saying I'm a writer. And I hadn't got even close to writing anything at that stage. I would be totally daunted by the process but when I said it at this party, this total bullshit story I had made up, every time I said it, I felt a little uptick of energy in my body.

不是理智上的认知，不是觉得'这该是你的职业'，而是真切感受到那种微小的能量波动。我决定追随这种波动。回到南非后，我坐在旧电脑前开始写故事。我注意到当投入写作时，抑郁会减轻，或者我会暂时忘记内心积压的阴郁。

Not in my mind, not a rational sense that this is what you should do. I just literally felt like, oh, this little kick of energy. And I decided to follow that little kick of energy. And when I got back to South Africa, I sat down at my old computer and I started writing down stories. And I noticed that whilst I was engaged in the process of writing, the depression would lift or I would not be aware of how much just grey I was carrying around.

清晨醒来时总带着'天啊，又要熬过这一天'的感觉。我顶着头脑中的灰色乌云完成所有职责，但当我坐在电脑前写下些傻气的生活轶事时，突然就有种释然感。我追随着这种感觉。如今我能站在这里，全因追随着体内这种非理性的能量。我清楚什么能让我更有活力、更开阔，然后想办法朝那个方向前进。

I would wake up in my bed and I would have that feeling where you wake up and you just feel like, oh my god, I'm gonna fight to get through this day. And I would do my duties, I would do all the things I needed to do like with this gray cloud around my head and then I would sit down at the computer and I would start to write out some silly anecdotal story and suddenly something would lift. And I would follow that. And literally everything that has brought me to here has been following that non rational energy in my body. I'm aware of what makes me feel a little more energized, a little more expansive, and I just figure out how to move towards that.

要做到这点，你需要片刻静默。对我们来说意义深远的是：游猎行业正在转型。我们努力改变传统模式——过去向导会为你解读荒野，讲解动物习性和妊娠周期，带你接触生物科学。这固然美妙，

Now in order to do that, you do need some stillness. And one thing that has become so profound for us is, you know, the safari business is evolving and I think that we're working hard to change what it is. It used to be you come there, you have your guide who gives you an interpretive wilderness experience, he tells you about all the animals, He describes their habits, their gestation periods. He taps you into the biological sciences. That can be so wonderful.

但这些信息可能只是更多信息。为了带人们进入更深层的无言之境，我们开始尝试让游客在静默中外出体验。希望这种静默能将你带入更深层的境界。同时你还要观察自己的思维——当你注视某物时，可能会不自觉地想'发生了什么？'

And all of that information can be more information. So what we started to do in the attempt to take people into deeper wordlessness was to say you're going to go out and you are going to be in silence. And hopefully that silence pulls you into a deeper place. But what you're also going to do is you're going to watch your mind. And you might be watching, looking at something and you might find yourself saying what's going on there?

'那动物为什么这样做？那是什么动物？这里究竟发生了什么？'只需觉察这些念头，试着摆脱'需要知道'的执念——这正是我们社会的主要状态。只有在东方哲学里，我们才能找到'不知之心'的智慧。

Why is that animal doing it? What animal is that? What's even happening here? Just be aware of that and try and come out of needing to know which is the primary state of our society, right? Only in Eastern philosophy do we find our way to don't know mind.

整个西方思维都建构在'需要知道'之上。所以当你发现自己渴求答案时，放下它，纯粹地去体验。让静默作用于你。感受万物如何以某种智能展开运作——你其实不需要理性认知它，试着在更深层面去感受。

The whole Western mind is structured around needing to know. So if you find yourself needing to know, let that go and just be in pure experience of it. Let the silence work on you. Feel how everything is unfolding with an intelligence and you don't really need to rationally know it. Try and feel it at a deeper level.

人们会向一个男人报告他们回来了。有些人报告感到极度沮丧。有人说，你知道吗，我发现自己的思绪在等待中游移，当我在家时，我该赶六点的火车还是五点的火车去市中心？就像人们的思绪会飘到：我关水龙头了吗？谁在照顾猫？

And to a man people report coming back. Some people report feeling incredibly frustrated. Some people said, you know, I found my mind wondering to wait, when I'm at home, should I catch the six train or the five train downtown? Like people's minds go to, did I turn the tap off? Who's looking after the cat?

但如果你能让它们保持其中，最终你会进入一种不同的感知。然后当你观察动物时，你会进入语言的另一个层面。这就是我所说的第一语言，它是能量的语言。你开始感受到当一只豹子转身用身体的姿态、眼神和头部动作看着你时，它在传递能量。你可以看到猎物物种如何通过不同的神经系统状态，从完全放松到倾听警觉，再到对潜在危险的调适。

But if you can keep them in it, eventually you drop through to a different sense. And then as you watch the animals, you drop into a different layer of language. And it's what I would call the first language, and it's the language of energy. And you start to feel how when a leopard turns and looks at you with the shape of its body, with the look in its eyes, with the way it moves its head, it is conveying energy. And you can watch the prey species move through different nervous system states from totally relaxed to listening and aware to attuned to potential danger.

你能感受到它们移动身体时，每一种状态都有其对应的感觉。你可以在自己体内感受到那种感觉。而了解这种感觉，我认为正是原生文化更多运作的地方。其核心是一种深刻的连接感，因为一旦你懂得这种语言，就能感受到自己与每个生物的联系。当你能看着一只豹子，无需言语就感受到它的能量，感受到它向你传递的信息时，你们就能进行那样的对话。

And you can feel how as they move their bodies, every one of those states in their body has a feeling to it. And you can feel that feeling in your own body. And getting to know that feeling is where I think it's definitely more where native cultures operated. And inside of it is a deep sense of connectivity because you can feel yourself relating to every creature once you know that language. When you can look at a leopard and without any words between you feel its energy, feel what it's conveying to you, you can be in a dialogue like that.

蒂姆，我相信你也有过这种经历——在萨满仪式中，当我与治疗师们相处时，我记得曾在药草空间里问我的老师：你会教我吗？为什么你不肯教我？他对我说：嗯，感觉还没到位。而我回答：不，我是在请求你。

And I'm sure you've had this, Tim, but in shamanic ceremonies and when I've been around healers, you know, I remember once asking to my teacher in the medicine space, will you teach me? Why won't you teach me? And he said to me, well, the feeling is not there yet. And I said to him, no. I'm asking you.

他说：是的。但我能感受到你的不信任。无论你对我说什么，你在能量层面散发的感觉仍然充满不信任。只有当我们之间的感觉不同时，我才会开始教你。对我来说，那个空间充满了第一语言的能量，事物之间的能量。

He said, yeah. But you I can feel your distrust. Whatever you say to me, the feeling you energetically are giving off is still there's still too much distrust. And only when the feeling is different between us will I start to teach you. And to me, that space was so full of that first language energy, the energy between things.

是的。我还想向各位强调，虽然这听起来可能很抽象或深奥，但我们讨论的内容在现代日常生活中也有实际应用。有几个我们共同熟悉的名字浮现在脑海。一个是戴安娜·查普曼（我们俩都认识她），她的'全身肯定法'强调通过动觉和身体感受来做各类决策——小到选择菜单上的菜品，大到决定是否与某人建立可能改变事业的高风险合作伙伴关系。

Yeah. I I wanna also maybe underscore for folks that this might sound very abstract or esoteric, but there are real direct applications of what we're talking about to everyday modern life as well. And a few names that we know in common come to mind. One is Diana Chapman, who we both know, of course, and the whole body yes and really tuning into your kinesthetic, your bodily sensations for making decisions of various types, for choosing things. Could be as simple as something on a menu, could be something as high stakes as to say yes or no to a potentially huge business partnership with a given person, let's just say.

我曾邀请她上过播客，想深入了解'全身肯定法'及其操作方式的朋友可以收听那期节目。另一个例子如你所说——特别是以美国为例（其他文化在这方面差异很大），认为人从起床到合上笔记本电脑都保持10分精力的想法是与自然界相悖的。这根本不是世界的运作方式。

And I've had her on the podcast. People can listen to that episode for more on the whole body yes and how to navigate that if we don't get into it now. Another that comes to mind, as you said, that the particularly, let's just I'll it to The United States for now because other cultures are quite different in this respect with CS does and so on. But the idea that you wake up and you just go 10 out of 10 from when you wake up to when you close your laptop is anathema to the natural world. That's just not how things work at all.

如果你参与比如狩猎旅行，在大自然中度过时光，尤其是进行任何形式的狩猎活动，你就会意识到这些自然节律的存在。比如去猎麋鹿时，你可能花几个小时做各种准备，然后就直接休息——因为动物们也歇息了，我们找不到它们，它们处于不活跃状态。

And if you engage in, say, going on safari, if you spend time in the natural world, certainly if you do any type of hunting, you realize there are these natural rhythms. So if you go on, let's just say, an elk hunt or something like that, you may spend a few hours doing x, y, and z, and then just bed down. You're like, the animals are bedded down. We're not gonna find them. They're inactive.

这时候强行寻找会极其困难。与其浪费精力，不如吃点零食小憩片刻。我知道在Zoom会议间隙吃零食打盹可能显得不合时宜，但关键在于——就像我们的共同好友乔希·维茨金所说（对不熟悉这个名字的听众：他是我800多期播客中第二位嘉宾），他最出名的事迹是《寻找鲍比·菲舍尔》原型，这位自幼成名的国际象棋高手将他的学习心法应用到了多个领域。

It's gonna be incredibly difficult. So instead of waste our energy, we're gonna take a have a snack, and take a nap. And I recognize that, you know, having a snack and taking a nap may not make sense in between your Zoom calls, but the point is that if you talk to someone like Josh Waitskin, another mutual friend of ours, who for those who don't recognize the name, he was he was my second ever podcast on this podcast out of 800 something plus. And he's gonna hate this, but he's known best for searching for Bobby Fischer. He was a very high level chess player beginning at a very young age, but has applied his learning approach to mastery in a number of different fields.

他是太极推手世界冠军，马塞洛·加西亚（九届巴西柔术世界冠军）授予的首位黑带，如今又能在巨浪上进行超高水平的冲浪。当乔希观察这些不同领域的顶尖 performers，包括与他合作的精英运动员们（比如凯尔特人队，虽然不确定是否已公开）直至金融界最顶尖的1%人群时——

World champion in tai chi push hands, first black belt under Marcelo Garcia, nine time world champion in Brazilian jiu jitsu, now foiling at a very, very high level on huge waves. And what does Josh say when he looks at all of these world class performers in these different disciplines, when he looks at the people he works with directly ranging from sports at a very high level. I don't know if it's public yet. I think it is. Yeah.

他的核心信条之一（我这样转述他应该不介意）就是'避开文火慢炖状态'。以马塞洛·加西亚为例：世界锦标赛开赛前五分钟，工作人员满场找他，结果发现他在看台下睡觉。

The Celtics, for instance, all the way to the absolute 1% of 1% in, say, the finance world. One of his mantras, and I don't think he'll mind me paraphrasing this, is avoid the simmering six. And avoiding the simmering six is if you look at, say, Marcelo Garcia before he's gonna compete in a world championship mat, they're running around trying to find him because it's five minutes to go time. And where is he? He's sleeping under the bleachers.

他让自己完全归零。醒来后抖擞精神，在走上垫子前的200英尺距离里，瞬间将状态调到十成火力——从完全休息直接切换到全神贯注，而不是长期处于皮质醇持续分泌的交感神经过度兴奋状态。

He's taking a nap. He's at zero. And then he wakes up, shakes it off, and then in the 200 feet before he gets on the mat, he switches it to a 10. And he's going from rest to full engagement. He's not sitting in the middle with that IV drip of twenty four seven cortisol and sympathetic overdrive.

这正是他刻意避免的，也是他能集中资源全力投入、制霸赛场的关键。金融界那些在高风险环境中做交易决策的精英们同样如此。我笨拙地想表达的是：即便我每天身处纽约——这个名副其实的不夜城，

That is deliberately what he is avoiding, and that is in large part how he is able to partition resources to engage so fully and dominate competitively. And that's also true for people in the finance world who are working in very high stakes environments for making decisions around placing trades and so on. So it has what we're talking about, this is just my somewhat clumsy way of saying that I, every day, I'm sitting in New York City for God's sake. This is I mean, it is the concrete jungle, but it is the city that never sleeps. Right?

某种程度上与自然生活背道而驰的地方——仍能借鉴这些经验。在如此高压环境中应用这些法则需要些变通，但确实能快速见效。戴安娜·查普曼和乔希·维茨金的例子证明，这些原则具有普适性，哪怕听起来有些另类。

It is is in some ways the the antithesis of living at Londo. Nonetheless, I can take a lot of the lessons learned that you see so clearly there, and you have to squint a little bit to apply it here in such an intense environment, but you can, and you actually really get benefit very quickly from doing so. So Diana Chapman, Josh Waitzkin. Just wanna point out how broadly these themes apply even if they seem to some people listening maybe a bit exotic.

嗯，是的，我知道。说得很好。

Mhmm. Yeah. I know. That's well said.

火。我感觉你正要投入某件事。

Fire. I felt like you were just about to jump into something.

不，我是说，只是信息。个人转变的所有道路都指向你内在的信息。你其实知道。它就在你体内，就像狮子知道如何做狮子，豹子知道如何做豹子那样。

No. I mean, just the information. All roads in personal transformation lead to the information is inside you. You actually know. It's in you in the way that lions know how to be lions and leopards know how to be leopards.

如果你想找到通往最充分表达自我的道路，它就在你体内。这是一个减法过程，腾出空间让这些信息浮现。其中很大一部分就是让自己跟随人、地点、经历的非理性能量流动——当你真切感到身体充满一种扩张的生命能量时，擅长追随这种感觉就是终极的追踪之道。

If you want to find your way to your fullest expression, it's in you. It's subtractive, making the space to allow that information to come forward. And a big part of that is just letting yourself follow the energy of the nonrational energy of people, places, experiences where you literally feel your body full of an expansive alive energy, and getting good at following that is the ultimate tracking.

全然活力和其他乔氏哲学。完全活着。Jim Detmer也上过播客，也是我们共同的朋友。如约而至，我们要在这些话题间跳跃了。我准备了午餐和托比野味。

Full aliveness and other Joshism. Fully alive. Jim Detmer too has also been on the podcast and a and a mutual friend of ours. Let's as promised, we're gonna kinda hop between these tracks. I've got lunch and Toby Pheasant.

你想去哪里？或者我们可以选择C选项，如果你想到其他选择的话。

Where do you wanna go? Or we could choose option c if there's another one that comes to mind.

让我讲讲我和朋友托比的故事。托比是个英国人，我相信你不介意我把这个故事讲给数百万人听。托比曾带着家人来参加游猎活动，那是很久以前的事了，大概二十年前吧。他和家人玩得非常开心，他那种极佳的能量和态度，最终说服我们让他留下来在营地打杂。所以当他的家人飞走后，托比留了下来。他很快融入了伦多洛兹的村庄，并承担了所有最脏最累的活儿。

Let me tell you about my friend Toby and I. So Toby was an Englishman, and I'm sure you won't mind me telling this story to millions of people. Toby came on safari with his family, and this is quite some time ago now, maybe a good twenty years ago, came on safari with his family and he had such a great time and he had such a great energy and attitude about him that he managed to convince us to let him stay on as a kind of general hand around the camp. And so when his family flew off, Toby stayed on. And he immediately got integrated into the village of Londolozi and he picked up all of the worst jobs.

他必须每天傍晚清理那些熄灭的灯笼。有段时间他还在粉刷沐浴区。每次我见到他时，他总是在营地里跑腿办事。有一天托比和我正坐在员工餐厅，无线电传来消息说有客人报告在房间里看到了一条蛇。于是我和另一位护林员说，好的，我们去处理。

He had to clean the lanterns that get put out every evening. At one stage he was painting an ablution block. And just every time I saw him he was on some kind of like errand around the camp. One day Toby and I were sitting down at the staff canteen and a radio call in that some guests had reported that they had seen a snake in their room. So myself and another ranger said, okay, we'll go handle this.

托比说，伙计们，我能一起去吗？托比，跟我们来吧。于是我们跳上一辆高尔夫球车——在保护区后勤区人们通常这样代步。我们开车到护林员房间取捕蛇棍，那根棍子有个绰号叫‘五五开’，因为它构造相当简陋：就是一根PVC管，里面穿了根灯绳做成套索。

And Toby said, guys, do you mind if I come along? Toby, come with us. And so we jumped into a golf cart, which sort of is how people get around in the back of house of the reserve. We jumped into a golf cart and we went up to the ranger's room to fetch our snake catching stick, which had picked up the name fifty fifty because it was a bit of a Heath Robinson. It was a piece of PVC pipe that someone had run a lamp cord through that had made a kind of noose.

它的用法是把末端的绳圈套住蛇，然后拉紧灯绳，理论上套索会收紧捉住蛇。但某些位置有点不灵光，有时无法完全闭合，所以得了‘五五开’这个外号。我们拿着‘五五开’和一个大黑垃圾桶，跳上高尔夫球车驶向客房。

And the way that it worked is you would get the loop at the end of the stick around and then you would pull on the cord and technically it should tighten up and catch the snake in the noose. But it was a little bit niggly in certain places. Sometimes it wouldn't close all the way. So it had picked up the nickname fiftyfifty. So we grabbed fifty fifty and a big kind of like black dustbin, and we jump into the golf cart, and we drive down to the room.

托比挂在车尾。我们到达房间时，两位德国客人看起来惊魂未定。说实话蒂姆，我当时给了他们最笃定的‘别担心’表情——年度最佳游猎向导在此坐镇。

Toby's hanging on the back of the vehicle. We get down to the room, and there are two German guests who are looking somewhat shocked. And I'm gonna be honest with you, Tim, I gave them my most powerful don't worry. I'm here now. The safari guide of the year has arrived.

你们无需忧虑，我这就进去解决问题。于是他们留在门口，我和托比及另一位向导进了房间。房间里出现蛇很罕见，但偶尔会有家蛇或绿花丛蛇溜进来。我们四处查看时，我注意到行李架上一个空行李箱，掀开箱盖的瞬间，里面昂然而起的竟是我此生见过最大的黑曼巴之一。

You don't need to worry. I'm gonna go in there and sort the situation out. And so they were left standing at the door and myself and Toby and the other guide went in. And it's very rare to have a snake in a room but sometimes a little house snake or a green variegated bush snake will get in. So we're walking around and I noticed the suitcase on the rack, an empty suitcase, and I flipped the lid open, and what rose out of the suitcase was one of the biggest black mambas I've ever seen in my life.

它简直是从箱子里悬浮出来的。

It kind of levitated out of the case.

你能解释下为什么这不是普通的园丁蛇吗？

Do you wanna explain why that isn't your garden variety gardener snake?

黑曼巴蛇不仅毒性极强，而且行动敏捷，在狭小空间里极难对付。一旦被它咬伤，很快就会丧命。所以我和托比还有另一位向导，三人同时冲向门口。我记得我们三个挤在门框里，都想高速逃离那个房间。

A black mamba is it not only is an extremely venomous snake, but it is highly mobile and very difficult to handle in a confined space. And if it bites you, you die quickly. So myself and Toby and the other guide, we went for the door at the same time. And I remember the three of us kind of jammed in it as we were trying to exit the room at high speed.

活像三个活宝。

Three stooges.

我可能还伸手抓住他们的脸好把自己拽出去。跑到外面后我对德国人说：'里面有条大蛇'。他们回答：'是啊，有人告诉我们了'。现在我们面临两难境地，他们正盯着我们看。于是我们决定：'不，好吧，既然知道要对付什么了，必须再进去'。

And I might have reached forward to grab their faces to pull myself through. We got outside and I said to the Germans, there's a big snake in there. And they said, yeah, I'll be told you. And so now we're faced with a bit of a dilemma and they're watching us. So we decide, no, okay, we know what we're dealing with now, we must go back in.

我们重新进入房间，踮着脚尖四处搜寻，掀开坐垫，扯掉床罩。德国人站在外面看到的景象是：一个枕头从屋里飞出来——因为你不能慢慢掀开，得猛地扯开查看下面。接着他们看见椅子飞出来，然后是羽绒被从他们面前掠过。

And so we make our way back in, and now we are tiptoeing around the room, and we're flipping up cushions, and we're pulling bedspreads off. And what the Germans see standing outside is they see like a pillow fly out the room because you don't want to lift it slowly. You want to kind of like rip it open and see what's under it. Then they see a chair fly out. Then they see like a duvet come flying past them.

此时的托比站的位置让人极度不适——离得够近碍事，但又不近到能真正帮忙。他还不停解说黑曼巴的危险性：'被它们咬到会立即死亡，微量毒液就足以致命'。

Toby at this stage has positioned himself for maximum discomfort. He's close enough to be in the way, but he's not close enough to be fully helpful. And he's giving us a running commentary on the dangers of black mambas. He's saying, if they bite you, you will die instantly. Their venom is deadly in tiny quantities.

我说：'托比，你这是在帮倒忙。能闭嘴吗？'记得有次我们扯下床上的羽绒被罩，发现床铺铺着电热毯，电线脱落时像蛇一样扭动，吓得我们集体后仰。最终我们在床底发现了蛇，我朋友'五五开'成功靠近，抓住了曼巴蛇。通常要抓蛇头后方，然后装进袋子。

I'm like, Toby, you are not helping the situation. Can you please shut up? And I remember at one stage, we pulled the duvet cover off the bed, and the bed had a it had an electric blanket on it and the cable of the electric blanket came off and it made like a snake like motion and all of us like reared backwards. And eventually we saw the snake under the bed and my friend managed to get fifty fifty down there, and he gripped the mamba. Now what you normally wanna do is you wanna get it behind the head, then you grab it behind the head, and then you put it in a bag.

他抓到了蛇身中段，这条约两米半的蛇在捕蛇棍末端疯狂旋转。它们身体极具弹性力量，整条蛇在棍端剧烈甩动。后来它转身顺着棍子缠绕上来，蛇头离我朋友的手只有这么近，但'五五开'始终没松手。

He managed to grab it mid body, and it was maybe a two and a half meter snake. And so that mamba went full propeller on the end of the snake catching stick. It was like whipping around, and part of them is they've got this incredible elastic powerful body. So it was like a lot of snake whipping around on the end of the stick, and then it turned and it curled its way up the stick, but fiftyfifty held it. And eventually its head was about that far from my friend's hand, but he had it.

距离手只有六英寸。太可怕了。

Like six inches from the hand. Terrifying.

我们觉得试图把它放进桶里太麻烦了，所以决定直接带着它离开营地。现在我们绕过那些表情不安的德国人，走向高尔夫球车，由我来驾驶。想象一辆标准的高尔夫球车：我开着车，朋友站在旁边，手里举着那根挂着巨蛇的棍子。这时托比跳上了车后座。

And we decided it's gonna be too much to try and get it into the bucket, so we're just gonna ride it out the camp. And so now we make our way out past the perturbed looking Germans and we go to the golf cart and I'm driving. And you have to imagine a standard sort of golf cart. I'm driving, my friend is standing next to me and he's holding the stick out with the giant snake on it. And then Toby jumps onto the back of the golf cart.

我们开始驶离营地，车子颠簸前行。就在即将离开营地时，有个装有电网的大门用来阻挡大象和水牛。当我们接近大门时，我那满脑子想着距离手仅六英寸毒蛇的朋友，为了通过门柱收起了棍子。这时车后座的托比向左看去，发现黑曼巴蛇已经完全贴在他脸旁，相距仅三英寸。作为司机的我向左瞥去，记得当时车速很快，余光看见托比突然从车上弹了出去。

And we start making our way out of the camp and we're kind of like bouncing along. Just as you exit the camp there's kind of a gateway where there's an electric fence that keeps the elephants and the buffalo out. So as we approach that, my friend who's thinking about the snake that's six inches away from his hand, he pulled the stick in to allow for us to pass through these two pillars of the gate. When Toby on the back looked to his left, the black mamba was now fully adjacent to his face, with about three inches between him and the snake. And Tim, from where I was driving, I remember looking to my left, and the golf cart was going quite fast, and I saw Toby take off in my peripheral vision.

当我向左看时，他的脚已经高过了车顶。他从车后座像火箭发射般弹射出去。我继续驾车前行，回头望去，只见他仍呈垂直轨迹飞越灌木丛。

And as I looked to my left, his feet were passing where the roof of the golf cart was. He had exploded off the back of that golf cart. It looked like someone had shot a rocket into space. As I drove off, because I kept moving, I looked back. He was still heading in a vertical direction over a bush.

那绝对是个漂亮的背越式跳高动作，垂直弹跳高度足有五到六英尺。最后看到他时，他像飞盘下坠般逐渐消失在灌木丛后方。我们离开营地后放生了那条蛇，然后面面相觑，目瞪口呆地调头返回营地。刚进营地大门，就看见托比站在路中央，脸上写满震惊与敬畏。

It must have been a good like in a high jump turn, it was a good a solid five to six foot vertical explosion. And the last I saw of him, he was like petering out and disappearing over the bush like a frisbee falling. And I remember we got out of the camp and we released the snake and the snake went off into the bush. And my friend and I looked at each other, we're absolutely wide eyed, and we turned and we begin to make our way back into the camp. And as we came through the gate of the camp, standing in the middle of the road, with a look of shock and awe on his face was Toby.

我们开车靠近他，他对我说的第一句话让我永生难忘——他直视着我的眼睛说：这太不可思议了。不久后他回了英国，好像短暂进修过，但很快又重返南非成为野生动物导游。现在他经营着一家旅游公司，在英国想去非洲旅行的人可以搜搜看，应该叫博纳米旅游。

And we drove up to him, and the first things he said to me, I'll never forget it, he looked me dead in the eye and he said, that was incredible. Shortly after that, he went back to England and he had to I think he went and studied briefly, but very quickly he came back to South Africa and he became a safari guide. And he actually now runs a travel company. You can look him up if you're in The UK and you want to come to Africa. I think it's called Bonami Travel.

我常想，这些故事的结局往往出人意料。本以为遭遇这种事会让人打包行李逃回英国，结果恰恰相反。他回到非洲成为导游，至今仍在经营野生动物旅游公司。我经常思考这类事：那些看似灾难的经历，最终却成了人人向往的冒险。

And I always think that so often what emerges out of these stories is not what you think. You would think that an encounter like that would be like I'm packing up and moving back to The UK, but it is actually quite the opposite. He moved back to Africa, became a safari guide and still runs a safari company to this day. And I think about that often, like things that have gone wrong that I would thought that would be the end of people turn out to be the adventure that everyone's looking for.

那么来谈谈如何以不同方式评估危险吧。你喜欢跑步，亚历克斯，这位追踪大师也喜欢跑步，你们经常在城外跑步对吧？就是那种长途愉快的跑步。通常来说，如果遇到熊、狼或大型猫科动物，你是不该逃跑的。

So just to to talk about calibrating danger differently, You like running. Alex, also master tracker, likes running, and you guys just go running outside of the gates. Right? You just go for a long nice run. Now typically, for instance, if you run into a bear or a wolf or a big cat, you don't wanna run.

因为逃跑是猎物的行为。这会强烈激发捕食者的追逐本能。但你们当时进行高强度训练是为了什么？能聊聊这个吗？

Like, run is what prey do. This is a strong prey drive signal. But you guys were training very intensely for what? Can you talk about this?

可以，我们来说说。

Yeah. We can.

这简直太疯狂了。不过还是让你们来介绍吧，因为某种程度上这确实令人难以置信，也难以想象。

This is fucking wild. In any case, I'll let you introduce it because it's just so, on some levels, hard to believe and hard to envision also.

你是指耐力追猎吗？

You you mean persistence?

是的，正是。

Yes. I do.

在我看来，我的朋友亚历克斯是世界上最顶尖的追踪专家之一。他撰写过多部相关著作，是追踪者学院的创始人。亚历克斯·范登赫夫毕生的使命就是保存土著智慧，特别是追踪这门艺术形式。我认为在南部非洲，他为教授、培训和保存追踪技艺所做的贡献无人能及。

My friend Alex is one of the best trackers in the world in my opinion. He's authored many books on it. He's the founder of the Tracker Academy. And his singular mission, Alex van den Hefe, his singular mission has been to preserve indigenous wisdom, particularly the art form of tracking. And I think in Southern Africa, he's done more to teach, train, and preserve tracking than anyone else.

我们与卡拉哈里沙漠布须曼人结缘的起点，是他前往并与一群布须曼人共同生活了几天。这个族群有许多不同称呼，有人称他们为'沙民'，但他们请求我们称其为'布须曼人'，他们说：'我们是布须曼族人。'

And what started out our journey to be with the Bushmen people in the Kalahari was he went up and he ended up spending a few days with a group of Bushmen. There's a lot of different names. Some people refer to them as the sand people. They asked us to call them Bushmen. They said, we are the Bushmen people.

请称呼我们为布须曼人。因此我将如此称呼他们。在那段相处时光里，他被这个族群展现的生态智慧所震撼。有次这些人追踪一只豪猪长达约10公里。夜晚他们就围着篝火露宿。

Please call us Bushmen. So that's how I will refer to them. And during that time with them, he was blown away by the ecological intelligence of this group of people. These guys tracked a porcupine one day for, like, 10 kilometers. They would sleep around the fire at night.

通常在荒野过夜时需有人守夜。当亚历克斯询问他们谁来守夜时，这个问题反而让他们困惑。他们说：'为什么要守夜？'——而这可是在完全原始的荒野地带。

Now normally when you sleep out in the wild at night, someone keeps watch. And so Alex asked them, who's going to keep watch? And they were actually of perturbed by this. They said, well, why would we need to keep watch? And this is in a full on wilderness area.

亚历克斯追问：'如果有野兽来袭呢？'他们答道：'任何动物靠近前我们都能感知到。'确实，哪怕鬣狗经过，他们中也有人会自然醒来。这种感知能力完全超出常规。亚历克斯目睹后深感震撼。

Alex said, well, what if an animal comes? And they're like, an animal will never come here without us not being able to feel it. Literally, if a hyena walks by or something, one of them will wake up. So they're attuned at a very different level. And Alex saw this and he was blown away by it.

这就是最初的考察。随后我们收到邀请，希望我们以考察队形式重返，评估那些尚存的生存技能。我们想了解布须曼人还保留着哪些传统能力——作为地球上受迫害最严重的原住民，他们被不断驱逐，我们想知道其原始追踪知识是否已经失传。

So that was the initial trip. And what resulted in that is a request was made that we would come back as a group, an expedition, and we would assess the skills that were still kind of alive and functioning. We wanted to get a sense of what was possible still and what people still knew how to do because the Bushman people are probably the most persecuted native people on the planet. You know, they've been displaced from everywhere. And so it was to go and say like has their initial tracking knowledge been lost or what still exists?

这成为我们前往该地区的初衷。经过数日初步评估，我们发现现状非常特殊：现代布须曼人生活在城镇中，失去大量土地后从事农场劳工等工作。某些南部非洲国家政府会提供约400美元（或普拉/兰特）的补助金。

So that was what initially called us to the area. And we spent a few days starting to assess that process. And it is quite remarkable because Bushman people now are living in a very interesting way. They mostly live in the towns, they've been pushed off a lot of their land, and they do various jobs in farm labor, etc. The governments of some of those Southern African countries provide a stipend of like $400 or pula or rand.

表面看来，许多人依赖政府补助似乎会导致传统技能失传。但事实上，约70%的食物他们仍从沙漠采集获取。这种都市生活表象下，他们依然保持着与沙漠共鸣的生存方式。最令人惊叹的是，布须曼人从不储存食物——与其他部落不同，他们认为整片沙漠就是他们的储藏室。

So you would think that a lot of the indigenous skills had been lost because a lot of people are on this kind of like, it's not the doll, but it's like a government supplement. And yet about 70% of the food that most Bushman communities are still getting, they're gathering from the desert. And so they're living in this kind of urban way, and yet underneath the surface if you connect in, there's still this way that they are living in tune with the desert. One thing about the Bushmen people is that they never stored food, unlike other various tribes who would have like a storehouse where they kept food. To them, the desert is their storehouse, which is quite an amazing idea.

这里完全没有囤积或储存的必要，因为这是一种富足心理。你需要的一切都唾手可得。

There's just like there's no sense of needing to hoard or store because it's an abundance psychology. There's everything you need is there.

当你说它是沙漠时，为了让人们能想象出画面，我是说，它确实是沙漠。根据我看过的视频，这里零星分布着些低矮灌木，但整体是非常典型的沙漠环境。

And when you say it's desert, just for people who are trying to conjure an image, I mean, it's desert. It is like a little scraggly bush here or there, at least based on the video I've seen, but it's very much a desert environment.

有些区域是半干旱地带，生长着这些坚韧的灌木丛，而其他地方则是红色沙滩般的沙地，走在上面就像海滩漫步。沙质如此松软，有些地方被地松鼠挖出巨大的群落洞穴，行走时会突然陷落。因此在那里行动可能非常非常困难。

There's areas where it's like semi arid where you have these harsh bushes, and then there's other places where you are in red beach sand. It would be akin to walking on the beach. It's so sandy. There's places where ground squirrels have these huge colonies, so as you walk you fall down because the ground underneath has been hollowed out. So it can be very, very tough operating there.

我们花了几天时间跟随不同的布须曼人群体，被带入沙漠深处，目睹人们以惊人耐力缓慢穿行沙漠的震撼场景。他们会挖出块茎或根茎，切下一段分食后，将剩余部分重新埋回沙土。他们从不取走整株食物，总是留部分继续生长。特别是跟随采集的女性行走时，我强烈感受到这种场景可能发生在三百年前，也可能发生在三百年后——无论时代如何变迁，这些人与环境的契合度都达到了超凡境界。

And so we spent a few days with different groups of bushmen, and we were taken out into the desert, and we watched this incredible energy of people moving very slowly through the desert, and they will dig up a tuber or a root, they'll cut a section of it, everyone will eat some of it, and then they will replant it back into the desert. They'll never take a whole piece of food. They'll take a portion of it and then they'll put it back under the soil to grow. And walking, particularly with the woman as they gather, I had this feeling that we could have been three hundred years in the past or three hundred years in the future. There was such a strong sense that whatever happens, these people are attuned to their environment at a different level.

随后我们获邀参与这项可能是地球上最古老的狩猎方式——耐力追猎。关于这种狩猎方式的记载遍布各种地形，包括雪地（雪鞋赋予人类优势），其核心就是持续追踪直到猎物精疲力竭。要完成这种狩猎，需要惊人的技能组合：首先需要超强的体能，能在沙漠酷暑中长时间行进。

And then what emerged out of that is we were invited to participate in probably the oldest practice of hunting that exists on the planet, is persistence hunting. Persistence hunting, there's accounts of it across many, many different terrains, including in the snow, where the snowshoe tipped the advantage towards people, but it is the pursuit of an animal until the animal tires. And so in order to do it, you need an incredible skill set. One, you need an unbelievable fitness. You need to be able to move for a long period of time and in the peak heat of the desert.

其次需要能在奔跑状态下追踪猎物的高超技巧。沙漠某些区域可能相对容易，但正午时分绝非易事。我原以为沙漠沙地会简单些，其实不然——当太阳升至正午（正是需要高温时段行动时），地面完全失去明暗对比。

Two, you need to be able to track at a level where you're tracking it at a run. That can be easy in parts of the desert, but man, it is not easy at midday. I thought it would be easier in desert sand. It's not easy because as the sun gets to 12:00, which is when you wanna be doing it at peak heat, it throws no contrast onto the ground.

我正想说完全没有阴影对吧？确实。

I was gonna say no shadows. Right? Yeah.

没有阴影。我们受邀参与其中，当时我们在想，这种技艺是否还存在？谁知道怎么做？

No shadows. We were invited to be a part of this, and we were seeing, you know, is this still alive? Is this who knows how to do this?

随便说几个数字吧，你可以用华氏度满足人们，如果可能的话同时提供摄氏度和华氏度。虽然要求有点多。但当我们谈论布须曼人的耐力狩猎时，具体是多远的距离或时间？比如要花多久？还有温度范围是多少？

Just to throw some numbers out there, you can indulge people with Fahrenheit well, give people Celsius and Fahrenheit if if that's possible. It's asking a lot. But when we're talking about a persistence hunt for the Bushman, what type of distances or time are we talking about? Like, how long does it take? And then what kind of temperatures are we talking about?

蒂姆，这很有意思。我记得克雷格·福斯特拍摄的那次大约是30公里，耗时五六个小时。但我在当地发现了一个奇妙的规律——横轴是温度，纵轴是时间。温度升高，所需时间就会缩短。

You know, Tim, it's really interesting because I think in the one that Craig Foster filmed, it was around 30 kilometers over about five or six hours, something like that. But what I discovered being there is that there's this incredible equation, and the equation is is heat on one axis and time on the other? So as the heat climbs, the amount of time reduces.

距离也会缩短。

The distance goes down.

没错。距离确实会减少。但还有个有趣的因素：之前是什么季节？连续干旱了几季还是刚过雨季？因为猎物的身体状况影响很大。

Yeah. Right? Distance reduces. But then there's also an interesting factor, which is what type of season has it been? Has it been dry for a few seasons in a row or have you had a rainy season because the condition of the animal has a huge effect?

我们在那里时正逢多年干旱的末期，这是重要背景。虽然受邀参与，但这种狩猎方式已沉寂多年。人们讨论着谁还掌握技巧、是否失传。我们打听时得到的回答都是‘没人会这个了’。

So one thing that happened while we were there is that they're on the back end of a number of years of drought. That was a big kind of factor. So that's all going on and what emerged is that we were invited to be a part of this, but it hadn't been done in a very, very long time. And so there was some discussion around who knows how to do it and whether it's still alive. People who we had asked around had said no, no one does that anymore.

掌握技艺的老一辈已经离世。所以大家都在猜测是否还有人知道这方法是否可行。第一天我们就见识到了令人惊叹的一幕——布须曼人称其为‘伟大的舞蹈’。

The older generation who knew how to do it was lost. So there was conjecture around whether anyone even knew if this was still possible. So we got on the first day, and what was amazing about it is to the Bushman people, it's called the great dance.

这就是纪录片的名字，对吧？是的，《伟大的舞蹈》。对，克雷格·福斯特——给那些可能在想‘我听过这个名字吗’的人介绍一下。

That's the name of the doc, isn't it? Yeah. The great dance. Yeah. Craig Foster, just for people who are like, do I know that name?

《我的章鱼老师》是他最著名的作品。

My Octopus Teacher was his most famous work.

这是一场伟大的舞蹈，因为它包含着巨大的信仰行为，属于布须曼人神话与灵性的一部分——你需要与动物进行深层互动，将它的能量传递给你。最终发生的正是如此：你与动物共舞，追踪它、追逐它，与它的灵魂同在，与灵性本身同在。当你逐渐接近时，动物的灵性会将能量赋予你。而来自伟大灵性与动物灵魂的最终馈赠，就是实际的猎杀。

It's a great dance because there's a tremendous act of faith in it, and it's part of the mythology and the spirituality of the Bushman people because it involves being engaged with the animal at a very deep level and transferring the animal's energy to you. That is ultimately what happens. So you are moving with the animal, you're tracking it, you're running it, and you are with the spirit of that animal, and you are with spirit itself. And then spirit is, as you are closing in on the animal, it's giving its energy to you. And the final act of giving from great spirit and from the spirit of that animal is the actual killing.

过程中有个有趣的迷信象征：参与者绝不会跳过木头。因为跳跃会消耗能量，把能量推回给动物，而实际上你需要吸收动物的能量。于是猎人们会进入这种奇特的节奏。总之我们出发后，在这片广阔区域寻找足迹，却始终一无所获。

And one thing that'll happen is as guys are involved in it, it's a very funny superstition but it's symbolic, they won't jump over a log. Because if you jump over a log, you are expending energy and you're pushing energy back at the animal, whereas actually you want to be drawing the animal's energy to you. So there's this very interesting rhythm that guys get into. So anyway, we go out and we're looking for tracks in this huge area. There's no tracks, there's no tracks.

整个氛围像是被调低了能量值。有人穿着巴萨足球队T恤，有人全套传统装扮，呈现出真实的混搭状态，并非理想化的刻板场景。

And the energy of everything is kind of like dialed down. You know there's one guy wearing a Barcelona FC t shirt. There's one guy in full traditional gear. It's like it's a full mix. It's not out of some idealized sense of how this is done.

就像现实中的实战时刻。然后我们突然发现了一群新鲜的大羚羊足迹。

It's like, you know, game time real life situation. And then we come on to a herd of Kudu's fresh tracks.

大羚羊是什么？能描述一下吗？

What is a kudu? Can you paint a picture?

大羚羊是一种体型高大、姿态威严的羚羊，长着螺旋状的大角。它们虽生活在沙漠地带，但适应力并不强。有些动物天生就适应沙漠环境，比如直角羚，它们甚至能通过鼻腔冷却吸入的空气，这类动物就不适合用这种方式狩猎。

A kudu is a it's a very tall regal antelope, and it has kind of large spiraling horns. And kudus, they're a desert adapted antelope. A kudu is not that well adapted for the desert. So there are certain animals that you wouldn't try and do this with because they're just too adapted to the desert. For example, a kemspark, literally the way that it breathes, it cools air through its nose.

大羚羊耐热性差，这群追踪高手发现羚羊群踪迹时，整个氛围瞬间转变。原本沉闷的气氛像被按下了开关，猎手们突然进入典型的狩猎状态。我之所以对能量考古学产生浓厚兴趣，正是因为现代生活让我们几乎接触不到这种潜藏的本能力量。

Kudus are not adapted, so they're susceptible to the heat. When this group that we were with of incredible trackers got onto the track of this herd of kudu, the whole energy shifted. And it went from quite lackluster to like someone had slipped a switch. And suddenly these guys started to switch on and they went into archetypal hunting energy. And when I say to you that I have become very interested in energetic archaeology, I feel like there is so much energy latent underneath anything that modern life allows us to get close to.

当你目睹他们切换至狩猎模式时，能感受到这种深植于每个人体内、却从未被调用的原始能量。领头者突然转为小跑姿态，随后其他人也开始奔跑，整个队伍就这样动了起来。

And when you see these guys switch into hunting energy, you feel this energy that is in every single one of us, but we never need. We don't access it because we don't need it. And suddenly the first guy shifts into a dog trot. He starts kind of trotting on the track. And then the second guy starts to run, and these guys start to move.

此时需要同时处理多项复杂任务：既要追踪羚羊群（它们会迅速分散），又要锁定那只离群的虚弱个体。猎手们必须边导航边奔跑，全神贯注。

And now you have to do a lot of complex things. One, you have to track, you have to stay on your kudu because the herd quickly breaks and a single kudu breaks away. That's the weakest one. So the guys are onto that one. Then you have to navigate, you have to run.

这就像一道生存方程式：既要明确方向感，又要在某个临界点完全交付给信念。你必须义无反顾地冲进沙漠，背离水源，面对未知——不知猎物状态、不晓高温程度、不辨地形变化，唯有跟随。这堪称真正的信仰之举。

There's such an equation, you have to have a sense of where you're going. And all of this together, at a certain point, it becomes this incredible act of faith because you have to fully commit. I am running into that desert, I'm running away from water, I'm going in that direction, and I don't really know what the outcome is going to be. I don't know the condition of this animal, I don't know the heat, I don't know the terrain, I've got to just go and follow. So it becomes a real act of faith.

正如我所说，在沙漠中背离水源奔跑是重大考验，你根本不知道要跑多远。

And as I say, like you're running away from water in the desert, and that can be a big factor. You don't know how far you're going.

而且天气酷热难当。

And it's hot.

在我们行动的那天，虽然我不知道华氏度是什么概念，但出发时气温是47度。在这群猎人队伍的最前方，蒂姆，你会感受到一种在猎人群中逐渐形成的能量。我可以告诉你，如果你中途退出，就像Peloton健身车一样，一旦掉队就再也追不上这群人了。但如果你身处其中，几乎可以乘着集体的能量前行。

And on the day we did it, I don't know what Fahrenheit is, but it was 47 degrees when we started. And so at the front of that group, Tim, there's an energy that develops amongst that group of hunters. And I can tell you that if you drop out of it, it's kind of like a Peloton. If you fall out of it, you will never catch that group again. But if you find yourself in it, it's almost like you can ride the energy of the group.

该怎么形容呢？这有点像某种仪式。一旦参与其中，你根本不知道接下来会发生什么。那次我发现自己恰好处于队伍的中心位置。这些家伙追踪速度极快，他们一直在奔跑。

How would I describe it? It's kind of like a ceremony. You just you don't know what's gonna happen once you're in it. And so I managed to find myself on this occasion in the center of the group. And these guys were tracking so fast and they're running.

作为团队，当猎物转向一侧时，左侧的人会接替追踪；当它转向另一侧时，其他人又会跟上。他们协同作战，但奔跑过程中不断有人掉队——因为高温难耐，强度实在太大。同时人们会进入不同的心理状态。布须曼人的宗教修行之一就是进入恍惚状态，你能感觉到自己正朝着那个状态靠近。

And as a group, if the animal cuts one way, someone on the left will pick up the track and as it cuts to the other way someone else will cut onto it. So they're working as a team, but as you run you're also dropping people because the heat is building too much and it's just so intense. And then also people are going into different psychological states. So one of the Bushman religious practices is to go into trance. And you can feel yourself wanting to go there.

第一个小时里，我完全处于神经质状态。满脑子都在想：太热了，我会中暑死掉的。有个声音不断重复：我们走得太远了，会找不到回去的路，我会和队伍彻底失散。

For the first hour of it, I was in a totally neurotic state. I was in my head and I was thinking to myself like, it's too hot, you know, I'm going to die of heat stroke. There was this voice running, we're going too far. We're not gonna get find our way back. I'm gonna get separated from these guys too far out.

没有水源。完全被这种神经质的想法淹没。但不知何时起，我开始感受到自己进入了另一种能量状态。我意识到唯一的办法就是放下这些念头，让身体自行推进直到极限。这很奇妙——优秀运动员常描述这种状态（虽然我不是运动员），就像在追寻某种境界，有些运动员知道如何抵达。

There's no water. It was just this just total neuroses. And then somewhere in there, I started to feel myself going into a different energy. And I felt that the only way to do this was to let go of these thoughts and let my body just go until it couldn't go anymore. It was weird because it's not often that you I mean, great athletes talk about this, which I am not but there's kind of like you're reaching for a place and some athletes know how to get to that place.

我感觉到自己穿过了精神焦虑的层面，完全放手让身体本能主导。从那个状态中，我汲取到一种仿佛来自大地、来自团队、甚至来自猎物的能量。我们又继续追踪了两个半小时。全身通红发烫，猎人们仍在追踪。有段时间我发现自己处在追踪最前沿，能感觉到前方猎物的移动，你必须保持行进。

And I felt myself go through the layer of mind neuroses and let go into like I'm just going let my body do what it knows to do. From that place I tapped into a level of energy that felt like it was coming out of the earth, that felt like it was coming from the group, that felt like it was coming from the animal. And we went for about another two and a half hours from there. And you're just like you're glowing red, the guys are tracking. At one stage I found myself on the front of the track and you can feel the animal moving up ahead of you, and you have to keep moving.

必须持续前进。然后我们会短暂瞥见那只捻角羚，接着它又消失四十分钟。我们循着踪迹追赶，再次瞥见后它又消失四十分钟。随着距离拉近，猎人们开始感受到能量正在转移。

You have to keep it moving. And then you'll get a glimpse of the we've got a glimpse of the kudu, and then it disappeared for another forty minutes. We're just on the tracks. Then we got another glimpse and it disappeared for another forty minutes. As it gets closer, the guys start to feel that the energy is transferring.

他们开始占据上风。当这些年轻人感觉到自己占了优势，就会跑得更卖力、更快。此时我已与队友失散，我的朋友詹姆斯和亚历克斯都不见了。然后突然间亚历克斯出现在我前方，这很符合他的作风。后来我才明白，原来那只羚羊跑出了一个折返路线。

They are starting to get the upper hand. And as they feel themselves getting the upper hand, the younger guys start to run harder and faster. And at this stage, I had lost my teammates, my friend James and Alex, I had lost them. And then suddenly Alex was in front of me, which is a classic Alex move. And what had happened is, what I didn't realize is the kudu had run-in a dogleg.

所以当他原本在我身后时，突然就冲到了前面，而羚羊也直接出现在他正前方。就在那一刻，整个能量场再次转换，猎人们仿佛开启了新的档位。目睹这一切令人惊叹，最终那头动物精疲力竭，直接停下脚步向猎人屈服。当动物不再奔跑、丛林猎人的精神显现时，那种深刻感受难以言表——你无法置身其中却不产生深深的敬畏与接纳。此时你也无比接近食物来源与村落生存的真相。

And so when he had been behind me, suddenly he was in front of me and suddenly the kudu was directly in front of him. And as that happened, the entire energy shifted again and the guys just found another gear. And it's quite amazing to witness it, and then eventually the animal is so tired that it literally just stops and it gives itself to the hunter. And those moments where the animal will run no more and the bushman's spirit, there is something so profound about it because you can't be there and not be in a profound state of respect and receiving. And you are also so close to the truth of where your food and the survival of the village comes from.

这绝非在Whole Foods超市的肉品区闲逛。你正亲身参与夺取生命、汲取其他生物能量的原始仪式。动物倒下后，他们会撒上沙子，象征对它的祝福与感恩。当你最终从那种能量场中抽离时——可能是一小时，也可能是十小时——你的心理状态已彻底改变，你刚经历了一场完全原始且充满仪式感的能量交互，除此之外无法用其他语言描述。

You're not strolling down the meat section at Whole Foods. You are right on the coalface of what it means to take life and to take the energy of another creature. And after the animal goes down, they put sand on it, which is symbolic of a blessing onto the animal and thanking the animal for what it has given them. When you eventually emerge out of that energy, it could have been one hour, it could have been ten hours, you're in such a different psychological space and you have been involved in an energetic that is totally primal and that is ceremonial. There's no other way to describe it.

你正置身于大地能量流之中。

You are in a current of energy from the earth.

那只特定的羚羊，你估计有多重？有概念吗？

That particular Kudu, how much would you guess it weighed? Any idea?

大概在一百八十公斤左右。

So probably around the hundred and eighty kg mark.

哦，那可是个大块头。好的。

Oh, that's a big boy. Yeah. Okay.

是的，我需要确认一下。

Yeah. I I would need to check that.

不过确实，大概四百磅左右。

But Yeah. Four hundred ish pounds. Yeah.

没错，当那只羚羊被分解时，可能不到400磅。分解后，那动物的每一部分都被取走吃掉。从那人开始处理尸体算起，整个过程肯定不超过十五分钟。

Yeah. When that kudu is cut up, a little bit less than 400 maybe. When it's cut up, every single piece of that animal is taken and and eaten. From the time the guy started working on the carcass, it must have been fifteen minutes to

哇，真快啊。

Wow. That's fast.

那动物的每一部分都被利用了。

Every single piece of that animal.

那他们是怎么搬运的？就扛在肩上吗？我是说，你们怎么把猎物运回营地的？

And then how are they are they just carrying it on shoulders? I mean, how are you guys actually getting that back to camp?

对，然后把后腿肉用各种方式扛着，大家就这样徒步运出来。当然，从那里到营地还有很长一段路要走。

Yeah. And then you put the haunches on your, like, all different array of carries and everyone and walks it out. And then you've got still obviously got a long way to go from there.

你们回到大本营后会怎样？

What happens when you guys get back to home base?

最令人惊叹的是猎人们强烈的自豪感。他们很久没这么做了，想证明自己仍掌握这项技能。这几乎像是唤醒了他们世代传承的某种记忆。现场充满美妙的能量，回到营地后食物立刻就被分食一空。

Well, what was amazing about it is there was a strong sense of pride amongst the hunters. They hadn't done it in a long time, and they wanted to show that they still knew how to do it. And it was almost like that they had remembered an aspect of something that they had done for many, many generations. There was a beautiful energy to it, and then back at camp there was it's just immediately that food starts to get eaten.

是啊，我能想象。

Yeah, I bet.

我的感悟是：若观察现在的布须曼文化，表面看似松散，但实际技能依然鲜活，就像暗流涌动。他们掌握着与沙漠和谐共处的惊人生态智慧。就算AI毁灭人类，我相信布须曼人能从容回归沙漠宝库，在那里如鱼得水。

What I came away with is that if you were to look at Bushman culture now, on the surface it appears very diffuse, but the actual skills are very much alive and they're simmering just under the surface. This incredible ecological knowledge of how to live in harmony with the desert. And if AI does wipe us all out, I'm pretty sure that Bushman people will just walk back into the storehouse of the desert and be really, really comfortable there.

没错。想目睹现代文明礼仪迅速崩塌？去旧金山这类地方就行。记得有次停电两天半，起初人们彬彬有礼地街头寒暄，后来发现食物要解冻变质了，焦虑与敌意便迅速蔓延——因为人们不知所措。

Yeah. If you wanna see modern polite behavior disintegrate very quickly. Just go to a place like San Francisco. Remember the power went out for two days, two and a half days, and people were very, very civil in the beginning and walking around the street, greeting one another, and then people realized their food is gonna thaw, their food is gonna spoil. And agitation and aggression start to percolate very quickly because people don't know what to do.

对吧？一旦便利生活的底层架构消失，他们就完全懵了。

Right? They have no idea what to do if the basic architecture of convenience is removed.

我常思考这个问题。人们比自己想象的更接近原始野性。当生存本能觉醒时会出现分叉：有些人走向弱肉强食，另一些人则会出于保护、食物、安全等合理原因选择协作。观察这种分化会很有趣，你可以深入研究生存主义课题。

I've thought about it a lot, and I think that all the things you imagine to happen, people are so much closer to primal wildness than they ever realize. And survival starts to kick in, and then I think there'll be a y junction. Some people will go into survival of the fittest, and then others will move into states of collaboration for, like, good reason, protection, food, safety. So they'll be like it'll be interesting to see how it breaks down. You can get into some good prepper stuff.

专业建议，确保你有水。水是第一位的。你会比需要罐装扁豆更早需要水。顺便说一句，如果你有任何干燥的罐装食品，通常也需要水来处理很多这类食物。确保你有水和你的便携炉具或类似的东西。

Just pro tip, make sure you have water. Water is number one. Gonna need water a lot sooner than you're gonna need canned lentils. And by the way, if you have any dried canned food, you're gonna need some water typically for a lot of that. Make sure you have your water and your jet boils or something along those lines.

同样令人惊讶的是，布须曼人能在如此少的水资源下生存。

It's also amazing to see how little water the Bushman people can operate on.

哦，那一定很不可思议。他们的进化轨迹一定为此做好了充分准备。我可能在24小时内就会死掉。

Oh, it must be absurd. Their evolutionary track must have prepared them so well for that. I would be dead within twenty four hours.

在同一次旅行的一个早晨，我们发现了猎豹的足迹，我们非常想向这些人展示一些我们的追踪技巧，这就像是追踪者之间的情谊。我们和这位70岁的老人在一起，跟着一个单独的猎豹足迹，前面变得有点竞争性。如果有人跟丢了，下一个人就会跟上，如果你走开了，别人就会跟上。前两个小时我们还挺有效的，然后随着天气越来越热，这些人开始给我们上了一课。我们的水喝完了。

We had one morning on the same trip where we found tracks of a cheetah, and we were quite keen to show the guys, like, some of our tracking skills, and it was like it was like camaraderie amongst trackers. And we were with this 70 year old man, and we're following the single cheater, and it kind of turned into mildly competitive at the front. So if someone lost the track, the next person would be on it, and then if you stepped off it, someone else would be on it. And for the first two hours, we were quite effective, and then these guys just started to put a clinic on us as it got hotter and hotter. We ran out of water.

我们就像在这些荆棘丛下爬行，艰难前行，而他们就像在沙漠中轻松穿行。到了11点，这位70岁的老人把我们走得筋疲力尽，我们的水瓶已经空了，我们觉得需要回家因为我们需要水。他一早上都没喝一口水，而我们只能认输。

We were like climbing under these thorn bushes, lumbering along and they were just like cruising through the desert. And by 11:00, this 70 year old guy was walking us off our feet, and we had drained our water bottles and we were like, we need to get back home because we need to get water. He hadn't had a sip all morning and we were like, okay.

哇。是的。你赢了。没得比。

Wow. Yeah. You win. No contest.

没得比。

No contest.

好的。我想讨论两个不同的切入点。你可以告诉我哪个更有意义，或者我们想讨论其他什么话题，你可以选择感兴趣的方向。作为一个坚定的人物，追寻野性之人。你想探讨其中任何一个吗？

Alright. So I wanna hop to two different potential leaping off points. You can tell me if one of these makes sense or if there's something else we wanna hop to, and you can follow whichever track is appealing. Being a resolved figure, seeking the wild man. You wanna pursue either of these?

你觉得呢？或者我们可以选择菜单外的选项C。

What do you think? Or we could take option c off menu.

不。我认为野性之人是个强有力的主题，归根结底在于——我开始将野性之人视为觉知，像是自我觉知，觉知你内在所有不同层次的能量，然后是触及。当这两者开始结合时，你就会看到一种真实的存在感。那种你在自然界中看到的存在感。我确实对在生活中召唤更多这种状态产生了浓厚兴趣。

No. I mean, I think the wild man is a powerful theme, and it comes down to this idea that I've come to think of the wild man as awareness, like self awareness, awareness of all the different layers of energy that are inside you, and then also access. And so when those two things start to come together, you start to see a real type of presence. The type of presence that you see in the natural world. And I'm really become interested in conjuring more of that in my own life.

如何释放自己不同层次的能量？在我的定义中，存在感就是能够触及当下。特别是在参与这些男性团体工作时，召唤野性之人的理念在于——它的野性体现在与生命力的共鸣，但同样也体现在对当下的触及。我的意思是，让你的野性之人完全可用，意味着当需要你挺身而出保护某些事物、展现魄力与进取时，你能调动这种状态。但如果当下需要极大的柔软或温柔，你同样能触及那种状态。

How do you liberate different layers of energy in yourself? Like in my definition of presence would be access to the moment. And particularly now working in a lot of these men's groups, the idea of conjuring the wild man is it's wildness in the sense that it is in tune with life force, but it is also wildness in that it is access to the moment. And what I mean by that is to have your wild man fully available means that if you are required to front up in some ways and protect something and be able to be assertive and aggressive, you have access to that. But if the moment is calling for a tremendous amount of softness or tenderness, you also have access to that.

因此，探索如何尽可能多地触及不同时刻，已成为我现阶段的核心课题。作为父亲，我经常思考如何通过完整的男性经验光谱，对我的儿子、妻子和家人保持可用。我在哪些方面遇到阻碍？什么时候会感到自己虽然很想在场，却不知如何在此刻展现？这就是这项探索的主要意义。

So trying to figure out how to develop access to as many moments as possible has become kind of a central piece of exploration for me at the moment. And to become resolved within that is now as a father, I think a lot about figuring out how to be available through a full spectrum of masculine experience to my son, to my wife, to my family. Where do I run into blockages in myself? Where do I start to feel like I really want to be here, but I don't know how to show up in this moment? That's what that exploration has become primarily about.

让我问你一个相关问题。如果我们考虑对当下的触及，以及对这些不同情感敏感度的全方位触及——我知道这种表述有点笨拙。你个人如何看待与家人共处的问题？我是这个意思：

Let me ask you a question related to that. So if we think about access to the moment and sort of full spectrum access to these different emotional sensitivities, let's just say. I know that's that's a bit of a clumsy way to word it, but let's just say that. How do you personally think about colocating you and your family? And here's what I mean by that.

我尝试解决这个问题的方式是——在纽约这样的城市里（我此刻正坐着），昨天还在人群中遭遇了一个极具攻击性、可能精神不稳定的路人。明白吗？这里充斥着某种集体性的情感封闭（如果这个词成立），人们筑起了高墙，我也穿上了某种防护盔甲，这似乎阻止我触及所有这些敏感度，因为在这样的环境里保持过度通透简直像是自杀。所以无论我是否想保持开放，在纽约大多数地方，那种程度的开放性对我未必是好事。毕竟我确实在城市里度过了大量时间。

The way that I have tried to solve for this, what I've realized is that in a place like New York City where I'm sitting and it's like got accosted by this very aggressive, probably mentally unstable person yesterday in huge crowds of people. Right? A lot of feeling of, like, collective cauterization, if that's a word, but just people have dropped down walls, and I put on sort of a protective armor that seemingly disallows me to access all of these different sensitivities because it just seems like suicide to be too porous in an environment like this. So whether I wanted to be open or not, I don't think it would be good for me necessarily in New York City in most places to have that level of kind of openness. So I do spend a lot of time in cities.

我觉得城市令人兴奋，但每年我都会特意留出几周时间完全脱离网络。至少希望能防止这些敏感度衰退得太严重。就像在这些预留的时间段里锻炼肌肉一样。当然也有人生活在更宁静的环境中，更适合这种探索、表达和体验，对吧？

I find cities exciting, but I block out, you know, a few weeks of the year where I'm just completely off the grid. And hopefully, at the very least, keeping these sensitivities from atrophying too horribly. Like, I'm working the muscle in these blocks of time that I put out. There are other people, of course, who just live in a more peaceful perhaps environment that allows for this type of exploration and expression and experience. Right?

不一定非要去南非腹地，也不一定要在蒙大拿的深山里。可能就在一个宁静的郊区，或者比纽约更悠闲的城市也行。你自己是怎么看待这个问题的？

And it doesn't need to be the middle of South Africa. It doesn't need to be in the middle of the mountains of Montana. It could just be in a peaceful suburb. Doesn't need to be or in a, like, a chiller city than New York City, potentially. How do you think about this for yourself?

我可能通过辨别力来思考这个问题。在你描述的环境中保持适度武装是明智的。但我现在在很多群体中看到，特别是在男性团体里，核心问题是他们渴望更开放，却不知道如何做到，缺乏接触这种状态的途径和理解力。所以你不想在纽约市中心展现极端脆弱，但你需要知道在适当情境下可以深入开放自己。

I think about it probably through discernment. Like, I think that it's wise to be somewhat armored in the environments you're describing. But what I see in groups now a lot, this has become the core thing, is I see, particularly in men's groups, a desire to be more available, but actually not knowing how to, not having the access and the literacy to know what that would even look like. And so you don't want to go into extreme tenderness in the middle of New York City. You probably want to be exactly where you are, but you want to know that you can open to deeper levels in the right context.

你需要明白是什么阻碍了你——通常是某种条件反射，是你学会的应对方式，当事情变得难以承受时你学会的僵化或封闭。然后你要想办法在那一刻为自己创造更多选择。对我来说，创伤就是僵化，任何被迫陷入创伤情境时，其特征都是选择减少。所以要培养更多临在感，首先你必须意识到自己僵住了，并真正感受到：此刻我想更投入但不知如何是好。

And you want to know what has kept you out of that, which would usually be some kind of conditioned response, something that you learned to do, a way you learned to freeze or shut down when things became overwhelming. And then you want to figure out how to develop more options for yourself in that moment. So trauma to me is freezing, right? Anytime you've been forced into some kind of traumatic situation, it's characterized by a reduction of options. And so in order to cultivate more presence, one is you have to be present to the fact that you're frozen and actually be able to feel like, okay, in this moment I want to be more connected but I don't know how.

首先要觉察到这点，其次开始构想其他选择可能是什么样。具体来说就是在那刻能采取哪些行动来摆脱僵化状态。我认为男性需要其他男性——野性男人的探索本质上是集体性的，当男性与男性共处，尤其在荒野中，这种状态会自然浮现。不需要刻意为之，也不必变成鼓圈活动。当把一群男人带到荒野，他们的心灵开始与那片野性之地共鸣，他们会说：我说不清原因，这是无形的能量，但这片荒野与我有关。

So first to be present to that, and then second, to start to figure out what other choices would look like. And literally other things you could do in that moment to move out of the frozen state. And that's where I think the men need other men than the wild man is somewhat a collective exploration, men being with men, particularly in wild places, that it just naturally starts to emerge. You don't have to work at it too hard and it doesn't have to turn into a drum circle if you take a bunch of guys out into a wild place. Their psyche starts to relate to that wild place and they start saying, I can't tell you why, it's intangible, it's energetic, but something about this has something to do with me.

在这瀑布、山峦、狮子面前，在这荒野之旅中，我能以某种方式感受到自我存在。然后对话开始展开，你们能够探讨：我们在哪些地方遇到阻碍？如果我们想释放野性，就需要活在当下——就像纯真的动物天生知道在任何情境下该怎么做。

I can feel myself in a way here in the presence of that waterfall and that mountain and that lion and the process of being out here. I can feel myself. And then the conversation starts to open and you're able to start to say like, okay, where are the places where we run into blockage? And if we want to be wild we need access to the moment. Just like in the way that an innocent animal has access to it knows what to do in any given situation.

比如豹子不会过度思考。它们想攻击时就攻击，需要照顾幼崽时就照顾，要划分领地时就行动。一切都自然流露。

Like leopards are not in their heads. If they wanna be aggressive, they're aggressive. If they're caring for their young, they're caring for their young. If they need to set a territory, they do it. It flows out of them.

创造能让这种情况自然发生的空间，这让我感到非常有趣。

Creating spaces in which that can naturally start to occur has become really interesting to me.

你怎么看待——顺便说个题外话，我也不知道为什么会突然想到这个——但如果你觉得‘天啊我这辈子都见不到豹子’，其实你去电影院闻到爆米花烧焦的味道时，就能闻到类似豹子尿液的气味。所以如果你想深吸一口的话...

How do you think about well, side note for people, I don't know why this popped into my head, but if you're like, man, I'm never gonna see a leopard. I was like, you can get a little whiff of leopard if you go to the movie theater and the popcorn is burnt. It smells like leopard urine. So that's just a if you wanna take a big, big inhale.

豹子标记领地时会喷洒尿液，那气味几乎和爆米花一模一样。

When leopards mark their territory, they spray and it has it it has the almost exact scent of popcorn.

是啊，真的很神奇。我记得我当时觉得‘不可能吧’，后来有次我们开车时...

Yeah. It's it's really wild. I remember I was like I was like, nah. That's not possible. And then we were driving at one point.

我觉得可能是苏尔桑特（音），当时和我们一起的追踪者突然举手示意停车。我当场就震惊了——就是这个味道！简直像坐在电影院里一样，太疯狂了。

And I think it might maybe it was Soursant, but one of the trackers that we were with held up a hand to stop the car. And I was like, holy shit. There it is. I feel like I'm sitting in the movie theater. That's crazy.

总之这个话题先放一边。你觉得个人成长课程或男性团体存在哪些问题？我之所以这么问——并非要强调某种立场——只是想到高度个人主义社会既有很多副作用，也有很多好处。比如美国的新教工作伦理、粗犷个人主义，以及对自给自足者的推崇，确实能带来很高的生产力。

And in any case, I'll I'll leave that there. But what do you think the trappings of some personal development or men's groups are? And the reason I ask, and this is not a strong position I'm taking, but it's just a thought, is that there are many side effects to a and many benefits to a highly individualistic society. Right? So if you in the case of The US, you take this protestant work ethic, rugged individualism, this lionizing of the self sufficient independent person, there's a lot of production that can come from that.

对吧？但从集体角度看，这种模式往往会造成某种程度的附带伤害。这里说的‘集体’并不玄乎，可以小到你的家庭范围。

Right? Like, productivity. There is frequently some degree of collateral damage from a collective perspective. And that's not too woo woo. Like, collective could just mean, like, in your family.

对吧？就像你把自己训练成一个冷酷无情的商业杀手，戴着遮眼罩，这就是你学会使用的第六档。如果你缺乏一定灵活性，却又非常擅长这种模式——这在很多领域的男性中很常见，女性可能也是，但我觉得男性尤其如此——这种情感隔离能力。当你能够提高痛苦阈值，将某些事情隔离，把某些东西锁起来时，可以让你成为非常非常高效的执行者。但在人际关系方面，这种能力可能会成为障碍。

Right? Like, if you trained yourself to be sort of a cold blooded business killer with blinders on, and that's the gear you learn to use, the sixth gear. If you don't have some degree of flexibility and you're very good, which is very common, this applies to, I think, men in a lot of fields, women probably too, but I think especially men, compartmentalization. So when you're able to, like, increase your pain threshold, compartmentalize certain things, lock certain things away, can make you very, very, very effective as a performer. But in an interpersonal respect, it can be compromised.

好的。我之所以提到这些，是因为我在思考那些想要接触更多情感状态和敏感度的男性。我会想：为什么他们想要这样？可能是因为他们想更好地倾听和与伴侣互动。

Okay. The reason I'm bringing all this up is that I think about, say let's just take, for example, like, men who want more access to different states and sensitivities. And I'm like, okay. Well, why do they want that? Well, they might want it because they want to be able to better listen and interact with their partner.

对吧？为了讨论方便，我们假设伴侣是女性。我觉得：好吧，我同意这个观点。对吧？

Right? And just for the sake of argument, let's say that's a that's a female partner. And I'm like, okay. Well, I agree with that. Right?

这是我过去二十年的功课之一——提升冲突降级的能力，这方面我从未有过好榜样。我已经取得很大进步，但还有更多工作要做。同时我觉得，男性这种感知到的必要性，也反映了社会现状：在一段关系中，双方都期望对方成为自己的全部。所以我们其实需要更多社群解决方案——如果你指望你的男人能像闺蜜一样聊天，那恐怕是找错对象了。

This has been one of my homework assignments for the last two decades. It's getting better at conflict de escalation, which I never had a good model for. And I've made a lot of progress and quite more work to be done. There's also I I feel like maybe that this perceived necessity on the part of men is a reflection of also a society in which you have a couple within which each person expects the other to be kind of everything for them. So it's actually the the we need more community solutions where it's like, okay, look, if you expect your man to be just like one of your girlfriends you're gonna have a chat with, like, you got the wrong animal probably.

对吧？如果男方说'你为什么不能像个哥们儿一样？我们就当兄弟处'，那可能也是找错了对象。这也是为什么我会专门为这些旅行预留时间——几乎都是纯男性之旅。

Right? And then if the the dude is like, why can't you just be a dude? Let's be dudes. It's like, well, maybe you just have the you got the wrong animal, which is part of the reason why I block out for these weeks when I do these trips. They're almost always all men trips.

对吧？因为在现代社会，这类体验基本上已经消失或不被允许，除了少数体育场景。同理，如果一对伴侣处于孤立状态（暂且不谈育儿方面的挑战），虽然我说得有些散漫——毕竟之前没系统表达过——你觉得男性群体的个人发展，应该多大程度聚焦于个体能力提升，而不是寻求结构性解决方案？比如通过日程安排来确保他们能接触伴侣之外的人际关系？这样说明白吗？

Right? Because that's that type of experience in modern day, I think, is largely absent or disallowed outside of maybe a few sports context. And similarly, if a couple is in isolation, right, putting aside the child rearing aspect of this and the challenges that entails, I suppose this is very meandering, but I haven't verbalized this before. To what extent do you feel like personal development for let's just take the men's group as an example, should focus on the individual and that kind of access versus trying to figure out some, like, structural solutions and scheduling and blocking things out so that they have access to more people outside of their partner. Does that make sense?

是的，我觉得有道理。这是个分阶段的过程。第一步应该是伴侣双方在关系之外培养更多独立的情感认知能力。所以我认为首先要从自身做起。

Yeah. I think it does. I think there's steps to it. I think the first step is both partners developing more literacy away from the partnership. So I think it's first work in the eye.

这其中存在着必然性和必要性。当你开始在个人层面掌握更多技能后，就会想要将其带入集体层面，开始实践。事实上我认为人际关系的一个问题在于，我们的模型仍然建立在浪漫主义传统之上——仿佛你会坠入爱河然后获得美好事物。而如今对我而言，人际关系更像是一个主动的实践场域。

There's an inevitability and a necessity to that. Then once you start to get more skills in the eye, you want to bring that to the we and you want to start to practice. And I actually think that one of the issues with relationship is that our model for it is still built on the romantic traditions. And it's like you're gonna fall in love and then here's this beautiful thing. Whereas relationship to me now is way more an active practice space.

但你必须同时进行自我修炼和共同修炼。这两者最终需要协同发展。问题在于，你需要有人揭示你的盲点，需要更有经验的人引导你做出新选择、进入新存在方式。你需要外部力量帮你看见自己的盲区。往往需要某些事物打破你固有的模式或认知盲区，让你以新视角看待问题。

But you have to be working yourself and together. So those two things have to go together at some stage. The problem is is that you need your blind spots revealed and you need people who have more access to help guide you into new choices and new ways of being. You need something from the outside to help you see what your blind spot was. Very often you need something to offend your own pattern or your own blindness and help you see it in a different way.

然后将这些觉醒带入群体。我希望由此逐渐显现的是：这段关系能为他人带来什么。理想情况下，它应该成为服务场所——不仅服务于直系家庭，更服务于更广阔的社区，让你意识到我们拥有独特的奉献价值。当足够多人开始承担这种责任时，就能看到系统性的变革模式。但男性本质需要其他男性来释放自身，女性本质同样需要其他女性来释放自身。

And then you bring those awarenesses to the group. And then I think hopefully what starts to emerge out of that is there's what the relationship wants to be for others. And ideally it should turn into a place of service not just for your direct family but for the larger community where you start to know we have something unique to give to the community. And I think when enough people start to take that up, that's where you could see like systemic models for change. But I think masculine essence needs other men to liberate itself more, and same with feminine essence needs other women to liberate itself more.

而让这两种本质以更觉醒的方式结合，我认为会成为这场游戏乐趣的一部分。

And then to bring those two together with more awareness becomes part of the funness of the game, I think.

听着，你知道我是个沉迷个人成长的人，感觉就像参加了个人成长瘾者的匿名交流会。我想简短分享个故事——以最近的蒙大拿之旅为例（我总用这个例子是因为它最新鲜），但这类男性集体旅行我每年至少有三四次。

Look. You know, I'm a junkie for personal development stuff, so I'm kinda like I feel like I'm in an AA meeting for, like, personal development addicts. But what I would say I'll tell just a brief story. So on this Montana trip, keeping in mind, I keep using that example because it's most recent, but this is, I'd say, at least three or four times a year. There's a trip of some type with guys.

这次是小团体，四五个人。有天晚上我们围坐在篝火旁不停地畅谈。突然有个伙伴说：'我刚明白火堆对男人的重要性'，我们追问原因，他回答：'因为这样就不用眼神交流'。

And in this case, small group, it's like four or five guys. And at one point, we're sitting around a fire at night just rapping and talking and talking and talking. And then one of the guys said, he's like, I just figured out why fire is so important for guys. And we're like, why is that? And he goes, because we don't have to make eye contact.

我们只需盯着火焰，就能进行深度对话。而在大多数情况下，如果两个男人长时间对视，就会产生某种攻击性——这是种根深蒂固的攻防动态。

We just look at the fire, we can have all these really deep conversations. Whereas in most circumstances, like, if you're staring deeply into another guy's eyes, it's kind of an aggressive it's just this ingrained kind of aggressive defensive dynamic.

如果你盯着别人的眼睛看，要么会亲热起来，要么会互相厮杀。

If you stare in someone's eyes, you're gonna make out or or kill each other.

是啊，没错。

Yeah. Right.

你知道那个老笑话吗？你对哥们说：嘿，要不要去湖边坐坐聊上六个小时？回答肯定是不要。但如果说去钓鱼呢？好啊，走吧。

You know that old joke you say to your buddy, hey, do you wanna go and sit by the lake and talk for six hours? It's like, no. It's like, do wanna go fishing? Yeah. Let's do that.

没错，正是如此。所以回到你之前说的，别太刻意为之，对吧？

Yeah. Right. Exactly. And so if harkening back to what you said about, like, don't try too hard. Right?

随着年龄增长，当我看到那些表象、弱点或不足时——既包括直面个人工作的必要性，也包括其不足——我在想，显微镜式的刻意工作与间接工作之间的比例该是多少。这话可能很粗俗：比如我们造了个木筏去钓鱼，用手工鱼饵，期间讲着屎尿屁和下流笑话。

Like, knowing, and this is more an open question. But as I get older and as I see some of the trappings and weaknesses or insufficiencies, both the necessity of and the insufficiency of, like, direct head on personal work, Mhmm. I wonder what the ratio is between sort of deliberate, like, microscope work, so to speak, and, like, the indirect work. This is gonna sound really crass, which is, like, building a raft and going fishing, which we did with, like, handmade lures and all this stuff while telling, like, fart and dick jokes. Right?

这看起来很不严肃。没人会把它写进书里说：第一步，想出三个你最爱的下流笑话。任何自助书籍都不会这么写。但不可否认，这种方式效果显著，还能增进感情。而且随着年龄增长，我越来越觉得：好吧...

It's like it doesn't seem serious. Like, no one would put that in a book and be like, okay, step number one, like, come up with three of your favorite dick jokes. It's not gonna be in any self help book. But nonetheless, it seems to do a lot of lifting, and there's the bonding. And, you know, the older I get, the more I think that it's like, okay.

我们可以研究27种自我提升的方法，但归根结底为什么这么做？大概是为了获得某种情感状态，提升自己及身边家人的生活质量。就像我说的这些旅行，男人们的聚会时光——虽然有些胡闹，但主要是共同完成项目，共同经历某种磨难，付出大量体力。就像你说的：'走，去湖边聊六小时'。

We can look at the 27 different options for improving ourselves and ultimately, why are we doing that? Well, it's probably to achieve, like, some emotional state to improve our quality of life and the quality of life of, say, our family members around us. Okay. Well, having in the case of these trips that I'm describing, right, some guy time where you're not necessarily I mean, there is some goofing off, but there's generally shared projects and, like, shared suffering of some type and a lot of exertion. Like you said, it's like, yeah, let's sit by the lake and talk for six hours.

不用了，谢谢。不过，我们可以去钓鱼，顺便做类似的事情。好吧。

No. Thanks. Yeah. But let's go fishing and, by the way, kinda do the same thing. Okay.

太好了，就这么定了。答案其实是——关键在于关系，笨蛋。内容反而是次要的，重点是以特定方式共度时光。

Great. Let's do it. That the answer is, like, it's the relationship stupid. And the content is secondary to, like, the spending of time in a particular way.

百分百同意。而且你不需要太费力。唯一要补充的是需要一点上下文。如果团队里有几个人已经做了些功课，掌握了更多信息并能解读情况，你就不必硬来。基本上可以一边闲聊一边顺流而下。

A 100%. And you don't have to work hard. The only thing that I would say is a little bit of context to it. If you have a few guys in the group who have done the work of developing a little bit more access and can make reads, then you don't have to club it. You know, you can mostly be talking shit floating down the river.

但偶尔在适当情境下，有人可以说：嘿，我发现你忽略了这点。你可以叫我滚开，也可以接受建议，怎么都行。但我注意到你是这样表现的。

But then occasionally, with a little bit of context, someone can say, hey, here's what I see you being blind to. You can tell me to fuck off. You can take it on board. It can go any way. But here's how I notice you show up.

你知道自己会这样吗？如果贸然插话，对方只会觉得'去你的，别烦我'。但如果你们一起经历过些实事，就会打开心扉——我发现这种时候接受度惊人地高。社群的意义在于没人掌握全部答案。为个人成长而成长只是自我放纵。

Do you know that you do that? Now if you just try and weigh in on that, it's like fuck you, leave me alone. But if you've had some time together doing some real stuff, there's an opening there that I found the rate of download to be incredibly high. The community piece is that no one has all the answers. Personal development work for personal development work's sake is just fucking self indulgent.

但一旦加入你说的关系动态，就有了爱和关怀。就像我说的这些话源于关心，来自我经历的一部分。你会发现每个人都握有他人需要的拼图。集体智慧高于个人，这时重大突破就会出现——甚至非主持者也可能说：你某种表现让我难以信任。我只是反馈，接不接受随你。

But once you add in the dynamic of relationship, as you said, then there's love and then there's care. It's like, you know, what I'm saying to you is coming out of care, it's coming out of a piece of my journey, and what you find is everyone has a piece for everyone then. The community is more intelligent than the individual. And that's where the major unlocks start to have where someone who's not even in the role of facilitator or leader says, hey, there's a way in which you show up that makes me not feel like I can trust you. I'm just telling you that by way of feedback, I don't know whether you wanna take that on board or not.

要知道，当你们一起漂流过急流，往往会比随意丢弃时更愿意接纳意见。

You know, things start to happen, and if you've rafted a river together, you tend to take more than you would just jettison.

就拿你刚才举的例子来说，表达方式可以有很多种，对吧？我的意思是，你可能会说，嘿兄弟，这可能是我编的故事，但你有考虑过A、B、C这些可能性吗？

With the example that you just gave. There are lots of ways to communicate that. Right? I mean, you might just be like, hey, man. I could be making this up as a story, but, like, have you ever considered a, b, c?

因为如果你要用意识领导力的15项承诺这种语言，你他妈最好确保对方能听懂你在说什么。这套工具很棒，但前提是双方要先对语言达成共识。时间差不多了，但我想确保我们完成两件事：一是再加个故事，二是补充讨论任何遗漏的重点。

Because if you're gonna use the language of, say, the 15 commitments of conscious leadership, you better fucking make sure the other person has an idea of what the hell you're talking about. Yeah. Amazing toolkit, but you kinda have to agree on the language beforehand. So we're coming up on roughly time, but I want to make sure that we do perhaps two things. One is maybe add one more story and then cover anything that you'd like to touch on that we haven't covered.

你觉得用什么故事来收尾比较好？我有个狒狒吃午饭的故事。

What do you think is a good kind of bookmark story here? I have lunch the baboon down.

让我讲讲午饭的故事。蒂姆，有只狒狒因为总在午饭时间出现得名"午饭"，它把营地闹得天翻地覆。它甚至学会了闯进厨房。有次我在厨房，厨师用石头堵住门，门被撞得哐哐响。每次外力撞击，石头就滑动一点，门缝越来越大。最后一只毛茸茸的爪子伸进来抓住门把，"午饭"冲进厨房，径直走向台面上的蛋糕，用后腿站立着捧起蛋糕扬长而去。

Let me tell you about lunch. Okay. Tim, lunch was a baboon that picked up the nickname lunch because he started showing up at lunchtime, and he started causing absolute havoc around the camp. Lunch even worked out how to break into the kitchen. And I remember once being in the kitchen and the chefs had barricaded one of the doors with some rocks and the door was literally vibrating, gaga, gaga, And every time it was being forced from the outside, every time the rock would slide and the door would open a little bit more, and then this furry hand came in and gripped the handle and then lunch burst into the kitchen and he walked across to the counter where there was a cake and he picked up the cake and walked off on his hind legs, holding the cake in his hands.

给没见过狒狒的人描述下，我觉得这玩意儿真他妈吓人。

And just for people who don't have a picture of a baboon, I mean, I find those things pretty fucking terrifying. I mean

狒狒是种可怕的生物，像三英尺高的肌肉毛男，还长着长犬齿。动物智力研究里有几种认知模式：我知道，我知道你知道，我知道你知道我知道——你可能比我还清楚。

A baboon is a formidable he's like a three foot muscular hairy dude with long canines. Yeah. Yeah. There's this thing in animal intelligence, and you probably even know this better than me, but there are these modes of awareness. There's I know, then there's I know you know, then there's I know that you know.

最初级认知是"我注意到你"，进阶是"我注意到你注意到我"。有次我穿过营地，"午饭"正在搞破坏，比如撬客人迷你吧。它看到我就明白我知道它在使坏，然后会假装闲逛。

So it's like the first awareness is just, you know, I'm aware of you, then it's I'm aware that you're aware of me. That's like higher level. So sometimes I would walk through the camp and lunch would be like involved in some kind of mischief. He would be breaking into a guest's minibar and then he would see me and he would know that I knew that he was up to mischief. And then he would kind of pretend to just be like loitering around.

这里没什么好看的，我只是在我的自然环境中当一只狒狒。记得前几天我在整理桌上的笔记时，发现一份会议纪要，上面赫然写着：我们需要为树屋营地购置新餐具。八号路虎车需要修理，要让它的族群畏惧我们的族群。基本上就是有人决定要试着把午餐吓出营地。于是连着好几天，我都盘算着要把他赶出营地。

Nothing to see here, just being a baboon in my natural environment. I remember the other day I was going through some notes on my desk, and I found a minute from a meeting, and the literal minute was like we need to get new crockery and cutlery for tree camp. Land Rover number eight needs to be repaired, his troop needs to fear our troop. And basically it was like someone deciding that they needed to try and scare lunch out of the camp. And so for a period of days I decided I was gonna like chivvy him out of the camp.

过程相当曲折，因为每次我追他时他都会躲起来。他钻进迷你酒吧喝了酒，有天我还发现他坐在泳池里。他就是到处制造混乱。我有把BB枪，决定用来射他。结果有天发现他正坐在停车场一位客人的奥迪车上。

And it was elaborate because every time I tried to chase him he would hide. He got into the minibar, he drank some booze. I found him sitting in the pool one day. He was just like causing general chaos. I had a little BB gun that I decided that I would shoot him with, and the one day I found him, he was sitting on a guest's Audi that was parked in the car park.

当我举枪瞄准时，他直接平趴在奥迪车上，一副'你试试看'的架势。总之他没干好事。后来某天我坐在办公室，电话铃响，我姐姐接起来后突然用非常严肃的语气交谈。我说真的吗？难以置信。

And when I aimed the gun at him, he just lay flat against the Audi like I dare you. So he was up no good. Anyway, the one day I'm sitting in the office and the phone rings and my sister picks up the phone and she starts talking in that very intent way. I said, really? I can't believe that.

王室成员？当然可以。屋里所有人都竖起耳朵偷听，因为对话太紧张了。她挂掉电话后说：'博伊德，有位王子要来伦多洛兹。'这消息让人兴奋不已。

Royalty? Yes, of course we can. And everyone in the room was like eavesdropping because it sounded so intense. So she hangs up the phone and she says, Boyd, a prince is coming to Londolozi. And this is like a tremendous amount of excitement.

为了迎接王子，我们做了长达数月的准备工作。后勤事务没完没了：要架设卫星天线让王子能看体育赛事直播，聘请特级厨师，采购大量商品打造独特购物体验。

And there's like months and months of prep and set up to the arrival of the prince. There's like endless amount of logistics. A satellite dish has to be put up so that the prince can stream certain sports games. There's a special chef that has to come in. There's a whole lot of things that need to come into the boutique so that there can be unique shopping experiences.

有段时间甚至讨论要加长跑道方便专机降落，来回协商各种随行事宜，一切都紧锣密鼓进行着。王子抵达当天，我们很自豪所有后勤都安排妥当。连特制面霜都空运过来了。前三四架飞机载的都是随行人员和行李，最后王子专机即将降落时，我姐姐布朗温对我说：'小子，快跑去客房。'

At one stage there's talk of lengthening the runway so that a jet can land, but going backwards and forwards and you know you liaise with these kind of like entourage liaisons, there's like just it's all happening. And eventually the day arrives that the prince is arriving and we were quite pleased with ourselves because we were on top of all of the logistics. A special face cream had been flown in. And I remember the first three or four planes that landed were just entourage and luggage. And then eventually the prince was coming in to land, and Bronwyn said to me, my sister, she said, boy, you need to run down to the room.

最后件事是把冰镇毛巾放进房间。我抓起对讲机冲向套房，途中不断听到：'王子十分钟后到达'、'专机已降落，八分钟后到达'。打开套房先是客厅，穿过储物柜区域进入主卧再到浴室。这时我注意到浴室门虚掩着。

Final thing we need to do, and you need to put these cold face cloths in the room. So I grab my radio, I run down to the suite, and as I'm running down, the walkie talkie's going off, the prince is ten minutes out, ten minutes out. Prince has landed, he's now eight minutes out, eight minutes out. And I get down to the suite and I open it and it opens into a kind of living room and then you go through a kind of a lock area where there's a cupboard into the main bedroom and then into the bathroom. And as I get there I notice that the door is slightly adjacent.

所以我心想，一定是保洁人员忘了关门。我走进去，穿过卧室，当我来到浴室时，看到午餐正站在浴室柜台前，手里拿着一瓶木瓜护手霜。他看到我堵在门口，就开始猛灌护手霜，像喝饮料一样往嘴里倒。那是一种芒果木瓜味的护手霜。

So I think to myself it must just be that the housekeeping had left the door open. I walk through, I come through the bedroom and as I get to the bathroom, standing at the bathroom counter with a bottle of papaya hand lotion in his hand is lunch. And as he sees me and I block the doorway, he starts downing hand lotion. He starts chugging it into his mouth. It's like a mango papaya hand lotion.

他甚至在下巴上蹭出一道护手霜痕迹。随后他意识到自己被困在密闭空间里，便扔掉护手霜罐子，站在玻璃碎片上割伤了脚，然后全力冲向浴缸对面那面可以俯瞰河流的巨大玻璃窗。他撞上玻璃，双手拍下留下血手印，又反弹到天花板上，开始发出狒狒的叫声。同时他使出了狒狒的独门逃生绝技——大规模排便。接下来的几秒钟里，这只狒狒四处弹跳制造混乱，打翻了浴盐。

He even gets a streak of lotion across his top jowl. And then he realizes that he's in a confined space and he drops the jar of lotion, stands in the glass, cuts his feet a little bit and launches himself in a full dive across the bathroom at the giant panel of glass across the bath where you can look out onto the river. He smacks the glass, his hands come down, he puts a bloody handprint on it, he pushes back off the glass, he flies onto the ceiling, and now he starts to make baboon noises. And at the same time he starts to use the patented baboon technique for getting out of dangerous situations, is to massively release your bowels. And so for a few seconds this baboon bounces around causing absolute chaos, knocking over bath salts.

他站在水龙头上，双手流血，护手霜和粪便到处都是，还冲我吼叫。接着他转身朝我扑来。蒂姆，我记得自己发出了一声尖叫。我后仰躲避，他慢动作般从我身边飞过，在半空中转身与我四目相对，脸上带着野性的欢愉表情，下巴还沾着护手霜。他落在床上，带着血手印蹦跳着横穿床铺，又拉了一坨巨大的粪便，然后撕开前阳台门，像经济衰退中的股票经纪人那样纵身跳下。

He's standing on the faucet, his hands are bleeding, there's lotion, there's crap everywhere, he's barking at me. Then he turns and he comes at me. And Tim, I remember I let out a little scream. And I leaned back and he flew in slow motion past me and in mid air he turned and he looked at me as he went past, and he had like a look of like savage glee on his face and lotion like down across his jaw. He landed on the bed and he bounded across the bed with these bloody handprints, released another massive turd, and ripped the front veranda doors open and dived off the front veranda like a stockbroker in a recession.

整个

And the whole

过程中他

time he